I know it is probably too late but I would love to see workers have the ability to build canals.

The way I envision it is this: with a very high labor cost, canals could be built on flat land between inland cities and to the coast which would allow most ships (but not Battleships, Carriers or Aegis Cruisers) to travel along the canal and eventually to the ocean if a canal is built to it. Cities connected to canals could build harbors so that they could build experienced naval units. Land units could engage ships in canals but not visa versa though ships could bombard land units. Rivers could be turned into canals at half the price.

This thought came to me because I am making a North America map. It has always frustrated me that in most maps the Great Lakes are landlocked even though in real life all the cities on them are ocean going ports due to the Welland Canal; the same is true of a number of inland cities in China and Manaus, Brazil due to dredging of the Amazon. A number of canals have played vital roles in history. The Grand Canal in China and the Erie Canal come to mind but I know there are many others.

Definetly, I think I just mentioned this in a post about ships and cruise missiles right near this one. I think this needs to be implemented.

Agreed. Canals could be an excellent addition - I've had many situations where they would have opened up my game a lot.

Actually canals could be implemented with a minor modification to the existing features: Allow ships to dock into colonies if the colony is adjacent to a water tile, i.e. the colony is assumed to have a port.

This way canals would be reasonably expensive (costing a worker) but you wouldn't have to build a real city in an isthmus just to connect the seas on either side. I think that the "adjacent to water" rule should be there, too, as otherwise you could build a string of colonies which I think ought not to be possible.

If the colony also worked as a harbor (as in connecting trade routes) then we could finally exploit the resources on such islands where you couldn't build a city (like all mountains). Or if you simply didn't want a real city but still wanted to access resources on some far-away continent.

Originally posted by Pembroke
Actually canals could be implemented with a minor modification to the existing features: Allow ships to dock into colonies if the colony is adjacent to a water tile, i.e. the colony is assumed to have a port.

This way canals would be reasonably expensive (costing a worker) but you wouldn't have to build a real city in an isthmus just to connect the seas on either side. I think that the "adjacent to water" rule should be there, too, as otherwise you could build a string of colonies which I think ought not to be possible.

If the colony also worked as a harbor (as in connecting trade routes) then we could finally exploit the resources on such islands where you couldn't build a city (like all mountains). Or if you simply didn't want a real city but still wanted to access resources on some far-away continent.
But this would be no different than building cities in an isthumus which we can already do. It would also not solve the problem with real world maps of landlocked cities that should actually be ocean going ports.

When I say that building canals should be costly, I am suggesting that it should be EXTREMELY costly to avoid excessive proliferation of canals eg. perhaps 50 to 100 turns for one worker to do one square.

How about a small wonder to open the canal ability?

call it Suez Canal or something, after its completed, the civ can build canal improvement on land tile thats adjacent to a coast/another canal tile.

This way players can cut a long long canal across the continent, IF your're willing to spend a worker on each canal improvemnt that is..
:rolleyes:

Canals are a GREAT idea and I'm surprised they weren't added to this game. I can't even count the number of times I've had to sail around a continent when a canal in 3 squares would've got me through. Any addition that improves & makes your Navy more neccesary I'm all for.

I see Canals as a sort of terrain improvement like a Radar tower or Airport that must be protected strategically.

One thing though, their use will be limited since I think most people will agree that building canals over several titles probably doesn't make sense.

However, it certainly would be nice to be able to open up those one tile land bridges so ships can cut across them.

Good ideas here!

In the Netherlands we have a lot of canals (there are also a lot of rivers in our small country that were "straightened" to make more watertravel possible), but I don't think each of these canals has the capacity to transport large oceanships (maybe not even destroyers and large transport ships). Only very large canals like the Suez canal can do this. Therefore I suggest that canals can only be build on tiles connected to the ocean. So not al your landbased cities can be connected to the sea (that would be very strange).

This way you can cut through two squares of terrain to make an opening through an isthmus. And you could connect cities to the sea if they're only one tile from the sea. Then such a city should be able to build a harbor and other sea-city buildings.

What if you coudl only build a canal if there if a body of water in one side an a maximun of 2 tile to the next body of water, that way it will be more realistic canals in tiny strips of land.

As said in my previous post: In the Netherlands we have a lot of canals and there's is only a coastline on one side of the country. They were created to improve trade (it is easier to manoeuvre over a straight canal than over a not so straight river and there are a lot of rivers in the Netherlands).

So you should be able to create a canal in any landsquare adjacent to the sea.

this would be great especially with a late game naval worker

Naval worker?

Hmmm...this might be an interesting idea in some circumstances. Remember though, that when you look at a world map, just because it LOOKS like you can build a canal on certain areas, doesn't mean that you can. Maybe a new terrain type, Coastal Lowlands, could be made, and a worker could have the ability to canal through these tiles (50 turns per tile sounds about right). This would mostly be useful for premade maps, as I don't think the map generator would handle this very well.

Canals would seriously help me in my games right now because I'm sending my navy around a continent whereas if i had a canal, it would take 2 turns to make it to the other side.

Canals of any type (many listed here sounded good) are something I've been wanting since I first played Civ 1 and realized they didn't have them. Hopefully Firaxis will wake up to this and put them in.

Originally posted by Necromancer
Canals would seriously help me in my games right now because I'm sending my navy around a continent whereas if i had a canal, it would take 2 turns to make it to the other side. Same here with my current game. And to make it worse, there's a city of another civ at the edge of the continent, meaning that I have to pass through his borders, and he's gotten pretty ticked off. And to make it even worse, if I had happened to build one of my cities just one tile to the north I wouldn't have this problem. :wallbash: Silly me.

the Greeks had a system to transport ships across the isthmus near Corinth in ancient times (look closely at a map of greece, two big pieces of land, one skinny isthmus). Here is your historical precedent, and it saved the greeks major amounts of time when going from Italy to Asia Minor. Also, think of the trade revenue you would get when you charge others to use it...

Also, the american made that Panama canal (I saw mention of the Seuz, and Erie canals, but not the panama...). That seemed to be pretty popular seeing as how it went over a mountain, led to the cure for yellow fever, prompted the creation of more massive earth moving machines, and allowed the US Navy to maintain a smaller fleet and still "police" the world's oceans.

me like 'em canals

I think that you should also be able to use rivers as canals or as roads, that would be cool:cooool:

I like this idea, but like people have said above, I think it should be VERY limited. It would be way too unbalancing if you could just build a canal all the way across the US on a world map for example. Maybe limit it to a few tiles.

Also, I dont see why battleships and aircraft carriers couldnt go through? In rl, battleships and carriers go through the Panama and Suez Canals dont they?

Originally posted by RX2000


Also, I dont see why battleships and aircraft carriers couldnt go through? In rl, battleships and carriers go through the Panama and Suez Canals dont they? You're right. I was thinking about smaller canals like the Grand Canal in China or the Welland but I am not married to the idea.

all ships should be able to travel across them. a WW2 carrier, i think it was the USS Hornet, went through the Panama Canal.
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canal building. a great idea for the expansion pack.

i have to admit. this expansion pack is sounding better and better.

I don't think canals should be able to connect to cities. But I DO think they they should be able to be used to cut the distance between contients. My last game I was on a Pangea map with coastline to the north and south. Only problem is that it was 29 turns to get from the south to the north. Thus if my northen fleet was anihalated (I finally got some ships up there) I would have to wait 29 turns for reinforcements. By that time the enemy could have hundereds of troops transported across.

How about this:

you can build canal on any flat terrain: plains, grasslands, deserts, floodplains (but not tundra)
no canal on hills and mountains
takes 50 turns to complete a tile (30 turns on rivers)
May only be 4 tiles long. Both ends must be on sea (different sea?)
Ships consume one full turn moving on them (you end one turn on entering, do nothing the next turn and may leave on the third)
On the do-nothing turn ships are sitting duck, may be bombarded, but cannot bombard. Can be protected by other units (land and air).
Land units may cross canals as if they were rough terrain (2 movement pts) unless of course (rail)roaded
If the terrain it is situated on is captured the canal is closed, has to be repaired. All ships in the canal are lost.
No fort, radar tower or outpost can be built on canal tile.
If the terrain of the canal is divided between to nations it cannot be used.

So far... :)

I love the canal idea

I bet its a lot harder to program than you think.

Are the canals unpassable by land units?
Might a continent get split?
Can any ship pass through?
Are the workers on land or water at the end of building?
What if you try to build two side-by-side?
etc...

Originally posted by Slax
I bet its a lot harder to program than you think.

I dont know, but sure it can be done...


Are the canals unpassable by land units?

No, they can pass as if it were rough terrain like hills

Might a continent get split?

No.

Can any ship pass through?

Yes, with the restrictions that I proposed above

Are the workers on land or water at the end of building?

On land of course. I imagine canals as a different land tiles with special possibilities.

What if you try to build two side-by-side?

You cannot build side by side. Canal can only go in a straight line max. of 4 tiles long.
etc... [/B]

Bretwalda, those are some great ideas! They are all what I would want in the game regarding canals. :goodjob:

I remember emailing suggestions about canals before PTW came out, but it was a little late. Will they look as these suggestions, or have they looked at these suggestions? (as you can see I am a little new here) Will this discussion eventually lead to them implemented?

Just a few things I would like to suggest:

* I think canals should be built on any terrain, it should just take longer for hills and mountains and such.

* The worker being consumed upon construction of a canal tile is very appropriate considering all the lives lost in the creating of the Panama Canal

* Canals should boost trade (commerce) and be given a culture value as well. Also, civs would have to be nice to be allowed entry, makes the diplo game as well as the naval aspect MUCH more interesting!

* Maybe canals should have to go through a city's radius or connect the central square....we can debate that. At least it would need to be under one cultural influence as suggested. Or the canal could be like a small wonder....maybe by building the wonder, it could become easier to build other canals.....have special canal workers?

* Canals should have a limit: Either to connect water tiles from up to 4 or 5 tiles away, or maybe only on top of where rivers exist. So the tile itself would not have the canal, but the canal would exist in between, much like the rivers are shown.

I prefer the former, since the Panama and Welland and Suez Canals are that type.


EDIT: I was just thinking, that the chunnels or huge one tile bridges could be essentially the same thing, just from land to land across a small strait of land.

Yes, Yes, Yes!

Canals came before railroads as a trade enhancer. Just have a length limit of 3 or 4 tiles. It would further add to the geographic strategy of trade and combat (assuming trade profits are limited by increasing distance).

Another idea.

In the states most of the early canals on the hilly east coast paralleled rivers so canals could be a river improvement (like railroads are a road improvement).