It is time to open the player speculation thread for Gotm25-Mongols and see what your best guesses will be as to how this game will take shape.

The playable civ is the Mongols and the game will use the Gotm24-Korea setup as a base with and an add-on game pack.

This game represents our final game where a PTW introduced civilization will be added to the game play in both CIv3v1.29 and PTW. One of the reasons that the Mongols were scheduled last is because the PTW implementation of the Keshik UU was so unusual and could not be replicated in the Civ3v1.29 game. Whether or not the PTW implementation of the Keshik was right, wrong, or indifferent was not a real consideration since our only choice was to provide some sort of implementation for a unique unit set that would give the Civ3v1.29 Mongols a truly unique and exciting opportunity to be an enjoyable game.

Players who chose to play this Gotm25-Mongols game in the PTW versions of the game will have the opportunity to play the game with the Asian Civ Game pack from Gotm24 and the Keshik unique unit OR they will have the choice of playing the game with a PTW implementation of exactly the same civspecific unit characteristics that will be played by the Civ3v1.29 players. Civ3v1.29 players will not have to make this choice since the Keshik has been denied to them.

The game will again be one of the most spectacular and unique game experiences you may have played in Civ3. It will give every player the opportunity to experience new and exciting challenges that you may never have experienced in any previous game.

Players who have not played Gotm24-Korea due to any number of personal choices and schedule issues, should download and install the appropriate Gotm24 game pack and use that game as load test and practice game to get ready for Gotm25-Mongols.

It should also be lots of fun for experienced players and new players alike!!

What do you think you will see in terms of map characteristics and civ opponents for this game?

What do you think the unique unit characteristics and abilities will be for the non-Keshik versions of the game?

What events and experiences do you hope to see recreated or extrapolated in this timeline version of the world as it would evolve centered around the Mongols?

For the benefit of players who may have bypassed the Civfanatics Frontpgae news announcement, here is an internal reprint of the first lead-in announcement preparing for the unveiling of Gotm25-Mongols:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/2003images/october2003_preview1.jpg

The Wind is a Messenger ??

Storm clouds on the horizon and the distant rumble of thunder disturb the simple peasants as they work in their fields. Uneasy omens send the faint of heart scurrying for the percieved safety of nearby villages.

The weather has changed and the normally cold monsoon winds have shifted to carry an unusual warmth tinged with the lurid smells of conflict, conquest, and thousands of miles of upturned earth mixed with with the blood, sweat, and offal of both man and beast.

No one sleeps easy tonight as some are gripped by fear while others quiver with an anticipation of the chance for glory. The future may hold challenges and threats of unmentionable ferocity that are beyond the imagination of the mere commoners.

A few brave souls begin to sharpen their swords and prepare for the challenges that must be faced.

Will you be among the conquered or will you find the skills and inner strength to rise above the challenges that will soon be revealed??

Mongolia is one my favourite civs in the multiplayer.

I'd like to know what will be the victory target for Medal 6-3. I'm expecting Conquest. Actually I hope conquest. :devil2:

I'm expecting huge pangea with lots of civs. China and Persia nearby starting location. Level Emperor or Demi-God, perhaps Deity. Warmonger's dream.

Since Civ3 vanilla players will get a UU without mountain crossing bonus, I believe mountanious terrain won't be a issue.

Might possibly see a recreation of the mongol hordes ravaging Europe. So perhaps far end of pangea/other island with France, Germany and England/Spain...

Given the history of the mongols a conquest goal would be fitting...

I expect a starting position with important ressources (horses, iron) and some bonus land tiles in the neighbourhood and a nearby starting position of the Han dynasty so that there will be a very early clash between them...

I speculate we'll see...
A small archipelago map with only a few peaceful, loving opponents, with difficulty level exceeding Warlord :eek: (on predator class, conquest class is chieftain level with the extra bonuses :crazyeye: ).
A few lost barbarians may be sighted but they will flee or commit :suicide: when approached. Unit promotion is difficult because opponents evacuate their units from threatened cities (except settlers and workers). Player starting position is surrounded with goody huts on luxury tiles while AI's positions are ringed with volcanoes.

NOT. :rotfl:

I expect a sadistic deity level melee where only the most savage conquerors survive. peaceful builders like myself will be exterminated in the ancient age.

I see an endless steppe with rich and advanced civilizations on the edges, for us to conquer and pillage.
No barbarians, as *we* are the barbs in this world and everyone will fear us.

The UU might be a mounted archer? No mountaneering, but bombard (à la Peltast)? Only Cracker knows, only time will tell.

I can't wait for the new month! (Also because I'm taking my holidays... :D ).

...and it's going to be vicious!

I agree with the Pangea map type, but at least one civ (Japan) will be on an island or small continent, after all the mongols built great fleets to try and invade! Fairly arid, so food bonuses might be sparce, except in the "civilized" lands we will be conquering!

I have been thinking about the UU, it seems the closest way to approximate the Keshik's special ability would be the treat all terrain as roads attribute, with still a move of two. That is very powerful, though, making it very hard to defend against. Otherwise, a move of 3, like the Riders, might be feasible. Add on a Blitz ability and it could be terrifying also!

Originally posted by chk
I expect a starting position with important ressources (horses, iron) and some bonus land tiles in the neighbourhood and a nearby starting position of the Han dynasty so that there will be a very early clash between them...

Keshicks, at least the PTW version, don't need iron.

I'm expecting a starting position of mostly plains (steppe) on a large Pangea map.

I'm guessing these historical opponents: Japan, China, India, Persia, Arabia, Ottomans, and Russia. And maybe a European opponent or two at one end of the map opposite Japan.

I think the Mongol UU should be available with chivalry and be a mounted 4-3-3 with bombard ability. Or better. What other military unit more dominated its timeframe. Should be the best UU in the game IMO.

Originally posted by ltcoljt
I think the Mongol UU should be available with chivalry and be a mounted 4-3-3 with bombard ability. Or better. What other military unit more dominated its timeframe. Should be the best UU in the game IMO.

Though the Mongol soldiers were very good (note to Europe: horse archers can turn knights into pincushions, i.e. the Battle of Liegnitz), it was their generals that were superb. Subotai and Chepe Noyon (the arrow) were the best. Chepe Noyon destroyed the Kingdom of Kiev with a single tumen (about 10,000 men) out on a raid. Subotai directed the Mongol army at Liegnitz. They also drafted Chinese engineers to do their engineering and direct sieges for them, like they did at Baghdad.

I think there will be a large central expanse of plains / grasslands / desert, with varied terrain around the edges, and perhaps in smaller patches within the whole. I would expect the Russians (or a single similar scientific "civilization") and Persians, maybe the Indians.

Given the way that GOTM24 was handled, I'd expect other tribes of horsefolk, similar to the Mongols, but without the Keshik. I don't think that it would carry much further than that. Cracker et al did a remarkable job with GOTM24 by including the "minor" civs in the area of Korea. I would expect that a similar remarkable job will be done with GOTM25. Example: Huns, Avars, etc. Not exactly, because they were not included in the list of opponents for GOTM24, but similar. Perhaps Sythians? Cracker made reference to the 24 setup, so I expect the special civs to carry the same names.

I might be interesting to see a map that had land as a full X-wrap of the map. Minimal water, perhaps in the form of large lakes so as to allow a few rivers.

I agree with RowAnd Live. Cracker will try to duplicate the ancient tribes around Mongolia, Siberia, India, and China. He is building up for the finale. All these tribes from the Korean gotm and this one will resurface in the Asian Melee at the end of the year. We will probably face 31 other civs in that one.

Knowing nothing of Mongol History, I found this cronology of Mongolia (http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc3.htm). (I often wonder if Cracker's intent is to make us learn some history.)

The oldest "validated" text regarding the rise of the mongols begins:
The Secret History of the Mongols
There came into the world a blue-gray wolf
whose destiny was Heaven’s will.
His wife was a fallow deer.
They travelled across the inland sea
and when they were camped near the source of the Onon River
in sight of Mount Burkhan Khaldun
their first son was born, named Batachikan.

I suspect we will start on the edge of a great tundra forest filled with game to offset the lack of food. The start will be on a river, near the delta to a large lake (Bajkal Sea). This lake and a large plain will separate us from the Han Dynasty (China), Korea and their tribes. Some new tribes will start in the plains with no fresh water to improve their lands, keeping them small and conquerable by our troops. Mountains will separate us and one or two other tribes from the rest of the map. Russia past that will be centrally located on this Panagea map. Persia will be there too. If any of the European races are there I suspect Germany to be on the far side of the continent.

Based on past map making tricks, I suspect we will start on the lower left of the map and the map will be a south pole map (or really, a north pole map, rotated 180degrees).

If not for the Persia Medal Game, I would have said 100K victory is the target. With that being the last game, I am thinking domination or conquest, probably conquest.

Re: the Asian Meleé:

Come to think of it, I don't remember Cracker ever telling us the answer to the question he posed during the Mediterranean Meleé - why was it called a Meleé?

Come on, Cracker, while we are waiting for QSC results, at least give us a crumb - who got it right, if anyone?

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I agree with RowAnd Live. Cracker will try to duplicate the ancient tribes around Mongolia, Siberia, India, and China. He is building up for the finale. All these tribes from the Korean gotm and this one will resurface in the Asian Melee at the end of the year. We will probably face 31 other civs in that one.

I really doubt this is the case. Temujin united the Mongols fairly quickly. All of the Mongol neighbors were nation-states, not tribes.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
We will probably face 31 other civs in that one.

Would be a long game.

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Some new tribes will start in the plains with no fresh water to improve their lands, keeping them small and conquerable by our troops.

That I agree with.

Russia past that will be centrally located on this Panagea map. Persia will be there too. If any of the European races are there I suspect Germany to be on the far side of the continent.

That I do not agree with. I really expect the scientific / more advanced civs to be on the fringes / far end in order to give them a chance to develop, and thus be the later game challenge. Given the Keshik's advantages, one of very few possible counters will be technology - the Aztec's just wouldn't cut it... THe Persians, given their UU may be a mid-map nation, but I still suspect not. Also, I again expect only a single Scientific opponent civ so as to mitigate the PTW tech race issue. Perhaps Perisa will lose scientific in favor of expansionist? Russia, with the Cossack, wouldbe the most logical mid-to-late game strong opponent, even if it didn't work that way historically.

Based on past map making tricks, I suspect we will start on the lower left of the map and the map will be a south pole map (or really, a north pole map, rotated 180degrees).

I'll joint this bandwagon too. We could use a southern hemisphere-oriented. Although I still prefer the all land idea!

Originally posted by RowAndLive
That I do not agree with. I really expect the scientific / more advanced civs to be on the fringes / far end in order to give them a chance to develop, and thus be the later game challenge. Given the Keshik's advantages, one of very few possible counters will be technology - the Aztec's just wouldn't cut it... THe Persians, given their UU may be a mid-map nation, but I still suspect not. Also, I again expect only a single Scientific opponent civ so as to mitigate the PTW tech race issue. Perhaps Perisa will lose scientific in favor of expansionist? Russia, with the Cossack, wouldbe the most logical mid-to-late game strong opponent, even if it didn't work that way historically.
I wasn't thinking about how to manipulate the game mechanics to aid/combat the Mongol strengths. Rather, I was referring to Russian territory historically was considered the Golden Horde. Golden (as the link I reference says) was the color of the center of the mongols. Hence I thought Russia would be placed at the center of the map.
It is noteworthy that it was Russia that was the part of the Mongol Empire that survived longest. Subsequently the Russian land would be called "The Golden Horde." What does that mean? What most people do not know is that it were the Russians themselves who gave their part of the Empire this name. It has been assumed that the designation "Golden Horde" is derived from the golden color of the Mongol Khan's tent. This is mistaken, but needs a little explanation. We can start by asking why the Khan's tent was golden. The reason for this stems from age-old Inner Asian (and Chinese) symbolism. According to this symbolism, the color of Black designates North, Blue indicates East, Red is the color of South, and White is the color symbolizing West. The middle, or central area is represented by the Golden or yellow color. Traditionally, all Mongols of the line of Chingis Khan were said to be members of the Golden Family. The reason for this is that Golden, the color of the middle, is also the color of the political concept of Central Authority, hence all partakers of this Chingisid authority are by definition members of the Golden Family. The meaning of the Golden Horde is then the "horde (= political-social unit) in the middle." The correctness of this interpretation is demonstrated by the fact that the Mongol peoples in Russia called the Russian tsar "the White Tsar," which of course means "The Tsar (Ruler) of the West." (the white area) When the Russians called themselves the Golden Horde it therefore proved that the Russians at one stage considered themselves not only part of the Mongol Empire, but also that they regarded the Russian part of that empire the primary, central (Golden) area.

I'm hoping that GOTM 25 will have one new feature:

Available a few days early so that I can finish it before Conquests is out!

Really, though, it shouldn't be a problem--I got so into GOTM 24, I finished it in just a couple of days anyway.

Control Freak:

Thanks for the symbolism reference! That is interesting stuff. I now also understand where you were coming from.

RowandLive@ turn on your PM or email! I want to talk to you about the great state of New York (Cornell Grad, looking to get back there.)

You're welcome for the quote.

I hate the idea of all land tiles; too much fodder for the warmonger, early-domination experts.:hammer:

Animal husbandry is crucial to the nomadic Mongol life. Key resources will be the takhi horses (integral to the nomad life and needed to make airag), wool (to make felt for our tents), goats (Mongolia now produces 20% of the world’s cashmere), cattle, sheep, and lambs. There should be game and fish, though the Mongols prefer red meat to fish. The Mongols have also long cultivated wheat.

Mongolia is a high (1500 m above sea level) plateau of steppes (plains) lying between the Gobi Desert and tundra. There are many mountains and the Taiga forest should be near. There are 4,000 lakes and 3,000 rivers. Russia and China should be on opposite sides of us.

[Edit] Now what would really be nice is to have Tuvan Throat Singing in the tech tree. [dance]

I predict the victory condition will be domination or maybe conquest. It’s time for me to learn the art of war! :slay:

I actually dreamed two nights ago that a mongol horde rode past my house.... :D

Anyway, I think the new GOTM game will be a big feast 'o slash 'n dash...

The mongols in the middle, with civilizations like China, Germany, Russia and Korea all around it, ready to take their share... But that aint gonna happen! ;)

More details of my twisted fantasy I do not wish to share!

Two words: Panda resource!

Russia and China(Han) will be the main enemies in at least one age. Since the Civ3 Chinese Rider is essentially the Mongolian UU, it might be an option to just take him from Han and give him to us. Whatever the UU will be, it should be fast, cheap, and available early without the need of iron.

Expansion could be forced by the complete absence of both fresh water and grasslands in Mongolia. This would require 2-3 super-resources in our capital radius (e.g. Mongolian Horses, on plains: +3f/+2s/+1c), to enable a bearable settler and military production rate...could be an interesting challenge indeed, although difficulty then might better be set to Monarch or below. Also different corruption rules would be cool - either lower it significantly for one or all government types, or introduce a medieval Communism. (Better yet: make corruption rate proportional to the city's population - but I doubt that this is possible via txt editing:().

The other civs (apart from Russia & China) depend on the scope of the map - I think nearly everything is possible here.

Option (a): Small to medium, pangea, no ocean at all, map borders are Ural, Himalaya, extensive tundras and in the east the deltas of Yangtse et al.. No other "great" civs, early wars take place between Mongolian tribes. VC: Conquest.

Option (b): Same as (a) but with the addition of quite large southern territories plus the Indian Ocean, so that both India and Babylon/Persia play a major role during most of the game (and not only as luxury provider). Korea might also be granted a smaller part in the NE. Map size: Medium to large. VC: Domination.

Option (c): The next enhancement would be either Japan or (and?) better Europe. Europe would be the perfect candidate for the highly advanced but not too powerful bunch of nations, provided the Ural and perhaps a (more or less fictitiuos) wide desert can seperate them from Asia long enough...(I wonder if it will be possible thus to create a situation where the hordes of medieval riders prevail against rifleman and conquer Europe :mad:...) Egypt might play a smaller role SW in this setup. Map size: Large (perhaps the tech costs need to be raised). VC: Domination.

Option (d): Guess what? Yep, the world - or a least the complete northern hemisphere. Map size had to be huge, and even Domination might be too tedious. Probably not the best setup, since both tech speed and corruption would soon enter ridiculous dimensions. (Nonetheless this could be one of the more interesting World Games...)

As non-industrious nation, we should have a couple of free slaves in an arid wide country. Perhaps we have to chase those workers ourselves and whack that vulcano?

I'm not sure if cracker want another Asian-dilemma before the hugely awaited Asian thingie.....

This will be with different nations around, but I could believe the idea about plains that someone said. Probaly far to lux'es and resources, so we HAVE to expand. Cruel for us builders!

The more I read my post the more I believe it...and the more I "hate" you, cracker!

Dam!

What will be the required victory condition this time? Not Space Race I guess.

A few months ago, I saw a show on the mongols, and they would use there dead plague infested bodies to catapult over a cities walls. I don't remember the city, but do ya think we will have this ability?

And yes, I do realize this is pretty gotesque.

Mongols catapulting dead people over city walls isn't anything new...

All during medieval times, including post and past, the marching armies would gather up dead animals and bodies, to later be stuffed onto catapults, which thrusted the bodies over city wallls. Now, the infested bodies would spread their diseases all over the city, taking casualities among the population, both physically and morally..

Grotesque, yes, but highly effective! :devil2:

Originally posted by OneFastWarrior
A few months ago, I saw a show on the mongols, and they would use there dead plague infested bodies to catapult over a cities walls. I don't remember the city, but do ya think we will have this ability?

And yes, I do realize this is pretty gotesque.

It was probably in one of their invasions of europe in the 14th century that spread the bubuonic plague.

Originally posted by OneFastWarrior
A few months ago, I saw a show on the mongols, and they would use there dead plague infested bodies to catapult over a cities walls. I don't remember the city, but do ya think we will have this ability?
Certainly. All workers in gotm25 will have the :nuke: ability. You just have to walk with them right into an enemy city, and the population, defenders, territory and your rep will be dead next turn. :goodjob:

And to make things even more enteresting, all workers will get a 10% chance of going off at random each turn. This is the unique part of the whole Mongol business. :D

Somewhat more subtly, they also threw infested bodies into a river upstream from a fortified town under siege (I think this was against the Turks somewhere), poisoning the water, but not quite as obvious.

Not wanted to be crackered, I have a questions before I post my questions. Is this a thread we can discuss how to best play the Mongols? I have been trying them out recently and would like to dicsuss my experiences and see if I can gain any insights in how to best use their abilities.

Serttech,

You may want to wait for the Pregame discussion to open so you can share your pearls of wisdom (if that is what they will be0.

Remember, that if you wish to play this game in PTW at either of the higher two difficulty classes you will have your choice of playing the game with the standard PTW Mongol Keshik or you can play with the same Mongol game definition as the Civ3v1.29 players. This is not meant to be a complex or confusing decision it just represents that fact that we had to build a game specific to the Civ3v1.29 versions of the software and it only seem fair to give the PTW players the choice to play this game setup or the game setup that was sold to you in the expansion pack.

Also, Serttech, you may want to look at a few more past game examples so you can see that we have had "Speculation" threads to let you guess what you think the game will be like and they we progress to the "Pre-game Discussion" threads when the starting position and game announcement is released to the public. Debating all 73 gazillion permutations of potential Mongol strategy may not be too focused until you know what the game will be.

thats why I asked first. Don't confuse my eagerness to learn with an eagerness to share. I know nothing about using the Mongols, at least nothing that anyone would want to know. I will humbly submit to the game master and wait like a good Mongol warrior.

Originally posted by serttech2003
Not wanted to be crackered,

A NEW VERB!!

crack.er ('kra-k&r) (v) crackered, crackering, crackers
Date: 21st Century
Origin: CivFanatics forums

(v.tr.)
1. To be chastized by cracker for not following Game of the Month forum rules.

(inf) to cracker,

I'd hate to get OT, but I'm new to GOTM and I'm just wondering exactly where I download these GOTMs?

look at gotm.civfanatics.net - that has everything you need.

As for predictions? Conquest victory for Medal Play. There will also be mincemeat neigbours that will be easily over-run, but the further you get from the homeland, the harder the enemies get.

Hmm, I can assume that the information page, with our nice little start location picture, is coming some time soon? Not to hurry anybody, but I'm just REALLY EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (ok, I broke the exclaimation mark limit :naughty: ).

Cracker! You're sending us crazy with anticipation. Put us out of our misery!

Gingerbread Man,

You forgot to ask if it's Mongolian Beef yet!

You can put , like the UU of the mongols, the Nomad Rider (replaces the knight or rider, you prefer)

I like very much the Mongols, Huns, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Manchu, Hindus and Khmer. (If I had an error, sorry my english, I'm in fourth grade of an english course)

In my country we said to the japanese Ponjas, because is Japón (japan in spanish) spelled backwards.