Inspired by another post:

originally posted by CurtSibling
Adolf Hitler, pagan nazi dictator and killer of countless millions, hater of christianity ...

I doubt that Hitler really did hate christianity that much. If so he did not let people know much of this.

Nor did the big heads of the Roman Catholic Church hate Hitler much.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/konkordat.jpg
This is a NSDAP campaign poster from 1933: it asks, why a Catholic had to vote for Adolf Hitler's Reichtagsliste, then gives some reasons, I can't decipher and closes with "Therefore the Catholic must vote for Hitler".

There was indeed a treaty between the Third Reich and the Vatican, called the Reichskonkordat. The treaty was nagotiatied under the influence of Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (future Pius XII).

A few articles:
§1 The German Reich grants the liberty of the Catholic Confession and Practice.

§4 Clerical postal exchange is not subject to control or censorship.

§5 insulting a priest is like insulting a state officer

§10 The use of "spiritual clothing" is restricted to lay persons as offical police uniforms are restricted.

§13 The property or real estate of the church will not be in question.

§18 The state will collect taxes for the church.

§21/22 Religious education in school is matter of the church.

§30 On Sunday, prayers for the wellfare of the German Reich and People will be spoken.

There is also a secret addendum to the Concordat:

Priests and priest-candidates are excluded from military service. If any other cleric person ever would have to serve, than it could only be a civilian task. (i.e. Red Cross)

Funny thing is, this treaty is still in place.

--------------------------
The german text:
http://www.ibka.org/artikel/ag97/reichskonkordat.html

I think they had to pass this because the NSDAP got the majority in mostly Protestant territories in Germany during the elections in the thirties.

Originally posted by Stefan Haertel
I think they had to pass this...
Whom? the Vatican or the NSDAP?
Maybe both saw some advantage in this deal?


..because the NSDAP got the majority in mostly Protestant territories in Germany during the elections in the thirties. [/B]

I have heard of these figures too. But didn't the "movement" start in Munich and Bavaria, which is catholic heartland?

I meant the NSDAP.
It is true, however.
I don't know why it is so, but the figures speak for themselves.
Fact is also that Hitler had a Catholic background, since he came from deeply Catholic rural Austria.

The Catholics, however, had their party, the Zentrum (BVP in Bavaria), and this party was voted in most Catholic areas.
Of course, this is to be seen relatively. We're talking about the parties with the most votes, of course other parties were voted for in these territories too.

If you like I can submit you two comparative maps showing religious background and parties voted for in July 1932.

Of course I like, go ahead please!


The Catholics, however, had their party, the Zentrum (BVP in Bavaria), and this party was voted in most Catholic areas.
Yep, that's true. But wasn't it said Centrum party that voted in favour of Hitler's Enabling Act, granting him dictatorial powers?

Let's see here. The Vatican is a tiny part of Rome. Hitler has a superpower on his hands. You'll sign anything to keep him away from you. The Catholic Church hated Hitler and visa versa. Hitler (He had a Catholic background but wasn't Catholic) didn't want to isolate the Catholic population in the south from the north and himself. The Catholic population wanted respect, during Bismarck's years as well. They got it and joined the state, though Bismarck didn't like them. Hitler did the same to keep them as a part of Greater Germany. At least, that's my opinion on the subject.

Would you believe me, if I said that Catholic churches, including the Sistine Chapel, hide 'undesirable' people from Hitler? The Pope also gave the United States the go on bombing monastaries occupied by NAZI's.

Originally posted by Zarn
Would you believe me, if I said that Catholic churches, including the Sistine Chapel, hide 'undesirable' people from Hitler?

Of course, there were some upright Catholics that denounced Nazi ideology. A well known Polish priest named Kolbe, "the Saint of Auschwitz" went to death for his believes. And he wasn't the only one.

But officially, there wasn't a criticism of nazi policy by the vatican, was there?

The Pope also gave the United States the go on bombing monastaries occupied by NAZI's.
Got any links?
Why would anybody want to bomb a monastery anyway? Because of its tremendous strategic value? I doubt it. (Yes, I know, Monte Casino...)

I kind find it on the internet. If I do, I will post it. I saw it on the history channel, though.

Until then, I will tell you what I remember.

It was in Italy. The United States send bombers to bomb a monastary occupied and fortified by NAZI's. The Catholics were given a choice whether or not to be a part of the mission. The Pope said to give them Hell. The Pope said it was defilled by the NAZI pressence.

I guess the NAZI's thought the US wouldn't bomb it.

Yes, the Italians did ally with the US, but only when the downfall of the Axis was unavoidable. Not much of Heroism involved in this case.

This is an italian map:
#2 being Rome#
# 7 being Monte Cassino
http://www.sacredsites.com/maps/italy_sm.jpg
This is Monte Cassino's monastery military story: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWmonte.htm

But anyway, the war was already lost then.

But why did the Vatican engage in Nazi friendship? Why was there never any word of complaint before 1943
when the conditions turned bad for the Axis? Only until when defeat was clear, the italians/the vatican changed the sides.

The Vatican was afraid of Hitler. They were afraid and rightfully so. Everything the Vatican did that Hitler wouldn't like was in secret. The Vatican was being two faced with Hitler. They played stupid friend in front of him, and help the 'undesirables' behind his back. Looking for Holocaust heroes on the internet should show it. The Vatican itself hide people. It doesn't sound like Hitler's ally to me.

Hitler hated the Catholics!!!! they were part of his "final solution". as many polish catholics died as polish jews. THAT IS INJUSTICE!!!!!!! y is that never mentioned in our textbooks????

Originally posted by PolishAssassin
Hitler hated the Catholics!!!! they were part of his "final solution". as many polish catholics died as polish jews. THAT IS INJUSTICE!!!!!!! y is that never mentioned in our textbooks????

it is mentioned many times that he killed millions of polish and soviet civilians

Originally posted by pawpaw


it is mentioned many times that he killed millions of polish and soviet civilians

exactly!!!!!!!!!! another part of his plan was the total extermination of the Polish race by 1976 (planning a lil too far ahead :nono: )

I read that the SS was given orders to destroy the Vatican when the Germans were pulling out of Italy.

But the Pope issued a huge bribe to Himmler and the attack was aborted...

Anyone hear of this one?

Originally posted by smalltalk

I doubt that Hitler really did hate christianity that much. If so he did not let people know much of this.


Such a treaty could, of course, be signed for purely pragmatic reasons.

Originally posted by Zarn

Let's see here. The Vatican is a tiny part of Rome. Hitler has a superpower on his hands. You'll sign anything to keep him away from you.

Richard III already answered (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1165522#post1165522) this point quite eloquently in the ' Germany did not stand alone'-thread. I think his reasoning applies here too.

The Vatican didn't even have a military to be defiant, so I fail to see your point. There wouldn't even be a fight, just a massacre. Modern popes are alot different from warrior popes. The pope had no real power to defy Hitler.

BTW, PolishAssassin is right. Catholics were to be killed as well. He just wanted to get rid of the more 'undesirable' people, first.

Originally posted by Zarn
The Vatican didn't even have a military to be defiant, so I fail to see your point. There wouldn't even be a fight, just a massacre. Modern popes are alot different from warrior popes. The pope had no real power to defy Hitler.


You as a Catholic are now belittling the spiritual power of the Papacy ? That's bizarre :eek: Also, the presence of a military is immaterial - the examples RIII gave were of countries that wouldn't have lasted long against the Nazi war machine either.

But your argument really is that they were only trying to save their skins - something rather out of character for an institution dedicated to a higher Power wouldn't you say?

There are books and such on how he defied him, underground. Doing it underground was very effective as opposed to having the Sistine blown away. why would you do? Would you declare war on Hitler? Sit there and let him crush you? Flee the Vatican? He also didn't support Hitler. He didn't send him military aid or anything. He only hid people from him. His cooperation was Hitler was very limited at best and only to avoid a massacre of the Vatican.

Originally posted by Zarn
Hitler has a superpower on his hands. You'll sign anything to keep him away from you.
The treaty is not so unfavourable to the vatican. In fact, it's a bargain.

The core of the deal says: The catholic church gets some privileges. Therefore it stays quiet. The church even promises to promote the Nazi State.

Sit there and let him [Hitler] crush you?
Yes, isn't this standard christian doctrine? To die for your faith, nailed to the cross.
The Vatican was being two faced with Hitler.

I can understand when politicans are two faced. I fully understand when people lie or "sin" because of human reasons. But from the Catholic Church, the placeholder-of-God-on-Earth, self-announced keeper of the holy faith, I'd expect more.

A pope who is not willing to be crucified does not live up to his successorship of Jesus.


Just imagine this situation: the Pope issues a anti-Nazi pamphlet, hence all the Catholic voters do not support Hitler, nor is Hitler supported by the Christian Centrum Party. - Well, Nazi story over before it really started! A tiny bulletin from the Pope, declaring the Nazis to be Anti-Christs, would have been sufficient.

But no. From the view of the Vatican, the Nazis had to win. The communists would have cut down catholic previleges severly. Remember how orthodox churches were raized in Russia? The vatican wanted to avoid this and therefore supported the Nazis.

Treaties like this were made with lots of countries that were no threat. The portuguese concordat for example seems to be very similar to those articles posted in the beggining of the thread. And the same with Spain's.

Originally posted by Zarn
There are books and such on how he defied him, underground. Doing it underground was very effective as opposed to having the Sistine blown away. why would you do?

Sources ? Also, let's not forget that the Catholic Church of the 193-s and 40s in many countries was at least a tacit ally of fascists - they were integral to the dictatorial governments of Franco and Salazar, inspired the Croatian Ustasha fascists, contributed to the widespread antisemitism in Poland and supported the Nazi client regime in Slovakia as well. A clear Papal denunciation of Nazism might have saved more lives there.

Originally posted by Zarn
Would you declare war on Hitler? Sit there and let him crush you? Flee the Vatican? He also didn't support Hitler.

The word is 'collaboration'. And, yes, I am asking for Pius XII to have allowed the Nazis to crush the Vatican if they felt like it - the Pope isn't there for temporal authority anyway like smalltalk said.
The Nazis weren't simply a temporal threat - they were a spiritual threat to all of humanity, and the Pope should have fought them on that level - but didn't.

Originally posted by Zarn
He didn't send him military aid or anything.

Of course not - as you pointed out, he didn't have any divisions. The Papacy operates on a different plane altogether, and even on that plane, it failed. If Catholicism is to mean anything, it cannot remain concerned with saving its own skin - instead, it ought to fight injustice wherever encountered.

Please understand that all this is not a bashing of Catholicism - rather, it is a criticism of Pope Pius XII and historical mistakes made by the Catholic Church. The Church, like most nations/institutions made grievous mistakes which cannot be readily excused. And I don't blame present-day Catholics for them.