http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Fiftha_Preview.gifhttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Fifthb_Preview.gifhttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Fifthc_Preview.gif

Well, Xen and I have been communicating with each other about this unit for the last week or so. Now, we need your input. We want to know which helmet is favored by the CivFanatics community. I personally find the original helmet--in the picture on the left--the the best look and also the most unique. However, Xen suggested posting a poll. So, here it is . . . make your voice heard today!

Also, feel free to list any minor alterations that you would like to see be taken into concideration; however, no major changes will be concidered. Also, please don't post pictures of what you believe a Byzantine Cataphract to look like. Xen has provided me with examples already.


Xen and I reserve the right to make a final judgement.

I like the left one. I take it that Xen has provided you with a lot of examples.:D I must say this one looks a lot better then the other Cat unit. BTW why ask us our opion if you two mke the final judgement? Also where are the gold circle on the cloth thing?

my persoanal opinion is that while cool, the more traditional Roman crest might be best, as the far left suffers from a bit of a "pointy helm" problem, though its no biggie- it would also have this unit represent a transition of srmour design from Roman to Byzantine, as this type of hel was in heavey use by both for extended periods of time...

but in this case, we're ALL winners here, and I would liek to give a big thanks to utahjazz7 for doing the fine work he has on this magnificent, and shall i say, ever-glorious unit :goodjob:

Originally posted by MarineCorps
I like the left one. I take it that Xen has provided you with a lot of examples.:D I must say this one looks a lot better then the other Cat unit. BTW why ask us our opion if you two mke the final judgement? Also where are the gold circle on the cloth thing?

because its such a hard chice- they ALL look uber cool!

as for the circles, it looked a bit "puffy' in the white cloth, and cicrles were going to prove to much trouble for what they were worth, so it was opted that instead of the cloth, and gold coverd circle armour, wed go with the realistically tougher, and more accurate for the more "common" officers (it seems to me that civ units represent the commanding officers) that material, is a chain mail, or scale mail over coat for horse- better protection, and far easyer to make

Oooo....yes, Yes, YES! :goodjob:

If I was forced to choose (and it is hard), then I'd say maybe the middle version, as it could cover a much wider time period, while the left hand one looks about 10th centuryish (with a Turkish/Saracen type helm).
But they all look good. :)
(Anyway....changing the head is not hard for a cut-'n-paster.... ;) )

I'd say the far right, as I think it important for thise who don't realize the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire, under new managment, to make the connection. They all look great. I would say that in any period mod I would use all three, each an upgrade to the next. I know you must have such a mod in the works somewhere Xen. Would let you live the glory of your adopted homeland ;)

It all depends on is utah was willing to animate them all ;)- though in any event i hope he keeps all three versions for safe keeping :D

I think either the left or center is fine, I voted left (traditional late Byzantine) but would prefer the center to the right. The unit looks really good though.

Question though - was the full horse armour (rather than just the front perhaps) typical of any particular periods or all, I know it was early Byzantine/late Roman but I've seldom noticed it in the later periods. I'd probably choose the fuller crest if this is more specifically an early (284-600 say) period unit.

But at any rate, now we'll need Byzantine infantry ;) to go with this great unit!

Originally posted by Antiochus VII
I think either the left or center is fine, I voted left (traditional late Byzantine) but would prefer the center to the right. The unit looks really good though.

Question though - was the full horse armour (rather than just the front perhaps) typical of any particular periods or all, I know it was early Byzantine/late Roman but I've seldom noticed it in the later periods. I'd probably choose the fuller crest if this is more specifically an early (284-600 say) period unit.

But at any rate, now we'll need Byzantine infantry ;) to go with this great unit!

well, you see, we used several pics in a composite to get the looks of the unit down, but more or less, this is a late roman-Mid Byzantine cataphract through, and through...which is one of the reasons i like the middle crest, aside from asthetics...

The left is defiently best IMHO. Good work Utah:goodjob:

I voted for the one farthest to the right. I think it has more of a Greek\Roman feel, and as Kryten said, transcends the borders of the later, downfall of the Byzantine Empire. Hell it would even transcends the borders of the Byzantine empire, effectively fitting any Greek\Roman classical cavalry:goodjob:. Also, seeing as Kinboat’s Cataphract looks more late-empire, I think a more Greek look would be more desired and unique.

I vote for the left one too :)

actually Kinboats cataphract is NOT a Byzantine cataphract at all- hence the need for a new cataphract,one based on the ancient Byzantine model, to take its place...

Left one.

What kind of cataphract is Kinboat´s?

Originally posted by BeBro
What kind of cataphract is Kinboat´s?

It would be more the Persian Sassanids' type.

long time lurker- first time poster :D

this is a cool unit, I like it alot, and I personally like the middle, and right ones best...they have a more western, "civilized" feel to them... and they look neat :)

interesting resultes so far- a majority for the pony tail crest, but the history buffs are taking the classic Centurion officer crest...

EDIT- welcome Goggles

English please Xen, Me not understand which you talk about.

Good work there, UJ7.

I'd choose the one in the left.

I'm a leftist. ;)

I say go with the one on the far left. It looks most unique and would be the best Byzantine UU.

After you're done with the Cataphract, do you think you could make that one well-known pikeman divison (v-something or another, I forgot what it was called)?

That way, we'd have:

Knight - Cataphract
Caravel - Dromon
Pikeman - V-somethingoranother

aaminion- you mean Varangi(u?)an Guard? That wouls be pretty cool too.

I disagree- the Varangian Guard would best be the replacement for medieval infantry, and that the pike replacement be the descendent of the legions, the Skoutatoi

also there is news :) at least two versions will be made, one Utah, and then once it is complete, kryten will use a head to cut-n-paste another version with the other helmet on :)

The only problem with the Byzantines and flavor units is as follows:


What would their ancient age units be?

Roman units? Or would we try and guess what legions and so forth would have looked like if the Byzantine culture which developed later on had existed from the start.

since the core of the Byzantine empire was Greece, I would give the Byzantines the same flavor units as the Greeks.

ahh yes- why didnt I think of it before0 this entire thing is just ripe for the big C3C mod!

the best answer is to base ancient Byzantine units on amixture of greece, and Rome...

though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets :D

Originally posted by Xen
ahh yes- why didnt I think of it before0 this entire thing is just ripe for the big C3C mod!

the best answer is to base ancient Byzantine units on amixture of greece, and Rome...

though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets :D

I completely agree! Some say, give the Roman an Italian infantry flavor unit to replace the infantry.

I say, make an infantry with a centurion helmet and call him "Legion Infantry" and have him replace the infantry for the Romans.

I think that if the Roman culture had remained intact then their infantry wouldn't look like the modern-day Italian infantry.

Originally posted by Xen
though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets :D Even if there still was a Roman empire I doubt they would be dressed like Legoinaries. Modern military does´nt like 18th century grenadiers at all.

why not? modern helmets, such as riot helmets are directlly based on the Corinthian helmet, all it need is a crest, and not be transparent in the cheeks- not to mention modern armies utilize armour- and If the roman empire survived why wouldnt they have looked to traditional patterns of dress to make it?- that is assuming that they gave it up at all, somthing doubtful for me to belive, as at least the officer core woul dhave wanted to look imposing styled like Hector, Romulus, or Achilles...

Something like this just begs for a Cut 'N' Paste job in my humble opinion:

Edit: It would be cool to have a different uniform so as to completely distinguish it from the standard infantry.

I always just pictured a civ3 Centurion with a gun :D

EDIT- like my current avatar in looks, or at least the helmet...:D

I like the one on the right more.

I like the one on the left, but the scale is so small it makes it a little difficult to tell the difference.

Originally posted by Xen
I disagree- the Varangian Guard would best be the replacement for medieval infantry, and that the pike replacement be the descendent of the legions, the Skoutatoi

The Varangian Guard were made up of axe-armed Varangians -- Vikings who had not gone west, but rather east, down the Eurasian riverways (esssentially founding Russia along the way).

Given that the "medieval infantry" is a "Firaxis hallucination", this unit should simply be the berserker without amphibious ability. BTW axe-armed Varangians (although, granted, not the imperial guard) were run utterly down; shred to ribbons; etc; when confonted by Roger the Norman's cavalry during his invasion of southern Italy in the late 11th century.

-Oz

I disagree. The Byzantine Empire largely incorporated ‘barbaros’ mercenary cavalry, such as Hunnic\Scythian cavalry, who used the advent of the Stirrup. At the time largely unknown to western civilization. Indeed from my understanding, the Byzantines first use of their own effective, non-mercenary cavalry was a type of heavily armored horse archer. Which eventually evolved into the Cataphract. Cataphracts, from my understanding actually used a bow, spear (lance), and short-sword.

http://www.crystalinks.com/byzanmap.gif

Also, the Byzantines conscripted, especially in the Belisarius times, many Persian\modern day Turkey; men. A majority of whom fought in important battles, and as soldiers in the Byzantines conquests. Syrians, Persian, Scythians, all these were famed for their cavalry, and all these were at one point used in Byzantine military movements.

From what I understand, popular fashion simply started to transform the image of the dress\gear of the cavalry as the Byzantine Empires views shifted to the East. So, my point is, the Byzantine cavalry in it’s early Empire and Greek militia\ soldiers in the later Empire would most likely have worn the head gear of the Roman times.

*cough* :) Anyway, Kryten is going to copy\paste another version you say? The more the merrier:D.

Really though, they all look good, just a matter of taste.

as far as Cataphracts go that description is close, but originally, they were simply heavey spear armed cavalry based of a combination of Persio-Parthisn, and Gothic-Sarmatian influences (and little ol' taste of the heavey cavalry of the successor states of Alexander perhaps,though thats a bit early...) it was contact with the huns that prompted the Eastern Empire to reform its cavalry into the multi-task force it was in the time of Belisarius, and it seems that they were so proficient in thire jobs, that Belisarius could leave the supporting troop- even the main Infantry in camp, and take out only the cataphracts- and mabey some horse troops mre adept at archery, and win the day...

also, when incorperating troops from Asia minor,theyre thoruolly hellinized- Greek influences had been in the area for ages, and europen stock strock migrating in for even longer periods...

also considering Kryten will making the loser, i think the one on the right should be made, and the Byzantine cut-n-pasted, as a good all around maed knight is needed, and we can wait till conquest for a necissarymid-late period Byzant cataphract...

The left is the best in my opinion and the polls, wow I really like to blab about the polls! But I think the middle one should be an upgrade of the horseman, or ancient cavalry in C3C, before it upgrades to a knights. The left should be Byzantines and the right could also be a generic cataphract except just to make them different and to include these three GREAT animations take away one attack point and add a defensive point or something.

It's just a thought because I love them all!

... You know, due to the different helms, the three units DO look different enough that I would recast my "vote" (the leftmost, if only one) FOR ALL THREE, as cavalry alternatives of this sort are always welcome.

There were evidently more than one "type" of cataphract during the long years of Byzantine glory; certainly I'd use one for "regular" and another for "elite". And I'd use the third as an equivalent-era unit for some Civ that never made it that far historically.

-- See, Utahjazz, it's true: "No good deed goes unpunished." :D

Seriously, they're all great; I'd use personally use them all; is it a pain to make all three? (2 notes: (i) I remain the self-proclaimed "graphics ignoramus" so I truly don't know if it's a pain or not; and (ii) I don't recall ever urging anyone to do an "all options" set of anything ;) )

Best,

Oz

Originally posted by ozymandias
... I don't recall ever urging anyone to do an "all options" set of anything ... I do. :D
I (among others) got Kindred to make two versions of the Arthurian Knights (with and without helmet), so there are precedents.

And the winner is . . .

I will animate the first version of the Cataphract--the one on the left. It has received a majority of the votes. The animating will take a good bit of time to complete, as the render times are pretty long, and I'm pretty busy these days. Well, I'll post updates as they come along.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Fiftha_Preview.gif

Beautiful! :thumbsup:

Originally posted by mrtn
I do. :D
I (among others) got Kindred to make two versions of the Arthurian Knights (with and without helmet), so there are precedents.

Or Bebro's Rafale Air and Rafale Marine or Tiger HAC and Tiger UHT, or Balou's Parachutiste and peace keaper

um ... my account is "invalid" or something and therefore, i cant vote. id say the right one is the best but also the left one is good. either one is fine by me

Well, I have put together a good palette for this unit, and I completed the default animation . . . further updates when there's news.

Looking good :thumbsup:

Nice Utah :goodjob:. When do you think you will have this done?

Here's what I have done so far: default, fortify, and attack.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Sixth_Preview.gif

I think uploading is down:(

edit-its working now:)

Utah the unit is great, but the attack is very odd IMHO. He should be stabbing, not hitting with the spear.

Very nice, UJ7. It's nice to have a different aproach with a spear-wielding unit :thumbsup:

The cataphract attack is a tricky one, since the weapon they use is a 2-hand spear, right? And while mounted, you really can't stab with a 2-hand spear while mounted.

In this light this attack is the only possible performable attack IMO.

And besides, spears aren't used only as a stabbing weapon - they are excellent as clubs too (relatively heavy head with long reach). In asia they sometimes use spears like swords.

I really don't know how else to make an attack with this unit.

Originally posted by aaglo
The cataphract attack is a tricky one, since the weapon they use is a 2-hand spear, right? And while mounted, you really can't stab with a 2-hand spear while mounted.


Not without stirrups anyway, which these units didn't possess.

BTW IIRC wouldn't these guys have disrupted their opponents first with arrows then closed to conclusively conclude matters? -- If you're chasing a guy on foot, whacking him with a good staff in the back of the head in the heat of battle is probably as effective as running him through, and doesn't risk getting your lance stuck in a corpse.

Morbidly Yours ;),

Oz

I like the attack myself
I also like all of them, though I voted for the one on the right. I would use them all if they were made. More units for fantasy mods.:thumbsup:

the attack is relativlly authentic- these spears were long, heavel bladed beasts in real life,and were used in all manners of way-the result is most like fencing on horseback, with a spear, combinations of both cuts, and thrusts all over the place...

Originally posted by Xen
the attack is relativlly authentic- these spears were long, heavel bladed beasts in real life,and were used in all manners of way-the result is most like fencing on horseback, with a spear, combinations of both cuts, and thrusts all over the place...

Xen,

I'm genuinely delighted to come across well-informed specialists in any historical era and area -- if I may ask, how is it that you're so well informed on Byzantium?

Best,

Oz

Originally posted by ozymandias


Xen,

I'm genuinely delighted to come across well-informed specialists in any historical era and area -- if I may ask, how is it that you're so well informed on Byzantium?

Best,

Oz
lot-o-ways... here are sme good sources, but just the tip of the ice burg really...
- http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MA/BYZ.HTM

- http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NotitiaPatterns.html

- http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlemain.php?artid=mtp_military

and my favorite :)-

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1855322242/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/102-1309901-7128913?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link

Is it just me or does the Horse's armor look like Sheep's wool?

I think the attack would be a little more dynamic, maybe, if the horse was running while the dude was whacking away with his big ol' spear. But maybe that's entirely innacurate? Beats me...!

Originally posted by Mithadan
I think the attack would be a little more dynamic, maybe, if the horse was running while the dude was whacking away with his big ol' spear. But maybe that's entirely innacurate? Beats me...!

Well, I once tried to make the Horse Archer a bit more 'dynamic' some time ago. :)
Unfortunately, although it looks great as a preview, people didn't like the idea of it 'running-on-the-spot' in the game. :(

So instead of this: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/preview_horse_archerG.gif they prefered this: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/preview_horse_archerS.gif

(Philistines! :p :lol: )

i wouldnt loved having a horse archer that ran like that. that wouldve been awesome. perhaps the cataphracts attack could become faster... it looks too slow.

Kryten's horse archer was exactly the unit I was thinking of when I made the suggestion for this Cataphract.

Couldn't he be jabbing away with that spear too, with his two handed grip?

I'm probably just causing more trouble, so I'll be shutting up now!

Originally posted by Mithadan
Kryten's horse archer was exactly the unit I was thinking of when I made the suggestion for this Cataphract.

Couldn't he be jabbing away with that spear too, with his two handed grip?

I'm probably just causing more trouble, so I'll be shutting up now!

:confused: I made the suggestion for the cataphract....

portraying Cataphracts as horse archers is a no-no however- it was a secondary use, apperntlly carried out by other cavalry, more devoted to full time archery then the cataphracts, and only employed by them(the cataphracts) when no other support troops were availible... taking needed spears away from a concetrated charge is generally a no-no...

:lol: No need to panic Xen :lol:

Mithadan was merely suggesting that the horse be a bit more 'dynamic', instead of just standing there. ;)

Originally posted by Mithadan
I think the attack could be a little more dynamic, maybe if the horse was running while the dude was whacking away with his big ol' spear. But maybe that's entirely innacurate? Beats me...!

I was just showing that I had once tried it, but most people didn't go for it.
(They didn't like the horse 'galloping-on-the-spot' during the attack animation)
I could just about get away with it with the Horse Archer (as he runs and shoots in different directions), but it would definitely look 'odd' having a Cataphract galloping FOWARDS but not getting anywhere against a stationary enemy. :D

Originally posted by Kryten
Mithadan was merely suggesting that the horse be a bit more 'dynamic', instead of just standing there.Quite so! Thanks for clearing that up in my absence, Kryten! :)

Kryten, I liked the running attack, and am using it in my game. :)

What if the horse is "twirling around", maybe on the back legs? I'm not proposing a full circle, just a bit of an arc, maybe 30-45 degrees? That would maybe give more of a melee-look.

Well, we're almost complete. Everything is done, but for one minor hiccup. As we speak, Kryten is putting the finishing touches on the attack animation. When he sends the improved file back to me, the unit will be finished, and I will upload it. Until then, here's a preview of the run animation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Heavy_Cataphract_Seventh_Preview.gif

Great anim :) Just to nitpick, I think the tail is a bit overdone (looks a bit like a flag in the wind). But the legs are top :)

very very nice!!! I like the tail :D

... but go work on a LotR unit next mKay ;)

If this isn't the best mounted unit I've seen yet, it's close.

I spose its too late to comment, but it seems as if the horse is giving that rider a very smooth ride. Doesn't a gallop sort of make the rider bob up and down as the horse runs along? That's how it feels to this sack-of-potatoes when I go riding! ;)

O_O that is the BEST mounted unit to date! Youve out done your self with this one, and I cant thank you enough for IT :goodjob:

@Mithadan- this can be explained by the Byzantines developing a special breed of "esy rider" horses, specifically designed and bred to offer the driver the smoothest ride possible, regadless of terrain, and weather conditions ;)

Originally posted by Mithadan
I spose its too late to comment, but it seems as if the horse is giving that rider a very smooth ride. Doesn't a gallop sort of make the rider bob up and down as the horse runs along? That's how it feels to this sack-of-potatoes when I go riding! ;)

Well, keep in mind that in the game, they only run for one square at a time.

Originally posted by Xen
This can be explained by the Byzantines developing a special breed of "esy rider" horses, specifically designed and bred to offer the driver the smoothest ride possible, regadless of terrain, and weather conditions ;) Fair enough! :)