To participate in this discussion you must have already played and submitted the Gotm21-Mediterranean Melee.

While most of this discussion will focus on early game issues, If you haven't already finished your game we do not want you to be screwing around here and miss the deadline because you are having too much fun here. Go kill sombody of launch somethin' and then come back.

-----------------------------------------------------

The purpose of this discussion is to focus specifically on early wonders in the game and to try and determine where they were located and why??

As an example, in every one of the test games that were played before the game was released to you to play, the Pyramids where built by either Germany or the Ottomans and they always ended up being built in the same cities.

For the purpose of this discussion you need to know that it was impossible for Atlantis to build early wonders and the Atlantans began the game 5 or 6 settlers but could build no additional settlers until about turn 120 of the game. Carthage and Persia began the game with one extra settler compared to the otehr civs in the game.

Look closely at your game and try to determine what the city sites looked like for the AIs when they had the choices to begin building the wonders. The AI does not make a country wide decision about when and where to begin building a wonder, they just look at their relative power ratio in terms of territory, cities, and units and then begin to allocate the next available city to start production of a wonder.

Remember to make it clear whetehr you are talking about specific timing of events in the predator game versus the open/conquest class games combined.

Testing tends to indicate that more random stupid things tend to effect the AI players in PTW and in particular worker progress is frequently disrupted by improper implementation of the "sentry" decision cycle. PTW workers tend to drop their shovels and run like frightened oompah loompah's at even the slightest hint of a nearby unit. As a result the average early wonder completion dates by AI's in PTW may tend to be later than under indentical situations in the standard game.

What factors do you think tended to dominate the successful early wonder positioning??

Persia and Carthage were both industrious civilizations (had Masonry and instant access to the Pyramids) and had extra starting settlers, so why did neither of these two civs tend to end up building the Pyramids?

The French and Egyptian Starting positions were strong and ideally suited for growth and trading, why did neither one of these civs tend to build the Pyramids?

A number of people reported that the Minoans built the Great Library. How in the heck could this possibly occur?

Is there any possible way to have a greater influence on which civs build which wonders and where??

Do you have some specific examples from this game??

Ancient Age Wonders in my game:

Pyramids: Greeks 925BC
Oracle: Ottomans 925BC
Colossus: Persia 630BC
Lighthouse: Minoans 330BC
Great Wall: Celts 70BC
Great Library: Ottomans 70BC
Hanging Gardens: Persia 450AD

In my game the 14 civs (Rome was eliminated very early) were pretty evenly matched through most of the game. It was only when I got ahead in tech and could sell techs for thousands of gpt did I pull away.

To this rather novice player it seemed to me that room to expand was the deciding factor in building lots of wonders. The Ottomons and Persians had relatively large areas of land to expand in before bumping into other borders and consequently Ottomans and Persians built three wonders. The Spanish built two in the middle ages once they had established greater areas of land.

With reference to the other civs you mentioned in your post, the Egyptians were always far behind in tech. I could never figure out why since they had good amounts of territory but they were always behind. France kept pace fairly well but their starting land mass was almost entirely grass & plains, not much shields to go around. The Persians did build three wonders, but I was surprised during the game that their first wonder (Colossus) was not built in their capital. Entremont did finally build the Great Wall in 70BC and Sistine in 720AD. I think Carthage was just too squeezed to be in a position to build a wonder fast enough. They were surrounded on that land mass, with the Hittites, Egypt and Zulus to contend with.

The other civs were in a state of almost constant war for most of the game with little being gained on either side. I think this led the AI to spend more time building units. Only the civs with more territory built wonders. Civs that were surrounded on three sides by water seemed to build or attempt to build more wonders than the civs that had many nations at their borders.

Adam

In my game the first wonder to be constructed was the oracle in Berlin at 1075 BC. The second was the colossus in Zimbabwe at 975 BC. The pyramids werent completed until 490 BC and then it was by the Minoans in Knossos. The GL was completed shortly after in Sogut by the ottomans in 470 BC.
Looking at my 1000BC save I would say that in order for an AI city to have good shot a getting a wonder the city needs to have at least one bonus shield resource within its fat X. It would also need a luxury hooked to that city and better yet with access to another one.
This suggests a number of things to me-Firstly if you want early wonders in the civs next to you dont mess with their luxs or workers. Better yet build a road to them and give them one of your luxs as well. ;) Also in order to increase the chances of neighbouring civs building useful early wonders send your scouting warriors on pillaging missions to distant civs-cutting likely wonder building cities supply of luxs.
I think that one of the reasons that Knossos may have had a better shot at building the pyramids in my game is that I tend not to extort workers off of civs early in the game so even if PTW turns the workers into complete boneheads they will still have the opportuinity to do something for their civ.

the Pyramids where built by either Germany or the Ottomans and they always ended up being built in the same cities.
Not in my game, I built them myself :) When I was watching the end-of-game replay I saw that Atlantis built 4 cities around the third turn so I figured they were given extra settlers. I also get the impression Atlantis was told to "build often" culture giving improvements.

Oh sorry forgot to include my game was Open class, PTW 121. That is an interesting observation samildanach, especially regarding the luxuries. Perhaps my observation about the land mass is an offshoot of that -- the larger land mass means it was more likely that civ had multiple luxuries in its territory.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.21f



I wonder how much worker purchases influence things. The only nation I got to buy workers from during the QSC was Germany. That could have slowed them down and allowed the Minoans for built the Pyramids.

As for the Great Library - I build it as I was the first to literature and had an exclusive on that tech for awhile with the cascade broken at the time.

I also have the Ottomans bulid the Oracle.

PTW 1.21 Open
In my game the Ancient Age wonders were built as follows:

Pyramids: Celts, Entremont 510BC
Oracle: Ottomans, Sogut 750BC
Colossus: Persia, Bactra 510BC
Lighthouse: Persians, Antioch 10BC
Great Library: Minoans, Knossos 150BC
Hanging Gardens: Germans, Leipzig 90AD

I don't know what happened to the Great Wall, on a qiuck check maybe I missed it or it was destroyed before I saw it.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif [ptw] 1.21f

Well I checked and early save

Pyramids were built in Germany in 1125BC.
Colossus by Persia in 1475BC
GreatWall in Sogut in 430BC
Oracle in Sogut in 1275BC
Great Lighthouse by Zulus in 1025BC

I am not surprised by 2 wonders in Sogut. It is high food 3 bonuses and forest for high shields. No mountains but a lot of grassland for quickroads and mines. Not sure why the AI workers mine the food bonuses ??

Berlin is a bit more surprising. Mountains and hills with 1 food bonus. I don't know what the Germans traits were but maybe the Pyramids were flagged for their new trait?

Parsaragard (Not the Capital) is a strong shield but weak food town but they were isolated for a long time and he filled his island quickly. The Capital is still jungle ridden in 330BC.

This save doesn't have the complete HG or Great Library.

I think the Great Wonder Priority is more about the specific trait flags than about the effects of the wonder. The Ottomans would put a High priority on the Oracle of they were religious (I am begining to think they are) and the Great Wall for the Industrious types.

The Zulu the same thing for the Great Lighthouse (expansionist) and Persia may be commercial in this game and puts a higher priority on the Colossus.

I would have to review my replay again to see if these wonders coincided with golden ages. It goes by soo fast I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the GA's but I did notice the extra settlers Cracker talked about.

Predator (Civ3 1.29)

Pyramids: Persia (Persepolis) 1125 BC

The jungle infested location of Persepolis doesn't look too inviting for a major worder build, but they got the Pyramids anyway. Maybe they just started the Pyramids right away due to the extra predator class settler and their starting tech of Masonry. Persia was to become a good trading partner by the Industrial age.

Oracle: Germany (Berlin) 1275 BC

Germany built the Oracle early, perhaps starting it before the Pyramids were available. If they had started the Pyramids rather than the Oracle, they might have possibly beaten Persia although it would have been close.

Great Library: Ottomans (Sogut) 250 BC
Great Lighthouse: Minoans (Knossos) 925 BC
Great Wall: France (Paris) 450 BC

Germany was Military Expansionist
Babylon was Industrious+Religious (since the supposedly built the Hanging Gardens)
Russia was Expansionist Commercial (to bive them double sprwal capacity and lots of cash)
Persia was Industrious Expansionist (to give them a tech leg up from huts in their isolated start)
Ottomans were Industrious Militarisitic

The starting techs were held the same so their starting unit wix and tech path would be unchanged.

------------------------------
And just to clarify the discussion so no one confuses themselves, when the Greeks built an early wonder that adds an artificial variable to the process just as understanding any potential wonder cascades can alter the picture.

When you see something like:
Pyramids: Greeks 925BC
Oracle: Ottomans 925BC

that could well have been a cascade effect.

The AI civ turn order progression in this game was:
Russia, Atlantis, Zulus, Hittites, France, Germany, Persia, Babylon, Celts, Spain, Ottomans, Carthage, Egypt, Rome, Minoans

[ptw] 1.21f Open

Oracle - Germans 1050BC - Berlin
Colossus - Persians 925BC - Pasargadae
Pyramids - French 670BC - Paris
Library - Ottomans 470BC - Sogut
Lighthouse - Zulu 390BC - Zimbabwe

In 10AD, the Wall is being constructed in Thebes, Carthage, Entremont, Pasargadae, Berlin, and Zimbabwe

I was peaceful throughout this time period, in fact if I recall correctly had not yet been involved in a shooting war. The wonders built up to now in my game appear to be largely the result of how the AI is programmed to work when relatively unmolested.

[ptw] 1.14f OPEN

Collosus 1575BC Greece Athens
Oracle 1025BC Greece Athens
Pyramids 750BC Germany Berlin
G. Library 390BC Greece Athens
Lighthouse 170BC French Orleans
Gt. Wall 150BC Minoans Gortys
Hng. Gdns 10BC Persians Bactra (by 3 turns damn them!)
Sun Tzus 540AD Greece Athens
Sistine 550AD Greece Athens
Leos 710AD Carthags Sabratha
Bachs 830AD Greece Athens
Copernicus 970AD Spain Madrid
Magellans 970AD Persia Pasargadae
Smiths 1150AD Celts Entremont
Newtons 1150AD Persia Sidon (by 1 turn :wallbash: )

In my game the AI only completed wonders in either their Capital or in a coastal city. The coastal cities were not necessarily their largest, but they were invariably shield rich.

Persia completed 3 wonders despite being only 6th in the histograph. Their lack of power may have been in part due to them being hamstrung by building so many wonders.

Spain and Persia ALWAYS began building a wonder on the turn it became available. This may also be true of the celts and the Carthaginians but I can't remember for sure.

Rome, Hittites, Egypt, Zulu and Atlantians never ever even started building any wonder at all - ( I've checked a number of saves). For Rome and the Zulu this is very surprising as they had decent terrain and were high in the power charts. However they were both involved in early wars which may have modified their build queues somewhat. Later in the game both were backward and never had the opportunity to build wonders.

Persia were the the most successful wonder builders, and looking back I should have built a few boats and kneecapped them early. My (tentative) view on this is that it was the industrious trait that allowed this combined with no early wars.

The other Civs seemed a little more selective about wonder building. Spain in particular were very powerful but rarely began wonder production on the turn it became available. IIRC they did it once and completed it successfully.

Hmm... This is only a partial post, I will look into this and report back, because the Minoans did build the Great Library in my game...

I DID buy 2 early workers off the Germans, because I deliberately wanted to stunt their growth. 1 each from the Ottomans and Russians too, which probably didn't help Sogut (although they did get Pyramids and the Great Wall).

Expect a more indepth report in a day or so.

Well the Great Wall to Ottomans makes sense. It is a "one HIT Wonder" for them and gets them an early GA.

I can't remember if the Pyramids are flagged for industrious and religious or expansionist and religious.

Persia getting Colossus is not a surprise at all given they started with extra settlers and units in the Predator game. Also IIRC it is flagged for there new expansionist trait. Not to forget they started with the Bronze tech.

I'm going to have to look at home to be sure, but I do know this for a FACT:

Pyramids were built in Paris in my game.

I have guesses on a bunch of the others, but I'm not positive, so I'll wait till I'm sure before posting more.

In my game i got
France-Pyrimands
Ottomans-Oracle
Greece-GL
Greece- Lighthouse
Minoans-Colossus
Celts- Great Wall

Moscow got the Pyramids
Berlin the Oracle
I rushed with a GL the Great Library in a recently captured Minoan town.

don't recall who got the lighthouse, colossus and GW.

[ptw] 1.21 - Predator

I tried to make some sense out of my game and why certain civs built the following in order...but could not:

1550BC - Colossus - Persia (Pasagadae)
1325BC - Pyramids - Persia (Persepolis)
1325BC - Oracle - Germany (Berlin) - Cascade from Pyramids
1125BC - Great Lighthouse - Minoans (Knossos)
775BC - Great Library - Celts (Entremont)
775BC - Great Wall - Russia (Smolensk) - Cascade from GL
300AD - Hanging Gardens - Ottomans (Sogut)

Why Persia got Pyramids and not the Ottomans is beyond me. I looked through my notes. I don't think I was ever notified that they even started to build the pyramids. Certainly, of all the capitals of the time, Sogut was the most powerful and should have built something prior to 300AD. I was notifed in 1500BC that they started on the Oracle, but he was waay behind the others at that point. They only thing I can think of was that Persia had the following advantages
a. They started with Masonry
b. They probably had their first lux connected sooner...since wines was right next to their capital.

The earliest record I have in my notes is a notification that Germany started the Pyramids in 2390BC. They aquired Masonry (probably through the Ottomans) the turn before..and started right away.

My 1000 BC game showed everybody I knew was working on the Great Library. I can only guess that Celts started first.

It is probably the predator factor, but it seems the AI completed wonders in my game LONG before some of the other games I am seeing here. I am glad I never bothered to try. Getting pyramids before 1325BC would have been a hefty investment for the Human player. One more point that playing predator is a bit more difficult than open (imho).

Thanks for this exercise Cracker. I have never bothered to go back and analyze stuff like this. Is there any way to open up old saves and 'uncover' parts of the map you did not have access to at the time to gain further info?

Originally posted by rabies
Getting pyramids before 1325BC would have been a hefty investment for the Human player. One more point that playing predator is a bit more difficult than open (imho).

A bit more difficult to build the Pyramids, maybe - but not more diffficult to launch a spaceship by a very early date, the prime goal for many players.

Germany built the Pyramids in my game, but I could have beaten them to it (I went for the Colossus instead). In speculating as to why Germany built it and not someone else, all I can come up with is that they had the best starting soil of any civ, and so were most likely to both expand sufficiently and have the resources to build the most desirable wonder.

In my (conquest ptw) game, which was peaceful early.

850 BC Pyramids Berlin
730 Colossus Seville
650 Oracle Persopolis
450 Lighthouse Zimbabwe
250 Wall Sogut (Ottos)
190 Library Knossos

360 AD Gardens Leipzig

At 600 AD, when I'd recently completed Leo's,
14 civs were building Sun Tzu, and 11 were also building the Sistine.

I didn't war with the Germans or Minoans until later. By the time I took out the Germans, they had a bunch of wonders: Pyramids, Sun's, Sistine, Bach.

Carthage, the strongest AI in my game, had no early wonders and few if any later ones.

Originally posted by Txurce
A bit more difficult to build the Pyramids, maybe - but not more diffficult to launch a spaceship by a very early date, the prime goal for many players.

True. The game reports do seem to indicate the predator players are changing ages sooner.

My goal was to achieve the best jason score I could, while still maintaining as fast a launch as I possibly could. In that respect, being able to build the pyramids probably would have gone a long way in greatly increasing my score...without hampering my launch date by a significant amount. I was rather bummed when Persia grabbed it...eliminating the chance for it to be a useful wonder to me in this game. I envied the reports of others, where it was built by a close neighbor. :(

Predator 1.21f

This was the sequence of acient wonders in my game:

1350 BC Oracle Ottomans
1350 BC Colossus Persia
1025 BC Pyramids France
1000 BC Great Library Germany
900 BC Great Lighthouse Greece
610 BC Greta Wall Germany
50 AD Hanging Gardens France

The influence the human player can take is to give away or trade techs required for wonders to civs you want that they build it before xou trade with anybody else.

Ronald

Open Class [civ3mac] 1.29

1025BC Pyramids in Athens beating Sogut, Paris, Moscow (of the known world)
925BC Oracle in Paris beatiing Sogut, Paris, Moscow, Entremont
430BC Colossus in Zimbabwe beating Rheims, Odessa, Mo.Cs
410BC Great Library in Sogut beating Paris, Moscow, Berlin, Gortys, Camulodunum
410BC Great Wall in Berlin
330BC Great Lighthouse in Athens beating Rheims, Odessa, Mo.Cs, Knossos, Aydin
360AD Hanging Gardens in Lugdunum beating everybody because they started first (270BC)
550AD Sun Tzu's in Leipzig (coast, 3 pearls giving production power); this also led to making Germany a target for conquest (we capture Leipzig in 700AD).
700AD Leonardo's in Sogut making it our next target (captured 1020AD)

PTW 1.21 Open Class

Oracle - Berlin - Germans - 1075BC
Pyramids - Sogut - Ottomans - 850BC
Colossus - Minsk - Russians - 570BC
Great Wall - Sogut - Ottomans - 130BC
Great Library - Zimbabwe - Zulu - 50BC
Great Lighthouse - Lugdunum - Celts - 30BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage - Carthaginians - 30BC

Other people have mentioned that the Minoans built wonders in their games, looking back over my notes I see that I bought 2 workers from them in 1525BC and another in 750BC and probably stunted their growth somewhat.

Also in 800BC I bought a worker from the germans (after they built the Oracle, for some reason in every game I play the germans ALWAYS build the Oracle). In 775BC I buy another 2 workers from them. The Germans never really got anywhere either.

In a slight off shoot I would just like to say that the germans were annoyed with me the whole darn game, nothing I could do ever brought even a hint of a smile to Ottos moustachioed face.

French, Egyptians and Persians built nothing in my game although they did turn out to be OK trading partners in the Modern Ages, although nothing to compare with Russia, Ottomans and Carthage who basically funded my research and rushing throughout the IA.

Also can someone help me out here...
I see other peoples games from long long ago with rediculous amounts of land and little AI left yet they avoid the Domination limit??? Is there some skill or trick involved here that the HIGHER POWERS would care to share with us mere mortals?

Melifluous

PS. It seems that Sogut more than deserved the Nuke I gave it as I launched my SS, I hadnt realised that they built the Great Wall as well as the Pyramids. Well the Great Wall aint much of an SDI and the Pyramids aint gonna protect their ancestors bones from Gamma radiation, so there :p

PPS. Oompah loompahs? Willy wonker or wont he ;)

So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

Originally posted by cracker
So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

That does indeed sound like a darn fine plan...

I was pondering the effects of you buying the workers, didnt think of gifting workers :doh:

Confound my programmering one track mind...

:mad:

Melifluous

Cracker, if there is a Wonder that is out of reach yet indeed special, then the game is probably still at an early stage. Workers are so valued at this stage that the GOTM has the eq mod to avoid exploitation. It's hard to imagine that the loss of a number of workers at such a crucial time is worth it, given that you are losing them to increase the odds - not to guarantee - of that wonder being built where you want it. Have you had success with the tactic you suggested, at a time when it mattered?

PTW 1.21f Open

Oracle - 1075 BC Berlin/Germany
Colossus - 450 BC Antioch/Persia
Pyramids - 430 BC Carthage
Gr. Lighthouse - 250 BC Knossos/Minoans
Hang. Gardens - 70 BC Leipzig/Germany
Gr. Wall - 70 AD Knossos/Minoans
Gr. Library - 350 AD Berlin/Germany
Sun Tsu - 370 AD Bremen/Germany

As you can see, with the exception of the Colossus and the Pyramids, all of the wonders had been constructed by the Germans or the Minoans.
I still don't understand, why the Gr. Library was constructed so late. I really can't think of any reasonable explanation for this.

Looking at the locations, Berlin, Leipzig and Knossos seem to be well suited for wonder construction with enough food and hills around. I didn't wage any early wars against them, but rather traded like hell, so their financial and technological situation must have been pretty good through the Ancient Times.

I checked some cities for comparison in 130 AD.
Berlin - 14 Shields, 3 Food
Leipzig - 7 S, 2 F
Knossos - 17 S, 1 F
Entremont - 17 S, 1 F
Atlantis - 6 S, 4 F
Carthage - 8 S, 4 F

So Entremont is also a nice location, but the Celts waged permanent wars against the Ottomans, and Entremont is pretty close to the border.
Leipzig, the second best German city, is as productive as other capitols like Carthage or Atlantis.
Knossos has only produced the Gr. Lighthouse and the Gr. Wall so far. No city improvements, just two wonders in 130 AD ...

I checked some save games to see what was under construction at certain points of time.

1990 BC (contact with Germany,
none

925 BC (contact with the northern civs only)
Oracle: Berlin/Germany finished in 1075 BC

Pyramids: Knossos/Minoans; Uskundar/Ottomans; Entremont/Celts; Berlin/Germans; Paris/French; Moscow/Russians
Colossus: Zakros/Minoans; Lugdunum/Celts; Leipzig/Germans; Odessa/Russians

130AD (contact with all civs)
Colossus: Antioch/Persia finished in 450 BC
Pyramids: Carthage finished in 430 BC
Gr. Lighthouse: Knossos/Minoans finished in 250 BC
Hanging Gardens: Leipzig/Germany finished in 70 BC
Gr. Wall: Knossos/Minoans finished in 70 AD

Gr. Library: under construction by everyone but Atlantis

Looking at the above, there don't seem to be any cascading effects. Maybe the Gr. Lighthouse in Knossos was one (switched from Pyramids to Gr. Lighthouse). The construction of the Colossus and the Pyramids with just one turn in between must have been pure coincidence as Carthage was not a coastal city.

Atlantis simply didn't bother with building wonders (of course i can't verify that Atlantis never ever started a wonder). In 130 AD, four of the five top cities were Atlantan cities (only Berlin being in second position among them). So there is no need to start any wonders, if a civ has the top cities anyway?

Well, here's what I've been able to glean. Playing Predator 1.29

First, I did buy just the 1 worker from Germany, some time between 1000BC and 590BC. I bought 2 Russian workers between 590BC and 10AD.

I had 2 usable saves for examination - one 590BC, the other 310BC. The 310BC was an Anarchy turn save, so I hit return a few times to get me into a govt circa 250BC - that way I could establish embassies etc.

The WOW lineup in my game;-

The Collosus 1225BC Knossus (Minoan)
Pyramids 1075BC Sogut (Ottoman)
Oracle 1075BC Entremont (Keltoi Cascade)
Great Wall 630BC Sogut (Ottoman)
Great Lighthouse 410BC Richborough (Keltoi)
Great Library 90 BC Knossus (Minoan)
Hanging Gardens 90BC Entremont (Keltoi Cascade)

From the 590BC Save

Great Lighthouse Production

Knossus Minoan 14 turns
Leptis Minor Carthage 88 turns
Salamanca Spain 53 turns
Richborough Keltoi 9 turns
Bactria Persians 134 turns
Orleans French 39 turns
Marassantiya Hittite 43 turns


Great Library Production

Phaistos Minoans 178 turns
Alexandria Egyptians 171 turns
Carthage Carthage 51 turns
Bursa Ottoman 120 turns
Toledo Spanish 180 turns
Entremont Keltoi 23 turns
Persepolis Persia 119 turns
Berlin Germans 71 turns
Paris France 34 turns
Hattusus Hittite 44 turns
Zimbabwe Zula 49 turns
Moscow Russia 34 turn

At this stage, all civs still in despotism.

For the 250 BC save (after Richborough had built the Great Lighthouse) these places were building the Great Library;-

Knossus Minoan 9 turns
Rome Roman 60 turns
Bursa Ottomans 336 turns
Alexandria Egypt 72 turns
Leptis Minor Carthage 9999 turns (anarchy)
Salamanca Spain 27 turns
Entremont Keltoi 16 turns
Ur Babylon 35 turns
Persepolis Persia 47 turns
Berlin Germans 25 turns
Zimbabwe Zulu 53 turns
Moscow Russia 21 turns

At this stage of the game, only civs still in despotism were the Babs and Persians, with Carthage still revolting. France had a war with someone - pretty sure it was Spain. I had just started a GPT deal with France for silks, and it ruined my GPT reputation for the rest of the game. :(

So, to put matters simply - Knossus just missed out on the Great Lighthouse, but pipped Entremont to the Great Library because of the cascade. It wasn't immediate, it took several centuries - but having stored up so many shields, it's understandable why Volak just put them towards the next wonder.

I can't really see much difference between Germany building the Great Library or the Minoans.

EDIT: One thing that delayed Ottoman and German wonders was a war between them around 300-200BC. I can't check the start date for sure, but they are going for it hammer and tongs around 10AD, so that certainly didn't help their cause.

Open Class

My early wonders:

Oracle - Berlin 1075 BC
Colossus - Pasargadae 950 BC
Pyramids - Entremont 450 BC
Great Library - Carthage 430 BC
Great Lighthouse - Knossos 410 BC
Hanging Gardens - Berlin 260 AD
Great Wall - Marseilles 260 AD

The completion of the Pyramids by the Celts caused a cascade to the Great Library and Great Lighthouse.

I never even attempted to build early wonders.

Konny,

Do not interpret the Atlantan Wonder build decisions that way. Atlantis was denied the ability to build all early wonders or they would surely have built 4 out of the first 8 wonders. The AI fixates on wonders even if they have no strategic value to them when obtained.

I see a few other Predator games that have the Great Wall going to the Ottomans. I think it has to do with the flags for industrious and militaristics but I also think that the Ottomans have a thing for researching Construction. First to get construction means in this particular case first to start the Great Wall (like cracker stated without reguard to value).

In another recent game (unmodded) I have seen the ottomans choose to research construction before some of the other techs such as lit, even if it gets them cheap libraries.

So what happens if you give/sell/trade workers to the civ that you want to build the that "special wonder"??

Wouldn't it be simpler to pull Moonsingers trick of developing the AI infrastucture yourself rather than gift them workers. Cracker as you have already stated workers in PTW aren't rocket scientists, who knows if you would get the desired pay-off by gifting. Although it does have the advantage that it might be quicker if they were put to good use- simply putting the workers in your capital and then trading them rather than having to march them over to the AI wonder city.
Also by helping out a nearby civ the wonder that they would most likely construct would be the oracle-one that I generally have very little use for.

I was going for a 20K victory and managed three of the ancient age wonders. I missed out on the GL and its massive 6 culture/turn which led to a cascade. Ancient age summary:

1175BC Colossus Athens
850BC Oracle Ottomans (Sogut)
590BC Pyramids Germans (Berlin)
530BC GL Russians (Minsk)
510BC G Wall Ottomans (Sogut)
510BC G Lighthouse Athens
340AD H Gardens Athens

As hotrod has said already, Sogut was well placed for high production and I don't think they suffered from any aggressive neighbours early on. I certainly kept well away from trouble but the downside was that all wonders were handbuilt until I ventured out to wage wars in the industrial age and got a couple of GLs.

A number of people had games where Persia built a number of wonders. In mine they managed none but I don't know why. I don't think that they were in any early wars.

I got four of the middle age wonders plus all the others (except strategic missile defence which was not avaliable) so only the Germans and the Ottomans stood out as successful wonder builders. They cerainly had the terrain but maybe what held the Germans back from getting more was their warmongering.

Many have much faster games but I was keen to hold back research to give my wonders time to accumulate culture without worrying about a space race defeat. However having read Mad-bax's entertaining report on his game, maybe I should be bolder. It sounds like he had much more fun as well as a far superior score. In the end I achieved my victory but a poor Jason score. Next month I will be more adventurous!!

edit: PTW 1.21 OPEN

Conquest 1.29f

I'm at work, so all I have is my game log. I don't know which cities. I'll come back and add them later. Since I didn't get any wonders (1st GOTM, 1st Monarch game) maybe this is what Cracker is looking for.

690 BC - French get Pyramids
670 BC - Ottomans get Oracle (not a cascade since France went first)
630 BC - Russians build Collosus.
590 BC - Minoans build Great Library.
310 BC - Zulus build Great Lighthouse.
90 AD - French build Great Wall
270 AD - Ottomans build Hanging Gardens

In retrospect, I could have gotten some of these with a pre-build or two. I don't think the AI's do pre-builds.

Lessons learned.

Cracker,
Your questions and queries are almost more then my feeble mind can take. I play the games and, I think I did well, but with all these side questions and observations, I guess I need to focus more what really happened. All I know is some civs tried to bring it on and I crushed them, nuff' said. ;)

Actually, I will try to look back at my save files and compare them to what everyone else had. I know I just need some more disipline to track what really happens. Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful !!!:love:

Wonders :
875 BC - Greece builds Pyramids in Athens
875 BC - Germany builds Oracle in Berlin
670 BC - Ottomans build Great Library in Sogut
550 BC - Greece builds Colossus in Athens.
310 BC - Persia builds Great Lighthouse in Bactra

As you can see, Germany was almost certainly trying for the Pyramids. (In fact this showed in the Wonder screen)
In a quick view of things I noticed a couple things about the wonder builders.
#1. Persia and Germany had a luxury in their capitol. (not sure if it was hooked up then)
#2. The Ottoman AI was so dumb that he founded Sogut on a Wheat bonus square. I would have hoped the AI would not be that dumb.

I would hypothesize that happiness makes a big difference in AI building. An AI with no happiness problems probably feels less inclined to build a Temple, and more to start on a wonder.

Both Ottomans and Germany also seemed to be hemmed in by Mountains. This may also be a factor. If the AI doesn't see much expansion area they might also try for a wonder instead.

Other than that I have no guesses.

Wonders :
875 BC - Russians build Colossus in Kiev
775 BC - Carthagians builds Pyramids in Carthage
730 BC - Ottomans builds Oracle in Sogut
490 BC - Greeks build Great Library in Athens
310 BC - Minoans builds Great Lighthouse in Knossos

I had a look at the 1000BC save and the following builds was in progress:

The Pyramids, built by Greeks in Athens, Ottomans in Sogut, French in Paris and Russians in Moscow.
The Colossus built by Celts in Mohács, Russians in Kiev.
The Great Lighthouse by Minoans in Knossos.
The Oracle by Ottomans in Iznik, Germans in Berlin and Celts in Entremont.

PTW 1.21f Open class

Well, there were no wonder cascades in my game

1325 BC - Collossus - Minoan
850 BC - Pyramids - Ottomans (I was already preparing my invasion of them to set up my second core, so this was a real bonus)
690 BC - Oracle - Carthage
450 BC - Great Library - Minoan (This nominated them as my number 2 target, after the Ottomans)
310 BC - Great Wall - Ottomans (Gave them a GA)
130 BC - Great Lighthouse - Persia
170 AD - Hanging Gardens - Greece (rushed with a GL in the formerly Ottoman capital, now the Greek capital, Sogut)

This meant that the Oracle and the Lighthouse were out of reach for Greece, but that didn't matter, as the Oracle became obsolete about 40 turns after Carthage had built it and I didn't really need the Lighthouse anyway. I already had all the contacts at that time and I was concentrating on getting the starting landmass under control before moving to distant (overseas) conquests...

CIVIII V1.29 Open.

I had many save files so I was able to go back after the game and investigate the cities when wonders were about to be completed. I would need to go back and investigate the cities when the wonders were started.

--------------------------------------------------------
925BC The pyramids created by France in Paris.
Paris is at size 6 (Grow in 1) with one entertainer, making 10 shields per turn. Paris has one lux, no infrastructure except palace. All tiles being worked are mined.
Four mined BG, one mined wheat.

France had started the Pyramids when made contact in 1990BC. Nobody else that I knew (Minoans, Germany, Russia) had started it at this time. Paris was at size 2 with 4 shields due to grow in one turn, with three excess food. Pyramids were due in 87. This means that Paris started three turns before I made contact.
It is interesting that Paris mined rather that irrigated the wheat.

At this stage (when Pyramids are built), we also know Minoans, Ottomans, Keltoi, Germany, and Russia.

Pyramids being constructed by Ottomans in Sogut, Keltoi in Entremont, Russia in Moscow.

Sogut is 21 turns from Pyramids. Has 5 citizens (one entertainer), grow in 7. Has no luxuries. Making 8 shields per turn. Switched to Great Library.

Entremont is 68 turns from Pyramids, is size 2, grow in 7. One lux connected. Has two mined BG tiles not being worked for lack of citizens. Switches to Oracle. He had just started building Oracle in Lugdunum but abandoned that build without wasting any shields.

Moscow is 44 turns from Pyramids. Is size 6, grow in 9. One entertainer, one lux connected. making six shields. Switches to Great Library.

----------------------------------------------------------
800BC The Oracle created by Germany in Berlin.
I am at war with Germany so I can't investigate Berlin. (War started when I refused tribute).

The Oracle was being built by Ottomans in Antalya, They had just started, so no cascade.

Keltoi in Entremont, Size 2, 5 shields per turn, 44 turns to go on Oracle switched to Granary with very little loss of shields. They didn't have any other wonder to switch to.

France in Lyons, size 3, grow in 3 (with Granary from Pyramids), Temple and one lux, five shields per turn, Oracle due in 50, switches to Great Library,

--------------------------------------------------------
650BC The Colossus created by Zulu in Zimbabwe.
I don't have contact so I can't do any investigation.

The Colossus being built by Minoans in Knossos, Keltoi in Lugnunum, Russia in Minsk.

Knossos, size 3, grow in 5, 6 shields per turn, The Colossus due in 16 switched to Great Library. He has irrigated BG in despotism. Has mined the sheep on the hills but only roaded the BG.

Lugnunum, size 3, grow in 4, 4 shields per turn. Colossus due in 39 switched to Great Lighthouse.

Minsk, size 3, grow in 4, 5 shields per turn.
Colossus due in 22 switched to Great Lighthouse.

---------------------------------------------------------
570BC The Great Library created by Ottomans in Sogut.
Sogut, size 7, grow in 36. one entertainer, one lux. 12 shields per turn.

Being constructed by Minoans in Knossos, Ottomans in Sogut, Germans in Berlin, French in Lyons.

Knossos, size 3, grow in 1, 7 shields per turn, Great Library due in 35, switched to Great Lighthouse.
He has now mined the bonus grass that he only had roaded when I looked before.

Lyons is size 4, grow in 1, one entertainer. Great Library due in 45, switched to library.

----------------------------------------------------------
290BC The Great Lighthouse created by Mnoans in Knossos.
Knossos size 5, no growth, 10 shields per turn. One entertainer, no infrastructure, no entertainers
.
Great lighthouse being created by Keltoi in Lugdnum, France in Orleans, Russia in Minsk.

Minsk size 7, grow in 7. One entertainer, 8 shields per turn, great lighthouse due in 13, switched to great wall and completed immediately.

Lugdnum size 6, grow in 16. One lux, no entertainers. 10 shields per turn, Great Lighthouse due in 12.


The Great Wall created by Russia in Minsk.
Cascade is broken.

Here it was interesting that there was only one turn difference between Russia and Keltoi and the order they played in determined who got the Great Wall when the Great Lighthouse was completed.
---------------------------------------------------------

I did not try for any of the ancient wonders. (I did start Pyramids in Thermopylae, but converted it to a temple when I saw that there was no way that I could beat Paris to it, even after merging workers into the city. I didn't want to risk going for any of the other wonders with so many rivals in the game.

When Germany declared war on me (950BC), I signed alliance with France and Minoans.

It would have been nice if Germany had built the Pyramids instead of France. Nobody that I had contact with was anywhere close to France in building it.
I don't know why Germany chose to start Oracle rather than Pyramids, not that it would have made any difference.

Open [ptw] 1.21f (Euro)

I've just performed a little wonder investigation. Here's a table of all of the wonder build dates (those with a green background were owned by the Greeks at the end of the game :)) :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Dianthus_GOTM21Wonders.png

I didn't even try for the early wonders, instead concentrating on expansion. The 1st Wonder I went for (and got) was Sun Tzu's, so the early wonders were un-influenced by human meddling.

I had a little look at some autosaves from just prior to the building of The Oracle and The Pyramids. At 1200BC (a little before the Oracle was built in 1075BC) I didn't know that many Civs, but investigated the following :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Dianthus_GOTM21BC1200Wonders.png

It's interesting that the Egyptians/Minoans/Hittites hadn't started building any wonders (they had the techs). Is there a number of cities they have to reach first, maybe (6)?

The following are the results of investigating known Civs at 710BC (a little before the Pyramids were built in 650BC) :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Dianthus_GOTM21BC0710Wonders.png

There is a lot more wonder building going on at this point, with every Civ (except Greece :)) building 1 or more wonders. I also had a little look at the terrain for the quickly expanding Zulus/Ottomans (with 12 cities each), and they both had lots of available grassland around their start position. The Hittites (with just 7 cities) had quite a lot of forest to clear, and were also pressed in by France/Egypt. I'm still not sure which came 1st, did the AI's stop expanding because they focussed so much on Wonder building, or did they run out of room for expansion, so start building wonders? They obviously aren't investigating competing Civ's Wonder cities, looking at the number that are building the Pyramids above!

Dianthus, this is great, as is the point you are making. The AI appear to start building wonders even when they have zero chance of completing them. The Hittites for instance trying to build the Collossus when the Zulu are 6 turns from completing it.

Is it true then that the AI doesn't investigate each others cities? The Hittites would not have even had to perform an investigation as the Zulus were building in their capital, they just needed to establish an embassy whilst the zulus were building the Collossus. Is this just another example of the stupid AI, or didn't the Hittites have an embassy with the Zulu?

Originally posted by mad-bax
Is it true then that the AI doesn't investigate each others cities?
I'm just surmising that from the data. Let me put it this way, if they do investigate, then they don't use the information gained!

Open PTW 1.21

1375BC - Colossus - Greece (Athens)
875BC - Oracle - France (Paris)
610BC - Pyramids - Monoans (Knossos)
570BC - Great Library - Greece (Athens)
490BC - Great Wall - France (Paris)
390BC - Great Lighthouse - Germany (Hamburg)
380AD - Hanging Gardens - Spain (Madrid)


While this list of completed wonders is interesting, I think there are too many variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.

A better way would be to list all the dates when the AIs start building wonders. You could then compare empire size and city productivity to determine when the AI governor decides to start a wonder.

But then you still have to worry about random build decisions and civ-specific governor preferences.

In addition, there is a chance of an AI rushed wonder.
I know for a fact that it happens - I lost a battle - saw a leader generated. The next turn a nearby city completed a wonder. I don't think it was pure luck that it happened that way.

Originally posted by LKendter
In addition, there is a chance of an AI rushed wonder.
I know for a fact that it happens - I lost a battle - saw a leader generated. The next turn a nearby city completed a wonder. I don't think it was pure luck that it happened that way.

Indeed yes, I've seen this happen many times. I had an Ottoman leader returning home from a battle with someone else walk right through a heavily guarded area, and totally surrounded it with units to make sure it didn't get home before my wonder build finished. IIRC we were allies at the time and I didn't want to just destroy it...

From what i remember it wound up like this.Berlin oracle Sogut gl:mad: Athens lighhouse only one left:cry: Colossus persia forgot city have to check a save for the others

PTW 1.21 Open:
Pyramids:Ottomans-Sogut-630BC
Colossus:Persia-Pasargadae-950BC
GLH:Minoa-Knossus-310BC
GLibrary:Russia-Minsk-110AD
Wall:Greece-Sparta-130AD
SunTzu:Hittites-Hattusas-650AD
Oracle:Germany-Berlin-950BC
Hanging Gardens-Ger-Berlin-130AD

Rome was gone early circa 1000BC, Carthage seemed to be slow to initiate GW construction usually in Utica which seemed okay for shields.

Lots of examples, but I don't see the discussion going anywhere :
Does the AI go after a wonder that can trigger its GA ?
Can we actually influence the AI's choice of which wonder to build, or just support them in whatever they happen to be building ? And is the latter a valid strategy (gifting workers, luxuries, ...) ?

For the upcoming gotm it would be nice to see some reports of which civ started on which wonder, and when, and what factors may influence that decision (relative strength ? city position ? improved tiles ? luxuries ? ...).

Just to add data, in my game the Ottomans built the pyramids in Sogut and later the great wall in some other city. The great wall triggered their golden age.
I tend to buy workers willy-nilly from anybody in the ancient and middle ages. Perhaps the Ottomans were the best suited to withstand this negative worker pressure and this is the reason they got both of those useful wonders.

I copy each autosave automagically as it is created, and so I've built some embassies and done city investigations. I can only look at the civs I knew, of course, so I can't comment on what any of the southern civs did during the early game. They were way behind the north in techs when we met up.

In my game the early wonders were built as follows:

650 BC Pyramids - France, Paris
630 BC Colossus - Russia, Minsk
630 BC Oracle - Keltoi, Entremont
550 BC Great Library - Ottomans, Sogut
150 BC Great Wall - France, Marseilles
150 BC Great Lighthouse - Minoans, Knossos
150 BC Hanging Gardens - Keltoi, Entremont

The first three builds were independently started and were not cascaded. Paris and Berlin started the Pyramids race in 1725 BC. Both were building settlers when I first met them in 2140 BC , and these both completed in 1950 BC when the cities grew to pop 3. They then prioritised spears, both completing them in 1725 BC before starting the Pyramids. Paris' early rate was 4 spt with Berlin at 5 spt, but Paris increased its rate to 10 spt by the end. Berlin had fewer tile improvements and only reached 8 spt, so Paris won the race. I didn't buy any workers from Germany that would have slowed him down, so maybe he just had some bad luck with barbs.

By the end of the Great Pyramids Race there were five known contenders. I had decided not to bother, and Keltoi were not competing. It's interesting that the Keltoi went for the Oracle and the Colossus, both playing to their religious trait. Brennus had five cities when I met him in 1450 BC, and I'm gessing that he didn't have enough cities to warrant dedicating a third one to a Wonder. The finishing order was:

Paris - the winner
Sogut and Berlin 6 turns to go
Moscow 22 turns to go
Zakros (Minoan) 85 turns to go

Sogut, Berlin and Moscow switched to the Great Library when they were beaten to the Pyramids by Paris, and Sogut completed it in 550 BC. Marseilles and Knossos then switched from the Library to the Lighthouse, displacing Gortys which had been building it. The other known Wonder builders fell off the cascade at this point because none of them were coastal cities. So in 510 BC there were only two cities building the Lighthouse. Knossos won that one because it had been going longer than Marseilles.

Entremont won the Hanging Gardens competition in 150 BC leaving 6 other cities eating dust. The Keltoi were at war with the Ottomans in an alliance with me at the time, and they captured Sinop that turn, so I can only assume they won a Great Leader to complete the Gardens, as they still needed 18 more turns at 11 spt. In the same turn Knossos seems to have done some intelligent micro-management as their rate was 3 spt and they still needed 7 or 8 shields to complete the Great Lighthouse. However, there was enough shield production in the hills and mountains to complete it in one turn if they turned off food temporarily. That cascaded Marseilles to the Great Wall, completing the ancient wonder set.

The only mystery for me is why did Moscow and Zakros even bother to compete for the Pyramids. I guess every AI civ has a ration of Wonder cities and will try to use it no matter how hopeless the cause.

On a final gloat-note, after the Ancient Age Germany and Russia got to build just one more GW each and my often-gracious buddy Hannibaline built and kept the Sistine Chapel and Newton's Uni. So I finished up with 23 of the 25 Great Wonders.