GOTM23 Succession Game [PTW] [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

denyd

Oct 14, 2003, 12:32 AM

Well, fasten your seatbelts, keep all your hands and arms inside the car at all times and here we go:

4000 BC Scout1 goes NE-N finds goats in the desert to the North – Worker1 E spots wool – Settler SE

3950 BC Settler founds Mekkah starts scout – settling reveals a floodplain to the south – Worker1 E to Wool – Begin researching Mysticism 100% due in 22 turns (changed my mind from The Wheel – they are both the same time to build) – Scout1 N-W spots 3 olives in the desert

3900 BC Worker1 begins to irrigate wool – Scout1 W-NW across the desert

3850 BC Scout1 N-NW spots hills to the west

3800 BC Scout1 NW-NW spots lake and grassland

3750 BC Mekkah builds Scout2 starts another – Scout2 SW-SW exposes more flood plain and gold in the mountains – Scout1 N-NW around lake

3700 BC Worker1 completes irrigation begins road – Scout2 S-S spots lake south of Mekkah – Scout1 NW-W spots silks

3650 BC Scout2 SE-S moving through the valley – Scout1 N spots goats

3600 BC Scout1 N-NE spots village in mountain – Scout2 S-SW to bottom of valley

3550 BC Worker1 completes road to Wool (1st luxury) goes SW – Mekkah builds Scout3 – starts granary – Scout3 NE-NE – Scout2 SW-SW spots spices and goats – Scout1 NE-NE pops hut for a Warrior1 – Warrior1 E spots a blue border

3500 BC Scout1 N-NW spots more silks – Warrior1 E to blue border – Scout3 NE-NE to edge of mountain range – Scout2 W-W spots more goats

3450 BC Scout3 N-W spots lots of BG – Warrior1 N along blue border to N coast – Scout2 W-W into the desert – Scout1 W-W moving through the grassland – Blue is Persia – Trade Persia CB + Pottery + 1g for Bronze Working – Persia is ahead 1 tech (Masonry) has 1 city and 11g and polite to us

3400 BC Scout3 E-E to lakeshore – Warrior1 SE along blue border – Scout1 N-N along mountain edge – Scout2 W-W meets Yellow warrior – Yellow is Egypt – Trade Pottery + Bronze Working to Egypt for Masonry + 10g – Egypt has 1 city 0 gold and even in tech – even in tech to Persia 11g

3350 BC Scout3 N-E around lake – Scout2 W-W spots lambs and a village – Warrior1 SE along border (heading to Mekkah) – Scout1 W in mountains

3300 BC Scout1 W-W back into the mountains – Warrior1 SE – Scout3 S-SE in plains next to desert – Worker1 completes irrigation begins road – Scout1 SW-W pops hut for Warrior Code also spots yellow border – Persia is now Cautious – Egypt still polite

3250 BC Warrior1 E spots Persepolis with a spearman MP and a worker mining a hill – Scout3 E-E reaches eastern shore – Scout1 W sees grassland with river – Scout2 W-W along yellow border

3200 BC Scout3 S spots spices – Warrior1 E along border – Scout2 W-W reaches SW coast – Scout1 W-NW spots gems in the mountains and lots of plains with goats/lambs and a flood plain

3150 BC Worker1 S to floodplain – Scout3 spots olives on the hills – Scout2 spots gems on the mountains to the west – Scout1 W-NW spots more grassland and plains

3100 BC Scout1 W-W spots a cow and a village – Warrior1 E spots spices – Worker1 irrigate flood plain – Scout3 SW-S spots orange border – Scout2 N-N lots of gems to the west into a nice flood plain

3050 BC Scout1 W-N pops hut and gets Alphabet – Warrior1 E to mountains – Scout3 S to orange border – Scout2 N-N to flood plain with lots of wheat – Orange is Ottoman – Recap of known AI – Ottomans 1 city 10g behind 2 tech (alphabet & CB) : Persia 1 city 11g behind 1 tech (alphabet) – Egypt 2 cities 0g behind 2 tech (warrior code & alphabet) – treasury is 8g 5gpt – Mysticism in 1 turn switch slider to 8-2-0 – Granary done in Mekkah in 2 turns – growth to 4 in 5 turns – 3 scouts 1 conscript warrior and 1 worker - All 1st level techs except The Wheel and Mysticism due in 1 turn

EDIT - Sorry I forgot to rename the file - Also is this the way to add attachments and I'd like to post a picture but am not sure how?

DaveShack

Oct 14, 2003, 12:38 AM

The attachment worked ok, but I'm not sure how you did it. I normally do them by using the upload link at the bottom of the page, and then using a http tag to link the file. Screenshots can be added by using the upload link and then using the IMG tag to link them.

I have it and am now trying to decide how to proceed with the 1st settler and the next tech choice.

Update: turnset 2 completed.

Save file, 2390BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_BC2590.SAV)

Preturn -- don't see any need for changes

3000 BC, Turn 1. 8.2.0 9g+5gpt
Mysticism discovered, start on The Wheel (40 turns)
Since we're ahead in tech and expansionist, let's try a
min research for the wheel and rack up some gold.

E scout goes E. NE Warrior follows mountain chain to NE.
NW scout goes NW, W. SW scout goes W, corner of a border
seen to the N, shifts to the N. Border is black.
End of turn 1, 14g +5gpt, Wheel in 40

3000 Great book: not shown

2950 BC, Turn 2. 7.3.0 19g+4gpt.
Makkah completes granary, starts on settler (5 turns)
E Scout goes E, found coast with oysters. NE warrior goes NE.
SW Scout goes N, W. NW scout moves N.

2900 BC, Turn 3, 7.3.0 23g+4gpt.
Contact with Zulu, they lack Masonry and Alphabet, and have only 10g.
Check other trade opps, Ottomans have 10g and lack Alphabet and CB
Egypt has nothing and needs Alphabet, Warrior Code, Mysticism
Persia has 2g and needs Mysticism

SW scout continues W. Irrigation finished, start road. SE scout S.
NE warrior N. NW scout E,N.

2850 BC, Turn 4, 7.3.0, 27g+4gpt, Wheel in 37.
SE scout sees a pictish, heads back N. NE warrior N.
NW scout E, S. SW scout E.

2800 BC, Turn 5, 7.3.0, 31g+4gpt. Wheel in 36.
SW scout E, E. SE scout N. NE warrior E. NW scout S, E
Dark blue borders in view but no contact. Growth dropped
gpt to +3 but wheel remained 36, so adjusted slider to 10%, still
36 turns, +4gpt. Settler in 3, growth in 5.

2750 BC, Turn 6, 9.1.0 36g+5gpt, Wheel in 35.
Contact with Carthage, they have 3g and need Pottery, Warrior Code, Mysticism.
SW scout 2NE. NE warrior E, NW scout E, discovered empty town of Orleans.
Move NE and stay inside border to get contact next ibt. SE scout N.

IBT: Joan of France complains about our scout near Orleans.
France has two workers (!!) and needs Pottery and Mysticism.
She wants both techs for just one worker, no dice.

2710 BC, Turn 7, 9.1.0, 41g+5gpt, Wheel in 34.
SW scout E, N. Road toward the north. SE scout N. NE warrior E.
NW settler will now go S to check out the big open area between NW and SW.
We're still dead last in score, everyone else has a 2nd city. With a
granary we should beat them to the 3rd or 4th one...

2670 BC, Turn 8, 9.1.0, 46g+2gpt, Wheel in 33.
Settler done, start warrior. We are now way behind in military and need to
crank out a unit or two.
Egypt has a couple of workers available. Trade Alphabet+42g for 2 workers?
No, need to hold on to more gold in case someone has wheel to trade.
Instead give Ottomans Alphabet for 10g+worker? We don't seem to get
enough for that trade either. In the end I decided not to
do either one.

I find myself agonizing over the town placement far longer than normal...
Don't want to let down the team. Finally decide on S, S, SW, SW.
SE scout W. NE warrior E, sees hut. NW scout S, S. SW scout E, N

2630 BC, Turn 9, 9.1.0, 48g+2gpt, Wheel in 32.
SE scout W. NW scout S. NE warrior pops hut, Iron Working!
SW scout E.

We are up Iron Working on everyone. Persia is the only one with
anything remotely interesting, 60g.

2590 BC, Turn 10, 9.1.0, 50g+2gpt, Wheel in 31.
Warrior done, start another. Iron in view to the W, divert
settler toward the iron. Send this warrior to the settler.

End of turn, 50g+3gpt, wheel in 31
3 scouts, 2 warriors, 1 settler, 1 granary, producing warrior.
6 contacts, ahead in tech on everyone, Iron in sight.

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 03:59 AM

Got it

I'll review progress so far and play later today.

@Denyd
have a look at How to Upload Save Games and Screenshots (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55122) for a step by step guide including screenshots.

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 06:07 AM

Here's a screen shot of 3050BC
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-3050AD.jpg

Good exploration denyd :thumbsup:

I'm not sure if I would have moved the Settler. I think you probably wanted to get the Wool working ASAP and was looking for a Settler Factory in the here & now. I would have stayed where I was for a higher production city later on but that's a question of taste and style :)

The rest of the turn was classic QSC stuff - some nice contacts, resulting in a tech lead and our granary is nearly ready :goodjob:

2950 looks like this
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-2590AD.jpg
(N.B. The maps aren't to the same scale)

Good solid play DaveShack :thumbsup:

Personally I would have snapped up one of those Egyptian Workers but I wouldn't have bought both as it would have been a major setback to Egypt.

Town placement is crucial but I thought the choices were very limited. I would have picked 3S,1W or 3S,1SW almost automatically. I know they're on Floodplain but either site will turn into a Settler/Worker Factory.

I don't feel that the Iron is critical just yet so I'll send the Settler back to his original target on the river. The Iron will fall under our control in 32 turns at worst from Makkah's cultural expansion.

Looking at the map in general I see some nice open countryside which will suit our Ansars. There's plenty of resources around and there are more rivers than I expected :)

As usual there's a shortage of warriors & workers but that will sort itself out of the coming years, as it always does.

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 14, 2003, 06:38 AM

denyd
DaveShack
TedJackson (UP NOW - as mentioned:) )
jimmydean (Ondeck - will play 10)

Remember
24Hr to claim "Got It". 48Hr total to post the game but I'll look the other way until 72Hr. If you can't play, post a skip out of kindness.

ControlFreak

Oct 14, 2003, 06:42 AM

Wow you guys are flying!:goodjob:

Originally posted by denyd
Sorry I forgot to rename the file
:whipped: :lol:

I think TedJackson posted the link about ... posting.:)

The attachment feature has limited file size and most SG games exceed it before the end of the game. It's best to use the Upload File feature at the bottom of the page. Also, if you can, use a zip utility to compress the file before uploading it. The downloads are faster and have built in error checking.

Your progress seems terrific. Have a great game!

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 06:53 AM

Errrm...

I'm still playing at the moment CF :)

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 14, 2003, 07:03 AM

Guess you're not playing as fast as I thought.:rolleyes:

I edited the above post.

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 08:05 AM

Pre-flight checks... OK :goodjob:

Pre-turn
Stop Settler (just in case)

Press button...

1 - 2550BC
Warrior moves back to Makkah
Worker road
Settler S
Eastern scout S,W
Northern Warrior NE - spots cultural border (can't tell who, might be India)
Southwestern scout SE
Northwestern scout 2W (ends on hill)
Persia has the Wheel - can trade IW for the Wheel + 60gp
Zulu down Alphabet & IW
Carthage & France both down Pottery, IW & Mysticism
Ottoman & Egypt both down Alphabet, IW & Mysticism
Sell IW to Persia for the Wheel + 60gp (no gpt available)
Switch research to Writing at min (if I spot a GH I'll switch to Maths before popping)

IBT
Makkah Warrior - Settler

2 - 2510BC
Turn off City Governors :)
Warrior heads after Settler
Warrior fort Makkah
Madinah founded - Scout
Eastern scout W, NW
Southwestern scout E
Northwestern scout W. S (hill)
No deals on offer. Everbody except Persia is still behind in tech

3 - 2470BC
Northwestern scout SE, S (Jungle)
Southwestern scout SE
Eastern scout 2S - spots another river close by :)
Northern Warrior NE - still can't tell who's there
Makkah is now at pop 4 (1h, 2c, 1u)
No deals around and tech status remains the same
The founding of our second city has produced a sharp increase in the Score & Power histographs

4 - 2430BC
Northwestern scout W (Jungle, Dyes)
Southwestern scout S - finds Carthage
Worker road - SW
Eastern scout SE, S (Horses on hill)
Northern Warrior NE - finds Delhi & we contact India - They are polite and behind Masonry, Pottery, The Wheel, IW & Mysticism - they only have 10gp in the bank :)
Nothing new on the trading front

Carthage ask us to leave

5 - 2390BC
Northwestern scout S (Jungle)
Southwestern scout NE
Worker road
Eastern scout 2SW
Northern Warrior N

6 - 2350BC
Northern Warrior N
Warrior fort Madinah
Eastern scout SE, W (mountain)
Southwestern scout NE (hill, Horses)
Northwestern scout W, S
Makkah pop 5 - Lux 10%
No trades

IBT
Makkah Settler - Madinah Scout - Worker

7 - 2310BC
New Scout NW, W
Settler heads here
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-2310AD-settler.jpg
Eastern scout W, N
Southwestern scout E, SE
Northwestern scout SW
Northern Warrior NE
Lux 0%
No trades

8 - 2270BC
Worker road - irrigate
New Scout W, N
Eastern scout 2S
Southwestern scout S
Northwestern scout 2W
Northern Warrior E
No trades

9 - 2230BC
New Scout 2N
Southwestern scout S
Eastern scout S, SW
Northwestern scout N, NE
Northern Warrior SE
No trading opportunities

10 - 2190BC
Settler arrives on-site
New Scout N, NW
Southwestern scout SE
Eastern scout W, S
Northwestern scout N, NE
Northern Warrior E
No trades

World Map
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-2190-overview.jpg

Local Map
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-2190AD-local.jpg

Notes
We're looking in fine shape. Our second settler is in place to found next turn, we are the joint tech leader with Persia, there's some nice land to settle in every direction.
We should probably build Warrior, Barracks, Warrior, Warrior in our city to the North as the one thing we lack is military. Makkah & Madinah can churn out Workers & Settlers between them forever.
We have Iron nearby but will need to stretch to the South or East for Horses.
I would be tempted to pop a Worker from Makkah after the current Settler just to get tile improvements underway.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-BC2190.zip)

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 14, 2003, 08:36 AM

denyd (Ondeck)
DaveShack
TedJackson
jimmydean (UP NOW - please play 10)

Remember
24Hr to claim "Got It". 48Hr total to post the game but I'll look the other way until 72Hr. If you can't play, post a skip out of kindness. [/B][/QUOTE]

DaveShack

Oct 14, 2003, 10:09 AM

Ted, looking good! :)

I do have a question about the setter going N, isn't 5.5 distance a little far on desert soil? Is it to leave the other goat for another city at 3NW, 1N?

And what, do you have a 25 inch monitor to zoom out that far, or are you stitching together the screenshots? :)

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 10:27 AM

Actually the reasons for going North were to crowd Persia and to maximise the hills and mountains for later and I didn't want to stretch to the Southeast quite so soon. We could plant another 4NW,1W (not intentionally RCP, it quite often works out like that early on) to grab those Olives.

Yep, the screenshots are stitched :) I don't normally bother doing it but it only takes five minutes so I thought "Why not?" :)

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 11:40 AM

Have a look > here < (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1295294#post1295294) for a very useful resource chart originally produced by ControlFreak.

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 14, 2003, 11:47 AM

I'll grab it in about 8 hours.

denyd

Oct 14, 2003, 02:07 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_PLANDD01.JPG

Here is a proposed layout for the next couple of cities and the reasons for each:

City # 3 (Pink X): To start northern expansion to hem in Persia & claim goats / lambs
City # 4 (Dark Blue X): Pushing westward and cutting off Carthage eastern movement and claim olives
City # 5 (Light Green X): Pushing east and claiming spices
City # 6 (Light Blue X): Pushing SW and claiming horses

That would put us at 5/8 for a RCP build.

I think it's important for us to get one of the 2 known horse sites, since without them we'll be fighting SW/MI wars!! Also getting one of the two local spices will help our happiness.

I like this start. Good job all.

I am a little iffy about the IW trade to Persia. I'm very glad to get The Wheel, put I fear Immortals in the early game and usually try to delay Persia getting Iron as long as possible.

Also, except for cost any reason why warriors and not spearmen?

Another question: does switching research cost you the accumulated research on an tech, ie 20 turns done on writing and switch to mathematics when you reach a hut. Math is now 40 turns. If you switch back to writing after popping the hut is it still 20 turns or does is revert back to 40 turns costing you the prior research??

We're still missing the Romans and Spain from our contacts list, so let's keep those scouts moving.

PS: This is my first attempt at posting screenshots
:cringe:

ControlFreak

Oct 14, 2003, 02:23 PM

denyd@ congrats on your first (of many) successful Screen Shot. (Don't get addicted.)

Nice job on the dot map too.

You are correct that you would lose your twenty turns on writing if you switch midstream. I would advice on picking a path and sticking to it.

TedJackson

Oct 14, 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by denyd
I am a little iffy about the IW trade to Persia. I'm very glad to get The Wheel, put I fear Immortals in the early game and usually try to delay Persia getting Iron as long as possible. So am I! For some reason, probably because I cycled through all the civs ending on Egypt, I thought I was selling IW to Egypt not Persia :blush:

Originally posted by denyd
Also, except for cost any reason why warriors and not spearmen?I like the cheap upgrade to Swords, who defend like spears and have a good offensive capability. If Iron is on hand but not connected then I usually don't build Spears until there's about 2 Warriors for every city.

Originally posted by denyd
Another question: does switching research cost you the accumulated research on an tech, ie 20 turns done on writing and switch to mathematics when you reach a hut. Math is now 40 turns. If you switch back to writing after popping the hut is it still 20 turns or does is revert back to 40 turns costing you the prior research?? No, all research progress is lost. I didn't like doing this but I didn't see any GH during my turn and Writing is too important, especially for expansionist, to not research it. Obviously it's a judgment call if we get to about halfway before finding a GH.

The dotmap is fine. It's almost exactly what I had in mind. I would just move the Light Blue site 1N or 1NW to be on the river.

After these sites are settled then the fresh water to the Northwest and Northeast should be high on our list of priorities.

One thing puzzled me though. Barbs are supposed to be raging but I haven't seen any, yet. :)

Ted

denyd

Oct 14, 2003, 06:23 PM

One thing about spearmen and barbarians.

If we don't have many of the first, you can be sure we'll see lots of the other when the age changes!

I like the idea of moving the light blue X N to take advantage of the grassland.

If I'm correct the plan is:

City # 1 - settlers & workers
City # 2 - workers & settlers
City # 3 barracks & warriors

Any ideas for the next couple of cities?

Current science is Writing at 40 turn pace. Since we've gotten a pretty good idea that ships won't be very important, let's let the AI go for Map Making and concentrate on another tech branch. How about Philosophy & Code of Laws and Republic then a revolt to improve worker performance and income. If we can get the spices connected, we shouldn't have any happiness problems (though another luxury would be nice). The nearest are the dyes to the west and the silks to the NW.

I'm also wondering about a swordsman (10-15) war against either Carthage for dyes or Ottoman for incense. Carthage has nicer land, but we'd be facing NM's. I'd rather take out the Ottoman and not have to worry about the Siphai later in the game (of course, if Siphai's are an issue, we've probably got lots of other problems). Maybe a quick Persian elimination before Immortals get rolling might not be a bad idea. That would leave the swordsmen in a good position to move on India before the War Elephants arrive on the scene.

A quick look at our opponents UU shows:
France - Musketeer (MA) - a mainly defensive UU
Zulu - Impi (early AA) - already passed their prime
Egypt - War Chariot (AA) - don't fear this one
Ottoman - Siphai (late MA) - hopefully Ottoman history by then
Persia - Immortal (AA) - have to watch out for this one
India - War Elephant (early MA) - can be trouble
Carthage - Num Merc (early AA) - Very good defender w/ok attack
[Yet to meet these]
Rome - Legionaire (AA) - Very good at both attack / defend
Spain - Conquistador (late MA) - a waste of UU

Based on that, it's probably a good plan to move on the Persia / India duo early with swords and use the Ansars for the rest starting with the Ottoman.

Thoughts & comments??

:beer:

LordKestrel

Oct 14, 2003, 06:26 PM

I'll play and post in the next 1-2 hours.

LordKestrel

Oct 14, 2003, 07:07 PM

I have the game, just looking at our plan, will play shortly.

EDIT: Thoughts about your map Denyd:

If we're doing RCP, I'd say a 4/7 would be better than a 5/8. It gives you two good close circles of defendable cities, and then we can expand out from there. Plus, the southwest horses should be on the hill next to the river as opposed to one tile off like you had. Here is output from the crp ring tool:

http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-2190_settle_rings.jpg

LordKestrel

Oct 14, 2003, 09:50 PM

Inherited Turn - 2190BC
Look around, everything looks fine. Military advisor is warning about barbarian tribes near Makkah however.
We know 7 civs, leaving two that we haven't heard from yet.
Our score of 92 puts us just ahead of India, and well behind everyone else :(
All 5 cities on the Top 5 chart are at size 1, so the AI just popped a bunch of settlers. We'll run out of room before too long. Our population of 5 is #1 in the world, but we're already losing the land battle (8th).

Hit enter....

Realize that someone turned on speedy AI movement, as I watch them go flying by. Barbarian appears next to the scout that is just west of our mountain range.
Carthage Settler shows up on the cluster of 3 Wool between our two civs.

While looking at the preferences, I noticed that someone had the gov on by default. Unless we're also going to automate all of our workers, and just sit back while the computer plays both sides for us, the governor should NEVER be on. I also turned on the animate friend/enemy moves, so that we can see what the other civs are doing.

1. - 2150BC
MM Makkah to produce the Settler next turn, as it grows as well.

Plant the settler where he stands, as a 5 ring city won't hurt if we go with 4 later.
Diriyah founded, producing 2/2 food/shields, so start on a quick warrior to defend against the pesky barbs.

Move western scout4 further west away from the barb.
Scout2 near the soon to be Carthage wool heads towards the great dark frontier.
South-Southwest scout3 finds spices near the horses down there.
Far west scout1 heads down the penninsula to see if any civ ended up stuck down there.
Conscript warrior exploring in the northeast finds some Iron half a dozen tiles northeast of Delhi.

All civs are still broke. Egypt is the wealthiest with 25 gold ( I wonder where that came from ;)), but we'd be selling short if we traded.

9/1/0, 199 gold, +11gpt, Writing due in 32.

IBT - Carthage settler moves north out of our view, but will likely settle on the northern wool.

2. - 2110BC
Makkah completes settler. Size 3, growth in 3. 5 spt, so start warrior, due in 2.
Medinah complete worker. Size 1, growth in 7, 1 spt, start worker due in 10.
Worker at Medinah finishes irrigating the flood plains.

Settler starts west for the olives. Warrior moves with him, no need to raise lux.

Scout2 heads south, spots a 6th! wool near Carthage. They already have one hooked up.
Scout4 heads west some more, finds a nice city spot on the west side of that lake north of Carthage.
Scout3 continues south, lots of plains/desert.
Scout1 continues down the penninsula.
Our intrepid warrior hacks his way through the forest northeast of Delhi.

Newly built worker2 moves onto desert goats to road them for the extra cash.
Worker1 starts irrigating the second flood plain near Madinah.

No trade opportunities.

IBT - Barb warrior moves towards Delhi :D

3. - 2070BC
Conscript warrior blunders his way through the mountains, and ends up next to another pissed off Pictish warrior.
Scout1 explorers what is likely a dead end penninsula.
Scout4 is working through the jungle north of Carthage.
Scout2 finds some goats south of Carthage.
Scout3 finds a pair of warriors, luckily on the first move, and quickly about faces.

Is it just me, or is Carthage loaded? They have 6 wool, dyes, fresh water, goats, iron, horses and some really nice bonus grassland. If we don't watch out, they'll become a monster. They've already irrigated 10+ plains, and roaded their country. With all the hills wool around it, Utica will become a monster, with a number of tiles producing 3/3 food/shields (in Republic).
We need to cripple them soon. Of course, they have a monster of a UU, and both their cities are on hills.

Trading goes nowhere. Persia picked up 25 gold, so the camps are definitely out there.

IBT - 2 Spanish warrior go barb hunting, an unescorted Zulu settler follows our scout down the penninsula, and another barb arrives near Delhi.

4. - 2030BC
Makkah builds Warrior, start on Settler. Due in 6, growth to size 4 in 1. 5spt.
Newly built Warrior fortifies in Makkah.

Scout2 finds some Olives near Egypt, but lots and lots of desert.
Conscript finds the Ocean.
Scout4 is discovering more jungle.
The penninsula near Scout1 turns out not to be one, but just a large lake. Discovers on the coast near Zululand.
Scout3 wanders the trackless desert, and discovers a cluster of 3 goats.

Spain has 1 gold, and is down Pottery, The Wheel, Iron Working and Mysticism. She is Cautious.

India has two workers and 10 gold for trade. He is down Masonry, Pottery, The Wheel, Iron Working and Mysticism. He likely doesn't know anyone else to still have his 10 gold and be down so many techs.
I trade Masonry and Pottery for *both* workers and his 10 gold. Those were our least valuable techs, and we pick up to slaves, so I feel it was worth it. There is no way we could've made that had he known anyone else.

Slaves start working on a road towards the hilly goats and Diriyah.

9/1/0 240 gold +10gpt, Writing due in 29.

IBT - Zulu scout shows up east?! of Makkah. They likely know everyone if they already have scouts coming back from the east.
Barb warrior on the outskirts of Diriyah's cultural bounds, but will build in 1.
A pair of barbs head towards Egypt/Carthage.

5. - 1990BC
Scout2 heads away from the not so friendly barbs.
Scout1 circling back towards unexplored territory.
Scout3 still looking in the desert.
Scout4 exploring near the Spanish lands.
Conscript is running from the barbs ;)

France has a worker, but they want Mysticism, Pottery + gold for it, so I decline.

IBT - Barb near Diriyah decides to head towards the warrior/settler that are about to plant.
Barb shows up southwest of Madinah.
Uskudar planted next to the close horses on the southeast. We'll have to grab the far south ones.

6. - 1950BC
Diriyah completes warrior, starts warrior (due in 5, growth in 5).
Newly built warrior fortifes in Diriyah.
Worker1 and worker2 both finish their tasks, head to Makkah to improve it (this could be a 4 turn settler factory eventually).

Scout1 will try and slip through the Zulu lands towards the unxplored.
Scout2 exploring south hoping to find the Romans.
Scout3 finds the southern ocean, and what could be a decent fishing village site one day.
Scout4 clearing jungle.
Conscript wandering.

No trades.

IBT - Both Spanish warriors redlined while killing barbs.
Barb near Diriyah can't decide what to attack, and heads back towards Diriyah.
Zulu scout moving down the mountain range to our east.

7. - 1910BC
Damascus planted next to Olives. Starts warrior, due in 5, growth in 10.

Scout1 discovers that the Zulu have Furs hooked up.
Scout2 finds the Southern Ocean as well, so the Romans may not be south.
Scout3 working his way along the coast.
Scout4 finds a several square clearing of grassland among the jungle.
Conscript plodding along.

France learns Iron Working.
Ottomans and Persia are even with us techwise, but both are broke, so likely researching at max. We're still at 9/1/0, 274 gold, +14gpt. Due in 26.

IBT - Conscript brutally murdered by barbarian warriors.
Before he died, an Indian settler/warrior combo was spotted heading for the Iron near them.
Barb movement, but they haven't attacked us yet. Looks like they're heading to pillage near Makkah.

8. - 1870BC
Warrior4 steps out of Diriyah to lure the barb back that way, and away from the workers who we can't protect just yet.
Madinah changes from worker due in 2 to warrior due in 2, as we need defense.

Scout4 discovers that the clearing is pretty large, and has running water.
Scout2 searching the dark.
Scout3 has the misfortune of running from one barb, and ends up ending his turn next to another.
Scout1 working his way through the nicely roaded and mined Zulu lands.

Slaves begin Irrigating plains near Makkah.

Egypt has learned Iron Working.
Persia has an extra 25 gold (52). Still even on techs.
Carthage has horses hooked up (colony).
Spain picked up 25 gold (26).

IBT - Scout3 is killed.
Barb warrior heads south down the western mountains towards Makkah.

9. - 1830BC
Makkah completes settler, starts warrior. Size 3, 4fpt/5spt. Growth in 3, warrior in 2.

Settler heads east to the spices. No escort yet, as there is a barb 2 squares from Makkah, and we don't want it pillaged.
Diriyah warrior tries to lure the barb to attack him.

Scout2 finds some goats in the fog, but no Rome.
Scout1 is walking through the forest.
Scout4 finds some dyes next to the grassland clearing in the thick jungle west of our civ.

Spain has learned Writing! We are up Communications with Egypt, India, Zulu and Ottomans. Also up Pottery, The Wheel, Iron Working and Mysticism. We have 24 turns to go on our research, so a trade would help quite a bit.

I can get Writing for communication with Ottomans and Egypt, Mysticism, Pottery and 18 gold. I want to keep India isolated for now, so no communcation with him, and I'd like to keep Iron and Horses hidden for as long as possible, so I don't want to trade them. This is a little stiff to pay for at 2nd rate, so I hold off for now. Persia is probably researching this at max as well, so they should have it in the next turn or two. Everyone else is broke, so I can't even buy it and hope to trade it.

IBT - Barb warrior moves next to Makkah, threatening the city along with the workers next to it.
Barb moves next to Madinah.

10. - 1790BC
Madinah completes warrior, set to warrior, due in 5.

I take a gamble, and our warrior in Makkah kills the barb warrior.
Newly build warrior from Madinah heads to escort the settler.
Diriyah warrior heads back towards home.
Scout2 has cleared most of the southern fog, so the Romans must be in the far south east under the Ottomans.
Scout1 and Scout4 meet up and find some more dyes in the jungle.

Persia doesn't have writing? I would've thought they would research/trade it last turn. Everyone is still broke, so we can't trade for it.

The trading is the same as last turn. It's not worth buying Writing when Spain has a monopoly on it. If there were civs flush with cash, sure, but not with only Persia having money, and them likely researching writing anyways, so we'd get shafted in any trade.

315 gold, +13gpt, Writing in 23.

I'm hoping to let Makkah grow a little, and be a 5-7 settler factory. At that size, it could produce the requisite 8 shields per turn, and working both flood plains, produce the 5 food per turn. It'll take 20 turns to get the land improved though, but it can be done.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-BC1790.zip)

Here are the pics (all are 1600x1200):

Zoomed out of our land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-1790BC_zoomedout_homeland.jpg)

Zoomed out west (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-1790BC_zoomedout_west.jpg)

Our pitiful homeland (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-1790BC_closeup_homeland.jpg)

The Mighty Egyptian and Carthaginian land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-1790BC_closeup_egyptcarthage.jpg)

denyd

Oct 14, 2003, 10:33 PM

I got it

I'll review the current conditions and update this post later

:scan:

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 02:48 AM

good moves jimmydean :thumbsup:

Well, it looks as if we don't have it all our own way. The arrival of barbs and the potential of Carthage & the Ottomans will ensure that we have a fun time quite soon :)

Ted

denyd

Oct 15, 2003, 03:13 AM

First the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-BC1525.zip (The SAVE)

Then what happened:

Turn 0: 1790 BC – Quick review of situation – about the same size as most other AI – behind writing to Spain – so off we go – decide to switch to settler in Mekkah

Turn 1: 1790 BC – Dinyah completes Warrior6 starts barracks – Scout2 S in desert – Scout1 N in jungle – Scout4 NW-N heading for southern Spain – Warrior2 N to check out dark territory – Warrior1 returns to Mekkah – Worker1 assist Indian workers in completing irrigate – Indian Workers NW and begin mine – Worker2 joins Indian Workers – trade Mysticism + Pottery + The Wheel to Spain for Writing – research Philosophy – change slider to 100 science (due in 10 turns – bank is 328g + 0gpt)

Turn 2- 1725 BC – Damascus completes Warrior7 – starts barracks – Warrior7 hunting barbs – Warrior4 MP in Diniyah – Workers 1&2 move to connect to Diniyah – Warrior1 MP in Mekkah – Settler & Warrior5 E to mountain – Scout1 W in jungle – Scout4 W-NW avoiding barb – Scout2 E-NE in plains – Only thing interesting in trade talks is Ottoman have Roman contact

Turn 3 – 1700 BC – Persian Warrior/Settler turn W in front of Warrior2 – Worker1&2 build road – Warrior2 N – Warrior7 S – Settler & Warrior5 NE – Scout2 NE-NE finds horses & spices - Scout1 W completes jungle survey – Scout4 N-N – Nothing available to trade

Turn 4 – 1675 BC – Warrior7 SW – Warrior5/Settler NE – Warrior2 NW – Scout4 N-NW – Scout1 E – Scout2 E sees barb then runaway N

Turn 5 – 1650 BC – Mekkah builds settler starts another – Medinah builds Warrior8 starts warrior – settler sent to Medinah to join Warrior8 on journey – Warrior7 S – Workers1&2 complete road move N – Settler/Warrior5 reach city site – Scout1 E – Warrior2 N – Scout4 N-NW spots barb village – Scout2 N-N away from barb – not much to trade

Turn 6 – 1625 BC – Warrior7 S meets Carthage Warrior – Workers1&2 start road – Settler builds Baghdad starts barracks – Warrior5 MP in Baghdad – Warrior2 W completes survey – Scout4 NW-N into Spain territory – Scout1 E – Warrior8 kills barb (takes 1hp damage) – Zulu have Horseback Riding – we’ll wait for the price to drop

Turn 7 – 1600 BC – Indian Workers complete mine sent to road to Baghdad and spices – Warrior8 returns to Medina – Warrior7 S – Warrior6/Settler head SE from Medina – Warrior4 kills barb protecting workers (takes 1hp) - Scout2 N-NE – Scout1 SE – Scout4 NE-E in France – Zulu have acquired Roman contact

Turn 8 – 1575 BC – Warrior4 returns to Diniyah – Workers1&2 complete road move N-NW to road to Damascus – Scout1 E – Scout4 E from France – Scout2 E-E along Ottoman border – Warrior8 MP – Warrior6/Settler to S spices – No new trade opportunities

Turn 9 – 1550 BC – Warrior8 kills barb – Warrior4 MP – Scout4 E-SE in valley – Scout1 E – Scout2 E-SE along Ottoman border – Warrior7 S – Warrior6/Settler SE – Time to trade the other level techs for available cash – Trade Alphabet to Egypt for 25g – Trade Pottery to France for 25g – France tries to blackmail Indian contact, I decline and she backs down

Turn 10 – 1525 BC – switch slider Philosophy due in 1 turn – Mekkah builds Settler starts another – Medinah builds Worker3 starts warrior – Settler sent N to meet Warrior2 – Warrior9 MP – Scout2 cuts corner into Ottoman territory – Scout1 E in jungle – Scout4 S-SE – Warrior6/Settler SW meet barb village – Worker3 SE to road to new city – Our Indian Contact could net both Horseback Riding & Mathematics + gold if next up wants to sell – Philosophy due in 1 – sorry about meeting the barb camp in the south

I'll post a picture and add come analysis tomorrow (later today!!)

:eek:

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 06:24 AM

Roster:
denyd
DaveShack (UP NOW)
TedJackson (Ondeck)
jimmydean

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 06:25 AM

Looks like you guys are proceeding quickly and according to your plan for world domination.;)

Dianthus

Oct 15, 2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by jimmydean
Here is output from the crp ring tool:

I've just been reading this thread (looks interesting guys, keep up the detail :goodjob: ) and this image really stood out. Just a little warning. I noticed that CRpRings seemed to not be showing the Wool resource while playing this GOTM. Nobody else has reported this and I haven't got around to fixing it yet. So, just be aware that you'll need to look at the real Civ screen, not just the CRpRings image, when considering city settlement locations.

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 07:27 AM

Dianthus@ does it have anything to do with the wool resource not having an icon in the luxury list on the city screen? I found that really annoying too. Nice Tool BTW.:goodjob:

Dianthus

Oct 15, 2003, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Dianthus@ does it have anything to do with the wool resource not having an icon in the luxury list on the city screen? I found that really annoying too. Nice Tool BTW.:goodjob:
No, the resource images are stored directly in the .exe. I just display the correct one based on the resource name. I ought to clarify, it does show Wool, but only when the resource filter is turned off. Hopefully no-one is "cheating" and turning it off though ;).

CF, I noticed in the other thread that you were intending to do QSC scores at the 1000 BC point. Are you interested in an app that extracts all of the QSC stats? I've been working on this recently, and I could package it up and send it to you. If you're interested just PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you!

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 08:15 AM

A corrected link to the > save < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-BC1525.zip) :)

I think you just got the prompt & the URL mixed up denyd.

I haven't looked at the save yet but everything looks fine from the turnlog :thumbsup:

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 15, 2003, 10:29 AM

I hadn't noticed it not show wool, but there are so many new resource icons, it's not surprising that I missed it.

And I found out what the fow button did in my last game I played (first that I tried the crp tools), so I knew not to uncheck that and the resource button in this one :)

DaveShack

Oct 15, 2003, 11:53 AM

Got it, but won't be able to play it until around 10pm mst. ;)

denyd

Oct 15, 2003, 12:02 PM

I’m a little more alive since my last post.

A little unexpected free time as our network is down and I can write this locally and post once it gets back. I’ve only got last night’s information to go from so I hoping the next turn haven’t been played or most of this post is irrelevant.

Now on to the game, here’s a picture of our current empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_1525BC1.jpg

As I mentioned in my last post, we probably should trade our Indian contact for Mathematics + Horseback Riding + $$$. Another AI is bound to find them eventually; the chance would then be lost.

I switched from minimum to maximum science after getting Writing. It won’t do us much good to have a large treasury if we end up spending it to catch up to the AI’s later on. I’d like to propose getting The Republic ASAP, followed by a revolution to improve worker productivity and income.

How about some ideas for a city placement strategy for the next 6-8 cities and a military strategy?

My thoughts on military plans and city production: We should have all cities except Mecca & Medina assigned to build veteran warriors. Once we have 10 built, hook up the iron. Upgrade them to swordsmen. Unhook the iron and keep building veteran warriors. Use them to acquire the nearby Ottoman cities to put a crimp in their growth. Then send those swordsmen, plus any new ones, to assimilate Persia and India. Mecca & Medina should continue to produce settlers & workers.

Scout1 should probably be going S to the dark territory. Scout2 should keep going past Ottoman looking for Rome. Scout4 should probably head E to check out southern India.

I had planned on using the settler/Warrior6 combo to claim the spices S of Medina and use Medina’s workers to connect it. The new settler and Warrior2 should probably meet somewhere NE of this Diriyah to add to our NE empire. Any new Settlers should probably go SE or NE to expand in those directions. Rather then extend to the SE horses; let’s take the Ottoman city to acquire them.

Here are some possible new city sites:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_Plan2.jpg

Red: For the current Settler/Warrior6 combo
Dark Blue: For the new Settler & Warrior2 combo
Southern Green: For Warrior7 and next settler
Pink – Western Green – Orange – Teal – Light Blue should probably be the order of settling

Well networks back up time to post this.

EDIT: Added after reading the newest posts.

Ted thanks for correcting the link.

I’m the “governor on” person. My other GOTM is pretty far along and whenever I take an AI city I want the governor on until the resistance is done and I guess that setting carried over from my last game. I also turned the animations on so I can watch the AI movement, and the added buttons (as I use some of them). I also turn on the map grid to make directions and counting tiles easier. I hope nobody minds these changes as I use them all the time.

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 12:13 PM

denyd@ Republic does not speed worker movement. Just Democracy.

Also you have conflicting things in your strategy. If you want to do the perpetual swordsman upgrade, you can't be spending money on research. Swords are 40g per. You don't even have enough for 10 in your treasury right now. Researching at max will not let you build up cash.

Regarding preferences: Most of the preferences are completely optional. If you have things you cant stand it should be up to you to check the prefs before beginning play.

Governors however should not be used unless the team agrees. I wasn't sure if you were including this option as one of the changes that you "hope no one minds, you use them all the time".

While I don't want to get into the team strategy, I would like to mention this: Your UU is a horse based unit. Do you really want to commit to the swordsmen path that heavily? Maybe it would be a good strategy to do this to Acquire horses but not much after that. The upgrade program to Ansar is much more expensive than swords so you would need a lot of cash on hand if you go that route.

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 12:17 PM

Personally,

I'd rather see more cities on fresh water as that'll be of more immediate benefit rather than following RCP blindly.

That would also mean the Red site moving 1NE to be on fresh water and the Purple/Mauve 1E, 1SE.

Just my (usual) random thoughts :)

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 12:25 PM

Actually (thanks to your pretty pics and Dianthus's CRPring tool) it looks like a 10 ring instead of 11 would include the Theveste and Uskadar (the horse town), let you move red NE. I suspect that would cramp the 8 ring if you filled the 8 ring like you should. But if you're going for maximum coverage with minimum number of towns (faster domination) you could found a minimum (maybe 4 per) in the 5 and 8 rings and then fill the 10 ring at city rank of 9.

Of course then you need a leader and some conqured land to rush the FP somewhere else. See why I hate RCP from the beginning?

denyd

Oct 15, 2003, 12:54 PM

Ted: I like both changes. I was thinking more about balanced city coverage, but the fresh water gain makes your choices better. The city placement tool from Dianthus (kudos for a quality product) is new to me and it’ll take a while to adjust from my usual OCP to RCP with intelligence. I expect we’ll be planning a palace jump (to take advantage of the FP Corruption Bug) so RCP really loses its benefit at that point.

CF: Actually, I meant tile production instead of worker production and you’re right, getting to The Republic ASAP and upgrading troops is not possible. Probably, a science push to Republic should be followed by minimum science on Polytheism (?). Also thanks for the reminder about the UU. We should probably make it a priority to bring horses into our empire either by taking Urskador or settling the ones to the SE, so that developing military can be started.

CF: About governors, I only use them on recently conquered towns and turn them off once the resistance is over. My choice was left toggled from a recent Korean campaign and was used when I began the game. The other choices are easy enough to turn on/off when getting the game so as not to be an issue. My ‘hope no one minds’ was in reference to the grid display.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 01:09 PM

@denyd
Actually, The Purple/Mauve could go 2E to stay on the 10.

<edit>
I agree in general with your Military plan but consider unhooking the Iron to be exploitative. I'm not going being pedantic about this but would prefer that we played "Honourably".
</edit>

@CF
The screenshot shows 382gp in the bank. Just right for upgrading 10 Warriors :)

I agree that we need to go the Horse route but we'll probably have to use Swords in the short term as Ansars are still off in the distance.

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by TedJackson
[B@CF
The screenshot shows 382gp in the bank. Just right for upgrading 10 Warriors :)[/B]
The screen shot shows 382g +0gpt. Enough for 9!;)

My point was that with the +0gpt, upgrading would be a one time deal.

I think 10 (or 9 as it would be) swords would be more than enough to capture horses. Meanwhile, getting to Republic and shutting off research until Chivalry could be researched at min would leave plenty of gold for upgrading Ansars.

Anyway, enough of me butting in. You all will surely contest the highest of GOTM scores, or Medal Series scores (despite a little pre map knowledge.)

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by ControlFreak
The screen shot shows 382g +0gpt. Enough for 9!;) The settlers in this screenshot from the 1525BC save might change the gpt situation slightly :D
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-1525AD-MA.jpg

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 15, 2003, 02:36 PM

I would say that we upgrade enough Swordsmen to take Uskudar and either Sogut or Arbela. This gets us Horses, and puts a crimp in the Ottomans and Persian plans. Persia we need catapults for, as that 4 attack will be very tough to defend against.

ControlFreak

Oct 15, 2003, 02:52 PM

Persia only gets an attack of 4 if they connect their iron.

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Persia only gets an attack of 4 if they connect their iron. :D :D :D

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 15, 2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Persia only gets an attack of 4 if they connect their iron.

You are correct, however I don't know how feasible that is. They've had Iron Working for some time, so if they have any Iron, they've produced a few Immortals by now. If Iron is deep within their territory, we'll have to either abuse ROP to get there, or slowly and painfully make our way to the Iron source.

I'm at work, so I can't look at the map, so I don't know where their Iron (if there is any) is located. It could be they don't have any sources nearby, which makes them a juicy high priority target.

TedJackson

Oct 15, 2003, 03:45 PM

They don't have Iron connected. I checked the Trade Advisor on the 1525BC save.

Ted

denyd

Oct 15, 2003, 03:53 PM

There's a visible source NE of one of there cities but it's not connected and not within anyone's boundries (yet). There is also a visible mountain at the edge of FOW, but no iron there. Also the last 2 Persian units we met (about 3 turns ago) were both warriors, so it's unlikely they've got it hooked up yet.

If there was a way to weaken Persia and defend our cities, that's something we should consider. The optimum would be to eliminate Persia with swordsmen and assimilate their cities. With a couple more cites to the south we would then cut the world into 2 pieces East: India, Ottoman & Roman & West: France, Spain, Carthage, Zulu & Egypt, allowing us to control trade routes until Navigation. Also we would be able to work on one side and not have worry about other AI settlers creeping into culture gaps.

We also need to think about sneaking in a temple build in each city to get the culture expansion needed for domination. When I play a domination goal game, I usually decide who the 800lb gorilla is and conquer around him. So far, we don't seem to have one yet.

One more little thing, if we happen to get a Great Leader, what's our best usage for one. An army to allow for Heroic Epic and maybe more leaders, save for a rush built FP, save to and AA wonder (Great Lib for tech or Colossus for sheilds) or a MA wonder (Sun Tzu for barracks or Leo's to save on upgrades).

My thought would be either any army since we expect wars most of the game or GLib to allow for min research/max $$.

Good luck tonight, I'll probably check in around 10pm PDT and see what's up.

:beer:

PS: I may not be available to play all day Saturday and Sunday until noon (relatives visiting), but I'll check in for progress reports. After Sunday PM, my wife and son will be out of town for 9 days, so playing time won't be a problem. Of course, I'm also planning on completing GOTM 24, Medal Play 6-2. :eek:

LordKestrel

Oct 15, 2003, 11:01 PM

I've always been a fan of using the first leader for an army, but with as dry as this map is, the Pyramids would probably be a superb idea. The tech pace has been relatively slow, so I don't know how useful the Library would be, and if it's built nearby, we can always conquer it.

Republic or Monarchy would be good governments to switch to. Republic is my choice, but as we're Religious, we can easily switch from one to the other if the need arises.

DaveShack

Oct 16, 2003, 02:06 AM

Save file: 1275BC.

NOTE: please save at the end of 1000bc turn for comparative scoring with QSC.

1275BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_BC1275.zip)

1525 BC Preturn

Trade check: We have 382g

Egypt (polite) has HBR, 1g, we have comm. India, Writing
Ottomans (cautious) have comm. Romans, Math, 10g. We have Comm. India
France (polite) has nothing, we have Writing, comm. India
India (polite) has nothing, we have comm. Egypt, Persia, Zulu, France, Carthage, Ottomans, Spanish; Wheel, Writing, Mysticism
Carthage (cautious) has 28g, we have writing, comm. India
Zulu (polite) have HBR, 26g, Comm. Romans, we have comm. India
Persia (cautious) has Math, Comm. Romans, we have comm. India
Spain (cautious) has HBR, Comm. Romans, we have Comm. India

Military:

Egypt: we are weak
India: average
Persia: average
Zulu: we are weak
France: we are weak
Carthage: we are weak
Ottomans: we are weak
Spain: we are weak

Adjust slider to 30%, Philosophy in 1 turn, 382g, +9gpt.
Barb horseman near Damascus, Pictish camp near Madinah

IBT: Ottomans complain about troops near Iznik.
Carthage takes the barb camp.
Barb approaches Iznik

Philosophy learned, start on Code of Laws (initially 40)
Splash: Ottomans building the Oracle

1500 BC: Turn 1, 391+9gpt 7.3.0 Code of Laws in 40
Science to 90%, +0gpt, CoL in 18.

scout2 SE, SE. Warrior2 E, to expose the black between the
blue and magenta X's on the proposed rcp8 ring.
Worker2 comes up next, check Madinah and see we have excess
food this turn, MM from irrigated floodplain to olives to
get an extra shield. Worker reduced from 4 to 3 turns.
Worker2 starts on road (enough tiles are improved already)
Warrior7 goes to the mountain and takes over escort from warrior6,
who heads toward the dark green site to clear fog.
Scout1 S towards border between Carthage and Zulu.
Scout4 heads deeper into Spain to get resource location info.
Settler N toward dark blue rcp8 site.
Diriyah warrior covers the settler, we have barb horses...
Split up the worker crew at Diriyah, at least if a barb comes
we won't lose both... One will continue the Damascus road, the
other will road the goats.

Trade check:

Egypt HBR+1g <> Contact India
Ottomans Math+10g+Contact Rome <> Philosophy
France has nothing to give
India has nothing to give
Carthage 53g <> Contact India
Zulu 13g+HBR <> Contact India
Spain contact Rome + HBr <> Contact India + 29g.
Persia Math <> Contact India + 38g

Do Zulu trade first, 13g+hbr <> India
Carthage now gives us 49g <> India
Persia Math <> contact with India, HBR, 33g
Net: We gave contact with India for 29g, HBR, Math

End of turn 1, 1500 BC, 420g+0gpt 1.9.0 CoL in 19.

IBT: Barb horse approaches Baghdad

Turn 2, 1475BC

Warrior6 E, Warrior7+settler onto spices, Spain lets our scout walk
right through Madrid area without complaint. Scout2 continues toward presumed
location of Rome in the SE. Settler and temp escort go N.

CoL jumped down to 14 turns, so check trade again :)
Nobody got it so it must have been population growth.

Wonder check, France building Pyramids, Zulu and Ottomans building Oracle.

End of turn 2, 1475BC, 420g+0gpt, 1.9.0, CoL in 14.

IBT: Ottomans request an audience: Offer is contact Rome <> Philosophy
Thanks, but no thanks, they only have 18g to offer in addition, and
if we're right about where Rome is our scout will get there soon anyway.

Turn 3, 1450BC, 420g+0gpt, 1.9.0, CoL in 13.

A Roman archer has landed within sight of Scout2.
Rome is flat broke with 3 connected wines but no trade route.
We are up Wheel, Mysticism, Math, Philosophy, and contact with
Egypt, India, France, Carthage.

Settler reaches designated site on lake. Riyadh founded on spices,
producing Barracks, due in 40 turns. Scout1 S. Scout4 leaves
Spanish territory before they get a chance to toss us out.

check for trades for the Roman contact
Everyone we could trade it to are dirt poor already...

Score check, we are 3rd with 153, above us are Egypt at 159 and Rome at 199. Surprising that Rome would be that far ahead and behind so far in tech.

MM Madinah back to a irrigated floodplain, worker in 1 and a shield overrun
MM Diriyah, barracks reduced from 2 turns to 1
Baghdad governor was on, can't improve with MM (waste eats the available extra)
Riyadh already has 2 corrupted shields

End of Turn 3, 420g+1gpt (MM), CoL in 13.

Turn 4, 1425BC, 421g+1gpt, CoL in 12.

Diriyah finishes barracks, starts warrior (3).
Jeddah founded on lake site, producing barracks (40)
Madinah produces worker, starts worker (5)
Scouts scout, find barb camp near Spain, Iron between Ottomans and Rome.

Sell Carthage contact with rome for 29g.

End of Turn 4, 450g-1gpt, CoL in 12.

Turn 5, 1400BC, 449g-1gpt, CoL in 11.

Scout runs from barb, regular warrior retreats towards Madinah workers

Turn 6, 1375BC, 448g-1gpt, CoL in 10.

Mekkah completes settler, starts warrior. Feeling uncomfortable about doing any more settlers without escorts. Detach current warrior and send with settler to the SE, to the cyan rcp5 site.

Sent a scout through Roman territory to see what is there.

Found a barb camp near our next settlement spot.

IBT: Caesar complains, we apologize.

Turn 7, 1350BC, 447g-1gpt, CoL in 9.

[list]
Diriyah completes warrior, starts another.
Trade check, not much has changed.

IBT; ottomans do us a favor and knock off 2 of the barbs in the camp

Turn 8, 1325BC, 446g-1gpt, CoL in 8.

Makkah finishes warrior, starts settler.
Warrior dies trying to capture the camp :(

Turn 9, 1300BC, 445g-1gpt, CoL in 6.

Check trade, did someone get it? No change in trade opportunities.

Diriyah finishes warrior, starts another. Warrior to Makkah
for escort duty. Madinah finishes worker, start worker, MM to food.
New worker goes toward iron to do the 1st tile of connecting it,
so we'll be ready when the time comes.

IBT: A persian scout gets whacked by a barb horse, which lands
one tile from our workers.

Turn 10, 1275BC, 444g-2gpt, CoL in 5

Damascus finishes barracks, starts warrior.
Dhahran founded on cyan rcp5 site. Producing warrior, the barb action is heating up.

End of turn 10, 1275BC, 444g-2gpt, CoL in 4

Rome has Map Making, 33g <> We have Philosophy
Zulu Map Making <> Philosophy
Carthage nothing <> Philosophy
India nothing <> Math, Philosophy
France nothing <> Philosophy
Ottomans Map Making, 32g <> Philosophy
Persia Map Making, 33g, 2 workers <> Philosophy
Egypt Map Making <> Philosophy
Spain Map Making, 11g <> Philosophy

I saw somewhere that it's customary to leave last turn trades to the next player, so have fun! :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_BC1275_empire.jpg

TedJackson

Oct 16, 2003, 04:57 AM

Got it

Playing this evening (+8hrs). Looks OK from the log, I'll post any additional comments before I play.

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 16, 2003, 06:16 AM

denyd
DaveShack
TedJackson (UP NOW)
jimmydean (Ondeck)

ControlFreak

Oct 16, 2003, 06:25 AM

DaveShack@ That was one of the best turn log's I've ever read. Great job recording as well as playing. You guys are doing great.

Originally posted by DaveShack:
I saw somewhere that it's customary to leave last turn trades to the next player
Ahem...could it be you read my post to AlanH in the other thread.:nono: ;)

It's customary to leave the trades so you don't strap the next player with:
A twenty turn deal where they wanted to declare war
No cash for upgrade/rush/embassy etc.
No options to complete their own trading on their turn.

Since you've all agreed on rushing to Republic and there probably aren't any gpt or resource trades available yet, you probably could have done the deals. I just think it's nicer to post what you think should happen, let the team weigh in, and then have the next player do what is agreed upon. If you really feel something is important and don't want to risk a veto, the last turn is still technically your turn and you could make the trade.

TedJackson

Oct 16, 2003, 08:33 AM

I've had a chance to look at the save now. Good work DaveShack :thumbsup:

Thoughts and Ideas
Starting at the top and moving around clockwise we have:
Persia to the North with no Iron (yet) - has to be our first target, preferably before they get Iron hooked up.
India is a long way to the Northeast and won't be a factor until MA.
Southeast are the Ottoman - not a real threat until Sipahi but are hogging our Horses and it looks as if we might be able to choke the Romans between Sogut & Iznik.
We have open land to the South. We should claim that ASAP:)
Southwest is Egypt - a little too far away to bother us now but will be a valuable Training ground for our Ansars.
Carthage to the West with Mercs - our first Target when we have our Ansars online.
Northwest is Spain - no threat at all, we can wipe them out at our leisure.

I propose to upgrade the Warriors ASAP and tackle Persia before they get Iron & Immortals. Warming up at Pasagardae (probably autorazed) then straight on to Persepolis which I'll occupy.

Depending on available forces it might be possible to secure the Silks at Susa leaving Persia with just Arbela, which we can take out with our second wave of troops, and the mystery city Northeast of Persepolis.

Then we could turn our attention to the Ottomans :)

I might manage to get the fighting started but it will surely last into the next turns so I wanted to give you all a chance to approve before I start playing.

Comments welcome.

Ted

denyd

Oct 16, 2003, 11:16 AM

DaveShack: Great set of turns.

TedJackson: I like the idea of getting to Persia before the Immortals are a factor. Getting the silk at Susa would help with happiness when the Republic is formed. I checked and there are also horses SW of Persepolis, but we’d need to bring a settler to build a city near them. That would allow us to leave the Ottoman as a Roman Buffer, in case Caesar gets aggressive. Either Spain or India would then become a viable second target as both are weaker than us and might fall quickly. The Indian ivory would be a nice addition. As for trading, if we expect to stomp on Persia, let’s wait and get Map Making & their workers in the peace treaty. Just a reminder that there are three techs to go (Polytheism, Currency & Construction) before the age change and the barbarian coming out party, so we need to think about cleaning up any nearby camps.

I'll be back with more thoughts at lunch (PDT).

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 16, 2003, 02:30 PM

Pre-flight Checks... OK :goodjob:

Pre-turn
Can cash buy MM from:
Rome - 161gp
Zulu - 165gp
Ottoman - 156gp
Persia - 161gp
Egypt - 156gp
Spain - 156gp
I don't want to buy from Persia or Ottoman for Military reasons, Rome & Zulu are too expensive so that leaves Spain & Egypt both at 156gp.
Spain value their WM at 95gp, Egypt value theirs at 92gp - so it would seem best to go with Egypt.
Adding Philosophy into the deal I cant get WM, TM & MM from Egypt for Philosophy + 48gp while France wants Philosophy + 51gp.
Renegotiating Peace with Egypt:
Sell Peace Treaty & Philosophy to Egypt for WM, TM, MM + 26gp :D
Now to see how much we can get for our WM
Sell WM to Rome for WM, TM + 33gp (broke, no gpt available)
Sell WM to Spain for WM, TM + 11gp (broke, no gpt available)
Sell WM to Persia for WM, TM + 33gp (broke, no gpt available - not that I would have taken it) - Persia have 2 Workers for sale, I might come back for them
Sell WM to Ottoman for WM, TM + 32gp (broke, no gpt available)
Sell WM to India for WM + TM (want to see what's over there)
We have 579gp in the Bank and our monopoly on Philosophy is still intact

Press button...
We get the Forbidden Palace message
Barb Horse appears 2SE of Jeddah, threatening Worker South of Jeddah
Diriyah Warrior - Spear (escort for Swordsmen, saves them having to defend as well as attack)

1 - 1250BC
Worker retreats to Jeddah (best move available, still not good)
Scout4 heads for Damascus to be sacrificed after the current Warrior is completed
Worker (2N Madinah) road
Warrior (Makkah) N (on his way to Diriyah)
2 Workers (Madinah) N to join road party next turn
Warrior2 heads SW ignoring barb (only a 56% chance of a win)
Scout2 S
Warrior fort Diriyah
Hawk WM

IBT
Reg Warrior (Jeddah ) kills barb Horse (1/3) - phew!
The people love me

2 - 1225BC
Worker (Jeddah) S
Scout SE (Damascus) and disbanded for 2 shields (Warrior next turn)
2 Workers (N Madinah) N to join road party
Warrior (N Makkah) moves to E Diriyah where he can either carry on North to Jeddah or West to Diriyah
Scout1 SE, E
Warrior2 SW
Scout2 SW
Hawk WM
Egypt has Philosophy

IBT
Damascus Warrior - Warrior
Baghdad Barracks - Warrior
India starts Oracle
Barb Horse appears 2NW of Jeddah

3 - 1200BC
Scout 1 2SE
Warrior fort Damascus
Warrior (E Diriyah) N to Worker
Worker (S Jeddah) road
Warrior2 SW
Scout2 2SW
Worker (Road Gang) W (Iron mountain) - Bugger! spies Barb horse 1W, 1SW & barb Warrior 1NW, 1W
Research 70% (Col next turn @ +3gpt)
Hawk WM

IBT
We lose our Worker on the Iron mountain to the barb Horse
Reg Warrior at Jeddah kills barb Horse & promotes
Discover CoL - Republic
Makkah Settler - Spear (pop growth needed)
Egypt starts Oracle

4 - 1175BC
The best research rate we can manage is 28 turns @ -4gpt, decide to go 10% @ +21gpt until we have a few more cities
Oops! have a magic mouse moment answering the phone and have to reload from the autosave
The situation is this:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-1175BC.jpg
I move the vet Warrior (N of Makkah), the 2 Workers (2SE of Makkah) and the Settler (Makkah) all to S of Makkah. If the Horse atack then it will be across a River and we should be OK
2 Workers (SW Baghdad) road - SE (Spices)
Warrior (S Jeddah) fort Worker (can also garrison Jeddah if the need arises)
Scout1 E, SE
Scout 2 W,
Warrior2 W
Hawk WM
Buy Slave + WM & TM from Persia for WM + 108gp (he still doesn't have Iron)
Slave N

IBT
Barb Horse and Warrior retreat West ???
Diriyah Spear - Warrior
Dhahran Warrior - Barracks

5 - 1150BC
Warrior (Dhahran) W (meet Settler)
Settler S (en-route to Horses
Road Gang (now only 2 Workers but with vet Warrior escort) W
Scout 1 SE, S
Worker (NE Damascus) Mine - SE
Spear fort Diriyah
Warrior2 W
Slave (N Makkah) NW to Goats on Hill
Scout2 W, NW
Hawk WM

IBT
Barb Horse & Warrior reappear
Madinah Worker - Worker
Damascus Warrior - Warrrior

6 - 1125BC
2 Vet Warriors set off from Damascus heading for the barb camp to the SW
Worker (E Damascus) Mine
Worker (NNW Makkah) road
Road Gang W - not particularly keen on this but we need that Iron
Settler moves to SE Madinah
Warrior (W Dhahran) W
Worker (S Jeddah) road - S,SW, S (Warrior escort follows)
Warrior2 W
Worker (Madinah) moves to S of Makkah
Scout1 S, SE
Scout2 W, NW
Hawk WM

IBT
Barb con Sword attacks Road Gang and is killed in the attempt
Barb Horse SE toward Madinah
Diriyah Warrior - Warrior
Baghdad Warrior - Warrior

7 - 1100BC
Warrior (Baghdad) S (protect Workers)
Warrior (E Madinah) W (in case barb Horse attacks)
Settler S, 2SW (weedy move but I don't want to lose him)
Vet Warrior escorting Road Gang fortifies on Iron mountain
2 Workers start roading Iron
Worker (S Makkah) can't move to join Road Gang as that will bring him in range of the barb Horse. He moves 2SE instead (road to Dhahran)
Worker (& escort, 2N Makkah) move to SE Makkah)
Barb Hunting party S
Warrior (Diriyah) moves to N Makkah
Warrior2 W
Scout1 2SE
Scout2 W, N
Hawk WM
Game locks up during Diplo with India
Get an "Unable to allocate drawbuffer: terminating program" when I try to save
Have to use Task Manager to shut it down then I reboot for safety
reload from autosave, replay as above

IBT
Barb Horse is killed while attacking Madinah
Makkah Spear - Settler
Damascus Warrior - Warrior

8 - 1075BC
Spear (Makkah) S - will eventually stand guard over the Iron
Worker (& escort, SE Makkah) SW, W - on their way to the Iron mountain
Worker (2NW of Dhahran) road
Warrior (S Baghdad) fort
Warrior2 SW (Jeddah)
Barb Hunting party SW
Warrior (Madinah) fort (heal)
Warrior (Madinah) SE
Settler SE
Scout2 NW, W
Warrior (Damascus) 3NE
Hawk WM

IBT
Diriyah Warrior - Warrior
Egypt start Colossus

9 - 1050BC
Warrior fort Diriyah (beginnings of our "Persian Assault Force")
Warrior (W Diriyah) E, fort
Vet warrior vs con Warrior in barb camp - victory and promotion (2/5)
We get 25gp from barb dispersal
Worker (2SE Makkah) W (Iron mountain)
Warrior (S Makkah) moves to N Makkah
Spear (S Makkah) - 2SE (joins Worker)
Warrior fort Jeddah
Warrior (SE Madinah) 2S
Settler SE - spots 2 barb Warriors in the hills E, SE
Scout2 2NW
We seem to have lost Scout1 (must have been a barb Horse)
Hawk WM

IBT
A barb Horse appears out of the FoW and kills our Scout
Damascus Warrior - Warrior
The people love me

10 - 1025BC
Warrior fort Damascus
Warrior (N Makkah) moves to Diriyah to train for the Persian Campaign
Worker (Iron mountain) road
Warrior (Iron mountain) fort
Spear (2NW Dhahran) fort Worker
Barb Hunting party E
Warrior joins Settler as escort
Spices (Baghdad) are now hooked up :)
Hawk WM

I decide to take the extra turn to get us to 1000BC. I hope nobody minds :)

IBT
Iron is connected, at last! Yippee!
Diriyah Warrior - Settler (for the Spices NE of Jeddah, can be vetoed)
Baghdad Warrior - Spear

11 - 1000BC
Warrior (Baghdad) SW, 2W (off to join PAF)
Worker (2NW Dhahran) road - SE (with escort)
Road Gang (& escorts) road - SE
Barb Hunting party E
upgrade 5 vet Swords at Diriyah for 200gp
Settler (& escort S)
Slaves (S Baghdad) road - 2N (Olives on hill)
Hawk WM
Rome are down Philosophy
Zulu are down Philosophy & CoL
Carthage are down Philosophy & CoL
India are down Philosophy & CoL
France are down Philosophy
Egypt are down CoL but have discovered Polytheism this turn
Spain are down CoL
Ottoman are down Philosophy & CoL
Persia are down Philosophy & CoL and still don't have any Iron :)

I leave the tech trading for the next player (not that I think we want Polytheism)
.
QSC stats
8 cities
22 citizens
1 Settler
5 Workers
16 Warriors
2 Spears
5 Swordsmen (so far)
All level 2 techs + Phil, CoL, MM & HBR - researching Republic @10%
Second on the Histograph with a score of 230 vs Rome's 276 (probably made of culture)

Notes
I started playing to get to the point where I could declare war. Obviously the barbs showing up when and where they did threw a spanner in the works :(
We are just about ready to march on Persia if the next player so desires. I started to upgrade the Warriors then decided to top and leave it for the next player.
I didn't manage to plant a single city this turn (more barbs to blame for that). I was heading for the Horses to the South and the Settler is back en-route again.
All in all, it wasn't the set of turns I expected to be playing but that's Civ :)

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-BC1000.zip)

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 16, 2003, 03:10 PM

Looks interesting. I'll see what I can do. We're adding a pair of OC3s at the office tonight, so I likely won't be home until about 04:00 GMT, but I'll play once I do get home.

denyd

Oct 16, 2003, 03:22 PM

A few more idle thoughts:

If we managed to take out the Persians and still have 8 or more swordsmen left, I propose we send them to take out India. India is sitting on some nice land and would be a nice place for a second production core. They've got a luxury (ivory) and a couple of irons, so they could contribute to our happiness and military growth. If there is a horse source up there somewhere, it would be a great Ansar Warrior development center. And if we could fill with cities from Mekkah to the east coast we'd have over 25% of the map to ourselves already. Of course that would require a GL to build the FP and we'd need some luck to get Persia with light casualties and to get the GL, but so far we've done ok with huts and barbs.

For upcoming city placement:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_Plan3.jpg

We should try to:
1. Get a horse site (either dark blue or yellow)
2. Compress Carthage where possible (both dark greens)
3. Complete the southern link (orange)
4. Expand NE (pink & light blue)

As for possible expansions:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_Expand1.jpg

Currently, we've got the red space, if we can take out Persia, we'll get the dark blue. Using settlers, we can grab the southern pink area and create an eastern line of cities to the coast (pink lines) and expand NE towards India (the green area) and if we can take India the light blue area will join the empire.

I just love this new toy...I just spent a lunch hour playing with crayons!!! [dance]

I'll check back tonight, best of luck to all.

:beer:

Edit: While I'm writing this Ted's post showed up!!!

denyd

Oct 16, 2003, 04:14 PM

I just got the chance to review your turns and a nice turn set in spite of the barb hassles.

A couple of items:

1. Why would you trade for both the TM & WM? Wouldn’t the WM contain all the information on the TM?

2. Is there a way to shrink the image sizes? (I’m using MS Paint and saving as .JPG)

3. How much gold do we have in the treasury? Enough for all current warrior upgrades? If not, be sure to upgrade the veterans first.

4. With the iron hooked up, we’ll be building veteran swordsmen (not warriors), should we keep the regular swordsmen home to protect the cities and send the veterans off to combat the Persians?

5. I’d like to put off starting any wonders (or FP) until we’ve completed settling the immediate area (or conquered ones).

6. As to your couple of reloads, I normally have to reload 2-3 times per session. Either a cat / child got to the keyboard while I was looking at a chart / map or I clicked next to the (D) button and ended the turn early. I try to exactly repeat the moves after the reload, so as not to cheat.

7. We’ll probably be acquiring Polytheism soon. That leaves only 2 techs until the barbarian blossoming, let’s not get caught by surprise.

8. It looks like JimmyDean & I will be chopping up some Persian Warriors / Spearmen. I actually hope that Pasagarde autorazes. That location isn’t a good fit for our development. Speaking of locations, is 3 the normal number of rings for RCP or would that continue as the empire grows?

9. After we get the southern horses claimed, let’s send 1 more settler due south, then concentrate expansion to the N & NE.

I'll check in again tomorrow morning and see how JD did.

Have a good night all.

:beer:

DaveShack

Oct 16, 2003, 08:32 PM

Ted, nice play and great log! :)

Here are a few possibly useless thoughts...

AFAIK there is no diplomatic difference between autorazing and doing it ourselves, so if Parsargdae is in a bad place maybe we should go ahead and raze anyway. We're not aiming for diplomatic, are we? :devil2:

Don't forget we have a renegotiated peace with Egypt, so no war there until the turns run out -- not that it's likely we'll finish off Persia soon enough for the turns with Egypt to matter...

Did I mention in the pregame that I have trouble knowing how big a force to use in offensive war? How many swords should we be trying for? Judging by how well y'all are playing this should be a great learning experience. :)

If we have any units to spare, one way to deal with the barbs is to push back the fog so they pop up out of range of our towns. Maybe use a few regular warriors that way, get them promoted by barb hunting, and then upgrade.

LordKestrel

Oct 17, 2003, 12:44 AM

Got it, will play shortly.

Looking at the save, Rome is a monster. 11 cities, 2 luxes, 2 iron, horses, and very fertile terrain. They'll very likely be our main competitor once we hit the Middle Ages. France also has nice land, but they have a mere 7 cities.

As for Persia, I'll strike at Pasargadae, and then probably move right on to Persepolis. That would cut them in half, and leave them with nothing but desert towns. If I still have troops left, I'll take Tarsus, which has their one source of iron, and spices. I'll try and capture Arbela from them in a peace treaty, although if we manage to somehow just walk all over them, we could just march in and take it.

LordKestrel

Oct 17, 2003, 03:11 AM

Inherited turn - 1000BC
MM Makkah to grow in two, to coincide with the settler in two.

9/1/0, 478 gold, +25gpt. Republic due in 33.

I spend 31 gold and establish an embassy with Persia so we can see what they have defending the capital:

http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-1000BC_persepolis.jpg

Daddy like :D
Interesting bug here. The map shows that they have Silks hooked up, but the city screen shows Ivory.

Hit Enter

IBT - nada

2. 975BC
Madinah builds worker. Starts on Catapult (due in 10).
Damascus builds warrior, starts Swordsman (due in 5).

Persians are building the Pyramids (starting at size 1 with 3 shields per turn, this will take them a looong time. Plus, they aren't building defense :D)

Upgrade 2 veteran warriors.
Send the wounded elite warrior to Damascus to heal.
Start several workers roading, have units fortified on them to protect them.
Start moving several swordsmen toward the Persian frontier.
Start moving a worker towards the Persian frontier to build a road for our troops.

Egypt has Polytheism, 0 gold.
Rome has Currency, 0 gold.
India down Philosophy and Code of Laws, 0 gold.
Persia down Philosophy and Code of Laws, 49 gold and a worker.
Zulu down Philosophy and Code of Laws, 25 gold.
France even, 76 gold.
Carthage down Philosophy and Code of Laws, 0 gold.
Ottomans have Currency, 0 gold.
Spain down Code of Laws, 0 gold.

We could trade for Currency, but with the lack of gold, it's not worth it.
Persia is willing to give us their WM, worker and 15 gold for Code of Laws, so I make the trade.
I trade Code of Laws to the Zulu for their WM and 25 gold.
No other trades possible.

IBT - nada

3. 950BC
Makkah builds settler, starts another settler.

Move newly built settler west towards Carthage.
Upgrade another swordsman.
Southern warrior/settler combo is almost to the horses.

Egypt up Polytheism, 2 gold
Rome up Currency, 0 gold
India down Philosophy, Code of Laws, 0 gold
Persia down Philosophy, 34 gold
Zulu down Philosphy, 0 gold
France even, 76 gold
Carthage down Code of Laws, 0 gold
Ottomans up Currency, 1 gold
Spain down Code of Laws, 0 gold

Again, nothing. As we're preparing for war, and still expanding, Currency is worthless, and Polytheism we only need once we're ready to enter the Middle Ages.

IBT - barb shows up near our southern pair, but they'll plant before he can catch them.

4. 925BC
Southern pair 2 turns from planting, western pair 3 turns.
Move some workers around.
We're up to 7 swordsmen, and we'll have some more in a few turns. I'll wait until we have 10 in Jeddah before declaring war.

Looks like a little AI trading happened.

Egypt up Polytheism, Currency, 5 gold.
Rome up Polytheism, Currency, 0 gold.
India down Philosophy, Code of Laws, 0 gold.
Persia down Philosophy, 34 gold.
Zulu down Philosophy, 0 gold.
France even, 76 gold.
Carthage down Code of Laws, 0 gold.
Ottomans up Currency, 2 gold.
Spain down Code of Laws, 0 gold.

The going rate for Currency is still 200+ gold, and Polytheism is about the same.

IBT - Persia requests an audience to trade maps, I decline.

5. 900BC
Upgrade another vet warrior
Worker actions.
MM Makkah to grow in 1, settler in 3.

I'd like to get Makkah into a 4 turn settler pump. We can do that by working the following tiles:
Needed -- +5fpt, +7.25spt average.
City tile +2fpt, +1spt
Irrigated flood plains x2, +4fpt, +1spt
Irrigated wool, +5fpt, +3spt
Work the hill goats, +5fpt, +5spt
Work irrigated plains, +5fpt, +6spt.
This is with a population of 5. Upon growth to size 6, the worker will default to the mined plains, which gives us an extra shield.
Move worker to irrigated plains for +5fpt, +7spt.
Upon growth to size 7, the worker will default to the mined plains again, giving us the extra shields to pop the settler that turn.

After turn 1, 5 food and 6 shields collected
After turn 2, 5 food and 8 shields collected
After turn 3, 5 food and 7 shields collected
After turn 4, 5 food and 9 shields collected

IF I've done my math correctly, this will give us the required 20 food and 30 shields to produce a settler every 4 turns. If there is any corruption, we'll lose a shield and this won't work.

I'd really like to get this implemented, but I think that it'll have to wait for the next player.

Egypt up Polytheism, Currency, 6 gold.
Rome up Polytheism, Currency, 1 gold.
India down Code of Laws, Philosophy, 0 gold.
Persia down Philosophy, 34 gold.
Zulu down Philosophy, 0 gold.
France even, 76 gold.
Carthage down Code of Laws, 0 gold.
Ottomans up Currency, 3 gold.
Spain down Code of Laws, 0 gold.

We have two civs that only need a single tech to reach the Middle Ages. Upon two civs entering, the barb camps pop. I'm sending warriors out to scout for them, but hopefully we don't have any near us. With luck, the Indians, French and Zulu will be overrun by them.
There IS a camp down south though, so it's entirely possible that we have a SoD of barbs come north.

IBT - Nothing, not even barb movement. It's quiet... too quiet ;)

6. 875BC
Workers start irrigating the second flood plain at Makkah.

Found Najran. I put it on the horses instead of next to them. My thinking is that it guarantees us access to the horses, it brings in the spices, and we work two hills instead of two desert. Plus, it's on the other side of the river from the Ottomans, so if that town is attacked, they have to attack over the river.
Najran starts warrior. Due in 10, growth in 10. We will want a Temple here before long, so that we can claim all of the nice land around it. Also, once it grows, we have 2 bonus grassland that it can work.

Trading:
Egypt +1 gold to 7
Rome +1 gold to 2
India same
Persia -5 gold to 29, now even
Zulu same
France same
Carthage +5 gold to 5, now even
Ottomans +1 gold to 4
Spain same

IBT - nothing

7. 850BC
The French are building the Oracle

Diriyah completes settler, starts spearman, due in 5.
Damascus completes swordman, starts swordman, due in 5.
Baghdad completes spearman, starts temple, due in 8

Settler/spearman from Diriyah heads north to poach the Spices near Persia. I will found it on the river hill just northwest of the spices for defensive purposes. I'll take a swordsman with him.

Kufah founded west of the mountain range on the proposed spot. Starts temple, due in 15.

Egypt +1 gold to 8
Rome +1 gold to 3
India +25 gold to 25
Persia same
Zulu same
France same
Carthage same
Ottomans +1 gold to 5
Spain same

IBT - Barb horseman shows up east of Jeddah. I notice there is a camp there, so I'll divert troops that way.
Barb warrior appears again near Najran.

8. 825BC

Troop movement.
Persian spice poacher 3 turns from settlement on the river hill.

Egypt +26 gold to 34
Rome +1 gold to 4
India same
Persia same
Zulu learn Construction --- WARNING! Middle Ages could come any time now. Still down Philosophy. They want everything we have for it, so hopefully it won't be traded yet.
France +2 gold to 78
Carthage same
Ottomans +1 gold to 6
Spain same

IBT - Barb horseman dies against a spearman (3/4).
barb warrior and horse spotted just south of Medinah.

9. 800BC
Makkah completes settler, starts temple (we need the happiness if it's going to be size 5-7. Due in 6.

Vet warrior kills barb warrior, 3/4. Roman warrior spotted south east of Medinah.

Settler moves east, will pickup escort in Baghdad and head to the northside of the lake east of Baghdad.

Egypt +2 gold to 36
Rome +1 gold to 5
India same
Persia same
Zulu same
France +2 gold to 80
Carthage +25 gold to 30
Ottomans +1 gold to 7
Spain same

IBT - Barb warrior dies without hurting 3/3 warrior in Najran.

10. 775BC
Rush temple in Baghdad (20 shields left, 1 pop killed).

Settler ready to be planted next turn near Pasargadae.

We have very little military actually ready for use. 7 swordsman and one elite warrior. We'll have a swordsman, spearman and catapult built in 2.

Egypt +136 gold to 172. Still up Polytheism and Currency.
Rome +0 gold at 5. Up Polytheism and Currency.
India +0 gold at 0. Up Polytheism, researched this turn. Still down Code of Laws and Philosophy.
Persia +0 gold at 29. Even techs.
Zulu +0 gold at 0. Up Construction, down Philosophy.
France -80 gold to 0. Up Polytheism.
Carthage +0 gold at 30. Even techs.
Ottomans +1 gold to 8. Up Currency.
Spain +0 gold at 0. Down Code of Laws.

India will trade WM + Polytheism for Code of Laws, Philosophy, WM and 11 gold. I recommend that the next player makes this trade, as he'll probably trade for them next turn.
After making that trade, you could see if we can get Currency from the Ottomans for Poly+gold. Also trade to Carthage and Persia for 30 gold and 29 gold respectively.

We're on the brink of having the Middle Ages start, and having barbs pop everywhere. It doesn't look like there is anything we can do about it, as there is a camp south somewhere popping out horses and warriors, so we'll eat it on that one.

No wars started during my turns, but we're getting close.

If possible, please try the 4 turn settlers in Makkah. It needs to start with an empty food/shield bin at size 5, and then with micromanagement when it grows to size 6 and when it drops to size 5, it should produce a settler every 4 turns.

Pictures:

Our land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-775BC_homeland.jpg)

Persia (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-775BC_persia.jpg)
Notice the barb camp next to their city.

Rome (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-775BC_rome.jpg)

World Ranking
Rome is starting to pull away.
http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-775BC_world_ranking.jpg

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-BC775.zip)

TedJackson

Oct 17, 2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by denyd

1. Why would you trade for both the TM & WM? Wouldn't the WM contain all the information on the TM? It's one of those things I've been meaning to check ever since I started playing but have never got round to :)

So, to be on the safe side, I always get both.

Originally posted by denyd
2. Is there a way to shrink the image sizes? (I'm using MS Paint and saving as .JPG) Select All (Edit menu) then Stretch & Skew (Image menu).

Originally posted by denyd
3. How much gold do we have in the treasury? Enough for all current warrior upgrades? If not, be sure to upgrade the veterans first. Enough to cover our needs :)

Originally posted by denyd
4. With the iron hooked up, we'll be building veteran swordsmen (not warriors), should we keep the regular swordsmen home to protect the cities and send the veterans off to combat the Persians? This is about the point where I normally start building Spears to allow the vet Swords to go and bash some heads. Training up the reg Swords on barbs also works quite well.

Originally posted by denyd
5. I'd like to put off starting any wonders (or FP) until we've completed settling the immediate area (or conquered ones). I quite agree. If we need them we'll capture them.

Originally posted by denyd
6. As to your couple of reloads, I normally have to reload 2-3 times per session. Either a cat / child got to the keyboard while I was looking at a chart / map or I clicked next to the (D) button and ended the turn early. I try to exactly repeat the moves after the reload, so as not to cheat. This is the first time this new install has had problems but that's life (& Civ) :)

Originally posted by denyd
7. We'll probably be acquiring Polytheism soon. That leaves only 2 techs until the barbarian blossoming, let's not get caught by surprise. IIRC the uprisings come when two Civs make it to the next era so we might have a breathing space.

Originally posted by denyd
8. It looks like JimmyDean & I will be chopping up some Persian Warriors / Spearmen. I actually hope that Pasagarde autorazes. That location isn't a good fit for our development. Speaking of locations, is 3 the normal number of rings for RCP or would that continue as the empire grows? In my experience (have a look at Tark1) RCP can extend as far out as land will allow.

Originally posted by denyd
9. After we get the southern horses claimed, let's send 1 more settler due south, then concentrate expansion to the N & NE. My thoughts exactly.

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 17, 2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by DaveShack
AFAIK there is no diplomatic difference between autorazing and doing it ourselves, so if Parsargdae is in a bad place maybe we should go ahead and raze anyway. We're not aiming for diplomatic, are we? :devil2:I think you're right but PAsagadae has had a chance to grow now so probably won't autoraze.

Originally posted by DaveShack
Don't forget we have a renegotiated peace with Egypt, so no war there until the turns run out -- not that it's likely we'll finish off Persia soon enough for the turns with Egypt to matter... I thought carefully before doing this but my assessment was that the treaty would expire long before we could turn our attention to Egypt.

Originally posted by DaveShack
Did I mention in the pregame that I have trouble knowing how big a force to use in offensive war? How many swords should we be trying for? Judging by how well y'all are playing this should be a great learning experience. :) It's always difficult to judge but I would think 10 Swords & 2 or 3 Spears should get us to Perespolis taking Pasagadae on the way.

Originally posted by DaveShack
If we have any units to spare, one way to deal with the barbs is to push back the fog so they pop up out of range of our towns. Maybe use a few regular warriors that way, get them promoted by barb hunting, and then upgrade. Agreed.

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 17, 2003, 05:27 AM

@jimmydean
Good play again :thumbsup:

I think Rome might be tweaked not to build Wonders so they appear bigger than normal.

They won't stand a chance against our Ansars anyway :)

Ted
p.s. sorry for posting 3 consecutive messages but wanted to deal with denyd & DaveShack's points separately

ControlFreak

Oct 17, 2003, 06:39 AM

denyd (UP NOW)
DaveShack (Ondeck)
TedJackson
jimmydean

You guys are making a great team. Good job spotting the setter factory potential jimmydean. Many people missed that potential in the actual GOTM23 (myself not included;) )

It's going to be fun watching Persia fall!:hammer:

LordKestrel

Oct 17, 2003, 01:59 PM

Thanks guys! I tend to be decent at micromanagement, and since the first time I managed to get a 4 turn factory going, I've loved the things. If it's possible on my starting location, I tend to get that going before anything else, and use that to stay even with the AI in the Ancient Era.

It's more difficult with a non industrious civ, as it takes twice as many worker turns to improve tiles. I don't know if we'll be affected by corruption however, so it may all come to naught.

ControlFreak

Oct 17, 2003, 02:00 PM

Corruption or not, this is a large map with a domination goal. You will need to be making settlers from now to the end of time.

LordKestrel

Oct 17, 2003, 02:11 PM

The loss of a single shield in the capital would ruin the 4 turn settler strategy. We could still do 5 turn settlers from there, and we could probably do 5 or 6 turn settlers from another city, but we lose that wonderful 4 turn pump.

denyd

Oct 17, 2003, 04:11 PM

OK - I'm finally here

Damn work meetings getting in the way of my Civ time.

Nice set of turns JD.

Question: I'm 60/40 on being able to play tonight and tomorrow is a no-go. Probably noon Sunday is the earliest I can start.

Do you want to skip me, have DaveShack and I switch places or maybe have wait until Sunday afternoon (PDT) for results of the next 10.

Let me know in the next couple of hours.

As to the current situation. All looks good except for that yellow city in the south (I wanted a city in that spot), the intrusion of Spain to the NW and the barb village in the desert to the east.

I was thinking, that we should kill off the desert barb village, move some troops to the mountains (3 SW + 1 SP) near Tarsus and wait for the Barb blossom at the age change. After the barbs have whacked the Tarsus defense, it'll be ripe for the taking. Timing that with attack on Pasagarde (and maybe Arbela) shouldn't be too tough.

Assuming, I'm playing next, my plans would be to move the swordsmen in place for the Pasagarde assault (10SW + 2SP). If a settler becomes available soon, I'll send him north to spot within our soon to be acquired lands. (South is too barb friendly currently). I'll make that mentioned trades if I can, setup the troops and try to acquire construction from the Zulu, that'll push us into the Middle Ages and probably trigger the barb bloom. After they whack Tarsus, I'll declare on Persia and try to take the eastern cities. If I get the war started it'll still be going when I pass the game along.

Let me know on the play descision. I'll check back later and if I don't get a response. I'll plan on playing myself (hopefully tonight)

:beer: to all

denyd

Oct 17, 2003, 04:14 PM

JD,

I case I get to play, what improvements are needed to complete the 4 turn settler factory?

Deny

(A picture would be nice) :)

denyd

Oct 17, 2003, 07:44 PM

5:45PDT GOT IT - I'll be able to play tonight (RL had flight delay).

denyd

Oct 18, 2003, 02:10 AM

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-BC570.zip)

Turn 0 – Take a look around and decide to send spearman to Nahran – Switch production in Medinah from catapult to spearman (due in 2) (I never really liked early artillery, too slow and not effective in small numbers)
Trade Philosophy + Code of Laws + WM + 11g to India for Polytheism – Trades for Currency (Ottoman for Poly+130g+WM) & Construction (Zulu for Poly+Philo+545g+8gpt) available but not worth it – no other deals make sense (Also turned on unit animations)

IBT – Baghdad completes temple – starts swordsman (due in 10)

Turn 1 – Decide to leave settler in Baghdad (barbs due soon)
Swordsmen in desert E towards village
Settler w/escorts NE to site
Southern workers with escort road to Riyadh
Veteran warrior heads to Dahran for upgrade
Trade checks
Egypt up currency, no iron
Rome up currency, no iron
India up currency, no iron
Persia down polytheism
Zulu up construction, down poly & philo
France even with extra horses
Carthage down poly
Ottoman up currency, no horses
Spain down CoL and Poly

Deals for currency & construction available, but not worth it yet

IBT – Persia founds Gordium NW of Arbela – Roman warrior moves away from Riydah
Medinah completes Spearman – starts barracks (due in 14)
Dinyah completes Spearman – starts another (due in 5)
Damascus completes Swordsman – starts another (due in 5)
Massive barbarian uprising near Baghdad!!

Turn 2: Damascus Swordsman moves towards Jeddah
Dinyah spearman to Jeddah – Settler founds Basra N of spices (on river) starts temple (due in 30)– Spearman & swordsman MP in Basra until barbs die down – Settler in Baghdad heads back W in case of barb attack – Baghdad Warrior upgraded to Swordsman – Medinah spearman sent to Baghdad – Vet Warrior next to Medinah – Arbela Swordsman move back to hills
Trade Check:
Egypt: up Literature (120g+WM) & Currency (240g+WM)
Rome: up currency (240g+WM)
India: up currency (220g+WM)
Persia: down poly (20g+WM)
Zulu: up lit/currency/construction**
France: up construction (240g+WM)
Carthage: down poly (40g+WM)
Ottoman: up lit/currenct/construction**
Spain: down CoL & Poly

** = entered Middle Ages

No reason to do any of these deals

IBT: Only movement is Roman warrior E

Turn 3: Warrior escort S fortifies on workers
Vet warrior reaches Medinah – Workers on hill E of Mekkah are done and head E to improve Mekkah – Swordsman keeps heading to Jeddah – Swordsman in Baghdad moves to escort workers on spice relieves Vet Warrior who moves to Baghdad for upgrade – Worker completes road segment to Pasagarde moves to road to Arbela – swordsman escort goes with him

Trade check:
Only changes are Rome & Spain now have literature (price down to 110g+WM)

IBT: A BW NE of Baghdad heading N – A BH SE of Nahran heading that way – Mekkah completes temple – starts settler (due in 5)

Turn 4: Workers move to Mekkah goats – Swordsman reaches Jeddah and MP (6sw+1sp+1w) – worker begins road to Arbela his escort fortifies – Arbela sword heads to Jeddah – Vet Warrior leaves Medinah heading for Dahran to upgrade – workers in S complete road segment move with escort next to Riyadh – mountain swords N spot lots of 7 BH next to Tarsus – spearman reaches Nahran – spearman reaches Baghdad

Trade Check – Persia now down Poly up Construction
Everything else is same

IBT – the 7 BH die adding 2 hits but promoting spear in Tarsus to elite Persian warrior is killed on mountain – 8 other BH arrive near Tarsus – 5 BH S of Nahran – Rome demands 95g + WM – I decline and he declares war - Dharan completes barracks starts swordsman – (due in 15) – Zulu complete Oracle in Zimbabwe – French start Great Lighthouse (silly woman!!) – Ottoman start Great Library

Turn 5 – Settler stays in Baghdad – Workers start mine on Mekkah goats hill – Workers start final segment to Riydah – Mountain Swordsmen fortify – Nahran spearman fortifies – Vet Warrior upgrades
Build Embassy in Sogut (Great Lib in 38 turns 3 spearmen) – Pay 8gpt + WM to Ottoman for alliance vs Rome
IBT – 5 BH die in Tarsus – BH attacks Ridyah and dies (spearman 2/3) – 10 BH in range of Nahran – Nahran completes warrior – starts temple (30 turns) – Palace Expansion # 2 – Egypt starts Great Library – India starts Pyramids – French start Great Wall

Turn 6 – Warrior MP in Nahran – Upgrade warrior in Dinyah – Swordsman in Dahran MP until barbs gone – worker completes mine near xxx heads to Medinah to mine olives – worker near Dahran complete mine sent to join worker near Medinah
Trade Check – no changes and really no deals of interest

IBT: 3BH die attacking Tarsus (spearman 3/5) – 2 BH die attacking Nahran (1/3) – other BH romp around in a threatening manner – BW dies attacking Vet Sword (4/4) on mountain – Dinyah completes spearman starts swordsman (6 turns) – Damascus complete swordsman starts another (5 turns)

Turn 7 – Upgrade warrior in Dinyah – spearman set to MP – worker completes road segment to Arbela and returns to Jeddah with vet sword escort – Road to Ridyah complete workers w/escort move to goats – Damascus sword sent to Jeddah – worker to Medinah olives –
Trade check – swap TM with Ottoman – no changes in cities – no other changes

IBT – Nahran spearman defeats BH and is promoted to veteran (4/4) – 5 BH die attacking Tarsus – 3 BH die attacking Roman Warrior in mountain N of Nahran – Mekkah completes settler starts barracks – (8)

Turn 8 – Settler sent N – Swordsman in Dinyah to Jeddah – Workers begin road on Medinah olives – Workers begin road on Ridyah goats
Trade Check:
Egypt now in MA (520g for both techs)
France now in MA (490 for both techs)
Others no changes

IBT: Elite Roman Warrior dies N of Nahran to BH – 3 BH die attacking Tarsus – BH dies attacking mountain Swordsman (3/4) – Egyptians building Pyramids – Zulu building Great Library

Turn 9 – Wake workers roading near Ridyah and return to Ridyah with escort – BH nearby – 2 more swords in Jeddah (10sw-1sp-1w)

Trade check:
No changes – no trades this set

IBT – 2 more BH die at Tarsus – 8 BH dancing around Nahran – Ottoman horse kills a BH nearby – Ridyah BH moves off – Ridyah completes barracks starts spearman (due in 10)

Turn 10: Both warriors in Ridyah upgrad to swordsmen – workers move back to goat hill – settler reaches Jeddah – workers complete Baghdad olive mine move to road to next city site w/escort – settler waits in Baghdad

Contact situation:
Egypt: Polite - 10 cities – 2g – up lit/cur/const
Rome: At war – seen 1 warrior so far
India: Polite – 8 cities – 3g – up currency
Persia: Polite – 7 cities - 36g – up cons down poly
Zulu: Polite – 9 cities – 6g – up lit/cur/const
France: Polite – 9 cities – 25g – up lit/cur/const
Ottoman: Polite – 9 cities – 131g – up lit/cur/const
Spain: Polite – 4 cities – 0g up lit down poly – would take a poly for lit deal

Arabs: 11 cities – 570g – we are strong in military versus all others - #1 in first 4 demos #2 in land
Histograph Top Three:
Rome: 350
Arabs: 313
Egypt: 289

General Comments: I think my opening trade of Philosophy might have hurried the barb explosion.

I decided to get a couple more barracks. We'll probably need to get this war started soon. Also we need to get that road to the horses complete soon.

I'll check again tomorrow and add a few more comments (after a little sleep)

:beer:

LordKestrel

Oct 18, 2003, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by denyd
JD,

I case I get to play, what improvements are needed to complete the 4 turn settler factory?

Deny

(A picture would be nice) :)

This is from my other post:

Needed -- +5fpt, +7.25spt average.
City tile +2fpt, +1spt
Irrigated flood plains x2, +4fpt, +1spt
Irrigated wool, +5fpt, +3spt
Work the hill goats, +5fpt, +5spt
Work irrigated plains, +5fpt, +6spt.
This is with a population of 5. Upon growth to size 6, the worker will default to the mined plains, which gives us an extra shield.
Move worker to irrigated plains for +5fpt, +7spt.
Upon growth to size 7, the worker will default to the mined plains again, giving us the extra shields to pop the settler that turn.

After turn 1, 5 food and 6 shields collected
After turn 2, 5 food and 8 shields collected
After turn 3, 5 food and 7 shields collected
After turn 4, 5 food and 9 shields collected

DaveShack

Oct 18, 2003, 02:12 PM

Got it, probably won't play until 10pm, unless I get an opportunity during my 2 1/2 year old's nap... ;)

DaveShack

Oct 19, 2003, 03:32 AM

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_midturn_BC370.sav)

570 BC (turn 0) post turn 484g+21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 14

Don't notice anything that needs changing prior to end of turn.
The potential trade of poly for lit is borderline almost worth it.
Maybe they'll have some gold next turn...

IBT: saw some barb horses get killed, nothing directed at us.

Bagdhad completes swordsman, starts another.
French are building great library

550 BC (turn 1) 505g+21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 13

Settler and escorts from Bagdhad move N, NE heading for NW shore of lake.
Makkah workers move toward Dhahran
Noticed some special named warriors have been upgraded, but the "name" was
not updates e.g. warrior7 is really a swordsman.

IBT: Basra spear dispatches a barb horse without taking a scratch.
Damascus completes swordsman, starts another.
Kufah completes temple, starts barracks
Egypt building Great Wall
Egypt completes Colossus in Thebes
Barb horse threatens workers at Riyadh

530 BC (turn 2) 527g+21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 12.
Rename Warrior7 to Swordsman7, move to cover workers
Mine olives at Madinah.
Settler+escort continue NE
Rename Warrior5 to Swordsman5
Rename Warrior1 to Swordsman1, send to cover workers which will irrigate
another floodplain.

IBT: Persia sends an archer out from Tarsus to kill barb horse, 2/3
Barb horse attacks Parsargdae, which is now size 1
Madinah completes barracks, starts spear
Diriyah completes swordsman, starts another
Carthage building pyramids

510 BC (turn 3) 548g+21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 11
Settler / sword continue NE
Start irrigating
Swordsmen from Damascus, Diriyah moving toward Jeddah

IBT: Barbs redline an Ottoman horseman
Archer from Tarsus kills another barb and ends up further from home
Makkah produces barracks, starts swordsman.
Jeddah produces barracks, starts spearman
France completes Pyramids in Paris

490 BC (turn 4) 572g + 21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 10
One sword toward Basra to bolster defense and preposition for move
against Tarsus. Move invasion force from Jeddah toward Persian border.
10 swords, 1 elite warrior positioned outside borders of Parsargdae.

IBT: More barb activity
Egypt sends a chariot + settler east
Romans building Great Library
Persians building Great Library
Carthage building Great Library (pattern developing ;)

470 BC (turn 5) 594g + 21gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 9

Alexmanistan founded on NW corner of lake, producing barracks.

Trade check before war:
Ottomans have Lit, Const. Currency, 98g
Spain has Lit, Const, and lacks Poly
France has Lit, Const, Currency, 32g
India has Currency, 3g
Carthage has Lit, Currency, 18g, and lack poly
Persia has Lit, Currency, Construction, 32g, and lack poly
Egypt has all 3, and 55g
Zulu has all 3, and 34g

Give Spain Poly+WM+128g for Construction
Give Persia Poly for Lit + 30g.
Give Carthage Construction for Currency + 18g.

We how have 514g + 23gpt, Republic in 9

Declare war with Persia, move units in

IBT: Sword defeats barb, 2/3
Spain building Great Library

450 BC (turn 6) 537g + 23gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 8

Tarsus: Vet sword vs Elite Spear wins; vet sword vs regular spear loses :(
Parsargdae: Vet sword vs Regular spear wins; Parsargdae autorazed
it was back to pop 1 and no culture. Rest of stack moves up in preperation
for going through to Persepolis

IBT: Indians request an audience: offer WM for WM+lit, they're nuts :)
Sell them WM for 2g to keep on good terms
Barbs riding their horses around
Damascus completes sword, starts another

430 BC (turn 7) 563g + 26gpt, 9.1.0, Republic in 7

Stack continues toward Persepolis
Wounded sword retreats into our territory to heal

IBT: Some barb action. There is a wounded Persian archer near Tarsus
Makkah completes sword, starts another
Madinah completes spearman, starts swordsman
Bagdhad completes swordsman, starts another
Roman city of Rome completes Great Library
Persians building Great Wall
Zulu building Great Wall
Ottomans building Great Wall
Ottoman city of Sogut completes Great Wall

410 BC (turn 8) 589g + 28gtp, 9.1.0, Republic in 6

Troops at the gates of Persepolis :)
Moving workers, spear in direction to connect horse town
Bagdhad sword heads in the direction of a barb camp

IBT: Pictish kills the Persian archer :)
Madinah riots -- didn't notice it grew to size 7 :( Hire a clown
Diriyah completes sword, starts another
Dhahran completes sword, starts another
Egypt building Great Lighthouse

390 BC (turn 9) 617g + 26gpt, Republic in 5

Sword approaches Tarsus
Persepolis: 3/4 sword def. 3/3 spear
5/5 warrior loses to 3/3 spear in straight sets :(
4/4 sword defeats 3/3 spear, 1/4, Persepolis captured! :D
Set production to temple, garrison with 3 units
New Persian capital is Gordium, way over by Carthage, so
Persepolis is equal distance from the 2 capitals.
Garrison with 4 units, send rest to Bactra to try to get another
possible source of Horses.

Arbela: 4/4 sword loses to an untouchable 3/3 archer RNG playing tricks :(

Note: carthage has a "stack" of 3 units, 3/3 merc, 4/4 sword, 3/3 archer

IBT: 4/4 sword defeats archer, 3/4
Barbs attack S city
Carthage has the stack of 3 plus 2 more behind it now
Persepolis resistence ends.Entertainer hired.
Riyadh completes spear, starts another.

370 BC (turn 10) 644g+27gpt, Republic in 4
Irrigate a plains in Riyadh
Start working on road to connect horses in the S.

Tarsus: 3/4 sword loses to 3/3 spear, 3/2
Bactra: 4/4 sword loses to 3/3 spear, redlined
4/4 sword defeats 1/3 spear, Bactra destroyed.

Stopped turn short with several unit moves to go, to discuss whether
to get Antioch in a peace deal or continue with war, next player can
decide whether to withdraw the swords in the N for probable future
war with Carthage or Ottomans, or to continue against Persia.

Status

644g+26gpt, Republic in 4, 13 towns

Captured Persepolis, autorazed Parsargdae, Bactra, persia is effectively dead,
they just don't know it yet.

1 settler, 6 workers, 6 warriors, 8 spearman, 23 swordsman, 4 slaves
Our army is strong compared to everyone else

At war with Rome, Persia

Ottomans Polite, have 158g, 5 turns remaining on MA vs. Rome, we give 8gpt
Spain Cautious, have 33g
France Polite, have 51g
India Polite, have 4g, need Literature, Construction
Carthage Cautious, have 30g
Persia Furious, at war
Rome Furious, at war, have Monarchy
Egypt Polite, have 101g
Zulu Polite, have 34g

We have completed all ancient age tech, are working on Republic

Science: Feudalism, Monotheism, Chivalry, recommend going max research
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_BC370_empire.jpg

TedJackson

Oct 19, 2003, 03:47 AM

Great work DaveShack :thumbsup:

Have we got enough Swords in the North to take Susa (Silks)? If so I would probably carry on with that aim in mind.

Do Persia have another source of Iron? If so I would carry on to take that source from them. If not then I would probably take the Antioch deal.

In summary, if there are no achievable military objectives then take the deal.

Ted
p.s. the link is wrong, try > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-midturn-BC370.SAV)
p.p.s. Finish your turn DaveShack. I'll pick up the new save when you post it :)

TedJackson

Oct 19, 2003, 04:20 AM

Here's a screenshot of the Persian remains
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-370BC-Persia-s.jpg

1600*1200 version here (204K) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-370BC-Persia.jpg)

Ted

DaveShack

Oct 19, 2003, 11:58 AM

Wait, the brain works much better after some sleep... ;) Thanks for the questions Ted, now that I'm awake it looks like I'm trying to stop too short.

Persia still has the iron source, just not in their borders yet. That is why they had not hooked it up. We need to take Tarsus or we've missed the whole point of the war.

The northern force is large enough move on to take Susa, and another force to take Tarsus would need to be hastily assembled. We have swords on the way to Tarsus, and we keep coming up 1 hp short of taking it... Those silks do look inviting, it would be cool if we could catch them at pop 2 and keep the town.

Unfortunately it looks like everything but their capital will autoraze, probably because they're whipping back to pop 1 as soon as it grows, so we need more settlers. I'll be leaving you some land to grab...

Ted, thanks for the vote of confidence. Since you don't seem to mind possible misplaced forces I'll go ahead and finish out the unit moves according to the new plan and post an updated save. In a SP game I would have no questions about what to do, but in a SG (my first one) I'm trying to think of what the next player will want in a transition position.. :)

p.s. re: wrong save name -- oh, it's case sensitive? thanks for posting the fixed link!

DaveShack

Oct 19, 2003, 01:15 PM

Finishing out 370BC:

Settler + escort heads towards the NW source of horses.
3 sword force starts towards Susa
Sword guarding workers near Dhahran moves toward Madinah in case Carthage plans to attack.
Sword previously in Basra to heal starts toward Tarsus

And here is the new >save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-BC370.SAV)<

DaveShack

Oct 19, 2003, 01:18 PM

denyd
DaveShack
TedJackson (UP NOW)
jimmydean (Ondeck)

TedJackson

Oct 19, 2003, 01:34 PM

Got it

Play tomorrow.

ControlFreak

Oct 20, 2003, 06:24 AM

**END OF SPOILER 1**
Until you meet the requirements for Spoiler 2 (Full WM, all known civs, Middle Aged required techs including Magnetism and Theory of Gravity) you may not read past this post unless you are part of the SG23P[ptw] team or not playing the GOTM23 or it's SG.

Originally posted by DaveShack
denyd
DaveShack
TedJackson (UP NOW)
jimmydean (Ondeck)
Thanks for the help during the weekend DaveShack. I'm starting to feel unneeded.;)

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 07:31 AM

SG23P-370BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Pre-turn
Sell Peace Treaty to Rome for WM + 3gp
I can't see any benefit in a war with Rome at this point and there was always the possibility that Rome might have signed up one of our closer neighbours as an ally.
Makkah switches to Settler (I want to try jimmydeans 4 turn settler factory)

Press button
Sword (Arbela) is attacked by Archer but just defeats him (1/4)
Makkah Settler - Settler (Makkah is pop 5 with an empty food bin so watch out jimmydean)

1 - 350BC
MM Makkah
City tile 2fpt, 1spt
Irrigated Floodplain 3fpt
Irrigated Floodplain 3fpt
Irrigated Plain 2fpt, 1spt
Irrigated Wool on Plain 3fpt, 2spt
Mined Goats on Hill 2fpt, 3spt
for a total of +5fpt & 7spt
Sword (E Makkah) W
Sword (ENE Madinah) W
Settler (Makkah) N
Workers (SSE Alexmanistan) road
Sword (Alexmanistan) NE
Sword (NW Jeddah) 2W (SE Arbela)
Settler (North of Jeddah) NE (with Sword escort)
Sword North of Jeddah heads for Tarsus
2 Swords (W Persepolis) NW, W, NW
2 loose Swords in the North head for Susa
Vet Sword (NE Basra) vs barb horse (mountain to the East) - victory
Sword (3/4, NE Basra) NE
Sword (1/4, SE Arbela) E
Spear fort Workers
Sword fort Workers
The Carhagian force West of Riyadh moved South toward Byblos (Egypt) and were followed by another Merc/Sword pair
Hawk WM
Rome is down Monarchy and hasn't got Iron (3gp)
Carthage is level on tech (30gp)
India is down Lit & Construction (8gp)
France is level (54gp)
Zulu is level (28gp)
Spain is level but has no Iron (22gp)
Egypt is level (102gp)
Ottoman are level but have no Iron (89gp)
Our Military is strong compared to everybody else

IBT
Damascus Sword - Worker (zero growth)
Egypt found Asyut between Riyadh & Najran (there must be a resource hidden there) foiling our plans for a road to the Horses
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-330BC-Egypt2.jpg

2 - 330BC
The agressive settling of Asyut has chosen our next military target for us. I'll wait until Susa and Tarsus are ours then clobber Egypt.
Settler (N Makkah) moves to Diriyah
Our assault force rallies South of Tarsus
Snagha founded on the ruins of some Persian city whose name is long forgotten and starts construction of a Barracks.
Sword fort Snagha
Sword (1/4) fort Jeddah to heal
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Arbela) - victory (1/4)
Loose Northern Swords head for Susa
Vet Sword vs barb Warrior (camp, ENE Alexmanistan) - victory & 25gp
Sword fort Madinah
Sword fort Makkah
Sword fort Damascus
Jeddah switches to Worker
Sword (Persepolis) joins loose Sword heading for Susa
Hawk WM

3 - 310BC
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Susa) - victory
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Susa) - dies without landing a blow
Vet Sword vs vet Spear (Tarsus) - dies inflicting 2hp on Spear
Vet Sword vs vet Spear (2/4, Tarsus) - victory
Tarsus destroyed
Settler (Diriyah) moves to Jeddah
Road Gang (SE Riyadh) starts road to Najran
Sword (ENE Alexmanistan) heads back home
Makkah pop 5 - MM for +5fpt & 8spt - growth & settler in 2 turns
Hawk WM

IBT
Discover Republic - Feudalism
Delay revolution until end of turn
Baghdad Sword - Jeddah Worker - Sword

4 - 290BC
Worker (Jeddah) moves to SW Snagha
Settler (Jeddah) moves to SW Snagha
Sword (1/4, ex-Tarsus) W
Sword (1/4, WNW Jeddah) moves to Jeddah and forts
Worker Gang (S Dhahran) road - 2N
Road Gang (SE Riyadh) road - SE
Sword (Baghdad) moves to E Makkah
Workers (SSW Alexmanistan) road - NE
Madinah fires Clown and hires Scientist (preparation for Anarchy)
As I'm going to delay Anarchy for 1 turn
Research 100% (Feudalism in 16 @ -12gpt)
Hawk WM

IBT
Makkah Settler - Settler
Madinah Sword - Sword
Diriyah Sword - Sword

5 - 270BC
Sword (Diriyah) moves to Jeddah
Sword (3/4) fort Basra
Worker (SW Snagha) road
Settler (SW Snagha) moves to Snagha
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Susa) - victory
Susa is ours - Temple
2 Slaves (Susa) move to Goats North of NW Horse site
Sword (Madinah) SE
Worker & Slave (N Dhahran) road - 2nd Slave irrigates
Sword (E Makkah) SW, 2S (heading down toward Asyut)
Settler (Makkah) N
Slaves (S Alexmanistan) road
Sword fort Alexmanistan
Road Gang road
Sword (NW Najran) fort on mountain
Hawk WM
Buy Slave from Rome for 109gp
Buy Slave from Egypt for 106gp
Ask Carthage to remove their troops from our soil
Slave (Makkah) N (road to Snagha & beyond)
Slave (Makkah) S (road to Najran)
Revolution!

IBT
Spain declares war on Ottomans ???
Persepolis riots :smoke:
Republic!

6 - 250BC
3 Swords (Jeddah) NW, 2W (let's finish off Arbela)
Settler (Snagha) 2N, 1W (heading for hill NE of Horses)
Slave (3SE Susa) road
Slave (3SE Susa) irrigate
Sword (2/4, 3SE Susa) fort
Sword (E Susa) W
Road Gang carries on
Research Feudalism 80% (10 turns @ -53gpt)
Lux 10% (Silks online next turn will cure this)
Jeddah switches to Worker
Diriyah switches to Worker
We need nore roaded tiles to support our Republic.
Hawk WM

IBT
Resistance in Susa ends
Damascus Sword - Worker

7 - 230BC
Worker (N Dhahran) road - irrigate
Slave (N Dhahran) road - moves to E Makkah
Settler (E Diriyah) E
Slave (E Diriyah) E
Slave (NE Madinah) W, N, mine
Sword (NE Madinah) NE, N (possible garrison for Settler heading E from Diriyah)
Sword (2NE Riyadh) SW, S, SE
Road Gang thwarted by Carthagian & Zulu forces so NE
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Arbela) - dies without landing a blow
Vet Sword vs reg Spear (Arbela) - victory
Arbela destroyed
Settler moves to hill NE of Horses
Sword (Damascus) 3NE
Sign Peace Treaty with Persia - they give WM, Antioch + 2gp (broke)
Hawk WM

IBT
Diriyah Worker - Sword
Dhahran Sword - Temple
Kufah Barracks - Sword

8 - 210BC
Sirplebidah founded - Temple
Silks and Horses are now hooked up :)
Kufah swtches to Worker (zero growth)
Baghdad, Diriyah, Madinah & Riyadh switch to Horse
Sword (S Makkah) 2N
Slave (SE Makkah) 2N
Sword fort Dhahran
2 Slaves (S Alexmanistan) road - mine
Worker (SW Snagha) road - irrigate
Settler (2E Diriyah) E
Slave (2E Diriyah) road
Worker (Diriyah) 2E
Sword (W Diriyah) 3E
Persepolis hurries Temple for 92gp
Hawk WM
Buy Slave from Rome for 109gp
Buy Slave from India for Construction
We are only 7 points behind Rome on the Histograph
We need one more luxury to reduce lux rate :)
Slave (Makkah) SW
Slave (Makkah) NE

IBT
Rome & Ottomans sign Peace Treaty :(
Persepolis Temple - Barracks
Makkah Settler - Settler
Damascus Worker - Horse
Memphis (Egypt) completes the Great Lighthouse

9 - 190BC
Worker & Slave (N Dhahran) move to E Dhahran
Settler (Makkah) N
Worker (Damascus) E, S
Worker (2E Diriyah) road
Khurasan founded 3E of Diriyah - Barracks
Slave (NNE Makkah) irrigate
Sword (N Makkah) moves to E Diriyah
Hawk WM

IBT
Baghdad Horse - Horse
Rome starts Hanging Gardens

10 - 170BC
Horse (Baghdad) moves to 2NE Madinah
Sword fort Khurasan
Slave (NNE Makkah) irrigate
Settler (N Makkah) moves to E Diriyah
Worker (E Dhahran) mine
Slave (E Dhahran) road
Worker (2SE Damascus) road
Worker (SSW Basra) road - N
Slave (NNW Madinah) mine

Our Empire
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-170BC2.jpg

Governments and Technology
Egypt (Republic) - level (63gp)
Carthage (Despotism) - down Republic (3gp)
Rome (Monarchy) - up Monarchy (138gp)
India (Despotism) - down Republic (1gp)
Persia (Despotism) - down Republic (1gp)
Zulu (Despotism) - down Republic (22gp)
France (Despotism) - down Republic (91gp)
Ottoman (Despotism) - down Republic (0gp)
Spain (Despotism) - down Republic (58gp)

Notes
We are 1 point behind Rome in score.
Our first Horse is up and running with a few more on the way :)
We are researching Feudalism @ 80% -57gpt. My reasoning being that we want to get to Chivalry ASAP and Sun Tzu might be nice for us :)
After that we can turn off research as there's nothing else we're interested in. Hopefully one of the AI will help by researching Monotheism.
We need more Workers to build roads to generate Gold. Just fit them in as you can.
We could go to war with Egypt or Carthage. I've left the decision to the next player.
Trading left for next player.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-BC1702.zip)

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 07:38 AM

It looks as if /uploads5 is having a problem and the save file is too big to send as an attachment (zipped) so if jimmydean can PM me with his email I'll send it that way.

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 20, 2003, 07:44 AM

denyd (Ondeck)
DaveShack
TedJackson
jimmydean (UP NOW)

Good war TedJackson. Question: Was the MA cancelled with Ottoman's before Peace with Rome? Hate to have killed our rep with the 8gpt we owed them.

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Question: Was the MA cancelled with Ottoman's before Peace with Rome? Hate to have killed our rep with the 8gpt we owed them. Bugger!

I completely missed that :smoke:

Sorry guys.

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 20, 2003, 09:41 AM

Oh well, no more gpt trades for us ;)

It looks like the settlers were popping every 4 turns [party]

I came into work early today, so I should be able to play in about 8 hours.

Any objectives for my 10? If we have the troops, I'll knock on Egypt's door, and keep working on building up an economy. Do we have any cities that would make a good prebuild for Sun Tzu's?

DaveShack

Oct 20, 2003, 10:30 AM

edit3:

For the 4-turn settler pump, is MM on every turn required?

If we're going to aim for Sun Tzu, maybe a prebuild would be a good idea... :)

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 10:44 AM

With being in Republic we're well over the requirements :)

In fact, we'll have to build military in between each Settler to avoid running the pop down too far.

I'll re-upload the files in an hour or so as uploads seem to be working again.

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 01:08 PM

OK Guys,

The link in my report is now working. Go grab it jimmydean :)

Ted

ControlFreak

Oct 20, 2003, 01:12 PM

You may have noticed I edited in a **End of Spoiler 1** to your thread. The other team has been playing slower than you guys and has not reached the Spoiler Requirements of Full Map and Middle ages. Since you have and they have not, you are permitted to follow their progress in their thread until such a time as they leave the Ancient Age. I will post a similar warning post in their thread and let you know the RL date when they leave the AA. Until then you may read their thread and throw popcorn IN THEIR THREAD. But please do not give advice about their future moves. Do not share any information you have obtained after you reached the Middle age. You may comment on moves that either you or they have done in the Ancient Age.

denyd

Oct 20, 2003, 04:48 PM

All couple of off the top of my pointy head thoughts:

First TJ & DS did a nice job :hammer: on the once proud Persian Empire.

Should we finish them off? I don’t fear any culture flips, but is there any reason after the peace treaty ends (or before for that matter) to leave them in the game?

As for the next target, I noticed the discussion about Egypt. Why not take out Spain? They are nearby to our swordsmen and small. Only 5 cities, no horses and no iron hooked up. We would also gain gems if we managed to keep Barcelona from razing. We could gather the troops in Sirpleibidah and send them together to take out Toledo, Madrid, Barcelona, Seville and Santiago. That should be about 20 turns, just in time to use the remainder of the force to acquire Gordium. If we have enough swords, we should be able to keep producing horsemen for an Ansar Warrior upgrade (with an occasional spearman for MP duty in our new cities) in our main core.

I checked on the map and while the Ottoman & Rome don’t have iron hooked up, it is within their borders.

I’m normally a set production and let it go kind of player. When would I want to slip in a military unit in Mekkah (at what size)?

As for research, after Chivalry, I’d like to get Invention. Being able to use a potential GL for Leo’s would make the upgrades a lot cheaper.

As for future targets, my preference would be:
1. Spain – small, no iron, should be easy pickings, has gems.
2. India – medium size growing, let’s try to get them pre-elephant, has ivory.
3. France – medium size and boxed in, try to get them pre-musketeer, has furs.
4. Carthage – medium size but those NM’s are a pain until AW arrive, no iron at all
5. Egypt – medium, growing and next door, also has no iron at all
6. Zulu – not that tough, but not very close, have to go through someone to get to
7. Ottoman – a nice road block to keep Rome in check, but must go before Siphai
8. Rome – not very tough now and contained by Ottoman, but very far away

I think my plan would be to use the Swordsmen on Spain and to finish off Persia. Once we have the Ansar Warriors ready, start with India (hopefully before elephants appear) and try to make quick work of them. Have a couple of settlers standing by fill in for any razed cities. This might be a good place to plop an FP if we get a GL (so many uses for one, we better get a couple just in case :D ) . Use the remaining swords as MP’s for India. Once India is gone, hurry the AW to attack France and finish off the northern portion of our continent. Heading counter clockwise, the Zulu, Carthage and Egypt would be in line to join our empire. Then we can turn our attention to the Ottoman to complete the domination. I don’t think we’ll need the Roman lands for this to succeed.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 05:19 PM

IIRC Persia only has one city left (Gordium?) with no special resources so is neither here nor there in the grand scheme :)

Egypt is blocking our way to the South and threatens our second source of Horses so seem a natural target. I didn't look too hard elsewhere so you may well be right about Spain.

India is a bit of a stretch at the moment and is no real threat, lagging behind in tech quite badly.

Once the Ansars (4.2.3) are up & running you'll be amazed at their speed and utility. That extra movement point really makes them a force to be reckoned with. If you think Cavalry you won't be far off the mark. Plus the best they'll be fighting is Pikemen, Mercs and Muskets :)

Ansars are ideal for the advance, fight or pillage then retreat strategy with a couple of Spears or Pikes as their base camp.

By all means try Swords on Spain as I have a personal domination victory target of 1000AD for this game.

Let's go get 'em :)

Ted

Sir Bugsy

Oct 20, 2003, 06:03 PM

[delurk]

@Control Freak, this is an excellent idea. What a fabulous way to compare your own game with the play of some very fine players. I hope to learn a lot and compare this game to mine.

@ The Team - What a fine decision you made going after Persia. Will you set up a second core there?

[/lurk]

denyd

Oct 20, 2003, 06:16 PM

SB:

I'm hoping we decide on better land for the 2nd core. Persia is on similar turf to our homeland and not very condusive to larger populations (ie production).

I think the Persia decision was based mainly on location and the desire not to have to deal with Immortals (see Medal Play Game 6-2 as to why).

Enjoy the lurking (I've enjoyed lurking on your SG games so it seems fair).

TJ: I've also been following you DoubleWhammy SG, trying for 2 20K + 100K + UN + Dom on the same turn !!! Way too much math for me
:crazyeye:

Sir Bugsy

Oct 20, 2003, 06:19 PM

I'm having a blast with Immortals in 6-2 right now. Excellent point. Another checkmark to put in the learning column.

[lurk]

TedJackson

Oct 20, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by denyd
TJ: I've also been following you DoubleWhammy SG, trying for 2 20K + 100K + UN + Dom on the same turn !!! Way too much math for me :crazyeye: I think MB1 is a fine example of what an SG can be.

For me, it started as a group of individuals who quickly became a team, sharing and taking on board each others viewpoints and ideas to develop strategies and plans to realise a goal. If only life could always be that good.

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 20, 2003, 07:23 PM

Running later than I thought, but I can grab it in a few hours.

I'll take a look at the save, but it's very likely that Spain is a more suitable target. One thing about Egypt: Once we start fighting them, we'll likely trigger their GA, so they'll become stronger before they become weaker.

I wholeheartedly agree with taking on the Ottomans BEFORE Siphai arrive. I've just finished up my 4th Monarch game, and 3 of them were as the Ottos. Once I had Siphai in my hands, the rest of the world trembled.

The 4th game was with China, which also has a movement 3 Knight replacement. That extra movement was absurdly powerful, allowing me to take out 4 full civs, and most of a 5th by the time my GA ended. Of course, I had prebuilt 40 horsemen to upgrade first :cool:

We should have a large force of horsemen ready to upgrade once we learn Chivalry. I don't know how long we want to put off learning Chivalry, but upgrading is cheaper than building.

LordKestrel

Oct 21, 2003, 01:14 AM

Playing now. It's been interesting so far.

DaveShack

Oct 21, 2003, 01:31 AM

Spain certainly looks weak enough for an opponent, and they are still in Despotism with no likeliehood of a GA any time soon. They do have swordsmen, one is escorting a settler through our territory right now. If we go after them, 3 of 5 towns will autoraze, so send in settlers, or someone else will grab the land, not that it's much of a prize.

If it weren't for Spain being kinda in the way, I'd almost say go for France first. They also have a settler walking through our zone, and it's only defended by a spear, and a couple of slave workers to start things off is always fun :devil2:. The French and Indians tie for best land held by our future victims, either one would be a good 2nd core location. Also only 3 towns look like they'all autoraze.

Alas, we have too few swords to tackle an opponent that large, but once the Ansars come along...

LordKestrel

Oct 21, 2003, 03:03 AM

Turnlog

Inherited turn

MM Makkah to grow in 1, settler in 3. This will allow it to reach size 7 when it pops the settler, taking us back down to 5.
MM Najran to not riot next turn.
MM Madinah to remove entertainer, giving it +1gpt to treasury and +4 beakers
MM Baghdad to +9spt, giving horseman every 4 turns instead of 5.

1/8/1 318 gold, -54gpt. Feudalism due in 6.

Trading situation:

Egypt and Rome both have Republic already, so we no longer have a monopoly.

Spain 58 gold, 0gpt
Ottomans 0 gold, 0gpt
Carthage 3 gold, 0gpt
France 91 gold, 0gpt
Zulu 22 gold, 0gpt
Persia 1 gold, 0gpt
India 1 gold, 0gpt
Rome up Monarchy, 138 gold, 0gpt
Egypt even, 63 gold, 0gpt

We could potentialy pull in an updated world map plus 175 gold for Republic. I don't think it is worth putting the entire world in a better government though.

Interesting note: Both the Ottomans and Persia are Scientific, yet neither received a free tech upon entering the Middle Ages. That feature must have been removed from this GOTM.

The entire world is Annoyed/Furious with us :D Nothing like an early crimp in our style.

Hit enter

IBT - 2 Ottoman warrior and 2 Ottoman archers move right next to our territory. I think we just found our next target. They'll likely move in next turn.
Carthage NM/settler pair seen moving around in our far south.

1. 150BC
Madinah completes horseman, starts horseman.
MM Makkah to grow in 2/build in 2

Newly built horseman moves south towards the Ottomans.
Horseman in between Makkah/Madinah heads south as well.

Settler/sword pair head for the edge of the plains east of Gordium.

I notice that Feudalism is due in only 2 turns now.
Egypt is up Feudalism, 9gold
Rome up Feudalism, Monarchy, 318 gold
Zulu up Feudalism, 16 gold, down Republic
France up Feudalism, Monarchy 0 gold

We get Feudalism, WM, 16 gold from Zulu for Republic.
I drop research to 0, with the lone scientist in Antioch researching Monotheism, due in 40.
Hawking our WM gets us 4 gold and an updated WM.
284 gold, +35gpt

Our best shield producing city can build Sun Tzu's in 66 turns @9 spt. Even with a GA that will take forever. I think we'll need a leader to rush it. No other civs are working on it yet. Rome is building the Hanging Gardens in Rome, which is the only wonder being produced at this time.

Start moving troops down towards the Ottoman border.

IBT - Quite a few more Ottoman troops show up outside Dharan. 4 archers, 2 warriors and 2 horsemen.
Romans are building Sun Tzu's in Neapolis.

2. 130BC
Kufah builds worker, starts horseman.

I politely ask for the Ottomans to step off of our turf. Osman responds by throwing down the gauntlet. We are now at war with the Ottomans.

Our populace is happier now :)

4/4 horseman retreats from 4/4 warrior, leaving him at 3/4.
4/4 horseman loses to 3/3 warrior, promotes him to 3/4.
3/3 swordsman kills 3/3 archer, at 2/3.

Still moving troops south.

Establish embassy with Rome for 47 gold.

Picture of Rome (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-130BC_rome.jpg)

Their capital is size 4, and producing 11 spt. Their slider is at 4/6/0. Currently in a Monarchy. Building settler, due in 2.
The only buildings in their capital are the Palace and The Great Library.
They have Wines and Incense hooked up, but no horses or iron.
Producing 8 culture/turn, with 304 right now.

Find out that Rome won't accept a MA against the Ottomans. Apparently we had shabby dealings with the Ottomans in the past, and Rome is holding that against us :(

I sign a ROP with Rome, so at least if they do ally against us, they'll take a rep hit. Their attitude moves from Annoyed to Cautious.

While moving swordsmen around, I notice that Spain has a pair of archers near us. They may be heading for Carthage, but probably not. Spain is polite.

I establish an embassy with Carthage to see if they'll join us.

Picture of Carthage (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-130BC_carthage.jpg)

Carthage has 3 luxes plus a source of iron and horses attached. Size 2, producing 3spt. Building Library, due in 14. Currently in Despotism.

Carthage won't ally with us either. Apparently a treaty with us isn't worth the paper it's written upon.

We pay get dogpiled here, as we can't sign any up against the Ottomans, and they can pay the world to take us out.

I don't sign a ROP with Carthage, as they have settlers skirting our territory, and I don't want to make it easier for them to settle.

Pucker factor is currently 9 as I hit enter.

IBT - 3 Spanish archers and a swordsman are on our border.
A Carthage swordsman and archer also look like they want to come play.
More otto troops arrive
Barb horseman appears near Antioch, will sack it next turn.

Egypt is building Sun Tzu's in Thebes.

3. - 110BC
Makkah completes settler, starts horseman.
Damascus completes horseman, starts pikeman.
Riyadh completes horseman, starts pikeman.
Dahran completes temple, starts pikeman.
Najran completes temple, starts walls.
Basra riots.

Ottomans have 2 horsemen, 4 archers and 2 warriors near Dhahran. Currently being guarded by 2 4/4 swordsmen and a 1/4 horseman.

4/4 sword attacks 3/3 horseman, wins, still 4/4

Shuffling troops around to deal with possible attacks up north. Notice a Persian archer heading our way.

256 gold, we'll lose some IBT, so I spend what I can rushing.
64 gold rushing barracks in Alexmanistan.
84 gold rushing pikeman in Jeddah.
56 gold rushing pikeman in Madinah.
52 gold, +26 gpt

IBT -
Ottoman 3/3 archer loses to 4/4 swordsman, 2/4 left
Ottoman 3/3 archer loses to 4/4 swordsman, 1/4 left, promotes.
Ottoman 3/3 archer kills 2/4 swordsman, 3/3 left.

Antioch sacked by Cuman tribe, steal 2 gold.

Several more Spanish archers/swordsmen show up.

4. - 90BC
Madinah completes pikeman, starts pikeman.
Baghdad completes horseman, starts horseman.
Jeddah complete pikeman, starts pikeman.
Basra completes temple, starts walls.
Alexmanistan completes barracks, starts pikeman.

4/4 horseman kills 3/3 archer, 2/4 left.
4/4 swordsman kills 3/3 spearman, 4/4 left.

Anjar founded, starts spearman.

IBT - 4/4 horseman loses to 5/5 horseman, 4/5 left.
2/5 swordsman loses to 3/3 archer, promotes, 3/4 left.
Egypt is building the Hanging Gardens in Giza.

5. - 70BC
4/4 swordsman loses to 4/4 warrior, 3/4 left
4/4 swordsman causes 4/5 horseman to retreat, 4/4 left.

Manage to get a Pikeman to Dhahran, so it should be fine.
Movement

IBT - Spain offers her WM in exchange for our WM and Feudalism. I show her the door.
Indians are building the Hanging Gardens in Delhi.
4/4 swordsman causes 3/3 horseman to retreat, 4/4 left.
4/4 horseman wins to 3/3 archer, 2/4 left.

6. - 50BC
Makkah completes horseman, starts azap.
Diriyah completes horseman, starts horseman.
Dharhan completes pikeman, starts horseman.

Pillage Ottoman horses.

3/3 sword kills 3/3 spear, promotes, 4/4 left.
4/4 sword kills 1/3 horse, 4/4 left.

4 Spanish archers, a swordsman and a spear/settler combo are on our western border. I don't know if they're debating joining this war, or if they are just barb hunting.

IBT - Ottomans sign MA with the Zulu against us.
Zulu are building Sun Tzu's.

2/4 horseman wins against 3/4 warrior, 1/4 left.

Persia signs MA with Zulu against us.
3/3 persian archer commits suicide against the walls of Snagha.

Antioch ransacked by barbs, lose 5 gold.

7. - 30BC
Damascus builds pikeman, starts pikeman.
Antioch finally builds warrior, starts temple.

Ottomans still won't talk.

4/4 sword dies to 3/3 spear, 2/3 left
3/3 sword kills 2/3 spear, 2/3 left
4/4 horse kills 3/3 warrior, 3/4 left

IBT - lots of movement, but no attacks. Ottomans have a lot of reinforcements show up.

8. - 10BC
Madinah completes pikeman, starts pikeman.
Baghdad completes horseman, starts pikeman.

4/4 sword kills 3/3 spear, 4/4 left
4/4 horse kills 3/3 spear, 2/4 left
Edrine autorazed

2/3 sword dies to 2/5 horse
4/4 sword kills 4/4 impi, 1/4 left

Ottomans will talk, but will only accept a straight up peace. I'd like to at least take Uskudar before accepting peace. They are up Monotheism and Monarchy. I'll see if I can do a gpt trade for Monotheism, as you can do them during peace negotiations.

IBT - Pucker factor heads back to 9, as Spanish archers wander through our core. I can't tell her to get out, as we can't affor another civ jumping on the pile.

9. - 10AD
Complete trade link with Carthage and Egypt. Neither has any luxes available, however Egypt needs iron and spices. We can't trade them however, as our rep is shot ;)

Carthage needs spices and silks, but again, we can't trade them.

Rush azap in Dharhran for 88 gold.

IBT - 4/4 pikeman wins against 4/4 warrior, 4/4 left.
Movement all over the place.
Indians building Sun Tzu's in Madras.

10. - 30AD
Makkah completes azap, starts azap
Dharhan completes azap, starts azap

4/4 azap kills 3/3 archer, 4/4 left.

Move some units toward Uskudar

There are several workers and the azap in Makkah that have moves left. I'll let the next player decide how to use them.

There is a settler/spear pair northeast of Basra with moves left. I was going to move them to the iron, but the Spanish stole it from under our feet. There are barb nearby, and Spanish and French settler pairs.

Research is currently at 31 turns remaining to Monotheism. If we don't get it for peace with the Ottomans, then we should turn that up, as by the time the 70 turns at min research complete, we'll be facing muskets with our ansars.

We're at 104 gold, +39gpt. 9/0/1

Here is our land:

Arabian holdings (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-30AD_territory.jpg)

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD30.zip)

I apologize for the sorry state of affairs that our land is in. I think things could've been better if the Ottomans hadn't decided that they wanted to scrumm. They seem to be wholely concerned with taking Dharhran, so it's been easier than I thought. I've only seen 2 persian archers, 1 zulu warrior and 1 zulu impi, so they haven't been much of a threat.

ATTENTION -- Looking at the picture, I just noticed that I hadn't moved a horseman near Persia. He is fortified, and there is a Persian archer next to him. You will want to wake him up this turn, and attack the archer.

Email10

Oct 21, 2003, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by jimmydean

Interesting note: Both the Ottomans and Persia are Scientific, yet neither received a free tech upon entering the Middle Ages. That feature must have been removed from this GOTM.

The scientific traits have been removed for most of the AI civs in the latest GotM:s because of differences in versions. I think in Civ 1.29f the scientific civ always get Monotheism upon entering MA, while in PTW it can get any of the 3 techs Monotheism, Feudalism, Engineering (could be wrong here, but the reasoning was at least close to this ;) ). This is of course a great advantage for the PTW players and therefor the scientific trait was exchanged, mostly to Expansionist I think (did you see any Persian scouts by any chance? :crazyeye: )

ControlFreak

Oct 21, 2003, 07:12 AM

denyd (UP NOW)
DaveShack (Ondeck)
TedJackson
jimmydean

Bummer about the Rep and no MA thing but that happens...probably more often than not in SG games.

I've been thinking about rep a bit. I'm wondering if it's possible to get your rep back. Try getting loans from civs who can afford it, whenever you can afford the gpt payments and aren't going to be attacking. Loans have higher interest if you break a deal. I've wondered if it's like a RL bank that will give you a high interest loan with bad credit, and give you a better rate if you continue to make payments in good faith. You could try this.

I have no idea how to get your MA ability back though.

denyd

Oct 21, 2003, 10:34 AM

OK, I got it...this should be fun...

Initial thoughts, take Urskador and get peace and hopefully Monotheism from Ottoman, kill off last Persian city, push science to limit to get Chivalry and move some defensive troops to SW just in case Zulu send more troops our way, keep building veteran horses for future upgrades.

I'll put some more thought into this and check back at lunch. I'll being playing tonight and probably done by 8pm PDT, if you want to check for the save and results.

denyd

Oct 21, 2003, 02:40 PM

After reviewing the situation a little more...a few more random thoughts

I'll check the available troops in the Dhahran vicinity and if there's enough to protect the city and have a couple left, I'll send them to take (probably autoraze) Konya. Hopefully, the Ottoman will then include Monotheism in a peace agreement. I'll also collect the available northern troops and add Gordium to our city list (good-bye X-man). If it looks like I'll be leveling Konya, I'll switch Mekkah to building a settler to claim that spot. If Monotheism is part of the peace package, I'll go for Cilvalry at the most we can afford. I'll also keep checking with the Zulu for peace.

If I'm correct we're at war with Ottoman, Zulu and Persia only. I'll try to end my 10 with peace all around. That may be changed if Spain gets pushy. They're still pretty small and a tempting target. I hoping Spain has Monotheism, I case we can't get it from the Ottoman (another reason to target them). Not sure where to go with that settler, maybe to the northern shore or possibly to the oasis to the east. If I can get peace a couple more settler/pikeman combo's are in order as there's still a little room to the NE and there is still some unclaimed ivory in southern India.

Any other suggestions?

I'll play early tonight and should have the save posted by 9pm PDT.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 21, 2003, 02:59 PM

Sounds like a plan :)

Anything that gets us to Ansars has to be a good thing.

Ted

denyd

Oct 21, 2003, 05:04 PM

By the way, I normally keep a summary journal of each game I play, here's ours so far:

Ancient Ages Recap – SG GOTM 23

Science:
Starting tech Pottery
Starting tech Ceremonial Burial
Trade with Persia (2550 BC) for The Wheel
Hut (3050 BC) for Alphabet
Trade with Spain (1790 BC) for Writing
Philosophy (1500 BC)
Code of Laws (1200 BC)
The Republic (310 BC)
Mysticism (3000 BC)
Trade with India (775 BC) for Polytheism
Hut (3300 BC) for Warrior Code
Monarchy
Trade with India (1500 BC) Horseback Riding
Trade with Persia (3350 BC) for Bronze Working
Hut (2630 BC) for Iron Working
Trade with Persia (470 BC) for Literature
Trade with Egypt (1225 BC) Map Making
Trade with Egypt (3400 BC) for Masonry
Trade with Persia (1500 BC) Mathematics
Trade with Carthage (470 BC) for Currency
Trade with Spain (470 BC) for Construction

City History:
Mekkah (3950 BC)
Medinah (2510 BC)
Diriyah (2150 BC)
Damascus (1910 BC)
Baghdad (1625 BC)
Ridyah (1450 BC)
Jeddah (1425 BC)
Dhahran (1275 BC)
Najran (875 BC)
Kufah (850 BC)
Alexmanistan (470 BC)
Snaga (330 BC)

Military Conquests:
Pasargdae autorazed in 450 BC
Persepolis captured in 390 BC
Bactra autorazed in 370 BC
Tarsus razed in 310 BC
Susa captured in 270 BC
Arbela razed in 230 BC
Antioch ceded in Peace Treaty in 230 BC

Contacts:
Persia in 3450 BC embassy in 1000 BC
Egypt in 3400 BC
Ottoman in 3050 BC embassy in 670 BC
Zulu in 2900 BC
Carthage in 2750 BC
France in 2750 BC
India in 2430 BC
Spain in 2030 BC
Rome in 1450 BC

Wonder building:
Oracle – Zulu - Zimbabwe
Hanging Gardens
Pyramids – France - Paris
Great Library – Romans - Rome
Great Lighthouse – Egypt - Memphis
Colossus – Egypt - Colossus
Great Wall – Ottoman - Sogut

:beer:

denyd

Oct 22, 2003, 12:44 AM

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD2301.zip)

Turn 0 – 30 AD – Wake 2 veteran Swordsmen in Persepolis and send to Gordium – Wake veteran Swordsman guarding Arbela’s ruins and send to Gordium – Wake Veteran and hook up with Arbela’s sword – Wake Anjar Veteran Sword and send to Gordium – Upgrade Warrior1 to Azap – Wake vet Sword & Horse in desert and send to Baghdad – Reset preferences to personal choices
Trade review:
Could get Peace with Ottoman & Persia, but not ready – Zulu won’t talk yet – Republic to Monarchy +$ deals are available – up to 20% luxury to keep Medinah happy - BTW Spain likes us!! - Maybe next turn – ok here we go again

IBT – Spanish troops keep moving through our territory – Hannibal comes calling wants WM swap if we throw in Feudalism, I don’t think so, we swap TM – Egypt/France/Carthage units move through our lands - Spearman with settler defend against BH attack (4/4) – Damascus builds Pikeman starts temple – Riyadh builds Pikeman starts temple

Turn 1 – 50 AD – Wake Riyadh Vet Sword and send to Konya – Pikeman MP in Ridyah – Wake spearman in Riyadh and send to Medinah – move workers to irrigate Medinah goats – Warrior1 heads to Konya – Azap S of Dinyah heads for Konya – Wake Damascus Sword and send to Dahran – Fortify Pike in Damascus – Workers chop forest for Baghdad – Baghdad sent toward Mekkah with sword trailing – Vet Sword defeats Vet Archer (1/4) – Vet Horse defeats Reg Archer and is promoted to elite (3/5) – Vet Horse defeats Reg Archer (1/4) and no Ottoman troops are visible – remaining horse joins Azap
Trade check:
Egypt +Mono/Monarchy (8g) annoyed – swap TM
Rome +Mono/Eng/Monarchy (28g) cautious – swap TM
India +Monarchy (11g) annoyed – swap TM
Zulu won’t talk
Persia even on tech, will trade for peace, but why
France +Monarchy (70g) polite – swap TM
Spain even on tech polite – trades possible – trade TM
Ottoman at war – peace possible but I think we do better

All cities ok – time to move on

IBT – Spain & France move through – Ottoman comes calling – no deals yet, a couple of Zulu troops show up – Medinah completes Pikeman starts temple – Baghdad complete pikeman starts horseman – Kufah completes horseman starts another – Zulu have 2 Impi & 1 horseman

Turn 2 – 70 AD – Send Azap to Kufah – Send horseman to Damascus – Medinah Sword sent to Konya – Medina Pike MP – Azap & horse reach Konya – Sword & 2 horse return to Dharan to heal – Baghdad Pike MP – wake 1 Baghdad spear and send to Aleximanistan – Gang of 4 swords heading for Gordium join horse & sword going the same way – workers irrigate for Najran – another horse reaches Konya – road from Persepolis to Antioch begins
Trade Check – possible Carthage & Spain Republic deals – all else the same

IBT – Lots more troops passing through – looks like the Zulu are interested in Kufah – Dinyah completes Horseman starts temple – France starts Sun Tzu’s – France start Hanging Gardens

Turn 3 – 90 AD – 2 horses reach Damascus – workers flee from Zulu – Warrior1 sent to Kufah – Spearman MP in Medinah – Sword & horse heal in Dahran – workers with escort move to Najran – sword reaches Mekkah – wake workers building road to flee BH – Spear/Settler reach home on the Oasis hill – Veteran Horse wins attacking Vet Impi and is promoted to Elite (5/5) – Veteran Azap kills Vet Horse (2/4) – Spearman reaches Aleximanistan MP – Sword from A-town leaves to barb hunt – Veteran Azap kills Veteran Horse in Konya and it autorazes – not enough to convince Ottoman yet horses head for Antalya – swords to Urskador
Trade Check: No changes – Republic trades still there
Need to hire a clown in Persepolis – Checked by moving slider to max we can afford we get Monotheism in 26 turns instead of 28 – need for 20% luxuries is hurting

IBT A Spanish sword kills threatening BH – Impi attacks Azap and loses, Azap promoted to elite (2/5) – Makkah builds Azap – starts another

Turn 4 – 110 AD horses sent to Dharan then on to Antalya – foot troops to Urskador – Settler founds Fustat starts temple Spearman MP in Fustat
Trade Check: Peace with Zulu (no extras either way) – Trade Republic to Spain for Worker + 80g + WM – Peace with Ottoman getting Monotheism + WM + 21g – Trade Republic to Carthage for Monarchy + WM
Research Chivalry – able to hire clown in Medina and lower lux slider – Chivalry now due in 17 – Bank 245 (-9gpt) – with peace switch Azap & Pike to Horseman – also switch walls to temple

All in all a pretty good turn

IBT
More foreign units (lots of settlers) heading east – Xerxes asks for peace – but I refuse – Damascus builds temple starts horseman – Dhranan builds a horseman starts another

Turn 5 – 130 AD – Who’s next is the question? After looking at who doesn’t like us and the military strength – the winner is Egypt – Foot troops heading for Byblos & Asyut – mounted for Lisht & Avaris
Trade Check:
Swap TM with Egypt (annoyed tech even, 39g)
Swap TM with Rome (annoyed +eng, 2g)
Swap TM with India (annoyed –Mono, 3g)
Swap TM with Zulu (furious even, 10g)
Swap TM with France (polite –Mono, 30g)
Trade Silks + Spices to Carthage (polite –Mono/Eng/Feudal) for Dyes
Trade TM with Ottoman (furious even, 0g)
Trade TM with Spain (polite –Monarchy/Mono/Feudal, 0g)

IBT
Spanish Sword kills BH – Spain & Ottoman sign peace – Persia moves troops to cut off assault force – Medinah builds temple starts horseman (fire clown) – Baghdad builds horseman starts another – Carthage building Hanging Gardens

Turn 6 – 150 AD – Swordsman kills BW and disperse village – Vet Sword kills Reg Archer (1/4)
Trade Check:
Zulu & France now +eng – no other changes

IBT
Lots of settlers moving and BW dies attacking French spearman – Mekkah builds Settler starts pikeman – Zulu building Hanging Garden

Turn 7 – 170 AD – Troops move on assigned path – settler sent to old Konya spot – Spearman escorting 4 workers roading to new site – Horseman kills Persian Archer (3/4) – Attack force in place (final Persian turn)
Trade Check:
Egypt/India now with Eng
Trade Monotheism + WM + 25g to Spain for Engineering

IBT – A couple of Zulu move into territory (3 impi & 2 archers) – Diriyah builds temple starts pikeman – Palace Expansion # 4 – Ottomans building Hanging Gardens

Turn 8 – 190 AD – move pikeman & warrior to Kurfa (to greet Zulu in case) – Vet Swordsman loses attack on Vet Spear (1/4) – Vet Swordsman loses attack on Reg Spear (3/3) – Vet Swordsman kills Reg Spear) – Vet Horseman kills final spear and Gordium is ours and Persia is gone – 6 foot in place & 7 on the way – 7 horse in place and 2 on the way
Trade check:
No changes – not happy with Zulu troops – 16 turns left on peace, let’s see what happens now.

IBT
Settlers keep heading east – Zulu move around cities, but nothing bad (yet!!) – Damascus completes horseman starts pikeman – Damascus has border expansion – Baghdad builds horseman starts another – Riyadh builds temple starts horseman – Jeddah completes horseman starts temple – Alexmanistan completes horseman starts temple – Palace Expansion # 5

Turn 9 – 210 AD – Divert 4 ground units (2 swords/1 pike/1 Azap) to welcome Zulus – Jeddah horse sent to Damascus – Damascus horse MP – A-town horse moves to cover workers – Baghdad horse moves to cover workers – Wounded Gordium liberators heal in town – Gordium horse sent to Antioch – Warrior3 moves to Riyadh
Trade Check:
No changes – We’re the richest – even (or better) on tech with all

IBT
No real action just lots of troops moving – I don’t like the what the Zulu is up to – Makkah builds Pikeman starts another – Medinah builds Horseman starts pikeman border expansion- Dhranan builds horseman starts another – Khurasan builds Barracks starts pikeman – Carthage building Sun Tzu – Spain building Sun Tzu

Turn 10 – 230 AD – Well it’s looks like I made it – we’re at peace (for not much longer I bet) – Chivalry is due in 15 turns – were even on tech – have 16 vet horsemen ready to become Ansar Warriors (if we can find the bucks) – Makkah pikeman MP – Medinah horse to Makkah – Zulu welcoming party fortifies on iron – road to new city site is done. Rome has a settler next to spot (I hope he doesn’t steal it) – Swordsman reaches Furstat
Final Trade Check:
Egypt – Annoyed – 14g – even on tech – swap TM - Republic
Rome – Annoyed – 47g – even on tech – swap TM - Monarchy
India – Annoyed – 12g – even on tech – swap TM - Republic
Zulu – Furious – 0g – even on tech – swap TM - Republic
France – Polite – 48g – even on tech – swap WM - Republic
Carthage – Polite – 35g – down Monotheism & Engineering – Monarchy
Ottoman – Furious – 5g – even on tech – Swap TM - Republic
Spain – Annoyed – 50g – even on tech – Swap TM – Republic

We are strong military compared to all

Histograph:
Arabia 573
Rome 490
Egypt 470
France 454
Zululand 383
Ottoman 362
Carthage 335
India 306
Spain 241
Persia 220 :hammer:

I'll post a little bit of analysis tomorrow.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 01:59 AM

Got it

Looks like I'll have a breather :)

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 06:21 AM

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Pre-turn
Persepolis fires Clown
Makkah, Madinah, Dhahran switch to Market
Increase Research spending to 40% (11 turns @ -20gpt)
Hawk WM - making 58gp

Press button
Lots of AI units strolling through our territory
Basra Walls - Barracks

1 - 250AD
Workers concentrate on roading to bring in more gp
Sword fort Fustat
Hawk WM for 8gp

IBT
Kufah Horse - Worker (zero growth)

2 - 260AD
Workers road...
Aden founded - Barracks
Increase Research to 50% (6 turns @ -46gpt) We should be just able to meet the cost by hawking WM every turn
Hawk WM for 12gp

IBT
Rome asks for RoP - I give it, not wanting to provoke anyone for a few more turns
Diriyah Pike - Horse
Damascus Pike - Horse
Baghdad Horse - Market

3 - 270AD
Pike fort Damascus
Pike fort Diriyah
Horse fort Baghdad
SoD heads for Riyadh
Hawk WM for 11gp

IBT
Spain starts Hanging Gardens

4 - 280AD
Workers road...
SoD fort Riyadh
Hawk WM for 14gp
Increase Research to 60% (3 turns @ -59gpt with 175gp in the bank)

IBT
Egypt starts Sistine Chapel (Theology)

5 - 290AD
Madinah grows to pop 11 - hire Taxman
Workers work...
Send a couple of Pike to Nakkah as there's a Sword on the doorstep
Hawk WM for 8gp
Egypt has monopoly on Theology

IBT
Susa Temple - Barracks
Kufah Worker - Horse

6 - 300AD
Research 50% (1 turn @ -47gpt)
Workers work...
Hawk WM for 11gp
Egypt still has monopoly on Theology

IBT
Discover Chivalry - Invention

7 - 310AD
Workers work...
Research set to lone scientist (Gordium)
We're only making 44gpt but there are 2 Markets coming online before my turns end and a couple more later. There are 4 Ansars in production so I'll try to finish my turns peacefully and leave upgrading to the next player.
Hawk WM for 7gp

Tech Status
Rome down Chivalry
India down Chivalry
Carthage down Monotheism, Engineering & Chivalry
Carthage down Chivalry
France down Chivalry - up Theology & Invention (they must have discovered Invention and traded with Egypt for Theology)
Zulu down Chivalry
Spain down Chivalry
Egypt down Chivalry - up Theology & Invention
We could get Invention, a Worker & 11gp from France in exchange for Chivalry but I think it better to hang onto Chivalry and don't want to lower the price of Invention.

IBT
Makkah Market - Ansar
Sirpebidah Temple - Lib (cultural pressure on Toledo)
Rome starts Leonardo's (Invention)
Rome starts Sistine (Theology)

8 - 320AD
Workers work...
Damascus switches to Market
Diriyah switches to Market
I just had a sweep rounf our core cities and most of them are now working at least one unroaded, unimproved tile so we need to fit a round of workers into the production schedule.
Hawk WM for 10gp
Rome is now down Chivalry - up Theology & Invention

IBT
We seem to have some units in Carthagian territory :(

9 - 330AD
Workers work...
Hawk WM for 10gp

IBT
Rome wants Chivalry for Theology - buy his WM for 1gp instead
Madinah Market - Worker
Khurasan Pike - Worker
Egypt starts Leonardo's (Invention)

10 - 340AD
Pike fort Khurasan
Workers work...
Trading left for next player

AI Status
Egypt - Republic, annoyed, down Chivalry, up Theology & Invention, 5gp
Rome - Monarchy, annoyed, down Chivalry, up Theology & Invention, 8gp
India - Republic, annoyed, down Chivalry, up Invention, 1gp
Zulu - Republic, annoyed, down Chivalry, 8gp
France - Republic, polite, down Chivalry, up Theology & Invention, 35gp
Carthage - Monarchy, cautious, down Monotheism & the rest, 26gp
Ottoman - Republic, furious, down Chivalry, 0gp
Spain - Republic, annoyed, down Chivalry, up Invention, 63gp

Notes
We desperately need to improve our roads and tiles. I've done what I could but more is needed.
I hung onto our Chivalry monopoly so we should have an extra edge in the upcoming wars.
There's 220gp in the bank and we're adding 70gpt.
The next player can start upgrading the Horses and look for targets. Personally, I think I'd take on India. They're weak, have Ivory & Wines and we might get luck with a GL to build the FP in Madras or Delhi.
I' researching at lone scientist (the unhappy citizen in Gordium) as I think we'll be able to beat any techs we need out of the AI.

No screenshot as little has changed. The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD0340.zip)

ControlFreak

Oct 22, 2003, 07:56 AM

I will be unable to continue running this game. TedJackson, could you please see that it stays on schedule?

I posted my reasons here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66633) .

I am truly sorry I am unable to continue. I wish you well and good luck.

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 08:10 AM

Sorry to see you go CF but I understand your reasons.

OK team, I should have an easy job running this as you all seem to be doing just fine :D

Ted

cracker

Oct 22, 2003, 10:22 AM

I should reinforce that you all seem to be doing well and enjoying the game plus getting a lot out of it.

Best wishes and thoughts to ControlFreak and our thoughts go out to you. I can still remember when you were ControlFreakarabi.

TedJackson, mak sure you PM me if there is anything you or anyone else would need.

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 10:30 AM

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement & the offer of assistance Cracker.

I'll be sure to get in touch towards the end of the game to ensure I deal correctly with the scoring issues.

Ted

denyd

Oct 22, 2003, 11:04 AM

I wrote this on my laptop during a very boring HR presentation this morning. I just read the message from CF and must admit I've felt the same way recently My wife and son are in San Francisco for two weeks for family birthdays (I had to work and was saving vacation time for the holidays) and my evenings are spent with Civ. Hopefully I will get filled up during the remaining days and will throttle back play in November. I also just read TJ's turn log and while I think India is a good target, my choice for Egypt/Zulu (outlined below), might be a better one. By the way nice work with the science slider. I rarely sell my WM's, I'll have to try that in other games.

Below are my thoughts on this game as it ended last night:

I was thinking about this on my drive in this morning and if we go after Egypt and Zulu, we’ll be using a 4 attack factor (Ansars/Azap) versus a 2 defense (Chariots/Spear/Impi) as neither of them have any iron sources. Completing the circle through Spain, France and Carthage would net us the entire western world. We should try to get through this cycle quickly or else we’ll be facing muskets. Once our first Ansar wins, we’ll be in a golden age and we should probably then concentrate on getting as much military (Ansar/Azap/Pikemen) as possible built during those 20 turns. I propose we start with an Ansar attack on the Lisht and an Azap attack on Asyut. Ansars would then move on to Avaris and meet up with the Azap force in Byblos. Using the Ansar speed to collect the smaller cites and the Azap power to take the larger ones, Egypt should fall very quickly. Also pikemen will be needed for MP duty. We should probably depend on pointy-stick research for the near future and use our cash for horse & sword upgrades. I don’t think we’ll need to build any workers as there should be quite a few slaves joining our current workers. We will need a few settlers to fill in for any razed cities. Temples should be built first in captured cites to fill in territory gaps.

Comments??

=========================================

To ControlFreak,

I wish you the best and hope you're able to happily move forward with your life. As an aside, my wife and I have been discussing some sort of earn your Civ time arrangement, like 1 hour exercise = 1 hour civ / 2 hours chores = 1 hours civ, etc.
Give that some thought. I've tried to limit my forum time to lunch and breaks while playing only after 10pm on weeknights. This last week has been an exception, since the family is away.

Deny

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 11:24 AM

Denyd,

Zulu have Iron SW of Ngome and NE of Intombe (both connected) but you're right about Egypt, they have no Iron :D

So they would make an ideal training ground for our vet Ansars, hopefully promoting a few to elite along the way.

If that's the way we go then we might as well attack Carthage or Zulu next as we won't want to turn around and march all the way to India.

On further inspection Carthage only has 1 Iron - Theveste is founded on it. That would seem to make them second on the 'Hit List' :)

Ted

denyd

Oct 22, 2003, 04:35 PM

They must have hooked it up recently. I tried to buy peace them early in my turn set with Iron for gpt deal and they refused, but they were willing to peace without any concessions instead.

I agree with you as to the Egyptians. I hesitate a little on Carthage only because they'll make a per turn deal with us. I think if we challenge the Zulu to leave, we'll get a war. I worry a little about the Ottoman at our back. I wouldn't be too surprised to see them jump in to any wars we get into. I've been thinking a deal involving Invention & Chivalry might get the Romans in our side to keep the Ottoman busy.

I'd also like to find a way to get to France before they start getting Musketeers in quantity.

Who's up???

TedJackson

Oct 22, 2003, 04:52 PM

Denyd,
I was thinking:
A) Egypt, Carthage then Zulu (coming round to France & Spain to take the West completely)
B) Egypt, Carthage then Ottoman (puhing on to India to take the middle of the map).

Both options have merits & drawbacks and it will depend on how quickly we can take out Egypt. Either way it'll be a lot of fun :)

Roster
jimmydean --> Up now
denyd --> On deck
DaveShack
TedJackson

Ted

DaveShack

Oct 22, 2003, 08:09 PM

Did you skip me? I was expecting to find myself "up now" and see that denyd posted at 11:40 PM or so, and then TJ picked it up just an hour or so later at 12:40 AM or so (just after midnight) the next day.

denyd

Oct 22, 2003, 08:26 PM

Dave,

I just realized you're right. I thought that you'd played between my turns and Ted's.

Since JimmyDean hasn't said got it yet, why don't you jump in here and have him follow when you've finished. I probably won't be able to play tomorrow night, so would likely delay my turn until Friday night.

Deny

:beer:

LordKestrel

Oct 22, 2003, 10:51 PM

Sorry, I've been pretty much passed out for the last half day from excessive alcohol consumption following the red hot chili peppers concert I was at last night. I won't be able to play for at least 12 hours, so if you want to skip me, no problem.

DaveShack

Oct 22, 2003, 11:41 PM

Hi JimmyDean,

We don't need to skip you, TedJackson played early so I need to catch up. You'll be after me, and then we're back on schedule with denyd next.

btw... got it

TedJackson

Oct 23, 2003, 01:13 AM

My apologies everyone,

I obviously had a major brainfart & leapt into the fray too early :)

So DaveShack you're Up now followed by jimmydean next. Then we'll fall back into normal order.

Ted

DaveShack

Oct 23, 2003, 02:35 AM

Ted, no problem... :)

Here is a log of the 1st 5 turns. In position to start hostilities with Egypt. I have an abnormally early meeting at work tomorrow so need to finish tomorrow night, hope that's OK.

Preturn

Nothing needs changed, pressing enter

IBT

Lots of settler stacks moving around
Madinah completes worker, starts ansar
Alexmanistan completes temple, starts pikeman
French building Sistine Chapel (theology)

Turn 1, 350AD, 110g+67gpt, Invention in 36

3 Bagdhad workers move to build a strategic road to Dhahran w/horse
Move 5 more workers to a roaded tile for movement next turn. Bagdhad
won't grow for around 10 more turns (needs Aqueduct) so workers better
used elsewhere.

Fort pike on small stack outside Asyut
Upgrade 4 vet horses to Ansars in Riyadh.
Move part of the stack on iron toward Asyut. Realized after doing this
that maybe they were there to dissuade Carthage from attempting a sneak
attack + pillage, will see what happens IBT.

IBT

Indians building Sistene Chapel
Several foreign troops withdraw, we probably passed through a threshold
for the strength ratio.

Turn 2, 360AD, 117g+67gpt. Forgot to hawk wm, need to remember that this time

Workers work, move one of the swords from the iron back to it, back to 2 units.
Foot troops continue congregating at Asyut.

Egypt has Theology, Invention, 54g, lacks chivalry.
Zulu same, 4g
France same, 9g
Ottomans have 2g, lack chivalry.
Carthage have 33g, lack Monotheism
India has 3g, Theology, Invention, lack chivalry
Rome has 7g, Theology, Invention, lack chivalry
Spain has 3g, Invention, lack Chivalry
Hawk WM for 8g, now have 125
Upgrade 2 more vet horse to Ansar
Move 2 elite horses out of the Riyadh stack to keep from accidentally upgrading

IBT

Lots of aimless AI movement
Makkah produces Ansar, starts another
Snagha produces barracks, starts pike (30 turns)
Khurasan produces worker, starts pike (10 turns)

Turn 3, 370AD, 72g+64gpt, Invention in 34
Foot to assembly point near Asyut
Upgrade 1 horse
6 Ansar head for lower Egypt (Lisht, Buto, Avaris)
Spain would buy spices for 4gpt (guess our rep is coming back?)
Egypt would buy spices for 3gpt
No further changes in trading situation

IBT

drat, persepolis riots -- haven't been tracking that :( hired taxman
Jeddah produces temple, start pike (15)
Anjar produces temple, start barracks (40)
Zulu building sistine chapel

Turn 4, 380AD, 84g+62gpt, Invention in 33
Ansars, elite horses advance
Hawk WM
Upgrade 1 horse in Damascus

IBT

Damascus completes market, starts Ansar
Bagdhad completes market, starts Aqueduct
Riyadh completes Ansar, starts Pikeman
Palace expansion

Turn 5, 390AD, 97g+78gpt (markets), Invention in 32

upgrade horse
Position ansars for Egypt war (9 ansars, 2 elite horse on station)
10 mixed foot on station at Asyut

Trade check, tech situation unchanged
Ottomans lack iron
India lacks horses
Egypt lacks iron :D
Hawk WM

At this point I'm stopping for the night, have a much earlier day than
usual at work.
The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_AD0390.SAV)

LordKestrel

Oct 23, 2003, 02:45 AM

Looking good so far. Hopefully you'll have a productive war, and the GA should help production.

Do we want to use the GA to build infrastructure (markets, temples, libraries), or do we use it to just pump ansars out? I think the ansar are only 60 shields, so we can probably get several cities producing them every 3 turns. If we're lucky, we'll be able to produce 2 a turn from our cities, which will help replace the ones we lose.

TedJackson

Oct 23, 2003, 07:54 AM

I think using the GA to press our military advantage would be best.

Remember domination is our goal (or have I said that before :))

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 24, 2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by TedJackson
I think using the GA to press our military advantage would be best.

Remember domination is our goal (or have I said that before :))

A reminder is always useful for me. In my games, I tend to err on the side of peace, and so they probably end up finishing later than they could. For some reason, most of my games end up a domination win, but it's generally because I get sneak attacked, and so have to punish the civ responsible. After they are gone, and I've taken over their territory, someone else attacks me, and then I have to take them over. Most of my wars are either purely defensive, or I have overwhelming numbers, and I just roll over the AI. I rarely am in a situation like we are, where we're pretty evenly matched with the AI, and we're going to war. So all the help that everyone can provide as regards strategy would be nice.

Also, as I said, I tend to be peaceful in my games, so I'm definitely not as able as some when it comes to war. I'll try and stay away from the :smoke:, however I can't guarantee anything.

DaveShack

Oct 24, 2003, 02:44 AM

Summary:

We are at war with Egypt and have captured everything in the immediate vicinity.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD440.SAV)

restarting play

IBT

lost supply of dyes
Carthage popup, renewal of dyes for spices+silks, OK
Egypt has 2 chariots at Asyut
Dhahran completes market, starts ansar

Turn 6, 400AD, 122g+85gpt, Invention in 31

Upgrade 2 horses.
Workers work

Trade check

Egypt up Theology+Invention, 7g, down Chivalry
India same, 0g
Carthage down Monotheism, have 7g
Ottomans down Chivalry, have 14g
France up Theology+Invention, 51g, down Chivalry
Zulu same, 6g
Spain up Invention, 53g, down Chivalry
Rome up Theology, Invention, 6g, down Chivalry

Declare war with Egypt
Asyut:
5/5 Azap vs 3/3 Chariot redlines chariot but loses
4/4 Azap vs 1/3 Chariot wins untouched
4/4 Ansar vs 4/4 Chariot wins untouched
Our great civilization enters a golden age :)
Now 2g+159gpt

Lisht
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear, wins 3/4
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear, retreats 1/4, spear 2/3
4/4 Ansar vs 2/3 Spear, wins untouched, Lisht liberated, produce temple

Buto
5/5 Horse vs 3/3 spear, loses without touching enemy
5/5 Horse vs 4/4 spear, wins 3/5
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 chariot, wins 4/4, Buto liberated producing temple, 2 slaves

Avaris
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 spear, wins 4/4, Avaris liberated, produce temple
Capture 3 additional slaves enroute to Byblos

Byblos
Loose 4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 spear, wins 3/4

End of turn, now 2g+163gpt, took 3 towns

IBT

Very little AI movement, nothing at all from Egypt this turn
Makkah completes Ansar, starts Ansar
Madinah completes Ansar, starts Ansar
Diriyah completes marketplace, starts Aqueduct
Antioch completes temple, starts barracks
Najran completes barracks, starts Pikeman

Turn 7, 410AD, 2g+163gpt, Invention in 30
Asyut
4/4 Azap vs 3/3 Spear, wins 2/4
4/4 Azap vs 3/3 Spear, loses 1/3 promote to 2/4
4/4 Azap vs 2/4 Spear, loses to 1/4
4/4 Sword vs 3/3 Horse, Wins 2/4
4/4 Sword vs 1/4 Spear, Wins untouched, Asyut liberated, produce temple
2 slaves captured (settler)
Remaining foot stack enters Asyut

Byblos
3/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear, wins 2/4
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear, wins 2/4
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear, wins 4/4
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Archer, wins 3/4, Byblos liberated, produce temple
Fort Ansar, captured 4 slaves (2 settlers)
Fort all the captured towns
Upgrade 2 horses to Ansars

End of turn, 45g+169gpt

IBT

AI moves, nothing threatening
Palace expansion
Spanish building Leo's

Turn 8, 420AD, 214g+167gpt, Invention in 29
Upgrade horse
Workers work

Hieraconpolis
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 spear, wins 3/4
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 spear, loses, enemy untouched
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 spear, wins, Hieraconpolis liberated, produce temple

Upgrade horse

IBT

Chariot from Pi-Ramesses attacks 4/4 ansar near Hieraconpolis, loses, Ansar 5/5

Turn 9, 430AD, 263g+171gpt, Invention in 28
JFG check to see what invention would be at max: 6 turns at +1gpt
Next player can decide if we go back to doing our own research or
try to get tech from Egypt in a temporary peace

Pi-Ramesses
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear wins 2/5
4/4 Ansar vs 3/3 Spear wins 3/5, liberated, produce temple

IBT

Egypt requests audience. They will give Invention or Theology but not both
Just say no...

Persepolis produces Barracks, starts Pikeman
Makkah produces Ansar, starts library (might as well get some buildings)
Damascus produces Ansar, starts Aqueduct
Dhahran produces Ansar, starts Aqueduct
Basra produces Barraks, starts Pikeman
Alexmanistan produces Pikeman, starts Ansar
Khurasan produces Pikeman, starts Ansar
Thebes completes Sun Tsu (might as well go ahead and take it now... :D
Romans building Leo's
Romans building Sistene
Pompeii completes Hanging Gardens
Indians building Sistene
Indians building Leo's
Zulu building Sistene
Zulu building Leo's
French building Sistene
French building Leo's
Spanish building Leo's

Turn 10, 440AD, 436g+169gpt, Invention in 27

Move loose ansard produced in cities to jumping off point near Riyadh

Summary
At war with Egypt
No agreements with anyone

Notes:

Some elite units fortified in captured cities, replace with veteran
foot units asap.
Egypt built Sun Tsu's in Thebes, and are willing to talk but the offer is light
Approx 15 turns left on GA

DaveShack

Oct 24, 2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by jimmydean

I rarely am in a situation like we are, where we're pretty evenly matched with the AI, and we're going to war. So all the help that everyone can provide as regards strategy would be nice.

Well, we're not very even any more... ;)

We're after 3 things: The obvious domination goal, to get a Great Leader by careful use of Elites, and "pointy stick research" where we can catch up in tech by making peace. A 4th goal is now possible, capturing Thebes also captures Sun Tsu's.

Your turn to :hammer: egypt.

Edit: Sorry about the lack of screenshots and ending trade summary, had a 12 hour day at work and can't stay up any longer...

TedJackson

Oct 24, 2003, 02:52 AM

@jimmydean
probably the most important fact to remember about Ansar's is that their defense is only 2. This makes them an easy target for the AI if they're left unprotected.

Try to use them in conjunction with Pikes (or Muskets) so that they have a safe base to return to.

I think I probably mentioned earlier that Ansars, with their 3 movement points, are ideal for Move, Attack then retreat tactics. So I tend to assemble smaller stacks (3-5 Ansars plus a couple of Pike and maybe a Catapult or two) and have more stacks better able to attack multiple targets.

Pillaging is always an option as this can quickly bring the AI to grinding halt, unable to produce new troops or only produce them at a much slower rate.

If we get a GL then the first should build an Army as this will allow us to build Heroic Epic which (in case you don't know) increases our chances of getting future GLs.

Sorry to ramble on but I just wanted to give you some general pointers as you seemed a liitle unsure.

Ted

DaveShack

Oct 24, 2003, 02:57 AM

Thanks for the tip regarding sending better defenders along behind Ansars. We are quite short of foot defenders right now, maybe some production should be shifted that way, and maybe some warrior upgrades.

LordKestrel

Oct 24, 2003, 09:44 AM

I'll grab this in about 12 hours when I get home from work.

edit: tj, thanks for the tip on the defense, I had forgotten about that.

TedJackson

Oct 24, 2003, 09:55 AM

I learnt this lesson about Ansar defense the hard way so I tend to err on the side of caution now :)

Ted

denyd

Oct 24, 2003, 06:15 PM

Dave,

Nice set of turns. Very successful :hammer: job on Egypt so far.

Those are also a nice set of objectives for this war. Getting 3 of 4 (GL's are always RNG dependent) would push us a lot closer to victory.

I agree with Ted, in pushing out the troops while in the GA. Each new city should get a temple for expansion purposes, then start troops. Getting Sun Tzu's will allow us to skip the barracks building and get some money back. We should also consider upgrading any non-elite horse / sword to Ansar / Azap. At the current pace, we'll also need some pike for MP duty pretty soon.

I'll be off line until Saturday night.

Deny

LordKestrel

Oct 24, 2003, 09:43 PM

Just got a call from the ole girl :love: , and she's decided that we're going dancing tonight.:cry: I won't be able to play until tomorrow morning, GMT - 7.

LordKestrel

Oct 26, 2003, 04:48 PM

I apologize for the long delay. I'm playing now, probably be done in about 2 hours.

LordKestrel

Oct 26, 2003, 06:17 PM

Only on turn 6, and it's already been two hours. Perhaps another 1.5. Some good things have happened so far though :D

LordKestrel

Oct 26, 2003, 08:24 PM

Turnlog 440AD

Move some Ansars that were fortified in captured Egyptian cities towards the front.

Trade territory map around, get 3 gold, plus everyone's updated territory map.
Egypt has a trade going with Carthage, hopefully not for their iron.

My plan will be to take Giza and then Memphis. After that, head for Thebes and capture Sun Tzus.

Egypt's land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-440AD_egypt.jpg)

IBT - assorted AI worker movement, nothing from Egypt
Egypt is building Sistine
Egypt is building Leos
Ottomans are building Sistine
Spanish are building Sistine

1. 450AD
Madinah completes Ansar, begins Ansar, due in 4
Riyadh completed Pikeman, begins Ansar, due in 10

Move newly

Take Giza with a single 4/4 Ansar, still at 4/4. Egypt is looking pretty weak right about now.
Move some more troops up to Giza for the assault on Memphis.
Capture a slave.

IBT -
4/4 Ansar retreats to a Longbowman, now 1/4
1/4 Ansar dies to a War Chariot.

2. 460AD
Baghdad builds Aqueduct, starts Ansar, due in 4
Jeddah completes Pikeman, starts Pikeman, due in 6

5/5 Ansar kills 2/3 War Chariot, now 4/5
5/5 Ansar kills 2/3 Longbowman, still 5/5
4/4 Ansar kills 4/4 Spearman, now 1/4
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, now 2/4
We capture Memphis, and now control the Great Lighthouse [party]
4 out of 5 pop are resisters.

Move Ansars up to Memphis, so they can use it as a staging point for the assault on Thebes, and also to control the resisters.

IBT - RoP with Rome comes up for renewal, and I accept.
A pair of 4/4 Egyptian Longbows move into the hills next to Memphis.

3. 470AD
Makkah completes Library, starts Ansar, 3 turns.
Makkah is producing 29 spt, so if we can get it over that magic 30 spt point, we'll produce an Ansar every 2 turns.

Memphis stops resisting, starts rioting. I turn all 5 pop into Tax Collectors.

5/5 Ansar kills 4/4 Longbowman, 4/5
5/5 Horseman kills 4/4 Longbowman, 5/5

4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 4/5
4/5 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 2/5
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 3/4
We capture Thebes, and now control Sun Tzu's Art of War and The Collosus.
9/10 pop is resisting.
Capitol jumps to Heliopolis.
With as lousy as our culture is, Thebes will probably flip.

4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 4/5
4/4 Ansar retreats to 3/3 Spearman, did no damage
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 3/4
We capture Elephantine
4/5 pop are resisters

4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 1/4
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 1/4
We capture El-Amarna
4/5 pop are resisters

(Can you tell I want to get this war over with quickly? :)

Egypt has 4 cities left. There are two of them in the old Egyptian homeland, one out past Zulu territory, and I can't find the 4th. I'll negotiate peace once I take these two, as Egypt is already willing to throw in all their gold and tech for peace.

IBT - Carthage moves more of their enormous worker force around. We'll pick up a ton of slaves once we conquer them.
Carthage starts Leonardo's Workshop

4. 480AD
Kufah completes Ansar, starts Ansar, due in 10
Fustat completes Temple, starts Worker, due in 10

We're ready to take Heliopolis and Alexandria next turn.

IBT - nothing

5. 490AD
Madinah completes Ansar,start Ansar, due in 4
Diriyah complete Aqueduct, starts Ansar, due in 5

El-Amarna flips (had 2 1/4 Ansars in it)
Aden completes Barracks (I should've changed this), starts Temple

4/4 Ansar dies to 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 2/4
5/5 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, 5/5
Still a 2/4 Spearman left in El-Amarna

5/5 Ansar retreats against 3/3 Spearman, 2/3
4/4 Ansar retreast against 3/3 Spearman, 2/3
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 3/5
4/4 Ansar kills 2/3 Spearman, 2/4
4/4 Ansar kills 2/3 Spearman, 3/4
We capture Heliopolis
4/5 are resisters

4/4 Ansar retreats against 3/3 Spearman, 2/3
4/4 Ansar kills 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 4/5
5/5 Horseman kills 2/3 Spearman, promotes, GL !!!!
We capture Alexandria
3/4 resisting
GL builds army
Load 3 Vetern Ansars into Army, but can't fight this turn.

After I capture El-Amarna with our Army, I'll get peace with Egypt. Next target Zulu (our troops are in the area, and they're small).

I use a captured slave to build a Furs colony, as it'll be some time before our border expands to cover it. We now have 5 luxuries, and are importing a 6th from Carthage.

IBT - nada

6. 500AD
Makkah build Ansar, starts Ansar, due in 3
Baghdad builds Ansar, starts Ansar, due in 4
Heliopolis riots (resistance ended, so all the resisters rioted, no grace turn here).

Made a stupid move with our Army, so I reloaded from the autosave.

12/12 Army kills 3/3 Spearman, promotes, 7/13
Change Makkah from Ansar to Heroic Epic, due in 8

In preparation for peace, I check trades.
Egypt up Invention and Theology. 45 gold, 13gpt.
Rome up Invention and Theology. 16 gold, 0gpt.
India up Invention and Theology. Down Chivalry. 12 gold, 0gpt.
Zulu up Invention and Theology. 24 gold, 0gpt.
France up Invention and Theology. 156 gold, 30gpt.
Carthage up Invention and Theology. Down Chivalry. 0 gold, 0gpt.
Ottomans up Invention and Theology. Down Chivalry. 2 gold, 0gpt.
Spain up Invention and Theology. 0 gold, 0gpt.

Seeing as how everyone is at least 2 techs ahead of us, I'll trade for them first, in the hope that Egypt has more techs past them.
I'll also try and keep Chivalry away from Carthage and the Ottomans, as we don't want our neighbors with Knights.

Trade Chivalry and 14 gold to India for Invention.
Egypt, Rome, Zulu, France and Spain have Gunpowder.

Trade WM+333 gold to France for Theology.
Egypt, Rome and France have Education.

Trade peace for Education, Gunpowder, WM, 19 gold, 10gpt and Edfu with the Egyptians.

Edfu is a size 2 town on an island in the middle of the northern sea.

We have 0 Saltpeter in any of our lands. The Zulu have Saltpeter, but it's not hooked up yet.
Research set to Music Theory, due in 40 (lone scientist running out of Gordium, which is still revolting because of excessive whipping.

IBT - AI movement
Carthage is building Sistine.

7. 510AD
Damascus completes Aqueduct, starts Ansar, due in 4.
Dharhran completes Aqueduct, starts Ansar, due in 4.
Asyut completes Temple, starts Pikeman, due in 10.

Zulu still doesn't have Saltpeter hooked up. Moving troops towards the border to get ready to take their Iron city.

Notice that we DO have Saltpeter. I just didn't notice it, because of the location. It's one tile south of Anjar, next to the ruins of an old Persian town. Move worker and slave onto it, will be roaded in two turns.

IBT - Carthage has a ton of workers moving all over the place. Of course, they also have Saltpeter, which makes taking them over difficult. Not to mention, they are also once of the few civs that will trade lux for lux with us, and we have 10 turns to go on that. Still, looking at all those potential slaves is making me drool :)

8. 520AD
Jeddah completes Pikeman, starts Pikeman, due in 6.
Gordium finally completes it's Temple, starts on Spearman, due in 20.

Cash rush 11 Temples in captured Egyptian territory, spend 600 gold.
Thebes still has resisters, so can't rush a temple there yet.

France is up Astronomy. We don't want to trade for it when she has a monopoly, so I'll wait.

IBT - Zulu kick my scouting Ansar out. Not only do they not have Saltpeter attached, but they don't even have any workers, so they can't hook it up. All of their defense is Impi, their offense is MI and Horsemen.
France is building Copernicus's Observatory.

9. 530AD
Memphis completes Temple, starts pikeman, due in 30.
Heliopolis completes Templs, starts pikeman, due in 30.
Madinah completes Ansar, stars Ansar, due in 3.
Elephantine completes Temple, starts pikeman, due in 30.
Alexandria completes Temple, starts pikeman, due in 30.
Giza completes Temple, starts on pikeman, due in 30.
Byblos completes Temple, starts on pikeman, due in 30.
El-Amarna completes Temple, starts on worker, due in 10.
Hieraconpolis completes Templs, starts on pikeman, due in 30.
Khurasan completes ansar, starts ansar, due in 9.
Avaris completes Temple, starts worker, due in 10.
Lisht completes Temple, starts worker, due in 10.
Buto completes Temple, starts pikeman, due in 30.

It's turn 9, so I won't declare war on the Zulus. The next player should probably do it on the inherited turn, so that he can get a full 10 turns of war in.

IBT - Resistance in Thebes finally ends.

10. 540AD
Diriyah builds ansar, starts ansar, due in 5.
Baghdad builds ansar, starts ansar, due in 4.
Pi-Ramseseseses builds Temple, starts Courthouse, due in 20.
Basra builds pikeman, starts worker, due in 4.
Snagha builds pikeman, starts Courthouse, due in 40.
Hurry Temple in Thebes.
Hurry Spearman in Edfu.

Move a few more troops up towards Zulu.

We're ready to go to war against the Zulu. We have 20 Ansars plus an Ansar army outside of Hlobane, and after taking it, we need to take Ngome, to cut off their supply of iron.
Remember when attacking Hlobane, move across the river on the northeast of it before attacking, so that you don't assault over the river.

Republic, 10.0.0. 929 gold, +232gpt.
Researching Music Theory with 1 scientist in Thebes, due in 36 turns.

France is up Astronomy, Rome and Egypt even, others are down 1-3.

Our land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-540AD_territory.jpg)
Zulu's land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-540AD_zulu.jpg)
http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/sg23/SG23_PTW-540AD_score.jpg

EDIT: The save would be nice
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD540.zip

denyd

Oct 26, 2003, 09:24 PM

Ok, I've got it. I'll be playing tomorrow night (unless I can squeeze in some hours later tonight),

Nice bit of :hammer: on Egypt JimmyDean, I'll try to do the same to the Zulu.

A couple of questions though:

1. Why are we researching Music Theory - I would think our path now would be straight to Military Tradition

2. I rarely build courthouses, why are we building them?

3. I quite often use the governor on a recently captured town until the resistance is over, is that ok with everyone?

4. Why rush the temples?

5. Should we now being upping our research $$ ?

Thanks,

Deny :beer:

LordKestrel

Oct 26, 2003, 09:53 PM

1. I went for Music Theory, as it's a nice wonder, and we can let the AI reasearch the main tech line for us.

2. I started the courthouses in a pair of cities that were 50% corrupt, but had good potential for shields down the road.

3. I've never used the governor, so I don't know what choices it makes or doesn't make.

4. The temples are to expand our border, reduce the risk of a flip, and to make the captured cities happier.

5. Your call, but I prefer having the cash around to purchase techs.

It looks like we can purchase with gpt again, but it takes a LOT of it. France wanted everything we own includiing 2 luxes and about 80gpt for Astronomy. Perhaps your gpt reputation heals over time? I'd be willing to bet that we could sign an MA again, if we included a TON of cash with it.

DaveShack

Oct 27, 2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by jimmydean
1. I went for Music Theory, as it's a nice wonder, and we can let the AI reasearch the main tech line for us.

Or we can beat it out of them... :devil2:

3. I've never used the governor, so I don't know what choices it makes or doesn't make.

It will make the requisite number of entertainers automatically when the city goes out of resistance, so no riots. If it is possible to have the governor manage happieness but nothing else, that would be the setting to use.

4. The temples are to expand our border, reduce the risk of a flip, and to make the captured cities happier.

I also like to work the population down as fast as possible by producing workers, since the flip risk is a multiple of the foreign population. Cash rushing workers in captured towns and MM to no-growth on food is the way to go. Even MM to negative food to starve them down works too.

TedJackson

Oct 27, 2003, 02:17 AM

Nice war jimmydean :goodjob:

I haven't looked at the save but a couple of general points:

1) governors on resisting towns - OK by me.

2) Research - I don't know what sort of tech pace we can manage but unless we can manage 6 turns we're probably better off not bothering :)

3) Next GL should probably be for Forbidden Palace (somewhere in Zulu territory)

Ted

denyd

Oct 27, 2003, 10:23 AM

First the SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD640.SAV)

Now what happened:

GOTM 23 Turn Log

There have been a lot of map changes since my last set of turns.

Map Examination: I looked around and found at least 10 extra future Azaps and decided to expedite this victory. New plan: Ansar Warriors will take Hlobane, Ngome, Zimbabwe, Bapedi & Intombe. The resting future Azap units will meet in Sirpleibedah and take Toledo, Madrid, Barcelona, Seville and Santiago. The soon to be completed Ansars will be sent to take the remaining two (Salamanca & Murcia) Spanish cites. That will eliminate the Spanish and leave the Zulu with four jungle bound cities. So just the relatively weak Carthage, Ottoman and the remains of the Zulu to own all but the 3 corners.

Pre-Turn: Wake up lots of units and send them to Sirpleibedah – Trade TM to all for 3g + 3TM + 1WM – Change research to Chemistry (slider to 4-6-0) – Reset game parameters

IBT: Lots of workers running around – 1 Zulu horse peeps out and ducks back into Hlobane, lots of barb galleys – Thebes completes temple, starts worker – Damascus completes Ansar Warrior, starts another – Riyadh completes Ansar Warrior, starts another, Dhahran completes Ansar Warrior, starts another – Edfu completes spearman, starts worker –

Turn 1 – 550 AD - Spearman fortify in Edfu – Azap fortify in SP – Declare war on Zulu – Ansar Warrior army defeats Veteran Pikemen (1/13) – AW defeats Vet Impi (3/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (2/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (3/5) – Ok explain this Hlobane is being defended by a GALLEY!!! – AW defeats the Warrior hiding in the galley and Hlobane is ours – we gain 2 slaves, I set governor to prevent problems (I’ll reset in turn 10), starts temple – Move new AW to Basra – Switch Damascus to starts muskets
Trade Check: Nothing new since last check

IBT – Lots of worker movement (mostly Carthage) and a couple of NM & Swords move by

Turn 2 – 560 AD – AW captures Zulu worker – AW kills Reg Impi (3/5) – AW kills Reg Impi (4/4) and Ngome is ours, starts temple – AW kills Reg Impi (3/4) – AW captures Zulu worker – Other troops continue on assigned path
Trade Check: Carthage has gained Chivalry – nothing else changed

IBT – Zulu Horse attacks AW, loses and AW promoted to elite (3/5) – Makkah completes Heroic Epic, starts musket – lots of cultural expansions – resistance in Ngome is over – Palace Expansion

Turn 3 – 570 AD – AW defeats Reg Impi (1/4) – AW defeats Reg Impi (3/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (2/4) – Elite AW loses to Reg Impi (1/3) – AW defeats Reg Impi and Zimbabwe (and the Oracle) join the empire, also add 2 more slaves, starts temple – AW loses to Vet Warrior (1/4), damn RNG – AW defeats Horseman (5/5) – AW defeats Vet Warrior and is promoted to Elite (5/5)
Trade Check: Egypt & Rome even on tech – Spain & India down Education – France up Music Theory & Astronomy – Ottoman & Carthage down Education & Gunpowder

IBT – AW defends against MI and wins (3/4) – a couple of resistors are quelled – more cultural expansion – Aden completes temple starts musket

Turn 4 – 580 AD – AW loses to Vet Knight (1/4) – AW attacks Reg Pike and retreats (1/4) – AW defeats Reg Pike and promoted to elite (3/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (3/4) – AW attacks Knight and loses (2/5) – 7-AW in place for eastern Spain / 3 Azap, w/ more coming for western Spain
Trade Check: No real changes

IBT A Zulu archer approaches – Spain moves archers to defend – more cultural expansion – France starts JS Bach’s

Turn 5 – 590 AD – AW kills Vet archer (1/4) – Elite AW loses to Vet Knight (3/5) – Knight kills Vet Knight (3/5) and Ulundi is ours, 2 more slaves, starts temple – Azap count now 7 – AW count is 9 (soon, very soon) – only Intombe (iron) and Bapedi left on the Zulu checklist (although Mpondo is building Leo’s, that would be an additional target)
Trade Check: No changes since last turn (note: I turned on the always build same flag –it’s now off)

IBT: We lost dyes supply – trade spices + gems + silks to Carthage for dyes (as a republic in a war, we need luxes) - Susa pikemen > worker (to hook up the other silks) –

Turn 6 – 600 AD – Troops position for assault on Intombe – Spanish war to begin in 2
Trade Check: No changes with all except Zulu, who’ll now talk – Intombe is available in treaty – maybe next turn after I take Intombe, peace for Bapedi will be ok.

IBT: A couple of Spanish archers move – Carthage wants to trade TM (OK) - Zulu Vet LB kills Elite AW (2/5) – Golden Age has ended – Nahjran pikemen > Musket – Edfu revolts (I forgot to check it), clown hired

Turn 7 – 610 AD – Worker wakes to move away from Spanish Sword – AW kills LB (4/5) – AW kills Reg Impi (4/5) – AW kills Reg Impi (2/5) and Intombe is ours, 3 slaves added, starts temple – 8AW +1pike+1SW for eastern Spain – 14Azap + 4pike for western Spain (next turn)
Trade check: Carthage now up Music Theory – Trade Spices to France for 7gpt

IBT: Quite a few Carthage NM moving around, also lots of Barb Galleys – Impi appears near Zimbabwe – Makkah completes Musket > Ansar Warrior – Baghdad Ansar Warrior > Musket – Basra worker > Azap – Khurasan Ansar Warrior > another – Order in Edfu

Turn 8 – 620 AD – Declare War on Spain – AW kills Reg Spearman (2/4) – AW kills Reg Spearman (2/4) – AW kills Reg Archer (4/4) and Salamanca is ours, starts temple – AW kills Reg Archer (3/4) – AW kills Impi (4/4) – AW kills Reg Impi (4/4) – AW kills Reg Impi (4/5) – AW kills Reg LB (5/5) and Bapedi is now part of our empire, starts temple – Very tempting to take Egypt and end them
Trade Check: Zulu willing to give 1 city (but not 2) – Egypt rebuffs our request for Music Theory tribute – others unchanged

IBT :Spanish Archers & Sword headed for Salamanca - Science AD Chemistry slider down to (6-4-0) – Medinah Ansar Warrior > Musket – El-Amana Worker > Worker – Avaris Worker > Worker - Lisht Worker > Worker – Palace Expansion

Turn 9 – 630 AD – Regular Azap kills Reg Spearman (1/3) – Veteran Azap kills Vet Pike (4/4) – Vet Azap kills Reg Spear (1/4) and Toledo is ours, 1 slave added, starts temple – Vet Azap kills Reg Sword (1/4) – Vet AW loses to Vet Sword (1/4) – Vet AW loses to Reg Spear (1/3) – AW kills Reg Spear (4/4) – Vet AW kills Vet Sword (3/4) and Murcia autorazes, 3 slaves – AW loses to Vet Sword (1/4) – AW attacks Vet Archer (2.4) retreats at (1/4) – AW kills Reg Archer (3/4)
Trade Check: Rome, France, has Chemistry – better make a deal for it – Trade Chemistry + WM + 90g to Egypt for Astronomy – Deals involving Astronomy for Music Theory are available (but why).

IBT:AW defends against Vet Sword (1/4) – AW losses to Reg Archer (1/3) – AW losses to Vet Impi (1/4) – lots of Carthage movement – Thebes worker > worker – Damascus Musket > Musket – Dhahran Ansar Warrior > Ansar Warrior –

Turn 10 – 640 AD – AW defeats Vet Impi (3/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (5/5) – AW defeats Reg Impi (5/5) and Mpondo is now ours, 2 slaves, starts temple – Peace with Zulu getting Swazi + 18g + 1gpt + WM – AW defeats Reg Archer (3/4)
One final trade check:
Egypt up Music Theory (6 turns left on treaty!)
Rome up Music Theory
India down Astronomy & Chemistry
Zulu down Astronomy & Chemistry
France up Music Theory & Banking
Carthage up Music Theory / down Astronomy & Chemistry
Ottoman down Education & Gunpowder
Spain not talking

We are strong military against all. I think we should send the Ansars from the west to meet the Azaps from the east to :hammer: Spain.

Well time for bed. Enjoy.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 27, 2003, 10:49 AM

Here's the minimap:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23-640AD-mini.gif

Looks as if we could win by taking Carthage, France & Spain then coming back for the remains of Egypt & Zulu.

Nice work Denyd :thumbsup:

Over to you DaveShack

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 27, 2003, 12:09 PM

Remember that Carthage and France have Musketmen/Musketeers and Knights. That negates our advantage over the Zulu and Egypt, who only had Spearmen and the occasional Pikeman.

Good work :goodjob:

denyd

Oct 27, 2003, 12:21 PM

Just reviewing the situation:

I think we should use the ground troops to take Madrid & Santiago, then head south for Theveste. Use the eastern Ansars for Hadrumentium. The western Ansars would take Barcelona & Seville, then head south Leptis Minor & Rusicade. Any new Ansars would take Sabratha & Utica. Everybody would then meet at Carthage. After Carthage falls, Ansars could pick up Oea & Leptis Magna on their way back to Egypt. Azaps would be sent to take Hippo (which would finish off Carthage). After Egypt is gone the Azaps shouldn't have much trouble with Ishlawanda and Tugela to complete the Zulu assimilation. :hammer:

The it's a choice of Ottoman, India, France and Rome. Ottoman are probably the weakest, France is the closest to our forces, India has largest chunk of land. Rome isn't an issue because of location. The Ottoman should fall quickly, so I nominate them for next, followed by the Indians. I'd rather not have to deal with the French Musketeers (GA and all). Beside Joan's a lot cuter than Ghandi :)

As for domestic issues: probably building (rushing) temples is the best. A Forbidden Palace in Zimbabwe is a good idea for the next GL.

We should be able to complete this before riflemen come on the scene, so Ansars and MP units should be all the military we need. Probably time to turn off science (using point stick only). We might want to unhook the Saltpeter, to get cheaper MP units (Pikes).

With a little RNG luck, I might not be playing again.

:beer:

BTW: Mapstat says were about 50% of the way.

DaveShack

Oct 27, 2003, 07:40 PM

Wow, we're all swinging the :hammer: pretty hard this last cycle!

OK, got it and will see if I can keep it going.

Edit: Finished off Spain prior to end of turn 6, but need to stop for the night. In the meantime any strong feelings about who is next? We still need over 800 tiles, though temple expansions will help somewhat.

TedJackson

Oct 28, 2003, 04:58 AM

Unless much has changed I think Carthage is next on the hitlist :D

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 28, 2003, 03:41 PM

Carthage has muskets and lots of hills, so you'll take lots of casualties.

denyd

Oct 28, 2003, 05:37 PM

The first move should be to pillage the saltpeter site(s), to prevent any more muskets from appearing, as for the hills, you move the Ansars to the hill, attack the city, if they win and take the city they move forward and all is well, if they they win and the city is still occupied they are left on the hill and if they lose, they don't have to worry about counterattacks. When the stack is done attacking, if the city hasn't been taken, just move the musket you brought along to garrison the city to the hill to defend the Ansars. A musket on a hill defends as a 6 - the best attacker would be a 3 (unless they've got some knight), so the musket should defend pretty well.

If the war with Spain ends quickly and the war in Carthage goes well, it might be possible to open a second front with newly produced Ansars against the Ottomans. They're not very powerful and might fall to 4/6 Ansars. :hammer:

DaveShack

Oct 29, 2003, 12:34 AM

Here is the 740AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD740.SAV)

Take a quick look around, see that all looks well.

IBT

Zimbabwe, Mpondo resistance ends. Egyptians have a galley. Spain moves a few units
out of Madrid: Longbow, settler/spear.

Turn 1, 650 AD, 282g+46gpt, Metallurgy in 17. Seems like it was 23 before, better check
if someone just researched it. Nope, maybe my recollection of the metallurgy cost was wrong...

4/4 Azap defeats 3/3 Spear, captures 2 slaves
3/3 Azap defeats 3/3 Longbow
Ansar pillages Spanish saltpeter.
Stack of ansars in far W start E.
2 ansars to Spanish Iron, pillage next turn

IBT

Spain moves a stack of units around near ?

Makkah produces Ansar, starts another.
Resistance in Ulundi has ended.
Disease in Ulundi
Diriyah produces Ansar, starts another.
Edfu completes worker, starts temple
Romans building Bach's
Romans building Copernicus
Zulu building Sistene

Turn 2, 660 AD, 321g+36gpt, Metallurgy in 16.

Madrid:
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 Longbow, 2/4
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 Musket

Seville:
5/5 Ansar loses to 3/3 Musket, 1/3 left (gambled & lost)
2nd 5/5 Ansar pillages iron and pulls back to await reinforcements
Stack of Ansars moves forward for next turn

Madrid: 4/4 Ansar defeats 4/4 spear, 2/4

IBT

Spain moving reinforcements to Madrid, but we will catch them outside town
Carthage complains about troops walking through, say we will move them
France founds a town
Rome RoP deal comes up for renegotiation. Don't want to still be locked in 20 turns from now,
so decline it. No other trades are interesting enough to bother with. They won't even take
3 luxes for one.

Bagdhad completes musket, starts ansar
Riyadh completes ansar, starts musket
Alexmanistan completes musket, starts ansar

Turn 3, 670 AD, 358g+34gpt, Metallurgy in 15.

New musket starts long trek to take up MP in conquored territory

Seville: 4/4 Ansar attacks 3/3 Musket, breaks off attack at 1/4, don't see musket's status
4/4 Ansar attacks 3/3 musket, breaks off 1/4, musket still 3/3
Another 4/4 Ansar loses to 3/3 musket (1/3)
5/5 Ansar defeats 2/3 musket
4/5 Ansar defeats 1/3 musket, Seville liberated, 1 slave worker

Madrid: 4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 spear (outside town) 2/4
3/3 Azap loses to 3/3 spear, 2/3
3/3 Azap loses to 3/3 spear, 3/4
4/4 Azap defeats 3/4 spear, 1/4 left
4/4 Azap defeats 2/3 spear, 3/4 left, Madrid liberated, 2 slave workers.
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 sword (outside town)
2/4 Ansar defeats 4/4 longbow (outside town) 1/4 left

IBT:
1/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 archer, promotes 2/5
2/5 Ansar loses to 3/3 archer

Madinah completes musket, starts ansar

Turn 4, 680 AD, 402g+40gpt, Metallurgy in 13

4/4 Ansar defeats 2/4 archer
Move units for assaults on remaining Spanish cities

Trade check: nothing much happening
reminders of deals
Peace+10gpt from Egypt - 2 turns
Peace+1gpt from Zulu - 16 turns
Dyes from Carthage for spices, silks, gems - 11 turns

IBT:
Seville resistance ends
Damascus completes musket, starts ansar
Dhahran completes ansar, starts musket

Turn 5, 690 AD, 442g+42gpt, Metallurgy in 12

santiago:
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 spear, 2/4 left
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 spear, 1/4 left

Barcelona:
5/5 Ansar breaks off attack vs 3/3 pike, 1/5 left, retreats to heal
2nd 5/5 Ansar loses to same 3/3 pike !

Hurry temple in Zimbabwe (18 turns) for 72g
Hurry ulundi temple (20 turns) for 80g
Hurry bapedi temple (23 turns) for 92g
Musket arrives in Alexandria, change production to Azap
Join a full-price worker to Dhahran
MM Seville to all scientists
MM Madrid to all scientists
Another 5/5 Ansar finally makes a dent in that pike at Barcelona, but retreats 1/5 to heal

Scientists have dropped Metallurgy to 11 turns

IBT

Order restored at Madrid, starvation
Zimbabwe finishes temple, starts azap (40)
Persepolis, Thebes riot, entertainers hired
Makkah finishes Ansar, starts another
Ulundi Temple->Azap
Susa worker->azap
Bapedi temple->azap
Najran riots, entertainer
French city of Rheims completes Sistene Chapel
Carthage building Bach's
Ottomans building Leo's

Turn 6, 700AD, 245g+43gt, Metallurgy in 12
MM Madrid, Seville to all scientists, Metallurgy in 10
Barcelona: 4/4 Azap loses to 3/3 pike, now 3/4
3/3 Azap loses to 3/4 pike, now 3/5
4/4 Azap loses to 3/5 pike, now 1/5
4/4 Azap defeats 3/3 spear
4/5 Ansar loses to 3/3 spear :(
Army kills 1/5 pike
Army kills 1/3 spear, Barcelona captured, 1 worker.

Santiago: 4/4 Azap defeats 3/3 Spear, Santiago captured, 3 slaves (1 worker, 1 settler)
Fledgling spanish are destroyed.

Stopping for the night

Continuation of turn 6

Move units toward carthaginian territory, fastest routes available.

End of turn 6, 246g+47gpt, metallurgy in 10

IBT

Cleo comes asking for peace treaty renewal. Their paltry one city does not affect our
plans for domination, and we don't have any troops close at hand. It's not a gpt deal
so won't hurt our trading rep if we break it (not that we care much) so go ahead and
extend peace.

Starvation in towns which were MM to all scientists
Resistence ends in some towns
Romans building Bach's
Indians building Leo's
Cartage building Copernicus

Turn 7, 710 AD, 283g+37gpt, Metallurgy in 11

Troops move toward next assignments
Workers work
MM to scientists, Metallurgy in 9
Cash rush a spear in Swazi (52g) to release the ansar on MP for battle.

IBT

Lots of fairly meaningless AI movement.
Baghdad completes Ansar, starts Musket
Swazi completes spear, starts another
Gordium completes spear, starts warrior
Palace expansion

Turn 8, 720 AD, 268g+36gpt, Metallurgy in 9

Workers work, move units toward next front.

IBT

Aimless AI movement
Madinah completes Ansar, starts another
El-Amarna completes worker, starts Azap
Kufah completes Ansar, starts another
Indians building Bach's

Turn 9, 730 AD, 304g+33gpt, Metallurgy in 8

Workers work, units move toward front

Check for trade info

We have 6 turns left on a lux for lux trade with Carthage

Rome is up Music Theory, and won't take 3 luxes for 1
India is up Music, down Astronomy and Chemistry
Ottomans are down Astronomy and Chemistry
France is up Music and Banking.
Zulu are down Astronomy and Chemistry
Egypt is up Music

No GPT at stake with Carthage, and we have dyes of our own :devil2:

Declare war on Carthage
Pillage saltpeter at Hadrumetum

Hadrumetum: 4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 3/4
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, no damage
4/4 Ansar defeats 4/4 archer, 3/4, Hadrumetum liberated, 2 slaves captured, temple
Advance leftover Ansars to Theveste

Pillage saltpeter at Leptis Magna
4/4 Ansar defeats loose 3/3 Merc, promoted 4/5, 2 workers captured

Leptis Minor: 5/5 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 3/5
5/5 Ansar loses to 3/3 merc 2/3 left :(
Ansar Army defeats 2/3 merc, only 1 hp left !!, Leptis Minor liberated. Produce temple

Rusicade: Capture a worker
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 3/4
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 1/4, Rusicade liberated, produce temple

Stack ansars at Theveste

Join full-price worker to Jeddah

Cadiz: 4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 1/4
4/4 Ansar retreats from 3/3 sword, 1/4 left (sword 2/3)

Switch Mpondo to spear and cash rush (44g), so France doesn't see it as an easy target.
MM Barcelona to all scientists to starve population and cut down flip risk
Hurry temple in Barcelona (108g)

IBT

Carthage archer pushes back one of our ansars, 1/4
Makkah produces ansar, starts another
Barcelona produces temple, starts musketman
Diriyah produces ansar, starts another
Damascus produces ansar, starts another
Dhahran produces musketman, starts ansar

Leptis Minor riots, MM to scientists
Mpondo completes spearman, starts temple
Resistence in Hadrumetum ends

Turn 10, 740 AD, 193g+29gpt

4/4 Ansar defeats loose 4/4 sword, 2/4, protects workers at Riyadh
4/4 Ansar breaks off attack against 3/3 merc (at Cirta), retreats to mountain
Capture worker near hippo
Full-price worker joins Diriyah
Hippo: 4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 3/4

Theveste, 4/4 Ansar retreats from 4/4 Musket, 1/4, musket is 2/4
4/4 Ansar loses to 4/4 merc, 2/4 left
3/4 Ansar retreats from 3/3 merc, 1/4 left (merc 3/3)
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 2/4 left
4/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 merc, 4/4
4/4 Ansar defeats 2/4 musket, 2/4 left
4/4 Ansar defeats 2/4 merc, 2/4 left
3/4 Ansar defeats 3/3 archer, 2/4 left, Theveste liberated, 6 resistors, temple, 5 slaves captured

End of turn 10 activity, 193g+36gpt, Metallurgy in 6

Spain eliminated
Carthage has 6 local and 2 remote cities left
our score 1270, nearest competitor is France with 734

We are still quite a ways from domination (700+ tiles remaining)
Lots of injured units

Watch out, many of Carthage's cities are on hills.

DaveShack

Oct 29, 2003, 12:44 AM

Screenshots:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_AD740-carthage2.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P_AD740-histo.jpg

TedJackson

Oct 29, 2003, 01:51 AM

Got it

I'll see if I can finish what DaveShack started :D :goodjob:

Ted

LordKestrel

Oct 29, 2003, 02:47 AM

Just a warning that I may need to be skipped when I next come up, as for the next 24-48+ hours, I'll be heavily involved at work, and won't be able to play.

TedJackson

Oct 29, 2003, 09:04 AM

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Tech Status
Rome up Music Theory
India up Music Theory, down Astronomy & Chemistry
Carthage unknown
Ottoman down Astronomy & Chemistry - phew! we need to deal with them before they get Sipahi
France up Music Theory, Banking & Metallurgy - won't trade
Zulu down Astronomy & Chemistry
Egypt up Music Theory

Pre-turn
MM Makkah to shave 1 turn off Ansar production
Swap some clowns for Scientists - Metallurgy now due in 5 turns
Hawk WM for 10gp
Research 90% (2 turns @ -147gpt, 203gp in the bank) - We might need a few Cav to finish off the Carthagians and for France :)

IBT
Ansar retreats from vet Archer
Thebes Worker - Worker
Asyut Musket - Worker (zero growth)
Khurasan Ansar - Worker (zero growth)

1 - 750AD
Research 50% (2 turns @ -37gpt, 56gp in Bank)
Ansar fort Hadrumetum (heal)
Vet Azap vs vet Longbow (S Rusicade) - victory (2/4)
Vet Azap vs reg Merc (2SE Rusicade) - dies red-lining Merc
Elite Ansar vs reg Merc(1/3, 2SE Rusicade) - victory & GL (Mu'awiya)
Victorius unit renamed "Ted's Ansar to a Prayer" :D
Looking at the map I think our Mu'awiya would be best utilised building the Forbidden Palace in Zimbabwe. The difficulty is getting him there :)
Our forces at Leptis Magna withdraw to the hill SSE
Ansars at Cadiz withdraw to Buto to heal, Musket takes station on Gold mountain
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (W Cirta) - victory
Hawk WM for 8gp

IBT
Ansar retreats from Longbow ()
Jeddah Musket - Worker (zero growth)

2 - 760AD
Research 40% (1 turn @ +30gpt, 27gp in Bank)
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (Cirta) - victory (1/4)
Hawk WM for 5gp

IBT
Vet Ansar (3/4) kills attacking Longbow
Discover Metallurgy - Military Tradition
Makkah Ansar - Ansar
Resistance in Theveste ends
Baghdad Musket - Ansar
Khurasan Worker - Cannon
Edfu riots ???

3 - 770AD
2 Vet Ansars advance to Gold mountain NW of Cadiz
Troops manouevre for assault on Carthage
Hawk WM for 4gp
France doesn't have Military Tradition yet - phew

IBT
Madinah Ansar - Ansar
Jeddah Worker - Cannon
Fustat Spear - Lib

4 - 780AD
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (Cirta) - dies red-lining Merc
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (Cirta) - victory (3/4)
Vet Musket vs reg Merc (1/3, Cirta) - victory
Cirta is destroyed (autorazed)
Vet Ansar vs reg Sword (Cadiz) - victory (2/4)
Vet Ansar vs reg Archer (Cadiz) - victory & promotion
Cadiz is ours - Temple
Zimbabwe switches to Forbidden Palace - Mu'awiya hurries :)
With Cirta & Cadiz gone Carthage is down to six cities. I'm in position to assault Carthage, Hippo and Sabratha in another two turns.
The Forbidden Palace should help with the Economy & Research.
Hawk WM for 10gp
Theveste hurries Temple for 76gp

IBT
Ansar kills attacking Longbow
Ansar kills attacking Longbow
Lose 2 Workers to camouflaged Sword :o
Zimbabwe Forbidden Palace - Ansar
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-780AD-FP.jpg
Damascus Ansar - Ansar
Theveste Temple - Worker (get the pop down)
Dhahran Ansar - Ansar
Alexmanistan Ansar - Market
Asyut Worker - Cannon

5 - 790AD
Elite Ansar vs reg Sword - dies red-lining Sword
Vet Musket vs reg Sword (1/3) - victory
Elite Ansar vs vet Longbow (N Hlobane) - victory (3/5)
Troops Arrive at Carthage & pillage Saltpetre
Research 50% (MT in 8 turns @ +1gpt, 55gp in the Bank)
Lux 10%
Najran switches to Worker (pop control)
Hawk WM
Rome has Navigation but won't sell

IBT
Makkah Ansar - Ansar
Diriyah Ansar - Ansar
Hlobane Temple - Worker (pop control)
Najran Worker - Worker (pop control)

6 - 800AD
Assault on Carthage:
Army vs reg Musket - dies & Musket promotes (2/4) :(
Vet Ansar vs vet Merc - dies red-lining Merc
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - dies red-lining Merc
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - retreats
Elite Ansar vs vet Musket (2/4) - retreats
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket (2/4) - victory (2/4)
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (2/3) - victory (2/4)
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (1/3) - victory (2/4)
Vet Ansar vs vet Merc (1/4) - victory
Carthage is ours (Utica is the new Carthagian capital)
Assault on Sabratha:
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - victory & promotion
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - victory
Sabratha is ours
I leave Hippo as we're not quite ready. Carthage now only 4 cities.
Only four turns left on Zulu Peace.

IBT
Rome demands Spices - I give in as I don't want a war on two fronts when all our units are in the West
Theveste Worker - Worker
Ngome Temple - Harbour
France starts Magellan's

7 - 810AD
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - dies & Merc promotes
Vet Ansar vs Vet Merc - dies & Merc promotes (3/5)
Vet Ansar vs elite Merc (3/5) - victory & promotion (3/5) - we capture 2 slaves
Assault on Hippo:
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - dies red-lining Merc
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (1/3) - victory
Hippo is ours
Research 50% (9 turns @ +41gpt, 7gp in the Bank)
Hawk WM

IBT
Ulundi Azap - Worker (improvements)
Hlobane Worker - Musket
Baghdad Ansar - Ansar
Riyadh Musket - Worker (zero growth)
Gordium Warrior - Worker (corrupt)

8 - 820AD
Elite Ansar vs reg Longbow - victory (3/5)
recapture our 'bait' Workers
We now have 7 vet Ansars NW of Utica (not quite enough but I can't find any more until next turn)
Research 50% (5 turns @ -31gpt, 54gp in the Bank)

IBT
Game hung twice on AI moves but 3rd time went through OK
Makkah Ansar - Ansar
Madinah Ansar - Ansar
Rome starts Magellan's

9 - 830AD
Assault on Utica:
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket - victory (2/4)
Vet Ansar vs reg Musket - dies witout landing a blow, Musket promotes
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket - retreats inflicting 1hp damage
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket (3/4) - retreats without landing a blow
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket (3/4) - dies red-lining Musket
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - victory
Vet Ansar vs vet Musket (1/4) - dies, Musket promotes (2/5)
Elite Ansar vs elite Musket (2/5) - victory
Utica is ours (Leptis Magna is the new capital)
Hawk WM
France has Military Tradition but won't sell
Carthage is in Anarchy (was Monarchy)

IBT
Persepolis Settler - Worker
Resistance in Utica ends
Damascus Ansar - Ansar
Theveste Worker - Musket
Riyadh Worker - Musket
Dhahran Ansar - Ansar
Resistance in Hippo ends
Avignon (France) completes Leonardo's
Ottoman start Bach's

10 - 840AD
Research 40% (4 turns @ +41gpt, 18gp in the Bank)
Assault on Oea:
Elite Ansar vs reg Musket - retreats inflicting 1hp damage
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - retreats inflicting 1hp damage
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc - retreats inflicting 1hp damage
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (2/3) - victory
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (2/3) - victory & promotion
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (2/3) - retreats
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (2/3) - dies red-lining Merc
Vet Ansar vs reg Merc (1/3) - victory
Oea is ours
Elite Ansar vs vet Longbow - victory (4/5)

Tech Status
Rome up Music Theory & Navigation
India up Music Theory - down Astronomy & Chemistry
France up Music Theory, Banking, Navigation & Military Tradition
Zulu down Astronomy & Chemistry
Egypt up Music Theory & Navigation - down Metallurgy
Ottoman up Music Theory - down Metallurgy

Minimap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-840AD-minimap.gif

Notes
I got a GL & built the Forbidden Palace in Zimbabwe - there's a Cathedral due in 2 turns as we're a bit close to the new Zulu capital.
Only Leptis Magna is left of Carthage - 7 or 8 Ansars should do the job.
Peace with Zulu expires next turn - might as well finish them off
Military Tradition due in 4 (at the moment) - we could probably shave a turn off this if you do as I did and research at a deficit until we can't afford it than back off for 1 turn.
After Mil Trad I suggest we just turn off research altogether. If there's a tech we want then extort it from France.
There's a Settler North of Snagha (from Perspolis) to fill a gap somewhere and there are a couple more in production.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD840.zip)

Ted

TedJackson

Oct 29, 2003, 09:07 AM

Just noticed that jimmydean has posted a skip notice. Which means - unless you guys want to wait....

Come on down denyd, you're up :)

Ted

denyd

Oct 29, 2003, 03:10 PM

Ok, I’ve got it. Thanks to a nice :hammer: job on Spain by Dave and nice bit of :hammer: on Carthage by Ted, most of the non-France west is ours. I’ll try to play tonight.

I’ll move some Ansars to complete the Carthage removal and get them in place to finish off the Zulu and Egypt (when the treaty’s over). I’m not sure how many Azap/Swords are left, but I’ll send them to prepare to assault Sogut. As soon as Military Tradition is available, I’ll shutdown research and concentrate on upgrading all non-elite Ansars to cavalry. My plan is to have two cavalry groups begin the assault on the Ottomans by taking Uskudar [Army A] and Antalya [Army B] (no more saltpeter). It looks like the Ottoman have no iron, so except for existing Pike, Musket & Knights, it should be Longbows, Spears and Horsemen. I’ll move the ground units [Army C] via the Ottoman road system to Sogut, while letting Army A go for Iznik & Izmit and Army B go for Istanbul. The Armies will unite for Aydin and Bursa completing the Ottoman conquest.

I’ll probably need a couple of settlers to fill in some of the open space. Once the Zulu, & Carthage are gone and resistance is over, I’ll start those conquered cities to building workers. We’ve got a lot of jungle to chop away to make a quality second core. If I get a Great Leader during these battles, is there a good choice for his use? Bach’s & Copernicus are the only available wonders currently and I don’t think a cavalry army is that potent.

I’ll check back later.

:beer:

DaveShack

Oct 30, 2003, 12:50 AM

I'm not so sure producing workers is a good idea. We need at least 100 more in population to meet the domination limit. Transferring existing workers to the Zimbabwe area may be enough, since the 1st core is pretty much fully improved.

After upgrading Ansars to Cavalry, future gold can go into rushes for aqueducts to allow population to grow, and for culture buildings to fill in gaps. Also consider using settlers to fill in gaps instead of cultural expansion, except around the FP. A priority is the space between Mpondo and Leptis Minor, before France gets to it.

I'm pretty sure we will have to take out the Ottomans and at least one of Rome or India to get enough tiles to win.

TedJackson

Oct 30, 2003, 01:58 AM

Carthage only has one city left. The Zulu only have two cites and our Ansars will be right on their doorstep after Utica is taken. Egypt is a short (2 turns) stroll on from there.

The question (for me) is can we or should we attack France? The benefits are she's close, is the tech leader and has some nice Wonders to add to our collection (Pyramids, Leonardo's). Her Satpetre sources are also within easy pillaging reach to stop her building (more) Cav & Musketeers. Might be easier than we earlier thought.

Edit: I didn't make my point very cleary. France is on the verge of entering the Industrial Age (and do we really want Rifles on the board? I think not), has Pyramids which would help our pop growth and Leonardo's which would halve the cost of upgrading our Ansars.

These factors make France a more important target than the Ottoman Empire in my opinion.

Producing Workers in cities that have reached their pop limit (for whatevever reason) is a good idea. We can always join them back into other towns.

Ted

denyd

Oct 30, 2003, 11:54 AM

I got detoured by RL last night, but should be able to play tonight.

My thought was instead of starving down a city, convert those ex-resistors into workers, chop the jungle and irrigate the grasslands. Once the jungle is gone, add those workers back to the cities to increase our population. I’ll get a couple of growth-blocked cities to produce some settlers to fill in the NE & SW gaps.

As for the next target, I agree with Ted about not wanting to face riflemen. I just checked and France has got 2 sources of Saltpeter (Chartres & Lyons), we would not be able to eliminate any new Musketeers until quite late in the war. Unless Otto is trading for SP, they don’t have any and would make easy Elite Ansar/Cavalry food. Rome’s has a single SP source next to Rome, so they would also have muskets. After the 3 AI remnants are gone and we will probably need the Ottoman’s plus at least 1 other to complete the domination. My choice would be Rome, since the troops are already nearby. If riflemen show up during that war, their quantity would be limited and our superior cavalry numbers should prevail. My only concern would be either India or France jumping in on Rome’s side. Hopefully, we won’t have to attack France or India to win, but if we do the western Indian cities should fall pretty easily and that should be enough land to secure a domination victory.

I don’t think the 'if' in victory is in doubt any longer, now it’s just the 'when'.

Edit: Ted, after reading your post, while I agree France has some very tempting targets, I think Rome would be an easier opponent, with about the same amount of land.

denyd

Oct 31, 2003, 10:13 AM

I'm in the middle of turn # 4, I've reached a decision point and feel the team should make these decisions.

1. I've got a GL (Hind) in Makkah.

Should I wait to attack Egypt, who should be a pushover, with Elite AW until Hind has been used?

Should I use Hind to build the Military Academy and then go after Egypt?

Should I save Hind for A) Newton B) Smith's C) Shakespeare ?

My vote is build the MA and go after Egypt looking for more GL.

2. Most of the AI are getting close to MT (or they have it), so I'm planning on starting a war with Ottomans using about 30 Cavalry in about 3 turns. I don't want to have Sippah on the board and don't expect the war to last very long (they've got 8 cities on flat terrain). After the Ottoman are decimated. The choice is then
A) Rome B) India C) France)?

Rome is close to where the troops are, has Copernicus & Hanging Gardens and doesn't have, but I just made a 20-turn trade with.

India is not a close as Rome to our troops, has Bach and has no current trades, but does have Elephants (possible GA)

France is the farthest and most advanced. Not to rifles yet. Has excellent wonders (Leo, Pyramids), might kick off their GA.

My vote is Rome, in spite of needing to break a deal. Both other potentials might get a GA during a war and that's tough to win against, also they are the closest.

EDIT: One more quick one, is trading metallurgy to India for banking a bad idea?

Here's my turn log for the first 4 turns:

First we reset our preferences and then have a look around. Wake up all extra MP units and move them to desired locations.

Turn 0 – Vet AW kills Vet LB (3/4)
Trade Check:
Zulu giving 1gpt for 1 more turn
Egypt peace for 6 more turns
Trade Wool to France for 12gpt – Trade Dyes to France for 11gpt – Trade Spices to France for 15gpt – Trade Gems to France for 16gpt

IBT: Zulu come calling asking to extend peace – not really ready for war, but don’t want to delay this for 20 more turns, so decline and War with Zulu is on – Egypt asks for Metallurgy for Music Theory, trade TM’s instead – Ulundi riots – Neapolis (Rome) completes Copernicus Observatory – Delhi (India) builds JS Bach’s Cathedral – Thebes builds worker, starts another

Turn 1 – 850 AD – Settler & Pike sent to A-town – Vet AW loses to Reg Musket (3/3) – Vet AW loses to Reg Musket (2/4) – Vet AW loses to Vet NM (1/4) – Vet AW (1/4) retreats from Vet NM (2/4) – Elite AW kills Vet Musket and GL Hind is born, unit renamed Ted’s Vengeance – Vet AW kills Vet NM (3/4) – Ted’s Ansar to a Prayer kills final NM (4/5) and Leptis Magna is ours, starts temple – Carthage is gone – Other AW & Azap are move to attack Zulu lands
Trade Check:
India a possible Metallurgy for Banking & Music Theory is declined
Egypt has nothing we need
Zulu won’t talk
Rome trade silks to Rome for 8gpt
Shift slider to MT in 2

IBT: Vet LB (2/4) attacks Vet AW retreats (1/4) – Vet LB (3/4) kills Vet Azap – France, Ottoman and Roman settlers change course for home – Makkah builds AW starts another – Dinyah builds AW starts musket – Alexandria builds Azap starts AW – Baghdad builds AW starts another – Khurasan builds cannon, starts musket – Aden builds musket starts cannon –

Turn 2 – 860 AD – Cannon sent to Dharhan – Vet AW defeats Vet Impi (1/4) – Vet AW defeats Reg Impi (4/4) and Isandhlwana is ours (capital now Tugela) – Vet AW loses to Vet Impi (1/4) – Vet AW kills Vet LB (3/4) – Elite AW kills Vet Impi (5/5)
Trade Check:
Zulu: Won’t talk – last turn on planet
Egypt: Next on list, nothing to trade for
Rome: Trade Wool for 9gpt – Trade Dyes for 4gpt
India: Same deals as last turn
Ottoman: Only Chemistry for Music Theory available and I’m not interested
France: no changes

IBT: Lots of settler movement by France, Rome and Zulu – Research Military Tradition start for Banking at minimum – Edfu builds temple starts walls – Lyons (France) builds Magellan’s Voyage

Turn 3 – 870 AD – Vet AW (1/4) retreats from Vet Pike (4/4) – Vet AW (3/4) kills Vet Pike – Vet AW loses to Reg Impi (3/4) – Vet AW (2/4) kills Vet Impi – Vet AW (2/4) kills Vet LB and Tugela is ours along with 1 slave – Zulu’s have a settler somewhere keeping them alive – Upgrade 6 AW to Cavalry (all were vets except Ted’s Ansar to a Prayer)
Trade Check:
Zulu – won’t talk
Egypt – 3 turns left
Ottoman, France & India – same as before

IBT: Zulu settler builds Umtata – Vet LB (1/4) defeats Vet AW – Zimbabwe builds Cathedral starts Musket – Utica builds temple starts Musket – Ulundi builds settler starts Cavalry – Elephantine builds Musket starts cannon – Hlobane builds settler starts musket – Jeddah builds cannon starts another – PiRamesses builds courthouse starts cannon – Basra builds Azap starts cannon

Turn 4 – 880 AD – Vet Cavalry kills Vet LB (2/4) – Vet Cav kills Vet Impi (4/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Impi (3/4) and Umtata is destroyed and the Zulu are gone – 6 more AW upgraded to Cavalry (total 12, 19 to go)

Time to stop (played 2 1/2 hours) and get advice.

Let me know in the next 12 hours what you think. Without response, I'll go with my preferences.

:beer:

TedJackson

Oct 31, 2003, 10:21 AM

Yeah, build the MA & fish for more leaders :)

Ted
p.s. good work on the Zulu

LordKestrel

Oct 31, 2003, 12:06 PM

Why the MA? At 400 shields a pop, it'll take us forever to build an army. I'd say either build an army of cavs, or save the leader until we can get economics/theory of gravity.

DaveShack

Oct 31, 2003, 05:21 PM

I'd say the MA or the army, just because it can be done immediately. The only other immediate choice which would make sense is to reposition the palace if there is a fully developed and better production alternative. We probably can't use the FP Rank bug because I think it is fixed in 1.27, not to mention I'd prefer not to exploit anyway, so don't move palace unless the new location has an actual advantage.

Every turn a leader hangs around is one we can't get another. Don't remember if MA has any other benefit than the "allowed to build an army" one. Do we need anything else that costs a lot of shields? Or it might be better to just build a Cav army in case someone has a particularily strong defender.

Rome probably is the weakest of the big 3, but may not have used their GA, don't remember if they ever warred with the Ottomans while Legions were available. That's one disadvantage of not going ahead and triggering all the ancient ones when the chance presents itself...

denyd

Oct 31, 2003, 05:54 PM

OK, all parties heard from.

It's build the MA, then shop for more leaders. If one comes quickly (Egypt or early in Ottoman war), then build Cav Army. If late in the Ottoman war save for Smith's or Newton's.

After Egypy is gone, upgrade all Ansars (except Elites) to Cav and set to conquer Ottoman. Have troops end conquest in position to attack Rome.

Trade Metallurgy for Banking and research Physics (for Newton's).

I'll post the save late tonight (early tomorrow) for DaveShack to take over.

:beer:

PS: I hoping all of you will be able to join for the next SG. The Oda sound like a fun game to play.

TedJackson

Oct 31, 2003, 06:11 PM

Have at 'em denyd,

don't forget the Settlers to fill in gaps :)

Ted

denyd

Nov 01, 2003, 01:30 AM

First the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD940.SAV)

Turn 4 – 880 AD – Vet Cavalry kills Vet LB (2/4) – Vet Cav kills Vet Impi (4/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Impi (3/4) and Umtata is destroyed and the Zulu are gone – 6 more AW upgraded to Cavalry (total 12, 19 to go)
Trade Check:
Trade Metallurgy to India for Music Theory + Banking + WM + 46g + 1gpt
Trade Banking to Egypt for Navigation + 48g + WM
Trade TM with France & Rome & Ottoman

IBT: A bunch of Roman & French troops run nowhere – lots of barb galleys sail by – Madinah builds Cavalry, starts Military Academy – Palace Expansion

Turn 5 – 890 AD – Hind moves to Madinah and hurries Military Academy – Switch Riydah to settler – Now up to 21 Cavalry
Trade check: Egypt – there last turn - Swap WM to all for 4WM + 2TM + 19g

IBT: French Settler / Warrior! Moving in the east – barb galleys move – Makkah build cavalry starts another – Military Academy in Madinah starts cavalry – Leptis Magna builds temple starts musket – Dhahran builds cavalry starts another – Najran builds worker starts Azap – Sabratha builds temple starts musket – Rusicade builds temple starts cavalry – Palace Expansion – France starts Smith’s Trading Post

Turn 6 – 900 AD – Declare War on Egypt – Elite AW defeats Vet Spear (1/5) – Elite AW losses to Reg Spear (1/3) – Elite Ansar defeats Reg Spear and GL Ziyad Ibn Abihi is born, Elite renamed to Ansar the Question – Abydos is captured and Egypt is gone – Hurry temple (48g) in Swazi – 30 cavalry + 3 Elite AW heading for Ottoman land
Trade Check: France has a monopoly on Economics – swap WM for 2g + 2WM

IBT: Damascus builds cavalry starts another – Isandhlwana builds temple starts musket – Baghdad builds cavalry starts musket – Riyadh builds settler starts musket – Leptis Minor builds temple starts musket – Swazi builds temple starts worker –

Turn 7 – 910 AD - Switch Byblos to settler – Hurry temple in Mpondo (52g) – Hurry temple in Seville (32g) – Hurry temple in Madrid (32g) – Hurry temple in Toledo (8g) – hurry temple in Oea (32g) – Hurry temple in Hippo (76g) – switch Zimbabwe to settler – shuffled troops on MP duty to get Azaps to front line
Trade check: India now has Economics – could trade MT for Econ (not yet)

IBT: French settler/warrior pair now in our territory (might try ROP) – Madrid builds temple starts cannon – Carthage builds temple starts musket – Zimbabwe builds Settler starts musket – Dinyah builds musket starts another – Seville builds temple starts cannon – Hippo builds temple starts cannon – Mpondo builds temple starts horseman – Byblos builds settler starts cannon – Toledo builds temple starts cannon – Gordium builds worker starts cannon – Oea builds temple starts musket – Salamanca builds temple starts cannon

Turn 8 – 920 AD – 28 cavalry are in place for attack to begin next turn – Hurry Tugela temple (58g)
Trade check: Not much has changed

IBT: French settler moving N past Baghdad – Kufah builds cavalry starts another – Tugela builds temple starts cannon – Anjar builds musket starts cannon

Turn 9 – 930 AD – Declare war on Ottomans – Ted’s Ansar to a Prayer kills Vet Spear (2/4) – Vet Cavalry kills Reg spear (3/5) and is promoted, Antalya captured – Vet Cavalry kills Reg Spear (1/4) and captures Istanbul starts temple – Settler founds Yamama – Settler builds Muscat – Shift slider to 3-7-0 - Physics in 5 – Troops in place for Uskador & Aydin
Trade Check: Nothing really to trade for

IBT: A couple of Ottoman archers come out to place (with a spear escort) – the French settler turns south – Persepolis build worker starts cannon – Makkah builds cavalry starts another – Edfu riots hire clown

Turn 10 – 940 AD – 2 cannon fire on Urskador (1 hit on spear – 1 miss) – Vet Cav kills Reg spear (3/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Spear (4/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Spear and is promoted (5/5) and Uskudar is now ours – Vet Cav kills Reg Spear (2/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Archer (3/4) – Vet Cav kills Reg Archer (3/4) – Settler builds Mansura – Vet Cav kills Reg Spear (3/4) – Vet Cav retreats (1/4) to Reg Spear (1/3) – Vet Cav kills Reg Spear and is promoted to Elite (5./5) – Vet Cav defeats Vet LB (2/4) and Aydin is ours – Vet Cav kills Reg Archer (4/4)
Trade Check:
Rome up Physics / Printing Press / Economics (looks like a Physics for PP trade with France)
France up Physics / Printing Press / Economics
India up Economics – down Military Tradition – Next player might want to deal and use GL for Smith’s

I’ve got 11 Cav ready to take Sogut and 6 for Bursa – that should be enough for knights & spears – the taking of Izmit and Iznit shouldn’t be much tougher :hammer: – There are over 30 Vet Cav in or on the way to Ottoman, that should be able to romp through Rome :hammer: – You’ll probably want to redirect some of the inbound Cav (and maybe the elite AW) to the 4 Roman cities N of Ottoman land. I’ve got 3 settlers with go to orders to spots I’ve picked, you might want to re-direct them. I’ve emptied out the MP from some SW cities and have got muskets underway to replace them. Make sure you get some defense down there in case of AI invasion. We still need 464 tiles and 100 pop for domination. That probably means Rome and a little India. There is a GL S of Asyut for your usage, I’m thinking Smith’s or Newton’s.

Good luck and I’ll check back tomorrow morning (I’ve got to work Saturday morning babysitting file maintenance at the office)

:beer:

Edit: oops I just noticed the save is not zipped - hope that works - let me know if I need to re-upload

TedJackson

Nov 01, 2003, 04:02 AM

Good progress denyd :thumbsup:

The remains of the Ottomans should fall in 2-3 turns but we'll need to be careful with the Roman cities just East of the mountains.

I think we may need to build a few more Cannon before we tackle them.

On the trading front it might be worth holding off until we have Physics. Use our GL for an army in the meantime. That way we might generate another in the not too distant future :)

DaveShack is up

Ted

denyd

Nov 01, 2003, 05:11 PM

Just a couple of quick thoughts, in case DaveShack hasn't started yet.

We might consider taking going after the western Indian cities and follow that up with the NE Roman cities. Those are all smaller cities and probably will be defended by lesser troops.

We could probably get Chitagong, Bengal, Punjab and Bangalore (maybe even Karachi & Lahore) before the Indians could mobilize. By then we might be able to get peace and a little tribute.

Then turn the troops south and take Brundisism, Syracuse, Byzantium and Luticia with our mobile troops while using the foot troops to defend in the mountains above Virconium, Cumae and Luigdurum.

Those acquisitions plus the the cultural expansions in the east and the Ottoman land might be enough for the victory.

On another topic, besides building an army with the current GL we could save him for Newton's or Smith's. We have a trade to get Econ available now (but it's with India) and were getting close to having Physics, that's the prerequisite for TOG & Newton.

DaveShack

Nov 02, 2003, 12:49 AM

Got it :)

Thanks for some great ideas, I'll see in the next hour or two how it goes... :hammer:

DaveShack

Nov 02, 2003, 05:00 AM

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD1040.SAV)

Summary: Finished off the Ottomans and got started on Rome.
Used existing GL for Smiths, and new GL for Newtons.

940AD, 335g-16gpt, 3.7.0, Physics in 3

Pre-turn, nothing obvious needing adjustment
Tiles remaining: 464. Some cultural expansion coming in the next 2 turns will recalc later.

IBT

Ottoman knight dies redlining a cav
Thebes finishes worker, starts another
Madinah finishes cav, starts another
Baghdad finishes musket, starts cav
Khurasan finishes musket, starts aqueduct (need population)
Rome building Smith's
Indians building Smiths

Turn 1, 950AD, 319g-21gpt, 3.7.0, Physics in 1

France has physics, economics, printing press
India has economics, lacks MT
Rome has physics, economics, printing press

Changed Sabratha from musket to settler, there is a nearby hole to fill

Bursa, 4/4 Cav vs. 3/3 spear, wins 1/4 left, Bursa liberated, galley destroyed, start temple

Changed Utica to courthouse, it has 66% corruption on 25 shields, so will show benefit

Worker work, units positioned.

Sogut: 3/4 cav vs 3/3 pike, loses, pike now 2/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins 4/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins 3/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins 4/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins promoted 3/5
4/4 cav vs 2/4 pike, wins 4/4, Sogut liberated, we now control great wall
Sogut producing temple, 3 workers captured.

IBT
Physics learned, start ToG
Ulundi completes musket, starts another.
Lots culture expansions.

Turn 2, 960 AD, 299g-19gpt, Theory of Gravity in 6
Adjust science to 60%, +35gpt, ToG in 7. Don't want to hurry into industrial anyway

Trade India Physics for Economics, 14g, WM. Want to build Smiths (keep it from AI's, mostly)
Screwed up the rush, moved the leader to a low-production town so production gets minimal
disruption, but used up all his movement. Will have to rush it next turn... :(

Izmit: 4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket, wins 1/4
3/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, loses 2/3 left
5/5 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins 5/5
4/4 cav vs 2/3 spear, wins 1/4, Izmit liberated, produce temple

Iznik: 4/4 cav vs 4/4 spear, retreats 1/4

Built Bukhara on desert to fill in space, producing temple
Built Aleppo in far West to fill in space, producing temple

Iznik: 3/4 cav vs 4/4 spear, loses, spear promoted 5/5
4/4 cav vs 5/5 spear, wins with 4/4 left
3/4 cav vs 3/3 spear, wins 3/4
4/4 cav takes out last Ottoman spear, Iznik captured, producing temple.

Start to position units to take on Rome. It looks like just conquoring Rome and expansion
will be enough.

IBT

Dhahran completes cavalry, starts settler
Sabratha completes settler, starts musket

Turn 3, 970 AD, 353g+39gpt, 4.6.0, ToG in 6.

Rush Smiths in Aden
Move units to future Roman front

IBT

Zimbabwe completes musket, starts cavalry
Makkah complets cavalry, starts another
Diriyah completes musket, starts cavalry
Elephantine completes worker, starts caravel
Damascus completes cav, starts another
Leptis magna completes musket, starts cav
Intombe completes musket, starts cav
Alexmanistan completes market, starts cav
Smiths completed in Aden, starts cav

Turn 4, 980 AD, 393g+51gpt, ToG in 5

Change Memphis to Aqueduct, need population
Move units toward Roman front

IBT

Utica courthouse completes, corruption down to 50% (keeping 13 shields now vs. 8 before)
Now producing cav
Thevest completes musket, starts settler.
Isandhlwana completes musket, starts cav
Asyut completes musket, starts cannon

Turn 5, 990 AD, 444g+51gpt

Fez built on hills in the near west, filling in, producing cannon

IBT

Santiago completes temple, starts cannon
Madinah completes cav, starts another
Hlobane completes musket, starts cav
Bagdhad completes cav, starts another
Jeddah completes musket, starts cav
Dhahran completes settler, starts musket

Turn 6, 1000AD, 436g+41gpt (spent some somewhere, don't know where...)

Shiraz built on lakefront near Sogut, building temple.
Trade check, only difference on tech is that soem have Printing Press

IBT

Uskudar completes temple, starts musket
Antioch completes musket, starts caravel
Swazi completes worker, starts another

Turn 7, 1010AD,

Think I saw a Roman ship off the far western coast

Change Abydos to musket & rush (196g)
Lower science to 50% +76gpt, ToG still in 2

IBT
Rome complains about our troops in their territory -- must have expanded?
Makkah completes cav, starts another
Abydos completes musket, starts temple

Turn 8, 1020AD, 357g+74gpt, ToG in 1

Adjust science to 40%, +172gpt

Declare war on Rome, all units in place for multi-prong attack.

Byzantium, 4/4 cav vs 3/3 pike wins 2/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear wins 2/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins 3/4, Byzantium liberated, producing temple.
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer outside town wins 3/4
4/4 azap vs loose 3/3 archer wins 4/4

Jerusalem, 5/5 ansar vs 3/3 spear wins, Jerusalem destroyed, 1 worker captured

Luticia (all of following outside town)
4/4 cav vs 3/3 spear loses, 2/3 left
4/4 cav vs 2/3 spear wins 3/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins 3/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins 2/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins, promoted 3/5
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer loses, 1/3 left
4/4 ansar the question (cav) vs 1/3 archer wins

Vicinity of Iznik (outside town)
Cannon vs 4/4 MI, hit 3/4
cannon vs 3/4 MI, hit 2/4
5/5 ansar vs 2/4 MI, loss, 1/4 left
5/5 ansar vs 1/4 MI, wins, GL created, renamed unit "Dave's Lucky Shot"
Leader Saffah enroute to Makkah to build Newtons there (must be high science city)
Captured 2 workers
4/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins

Vicinity of Izmit (outside town)
4/4 Ted's answer vs 4/4 MI wins 3/4, now sitting on iron source
2 more workers captured

Change Makkah to settler (zero growth)
Change Madinah to settler (zero growth)

IBT

Rome moves a bunch of units, we take a couple of zone of control shots but no action
Theory of Gravity is learned, starting magnetism
Ulundi completes musket, starts cav
Madinah completes settler, starts musket
Hadrumetum completes temple, starts cannon

Turn 9, 1030 AD, 512g = 151gpt, Magnetism in 11

Check trade, neither India or France has ToG or Navigation, so no imminent danger of industrial

Lugdunum, 4/4 cav vs 4/4 cav wins 2/4
5/5 cav vs 3/3 spear wins 4/5

Ted's answer to a prayer pillages iron

3/4 cav vs loose 3/4 archer wins 2/4
4/4 ansar the question vs 4/4 musket wins, 1/4
4/4 cav vs 3/3 musket wins 1/4
4/4 cav vs 4/4 cav wins 2/4, lutetia liberated, 2 workers captured, produce temple

Vicinity of Izmit, cannon vs 4/4 MI, miss
cannon2 hit, 3/4
5/5 cav vs 3/4 Med Inf wins, 2/5

Viroconium 4/4 cav loses to 4/4 musket, 1/4 left
Ted's vengence loses to 4/4 musket, untouched
4/4 cav retreats from 5/5 musket after doing 3hp damage
4/4 cav retreats from 3/3 musket, no blows land
4/4 cav loses to 3/3 musket, 2/3 left

Loose 3/5 cav defeats 3/3 archer
3/4 cav defeats 3/3 spear
5/5 ansar defeats 4/4 longbow, 3/5 left
4/4 cav defeats 3/3 spear, 3/4 left
4/4 cav defeats 4/4 archer, 3/4 left
4/4 cav defeats 3/3 archer

Viroconium
5/5 cav retreats from 3/5 musket, 1/5 remains
5/5 cav retreats from 2/3 musket, 1/5

IBT
1 cav falls to a med inf.
Makkah finishes settler, starts Newtons
Heliopolis finishes musket, starts cav

Turn 10, 1040 AD, 668g+155gpt, Magnetism in 10

Rush Izmit temple (92g)
Rush Iznik temple (88g)
Rush Aydin temple (80g)

Lutetia 3/4 cav vs loose 3/3 spear wins 1/4
Build Merw on ruins of Jerusalem, produce temple
4/4 Azap vs 2/3 archer wins 3/4
3/4 cav vs 2/3 archer wins 1/4
3/4 cav vs 3/3 archer wins 2/4
4/5 Dave's Lucky Shot vs 3/4 med inf wins 2/5

Newtons hurried in Makkah by GL

Many injured cav healing

It's late, some pictures are captured but not uploaded.

TedJackson

Nov 02, 2003, 09:59 AM

Got it

I'll have a look in about 5 hrs

Ted

TedJackson

Nov 03, 2003, 08:48 AM

Pre-flight checks... OK

Pre-turn
I think our war with Rome is about over.
We can't hope to take any of their core cities without Cannon to reduce the pop. I'll tackle Syracuse & Brundisium then turn our attention to India.

Press button
Renew Wool to France for 23gpt
Rome razes Edfu (Northern Island)
Zimbabwe Cav - Cav
Thebes Worker - Cannon
Makkah Newton's - Cav
Inzik Temple - Musket
Diriyah Cav - Cav
Damascus Cav - Cav
Izmit Temple - Musket
Theveste Settler - Cannon
Baghdad Cav - Cav
Aydin Temple - Musket
Dhahran Musket - Cav
Swazi Worker - Cannon
Mansura Temple - Musket
The people love me - add some nice Sphinx

1 - 1050AD
Assault on Syracuse:
Vet Cav vs vet Musket - dies inflicting 1hp
Vet Cav vs vet Musket 3/4) - dies & Musket promotes
Elite Cav vs elite Musket (4/5) - victory (3/5)
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Syracuse is ours
Assault on Brundisium:
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Brundisium is ours
Kill a couple of stray Roman units
Withdraw our troops from Roman core
Build Embassy in Paris
There are still 3 turns left on some deal with India
Hurry a couple of Temples
Sell RoP to France for 11gpt

IBT
Renew Dyes to France for 23gpt
Sogut Temple - Musket
Utica Cav - Cav
Bapedi Musket - Musket
Istanbul Temple - Musket
Cadiz Temple - Musket

2 - 1060AD
Advance troops toward India
Pick off stray Roman Pike
Hurry a couple of Temples
Sell Peace Treaty to Rome for 14gp + 17gpt
Research 70% (Magnetism in 4 turns @ +7gpt)

IBT
Renew Spices to France for 25gpt
Madinah Musket - Cav
Leptis Magna Cav - Cav
Kufah Cav - Musket
Yamama Temple - Lib
Shiraz Temple - Musket

3 - 1070AD
Manouevre troops
Buy Worker from France for 100gp
Hawk WM
1 turn left on deal with India

IBT
Renew Gems to France for 25gpt
Isandhlwana Cav - Lib
Pi-Rameses Musket - Lib
Ngome Harbour - Musket
Rusicade Musket - Lib
The people love me - add Dome

4 - 1080AD
Balkh founded - Lib
Troops mass at Yamama
Hawk WM

IBT
We enter the Industrial Age
Discover Magnetism - Steam
Carthage Musket - Lib
Makkah Cav - Cav
Leptis Minor Musket - Lib
Tugela Cannon - Cannon
Asyut Cannon - Musket
The people love me - add big Dome

5 - 1090AD
Declare war on India
Assault on Bengal:
Elite Cav vs reg Musket - dies red-lining Musket who promotes :(
Elite Cav vs elite Spear - victory
Elite Cav vs vet Musket (2/4) - victory
Bengal is ours
Switch Zimbabwe to Market
Mansura hurries Granary
Research lone Scientist (Izmit) 40 turns @ +426gpt
Hawk WM

IBT
Susa Cannon - Lib
Baghdad Cav - Musket
Alexmanistan Cav - Lib
Abydos Temple - Harbour
Khurasan Aqueduct - Market
Mansura Granary - Market

6 - 1100AD
Elite Cav vs reg Elephant - victory
Vet Cav vs vet Warrior - victory
Vet Cav vs reg MDI - victory
Assault on Punjab:
Vet Cav vs reg Musket - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Punjab is ours
Move troops to mountain SE of Bangalore
Hawk WM

IBT
Kill 2 Cav & 1 Warrior for the loss of 1 Cav
Utica Market - Lib
Ulundi Cav - Market
Uskudar Musket - Court
Lutetia Temple - Musket
Riyadh Musket - Aqueduct
Oea Musket - Market
Resistance in Punjab ends - riots ensue
Fez Cannon - Granary

7 - 1110AD
Elite Cav vs reg MDI - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Cav - victory & promotion (4/5)
Assault on Bangalore:
Vet Cav vs reg Musket - victory & promotion (4/5)
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory & promotion (3/5)
Bangalore is ours
Vet Cav vs reg Warrior - victory
Hurry 4 Temples (East Coast)
Troops advance on Delhi

IBT
Kill an attacking Cav
Diriyah Cav - Lib
Damascus Cav - Cav
Dhahran Cav - Cav
Bangalore quells 5 resisters and riots
Sirplebidah Lib - Aqueduct
Byzantium Temple - Lib
Brundisium Temple - Lib
Bengal Temple - Lib
Syracuse Temple - Lib

8 - 1120AD
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory & promotion
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - retreat
Vet Cav vs reg Spear (2/3) - victory
Delhi is ours with J S Bach's
Elite Cav vs reg Archer - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Archer - victory
Troops advance on Karachi

IBT
Makkah Cav - Cav
Madinah Cav - Cav
Giza Musket - Lib
El-Amama Cannon - Harbour
Hieraconpolis Musket - Harbour
Buto Musket - Aqueduct
Punjab Temple - Lib

9 - 1130AD
Assault on Karachi:
Elite Cav vs reg Musket - retreats without landing a blow
Elite Cav vs reg Musket - victory (1/5)
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - retreats without landing a blow
Vet Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Vet Cav vs reg Archer - Victory
Karachi is ours
Elite Cav vs reg Archer - victory & GL (Uthman)
Uthman builds Army
Vet Cav vs reg Archer - victory
Assault on Chittagong:
Elite Cav vs reg Musket - victory
Elite Cav vs reg Cav - victory (3/5)
Elite Cav vs reg Spear - victory
Chittagong is ours
Hurry Temple in Bangalore

IBT
Zimbabwe Market - Cav
Hlobane Cav - Market
Theveste Court - Granary
Bangalore Temple - Lib
Aden Court - Aqueduct

10 - 1140AD
Vet Cav vs reg Cav (1/3) - victory & promotion
Hurry Temple in Delhi

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-AD1140.zip)

Notes & screenshot to follow. We only need 58 tiles & 5 pop to win :)

Ted

TedJackson

Nov 03, 2003, 09:11 AM

India
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-114AD-India.jpg

1600*1200 > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23P-114AD-India-1600.jpg)

Notes
We are 58 tiles and 5 pop away from victory :D
There is a settler in place between Delhi & Punjab and another 2W of Bengal who need to move 1 tile North.
Most of our forces are tied up in garrison duties as Bombay (pop10) is the new Indian Capital.
I suggest that the next player attacks Calcutta next (Wines) and then heads South for Hyderabad & Dacca if needed.

Over to you jimmydean. It looks as if you'll take the checkered flag :)

Ted

LordKestrel

Nov 03, 2003, 10:58 AM

I'll get it tonight.

denyd

Nov 03, 2003, 11:52 AM

Middle Ages Recap – Succession GOTM 23

Science:
Trade with Zulu (150 BC) for Feudalism
Trade with Ottoman (110 AD) for Monotheism
Chivalry (300 AD)
Trade with Spain (170 AD) for Engineering
Trade with India (500 AD) for Invention
Trade with Egypt (500 AD) for Gunpowder
Chemistry (620 AD)
Metallurgy (760 AD)
Military Tradition (860 AD)
Trade with France (500 AD) for Theology
Trade with Egypt (500 AD) for Education
Trade with Egypt (620 AD) for Astronomy
Physics (950 AD)
Theory of Gravity (1020 AD)
Magnetism (1080 AD)
Trade with India (880 AD) for Banking
Printing Press
Trade with India (880 AD) for Music Theory
Democracy
Free Artistry
Trade with India (950 AD) for Economics
Trade with Egypt (880 AD) for Navigation

City History:
Mekkah (3950 BC)
Medinah (2510 BC)
Diriyah (2150 BC)
Damascus (1910 BC)
Baghdad (1625 BC)
Ridyah (1450 BC)
Jeddah (1425 BC)
Dhahran (1275 BC)
Najran (875 BC)
Kufah (850 BC)
Alexmanistan (470 BC)
Snaga (330 BC)
Anjar (90 BC)
Fustat (110 AD)
Aden (260 AD)
Yamana (930 AD)
Muscat (930 AD)
Mansura (940 AD)
Bukhara (960 AD)
Aleppo (960 AD)
Fez (990 AD)
Merw (1040 AD)
Balkh (1080 AD)

Military Conquests:
Pasargdae auto-razed in 450 BC
Persepolis captured in 390 BC
Bactra auto-razed in 370 BC
Tarsus razed in 310 BC
Susa captured in 270 BC
Arbela razed in 230 BC
Antioch acquired in Peace Treaty of 230 BC
Konya auto-razed in 90 AD
Gordium captured in 190 AD
Lisht captured in 400 AD
Buto captured in 400 AD
Asyut captured in 410 AD
Byblos captured in 410 AD
Hieraconpolis captured in 420 AD
Giza captured in 450 AD
Memphis captured in 460 AD
Thebes captured in 470 AD
Elephantine captured in 470 AD
El-Amarna captured in 470 AD
El-Amarna culture flips to Egypt in 490 AD
Heliopolis captured in 490 AD
Alexandria captured in 490 AD
El-Amarna captured in 500 AD
Edfu acquired in Peace Treaty of 500 AD
Hlobane captured in 550 AD
Ngome captured in 560 AD
Zimbabwe captured in 570 AD
Ulundi captured in 590 AD
Intombe captured in 610 AD
Salamanca captured in 620 AD
Bapedi captured in 620 AD
Toledo captured in 630 AD
Murcia auto razed in 630 AD
Mpondo captured in 640 AD
Swazi acquired in Peace Treaty of 640 AD
Seville captured in 670 AD
Madrid captured in 670 AD
Barcelona captured in 700 AD
Santiago captured in 700 AD
Hadrumetum captured in 730 AD
Leptis Minor captured in 730 AD
Rusicade captured in 730 AD
Theveste captured in 740 AD
Cirta auto razed in 780 AD
Cadiz captured in 780 AD
Carthage captured in 800 AD
Sabratha captured in 800 AD
Hippo captured in 810 AD
Utica captured in 830 AD
Oea captured in 840 AD
Leptis Magna captured in 850 AD
Ishandlawanda captured in 860 AD
Tugela captured in 870 AD
Umtata auto razed in 880 AD
Abydos captured in 900 AD
Antayla captured in 930 AD
Istanbul captured in 930 AD
Urskador captured in 940 AD
Aydin captured in 940 AD
Bursa captured in 950 AD
Sogut captured in 950 AD
Izmit captured in 960 AD
Iznik captured in 960 AD
Byzantium captured in 1020 AD
Jerusalem auto razed in 1020 AD
Lutetia captured in 1030 AD
Edfu razed by Rome in 1040 AD
Syracuse captured in 1050 AD
Brundisium captured in 1050 AD

Contacts:
Persia in 3450 BC embassy in 1000 BC destroyed 190 AD
Egypt in 3400 BC destroyed in 900 AD
Ottoman in 3050 BC embassy in 670 BC destroyed 960 AD
Zulu in 2900 BC destroyed in 880 AD
Carthage in 2750 BC embassy 430 BC destroyed 850 AD
France in 2750 BC
India in 2430 BC
Spain in 2030 BC destroyed in 700 AD
Rome in 1450 BC – embassy in 430 BC

Wonder building:
Forbidden Palace – Zimbabwe
Heroic Epic – Makkah
Military Academy - Medinah
Oracle – Zimbabwe
Hanging Gardens – Rome - Pompeii
Pyramids – France - Paris
Great Library – Rome - Rome
Great Lighthouse – Memphis
Colossus – Thebes
Great Wall – Sogut
Sun Tzu’s – Thebes
Leonardo’s Workshop – France - Avignon
Bach’s Cathedral – India - Delhi
Sistine Chapel - France
Magellan’s Voyage – France - Lyons
Copernicus Observatory – Rome - Neapolis
Newton’s University - Makkah
Smith’s Trading Post - Aden
Shakespeare’s Theatre

I'll post some notes & observations later.