According to ravensfire's PI proposals, if the CJ or JA fail to post an extension of the 36-hour time limit to continue a PI to the trial thread, the charges are dismissed. This is an informational poll designed to see if the citizens feel if changes need to be made in this procedure. The poll will be open for 24 hours and will have no Abstain option. I may post a followup poll if the poll results here are ambiguous.

I voted for the middle option. I feel that the JA or CJ should be required to file a delay notice, but I feel that the charge should not be dropped simply because they fail to do so. They may accidentially let the time limit run out, or refuse to post it, and no action could be done against them.

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1113534#post1113534) is a link to the discussion.

Friends, citizens, led me your ear!

I would ask of you to read through the discussion linked above prior to voting.

Consider yourself as a person under accusation. How long are you willing for that to hang over your head? For you to be unsure of the future?

I'm quite obviously in support of the first option. Shoot - I wrote the thing. I'd better support it, right?

Here is my reasoning.

First and foremost, I have faith in people. To me, all citizens are trustworthy until proven otherwise. I strongly feel that those we elect to a Judicial position will do the right thing, even if they find it personally distasteful. I point out DZ's actions in the most recent events. From what he said, he truly loathed what he had to do, but he did it.

For those concerned about someone trying to "hide" a PI, and use a "pocket veto" to make it not happen, I ask you why would that person not immediately get a PI filed against them? Here is a person who subverted their office, and willfully used it to an unlawful purpose.

In addition, the PI process allows for the Accuser of a charge deemed nont valid to appeal to the entire judiciary.

Citizens, I appeal to you. Keep the time limit, have faith in those you have elected to the judiciary and allow those under investigation to have a speedy decision about their future.

I thank you!
-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
Friends, citizens, led me your ear!

I would ask of you to read through the discussion linked above prior to voting.

Consider yourself as a person under accusation. How long are you willing for that to hang over your head? For you to be unsure of the future?

I'm quite obviously in support of the first option. Shoot - I wrote the thing. I'd better support it, right?

Here is my reasoning.

[quote]For those concerned about someone trying to "hide" a PI, and use a "pocket veto" to make it not happen, I ask you why would that person not immediately get a PI filed against them? Here is a person who subverted their office, and willfully used it to an unlawful purpose.
They would not get a PI filed against them because they did not violate any part of the law. The reason that DZ dismissed charges against donsig was that he found loopholes in the constitution and used them to his advantage. It is apparently legal to declare yourself dictator in a turnchat provided that you pay attention to the turnchat instructions. A JA would not have PI charges succeed because of similar reasons.
First and foremost, I have faith in people. To me, all citizens are trustworthy until proven otherwise. I strongly feel that those we elect to a Judicial position will do the right thing, even if they find it personally distasteful.
The "pocket veto" is something that could happen, but I doubt it will. I am much more concerned that the CJ and JA would be likely to be swept up into the PI and may simply forget to post an extension. By the time they realized their mistake, the charges would already be dismissed. I think we need to make it a law to have a restriction whereby they are required to post an extension to a deadline but make so that if they accidentially missed the deadline nothing major (especially the complete dismissal of charges) could happen.

They would not get a PI filed against them because they did not violate any part of the law. The reason that DZ dismissed charges against donsig was that he found loopholes in the constitution and used them to his advantage. It is apparently legal to declare yourself dictator in a turnchat provided that you pay attention to the turnchat instructions. A JA would not have PI charges succeed because of similar reasons.

Interesting, but not the same situation. I'm going to focus on the JA situation.

The JA is required to investigate all accusations in a timely manner. Period. If they need more time, they make a post stating that they are extending the time.

Those are the duties of tha JA during the investigation phase. I challenge you to find a loophole around that.

You mentioned two specific possibilities - hiding and a pocket veto.

Hiding. I'm assuming that you mean the JA takes the accusation and simply does nothing about it. C'mon, do you really have that little respect for you fellow citizens? If I make an accusation, and you as the JA never follow up with me, you'd better believe you're the next PI I file. And since you are the target, you can't think about hiding that one. Result - you are probably impeached.

Pocket veto. The JA deliberatly allows the time frame to expire. My response to that is that during an investigation, the CJ should be keeping an eye on things. If they aren't getting any information from the JA, or think there is something going on, the CJ is permitted to post an extension.

In addition, if the JA does pull a "pocket veto", the accuser appeals to the entire Judiciary.

Let me give you an alternate scenario, under the rules you are proposing.

I'm the JA, and get a case that I just don't like. I do nothing with it. I'm "investigating it thoroughly." Even better, i get an automatic extension! Cool - the PI never gets out of the investigation phase. To top it all over, perfectly by the rules.

To summarize, there is no perfect system. I'm proposing a system with a series of checks and balances that exposes the results of each step to public scrutiny. I think that a process that uses time limits to keep everything going will force the attention on needed areas, and keep the game going. And that's the most important thing.

-- Ravensfire

I'm the JA, and get a case that I just don't like. I do nothing with it. I'm "investigating it thoroughly." Even better, i get an automatic extension! Cool - the PI never gets out of the investigation phase. To top it all over, perfectly by the rules.
You could certainly write a law stating that the JA must perform this in the most timely manner. Keep in mind my second paragraph, which states that while I certainly don't think that a JA would hide or pocket veto any case, a mistake can certainly be made, and perhaps the CJ or JA may simply forget to post an extension until too late.
In addition, if the JA does pull a "pocket veto", the accuser appeals to the entire Judiciary.
You'd better write into your law proposal that if the charges are deemed invalid because the extension was not posted, the accuser can appeal to the whole Judiciary, and not just because the JA deems it to have no merit.