I notice many players have problem with keeping AI happy. So, I would like to highlight a small trick that helps slightly to keep AI happy. I had Gracious and Polite AI in GOTM20 even though I keep breaking MAs.

The trick is that whenever you sell something and the AIs couldn't afford it. Instead of just settle for less (i.e. just sell it for whatever they have), why not just give them gold to make up the difference.

As an example, say you can sell Gunpowder at 1400gc or the equivalent of it. But AI can only offer 20gpt. So, instead of just accepting that. First give AI 800 gold then follow by a 20gpt+800gc for gunpowder trade. I can get the AI relation gift bonus (worth 10) virtually to last to infinity by doing this since the AI never have enough gpt to pay me the "true market value" of my techs.

The other major factors would be not to raze any cities you capture. To know more about AI attitude, read Bamspeedy's post on AI attitude.

Now there's a cunning little trick. Good idea. :D

Very cunning Qitai...
So that's one of the tricks you used to get those early domination wins in GOTM19 and 20......
I'll remember this...

Originally posted by Qitai
The trick is that whenever you sell something and the AIs couldn't afford it. Instead of just settle for less (i.e. just sell it for whatever they have), why not just give them gold to make up the difference.

As an example, say you can sell Gunpowder at 1400gc or the equivalent of it. But AI can only offer 20gpt.

Great idea. But how do you know how much they are willing to pay, if they don't have the gold?

Rough estimates I am aware of.

(1) Monoploy tech - 150% - 200% Research cost.
(2) Non-monoploy Tech - 60% - 100% research cost depending on how many people has the tech
(3) If you just sold the tech to another AI, the "true market value" is just slightly diluted if the first wasn't sold at monopoly price or halfed and slightly diluted if it is.

To get the research cost, I have written down all the tech multiplier on the tech card that comes along with civ3. And a simple estimate is just Tech multiplier*Map Size factor*Difficulty.

Normally, to be on the safe side, I give until slightly less (~80%). And instead of giving the full 800 gold in one go, I give 100 gold by 100 gold (or some figures which is safe). And ask what would they exchange for my tech. The limit is near when you find they are not giving everything they have (just make sure the gc they have is in multiplies of 10). Usually they give 10%-15% more of what they offer. This process may take abit of time if you really want to avoid giving too much, but it is quite worthwhile if you want AI to be happy and 800 gold can last you for quite some time according to Bamspeedy's research.


As an additional note, if they are offering much less than the above estimates, you know they are probably researching that particular tech you are selling.

Also, I overgive sometimes, but usually over by not more than 30 gold. These can usually be easily recovered by selling maps every turn.

I already use this little trick every time. I only gift very small amounts (100-200g) but I'm selling cheap early techs anyway.

Of course if they are totally bankrupt you can just gift them the tech but often they have 25g (razed a barb village) and I would not sell them Mathematics for that. So I gift them 100 and sell Maths for 125.

In the here and now we give millions to billions to other governments to help their military, infrastructure, agriculture, etc. And do you think we expect for them to look to Amercan firms to supply the jets, power plants, chemicals, etc.? You bet! At the same time this certainly leads to relations that are better than having ignored them.

Big deals from other countries now come at the price of contracting services back to them. This is another way of providing goods and technology for cash.

Great idea. Have had CivIII for some time but just started playing it pretty hard now that my boys have taken a shine to it. Great opportunity for teaching.

This is a great idea!

Too often in my games I notice the ai never has money to buy my techs. This makes being a middleman impossible for me. Now this trick comes along and changes everything! :D

So simple, yet so effective! Thanks for this neat little trick Qitai. :)

Geat idea. Any other tricks to help us novices get above Reagent Level.

Great idea!

This is so simple its brilliant.

Cant wait to get it in motion.

Qitai, you are evil. Never thought of it, thanks a lot.

on an axillary note i tried my first emporer pacifist game today (despotism army designed only to control population and protect against barbarians--no army after republic). Theres actually some value in perfecting these strats. They are obviously helpful when your trying a more balanced beat em down approach.

Burroughs Economics!

"1: Never give anything away for nothing.
2: Never give more than you have to give (Always catch the buyer hungry and always make him wait).
3: Always take everything back if you possibly can."


--William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH

Apply these to the AI, you shall never go wrong.


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

I works, but IMHO it's just another exploit.
But only in case you want to keep the peace, of course! :)

Originally posted by Qitai
Also, I overgive sometimes, but usually over by not more than 30 gold. These can usually be easily recovered by selling maps every turn.

i always had the impression you never trade maps so the AI doesn't expand past your territory

GREAT tip by the way, although i rarely trade tach for anything other than a MPP, this will come in very handy.........:nya:

Originally posted by ybbor
i always had the impression you never trade maps so the AI doesn't expand past your territory
Nope! They'll walk right past you, maps or no maps. They know the map already, so you might as well get some money out of them when they are prepared to pay.

oh no, not another exploit :(

of course this is a great idea if you want to play on levels you usually can't reach. but this is a missuse of the AI programming and therefor an exploit.

same as suicide galleys, 40 turn polytheism gambits, etc.

It's ridiculous to call suicide galleys or 40 turn research an "exploit". These features were deliberately put into the game by the designers. They could have chosen to have galleys sink at sea 100% of the time, or to make the maximum research time be 100 turns. They didn't because they deliberately wanted to allow these strategies. You might disagree with that, but using these methods is just doing what the designers intended.

i define a human exploit as something, we can use as advantage and the AI doesn't.

the AI galley (or now also curragh) will NEVER end a turn on a tile which it has a slight chance of sinking. so if the coastal square of the other continent is just 5 tiles away, the AI can and will not go there... which leads to an advantage for the human player dominating the communications. i think it was just too complicated to add a "this is a tolerable risk just to reach the other side"-algorithm in the game

as for the research... that's not that bad and it's "modable". but seeing the AI research alphabet at approx. 60% and getting it in 39 turns and the human putting research down to 10% and getting the cash is another advantage. however, this has been improved in C3C by increasing maximal research time to 50%. so in a way they've admitted, that it was an exploit ;)


but anyway: this thread's topic is a clear exploit... giving money and taking it back and like that profiting 10 sympathy points (where alliances just give you 5) for free...

.......A Debatable one maybe! :lol:

Seriously, I think ONLY action considered to be a Firaxis programming BUG is an exploit.

For example, it would have been easy enough to program the AI to NOT receive gifts of money.

If we play by "Firaxis Rules", the Playing Field for ALL players is level..........why tilt it? ;)

How can it be an exploit? The civ is getting the tech at much reduced cost than he should of been paying. The Civ starts out annoyed and you give him money to get to polite. That's not an exploit, is it? Gifting is allowed. Now he has cash to buy your tech at fair market price. Selling a tech at market value is not an exploit.
If anything this method of diplomacy fixes the programming that does not make the Civ polite when you settle for giving him a great deal. I know I would be gracious to a Civ if they ever gave me a deal on the same terms the Civs give to one another.

ok, i see i won't be able to convince anyone ;)

but i'll try one last time.

just picture this example:
A (you) and B (the AI). you have a tech lead, B has 100 gold. that tech you want to sell would be worth 300 gold.

scenario 1: you give him the tech for all he has (100 gold)
scenario 2: you give him 100 gold and sell the tech for all he has now (200 gold)

the NET result from financial and commercial point of view is EXACTLY the same. B ends up with the tech, you have 100 gold more.
but in scenario 2, he'll be 10 gratutude-points more in favour of you.

now, exploit or not... there IS something wrong in this... or not?



to take a real life example (but i don't want to let the thread go off topic): iraq will need rebuilding after the war. they're get some serious funding from other nations, especially from the US. but most big contracts have been done with US companies (halliburton and similar). imagine these companies were 100% US-governement controlled (so all the money would go back to the US and not some enterprises): can you see the iraquies (sp?) suddenly loving the americans just because they got money to spend on them again?

Originally posted by eventhorizon
ok, i see i won't be able to convince anyone ;)
........OR, we will not convince you!? :lol:

Originally posted by eventhorizon
just picture this example:
A (you) and B (the AI). you have a tech lead, B has 100 gold. that tech you want to sell would be worth 300 gold.

scenario 1: you give him the tech for all he has (100 gold)
scenario 2: you give him 100 gold and sell the tech for all he has now (200 gold)

the NET result from financial and commercial point of view is EXACTLY the same. B ends up with the tech, you have 100 gold more.
but in scenario 2, he'll be 10 gratutude-points more in favour of you.

now, exploit or not... there IS something wrong in this... or not?

Think of it this way. If someone sell you a tech which is worth at least 500 gold to you for only just 100 gold, wouldn't you in favor this person more than before?

ofcourse. but not more than if he gives me 200 so i can buy it for 300... it's the net that counts, not the absolutes...

eventhorizon,

I think what you're missing is that in the real world, diplomacy is precisely about these kinds of tricks: if leaders simply followed the most direct approach to what they wanted, we never would have had such famous cases as Neville Chamberlain declaring "peace in our time" as he handed Czech over to a dictator. The greatest diplomats are the ones who can steal your land and leave you thinking they're generous, friendly people whereas lesser diplomats might make you aware that your land is being taken.

I don't see this as an exploit - it's just an approach that allows you to be a smoother diplomat.

In other terms, let me give you an example.

Scenario 1: Turn 1: You want to improve your relation with cautious neighbor x. You give him a gift of 200 and he's now polite. Turn 4: You discover Gunpowder and want to make some money. You discover that neighbor x has 600 gold and sell him gunpowder for 600. He is still polite.

Scenario 2: Turn 1: You decide that you don't care about neighbor x. You keep your money and he's still cautious. Turn 4: You discover Gunpowder and want to make some money. You see that you could also improve relations with neighbor x. You give him a gift of 200 and he's now polite. You then sell him gunpowder for 600. He is still polite.

Scenario 3: Turn 1: You decide that you don't care about neighbor x. You keep your money and he's still cautious. Turn 4: You discover Gunpowder and want to make some money. You sell neighbor x gunpowder for 400 and he remains cautious.

You're trying to tell me that Scenario 3 is somehow more "legitimate" than scenario 1 or 2? It seems that you're worried about people's intent to "trick" their enemies. Diplomacy isn't pretty, and the only difference between 1 and 2 is intent. Of course this isn't an exploit; it's just a cynical intent inserted into a legitimate scenario, and no programmers can (or should) force intent, especially in a game about war, peace, diplomacy and domination.

Originally posted by eventhorizon
ok, i see i won't be able to convince anyone ;)



I am on your side. Event in reality, there is no such a free money to other governments, US didnt give tanks to UK during WWII for free (UK had to pay for some amount), and US didnt give money to Pakistan for free either. Pakistan has to return the money someday (with interest??)

It is just quite more complex to make program that keep tracking where the money come from, and where the money goes... It's much simple to make program something like...

You give me some money, and I'll thank 4 it....
You sell something that I need, and I'll thank 4 it...

So you come up with "I'll thank 8 it"
:rolleyes:

binyo

I've been under impression that donating (or selling undeprice) tech would give me grat points, so thanks for opening my eyes !

IMHO this is a BUG (not getting grat points for tech donation), and the original article describes a workaround to get the grat points I should have.

I have not seen an article on the AI bidding/valuating mechanism, but to my knowledge the AI never donates technology, if it can't get a deal worth the valuation, it rejects the deal. And this goes for AI-human and AI-AI deals, but AI-AI discount is taken into valuation (AI trade rate - level parameter).
Why should maxing out goodwill of a donation be an exploit, when the AI never donates a thing? If we strictly follow the "we can use as advantage and the AI doesn't" -rule, the whole concept of donating should be banned.

I agree with eventhorizon that the two scenarios shuld give same result, but do not see this as exploit.

ps. if you have both the money and the tech You are playng a level too low....

pps.sometimes I think they make the AI so stupid to give us the kiks....

Originally posted by Karl_t_great
IMHO this is a BUG (not getting grat points for tech donation), and the original article describes a workaround to get the grat points I should have.

....

I agree with eventhorizon that the two scenarios shuld give same result, but do not see this as exploit.
I completely agree.

pps.sometimes I think they make the AI so stupid to give us the kiks.... So true. We should always remember that Firaxis want to sell copies of their games, and so they make them entertaining, and design them to help us to feel superior :cool:

Wonderful idea, must say. Never though of it myself. I sometimes have the problem of not being good enough friends with the rivals. I usually never want to give anything away either. This way it all works out, good job. :)

Outright donation of tech will get the tech value of grat point. So, if it is an outright donation of tech, you do not need to use this trick. Grat points are lost only when you sell undervalue.

Originally posted by Qitai
I notice many players have problem with keeping AI happy. So, I would like to highlight a small trick that helps slightly to keep AI happy. I had Gracious and Polite AI in GOTM20 even though I keep breaking MAs.

The trick is that whenever you sell something and the AIs couldn't afford it. Instead of just settle for less (i.e. just sell it for whatever they have), why not just give them gold to make up the difference.

As an example, say you can sell Gunpowder at 1400gc or the equivalent of it. But AI can only offer 20gpt. So, instead of just accepting that. First give AI 800 gold then follow by a 20gpt+800gc for gunpowder trade. I can get the AI relation gift bonus (worth 10) virtually to last to infinity by doing this since the AI never have enough gpt to pay me the "true market value" of my techs.

It's just another of a zillion exploits that all spoil the game IMHO.
Not for me, thanks.
It has nothing to do with strategy.

sorry, i forgot to check this thread for a long time after missing the email-notifiction.

i guess the main problem now is the gratitude system of civ3. someone here at CFC (i'm usually hanging around in other places ;)) did an analysis and you can get permanent diplomacy point JUST by donating money. and maximal 100g.

100g gives you the full 10 points.
giving 10000g in exchange for 1g: 0 points
giving away ALL techs, gpt, luxuries, etc. for free: 0 points

now 100g is a lot in the first few rounds. you can buy a tech or two for that price. but in the later game you can have a turnover of well over 1000g per turn...

so i want to reenforce my opinion stated above about the expoit. the problem is how civ3 is programmed. using the weaknesses IS an exploit to me.

the small trick explained in this thread is nothing else than a variation of the exploit.



oh, and yes, qitai, you're right. having more money and tech could mean we're playing on a too low level ;) ... but even at sid level one or the other civ may stay behind (eg starting in the desert or in the tundra)

Originally posted by Ribannah


It's just another of a zillion exploits that all spoil the game IMHO.
Not for me, thanks.
It has nothing to do with strategy.

You have a point there. Of course, I don't think it's such a bad exploit. I mean if you have some really cool tech that some civ can't afford, if you then proceed to give them the money to afford it, shouldn't you deserve some credit from them? :)

No, they should instead become very suspicious of that new tech. :D

Originally posted by eventhorizon
oh, and yes, qitai, you're right. having more money and tech could mean we're playing on a too low level ;) ... but even at sid level one or the other civ may stay behind (eg starting in the desert or in the tundra)

I think you mean Karl_t_great when you made that comment.

Anyway, you guys seems so work up over this. Just don't use it if you consider it as an exploit. The purpose of this is to help players who always have problems with annoyed AI. I believe you know how to managed AI well without this --> like killing entire civs with an archer. :eek:

........Maybe it's an exploit and maybe it isn't!.....Some people say yes, some say no..........WHO DECIDES? ;)

If it's a CFC GOTM or HOF game, for example, the CFC game Administrator decides (Ainwood or Aeson).......and unless they decide against the "exploit"......it's NOT an exploit (for their game submissions anyway.)

Seems to me a Good Rule Of Thumb is to PLAY BY FIRAXIS RULES (They did write the darn game after all!).......When they program a bug........they fix it with a patch later.

So this way, we can ALL play by the same rules.........UNLESS you would rather just argue the case INSTEAD of playing the game! :lol:

Originally posted by Qitai
The purpose of this is to help players who always have problems with annoyed AI

The point is that you are not helping them to play a better game.
I don't care what you do in your own games, but please do not present an exploit as a strategy. If you want to teach, teach right.

The reason I'm a bit harsh here, is because I know you to be a good player who really has something to teach, and I expect to see a good many strategy articles by you! :)

Originally posted by Ribannah
The point is that you are not helping them to play a better game.

I think another point is that you're being arrogant and obnoxious. If you don't like this tactic, fine, don't use it. But no one appointed you the judge of what is appropriate and what isn't.

Originally posted by Ribannah


The point is that you are not helping them to play a better game.
I don't care what you do in your own games, but please do not present an exploit as a strategy. If you want to teach, teach right.


Just understanding how a certain aspect of the game works will ever help to improve.:)

What's an exploit and what not should be decided on everyone's own.
E.g. some people even use reloading as strategy, some call it a lame exploit.

Originally posted by Grille Just understanding how a certain aspect of the game works will ever help to improve.:)Agreed.

What's an exploit and what not should be decided on everyone's own.Hmm, I'm not too happy with that thought. I think a good definition of what an exploit is should be possible. Not easy, but possible. Whether you use it or not still remains your own choice.

E.g. some people even use reloading as strategy, some call it a lame exploit. The latter I'd say, if you use it to fool yourself!
But it can also be a learning tool, provided that you're aware of what you are doing. The best use is probably for the opening stage but even then it is hard to ignore the knowledge you have of the map etc. Later on the Random Number Generator clouds everything.

This is not an exploit, it's a game deficiency, like many of the other game deficiencies. If you sell an item of for under the market value or give an item to an AI player they should be happier with you (or think your a fool at least :) ). Having to give them money so they can pay the fair price for an item (tech, ROP, peace,...) just gets around a little programming laziness and rewards you for your diligence. IMO.

I think people use the word 'exploit' too often. Just because I wouldn't play a certain way doesn't make that way an exploit, it's just different. It's not surprising that taking the same steps in 2 different orders results in two different outcomes: the same is true in real life! If the sequence taken falls within the game mechanics, it should receive the benefit of the doubt unless a player receives a demonstrably unfair advantage. (Several examples of these have been documented elsewhere.)

Civ3 is a very complicated game, and 95% of what I've learned about it has come from these forums. I greatly appreciate the players' sharing of these types of experience and insight, because I may or may not (probably not) figure them out myself. Civ3 also rewards the micro-manager, the stickler for details, and I'd consider this 'trick' another example of this.

It's a good trick. But sometimes even you give the AI gift, they still pay a small amout of money because of depreciation of tech. So you will lose money.

Originally posted by southstar
It's a good trick. But sometimes even you give the AI gift, they still pay a small amout of money because of depreciation of tech. So you will lose money.

In that case, don't give them more money than what you can take back. If you not sure about the real value of the tech, use the Tech calculator (the link is in Cartouche Bee 's sig, two posts above).

I've tryed to use this once and dind't worked... The ai got my gift and become happy but when I did the proposal of the techs + the amount of money i've gived they did not acept...

What i did wrong?

sorry my bad english lol

you just gave them too much money!

Give them money in stages - and check that they will still trade it all back to you. Then the most that you can lose is the amount that you just gave them.

Is this the only way to know how many money i must give them?

No various calculators will give you what a tech is worth in trade, but often I will forget one of the factors, so I just use - well I can afford to lose 50G so I will give them that and see if they will give it all back to me.

Ok... Thanks RFHolloway!

Why to keep AI Happy? What are you proposing Qitai, is to offer hard discovered technology almost for free. If you'd play at the fifth level you'll never win this way! Technology is one of the most important advantages! Better play chess with AI and make good alliances strategies than throwing out your advantage. If you have the interest to maintain good relations with one or more of AI players, make commerce with them. Trade with them luxuries, resources, technology, rights of passage, mutual protection pact, embargos or even military alliances and you'll have peace with them. Never give technology for free! And when there is a war going on try to balance the power between the teams engaged, except you are the strongest. A well balanced power system between the AI players, gives you the opportunity to become the strongest and ultimately the winner.

Welcome to the CFC Forum, absolut_nonsens. :band:

Why to keep AI Happy? What are you proposing Qitai, is to offer hard discovered technology almost for free. If you'd play at the fifth level you'll never win this way!I'm not sure Qitai would want to play DOWN to the 5th Level!....He has 2 Golds + 1 Silver in the GOTM! (viz. Has Beaten ALL the best CFC Civ Players in the World!) :lol:

Back to the Subject at hand, I think you are missing the point ............You keep the Ai Happy with YOU so that you can more easily Trade/MA/ROP etc. in the future.

First, you are in a position where you WANT to trade with the Ai and it's just a matter of getting as MUCH as you can from them.........Sooooo, if you give them some money and then get it ALL back AND an increase in ATTITUDE from them towards you when you trade, Why Not do it? ;)

Just reread this thread - I've been using Qitai's trick regularly when I need to keep the AI happy - that is, until I'm ready to knife them... :evil:

I really don't understand Ribannah's contention that this is supposed to be an exploit and hinders noobs from learning good strategy.. :confused:

Good diplomacy is obviously a must at higher levels - you can't possibly be at war with everyone all the time at Emperor or higher and have a prayer of winning. Thus, it's an integral part of strategy!

Giving a tech for less than the market value should result in an attitude bonus from the AI. Since the programming doesn't give it, Qitai's trick just rectifies an imbalance, doesn't create a new one, IMO.

Another matter is the peaking of the attitude bonus at 100 gp regardless of era - this is an obvious bug that should be rectified, it's totally illogical!
Such a limit shouldn't be hardcoded but variable by era, or maybe even by turn - or additionally by difficulty level.

Personally, I use this gambit only in the ancient age, where 100 gp is still a lot of money. From the Middle Ages on I'm usually strong enough I don't need it anyway, so I don't feel I'm exploiting the 100gp-bug.

I give them gold, then i get back my gold by selling my tech for their gold plus the gold I gave them... and they got even polite or gracious before.

I think the FLAW is that the other Civ should be already more polite towards you if you sell them the tech stuff for a low amount of gold.

This extra step is kind of an exploit, but I use it. I would however like it the way I described the issue above -> they should be gracious for a cheap tech IMO, without such little tricks.

I think it is an exploit, but I use it from time to time. Some people use palace jumping which I consider an exploit, but well - it is a single player game, all what they want to do is THEIR decision. I have no problems cheating an AI. :)