View Full Version : Subject States and Federates
Aug 11, 2003, 10:22 AM
An unlikely feature but a wish none the less.
When imposing peace on a rival faction, it would be nice if you could force their civilization to become a subject state, as one of the terms of peace.
This would mean that their nation would become a puppet of yours. They would still control their infrastructure, but you can make changes as you see fit.
Positive aspects for the ruling nation:
Mutual-protection pact and right of passage
Transfer and/or direct control of military units (Mercenaries :D )
Impose government of choice (Force a communist regime on those lousy democrats)
Colonise their cities with your own people
Negative aspects for the subject state:
Subject states own culture gradually diminishes
Increased risk of culture flipping
Involuntary wars and loss of profit
Increased risk of rioting
You cannot declare war on anyone nor can you join any treaties
Ruling nation can place his military units in your cities
Aug 11, 2003, 11:51 AM
I've thought of this --something simliar to Europa Universalis. The difference is there are so few nations in Civ as opposed to EU. On the flip side is the fact that there are usually 1 or 2 (or more) nations that are SOO far behind in tech, culture, power, etc. that it would seem to make sense for them to join a major power.
The benefit for the "minor" nation would be possibly an instant jump to the most recent tech? sharing resources/luxuries? gaining power and prestige? perhaps there could be a "dual" victory? if the major power that is joined wins the game, they get dual win status (this would be the major impetus, since all civs are trying to win).
The minor power could not trade techs and/or make other types of treaties. They could, however, build military, wonders, etc., receive great leaders. As the major power, you would be bound to protect the minor civ. If the minor civ lost cities, the major power would lose major prestige.
There could be other things, but you get the idea.
I like this idea because I often don't see a point in keeping around such weak civs. All the other civs pounce on 'em. In attempt to get a part of the power grab, I attack too. I would like to be able to take them under my wing. Now, they're a part of my "empire" and I get some side benefits: residual tax, military units, etc.
I could always have an MPP with them, but then, I really have no reason to protect them. With making them a "protectorate" of your nation, there would be incentive to do so.
Good idea. I was just always afraid to bring it up. :goodjob:
Aug 11, 2003, 04:33 PM
Kraken and Cimbri, and I would like to see it developed in Conquest, or maybe in Civ IV.
IMO, a good incipit is to decide:
1] Which act makes possible for a Civ to go subject to a major one; in other words, where it happens the decision, in the foreigners advisor' screen, due to a request from the major power, or in a special window, alike the revolutionary window. It makes difference, 'cause diplomacy is a fine rethorical art, and is worth of bargain with the other powers.
2] Which act makes possible for a minor Civ to quit from a subdued condition; an idea coul be the difference in points from the major civ: when this difference falls under a certain valor, the minor civ obtain to go under “emancipation”’.
But the problem is what's going to happen then: the new founded nation ransom back all of his points, of his inhabitants [or more - the dwellers from the ex-major civ, also!], and all of his constructions.
And the major one can block this ransom with troops, or simply witness? [alike old England with brave americans]
3] The points [cultural and power ones] should be dealed unequally, so the major can obviously dodge any possibility of ransom by simple gaining of points
4] Maybe the increased risk of rioting should regard a lot more the ruling nation than the ruled one: you know, pacifists, civil rights defenders, Berkley students etc etc.
5] What happens if the cultural value of the major one is minor than the ruled nation?
6] Citizen draft is allowed, but generate rioting in which direction?
Aug 12, 2003, 01:03 AM
The idea has merit... Still IMO it ought to be viewed from the game play perspective too.
Turning the table around: Would YOU agree to a conditional surrender and be reduced to a vassal state?
If you lose completely control of your civ or even just the ability to get powerful enough in the future to break away then I at least would never surrender because for all practical purposes I'd be out of the game.
However I think that there just might be types of vassal treaties that I could accept in certain situations.
IMO that's also pretty much the dividing line we should use: if in a multiplayer game a human could accept a vassal status with the full expectation that he still has a chance to win then the "vassal treaty" ought to be balanced enough even for the AI.
Anyone got ideas? What kind of deal would YOU accept?
Could the following work?
- One-sided ROP. The liege lord's units can move in the vassal territory as if there was ROP in place, e.g. movement rights, use of roads, etc. However, the units of the vassal can't move in liege lord territory. (Unless they sign a real ROP, of course)
- No foreign policy. The liege lord declares war and peace and the vassal follows. To balance this there's an automatic MPP in place. If the vassal is attacked the liege lord declares war against the attacker.
- Taxation. The vassal pays X%, not TOO much (perhaps 20%?) of his net gpt to the liege lord. And that's BEFORE science and luxury so no dirty tricks with that slider! :)
- Resource usage. Any connected resource in the vassal territory above the one of each type the vassal himself uses goes to the liege lord. Effectively the vassal trades all his excess resources and luxuries to his liege lord for 0 gpt.
- Exchange of ideas. Research of techs either the liege lord or the vassal already know is at half cost to the other.
- Increased trade. Both the liege lord and the vassal civs get a bonus to their commerce relative to the other's commerce income.
Otherwise the vassal manages his own civ as he pleases preparing for that glorious day he's going to pay some debts to a certain liege lord. With interest. :)
Vassal Treaty is cancelled just like any other treaty. If the vassal cancels it it's an automatic declaration of war. If the liege lord cancels it it's a peaceful (well...) gift of independence giving him an attitude bonus.
EDIT: Added science and trade bonuses so there's something positive for the vassal, too. If you are falling behind then voluntarily accepting vassalage might not be a bad idea if you have the military might to get out of it later...
Aug 12, 2003, 06:58 AM
Hmmm interesting ideas here :) (a bit like in SMAC's Alien Crossfire when freeing a faction leader from slavery)
Would also go well with my ideas on Un Votings and Lesser Civilizations (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60785)
U have my vote !!! :goodjob:
Aug 12, 2003, 09:39 AM
Well thought out, Pembroke. Let's do it! :D
Aug 12, 2003, 12:43 PM
This idea sounds great, and a later age version of this could be a nation-merging alliance like what I thought up in the thread below.
Aug 12, 2003, 04:31 PM
No foreign policy
ok, but I think 20% it's a bit too much.
ok, but all of these treaties have to be dealed separately, and exspecially this one.
His impact is very hard.
Exchange of ideas
I Disagree. It's important that also the vassal state get some advantage from trading: so let it get all of major civ's techs!
ok, but which kind of bonus? If I sell something to you, and no other person is involved, I just can get a bonus if you get a harm! Otherwise I think it's needed a bonus for commerce, I don't know which.
Also try to think to a malus for the vassal nation: he can only commerce with his major one.
In a glance, your proposals are very good!
What about a Un sanction for vassallage?;)
Aug 12, 2003, 05:42 PM
you can have a puppet nation in hearts of irons but i not know how it works, but my point is that it can be done!!!!!