This will be a 5CC with a twist, the only permissible victory (for us) is 100K culture achieved by each of our 5 cities reaching 20K on the same turn! For the AI all victories are possible.

Inspiration: playing "MB1: 20K double Whammy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59366)", reading tales of RBCiv Epic 29 "The Five Pillars (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic29.html)" (Emperor, 5CC with Spaceship as target victory) and Bamspeedy's "100K with a 5CC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56401)" (Chieftain).

Map: Large, Continents, 80% Water
Climate: Warm & Wet
Geology: Rocky
Barbarians: None
Opponents: 7 random
Civ: Celts
Difficulty: Regent (but players will need to be comfortable at deity)
Victory: 20K in 5 cities to give 100K total

[ptw] 1.27

The Start
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-A.jpg

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-4000BC.zip)

Rules
I'd like to keep this a strict 24/48 - if you haven't posted a "Got it" by the end of the 24hr period then the next player is automatically up.
If you post a "Got it" and 48 hours pass without you posting anything then the next player is to take the save and play.
If you post a "Got it" and then have a RL emergency or simply find you can't complete your turn in time then please try and post a message to that effect ASAP in order that an extension may be granted or the next player can pick up and carry on.
Players may arrange to swap turns with the preceding or succeeding player or simply request a skip if they are unable to play.
These rules are simply common courtesy for you and your fellow players. Please don't leave the team hanging around waiting for you.

Exploits
Preferably we will play by the RBCiv "Honourable Tactics (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html)". Circumstances always alter cases so if a situation arises that requires 'Dastardly Tactics' then the player should use his best judgement or seek approval from his fellow players.

Roster
a space oddity
Karasu
Yndy --> Up
Northern Pike
TedJackson
mad-bax


Ted

Although the level is Regent this isn't going to be an easy ride and players will need to be comfortable playing at Deity. We have to reach our 100K target while preventing the AI from winning in any other manner. We need to choose the game settings with care or we'll be walking home with our heads in a basket :) Here are my initial thoughts on what would work.

Map: Large Pangaea - large to slow tech pace and Pangaea to avoid inaccessible resources.

Climate & Geology: Open for discussion - remember that we want the tech pace to be slow in order to be able to stay in the game during the late Medieval/early Industrial eras so warm & wet won't be helpful.

Traits: Some traits are going to be pretty worthless in this game. I can see no benefit at all from the Commercial or Industrious traits. Religious would seem to be of limited value as I we won't be building a lot of temples or switching Governments very often :) and we can apply a similar argument to Scientific although the free tech on new era might be handy.

This leaves Militaristic and Expansionist. I think Expansionist is essential for Goody Hut popping to ensure that we attain an early tech lead and Militaristic would give us a better chance of generating Leaders.

If we accept the above reasoning then we have the choice of Mongolia, Scandinavia or Zululand. The choice will probably come down which will trigger their Golden Age at the best time. This would seem to make the Zulu unattractive leaving us with a choice of Middle Ages (Mongolia) or Industrial Age (Scandinavia)

Number of opponents: Probably 7 - more would increase the tech pace, less wouldn't make it enough of a challenge.

Opponents: Random, hand-picked or a mixture? - I'd prefer not to have another expansionist AI.

Barb Setting: TBD - sedentary, roaming, restless (personally I dislike barbs in any shape or form but without goody huts this game is a non-starter)

Game Plan:
Executive Summary
Use our expansionist trait to secure an early tech lead then capitalise on our militaristic trait to beat the rest of the world to a pulp and reap the rewards :)

Detailed Plan
To be prepared...


Ted

I'm first in the rotation *again*?! If you guys aren't careful I'm gonna start having ideas. :D

Other ideas on the strat:
We need to explore the immiate surroundings more than I usually do, but contact the others early too. All the more reason for expansionist, I guess. City location is of the essence. We have to come up with an interesting pattern to make the most of a close FP. I'll think about that one some more.

Actually,

with only 5 cities we won't have to worry about a FP as we won't get the opportunity to build one. :)


Ted

Hi all. I'm just checking in.
I'd definitely go with a militaristic civ for generating leaders. I have no opinion whatever of barbs.

I have to say I think pangea could make our life difficult. With continents or islands tech pace will be slower as contacts will not be made until navigation. Since we are limited to 5 cities there will always be fodder on our continent for leader generation. But hey, why make it easy?

I'm not going to play until my total number of SG's reduces. I am sure that 2 will finish this week.

Ted: I know you are being courteous in putting yourself last on the roster, but please put me last if you don't mind.

This'll be a lot of fun. :)

Of course... :wallbash: Let's call it Monday morning.

edit: this was meant as a reply for Ted, on the 'no FP' remark.

Originally posted by mad-bax
I have to say I think pangea could make our life difficult. With continents or islands tech pace will be slower as contacts will not be made until navigation. Since we are limited to 5 cities there will always be fodder on our continent for leader generation. But hey, why make it easy? Having never attempted anything like this before I don't know if pangaea is our best shot. I just wanted to avoid a "Where's the Coal? What... on an island surrounded by Muskets or Rifles" situation :)

Originally posted by mad-bax
Ted: I know you are being courteous in putting yourself last on the roster, but please put me last if you don't mind. Done.

Originally posted by mad-bax
This'll be a lot of fun. :) I hope so. I think it will be a real challenge.


Ted

I'll try to keep an eye on this. :) I'd play, but I'm only playing on regent, so it'd be too hard for me...

You got me interested and I looked over Bamspeedy’s game. It was very nice but unfortunately too ‘extreme’ for my taste. I would also hate those tens of turns when you only wait the culture to accumulate. Good luck and fish for leaders.

Originally posted by Yndy
I would also hate those tens of turns when you only wait the culture to accumulate. Good luck and fish for leaders. I think there will be enough action to keep you amused. Have a look at MB1: 20K double whammy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59366) for an idea of how much war you can have in a "Culture" game :)


Ted

Indeed.
However, with five cities only we will have to be more careful with our warring, as the army support cost will be a factor throughout the whole game (sigh... I liked *so much* those 150 tanks in MB1...)

------ Other thoughts.

I'd go with a 'light' barb setting. We don't want another wandering barb to kill our prebuild on the Pyramids -in this game, that would really hurt.

Pangea vs Continents: this is tough.
It may not be all that difference, however: with 5CC, a key resource can be too far away even if it is in our continent. We would have to use colonies anyway; on a Pangea map we would have easier access by land, but the same would hold for all other civs.
And a continents map would slow down the tech pace, as mad-bax says.

The civ? I agree on exp - mil.
IIRC, both the Keshik and Berserk come in the MA.
Right now, I have a slight preference on the mobility of the K compared to the amphibious attack of the B, but I can easily change my mind.

I agree, it will only get tedious after it has been very very difficult, Yndy. I would very much like to have you aboard. We can use some very good players. :)

You were actually right Ted. And I’ve never played with a space oddity or any other kind of oddity actually :D.

OK, I’m game but only because of the quote below:
Originally posted by mad-bax
Personally, I rarely think this is a good move. My preference is to always |||| first, which allows you to ||| later. It's more efficent that way I find. However the rest of the turn was truly inspired. :)

Now that’s serious action. I want some of that too :D.

Welcome aboard Yndy,

you'll just have to learn to ignore mad-bax in his manic phase (he needs his medication upping :))


Ted

This isn't a signup, but as the architect of Epic 29, here's some of my thoughts:

You must-must-must have tech go as slow as possible. Whatever map you pick, go with 20% land. Land size is extremely important in determining how fast tech goes. I would definitely suggest not a pangaea, and you may even want an archipelago. Picking your opponents to not be scientific will also help - one of the best ways to lose out on middle ages wonders is to have Feudalism pop in for free while you're trying to complete the Great Library.

Religious is quite possibly the best civ trait. It flat-out gets you to victory sooner with the anarchy reduction. Also, don't underestimate the cheaper buildings. You can whip a 30-shield temple far sooner than a 60-shield one, and that 80 shields saved on the cathedrals can easily make the difference between landing or missing a wonder.

I would strongly suggest no barbarians at all, not even huts. Especially on large maps, huts tend to shoot the game through the ancient age tech tree very quickly, which you don't want.

Without huts, of course you don't want an Expansionist civ. I picked Arabia for Epic 29 based on the theme and the Religious trait, not this.

Militaristic is probably the second-best trait, and prepare for a good amount of middle-ages warring for Great Leaders. If you pick the Aztecs, you also get the pseudo-expansionist Jaguars anyway.

If you pick a large map, I might suggest Scientific instead of militaristic. Large maps will offer enough targets for even a non-militaristic civ to get some leaders, and the free scientific techs (especially if your opponents aren't scientific) go a long way towards keeping your economy competitive.

Finally, remember that a true 100K cultural victory requires having double the culture of any other civ. This will be just about impossible on a large map, and difficult on a small, without just effectively conquering your way to victory anyway and sandbagging until the culture triggers.

Great suggestion, T-Hawk.

Archipelago makes me wonder... 5CC with each city on a different island? :eek:

Yndy, glad to have you in :)

Originally posted by Karasu
Archipelago makes me wonder... 5CC with each city on a different island? :eek:

Something for KAR1 perhaps? :p

Originally posted by T-hawk
This isn't a signup, but as the architect of Epic 29, here's some of my thoughts:Thanks for taking the trouble to post T-hawk. Some of my ideas were way off-base it seems :)

One quick question though. How do I make a map that's only 20% land?

@All
OK, which way shall we go on this?

I like the idea of a large map, Archipelago, no barbs and a Mil/Rel Civ. I'm even tempted to try Karasu's one city per island idea.

Let me know your thoughts and preferences.


Ted

We can't do 100K with 1 city per island since we would have to get to map making before founding our second city, and we would have to do our own research.

I think the map editor allows you to select 80% water coverage as an option.

I would not go for Islands as we will definitely be short of resources and luxes. I'd rather a continents map, with lots of jungle (so long as we don't start in it). But agian, why make it easy? I've learned a lesson from my games that if you set everything in the most advantageous way for a particular objective then it makes it too easy. All three of my games were too easy.

I'd say large continents, 8 rivals and a non-coastal start.

Originally posted by mad-bax
We can't do 100K with 1 city per island since we would have to get to map making before founding our second city, and we would have to do our own research.

I think the map editor allows you to select 80% water coverage as an option. I obviously forgot to put my thinking hat on today :blush:

Originally posted by mad-bax
I would not go for Islands as we will definitely be short of resources and luxes. I'd rather a continents map, with lots of jungle (so long as we don't start in it). But agian, why make it easy? I've learned a lesson from my games that if you set everything in the most advantageous way for a particular objective then it makes it too easy. All three of my games were too easy.

I'd say large continents, 8 rivals and a non-coastal start. I can live with those MB.

I too am worried about getting the difficulty level right, especially as I've played in games with everyone on the roster and have a high regard for their level of competence :)


Ted

I'd like to play. :)

Might the Babylonians be a good choice? In addition to the good things which have already been said about the religious and scientific traits for this variant, getting every available cultural building constructed at the earliest possible moment is going to be essential, and they're the kings in this respect. As for the Bowmen, they have the perverse advantage that because they aren't much good, we wouldn't lose anything by keeping them out of action until we wanted to trigger our GA.

Nice to see you here NP,

I've added you to the roster.

Babylon (Rel/Sci) is a possibility I'll organise a vote tomorrow and see where we are.


Ted

The three traits that seem to be the most appropriate are Militaristic, Religious & Scientific. That would give us the choice of:

Aztec (Mil/Rel) - UU Jaguar (AT)
Babylon (Rel/Sci) - UU Bowman (AT)
Celt (Mil/Rel) - UU Gallic Swordsman (AT)
Germany (Mil/Sci) - UU Panzer (IA)
Japan (Mil/Rel) - UU Samurai (MA)

So could everybody please vote for their favourite and 2nd favourite choices and we'll see where we stand after that.


Ted

If I hadn't played a couple of recent games as Japan I might have gone for them.

As for UU my thoughts are like this...
Aztec - too early
Babylon - too early
Celts - too expensive, but a little later and a fast unit. Needs iron.
Germany. If you even have to ask....
Japan, a little late, needs iron and also needs horses if we intend to upgrade to them Japan also starts with the wheel which would be a trading advantage.

I would vote Celts first and Babylon second. I have never played as Babylon - Now the thought has occurred to me I'm amazed.
But as long as it's not Aztec or Germany I'm happy.

Our choice of civ and our choice of geography are intimately related, of course. If we're going to play on an archipelago map, my preferences are 1) Babylon, 2) Celts. If we choose continents or a pangaea, 1) Celts, 2) Babylon.

The Celts look very strong for our purposes, unless we choose a (probably) peaceful island start. The high shield cost of Gallics would be as much an asset as a handicap, since given that maintenance costs will always be an issue, we want a quality-not-quantity army. And with strong players facing regent-level AI civs, we should be able to conduct our early wars without losing many Gallics.

I like the Celts too, haven't played them much yet. I like the Japs as a second option and I wouldn't rule out the Germans, even if they have a late UU.
I guess we stand a good chance for a Wonder induced GA anyway with all the cities needing 20k.

Originally posted by a space oddity
I guess we stand a good chance for a Wonder induced GA anyway with all the cities needing 20k.

This is a good point. :thumbsup: We will get a wonder induced GA, so panzers would be a good tool for leader generation later on. Decisions, decisions.

I still prefer Celts though, but put the Germans back on the list. :)

For quick reference here's a Wonder/Trait Matrix with Ancient Times highlight for Militaristic, Religious & Scientific.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Wonder-traits.gif

Hope it helps.


Ted

Exactly.
Since we will have to build all the wonders, including th great wall it will be the great wall that triggers our GA. We had this discussion in MB1. We have to build it, even if it's only to stop the wonder cascade.

I am more convinced now that the Celts would be the best choice.
We can generate leaders easily from Mech Transport onwards. It's the AA and MA wonders that will elude us. So we need a strong unit with high surviveability to generate elites and leaders.

My vote for the Celts is firm now.

I also think that barbs should be turned off completely to slow the tech rate.

Edit:
What we really need is a plan to get all 5 cities to 35cpt by 1400AD. Work it out. It aint easy.

My first choice would be Japan for a good Mil/Rel combo and the handy Samurai and my second choice Babylon for cheap culture. Sorry if I’m not following the thread closely, I have a lot of work.

I hope nobody wrote that before but I feel we should initiate and support multiple wars to discourage research. I believe that a relatively small stack of units should be able to hold the AI.

Edit: I'd still go for a pangaea map. At lest we would be able to monitor all the AI's.

Originally posted by Yndy

Edit: I'd still go for a pangaea map. At le[a]st we would be able to monitor all the AI's.

I was thinking the same thing. We have to keep them from growing too big. If we're on a different continent that's very hard...

I am still puzzled by this.
I see it as a trade-off between tech pace and easy access to the AI lands for our (small!) army, with Archipelago easing up the first point and Pangea the second.
In the end, it may be that Continents is the best compromise between the two, but that's still debatable as far as I can say.

Regarding the civ, I like both Celts and Japanese if we go for Mil/Rel. The Celts UU comes a bit too early for my liking, but given the 'compulsory AA Golden Age' that's not a big deal.
I'm happy with either.

As a second choice, Babylon woud be fine.

I've never played with Germany, so we can even go with Bismarck. The Anarchy turns are going to make it complicated for Space to keep track of the culture points, though... ;)

Originally posted by Karasu
... to keep track of the culture points, though...
Every SG its own volunteer, that's what I say. :D

I like the Samurai. My objection to it is based on the Wonders that become available at the end of the AA and beginning of the MA.

We have the Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Sistine, Sun Tzus and Leos all on top of each other. The Samurai come too late to help with that. To get them all we need leaders. The retreat capability of the Gallic swords means that they will die less often tahn regular swords and so we will get leaders earlier.

For me it is a question of balancing 3 things.

1. Leader generation - ideally this would be a militaristic civ with a strong UU with high surviveability. Celts or Japanese.

2. Tech rate control. This means islands map with no barbs (or huts). combined with terrain that is difficult for the AI to improve. Lots of jungle, lots of mountains.

3. Access to resources. This means Pangea with a high water to land ratio.

So that is why I argue for Celts on a wet, young, 80% water, continents map with no barbs.

I think this would be the easiest setting. Do we want the easiest setting?

EDIT: Religious trait is a given for me. 8 turns of anarchy would be a killer, and two lots of anarchy to get to Democracy would be suicidal. Though I doubt we will need Democracy as worker rate and corruption are unlikely to affect us much.

But how easy is easy in this case?

AFAIK it's never been achieved at any level above chieftain.

That's what I mean. :)

I would agree with Mad-Bax...

Thinking of the slow start on MB1, where the 20k cities were 'only' two, I think we will have a hard time getting our game started.
Not only will we get a small army, but it will also come quite late in the game.
In this sense, I would not dislike a quiet starting position...

But we will need some good, large land in our starting position to get all five cities capable of working on wonders. Won't 80% water be somewhat extreme in this regard? Just asking; if you feel this is going to be too easy, just pick a random setting ;)

..."Or have us play with our hands tied behind our backs"... :D

I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion today as I've been busy and also wanted an opportunity to think.

I'll just summarise the voting so far:

mad-bax - Celts or Babylon
Karasu - Celts or Babylon
Yndy - Japan or Babylon
Space - Celts, Japan or Germany (typical woman, can't make her mind up :))
Northern Pike - Celts or Babylon

So the Celts are the clear favourite. I'm going to make an executive decision and choose continents, wet & rocky for the map.

I'll roll some starts tomorrow morning to decide what land size to go with.

I hope that doesn't distress anybody too much. :)


Ted

You're a brave man TJ...

You know me... I can never resist an easy target :)



Ted

What can I say: I can't read instructions... I only write them. :lol:

As promised, here are the starts.

I cannot believe how long this took. I used the Editor to generate maps for general form & shape then went through about twenty starts to get these four.

I think they have enough in common yet are different enough to choose between. So here they are:

Start A
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-A.jpg

Start B
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-B.jpg

Start C
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-C.jpg

Start D
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-D.jpg

Vote for your favourite.


Ted

B is a McDonald's start (endless food, no resources), and easy to eliminate. C is nice, especially since the rump of a second elephant can be discerned, but I don't think it can compete with two cows. In an ordinary game I'd prefer D to A, because two good city sites can already be seen (just NW of the settler, and on the eastern hill). But if we take the view that overlap between cities is unacceptable in a 5CC, this argument doesn't apply. The single best site on offer is probably one tile SW of the settler in A.

Hmmm, I agree A and D look the best. On both of them there's coast visible. There's no way to know, but A looks like fresh water where in D it might be salty. Which is interesting since we need at least 1 city to be on the sea.

edit: to prevent any comments :p I should make clear that if forced I would choose A too, for its bigger early growth potential.

I vote A or C. I believe A is much better than D because it has hills, gold and a BG visible. Later in the game it will have a high shield and commerce output and will have enough food to comfortably support a pop of 26 or more.

The mountains in D will reduce the POP limit later in the game.

I also have a sneaking liking for C. The game/wheat combination is powerful and there is a lux we won't need to colonise. We can use forrestry to control shield output. So irrigate the Game and mine the wheat for a 4 turn settler factory, then mine the game after four settlers have been made, (and eventually re-forrest it).

A is better though. More river tiles and 2 cows. Gotta go with that.

My vote is also A. But I don’t know what’s your problem with B. If one location can support micromanaging it’s B that can get almost all combinations of food and shields. There’s also a lot of riverbanks. I agree that the settler needs to be moved to get the golden hill and move away from potential salt water tile.

So it’s A, then B.

I wasn't expecting you all to be so consistent :)

Start A it is.

I'll update the first post later today and post the save Sunday night/Monday morning unless people want to start sooner.


Ted

Don't move for the gold hill. You won't use the gold hill until well into the middle ages, and another city will likely pick it up long before then. One salt water tile won't kill a city either; you won't even use it until 1600 AD. :) The starting spot is just fine; it has food bonuses for fast early growth and four hills (there's another one beyond the NE hill) which is just as many as you get by moving.

Just popped in to say A would have been my vote too (if we're playing Regent we need not be maniac about luxuries -yet).

I was just being Democratic Karasu :)

Four out of Six having voted for A. A it was


Ted

Of course. I added my vote just for the record :)

I've updated the first post to reflect the settings.

Roster
a space oddity --> Up
Karasu
Yndy
Northern Pike
TedJackson
mad-bax

Space to take 20 turns to start us off then reverting to 10 turns each.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-4000BC.zip)

Good luck.


Ted

So, first question: where to put the first city... stay put or move to SW.

Staying put has the following
pro's
- Palace is built one turn earlier
- 2 cows in the first 9 tiles

con's
- possible 1 salt water tile
- miss the gold hill

I think the pro's outweigh the con's.

4000BC - turn 1
Let's move the worker to the grassy cow first before deciding.
That reveals more grass and a forest, no reason to move.
I found our capital on the spot. That reveals the coast is a small lake and there's one more cow on plains! Start building a worker.

Now for the research options (we have ), we are in this world with the
Persians: they start with Masonry, Bronze Working
Germans: Bronze Working, Warrior code
French: Alphabet, Masonry
Cathegians: Alphabet, Masonry
Spanish: Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial
Russians: Bronze Working, Pottery
English: Alphabet, Pottery.
Do we as group consider this knowledge an exploit? If so, I'm sorry. :sad:

Normally I would start with Pottery for growth but maybe here the Wheel is a better choice, start researching it on 20%.

3950BC - turn 2
Worker starts irrigating the cow.

3900 till 3750BC - turn 3, 4, 5 and 6
Our first Warrior is ready, start another. Worker starts roading the tile.
Now where to send the Warrior? The minimap shows we're in the east, so west seems good, the hills will provide a better view too.

3700BC - turn 7
Our capital has grown to size 2. The warrior reveals lots of mountains. No luxes yet.

3650BC - turn 8
Our Warrior reveals a better spot in the north east, with a river and wheat.

3600BC - turn 9
Our second warrior is ready, start one more. This warrior moves south, revealing jungle.
The worker moves to the plains cow, this reveals Incense in the hills. :)

3550BC - turn 10
Worker starts irrigating the cow.

3500BC - turn 11
Our capital has its first cultural expansion, it looks like we have some good lands in the east.
More mountains in the west, more jungle in the south.

3450BC - turn 12
Our third warrior is born, start one other.
Our capital grows again, now making 6 spt!
The new warrior goes east, adjust the slider to (7.1.2), making 3gpt.
There are Gems in the southern jungle!
There's sea in the Northwest.

3400BC - turn 13
More Incense in the southeast.

3350BC - turn 14
The worker starts a road. The warrior in the Northeast finds floodplains.
The new warrior goes east, start Rax. No temple yet because we want the cities to grow in an even tempo. Maybe this is :smoke:, but its the choice I made.

3300BC - turn 15
MM for more gold. Too bad the cows are not on the river tiles.

3250BC - turn 16
There seems to be coast in the east as well.

3200BC - turn 17
Our city grows again, the slider goes to (6.1.3).
The Rax is ready, finally start settler.
The southern warrior reveal a light blue (spanish?) border, actually quite near. :crazyeye:

3150BC - turn 18
The eastern sea would make a good spot for the second city, near 5 bonus grasses.

3100BC - turn 19
Meet Spain. Isabella has 1 size 2 city and knows Bronze working and Alphabet, but lack Warrior Code. She won't part with Alphabet, but we can buy Bronze Working (Colossus) for WC and 17g. I make the deal.

IT
Isabella wants us to leave her turf, ok. :)

3050BC - turn 20
Bust some more fog.

3000BC - turn 21 (Just to even out the years, you see ;) )
Madrid is now size 1. I bet it was building a settler all the time and just grown to 3 and produced it! :lol:

the future:
We really need a second city to pay for the troops. Looking back I maybe should have constructed the Rax earlier, since we'll have manage our military carefully, having only the most modern best trained troops. All the current warriors are reg, so unless they can be trained, they will have to be abandoned, which is a waste and a shame, I've grown quite fond of them already. :)

The land:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-TheLand.JPG

The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-3000BC.SAV

How about all of us look and see which city spots we like?

Good start Space :thumbsup:

Might I suggest 1NW of the Northern mountain as our coastal city site - 2 Cows, 2 hills (one with Incense) and a mountain.

Karasu is UP!


Ted

Yes, that's a good spot. This is what I was thinking:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-TheLandWithDots.JPG

And we should claim the gems, there's probably good land under that jungle. But it'll take awhile before it's productive. On the other hand we should try to prevent Spain claiming it, a colony disappears when an AI settles close to it.

edit: sorry for not resizing the image.

I think the Eastern site should be 1 SW of it's present location (move to the hill). We pull in 2 extra BG that way.

South of the Gems might pay off long term, it depends on whether or not it's all jungle under the FoW.


Ted

Fine work, Space. :goodjob:

Space mentions that "we want the cities to grow in an even tempo" culturally. Now, the rest of you have played games of this sort before and I haven't, so I'm not going to disagree too forcefully. But is this necessarily true? We'll have much more freedom to stuff all the later Wonders into our fourth and fifth cities, which may be necessary, if our early cities build up powerful cultural positions as quickly as possible.

To put that more generally, our goal here is so difficult that I doubt we can afford the luxury of having all five cities advance towards 20K in lockstep. We'll probably have to accept, and manage, different cultural growth curves in different cities.

A slightly different sitemap, and some thoughts:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-3000BC-sitemap.JPG

Site 1 has six mountains and a desert within its radius, but also five high-food tiles. A city here could be very productive eventually, but might require too many worker-turns before it became useful, so this is just a tentative suggestion.

Site 2 is a location for the northern city which would claim all three cows (which Ted's doesn't do) and provide a coastal town (which Space's doesn't do). I'm assuming that this would be a river city despite the way in which the river graphic curves away from the map grid; if I'm wrong, let me know.

Site 3 sacrifices a coastal location, on the assumption that site 2 will supply one, to claim more BG. (Do we want two coastal cities, given that this is a continental map? We need to discuss this.) But with no bonus resources beyond BG and no river, perhaps this area isn't good enough for one of our cities. We shouldn't rush to found here, anyway.

Site 4 is a location for our eastern city which keeps Ted's two additional BG and adds the gold mountain, without quite overlapping with First Famous.

I can't see a third Cow at site your site 2 but 1, 3 & 4 all look good.

Site 1 could perhaps be our last site settled unless something better turns up.

Ok, some thoughts about the sites I chose:

The site in the north (2-ish :) ) is placed to be on the river and will scrape together a lot of shields (which it will do less when it's on the coast).

The site in the east is on the coast, not on a river but is very foodrich and also will be able to have a good production. It's a bit further out to claim as much land as possible with only 5 cities. Tha AI won't try to settle inbetween before the cultural borders grow and by then it'll be too late.

The city in the southeast is on the river and again will be a good productive city.

I guess the underlaying decision is do we go for OCP or a bit wider?

Ted, you certainly can't see the third cow from the screenshot. If you load up the save, about a rump steak's worth of it is visible under the fog. :D

Space, I take your point about spacing (:)) our cities so that we'll control culturally more tiles than we can actually work. My assumption is that we'll we very active militarily, and will just solve the problem of nearby enemy cities by destroying them, but I'm new to this kind of game and don't claim to be an authority.

NP: This is my first attempt in a game with a limited number of cities too. And playing those first truns made me realise I rely havily on early rapid expansion. One more reason to discuss these matters, if only to make the learning curve even steeper. :D

One thing I learned from reading articles is that resources are of the essence and those that don't need colonies are easier to defend, since claimed lands cannot be undone by (temporary :evil: ) settlement.

edit: fixed smiley

Back from my neck of the woods... :D ...and got it.

I gave a little thinking to city placement, and I agree with NP's suggestions (trusting him on the three cows, and I too believe number 2 is on a river). The FP will go in the "most corrupt" of the four.
Btw, I would settle 2 next.

The doubt is how do we proceed with the building queues. I think we don't want to have all five cities building (or pre-building) wonders at the same time for long periods.

Just an idea (I'm not not really sure): I would get one (max two) more settlers our of First, then build the last two settlers in Second and start working on Pyramids as soon as possible. We'll need to squeeze some workers, units and a Temple from the other cities before they start building wonders too.

Originally posted by Karasu
The doubt is how do we proceed with the building queues. I think we don't want to have all five cities building (or pre-building) wonders at the same time for long periods.

Just an idea (I'm not not really sure): I would get one (max two) more settlers our of First, then build the last two settlers in Second and start working on Pyramids as soon as possible. We'll need to squeeze some workers, units and a Temple from the other cities before they start building wonders too. This is where the fun & skill comes in :)

There are going to be some hard choices. Luckily we are Religious so Temples come a bit cheaper but for these early Wonders I think we're going to need a Temple and a full garrison to support a Wonder build in any city.

Add to that the need for Barracks in the not too distant future and it all starts looking complicated :)


Ted

Ted, there's a Rax in First already. And like me, Karasu, you need to raelise there'll be no FP for us....

It's not easy. I think we will need to generate leaders early and often. I don't think we can afford to build wonders in more han 1 city at a time. For this reason I think that builds should be temples then rax then units then libraries etc. I think that we should build more open than OCP, and this in turn will mean using fast units so we can defend ourselves (for instance RCP at 6 with no river crossing).

We are (I believe) going into an pseudo AW game in practical terms at least until the end of the Hanging Gardens, Sun Tzu, Sistine et al wonder run.

I think we need lots of units, and therefore I would prioritise sites for shields over food. We will compensate for low food by not building settlers (obviously) or many workers (we will need to get them from the AI IMO).

My worry would be getting colossus and lighthouse in the same city.

So I think that all 5 settlers should come out of the capital. We can build a couple of workers and a few garrison units and then pyramids in the second city. I don't think we can afford to build a wonder in the capital.

Originally posted by mad-bax
So I think that all 5 settlers should come out of the capital. We can build a couple of workers and a few garrison units and then pyramids in the second city. I don't think we can afford to build a wonder in the capital.

Yes, that's my fear also, one of the reasons to build a rax in the capital. We should only build vet units from now on. And what's more, I think the reg ones should be used as cannon fodder, if they're lucky they'll upgrade. Which I sincerely hope. :D

So which spot would need to be built first. The coastal one? Like MB points out, we need Colossus and the Lighthouse. i needs to grow rapidly too. So maybe we *should* make the cow site our coastal city and our second. Please feel free to shoot at this idea. We need the combined brainpower... :)

Originally posted by a space oddity
And like me, Karasu, you need to raelise there'll be no FP for us....

Of course, I'll write in big red capital letters on the wall in front of me! :D

I think that using the capital just for units (and of course 'normal' culture buildings), at least for the time being, may be the way to go. This clearly means relying quite heavily on great leaders.

I also agree with having Temples and Barracks everywhere first.

Still, I think we will be able to build a wonder in the capital (with a possible parallel prebuild with the Palace in another city). Right now, I can't see the difference from building the wonder in another city (with the same Palace prebuild).
In fact, with all the wonders available in the first two Ages, we may need at least two cities busy with prebuilds at any given time. And rotate them.


We are not going to be able to pay for a very large army, however, and this may become a strong limitation for us. Incidentally, that's why I would prioritize the Pyramids: it's +5 gpt for us beside the faster growth. Not too much, but everything helps. Plus, we deny it to the AIs, which may be even more important.

I don't object to building a wonder in the capital per se. We could prbably get 3 leaders in the AA at a push, if we're lucky 1 or two more. We will need to build Pyramids, colossus and Oracle. The others we whould at least try to get with leaders.

At regent to be reasonably sure of Oracle you need to build it by around 800BC, pyramids - 600BC and colossus on a continents map say 300BC (YMMV). So I would start pyramids in town 2, because it will not take a pop hit in making settlers and allow it to catch up. Colossus in the coastal city and then maybe Oracle in the capital once it has a temple a rax and made 4 or 5 fast units.

The 4th and 5th city will still be building temples, raxes and a couple of workers at this time, so they have no chance of getting early wonders. Hopefully we'll get leaders for HG in one and GL in the other.

My point is that the shield cost of building wonders is far too high for us to build them. 10 horses is a better investment, and you could get a couple of leaders from them. We've just got to do it early.

Can I just add The Great Library to the list of Ancient Times' Wonders we will need.

That gives us:
Pyramids (Ind/Rel, 4cpt, 400 shields)
Colossus (Exp/Rel, 3cpt, 200 shields)
Oracle (Rel, 4cpt, 300 shields)
Great Library (Sci, 6cpt, 400 shields)

We could cascade to:
Hanging Gardens (Ind, 4cpt, 300 shields)
Lighthouse (Exp/Com, 2cpt, 300 shields)

We need to avoid:
The Great Wall (Mil/Ind, 2cpt, 200 shields). As this in conjunction with any Religious Wonder would trigger our GA too early.

The honeymoon's over. It's all graft from here on in :)


Ted

Here I am. Sorry for the delay, I was caught in a meeting for the whole day yesterday...

Pre-turn
Not much to check actually...

How to proceed?
I decide to found on the wheats first, because:
- fast city growth with unimproved territory (might build workers),
- roading towards there will connect a luxury.


Turn 1 - 2950 BC
First: Settler - warrior.
I will let First grow back to size four before starting another settler. In eight turns we get two warriors and a settler, which is not too bad -even though there are some wasted shields and food; maybe someone very very fond of micromanaging will come up with a better idea...


Turn 3 - 2850 BC
First: Warrior - warrior


Turn 4 - 2800 BC
Worker finishes roading the cow. Moves W.


Turn 5 - 2750 BC
First: warrior - Settler
Second Famous founded: Worker


Turn 9 - 2590 BC
First: Settler - warrior
Worker roading towards Second.
Exploration to the east reveals no other civs nearby.
Since the risk of loosing our eastern city sites seems small, I will send the second settler to the north (cows).


Turn 10 - 2550 BC
Nothing much.
My idea was to build a couple of workers in Second, to improve a bit there and then carry on to Third. Another group of three workers could do the same towards the two eastern cities.

I have spotted coast south of Madrid. Looks like the Spanish are bottled on the edge of our continent. If there is noone else, we won't have many chances to trade techs and get leaders.

Screenshot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ001.jpg


And the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-2550_BC.zip)

OK, got it and will play tonight.
Just to check, our third city will go where NP said and will build Worker, Temple, Colossus.

Last two cities go where NP said or where a space oddity suggested?

Edit: Our capital will continue building some warriors and then start on a temple and a wonder

Well done Karasu, hard when every decision has to be thought through, isn't it? ;)

@Yndy: Let's see where the resources are before we make that decision. Getting IW should have the highest priority.

@Karasu
Nice, steady play. Good choice on the Wheats :thumbsup:

@Yndy
NP's site 2 looks favourite as our next settlement then probably site 3 unless we discover something better.


Ted

You see, Yndy, I'm just being ignored here. :cry: ;)

Sorry Space,

but unless you're hoping for Ironworks later :D I think it's fairly irrelevant as we can colonise Iron if need be.

Just my usual (random) thoughts :)


Ted

Well, now that you mention it, we seem to be very lucky in that department lately. :D

Good work so far, Space and Karasu.

Ted? :) Baxter? :lol: Mr. Jones? :D Well, we're never going to have many soldiers playing this variant, so I suppose we might as well treat them as individuals. :goodjob:

Naming all our cities "X Famous" is likely to create confusion--did we learn nothing from the Izmit/Iznik fiasco? ;) Let's call them First Famous, Second Sight, Third Person, Fourth Horseman, and Fifth Wheel. :cool:

On reflection, I think our northeastern city should be founded on the grassland tile one NW of my site 3 (or one SW of Space's red dot). It's probably worth sacrificing one BG to get a second coastal city, and (less importantly) to avoid any overlap with site 4.

If we're going to give First Famous a break before it produces its next settler, I'd rather see it build its temple than more warriors.

Be strong, space. ;)
I have been thinking about the eastern cities. It may be good to found 3 on the coastal hill site (i.e., to space's original suggestion), since:
- with border expansion it will get two more incense that may have some trading value (if we ever spend some time at peace with someone)
- it may not be bad to have two coastal cities. As MB said, having to build both Colossus and Lighthouse in the same city may be too much of a constraint. Plus, we will want to build some boats sooner or later.

Of course, that will mean loosing some BG. But I think the trade-off is worth considering.

Other than that, I would build the last two cities as soon as possible. With all those hills and mountains, I wouldn't be surprised to see Iron within our borders or not too far away.

EDIT: Hi, NP. We cross-posted, it seems...

I've got my fingers crossed :)


Ted

So we agree that city 3 should be coastal. The second cultural expansion will take in the incense even if we choose the site I now prefer, and we probably won't need it for trade any earlier than that.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
Ted? :) Baxter? :lol: Mr. Jones? :D

I lacked one to put you all in, sorry to leave you out. But I guess I'll get another chance to make it up to you before this game is over. :D

I’m not sure we need two coastal cities. It’s not going to be easy to build the Colossus and the Lighthouse in the same city but building all the Ancient Age Wonders seems tough enough anyway with seven wonders in five cities.

This is the my current suggestion:

Second: Colossus + Lighthouse = 500 shields; 5cpt
Third: Pyramids = 400 shields; 4cpt
Fourth: Oracle + Great Wall = 500 shields; 6cpt
Fifth: Great Library = 400 shields; 6 cpt
First (backup): Hanging Gardens = 300 shields; 4 cpt

First is used as some kind of back-up, it already has some culture from the Palace, will get the earliest temple, but if we’re in danger of losing a wonder it will probably be the city to complete it fastest.

Of course temples are a priority right now and that the Great Wall will be timed to trigger the Golden Age.

Yndy, I agree with your point on building 'coastal wonders'.

I was actually thinking more of galleys: there will come a time when we want to build some ships and land a few units on another continent.
If we have a single coastal city, and she's busy with a wonder, we may have to wait quite some time.

Other than that, I think your plan looks good.

Good point Karasu,

I vote for the 2nd coastal city.


Ted

OK, here goes. Rename cities to First Attempt and Second Minute. Some better names would be appropriate.

2510BC 1A: Warrior -> Settler;
2470BC 2M: Worker -> Worker
2430BC 1A grows to size 4
2390BC ThreeCows founded: Temple *sorry for the lack of inspiration*. German border spotted.
2350BC 1A: Settler -> Warrior; Incense hooked. Settler sent towards city four. I'm not sure that we want to give 2 Bonus grasslands for 2 Incense hills. Do we?
2310BC Meet Germany. They already have IW but lack CB. We don't make the trade.
2270BC 1A: Warrior -> Temple;
2230BC 2M: Worker -> Temple;
2190BC Four Corners founded: Temple
2150BC Nothing. I tried to MM 1A to get one extra commerce as it grows anyway.
Famous Four for now (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ1-2150BC.SAV)

Good play.
It's good that Germany is there too -I was a bit worried that Spain would not be able to entertain us... ;)

Got it, hope to post in about 24 hours.

Does this "hope to" mean that you didn't manage to avoid being up in 7 SGs at the same time? ;)

Well, my games are in synch to a regrettable degree, but let's not throw around numbers like seven. That pinnacle is reserved for mad-bax alone. :D

I seem to be suffering the same thing :(


Ted

Since we got into the topic, I have been noting a strange, mindless force acting in my SGs too.

It started happening in a suspiciously consistent fashion, that people get skipped, busy or suddenly overefficient with their turns with the result that I am left with three to four saves to play between Friday night and Saturday morning... :confused:

We've just (2030 BC) discovered the Wheel, after earlier getting Iron Working and Alphabet in trades. (Our continent is full of iron and horses, no problems here.) Some discussion of our next tech target seems desirable.

The basic problem is that we can't make the deity-level assumption that our neighbours will do our research for us, especially since the Germans are already well off the pace. So, what tech do we want to be certain of having in forty turns? Mysticism, since (according to mad-bax) the Oracle tends to be the first Wonder to go? Masonry, since industrious civs can work on the Pyramids from the beginning of the game? Writing, on grounds of general importance?

I incline towards Mysticism, but very slightly; I really don't know. Those of you who roll out of bed around this time and immediately log on to CFC ;) are welcome to let me know what you think.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
Those of you who roll out of bed around this time and immediately log on to CFC ...

How well you know us (or me anyway)... is it that obvious? :lol:

Tough call on the tech. Maybe we should let the cultural value of the associated wonder be the deciding factor. I have to wake up a little more before I can give a coherent opinion.

Yawns, tries invain to open his eyes...
Doesn't need them to log on CFC anyway

In our situation, I'd prefer a wonder-enabling tech rather than Writing.
Based on our renown skill in managing prebuilds, I would go for the tech we can get to in the shortest time (assuming we are not forced to 40-turns research).
If we can't run "max" science, then Mysticism is probably better, as there will be a chance to trade it for Masonry later on.

Gives up trying to open his eyes and falls asleep on his desk. It's Friday, after all...

I would chooes Writing or Mysticism on the basis that we'll, hopefully, be able pick up Masonry in the trading.

In a normal game I'd choose Writing almost every time but this is a slightly different situation.

Looking at the tech tree I realise why I normally choose Writing. It opens up both Literature & Map Making :)

Our problem would seem to be that we need more contacts to trade techs so I'll stick with Writing.


Ted

2150 (0): There are various tech trades we can make; the question is how to do it while speeding up the overall tech rate as little as possible. I decide to try to get Iron Working and Alphabet in a way which denies the Germans any new techs, since they're a scientific civ. We'll have to accept the transfer of one tech to the Spanish for the sake of the twofer. So, we buy Iron Working from the Germans for 143 gold and 8 gpt, paying 81 gold more than would have been necessary had we included Ceremonial Burial. We then send Iron Working to the Spanish for Alphabet and 27 gold.

Four sources of iron appear. The only one already under our control is right beneath Four Corners, which is rather a waste, though no one's fault.


2110 (1): First Attempt temple --> settler.


2070 (2): We discover the Wheel. Seven horses appear, three of which will be within our city radii and one more of which will be within our cultural boundaries. I re-name Four Corners Fourth Horseman.


2030 (3): I choose Mysticism as our next tech target, since it seems to be everyone's first or second choice. I take Ted's point about Writing as the gateway to Map Making and Literature; but since this is a game at regent, our demanding victory condition aside, I hope we won't have to beeline to these techs to get the GL and the GL. ;) Also, given that we don't have Masonry and the palace prebuild yet, I don't like the idea of a choice that would give us neither a new Wonder to build nor a good prebuild.


1990 (4): Not much.


1950 (5): First Attempt settler --> warrior.


1910 (6): Three Cows temple --> Colossus.


1870 (7): First Attempt warrior --> worker.


1830 (8): Zzzz....


1790 (9): I found Fifth Wheel on the agreed site in the east, and it begins its temple.

First Attempt worker --> spearman, strictly as a Gallic Swordsman prebuild.

Second Minute temple --> worker.


1750 (10): Barring some really odd geographical quirk, we're alone on our continent with the Germans and the Spanish.

The Germans still don't have Ceremonial Burial or Alphabet, so we could pick up some cash from them if it seems acceptable (or even desirable?) to help them out technologically. Using the gold we could acquire this way to fund more radical deficit research than we're already doing might well be the right idea.

To repeat, the spearman under construction in First Attempt is a GS prebuild.

If one of our neighbours doesn't produce Masonry shortly, our lack of this and hence of the palace prebuild will become a real inconvenience.

The situation now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1750BC.JPG

I've had coffee now and thought about it some more. It boils down to an informed guess on what the AI is likely to research. If it is true the Oracle is built first some AI is likely to research Myst. With an appriopiate pre-build we could still get that one first. For us to broaden our options we need more contacts, so... I'm with TJ on this one. We can't go without writing.

Because the AI will be able to expand freely at least in the first part of the game I think we can make the assumption that they *will* help in the research, at least in the first 2 ages. That said, I think we can't afford min research.

edit: seems I took too long waking up today...

The save:

1750 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1750BC.zip)


Edit: Sorry, Space, I played before your final verdict came in. We can in fact research at far better than the forty-turn rate, so the decision wasn't really as consequential as I thought when I solicited opinions. To some extent I was making assumptions deriving from deity play.

Yes, I figured as much. This game really makes us think again of little bits of 'automated' play. I like it a lot actually, for two reasons: I makes the game really different from others and it exposes what things are part of that 'automated' play.

Ok, mates, just remember not to play too well, or TJ will start complaining that this game was too easy... ;)

I am not too sure the AI will help us a lot with tech progress. We should get Masonry from our neighbours, and possibly one-two more AA techs if we are lucky with contacts and with our choice of the research path.
But if our cities grow large enough in the meantime, and our GA kicks in, I wouldn't count on the AI any more beyond that point (with the possible exception of Germany's bonus tech as we reach the Middle Ages).

Besides, we don't want them to progress too fast, do we...

Based on AI production preferences, Spain should be researching Masonry right now with 5-20 turns to go. Also Germany should be researching CB which we can test by offering CB again (previous price of CB was 81g). If yes, we’d better sell it to them.

I’m also afraid to be overwhelmed by the low research speed of the AI. I suggest we get Mysticism, start a Pyramids prebuild with the Oracle in Second Minute, change to Oracle, Pyramids and a Palace prebuild when we get Mysticism and go for max research towards Writing and Lit in the mean time. The Palace pre-build should then change to the Great Library and a prebuild be initiated for Lighthouse or Hanging Gardens after all the libraries are built.

Got it

Good progress everybody :thumbsup:

Play tomorrow.


Ted

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Pre-turn
I turn the wick up under the Scientists. At 100% we get Mysticism in 6 turns @ -12gpt. We have just enough in the treasury to cover that so that's the ticket.
Switch First Attempt to Sword - cheaper and upgrades to our UU
Bismarck only offers 60GP for CB so:
Sell CB to Germany for 75gp

Press button
Zzz...

1 - 1725BC
Worker (ESE FA) road
Warrior fort FW
Warrior (SSW FH) N
Warrior (2SE Leipzig) SW
Warrior (N Seville) NW
Warrior (Far West) N
No trades available

IBT
FA Warrior - Worker
FH Temple - Barracks

2 - 1700BC
Worker (SW FH) road - SW (Horse)
Warrior (SW FH) NE, fort
Warrior fort FA
Worker (NE TC) irrigate - road
Warrior (SSE Leipzig) W
Warrior (NNW Seville) NW
Warrior (Far West) NE
Bismarck offers 160gp for Alphabet (marker)

3 - 1675BC
Worker (2SW FH) road
Warrior (Northern) W
Warrior (Southern) N
Warrior (Western) NE
Bismarck still offers 160 for Alphabet :)

IBT
FA Worker - Gallic Sword (8 turns)
SM Worker - Barracks

4 - 1650BC
Worker (SM) NE, N (heading to mine Horse)
Worker (FA) SE, E (joins Worker roading)
Warrior (Northern) W
Warrior (Southern) N (mountain)
Warrior (Western) E
Research 80% (still 2 turns @ -9gpt, 106gp in the kitty)
Bismarck still offers 160gp for Alphabet so is definitely researching something else

5 - 1625BC
Worker (ESE FA) road
Warrior (Northern) NW
Worker (NE TC) road - SE (Cow)
Worker (SSW TC) NE, mine
Warrior (Western) N
Warrior (Southern) N
Research 70% (1 turn @ -7gpt)
No trades available

IBT
Discover Mysticism - Writing

6 - 1600BC
Worker (2SW FH) road - mine
Worker (ESE FA) road - NW
Worker (ESE FA) road - E
Worker (E TC) road
Warrior (Northern) NW
Warrior (Western) NE
Warrior (Southern) NW
Research 100% (13 turns @ -13gpt, 90 in the bank)
No trades

7 - 1575BC
Worker (E FA) mine
Worker (W FW) chop forest (speed Barracks after Temple)
Warrior (Northern) NW
Warrior (Western) NW
Warrior (Southern) NW

IBT
SM Barracks - Worker

8 - 1550BC
Warrior (Northern) NW
Warrior (Western) NW
Warrior (Southern) NW

IBT
FH Barracks - Gallic Sword

9 - 1525BC
Worker (E TC) road - irrigate
Warrior (Northern) NW
Warrior (Western) N
Warrior (Southern) NW

IBT
SM Worker - Gallic Sword

10 - 1500BC
Worker (SM) SE, E, mine
Warrior (Northern) N
Warrior (Western) W
Warrior (Southern) NW

Notes
First Attempt can start on Colossus next turn.
Second Minute is set to start a Gallic Sword but could be swapped to a Palace pre-build.
The Worker West of Fifth Wheel is chopping not roading in case the next player wants to leave it unconnected.
Research is set to 100% (Writing due in 8 @ -7gpt) but we only have 35gp in the bank so keep an eye on it :)

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1500BC.zip). No screenshot as little has changed.


Ted

Good going, Ted. Smart on the German science thing. :goodjob:
I take it you mean FA can start the Pyramids (Colossus is kinda hard inland... ;) ).

Surely he and you meant the Oracle ;).
We do not have masonry yet.

Quite right Yndy :)


Ted

No, no, I meant the Pyramids. He just *knows* the next player can get this tech from an AI and ... errrm ...

Remember guys....I'm on auto skip untill the middle of November. I did warn Ted about this, that's why I've been a bit quiet in this game. :)

Thanks for the reminder MB

Over to you Space :)


Ted

Got it. Don't know if I can play tomorrow though. MB2 took most of today, and I do ocassionaly need to do some other things too. :eek: :)

Goals:
Explore.
Get techs ASAP.

Pre-turn
We're in good shape.

IT
First Attempt Gallic -> Pyram.. Oracle

1475BC - turn 1
Irrigate near Second Minute.
No new techs available.

IT
Fifth Wheel Temple -> Rax

1450BC - turn 2
Spain has a worker available, but we can't afford it now. Later slaves will be preferable because they cost no upkeep.

IT
Zzzz

1425BC - turn 3
First Attempt has a new citizen, the happiness situation is fine.
I can move the slider back to (1.9.0) to still get Writing in 4 turns (-5gpt 13 in the box)
We'll road the new tile, maybe we can just make it.
Spain has Writing :(, she still has no contact with Germany. I decide to not sell contact and hope we can get some money back from Germany.

IT
The Spanish warrior is still far away from Germany. :)

1400BC - turn 4
Germany has HBR, this opens up possibilities, but is not really helpful.
Move slider back to (2.8.0) for -4gpt and 8 in the treasury.
MM to get -3 gpt.

IT
Zzzz

1375BC - turn 5
Spain and Germany haven't met yet.
5 gold in treasury at -3gpt, writing in 2.

IT
Zzzz

1350BC - turn 6
Two roads finish, we made it! Move slider to (4.6.0) 3 gold in treasure at +3gpt, Writing next turn.
They haven't met...

IT
Writing comes in, what to research next? We still lack Pottery, so we can't start MM. :( We really need Masonry, but Lit seems a good choice too. Finally I decide on Masonry and hope one of the 2 others will do Pottery, so we can start MM next. We need to get off this smallish island and meet some others.
We have no money for embassies yet, no need either.
Fifth Wheel Rax -> Warrior

1325BC - turn 7
Sell contact and Alphabet to Germany for HBR and 92 gold, because it's only a matter of time before they meet, neither has Myst. Germay has some money left, but I doubt that it'll be enough to buy writing.
Slider goes to (3.7.0) for Masonry in 6 at 1gpt, 98g in the box.

IT
Zzz

1300BC - turn 8
Germany did buy Writing, for 37g... :eek:

IT
Second Minute Gallic -> Horseman

1275BC - turn 9
We need to make a colony on one of the gems soon. I think the ones int the west in the mountains is the best spot, the ultimate spot to take all the gems in the jungle should be guarded by a spare Warrior.
Send Blank there.

IT
:sleep:

1250BC - turn 10
Nothing much to tell, 2 turns left on Masonry at (1.9.0) and -6gpt. We can switch some build then, if nescessary.

Blank should go here:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1250BC.JPG

--------------> The save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1250BC.zip)

Steady progress Space :thumbsup:

Let's hope that Spain or Germany come up with Pottery soon.

The camera pans to Karasu and zooms in... you're up :)


Ted

...and here I come. Got it.

Space: Pike --> Pike's Peak --> Summit? :rotfl:

I think we should research Literacy next, whatever the competing attractions. It's possible that we're undervaluing quick construction of the standard cultural buildings relative to Wonders, and it seems to me that our cities badly need their libraries.

I agree with this. My feeling is that all the standard cultural buildings should be built on the turn they are availbale where possible. They have the highest culture/shield ratio anyway.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
Space: Pike --> Pike's Peak --> Summit? :rotfl:


Glad you like it. :)

I agree on the libraries, if we need to do our own research, we can't do without them.

Pre-turn
Change Warrior in Fifth to Settler, as a prebuild for a horseman.

Looks like First is already leaving the other cities behind in culture.

And let's go.


Turn 1 - 1225 BC
Fourth: Gallic - Horseman
Renegotiate peace with Otto for his 55 gold (all he has).

Hey, look where the Spanish founded Toledo...
We need to do something with them. I'll start sending a couple of GS down. Upgrade one warrior to Gallic for 80 gold :eek:


Turn 2 - 1200 BC
We get Masonry. Start Literature at 80% science, -1 gpt, due in 13 (can increase it later on).
Trade it for Pottery + 37 gp (all she has) with Isabella... :hmm: I think I blew this one, I should have waited a while before trading techs. Now she will be able to start the Pyramids. It's true that we need money, but we would have got it anyway.

Otto has nothing to give, and is cautious (maybe because he realized he has no Iron?)
Need to increase lux to 10% to avoid riots in First. -4 gpt


Turn 3 - 1175 BC
Second: Horseman - horseman


Turn 6 - 1100 BC
Fourth: Horseman - horseman


Turn 7 - 1075 BC
Fifth: horseman - Palace (veto freely)

Raise science to 90%. Literature due in 5, -12 gpt (we have 74 in the treasury)


Turn 8 - 1050 BC
Second: Horseman - Pyramids


Turn 9 - 1025 BC
Colossus in Three Cows. Start Barracks


Turn 10 - 1000 BC
The Spanish have started the Pyramids (QED...).
I am tempted to establish an embassy with Spain to check their progress, but I'll leave it to the next leader as we are a bit short of money and we may want to wait.
Madrid is at size 1 though, and both Seville and Barcelona at 2.

Literature due in two turns now at -5 gpt or in three at +3.

We can still switch the Oracle to Pyramids, or simply capture Madrid before they complete the wonder.
In fact, there are some good reasons to launch a small attack on Spain:
1. It's a nice diversion
2. We have a small force of four Horsemen that should be enough to raze Toledo without having to resort to Gallic Swordsmen.
3. If Madrid is building the Pyramids, the Spanish are not going to be able to build a significant army any time soon...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Image116.jpg


The Five Famous (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01_BC1000.zip)

Nice :)

A horseman only war is a good idea IMO. We need to do two things to get all the wonders I think. Generate leaders and prevent cascades. Cascades can be prevented by timing wonder builds to finish on the same turn. There is only one way to get leaders. The sooner we start, the better. Every leader built wonder is 300 - 1000 shields saved, allowing us to build more units and generate more leaders.

I know this is just a statement of the obvious, I just wanted to caution against having too many cities tied up in wonder builds. In my view military should be the priority, followed closely by cultural buildings, with wonders a poor third.

My longer view is that once we get to republic we should aim to be in an oscillating war pattern with all the AI to prevent them from getting too much culture, and we should be keeping an eye on where wonders are being built and aim as a matter of principle to raze those cities.

Remember, all we need to do is get each city to 35cpt by 1400AD and we're done. Stated like that it sounds doable. I might try to work out which wonders we will need to achieve this and when the corresponding techs need to be learned by.

Bye, bye Toledo :)

Some elite Horse would be nice too...

and the baton passes to Yndy. You're up.


Ted
edited for spelling :o

Of course, feel free to veto the prebuilds.
With Three having completed its task, and First almost done, I felt like we could afford to start prebuilding in a couple of cities. This does not mean that a horseman or two cannot be squeezed in... ;)

Let's note however that First is already well ahead in culture, so we won't have almost anything to build there but units in the next several turns...

Originally posted by mad-bax


Remember, all we need to do is get each city to 35cpt by 1400AD and we're done.


Can this be right, though? :confused: Each of our cities has to accumulate 20,000 cultural points, and there are 540 turns in the game. 20,000/540 = a little over 37. So each city has to average 37 cpt for the whole game, which is a much more demanding standard than 35 cpt from the midpoint on. This assumption might work if our cities were going to reach 35 cpt with all the thousand-year cultural doubling still to come, but that can't happen. So the situation seems to me, anyway--am I overlooking something here?

First thing I'll do is switch all cities to libraries as soon as they become available. Then initiate at least one other wonder and build some figthing units as well. I'm not worried about Madrid building the Pyramids though. It will take them at least 50 turns and I guess they will never see it finished.

Edit: Bad grammar, I couldn't understand myself

NP. By 35cpt I mean base culture points b4 doubling. And yes it is correct as a rule of thumb.

975BC: Waiting for Literature
950BC: Discover Literature. Research Mapmaking due in 21 turns. Switch builds to Libraries
925BC: Nothing
900BC: Still nothing
875BC: Building road towards Toledo and the Gems.
850BC: First Attempt builds the Oracle. Now focusing on a Library. Can drop lux tax to 10%
825BC: Second Minute: Library -> Pyramids due in 40 turns. Move our horses near Toledo.
800BC: Three Cows: Library -> Palace (Lighthouse prebuild). Declare war to Spain. Attack Toledo with 4 Horsemen. Lose one and raze Toledo. Increase pace of research to 60%. Mapmaking due in 8 breaking even on income
775BC: Fourth Horseman: Library -> Horseman.
750BC: Fifth Wheel: Library -> Horseman.

I also started a 20K calculator Excel file (the one developed by SirPleb) with five sheets.
Link to save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01_BC750.SAV)
Link to 20K calculator (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ-calc.zip)

Nice strike on Toledo :)

The wheel turns and settles on Northern Pike. You're up.


Ted

Originally posted by Yndy
... I couldn't understand myself


:lol: That happens to me too a number of times a day... :lol:

And well done with Toledo, seeing that town there was really disturbing. Are we proceeding on to Madrid?
(I had the idea shaping up in my mind that we would erase Spain and use Germany as our punching bag...).

BTW, it's good to see that we have another volunteer for the hard task of keeping track of culture points... what do you think, Space? ;)

Got it. Looks good, Yndy.

Mad-bax, thanks for clarifying that it's a question of 35 undoubled cpt in each city by 1400. But this is somewhat daunting to hear, since 5 x 35 cpt = 175 cpt, and by my quick calculation only 187 undoubled cpt are going to be available to us in the whole game. (80 for 6 cultural buildings worth a total of 16 cpt in each of 5 cities; 1 for the palace; 13 for Small Wonders other than the FP and the IW; and 93 for all 25 Wonders). The 5 or 6 2-cpt Wonders that we can afford not to get, on this analysis, don't represent much leeway. We'll have to hope that the approximation of considering only undoubled cpt makes our task look harder than it really is.

In any event, we clearly can't make the numbers work out without research labs and the Modern Age Wonders, so a crucial question arises: when can we expect to reach the MA at regent, with only five cities, driving the tech pace all by ourselves? Does anyone, player or lurker, have an informed opinion?

If you also consider that we have to time them all for the same date, putting one wonder in the wrong city could completely ruin our day. This is why I advocate building the culture improvements as early as we can so that we benefit from doubling for longer.
Also notice that wonders only count for half the total available culture.

Did you include the Internet in your numbers?

Originally posted by Yndy
[B]I also started a 20K calculator Excel file (the one developed by SirPleb) with five sheets.

:worship: Thank you! ;)

@NP: Yes, it *is* a very ambitious goal, all the more reason to try it, wouldn't you say? :D

Has anybody looked at the available luxes on our smallish continent? Will that be remotely enough to keep our people happy and Marketplaces effective enough? I didn't have much time the last days.

Mad-bax, I worked right from the PTW 1.27 Civilopedia--so yes, those unforgiving numbers include the Internet's contribution.

Space, I wish you hadn't asked. There are only three luxuries on our continent. :(

I intend to research Polytheism next, since the path to Monarchy is only two techs long and also gets us to the Hanging Gardens, while the path to Republic is three long and leads to nothing but the new form of government. As a religious civ we can go into monarchy and then republic, of course, and this way of doing it will bring us more quickly to the point at which we can use our Gallics without triggering a despotic GA. But anyone who thinks this is wrong has several hours to argue against it before I play--I promise, Space. ;)

Thank you, NP, but I am awake now (or should be anyway...). Now the only thing I have to do is think of a good argument, which is going to be hard. In other words I totally agree on the Monarchy-first-Republic-later strategy.

Just for a bit of variety here's the Excel Culture Calculator I modded for this game from AlanH's original. It includes a handy summary page with culture points at 50 year intervals so that you can easily see the differences between all five cities.

Get it > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-AlanH-summary-BC750.zip)

Good plan NP.


Ted

Nice one, Ted. :thumbsup:

I agree with NP's plan. Hanging gardens is a must have and one of the wonders I would set out to build (along with the GL).

A GA in monarchy would be OK and we could build a lot of our UU to generate 2 or three leaders (hopefully) for the wonder rush at the beginning of the MA.

We were always going to have problems with luxes, but we should be able to buy them. I'm more worried about resources. We won't have oil anywhere near us I imagine.

Do airfields act as a port? In other words if we built an airfield on an oil resource on another continent would that make oil available to us?

Originally posted by mad-bax
Do airfields act as a port? In other words if we built an airfield on an oil resource on another continent would that make oil available to us? I'm not sure about this but I think the answer is no.

I'll do a test and post the results.


Ted

I don't think either. Besides, it will be hard to keep a colony on the other continent.
Looks like we will have to be careful with our fighting in the future...

I tried it and the answer is no. I think it's because an airfield is a worker task rather than an improvement.


Ted

So, the conclusion should be: leave cities that connect luxes be, in order to let the AI be able to trade it to us.... We'll be dependant on their harbours too. :eek:

Oh, Yeah.

We probably need to select a small, backwards civ as our trading partner, RoP and protect them and gift them a few strategically placed cities for them to trade Resources and Luxes with us.
We would lovingly protect them with our units and gracefully raze all their towns that we don't need... :hmm:

Re: Tech research

we're going to have to research by ourselves. We might want ot keep an AI or two strong enough to research some techs but basically we'll be doing all the research.

I feel that at this stage we will need to alternate between fast research and slowing down the pace. For example even if we had Monarchy right now we couldn't start building Hanging Gardens.

Remember, our plan for the cities:
ThreeCows will switch to Lighthouse;
SecondMinute is tied on Pyramids;
First Attempt will build units for a long time as it has decent culture already;
Fourth Horseman cannot grow above 6 so we won't start any wonder there but build units, galleys and workers from time to time. If we get a leader it should build a wonder here.
Fifth Wheel will initiate a second wonder build soon.

The War with the Spaniards is to be a limited war for now. I am picking on the units they send towards us but we only have three horsemen.

750 (0): I'm not going to advance on an enemy capital with a total strike force of three horsemen, even at regent. I'll have First Attempt produce four horsemen after it completes its library, so that Ted will have a good range of options.

Fifth Wheel begins the Great Library.


730 (1): First Attempt library --> horseman.

A Spanish settler/warrior team appears near the gems, delaying the foundation of our gems colony. The settler will probably found a city before we can destroy it for the two workers, too.


710 (2): The Spanish warrior between First Attempt and Madrid moves onto grassland, and we pick it off with a horseman, getting a promotion to elite.

The Spanish found Murcia near the jungle gems.

The Germans demand Pottery. We could undoubtedly manage a two-front war, but it would probably require us to use our Gallics and trigger our GA too early. We give in.

Fourth Horseman horseman --> prebuild for galley.


690 (3): First Attempt horseman --> horseman.


670 (4): We auto-raze Murcia, held by one regular warrior, but we lose a horseman doing so.

We discover Map Making and begin research on Polytheism.

Three Cows switches to Great Lighthouse.


650 (5): FA horse --> horse.

The Germans start the Pyramids in Berlin.


630 (6): We found our gems colony, and I'm able to cut the luxury rate to 10%.

Fourth Horseman galley --> galley.


610 (7): FA horse --> horse.


590 (8): Zzzz....


570 (9): The Spaniards sue for peace, and would give us Code of Laws. We decline.

FA horse --> horse.


550 (10): We have five horsemen fairly close to Madrid, with another on the way. Apart from the one warrior we picked off early in the round, the Spaniards allowed us no shots at units outside their cities, unfortunately.

We aren't really in the lead technologically. We're ahead of the Spanish and Germans by Literature, but they're ahead of us by Code of Laws.

We should peel a worker off Fourth Horseman after it completes the galley it's now building.

Over to you, Ted.

The save:

550 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-550BC.zip)

Recent developments:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-550BC.JPG

:goodjob:

It seems that our Gems colony will soon be completely surrounded with Spanish ruins...

Got it

I guess I'll continue the brush war with Spain in the hopes of getting a GL :)


Ted

... and soon Mr Jones will be exploring the waters. I looks like our coastal cities are not too suitably sited for quick exploration. Exciting prospect though, to finally be able to get off the continent and see how the others are doing. :)

TJ01-550BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

FA needs another mined grass on river
FH needs another mined grass
FW needs BGs developing

Pre-turn
Sell WM to Germany for WM + 10gp

Press button
FH Galley - Worker

1 - 530BC
Western Hope (Galley, FH) sets sail for the West
SoD splits into two groups
Group 1 (2 Horse, 1 Warrior) moves to NNE Madrid & pillages mine & road)
Group 2 (3 vet Horse) S (mountain 2 NE Madrid)
Alice (Worker, SSW FW) mine - NE (Horse)
Eastern Promise (Galley, 2NW Munich) sails round the coast Eastward
Research 60% (3 turns @ -5gpt, 114gp in the Bank)
Looks as if we can support a population of nine at the moment (3h, 3c, 3u) apart from TC which can support ten.

IBT
FA Horse - Horse

2 - 510BC
Horse (FA) 3SW
Betty (Worker, 2NW SM) mine - 3SE (heading for FA)
Alice road (S FW)
Groups 1 & 2 combine N Madrid
Vet Horse vs reg Spear - victory & promotion
Vet Horse vs reg Spear - victory
Madrid razed - we get 1 slave
Susan (Slave) N, NE (with a detatchment of 2 Horse)
Eastern Promise sails East
Western Hope sails West
I think I'll attack Barcelona (Spain's new capital and plant a colony on the Silks then make peace with Spain. When the 20 turns are up then we can finish them off. In the meantime we can turn our attention to Germany :)

IBT
FH Worker - Horse

3 - 490BC
Workers (NNW FH) mine - road
Carol (Worker, FH) joins the Road Gang
Harvest Moon (SSE TC) irrigate - moves to S SM
Betty 3E
Spanish Expeditionary Force joins up NNW of the ruins of Madrid
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East
Sell WM to Germany for WM + 1gp
Research 40% (1 turn @ +7gpt, 105gp in the Bank)

IBT
Discover Polytheism - Monarchy
FA Horse - Horse

4 - 470BC
Horse (FA) to FH (prep for attack on Germany
Betty (NNW FA) S
Harvest Moon (SE SM) E, SE
Carol road
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East
Research 60% (14 turns @ - 8gpt, 112 in the Bank)
Sell WM to Germany for WM + 1gp
We have our first three cities in the top 5.

5 - 450BC
Harvest Moon (2NW FA) road
Betty (NW FA) road
Alice (S FW) road - mine
Spanish Expeditionary Force heals before assault on Barcelona
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East

IBT
FA Horse - Horse
I miscalculated max pop sizes :)
FH Horse - Horse
The people admire me - I add some steps
Paris (France) completes the Pyramids :(

6 - 430BC
Road Gang (NNE FH) 2S, SE (heading for BG NNE FW
Green Leaves (ENE TC) mine - road
Horse (FA) SW (close trap around Spanish Warrior)
SEF arrive SE of Barcelona (assault next turn
FW switches to Palace pre-build (Hanging Gardens)
SM switches to Great Library
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East
Research 50% (14 turns @ -4gpt, 98gp in the Bank) - FW still has 16 turns on Palace pre-build
Sell WM to Germany for WM + 1gp

7 - 410BC
Vet Horse vs reg Warrior (WSW FA) - victory & promotion (3/5)
Assault on Barcelona:
Elite Horse vs reg Spear - victory (3/5)
Elite Horse vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Horse vs reg Spear - victory
Barcelona autorazed - we get 1gp & 2 Slaves
Slave builds colony on Silks
Warrior fort Silk Colony
Slaves start road home
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East
Make peace with Spain for WM, CoL + 13gp (broke)
Sell WM to Germany for WM + 1gp

IBT
FA Horse - Horse

8 - 390BC
Horse (FA) to SE FW (W of German Settler/Spear)
Betty (NW FA) road - mine
Road Gang S (BG)
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East

IBT
FH Horse - Worker (zero growth)
Spain starts Great Lighthouse

9 - 370BC
Loose Horses head SW to protect our Silks Colony
Road Gang (NNE FW) mine
Green Leaves (ENE TC) road - 3SW
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East

IBT
FA Horse - Horse
FH Worker - Horse

10 - 350BC
Diane (Worker, FH) 2SW, s
Green Leaves 3SW
Western Hope sails West
Eastern Promise sails East

Our Core
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-350BC-Core.jpg

Silks Colony
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-350BC-Silks.jpg

Notes
The loss of the Pyramids was a blow but we'll just have to grin & bear it.
I moved the Great Library to Two Cows.
The Great Lighthouse is due in 5 turns and our Galleys are nearing jump off points.
The Silks Colony could do with more units surrounding it to prevent any Spanish Settlers setting up shop close by
There are 5 Horse near Fifth Wheel if the next player wants to have a go at Germany - probably a good idea as they're starting to grow now.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-350BC.zip) and the updated spreadsheet is > there < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-summary-BC350.zip)

As mad-bax is still on hold it's over to Space. You're up.


Ted

Got it. Nice job, TJ! Looks like Spain won't bother us for a while. :) I'll take a look at the save later and post some thoughts.

In spite of loosing the Pyramids, I think we are looking good. We couldn't assume we would grab all AA wonders anyway...

Watch out with Germany, as they have horses too. It may be wise to remove any Gallic from the border area and put there a few Spears instead. Maybe even on the mountain range NE of FH.

BTW, Alice, Betty, Carol, Diana... :lol:

Originally posted by Karasu
BTW, Alice, Betty, Carol, Diana... :lol: Believe it or not but it actually helps me keep track of who's doing what and where they should move next :D


Ted

I feel sorry about those Pyramids. I guess our only shot would have been to build them in First Attempt but then we would have lost the Oracle, which gives more culture.

The consequence will be that one city will lag but we should be OK.

One thing that I’m thinking now that we lost one wonder is, if we get a leader shouldn’t we build an army and then an early Heroic Epic? That would help us towards more great leaders and give us a decent amount of culture.

Heroic Epic would be a great idea and an army is never a bad thing to have around :)


Ted

Looked at the save and here are some thoughts:

on the war against Germany: while it is true they can build Horseys, there's only 1 city that can and it is size 1... :D Eastern defense is not very strong so we need to be careful, I will get some forces from the west before I attack. The main focus is leaders, since no new techs are known.

on the galleys: I always have very bad luck with suicide galleys, I don't want to subject you guys to it, so I'll wait for the GL to complete first. If you don't agree please say so; officially luck can't be predicted.. :p

on leaders: I agree HE is important in this game, the earlier we build it, the better.

on workers: we definitely need some male workers walking around to help us through the ages, lest workers as a species become extinct. :)

Sounds like a plan Space.

Not sure about the male workers though :D


Ted

Double post. Forum playing silly buggers again :)


Ted

Space, by all means wait for the Great Lighthouse. With our coastal cities where they are it takes forever to get our galleys into position to discover anything useful, so we shouldn't take risks with them.

turnlog TJ01 - 350BC

goals:
Find new neighbours.
Move troops east.
Try to trim Germany a bit and get some Elite wins in.

preturn:
Looking good :thumbsup:
Move Elite Horseman in First Attempt south to German settler trio.

IT:
The German warrior from the trio move into our lands.

330BC - turn 1:
Move troops to Cologne, I want to de-link the German cities.
Hmm, I can't force the Germans to declare if they don't leave.
Fifth Wheel will complete the Palace in 9 turns and will be too quick for Monarchy to arrive, I'll need to MM production down. :eek:

IT:
The German Warrior leaves. :(
The German settler pair moves to the Gems.
First Attempt Horseman -> Horseman

310BC - turn 2:
Sell WM to Germany for WM+4g, Spain is broke.
Move Horses around to prevent the German settler to ruin our colony.

IT:
The settler pair is on it's way to the river.

290BC - turn 3:
Move the troops in such a way that we'll 3 Vet and 1 Elite Horse to destroy the new German city and 3 Vet Horse to take on Cologne, more troops are on their way. Next turn will see WAR. :evil:

IT:
First Attempt Horseman -> Horseman
Fourth Horseman Horseman -> Harbor
The people offer us nice pathways to our Palace.

270BC - turn 4:
Secons Minute is about to riot. Moving up the lux slider is more expensive than a taxman. It'll mean 2

turns more on the Great Library though, tough choice, but the Hanging gardens will make the difference soon.
I really would like to use the Elite forces so I'll wait one more turn before attacking. There is a Galley in German territory too, it'll have to move first.
Spain has Math, she'll give it up for Poly, hmmm. Since Monarchy is only 6 turns away, I make the deal.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-270BC.JPG

IT:
Three Cows completes the Great Lighthouse -> Harvor
The German settler keeps moving, because of the jungle I can't catch up. :(

250BC - turn 5:
Now what is that Spanish Archer doing next to our Warrior defended colony?
We have a nice stack near Germany now, patience pays off.
Spain has sold Poly to Germany, but not Math.
Sell WM for WM+3g each to Germany and Spain.

IT:
The German settler keeps moving, aha, I get it now, the Germans want the Iron too. :)
The Spanish Archer is just scouting.
First Attempt Horseman -> Catapult

230BC - turn 6:
The workers start roading out.
Sell WM for WM+2g each to Germany and Spain.
I think we can now shave of a turn from Monarchy and the Hanging Gardens, now due in 3 and 4 turns respectively.

IT:
Germany has an Archer nearish Fourth Horseman, move two Horseman there for offensive defence.

210BC - turn 7:
Sequence is important here, the Plan: 1. move boats, 2. sell WMs, 3. declare Germany
Sell WM for WM+1g each to Germany and Spain.
Declare war on Germany.
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear (on settler) - wins losing 1 hp.
Capture worker near Cologne.
There are 6 units near Cologne, 3 near Nuremberg.

IT:
German Archer moves away!
FA Catapult -> Horseman

190BC - turn 8:
Move slider back for Monarchy in 1 @ -17gpt and 19g in the coffer.
Battle for Nuremberg:
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear - retreats leaving no marks
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear - retreats too
4/4 Horse vs 2/3 Spear - Nuremberg is autorazed, Horse promotes to Elite! :)

Battle for Cologne:
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear - Horse is killed :(
5/5 Horse vs 2/3 Spear - Cologne is autorazed, Horse has 2/5 left.

IT:
Germany moves a galley near Three Cows, and a pair of Archer/Settler near the Horses defending FH.
Monarchy comes in, start Currency
Three Cows Harbor -> Rax
Fourth Horseman Harbor -> Galley

170BC - turn 9:
Change production of Fifth Wheel from Palace to Hanging Gardens, due in 1, no shield loss. :)
A stray German Warrior threathens the workers connecting the Silk colony:
5/5 Horse vs 3/3 Warrior - wins, 2/5 left.
Move the slider to (6.3.1) for Currency in 18 @ +1gpt, 3g in the bank.
We will revolt after the HG comes in.

Battle for Frankfurt:
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear - Wins, promotes, 2/5 left.
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear - wins, promotes, 4/5 left.
Frankfurt is manually razed.

Settler pair in mountains:
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Archer - retreats.
4/4 Horse vs 2/3 Archer - is killed, promoting the Archer. :(

Move Ted from Second minute, to help defend *if* Germany lands troops, so the Gallic will hopefully not be needed. The taxman is temp changed into an entertainer.

IT:
FA Horseman -> Horseman
No troops emerge from the German Galley.

150BC - turn 10:
Start a Palace prebuild in Fourth Horseman, it will lag easily and will have to be carefully monitored.
The entertainer in SM is fired so the Great Library is now due in 4 turns.

I'll leave the revolution to the next player, we are religious, so no problems there.

The current culture situation:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-Culture-150BC.JPG

--------------> the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-150BC.zip)

Looking set for a nice little war there Space :) :goodjob:

The balls rolls gently across the field and comes to rest at the feet of Karasu. You're up.


Ted

Nice :hammer:, Space.

We haven't invested much time in Currency yet, so should we perhaps switch to Construction? I would say that the Great Wall and Fourth Horseman's aqueduct, taken together, probably outweigh marketplaces at the moment. The Great Wall looks very important now that we've been beaten to the Pyramids. I don't think we can succeed if we lose six of our 12 cpt of leeway in the Ancient Age alone.

I dunno, NP, we are very poor atm, also due to too many units I guess. I agree Construction is important too.

Can I make another comment, please?

Space, you know that Poly is one of the techs the AI doesn’t care much for. It would have been in our advantage never to trade it because the AI would have lagged in the Ancient Age for long without researching it. The gain we made towards math was limited and we could have afforded even to research it ourselves.

I also agree with NP’s point on Aqueduct in Fourth Horseman. I’d keep building horses/galleys there and prebuild the aqueduct at the right time.

Originally posted by Yndy
Can I make another comment, please?


Go ahead, all comments are welcome. :)

I know I have a tendency to trade too much (played too many games on warlord level I guess), but in this case I'm pretty sure the other two will never be in a position to really threaten us. And it doesn't look like easy contact (ie without suicide galleys) can be made with the other AI. So they will not be trading on a very short notice.

Got it.
I will probably play it tomorrow -now I've got to rush into a meeting...

Sorry for the rushed post. It's that I *am* a bit rushed right now...

Pre-turn
Everything ok. Let's start.


Turn 1 - 130 BC
Three Cows: Barracks - Catapult
Most horsemen are recovering. Move a few of them, cautiously explore with the Galleys. Nothing to report.


Turn 2 - 110 BC
First: Horseman - Wealth. It feels odd, but we can't afford any more units right now.

Elite Horseman attacks German Archer-Settler pair. Horse is redlined, Archer not even a scratch.
Second Elite Horse attacks. Looses two hps, kills Archer.

Galley movements reveal nothing.


Turn 3 - 90 BC
Three Cows: Catapult - Galley (I'll send one on suicide mission)
Fifth: Horseman - Wealth :eek: never done this in the BCs...

Elite horseman attacks wandering German warrior. Looses 3 hps but wins.

The German Galley landed a Settler-Spearmain pair in the jungle between Second and Santiago. I'll move a few horsemen in the area.


Turn 6 - 70 BC
Second: Great Library - Horseman

Two attacks, horseman vs warrior at the doors of Fourth. Two victories, one promotion to Elite.

We need to bring some irrigation to Fourth.


IT - Germany managed to build some horses. We are attacked by two, who kill our units.


Turn 7 - 50 BC
The two German horsemen are disposed of.
Oh, I almost didn't notice. Our Galley survived one turn in open seas. But it will have to face another one.


IT - Two more German Horsemen kill two Celtic ones. This is not funny. I will retreat and proceed accompanied by a couple defensive units.


Turn 8 - 30 BC
Three Cows: Galley - Horseman
The cities on Wealth are set to Spearman.

One Horseman is sent to disconnect Germany's horses.

This is almost unbeliavable. The Galley is still floating... But I picked the wrong sea. It's endless!

The second Galley takes advantage of a tongue of Sea waters and plunges into the ocean. Land is spotted, just out of reach... I can bet this one is not going to survive one turn...


IT - Quod Erat Demonstrandum. We know where someone is, at least. And the first Galley is still alive.
A Spanish Swordsman - Settler combo appears. Where did they get the Iron?


Turn 9 - 10 BC
Vet Horseman kills German Archer. Promoted.
Galley safely reaches a light blue spot. Wow...


Turn 10 - 10 AD
First: Horseman - Wealth
Second: Horseman - Horseman
Fifth: Spearman - Horseman

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ.jpg

I've been regrouping the units in the vicinity of Heidelburg.
There does not appear to be any road between Hamburg and Berlin, so that those Horsies were probably all they had to throw at us. A couple of Spearman are on their way, though, to avoid loosing other Horses.

I haven't headed against any German city yet, as I was waiting for their units to come. There have been a few Elite wins, but no leader.

The good news is we will have contact with a green civ next turn, and another border appears within reach.


The New World(s) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-AD10.zip)

New lands to explore :thumbsup:

The sun streams through the open window throwing Yndy into sharp relief. You're up.


Ted

Instead of building Wealth I suggest we build units and disband them. To take First Attempt as an example, its 17spt production brings 2gpt when on wealth. But it could also build a horse every 2 turns. That horse could be disbanded for 7 shields, so we get a production of 3.5spt which can be transferred to another city. Even if we could use the money to rush we couldn't have managed to rush 3,5 shields with 2 gold. On the other hand I suggest, and will implement, the disbanding of regular warrior units (bye-bye Mr. Jones, Bye Crow and Baxter, my dear friends).

You seem to neglect the calculator I attached ;), but I will update it anyway.
First Attempt: Predicted 20K ->2600 (turn 1090)
Second Minute: Predicted 20K ->2551 (turn 1041)
Three Cows: Predicted 20K ->2616 (turn 1106)
Fourth Horseman: Predicted 20K ->3605 (turn 2095) <- we've got to work hard on this one!
Fifth Wheel: Predicted 20K ->2747 (turn 1237)
We also have four spots in the top 5 cities with Paris on four.

Change First Attempt to Horseman, Fourth Horseman to Courthouse due in one. Also MM Fourth Horseman to get 2 more coins per turn instead of production. Also increase sci rate to 40%; Currency due in 6 with -6 gpt.
Contact Persia and give them our Territory Map and Mathematics for their World Map and 10gold. We clearly see the city of Liverpool but Persia does not have contact with England.

30AD: Three Cows: Horse-> Courthouse (Marketplace pre-build); Fourth Horseman: Courthouse -> Granary (Marketplace pre-build). Corw and Baxter are disbanded in Three Cows.
Elite horseman kills reg spear and razes Hannover. Persia just got Writing. That's why they didn't want to pay anything for it last turn. Since we can discover Currency in 5 turns I change everytown on Courthouse except First Attempt.

50AD: Our horse deep in the German lines resist to a horseman attack but is killed by an archer. One galley sets sail in a dangerous journey.

70AD: Galley survives and travels even further but we seem to be out of luck in that direction. Ted gets older and dies in his home town of Second Minute ;)

90AD: Unbelieveably the galley survives but still there's nothing to be found. Western Hope sails slowly towards the English settlement.

110AD: Do we have Navigation already? The lucky sail is christened Nerthern Gambler. It still finds nothing. Horseman attacks Leipzig and wounds a Spear before retreating. Second horseman dies while wounding the second Spear. Elite Horseman kills spear. Elite Horsemand dies to redlined spear and last Elite horseman kills the last spear leaving Leipzig defended by a wounded Archer.

IT: Yet another german horse attacks our elite horse but dies creating a leader on our side. :D

130AD: Currency discovered, now heading towards Construction. Northern Gambler refuses to die... and finds what seems like a deserted island. Western Hope meets England but also Russia. Russia gives us contact with France and 115 gold for our World map. Russia also has both Philosophy and Contstruction but lacks Polytheism and Currency. England and France both have Construction and lack the same techs. Suddenly I find out that we're still a Despotic Government but this must wait. I decide not to give any technology to Russia et Co. but give Russia contact with Persia (it was a matter of turns) and 92 gold for Philosophy. France gets contact with Persia, Philosophy and the World map for Construction and 105 gold. England pays us 82 gold and World Map for our World Map. I get another 20 gold from re-selling the map. Lacking trade opportunities, I gift England Contact with Persia and Persia the updated World map. The Carthaginians are now the only civ we have not met but we know exactly where they are. England is constructing the Great Wall.

Veteran Horseman dies to fortified archer but Vercingetorix Dani saves the day again and captures Leipzig. I abandon it immediately. All buildings changed to Marketplaces. Mr. Jones dies as well.

First Attempt now at size 12 hires a taxman. He had no influence over the timing of the Marketplace anyway. Second Minute and Three Cows grow to size 11. Fifth Wheel changes to Great Wall.

WE're revolting toward Monarchy.

IT: Another German horse attacks us (and dies) and we see that Germany has connected the horse city again.

150AD: We're a Monarchy. Fourth Horseman changed to Aqueduct. Research Feudalism at 90% due in 9 turns with -37 per turn.

IT: Our wounded Spear resists the archer attack and gets promoted to elite.

170AD: Vercingetorix builds Army and goes back towards the battlefield. Spot a horse in German territory, attack it and get another elite horse.

190AD: First Attempt: Marketplace -> Colloseum; Second Minute: Marketplace -> Colloseum. Initially thought of it as a placeholder but than realise we really need it. Change Three Cows to Colloseum from Marketplace.

210AD: German connection to horses cut. Feudalism due in 6 turns with -40 gpt.

Click for the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-ad210.zip)

Edit: Spelling, it's always spelling...

Well played Yndy :thumbsup:

Looks like our little empire is starting to gather some momentum now.

I dip my hand in the hat and pull out Northern Pike's token. You're up.

Ted

p.s. I'm not ignoring your spreadsheet Yndy. I'm updating both to crosscheck the results.

I was a little worried when we lost the pyramids, but now I think we have a reasonable chance of pulling this off. The choice of army for the leader was exactly right IMO. Get the Heroic Epic built ASAP. I am pretty sure now that we will spend the whole game at war.

Yndy -very good point about building units and disbanding them. I knew I was doing something wrong there.

And good move disbanding the warriors. I was in doubt between retiring them and upgrading, and in the end did neither.

Incredible how lucky we got with 'suicide' Galleys...

I’m playing all these games in such a rush that I don’t have the time to put my thoughts on the paper (screen actually).

I’d like to add that the Army is heading towards the frontline. I suggest we add one horse to it and get an easy victory so that we can initiate The Heroic Epic. Remember this is the only army that we can have.

We should not trade the Ancient Age techs to the guys overseas in order to slow it down. I chose Feudalism so that we can initiate more pre-builds at a time but then I think we should go towards the top branch and not even research engineering (I’m not sure about this though, any cons?). We should wait to see what is the free-tech of Russia and Persia. Thinking again, we could also make peace with Germany just after researching Feudalism and gift her all the AA tech so that they pull a Medieval age tech that we may use (trade for).

We need to focus on several cultural buildings these turns, Colloseums and possibly Cathedrals in all cities as soon as possible. Also join workers into Fourth Horseman as soon as the Aqueducts is built. Thinking of that, I should have researched Monotheism instead but maybe Germany will pull it for free.

I really have a very strong view about research. It needs to be really sloooow. I would not sell/gift any techs to the AI in the middle ages. Too many wonders too close together. Heroic Epic is vital, not for the culture so much as for leader generation.

When the army is obsolete we could disband it I think. Never done that b4 so I'm not sure.

I agree with MB. We shoudl immediately start some war between the other AIs.

Dispanding armies can be a good move for rushing catherdrals and things as they create 100 sheilds.

Wars - good :)
Gifts - bad :(

Shouldn't that be the other way round? :D

Hmmmmm - thanks for the tip :beer:


Ted

Got it. Good round, Yndy.

I can't seem to do anything with the spreadsheets. Is Excel

1. included with Windows,

2. downloadable, or
3. something one actually has to buy? :vomit: ;)

1. No
2. Only a viewer
3. Well yes.

Nevermind, I'm happy enough if me and Ted will update it. We'll post the predicted years from time to time.

Re: Gifts - I see gifts were useless but at least they did not trade with each other.

Edit: Grammar

Thanks for the quick answer. I was afraid that was the situation. :)

@NP
I'll post a screenshot of the calculator summary page for you when I play my turns.


Ted

Thanks, Ted, that would be helpful.


210 (0): The Great Wall will trigger our GA when we complete it in six turns. Not ideal timing, perhaps, but we're out of despotism, and now we'll be able to get some use out of our Gallics. I get two of them moving towards Germany.

The Spanish warrior four tiles southwest of our gems colony is escorting a settler. I'll try to block them off from sites which would immediately destroy our colony if used for a city, while tolerating settlement elsewhere, since I don't really want to go back to war with Spain until we've made more progress against Germany.

A horseman emerges from Berlin and dies attacking our nearby spearman.

Three Cows colosseum --> Gallic Swordsman.

Fourth Horseman aqueduct --> colosseum.


230 (1): Our elite horseman near Berlin defeats an archer--no GL.


250 (2): Our mini-SoD moves next to Berlin.


260 (3): We take Berlin from its garrison of three spearmen and two archers--without loss, remarkably, though two units redline. We raze the city.

Our army of horsemen gets its first two victories in the assault, and Fourth Horseman switches to Heroic Epic.

The Spanish found Zaragoza, on a site which will cost us our gems colony once the city gets a cultural expansion. We still have some time in which to deal with this.

A German archer emerges from Konigsberg and destroys our veteran spearman in the area.


270 (4): We kill the archer with an elite horseman--no GL.

Three Cows GS --> marketplace.

We get a palace expansion.


280 (5): I've been adding value to our WM by making safe moves with our galleys, and now I sell it around for 57 gold.

First Attempt colosseum --> worker (city at size twelve with full food box).

Fifth Wheel Great Wall --> colosseum, and our Golden Age begins.


290 (6): Our Gallic Swordsmen see their first action as we raze the new German capital of Konigsberg, which is held by three spearmen and an archer. We take no losses, and on the final attack:

On the final attack... What?

Oh, I love these moments of suspense. :p

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-290AD.JPG

Very droll, Karasu. :lol:


One of our Gallics destroys an archer southeast of Hamburg, the latest German capital.

First Attempt worker (which later merges into Fourth Horseman) --> Gallic.

Second Minute colosseum --> Gallic.


300 (7): Our units in Germany heal.

A jungle burn outside Fifth Wheel doesn't reveal BG.

We discover Feudalism and begin researching Monotheism. We didn't get much service out of our Gallics, which are now superseded by the inferior MDI.


310 (8): More healing.

First Attempt MDI --> pikeman.

Second Minute MDI --> courthouse.


320 (9): We complete the road to our distant silks colony, and we're able to cut the luxury rate to 0%.

First Attempt pikeman --> horseman.

Three Cows marketplace --> courthouse.


330 (10): We raze Hamburg, garrisoned by three spearmen and an archer, for no loss. The German capital moves to Munich.

A Gallic Swordsman defeats an archer (depleted by catapult fire) north of Fourth Horseman.

Our southern galley discovers a lane of sea tiles through the ocean, though it doesn't look as if it can lead to anything but the South Pole.

I sell our WM around for 28 gold.

Six elite victories produced one Great Leader this round.

THE FUTURE:


Orgetorix is waiting in First Attempt. I think we should use him to rush Sun Tzu in Fourth Horseman as soon as Heroic Epic completes there. It would be nice to keep Sun Tzu as a prebuild, but it wouldn't be wise to sit on a Leader for the length of time it will take before we qualify for another Wonder, and we need to do everything possible for Fourth Horseman's cultural total. Once all this has been done, Fourth Horseman will still need its cathedral, colosseum, and marketplace, in that order.

Fifth Wheel still needs its marketplace.

We should prebuild towards Monotheism/cathedrals to the extent possible, even if it's just a question of saving two turns with granary prebuilds. The courthouses being built in Second Minute and Three Cows are not prebuilds--they should help us.

We need to discuss whether we want to wipe out the Germans and later the Spanish completely, or whether we want to keep them in being as one-city vassal civs for Leader-fishing purposes. I think we should try the latter, at least until it becomes inconvenient. Given the terrain, if we're going to leave the Germans with one city it should be Munich, not Heidelberg.

The micromanagement of Fourth Horseman should be checked once we're able to increase the garrison to two.

The MDI between Second Attempt and Three Cows is positioned so as to be able to reinforce either city in one move.

I've been moving forces into position for the upcoming war with Spain, but we probably shouldn't attack in the Valencia area until stronger units than horsemen are available. Remember, we'll lose our gems colony as soon as Zaragoza gets a cultural expansion.

The save:

330 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-330AD.zip)

The remnants of Germany:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-330AD.JPG

Well played!

Why can't we switch to colloseum in 4th to use the leader for Tzus Earlier? Wouldn't 4th catch up quicker then? I haven't looked at the save so I reserve the right to pen utter rubbish of course.

Got it

Good progress against Germany :thumbsup:

Now that we've some friends overseas I propose that we reduce both Spain & Germany to one city Leader farms. Not in a mad rush I hasten to add but steady decimation.

Edit: now that I've had a look at the save I think it might be worth buying an embassy with France, sign them up for an MA vs Spain, declare war on Russia and get France to sign up on our side for that one as well. It might also be possible to sign Persia up vs Russia. This would leave England stuck in the middle with foreign units continually crossing her soil and hampering her Workers.

This would slow the AI down even more and allow us to concentrate on Spain & Germany at home.

Of course we can't sign an MA vs Spain until we sell France contact with Spain so forget my wild idea :o


Ted

BTW, the workers between First Attempt and Fourth Horseman are there to extend our line of irrigation towards FH. We need to do this even though it will involve irrigating some tiles we've already mined.

@NP
Irrigation work completed :)

Post results tomorrow morning.


Ted

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Pre-turn
Push Research to 90% (Mono in 5 @ -32gpt, 322gp in the Bank) - I'll see how much I can make from trading our WM next time and adjust accordingly

Press button
FA Horse - Horse

1 - 340AD
Move 3 vet Gallic Swords & 2 Elite Horse to gold mountain North of Heidelburg
Move vet Pike, vet Horse & Catapult to 2N of Zaragoza (prep)
Send vet MDI towards Valencia
Spot a foreign border just peeking out of the fog Southwestish of Seville - must be our last neighbour stuck alone on an island - could be our first off-continent conquest target :)
Gallic Sword (2NE Zaragoza) forts
Hawk WM for 15gp

IBT
Germany lands lone Horse SW of FH
FA Horse - Horse
SM Court - Granary
FH Heroic Epic - Sun Tzu
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-340AD-Heroic.jpg
FW Colosseum - Market

2 - 350AD
Bombard Horse for 1hp damage
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Horse
Sun Tzu hurried in FH
Assault on Heidelburg:
Elite Horse kills Spear
Elite Horse retreats from Spear(2/3)
Vet Gallic Sword kills 2/3 Spear
Heidelburg is destroyed - we get 3gp & 1 Slave (Stella)
Stella roads to NNE FH
Make peace with Germany - they give WM + 12gp (broke)
Demand WM + 13gp from Spain - they refuse
Declare war on Spain
Vet Horse retreats from reg Sword
vet Horse retreats from reg Sword(2/3)
MDI takes station North of Valencia
Assault on Valencia:
Vet Horse kills Spear & promotes
Vet Horse kills Spear
Raze Valencia
Capture 2 Slaves (Sarah & Steph)
Catapult, vet Pike, vet GS & 2 vet Horse arrive North of Zaragoza
Lux 10%
Research 80% (3 turns @ -36gpt, 287 in the Bank)
Hawk WM for 11gp

IBT
Spain grabs our Silk Colony as expected
FA Horse - Court (pre-build)
TC Court - Horse (nothing for pre-build)
FH Sun Tzu - Market
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-350AD-SunTzu.jpg

3 - 360AD
Assault on Zaragoza:
Catapult bombards and misses
Vet Horse kills Spear & promotes
Vet Horse kills Warrior & promotes
Zaragoza is destroyed
Units start the long march SW
Hawk WM for 7gp

IBT
Vet Horse killed by Sword
TC Horse - Galley (let's meet our last neighbour)

4 - 370AD
Vet MDI kills 3/4 Sword
Units regroup in the South
Research 70%
Hawk WM for 4gp

IBT
Discover Monotheism - Theology
SM Granary - Cathedral
TC Galley - Cathedral

5 - 380AD
FA, FH & FW switch to Cathedrals
Silks Colony re-established
2 vet Horse + GS head for Salamanca
Galley (New Hope) sails West to meet our hidden neighbours
Lux 0%
Hawk WM for 3gp

IBT
FA Cathedral - Pike (Colony guard)
FW Cathedral - Market

6 - 390AD
Fortify Pike & Catapult on Gems Colony
MDI & Warrior fort Silks Colony
Slave starts fortress on Silks Colony
New Hope sails West
Pike's Paladin joins Army
Research 70% (8 turns @ +4gpt, 244 gp in the Bank)
Hawk WM for 4gp

IBT
FA Pike - Horse

7 - 400AD
2 vet Horse + vet GS arrive N Salamanca
Elite Horse + vet Horse 2 moves from Salamaca
Catapult + vet Horse 2 moves from Silks Colony
Northern Gambler positioned for Ocean crossing
Land routes from Munich now blocked
Pike (FA) starts long march to Silks Colony
2 elite Horse (FA) head towards Spain
Hawk WM for 4gp

IBT
FA Horse - Pike
SM Cathedral - Pike
TC Cathedral - Pike
FH Cathedral - Market

8 - 410AD
Assault on Salamanca:
Vet Horse retreats from Spear
Vet Horse retreats from Spear
Vet GS kills Spear & promotes
Battle group retires North to mountain
Northern Gambler attempts Ocean crossing
Elite Horse & vet Horse join Battle Group
2 Elite Horse join Silks Colony re-inforcements brigade
Hawk Wm for 4gp

IBT
FA Pike - Horse
SM Pike - Horse
TC Pike - Galley
Northern Gambler sinks :(

9 - 420AD
Pike (FA) positioned midway between FA & FH
Pike fort TC
Pike fort SM
Elite Horse & vet Horse arrive N Salamanca
Units in the hills 2N Salamanca fort to heal
Research 80% (4 turns @ -26gpt, 257 in the Bank)
Hawk WM for 3gp

IBT
FA Horse - Granary
SM Horse - Cat
TC Galley - Granary
FW Market - Court

10 - 430AD
Cat & vet Horse arrive at Silks Colony
2 elite Cav at mountain 2SE Santiago
Vet Horse kills Spear at Salamanca
Galley sails NW from TC
Research 70% (3 turns @ -7gpt, 234gp in Bank)

Notes & pictures follow...


Ted

Notes
A German Archer is loose somewhere in the North. Not a problem just something to be aware of.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD-munich.jpg
We can prolong the war with Spain until we get a Leader.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD-spain.jpg
Theology is due in 3 at a slight deficit.
We are the tech leaders at the moment and look to stay that way.
I suggest that after theology we switch to the bottom branch & pursue it all the way to Military Tradition until AI Discovers Education. I don't see much point in researching Chivalry in this game as we've got things well under control on our home continent. This approach would give us Sistine & Leonardo's without any real challenge from the AI.
Once Education is discovered then we should concentrate on the middle Branch to get Copernicus' then Magellan's hoping that the AI will trade us Music Theory for Bach's.
This is only a guide as I've not really got a feel for the tech pace in this game yet. I'm hoping that we can research the mainline techs and buy the offshoots from the AI but it might be that they are too slow in researching for this to work.
There is new land to be discovered Southwest from Salamanca.

Our Armies
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD-military.jpg

Demographics
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD-demographics.jpg

Culture Summary
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD-summary.gif
There was a slight discrepancy with the numbers for First Attempt. Perhaps we had a riot. I tweaked the sheet by adding in a 1 turn anarchy for First Attempt to correct the problem.

Finally, the save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-430AD.zip) and the updated spreadsheet is > there < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-Calc-AD430.zip)


Ted

Got it! Looking forward to having a turn in this game.

Good round, Ted. Thanks for posting the spreadsheet.

I like the research plan you've laid out, though it may have to be adjusted to circumstances, as you say.

Just one quibble: if Fourth Horseman doesn't yet have its colosseum--which I think is the case, though I'm writing this before checking the save--it should probably switch to colosseum, and only then complete its marketplace.

I feel a little out of my depth here. This is not my usual sort of game. Any road up...

430AD: Pre-turn
5th MM'd to increase commerce. Court still due in 4
Second switched to horse. I dont like losing 14 shields in building a cat.
I am not sure of the purpose of the granaries
Short rush colloseum with market in 4th.

IBT:
A couple of Spanish archers approach for the south West.
2nd horse - Pike
4th colloseum - Palace pre-build

440AD:
I will allow the SOD north of Salamanca to heal b4 attacking. No point rushing things here.
Not sure what to do with the army.

IBT:
1st granary - pike
2nd pike - pike
3rd granary - settler

450AD:
Sent out another suicide galley.

IBT:
Persians want an audience. They want to swap WMs. No
Learn theology. Now - Engineering vs Education. Unis have a very large cultural value for all our cities. How long will we have to wait for it to get it from the GL? I know I am running against the rest of the teams opinions, but I do not think we can wait 20 turns for universities. Sorry. I select education.
1st Pike - Pike
2nd Pike - horse
3rd Settler - galley
Western Hope sinks without trace.

460AD:
Raze Santiago. No leader, but we do get another worker.
Set science to 50% (+28gpt, Education in 13)
Change 4th to Sistines in 22 (ouch!)

IBT:
Germans get a cultural expansion and we get kicked out.
1st Pike - settler
2nd horse - horse
5th court - granary

470AD:
Attack Salamanca
Vet horse against reg spear dies.
Elite Gallic against reg spear retreats
Elite horse against reg spear wins leaving redlined pear in city.
I am going to leave this city as our leader farm as Seville is on a hill.
I have to kill the archers I talked about on the pre-turn.
Both Vet horses win and are promoted.

IBT:
1st settler - horse I'm building all these units to help hurry the unis soon.
2nd horse - horse
3rd galley - galley

480AD:
Now the GA has ended, Sistines in 4th doesn't look such a good idea. I switch it to market and put Sistines in 5th instead.
Join settler to 4th

IBT:
4th market - Granary

490AD:
Join Settler to 5th
Science to 40% now GA is over.
Russia has Republic. We can't afford it.

IBT:
The spanish drop off a horse near 5th.
I can't justify any more units for unis as Eduction is 17 turns away. So 1st is put on wealth. I don't know what else to do with it. 2nd is put on wealth too.
3cows - galley - galley

500AD:
Meet polite Carthage.
I trade them Mathematics for WM + 174g (all they had).
That's everybody met, right?

IBT:
Another galley was lost. But we don't need to send any more out.

510AD:
Blank dies trying to kill Spanish horse. Astral Peculiarity finishes the job. I wish it was the other way around to save the typing.

IBT:
3 cows Galley - cat
4th granary - cat

IBT:
4th cat - cat

530AD:
Join Green leaves of Summer into Fifth as there is no way I am going to type in that name again. ;)

3 Cows and 4th still need some improvement. I'm sorry if researching Education was against the gameplan, and I did hesitate for a long while, but I could not think of an argument to wait 40 turns maybe for unis. IMO the culture loss would hurt us bad.

There is a reasonable stack of Elites north of Seville which must be razed as it's on a hill.

I allowed the German archer to go home. He is now fortified in the German cultural border.

Here is the latest minimap

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/ffa.jpg

>>here<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-530AD.SAV) is the save for a better player.

We do need universities quickly, and Education was a reasonable choice.

Yeah, Education was good enough. Anyway, with 5 cities and no Unis, researching to Cavalry would have been painfully slow.

We still need to do things with Fourth lagging behind. I'd also make a note on building wealth as well.

Good choice on Education. I don't think we would have got anything out of the Great Libary anyway.

I'm not online as I am typing right now -did we start any war among the AIs? I liked Ted's idea to get the Brown and the Pink to fight across Orange lands.

Carthage (?) is alone, and we need to start planning to land some units there. We could capture a few cities and gift them to an ally, in order to have a place to heal.

Fine choice with Education MB.

I wrote my notes in a rush and it shows :o

The Wheel turns full circle and comes to rest on Space's foot. You're up.


Ted

I see it, but I haven't got it yet. Predictably I'm UP in at least 2 games now. I'll have some time later tonight to come back to read and get the game...

edit: got it, I'll try to play tomorrow.

TJ01 turnlog 530AD

Pre-turn:
My, don't we look good. :)
There's room to move the slider to (4.6.0) to get us Education in 9 at -12gpt (354g in the bank).

IT:
3Cows Cat -> Wealth
4th Cat -> Palace
2nd Wealth -> Worker
Difficult choices, I think I should be aware not to build too many units so we don't compromise the treasury. 4th has 22spt so it'll have 176 shields in 8 turns to complete the Uni and not lose shields.

540AD - turn 1
Fortify the stack near Spain, to heal before the next attack.
I'm using the galleys to scout some more except for 1 which goes to 3Cows.

Diplo: Russia is still the only one with Republic

IT:
Spain sends an Archer.
Carthage asks our Galley to leave.
2nd Worker -> Wealth

550AD - turn 2
5/5 Horseman vs 3/3 Archer: wins unscratched and Caractacus is born. [dance]
I think I'll save the leader for when we have Education, we can use the shields in 5th for a Uni and build Sistines where it suits us best.
Sell WM around for a total of 27g and up-to-date maps.

IT:
Zzzz

560AD - turn 3
The leader moves in First to wait in safety. I checked the Wonder screen but nobody is building anything yet, we can afford a 6 turn wait.

IT:
Germany floats a boat.

570AD - turn 4
All is quiet.
Diplo - Zzz, France is getting rich.

IT:
Germany lands a settler and a spear near the Horses.

580AD - turn 5
Gallic pillages the Horse before the settler settles. Hmmf, to declare or not to declare. I can still do so honourably at this moment. No leader will appear though, but we don't want Germany to be able to build Horses, so I will declare.
Declare Germany.
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear, Horse is redlined and retreats.
4/4 Horse vs 2/3 Spear, Horse is redlined but wins, 2 new slaves appear.
Elite Spear covers the wounded Horses.

IT:
Spain has snuck an Archer past, 2 Horses from First move to attack him next turn.

590AD - turn 6
4/4 Galley vs 3/3 Galley, wins at 3/4.
Oh-oh just noticed my mine on the BG is outside the scope of First... :smoke:
Hawk WM around

IT:
Spain moves the Archer out of reach, but a reg Spear is near our stack. I'll try to promote the Vet Horse in there.

600AD - turn 7
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spear (on grass), redlines and retreats
5/5 Horse vs 3/3 Spear, redlines but wins.
Both wounded units heal in the stack.
I can finally move the slider back for profit (5.5.0) +1gpt, 309g in the bank, Education in 2.

IT:
Russia feels strong and tries to frighten us into giving the Cartegian contact. I don't think so Cathy, dear. She declares war on us.
Oops, there was a road under the rubble and the Horses where within range of the Archer. He had to attack crossing a river though, so our Horse survives.

610AD - turn 8
The people enjoy being at war with 3 Civs. We get 5 WLTKD's and 2 new Palace improvements.

IT:
Education comes in, start Engineering.

620AD - turn 9
Err, sorry guys, I forgot to pre-build for Uni's, 4th will be ready in 2 though. We could take the shield loss in 5th switch to Uni, and build Sistines in 4th (using the leader) when the Uni completes. I'll leave that one for the next player since it all happens in the 10th turn.
I was thinking of getting France to war against Russia, but it looks like that is already the case...

IT:
Zzz

630AD - turn 10
Spanish Settler pair moves in sight, *grin* .

That's it from me this turn. Interesting choices to be made by the next player.

--------------> the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-630AD.zip)

Ted, where are you? :scan:

You know I can't download the save before your ever changing announcement... :D

The music stops and Karasu is left holding the parcel. You're up.

Good news on the GL Space.


Ted

Got it :love:

Allowing our puppet cities a little room to spit out a few settlers is a very good plan IMO. I meant to say something last time I got the save.

Very well played Space.

Playing this evening. Sorry to keep you waiting, but I have to start packing my bags... :D

Pre-turn
Everything fine. Let's start.
Build embassy in Persia for 65 gold. Temple there, have Iron. Since England are already at the end of the Ancient Age, I see no problems in giving Xerxes Literature and Currency for MA against Russia and his 2 gold pieces...

Build embassy in France for 92 gold. She's building the Heroic Epic, and she's already at war with Russia.

Ops. Did I spend too much? :mischief:

Attack Spanish Spearman.
Horseman 1 gets redlined and retreats
Horseman 2 wins unscathed. We get two workers.

Reposition the troops near Munich to leave the Germans room to escape with a Settler... :evil:

Disband some warriors


Turn 1 - 640 AD
Fourth: University - Horseman (the Palace would be built in 15 turns only, and we will get Engineering in 12)

Our people admire us. I take the liberty to add a slightly off-topic touch to our Palace... :D

Attack Spanish Archer. Veteran horseman manages to get himself killed.
Elite Gallic wins.

Galleys move around. One of them feels compelled to try a suicide run across the Ocean. Her name is Kami Kaze...


IT - Kami Kaze righteously dies in deep waters.


Turn 2 - 650 AD
Let not the Spanish grow too much... We raze Sevilla without losses and move troops outside Salamanca, to wait for a Settler (I loved this idea).


Turn 3 - 660 AD
Fourth: Horseman - Horseman
Disband Horseman in Three

Rebuild Colony on Gems
Increase science to 60%, Engr due in 8 at -15 gpt

Sell WM around for a meager 12 gold
But... wait. Joan has 361 gps left. I decide to sell her Monotheism for all her cash. With the other AI broke, she won't get too much benefit from it, and we can speed up research a little bit now: set science at 60%, Engr in 8 at -14 gpt


Turn 4 - 670 AD
Worker movements
New Hope ventures into deep seas.


Turn 5 - 680 AD
Fourth: Horseman - Med Inf
Disband Horseman somewhere (can't remember)

IT - New Hope sinks. Tough luck this time with Galleys.


Turn 6 - 690 AD
Moved some units
Build Embassy in England for 62 gps.
Since Elizabeth has some money, I give her too Monotheism -for 47 gps and MA versus Russia.

Russia won't talk peace with us.


Turn 7 - 700 AD
Fourth: Med Inf - Med Inf


Turn 8 - 710 AD
First: University - Horseman


IT - Persia declares war on England.


Turn 9 - 720 AD
Second and Three: University - Horseman.
Fourth: Med Inf - Horseman


Turn 10 - 730 AD
Nothing much.
We discover Engineering. Set to Invention (but can be changed without wasting anything).


Sistine is due in two turns, I haven't used the Great Leader.
I used a few workers to build outposts and remove some wandering units.

A Spanish archer is in the forests south of the Gems; they also have a Galley to the east.

We could get Republic from Carthage for Monarchy. We could make the deal, but then we would have to make peace with Germany and Spain, or remove them from the map. And maybe disband a few units (talking about units, I have built some for a later disbanding, rather than setting cities to wealth).

Switching government to Republic, research to Astronomy and rushing Copernicus (or prebuilding for it) might be the way to go to speed up our research (the AI are already completely useless).
I didn't take this initiative as I could not discuss it with the rest of the team, so I stayed in Monarchy and at war with Germany and Spain -without getting too much out of it anyway.

The Item (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-730AD.zip)

Well played, Karasu. It's a though call with the leader. We don't we to sit on him too long, war just isn't much value when not a means to generate leaders. It'll take a while before we have researched a tech for a new Wonder. Maybe this is indeed a good time to make peace with Germany and Spain.

Good news on the warring AI Karasu :thumbsup:

The tree shakes. The apple falls. Unfortunately Yndy was standing beneath the tree :) You're up.


Ted

:goodjob:, Karasu. And yes, you certainly gave our palace an eclectic look. ;)

I think we absolutely have to get Republic from the Carthaginians and then revolt to that government, since even on a very crude estimate not allowing for marketplaces and reduced corruption we'd be better off by 45 gpt. If this means we have to make peace with the Spanish and the Germans, so be it; but given our very strong happiness position, war weariness may not matter much.

I agree with switching to Republic. We can moderate our wars easily enough and the benefits are well worth having.


Ted

Got it and I’m now at turn 7. Suddenly I realized that we are just at the limit for the culture to double during this game. I have to make some calculations at home but I might rush a half-built wonder with a leader if it would bring us more culture that the culture we would have if we built one wonder in 12 turns and then rushed another one. I’ll also do some calculations regarding the outcome of the game as we are almost out of cultural improvements. Still, Fourth horseman is desperately behind and we should use it for all the culture intensive wonders we still have.

More on this tomorrow.

Edit: Err, I was wrong. 4th Horseman is doing just as good as the other cities.

We're going for the Republic. We might need to make peace with Spain / Germany now but I think that in the future we can manage to be in war with them and avoid war weariness. Don't leave units in their territory, don't let them into ours.
Culture check:
First Attempt 20K due in 2192, turn 682.
Second Minute 20K due in 2186, turn 676.
Three Cows 20K due in 2200, turn 690.
Fourth Horseman 20K due in 2197, turn 688.
Fifth Wheel 20K due in 2295, turn 785.

Trade Republic with Chartage. At this point I'm for another approach techwise, namely to try and focus the other civs in researching techs in the bottom branch of the tree. We revolt towards republic.

740AD (1): We are now a Republic at a cost of 129 culture points. Change research project to Astronomy due in 8 at 70% science, -33gpt. There's a level one (maybe two war weariness but our cities can all cope with that. I will make peace
anyway.

Make peace with Russia. Neagtive WW ends and our citiznes are on the brink of revolt. Kill a German Archer and a Gallic promotes to Elite. Make peace with Germany. No improvement to happiness. Seal borders with Germany. Kill a Spanish Archer and make peace with Spain. They pay with a worker and 12g. :) Our cities are back to the initial status. It appears that we
had the negative WW, negate the normal WW.

Initiate massive troop movements towards Fifth wheel. Fourth changed to Palace pre-build for Copernicus. Gift Persia Polytheism, Feudalism and Engineering. Sell France Feudalism for all she has: 95 gold and 21gpt. Gift Engineering. Gift Russia, Feudalism and Enginnering. Gift England Feudalism and Engineering. I would like them to build lower branch techs, while we chase the upper end ones. Leonardo's is only 2 culture per turn but now is a drive for the AI to research Invention while we focus on other culture/tech intensive wonders. Max research on Astronomy, now due in 6 at -88 per turn.

750 (2) 2nd Minute; Three Cows: Horsemen -> Horsemen. Troops still head towards Fifth Wheel.

760 (3) First Attempt: Horseman -> Pikeman. Fifth Wheel completes Sistine. Starts University. Start disbanding in Fifth Wheel: Disband 2 Pikes, 11 horses for 13 x 7 shields. Disband our army of an additional 100 shields. University due next turn.

Spanish border expands. Our troops start changing positions.

770 (4) Two cities produce Horsemen. Fifth Wheel build University. Order more horsemen.

780 (5) FA: Pike -> Horseman.

790 (6) SM, TC, FW: Horseman -> Horseman. Tech rate lowered to 30% allowing Astronomy in one turn with +104gpt.

800 (7) Discover Astronomy. Set research towards Music Theory at 100%. Copernicus due in 11 in Fourth Horseman. That's a

little dissapointment but hey, that's the best I can do. Start a Palace Pre-build in Three Cows.

810 (8) Spain sends a settler. Second Minute and Fifth Wheel build horses. Move units toward the Spanish.

820 (9) Our treasury is dangerously low.

830 (10) Our treasury is dangerously low. Russia makes peace with France.

We have most of our army at the Spanish borders as well as the two galleys. We'll need to use our leader to rush Bach's in First Attempt. Then we should start shooting for another leader. I was considering the Chartaginians but their Mercenary is tougher than our horses. We could attack Spain and damage our rep but I leave it with you to decide. We could also wait for 11 more turns.
Researchwise our goal should be to discover as many Wonders as possible to start lots of builds and pre-builds. The most important wonder is Shakespeare but we could also research the others while we are here. The palace pre-build in Three Cows

is for Magellan, so we should research Navigation next. Then we should go for Banking, Economics, Printing Press, Democracy, Shakespeare. I was testing the cultural victory a little bit and I can say we still have a shot but the window is very small.

Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-830AD.zip)

Interesting times Yndy :thumbsup:

The thunder rolls. The lightning strikes! Luckily Northern Pike was watching the storm from the safty of his bunker. You're up


Ted

Got it. I think I'll try to keep our reputation clean, which should make for a fairly quiet turn.

830 (0): I begin shuffling our forces in Spain and Germany around, in hopes of luring those nations into founding more cities while still keeping them contained.

We're building thirty-shield horsemen in three cites producing twenty shields per turn or a bit more. I assume we're building these units largely for later disbanding, so this seems inefficient, and I switch to MDI builds.

The Spanish found Pamplona four tiles from Salamanca.


840 (1): We discover Music Theory and begin research on Navigation.


850 (2): I wish we could build Magellan in Fourth Horseman and Copernicus in Three Cows, since riverless FH will get the least research benefit from Copernicus of all our cities. But with the place prebuild only worth 250 shields--one of our real problems in this variant, as it turns out--there's no logical way to do this without waiting some time for Bach, which seems out of the question. So I don't attempt any tricky juggling, and just have Caractacus rush Bach in First Attempt.

I get three elite horsemen moving towards Germany, since we don't have enough elites over there to make a resumption of that war worthwhile.


860 (3): The Russians and the English make peace.


870 (4): The Germans found Bremen five squares from Munich.

The Persians and the English make peace.


880-890 (5-6): Zzzz....


900 (7): We complete Copernicus in Fourth Horseman.


910 (8): The Spanish found Vitoria three tiles from Salamanca.


920 (9): Fourth Horseman completes our first caravel.


930 (10): The AI civs didn't discover any techs new to us this turn--not even Chivalry.

THE FUTURE:


We're just about to discover Navigation, at which point Three Cows will have to switch to Magellan immediately, or it will complete the place prebuild. The palace prebuild should then move to Second Minute--perhaps for a bank, but possibly, with deficit research and some MM for reduced shield production, for Smith.

Given that we're hoping the AI civs will discover Invention for us, Banking seems to be the only reasonable tech choice after Navigation.

We can honourably return to war with the Spanish and the Germans next turn, and since we've lured them into founding another three cities (combined), we'll have some targets.

Seven surplus MDI are in or converging on Fourth Horseman. We can either disband them to speed up caravel construction (two MDI disbands plus its native production will let FH complete a caravel in one turn) or hoard them until they can be used to help with bank builds.

The save:

930 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-930AD.zip)

The Spanish quarantine:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-930AD.JPG

Nicely done again, NP. :)
The world at peace should see to some more science being done by others too.

Steady work NP :thumbsup:

I look around and realise that I'm the only person in the room. So I must be up :)


Ted

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Pre-turn
Sell Literature to Carthage for WM, 100gp + 8gpt (broke, with Navigation coming up I wanted all their income)
Hawk WM for 12gp
No opportunities for fomenting unrest overseas unfortunately. I aim to take Salamanca from Spain in the upcoming war to wipe out their culture base.
There is an unexplored coastal area North of Grenoble which I'll try and investigate.

press button
Discover Navigation - Banking
FA MDI - MDI
SM MDI - MDI
FH Caravel - Caravel

1 - 940AD
TC switches to Magellan's (7 turns)
Research 90% (5 turns @ -89gpt, 499gp in the Bank)
Sell Incense & Gems to France for Furs + 9gpt (flat broke, I added Gems to get the last of her gpt)
Check Diplo, declare on Spain
Move units into attack position
Sell Incense & Horses to Persia for Dyes + WM (might allow him to generate enough wealth for us to trade something else)

IBT
Germany founds Stuttgart
FW MDI - MDI

2 - 950AD
Vet Horse kills reg Spear (Pamplona) and the city falls - I raze it
Our forces march on Salamanca
Our Navy explores the Oceans
Sell Incense to Carthage for 12gp + 5gpt
Hawk WM

IBT
FA MDI - MDI
FH Caravel - Caravel

3 - 960AD
Vet Horse kills reg Archer & we capture 2 slaves
Hawk WM

IBT
FW MDI - MDI
France starts Leonardo's (Invention)

4 - 970AD
France has monopoly on Invention and no-one else has enough gold to trade it on
Research 80% (still 2 turns @ -51gpt, 320gp in the Bank)
Buy Invention from France for Theology + Contact with Carthage (they throw in WM + 27gp)
Sell Contact with Russia to Carthage for WM + 20gp + 6gpt (broke)
SM switches to Leonardo's
FH switches to Palace
Hawk WM

IBT
FA MDI - MDI

5 - 980AD
Vet Horse retreats without landing a blow on reg Spear (Salamanca)
Vet Horse kills reg Spear and Salamanca falls - I raze it (didn't expect a garrison of only 1)
Hawk WM

IBT
Discover Banking - Economics
FW MDI - Bank

6 - 990AD
FA switches to Bank
Disband 5 MDI for 50 shields in FW (50sh in the box) need 1 more MDI
Disband 3 MDI for 30 shields in FA (51 sh in box) need 1 more MDI
Research 80% (6 turns @ -37gpt, 318gp in the Bank)

IBT
TC Magellan's - Bank
The people love me - add an annexe

7 - 1000AD
Disband MDI in FA (Bank in 3 turns)
MM FW for Bank in 3
Hawk WM

8 - 1010AD
Disband 3 MDI in TC
Hawk WM

IBT
Russia starts Leonardo's

9 - 1020AD
Build 2nd Silks Colony (SW of the 1st)
Start Fortress on 2nd Silks
Disband MDI in TC
Hawk WM

IBT
Finally, Spain sends out a lone Archer
FA Bank - MDI
FW Bank - MDI

10 - 1030AD
Disband MDI in TC
Elite Horse kills reg Spear

Notes
Economics due in 2 @ -25gpt, 284gp in the Bank
Second Minute is running at -6fpt in order to get as many shields into Leonardo's ASAP. Switching from a mined mountain to an irrigated Floodplain gets back to zero growth.
Spain has only sent out 2 units and had such poor defense that I overran Pamplona & Salamanca without intending to. We might as well make peace with Spain and allow Germany to build up a little more before declaring again.
I traded the Carthagian contact when France discovered Invention as they started Leonardo's immediately and I needed to switch Second Minute ASAP.
I've drained the AI coffers and research capability by selling the WM and Luxuries. I've created a 2nd Silks Colony and Harvest Moon is a few steps away from creating a 2nd Gems Colony. I thought this was a reasonable way to slow them down as I couldn't get a war going on the other continent.
I thought it too early to start another Palace pre-build as our Palace cost is so low (only 5 cities :)). Fourth Horseman is on a pre-build for Smith's which should become available in 2 turns.
Looking at the tech choices I can't really see any alternative to Printing Press, Democracy then Free Artistry to get Shakespeare's at which point we might be able to swap out Smith's in Fourth Horseman and even up the CPT a bit more, moving Smith's to Fifth Wheel.

Culture Summary
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1030AD-summary.gif

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1030AD.zip)

The Sparrow flits across the open meadow. Alighting on the hedge he looks around, lifts his tail and recycles nature's bounty. Mad-bax, crouching behind the hedge in the hope of not being noticed, receives the benefit. :) You're up!


Ted

It's good Invention entered the scene. :) Maybe it's wise to hit on France somewhere in the near future though, to spark a little action in that part of the world. :hammer:
How close do you think the race for Leo's is?

I thought that it might be best to wait until we get Cav before venturing across the oceans to pay Joanie :love: a visit.

I'm not too worried about Leonardo's. We only started 1 turn behind, we're at max pop (all productive) and running a food deficit. If France can beat that she deserves it :D


Ted

Okey dokey. I see it, but I'm at work so I can't get it ATM. Looks like a late night tonight. :)

First of all here is the >>save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1130AD.SAV)

1030AD: Pre-turn.
All OK as I would expect... nay demand!

IBT:
Russia wants contact with Germany. I decline and she has the temerity to declare war.
Can't seem to get an MA against her either. Can't work out why.

1040AD:
Sign peace with Isabella.
Adjust slider for Economics.

IBT:
First MI - Explorer
Fifth MI - Explorer
Discover Economics, research Press in 5 turns

1050AD:
All quiet

IBT:
First Explorer - Longbow
Three cows bank - caravel
fifth - explorer - longbow

1060AD:
All Quiet

IBT:
Nothing happened

1070AD:
Start moving elites from Spain to Germany.

IBT:
First Longbow - Longbow
3 cows Caravel - palace
5th longbow - longbow

1080AD:
Boats find some more (uninhabited) land.

1090AD:
Turn down science for printing press

IBT:
Learn PP research Democracy
1st longbow - longbow
fifth longbow - longbow

1100AD:
3 cows adjusted to get palace a bit later

1110AD:
No change

IBT:
First Longbow - Longbow
Fifth Longbow - Longbow

1120AD
No news

IBT:
Carthage starts Leos

1130AD:
Nothin' to see around here.
I spent 184g investigating Paris. They are currently in anarchy, revolting to republic, so I couldn't read off how many turns 'till Leos completes. They are 3 shields over half way and once out of Anarchy can produce 20 shields per turn. We are 75% complete making 23 uncorrupted shields per turn. Happy days.

All our elites are outside Germany.

I have started to road between Spain and Germany.

Can we found a city close to Germany, gift it to Spain on the same turn so we can raze Vitoria?

BTW: All the Longbows were just for disbanding purposes. They are the most shield efficient build I think.

Roses are Red, Violets are Blue,
Well played mad-bax, now it's over to you...

Space :) You're up!


Ted

Got it.

I fear that I won't play tonight though. I'm very tired and I don't want to make mistakes and mess this one up.

goals: Totally off topic: six to be precise! Lala lalala lalala... [dance]
Try to research Free Artistry ASAP.

pre-turn:
Gracious France has Gunpowder, so does Russia. Our WM can get us a lot of money. I'll wait a bit to get some more out of them.
Russia wants to talk but no straight peace yet.
I'll need to watch the pre-build for Shake's, I'll have to slow it down a bit if nescessary. Hmm, Germany seems like a juicy bit, no deals currently running, but no real use for a leader yet either.

IT:
First Longbow -> Med Inf
Fifth Longbow -> Med Inf

Both are equally expensive bur med inf defend better. Not sure this is right though, each new unit costs us gold, not sure what I'm saving the shields for, we need money more for the imminent upgrades. I can buy Gunpowder from France for Education, 43g and 17gpt. Russia will give Gunpowder, peace, 29g and 17gpt. I'm gonna make the deals, a Wonderless period's ahead and we'll soon have Cavs to deal with any upstarts.

1140AD - turn 1:
Trade Russia Education for Peace, Gunpowder, 29g and 17gpt. (all they have, she goes polite)
Trade France Education for WM, 43g and 17gpt. (all they have)
Trade Carthage Education for WM, 16g and 7gpt. (all they have)
Trade Carthage Education for WM and Spices.
There are 6 sources of Saltpeter on our island, of which 2 within our borders.
France doesn't have Salt otheir land, Russia 2, but not connected yet.
All the extra income allows us to move the slider to (0.10.0) for Demo in 3 @ -54gpt. (418g in the Bank)
Workers move in the direction of the Salt.
Boats are fog-busting.

IT:
Carthage extorts contact with the Germans. I want their 7gpt so I give in.
We lose our supply of Dyes, Persia doen't want Horses and Incense for it anymore, ok, suit yourselves.

1150AD - turn 2:
Move the slider back a notch for Demo in 2, at -26 gpt.
More fog-busting, more going to Salt sources.
Check on diplo, all ok.

IT:
Zzzz

1160AD - turn 3:
Can't move the slider back any further, demo now due in 1.
More fog-busting, more going to Salt sources.
Sell WM to France for WM and 24g. Germany WM+6g, Carthage WM+20g+2gpt!, Russia and England are broke.

IT:
Lost our supply of Furs, tone our deal woth France down to Incense and Gems for Furs and 8gpt.
Demo comes in, start Free Artistry.
Our Ivory deal with Carthage ends, make it a straight Ivory for Silks deal.

1170AD - turn 4:
Move slider to (2.8.0) for FA in 6 at +6gpt, Palace in Three due in 7. :)

IT:
Zzzz

1180AD - turn 5:
Upgrade Galley to Caravel.

IT:
Zzzz

1190AD - turn 6:
Salt connected, switch 1st and 5th to Muskets.
Move slider back for a healthier +23gpt and still FA in 4.
France suddenly has a lot of money, probably researched something we already knew, and sold it to Russia.
England is lagging. The German and Spain contact has changed hands too. :(
4th can go off the starving diet and will still get Smith's in 5.

IT:
2nd completes Leo's -> Musket.
Isabella sends a settler out.

1200AD - turn 7:
Diplo check OK, sell WM around.

IT:
Zzz

1210AD - turn 8:
More fog-busting.
FA due in 2 turns.

IT:
Spanian pair sneak through the deliberate hole.
1st Musket -> Musket
5th Musket -> Musket

1220AD - turn 9:
More fog-busting and map-selling.

IT:
FA comes in, start Chemistry.
2nd Musket -> Bank.

1230AD - turn 10:
I'm switching 4th to Shake's (@massive loss of shields: 180) and 3 Cows to Smith's, it's turn to go on starvation diet, should be ready in 14 turns. This should resolve our problems wth 4th.
Some longbows are on their way to give up their lives for construction of a Bank. :crazyeye:

Our source of Salt:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-Salt.JPG


------>the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1230AD.zip)

Steady going Space :thumbsup:

The light rests briefly on an empty chair, then swings to reveal Yndy. You're up!


Ted

Was Karasu skipped or something? I saw the game this morning but I thought it was his empty chair. Anyway I got it.

Karasu is on holiday until Dec 9th. It was his empty chair alright. :)(Keep it up Ted, I :love: the switch over statements.)

Just trying to improve my creative writing :blush:

And, no I don't have them prepared in advance :)


Ted

Pre-turn.

All 60 of our citizens are happy. I've never seen that before. 8-|

Culture 20k current targets:
1st Attempt - 2099AD (turn 589)
2nd Minute - 2166AD (turn 656) <- problem here
3 Cows - 2154AD (turn 644) <- problem here
4th Horseman - 2135AD (turn 625) <- problem here but Shakespeare due in 1
5th Wheel - 2095AD (turn 585)

Change tech rate to 100%. Going for Newton's on full power. Sell France Astronomy for 96 gpt, 30g and World Map. I'd like to attack Carthage but we can't do that during my turn due to ongoing trades.

Send troops to Second Minute to disband and hurry bank. What's the catch with the explorers? Is there anything preventing us to attack Germany? Kill two spears and raze Stuttgart.

1240AD (1) Shakespeare's built in Fourth Horseman -> Bank. Disband troops there. Also disband troops in Second Minute. Kill some German troops but no leader yet.

1250AD (2) First and Fourth build Muskets and change to Catapult (I disbanded most of the defending troops last turn); SEcond Minute changes to Palace due in 13 (on starvation as well) -> 13 turns to Newton is a little ambitious but we can slow it down later.

Kill 2 German units with elites.

1255AD (3) Catapults built, building last two of those. Elite Gallic retreats to Reg Spear. Elite Horse dies to now Vet Spear. Vet horse retreats, Elite* Horse dies to the now Elite spear. Another Elite Horse kills him finally. Munich is razed.

1260AD (4) Catapults built change to Explorers (I now understand perfectly their role :)) Cannot drop research towards Chemistry with even 10%. It's due in 1 turn.

1265AD (5) England makes unreasonable demands and I reject. Fourth Horseman builds Bank. Change to Caravel. Keep building
explorers in the other cities. I don't know why but we missed a turn on the palace pre-build in Second Minute. Anyay take the city out of the diet for a while. Physics is now due in 6 at 100%.

Kill German Archer. We can make peace but I'd rather wait and see if they have any more units.

1270AD (6) Sell Music Theory around for 30gold. Change Explorers to Muskets as shileds from 1 Musket are three times the shields from an explorer at same upkeep.

1275AD (7) Nothing much. Buy Chivalry from Carthage for Astronomy. Sending troops for upgrades. Change builds to Knights.

1280AD (8) Make peace with Germans.

1285AD (9) Move troops. Make upgrades.

1290AD (10) Upgrade more troops. Remove all GoTo orders. Russia just got Printing Press. Decrease tech to 40%, Physics still due in 1. I decrease the shield output of Second Minute but it still might be too much. I left two Caravels active.

They were originally fortified and my plan was to attack the other continent. But should we go after Russia or Carthage? That's up to you guys.

Fourth 20K now due in 2079AD, Second and Three still lagging but about to build wonders. I'd still recommend max research after Theory of Gravity towards Industrialization and The Suffrage. Save is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1290AD.zip)

Good going Yndy :thumbsup:

With a bang and a puff of smoke the roster demon appears and, leering horribly, chooses Northern Pike as his next victim. You're up!


Ted

We're tantalizingly close to the objective. In fact I am not worried now about being able to get the spreadsheet to say we can do it. We will probably have research labs, cure for cancer etc. for over a hundered turns...

I think we should attack Russia, and continue to raze the entire continent. We chould leave some units there to prevent Carthage settling it and then wipe out carthage, leaving Spain and Germany as puppets.

This won't be that easy as we have to research as quickly as possible, so we will have to limit our troops and be wary of dropping out of democracy.

Nicely played Yndy.

I agree on targetting Russia first, to prevent her from getting too powerful. I was wondering whether it is within the rules to capture a city and gift it away in the same turn? We could use this to mess up relations between the other civs. :evil: This would make them lose production and units on each other, before we finish the job. :hammer:

Here's the summary for 1290AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1290AD-summary.gif

As you can see it's Second Minute & Three Cows that are now trailing behind.

I can see the benefit in attacking Russia ASAP but I'm not keen on the capture & gift idea. It just seems to be against the spirit of the game.


Ted

That's fine with me, Ted. You're da bozz. :D

(I don't think we really need such tactics either, it's just that I like to muddy up the waters in foreign politics.)

Got it. Good round, Yndy.

Ted, thanks for posting the spreadsheet.

1290 (0): I agree that we'll have to attack Russia eventually, but since Cathy already has musketmen, the project will presumably have to wait until we have cavalry. One thing we can do now is build up our navy, and I'll try to produce five caravels in Fourth Horseman this turn. I think we're underestimating the transport capacity we'll need to make war successfully overseas.

Physics discovered, Theory of Gravity due in six turns at 100% (later reduced to 90%).

Fourth Horseman knight --> caravel (and produces a caravel every two turns for the rest of the round).

We lose our supply of spices. Since all our cities remain in Love status, I don't renew it.


1295 (1): The Russians want to renew our peace treaty. I decline, on the assumption that we should be able to form some alliances against them, and we go to war. But when I look into our options, our potential allies either won't join with us for any price (the English and the Persians) or will only do so at such a high cost in techs that it would defeat the whole tech-retarding point of the war (the French and the Carthaginians). Have we done something to soil our reputation?

In the (futile) process, I establish an embassy with the Carthaginians. Carthage is producing 22 spt after corruption, is building a musketman, and has every possible city improvement.

First Attempt knight --> knight.


1300 (2)-1305 (3): I get some elite units moving from Germany to Spain.

Fifth Wheel knight --> musketman.


1310 (4): Three Cows ADAM SMITH --> musketman.

First Attempt knight --> knight.


1315 (5): We return to war with the Spanish, and destroy a warrior/settler team for no loss.

The French declare war on the Russians without any inducement from us. The English and the Persians still won't fight the Russians for any price, and the Carthaginians still demand a cornucopia of techs.


1320 (6): We raze Santander (for no loss), getting two elite victories out of the battle but no GL.

I sell our WM around for 46 gold and 1 gpt (from Germany).

The English join France's war against Russia. I don't know what it says about our diplomacy that we get exactly the outcomes we want--as long as we're not involved in the negotiations.

An unwelcome novelty--the French land a settler on our continent, in Spain.

We discover Theory of Gravity and Second Minute switches to Newton, due in five turns. We begin researching Metallurgy, due in six turns at 90%.

Fifth Wheel musketman --> musketman.


1325 (7): The last attack we can afford to make on the Spanish without actually eliminating them produces the GL Boudicca.

The French have taken a Russian city, Odessa.

The French found Dijon on our continent, three tiles from Vitoria.

Three Cows musketman --> musketman.

First Attempt knight --> knight.


1330 (8): Zzzz....


1335 (9): Fifth Wheel musketman --> musketman.


1340 (10): I sell our WM around for 16 gold.

THE FUTURE:


We need to decide what we're going to do about settler landings on our continent. So far I've kept the French from landing any more settlers by blocking them, both with ships and with ground units on our coasts; do we consider this a legitimate tactic if used for the rest of the game? We probably can't defend our whole continent this way in any event, of course.

France's payment of 96 gpt to us has just expired, so our financial position isn't as strong as it was for most of my round. I chose not to sell any of our techs for gpt because the available rewards weren't very great, but this decision could be reconsidered.

Three Cows should begin a palace pre-build for Military Academy when it completes its current musketman build.

Boudicca is waiting in First Attempt.

The save:

1340 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1340AD.zip)

The rewards of bullying:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/TJ01-1325AD.JPG

Hmm.. So I guess we use the leader for the military academy which should get 3 cows back in the game.

I would be tempted to allow France to settle as an additional punch bag. My worry is that we will have towns spring up all over our continent that we can't police adequately. For this reason I think settlement should be discouraged and we should squash the settler. Once we get rails and have a network in place then allowing settlement should help rather than hinder us IMO. But it's too early ATM.