President: donsig
Vice-President: CivGeneral

Citizens are invited to post any comments, questions or concerns here.

Turnchat 170 AD, Thursday, July 3rd. 0030 GMT (Wednesday, July 2nd, 8:30pm EST) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57416)

Term 2 Presidential thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54877)

Uh... Mr. Donsig Truman... i dont think that the demogame is having its third Perm...

Message from the Jade House

Donsig, Are you going to let the Vice President play the save during the Turn chats?

I've got an idea for this. What if you allowed one or two Designated Vice President Turnchats, where CG was the Designated Player, like Shaitan did for CT in Term 1?

Originally posted by Stuck_As_a_Mac
Uh... Mr. Donsig Truman... i dont think that the demogame is having its third Perm...

:lol:

Originally posted by CivGeneral
Message from the Jade House

Donsig, Are you going to let the Vice President play the save during the Turn chats?

The VP will play the save and run the turn chat whenever I am unable to do so. I don't expect any absences but then again the unexpected is known to happen. Please be patient CG, you have been a dedicated servant of the citizens for a long time. I know you are disappointed this term but hang in there and keep up the good work. Your day will come. :goodjob:

We have 17 cities. 14 of them have no culture. Six are not defended by spearmen. We are not at peace but have 24 legions and 8 warriors. The Aztecs have two escorted settlers south of Memphis and they are also encroaching on the area south of Regia Doughnutia. They are building the Great wall as are the Greeks. The Babylonians are already in possesion of the Western Island.

Our cities pale when compared to the likes of Washington, Babylon, Tenochtitlan, Athens and Berlin.

Memphis is in danger of revolt.

It is 170 AD and still ruled by a despot!

We have enough legions. We do not need a navy at this time. We need settlers and spearmen. We need a few more workers. We need culture in our cities. We need a king!

I offer these demographics here due to the domestic leader run-off.

Great graphics Mr. President. Again, Congrats!

As a citizen, I'd like to make a suggestion that was actually first suggested by Rik Meleet. That being we wait a turn before descending into anarchy. This extra turn in Despotism will give us the Settler in Regia Doughnutia to move towards its destination during Anarchy. Waiting the 1 turn will also give us a Worker out of Xak Tsaroth. Two good reasons for waiting 1 turn. :)

I am currently in the process of gathering information about the impact of our impending revolution. I'm still waiting for some departmental and provincial threads to open. I will be asking each governor if there are any projects in their respective provinces that should be completed before our revolution. I will also be asking the various departmental leaders for their assessments of the effects of anarchy on their departments. For instance I have asked the Science Leader about his opinion regarding the importance of completing our current research before the revolution. (BTW, congrats on your election to that post Cyc! :) ) There are also two other factors I see to consider when timing our revolution: Memphis and the two Aztec settlers south of that city. We may need to delay the revolution until the resistance in Memphis is brought under control. Also, we have not discussed what we should do if the Aztec settlers do not turn back but build a city where they are.

Please place a link to the respective term 2 departmental or provincial thread in the first post of your term 3 departmental or provincial thread. Also, please go back to the term 2 thread and post a link to your new term 3 thread. :)

A major goal of this administration is to bring the focus of the demogame back to the forums in an effort to increase citizen participation and enjoyment. I ask all governors and department leaders to include pertinent and updated information in their respective government threads. The trade department thread should have a screen shot of the trade advisor screen. The science thread should have a shot of the science advisor screen, etc. The domestic thread should have a shot of the demographics as well as the domsetic advisor screen. Provincial threads should have a current map of the province as well as a list of the cities in the province, current and proposed build queues, etc. Please see the Esquiline provincial thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57449) for a fine example.

Leaders (and this term includes governors), please remember that you are leaders. You can delegate some of this work. You have deputies. You can also recruit and appoint citizens who are willing to post this relevent information in your threads!

Mr. President, the idea of a Maginot Line has been discussed in the citizen's Subforum and the general consensus is to use the map in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=57525) (the one by Rik Meleet). Would it be possible to try and implement this "Line" during today's t/c. I know we have to deal with those Aztec Settlers first, but I believe we'll have enough Legionaries to put this "Line" into action.

Next turn chat thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57647)

@ last post: there are many who agree we should postpone t/c's for a while
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57646

Originally posted by bacon king
@ last post: there are many who agree we should postpone t/c's for a while
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57646

I do not agree with them. The next turn chat has been scheduled and the turn chat instruction thread has been opened. The chat will proceed at the appointed time. :)

Donsig, I implore you to hold a citizen poll concerning whether we should halt the DG for a time. There are many flaws in the constitution, and it is sadly lacking. I request that you please address these situations promptly. It would be prudent to listen to these requests and try to stave off the chaos that is coming. Please don't let this DG be ruined. I know you don't want chaos, you're generally rational. But please, listen to people.

Please don't let this DG be ruined. seems too late to save the game. speaking strictly as an outsider,.

Bah - nonsense!

This is the most excitement I've seen in a while - everything was getting a bit boring. For good or bad, this is stirred things up here, and gotten everyone talking.

It might represent the last time Donsig gets elected, but you know, I'm gonna enjoy the ride!

Originally posted by ravensfire
Bah - nonsense!

This is the most excitement I've seen in a while - everything was getting a bit boring. For good or bad, this is stirred things up here, and gotten everyone talking.

It might represent the last time Donsig gets elected, but you know, I'm gonna enjoy the ride!
Absolutely! :lol: :goodjob:

same here!

i say: we MUST go with the things he does... we elected him! people wanted him to do it despite the fact that they knew donsigs "methods" ;-)

i say: pi him and see the result of the pi... until then we must act according to our laws (even if they are not good) and let him be president... if he is removed by the pi, then we must live with the results of his turnchats and make the best of it...

Mr President

I have read the chatlog and 1 thing caught my eye (besides it being an "interesting" chat). There are several cities yet unnamed.

Can you find out who is next in line and then who is and then etc.

I think as Governor It would soon be my turn. I wouldn't want the laborers and citizens of that city suffering under a wrongly named city.

Your Governor,
Rik Meleet

I think as temporary culturaal leader it is my turn.

I do not know the order for naming cities. I do know there are two that were founded last chat that were not named by citizens and we have three more settlers that will most likely make cities during the next turn chat.

Curu, you already named Ingolemondor.

I will look into city naming order when I get a chance.

Out of curiosity (and because I couldn't find it in 2 minutes of searching), who is supposed to maintain the naming order list?

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
Out of curiosity (and because I couldn't find it in 2 minutes of searching), who is supposed to maintain the naming order list?

-- Ravensfire

I don't think we have anyone specifically in charge of it. In the first place, it is a custom and has no legal grounding in this demogame. By that I mean there is no rule in place for naming cities. Many of our citizens have forgotten that we do not live under the old Code of Laws and Code of Standards from the last demogame. We have only our constitution to guide us.

Someone please send me a list of who has named a city to date, and i shall post and make a thread.

We have built four new cities. Two of these form the Great Canal in Esquiline province. Another has been built on the Great Bay southeast of Regia Doughnutia. The last was also built on the bay south of Memphis. We currently have three settlers that should be able to build cities during the next turn chat. This was accomplished in part because the further recruitment of legions has been halted.

We now have our own currency and our sages say we have entered a new era. Temples are being built across our land even as our religious leaders ponder the idea of one supreme being.

Our government is in chaos and anarchy rules. The cause? WAR has come once again to our country! The Aztecs built the city of Chalco on our side of the Great Bay. In my opinion this was only the first of what would have been a flood of Aztec settlers building cities on our side of the bay. Thus, when Montezuma growled that we must remove our glorious Legions from his lands, I refused though it meant war. Chalco was destroyed at the dear cost of two of our glorious Legions. We managed to neutralize another Aztec settler south of Memphis. In an effort to prosecute this war favorably we have allied with Egypt. Our allies have captured two Aztec settlers thus far. Had this war not happened there is a great possibility that we would now see four Aztec cities on our lands. The lands south of Regia Doughnutia seem secure for now. Our warrior scout has coe across only two jaguar warriors thus far and one of them has been eliminated. We currently have three legions in the area. We have also signed RoPs with both Greece and Egypt. The latter has allowed us to move nine legions into souther Egypt where they have made contact with Aztec troops. The Aztecs have taken and Egyptian city further south.

The Americans have declared war on us. Their swordsmen have killed our two warriors that were making their way home through Greece. Our valiant warriors did not succumb until destroying one of the enemy units. Our Greek neighbors saw this and allied with us against America. Egypt has also allied with us in that war and we have begun supplying the Egyptians with horses.

The Russians have established a city on our continent across the mountains on the northern shore. A few of our legions are tied up in an attempt to block a Greek settler from passing through.

I realize these wars are unpopular. I realize our people want to fill our lands with our cities. I realize our people want to build great buildings and great wonders in our cities. I realize our people want a more productive form of government. The sole purpose of these wars is to enable me, as the country's leader, to provide what the people want.

I ask our citizens to look at the progress that has already been made. Four new cites with three more to come soon. Temples being built. Our first harbor almost complete. A new form of government on the horizon. My term as your leader is still in its infancy. If you are to judge the results of my leadership so soon then please look at the progress made in this short time. Is it not what the people want? Does an unpopular war outweigh these accomplishments? Also remember this: these wars will be over long before the anger about them subsides.

Originally posted by donsig
Our government is in chaos and anarchy rules. The cause? WAR has come once again to our country! The Aztecs built the city of Chalco on our side of the Great Bay. In my opinion this was only the first of what would have been a flood of Aztec settlers building cities on our side of the bay. Thus, when Montezuma growled that we must remove our glorious Legions from his lands, I refused though it meant war.

I ask our citizens to look at the progress that has already been made. Four new cites with three more to come soon. Temples being built. Our first harbor almost complete. A new form of government on the horizon. My term as your leader is still in its infancy. If you are to judge the results of my leadership so soon then please look at the progress made in this short time. Is it not what the people want? Does an unpopular war outweigh these accomplishments? Also remember this: these wars will be over long before the anger about them subsides.

A couple comments. First, clarify how exactly the war started. Did you simply refuse to remove our units, or did you directly declare war? Secondly, about the last paragraph. I have little doubt that you played the game itself skillfully. However, your methods for going about this, particularly with regard to the will of the citizenry, are apalling, and I, among others, demand to know your reasoning behind going against the will of the citizenry.

Originally posted by donsig
I realize these wars are unpopular. I realize our people want to fill our lands with our cities. I realize our people want to build great buildings and great wonders in our cities. I realize our people want a more productive form of government. The sole purpose of these wars is to enable me, as the country's leader, to provide what the people want.


Remeber that what our peple want, before all else, is to participate actively in the game process. Giving people what they want...if lust and hate is the candy, if blood and love taste so sweet then we give 'em what they want... following the will of the citizenry, either in the forums or in the turn chat is the first responsibility of the designated player, wether this "gives them what they want" or not is not as important as letting every one a chance at saying it, not just letting the DP assume he/she knows it.

Ehecatl Atzin

Originally posted by Noldodan

A couple comments. First, clarify how exactly the war started. Did you simply refuse to remove our units, or did you directly declare war? Secondly, about the last paragraph. I have little doubt that you played the game itself skillfully. However, your methods for going about this, particularly with regard to the will of the citizenry, are apalling, and I, among others, demand to know your reasoning behind going against the will of the citizenry.

We had a number of Legions attempting to block the two escorted Aztec settlers but our blockade was not complete. One settler did move north but the other moved south and built Chalco. So we had a number of Legions inside Chalco's borders. I chose not to move them. Please note that there were no turn chat instructions from the military department. The next turn Montezuma demanded we remove our troops. Our choices were to automatically move or declare war. I declared war as I thought it was in our best interests.

Please note this thread concerning possible Aztec settlement. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57491) Note that the first post properly states that I favored war if the Aztecs settled. Here is a summary of what our citizens said:

Cyc: No War!
donsig: Do not be afraid of a war.
Rik Meleet: This war can be delayed and therefore it should.
Donovan Zoi: I think we could pursue a possible war ...
Ehecatl Atzin: The aztecs are notorious for expanding their empire...
conehead234: i say that we should cripple everyone on the continant
Vander: The sooner we hit them the better.

This does not seem to me to show overwhelming citizen disapproval of such a war. I do not see how I can seriously be accused of an apalling disregard of the will of the citizens.

Originally posted by Ehecatl Atzin

following the will of the citizenry, either in the forums or in the turn chat is the first responsibility of the designated player, wether this "gives them what they want" or not is not as important as letting every one a chance at saying it, not just letting the DP assume he/she knows it.

Ehecatl Atzin

Now we come to the heart of the matter. How is the DP to know the will of the people in the absence of properly posted turn chat instructions? Does the DP merely poll those citizens who happen to be at the turn chat? I see no basis for thinking that those citizens at the turn chat at any given time represent our registered or active citizens as a whole. If we are truly to give everyone a chance to have their say then it is imperative that we rely on the forums and not the turn chats. Note that many of those who were most angered by the war did not even bother to post their sentiments before the turn chat started! They had the opportunity to do so. They had the chance to speak their minds in the forums, but they did not. Why is this so? Is it because they are used to wielding more than their fair share of power by attending the turn chats? Why should I, as DP, poll only those at the chat and ignore those who posted their wishes in the forum but could not attend the chat? These are the questions we need to be asking ourselves.

Originally posted by donsig


Now we come to the heart of the matter. How is the DP to know the will of the people in the absence of properly posted turn chat instructions? Does the DP merely poll those citizens who happen to be at the turn chat? I see no basis for thinking that those citizens at the turn chat at any given time represent our registered or active citizens as a whole. If we are truly to give everyone a chance to have their say then it is imperative that we rely on the forums and not the turn chats. Note that many of those who were most angered by the war did not even bother to post their sentiments before the turn chat started! They had the opportunity to do so. They had the chance to speak their minds in the forums, but they did not. Why is this so? Is it because they are used to wielding more than their fair share of power by attending the turn chats? Why should I, as DP, poll only those at the chat and ignore those who posted their wishes in the forum but could not attend the chat? These are the questions we need to be asking ourselves.

The DP's job is to follow the leaders turn chat instructions. You our over-stepping your duties as president when you try to take over a leader's job. Which you have clearly done.

Alot of people supported the war. I am one of them. That still did not give you any right to declare war when it had not been properly discussed and polled on the forums.

Um.. Donsig, if you wanted the people's opinions who couldn't attend the chat, you would have stopped the chat, saved it, posted the save, and started a discussion. A little helpful reminder for next time :rolleyes: :p

Originally posted by donsig

Why is this so? Is it because they are used to wielding more than their fair share of power by attending the turn chats? Why should I, as DP, poll only those at the chat and ignore those who posted their wishes in the forum but could not attend the chat? These are the questions we need to be asking ourselves.

There are such things called spot votes.. but that is besides the point, the chat should have stopped when something as important as an alliance with the Egyptians presented itself, that "simple" decision has trown our nation into a 20 turn commitment that I doubt we can mantain; such a thing should have been discussed in the forums beforehand, how? by stoping the game and returning to the forums (even if it meant not having four new cities by now) and the game wasn't even stoped when the americans declared war, something that again, should have been taken to the forums so everyone could discuss it.
You ask why should the people in the turn chat make all the decisions? I agree with you, they shouldn't; that is what the forums are for; but then again, how can those people in the t/c voice their opinions when they are all devoiced in one swoop?
I support the war against the aztecs; still do, I do not, however, support this "that's why you voted for me" retoric.

Ehecatl Atzin

I would just like to remind people that discussion on the rights and wrongs of the last turn chat is embargoed and the whole matter is sub judice. Please see the Judicial thread for further information. Thankyou for your co operation in this. :)
(Just to prempt the question, the Mods will enforce this.)

I agree with Peri. You should please save your comments for the PI when it starts. Even me.

So I request our President to name the south-canal city.

The name I would give the city is "Klixus-Major".

Thank you.

@ehecatl:
just one question from the chat office

...but then again, how can those people in the t/c voice their opinions when they are all devoiced in one swoop?
how come they were devoiced? please pm me with details.

I believe that the next people to name cities would be:

Zarn - FA Leader(T3) names existing city
Rik Meleet - Governor of Esquiline(T3 incumbent) names existing city
Gingerbread Man - Governor of Capitoline(T3 new)
Vander - Public Defender(T3)
Fionn McCumhall - Judge Advocate(T1)
Almightyjosh - Domestic Leader(T2) [unless resigning his post before term's end makes him ineligible]
All Term 3 deputies
All Term 1 deputies who have yet to name a city
All Term 2 deputies who have yet to name a city
The citizenry

I believe that this is the way it has always been, though PD Vander may be before the governors. Let me know what you think.

I believe that the next people to name cities would be:

Zarn - FA Leader(T3) names existing city
Rik Meleet - Governor of Esquiline(T3 incumbent) names existing city
Gingerbread Man - Governor of Capitoline(T3 new)
Noldodan - Governor of Aventine(T3 new)
Vander - Public Defender(T3)
Fionn McCumhall - Judge Advocate(T1)
Almightyjosh - Domestic Leader(T2) [unless resigning his post before term's end makes him ineligible]
All Term 3 deputies
All Term 1 deputies who have yet to name a city
All Term 2 deputies who have yet to name a city
The citizenry

I believe that this is the way it has always been, though PD Vander may be before the governors. I really don't see a need to deviate from precedent. Let me know what you think.

I believe the you are forgetting a certain *cough* governor in your list. *cough* Sorry, I have a horrible cough today.

Thanks, Noldodan. Apparently, I am a bit under the weather myself..... :lol: Problem fixed.

Donovan Zoi's naming list seems fine. Rik Meleet has already posted his desire to rename South Canal Town. Zarn has naming rights to the other city on the Bay. I think it is currently named Bay Town. We will have three more cities (at least) next turn chat so Gingerbread Man, Noldodan and Vander should post the names they want to use. If they don't I will make up a name to be used until they decide on the name they want at which time I will rename the city for them.

Originally posted by donsig
We will have three more cities (at least) next turn chat so Gingerbread Man, Noldodan and Vander should post the names they want to use. If they don't I will make up a name to be used until they decide on the name they want at which time I will rename the city for them.

I for one shall be naming my city only after I see its site.

Originally posted by Noldodan

I for one shall be naming my city only after I see its site.

That is not a problem Governor Noldodan. I just wonder at this point if the citizens will decide before the chat where they want the three new cities to be...

Well, the Domestic Department is the one that handles that ;).

Well, I have not had citizen input on this, but here are my views on city placement. Two good sites in Aventine. One is in the forest to the north of the horses on the bay, and the other is the hill to the north of the dyes, or possibly the grassland to the west of the iron.

Originally posted by Noldodan
Well, I have not had citizen input on this, but here are my views on city placement. Two good sites in Aventine. One is in the forest to the north of the horses on the bay, and the other is the hill to the north of the dyes, or possibly the grassland to the west of the iron.

Good sites indeed but they are not in Aventine. We need a new province! The exact southern border of Aventine has not yet been fixed but the city of Bootia is not in Aventine province. I suggest a new province that will run from the southern border of Aventine and includes all the land on the peninsula south and southeast of Aventine province.

We need another Governor/Senator! Can we get nominations going ASAP?

The Fanatican Election office

Donsig,

The Election office has heard your words. We shall take care of the Nomination and Election process. Please let me know.

Thanks,
CivGeneral, Election Office Director

Originally posted by CivGeneral
The Fanatican Election office

Donsig,

The Election office has heard your words. We shall take care of the Nomination and Election process. Please let me know.

Thanks,
CivGeneral, Election Office Director

Yes, please move forward on this! We should also get a discussion going to formally define this new province. Can you start a discussion about that as well?

Ill Quickly Post up the Nominations and the Discussion.

From the Office of the President:

I have spent over three hours today attempting to find a solution to our recent constitutional crisis. Three hours of debates and negotiations with the group that has instigated a public investigation of me has resulted only in more accusations against me. I have now been accused of bribery. I offered to not run for re-election and to support CivGeneral in a bid for the presidency if the PI against me were to be dropped. I made the offer because CivGeneral is the one who made the charges and has the power to drop them. The PI is not productive to the growth of our country or our government. The PI is also on very shaky gound legally and frankly should be thrown out by the JA. Had CivGeneral been able to see this and withdrawn the charges in an effort to spare our nation of the tiresome and distracting issue I would have gladly supported him for the highest office as he would have deserved my support (and yours as well) for putting his country first. Instead my gesture has been considered a bribe and that is where I have drawn the line.

Mark these words: I do not need to bribe anyone. I fully expect that my actions will be found to have been legal and I will be exonerrated from these frivoulous charges. I had only hoped to end the process quicky for the sake of our country.

In the face of these insidious accusations of bribery I have decided to suspend the use of turn chats until all charges filed against me are resolved. The game will continue without turn chats. I will play the game off-line using whatever legal instructions are posted in the turn chat instruction thread. I will keep game notes as required by the constutition and post them with the saves. Since there is such disagreement between the President and certain citizens over what constitutes legal instructions from a leader and since such disagreement has led to the filing of a public investigation against the President I see no way to continue the game using turn chats until the disagreement is resolved. I regret taking this step but feel I must do so.

The game will next be played Wednesday morning, July 9. Game play instructions must be posted by 9am (EDT), Wednesday, July 9. I belive that is 1300 GDT (though I may be wrong about the Greenwich time).

Next game play instruction thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57892)

The Kingdom of Fanatica was proclaimed in the year 320 AD. :king: There ws rejoicing throughout the kingdom as donsig led our glorious Legions through Egypt in search of the evil Aztecs who once dared settle on our side of the Great Bay. Our Legions in Egypt first made their way to Pi-Rameses where the nearby iron resource was pillaged. These Legions then followed the hills in an advance towards Tzintzuntzen. Meanwhile our :egypt: *allies* made peace with Montezuma! Our legions forged ahead and on the plains before Tzintzuntzen a fierce battle was fought and won by Trajan. This victory brought Montezuma to the peace table and King donsig :king: made peace with the Aztecs in return for the cities of Tula and Teayo. Trajan was sent on a triumphant journey back to Fanatica and has reached the outskirts of the Egyptian town of Byblos, only a short distance from Fanatica's borders.

There has been no recent activity in our other war against America. American emissaries have contacted the King offering peace (and the city of Buffalo) but the King refused peace so as not to break the alliances we have with Egypt and Greece. there are still 8 turns remaining in our alliances against America. Abe is still willing to give us peace and will offer our choice of Buffalo, San Francisco or Houston. Houston is on the mountainous Russian continent.

Greek and Egyptian settlers tried penetrating our lands to settle but our forces were able to block them. Our lands are still vulnerable to sea bourne squatters though. An escorted band of Persian settlers recently landed in Esquiline province. We have placed a city in the area which has encouraged the Persians to move on. They seems to be heading for the far west of Esquiline province. This may also be the destination of a Babylonian galley seen recently near the spot where the Persians landed.

In all four cities were founded: Iron Hills west of Lake Asphinxia; Gingerbread City southwest of Bootia on the peninsula; Go home Xerxes and Nodoldan's City in Esquiline province. With our two new Aztec cites we now have a total of 27 cities! We also have two settlers, one in Esquiline and one in Capitoline province. There is still work to be done since the Peninsula has alot of room left for cities and neither Esquiline nor Aventine Province is completely settled yet

We have lost our scientific edge. We were the first to enter the middle ages and we with held currency from all of our rivals. Unfortunately, some countries are more adept at research than we are and have an advantage. The Persians and Greeks both entered the middle ages and each gained a free tech. They gained differenttechs and swapped and now they both have monotheism and engineering. More trading has taken place among our rivals and now Egypt and the Aztecs also have monotheism. We have been researching that tech at a minimal rate and are still 31 turns away from learning it. It is available for purchase. :)

We have completed our first harbor but we can only trade with our Egyptian and Greek allies who are on our continent. :(

We are currently in fourth place on the histograph being exactly 100 points behind the front running Babylonians. Though there are other civs we still have not yet met. There is an orange border visible on our maps north of Persia...

President donsig,

You will be pleased to know that as Judge Advocate, I have found that the current case against you has no merit. What you may not like is that I then resigned my position and opened a new PI citing our very own preamble to the Constitution.

You see, many citizens agreed to this lenient ruleset in the hopes that citizens would not abuse the priviledge and would instead defer to the accepted standards of previous DemoGames to iron out what our Constitution may lack. But you have decided to go against those wishes by exposing each tear in our Constitution and using that advantage to isolate yourself from the populace.

Also, your insistence on playing ten turns per chat, no matter what comes our way, is not in the best interests of our nation. Sometimes situations arise that could have never been predicted by even the most savvy leader. In those instances, the chat must stop. However, your need to play 10 turns no matter what led to your unilateral decision to involve the entire continent in a free-for-all instead of getting the citizens' approval. Were you afraid they would not agree with you?

Finally, being a leader of the nation means leading some of the discussions yourself should they not be posted in a timely manner by others. Once again, while I am sure our Constitution glosses over this, it has been accepted practice for as long as I have been here and should be accepted practice for someone who claims that "the buck stops here." While you have shown excellence in bringing needed information to this thread and the Instruction threads in regards to what happened, I have only seen you lead one discussion(regarding city placement) on what comes next in the Citizen's Forum. One would think that someone concerned with adequate discussion in the Forums would lead by example and begin some of those discussions himself if need be. You know, perhaps the good people of Fanatica would like to know your intentions before they happen. I am sure in many cases, you have a good idea what you want to do before you do it. Why aren't the people informed?

That's all I have. If you decide to continue the practice of unhindered 10-turn (and now private) chats, as well as not making your intentions and desires clear beforehand, my PI will stay active. I hate to do this, but your distancing of the people, even the shameless extortionists you mentioned above, has got to stop. This "tough love" will not have the effect on the Forums you are hoping for.


Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi

Thank you for expressing your concerns here DZ. First of all, I would like to say that the reason I have not been able to lead many discussions myself is that ever since the first turn chat of term three I have spent most of my forum time trying to defend myself against a PI that you yourself decided had no merit. That's three hours that could have went into starting discussions.

As for starting discussions before the first turn chat, I had hoped that our leaders would do so. I sent out private messages to our leaders suggesting they include pertient information in their department and province threads. I specifically asked Zarn about the RoP with Greece, the embassy with Egypt and what should be done should the Aztecs settle in our lands. He opened the appropriate polls and discussion thread. He did his job! He even made it clear in the Aztec settlement thread that I favored war if the Aztecs settled. There was no great outcry agianst that war. I asked General Falcon to draw up contingent war plans against the Aztecs. He opened no thread. Is there even a term three military thread? Is it up th ethe President to lead every discussion and open every poll? Must the DP get permission from the citizens for every move he or she makes? Or is permission needed only from those who attend the chat on a regular basis?

We passed a lenient ruleset for this demogame so we would not be burdened with long legal procedures everytime the DP makes a decision someone doesn't like. As I've said elsewhaere, I will gladly accept demogame traditions that are beneficial to our enjoyment of the game. I will not hesitate to break those traditions that hurt the demogame. I am not afraid to try new things, to set new traditions for the good of this game.

I do not have a need to play ten turns per chat. I am quite willing to stop a chat or an off-line game play session if something truly unexpected and serious happens. If you do not believe me I suggest you go to the DG1 archives and read about PI#6. In twenty turns there has been little that was unexpected and serious. The American war cannot be classified as a serious thing. They are far away and no threat to us. The Greeks alliance neutralized them without letting Greece grow at America's expense. Even getting a leader was no reason to stop since he was so far from any of our cities anyway. As for the Aztecs, I could see them settling on our side of the bay. It took one look at the 170 AD save. Why do you think I wanted an embassy with Egypt? So we could get an RoP to facilitate troop movements towards the Aztecs. Did I spell all this out? No. The 170 AD save has been sitting out there since June 19. Two weeks is plenty of time for our leaders and citizens to discuss things and make plans. No one did. You yourself even cancelled the last chat of your term due to lack of interest on the part of the citizenry. While I understand your reasons for doing so I have found through three demogames that stopping game play does not stimulate discussion and polling. The only way to get discussion going is to give the citizens new situations to talk about and that can only be done through playing the game.

As for distancing the people I do not agree that that is what I am doing. I am distancing a certain group of people, i.e., those who are used to attending the chats regularly and exerting more than their share of power through the chats. What I am trying to do is reach out to our citizens who cannot attend the chats and encourage them to rejoin us. Many have come and registered as citizens only to find that you must load the save to see what is going on and then attend the chats to be heard. Most leave the game. This is a forum based game not a chat based game. There is no reason a citizen shouldn't be able to come to these forums, get an idea of what is going on in our country, voice his or her position on our issues and feel as though they are participating in the game! That was the original idea behind the demogame but it has evolved from that into a game where the forums are basically ignored in favor of a system where every move by the DP must be rubber stamped by those at the chat. The demogame is on the verge of collapse not because I decided it was best to go to war with the Aztecs, but because our reliance on the chat has driven away those citizens who cannot or do not want to attend the chats.

I have shaken the tree and perhaps some rotten apples have fallen. Is that a bad thing in the long run? I do hope you will reconsider your decision to resign DZ. Drop the PI and let's move on. I will happily return to the practice of holding turn chats once I see our game play intruction thread used as it should be used. However turn chats will not be used to hold spot votes for decision making purposes. Since those at the chat represent only a fraction of our registered and active citizenry they cannot be deemed to represent the will of the people. I also will not recognize instructions from leaders at the chat as legal instructions. I will happily ask leaders present for advice. I will even wait while said leaders poll the present citizens before giving their advice. But I will reserve the right to make all game play decisions myself, subject of course to those legal instructions in the game play instruction thread. I have no agenda to play ten turns every chat and if something truly unexpected and serious arises I will end the chat.

The focus of this game must return to the forums. By not holding spot votes in the turn chats those at the turn chat would not be ignored any more than those not at the chat would be. As always those who regularly attend the chat still have the opportunity to make themselves heard via the forums.

Thank you,
donsig

Very well, Mr. President.

It is hard to argue with your explanation, as the Democracy Game is truly broken. I will allow this for now, and drop the current charges against you. My new PI would probably prove to have no merit anyway.

I would write more, but I am under current time constraints. Please know that I now support your decision and will help in any way I can if need be. Thank you for taking the time to fully explain your motives to me. I hope they work.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi

I too stand behind the President and support his ideals. Although his actions may have been a little crisp for some to swallow, I believe these actions have been very effective. Because of the picture that our previous President, Donovan Zoi, has left us in of an increasingly powerful and wise Nation, President donsig's approach has expanded our fortune. With continued success on building what DZ's legacy has given us, we shall soon be rising in the list of Nations.

Crisp, Cyc? crisp? devoicing and eliminating turn chats can hardly be called crisp.

Originally posted by donsig
Donovan Zoi's naming list seems fine. Rik Meleet has already posted his desire to rename South Canal Town. Zarn has naming rights to the other city on the Bay. I think it is currently named Bay Town. We will have three more cities (at least) next turn chat so Gingerbread Man, Noldodan and Vander should post the names they want to use. If they don't I will make up a name to be used until they decide on the name they want at which time I will rename the city for them.

I put New Jedina in a post, when I registered as a citizen. Mr. President, if you would be so kind...

Originally posted by Zarn

I put New Jedina in a post, when I registered as a citizen. Mr. President, if you would be so kind...

That has already been taken care of during the last game play session. :)

Well I guess, that puts you a step ahead of me, Mr. President. :lol:

I didn't even notice the change, yet.

From the Jade House

Dear President Donsig,

I am shocked to hear that there is going to be a closed turn Game. I am urging to reconsider the actions and bring back the Turn Chats. The Demogame Turn Chats has always been a tradition, Like fireworks for the US forth of July. If you take away the fireworks, there would be no 4th of July. Same goes for the Demogame TC. With out the DG TC, there would be no DG. So I am asking you, as a concerned citizen and as Vice President, to Reconsider your actions on making this a closed turn, and bring back the TC.

Thanks,
Vice President CivGeneral

There was a time long ago when the demogame was played without a turn chat. The demogame went along just fine in the forums. The same can happen now.

Wednesday's game play will be off-line, that will not change. The following game play session may be on-line or off-line depending on what happens between now and Wednesday. If discussions, polls, decision making and, above all, leader instructions are posted in the game play instruction thread for Wednesday's session then I will happily conduct an on-line game play session next Saturday.

However, as I posted earlier in this thread, there will be no spot votes called during on-line game play sessions. Leaders will not be asked for instructions during on-line game play sessions and I will not consider any instructions given by leaders during on-line game play sessions to be legal instructions. I may well ask both leaders and citizens at the chat for advice but all game play decisions not addressed in our leaders' posted instructions in the game play instruction thread will be made by me in my capacity as president. I will not play more than the traditional ten turns and if a situation arises that I deem requires citizen input I will stop the game play session in order that forum discussion can take place. I hope this will be satisfactory to our citizens.

Thank you,
donsig

It is this citizens opinion that it will be satisfactory to run the on-line game session as you outlined next Saturday. Your concessions about the on-line sitting show you are indeed willing to be cool headed. I hope our cabinet ministers will post thoughtful instructions and make an honest attempt to keep the game running. I also hope you will hld an on-line session on Saturday so those who attend the chat for fun will still find enjoyment.

From the Jade House

Dear Donsig,

Are there going to be any Turn Chats that the Vice President will get to play the save. If so, please tell me when.

Thanks,
Vice President CivGeneral

Gawd, this sounds like my parents handing out treats for good behavior when I was seven years old.

Dear Donsig,

I would like to complement on the turns you have played. THough I am curious on what happened during your turns. I hope that the Turn Chats would return soon :). In other Demogame News I have made some attemps to fix our laws in the discussion threads that are present so that we can get the game going :).

Thanks,
CivGeneral

Trajan completed the building of our Forbidden Palace circa 430 AD. Our glorious Legions returned from the Aztec war and took up positions in the northern mountains just in case any American forces dared showed their ugly faces.

We founded a new city in the new province south of Aventine. The Persians continued wandering around Esquiline province and we blocked them here and there. An escorted Babylonian settler landed in western Esquiline province on the infamous Site C. They entered the coastal mountains and we were fortunate to be able to trap them their. We now have a chance to completely settle Esquiline province! One settler is on is way to the river north and west of Memphis and there is still plenty of land to settle on the southern peninsula. We need more settlers!

Our cities continued their building projects as temples, settlers, workers and spearmen were produced. Our workers continued to improve the land and build roads westward. We kept the science rate as high as we could while still maintaining the 4gpt surplus desired by the domestic department. We will learn monotheism in two turns.

Gingerbread Man - Governor of Capitoline(T3 new)
Noldodan - Governor of Aventine(T3 new)
Vander - Public Defender(T3)
Civanator - Judge Advocate (T3)
Fionn McCumhall - Judge Advocate(T1)
All Term 3 deputies
All Term 1 deputies who have yet to name a city
All Term 2 deputies who have yet to name a city
The citizenry

So is this the list for naming now?
Also- Would I be considered a Term 3 deputy, or be put in for JA Term 3?

Good point, Civanator. I would think you would go in right behind Vander. This means one of the new 5 Fanatican cities is yours to name (7 actually if you count the two we got from Monty with the peace treaty).

So now does that look good?

No, it doesn't look good to me. I already named my city.

Prsident Donsig, seeing as we are without a JA i would be happy to serve as interim JA until a special election is made or until the elections whichever is decided

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
Prsident Donsig, seeing as we are without a JA i would be happy to serve as interim JA until a special election is made or until the elections whichever is decided

I thought Civanator was our JA...

Originally posted by donsig


I thought Civanator was our JA...

Exactly, but I will be gone the 12th to 19th with no computer access, so we will be needing an interim JA.

Gingerbread Man - Governor of Capitoline(T3 new)
Vander - Public Defender(T3)
Civanator - Judge Advocate (T3)
Fionn McCumhall - Judge Advocate(T1)
All Term 3 deputies
All Term 1 deputies who have yet to name a city
All Term 2 deputies who have yet to name a city
The citizenry

Is this good now?

Mr. President;

When are the next turns going to be played ?
I need a time-indication to update my province-thread and discuss with my Mayors and Domestic for the path to follow and the buildqueues. I therefore request a notification of the date early, as my time is limited.

Will the next turns be played during a turnchat, please ?
We all know now how exiting (sarcastic) it is when the DP plays the turns behind closed doors. I knew it would reduce my fun, but I didn't expect it to be reduced near to the zero-level. If I would want to wait for a saved-game and a turn-by-turn update afterwards I'd be playing a succession-game. (O.K. I am, but that's not the point). I'm unable to play in about a week since I'm going on holiday (not sent by Cyc this time). If the T/C will not take place I think I'm going to spend my time instead on holiday preparations and will not be able to post much. OTOH I will have sufficient time to post instructions and update Esquiline province if there are T/C 's.

Rik Meleet
Governor of Esquiline Povince

OT: Rik, the golden rule: Your life first. Get your holiday preparations set, then take care of everything ;)

On Topic:
Yes Mr. President, when is the next play session/Turn Chat? Is it Wednesday?

I do not know when the next game play session will be. Eyrei put a one week hold on the game for us to pass a Code of Laws. I'm not sure if we can play again after the week is up or after we pass a Code of Laws. We need to hear from eyrei on this. I thought I pmmed him asking about it but maybe I didn't.

I'd like to play next Wednesday, early afternoon EDT. I figure that time would be good for our European citizens as it would be evening their time.

Once eyrei gives the word I'll be glad to schedule the next game play session. I'd also be glad to conduct the game play session on-line as long as I can conduct the session as I outlined earlier in this very thread.

Eyrei said here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1099512#post1099512) to expect play next Wednesday, or sooner if a suitable CoL is passed before then. Note: "suitable" is an interpretation by me, that I don't think just any CoL will do -- not that we're likely to finish before then anyway ;), You can read what Eyrei actually wrote at the link.

We now have 35 cities despite the fact that the treacherous citizens of Teayo and Tula revolted and rejoined the empire of the Aztecs. Esquiline province is almost filled withour cities and we are busy founding cities in the southern peninsula. The Persians have built the city of Istakhr north of Xak Tsaroth in Capitoline province. :( We can still build about half a dozen cities on the Peninsula and we should build a canal there as we did in Esquiline province.

We have lost our technology edge. We are seven turns from learning theology but the Babylonians already have that. Many others civs also have the republic, engineering and feudalism. The Greeks and Persians are building Sun Tzu's Art of War; the Persians are building Leonardo's Workshop and the Babylonians are working on the Sistine CHapel. We have been pre-building the Sistine Chapel in Gorina and estimate it will be completed in 28 turns. By establishing an embassy in Babylon we can determine if we will beat the Babylonians in the race to finish the chapel. Since Astronomy is our mid-range research goal we should consider pre-building Copernicus's Observatory in Memphis.

We can buy gems from Russia for horses, WM and 146g. There isn't much else we can do in the way of trades. We can renegotiate several peace treaties for gold and contact with three new civs (Japan, Germany and England). Egypt needs horses and iron while Greece needs horses.

We still have 14 cities that are ungarrisoned, We do have 31 spearmen, 2 warriors and 24 legions so we seem to have adequate forces for defense. Most are currently on the Line. Perhaps it is time to disband the Line? We also have 27 domestic workers (as well as 5 foreign workers). We are currently allowed 74 units but have 84 so our unit cost is 10gpt. Perhaps it is time to stop making spearmen and workers?

The other civs are either annoyed or furious with us, and will remain so should we renegotiate the peace treaties. The gradual establishment of embassies should help our relations as will our ability to export grapes and dyes once we know astronomy. We also have excess horses and iron to sell as noted above.

We have 1292 culture points. 23 of our cities have no culture. We have 12 temples, 5 libraries, 1 colosseum, as well as our palace and forbidden palace. We currently have six temples and six libraries under construction. We also have eight spearmen being recruited and these should be switched over to libraries or temples. We need to concentrate on culture improvements in nortern Capitoline in order to try to convince the citizens of Istakhr to join our kingdom.

Our histograph score is 680 points. We are 43 points behind the front running Babylonians. Our power graph is large but our culture graph is small. We lead the worls in manufactured goods. We are second in both land area and population. We are third in GNP. We are ninth in literacy.

We have established an embassy in Babylon per this poll. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58849)

Here is a picture! (DG3_babylon.JPG -uploaded to server): (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_babylon.JPG)

Here's a smaller one of their work on the Sistine Chapel (DG3_sistine.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_sistine.JPG)

We have also renegotiated peace treaties per the same poll. We now have 312g, +17gpt and contact with England, Germany and Japan.

Here is the new save! (DG3_610_AD_peace.zip -uploaded to server): (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/DG3_610_AD_peace.zip)

60 turns till completion. But also note they will grow in 2 turns, and if they work the mined incense on the hill after growth, that will give them 2 shields more per turn, so they will actually complete it in 49 turns (probably quicker, not counting further growth after 2 turns.

But Gorina will be done with Sistine in 28 turns (not countig growth of the city). :)

Good, I wasn't aware how long until we complete it.

How does this affect our plans to pre-build Copernicus's Observatory if we build the Sistine Chapel and the other civs cascade?

Since other civs might cascade from Sistine to Copernicus we should try picking up music theory or free artistry via trading. This would allow us to swtich Memphis to Bach's or Shakespeare if someone else builds Copernicus.

We have learned theology and are working on education now. The Greeks asked us to ally against America. They were willing to give us engineering and gold. The deal was accepted. The Americans promptly took Buffalo and burned it to the ground. Just before that we bought gems from the Russians for our WM and, horses and 148g. We also made a deal with Egypt to get feudalilsm. In return we paid a little gold and are exporting iron, horses and dyes to them. While we have gained three techs this last round we are still behind the Persians who have both chivalry and invention.

We settled another city or two and have more settlers on the way to other city sites. The peninsula is the area needed the most new cities but we are close to having all our lands settled. Once we do we can consider abandoning the Line and using our Glorious Legions to help garrison our cities.

We continued to build temples, libraries and harbors. We have switched Gorina to the Sisitine Chapel which will be complete in less than 20 turns.

We built a few more cities on the Peninsula, but the Persians also built the city of Jinjan there. It would be wise if we built a canal in the Peninsula.

Greece made peace with America before our alliance ended. We made peace the next turn and now we own Houston which is near the Greek capital.

We have learned education and can now build universities. We immediately sold education to the Greeks in an effort to neutralize the Great Library. We got invention and republic in the deal. We then sold education to Persia for 89g and 42gpt. This allowed us to increase our research rate to the 80 - 100% range while maintaining a surplus. We are still behind the Persians in tech as they now have gunpowder. We will have astronomy in 4 turns and this should open us trading possibilites for the export and import of luxuries. We have 2 extra wines and 3 extra dyes to sell. Germany has ivory and silk, England has silk, Babylon has incense, China has furs and Japan has spices for sale.

Gaining astronomy will also allow us to build Copernicus's Observatory. We currently have 158 shields stored up in Memphis. It takes 400 shileds to build Copernicus. We also have the ability to build Sun Tsu and Leonardo. We are 6 turns away from completing the Sistine Chapel. That will cause cascades to other wonders.

We also have a much fuller world map now.

We have 2493 culture points but over half our cities still lack culture!

We are now 66 points ahead of Babylon - but we are 148 points behind the Germans!

This is a repost from the Citizen's subforum, dealing with the Great Wonder Copernicus' Observatory in Memphis as opposed to a Cathedral. Also the LuxRate:

So what is your plan of action, donsig? Are you going to raise the LuxRate up to 10% so Memphis will stop rioting and Gorina will remain content? Will you be switching to a Palace until you can confirm how many Lux's you can Trade for? Or will you just suprise me again? :D

BTW, when's the next t/c, Kimosabi?

Tonto

Well, Cyc, it is not all up to me. Domestic sets the sliders and the Governor of Aventine sets the Memphis build queues. domestic also has a say in how much gold can be spent on luxuries and trade may also have something to say about the prospective deals.

I can tell you what I'd like to see done:

1) Memphis switched to palace during the pre-turn
2) I'd like to know how much gold I can spend on luxuries when we get astronomy
3) I'd like permission to buy as many luxuries as domestic thinks we can afford (including renewing the gems deal with Russia)
4) I'd like permission to set the lux rate and optimize both Memphis and Gorina after the lux deals are made (and after we lose the Russian gems if that happens).

In others, I hope to surprise you. ;)

We built a few more cities, two of them forming the Grand Southern Canal on the Peninsula. We have made great strides this term is filling our land with cities but there are still a few more good city sites left.

We have learned the advances of astronomy and banking. We are currently working on a printing press as we drive towards democracy.

The advent of astronomy opened up several trading possibilities for us. We are now importing English silks, Japanese spices and German ivory. The importation of Russian gems also continues.

We have completed our first wonder, the Sisitine Chapel, in the great city of Gorina. We are currently working on Copernicus's Observatory in Memphis. It is currently 20 turns from completion.

We have shortened The Line in an effort to get all of our cities garrisoned.

Our demographics from the start and end of term 3:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/DG3_170_ADdemographics.jpg http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/DG3_1020_AD_demographics.jpg

The Jade House is now the President's office :D

Term - 4 Presidential Thread: The Jade House (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1144464#post1144464)