This is the Mid Game spoiler discussion thread for Gotm20-Spain.

Again take a few moments to read this introduction carefully to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the new spoiler rules.

This is the second spoiler thread to support discussion of Gotm20-Spain. If possible, you should have already summarized your ancient age progress in a short report in the Early Discussion thread for this game.

For many players the game could end in this era.

Every player must pass two tests in order to be able to view or participate this spoiler thread. These two tests define a dividing line where knowledge and events prior to the line may be discussed but knowledge that you may have from later in the game may not be included.

For Gotm20-Spain:

you must have full map visibility of the entire world map plus contact with all 10 rivals (or their remains). AND
you must have discovered Magnetism and The Theory of Gravity (or already submitted your game) but you may not discuss any feature of the industrial age with respect to technologies, wonders, or resources. (Discussing or hinting about locations of Coal, Oil or Rubber will be cause to have to appear before the inquisition and be purified by pain.)

Information in this thread must be from BEFORE BOTH OF THESE EVENTS.

You may discuss continuations of Calvalry or Conquistador/Missionary warfare that may include encounters with riflemen defenders of you enemies but essentially this thread is intended to be a discussion of the Middle ages and nothing beyond that point in time.

We are again particularly interested in discussions of any encounters that you may have with other civilizations and how they may have advanced in technology and/or upgraded units into the offensive and defensive units that could be available in the middle ages.

Also help us to understand how and where you decided to place your Palace and/or Forbidden Palace to support the ending moves of your game.

What were your impressions of the behavior of the other Civilizations during this phase of the game? Try to touch on all the surviving civs and what you thought they were doing.

If you are playing the Conquest game, how did you use the Galleass unit and what if any effect did it have on your game?

There are several Easter Eggs that should have appeared for you during this phase of the game.

Have fun!! Again that's what this game is all about.

The middle ages of this game was one of the most successful/enjoyable Civ games I've ever had! Playing Ptw 1.14f (first game on it) at Conquest level.

Here we go:

The Zulus attacked me just after ancient age ended, I bribed a few others to attack them. They bribed everyone else. Continent has been at on/off war ever since. In the confusion I horseman rushed the French and took them out. Upgraded to knights during the campaign and had my first use of the entertaining MDI, mostly upgraded from warriors. Seized the Collosus and some wines. I've been at peace with everyone for some time, but they're all busy waging wars...

Around invention time 4th suicide galley survived two turns in ocean squares to meet the Japanese. Met the rest of that continent. Did not introduce everyone until navigation was discovered. The Iraqois were the only people to demand communications. They backed down.

Due to the trading lessons learned from this site, I managed to make a fortune. Buying as common tech on one continent, sell as monopoly on the other. At times over 1/3 of my economy was from other civs gpt. Built a large treasury and cash rushed improvements/upgrades and then started my own 100% research, while still making money :) Sold/traded most of those techs away for more stuff. Managed several wonders (Bachs, Sistenes, Smiths and Newtons) had an infrastructure building golden age.

Even post navigation, the Americans and Japanese lack Iron, the Iraqois lack horses.:D This means I'm hopefully going to have extra luxuries and a solid source of income for a while... Think the Japanese/Iraquois value these even more as they need them for their UU's.

Ended the medieval times as the tech/power/score leader. A position I would never have considered possible on a deity game... wonder if it will stay that way? The Indians, Americans, Aztecs and Japanese are fairly close in terms of tech. Everyone else behind them. Centuries of continual warfare has taken it's toll on the zulu. Their empire is very large, but they trail everyone by 5-6 techs...

The only thing I'm lacking is a forbidden palace. Normally I would have built one early on. But I havn't really needed the economic boost. Held off building it originally in case I found a decent sized/unoccupied 'new world'. Looking to seize more territory and leader rush it, so it can be a long way from my capital and yeild maximum number of cities benefit.

Just wish I'd given the open version a try. Although a lot of that confidence has come from this site/this GOTM.

I'm still alive (somehow) and it's been rather interesting.

After fending off the world from destroying me, I made pretty good friends with the Turks. The Indians were wiped out during the first World War by the Zulu and Celt. I was sad to see my friend go but I had the Turks on my side.

After about 7 Galleys, I made it over to the new world. Found Americans. I had seen there culture borders from a previous trip, but the galley sunk the next turn. So I bought the rest of the communications from Lincoln and then sold them off to the rest of the world. I should have sailed around and found the others since the other "Old World" powers didn't really feel like sailing across at that point.

I had my eye on the French for awhile and decided they must go. After 3 wars with them, I finally get far enough down to Paris. It falls and I rejoice. At 780 AD, France becomes no more.

I left the middle ages at 1200AD with World War II being in full swing. The Aztec decided to take on the mighty Zulu and actually gained a city in the old world. the Iroquois were at constant war with the Americans (did you do anything to help that Cracker?;) ) The Turks were reduced to a few cities and fearing that the Zulu would come running across their lands to get me, I made my defense zone which I'll show at the end of this post. Because of this line of guys, I was able to survive many Zulu attacks. I pays to have the Turks still alive.

I never really did use the gallass. The English just loved man-o-wars and were always bombarding my northern town. I took Dover from them and killed about 15 units. Then gained Dover back:mad: but I was able to get a great leader out of it who rushed the rest of the Forbidden Palace. (which is in Paris).

I'm still here and thankfully I am holding my own. I'm way behind in techs because no one will trade with me at all. I tried to give the Celt's all of my gold for 1 coin and they were all pissy about it.

My middle ages consisted of trying to build my infastructure and continuing to trade money and luxuries for tech.

This whole period consisted of continuous warfare on my continent. India was wiped out and the Celts reduced to just a few cities. Except for a brief war with the Ottomans I was able to stay out of war for almost the entire age. Towards the end of the middle ages I was in a brief war with France. I captured and torched one of ther cities on the inland sea where the jungle ended. I built my own city in the rubble. They made peace after that.

I don't know who found the "new world" first. The first I knew it had been discovered was when Japan contacted me. Soon after I was able to trade with all of the new world civs. I took advantage of the SR deprivation in the new world to get world maps, money and some tech. But I never even came close to the other civs in tech. Spain was the last civ to leave the middle ages.

:upyours:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif

[ptw] 1.21

The Middle ages were a blur :) ! I survived the onslaught of the barbs - lost all my gold and made it to the Middle ages unscathed.

My war with France was short lived capturing only 2 cities. But soon after I was able to make contact with my first suicide galley. It was my second galley, the first get eaten by squid :(.

I made contact with Japan, used my maps for tech trades and contact trades keeping both continents seperate. In the end I had a full map tech parity up through invention and gold coming in. The map is huge. I turned off my research completely and haven't built any libraries and don't intent to. Cash is king. I have slowly been building gold and can afford to buy anything from Japan, the clear tech leader and trade it around for gpt to everyone else.

Soon after conact was made the Zulu has demanded contacts with the Iroquios and I refused starting a war. I pulled in India and Celt for a few pennies and started moving my knights via a ROP with France. Took 3 cities and got a 4th as reperatations. All the while buying and selling Japan's tech. I got my firts GL from the Zulu war and used it to rush Bach's in my core. I don't want to worry about happiness on my continent.

Around the same time peace was made Japan had started on Magellen's (having Navigation) and I knew Contact was close. I traded what I could to get back to tech parity with the other continent. Japan was running away with tech and it was only 300 AD.

I traded up to Military Tradition and built up an army of Cavs to take out England. I still had reminant of deals with France and decided to let Celts and Zulu divide up the Indians. England was mine. I did pull the Celts and Zulu in for good measure and to avoid a dogpile. My Cavs were no match for the English cities capturing 5 in the first wave. I ran out of gas but did manage to get a conquistador victory and started my golden age. I did get one GL in a failed attempt to capture the London capital. England was down to 2 cities when peace was made. The GL rushed Smiths and further propelled my Golden Age aided economy. At its hight is was running 0 lux. and 0 Reseach pulling in +740 gpt. More than enough to pay my way up to Magnitism and ToE.

I was building cavs like crazy and waiting for the last of the French deals to expire. In the meantime the Celts cleared out the Indians and the other continent was about to explode. Nationalism came for Japan around the time I finally purchase ToE and he was ready to finaly expand his first taget The Aztecs.

The other civs:

France: Weak and about to be taken out by the Spanish

Zulu: Moderately strong, Large and spread out

Celts: Strong, laking Horses :). Powered by SunZu.

Japan: Science very strong, military moderate. Powered by my iron trades :lol:

America: Getting too big for his britches - lacks horse and iron

Aztecs: Moderate in tech and military for how long no one knows

Iroquios: Tech very weak-Trading outdated tech for gems.

England: Poor start lead to her becoming a 2CC at the era change.

Ottomans: Easily destroyed by zulu in the late Ancient age

India: Destroyed by 3 different wars by zulu and or celts strating in the Ancient age and continuing through the middle ages.

Who know what the future may bring? :hammer:

Hotrod

Aaaaahhh! I was the first to get to the new world but looks like I completely wasted it! My very first suicide galley made it across the waves and spotted both Japanese and American borders. I traded contact with France+ Lit for contact with Aztecs+tech with the Japanese and lit+France for contact with the Iroquois+another tech with Abe.
Next I went to the civs on my continent to see what I could get for my wm plus new contacts... end result is I caught up in tech and gained 400gold plus great relations with everyone else. I was feeling pretty smug until I read the posts in this thread... I hadn't realised the benefits of keeping the two continents apart until now!
So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

Playing conquest class btw.

Originally posted by mabellino
Aaaaahhh! I was the first to get to the new world but looks like I completely wasted it! My very first suicide galley made it across the waves and spotted both Japanese and American borders. I traded contact with France+ Lit for contact with Aztecs+tech with the Japanese and lit+France for contact with the Iroquois+another tech with Abe.
Next I went to the civs on my continent to see what I could get for my wm plus new contacts... end result is I caught up in tech and gained 400gold plus great relations with everyone else. I was feeling pretty smug until I read the posts in this thread... I hadn't realised the benefits of keeping the two continents apart until now!
So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

Playing conquest class btw.

By witholding contacts you can create a long and profitable period of trading. It would also give you the power to slow the tech pace down. I combined that with the practice of sponsoring warfare on my continent all with the aim of slowing the AI down until I had the ability to build armed forces of sufficient size and quality to seize my continent.

If you play it the other way, the rate of tech advance will go through the roof. This might be good if you are going for an early diplo or space race win. But you still need to expand for a good score so in this case it would have to be early expansion. Otherwise you'll run into riflemen early which makes for tough warfare.

It is quite possible to trade effectively while holding contacts. It just requires that you check each civ each turn and take advantage of your opportunities. This can be tiresome, but I did it and would just for the cash you can get for trading maps.

Before all is said and done we are going to see some spectacular conquests for the diety level.

Edit: To add further, since the New World had only 4 civs to the 7 in the Old, it was a forgone conclusion that they would be behind on tech until you allowed contacts. If you then go to Navigation on the fast track you can have a monopoly on their luxuries and be the sole source provider for iron, horses and later saltpeter.

At one point I was raking in over 700 gpt (mostly from trade as I had not expanded).

So quick question... should Ihave withheld contact with the new world for a while (at least till the Zulu demanded it.. whimper!) or was what I did to go from second to last in tech to parity better?

I was able to use my map to gain enough gold to allow me to buy my way into tech parity. I was actually getting gpt for my Maps. I held out until Japan started Magellen's before trading contact. It wasn't as great a windfall but allowed me to play both sides for gold. Japan was the scientific power and traded freely with Aztecs and Abe. I bought most techs at 3rd or 4th and sold them to the rest. Pulling a few 2frs. I had a few failed 40 turn gambits, democracy, Printing Press to name 2.

The Zulus demanded contact and that started a war.

[edit] This didn't happen in my game but I have seen it before. With a little luck both groups of civs, if they remain peaceful, can continue to research at a pretty fast rate each going up different paths. One towards Military Tradition the other towards Banking/econ. This is the best possible outcome. By buying 1 you can trade for the others and get many 2frs playing back and forth until at least Astronomy if not Navigation.

Originally posted by hotrod0823

I was able to use my map to gain enough gold to allow me to buy my way into tech parity. I was actually getting gpt for my Maps. I held out until Japan started Magellen's before trading contact.

I considered doing that... but wondered if the AI would be smart enough to send suicide boats through the channel I'd made. Guess, from your experience I was crediting it with something it just couldn't do. Does it not use suicide galleys?

Didn't sell my maps until after navigation, along with the contacts, at which point they were worth a lot. However, managed to make a killing/keep everyone broke acting as a tech middle man in the meantime, so didn't make much of a difference.

I have never ever seen an AI suicide galley. I used my maps mostly because I had no gold at the time and could'nt use my luxuries and resources until navigation came in.

Surprisingly though even after Japan had my full map he still payed me gpt to update it :confused:!

1.29f conquest

first attempt at a GoTM, first attempt at Deity, I've never played above Monarch, and I have trouble on that level.

I didn't keep any timelines, so not much I can tell you. Only thing I remember is, when I was researching my 2nd tech in the Middle ages, the other civs went industrial. You know what that does to your moral when you see the city icons switch to industrial? :)
Basically, I could never get other civs to trade techs with me, which is normal. I had contact with the new world, but that wasn't from my contact so I got no help out of that.
I think the Ottomans had their eyes on me early, because they went to war with France and eventually wiped them out, which, of course, moved their borders to meet with mine in the south. Then after some time, they decided to go after me, and there was nothing I could do about it. They wiped me out in 1365 ad.

I just want to know if the names on the tiles are for anything, or just there for looks?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif
[civ3]

A tale of woe, and lost opportunities

530BC
Have iron, France do not, war soon.

510BC
:confused: Culture swap city to Keltoi, no where near their land, close to my palace, our culture is close. 2 turns later I lost another

290BC
Capture Marsaille from French to make up for the Keltoi issue

But now they come at me with Swords, must be trading for it, nobody else will join the war with me.

210BC
Paid the world to get Keltoi in alliance against France, Keltoi then bring in India too, so I think it was worth it

10BC
Keltoi take Grenoble after I weakened it typically, but I get GL Sertorius, now where to put that FP
Also Avignon taken by me.

90AD
Whole Continent now at war with France :-)

120AD Circa?
Keltoi set peace with France (before the end of our alliance), I do the same as I'm under pressure to keep fighting them. Get everything they own and one City for their impudence.

Over the next 100 years or so India makes in-roads into France. Too late I realise that I can make some hay and join in too, but only end up helping India take all their cities

450AD
Ottoman and Keltoi declare war against India, this is my chance to sneak some cities, I'll wait a turn or two

500AD
Got Leo's, still waiting for Keltoi to get to India territory before I join in

580AD
Fighting India, Keltoi barely helping keep sending their troops away and then back.
Found that Ottoman had other communications, bought cheaply and that gave me lots of other trades. I didn't make a serious effort to go over there and I know I should have

Here is the world ranking, although 7th not that many points 4th.

Iroguois 1682, Japan 1533, India 1495, Keltoi 1422, America 1409, Ottoman 1404, Spain 1308,
Aztec 1168, England 997, Zulu 728, France 645

660AD
Keltoi take a couple of India cities, I attacked them both, lost troops tried to time it right but always Keltoi just made the final blow

860AD
Lost another city to Keltoi due to Culture, sure they have better culture but these cities were double the distance from their capital to mine, I had four defenders and I had the local culture on my side?????????????????????????????

960AD
Back to war with India, I was there at the end with my Missionary hoping to get a kill, but all I could see werer tough defenders. Keltoi destroyed India, at least I go up one in the rankings

1060AD
Keltoi declare war on me, as I'm so far behind on tech, they have cavalry I have muskets, I think I'm in trouble.
We get a Golden age as they leave a weak unit open for my Missionary
All my continent join me in the fight on my side :-)

Iroguois 2053, Japan 2014, Otto 1957, Keltoi 1877, Spain 1733, America 1718 etc.

1110AD
Fight going well, with help of my friends, holding my own so far.
City near Ottoman pledged to them, but they refused !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1120AD
Left a weakly defended city in Cavalry range (mistake), had an elite Musket with 2 hits left, Cavarly dies with no loss, and Cordoba GL appears. Problem is I'm too far behind on Tech to use it on a Wonder. Nobody will trade with me (too many wars?)

1200AD
Now at peace with all. Took some Keltoi cities back (three of them). Both them and Ottoman are furious with us, I'm really concerned about Ottoman with the Dragoon.

1240AD
At last entered Industrial age, 10 turns from Nationalism, and I might have a chance of defending against those dragoons when they come.

Otto 2147, Japan 2144, Iroquois 1973 (destroyed), Keltoi 1916, Spain 1824, America 1823
So I should be fourth soon, America is catching after destroying Iroquois.

1260AD
Golden Age over.
Japan declare war on Otto, and England forced to join in. Think I might just watch this one.

1410AD
England and Keltoi go to war, I think I need to use this to take a couple of Ketoi cities.

End up taking one Keltoi city and then having to sue for peace. Clearly no way to win this game, and Otto is unlikely to accept my impudence for long

Field of dreams it ain't.

Zulu owns half the old world continent and has (apparently) already teched into the Industrial age - and, of course, shared his advances with the 'big 3' leaving the rest of us fighting for scraps.

India and Celt long since dead. Queenie E is down to 3 cities and Otto is sucking with 5.

Japan, Aztec, and Iriqois sharing half the new world between them.

America owns half the new world - Zulu/America #1 and #2 in the ranking.

razed 2 French cities, sued for peace and got some tech - thought I was close to parity until zulu tanks and bombers showed up on my doorstep.... oops.

Oh well. Own about 1/4 of my continent, #4 in the points. I guess I can't complain as this is my first GOTM and my first attempt at Diety level. Got VERY lucky early on finding the choke points to the NE.

I have a feeling Shaka is about to reign holy terror on us backwards Spaniards. I think I waited to long to engage in combat with the Joan - got too far behind on techs and just can't catch up.

Pulling in 400+ gpt but just can't enough together to buy my way out of this tech hole. :king:

Kudos to all those who are playing their first GOTM and/or first diety game and posting here! Its good to have you in the community. Fear not, even the best of us struggled with diety at first. You have great discoveries to make! One of which is that the only thing that separates you from the people at the top of the charts is experience.

And kudos for Cracker and the staff for creating a great environment for players on all levels.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by hotrod0823
I have never ever seen an AI suicide galley. I used my maps mostly because I had no gold at the time and could'nt use my luxuries and resources until navigation came in.

Surprisingly though even after Japan had my full map he still payed me gpt to update it :confused:!

Guess Japan must like seeing those extra few squares of ocean quite a lot! :crazyeye: Still, money is money!

I was lucky enough to get the situation you described, both continents researching different techs... very profitable.

What suprised me was that I found India a scientific powerhouse (along with Japan/America). This was despite the fact that they were only average sized and spent most of the medieval times at war with their bigger neighbours the Zulu... Don't think I've seen that before. Wondering if they got an early tech lead and coasted on payments from the others?

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Kudos to all those who are playing their first GOTM and/or first diety game and posting here! Its good to have you in the community. Fear not, even the best of us struggled with diety at first. You have great discoveries to make! One of which is that the only thing that separates you from the people at the top of the charts is experience.

And kudos for Cracker and the staff for creating a great environment for players on all levels.

:thumbsup:

This is also my first Diety game. I played conquest. If it wasn't a GOTM, I would never being playing at that level. I have enough trouble playing Monarch on random maps! If it wasn't for Cracker giving us a decent start and the conquest bonuses, I would have been doomed...

I'm with you... pushing my skill level at the monarch level - I would never have posted a diety game if it were not a GOTM.

My kudos also to cracker and the gang. Great work...

R6

ltcoljt, that was a highly entertaining account of your medieval times. Your experience is precisely why I don't use suicide galleys. I can't handle entrusting part of my game to luck, and then watching it go sour. Ironically, in the end your investment turned out to be profitable, and of course dramatic. But it's not for me. On a different topic, I don't know how many players warred significantly in the ancient era, as we were probably better off expanding peacefully. And you certainly made up for your late start with that nasty late-era rush.

R6, if you're pulling in 400gpt in the Middle Ages, you will have your day in the sun. Just hang in there, and look for those trading opportunities when two different techs are available from two different civs.

Southpaw, i think the names are just there for looks.

OPEN division, http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f

Well, I tried. I thought I started out well and actually was in the game until about 1/2 way thought the Middle Ages. Thats when I stopped being able to trade for techs. I was trading furs for teachs at the beginning and the went to gpt for awhile...and then nothing. I wasn't at war with anyone and hadn't broken any agreements, so it must have been my relative low power.

I started a series of border engagements, picking on those civs as weak as or weaker then me in the points, usually taking 2-3 cities and holding them until the counter attack, then making peace. But I could usually only get 1 tech in the process. Even after taking India down to 2 cities, they only would give me two useless dead end techs, not the tothers which i wanted badly. I ended up rushin lib, univ, banks and whatever else in order to do 4-5 turn research, I knew I was in trouble when I made a ROP with France to get at the Ottomans, and my Calvary was passing French Armor on thier way up north to get the Celts.

I did learn a lesson that made me want to throw my computer across the room. My second ship died at sea with the culture border in sight and as I moaned and groaned about it, I forgot to check the F4 screen. I actually had made contact, and they had traded it around the 2nd island. None of them contacted me, but when I finally did, I was able to pull a few techs closer by keeping them apart for awhile. I think my other mistake was trading contact early to get Knights, which I needed to beat off the Celts. As soon As I did that, I lost whatever chance I had in staying near the middle of the tech race.

So, now I plan on trudging to the bitter end....

Zulu and France are the cream of the crop, the other island keeps on declaring war, but never attacing anyone. I do believe that the two islands will never actually attack each other.

I was able to use Moonsingers UU army for a little bit, and while I was able to pillage, the cost of building the UU army vs the need for calavary made it a very debatable action.

Second GOTM, first Deity attempt, all in all I'm quite happy that I made it this far.

As I confessed in spoiler1 I'm not qualified for this GOTM, but I did played and like to share with others I hope it won't be a problem as long as I obey the rule of the thread.

Id did not keep a timeline after 1000BC. But here are some interesting facts:

DISCOVER the new world.
I'm not much a risk taker, so I did not use suicide boat. In stead I hope to rush to Magenetism as soon as I can. But I did not make it the 1st both time. In my first time I can see it's either Japan or Ottoman used suicide boat, after map exchanging. Fine. The second time, after buying contact for all civs, and get all maps I found out the two world are still isolated to each other! What the matter? Then I found some thing strange in the map. A pink area on northeast of the old world! I though it was a British city CF to Iroquis, but after carefully study, it was not. Just Iroquis made it to old world this time.

Both of the time the new world is just out of ancient time. The old world is just a little leading.

Tech Path: I chosed to go Feudalism then exchange it for monotheism from Ottoman or whoever get it as well.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Open.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f

Here's a link to my Spoiler1 post where I had entered the Middle ages in 925BC:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1029980#post1029980

I have little in the way of notes for a number of turns, but I was starting to lay plans for a Palace jump. It seemed to work so well for some in GOTM18 that I decided to try it. Since I'm not planning on starting any wars, I need to do it inside my space. I was fortuante enough to get almost the entire northwest corner of this continent, so I'm aiming for a spot on the east side, far enough from the water to build a few coastal cities. FP is being built in Barcelona which is next to the 2 cows.

690BC Buy Republic from India for 355g and 29gpt, and switch at end of turn.

570BC FP done in Barcelona, will jump palace eastwards next turn. Found Valladolid on east coast.

550BC Time for palace jump to Jaen. Checking numbers (Thanks here to DaveMcW!):

Jaen 6 citizens + 12/3 cities = 10
Barcelona 5 citizens + 11/3 cities = 8 2/3

Disband Madrid, palace jumps to Jaen. Found Palma just west of old Madrid. I now have a ring around Barcelona and Jaen, both sharing one city in the center.

390BC Zulu makes first demand (38g and territory). I gladly accept (almost all warrior army)

350BC Finally Celts get something I can trade Republic for. Trade Republic, world and 35g for Feudalism.

310BC Shaka has 2 Impis poised to attack. I ask him to leave and he SAYS he will, but I don't trust him. I decide to buy Monotheism from him for 51gpt and we'll see what happens. If he attacks I get it for free. After trade he is polite, as is everyone else but England. They are still in despotism. Build embassy in India, just in case.

290BC Yikes, Zulu stack coming my way, 4 swords, an archer and an Impi. Start rushing some barracks and upgrades.

270BC And even more (I'm about to get slaughtered :() I buy Chivalry and World from Zulu for 55gpt since it's plain they are about to attack me. Ask them to leave or declare war. Of course they declare war, I get my money back, and now for some alliances. Give France World and 23gpt for MA. Give India World, 10gpt for MA. Give Celts world and 10gpt for MA. Built embassy in England, gave Republic for MA, world, 6g. Build embassy with Ottomans, give monotheism for MA, world, 9g.

250BC Zulu starts retreating and attacking France. Ack, discover I didn't do the India deal, and now it cost more :P Trade world and 20gpt for Indian MA. NOW everyone on this continent is at war with Zulu. My galley (4th one I think?) is one turn from contact with new world. Crossing fingers. And darnit, France got Engineering. I have ten turns left :/ Nobody else has it so Zulu won't yet unless they researched it themselves. Hopefully they have their hands full now.

230BC Woohoo! Columbus discovers America. Trade Monotheism for Iroquois, Aztecs, Japan, Monarchy, World, 77g. I have the whole world map now, and all contacts. America needs Chivalry, the rest need mono, feud, republic, and monarchy. Sell Monarchy to Japan for 339g and world map. Iroquois and Aztecs don't have anything worth trading. So for now I will keep both sides "in the dark" about each other and their maps. Navigation is a ways off.

170BC Decide I'm going to speed up science a bit, gift Republic, mono, and Feud to Iroquois and Aztecs and sell Chivalry to America for 57gpt + 90g. Also give mono to Japan. Hopefully they will start researching while we are at war over here. I've only got 6 more turns for Engineering, no point in buying it now. Trade Chivalry to Ottomans for world, bit o' gold and 2 workers.

50BC So far I've only lost a couple units to Zulu, they are half-heartedly attacking and retreating. I think I will have no problems with them, especially now that I've got a bunch of knights and maces running around. I've switched back to librarys to bump up the tech pace. About to sell my world map, but still keeping contacts to myself for now. Buy Theology from France for Incense, world, and 30gpt. Sell Theology to America for World, 80g, 21gpt. Finished Engineering finally, so start Invention (expect India and France going for Education to kill the GL that Zulu has). At 100% I will have it in 9 turns. It's costing me 85gpt in deficit, but as long as the Zulu stay away I'll be ok. About that time I will be ending my MAs and making peace.

30BC One library finishes, and drops Invention to 6 turns. Ah, I knew that drop was too much. Actually India and France both have invention, so I picked wrong it seems. Switch to Printing Press, quicker and I should be able to trade it. Oh and Zulu are yo-yoing (is that a word?) Heh, even America has invention. Decide its time to cash in on contacts. Sell all overseas contacts to France for Invention and 14gpt, and to India for 573g and 2gpt.

90AD War almost over. Finish Press, trade for Education, World, 121g from India. Sell Press for 30g + 26gpt from America. Sell Press to Celts for 11gpt. Trade Education and Press for Gunpowder, 4g, world from France.

150AD Now that MAs are over, I make peace with Zulu. I am at tech parity with the world, 6 turns to banking. Need more luxes.

250AD Woohoo! First to Banking. Trade to Indians for Astronomy, world, 8g, 44gpt. Sell to America for world and 60gpt.

260AD Arg, shoulda waited one more turn to trade, America just got Chemistry and India got Music Theory. Going to rush to Democracy (8 turns at 100%). Have to deal with happiness manually.

290AD Trade Banking, furs, 19gpt for Chemistry from Zulu.

310AD Blah, America has Democracy, we still have 3 turns to go. America wants 475g and 67gpt. Subtracting my cost to finish in 3 turns, means it would cost me 678g+. Of course that's 3 turns sooner I can be a Democracy, and I can start a new tech immediately. Navigation seems to be a good one to go for so I can trade for luxes overseas. Make trade. India can only afford 39gpt, so I think I'll sit on it for a bit and hope they give me something to trade for soon. Will switch to Democracy at the end of the turn. Ah, just realized I should have kept my cash and done straight gpt with America. Now I've limited my science spending :/. Iroquois have gems, and both Aztecs and Japan have spices and silks. So I'll go for Navigation. I have a lot of techs that they all need to trade for luxes.

320AD ARGH! India got Economics and traded for Democracy already! :P Well America and India are in Anarchy, India will be a Democracy on next turn. I have 7 to go for Navigation, would like to drop to 6, may have to sell some things cheap so I can deficit spend to drop it.

360AD Blah, Zulu must have discovered Navigation. Lots of AI trades, America, France, India, Zulu all have tech parity. I'm down Navigation, Economics, Music Theory. All not need for advance, but Navigation is a biggie for the lux trades. I'm only one turn from navigation at a cost of 233 gold. Or I can buy it for 7gpt and world from France or a total of 140g, and I can get the luxes now. Make trade. Trade Education for gems from Iroquois. Trade Education for spices from Aztecs. Trade Iron for Silks, world, 2g from Japan. Wines are all I'm missing, and nobody has them available. Start Metallurgy. Suddenly realize I have horses and furs for America, trade them for world + 46gpt. Can't research at 100%, so settle for Metallurgy in 7 turns at 80%.

420AD Great! Beat the world to Metallurgy, trade to America for Physics, world, 71gpt. Ok, so America and India have had Physics for a couple turns, I'll assume they were going for ToG or Magnetism. I don't trade Metallurgy to India for now, they dont't have much to pay me. On that assumption I'll got for MT, and hopefully they took separate paths and I can get both. We'll cross our fingers. I'm 6 turns at 100% sci. (slight deficit).

440AD India just finished Metallurgy Which buys me some time, down to 4 turns left for military tradition. My palace prebuild MIGHT net me Newtons if I'm lucky.

470AD Alrighty then! India and America just entered the Industrial Age, so both ToG and Magnetisim are available. I'm two turns from Military Tradition, lets hope I get it first. I've got a few Universities coming on line soon, hopefully I can get to TOE before anyone else.

480AD Trade Military Tradition and 10gpt for Magnetism AND Theory of Gravity from India, and enter the Industrial Age . Sell MT to America for 73gpt and 17g. Trade Magnetism to Zulu for Free Artistry (to give me an extra wonder outlet), 12g and 22gpt. Sell Democracy to England for world, 6g, 9gpt.


At this point I'm doing very well keeping up in tech, and tech is zipping along. America is the powerhouse, India seems to be doing better than Zulu now (Zulu was IT through the Ancient Ages). I'm in 3rd on the score list and still climbing. My goal is Diplomacy as fast as I can get it. I've been in only one war, and I was the defender. I've had France and the Celts gracious or polite and most of the rest of the world is polite. Zulu is furious but I'm not worried about them anymore. I've been building and upgrading my military, and while weak compared to them, they are far away, and I know I can just dogpile them again if I need to. I've only taken one city the whole game and that was a size one city that Zulu took from France. Compared to my first last deity game (a loss in GOTM14) I think I'm doing quite well.

This pic is the closest I have to this time. It shows my Palace and FP placement.

http://users.rcn.com/rfarver/civ3/GOTM20_580AD.jpg

My first report: Ancient era (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1036277#post1036277)

I left off my last report having entered the middle ages having the Pyramids and Great Library. When I got Monarchy from the Great Libary, I changed what I was building (marketplace) to the Hanging Gardens (due in 11 turns), my city was producing 24 shields (23 uncorrupt)/turn.

But at 590 BC, France completes the Hanging Gardens when I had only 4 turns left :(. But by this time I got Fuedalism from Great Library, so I switched to Sun Tzu's. Then later I got theology, so I switched to the Sistine Chapel and completed it at 190 BC.
Rushed cathedral at 170 BC, then a university at 110 BC. (Great Library was obsolete at 230 BC).

I was behind in techs and there were still many wonder cascades going (Sun Tzu's wasn't built yet, and others had started on Leo's, then Magellan's, etc. ), and I just didn't have the commerce to buy techs fast enough, and knowing only half the world.
Printing press, which I started on with 1 scientist was known well before I got done researching it.
By the time the two continents had contact with each other, there was no hope for me.
So I sat around hitting 'end turn'. I had absolutely no resources to trade anyone (I didn't get out of the middle ages until the AI was ready to launch their spaceship, and I only got 1 industrial age tech). I could buy 2 luxuries for 50 gold, so that kept my people happy enough. I lost my incense to French culture very early in the game.

Built only 2 exploring warriors, then later disbanded them and built 2 regular spearman, which was my entire military throughout the whole game. I had the AI demand tribute a few times, but not much, and when they did, it was like only 17 gold or so. Had most civs gracious with me for most of the game. India had well over 20,000 gold at one point, and I caught him 3 times trying to plant a spy in my capital.

I would have hit 20k culture victory in 1958 AD (62 culture/turn), but someone else won at around the 1600's.

1.29 Open

The opening (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55181&pagenumber=2) positioned me with 16 cities and tech parity, except for the Ottomans’ monotheism. While researching republic, I settled three more cities in the N and NW, filling up my contiguous territory. For almost 500 years, I built temples, garrisons and workers, and prebuilt a happiness wonder in Valencia. Two southern cities with barracks pumped out warriors and then swordsmen. By 690 BC, most other civs had also researched monotheism, and monarchy as well. I was comfortable lagging by this much, because the continent was remarkably balanced in size, and I had only eleven more turns to go to research republic.

SPAIN VS. EUROPE (690BC - 30BC)

My ideal core borders were the jungle in the south and the strait in the north. The French had Marseilles north of that line, as well as two cities in the rocky NW; the English had Oxford in the NE, where I wanted to build my FP, and Liverpool in the northern part of the strait; the Kelts had Verulanium on the southern part of the strait.

I decided to strike south of Marseilles at Besancon, where the French had their only horse resource. From there, my invading force would roll back and take Marseilles. In the meantime, there would be a holding action to the east near Avignon. The ideal war would be quick, gain me monotheism, and end France’s ability to build mounted units – making them easy pickings in a later war.

In 690BC, I had 10 swordsmen and 22 warriors, of which a few were vets that I was upgrading, one turn at a time. (I had made a decision to try to build no defensive units at least until infantry.) I allocated a few swords for defense in the SE and NE, and hit Besancon. It fell one turn later… at which point France recruited England and the Keltoi in an alliance against Spain.

So much for a quick war. I considered making alliances with India and the Ottomans, but didn’t want to spend the money. It didn’t hurt that the Kelts had yet to connect their iron. My southern swords prepared to turn the cleared jungle between Besancon and Guecho into a killing ground for the counterattacking French, while my fresh swords trekked north toward France’s allies.

I held off the French mixed-unit counterattack, and took isolated Marseilles in 610BC. In the north, my units barely held on to Donostia against allied archers and warriors, and finally an elite sword took the rich city of Oxford in 490BC. Renamed Gernika, it was earmarked for our FP. (this was built soon after with a leader.) England paid 42g for peace two turns later.

This made it much easier for my few swords to hold off the Kelts, while my main force in the south targeted a new prize: Lyons, down the coast from Besancon, with the newly completed Hanging Gardens. Lyons fell in 410BC, Avignon to the east one turn later, and the French coughed up monotheism and 19g for peace.

I was briefly even in tech, had the HG, and was the largest civilization on the globe. Having waited to change government while enagaged in a two-front war, I now switched to republic in 370BC. More swords headed north toward Verulanium, where they finally encountered a few of the mythical Gallic Swordsmen in battle (210BC). The Spanish swordsmen held their own on favorable ground, and Verulanium fell in 90BC. The Kelts finally sued for peace in 30BC, giving up feudalism for 70g. Spain was now first in all the major demographics.

Spain vs Europe (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/690BC2.jpg)

BORDER WARS

Liverpool still remained on the northernmost strait, and I declared war to seal off the straits for all time in 210 AD. Two turns later, the Zulu slipped a couple of units across the southern border, and declared war. (This led to the rushing of my one defensive unit, a pikeman.) My units garrisoning the HG in Lyons took care of the African invaders, and Liverpool fell in 250 AD, with the added bonus of a second Leader. England exchanged theology for 21gpt and peace in 280AD. The next turn I allied cheaply with France against the Zulu, effectively sealing my border with Zululand. (A formal peace treaty wasn’t signed for another 200 years, in 490AD. More on why then below.)

THE PURSUIT OF TECH

Despite these military successes, Spain still planned to dominate the globe economically, and eventually triumph diplomatically or by launching a spaceship. Cheap temples, four luxuries and the HG will keep a medieval populace happy, and I focused on building first markets and then libraries. The FP in Gernika was perfectly placed for my current borders. These improvements and the sale of my excess luxuries soon led to a healthy income.

With the absence of war, except those started by me, the continent researched at a fast clip. It helped that all of the civs were roughly equal in size, with France understandably being the smallest.

The Ottomans and India took the lead, with England a hair behind. France and the Kelts were slightly limited by their size, and only the Zulus fell behind.

I made my first peacetime moves to acquire techs in 290AD, picking up education, banking and astronomy for 140g, 100gpt and horses. Having missed the Chapel, I now researched Music Theory instead of navigation, at a rate which would time perfectly with my longterm prebuild.

What I hadn’t done is send galleys out to explore, and by now I was the only civ not to have contact with the New World. All were behind our continent, with Japan very close and the Aztecs lagging badly, as well as being the smallest. What did I lose by not meeting them earlier? A shot at monarchy and republic earlier – otherwise, there wouldn’t have been a significant gold inflow that early from the New World.

In 400AD, I made a major series of trades. The net result was an outlay of the just-researched Music theory, iron, furs 40g + 30 gpt for contact with the four other civs, a wm, navigation, gunpowder, chivalry, silk, spices, wines, and dyes. The next turn I built Bach’s. Spain was one happy country.

Economics was the next research target, as the Leader I had in reserve was earmarked for Smith’s. In 490AD the first Spanish Missionary burnt a Zulu to cinders, after which we agreed to peace, and launched a GA. Combined with the rising banks and universities, our gold and research exploded. In 510 I traded the French economics for chemistry, and started max researching chemistry (6 turns). Smith’s was built the next turn. In 560 I traded 1556g + 13gpt for MT, physics and democracy, with the ToG due in 5 turns. In 610AD I gave India 744g and 54gpt for magnetism, and entered the industrial age, tied with India, England and the Otomans for the tech lead, still the most powerful civ, and with enough income to stay that way.

So even though I've never won a random map Diety game, I thought I'd give this GOTM a try because I felt sure that it would be set up so that we had a decent starting spot with room to expand. I was right about that, but even after a good start for me I still got trounced by the Ottomans.

In my game the Ottomans were huge. They were researching techs so fast, then selling them off at monopoly rates (which the other AIs will gladly pay). They had 25,000 gold half way into the age. It wasn't long before they sent about 3 stacks of Siphai doom my way, and I didn't have rifleman yet. There's not much one can do in this position, except to not get into this position in the first place! ;) I just retired rather than watch my empire beaten down.

What do you experts do when a scientific civ gets the lead and starts to pull away like that? They had so much cash they just bought off any attempts at a dog-pile. There was no way that I could think of to keep them from reaching Military Tradition before I wanted them to.

I'm really jealous of those games where the Zulus were the leaders. I think I would have had a fighting chance in that situation...

Originally posted by TC3
What do you experts do when a scientific civ gets the lead and starts to pull away like that?

I'm not an expert, and it might happen to me yet. (This will be the first deity game I've played to the end.) But I think you want to find a way to soak up the extra cash from the other civs. If the other civs don't have any extra cash or income, then the leader can't get richer by trading with them.

Once you have the opponents down to no cash-on-hand, you can check if they are willing to pay for deals in gpt: offer them 1000 gold for 1 gpt, and see if they say yes or no. If they do have gpt to spend, try to extract it from them before they make deals with the leader.

But I think you want to find a way to soak up the extra cash from the other civs. If the other civs don't have any extra cash or income, then the leader can't get richer by trading with them.

I think this is pretty sound advice. I failed to mention that my reputation was trashed early on because of a very savvy move by the Ottomans. I traded one of my irons to the Celts for a ton of gpt and a tech, and then two turns later the Ottomans pillaged the trade route and from then on everyone wouldn't do gpt deals with me.

I think that is the number one thing I got out of this GOTM. On Deity you really need to be careful with your reputation. If you have to pay lump sum amounts for techs then you are going to probably fall a good ways behind unless you are in a dominant position to begin with.

[Edit to add a few examples of subtle things that are risky reputation-wise. These things both happened in my game and I'm now wiser for it.]

- Try to avoid 20 turn deals with civs that are badly losing an on-going war. There's a good chance you will get branded as the treaty-breaker as collateral damage.

- When you go to war or can tell you are about to be attacked, then you should make preparations to defend luxuries and resources that are involved in current deals. All it takes is for one horse to come out of the fog and pillage a crucial bordertown resource, and then you are in trouble.

Bamspeedy, how could you have won this game, with the benefit of hindsight? Well, let's say hindsight and a few breaks. It seems to me that the biggest problem in deity is the runaway AI civ, and this would only be magnified in an OCC game.

Originally posted by Txurce
Bamspeedy, how could you have won this game, with the benefit of hindsight? Well, let's say hindsight and a few breaks. It seems to me that the biggest problem in deity is the runaway AI civ, and this would only be magnified in an OCC game.

Well, you'd think that my next door neighbors would become the runaway civs since they have all that extra room to expand, but that just isn't the case. Zulu was the runaway civ at the start, but later on it was India. Iroquois eventually conquered their whole continent.

From settling at the place that I did, I would need a lot more luck, looking at it in hindsight (slow the tech pace more, and use the colleseum as a pre-build for the Hanging Gardens, if I knew what time I would get Monarchy from the great Library). Staying in the tech race and slowing it enough to allow you just enough early wonders to get a 20k culture victory in the 1800's, and hope and pray that the AI falls apart in the industrial age (like they usually do with wars amongst each other) and they don't win by the time 20k kicks in. The AI is terribly slow at building spaceship parts, and they never did hold a UN vote in my game.

Gotm7, which was 'old-shool deity' where the tech pace was so much faster than current civ3, the AI didn't win until around 1850 A.D. or so in my game when they finally destroyed my starting settler who never did build a city :eek:

Settling at a location with more resources would allow you to trade your way to tech parity and then try to get the super science city wonders. Sell your only iron, or only horse resource, sell your luxuries for lots of techs, then buy back some for very cheap prices. Since your civ is so small, the AI doesn't think you get much benefit from them, so won't charge you much. You probably wouldn't be able to get both Pyramids and Great Library, but you would want Great Library if you can get it. Then win by diplo by building the UN.

well, not sure if this belongs here or not, but I give up on this game. I've never done a Diety before or a GOTM. I have no idea how the other civs can just be so angry at me all the time. Then they just come out of no where with hundreds of units. So i'm done with this GOTM. I'll submit my QSC since I was doing decent at that time. Perhaps I'm just not ready for this difficulty

Originally posted by Dislak
... I have no idea how the other civs can just be so angry at me all the time. Then they just come out of no where with hundreds of units ...
Dislak : I found that Bamspeedy's excellent article "AI Attitude Exposed" in the War Academy very useful, giving insights into why AI attitudes change. For example, I did not know what the "favourite / shunned" government settings for civs did until I read it. Then I saw the effect of this in practice in this game when Brennus quickly went from Gracious to Annoyed and all I did was change from Despotism to Republic.

I found the tips in his article helped me in this game - for example I gave away some contacts, techs & maps to other civs, got them all Gracious with me, and so far have not been attacked by anyone. I am sort of aiming for a diplomatic win so I am investing early in cultivating good attitudes.

Dislak,

Remember to try and get your game to a conclusion and submit it for the record because in the long run, every game that you chalk into the record book will begin to accumulate participation credits and global ranking points for you. It may not sound like much to you at this point but I can speak from personal perspective that one of the things that I miss each month is the honor of seeing my name in the list of players who submitted games even if I mighte be just in the middle of the pack.

When you get to the point where you have submitted two games but you really wish you had submitted three games even if the first game was a loss, then it will already have passed the submission date.

It also helps to submit these more difficulty game even if they are losses because it keeps the game in perspective. As the games get more difficult you are still expected to play like you know what you are doing and to be able to enjoy some of the subtle beauty of the things that they game can do. There is great honor in playing a good game at a tougher level and being able to say that you gained some skills out of the process that will let you have more fun in the game regardless of which level you end up playing on.

Dislak,

I was in your exact position back when I played my first game of the month. It was GOTM14, Bablyon on Deity level. I got hammered by the mighty Persians. I was still new to this forum and only knew how to play based on what I had figured out for myself. The wealth of information that I've gathereed here led me to wins in every GOTM since (including 2 Emperor) and things are looking real good for this month, my second full Deity game. I like being able to look back at the recorded stats here and see the improvement.

All I can say now is I hope you will take cracker's advice and finish your game, even if it does lead to a loss, and submit it. You might thank yourself later.

In my previous post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1029480#post1029480), the Spanish were involved in a continent wide war. I eventually made peace with India and Zululand after honoring my alliances, but remained at war with the Ottomans. France backed out of their alliance against the Ottomans, so I did a mini upgrade (6 warrior->swordmen) and launched an attack in 630 BC with a mixture of horsemen and swordmen. Signing an alliance with India, I committed to 20 turns of warfare againt entrenched French pikemen. Not surprisingly, this war was largely a failure, and I made peace with France in 230 BC for a discount on Engineering having only taken 2 small cities.

In addition to the peace treaty, I also signed an alliance with France against the Ottomans for 15gpt which wiped out numerous Turkish units travelling through French territory to attack me. Planning to hit France again in 20 turns, I rushed to make progress against the Ottomans in a limited timespan. Chivalry became available, but I was only able to upgrade 5 horsemen due to lack of funds, and the force which moved through French territory consisted of 5 knights and 8 horsemen (3 elites). When the FP completed in 150 BC (handbuilt), my income became large enough to support more upgrades, but my horsemen were out of range in Ottoman territory. Nonetheless, the mixed group of units were able to press on to Sogut with the help of the French diversion and capture the city containing Sun Szu and Pyramids.

The French and Indians had continued the war I instigated with the earlier alliance, and countless war elephant and Frankish axemen died at each other's hands. Therefore, when I cancelled the alliance and re-declared war on France in 130 AD, they were much weaker than they had been 20 turns before. With the aid of Zululand, I attacked France from the North, and from the South out of former Ottoman lands. The Ottomans were extinguished in 340 AD, and the French followed their fate in 460 AD finally ending the wars started when I refused Ottoman tribute in 1100 BC.

500 AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM20_500ADtact.jpg
The war with France had resulted in the capture of the Hanging Gardens and Leonardo's Workshop, and I continued to build more knights in anticipation of the conquest of Zululand. The lull in fighting, and the extinction of the giant squid allowed me to finally send suicide caravels over to the new world, one of which reached the second continent in 500 AD. My monopoly on contact with the new world lasted exactly 4 turns at which time Navigation was discovered by the other civs, but trading between the continents allowed me to completely catch up in technology including Military tradition. In 550 AD the Zulu declared war rather than remove a tresspassing Impi, and a Spanish Missionary torched the offending unit starting a Golden Age. http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM20_550ADtact.jpg
Unfortunately, the war cut off my trading rout with India which damaged my trading reputation, but I was still able to buy an alliance with India against Zululand. 20 cavalry, which were recently upgraded from knights, destroyed a vast army of obsolete Zulu units at the captured French town of Cartes, then proceeded to knock out the first wave of incoming Zulu cavalry. After the initial battles, the Zulu seemed to collapse under war weariness, and Spanish cavalry picked apart the musketmen defending each city. During the fighting a Great Leader emerged who built a new palace in Ulundi to bring productivity to the newly captured cities. India and Spain combined eliminate the Zulu by 750 AD.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/GM20_750ADtact.jpg

Zwingli, strong comeback from a shaky early medieval position. Your game is a good example of the power of diplomacy - specifically, alliances - to reduce the AI's deity production edge. Even the ones that didn't produce immediate results helped to wear down the AI, like your Zulu example.

I have a question about moving the palace to Ulundi. While this will improve the productivity of whatever the Zulus left you, doesn't your homeland suffer a corresponding productivity loss? Presuming this is why I've never moved my palace far away - I always thought I'd be better off keeping the cities I developed productive. (This assumes that the palace and FP are reasonably situated in the homeland.)

Originally posted by Zwingli
... In 550 AD the Zulu declared war rather than remove a tresspassing Impi, and a Spanish Missionary torched the offending unit starting a Golden Age...
Yes, the [ptw] players get the benefits of the barking dog conquistador but the [civ3] and [civ3mac] players get the benefit of the loyal Brothers of the Holy Order of Conflaguration and their "Flaming Wands of Death". ;)

Ancient age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=55181&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=4) http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif :evil:

Only 8 cities at the end of the QSC, but things improved afterwards.
While the entire world was in war, I was building cities until circa 500BC. I settled near the Ivory, and then got one fur, while the Celts got another, and the last one is in no-man’s land. I continued to send one galley after the other with two cities building them continuously. Eventually I did bought Code of Laws and Polytheism when I saw fit, but all the others were already in the Middle Ages for some time.

The middle ages lasted about 1000 years from 500 BC to 500AD. It was the time of expansion for the Spanish empire but the scribes did not keep records of these times so we will only use the legends of the periods.

The Western journeys. Our two towns on the seaside built one galley after another and send them in ocean. The first died pre 1000BC. The second spotted shallow water before dieing. Four more sunk before I finally made it on the other side, while I hold off trading my way out of the ancient ages. Japan and Azteca were a little in front of me tech-wise but after a trading session I got the four remaining ancient age techs, plus Monotheism. As seen on CFC (pun intended) I traded the maps but not the contacts for lots of cash and still kept lots of trading opportunities.

The Old World Battlefield. One of the key elements in beating deity is to make the AI war between themselves. In the first continental war I bribed the French to attack the Ottomans and the Celts to attack the Indians. As England was a backward civ I bribed them to declare to both India and Ottomans. The Zulu joined the war against the Ottomans by their own will. The outcome of the wars were: The Ottomans took one French city. Plus I grew four times on the power graph (doubling the number of cities helped, as well as building some 20 warriors upgraded to swords. I attacked the French around 500BC and stormed them with swords and later Med Infs. I gifted one of the cities to the Zulu as it was too close to the Ottoman border and the flip calculator said that chances to flip within 10 turns were 28%. At the end of the French war I bribed the Ottomans and the Celts again to declare war to India. I did this because I was afraid they might turn to me while I was busy with the French. But France fell so quickly that I had nothing to do with my armies.

SO I declared war to the English and took 3 of their towns near the furs. I had to stop the war since the Celts blocked my path and wouldn’t let my pass. By that time India got reduced to a couple of towns and everybody was ahead in tech. So after another trading session I had Chivalry, Theology and Engineering and started to upgrade my 20 horses. This took a lot of time and to rush things I traded gpt for down-payments from the AI. The rate was 1 gpt for 15g but in three turns I had my Knight army ready for the Celtic war. I bribed the Ottomans and the English in and attacked the Celts. I got to the choke point in three turns, taking 6 Celtic cities but at the gates of Verulaminum I noticed Musketmen. But it fell and my 15 Knights paused to heal their wounds in the city barracks. Ten of them left for Entremont and the remaining were slaughtered in a rebellion. Still I took Entremont only to see that my allies made peace with the poor celts now counting 4 cities including Verulaminum. I took that one back but then my forces got reduced to 4 knights and two Med Infs that camped on the hills surrounding Entremont and Verulaminum. The first flipped 5 times, while the latter 9 times and I took them back every time but then Richmond flipped to the English and I lost the Choke point. This is where I stand now while the Ottomans and the Zulu fought on and on and the Ottomans managed to take Rheims, the French city that I gifted the Zulu with and killed the remains of India.

The technological breakthroughs. The Ottomans were and remained the tech leaders so far. They had one tech ahead of everybody and kept on researching despite being in war. Japan was trailing them on the other continent but they researched the same techs so no opportunities arose. Azteca, Zulu, the Celts and the Indians (before their demise) were close behind the leaders and this is were I found most of the opportunities. Still, a couple of turns before the Celtic war, India demanded contact with Iroquois and I gave in. The same turn I traded all other contacts and techs for a net three techs advance. Soon after India got Navigation and the others followed. I frog-leaped three techs at a time and my increasing cash available allowed me to be the third to get Magnetism and trade it for cash and later trade the remaining middle age techs for an industrial age one. England still is the last in tech, with Gunpowder and Astronomy in 500 AD. America, Iroquois and Azteca lack Economics and Military Tradition and one Industrial Age tech. Zulu has Military Tradition over them, while me, Japan and the Ottoman empire lead the tech race. I now pay about 250 gpt mostly for tech and receive some 50 gpt. I also pay four resources, thus missing saltpeter, and extra luxuries. Needless to say that my only tech gambit at Printing press failed 6 turns before breakthrough.

The improvements and resources. I own five luxuries and import two more, have two unconnected iron, three horses and one saltpeter (currently traded away). My core cities already built a marketplace and a bank, my FP was hand built in the middle of the desert, NE of Madrid and the surrounding area still builds marketplaces. The French jungle is almost cleared and most of the inner land is improved.

I only noticed particular behavior from the Ottomans who built most of the wonders. Have missed a lot of Easter Eggs I presume. I still plan to open the Inner Sea to the Ocean through 2 Straits but England has those lands for now.

A couple of things for the reader willing to pick a trick or two. I took a lot of care not to damage my reputation. I did not trade any luxuries before I had my own port and the recipient had his. When I declared war to France I noticed my trading connection with the Ottomans vanish for several turns. I paid piles of gold for safety. At all times my neighbors were allied with me against some foe on another border so they would not lust for my lands. Theses alliances cost me around 50gpt at all times leading to an estimate of 3000 gold paid over the 60 turns from 500BC to 500AD. Instead I never got attacked by my neighbors and got to pick my own place and time for the fights.

Base minimap dated 590BC
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/gotm20_590bc.JPG

Originally posted by TC3
In my game the Ottomans were huge... What do you experts do when a scientific civ gets the lead and starts to pull away like that?

I have exactly the same concern and I am facing the same situtation. Luckily, I was the first to spot an American Galley @ 490 BC. That allows me to practise some trading and to get back to tech parity.

At this time, I keep watching every turn the Ottomans Attitude. Putting much effort in ROP & MPP in order to keep them happy. I am still a little late in tech but I keep the other countries behind so I can trade some techs nicely.

Due to the size of Ottomans, I could not keep contact of the other continent to me otherwise they would have extorted these from me :(

I am still surviving put I dread of Ottomans going wild as I am weak military compared to them.

Conquest
Yes!!!! I am still alive believe it or not. Never played a game above Regent before, but I am still here. Someone said in Spoiler 1 that the Great Library isn't so good. Well I beg to differ. It gave me immediate tech parity from trailing 12 techs behind. Now I am the tech leader and selling the techs back at an inflated price. Almost half of my gold is from rival civs (see image).
I have played it very safe war-wise. I have only been involved in 3 wars and that was because I knocked back their demands. After they declared war I quickly signed 2 or 3 other civs into the deals and they did most of the fighting for me. I had a fright when the Keltoi declared war on me, as they were a neighbour and I only had an Immobile Defender and a Cavalry defending a size 12 city right next to them!!! I quickly conscripted and luckily I was okay.) The Iroquois are the super-power but I think not for much longer, every other civ seems to have declared war on them. France is the next largest and they are Gracious towards me. Ottomans and Keltoi have been obliterated.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
I would have hit 20k culture victory in 1958 AD (62 culture/turn), but someone else won at around the 1600's. [/B]Bad luck Bamspeedy. It would have been a very interesting win.

Originally posted by TC3
What do you experts do when a scientific civ gets the lead and starts to pull away like that?
Open Class [civ3mac] 1.29

I went the money way. Going on borderline military, I built markets and raked in as much cash as possible. Then I looked for opportunities of trading techs between civs, which worked reasonably well. With navigation, I built missionaries and triggered my Golden Age. This I used for even more infrastructure (libraries, universities, banks, and a manually (pre-)built Smith's. This I did to prepare in hope of getting steam first, as I usually do on emperor. The outcome this time will be reported in the next spoiler .....

After having lost several galleys, I made a final attempt with a stack of 3 galleys, and one of them survived. :) Regrettably, the Ottomans discovered magnetism at the same time and thus I had to make the deals immediately and could not rake in huge profits. :( But I got hold of 3 more luxuries adding up to full eight :D and getting a great economic boost.

Edit: Having looked at the game again: Ottomans discovered navigation. (Both mag and nav allow trade over ocean.)

Originally posted by tao

After having lost several galleys, I made a final attempt with a stack of 3 galleys, and one of them survived. :) Regrettably, the Ottomans discovered magnetism at the same time and thus I had to make the deals immediately and could not rake in huge profits. :( But I got hold of 3 more luxuries adding up to full eight :D and getting a great economic boost.

Havn't had a lot of experience with naval stuff, but I thought they couldn't cross ocean squares safely until navigation. I traded contacts the turn that was discovered and no-one had met by then... was pretty soon after the discovery of magnetism, so I could have been lucky!

Originally posted by TC3
I just retired rather than watch my empire beaten down.


I know exactly how you feel. Losing by getting wiped out is the worst way to lose. And that would never happen in a regular SP game because you would quit first.

The first game of the month I played was the Celts. I went the wrong direction and didn't get iron until late. I was way behind in tech because of a death struggle with Rome. I wiped out the Romans but the French marched across several other empires just to kick my butt. After losing a couple of key cities to the French I quit in disgust and therefore couldn't submit. I should have just swallowed my pride and fought to the bitter end.

CONQUEST - Mac 1.29b2

Since I'm lazy, I didn't post in the first spoiler thread, and didn't keep a timeline after reaching the new world. :o
I went for the cash as well. I entered the middle ages in second place thanks to the great start and extra bonuses :) ... and with miraculous luck had my third suicide galley reach the new world in 530BC. Since I got there so early, I was able to keep the worlds separate for a long time, and I made a little money from that. When the time came, and the French and the Ottomans were on the verge of Magnetism, I sold everything off and ended up with tech parity and about a ten turn lead on economics, which enabled me to build Smiths Trading... yay!

Ottomans were always the threat. They were in first place through the ancient age, and in the late middle ages they declared war on me while I was still paying them Furs and 19gpt... I was a little confused about this until I realised that something they had done early on in the war had broken one of my trade routes and damaged my rep. Anyway, I bribed everybody else (except the new world and the long dead Keltoi) and we gave them a bit of a slapping.
I'm not very fond of war, and I got out soon after my 20 turn deals were up, although on reflection maybe I should have pressed my advantage. I had other fish to fry...

...by the end of this spoiler period, the world was truly at war. More next time!

thanks guys for making me see that I should keep going on with my game even though I seem to be doomed. I'll go finish it up this afternoon and watch my empire sink faster then the Spanish Armada. I'll probably spend the rest of the month preparing for a new GOTM. Hopefully it won't be Diety:)

Open Class

Well, I'm still going - not strong, but still alive. The French have been wiped out, the Ottomans have 4 cities scattered throughout the globe, and the Americans are down to 2 cities, so compared to them I'm dominating.

The Zulus are the strongest, however, all other Civs have declared war on them, except for me. I'm just bebopping by myself avoiding conflicts as I build my empire and peacefully expand into the spaces created by the AI civs razing each others cities.

I am up to 20+ cities, and am up to 5th in the score. I am also 5th in or so in the techs. I was able to catch up in tech somewhat by sending out suicide galleys and made it to America on my 2nd one and then traded contacts, techs etc. I was then able to gain 2 techs for each one I researched on my way to Mit. Trad, by trading my newly discovered tech with Iroquios and Aztecs for one of their techs, since we are even.

The main problem has been Zulu, India, Celts and England, all ahead in tech, but now that they are all at war with each other, my military is catching up, now that I can build Cavs just like them.

The problem with Diety, is I can barely tell a difference between this game and our last Regent, Monarch, and Emperor games. I seem to be in the same boat. Gaining more land, catching up on techs, but just enough behind to where I can't catch them and they will either win the vote (but probably not since they are all at war) or build a spaceship. However, it will be different if they build all their tanks and all roll in on me and completely destroy me. I have not lost by that way yet.

Either way, I love playing this game and building my empire on the toughest level and doing better then half the AI civs.:lol:

It will be very interesting to go back to another Regent level GOTM game and see how much better I will do, becasue my skill level could be increasing and proportionately getting negated by the increased skill level.

Anyway, I am still moving along with the fight in this game, but still unsure of what path to take to victory. I'm guessing, to keep grabbing land and building my pop just in case a vote comes along, and then my second option will be to fight the weak AIs, just to let them know who the boss is.

I don't think Moonsinger has posted in this thread. This can only mean she won before the end of the middle ages.

I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

Open Class [civ3mac] 1.29

First post is here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1028649#post1028649)

Spain ended the Middle Ages in 570AD. It was a slow gaining on our way to victory. The current state of the republic is as follows:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/tao_gotm20_570ad.jpg

We are trailing the Ottomans, who were the absolute power civ (maybe it is 1.29 specific). We did not succeed with any 40 turn research and lost a number of suicide galleys. In 250AD, a stack of 3 sailed west and 1 reached America. The Ottomans just discovered navigation and we had to buy it at monopoly price in order to make luxury deals with the new continent for our techs before the Turks could make contact. From then on, we managed every 20 turns to just come up with a new tech to renew these deals. :)

Ottomans built Pyramids, Great Wall, Sistine, and Bach's in Sogut; they also have Hanging Gardens, Sun Tzu's, and Shakespeare's thus being the culture powerhouse of the world.

Zulus built Leonardo's, and we were able to build Smith's during our Golden Age in Toledo.

The bad thing is, that with Madrid being such a great 4 turn settler pump, I did not set up a second. Thus the Ottomans were able to build 2 cities in my core area. I hoped for flips, but given their culture, in vain.

When the Ottomans demolished England, we were able to capture a few of their cities. In 240AD we joined the Turk's war against France (they were destroyed them in 270AD), but we had too few troups to enter the war earlier. We still managed to capture Orleans with the important wines. Because of its closeness to Sogut it flipped some time, but the gracious Ottomans refused :D . It pays off to be nice buddies.

Apart from the Ottoman's free tech, we are on par, always buying techs. Since we want to do our own research in the Industrial Times, get ToE, tech lead, etc., we used our Golden Age to build libraries, universities and banks to prepare for the research frenzy on steam. Whether we succeeded is beyond the scope of this thread.

Originally posted by Dislak
thanks guys for making me see that I should keep going on with my game even though I seem to be doomed. I'll go finish it up this afternoon and watch my empire sink faster then the Spanish Armada. I'll probably spend the rest of the month preparing for a new GOTM. Hopefully it won't be Diety:)

The start is a good one to practice on. For fun, I suggest playing several starts on this map to 1000 BC and see how many cities, units and improvements you can get. There are no barbs on Open or Conquest level, and the enemies are a good distance away, so you can concentrate purely on exploration and expansion. Practicing the early game may be the best way for novice players to improve their game. Try different starting build queues. Try building early cities very close together (one or two tiles apart).

You can also practice on random maps with barbs turned on, as most games will have some barbs, and again see how much you can build by 1000 BC.
+ Bill

Originally posted by Txurce
I have a question about moving the palace to Ulundi. While this will improve the productivity of whatever the Zulus left you, doesn't your homeland suffer a corresponding productivity loss? Presuming this is why I've never moved my palace far away - I always thought I'd be better off keeping the cities I developed productive. (This assumes that the palace and FP are reasonably situated in the homeland.)
My Forbidden Palace was built at the center of the original Spanish lands, while the Palace was ill placed at Madrid (close to the coastline). Moving the Palace did not decrease my gold income, although my total shield production probably dropped temporarilly. The nearby captured Colossus helped, and many of the captured Zulu cities had intact marketplaces, banks, and aquaducts. Of course, the Palace (built at the midpoint of the war) also greatly reduced the odds of culture flipping while I was capturing Zulu cities intact, and no flips occured during this particular war. (It would also help with any potential future campaign against India ;) )

Originally posted by BillChin
The start is a good one to practice on. For fun, I suggest playing several starts on this map to 1000 BC and see how many cities, units and improvements you can get...
I want to second this excellent suggestion by Bill because this map is available to you in three almost identical flavors.

You can play the game initially in the Conquest Version as use that as a basis for comparison.

The Open Class version is identical to the Congquest version and still has sedentary barbarians. Once you have full knowledge of the map you should probably use the Open class game to play some tests because foreknowledge of the map plus the Coquest class bonuses would probably make this process very easy for you.

The predator class game has raging barbarians and now starting Wheel but other than that it will be a great comparison to show you how much more difficult it can be when you have open space to expand into but lots of barbarian risk and other priorities.

A little bit or thought and care and some minor note taking should let you really have alot of fun just playing and comparing these three different game files from the same start position.

------------------------------------------------

I will add that our preconceived perception and testing of the Conquest class game bonuses leads us to gues that we will see a significant number of the Conquest class players who still end up slightly behind the leading 40-50% of the open class players even though the conquest class players began the game with one extra town and worker plus other advantages.

The real reason for this is that it may take a game or two for players to fully focus on the key opening play issues such as worker tasking and stratgic city placement/expansion. Once we see players start to do this you end up with the pattern we are seeing across all the game results where more players are basically IN the game and capable of then making choices as to how the middle of the game will progress. Clearly these players are having more fun and being able to make more personal choices as to how they enjoy and gain entertainment value from their Civ3 experiences.

Barely hanging on after a great QSC start. Got attacked early and noone would sign mil alliances with me. A suicide galley made it and I got caught up on techs for a little bit, but it didn't last long. I'm behind on cities, mil, techs, and everything else! Plus everyone is furious at me, so I can't pull out a diplo win. Think I'm going to lose this one.

Originally posted by cracker

The real reason for this is that it may take a game or two for players to fully focus on the key opening play issues such as worker tasking and stratgic city placement/expansion. Once we see players start to do this you end up with the pattern we are seeing across all the game results where more players are basically IN the game and capable of then making choices as to how the middle of the game will progress. Clearly these players are having more fun and being able to make more personal choices as to how they enjoy and gain entertainment value from their Civ3 experiences.

The one positive thing about my loss is that it gives me some free time to practice opening strategies. There are two things that stand out. First is that the despot rush strategy is very viable on this map. Second, and most interesting to me, is what the Zulu are able to do with what looks like an over-powered start. In the game I lost the Zulu's early attack against the Ottomans was turned away sharply, but in most of my quick 1000 BC replays the Zulu were able to beat them down significantly very early on.

If the Ottomans make it to the late middle ages with a decent number of cities and get one or both of the science wonders then it becomes really difficult to wipe them out. If you don't wipe them out then they are quite likely to run away with science and launch the space ship (or wipe everyone out with siphai). It will be interesting to compare the outcomes of the games where the Ottomans were strong versus the ones where the were neutralized early.

I also wonder how this map would've played with the scientific civ placed on the other continent. There wasn't a large amount to be gained in my game from my suicide galleys because I was actually ahead of everyone else on the other continent in tech and nobody over there had much money.

Conquest 1,29f

Thanks craker for a blessed starting position. It is being a very enjoyable game... the desperation at time makes it even better.

Before I start rambling one question:

reloading after your finger slips and you accidentaly giving your most advanced tech to a civ you are ready to anihilate for free is it cheating?


Anyway...

Researched engineering, bought feudalism and Chivalry from the French... for several reasons France became my target for war.

Take grenoble (just North of Madrid)
France allies with Kelts and English.

Defensive war: destruction of English army at san sebastian with loss of only one knigh ambushed by longbowman when 'G'oing to san sebastian. Manage to turn the kelts on my side against the english. No more english troops show up. Give Iron for free to the Kelts

GL from defensive war in the walled cities of the south-> army of elite knights -> retake setubal, take Chartres and take control of horsies.

French don't have salpetter -> sue for peace in exchange for tech that I sell to other civs.

Take english city, Fur monopoly. Forced to pause due to lack of troops. Kelts are driving the english back destroing city after city.

Make truce with english in exchange for tech. Still too much behing France and India.
One galley sinks in the high seas a second galley is destroied by sea monsters, the thrid one finds America making contact with a passing by american Galley.

Mother of all trading rounds, I rise from backwards civ to 2nd in tech and with enougth money to turn research to 100% and still make money :D . Contact with the indians alone gives me 2 techs from the Iroquois. I'm 5 techs away from the end of middleages

Turn to Republic. Money is flowing in. I'm leaching everyone except the ottomans which declare war on me. I get both the Zullu and French against them. The missionaries burn the herectic ottoman tresspassers at the stake initiating a golden age of Spanish Inquisition.
A horde of spanish Medinfantry and catapults conquer the Ottoman heartland after the Zullus have kicked the living daylight out the Ottoman military. I take 4 cities the french 1 and the zulu 3 or 4, plus the ones they burned down. I get my first wonder
:goodjob: Davinci's workshop and start upgrading. A GL appears just in time to become Vice-king at Urdu...something and builds for himself a forbidden pallace.
second kelt war after they refuse to retreat from Andorra. In the ensuing war I take a nearby kelt city. The kelts pay tribute in exchange for peace... I must be carefull for war weariness.
The ottomans last citadel lost deep in... hey that used to be England!!! Is taken by the French. I just noticed that the English are on the ropes the Kelts are kicking them back to the ice age. They burn down London destroying the Oracle.
3nd kelt war after ... some pretext I forget:p this time I'm the one forced to ask for peace after being on the brick of taking Augus...something and it's viniards and salpetter mines. Happily I manage to retake the 2 cities (andorra la nueva and the city captured from the kelts in the 2nd kelt war) I lost before suing for peace, but my northern army is a shadow of it's former glory.
The building of infrastructures on my heratland caused a shortage of recruiting. I need some turns of peace before my armys are ready to fight again. The Galeass are used for the first time in the 3rd kelt war for shore bombardment, unfortunatly the kelts had already built too many musketman.

Democracy + golden age + finding the new world + fur monopoly + 3salppeter + 4 horses + 3 iron + 3 incense + 4 ivory = 100% tech research (new tech every 5/6 turns) + around 200gpt + all luxuries in all cities

An thus by the ended of medieval age, the once backwards spaniards are now recognized as an advanced civilization, behind in science only to the exotic indians, spanish culture is again on the rise, the military is strong (at least in the south) and everyone is happy and life is good... if only this could last.

Rankings: score: 1 -spain 2 - Iroquois 3 - India 4 - Japan 5 - France 6- Aztec 7- Zulu 8 - Kelts (strong military) 9 - America 10 - England. Ottomans are extinct.

Strange as it might seem the civs in the new world were more advanced than spain and Japan was behind only to India (with lots of cash to spare). The Iroquois mopped the floor with America driving and confining America to 2 cities in Hispaniola (thats the name first given to Cuba if I'm not mistaken) that they share with Japan. To slow down Iroquois expansion I gave away horses to the americans but to no avail.

Conquest

I'm still alive, thanks to MA's against the invading Zulu. Starting to falling seriously behind in tech - knights vs Cav. Zulu are busy fighting everyone else on the continent now (Brennus RIP, but 4 others still). Got all of them to sign MA's immediately - good rep good for something! :cool:

I was able to get the suicide galley across first, but the new contacts were not as lucrative as I hoped. Turned out my continent was the tech leader, and I had already garned most of the techs. Also, it sped up the tech race since the AI is happy to trade techs at a resonable rate - to each other!

Got a FP built in a desirable location, and have my corner of the continent secure, except for 1 tundra English town. Not sure if it will flip. I managed to grab a French town that the Zulus captured (with the force sent for me ;) ). The Zulu also razed an English town in the NE, and I'm trying to get a settler into that void. Also trying to get a Conquistador in the field for a GA. A leader would be great, but do not expect much combat.

Survival, much less Victory is still not certain. I must keep my (relatively) good reputation and try to stay afloat in tech. I may have a chance at UN chairman, but I may have to build UN. My early culture lead has vanished with the earnest AI build capacity.
:cry:

Originally posted by Lux_willow
Hispaniola (thats the name first given to Cuba if I'm not mistaken) that they share with Japan.

Hispanola is a Caribbean island (E of Cuba) that contains the modern nations of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The first Spanish colony in the "New World" was on Hispanola.

Before I start rambling one question:
reloading after your finger slips and you accidentaly giving your most advanced tech to a civ you are ready to anihilate for free is it cheating?


No, 'fat finger' syndrome mistakes are not something you PLANNED to do, so reloading for those errors is not cheating, as you never intended to give away your techs for free.

If you did something, but find out later that it wasn't a good move (like trading luxuries, then the next turn, the trade route gets cut by some 3rd party) would not be acceptable to reload for, as you INTENDED to make the trade, accepting the possibility of the trade routes being cut.

Most people shouldn't worry about the reload counter for 'fat finger' slip-ups. But if you make them way too frequently, you should just accept the consequences of some of the minor mistakes.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Most people shouldn't worry about the reload counter for 'fat finger' slip-ups. But if you make them way too frequently, you should just accept the consequences of some of the minor mistakes.

I would say reloading for user input error is generally verbotten. I made plenty of tactical mistakes, like group move w/5 fast units and 1 slow.

Unless you're in danger of a critical loss I would say live and learn.

If you're about to annhilate them, what difference does it make? You could give them replacable parts but not relevant unless they can build/upgrade.

Thanks! I was worried because by giving away that one tech I lost tech lead and the next turn everyone had it! Even civs that could afford it before!

and thanks for the geographical correction... pity there aren't any valuable lux's on hispaniola to justify the sending of a miltary expedition to take the island.

Now I'm confused! Is reloading alowed or not? I haven't reloaded but I only played 1 turn after the slip up. The important fact is that they managed to trade the tech I gave them wich might significatively slowdown my invasion and could have allowed them to engage the other superpower on their side causing a situation in witch I can be overrun by enemy forces in two fronts.
Or at the very least sign trade embargoes stumping the flow of indispensable lux now that I'm in full scale war weariness... in turn forcing a government flip to [goverment not available in the timeline of this thread that everyone knows is best for war] making me fall behind in tech again. With my rep that means I won't be able to get to build the UN wich means a diplomatic loss in 30-40 turns... no way I can trigger a conquest victory by then.

Lux_willow for your specific case it is ok. You did not plan or want to donate the tech.

Alamo was just saying that for minor mistakes that won't drastically change the outcome of the game, you shouldn't bother to reload.
Your situation would drastically change the outcome, and your 'mistake' was not something like a battle outcome or something that would rely on the RNG or AI response, where you would be taking a calculated risk/gamble. Nor was it because you forgot to check something, like seeing if a city will go into disorder.

It was just a slip of the finger, nothing more, nothing less.

Ah ok. Feeling much better now =)

I kind of panicked... I was doing so well and that one slip up could cost me the game. =P

BTW your icon on the signature rocks!

I'm not in last place!!!! That is about as good as it gets for my introduction to GOTM (at deity no less).

I've used the excellent advice of many experienced players in the forums and own the entire region of the continent that we

began on. I'm at peace with everyone and trade extensively. I'm using the research at 0-10% and buy techs technique and have actually caught up!! <snip>

{I actually think that 90% of this post is a report that belongs in the Industrial or Modern Ages so I have saved the text and reduced this post to just the information that belongs in or before the end of the middle ages. Please develop the habit of reading the first post of any spoiler thread so you will have the benefit of a very clear definition of the content that you are allowed to post and discuss at any point in time. -cracker}

Well, this was my first official GOTM after having played 18 and 19 offline and done okay in them. Being a lurker in the forums for several weeks has really helped my strategy.

I went for Conquest having only ever won on Deity the once, and even then with an "always war" strategy with the iriquois (sp?), and things went pretty well. I spotted the land bridges early, and although I didn't concentrate too much on it, managed to contact the second continent quite early on.

My two major bits of luck were i) getting a leader early on in a war with the Celts and hence an early FP in the great location of Entremont; ii) getting a second leader (wow, never normally happens) during a small campaign at the beginning of the middle ages to weaken the English. Both of these came in very handy, especially the FP, given the number of potential (and eventually captured) cities within its boundaries.

I always have major problems with tech on the higher levels, and my early plan was to simply overwhelm the whole continent through military might, aiming for a conquest victory. However, that's not as easy as it sounds with an extremely powerful Zulu who had virtually wiped out the Ottomans by 1000 BC. So I held off on studying/buying Education for many years in Republic (until around 1200AD) and just assaulted the remains of the Celts to grab the Great Library and boost me to the end of the middle ages and beyond.

All in all a very enjoyable game. The two settlers and workers at the start were the biggest boost for me. I didn't really use defense, I am always backwards in terms of defence except at the front line. Also being an absolute hater of barbars, I was happy not to see any of these.

In terms of the performance of the various civs:

English: Bit of a bad starting location they never really improved upon. They never really competed with me after I secured the majority of "my" starting area. I pegged them back early in the middle ages to make sure they posed no further problems, then wiped them out with the advent of knights.

Celts: Simularly to the English, but an even earlier battle at the end of the dark ages gave me the chance to subdew their threat. I just kept them alive to be able to capture their great library at the opportune moment.

Indians: Held on valiantly, but were eventually wiped out by the steroid powered Zulus who had been at war with them on and off since the beginning of the game.

Zulus: Worried me right from the start of the game. Virtually the first thing I did after I encountered them was to try to dogpile them with the rest of the known world... They were so strong that this was to no avail. In fact they did very well out of it. Wiped out the Ottomans, took half of the Indian cities fairly early on (and the rest after the advent of cavalry), and took/destroyed about half of France. They never really threatened me too much, and I managed to peg them back just a little by taking back some ex French and Indian cities, but my original aim to actually wipe them off the face of the earth would have been more effort than it was worth, and the whole of my empire would probably have had to be geared towards a looong war to wipe them out, while the "new world nations" would have streaked ahead in terms of infrastructure and tech.

Ottomans: As mentioned, they never got much past 1000BC (if at all), can't quite remember.

France: Survived farily valiantly after an early bashing from me, but a combined (but not co-operative effort) from me and the Zulus wiped them out in the middle of the middle ages.

Iriquois: Had a sizeable territory, but were always behind in tech.

America: Did well throughout this era, joining forces with the Japanese to swallow up about 30% of the Aztec's lands.

Japan: As above, but even better. Got the majority of the ages wonders, and took 70% or so of the Aztecs lands-wiping them out.

Aztecs: See above.

I never used the galeass. I relied mainly on knights and medieval infantry for assaults; musketmen for defence. I never get round to using bombard units, too fiddly and annoying.

Cheers Cracker, Moonsinger, SirPleb etc. I shall be back again.

Kello

Originally posted by cracker
For many players the game could end in this era.


Well one thing about a Diety game, it is fast and furious.... even playing conquest class I finallly made a few fatal mistakes that cost me the game right at the end of the middle ages. My downfall was mostly diplomacy and trading related I think so I guess that is what I need to study up on for next months GOTM.

At the end of the ancient age I had just discovered the other continent with only my second suicide galley... That galley was henceforth known as the Lucky Bastard. I bartered the contacts to get all of the ancient techs and the few middle age techs known at the time. I was in the midst of a war with the ottomans, who were the dominant civ by far in my game. Every other civ in the game ended up at war with the ottomans and these guys just laughed at us. The ottomans had a very cocky attitude. I took three of their cities and burned one to the ground. then made peace with them in the process getting three middle age techs for peace and some GPT. I should have left them alone then and tried to take some of the weaker civs right next to me out but I am not what some of you would term a "good player" or even a "rational player".

At this point all of the other civs besides the ottomans were annoyed to polite toward me, I had about 30 cities and was making about 150 GPT... which for me is really good in any game let alone the conquest variant of diety.

I talked to ghandi and he offered me some gold per turn to go back to war with the ottomans so I gladly took him up on the offer and sent about 20 knights down there. the ottomans had all of the wonders and I really wanted to capture a city full of wonders. The japanese had landed near the ottomans and had taken a city so I figured with me, the indians, the japanese and the zulus at war with the ottomans we stood half a chance. Unfortunately by the time my knights got down there the otooman cities were full of musketmen. and while my knights were able to burn one city to ground they got used up on the ottoman defenses pretty quick. So I had to make peace witht the ottomans. Thus I not only now have broken a peace treaty with the ottomans I now have broken a military alliance with the indians. The kelts go to war with me and I take three of their cities which were encroaching on my "territory" I make peace with them and start really building my infrasturcture furiously since I am making 200 GPT, my standard build order for my cities was barracks temple cathedral marketplace, with lots of units mixed in there.

By 900AD I am able to trade with enough civs to reach almost the end of the middle ages. I still needed democracy and theory of gravity... however all of the other civs have entered the industrial age by I am guessing 3 or 4 techs.

Suddenly india and england sign a mutual protection pact. Which just rang bells in my head as uh, oh something is going down. Then india who just 100 years ago was gracious towards me declares war on me, well so does england and a turn later france and the kelts. They crush about 10 of my cities in literally 3 turns with just waves of knights and archerers and after that it was all over. Suddenly everyone even the Americans who were pathetic in my game... way behind me in every way declared war on me. At 900 AD I was holding my own with a big army and good reputation and by 1000AD it was all dust. I am still a little stunned how fast the end game was. I lost 3 to 5 cities a turn for a few turns in a row.

ah well. there is always next month.

I really liked the galleyas unit... I wish I had built a few more of them now. They were pretty useful in middle age wars to park off a city and soften it up a bit. I think I killed a few workers and did a little damage to one city before I attacked. I was aslo able to destroy a few ships the enemy threw at me

The ottomans in my game must have had some cities with awesome production because they survived constant warfare from almost every civ at once while building almost every wonder.

I got one great leader and used him to rush my forbidden palace in one of my more northern cities which was great for me because it really turned about 5 cities from almost all corruption into cities that could really crank out units.

Sorry this post ended up being so long.... thanks GOTM staff for a great game.... really looking forward to next month already.
:goodjob:

Open class, Civ III 1.29

As we all know, when you get Education the Great Library stops granting free techs. Lesser appreciated may be the fact that the GL doesn’t stop working until the next turn, you can get additional free techs the same turn you learn education.

My ancient era: Managed to stop up both chokepoints in the NE, keeping the Keltoi and English confined. My southern border with the French generally paralleled the jungle line with an additional city on the Western end claiming the Dyes. Failed in the 40 turn writing research gambit.

Zulu got dogpiled by the AI and reduced to a few cities. I made a few military alliances against the Zulu and got some ancient era techs in exchange. Then I screwed up. Made an alliance with the Indians late in the dogpile, then absentmindedly forgot about it and made peace about 10 turns later. This essentially screwed my reputation for the rest of the game. Between no one willing to trade techs with me anymore and writing gambit not paying off, I fell seriously behind in tech. Suicide galley made it over to the New World (third try) and found out that I was behind everyone over there in tech too.

So, at the end of the ancient era, I was:
- Hopelessly behind in techs
- Researching Feudalism with the AIs were building Copernicus…
- Unable to make real trades due to my rep (no one would trust me to honor gpt or luxury deals)
- Not much infrastructure built up, but ….
- Lots of cities with barracks and plentiful workers

Things were looking bad for the Spaniards until I realized the English had built the Great Library in London (back in 1375 BC). Since I had built a city on the southern chokepoint, London was only two cities over and well within range. But I didn’t want to just go grab it too early. Ideally, I wanted to get as many techs as possible and have the land and army to take advantage of the resultant tech parity.

This means:
- Slow down my own research as much as possible
- Do nothing to impede the leading AI research
- Isolate England diplomatically and geographically so they won’t have any help
- Make sure that one of the dominant civs (Ottomans …) doesn’t take London
- Ideally wait until two of the scientific AIs are in the industrial era, but …
- Don’t wait too long & do enough research so as to be able to take London and preferably keep it. (Horsemen and swords against fortified veteran riflemen in a size 12 city is a bad idea.)

Took a three phased approach: France, Keltoi, then England. General approach was massed horsemen against pikemen and medieval swordsmen. Tactically, this is similar to jaguar knights vs spearmen and ancient swordsmen – mass attacks taking advantage of numbers and speed/retreat, goal is to attack a city from defensive position two squares away, take a city the same turn, rest up inside the city for the next wave, and use healthy units to cut down any counterattack outside the newly conquered city gates. During this time, my cities are only building more horsemen, a few spearmen to garrison, and barracks.

France was a short war to take one city and promote some veterans to elite while my workers finished mining and roading. Shifted to Keltoi and took Richborough next to the landbridge and then Mohacs directly south of London. Initial plan was to quickly declare peace with Keltoi and shift north, but English, French, and Ottomans all declared war on Keltoi. The great Keltoi landgrab was on and I chose to delay going after Elizabeth. Ended up taking eight Keltoi cities while the Ottomans took two on the coast of the inner sea and debuted their Balkan Dragoons. (An aside: The Keltoi were hideously consistent in having lone Gallic Swordsmen attack massed Horsemen on a mountain and be slaughtered on the counterattack. I’ll gladly trade a 2.1.2 for a 3.2.2 when I have more pieces on the chessboard.) By the end of the Keltoi dogpile, I had Chivalry (from the Keltoi when they were down to one city) to take on the AI musketeers and cavalry. Also got a Great Leader and moved my Palace to Entremont (already hand built the FP).

Spent a few turns upgrading and massed about 50 Knights on the English border in two war parties. Two turns later captured London (880 AD) and finished off the English about 10 turns later. They only produced a few cavalry.

The turn after capturing London, the Great Library netted me: Music Theory, Education, Gunpowder, Banking, Astronomy, Chemistry, Democracy, Economics, Navigation, Physics, Metallurgy, Free Artistry, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, Military Tradition, and one industrial era tech. Could have had more if I had waited to take London until all the other English cities were “liberated” but I wanted to take their high production cities during my initial charge.

Ended the English war with tech parity, lots o’ military, two functioning cores, and the largest empire on the planet. Continent divided between me and the Ottomans with a small French presence nervously trying not to be noticed.

solodar

Originally posted by solodar
Open class, Civ III 1.29

The turn after capturing London, the Great Library netted me: Music Theory, Education, Gunpowder, Banking, Astronomy, Chemistry, Democracy, Economics, Navigation, Physics, Metallurgy, Free Artistry, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, Military Tradition, and one industrial era tech. Could have had more if I had waited to take London until all the other English cities were “liberated?but I wanted to take their high production cities during my initial charge.
solodar

This is an interesting read. That means the best use of Great Library is not to build it yourself, but grab it from others before you get Education. I never thought this would be possible: getting so many after-education techs from great library. Because normally, if you build it yourself, after you get Education from it, that's the end. Guess THIS is what GL really should do: storing a lot of tech, waiting for you to discover the biggest "treasure chest" of the whole world of all the centuries. Thanks for sharing this interesting info, solodar. And could you double check it?

Originally posted by sekong


This is an interesting read. That means the best use of Great Library is not to build it yourself, but grab it from others before you get Education. I never thought this would be possible: getting so many after-education techs from great library. Because normally, if you build it yourself, after you get Education from it, that's the end. Guess THIS is what GL really should do: storing a lot of tech, waiting for you to discover the biggest &qu