In a chat today in #debates, donsig has announced that he will be discontinuing the tradition of using turnchats to advance the Demogame, instead optioning to use closed-door single-person chat. The issue at hand is, do we support, as a democracy, this action? This poll will be open for 5 days.

[17:32] <donsig> until this PI is resolved there will be no more turn chats
[17:32] <donsig> I will play the game without them using only the posted turn chat instructins
[17:32] <donsig> I will post game notes as requied by the constitution
[17:32] <donsig> my reply is done and I see no reason for me to continue in this debate

This poll holds no legal weight for several reasons. First, there was absolutely no discussion. Second, and more importantly, the constitution puts the power to hold chats or not in the hands of the president. If you wish to try to add an amendment to the constitution, feel free to do so.

On your first point, discussion is recommended but not required to poll something. On your second, the only thing that the constitution says about turnchats and playing the game without them is that notes or a chat log must be presented. Therefore, though the president can at the moment play without a turnchat, if we can determine that it is in the will of the people to hold a turnchat it must be done under Article G of our constitution.

I think eyrei has a point. Because this poll fails to meet certain conditions, it is only informational.

Where does the law restrict this poll? What does it fail to meet? Nothing under our current law. andas this is the bset way to gather a large number of people to join in a common cause Donsig shall in time have to obey the leading group.

i voted that the turnchat do not need to resume. If donsig thinks that it is easier and less distracting for him to play that way its he perogitive(sp?).

I joined to have fun and enjoy myself. If the TC's are cancelled I don't think I will be having fun any more.

Can the President explain why he is denying me enjoying this game-pleasure ?

Rik Meleet

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
i voted that the turnchat do not need to resume. If donsig thinks that it is easier and less distracting for him to play that way its he perogitive(sp?).
First Fionn agrees with Donsig and Cyc and now I agree with him. The day of reckoning must surely be upon us :D

ive been anti-turn chat since the start of the second demogame when all those damn rules were made up to protect those in the chat without any thought for those who didnt attend.

stop the turn chats, and leave them in the past.

So Immortal, you're saying Non-TC'ers are more important than TC'ers?
People who *like* TC's will lose a privilege, while people who don't attend TC's will gain... Nothing?

Thats a very glib interpretation of what I said.
In my opinion turn chats give undue influence to those whom attend (which I was, formerly) while those who do not attend have NO influence on decisions made in the turn chat.
I could just as easily interpret you saying turn chats need to stay means you believe those who attend the chats are more important then those who dont. I could, but I wont. Someone else is welcome to though.

Who gains and who loses? it doesnt matter, as there is a discrepency in power with the use of turn chats. The removal of them doesnt make the attendees lose anything they shoulnt have had in the first place. This game should function within the forums, not an mIRC channel with limited acessability for those who work or are raising a family.
But since it is ever so important that we know who loses and who gains: The attendees of turn chats lose undue influnce, non attendees gain rightful influence.

Forgive my horrible typing, as my left hand is in a cast.

So what happens when Donsig comes up with something unexpected. Instead of 10 people helping him decide, he'll have to do it himself. I'm sorry if you think 1 is a larger number than 10. That is a far larger discrepancy of power than TCers versus those who're unable to attend. You own arguments are turned against yourself, as Donsig effectively does the work of 10 people now, as Leaders can not be prepared for everything.

If you expect that to be a problem it would be perfectly possible to either legislate on what events should prompt a return to the fora or for the leaders to include catch all return to fora instructions for possible events within their jurisdiction.

A wonderful idea Eklektikos. I think we really should have that in our Constitution.

outline events which will cause the game to be forced to return to the forum/.

beat me to it eh elk.

But that still won't be effective. As it will be impossible to outline al of the events that will need discussion on the forum.

Originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
i voted that the turnchat do not need to resume. If donsig thinks that it is easier and less distracting for him to play that way its he perogitive(sp?).

Yes, poor soul the president be that he has to contend with being distracted by the citizens that put him into office. Not so long ago I remember the same people gathered here fight to ensure that turn chats remain and be kept to ensure that the DP doesn't "stray" and now it seems turn chats are no longer needed, how the tides have shifted. Aparently it seems it all depends on who's in power and not about maintaining our institutions. If the valid voice of the people interrupts the game then so be it; I would rather have the game stoped so a discussion can go forth, than close the doors on the game and let only a few, or one, decide on the things that partain to us all.

There is much talk of turn chat vs forum people...how you make that diference is beyond me..maybe we should have another denomination for those that attend the two.
Since when has there been special privileges given to parts of our citizens? Real decisions that affect the nation should be taken in the forums by the entire population, there is no need to cancel the turn chats since these decisions are allready taken and any decisions like these that ocur duting game play should be taken back to said forums, even if it means playing a 3 turn game, it's been done before and I see no reason why it should be done diferently just because we have a diferent president with a diferent "interpretation" of how the game should be played. If the people that attend the turn chat obtain "special priviledges" for the only reason of attending, then it is the leaders fault by not posting instructions and comencing discussions, not the citizens that attend the chat.
You do not stop the sickness by killing the patient.

Ehecatl Atzin

I recall the first demogame, which was also, in my opinion the most fun. We didn't even use turn chats for awhile, and even when we started, attendence was often very low. There were numerous threads started in the forum after every chat, and people really discussed the pros and cons of every decision. The president had such a great deal of input from the forums, that he/she had to make very few decisions alone, and even then, had a good idea of at least the direction we should be moving.

Many times, the turn chat consisted of myself and Grey Fox making all the decisions, because we were the only ones there. We followed the will of the citizenry almost in every way, because decisions were usually made unanimously because the reasons behind the plans were so well laid out. The difference now is that leaders have their plans approved mostly based on their personal popularity, and often do not have to field any questions at all. Many times, no discussion is posted, and I cannot help but believe that the reason for this is that the leaders who plan on attending the chat figure they will hold the discussion there. This is what a certain group of us object to. This is a forum game.

Also, and though this had been said before, I will say it again. Giving 'power' to turn chats gives an undeserved amount of power to those who can attend. Again, this game is to be played primarily on the forums. I realize the turn chats are a fun social gathering, but that does not mean they should take precedence over everything else.

Finally, and I do not mean offense to anyone with this, I believe the primary reason our President did what he did last turn chat was that he did not believe that the rest of the leadership had done sufficient planning. The reason skill level shouldn't necessarily impact elections is because it is expected that input from the citizenry help the leader to make his/her decision. Some of us are quite good at this game, and some aren't. There, I said it. I do not want those who are not as skilled making unilateral decisions without a significant amount of input, and the easiest way to do this is to require that all leaders ask for this input. This in turn would increase forum participation, and make things easier on our DPs, as they would actually have some faith that what they have been told to do is the best idea.

Well, all I can say is that the Demogame is going down the tubes because we want all of these changes......

I agree with eyrei. If there is no meaningful discussion for the motives or reasoning of any course of action we take as a nation, then it all boils down to each of us taking an educated guess at the time of the t/c spot poll. I don't believe that was the true nature of the game when it was created.

I'd also like to comment on EA's post. In regards to a shift of opinion (if you were kinda sideways talking to me...:) ), I made my initial declarations about keeping turnchats many moons ago. This was during a time when the Demogames were populated by citizens that truly cared about the nation, not themselves. This was a time when the Leaders used to take pride in posting their t/c instructions in the Instruction thread. This was during a time when a Department had 100 posts in it, commonly. And this was during a time when we had rules and laws. We don't see that now. I guess my opinion has evolved with the Demogame. What a shame.

im going back to demogame 1 in the archived forum and im going to research everything from instructions to chat logs. im going to see just what is different and what is the same.

Id also like to note that a lot of demogame 1s interest came from the fact that some of us volunteered for stuff. Such as keeping a chat log (which I did for the first half).

I originally voted that turnchats should resume, however after reading some old-timer DGers, I am not so sure. I am willing to give limited access turn chats. I mean, I am in the wrong timezone to attend any of them.

Sure, they are fun, but I will give this new (or rehashed) idea a go. I trust the people who are supporting no T/Cs, and you dont know anything until you try it.

This poll has received a review (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1091586#post1091586) by the PSC board. Please take note of the comments made.

Originally posted by Cyc
I'd also like to comment on EA's post. In regards to a shift of opinion (if you were kinda sideways talking to me...:) ), I made my initial declarations about keeping turnchats many moons ago. This was during a time when the Demogames were populated by citizens that truly cared about the nation, not themselves. This was a time when the Leaders used to take pride in posting their t/c instructions in the Instruction thread. This was during a time when a Department had 100 posts in it, commonly. And this was during a time when we had rules and laws. We don't see that now. I guess my opinion has evolved with the Demogame. What a shame.

Well, it wasn't directed to anyone personaly, but since you felt the suit fit :D ...I don't see abolishing something intrinsec to the very nature of this game as evolution; at best I see it as a beaurocratic victory. All the reasons you post as valid for removing the t/c are exactly the reasons I see to keep them: you say that now the game is populated by people that only care for themselves, let's asume that's correct, what makes donsig so worthy of my trust then? so as to leave him to play the game by himself? as if donsig was the only one here without personal interests in his mind...If turn chats were needed when we had rules and laws I think they are even more necesary than ever now that we don't have them and everything is up for "interpretation" by the DP. And about the 100 posts per department, I'd prefer 10 post with a little substance, than 1000 filled with spam.
Personally, I like to know how we got somewhere, not just be handed a written letter about it; and yes, the people that attend the turn chats are there for a reason, (not just to have fun) they are there to help the DP thru the game, so she/he doesn't have to go at it alone, unless of course, we're talking about an all knowing player...and I doubt anyone here has attained such a level.
Since when is loosing part of the game that helped defined it and separated it from the rest an evolution is beyond me. Pitty.

Ehecatl Atzin

Sorry, EA. You've misinterpreted what I've said and put the entire weight of the "evolution" comment on the t/c's. That's totally wrong. But other than that, I don't think we're allowed to talk about it anymore.

well, i think nobody can prevent us from talking about things we like if we dont break forum rules. if someone tries to prevent me from it by banning, then fine, do so!