The study of war weariness goes on. I will thank Bamspeedy and DaveMcW (any other?) for their research, it really helped.

General:
We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point). Each civ have one wwp number against each of the other civs.

The different levels of war weariness:Level wwp
-1: - 0 wh (war happiness)
0: 0 - 30 normal, no effect
1: 31 - 60
2: 61 - 90
3: 91 - 120
4: 121 -Effect of ww in war:

All government:
Level -1: 25% happy people

Republic:
Level 1: 25% unhappy people
Level 2: 50% unhappy people
Level 3: 50% unhappy people
Level 4: 100% unhappy people

Democracy:
Level 1: 50% unhappy people
Level 2: 100% unhappy people
Level 3: Revolt

Number of unhappy people is round down. The number from each civ is added together and subtract 25% for police station and 1 for US (Universal Sufferage). The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.

War happiness is calculated independent in the same way. (No effect of improvments)
War happiness from several enemies could really help

Calculations of wwp:
All starts at 0.
Subtract 30 wwp if the AI attacks you, except when AI is provoked by:
- use of nuclear weapons
- failed spy mission
Anything else? Please tell me if you find something.

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war. (In beginning of the turn)

The following describes the effect for a human:
Add 1 wwp for each
- lost unit without defence value
- improvment pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.
What if your cities get bombed?
There is a bug for these penalties. For a human-AI battle, the AI gets the same penalty as the human (he gets penalty for taking human cities, but not for losing his own). For an AI-AI war both gets the penalty the first AI should have. There seems to be no problem with human-human battles.

Subtract 1 wwp if level >= 1, no enemy inside your territory and no units in enemys territory.
Subtract 1/20 of current wwp each turn in peace (round up)

Assume you sign peace when you just have gotten 100% ww in republic (121wwp) and keep out of his territory. Then you will lose 8 wwp the first turn, 7wwp the next. It will take 19 turns to get down to level 0, and 43 turn until the war is totally forgotten.

For each turn you stay in enemy territory, or he stays in yours, add one turn. Unless the wwp is reduced to 30, or you are lucky with roundings.

List of turns and wwp
Turn 0- 1 reduction by 8: 121, 113
Turn 2- 3 reduction by 7: 106, 99
Turn 4- 7 reduction by 6: 93, 87, 81, 75
Turn 8-10 reduction by 5: 70, 65, 60
Turn 11-15 reduction by 4: 56, 52, 48, 44, 40
Turn 16-19 reduction by 3: 37, 34, 31, 28
Turn 20-23 reduction by 2: 26, 24, 22, 20
Turn 24-43 reduction by 1: 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

EDIT: Added info of how the AI gets wwp. Corrected some of the number of wwp given and the descriptions of when you get 1 wwp subtracted.

Oystein

There were a couple of threads in the Strategy & Tips Forum on this a while ago. Some of it corresponds to your info, some contradicts.

Major areas of disagreement:

* WW is totally forgotten after 20 turns of peace, and is totally reinstated if war starts before then. Your info states that it decays gradually instead.

* No way to reduce wwp total according to thread, you have found a way

* WWP added together for calculating effect, while you imply the effects are independently calculated

Here's a summary of those threads:newer thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58556)
older thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53114)


War Weariness

War weariness is a feature of the Republic and Democracy forms of government only.
War weariness is a reaction of your citizens to the hardships of war, and results in a varying number of citizens being made unhappy over and above the 'normal' number of unhappy citizens for a town of that size.
War weariness is identical in effect at all difficulty levels.

Creating War Weariness
War weariness is tracked through 'war weariness points' (WWP) which are gained as follows:
* +2 for losing a unit
* +1 for ending turn with at least one unit in enemy territory
* +15 if an enemy razes one of your cities.
* a small penalty if they capture your capital (+2?).

War weariness is at least delayed if war is declared on you, you effectively start at a negative WWP total.

How long you are at war does NOT affect war weariness
Enemy forces in your own territory does not affect war weariness

Effect of War Weariness
At the following threshold WWP values the noted percentage of citizens in each town are made unhappy. Note that excess luxuries etc does counter this.

Republic:
* 30WW 25% unhappiness
* 60WW 50% unhappiness
* 120WW 100% unhappiness

Democracy:
* 30WW 50% unhappiness
* 60WW 100% unhappiness
* 90WW Anarchy

WWP are independently tracked for each enemy civ. However the total active WWP for all civs is compared to the threshold values.

Combatting War Weariness
Ceratin improcvements and wonders may combat the direct effect of war weariness. Note that nothing changes the WWP totals at which the effects 'kick in' - only the actual effect is changed.

* Police stations remove 25% of the war weariness penalty in that city
(So at 60WW in Republic, the unhappiness percentage would be only 25%, not 50%)
* Universal Suffrage makes 1 unhappy citizens content in all cities

Ending War Weariness
You need to be at peace with that particular civ for 20 consecutive turns, before the WW is completely forgotten; if you resume war with that civ within 20 turns your previous WWP total is reinstated.


However it sounds like you've done quite a bit of research into this so I would not automatically assume the 'other' info were more accurate.

edit: added link and summary of CFC thread on WW

This seems to have some details that the other thread do not have.

Top.

I think this thread deserve more attention since it seems much more comprehensive than Bamspeedy's research. In fact, it deserve to be moved to the strategy article forum.

Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
This explains why defending at chokepoints or landing sites always seems to crank up weariness to such a large degree. I remember one particular instance where I fended off ~100 obsolete attack units in one turn at a chokepoint with minimal losses, but ended up with a fully weary Republic by the next turn.

Thank you Oystein. I'm not sure how much of your work was based on Bamspeedy's and DaveMcW's tests, but it is a very complete study. Why is this thread still not in the Strategy Articles forum? :confused:

Edit: Any idea how WW is affected in MP?

d-most important info since i understood who the city screen worked in civ2

I think I have discovered a bug. It looks like both AI and the human gets wwp when the AI takes a city, but none effect when a human takes an AI city.

I have not PTW, so I can not check how this works for multiplayer.

So the AI gets the same penalty of 15(17) wwp as well?
Or is the amount lower?

Just to make it clear, does an AI civ get that penalty when taking another AI city?

No wonder they switch from demo that fast...

Yes, the AI get the same penalty. We both lost 17wwp pr city (all city without wonder, so I have to correct my original post when I checked this better)

None of the AI get the penalty when one AI capture a AI city.

I am going to test more tomorrow. I have figured out where wwp is stored in the savefile, so testing is much easier now.

Just a wild speculation: maybe citizens nationality plays a role, or the culture status (expansion level...) of a city (so you had possibly made that assumption with wonders).

Anyways, I'm looking forward for the test.:goodjob::)

It looks like I got fouled be the reduction of wwp. I did not know excactly how it worked, so I made some wrong conclusions. I hope I have corrected all mistakes. Any comments are welcome.

Original post is updated.

I have not seen any of these penalties for an AI-AI war.

So are you saying that if 2 AI are fighting each other, then they never get any war weariness? If so, then something is wrong with your game, but not mine.

In my current game as the French, I had Egypt fight other civs. For awhile, egypt was fighting 3 other AI. I just checked her cities and she is in Republic and experiencing war weariness really bad (I have never fought her). With 1 luxury, temple, cathedral, JS bach's, Sistine, and colluseum her 12 citizens in Thebes are all content (none are happy) with some entertainers.

Perhaps the situation is that since I am in an alliance with her, she gets the ww penalties? Or the fact that the war was initiated by me?

Edit: I just saw this:

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war. (In beginning of the turn)

So is that the ONLY way the AI gets ww when in war with another AI?

P.S. I have saved games if you want to look at them.

I just said I never SEEN any of those penalties:) I have to admit my AI-AI war research was rather limited. But now, more testing is done.

The penalty for staying in enemies teritory, and bonus when enemy declear war is the same for all.

But for the rest I think the playing order determins how the penalty is given. In an AI-AI war the first player gets penalties as a human, the second gets penlties as an AI in an human-AI war.

Now I really starts to worry how this affects mp-games. Could someone test that please? (It is a bit late to by PTW now when conquest is just around the corner) Just make a scenario where a human player can capture at least 2 cities of a player with earlier playingturn. Let him start with republic and see if he gets ww the next turn.

Is there a way to let an AI player start in vanilla civ?

How will you differentiate between drafting and war weariness. I presume you can not see that from espionage?

However I would guess that Bamspeedys test was made before Egypt discovered nationalism?

Yes, in my game it is well before nationalism.

Oystein probably did his tests before the AI had nationalism, too. I think you 'might' be able to see the reasons for unhappiness of an AI if you use the Debug mode. And Oystein said he found where the WW data is stored in the save files.

Quote from MadScott:
Ending War Weariness
You need to be at peace with that particular civ for 20 consecutive turns, before the WW is completely forgotten; if you resume war with that civ within 20 turns your previous WWP total is reinstated.
-----------------
Here the situation as a Roman Democracy, and just finish rep. part science (which only give me to upgrade to transports):
Turn 1. My ally UK been attacked by GR and Iraq, so I've been forced to declared war to Iraq and GR (which most of them were on main island).
Turn 2. The next step was to destroy 3 iraq cities which was on the same small island with me. This was done.
Turn 3. At this point, I cleared up some vessels around my islands to make sure that they were not going to bombard my main island.
In the same time, I sent cavalries (around 40 of them) aboard, which took 2 round to go to main islands.
Turn 5. I just landed next to Iraq Capital Salamanca.
Turn 6 and 7. I took 2 Iraq cities including the Capital. At the end of this turn Iraq request for peace, which I refused to ack. their envoy.
Up to this point, I realized that many ww was quite high, but still could be handle since I have temple, cathedral in all cities and traded luxuries with UK and Aztec.
Turn 8...12, I destroyed 3 GR cities, and GR also asked for peace, which I turned down. As the result, the next turn, most of my cities including my own capital was in chaos. That was enough. I reload the game until turn 7. But at this time I accepted peace with Iraq (the next turn we would at war again since Iraq was still attacking UK. But I checked here, my ww was still low, and It didn't seem to hurt my rep).
Then I took again GR cities, GR asked peace which I accepted it. Unlike Iraq, GR didn't bother to attack UK, in 2 turns GR peaced UK. At this point, UK, Aztec, and I had war with Iraq, and I realized my ww was still low, even until around another 10 turns before Iraq been destroyed.
So the point here is:

Under democracy, when your enemies asked peace, you should make peace with them, otherwise your ww would be very high. If the next turn you are still at war with him (because of the ma), it wont increase your ww.

Welcome to CFC, binyo66!

While I agree that demo is bad during war, I think your game fits to the ww rules (as far as they are at least known by now).
I guess that you reached level 1 (50% unhappy under demo) pretty fast (no arch enemy [?] and MPP triggered war declaration). That level might have been still acceptable due to luxs deals etc.
Then 40 cavs being shipped to enemy territory have at least a great potential to reach level 2 (100%! unhappy) in short time. I guess you reached that level around turn 8-12.
But AFAIK wwp are cumulative for each civ. And after reloading, you simply missed the "GR" wwp contribution. Thus I doubt that refusing their envoy increases ww. Of course, I am just guessing (that thing may be worth a test as well). I think the missing attacks from "GR" just avoided ww level 2 during turns 8-12.

Your rep, however, is defintively shot if you signed peace w/ Iraq and their new attack on your ally forced you to re-declare war on them. Try to negotiate with a neutral civ that has actually contact to Iraq: they'll say "we kow what you did to Iraq" or such similar if you try to put some gpt/resource on your side of the table (note: this is NOT true for peace [re-]negotiations, though!!).

Your ally will not be aware of that rep hit as long as he's also at war with the civ you've betrayed (by breaking the peace treaty).

Thx Grille,

The idea to reloading and making peace came after I checked my capital rome while it was in chaos. Many of my own citizens say, "Give peace a chance". And others says like "too crowded."

At that game, after beating Iraq, somehow US attacked UK and forced me to declare war to US. But this time, I used tanks and didn't need the transports.
The interesting parts in US war were
1. US never asked for peace even untill the last city been taken.
(in average I took every turns 2-4 US cities) And none of my cities including the new my US city which I just took was in chaos (and usually I just dump a lot of cavs to settle with US citizens, and let them starved, while my healthty tanks kept moving to a new target). I think since US didn't ask for peace, my citizen was still happy, anyway, US attack my ally UK first. Actually, during US war, I could broke up my mpp with UK (it was expired anyway), but I'm not sure if it would hit my rep or not during the war.
2. US didn't ask GR to ally against UK and me. I think, because GR made peace with me during GR/Iraq again UK and me (well I am not sure).

binyo66:
As I understad it, you never went to war against GR after you reloaded. I think you had 50% ww from both GR and Iraq. Your short peace with Iraq made no difference. It is because of the peace with GR your ww are less than the first time.

Grille:
wwp are kept for each civ. The effect is cumultativ. If you are in war with 30 civs each with 29wwp, you still got no ww. But 2 civs with 30wwp gives 2*50% ww for democracy.

I have tested rejecting peace offer/envoy. I could not see any effect.

Oystein

I was in war and took 3 GR Cities which force them to sent an envoy to me (which I accepted and made peace), and true after that I didn't make war with GR until I destroy US civ (and had to renewed peace treaty with GR, I couldn't afford two front war). The only thing was, when I rejected GR envoy under demo (which made my capital citizen in ww mode), I checked that many citizens cried out for giving peace a change (they didn't like the war with GR?!?). But while I was in war with US, my citizen ww mode was still low eventhough the war was more than 20 turns. Is that because of US didn't sent an envoy? or other reasons ? (I tried to send an envoy to US after took some of its cities, they desperately wanted peace with me). Another reason, that might affect during the war with US was, my tanks was at most only 1 turn in US teritory, the next turn it would be my teritory. After war with US, I made war with GR again (by not renewing the peace treaty), and this time I used MA. Most of the time my MAs never in GR teritory, I sent them, and then took the city in the same turn. And you might be right, I made war at this game only with 1 country at the time (exception the first war in main island which I had to be in war with Iraq and GR). But I always in war since I sent my 40cavs until I was declared Dominate Victory (Thanks for UK and Aztec).
My conclusion after this game are:
1. Demo is not good for long war, except you can take city in 1 turn (Cavs, tanks, MAs and MIs), and make sure your troops in friendly area.
2. Try not to make war with more than 1 civ for a long war.
3. I think when they sent an envoy, you have to accept it (at least that what my citizens in my capital...). And I think you are right it would effect my rep (which I prefer to lost rep, rather than my country in chaos, and could not produce units).
4. Others such as Police Stat, luxs, Uni Suffer are also important.

Oystein> an observation about WH from my game with multiple WH. It seems that the WH effect is limited to 1 per citizen. I had 5 WH now and I am gaining 5 WH for size 5,6,7 towns, 8 WH for a size 8 city, 9 WH for a size 9 city and 12 WH for a size 12 city (I should get 5WH for size 4-7 cities, 2*5=10 WH for size 8-11 and 3*5=15 for size 12 city). I need more data to confirm but that is my preminary conclusion about calculating all the happiness and unhappiness sources.

The same might apply to WW. You may want to investigate and confirm.

Originally posted by binyo66
But while I was in war with US, my citizen ww mode was still low eventhough the war was more than 20 turns. Is that because of US didn't sent an envoy?
-No

or other reasons ?
-Yes, you probably lost fewer units, or you signed peace with Iraq or finnished them off.

Another reason, that might affect during the war with US was, my tanks was at most only 1 turn in US teritory, the next turn it would be my teritory.
-That helps.

My conclusion after this game are:
1. Demo is not good for long war, except you can take city in 1 turn (Cavs, tanks, MAs and MIs), and make sure your troops in friendly area.
2. Try not to make war with more than 1 civ for a long war.
3. I think when they sent an envoy, you have to accept it (at least that what my citizens in my capital...). And I think you are right it would effect my rep (which I prefer to lost rep, rather than my country in chaos, and could not produce units).
4. Others such as Police Stat, luxs, Uni Suffer are also important.
1: It is more importent to avoid losing units.
2: Yes, but even 1 long bloody war gives much ww.
3: No, I dont think refusing envoy has any effect.
4: Yes.. well, the US has not an huge effect.

Hi Qitai, I think I already has mentioned that

Originally posted by myself
The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.
If I understand you correctly, this is the same as you are discribing.

If you have 1 war giving 100% ww, you would not notice any additional ww.

If you have 125% or more ww, the police station would not have any effect since you are above the limit anyway.

The ww and wh are calculated independent.

Good news:

In Conquests, the AI no longer seems to get WW when it shouldn't (ie when the human suffers). I tested it with one AI vs one human.

Also, in MP C3C, WW seems to happen at the same levels as SP. I tested it in hotseat.

Originally posted by alexman
In Conquests, the AI no longer seems to get WW when it shouldn't (ie when the human suffers). I tested it with one AI vs one human.
I cant see that anything has changed. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70172
How did you test this? Maybe your test just missed the bug?

Well, at least it looks like it works ok for humans in mp games. Testing in hotseat turned out equal for human players.

:wallbash:
My bad. Sorry. :o

I can understand that WW might be affected when you lose a city in war, but what happens when you (or your dastardedly PBE opponent), unsportingly chooses to demolish a city before the forces of righteousness (ie: me) can storm it?

Thanks this is really helpful as some of the factors I didn't know had such a big chunk of war werriness with them.

Didn't WW changed any with the Favorite/Shunned Government concepts ?

How do these influence the game ?

Favorite/Shunned govs have nothing to do with WW - only with AI attitude toward you.

Is there any way to see what my wwp is?

Also, what causes War Happyness to expire?
It is somwhere around 20 turns from the declaration of war?
Or do you get some wwp "credit" and War Happiness goes away once you've spent it?

Maybe some combination of the two?

Any experience on this?

WH works the same way as WW. So, it basically something like getting wwp credits and goes away when you've spend it. This essentially means if you know how to manage the wwp well, WH can last forever if you do not make peace.

Thanks Qitai,
Any idea if you get wwp credit for capturing enemy cities?
I think my war happiness went up just after I captured a city.

No, you get -30 wwp when you are declare upon as Oystein mentioned. And this credit goes only in one direction. There is no way to accumulate more wwp credits for each civ (Although you can get multiple WH by having more than one civ declaring on you). When it reaches zero, you lose the WH. And once it reaches 30, you start to get WW for representative governments.

For WH and WW, you need to know there are trigger population size. WH gives one happiness for every 4 pop. This essentially means if you have 3 pop, you get nothing. But if the town reach size 4, you get 1 happiness from WH. When you reach size 8, you get 2 happiness from WH and so on and so for.

seagull,
if you really got more happy people in your empire right after capturing the city, you either got a lux hooked up in the process or triggered a MPP.

PS:
Maybe you captured a content-making Wonder?

Has anyone tested these results for Conquests?

I am suffering level 1 WW in a C3C game and I need to know how the AI's WWP are calculated.

It seems the AI gets 1 WWP per turn if it has units in your territory, which also means your WWP will not decrease during those turns.

I am unsure what this means:
The following describes the effect when the human is attacked, the penalty is given to both the human and the AI. If the AI is the suffering part, none gets wwp. (This has to be a bug.)
I have not seen any of these penalties for an AI-AI war.
Add 1 wwp for each
- lost unit without defence value
- improvment pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.I'm being stupid, but are you saying that if I attack an AI unit and kill it that the AI gets the wwp (2 in it's territory or 1 in mine), or we both do?

Just for clarity, can someone please state the conditions for the AI to get WWP in a war against me.

You get WWP when you get attacked or when you lose a unit. You don't get points when attacking succesfully. This would make war under democracy nearly impossible.
The point for being in his territory is recived once every round you are, the same if he has units in your territory.
I think the ai gets the same penalties as you do.

Oystien's post explicitly states the AI doesn't get the same penalties as the Human, or (quite possibly) I misunderstood this:
The following describes the effect when the human is attacked, the penalty is given to both the human and the AI. If the AI is the suffering part, none gets wwp. (This has to be a bug.)

anarres:
Has anyone tested these results for Conquests?

I have made a few tests to see if the bug was fixed. Everything seems to be the same. I am thinking of make a more complete test, but somehow it is harder to find time now. It was much easier when I was unemployed.

It seems the AI gets 1 WWP per turn if it has units in your territory, which also means your WWP will not decrease during those turns.

Correct

I'm being stupid,

Dont worry, your not the only one:)

but are you saying that if I attack an AI unit and kill it that the AI gets the wwp (2 in it's territory or 1 in mine), or we both do?

If you attack and kill an AI, none gets wwp. If the AI wins, both get wwp. The AI's wwp will follow yours, except for penalties for staying in enemies territory, and when your wwp decrease.

It does not mather where the battle are. I claimed so earlier, but that turned out to be wrong.

I have changed the original text. Hopefully it is easier to understand now.

From my experiences the the same rules apply to the ai as well. I had a war initiated by my neigbors, the netherlands. They declared war. Everyone was in demo. I bought several other to join on my side, namely first the russians, our common neighbor.
The netherlands never switched from democracy, even when losing city after city. I assume every war declaration gave them the -30 points, witch outweightes the points for losing cities and units.
The russians on the other side switched quite fast to faschism. They declared war and suffered heavy causalitities from the beginning.
So i would assume war weariness does count for the ai, at least certain aspects.

War weariness counts for the AI, but it works irrationally.

I have never seen anyone getting -30wwp when other civs are brought into war with MA or MPP.

I guess netherlands are last in playing order. Because the bug, they will not suffer for losing cities/units.

I have made 2 test to support my bug claim. See
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70172

Thanks Oystein, that clears it up, even if it is very disappointing news. :)

2 questions...

1) Is it possible to see the current wwp anywhere in the game? Do I need an editor to see?

2) Does having my bombers shot down by flak count as wwp against me?

Originally posted by Oystein
Republic:
Level 1: 25% unhappy people
Level 2: 50% unhappy people
Level 3: 50% unhappy people
Level 4: 100% unhappy people

Democracy:
Level 1: 50% unhappy people
Level 2: 100% unhappy people
Level 3: Revolt


What does this actually mean in real terms?

The number of happy/content/unhappy people is a calculated number depending upon your difficulty level and adjusted by factors such as luxuries connected, happiness buildings/wonders and commerce redirected to luxuries.

So at level 1 where 25% of people are unhappy.....does this mean that 25% of your total population goes from content to unhappy, or from happy to unhappy? And is it irrespective of any other happiness influences? For example, you have a size 11 city with 6 happy, 2 content and 3 unhappy citizens (after the effect of some happiness buildings, luxuries, etc). Once you get to level 1, does this mean that your unhappy citizens increases by 25% x 11 = 2.75, rounded down to 2?.....meaning your 2 content citizens now become unhappy? Any change to the 6 happy citizens?

Originally posted by thriller


What does this actually mean in real terms?

The number of happy/content/unhappy people is a calculated number depending upon your difficulty level and adjusted by factors such as luxuries connected, happiness buildings/wonders and commerce redirected to luxuries.

So at level 1 where 25% of people are unhappy.....does this mean that 25% of your total population goes from content to unhappy, or from happy to unhappy? And is it irrespective of any other happiness influences? For example, you have a size 11 city with 6 happy, 2 content and 3 unhappy citizens (after the effect of some happiness buildings, luxuries, etc). Once you get to level 1, does this mean that your unhappy citizens increases by 25% x 11 = 2.75, rounded down to 2?.....meaning your 2 content citizens now become unhappy? Any change to the 6 happy citizens?
Think of unhappiness and happiness as points: unhappiness points (up) and happiness points (hp). Each city has several causes that modifies those two numbers, and the final up and hp numbers after all modifications are displayed as happy or unhappy people.

First, all up are counted. It starts with one up for each citizen above the number born happy (9 in your size 11 city if playing on regent. Assume that you have improvements/wonders that make totally 6 unhappy->content and 6 luxuries. The improvements will reduce the up from 9 to 3. The luxuries will then increase th hp from zero to 6, for a total of 6 hp and 3 up, giving 6 happy, 3 unhappy and the rest (2) content.

Now, if the 25% WW kicks in, there will be 4 more up (25% of 11), thus your total up before content/happiness modification becomes 13 (more than your number of citizens). If you only had one temple in the city, all citizens would still be unhappy, since the temple would reduce the up from 13 to 12, still more than the number of citizens.
But with 6 unhappy-content improvements you'll get the up reduced from 13 to 7. The first 4 luxuries will increase the hp from zero to 4, leaving 4 hp and 7 up.
Now the number of hp + up is equal to the number of citizens, and therefore the next luxury point cannot just increase hp by one, but will instead be treated as a content->happiness point which reduces the up by one (to 6), and the last luxury point can then increase the hp by one (to 5).

The city will therefore end up with 5 happy and 6 unhappy people, giving unrest in your city.

A simpler way of calculating the additonal WW effect is to start with your 6 happy, 2 content and 3 unhappy, and then for each of the 4 new up, make one content unhappy - if there are no content, make one happy content.

YoungEagle:
The only place I know of where you can read the wwp is in the savefile...

Bombers shot down by flaks does not add to wwp

TheNiceOne:
Nice discription of how to calculate happy people, but there is one mistake. The number from ww is rounded down. With 11 citizen, only 2 will become unhappy assuming 25% ww. (I really dont know how you get 25% of 11 to be 4)

Originally posted by Oystein
TheNiceOne:
Nice discription of how to calculate happy people, but there is one mistake. The number from ww is rounded down. With 11 citizen, only 2 will become unhappy assuming 25% ww. (I really dont know how you get 25% of 11 to be 4)
I really don't know either. :crazyeye: I guess it was to late on a friday for me ... except that I wrote it on thursday... Oh well, it was a busy week :p

Ok, thanks for the explanation.

So, the improvements such as temple, cathedral, wonders, etc, make unhappy people content, whereas luxuries make content people happy?

Also, with a marketplace the number of content --> happy would multiply depending on the number of luxuries, correct?

Now, use of the luxury slider is the same as luxuries? ie, happy --> content?

"Number of unhappy people is round down. The number from each civ is added together and subtract 25% for police station and 1 for US (Universal Sufferage). The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen."

So this means that as a republic Without Police or US, at war with two powers (just leaving troops in both territories no other causes of war weariness)
Instead of 25% at 15 turns, (30 total wwp)
I'll have 0% until 30 turns (because none have reached level 1 yet)
then
I'll jump straight to 50% at 30 turns
..and 100% at 60 (50+50)

(and also that US is basically worthless..)

Correct.

(Well except that you need 31 wwp to get ww. 30 wwp gives no effect.)

General:
War weariness is tracked for each civ indepentently.


This sentence always confuses me.

Does it mean "every civ has one wwp for all other civs", or "every civ has one wwp for every other civs"?

Simply put, if I am in war with two AIs, how many wwp the system tracks for _me_?

This leads to a rather confusing situation.

We know ww is gone after 20 turns, but say if I make peace with A at turn X (with ww1), and make peace with B at turn X+10 (with ww2), and I declare on A again at turn X+20, what would be my current WW?

Originally posted by YoungEagle
2 questions...

1) Is it possible to see the current wwp anywhere in the game? Do I need an editor to see?

2) Does having my bombers shot down by flak count as wwp against me?
1. U can see using multitool.
2. Here an example, rome (me), and Celts (AI).
One thing I observed, according to multitools here, the highest WW is 999. After that it resets to 0 (and most likely, u got Love King Day).

Regarding AI-AI. Again based on Multitools (I opened a conquest sav file) between 2 Lock MPP fighting (refused contact starts with 999999, so if u played more turn than that, it would be peace :D )

Originally posted by microbe
Does it mean "every civ has one wwp for all other civs", or "every civ has one wwp for every other civs"?

Simply put, if I am in war with two AIs, how many wwp the system tracks for _me_?
To calculate _your_ ww, the system stores one number for each of the other civs.

We know ww is gone after 20 turns, but say if I make peace with A at turn X (with ww1), and make peace with B at turn X+10 (with ww2), and I declare on A again at turn X+20, what would be my current WW? What has happened between you and B does not mather as long as you are in peace with B. So you only has to worry about A. But 20 turns of peace does NOT mean that ww is gone. If the war against A was really bloody, you will experience ww at once. I have added a list of how the wwp is reduced in peace in my first post.

Originally posted by Oystein
But 20 turns of peace does NOT mean that ww is gone. If the war against A was really bloody, you will experience ww at once.[/B]

Thanks for the clarification! I guess I got the wrong impression then. I'll read your post once more.

How does "revolt" work? For a democracy consumed with war weariness.

How does "revolt" work? For a democracy consumed with war weariness.

Your civ descends into Anarchy, just like if you had clicked the Revolt button in the city advisor screen. After the period of anarchy is over, you can choose a new government.

Where can I get the multitool to see the WW points?

Your civ descends into Anarchy, just like if you had clicked the Revolt button in the city advisor screen. After the period of anarchy is over, you can choose a new government.

So if a rival civ is a Democracy and we're relatively evenly balanced, how can I cheaply drive up their WW? Will a phoney war (say if we're on opposite sides of the globe) do it, or do I have to invade?

Raze some cities.
A phoney war doesn't add ww points. In fact, a phoney war is a good method to benefit from war happiness. That is, if the other civ is an arch enemy of your civ (e.g. in your 'opposite side' scenario, imagine a denied tribute demanding which led to the war).
Or the other way round: if you're regarded as arch enemy, the other civs' citizen get happy. In this case, the other civ will benefit from a phoney war and you can wait forever for their anarchy.

Raze some cities.
A phoney war doesn't add ww points. In fact, a phoney war is a good method to benefit from war happiness. That is, if the other civ is an arch enemy of your civ (e.g. in your 'opposite side' scenario, imagine a denied tribute demanding which led to the war).
Or the other way round: if you're regarded as arch enemy, the other civs' citizen get happy. In this case, the other civ will benefit from a phoney war and you can wait forever for their anarchy.

Umm well yes good to know. Thanks.

Questions about War Weariness in MP games. In human human war

1. Do ships in opponents terroritory count for adding War Weariness?

2. If I have a unit in my opponents terroritory, does my War Weariness increase by 1 and his stay the same?

3.. Does each attack I launch against my opponent increase his war weariness by 2 and each unit I lose increase my WW by 2?

thanks

As far as I've seen, war wearines does not seem to exist in multi-player games. The reason for this is that in PvP wars both players would have the maximum level of war weariness because they would typically never make peace. (I disagree with this change in rules compared to the standard rules. If people want to make war, then they must face the consequences. Sadly, I can't change it with the editor.)

I have a few questions about WW...

- If I declare war on a civ and make peace with them a few turns later, their WH will disappear. But if we go to war again in the future, do they get back their WH ? ie. do they keep their WH points (without any effect) during the peace period ? It seems that WH is kept if it's a phoney war, so WH doesn't decrease through time, but is it really lost when you make peace?

- If during the 1st war I get a lot of destruction but stay in Despotism, I don't get any WW. But are WW points virtually added ? If I then make peace and revolt to Republic, will I suddenly face WW when war breaks out again ?

- In the 2nd war, if the other civ declares this time, do I also get WH ? Is this independent from the WH/WW of the other civ, related to mine ?

- It seems that WW isn't working in PBEM in C3C, do you agree ? I once faced massive destruction by a human until he captured my last city. I was in Republic and never suffered from WW. How come ? In the 3 first points, the other civ is in fact a human player, does it change anything ?

If during the 1st war I get a lot of destruction but stay in Despotism, I don't get any WW. But are WW points virtually added ? If I then make peace and revolt to Republic, will I suddenly face WW when war breaks out again ?
This one I know for sure. Yes, you will (assuming you still have enough WW left after the peace).

- If I declare war on a civ and make peace with them a few turns later, their WH will disappear. But if we go to war again in the future, do they get back their WH ? ie. do they keep their WH points (without any effect) during the peace period ? It seems that WH is kept if it's a phoney war, so WH doesn't decrease through time, but is it really lost when you make peace?You will get back the WH. WH is the effect of having negativ wwp in wartime. Signing peace will not effect wwp. If you have positiv wwp it will decrease during peace. But there are no change if you have negativ wwp. So, if you have WH and the enemy are approching, you might want to sign peace to save the WH for later.

- If during the 1st war I get a lot of destruction but stay in Despotism, I don't get any WW. But are WW points virtually added ? If I then make peace and revolt to Republic, will I suddenly face WW when war breaks out again ?The calculation of wwp is independant of government. Its only the effect (WW/WH) that depends on government.

- In the 2nd war, if the other civ declares this time, do I also get WH ? Is this independent from the WH/WW of the other civ, related to mine ?The effect of the 2nd war is independent of the 1st. With one exception, you cant have more than 100% (un)happy people from WW/WH.

- It seems that WW isn't working in PBEM in C3C, do you agree ? I once faced massive destruction by a human until he captured my last city. I was in Republic and never suffered from WW. How come ? In the 3 first points, the other civ is in fact a human player, does it change anything ?I have never tried PBEM. The WW seems to work correct for humans in hotseat game. But there are a terrible bug for the AI, maybe the bug is also affecting humans in PBEM.

Okay, thank you, man ! :)

From what I understand, there is a kind of trick, or should I say "exploit" ? there. Send a few units to your PBEM foe very early in the game, threaten him with them, and so have him declare war on you : you get war happiness for a small cost. Up to you to keep war between both humans, since you can't be responsible for a possible phoney war.

A very powerful trick, all the more when you play a game with a few units already in place. Very small cost -> great effect = exploit in my eyes, because it harms both gameplay and historical accuracy. The war weariness / happiness system isn't very good. Here's hoping another change in Civ4. ;)

Exploit in your eyes, but not in the eyes of many. WW / WH is a good part of gameplay imo. :)

Yeah, but this doesn't contradict my opinion. ;) The consequences aren't in the proportion of the causes at all. This calls for cheap actions.

One way to fix this would be to put war happiness points back to zero when you sign peace (instead of virtually keeping them for later). Or maybe have war happiness points slowly decreasing through time, just like war weariness, so that it's forgotten after a while. The way it is now is just too powerful, and don't be mistaken : I already noticed it, but this time in my favour, in another PBEM of mine. Just for the sake of my integrity.

I'll soon make a proposition to get rid of this nonsense feature. ;)

Actually I think WW/WH is a good feature - this is what I was trying to say. :)

I'm not saying the opposite. Just that it needs reworking IMHO. :) That is what I was trying to say.

We could also start spamming this place, it needs spamming. :king:

Hmmm, do you think war happiness is a good thing to have ? :lol:

Okay, thank you, man ! :)

From what I understand, there is a kind of trick, or should I say "exploit" ? there. Send a few units to your PBEM foe very early in the game, threaten him with them, and so have him declare war on you : you get war happiness for a small cost. Up to you to keep war between both humans, since you can't be responsible for a possible phoney war.

A very powerful trick, all the more when you play a game with a few units already in place. Very small cost -> great effect = exploit in my eyes, because it harms both gameplay and historical accuracy. The war weariness / happiness system isn't very good. Here's hoping another change in Civ4. ;)
:hmm:
"let them attack" is the prob in this plan...;)

I think there's pros and cons here. If you bring only a few units, your rival might not feel threatened, so avoiding sort of a pre-emptive strike vs your invaders. The rival could possibly just block them or move defenders around, thus protecting potentially threatened targets. Although, if that approach happened very early in the game, you could likely disturb a farmer's gambit by your presence alone, of course (rival switches to unit construction etc - mess up rival's plans in general). I think that's why you would visit your rival in the first place, but getting wh cheaply would be an optional secondary effect at the most.

And if you bring a really threatening stack (in relative terms, that is), you could just attack and your rival's wh bonus isn't worth it compared to the havoc you cause (the wh bonus might be eaten up in no time anyways).


Hmmm, do you think war happiness is a good thing to have ? :lol:

Definately! :D

The point is there : if you come up with a few units and your rival doesn't have much to counter (just enough to not lose cities, for example), then he can't be scared to death, but could find your stack annoying. Your units would be able to do some pillage and stuff, breaking the sensible micro-management that he had put in place. For a negligeable cost, and, in the case of a mod where you start with a few military units, zero cost. :eek: Because of course your rival wouldn't be able to counter-attack in time, since borders aren't expanded enough, and so you could enter territory and attack/pillage on the same turn. The counter-point is that the rival could make a pre-emptive attack on you and you'd get some war happiness for compensation. Fine. Fair enough. Except this : this war happiness is awfully, awfully (in my view) huge compared to what it should be for a compensation. Some players rely on this trick like if they had found the Graal for the rest of the game. Not to mention that it tempts players to repeat it again and again, just like the uber-powerful Republic slingshot.

For your information, I was the one under pressure this time. ;) My rival (you know who you are ;) ) came with a horseman we had from the start. There was no way to prevent pillaging on the 1st turn. The result being that, to prevent pillaging (quite annoying but bearable), I had to give him war happiness for a very long time. When you know that I was in full investment mode (economics), pillaging wasn't a fine option. I would have got war happiness of course, but maybe the pillaging would have been extended due to hard luck... or maybe I would have lost a city.

A question about:
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Retreat = Defeat?

Universal Suffrage makes 1 unhappy citizens content in all cities
You mean 1 citizen who would otherwise be suffering from WW? Can anyones confirm or deny that universal suffrage is such a pathetic wonder as that?

Unless I'm misreading the article, that would be correct.

Do you get war weariness when you lose a captured city on a flip? I'll guess no, since you can lost cities on cultural flips while at peace.

Do you get war weariness when you lose a captured city on a flip? I'll guess no, since you can lost cities on cultural flips while at peace.

I am sure that it couses no war weariness, as it is not due to war, but culture, as you already mentioned.

No WW from flipped cities. I checked for it just a few days ago with an old game.

Thats not my experience. If I'm at war with someone and lose a city by flip to that enemy, my WW seems to get much worse. Which is why I tend to get raze-happy with a powerful enemy. I may be wrong, but my experience is that a flip is almost as bad as a military capture.

Thanks guys. That makes me a lot more comfortable with keeping captured cities at high levels. I can just take anything back that flips. I wish I had realized that before Elear and myself's histo. game and the Maya Huge game, which I might go back and find a different game now.

Thats not my experience. If I'm at war with someone and lose a city by flip to that enemy, my WW seems to get much worse. Which is why I tend to get raze-happy with a powerful enemy. I may be wrong, but my experience is that a flip is almost as bad as a military capture.

I have checked it with an old game of mine. The situation was that I was close to destroying the Egyptians, but had no WW yet. So, in one test run I simply let time pass while avoiding anything that is known or probable to cause WW, in the hope that some cities flip back. Five turn later or so two cities have flipped back, but still no WW at all. In the next test run, I allowed the Egyptians to capture back one of their cities. On top of the recapture there was on flip back during the interturn. But anyway, the WW was there immediately.

So, on hand hand there was 2 flips plus some retreats (I couldn't avoid any kind of action) which did not get me to WW, while on the other hand a recapture and a flip did immediately.

I believe you, but it seems to go against my intuition. I've had wars where culture flips seem to have influenced WW, but that could be cognitive bias. Maybe other WW factors hit hard at the same time and the flips got the blame. I'll keep an eye out for future instances and research the mechanics of it.

Say I'm at war with the Mongols, and they sign an alliance with the Chinese; no WH from China.
If I make peace with the Chinese and goad them into re-declaring war on me, can I get WH then?

Say I'm at war with the Mongols, and they sign an alliance with the Chinese; no WH from China.
If I make peace with the Chinese and goad them into re-declaring war on me, can I get WH then?

I don't see any reason why not. Ok, the exception may be that there somehow are plenty WW points stored up.

Hello -

WWP do NOT work against humans in Civ3 PTW 1.21f.

No effect what so ever. I am playing a multiplayer game with AIs and the only WWP I have, I recieved from war with AIs. Once the war is over, because I destroyed the enemy, everybody is happy.
My friend is in a democracy and has only war against me, lost many towns, units, is staying in my territory, losing infrastructurs, continuesly without any pause for 2000 years, has in my count over 220 WWP already, but my strategy is not working. He has 100% happy faces all over the board. Has nothing to do with luxury, temple etc. There is not reason to use republic against another human. This WWP strategy is NOT working against humans.

I have seen the term "arch enemy" a couple of times in this article, but no explanation of what it actually means. (I assume it refers to the first nation that declared war on you?!)
Can you explain, what influence this concept has on war weariness/war happiness?

Lanzelot

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war.

Does this mean 1 wwp per unit in enemy territory, or does it mean 1 wwp overall, even if you say have 20 units parked in enemy territory?

Does this mean 1 wwp per unit in enemy territory, or does it mean 1 wwp overall, even if you say have 20 units parked in enemy territory?

Overall.