Ok, what i'm thinking of doing is quite simple, I want to change the french musketeer to 2.5.1 instead of 3.4.1. I would add 10 shields to production. I need advice on this. Does this seem overpowered?

I realize it would make him the best defender of the era, as he would have one more defense point compared to attack points of nearly any offensive unit of the era, until the development of cavalry, 3 or so techs later. There are other offensive UU's in the game that are FAR ahead of the defense for their appropriate age, but I realize defense is a delicate issue. Any opinions? Would this be too difficult to overcome for an opponent? I can't seem to feel this one out by myself...
m1

Originally posted by meltone1
Ok, what i'm thinking of doing is quite simple, I want to change the french musketeer to 2.5.1 instead of 3.4.1. I would add 10 shields to production. I need advice on this. Does this seem overpowered?


Not so much overpowered as unrealistic -- and, believe me, there's been some debate on the issue, which, in this case is:

Q: "Are musketeers historically defensive units?"

A: "No, they were part of the main line of battle on both offense and defense for an awfully long time, protected by pikemen for their own defense."

So, personally, the one MUNIT I use is the tercio in lieu of the musketeer, call it a 4.4.1 flagged both O/D, and let 'em go at it.

-Oz

It makes sense game wise, though I wouldn't make it more expensive, as it's still double the cost of a pikeman.
The Hoplite costs as a spearman, with a 50% increase in defense, your musketeer would only get a increase of 25%.
But, as oz said, is it realistic? Personally I have Musketmen as attackers, and Crossbowmen and Pikemen as defenders in the Medieval era.

hey, thx for the replies guys. This just came to me.. how bout making them 3.5.1, and 70 shields? The thing is, I would make them 4.4.1, except for the fact that the samurai already has those A/D numbers, and that would obviously make him a superior UU, since he is available earlier, and has speed 2. The thing about the standard musketeer that I don't think works is the three attack by itself; that's just not enough to make a difference IMO. Making it 3.5.1 would be irregular, but perhaps somewhat along the lines of a berserk, mercenary, or a sipahi. Irregular, yet not totally overpowered. Anyone with me on this? Or do you think berserk, merc. and siph. are overpowerd too? hehe :rolleyes:
m1

In my mod I gave the musketeer +1 HP.
Not overpowered, but a clear advantage compared to the musketman.

BTW I made the musketman (and musketeer) an offensive unit (5/2/1). The main defender of this era is an advanced pikeman (2/4/1, available with education). By this means I get musketmen and pikemen fighting side by side, as it has been for a long period in real history (30 year war).

Here are some stats to help you with your comparison:

In all cases assuming Musketeer is fortified in a walled town on grasslands... Both Attacker and Defender are Elite...

Musketeer 3.4.1 (Default Musketeer) vs ...

Cavalry (6.3.3) 29.60% (Cavalry Victory) 62.67% (Loss) 7.73% (Draw)

Longbowman (4.1.1) 17.32% (Long. Victory) 82.68% (Loss)

Musketeer 2.5.1 vs ...

Cavalry (6.3.3) 19.41% (Cavalry Victory) 74.70% (Loss) 5.89% (Draw)

Longbowman (4.1.1) 10.11% (Long. Victory) 89.89% (Loss)

Musketeer 3.4.1 (+1hp) vs ...

Cavalry (6.3.3) 19.45% (Cavalry Victory) 74.32% (Loss) 6.23% (Draw)

Longbowman (4.1.1) 9.60% (Long. Victory) 90.40% (Loss)

On average a 2.5.1 Musketeer will survive an extra 10% of battles over a standard musketeer (as will the 3.4.1 +1hp Musketeer). To balance, you could increase the cost of the 2.5.1 musketeer to 10% over the standard cost.

A 2.5.1 Musketeer and a 3.4.1 (+1 hp) Musketeer are roughly the same unit in terms of probabilities on Defense... The best combination would be to make your new musketeer a 3.4.1 unit with 1 hp bonus and a 10% increase in cost. This gives you the equivalent of a 5 defense, you still have the 3 attack (excellent for taking down very weak defenders), but multiple attackers will still have a good chance to overtake the defender (since his true defense is still 4)

Originally posted by meltone1
The thing about the standard musketeer that I don't think works is the three attack by itself; that's just not enough to make a difference IMO

I disagree, an Elite Musketeer (unmodded) has a 69.76% chance of defeating a redlined fortified Rifleman in a walled town on Grasslands, and a 81.76% chance of doing the same to a musketman... Combined with cannons the musketeer can take a city. The prefered modded Musketeer (+ 1 hp) has a 76.20% chance with the Rifleman and a 87.02% chance with the musketman... The trick is to get them down to one or two hp before the Musketeers attack!

Originally posted by Der PH
In my mod I gave the musketeer +1 HP.
Not overpowered, but a clear advantage compared to the musketman.

BTW I made the musketman (and musketeer) an offensive unit (5/2/1). The main defender of this era is an advanced pikeman (2/4/1, available with education). By this means I get musketmen and pikemen fighting side by side, as it has been for a long period in real history (30 year war).

How well do you find the AI using the two units together? -- i.e., do you regularly encounter well-balanced stacks of the two together?

Thx,

Oz

Originally posted by ozymandias

How well do you find the AI using the two units together? -- i.e., do you regularly encounter well-balanced stacks of the two together?... The AI usually use the units in pairs, one attacker and one defender. In this case they'll have a Pikeman escorting a Musketman. Just the usual "good" AI.

Originally posted by mrtn
The AI usually use the units in pairs, one attacker and one defender. In this case they'll have a Pikeman escorting a Musketman. Just the usual "good" AI.

Exactly that way!

Originally posted by mrtn
The AI usually use the units in pairs, one attacker and one defender. In this case they'll have a Pikeman escorting a Musketman. Just the usual "good" AI.

Huh. I guess I must just have had some unusual encounters ... (sometimes I think the only item CFC lacks is a smiley icon for a shrug ...)

-Oz

FYI I raised the working-in-pairs question just now in the thread on AI build preferences, and mrtn pointed out:

"If you don't [mod your ini file and] add NoAIPatrol=1, the AI will often patrol it's lands. These patrols are often comprised of pairs, one offensive and one defensive unit."

-Oz

Originally posted by BomberEscort
Here are some stats to help you with your comparison:


BomberEscort,

I, for one, VERY much appreciate your mathematical analyses!

Best,

Oz