View Full Version : Debunking the Kamikaze Myth


Oda Nobunaga
Aug 21, 2003, 04:13 PM
Well, a very quick article sparked by some assessment I fell upon that more or less "praised" the japanesse for the kamikaze and suggestiong that it should be Japan's UU in civilization III (or one of them).

Debunking the Kamikaze myth, second version.

On october, 25, 1944, off Leyte, the USS St. Lo had the disagreeable surprise of seeing a japanesse plane crashing on its deck. Though they did not know it at the time, this was the first of the kamikaze attack - the divine wind.

The Kami-Kaze, as is often known, draw their roots deep in Japanesse history. In the thirteenth century, the mongol, having completed their conquest of Asia, turned their eyes to the island of Japan. Twice, they sent great fleets - and twice the storm came down upon their fleet. Obviously, the gods must have risen to defend Japan with their wind - hence the name divine wind, Kamikaze (a as in ah, i as in military, e as the ay in hay) from kami, a "divine" spirit and kaze, wind)

In the later years of the second world war, when it became obvious the US Navy would soon submerge the Japanese home islands, some officers there came up with a desperate defensive plans : human missiles, plans loaded with explosives and sent to ram the american vessels. Some missiles were even specifically designed for this : the Ohka flying bombs. However, despite their explosive capacity being very potent, they were never much given a chance against a truly valuable enemy warship.

To any extent, the mechanical divine wind did rise. But, where the impact of these attacks really as great as some would believe in the western world? They certainly did damage, but where the kamikaze attack as devastatingly damaging as some would like to think?

Here are some facts to muse about.

Sinkings

According to the records available from the Naval War College (with some additional information from other sources), the total number of warships (including transports) lost by kamikaze attacks is 26 (other sources have higher number ; it may be that the data of the NWC online is slightly faulty and/or records certain kamikaze attacks under broader categories). Now, this may sounds impressive - until one consider how many ships the same navy record as lost during the second world war (from war damage solely) : 350. Kamikaze accounted for a mere 7% of ship lost to war damage. In addition to these losses, the US navy lost, over the course of World War II, 45 ships to accidents and storms : mother nature and simple blind luck did more damage to the navy than all the kamikaze Japan could throw at it - and certainly at less cost.

Of course, one must note that of the US's four years of war, the Kamikaze were only effective during about one, and during that time they accounted for a fair amount of vessels. But the point of the above is simply to demonstrate that 26 vessels (or even 34), while it may seems like an enormous amount of ships lost, is dwarfed by the actual amounts of vessels lost in the Second World War, which is simply staggering.

In addition to not accounting for much (relatively) in terms of number of ships, the kamikaze also failed to sink valuable warships. Oh, they took out a few escort carriers - but escort carriers, in and out of themselves, are not very valuable ships, simple conversions of merchant hulls to carry a handful (20-odd usually) of planes. The more precious light carriers (50-60 planes) and fleet carriers (80+ planes) lost none of their number to the desperate "divine winds".

The breakdown of ships listed as sunk by Kamikaze by the naval war college is as follow :

Escort Carriers : 3
Destroyers : 14
Fast Transports (converted destroyers) : 3
Landing Ship, Medium : 1
Landing Ship, Tanks : 1
High-Speed Minesweepers : 3
Minesweepers : 1

As you can see, out of 26 ship destroyed as a result of kamikaze attack, only a mere 3 were above destroyer size. Even the combined displacement of the three carrier sunk is pathetically unimpressive : 32 946 tns. To establish a bottom line comparison, 33 000 tons is more or less *about* half the displacement of a single Yamato-class battleship (63 000 tns).

Carriers : 32 946 tns
Destroyers : +/- 29 500 tns.
Fast Transports : 3 570 tns.
LSM : 900 tns.
LST : 2 100 tns.
High-Speed Minesweepers : 5 100 tns
Minesweeper : 1 100 tns.

Total displacement sunk by the Kamikaze throughout the second world war according to the naval war college : 75 216 tns.

To establish a simple comparison, the "opening shots" of the naval wars (atlantic and pacific) saw 421 000 tons of allied merchantmen in four months (Atlantic) and 89 154 tons worth of warship sunk durign the sole Pearl Harbor attack

That said, as many have pointed out to me after the first version of this article went up, there are more ways to win a war (or slow down an enemy) than sinking the enemy's ship.

Damages

After all, one can remove a warship from the war without sinking it. You just have to damage it enough to return it home. And indeed, the Kamikaze did force a few of the larger vessels home for repair.

The images we've all seen of American carriers left wounded with gaping holes are famous. More than a few such carrier were sorely wounded, leaving many with the impression that the Kamikaze were a terribly devastating weapon of great power.

But, as it happens, that is not quite the case. The Kamikaze's success against American carriers owe more to a pair of fact that are less than often mentioned than to any particular potency of the weapon type :

1-The flight decks of American carriers were unarmored, which in certain cases made quite a difference : warship with heavier armor were able to glance off blows that would put quite a dent in the American carriers. HOWEVER, one must note that the American design had at least one advantage over the heavily armord design, namely that while they could easily be put out of commission by kamikaze, once out of commission they were also fairly easy to put back in commission, whereas british carriers with stronger flight deck armor took structural damage as a result of the blows that would eventually warp their structure slowly and eventually render them useless in far quicker terms than it would render ships like the American Essex useless.

2-A direct correlation to this is that airplanes, their fuel and their bombs were not protected by armor, making any blow that much more devastating in appearance (and at times in effect).

Another correlation to observe with damage is that fairly constantly far more horrendous damage was achieved on ship by conventional mean than by Kamikaze attack.

For example, let us consider the USS Franklin, badly damaged during the early kamikaze campaign by such an attack.

After being so damaged, it was able to sail back to the West Coast by itself to receive repair. It was repaired in the space of about two months, and went back to war.

On March 19, the luckless Franklin was struck again. A single non-kamikaze plane dropped two bomb on it. The two bombs (armor-piercing ones) tore right through the ship, ravaging it and leaving it dead in the water within fifty miles of the Japanesse coast, listing, and with seven hundred dead (twice the losses of life from the most devastating kamikaze attack on a carrier, that on the Bunker Hill on May 11 the same year). As a result, Franklin had to be towed back until she could affect sufficient repair to make Pearl Harbor on her own. From there, she had to return to New York for repair, and everything above the hangar deck had to be replaced, with the exception of the hangar and some small portion of the forward flight deck.

And again, this is an example of the damage two bombs accomplished.

Certainly, kamikaze were able to affect some damage to capital ship. But was that damage anything impressive? One has his doubt when one look at the simple comparison of how easily battleships shrugged off blows from the kamikaze compared to how badly they had been damaged at previous occasions (the USS Maryland, West Virginia, California, Pennsylvania and Nevada all took blows from kamikaze and resumed operation shortly after – whereas the same five battleship had been extensively damaged by regular air attack during the attack on Pearl Harbor. Of course, they were essentially sitting duck at Pearl Harbor, but the demonstration here is that, in both the case of the Franklin and the five battleships, the damage of a kamikaze attack simply does not compare to that of more conventional weaponry.

That said, Japan did not have much other choices by that time of the war. They were still able to use more conventional weapon, but simply put, they lacked the sufficiently trained pilot. And it is, in fact, far easier to train a pilot to fly his plane in an enemy ship than it would be to train the same pilot to launch an effective dive-bombing attack. In addition, it is far harder for enemy fighters to intercept such a plane. Kamikaze attack, though not extremely damaging, were simply far easier to successfully make.

However, the scope of this article is not to debate wheter or not Japan would have done better to use a different strategy in the last, desperate days of the war. It was to set the facts straight regarding the actual scope and effect of the kamikaze campaign, which many seems to believe a fitting representation of Japan's military operations.

Kamikaze were a desperate, last-ditch line of defense that was used because Japan did not have the ressources (oil, etc) to actually train pilot sufficently as to hope for them to deliver damage to the enemy fleet and return. It was not a very effective strategy in terms of damage inflicted in relation to the cost (2550 kamikaze attacks were made, according to the strategic bomber air command, successfully ensuring the destruction of about 30 relatively small vessels, and putting out of commission for sizeable period of time 10 major ones – light and fleet carriers and battleships).

Thus, Kamikaze are more akin to a desperate decision of arming peasant with bamboo spear in a desperate last ditch defense against rifles-armed invaders (in fact, the Japanese high command did plan the bamboo spears, too – but fortunately the nukes and end of war arrived before they could implement that particular horror) than to any strategy representative of Japanese combat throughout the war.

Below : USS Ommaney Bay burning after a Kamikaze attack.

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 21, 2003, 04:19 PM
Sources

Jane's War at sea 1897-1997 (Book)

Naval War College US Navy Ship 20th Century historical database. (http://www.nwc.navy.mil/usnhdb/)

Naval Technical Board, "Battleships Carriers and all other warships" (http://www.warships1.com/index_tech/)

Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships Online (http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/)

Note : some sources have somewhat different lists of ships lost to kamikaze attack, including additional "kamikaze attack losses" listed. However, due to some serious contradictions, I elected to use only the NWC source in case of conflicts.

Attached : CVE USS Bismarck Sea exploding after a Kamikaze hit.

Sims2789
Aug 21, 2003, 11:12 PM
...45 ships to accidents and storms : mother nature and simple blind luck...
storms, also known as "divine winds"

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 22, 2003, 12:33 AM
Yes, indeed. That little gem didn't escape me.

The fact that the divine wind actually did try to play their part (IIRC, the USN lost 9 ships, including 4 destroyers, to storms in 41-45 (Some of those immediately after the war, though).

The vast majority of the 45 listed above were lost to accidents though - running aground, a few LSTs in a munition explosion at Pearl, etc.

rilnator
Aug 22, 2003, 01:40 AM
The image kamikazis have is because they are frightening. These Japanese pilots climbed into their machines intent on dying. Unlike a conventional pilot they didn't have to line up their target and go to the trouble of aiming. They just crashed the plane into the enemy. Therefore you'd think they'd be a lot harder to stop. I spose it was kind of like facing the SS in Europe, apart from being well trained and equipt they were also fanatics and like the Japs didn't give a f***.
I read somewhere that they also used to crash themselves into enemy bombers over Japan. Is that true? and what kind of results did they get?
The term "jap" is not merely short form, it has a history of being used to demean and insult. Please do not uses it or the vulgaur term shortly after it at CFC. Lefty

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 22, 2003, 02:15 AM
I don't know about the second question. As for the first, I'd honestly have been more frightened at Midway in 42, sailing Japanesse Subs-infested water in 42-43 or even worse yet, staffing a destroyer set on a guard duty off Guadalcanal in late 42.

pawpaw
Aug 22, 2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by rilnator
the Japs didn't give a f***.

thats japanese--lets be nice:)

Serutan
Aug 22, 2003, 09:26 AM
I also read in the book "Japans War" that the whole thing where the pilots were all volunteers was a myth, too. It was actually a scheme cooked up by naval command.

kittenOFchaos
Aug 22, 2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by rilnator
The image kamikazis have is because they are frightening. These Japanese pilots climbed into their machines intent on dying. Unlike a conventional pilot they didn't have to line up their target and go to the trouble of aiming. They just crashed the plane into the enemy. Therefore you'd think they'd be a lot harder to stop. I spose it was kind of like facing the SS in Europe, apart from being well trained and equipt they were also fanatics and like the Japs didn't give a f***.
I read somewhere that they also used to crash themselves into enemy bombers over Japan. Is that true? and what kind of results did they get?

I'm pretty certain an RAF pilot used his plane to ram a German bomber during WW2...let me see!


AH! From the "BBC - WW2 People's War"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A1103842

A small engraved stone set in the churchyard wall at Windrush commemorates a trainee RAF pilot, from nearby RAF Little Rissington, who sacrificed his life by ramming his unarmed trainer into a German bomber.

pawpaw
Aug 22, 2003, 11:23 AM
soviet planes rammed german fighters all the time:)

wildWolverine
Aug 22, 2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
In addition to not accounting for much in terms of number of ships, the kamikaze also failed to account for valuable warships. Oh, they took out a few escort carriers - but escort carriers, in and out of themselves, are not very valuable ships, simple conversions of merchant hulls to carry a handful (20-odd usually) of planes. The more precious light carriers (50-60 planes) and fleet carriers (80+ planes) lost none of their number to the desperate "divine winds".

The breakdown of ships listed as struck by Kamikaze by the naval war college is as follow :

Escort Carriers : 3
Destroyers : 14
Fast Transports (converted destroyers) : 3
Landing Ship, Medium : 1
Landing Ship, Tanks : 1
High-Speed Minesweepers : 3
Minesweepers : 1

As you can see, out of 26 ship destroyed as a result of kamikaze attack, only a mere 3 were above destroyer size.

Sinking a ship isn't the only way to destroy it... Perhaps you should consider the USS Franklin, CV-13.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/kamikaze.jpg

The Franklin was hit right in the middle of the flight deck, and had to return stateside for repairs...

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 22, 2003, 03:03 PM
True.

However, to consider ship damaged sufficiently to return to a large base (Pearl or the States pretty much) for repair would be far too arduous a task, requiring one to comb one by one the history of the american ships which served in the second World War (since, for effective comparison, one would have to consider all ships put out of comission in this or that way). Thus my analysis focused solely on ship sunk.

After all, the kamikaze weren't the only ones to send carriers home for extensive repair ; off the top of my head the IJ air force did it to Yorktown at the Coral Sea ; submarines did it twice to the lone Saratoga in 42, etc.

And then, of course, there is the "slight" fact that if one consider ships in need of extremely extensive repair, the IJN air force nets an extra six battleship to its scoreboard at Pearl Harbor...

Hitro
Aug 22, 2003, 03:24 PM
What also has to be taken into account is the number of Kamikazes started. You can't make comparisons simply by destruction of enemy ships.
Though your basic point is what I came to as well after reading and watching about it.
One of the basic problems was that the pilots were very badly trained and often missed their targets and crashed into the sea because of that. Also many crashed long before seeing an enemy ship.

The Kamikazes, like the V2, couldn't change a war that was long lost, but that doesn't render both of them completely inefficient in general.

wildWolverine
Aug 22, 2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
True.

However, to consider ship damaged sufficiently to return to a large base (Pearl or the States pretty much) for repair would be far too arduous a task, requiring one to comb one by one the history of the american ships which served in the second World War (since, for effective comparison, one would have to consider all ships put out of comission in this or that way). Thus my analysis focused solely on ship sunk.

After all, the kamikaze weren't the only ones to send carriers home for extensive repair ; off the top of my head the IJ air force did it to Yorktown at the Coral Sea ; submarines did it twice to the lone Saratoga in 42, etc.

And then, of course, there is the "slight" fact that if one consider ships in need of extremely extensive repair, the IJN air force nets an extra six battleship to its scoreboard at Pearl Harbor...

Yes, but the Franklin was severely damaged by a Kamikaze plane. In an analysis of the Kamikaze attacks, you can't just state that the "heavies" weren't affected -- this case disproves that point.

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 22, 2003, 04:40 PM
I never stated that. Apparently you misread my post, but to avoid this in the future I have corrected two passages that could be mistaken.

"Failed to account for valuable..." changed to "Failed to sink valuable"...

and the typo "ships recorded as STRUCK" to "Ships recorded as sunk"

I knew full well about the Franklin ahead of writing this, and I wrote my article in the specific scope of adressing ships that were *sunk* (as demonstrated by my constantly refering to sinking) because hunting down the records for ships that were damaged (and how) for comparison purpose is beyond what I have the time to do.

I never once stated that the heavies weren't affected ; you drew that inference where there was none. I stated that they were not sunk.

wildWolverine
Aug 23, 2003, 10:50 AM
Actually, I drew that inference from the statement "Failed to account for valuable..." I appreciate the change. ;) However, I still think that your entire argument is flawed. It seems to me that you are saying that the Kamikaze planes weren't that effective. I must respectfully disagree. While they didn't alter the outcome of the war (like someone above said, they were a last ditch burst of frustration, like the V2 rockets), they did have a significant impact on the battles in which they were used. As I mentioned above, taking a fleet carrier out of action can be viewed as a significant event. Also, the presence/threat of kamikaze attacks force American commanders to change their tactics. Many more planes had to be devoted to CAP (combat air patrol) to increase the likelihood of intercepting the suicide attackers. This in turn meant that their were fewer planes available for tactical support, making ground fighting in such battles as Okinawa more difficult for the American marines.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted your article, and you indeed merely wished to point out that the actual number of ships sunk by kamikaze attacks is not, in fact that large. However, this is not the "myth" surrounding kamikaze attacks in the west. The knowledge/myth dealing w/ the kamikaze(s?) is that they:
A.) Crashed into Allied (mostly American) ships, big and small
B.) Were strategically useless and just prolonged the campaign, causing more unnecessary deaths when the situation was already hopeless. The dismantlement of Germany should have clued in Japanese leaders that a negotiated peace wasn't an option...

Both of these statements are true, even if the actual number of ships sunk was relatively small.

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 23, 2003, 01:38 PM
I disagree that they prolonged the campaign for any significant amount of time. The planes that were assigned to CAP duty were essentifally the F6F (and F4U), not the planes that would be most effective at bombardment (SBD, etc). In addition, Kamikaze meant needing an airstrip to take out from (since from Leyte onward Japan's carrier strength was essentially 0), so once the attacking US forces found the airstrip (always a primary target) the balance of power reversed on the island, and in nearly all cases that happened rather quickly.

And even taking down one or two big carriers could not impact the war effort to any extent. IIRC, the States had 20+ Essex-Class operating in the Pacific, plus some stray Independance CVL and of course the old Enterprise and Saratoga - losing one carrier out of that, even two on a temporary basis, wouldn't have impacted the war effort in any way.

That said, a difference should be made between ineffective, "too little, too late", and "imbecile commandment". The Kamikaze were the former. Even with two years more to wage a Kamikaze campaign, with the rate they were going at they wouldn't have damaged the US of A's ability to wage war much.

Comparatively, the V-class weapons were very effective weapons, but they were both too little, too late (V-2s), and suffered from Hitler's attempt at commanding every strategic move of the reich.

Kamikaze did not suffer from poor command : they were for the most part trying to get at the right targets.

Kamikaze might have been too little, too late, but there is no evidence to suggest that had the war lasted longer, the kamikaze would have been able to do anything very significant still. At the earlier battles where they could have gotten through to inflict damage to the americans, they would have been just as well served doing so with conventional weapons - as demonstrated by the losses of the Lexington, Yorktown and Hornet in the successive carrier battles of the early war.

On the other hand, during their operational time of close to a year, the Kamikaze failed to accomplish the goals that were set before them : namely, maim the US navy and slow their strategy down. And that, despite being given many months to do so (october 44 to august 45.

YNCS
Aug 23, 2003, 02:21 PM
One major problem the Japanese had towards the end of WW2 was the loss of trained pilots. At the beginning of the War, Japan probably had the best trained pilots (and other aircrew) of any of the major powers. However, by the end of the war they had lost the majority of their pilots and, for various reasons, had problems training new pilots. They really had no choice but to go with kamikazis.

pawpaw
Aug 23, 2003, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by YNCS
One major problem the Japanese had towards the end of WW2 was the loss of trained pilots. At the beginning of the War, Japan probably had the best trained pilots (and other aircrew) of any of the major powers. However, by the end of the war they had lost the majority of their pilots and, for various reasons, had problems training new pilots. They really had no choice but to go with kamikazis. [/QUOTE

remember reading somewhere that the average u.s. pilot had 600 hrs training in 1945 and the japanese like 60--no wonder they were getting shot down like flies

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 23, 2003, 02:42 PM
That they had no choice is not really the question. I agree on that score.

My point is that a desperate, last ditch effort that had little bearing on the war effort and that cost very little to the enemies.

And as such, it should not be seen as representative of Japan in World War II or Japan at large, as many people unfortunately tend to do (as can be seen in the C3C forum - just look at the Alternate UUs thread where people twice - in about 5-6 suggestions post - suggested the kamikaze as a japanesse unique unit for the main game). Just like if a nation runs out of ammo after fighting a damn solid war (which Japan did, considering the opposition) and end the war with soldiers fighting with pitchforks, their pitchfork-armed soldiers should not be taken to represent either their war effort in that war or the nation in general.

Yet, there are - many - people out there who see the kamikaze as the epitom of Japanesse fighting in World War II. Which it never was.

YNCS
Aug 23, 2003, 02:49 PM
"Duty is heavier than a mountain while death is lighter than a feather."
~Japanese proverb

SGI Butch
Aug 23, 2003, 07:00 PM
True Kamikazes had very little effect in general on the outcome of the war, but they did alow the Japs to use untrained civilians quickly teach them to fly and send them against us in operation ten-go when Japan had lost all of their trained pilots. This is also very significant to history because it marks the first time ever that humans would give their lives away for their country in massive numbers.

Richard III
Aug 23, 2003, 08:14 PM
Oda, I agree wholeheartedly with Wild Wolverine on this one, and couldn't help but scratch my head at your reasoning here.

First, if excluding damage to ships made your analysis too difficult to pull off, then you shouldn't have started in the first place. Kamikazes were not by their nature ship-killing weapons, like, say, a torpedo. The damage to ships was far out of proportion to ships sunk. Tactically, they did make several adjustments after Okinawa; the doctrine in the event of OLYMPIC or CORONET being launched would have seen concentrations of aircraft focus almost exclusively on transports and even beaches, seeking to slaughter vulnerable troops and avoid the well-defended BBs, CVs and picket AA destroyers which so many previous attackers had fixated upon and failed to destroy.

Secondly, Kamikaze attacks had an incredibly corrosive impact on morale, which is particularly important at the end of the war, given US impatience with Japanese intransigence. Several USN sources describe the effect on morale as crisis-like, comparable (as WW noted above, I believe) to the impact of buzz-bombs on the supposedly near-victorious British population.

Third, your conclusions based on the presented statistics are flawed, insofar as measuring Kamikaze effectiveness against the sinkings throughout the does not measure their relative effect properly. If they truly did account for 7% of ships lost to enemy action in the - what, twelve months? Fourteen? Eight? - that they were used in numbers, that is a spectacular result, given the high volume of shipping the USN lost in the period Dec. 1941-June 1943 to more conventional means.

That said, I agree that having them as a UU is both in poor taste and unrepresentative of Japan as a whole.

Richard III
Aug 23, 2003, 08:23 PM
Here's a "partial" list of destroyers sunk/dmgd at Okinawa; note that the damaged are as numerous (http://www.billykrsigsbee502.com/partial.html)


And here's a more detailed list of attacks: note how often CVs are hit - Mitscher even has to change flagships (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/LUTZ/okin.html)

...and on that link, note the bit at the bottom:

From Oct. 25, 1944 to Jan. 25, 1945 Japanese Kamikazes were able to sink 2 Escort Carriers, 3 Destroyers. They were also able to damage 23 Carriers, 5 Battleships, 9 Cruisers, 23 Destroyers and 27 other ships. There had also been 738 killed and another 1,300 wounded from the result of these attacks.

23 carriers - despite their thick AA! 5 BB's!

That would be enough to scare the bejesus out of me. :(

Richard III
Aug 23, 2003, 08:33 PM
A "nice" page with specific hits to CVs, CVL/Fleet and CVEs in the RN/USN (http://www.warships1.com/index_tech/tech-042.htm)

Again, note that several of these carriers were put out of action for weeks or months at a time, with fearsome casualties. Not a real morale booster...

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 23, 2003, 10:04 PM
Yes, American carriers took rather heavy damage. Two notes should be made here :

1-In MANY Cases, ships that were still able to perform operations were pulled back to repair damage - something the allies simply could afford at that point. One carrier more or less doesn't matter much when you have 20+ carriers operational.

2-American carrier were rather poorly armored on the flight deck side. This means it was relatively easy to heap damage on the flight deck.

Now, on to American carriers damage (according to your link). Let's be honest, pulling a carrier out of operation for less than two weeks is nothing. Damaging a carrier so that it's able to continue operation but is pulled back simply because the other side can afford to isn't brilliant either.

Thus, here is the list of "hits" that removed CVLs or CVs from action in a significant fashion (and not just because the US could chose to pull the carrier back despite it being still operational) :

USS Saratoga (once)
USS Enterprise (once)
USS Intrepid (twice)
USS Franklin (once)
USS Ticonderoga (once)
USS Randolph (once)
USS Bunker Hill (once)

USS Belleau Wood (once) (CVL)

So, their hunting bag for "big ship put out of action" tops at :

8CV
1CVL

IN addition, they scored 1 BB, the USS New Mexico (which had to be repaired, not Stateside nor even at Pearl, but merely at Leyte).

Where the US Navy had available in early 45 :

25CV (British ones not withstanding)
9CVL
22BBs

Even had all the seriously damaged carriers been damaged at once (and they weren't, of course), America would still have been able to maintain an easy 10-15 fleet carriers in operation in the pacific, plus an extra 4-5 from the Royal Navy, plus a good 6-7 CVLs, making for anywhere from 20 to nearly 40 carriers still operational - and again, that's crediting the kamikaze with taking out all the carriers they took out at once. Which, of course, didn't happen.

Finally, note that the most devastating japanesse attack on a carrier even in teh closing months of the war was *not* a kamikaze attack : it was a bombing run by a single bomber that dropped two bomb, leving the USS Franklin dead in the water.

Not to say that people should not have been worried about kamikaze attack. But simply put, kamikaze attack weren't all that impressively efficient considering the cost involved (2550-odd attack, 475 connected on US ships, sinking a total of 30-odd ships, and no big ones (no, CVEs do not count as "big" ships with their 10 000 tons or so displacement - that's smaller than quite a lot of heavy cruisers), and inflicting SERIOUS damage to about 10 large ships (ships being damaged repeatedly counted as often as they were actually damaged).

Considering a total of 2550 planes, that's not too good on a purely strategic level.

To any extent, I have extensively altered my original post to reflect the information you presented me about damage, in addition to other information I researched personally (namely on the battleships, carriers deck damage et al).

wildWolverine
Aug 25, 2003, 06:42 AM
For the record, almost every single carrier used in WW2 had wooden decks, or wooden decks covered by an inch of steel (not really enough to "strengthen" it against bomb attacks).

I'm not sure that I wouldn't call a near 20% success rate not "all that impressively efficient" when you factor in that most of these "pilots" had very little training, and the cost per kamikaze was pretty low.

pawpaw
Aug 25, 2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by wildWolverine
For the record, almost every single carrier used in WW2 had wooden decks, or wooden decks covered by an inch of steel (not really enough to "strengthen" it against bomb attacks).


not to argue with you w.w, but i've always read that the british carriers had armored flight decks?

wildWolverine
Aug 25, 2003, 12:18 PM
That could be indeed possible. I mostly study the pacific theatre when I'm in a naval mood... The only Brit. carrier I know anything about is the Ark Royal, and I thought it was wood as well, but I could easily be wrong. Weren't most British carriers converted cruisers?

pawpaw
Aug 25, 2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by wildWolverine
The only Brit. carrier I know anything about is the Ark Royal, and I thought it was wood as well, but I could easily be wrong. Weren't most British carriers converted cruisers?

desided to look it up, the illustrious class ( 4 ships ) had 3 inch steel belt across the flight deck and 4.5 inch belt around the flight hanger. they took beatings from german and italian planes in the med. but survived

wildWolverine
Aug 25, 2003, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the info -- good to know. However, due to the distinct lack of British carriers in the Pacific, I think my point pertaining to the Kamikaze remains valid...

pawpaw
Aug 25, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by wildWolverine
Thanks for the info -- good to know. However, due to the distinct lack of British carriers in the Pacific, I think my point pertaining to the Kamikaze remains valid...

actually there was a british task force with the u.s fleet in 1945, interesting to compare their loses and damage to the u.s. navy's:)

Richard III
Aug 25, 2003, 03:50 PM
Has been done, see some of the links above. They survived the Kamikaze attacks with considerably less damage.

R.II

Oda Nobunaga
Aug 25, 2003, 06:34 PM
One factor to note is that while they took considerably less damage that would render them unoperational immediately, but the way they were built caused them to be far more worn off quickly.

Comparatively, UK carriers were a lot harder to take out of operations, while US ones were far easier to take out. But on the other hand, UK carriers due to their structure eventually became unrepairable far swifter than US ones from the shock damage and warping of the metal structure. Thus, many of the UK carriers were found to not be worth the cost of putting back up to full capacity in the late 40s whereas the Essex went on serving for a while. On the other hand, for the duration of the war, the British, with fewer carriers, could ill afford to lose more than one or two at a time, so being able to keep them operational for a longer time was a definite plus. And it did work out at Okinawa.

Thus the paradox is, American carriers took such dreadful damage from kamikaze because they could afford to. With 25 fleet carriers out and about, the US had the means to afford pulling them off for two-three months of repair. And, with the way they were built, once repaired there would be little to no remaining structural damage to the rest of the ship. Even the USS Franklin, once rebuilt (from the double-bomb hit, not the kamikaze one) was kept in reserve for possible conversion or reactivation for a while - it was back in top shape.