[THIS POST WILL BE EDITED A FEW TIMES. CHECK IT BACK AFTER A WHILE.]
[2003/11/26 : THIS POST WON'T BE EDITED ANYMORE.]

Hello civfanatics ! :) This is a new month beginning, that will see the release of a new expansion pack for our beloved game.

So my next SG will probably (what ? "surely" is the word !) use Conquests. Before anyone steal my idea (what a brillant one), I want to let you know that I want to play as Sumer for my 1st game. So this game will feature Sumer as our civ, and the level will be Deity only, so as to play a relax game for discovering purpose. :cool: Maybe I'm too confident here...

Before anyone gets impatient (you are, of course), I also want to note that I won't be able to get a copy of C3C before November 14th, given my location. And BTW, I hope it will allow me to play whatever game without any kind of bugs or incompatibility issues (see current sig). Folks who design the game have been unable to answer my questions about that so far !!! But in a way or in another way, I'll eventually get this expansion pack.

Previous games :
KRYS01 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56467) (domination victory in 1490AD)
KRYS02 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64323) (conquest victory in 1755AD)

Here are the settings of the game :

World Size = Standard
Land Mass and Water Coverage = Continents with 70% water
Climate / Temperature / Age = Normal / Temperate / 4 Billion
Barbarians = Roaming
Civ = Sumerians
Number of Opponents = 6 (all the standard new C3C civs)
Available Victories = All except Wonder Victory
Difficulty = Deity
AI agression : Normal
Culturally linked start locations : No
Respawn AI players : No
Preserve random seed : Yes
Allow cultural conversions : Yes

We will try to use no exploit at all and play accordingly to the Epics spirit (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html). But we won't stop or reload the game if we found out that someone used an exploit (deliberately or not).
I want to point out that many bugs/cheats/exploits will probably be fixed with C3C, so this will surely be less of an issue ; but still, please follow such rules.
Also, because this is a succession game, try to follow these rules :
- don't set up governors in our cities ;
- don't set up automated workers ;
- don't set up auto-goto units.

We will all play 20 turns in the 1st round, and 10 turns from then. You have 24 hours to post your saved game OR to post a "got it" message. If you post a "got it", then you are granted a total 72 hours to post your saved game, so that we can have the time to talk about the new stuff.

Don't hesitate to post questions, suggestions, strategy thinkings, before or after your turn ! Don't hesitate to play as you want to (if you think the previous player has messed a little, for example), and don't be afraid to take some risk, as long as we agree on a general strategy. We'll learn things that way. I'll try to post comments after each turn, so we can discuss what to do next every 10 turns (20 in the beginning) ; I encourage everyone to participate in the debate !

Remember : we're here to learn and enjoy playing Civ3 !!!

If you want to participate, please tell your preference in the roster (I'll be 1st anyway).

The roster :
kryszcztov
Greebley
Kuningas
Teknoice
amirsan

I knew someone would be taking my idea...

At least mine was the first :D

This isn't a sign up but ill be lurking in this one.

@vbraun
But my SG was (probably) 1st for C3C

I'm not joining but I'm lurking both games:D

@Ville
Ok maybe you beat me to it. But mine features all the new things in Conquets. (all the new civs...)

BTW, I had the idea (about a week before) i just didn't want to post to soon.

Originally posted by vbraun
@Ville
Ok maybe you beat me to it. But mine features all the new things in Conquets. (all the new civs...)

BTW, I had the idea (about a week before) i just didn't want to post to soon.
I believe this idea was taken a year ago with PTW, using a new Civ against the rest of the new Civs. I hope you are posting in jest here since there are likely hundreds of us who "thought up" this idea.

Not a sign up, just a note.

(Thought I'd already have some players signing up...)

@ vbraun : I saw your game, and it gave me the idea to quickly set up my game too, because like you said, another folk could have the same idea as you. But my idea wasn't to set up a C3C game (everyone has thought of that, of course), my idea was to set up a game with the Sumerians. :p I have wanted to play with them since years ago, and now that they come in, I won't ignore them. BTW, my idea was posted several days ago at RBCiv, before I saw your "Maya Melee". :rolleyes: And my game is on Deity... Wanna go for a ride ? :cool:

@ Speaker : Too bad a RBCiv player like you doesn't want to join, but oh well.

Anyone welcome, be you from RBCiv or not ! Just accept those rules (designed so as there is more fun and fair play) and you're aboard ! :)

Originally posted by kryszcztov
@ Speaker : Too bad a RBCiv player like you doesn't want to join, but oh well.
Sorry Kryszcztov, but I have already joined Arathorn's "Exploring Sid" game and I'm not sure at this point I have time for much more than one SG. I would also like to explore some of the new traits and Civs by myself, to see if Sid is all that it's cracked up to be. I've gotten a little bored with straight up Deity to tell you the truth.

BUMP ! :D

So, now that a lot of people can get their copy of C3C, I'm awaiting confirmed signups for this game. If any North American player wants to play in a C3C game after having tested the game a bit, you're welcome, because this game won't start before the November 15th/16th weekend. Note that this will be played with the Epics rules, and that it will be a Deity game with Sumer as our civ. :) If you want to be amongst the first to beat Deity in the C3C final version, come aboard !!! :cool:

Kryscztov,
I would play this if you can find 2 more ppl.

You could try a PM to Amersan. I think he was looking to start/play in a diety game. If so we only need 1 more.

I will get conquests next week most likely.

Greebley, welcome here ! :) I want 5 players for this one, but if I can't, we'll just play with 4. Agree with RBCiv rules (though some might be obsolete) ?

BTW, I edited the 1st post : 72 hours (3 days) to complete your turns and report. This is a new game, and we want to play wisely, so as to see all the new stuff. Debates will be more important ! ;)

I generally do play by the RBCiv rules. There are a very few I think are silly, but those that are real exploits I tend not to use even in my personal games. For example of a "silly" one - buying workers in PTW - it doesn't seem an exploit at Emporer or Deity - the price seems a fair one and you aren't going to be able to buy enough to hurt the AI.

Buying workers early in the game can cripple a civ so much that we can already predict it won't be a meaningful menace afterwards, if we buy, say, 3 workers... That's why it's forbidden. Anyway, would you sell some of your workers in the Ancient Era for some gold ? I wouldn't, they are so precious. The AI obviously doesn't feel the value of such units.

I'm thinking of playing as freely as we want. After all, so many things seem to have changed, so it could be interesting to do all kinds of actions we found available, and to report those that can be listed as cheats/bugs/exploits. But there are some things that won't have changed for sure, like the RoP rape : surely it would be uninteresting to do such a thing ? :D Well, I'll wait for more people to express their point of view.

I saw your post in GB's thread : well, he's welcome here ! :p We could merge our games, but I know one thing : I want to play as Sumer on Deity !!! :goodjob: Maybe not enough people are registering because the game isn't worldwide available yet... If anyone wants to play here but doesn't have the game yet, please tell me, it will make things easier to set up. And we are in the same boat : waiting for the game to be shipped. ;)

The point is you can't buy 3 workers from the AI at diety level. You can afford at most 1 or 2 (I am talking early on). The human would bankrupt himself for 2 out 5 (I think they get +4?) workers which isn't going to slow the AI down. The only reason to buy workers at deity is because you want them.

At emperor, if you are worried about it being exploitive, then limit yourself to 1 per AI. Thats usually all you can afford anyway.

At monarch and below, then I feel the argument that it can be exploitive is sound.

I guess the point is that to arbitrarily state that purchase of a worker is exploitive is incorrect.

This game is deity. Because of my points above, I think limiting the ability to legitimately buy a worker because it is exploitive (remember I am passing up techs to do so) is wrong.

Of course if you want to play by that rule we can. Nothing wrong with varients in SG's. So my points above are more philisophical in nature than practical.

This is not an I got it. I am going to buy C3C, but my time and funds are currently limited. I'll check this link back when I've got it (in a few weeks) to see whether there is still a seat free for me. If not, well then I'll sign up somewhere else.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Greebley
You could try a PM to Amersan. I think he was looking to start/play in a diety game. If so we only need 1 more.

you are a good watcher Greebly. :) If I am welcome I will play if it starts soon. I have conquests and have beaten Diety in an SG and was close in a regular epic (never continued, lossed interest). Well I didn't get a PM from Krys... but I saw that you have three spots open in your sig in "The Ultimate Settler Factory". Amirsan is back to SGing. :D

Hello folks ! Glad to have you here !

amirsan, if you clearly show interest in my game, then you're welcome ! You'll get to know how to beat Deity on your own.

Rik Meleet, nice to see you back here ! I don't know when this will start, because I'm still waiting for the game to be shipped... and for people to sign up.

So I consider amirsan is interested.

Don't forget this SG will be played with the Epics spirit... :)

me interested? Hell yeah! I was looking for a game like this, I thought the roster here was full, I didn't even bother looking :). Let the games begin! Or atleast we have to wait... do you know exactly when it should be coming>?

Welcome Amirsan and Rik :)

Rik, maybe when Krys has the game and has posted the start, you can give us an update on getting conquests. I personally don't mind waiting a little bit if it will be soon. Alternatively, I have no problems if we start and post pictures so you can comment, and then have you take a turn when you do get it assuming that was fine with you and the rest of the team.

Greebley,

Might I ask you to re-read the worker buy rule?

"Seed Corn": When the AI's sell off too many of their workers too early, they are selling off their civ's "seed corn", so to speak, crippling themselves for negligible short term gains. Short Version: overbuying AI workers is now officially an exploit! Long version: This aspect may be addressed through the expansion, but for now it remains a serious balance issue. Players may not knowingly acquire the last two workers from any AI civ, until the year 1000BC has arrived. At that point, any number of worker buys are allowed. Until then, players must restrict worker buying using their honest best judgment. Deity games allow for more worker trades than other difficulties, including buying one of an AI's three starting workers at any time. Emperor games should not buy any workers until the civ has had time to produce a third (they start with two), which will be at least 2500BC. Monarch games should just avoid all worker trade until 1000BC, unless you see specific evidence to make you believe they have at least three workers. Less experienced players may have difficulties adhering to this, just use your best judgment. Community veterans will know how to follow this edict. No stealing the seed corn from stupid AI's.

You can see that the RB rules do not forbid all worker purchases. On deity, you are more than welcome to buy a worker in 4000 BC if you magically have contact and gold available.

The point is that the AI does not correctly prioritize rebuilding workers once they are bought (or captured). The issue was addressed in PTW to some extent by increasing the cost of workers. That makes it more difficult for the player to afford, but no less destructive for the AI.

It's likely that the RB rules will be revised as we get to know Conquests. However, unless the AI now knows how to sell its workers without crippling itself (not a change that I've heard about, although it's possible that there are undocumented changes in that area), it's very unlikely that this rule will be removed.

Of course, players are welcome to use whatever ruleset they want in non-RB succesion games. :) I just want to clarify a bit.

</hijack>

-Griselda

Originally posted by Greebley
when Krys has the game and has posted the start, you can give us an update on getting conquests. I personally don't mind waiting a little bit if it will be soon. I am in a bit of a financial (RL) trouble. I hope to be able to buy C3C soon, but I fear I'll have to wait till early or mid December. And that period coincides with a time-stressed period for me. If all goes well I have the game early December and I am able to play when I am up (in between obligations), but I fear I won't have the money to buy C3C till late December and can't find enough time to play till after X-mas. I don't want you to wait for me for over a month for this.

I will be lurking and I am willing to jump in, in case someone drops out. That's my situation. You can choose how to continue in this game. If something changes in my RL situation with relation to my financial situation or my time situation I'll let you know.

I can agree with the worker rule.

Sorry to hear that Rik, I didn't have money too, I had to exchange all of my games for $30 to get the game, good thing it was worth it. It was games I dont play anymore anyways. :)

It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement Griselda. The rules you state are very reasonable. It has been a while since perused the RBE rules I must admit (It might be a good idea for me to reexamine them) and it may be that I read them before the price was raised to a reasonable level for workers. In part I was reacting to how several people (in other threads) have (mis)stated the RBE rule to be stricter than what you stated above. I also think I incorrectly doubled the number of workers the AI gets when I posted (so where I say Emporer I should say diety because that is when the AI gets 2 workers).

*bump*

hey krys, would u mind if I made the 4000BC save and post it with a pic so some pre-game discussion could be started? :)

My favorite way of playing is to choose random for everything. If this is too chaotic for anyone, then any normal settings would be fine with me.

randome is fine with me, it gives it more of a challenge. :)

Yes, amirsan, I'd mind !!! :D Because :

- this is my game !!! :D (and you have plenty of them...) ;
- I don't have my copy yet ;
- we're still waiting for 2 other players, hopefully with C3C coming in Europe this weekend, it will be OK soon ;
- I haven't made up my mind on all settings yet, though everything random or average are 2 possibilities ;
- I want to install my game properly first, and to see if it is compatible and stuff (then get rid of my sig...), and BTW I still plan to play some PTW games, so it will be a mess...

Still, you could start discussing about the settings. I'd favor all average. And please if you could tell where you want to be placed in the roster, otherwise it will once again be an open game for signed up players for the 1st round.

I have found PTW and Conquest games to be extremely easy to deal with. Put the PTW disk in and click on the PTW start icon, or put in the Conquest and pick the conquest start icon.

In other words, just treat them like they were two different games and you are fine.

I think matching the order to the order joined works well. So when you get the game and all is well, just start and play to year 3000, and then I will get it and play 10 turns, then Amirsan plays his 10. I am not expecting us to start until the weekend past this one as I have heard conquests got delayed in Europe?

We may only have the 3 of us (I have tried in two threads to drum up support which may work, but then maybe not). I am willing to play with just 3 if the rest of you are willing to commit to finishing this game (we can't afford losing a player).

OK.... what ever you say...

I agree with anything. :)

OK, folks, I have C3C, and I successfully installed it ! :) I hope it will work well etc etc etc...

So far I haven't even start a game with it, this SG will probably be the 1st game I'll launch. I don't have much time to play after all, and I still have some PTW games to play too.

We need 2 more players !!! Come on Europeans ! I may start the game tonight or tomorrow. It will be a pity if we are 3 only. The settings will be posted once I'll have launched the game.

cool, let the games begin!

Haven't played a single turn with C3C yet, but here is the 1st starting position ever that I got !
Settings will be posted tonight when I come back home. I'll play tonight too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-01_4000BC.JPG

TWO MORE PLAYERS NEEDED ! :)

Originally posted by kryszcztov
TWO MORE PLAYERS NEEDED ! :)

I would like to join. Got my C3C recently going to install it tonight.

Sumerians for 1st C3C game. I like it too. I'm familiar with rbciv rules.

My suggest is to settle on the start spot. What are Sumerian's traits?

That start would be a lot better if Tobacco was a luxury.

Glad you can join us Kuningas :)

I have been playing a demigod game to test the waters. I think the thing that made the greatest difference for me is that upgrading is 3x the difference in shields instead of 2x. This means upgrading is going to cost more than we are used to.

A good change to my mind. Upgrading was too effective so I am glad they balanced it. However, it is very easy to miscalculate the cost.

Starting save, for those who may be interested : 4000BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-4000BC.SAV)

Yeehay, we are the Sumerians ! The year is 4000BC, and we find that it's a good date to create something new : a civilization !

0- 4000BC : The Sumerian tribes unite together by a river, and decide to settle in a rich place, where food is abundant.
Ur founded : start enkidu warrior. 2 dyes sources are in Ur's vicinity.
Worker moves north-east to the bonus grassland.
Set science on Iron Working at 20%.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-02_4000BC_Ur.JPG

With all this food, we're gonna win, baby !!! :D

1- 3950BC : Start mine.

2- 3900BC : zzz

3- 3850BC : zzz

4- 3800BC : zzz

5- 3750BC : Ur : enkidu warrior > enkidu warrior.
We decide to explore to the north. Enkidu1 moves north.

6- 3700BC : Enkidu1 moves north ; he spots a hut and spices.

7- 3650BC : Ur size 2.
Mine completed ; start road.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Science 10%, lux 10%.

8- 3600BC : Ur : enkidu warrior > settler.
The people wish to build a granary, but Ur won't build many settlers fast, so we send Enkidu2 down the river in search for a better spot.
Enkidu1 moves north. We find that popping the hut could delay our exploration and our expansion.
Enkidu2 moves south.

9- 3550BC : Enkidu1 moves east.
Enkidu2 moves west.

IT : We spot an Iberian barb warrior in the north.

10- 3500BC : Ur's borders expand, revealing a cattle not so far from the river.
Road completed ; worker moves south-west twice to the tobacco grassland.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves west.

11- 3450BC : Start mine.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves south.

12- 3400BC : Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves east.

IT : We spot a Portugese scout in the south.

13- 3350BC : Prince Henry is an ugly man and is annoyed with our people. Portugese have 2 cities, 20 gold, and are up Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. No trade possible, though I wouldn't have made any.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves east.

IT : We spot a Hittite scout in the west.

14- 3300BC : Ur size 3.
Mursilis is annoyed as well. Hittites have 2 cities, no gold, but are up Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code and Masonry ! They would only sell Ceremonial Burial, but at a high price.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves east ; we spot some wheat beyond a lake, next to the cattle.
I can produce the settler 1 turn before, but it would delay Ur's growing back to size 2 by 1 turn ; I decide to go with that, as Ur won't build a lot of settlers, and we want them as soon as possible.
Lux 20%.

IT : The Hittite scout pops up the hut.

15- 3250BC : Enkidu1 moves east ; we spot a Dutch warrior and a volcano.
William is annoyed too. The Dutch have 2 cities, 10 gold, and are up Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. Prices are still too high.
Enkidu2 moves east.

IT : A Dutch settler pair appears to the east ; they're already at Ur's gates !!

16- 3200BC : Ur size 1 : settler > enkidu.
Enkidu1 moves east.
Enkidu2 moves south.
Settler moves south.
Lux 0%.

17- 3150BC : Mine completed ; start road.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves west.
Settler moves south.

18- 3100BC : Enkidu1 moves east.
Enkidu2 moves west.
Settler moves south.

IT : The Hittites are already building the Oracle. The AI foolishness begins.
A volcano near Enkidu1 erupts...

19- 3050BC : Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves west.
Settler moves east.

20- 3000BC : Ur : enkidu > worker.
Road completed ; worker moves south.
Enkidu1 moves north.
Enkidu2 moves east.
Sumer (what a crazy name for a town) founded : start granary. Hooray ! The despotism penalty does not apply next to fresh lakes too ! This city will rock.

Well, not so bad for a start : thank the agricultural trait ! Of course you have understood that Sumer is gonna be our settler factory. We have 2 options : either we mine both the cattle and the wheat, and build a granary, either we irrigate both tiles, and don't build a granary. The 1st option leads to a classic 4-turn settler factory (+5 food/turn), the 2nd one to a (faster) 6-turn factory (+7 food/turn). I just can't decide ! I want us to talk about this issue, as it could have some impact on our expansion, and also want the most experienced player amongst us to take his 20 turns now, so as to deal with this issue to the best.
We are the Sumerians : we are agricultural and scientific, and have the enkidu warrior as our UU (in case you didn't notice !). This is great !
The agricultural trait allows to expand quicker : more food = cities growing faster = more tiles are worked = more settlers (and else) on the whole. Because the despotism penalty doesn't apply in city tiles that lie next to fresh water, we want to build as many cities as possible along rivers and by lakes, and this as soon as possible. This will become our main goal regarding the beginning of the game : search for fresh water. Sumer will build most of our settlers, Ur may build some others as well if needed, and workers too.
The scientific trait gives us a free tech in each era. Regarding the Ancient Era, it will halves the cost for libraries, making them our cheapest cultural improvements. We want to get to Literature as soon as possible, so buying Alphabet and Writing will be of high priority. Don't try to research them : they're too expensive, and the AIs will rush towards them anyway. Once we know Iron Working, buy Alphabet at last civ's price, and keep on eye on Writing, so as to do the same. Building the Great Library (from scratch ? or with a scientific leader ? = very unlikely) may be an option : it will depend on our situation then.
The enkidu warrior is a great unit : it is basically a spearman that we can build from the beginning of the game ; it only costs us 10 shields (instead of 20), and upgrades to the pikeman (same), so that our defense military won't be such of an issue (except the high price for the upgrade : 60 gold per enkidu, I believe). These amazing units will allow us to safely explore and expand for a low price, what are you asking for ?

For the very next turns, I suggest we built a worker in Ur, that will connect Ur to Sumer with a road. The 1st worker is on its way to the cattle : don't build a road now ! Let's improve the cattle and the wheat first. Ur could even build a 3rd worker to improve Ur's tiles, while the 1st 2 could quickly improve Sumer's tiles. Your call.
I think we should go for a full expansion mode, after all, there is some room for it (only 7 civs). Don't lose time building barracks. Build enkidus only, to protect our cities and explore the area. I'm not sure if we should send some more units to explore far away : the world is made of continents, and we already know 3 other civs, which is about how many we could have expected to meet.
I stop my comments here. We'll see how it goes, and make sure we have enough time to discuss inbetween turns !

The Sumerians were happily building a new kind of social structure, what they called a civilization. The land was rich, and they knew (better than other people) how to make it richer. And so by 3000BC they were able to settle another place, which they found to be very pleasant : by a nice lake, they learnt how to make good use of wheat fields and cattle through domestication. "This area is so rich that we will soon rule the world !" they were thinking. Thus they called their new city Sumer, in honor of their people (a little weird, but oh well). But how big were they thinking the world was ? They were soon to discover that beyond those little rivers, a huge world was awaiting for the Sumerians to achieve their destinity... (to be continued (by the next player ?))

the save : 3000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-3000BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-03_3000BC.JPG

Well, I would take the save now, but I have to finished saves for 3 other SGs :(. I would also suggest and participate but I need to get crackin on those turns. Opinions when I finish. :)

I will take the save now. I don't know if I am the most experienced - we are probably very close to equal and I have free time right now. Then Kuningas or Amirsan can take it depending on which one have free time first. After that, I think we should try to stick to whatever order we have set up based on the first turn.

Preturn: Check out our empire. I usually do not build a second worker this early, but I will leave it as it is not a bad choice. Just a different strategy. In conquests we won't get any maps for quite some time from the computer so all exploring will be done by us. I will go for more Enkidu's after the worker for that reason. I definitely feel the granary is the right choice for Sumer. We could have a 3-fer if we could afford Masonry, but of course we cannot.

IBT: Lots of Netherland warriors in the area.

2950 BC: Worker heading to cow.
2900 BC: Zzzz

IBT:
Ur:Worker->Enkidu
The dutch start the Colossus

2850 BC: Start roading and mining the cow. The second worker will build a road through our Luxuries to get it to both towns.

The Hittites have Iron working which is what we are researching. No point in switching though. We are many turns into it. I am assuming we weren't planning on getting it exclusively, but rather it will be one less tech we need to buy.

2800 BC: Zzzz

2750 BC: Wines seen far to the north.

IBT: The portuguese are building the colossus.

2710 BC: Zzzz.

IBT:
Ur:Enkidu->Enkidu

2670 BC: Send Enkidu west to explore. We will probably only be growing westward and I want to see what our lands are like.

2630 BC: Hmmm. The lands to our west are full of portuguese. Expansion is going to be pretty rough. I still have several more turns that I can choose to go for a settler instead.

2590 BC: Both Sumer and Ur grow. Sumer is size 3 so I need to raise Lux to 30 (which is why I built the road first BTW - otherwise I would have had to raise to 50). I have been checking tech but we still can't purchase anything meaningful.

IBT:
Ur:Enkidu->Settler - This will shrink our city again, but we need land most of all.

2550 BC: West going Enkidu will explore S now to see if we have good spots to the SW. The new Enkidu is heading east to push back the fog and see what is around us.

2510 BC: Zzz

2470 BC: Well it is the final turn to choose between granary and settler. We are quickly being surrounded on all sides but north. However in the North there seems to be room to grow. If we go for a settler, I am deciding we will never get more than 5-6 towns total (about the break even point for granary vs settlers).
2430 BC: Sumur grows. By using the lake and raising our Lux to 50 I keep Sumer full bore on the granary.
2390 BC: Lux connected to capitol.
2350 BC: Lux connected to Sumer. We can lower taxes to 20
2310 BC: Whip to complete Granary next turn. It just went under 20 shields away. Its growth is set to be in 2 (If I recall, growing and building on the same turn is bad so I slow it down a turn).

IBT: Barbarian horses are seen attacking portugal.
Ur:Settler->Enkidu
Sumer:Granary->Settler

2270 BC: Settler and Enkidu in Ur head north. Warrior stops exploring to "cover".

2230 BC: Lux to 50%

IBT: Byzantine complete the Colossus.

2190 BC: Lux to 40% we completed a road near Sumer.

2150 BC: Sumer now size 5. The covering Enkidu goes to Sumer to be a second guard. A road also completes and I can lower Lux to 30%

It turned out the extra worker was a good idea. I really needed it to get Sumer up to snuff. It still needs work to become a 4 turn settler factory - it is short on shields. You may need to MM a bit to build the settler before size 7.

I purposefully sent the settler from Ur further out than need be. This was to grab more land. We can back fill on the coast later. I don't think the AI will settle there and I think grabbing land is important now. I was planning on settling where it is and grabbing the spices.

We can finally afford the techs because everyone else got them. The exclusive price was just too high for us. I leave any thoughts on tech to the next player. Iron working is still 10 turns away.

There was a settler to the south. We will be expanding north exclusively I think.

Grabbing the hills to the W of Ur might be good if we can. It is a decent chance for iron.

-----------------------------------------

It had taken all the nations resources, but things were nearly in place. Soon the Sumerian culture would be able rapidly grow and make a bid for the new found lands. The citizens prayed to their gods that their efforts would not be in vain...

The world as we know it:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Krys03-2150BC.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-2150BC.zip)

Edit:
One final note: I stongly recommend not using an entertainer in Sumer even if it means Luxury rate is quite high. All our resources went to getting the city to being able to pump out settlers including a whip which has raised the unhappiness. If we have a goodly number of towns we can catch up the small amount of money we are losing now due to this. If we use entertainers, we will have wasted all that effort and be in bad shape. Note that the unhappiness will drop at 20 turns after the whip so keep an eye for this so we don't have an overly high lux rate.

OK, Greebley, nice turns ! It seems you did some welcome micromanagement, and I pray for the next players to do so. And nice little story at the bottom of your log, I didn't even expect you would continue it ! :lol:

It seems a lot of good land has been taken by Portugese and Dutch. They will face war one day or the other, they really are too close for comfort. I'm happy the extra worker was a good idea after all. Now we need settlers ! Get all the luxes that we can grab. Please don't place our cities too close one another, but not too far too. ;) Is it ivory that I see near this Dutch city ? :eek: I guess it could be a target of first choice... Think Statue of Zeus. Can we get ancient cavalries for free too, if we capture a city where the Statue is built ? If not, then we should keep an eye on that sensible point.

About techs, I recommend buying Alphabet once we have Iron Working, to be sure no new civ will get contact before. Then if Writing is there too, buy it at last civ's price if possible, and then try to research either Philosophy (I doubt it, because we will have some gpt deals to honor), either Literature, you know why...

And BTW, please, all read the 1st post once again (and the RBCiv rules if you don't know them well), to be sure you go along the lines of the game. The roster will be edited once everyone has played once.

ONE player needed ! Please hurry up, or I'll close it !

And if anyone (lurkers too) has some thoughts to make about the "granary or not granary" issue (my latest post), please post them, even if it's in a month. I'd happily check what you have to say about that.

Preturn:
No need to change anything.
This is my first try on C3C. Those civ heads looks kind of funny :D
Portugal has already 7 cities :crazyeye:

1 - 2110BC
Ur: Endiku ->Endiku
Kisurra founded. ->Endiku

2 - 2070BC
Win: Endiku (hp 1/3 left) vs 2/2 barb warrior +25 gold gained.

3 - 2030BC
Tax collector in Sumer. Growth in 2 settler in 2.

4 - 1990BC
Ur: Endiku ->Settler

5 - 1950BC
Sumer: Settler ->Worker

Hittites completed the Oracle

6 - 1910BC
Kisurra: Endiku ->Barracks

7 - 1870BC
Sumer: Worker ->Settler

8 - 1830BC
:sleep:

9 - 1790BC
Der founded. ->Endiku
Rush built city close to capital as there were Portugal's settler nearby. It most likely would have take land W of Ur.

10 - 1750BC
IW researched. There is Iron on mountain near Ur.

Next player:
I didn't trade techs. We could buy Alphabet for 200 gold or 12 gpt.
Remember to check Sumer. It needs 3 food on 1725BC to build Settler on 1700BC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/krys03-1750bc.zip

Mmmh, Kuningas, I don't know if you are new to SGs, so I'm gonna tell you a few things.

First, please, tell us that you are about to play, before you actually do it, so as everyone knows it, and so we could prevent another player to play the same turns at the same time. To tell us, just post a "got it" message each time you get the game. Of course once the roster will be clearly known, we will expect you to play at particular times, but right now amirsan could have played as well.

Second, if you had read the 1st post carefully (as stated in my latest post !), you would have known that you were granted 20 turns to play for your 1st round ! I have such rules, because this is a standard game of sorts, and it allows players to have time to take early decisions and get a real feel of the game. So if you agree, you're welcome to play another 10 turns right now. :goodjob: (please tell us you'll do it !!)

Last but not least, I have a few comments on your turns (and your log).
I don't want to force people to write very detailed logs, but yours misses one important thing : how we do in expansion terms. We're basically in full expansion mode, and we have no idea how big our cities are, if you carefully manage the cities regarding settlers, workers... In Deity it's very important, and by just reading the log, we can't see it. And I don't have the time (nor the energy) to check everything each 10 turns by opening the save.
Like this tax collector in Sumer : what was he here for ? If it was to prevent Sumer from growing to size 7, it would be OK (even though I think putting an entertainer instead and slow down the lux slide would be better...?), but we don't know that, so we can't judge your move, and so (the most important) we can't learn a tip or two (we miss an experiment here). I'm talking for players who don't feel very comfortable with such things, here.
Worker in Sumer : we wanted Sumer to be our settler factory and made everything possible to do so before (mainly Greebley's work), so why a worker ? Again if it has to do with the city's growth, we should know about it, so as to comment on it, and LEARN. Maybe it was a wise move, but we won't know, do you get it ? ;)
You rush-built a city close to Ur, due to Portugese presence. OK. But could we actually see where you placed that city ? Maybe it is very badly placed, maybe not. We can't know (except if we all open the save). You should try to post images from the game, like we do in SGs (press PrintScreen, paste the image in Paint eg., then save as .JPG, and upload it here like a save, and finally use the IMG button). Also you can put the save link in the same post as your log's. Maybe you just forgot here. ;)
You didn't trade techs, well you didn't buy any, that is. But you'll have to, if you play another 10 turns. Remember to pay most of the deal with lump sum, as we don't need gold except for tech buying, and it is cheaper to buy something with lump sum than with gpt sum (the AIs want their cash NOW).

Well, I didn't mean to be harsh or anything with you. Just to tell you that you need to enhance your log, so as we can share points of view... :)
BTW, I know we should make a dotmap. What I usually don't like in my SGs is people placing cities according to their feelings, and it ends up in a little mess. We'll do a dotmap after Kuningas's 10 turns (and Kuningas, you can do one too).

And all of you, please read the 1st post ! :lol:

Kuningas : up for another 10 turns

This is my second SG. I'm still "SG newbie".

I didn't post "got it" message since I looked this thread instant before my turns. I see your point here.

I believed that 20 turn rule is for first player only. I verified 1st post and saw "We will all play 20 turns in the 1st round, and 10 turns from then." :) I'll play my extra turns willingly.

I know lack of details in my log. I'm learning this part of the SG's. Perhaps I should read experienced SG players' logs more often.

Like this tax collector in Sumer : what was he here for ? If it was to prevent Sumer from growing to size 7, it would be OK (even though I think putting an entertainer instead and slow down the lux slide would be better...?),

It prevented growth to size 7 and I reduced lux rate to 20% IIRC. C3C have enhanced scientists and tax collectors. I got 1gpt more with collector + 20% lux rate than entertainer + 10% lux rate.

I built worker to improve shield production in Sumer's tiles. 5 spt isn't enough for 4 turn settler factory.

I'll make dot map and play my turns tonight.

Originally posted by Kuningas
It prevented growth to size 7 and I reduced lux rate to 20% IIRC. C3C have enhanced scientists and tax collectors. I got 1gpt more with collector + 20% lux rate than entertainer + 10% lux rate.

OK, I quote that because it really shows what we want to do in this game : getting new habits. I was almost sure of my point of view if this game was played with PTW, but, you're right, C3C has changed. I just forgot about this issue. Why ? Because this is my 1st C3C game, of course !

What we want to do in this game is to give more details than usual about the new C3C stuff. In this case, Kuningas, you could have provided us with all that was related to the new tax collectors in this situation, what you basically did in your latest post. ;) Now, I see that sometimes it will be better to have a tax collector than an entertainer, something that was almost never the case before.

About the worker in Sumer, we already had 2 of them working there ; why did we need a 3rd ? If 1 or 2 workers went off to somewhere else, that could be a :smoke: because we wanted them to set Sumer as a settler factory.

As for writing good SG reports, just lurk the ones we write in this game ! ;)

does this game need another player?

I have the conquests exp.

I can actually see the point of the worker. Even with two, i was still behind with getting us up to the required shields. With mining taking 6 turns, it can take time to get things set up. We probably needed something like 36 worker turns just in mining to get to the point of being able to crank out the settlers.

I have seen this in other games I have played. When you are short on shields, you have 2 choices. You can purposefully slow growth to not grow to size 7, or you can take 2 turns to get a worker. The worker option allows one to continue full production of food, with the worker helping to get to the required shields sooner. Basically, you get the settlers at pretty much the same time, but you have a worker you didn't have before.

The time to use it is when you have 5 or 6 shields and are building mines to get more. You can continue to grow every 2 turns instead of dropping to 3 to allow you to get to the 30 shields.

Kuningas,
I find I like to explain any decision that is a judgement call. Settlers and Enkido warriors are fairly obvious. Even things that seem obvious like building a culture building may not seem obvious to the reader because they may not see the town and realize culture will bring in a resource or lux. Other things you can mention is things that the AI does that effects us in some way. For example if that settler I saw blocked off the ability to build south at all you can mention it (I am assuming they did?).

Pictures can explain a lot too and save you from trying to describe where you put your city. If you have the later windows (it may even be 98 on), the paint program can be used to save jpg images. You hit the print screen, alt-tab or use the windows key and use the start menu (accessories, paint), use ctrl-v to paste. The image is too big (ppl like it under 800), so I save it as jpg, and then use the stretch/skew under the image tab. If you enter 78% for the horizontal & vertical you are just under 800.
Then save it again. The reason to save it BEFORE scaling as well as after is that when you save it as jpg you change how paint scales the image. The program starts out in bmp which is very bad at scaling and makes the text especially illegible. jpg is much better at scaling and so by saving it as jpg first you get a better image.

You may know all this or have a much better image program, but if not, I think the above is the most simple way to make images. The only other trick you might use alot is to use the square dotted line button on the top row. This allows you to grab a piece of an image. This is useful because a piece of the image doesn't have to be scaled. You click the square, put a box around it and hit ctrl-c to copy. You can then select new on the menu. If the white box looks too big for your cut piece, then I pick attributes under the image menu and set the image to 10 by 10 pixels (or any other small number). You then hit ctrl-c to paste (and if it asks, allow it to grow the picture to the size of the paste). Then just save it as a jpg.

You can of course also use the drawing features to make circles or arrows or what not.

Don't know if the above is useful, but there it is just in case.

Your turn sounds good (especially with the reasons for your decisions which I agree with). If you can post a picture at the end of your turn, that would be cool. Things change so much in 20 turns. No prob you can't or don't have the time though.

Krys,
I think I find 20 turns at the beginning for all players a bit too long. By the time Amirsan's turn comes around it will be 1000 BC and all towns will be in place and the map full. This means you and I got to place a single city each (and you only got one because you didn't go for the granary). I think the first player playing 20 and the rest playing 10 is better because then you and I get to participate more in the setup phase of our empire. I am not saying that 20 turns for the first player is bad or anything, it just that now that I have tried it, I think I prefer going to 10 turn rounds sooner.

[Edit: If anyone has better ways to use the silly paint program tell me. I would like a crop feature where I didn't have to cut and paste into a new image, or a way to make paint start in jpg (the first I have searched for and the second just occurred to me - I have never checked if it can be done).]

@ Teknoice : Hi ! You seem to be new here. Do you know what really goes on in SGs ? Have you already won on Deity or Emperor ? Do you agree with all that is said in the 1st post ? :D If so, then welcome aboard ! :goodjob: Please confirm, and please read all the posts until now if you join us...

@ Greebley : I understand your point of view, and I know it's not common to let everyone play 20 turns. I'll think about that. The thing was to let everyone play the same amount of turns (obviously), and to really influence the start of the game. But maybe it goes too fast. Maybe this could work for a large map ? Anyway, we'll carry on as is for the rest of the 1st round. But Greebley, I'll think about that in my future games, I think it should depend on the map size and the optional variant (more turns in OCC eg.).
For the worker, I can understand the point, but : why wouldn't Ur build the worker instead ? And sooner, so ? There must be a road between both cities now, so a worker in Ur could quickly get to Sumer's tiles to help his mates. Maybe Ur was too low on population ? Anyway, expansion must be carefully planned now. Let's wait for the dotmap at the end of Kuningas's turns. Everyone can make one or comment on one...

Once Kuningas has played his whole 20 turns, amirsan or Teknoice (if he confirms he wants to play) can pick up the game (say "got it !" :) )... for 20 turns.

Because the worker is nearly free in the best case (or even free)

The primary expense of a worker is the food. You take it from Ur and it drops in size and will lose a shield or two for every turn until it is size 6. Workers in Ur delay settlers by 10 turns. This is why at the start I said it was not the choice I usually make. The worker can wait. A worker is hugely expensive in Ur.

So in what case is the worker nearly free? If we are size 5 have 5 shields, and grow sin 2 turns. Assume we are going to get more mines soon though.

Case 1: Build worker + settler. the worker finishes in 2 turns putting us back at size 5, but then our mines are done and we build the settler in 4.

Case 2: Build a settler. Here we don't have sufficient shields. after 2 turns we have 10 shields toward our settler. But now we can't grow in 2. If we do we will reach size 7 before building the settler, which is bad. So we have to slow the settler down. It takes 5 turns since our mines come on line (otherwise it would be 6)

So our settler is a turn later in the first case, but we have an extra worker. This worker can even pay for itself by making its own improvements. If we have 3 squares to mine before getting to a settler every 4 turns and only 2 workers, then the worker will get that final square built sooner. If the extra work by the worker makes a turns worth of difference (so we have to slow the next settler down as well in case 2, but in case 1 the mines complete so we don't have a slow down and make the settler in 4 turns).

For this example, it would be:

Case 1) worker(2), settler(5), settler(4)
Case 2) settler(6), settler(5)

That is the free case. This is fairly rare. Still a single turn delay for a worker who then may speed up some other towns growth can be worth it. I didn't step through the turns so I am not positive this was the case, but my best recollection of my ending turn makes it likely that the worker was bought with at most a turn delay.

The point is that food is more valuable than shields, and by switching to a worker, you continue to grow every two turns. To build a settler would require one or more times you have to purposefully slow down growth.

Anyway that is the theory. Kuningas would have to confirm if this was the case.

[edit: Hello Teknoice :) Hope you can join us. Five players would be nice.

Well I'm not exactly new to this site :D I did register when Civ 3 first came out. I've been playing the game off and on since then.

No I havn't played a SG before but i've been reading many threads and I believe I know how they go down ;)

I also play on high difficulty levels.

I'll read up and study the current situation.

Nice to meet you all now let's win! :cool:

20 turn period is too much at least on this size map. Krys founded 1 city, Greebley 0, me 4 cities, 4th 2-3 cities. In spite of that we should stick on 20 turns in 1st round.

@Greebley. I know how to use images. Remember Justben's last SG. JB01 - Generic random deity (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=66389)
I use Jasc PSP 7 with it's a lot of better than paint. It has layers, jpeg optimizing etc. You can dl trial version from http://www.jasc.com/download_4.asp

I confirm reasons for worker. I considered it pretty much same way.

@Teknoice. Welcome on board.

10 - 1750BC
It's now worth to make some trades.
Portugal: 205 gold for Alphabet.
All 3 rivals have writing and they are at least 5 techs forward.
Slider 8.0.2 as all possible techs are researched by AI.

11 - 1725BC
Ur: Settler ->Enkidu

12 - 1700BC
Sumeria: Settler ->Settler
new Settler to south. Lux rate to 30%

Dutch city Utrecht's borders expanded.
13 - 1675BC
We have 3 Enkidus scouting.

14 - 1650BC
Sumer can't build settler in next two turns. One grassland needs to be mined. It will be mined in two turns.
Sumer product 6spt + 2 corrupted shields. In 4 turns it products 24 shields (+4 due growth). I don't know yet how corruption is calculated in C3C. It's second far est city to Ur at distance 5.
Off topic about workers:What I did: Turn1: to move 3 workers to grassland. Turn2: 2 workers mining and one roading finished in 3 turns. Turn5: 3 workers used road to move two tiles. Turn6: 3 workers mining in 2 turns. Total 8 turns and all Sumer's tiles are mined. Alternative moves: Turn1: 2 workers to 1st grassland and one to other. Turn2: All workers mining. Turn5: 1st grassland mined moving 2 workers. Turn6: 2 workers moving. Turn7: 2 workers mining. Turn8: Mines completed. Neither that would have all mines completed in time. Maybe Sumer should had build 4th worker it would only had delayed settler production by turn. /off topic

back to the game. Sumer's settler production delayed to complete in 3 turns.

15 - 1625BC
Ur: Enkidu ->Enkidu
Kua founded between two Dutch cities. Eindhoven and some other covered by fog. We want later to raze Dutch's Eindhoven. Kua ->Worker
Marad founded E of Ur. Marad: Barracks

16 - 1600BC

Eindhoven's and Lagos' borders expanded
17 - 1575BC
Sumer Settler ->Barracks (We can build our settlers on Sumer. There aren't many city places after all)
Settler moving N.

Dutch's completed Pyramids.
18 - 1550BC

19 - 1525BC
Could buy writing but not without gpt deals.

Hittites's completed The Statue of Zeus
20 - 1500BC
Now we have border neighbors on east, south and west. We shall start war asap. Next player should concentrate on military mainly. Corruption is starting to hurt Sumer. Sumer can't build settler on next turn. We have other city at same distance Maybe it causes extra corruption?

We have only 4 techs (pottery, Alphabet, IW and BW). Mass catapults + Enkidus / archers would be nice (bombarding targets units first when attacking cities on C3C). We could self research Masonry in 7-10 turns and then buy mathematics from AI (Hittites built Statue of Zeus so they have it). Don't know how well that strategy do. Although AI may have Knights when we got mathematics :lol:

Take a look at dot map below year 1500BC. Opinions about the dot map accepted.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03_dot_map_v1.jpg


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1500BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/krys03-1500bc.zip)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

got it..

20 turns here we go!

Load it up...
Pre flight checks:
1500 BC

I'm going to research masonry and eventually
buy warrior code. Need some to build offensive units.

Kuningas is right.. we need a war soon.
We're squished between civs and we can't wait till the AI gets
fuedilism. I'm worried about Kua too, hope it doesn't become
a victim of a culture flip!

I'm going to continue to expand to the NE and E
(closing off the gap.) Maybe 2-3 more cities then I'll stop.
The dutch will probably get most of the northern area anyway.
So let's see. Gonna build a couple more workers too. We need more.

ok..
GO!

Set slider to 2.8.0
We'll get Masonry in 8 turns while gettin +2 gpt.

1 - 1475 BC
Move Settler + Enkidu Warrior (*EW*) E
Leave EW at east waiting for a settler
Move two EWs back home from Portugal territory.

2 - 1450 BC
Sumer builds Settler ---> Settler
Moving Settler NE

3 - 1425 BC
Kua worker finishes road
Move Kua worker to mine grassland
Move workers to build road between Der and Ur

4 - 1400 BC
Kisurra builds barracks ---> Worker
Byzantine city of Constantinople completes Great Lighthouse

5 - 1375 BC
Kua builds worker ---> barracks
Move worker to mine Game near Kua
An EW is trapped in between Portugal territories :( have to leave
him there for now.

6 - 1350BC
Move worker to mine grassland near Ur
Set slider to 5.5.0

7 - 1325 BC
Ur builds Barracks ---> Worker
Sumer builds Settler ---> Worker
Move new settler N

8- 1300 BC
Masonary researched!
Set slider to 10.0.0
We have 200 gold and now getting +18 gpt
Kisurra builds worker ---> EW
Move new worker and start building road to Iron

9- 1275 BC
Everyone is asking for 218 gold and 7gpt for mathematics! :o
I decide to hold off for a bit. I can't wait for iron forever
and I don't wanna keep building EW's so I buy Warrior Code for 170 gold. It's not getting any cheaper than that.
Ur builds worker ---> Archer
Move new worker to build road between Enkidu and Kisurra
New city: Kuara! Starts to build EW.

10-1250 BC
Portugal demands 21 gold.. I pay.
Worker builds road near Kua
1 of 2 EW returns home from portugal territory, stays at Sumer.
Worker moves to build mine near Der

11-1225 BC
Ur builds EW ---> Archer
New city: Kuta! Starts to build EW
Mathematics is still a bit too much for trading: 16 gpt and 64 gold.
Worker mines grassland near Der

12-1200 BC
Der builds Barracks ---> Archer
Marad builds Barracks ---> Archer
Worker builds road near Kua

13-1175 BC
Sumer builds Archer ---> Worker
Kisurra builds EW ---> Archer
Worker chops down forest near Kua

14- 1125 BC
Ur builds Archer ---> Archer
Worker moves to mine grassland at Ur
Worker irrigates grassland at Ur in order to irrigate plains for Der

15- 1100BC
Sumer builds worker ---> barracks
New worker moves toward Marad

16- 1075BC
Our last EW in Portugal territory returns home.
Mayan city of Chichen Itza completes Mausoleum of Mausollos

17-1050BC
Not much a couple moves.

18- 1025BC
We now have iron to most cities!
Ur builds Archer ---> Swordsman
Marad Archer ---> Swordsman
Der builds Archer ---> Swordsman
Worker builds Road near Ur
Worker completes road between ur and Marad
Worker irrigates near Marad
Workers move to irrigate toward kisurra
Kuara builds EW ---> Worker

19- 1000BC
Worker irrigates near marad
Worker mines grassland near Ur
Worker chops down trees near Der

20- 975 BC
not much
Mathematics are can be traded for 266 gold and 4 gpt

Our Puny Civ:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03_Puny_Civ1.JPG

I hope things get better :cool:
--SAVE-- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-975_BC.SAV)

Our empire is looking good albeit a bit disjointed. No wonder Orange (Netherlands I think) has been crowding us - they had no land. Fighting them will be interesting with our towns intertwined.

Ya, it occurred to me you knew all that after I posted Kuningas :blush: Guess I got carried away :crazyeye: I think I would like a better program than the paint. It is missing certain features I would really like to have. Ah well, maybe some lurker will find it useful.

Amirsan, I guess that makes you up. You finished the SGs you mentioned? I have a vageue recollection of you being sick?? Or am I hallucinating that? In any case, keep us informed :)

Err, hum... well, welcome aboard then, Teknoice !! :D It seems you are an experienced player, so that's OK for you to be here.

Well, I don't have much time to comment, but one thing comes to my mind : WE NEED A WAR !!! :lol: I thought we were off for a builder game, but as always the AI makes it interesting for the human players to play. Look at the situation : there are 7 civs including us on a standard map, and we are 3 civs packt like sardines in a crushd tin box ! (reference here ;) ) So we have 2 options : either we research like mad (we're scientific), either we don't research or just this or that, build up our treasury and army, go to war, and ask techs for peace after a while. We're on the way to option #2, and there's no way to go back...

I understand what you all said about extra workers, I just didn't go through the very details, but I get the point. Why is it hard to figure it out ? Because it takes time and energy to do such maths, and I do so much already in my games ! :rolleyes:

Well, amirsan, if you can say hello here... Please say "got it" or you could be skipped. We haven't heard of you since the beginning of the game.

okay, sorry, I am back, I was occupied with many things in my life and couldn't follow this lately, I will start reading from the first turn later and play them. I dont know when they could be posted, maybe tommorrow after school.

ok, I realy "got it" now and will start playing and post tonight.

I am now ready to start realy following this for sure, no worries from me now. ;)

Preturn: Daaaamn, its already 975BC! This is the first time I touched this game! So I look around in this save to see whats left for me to do... I change the luxury rate to 20% and Sumer without an Entertainer for more food. Food is more valuabl right now than gold, with food sinse we are going military mobiliazation we need a bigger population and if gold means alot then food with a better population produces more gold. So ultimatly, food is most important right now. The Dutch seem to have an army, I dont think archers will help much against horsemen so more Swordsmen are realy needed and for more swordmen in this lifetime we will need more food and population for more shields.

Turn 1: The Hittite enter our lands aggresively, I dont know if they are planning an attack on us, but I take caution. Moved some archers toward them. I start deforesting in Ur. I dont have a clue of what is you guy's plans on trading techs, I dont know if everyone is willing to spend all of our gold and 3gpt for Writing, I wait anyways. I will wait to see if the Hitite attack us.

Turn 2: ooohhh, the Hittite are against the Dutch! I didn't know! :lol: Haha, okay, it looks like thier troops are moving to a front, maybe the Dutch would be more easier to attack sinse the Hittites have thier Three-Man Chariots. Kirsurra> Swordsmen. The Dutch have only one source of Iron which is north and unhooked. Three cities to the north look like they are protected by Warriors and thier military is directly south of Sumer. So aking caution that our offense should go north and defense goes south. The Dutch will find it hard to fight on two fronts though easier with Horsemen in which is thier main force as I can see. I hurry the barracks in Kua so we can build more defenses there fast in time for our war.

Turn 3: Ur: Swordsmen> Same. Sumer: Barracks> Swordsmen. Der: Swordsmen> Same. Kua: Barracks> Enkidu.

Turn 4: Sumer revolts, sorry. I buy Writing from the Hittite for 310g. Everyone else has Map Making, Philosophy and Code of Laws. I think that was a :smoke: move but what can I tell u...
I think we can have a shot on the Great Library if you ask me, so I go 60% on Literature which you may think is smoky too but if I start a Palace in Sumer now as a pre-build we can get it, Lit comes in 23 turns from now. If we do get it the game in technology will be a breeze and our bacward civilization will be advanced, I take the risk.

Turn 5: Nothing new.

Turn 6: Ur: Sword> Same. I will not start war on my turn, I will let the nex play do that sinse I will only play 10 turns not 20. My relatives from Puerto Rico is comeing tonight, I need to get ready.

Turn 7: Marad: Sword> same. Movd troops to the norther cities ready for an attack, not enough though.

Turn 8: The dutch force is realy crowding Sumer... Kuara: Worker> Curagh. We need another resorce connected becuase Sumer is haveng an unhapiness problem. For it to be Entertainer free it needs a 30% lux. which will cost us -9gpt. The Dutch are trying to hookp the iron though the road is going through our land in which we can easily destroy when they finish,,, hehe.

Turn 9: Der revolts, lux increased to 10%.

Turn 10: The Dutch are in the Middle Ages! The Dutch and Portugese. No trades possible that will benefit us anyways, this is why we need a Great Library.

I dont know what to do. I think I played a crappy set of turns anyways so I will not continue it. Next player should do much better of this situation.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-730_BC.SAV

I got it.

I will try to set Sumeria for a decisive war. :)

Krys are you submitting your turns? it's been 3 days for no replies.

Krys, I can switch places with you if your life is hectic right now.

Hum, ah yes... Guys, I'm so sorry. Yes I can't play when I want, and sometimes it appears I don't want to play... Am I ill, Doctor ? :D I'm gonna play very soon now. Check back in a few hours.

Very sorry, but I had 72 hours, didn't I ? :o Not so late here, but you're right, still...

Ya, you got the 72 :D I had forgotten that when I posted - so many people use 48. Even if it is tomorrow that you can play it would be fine in my opinion. Mostly I was checking to see if life was really hectic. and you could use a few more days by switching.

Good to hear you are on top of things.

Is it me or the upload button has been disabled ? I can't find it anywhere...

I have played my turns, and I am ready to post my report, but if I can't upload the save and pics, I'll have to wait. (The attachment feature is too boring.)

Krys,
It is at the very bottom of the page. Scroll down past all the post and choose upload file. I used it earlier today.

It's happened to me as well, but only when I still had Civ opened. For some reason the CFC page doesn't scroll down far enough to see the buttons when Civ is opened. Just closing (after saving) Civ readjusts the screen-size and the buttons appear.

So, I'm not the only one... Except that Civ being on another computer, I wasn't browsing the forum with Civ opened... It's fixed now, I can see it.


inherited turn : Some MM could have been done better...

IT : Dutch units go through our territory towards the Portuguese.

1- 710BC : Der : swordsman > swordsman.
Please ! No auto-goto units !!! None ever ! Please read the rules of this SG.
I fear that the Dutch might get Swiss Mercenaries soon... This is bad. They lack iron in their main cities, though.

2- 690BC : zzz

3- 670BC : Ur : swordsman > swordsman.
Kua : enkidu > walls.

4- 650BC : Kisurra : swordsman > swordsman.
Marad : swordsman > swordsman.

IT : Hittites establish an embassy in our capital.
Chichén Itza (Maya) completes the Great Wall.

5- 630BC : Science 50%.

6- 610BC : zzz

7- 590BC : Ur : swordsman > swordsman.

IT : Here they come... Hittites ask us if we want a RoP + a MA vs. the Portuguese. I decline.

8- 570BC : Hey, we can see Hattusas, capital of the Hittites ! It's got no river nor coastal position, and mush marsh.
Spices connected, at last !
Lux 0%.

IT : Dutch ask us 18 gold. Since we're not too far from war, since they lost much resource fighting the Portuguese, and since they lack iron, I decline. They declare war !

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-04_570BC_DutchDeclareWar.JPG

Their workers go home, including the one that was roading the iron mountain. They capture a worker near Kua, and they retreat from Kutha with a horseman.

9- 550BC : Der : swordsman > swordsman.
Kua goes into disorder... Because of OUR oppression ? This is new, for despotism... We just lost a worker there.
Kutha : worker > barracks.
Science 70%.

Be sure we get the Great Library in Sumer.
Stop researching techs if you think we'll get it after Literature is known.
Defend against the Dutch with extra swordsmen to be built. Try to capture all cities in the northern area, then make peace.
If peace : don't ask for techs if we are to get the GL !!! Ask for 1-2 nice cities instead (luxes, strategic positions, lone cities...).

Consequences :
It was times of trouble through the Sumerian Kingdom. The people knew that their destiny would be decided in the battles to come. They sweared to punish the Dutch for what they had made. Being so near from knowing a so beautiful thing (Literature) made the Sumerians feel proud of themselves, and they were happily getting into this war. King Gilgamesh was about to have an idea, with Literature about to become a Sumerian discovery : write an epic story about the battles he was to fight against the evil Dutch ; he wanted to name it the Epic of Gilgamesh !

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-05_550BC_AttackDutch.JPG

the save : 550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-550BC.SAV)

I only played 9 turns because someone played more than 10 or 20 once... Next player until 350BC. You can see the current turn in F8.

The roster :
kryszcztov (just played)
Greebley (up now)
Kuningas
Teknoice
amirsan

I got it and am playing. Will post when I finish.

------------------------------------------------------------

Well I have done one turn and things are "interesting". Here it is:

Preturn: Check out the world situation and do a survey of towns. There are a few optimizations that can be done so I do them.

Our offense looks very strong, our defense a looks very iffy. Kua is unlikely to be ours for much longer. I really wish we had better than 2 regular defenders in towns like Sumer and Marad. It will depend on what gets thrown against us I guess.

Lit in 4, losing 8 gpt when we have 20 left means we may not really get it in 4. I lower science to 50% and the time is the same. We are still lit in 4 but now we are at -4 gpt.

Hit space...

IBT:
A horse attacks Kua and we lose. We now have 1 regular defender.
A second horse attacks and we are red-lined but win this starts our golden age

Well the AI definitely went for our weak spot. No more attacks, but Sumer is in grave danger. The great libary may not come to fruition. I was hoping that I would get a turn to defend it better, but the attack is coming too soon. Pray to the RNG me lads. Odds are we will lose it.
An archer attacks one of our archers to the north and loses.

530 BC (1):
First check: Nope, can't end the war. Not willing to talk.

Ok, 5 horses and 2 archers can all attack our two defenders and there is nothing I can do about them. In addition, two more horses can currently reach the city, that I can do something about. I can send the sword and a Enkidu to block their path from our capitol. The other alternative would be to simply abandon Sumer and retreat the defenders to the capitol. We are size 7 so that plus fortification gives us a defense of around 4. The odds are probably agains us winning, but are high enough that I will try to defend it.
So Veteran sword and Enkidu to the S. I strip an Enkidu from Der to send to the capitol for defense and switch production to Enkidu which I get in 1. A worker is in danger, but if the AI goes for it, it means 1 less attack on our city, so I am not going to move it, but let it continue its mine. I send a Enkidu from Kisurra toward our capitol as well.

We will have a lot of swords next turn, so I am hoping even if Sumer falls, we should be able to hold the rest of our cities.

To the North and East things are better off. A 1 hp horse is buzzing around or workers. I use a Enkidu to kill who becomes a veteran. This means I can send the swordsman S to toward Marad.

Battle for Arnhem:
V sword vs reg spear loses - spear promotes and still has 3 hp
V sword vs reg spear wins
V sword vs injured veteran spear wins.
City taken I keep it. It may flip, but I don't want another city to plop down here. It is a bad time for us to be making settlers.

Move the stack of archers and swords to outside of Haarlem.
Production of Kuara switched to Enkidu wasting 2 shields.

I keep Sumer on palace. I could switch to a military unit, but it doesn't seem worth it.
Move the Enkidu one squares S, so if Sumer does hold, we can fortify with that Enkidu as well.
Der isn't happy, so I raise the Lux to 10%. I should have actually done this in the preturn actually. We had a scientist in our wonder building city which should have top priority. Lit is now in 3.
Finally many animals are sacrificed to the Sumerian Gods to keep Sumer safe. Then I hit space for the moment of truth....
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Krys03-530BC-SumerInTrouble.JPG

IBT: Well Sumer fights valiantly, but falls to the 5th or 6th attack (out of 6, one horse went after the sword-enkidu pair), so it was really close. Additionally, the two battles that killed units were very close, its too bad the units weren't veteran. It could have made the difference. So no great library unless we can get a great leader from the war. I am not going to restart building it this late in the game.

The sword and Enkidu were also attacked. The Enkidu was killed, but the sword lived. It is red-lined though. At least 1 and possibly multiple spear guard Sumer. We aren't going to get it back without a major force.
Kua is attacked by an injured horse which loses.
An archer to the N attacks and loses to a sword.

Ur: Sword->Walls
Kisurra: Sword->Enkidu
Der: Enkidu->Enkidu
To add insult to injury (or is it injury to injury), Kua flips to the Dutch.
Marad: Sword->Sword. Hmmm... Marad is also in flip danger which could get really bad.
Kuara: Enkidu->Worker

510 BC (2):
Fortify 2 Enkidu in the forest and move the 1 hp swordsman back from Sumer defended by the Enkidu. I would like to keep all the swordsmen I can.

To the north: Last turn I decided it would take too long for the swords to get back to matter. So they will continue their original purpose of grabbing dutch lands.

Veteran archer loses to regular warrior in the hills.
Regular archer kills regular warrior (we have regular archers? Ah, ok - only 1)

Attack Haarlem:
Sword vs spear loses
Sword vs spear wins
Archer vs spear wins
Archer vs Archer wins and takes Haarlem. Again I keep the town. Problem is I can't starve them as everyone is resisting.

Boost Lux again. I MM'ed Der to 10 shields but it is unhappy without 20% luxury.
MM some other towns.that need it. Should have done this last turn actually (GA changed everything).

Dutch still won't talk to us.

More goats die and I hit return.

IBT: Attack on Enkidu wins. This one was guarding our "Eastern Pass". I may more troops there as well. Defense isn't bad (nowhere is it good), but I need offensive units there too. It will probably be some of the healing attackers of the east.
Der:Enkidu->Enkidu

Dutch have Monarchy (they are building the hanging gardens).

490 AD (3): I move some swords forward, spot some horse that may attack us next turn from the north. My southern forces move out of range. They will probably step on our dyes, so I artificially boost the Lux to 30.

IBT:
Two horses attack our swords. One retreats the other one wins.

Nine lesser troops enter our territory near the capitol. Oddly they don't step on our dyes, but do cover the dyes we don't have connected. Odd behavior.

An archer in the north steps next to my archer.

470 AD (4):
Our regular archer attacks their archer and loses doing no damage.
Two swords attack the two horsemen and kill them taking no damage.

Arnhem still has 3 resistors. I stop bothering to supress them and leave the city empty so if/when it flips, we don't lose troops.

We get Literature which means we could build the GL with a leader (assuming we had elite troops which we don't) - No promotions to Elite yet.

Veteran sword barely kills a regular spear.
Veteran sword loses to an elite warrior though it is red-lined (in forest, non-fortified).
Oh good god. Veteran sword loses to veteran warrior in same forest.
Suddenly, the priests find the problem. The gods don't like goat! :eek: The priest switch to sheep and lambs in desperation.
The next attack vs one of the red-lined warriors promotes the sword to Elite. At least one god likes lamb.

Still no diplo with the dutch.

I establish an embassy with Portugal. I wanted to know our flip chance for Der.

I haven't yet decided whether to trade Lit, my thought is to watch the price. If it starts to get less, then someone is reasearching it and I need to trade right away. There is some risk we won't get anything (if a new civ is met for example).

We are going for math in 9 turns.

IBT: A bunch of troops show up all along the line.
attacks and kills an Enkidu warrior guarding it.

Kisurra: Enkidu->Enkidu
Marad: Swordsman->Enkidu

Dutch start Sun Tzu.

450 BC (5): The dutch will talk. The will even give us wheel for peace while threatening us with 15 units? I take it.

Hmmm... Our flip chance in the two cities I captured is high. I switch Ur and Marad and Der to settlers and abandon the two cities. We need to get settlers there before the opposition.

Also notice a new border???? Can I contact a new civ first? I send a unit to the border.

IBT: See a boat of the new civ.

430 BC (6):
Ah that is right. It doesn't matter as we can't trade communications or maps. It is a fourth civ to trade with. Well we have lit and 4 civs don't:

We get Map Making and Ceremonial Burial for Literature, 1 gpt, 18 gold.
Examining worth of Lit. it appears the Dutch and Portugal have met Byzantium, but the Hittites have not and will give us full price:
We get philosophy and code of laws for Literature, 4 gpt and 3 gold.

Portugal will give us Mathematics (which is partially researches so reduced price) for Literature and a buck (1 gold).

Holland will give us Mysticism for Literature and 1 gpt.

By the way we can't get to Byzantium by walking. Their influence crosses to our continent.

Well I got the best price I could from the Lit. I judged the chance of our getting the Great Libary was near zero.

---------------------

The war did not go well. We exchanged our second best town and a good chance for the great libarary for some more land that we can build towns (which is not entirely useless - We can get 3-4 towns if we get there first and I think we can). We simply didn't have enough defense back in our homeland for deity level. The fact the troops were regular and the city wasn't within 3 of any other city were the clinchers that sealed its fate. I also erred in not moving troops toward Sumer from the capitol in the preturn. I missed the fact that Sumer in particular was so vulnerable. Hopefully someday we will get Sumer back.

-----------------------

We are researching republic in 50. Not completely sure we can wait that long, but it might be too expensive for us to buy any sooner. I sacrificed the corrupt town of Kuara's growth for it by switching a citizen to a scientist.

Kuara and Kutha are switched to building Libaries to get the culture... In fact all towns seem to have no culture which makes sense - we just got literature. I will see what I can do about that... Kisurra also switched to a libary.

IBT:
Ur: Settler->Granary
Der: Settler->library

410 BC: Start moving the settlers. I have troops laid out so they can slow enemy settlers if need be.

390 BC (8): A quiet turn. I move some settlers, workers and a few troops.

IBT: The dutch spring into motions and charge into our lands. I ignore this. Not much I could do anyways. Looks like they are taking on Portugal or the Hittites though. A dutch boat may prove serious competition for the wines. This could be bad. I would bet good money it has a settler. It will be a close race

Marad: Settler->Libary

370 BC (9): Move settlers. I more troops to try some blocking but no way I can cover everything.

350 BC (10): I think I can cover enough. I think we win the race. There are 3 settlers. I didn't really choose sites, just tried to get them there in time. We may be able to build more towns. I think we want to get as many towns in as we can. We are going to need it.

So a rough set of turns to play. We did gain some land that we needed and have better defined borders, but it was at a cost.

Der and Marad are both in flip danger. Our culture is poor compared to the rest of the world. We should make more Enkidu for these towns I think. 9 for Der might be sufficient due to the distance of the Portugal capitol (6 square overlap, 6x culture, 1/4 for distance so 6*6/4=9). Marad has 2 or 3 squares overlap but dutch capitol is much closer.

It was interesting how well the AI zeroed in on our primary weakness. I would say the AI tweaks have helped conquest AI's.

When you load the game it looks like we are in trouble. However, the troops are going PAST our city. The AI has another target so I would leave them alone. These are troops WE won't have to fight.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Krys03-350BC-TroopsInLands.JPG

Here is the lands I hope we can claim all of. We have 3 settlers in the area.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Krys03-350BC_Newland.JPG

The save (http://http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/KRYS03-350BC.zip)

You did quite well compared to our situation.
Cities were poorly defended. Dutch is stronger as it looks.

Military GL can't rush wonders. Our only hope to get Great Library is capturing it from AI.

Right, I keep forgetting that. Thanks for reminding me.

From my play of conquests it appears GL can only rush buildings and small wonders? Anyone know what happens if you rush your palace and try to switch to a wonder?

I am thinking we need to get our economy up and get currency so we can start buying our way back into the game.

Originally posted by Greebley
From my play of conquests it appears GL can only rush buildings and small wonders? Anyone know what happens if you rush your palace and try to switch to a wonder?

It won't allow you to switch to a GW. Just like if you had done a forest chop etc.

Originally posted by Kuningas
Military GL can't rush wonders.
Could you repeat that another hundred times, please ? :D

Well, err... ahem !!! :o So. We lost Sumer, our best city. I know I'm responsible for that loss, I thought that, the Dutch not having iron, our chances were fair to defend our cities. And that "dumb" AI that didn't go after the captured cities. :mad:

I think I should have sent less swordsmen in the north and keep some in our core. I have problems judging how many units we need to keep this or that city. It's a nightmare and the RNG makes its final decision over that ! :cry:

Our situation is critical : will we recover from that war ? I hope so. I can't remember who started the palace prebuild in Sumer, but it may have been a decision that was taken too early, and without a good sense of the situation. The war with the Ducth was almost unavoidable, they were locked by our land. We should have seen that and got prepared for a more successful war. Cheap enkidus could have helped more here too. How would we have got the Great Library ? I'm not sure we should have searched to take it. Given the land we got, military units were more needed than the GL. We could have grabbed it though. Talk about RNG luck. Or we could have given 18 gold to the Dutch (if you think I should have caved in, then why don't you say it ?), and waited for the Library to be completed before going to war (with more units, with plenty of gold to upkeep them, since the Library is ours).

So. My great builder game with the peaceful Sumerians transformed into a warfare nightmare ! :cry: Anyway, there is no way we will lose this game. Not with my teddy-bear-ish Sumerians. :)

The roster :
kryszcztov
Greebley (just played)
Kuningas (up now)
Teknoice
amirsan

I don't think the GL gambit was a bad decision, even though it didn't work out. I think even the not giving in to the Dutch could have worked out if either you or I had realized just how much danger Sumer was in ahead of time and moved the two Enkidu to the south on your turn 10, my preturn. I was kicking myself for not seeing it. I couldn't have moved the sword in the capitol (0 movement left), but even one Enkidu (2 to be safe) moved even 1 square S of our capitol would have kept Sumer for us. 3 or 4 defenders would have kept the city. Once the initial troops were killed, there were lesser numbers so I could keep ahead and keep Sumer safe.
[Edit: I have a habit of sometime repeating myself if I am not careful, but that last paragraph was a doozy :eek: ]

I am thinking (after the fact), that 3-4 units in the cities on the border is a good idea. 3 is probably ok if there is a city within 3 that it can "borrow" the troops in one turn, 4 would be a minimum for cities like Sumer that are not within 3 of any city.

I think we waited too long to build barracks as well. We had 2 regulars in all the cities. I think we would of done better with getting the barracks before building the second Enkidu for each city.

I do agree that we did need some swords left at home. I have gotten in trouble when I have all defensive units in that I can't stop the enemy from pillaging runs.

I think if we can build up we can recover from the war. We do have more land now and so can build more cities which is a major plus for the long term. The game is by no means lost - and I think we have a decent chance on recovering from the loss.

All in all, the war was a learning experience for me. The number of defenders made me uneasy, while instead alarms should have been going off and I should have been pulling troops out of the safer cities and rushing troops to the defense.

Preturn:
Hittites, Portugal and Byzantines have the Republic.

1 - 330bc
moving settlers

2 - 310bc
Der Library->Sword
Kutha Library->Barracks
Nagsu founded->Library
Susa founded->Galley

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_port_vs_dutch.jpg

3 - 290bc
Susa Granary->Settler
I won't wait any longer. Moving units to Portugal's border. With Dutch aid we can capture a few cities.

4 - 270bc
Tutub founded-> Galley
Second Iron connected. I won't sell it to Dutch.

Portugal offers MA vs Dutch. I refused.
5 - 250bc
Kisurra Library->Sword
Der Sword->Sword
Marad Library->Sword
Military advisor says that our army is strong vs Portugal. War declared :hammer:

6 - 230bc
Ur Settler->Sword
Slider 1.9.0 Republic in 14 turns. -16gpt
win: vet sword vs reg spear
win: elite sword vs reg spear
Braga captured. There were no culture in Braga.

7 - 210bc
win: vet sword vs reg spear
win: vet sword vs reg spear
Leiria razed.

Dutch were faster they captured Sagres
8 - 190bc
Der Sword->Sword

9 - 170bc
Ur Sword->Settler
Marad Sword->Sword
Hittites have captured Portugal's city.

10 - 150bc
GA ended.
Kisurra Sword->Enkidu
Kutallu founded->library
Hittites: Peace Treaty and 11gpt for PT and Republic. Rest of their cities are too faraway.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Military Units:
4 Archers
15 Swords
14 Enkidus

I left next player to hit the revolution button. I gained some more land and there is one city place on western coast. Those who slaved Sumer :mad:. Dutch won't have iron soon. Starting war vs them may be good option before those nasty Swiss Mercenaries.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_150bc.jpg

The Save 150bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-150BC.zip)

You meant : peace treaty with Portugal, right ? :rolleyes:

Well, not bad for so few turns. I'm glad with your decision of going to war against the Portuguese. Nice opportunity to gain more land in the early part of the game. Constant fights between AIs made it easier of course.
The big deal will sure be Dutch iron... I'm not sure : do we know all our continent ? I don't think so. We should be wary that they are seafearing. Will that enable them to get iron sooner by sea ? Anyone has a solid answer on this ? Cause otherwise, as long as we are at war with them, they can't get iron. No way we will sell some of our iron !!! No way ! Once, and they upgrade all their defense to mercenaries ! No way !... (I think you got that now. :p )

The roster :
kryszcztov
Greebley
Kuningas (just played)
Teknoice (up now)
amirsan

Excellent Kuningas! Masterfully played. :goodjob:

Getting us republic was huge (as well as more land). I feel much better about our position now. Once we are a republic we can grow towns faster than every 5-10 turns which was really slowing us down.

I think we should starve Braga to size 1. It will reduce flip risk.

Do we really have any hope of keeping the Dutch from the swiss mercs? I had the impression Feudalism was already out there. If so all they have to do is trade for the iron to get them. I will check out the save and see if ppl are building Sun Tzu. I seem to think they were.

[Edit: The dutch have chivalry already. If they trade for iron, we will have to contend with knights and swiss mercs. They are also building the knights Templar which would give them a 5-3-1 unit every 5 turns. They are building it in Middleburg which is right on our border. I am not sure if we should attack now, attack right after the knights templar is finished and claim it for ourselves, or wait until we are a good bit stronger. In any case we are bound to 5 more turns of peace since I got a tech for peace with them (one of the RBCiv rules).

Currency would be nice. I would make that our next tech purchase.

yo guys, I am sorry, I will have to quit. I am loosing the time I had when I started in this game becuase of School and Basketball. I have been doing this with my other SGs as well so its not just this one, sorry.

What a pity you have to quit, amirsan. I think it's not the 1st time too... :( So... we could continue with 4 players, if no player claims a spot before my next turns. Oops, there's only Teknoice left before me actually. Are you here BTW ? And yes, Kuningas, I didn't emphasize on your excellent set of turns, but you did a nice little piece of work here. :goodjob: Republic for free, what do people ask ?

As for the "Dutch Iron" folder (would you say that ? you know, secret stuff), the only way to be sure if they have iron (by trade, I suppose) is to go see them and see if we can sell them iron. If we can, they're naked. If we can't, then we're toasted, and it's highly possible that they would use our roads for their nasty trade. :mad: Greebley, you're right about RBCiv rules ; I might even read them once again for memory purpose. :rolleyes: Also, does the Templar require iron ? Because, and I guess crusaders require some, Dutch would be silly to build the Templar if they can't crank out crusaders. :lol: Do I miss something here ? And if we capture it (or the Statue of Zeus), do we get the free units as well ? What about the required resources in this case ?

in your game? This is the first time... anyways, why wait for me? I will have no time to play so you guys would have to skip me. Makes no use, dont you think? Sorry.

Nope, they get made every five turns from now until steam power. It might even be worth a bit of cash to check on their progress. BTW, the dutch had a decent number of towns committed to wonders - including our old town of Kua :rolleyes:

---------------------------------------

Anirsan, like breaking per turn deals in civ, you are doing irreparable damge to your "SG rep" by quitting SG's. If you decide to play another SG, I would look very seriously at your ability to commit to the game. It would be a real shame if you really did have free time (in the summer?), but couldn't find anyone who would let you into their game. Your track record to date is abysmal. (Perhaps I shouldn't critique your decision like it was a civ game, but I did it anyway. Appologies if I am stepping out of line).

I am ok with both options - playing with just the four of us, or allowing a lurker to join if they wish.

Well, I won't be as harsh as Greebley, but amirsan, you need to wisely evaluate the time you have before joining groups like those of SGs. I have the feeling that you join like 5-10 SGs suddenly because you find yourself so enthusiastic, but then after a while you can't find the time or you're burnt out... You need to rethink of that issue. I myself have just rethought about the time I have, and with exams coming soon, I found it wise to retire from the GOTMs as for now (still playing QSCs for a little taste), and not to start more PBEMs now as well... And only 1 SG at a time (plus another one I'm giving advice for newbs ;) ).

BTW, where is Teknoice ? I want to be quite flexible about the roster timing, but it's been more than 2 days since Kuningas played, and we haven't seen a "got it" yet. Teknoice please indicate you're gonna play soon, otherwise you'll be skipped. :o Don't want to be mean too, but 2 or 3 skips of the kind could lead to forced retirement... I hope that I won't have to do that, I really hope not.

I hope I wasn't too harsh. I didn't mean to be. Its just that you seem a good player in many ways Amirsan, and it would be a shame to lose you entirely.

On Teknoice - it being thanksgiving weekend, many people are spending time with family. This can make it hard to post sometimes. My suggestion is give him until tomorrow for his "I got it" when he may be back. Otherwise, just play yourself and he can play after you.

Krys,
I would go ahead and post your "I got it" when you can play. Teknoice hasn't been able to log in for over a week, so something may be keeping him busy/away from his computer.

I got it, so. Maybe Teknoice has some problems... maybe not. If he doesn't show up until next time he's up, then I'll consider him out of the game. It wouldn't be a bad idea, since he can't play anyway.

To any lurker : if anyone feels like joining this game now, please tell it very quickly ! Read the 1st post, the RBCiv rules, and go ahead ! I won't play my turns before another 24 hours, so if I find out that someone wants to play, then I'll let you play instead of me.

If we can't find anyone and Teknoice doesn't show up, I have no problems playing just the 3 of us. 4 is of course preferred, but 3 is enough people to have a good succession game.

inherited turn : As it is unlikely that the Dutch will grab the Great Library, I set science on Horseback Riding at 50% (due in 4 turns, -2 gpt).

IT : The Golden Age has ended.

1- 130BC : Der : swordsman > swordsman.
Nagsu : library > barracks.
Kutha : barracks > enkidu.
Still at 4 turns from HB (-13 gpt), I was blurred by the Golden Age.

IT : Constantinople completes the Temple of Artemis.

2- 110BC : zzz

3- 90BC : Ur : settler > swordsman.

IT : It seems we'll be beaten to the empty site in the west...

4- 70BC : Kissurra : enkidu > enkidu.
Susa : galley (whipped) > library.

5- 50BC : Horseback Riding discovered.
Marad : swordsman > swordsman.
Kutha : enkidu > enkidu.
Our empire falls into Anarchy !!! We draw an awful 8-turn anarchy period ! And I just remember that we have gpt deals running... Stupid me. I'm forced to set some taxmen in our cities.

IT : Cuzco completes the Hanging Gardens.

6- 30BC : 3 gpt deals have gone, allowing us to fire the taxmen.
The Great Library is now being built in Amsterdam...
Anshan founded, before the Hittites do as well ! "Start" library.
I decide not to attack the Dutch : being in anrachy sucks !

IT : Rotterdam completes the Knights Templar ! Farther than expected (Middleburg), and it seems it doesn't require iron...

7- 10BC : zzz

8- 10AD : zzz

9- 30AD : Ur revolts, I don't know if I could have prevented that, though it doesn't make such a big difference.

10- 50AD : zzz


That's it, nothing great to report, other than with this anarchy period, we're not getting back. The Dutch having the Templar are a great threat, we won't win this game if we don't crush them sooner or later. I think we should wait for more swordsmen to come, then attack with all of them at the same place, going from one city to another one, and bring some allies along (Hittites).

Consequences (a la Age of Empires campaigns, I liked that !) :
The Sumerian people had to struggle for life. Surrounded by more powerful empires, they knew that they had to revolt against their old despot, so as to get a better government type (well, at least that's what some elite citizen believed). With one threat gone in the west, everyone had the evil Dutch in mind... The Sumerians were becoming more and more warlike, though they didn't wish to go to war without a solid preparation. Maybe a better government could bring them glory on the battlefields ?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-06_50AD_ByzantianIsland.JPG

the save : 50AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-50AD.SAV)

The roster :
kryszcztov (just played)
Greebley (up now)
Kuningas
Teknoice (skipped last turn)

If any lurker wants to play, please indicate quickly !!! :)

Checking in....

I should ba able to play this tonight or tomorrow night.

Ok, I got only 3 turns in and out of anarchy and have come to a major decision point in the game:

1) We are currently at 0% science, 10% lux and are running -7 gpt with 10 total in the bank. we need to do something. The first possibility is to go to war. The dutch would probably make the most sense as they still don't have iron. This is risky. We are not at all ready for war, our outlying towns are lightly defended and I would have to boost defense before declaring war. The dutch are strong and the war could potentially go badly.

2) The trade method: We can trade Iron, and 2 luxes, for Construction, Currency, and Polytheism. This would get us our free tech. I know Feudalism is out there, but don't know about Engineering or Monotheism. We might be able to trade if we got a tech that wasn't already owned, which would really help financially. I would then switch core town to market places and try to build up our infrastructure.

Here is the save: There may be an option better than the two I listed above. I will play no more tonight, I would really like to here from you if possible before I play. I am really not sure which I personally prefer.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-110AD.SAV

I take inner look to the save after I go home.
IMO our rivals have all three MA techs. It's now 110ad and they have been in MA for a while.

Ya, they very well might have all 3 of the initial techs and we would have no chance of any deals.

Either way is a gamble. Trading the iron gambles that they are missing a tech and we get lucky. The war is a gamble in that I don't know whether we can defend our odd shaped empire when surrounded on all sides by a strong enemy.

One reaso I think we are out of money is that previously republic charged 1 gold per unit. Now in conquest appears to be 2 gold (but we get a few units free). If I did the iron deal, and couldn't get a big chunk of cash, then I would probably need to disband some or even all of our regular units(I would keep the veteran and elite). We would be gambling that the dutch aren't going to turn on us soon.

Kuningas, I will wait to play until you have a chance to look at the save. From this game and the previous one, you seem to have a very good understanding of the military aspects of Civ.

Krys, I would also like to have your opinion as well if you have the time.

[Edit: War with the Hittites could be done too. I looked at it briefly, but it didn't seem attactive. We would get cities far away and completely corrupt assuming we succeeded.]

Lemme go back home after school ! :p

So. Yes a war with the Hittites wouldn't be very profitable. The Dutch have nicer cities (like Sumer :mad: ), they are closer for us, lack iron, and with the FP being bugged, I'm not willing to build/capture a 2nd core, at least now where we are not strong. Forget about a monopoly tech : Sistine, Sun Tzu and Leo being built make no doubt where the AIs are up in techs. :( And the Dutch already have the Knights Templar... Brrr...

I think sooner or later we'll take our revenge on the Dutch, we cannot win without that. I think I was wise (at last !) not to declare war on the Dutch in my turns, it would have been terrible for us, now that I really think of it. We need to crush them before they get saltpeter online. Does anyone know if we can see if they have saltpeter in their cities by investigating one, if we don't know Gunpowder ? If that works, then it could be worth sending a spy sometime, before we pick the wrong target. :o If it appears they can't get saltpeter (that's very possible after all), then we should go to war with our swordsmen, but a lot more than what we have now. And send them into 2 packs, one going for Sumer, one for Middleburg, so as to speed up the invasion and to confuse the AI. :scan: That way we could grab some techs and some cities, but techs are more important. We could even sell them some iron once we have crippled them so much... if we are lucky enough to get Chivalry for a next war (with knights or cavs). No need to say that the Templar city is of high priority, but it lies at the end of the landmass, so a big war effort may be needed.

BTW, now that we are in Republic, try to get all the techs we can by selling luxes to the Hittites. And may our galley find some new friends (trade partners)...

EDIT : Let's not forget about the GL... The Dutch are still in the race for that one, but the window is closing... If they build it, we should stop researching and selling luxes for techs.

Krys,
If I am reading your post right, you are saying:
1) don't trade them iron as we are going to attack them at some point
2) They are too dangerous to attack now.

I can get some cash for the lux, but I am pretty sure it is not woth enough for a trade for currency. In order to get currency, I need to make rather than lose money which means disbanding units, which in turn makes it less likely to be able to attack the dutch. Its a real bind we are in, for without currency, getting sufficient funds to support an army will be very difficult.

I will definitely wait until you have had a chance to check out the save before playing (i.e. I will not start again until I hear from you both).

Definitely check the wonder situation (I will too). If they are in fact building all those wonders, then you are right and there is no further trade past getting into the middle ages.

Note that if the Dutch get saltpeter OR find someone to trade iron with, they get a strength 4 defensive unit (swiss merc or musket).

The chances of them not having defense 4 units by the time your turn comes around again is probably very small.

I prefer the choice 1

If we start war now. Dutch's main military forces are in that western part. Maybe they go after cities Ur - Sumer as in the last war. Defensive line from Braga to Sumer (after captured) should hold down their attack. They will get Lagos's iron connected soon. Acting quick is preferred. Our maintain problem will be solved after 2 turns of war. After Sumer captured we should stay defended and send 3-4 swords after Lagos so they won't get iron without trading. While main force will stop Dutch's counter attack. Threat of 4 north cities isn't big. Kutha should remain well defended and gather more troops for attacking Middleburg. When Dutch are ready for peace negotiation we hopefully have crushed their lands in three parts. Amsterdam has Pyramids and GLib and it's somewhere in east.

Well, it still demands me some kind of effort to open a save (on another computer), but anyway :

Yes, I believe we aren't ready for war now, but waiting too much might cripple us. 2 gold per unit is damn high, and our army is still quite weak ! :eek: You're right about Currency. I usually don't make a fuss about that tech because I'm usually starting to win at some point, but here we are in a critical position, and BTW units require more gold under a Republic, so marketplaces are highly needed so as to counter that, and to support our cities' growth (by increasing the lux effect, like in the old PTW days).

So all in all : Greebley is right, we need Currency ! :p Then try to buy it from the Hittites with our luxes... and don't be afraid to pay some gpt, even if it means less research... Don't forget that in a few turns we will get back like 11 gpt, I think (from Portugal). Or you could wait for that to buy Currency.

No selling iron to Dutch ! :mad: If they get iron we are doomed. More than if they get saltpeter, I hope you know why... :rolleyes: Our army costs us a lot, so we're gonna use it to good effect. The thing is to declare war at the right time. I know it's a bit hard to find out when it will be the best for us. But always keep the option open, guys. And try to get the most of their cities once at war, even if it means war weariness and the loss of some junk cities. The Dutch must die !!! :mad: (ahem, sorry for our friends on this forum :D )

ok, I am going to do my best and see what I can do. I will try not to lose too many towns :D

Preturn:
Not much to do with us being in anarchy. Run thru the towns to see if we can grub about for more food, but nothing is found.

IBT: The dutch just put the great library in Amsterdam. That really is a nice city with pyramids and TGL.

70 AD (1): Decide to explore dutch land - send a unit off.

IBT: Hittites start Sun Tzu.

90 AD (2): Zzzz

IBT: Finally out of anarchy. Good lord. -25 gpt due to our extreme unit costs. So much for the idea of trading for a tech or two.

110 AD (3):
Boy is that tempting. We can get construction, currency, and polytheism for iron, spices and dye, which would push us into the next era and possibly get us good gold...at the cost of strengthening the dutch who are already strong.

Well, I don't seem to be doing well tonight. Somehow I exited wordpad without it saving??? I am baffled.

So you get the short version of the war (it being 230 AD).

I waited 2 or 3 turns to move units for defense. During that time the Hittites demanded one of Luxuries and I caved. We had a road to the Hittites, so I went for war. I took Sumer with some losses and then Lagos. During that time, I made a MA with the Hittites. Immediately, after it I realized that the 20 turns of war could be really bad. The next turn a Dutch unit stepped on the road between us and broke the trade route. I had debated on waiting 8 turns, for a harbor and another route to the Hittites, but I just couldn't afford to keep our units. I only kept our units for the short time before the war by joining a good portion of our worker force back into the cities. We are short on workers and need to replenish them after the war (unless we capture enough foreign workers).

So our trade rep is trashed with the Hittites (and thus the rest of the world). I took a gamble and we lost.

The dutch had really spent themselves on the previous war. Attacks have been fairly light. We have lost some units, but our cities are not in danger. The hittites are taking the old portuguese lands and we have the possibility of doing serious damage to the dutch.

I have killed 2 crusaders so far. As long as we remain at war they won't be much of a threat as they come one at a time.

My advise is to continue the war. We seem to have the upper hand and will need to gain big to counteract the ruined rep.

The situation was very tough, and I messed some things up, but also did some things right I am still not sure the best way to handle the position I was in.

Kuningas,
I am hoping you can make some progress against the Dutch. We might even be able to eliminate them.

BTW we do have a Lux deal with the Hittites. It was a straight Lux for Lux deal which the AI will make even with a bad rep.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-250AD.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-250AD.zip)

Got it.
We can save our reputation by destroying Hittites and Byzantium before other contacts ;)

We're at war !!! [party]

So bad that, along with the C3C bugs, we're now stucked with this weird reputation thingy... :( Yeah, contacts are slow, but we won't destroy the Byzantines before we learn about other people, believe me !!

Crush the Dutch ! :) As long as they have enough big cities and we don't suffer high war weariness, continue the war. Once we have captured a good portion of their land, if you think you have to make peace soon (see comments above), then grab some techs instead of cities (if you can do both then it's cool).

The roster :
kryszcztov
Greebley (just played)
Kuningas (up now)
Teknoice (skipped last turn)

0 - Preturn
Some MM --> gpt increased +13.
We don't need walls in every city.

1 - 260ad
Braga Harbor ->Barracks
Win: 5/5 sword vs 4/4 longbow
When we have signed MA with Hittites vs Portugal?
We would get Polytheism in peace treaty.

Win: 3/3 longbow vs 4/4 Enkidu and promote to Elite. Dutch completed Leonardo's Workshop in Utrecht
2 - 270ad
Marad sword ->sword
Kutha sword ->sword
Win: 5/5 sword vs 3/3 spear
Win: 5/5 sword vs 4/4 longbow
I'll target utrecht. Swords moving to position.

lost: 2, longbow vs 4/4 Enkidus. win: longbow vs 3/5 sword.
3 - 280ad
Ur sword ->Enkidu
Kisurra sword ->sword
Der sword ->sword
Win: 4/4 sword vs 2/4 longbow

win: 2/4 longbow vs 4/4 sword.
4 - 290ad
Ur Enkidu ->Enkidu
Win: 4/5 sword vs 4/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow

lost: 3/3 Crusader vs 4/4 sword.
5 - 300ad
Ur Enkidu ->sword
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 Crusader

Dutch unconnected our second iron source. Lost: 3, swords vs longbows. Hittites singed peace treaty with Dutch. Well we aren't only ones with damaged reputation.
6 - 310ad
Marad sword ->sword
Der sword ->sword
Anshan barracks ->sword
Nagsu Barracks ->sword
win: 4/4 sword vs 2/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 1/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/4 longbow
Due war weariness lux rate to 30%.

lost: 3/3 longbow vs 4/4 sword.
7 - 320ad
Ur sword ->sword
Lagos walls->Library
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
Utrecht captured.
win: 3/5 sword vs 3/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 3/4 sword vs 3/4 longbow
Eindhoven captured.
8 wins in a round :)

lost: 4/4 longbow vs 5/5 sword.
8 - 330ad
Kisurra sword ->sword
Braga Barracks ->Enkidu
Win: 3/4 sword vs 1/4 longbow
lost: 5/5 sword vs 4/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow

9 - 340ad
Der sword ->sword
Kutallu Barracks ->sword
win: 3/4 sword vs 3/3 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow

lost: 4/4 longbow vs 2/4 sword. I lost our Galley :(

10 - 350ad
Ur sword ->sword
Marad sword ->sword
win: 5/5 sword vs 3/3 Crusader
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/4 longbow and promote to elite
lost: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 3/3 enkidu vs 1/4 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear

Portugal: Peace treaty and 284 gold for PT and Currency.

There isn't reason to stop war. Amsterdam (Pyramids+Glib) will be ours sooner or later.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_350ad.jpg



the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-350ad.zip)

Thats right. My reason for fighting potugal got deleted when wordpad died on me (I wonder if I hit ALT-F4?).

The only way we could afford to ally the Hittites vs the Dutch was that I needed to add the alliance vs Portugal to afford it. The Hittites were already at war.

One of the primary reasons for the MA with the Hittites, was that I really didn't want the Dutch to sign an MA with them against us. They would have cut through our western cities like butter.

I was really pleased to see how weak the Dutch were. The attack was the right call. They had really expended troops on the Portuguese war, and I think the Hittites got much of their existing army to the west.

I agree completely - Get the pyramids and GLib and don't make peace until we do! We can catch up AND have our towns grow faster. We pretty much need it to catch up in tech.

Krys, I wouldn't stop the war even for war weariness until Amsterdam is ours. Even if all our cash is going to Lux, this is not wasted if we get the GLib.

Yes the Dutch seem quite weak, though they have many cities left... I think Greebley made the good decision at the right moment. But I just wonder how come we kill so many units (longbows and spears) without capturing many cities at the same time ? Are some of these units Portuguese ones ?

Now I agree : we need to crush the Dutch once for all ! This will be our easiest way to do it : swordsmen against spearmen !! :cool: Because capturing the GL before WE get Education will give us all the techs we lack, getting to Amsterdam is the thing to achieve in this war.


@ Teknoice : you're up !!! I somewhat doubt you'll be able to play this game again, but this is your last chance. It seems you're experiencing problems with your computer or RL... In 24 hours I'm up.

The battles aren't anything odd. Those are the units the Dutch make each round and sends at us. As you mention they still have cities building units and are weakened, but not dead. Advancement toward enemy cities will not be fast - not with us owning only speed one units and enemy longbows coming at us every turn. There were also pillaging spearmen being sent into our lands to deal with as well. I felt Kuningas made good progress on his turn.

Portugal was already totally out of the picture on my turn. They had two cities that we couldn't even see (and were probably fishing villages at that). I know their capitol had fallen already. I never saw a unit of theirs.

[Edit: One more thing we might want to do is to build some more Enkidu warriors. They can cover our sword stacks and get killed instead of swords, then the Dutch are killing 10 shield units, while we are killing 40 shield longbows back (24 with the AI discount). This is an especially good situation for it as we have no fast units to be slowed down by our Enkidu and our defending Enkidu is 1/2 price of normal spear. Remember also that no Enkidu is a waste as they upgrade to Pikes.]

I have just lost my post, and I don't ****ing want to rewrite it... OK for what you said, Greebley (again, I had written detailed comments).

The roster :
kryszcztov (up now)
Greebley
Kuningas (just played)

Teknoice out. Any lurker welcome. Again I had written detailed comments here.

Got it.

All battle wins were vs Dutch's military. They sent regularly spears to pillage roads.

Before capturing GLib, we need to have more contacts. We could send suicide galleys, and wait for AI to research Printing Press. At present Byzantines are building Copernicus, it's possible to slingshot Sumerians near to IA. IMO At the moment Dutch don't have any more contacts than us. They haven't got all possible techs from GLib.

@Greebley, I agree about Enkidus. I was confused Enkidu's low shield cost vs spear.

inherited turn : I change just a few things...

IT : Theodora asks for wines, which I give her. I know that will make her more powerful, but she can bring the Hittites against us, so...
We lose 2 swordsmen.

1- 360AD : Kutha : swordsman > enkidu.
We lose 3 swordsmen.

IT : They lose 2 longbowmen.

2- 370AD : Utrecht : enkidu > enkidu.
Resistance in Eindhoven ends.
Nagsu : enkidu > enkidu.
War weariness strikes.
They lose 1 spearman and 1 longbowman.

IT : We lose 1 swordsman, they lose 1 longbowman.

3- 380AD : Sumer : library > barracks.
Kisurra revolts, my bad, Eindhoven as well.
Der : swordsman > swordsman.
We lose 3 swordsmen, they lose 4 spearmen, and we capture The Hague with our last 1hp unit !

IT : Portugal declares war on the Byzantines (good luck) !
We lose 1 archer.

4- 390AD : Marad : swordsman > swordsman.
Braga : swordsman > swordsman.

IT : We lose 1 archer and 1 swordsman, they lose 1 longbowman.

5- 400AD : Kisurra : swordsman > swordsman.
Kuara : galley > harbor.
Kutha : enkidu > enkidu.
We lose 1 swordsman, they lose 2 spearmen, and we capture Leiden.
Lux 50%.

IT : We lose 2 swordsmen and 2 workers, they lose 1 crusader.

6- 410AD : Anshan : swordsman > swordsman.
We lose 1 enkidu, they lose 4 longbowmen and 1 spearman.

IT : We lose 1 swordsman and 1 worker (captured). I'm playing ****ty tonight...
Constantinople completes the Sistine Chapel.

7- 420AD : Der : swordsman > swordsman.
Nagsu : enkidu > enkidu.
Tutub : walls > harbor.
We recapture the worker.
They lose 1 spearman.

IT : The Hittites end our RoP with them.

8- 430AD : Lagos : library > barracks.
Eindhoven revolts...
Marad : swordsman > swordsman.

9- 440AD : Ur : marketplace > swordsman.
Kutallu : swordsman > courthouse.
We lose 1 swordsman, they lose 1 spearman and 1 longbowman.

IT : We lose 2 swordsmen and 1 enkidu, and we lose Utrecht (Leonardo).

10- 450AD : Sumer : barracks > swordsman.
Kisurra : swordsman > swordsman.
Der : swordsman > swordsman.
Braga : swordsman > swordsman.
Kutha : enkidu > enkidu.
War weariness up.
They lose 1 longbowman.


I must admit that the heart wasn't there when I played. :( With this stupid war against the Dutch, and with RL issues, I wasn't in a great day. I hope Greebley will be able to make better turns. :)

the save : 450AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-450AD.SAV)

Ok, I am up.

There is a small chance I will be able to get to this tonight, but tomorrow is more likely.

Preturn: I see why you were feeling down Krys. Our economy is pretty rotten and we are having a real strain with full WW. I raise the Lux to 60% which gets most core cities to be able to handle it. Some outlying ones are starving though.

Elite Sword attacks a longbow and loses
Vet Sword attacks a Crusader guy and win.

Hit enter

IBT: Signs of a lot of longbows.I think we need to back off and regroup. Not sure we can survive long enought to leave ,but will try. 2 die attacking the stack near Utrecht and 2 win.

460 AD:
I retreat. The Enkidu pillages to try to keep the longbows away from the swords.
I am sending my boat to meet new civs (I hope).
A spear is on our road and threatening to cut our empire in half, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Defend the Hague

IBT: Didn't work. Stack wiped out - lost 3 swords and a Enkidu. They lose a long bow.
A longbow attacks an Enkidu behind walls and loses.
A lonbow attacks an Enkidu in the mountains and wins.
Spear doesn't pillage (thank goodness)

Ur: Sword->Sword . MM Ur to build a sword every 2 turns instead of every 3.
Sumer: Enkidu ->Enkidu
Susa: Library->Catapult
Marad: Sword->Sword

470 AD:
V Sword vs R Spear loses (Spear 1hp)
V Sword (3hp) vs 1hp R Spear wins and premotes to Elite.

Switch Braga to a Enkidu
Buy World map from the Byzantines. for 427 gold

IBT:
Dutch troops advance.
Portugal demands Iron. I decline and Portugal declares war.
Sumer: Enkidu->Enkidu (forest chop)
Der: Sword->Sword
Braga riots. Sorry guys.
Nagsu: Enkidu->Enkidu

480 AD: Switch Nagsu and Kutha to workers (they are starving).
Move units around

IBT:
Longbow attacks Enkidu on a mountain and loses
Longbow attacks Sword on a mountain and wins.
Longbow attacks Enkidu on a mountain and loses
Longbow attacks town and wins.

Ur: Sword->Sword
Braga:Enkidu->Enkidu

490 AD:
V Sword vs Longbow wins.
E Sword vs Spear wins

IBT:
Longbow vs Enkdu on mountain loses
Longbow vs Sword wins
Longbow vs Enkidu on mountain loses

Sumer: Enkidu: Enkidu
Lagos: Barracks->Catapult
Kisurra: Sword->Enkidu
Anshan: Sword->Enkidu

500 AD:
Boat tries to cross to other continent.
Change Eindhoven to walls losing 7 shields (it is under attacks).

IBT: Eindhoven attacked by Badly injured longbow who still wins and we lose the town.
Troop movement

Ur: Swordsman->Swordsman
Der: Swordsman->Swordsman
Marad: Swordsman->Swordsman
Braga: Enkidu->Enkidu
Quell resist in leiden which riots.

510 AD:
V Sword vs Spear wins

I hadn't noticed this before but all our cities are 4 squares apart. This is really hurting us. Not only does that mean we are wasting a lot of land, but also cities really have troubles defending one another. I have become a real fan of placing towns 3 apart and this game is an example why. It is true this will help once we get to sanitation, but in the meantime it is not making things easy for us.

Boat makes jump to other lands. Will meet other players.

IBT: Longbow attacks sumer and wins.
Spear upsets our happiness and Sumer Riots
Kisurra: Enkidu->Enkidu
Kutha: Worker->Enkidu
Tutub: Disposes Ruler and becomes Byzantine! We are getting hammered from all sides it seems.
Bachs is built.

520 AD: Sword kills Spear

IBT:
Longbow kills sword
Longbow kills Enkidu
Longbow loses to mountain Enkidu
Longbow wins vs mountain Enkidu
Crusader loses to mountain Enkidu.
Longbow loses to mountain Enkidu (another mountain)
Longbow loses to mountain Enkidu.

We hand wine over to the Hittites when they demand it.

Ur: Sword->Sword
Lagos: Catapult->Catapult
Braga starves
Nagsu: Worker->Catapult

530 AD:
Sword loses to a longbow
Sword kills longbow
Sword kills longbow and becomes Elite
Sword kills Spear

Change Hague to the walls.

IBT:
Enkidu wins vs a spear.

Hague Builds walls
Sumer: Enkidu->Enkidu
Kisurra: Enkidu->Enkidu
Der: Swordsman->Swordsman
Braga: Enkidu->Enkidu

540 AD:
Swordsman->Longbow dies

IBT: Dutch troops move
Ur: Swordsman->Swordsman
Marad: Sword->Sword
Anshan: Enkidu->Enkidu

550 AD:
Sword vs Longbow wins
Sword vs Longbow wins
Sword vs Spear wins
Sword vs Longbow wins
Sword vs Crusader wins. We get a LEADER! on the last battle. Leader moved to Marad.

Notes:
I tried to preserver our troops to get some kind of attack force, but it was pretty painful. Our borders are all way to close. I can't let the spears pillage all our lux so I need ot attack and then lose those troops to the counter-attack.

I built up a bit of a force, but Dutch forces keep coming. The net result was negative progress - I lost a town.

Unhappiness is ridiculously high. I don't know if continuing the war, or giving up is better. This is not a situation I am good at. I feel if we could get the GLib we could go somewhere, but it is a hard proposition even with the dutch not having iron.

The one good thing was the last battle and getting the leader. Armies are nice in Conquests.

Kuningas, you might have enough forces to do something (provided the counter doesn't kill everything).

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-550AD.zip)

Got it.
I'll form 2 swords + 1 Enkidu in army.

At last one good news !!! :eek: A leader ! But, Kuningas, why an enkidu inside the army ? Both the enkidu and the swordsman have 1 movement point, 2 defense points, but the swordsman has 3 attack points, which could be helpful if the army is redlined. Of course that would save 1 swordsman (I mean : 20 shields), but we're not so mad at our number of swordsmen, given our losses, are we ? I think the best way is to put our hope in the army. That could hardly make the difference in PTW, but here in C3C it seems they are really powerful ! Could one of you post all that is related to the enhanced C3C army ? :)

I'm not "one of the team", but in C3C armies:
- Get +1 movement point (so a sword army moves 2)
- Gets free pillage (costs no movement to pillage)
- Gets 1/6th of total offense added to its A and 1/6th of total defense added to its D (so an army of 2 swords + 1 endiku has 3+3+1=7 total offense, so 1 is added to its A -- it attacks with 4 strength with the swords and 2 strength with the endiku. And defends at a 3)
- 1/6th becomes 1/4th when military academy is built
- Heals much faster than old armies (don't know/remember exact details)
- Heals even in enemy territory

There may be a bit more, but that's the main gist of it.

Arathorn

What ever I put on army it's overpowered anyway :cool:
It has Blitz ability aswell? I won't use it to attack it protects our sword stack.

Ya, protecting our sword stack will be huge. I really had trouble keeping the swords safe. Even if we used the army to pillage so that the dutch cannot bring units to bear on every square would be a major step forward.

For example, that nice attack force Krys left me got completely obliterated, even when I was trying to retreat it and only had 3 squares to the mountain.

0 - Preturn:
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 longbow

lost: 2* longbow vs Enkidu. win: 2* longbow vs Enkidu.
1 - 560AD
Lagos: catapult->Sword
win: 4/4 sword vs 1/4longbow
2 vet swords + vet Enkidu joined in army.
win: army vs 3/4 longbow

lost: 2* longbow vs Enkidu + 1* sword
2 - 570AD
Ur: sword->sword
Der: sword->sword
Kutha: Enkidu->Enkidu
win: army vs 4/5 longbow
they dropped horse+longbow in bad location,
win: 2/4 sword vs 4/4 horse

Lost: longbow vs Enkidu and sword. Win: 2* longbow vs Enkidu. They unconnected our spices. (one source left).
3 - 580AD
2nd battle of Utrecht:
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 5/5 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 6/12 army vs 4/4 spear
win: 3/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 3/4 sword vs 1/4 longbow
Utrecht captured.
win: 3/4 sword vs 2/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 2/4 lonbbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/4 longbow
win: 5/5* sword vs 4/4 spear

Lost: crusader vs 3/3 Enkidu. win: 3/3 longbow vs 4/4 Enkidu (in town). I'm afraid of Hittites may sneak attack us.
4 - 590AD
Ur: Sword->Sword
Kisurra: Sword->sword
Marad: Sword->sword
Embassy for Byzantines for 66 gold. They are building Shakespeare's Theater in Constantinople. Slider 4/4/2. AI has finally learned to use lux slider :P
Win: 5/5 sword vs 2/4 crusader
win: 3/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
lost: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 2/4 spear
win: 3/4 sword vs 3/3 longbow and promote to elite

win: longbow vs 4/4 Enkidu on mountain.
5 - 600AD
Lagos riots.
Der: Sword->Enkidu
Braga: sword->Enkidu
Anshan: catapult->Enkidu
win: 12/12 army vs 3/3 spear
win: 10/12 army vs 4/4 longbow

lost: 3/3 longbow vs 4/4 Enkidu. Leiden lost.
6 - 610AD
Ur: sword->Sword
Sumer: sword->
Der: Enkidu->Enkidu
win: 11/13 army vs 3/3 longbow

win: longbow vs 5/5 Enkidu on mountain.
7 - 620AD
Lagos: Sword->Enkidu
Der: Enkidu->Sword
Marad: sword->sword
Braga: Enkidu->Enkidu
Kutha: Enkidu->Enkidu
win: 5/5 sword vs 4/4 spear
Don't know what Hittites is up to. I blocked road.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_620_blocked_v1.jpg

lost: 2* longbow vs Enkidu. Lost: Crusader vs sword. + one catapult.
8 - 630AD
Ur: Sword->Sword
Nagsu: catapult->Enkidu
Anshan: Enkidu->Enkidu
lost:4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
Battle of Rotterdam:
lost: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear
win: 5/5 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
lost: 4/4 sword vs 3/4 spear
win: 11/13 army vs 3/4 spear
win: 9/13 army vs 1/4 spear
Rotterdam captured
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 longbow
win: 4/4 Enkidu vs 3/3 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
lost: 3/5 sword vs 3/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
Ivory and horses connected

win: longbow vs sword on mountain. win: Crusader vs sword on mountain.
9 - 640AD
Sumer: Sword->Enkidu
Utrecht: Enkidu->Enkidu
Lagos: Enkidu->Enkidu
Braga: Enkidu->Enkidu
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
lost: 3/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 9/13 army vs 3/4 spear
win: 5/5* sword vs 4/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow

Hittites declared war on the Dutch.
10 - 650AD
WLTKD in Ur.
Ur: Sword->Sword
Sumer: Enkidu->Marketplace
Kisurra: sword->sword
Der: Sword->sword
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 spear and promote to Elite
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
Eindhoven captured
win: 4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/4 longbow

Embassy built on Mayans for 47 gold
WM trade with Hittites

We are doing quite well.
Lost: 9 Enkidus, 10 Swords and catapult. Killed: 30 longbows, 17 spears, 2 Crusader and horse.

It's possible to capture Amsterdam in next 10 turns cycle. If we don't capture all Dutch's cities soon we'll be surrounded by Hittites. Hittites's Knights will advance very fast. It going to be same situation as it were with Dutch.

the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-650ad.zip)

Excellent set of turns, Kuningas !!! :) I was really delighted to read your log. Glad to have you in the team, you seem to enjoy taking a desperate situation (well... almost !) to turn it into a winning campaign ! And kudos to Greebley for leading to this situation, with one leader as a nice gift !

Well, I don't have the map under my eyes now, but be sure I'll do my best to crush the Dutch ! I'm not so sad about this game anymore, even though there is still plenty to do ; thanks to the bugs (I suppose), the Byzantines seem to rocket through the Middle Ages...

Got it BTW.

Great work Kuningas! I was hoping you could do something with the position I had left you. :goodjob:

[Edit: I meant to say Krys], try to get Amsterdam if you can. If the Hittites get it, it would be bad. I do NOT want to fight the hittites before we catch up in tech. They seem strong.

Guys, I haven't played my turns, and this week is an exams week for me. :( Then I go on holiday until New Year roughly. So that means no Civ for me for at least 2 weeks.

I see no other solution than taking a break in this game until then. Of course I'd like to hear your point of view on this, and also if you're gonna be away for that period.

What saddens me is that when I come back, the new patch will probably be out (hey, that's good news, of course !!! :) ). So I don't know if this game will be able to continue. Anyway if there is enough interest in our struggle for land (in this game !) by lurkers or both of you, I won't mind no patching until this game is over. But maybe the new beta patch will allow to run this game, so...

Originally posted by kryszcztov
I see no other solution than taking a break in this game until then. Of course I'd like to hear your point of view on this, and also if you're gonna be away for that period.


I would had time to play. Well, I'm looking other SG then. This SG may stay open, so anybody could play 10 turns. I assume beta patch is compatible with original?

I think it very likely the patch will work. Even if it doesn't I would still like to still finish the game however.

I am ok with putting the game on hold until the new year. Post when you get back. I will keep an eye open for that post.

OK, this game is on hold until New Year (approximately : around 2 days before or after [party] ).

Try to see if this game can load with the beta patch. If yes, I suggest you patched as soon as possible !! ;) If no, then it's up to you. I won't play any game before this one is finished (and before I see if the beta patch is OK).

i have to say that i have been lurking this game, so yes there is interest from lurkers out there. keep up the good work!

i have to say that i have been lurking this game, so yes there is interest from lurkers out there. keep up the good work!

i have to say that i have been lurking this game, so yes there is interest from lurkers out there. keep up the good work!

i have to say that i have been lurking this game, so yes there is interest from lurkers out there. keep up the good work!

i have to say that i have been lurking this game, so yes there is interest from lurkers out there. keep up the good work!

Note: It is looking like I am going to be away between Christmas, to about the 5th or 6th of January. I may not be able to post immediately after New Years, but I will post when I am back (definitely by the 7th).

Hello, I'm back ! :) Been lurking a lot of what is said about the beta patch and stuff, and I must say I have a headache. 2 years this game has been out, and there are still debates about how the game should work (corruption... FP...), that's too much for me.

So : I'm gonna play my turns soon, still with C3C 1.00. Tell me (Greebley and Kuningas) if you want to continue this game and if you have the time. Then tell me if you want to continue it under 1.00 or 1.12 (the beta patch). My feelings tell me we should not beta patch for this game, because it would end into a nightmare regarding fixes. I won't play any other C3C games in the next weeks (January), at least until another update. I won't beta patch at all before that.

Expect the save in 2 days at most. :)

Welcome back. Let's finish this one.

I don't have the patch either. I'm staying at v.1.00.

I think we should finish as well. I am currently on vacation as I mentioned earlier. I will be back home on the 5th or 6th, so I may need a single skip. I have internet access, but not the game.

Can we expect the save soon? :)

I'm terribly sorry, folks. I have almost lost taste in playing this game, and more generally in playing Civ. Of course I'm pretty sure it's just temporary, but right now, because of Civ bugs and Internet problems, I don't feel like continuing playing. Firaxis's attitude doesn't help it of course, the beta patch doesn't appeal me either (as of now).

I know I will trash my SG rep :p but the heart isn't here anymore. Maybe both of you could finish the game ? I'd be happy to hear from you that the game is won someday, but don't feel you have to.

Sincere apologize.
krys

(Don't hope to freeze the game anymore for my hypothetical return, I have almost passed the point where the game was left untouched for too long.)

@kryszcztov. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you recover interest to Civ someday.

I'll play next 10 turns. It's near month from last save. Either with Greebley's help or alone I'll continue posting until it's finished.

Lurkers are welcome to join. Don't hesitate to post.

Sargon the King of the Akkad. He is the legacy of second dynasty of Sumerians. He was born in the choke point of two rivers Eufrat and Tigris. About 800 years ago. He started the war to unite Mesopotamia. Here is his story of last 100 years.
Sargon: "I'm getting old. I have conquered much land in past years. Many says, Sumerians are world's first imperium. I want to believe them. and I do after I have conquer rest of Lugalzaggis and Syria. Let me see the map." Advisor: "here, it's sir." Sargon: "Only few cities left and I have Mesopotamia. Those Gutilians are barbarians. Claims to be Hittites. For future we need strong defence against them."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_map.jpg

Sargon: "My fellow friend Krys have past away. He is a hero who sacrifised his life to safe ours. Heroic Epic must be built for his memory."
0-650AD: Ur ->Heroic Epic,

IT Lost: vet enkidu vs vet longbow, vet enkidu vs longbow. Byzantines are building Smith's Trading Company.
Sargon: "Blasphemy, Trading Company what's that? World is flat and there is only one continent."
1-660AD: Susa Worker ->Catapult, Marad Sword->Enkidu, Braga Enkidu->Enkidu, Kutha Worker->Enkidu, Anshan Enkidu ->Catapult.
Sargon: "My god, don't let Syrians to pillage our lands."
Rotterdam win: sword elite vs vet spear.
Utrecht mountain river win: elite sword vs vet longbow.
Holwerd: vet sword vs reg spear. Holwerd captured ->worker
win: vet sword vs vet spear.
win: vet sword vs vet longbow Eindhoven, vet sword vs reg longbow

IT lost: reg longbow vs vet sword
2-670AD: Lagos catapult ->sword, Marad Enkidu->sword, Rotterdam Crusader
lost: elite sword vs vet longbow Eindhoven

Sargon: "Abandon Holwerd. I don't want it to fall in enemy's hands. First Crusader, good let him announce God's word by swords."
Holwerd abandoded.

win: reg longbow vs vet Enkidu, 2x vet longbow vs elite sword (mountain) lost: reg longbow vs reg Enkidu.
3-680AD Der sword ->marketplace, Braga Enkidu ->Enkidu, Nagsu Settler ->Enkidu,
Maastricht: win: sword army vs reg spear, sword army vs reg spear.
Kua: win vet sword vs vet spear, win vet sword vs vet spear, win vet sword vs reg spear, win vet sword vs vet longbow. Kua captured ->worker.
win elite sword vs vet longbow.

IT win: vet longbow vs vet crusader.
4-690AD Sumer sword->Marketplace, Kisurra sword ->sword.
Sargon: "Here is picture that presents my blocking stragedies."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_moves.jpg

Sargon: "Treasure is near empty. Sell our tastefull spices and dyes. Can't accept gpt deals."
Incan: spices for 45 gold.Byzantines: Dyes for 32 gold.

IT Win: vet longbow vs elite sword mountain. lost: reg longbow vs vet spear.
5-700AD: Hague: catapult ->Enkidu, Marad sword ->Marketplace, Braga Enkidu ->library,
win: vet sword vs vet spear.

IT lost vet longbow vs elite sword.
6-710AD: win: elite sword vs vet longbow and GL appeared.
Sargon: "My daughter gives a birth. He's my grandson Naramsin and Great Leader."
lost: vet longbow vs vet sword. win:vet longbow vs elite sword. lost: vet longbow vs vet sword.
7-720AD: Kutha Enkidu->courthouse, Rotterdam: Crusader.
groningen: win: vet sword vs vet spear, lost: vet sword vs vet spear, win: elite sword vs vet spear. Groningen captured ->Enkidu.
Hages, win: sword army vs vet spear.
North part, win: vet sword vs vet longbow, win: vet sword vs reg longbow.

IT: lost: vet longbow vs vet Enkidu. (stupid award), Kua Flipped to Dutch.
Sargon: "Killed my spearmen, how stupid they can be. Now those annoyed Gutilians are running freely to their town."
8-730AD: Rotterdam Enkidu->Library, Kisurra sword->Courthouse.
Midsbourg: lost: vet Crusader vs vet spear, win: vet sword vs vet spear, lost: vet sword vs vet spear, lost: vet sword vs reg spear, lost: elite sword vs reg spear, win: vet sword vs reg spear, win: vet sword vs vet longbow, lost: vet sword vs vet longbow, win: vet Enkidu vs 1/4 spear. lost: vet Enkidu vs 2/4 longbow.

IT Hittites captured Maastricht
9-740AD: Utrecht enkidu ->Library
win: elite sword vs elite longbow Midsbourg captured->Enkidu.
Kua: lost: vet sword vs reg spear, win: vet sword vs reg spear, win: vet sword vs reg spear.
win: vet sword vs vet spear.

IT Lost: vet spear vs vet longbow. Hittites captured Kua.
10-750AD: The Hague Enkidu ->Library. Eindhoven Enkidu ->Library.
Babil founded ->library.

IT Lost: vet longbow vs vet sword.
11-760AD: Ur: Heroic Epic ->Library.
win: sword army vs elite longbow.


RIP Sargon. No one expected it, he was 900 years old when died. He ate an apple and choked to it's seeds. His last wishes was to make his grandson Naramsin to be the new king. Naramsin is too young to take resbonsibility of ruling Sumerians. Naramsin is growing up and meanwhile allows Greebley to take control.

I forgot the save. Will post it soon. I have to reboot and change OS to win XP.

If you want to continue this, I am game, Kuningas. I will play next when you post the save.

:lol: Very funny and very nice, Kuningas ! :) This makes me want to lurk the game now. I'm no hero but both of you surely will, this game will be hard to win.

Kuningas, you have good knowledge in Mesopotamia. In fact, I'm not out of Civ. Apart from a never-ending PBEM (PTW), I have no plan in playing Civ in the days/weeks to come, unless something good happens. But I'm back (again !) on working on my mod. This mod will include Sumerians of course, but I'm rather undecided about having Akkadians... They would start in Agade, a city that appears to have never been found, but it might be situated just right next to Babylon... the Babylonian capital, making them hard to coexist. :( And I'm undecided about having Sargon or Naram-Sin as an Akkadian leader. The former is more famous, but the latter ruled (well) at a better time.

Sorry again for my retirement, I'm a bit ashamed. Yesterday I opened the save so as to play my turns, but after 2 minutes I wasn't feeling like playing at all. :o Good luck ! ;) And don't hesitate to continue a bit of the story (a little is always some fun).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-760AD.SAV

Here it's Greebley. Play as many turns you want up to twenty.

Krys, Actually I got inspiration from my history book. ;)

Preturn: Use Leader to build an army and advance army.

IBT: Byzantine declare war on Mayans
Der: Market->Sword
Braga: Library->Courthouse

770 AD: Kill 3 spearmen in Amsterdam with the two armies in the area.
Rush a sword in Nagsu

IBT:
Nagsu:Sword->Enkidu
Inca are building smith's trading post

780 AD: We nearly lose our army attacking a spear. It had about 10 hp at start and got down to 1 hp with the spear having 2. I thought it was a goner.
Our 3 normal swordsmen win and we take the city! The great library is ours!

IBT: Byzantines demand wine. I give it to them.
Our new techs :D
Polytheism
Monarchy
Construction
Monotheism
Engineering
Theology
Chivalry
Invention
Printing Press
Education
Gunpowder
Banking
Astronomy
Chemistry
Democracy
Economics
Navigation

Ur: Library->Bank
Sumer: Market->Bank
Anshan: Library->Aquaduct

790 AD: I make peace with the Netherlands for all his cities other than the capitol (Leiden and Hubishna). Note that Hubishna is off our continent on an island. I am hoping the Hittites will be able to kill off the Netherlands.

Diplomacy:
Hittites have Music Theory and lack Banking and Chemistry.
Netherland lacks Economics and Democracy
Byzantines are have Music Theory, Physics, Metallurgy, and Free Artistry (and 2465 gold)
Incas have Music Theory
Mayans lack Banking and Chemestry

I am not going to bother getting Music Theory. I don't think we will be getting wonders.

It appears the Byzantines are gaining quite a bit from the gpt bug. I think it may be worth trying to get contries to fight them.

We have 2 Saltpeter and I am connecting one more.

Switch Der to a Bank
Switch Middelburg to a worker
Switch Kisurra to Aquaduct (in 1).

Lux at 20%, 1 scientist, +94 gold per turn.

I am going to take a small risk. I am going to get an ROP with the Hittites. The hope is that the sooner they take out Netherland, the less risk of flips.

Upgrade 3 Enkidu to Muskets

IBT:
Resistance ends in Amsterdam and it riots
Kisurra: Aquaduct->Market
Marad: Market->Bank

800 AD: Move armies northward.

IBT:
Hittites and Byzantines declare war on the Mayans and then the Netherlands

810 AD: Armies in the N near byzantines now. Don't want to disturb the Hittites killing the Dutch though.

IBT:
Lagos: Market->Courthouse
Kutallu: Courthouse->Aquaduct
Switch Bragu to an Aquaduct (missed it before).

820 AD: Mayans have gems now. Trade them iron for gems, worldmap, and gold (also to strengthen them vs the Byantines).
Upgrade some Enkidu

IBT: The Dutch are destroyed!

830 AD: Declare war on Byzantines. Ally with Hittites against the Byzantine. Trade Democracy for it and pick up Music Theory for "free".

Build a embassy with the Inca (Smith in 25). Ally Inca vs Byzantine (give them 2 luxuries to do it).

Capture Tatub with our armies (which take a good bit of damage).

Change Susa to a Caravel and rush it. We need to take that island out or risk another flip.

IBT: The Byzantines have Cavalry.
Susa: Caravel->Worker
Braga: Aquaduct->Market
Middleburg: Worker->Courthouse

Byzantines start Newtons.

840 AD:
Attack one of the 2 Cavalry. The other is on a mountain.

IBT: Byzantine Cavalry attacks a Sword and wins. It is then killed by the Hittites.
Machu Picchu completes Magellans voyage.

850 AD:
Load 2 sword on boats to attack island (still guarded by spear).

Rushed a Musket in Hubishna so it isn't totally defenseless.

IBT: Accidentally hit the return key. Not much happens.

860 AD: Will pass off without moving units.

Decide to research physics at full. That way we might be able to get to the industrial age with techs from Byzantine for peace.

Didn't check diplo this turn.

Notes:
Our military is poor and needs upgrading.

We are starting to build the necessary infrastructure to do well.

War with the Byzantines is to keep them from getting to far ahead. I think they got ahead and then "took advantage" of the gpt to skyrocket even further. I have broken all those deals, but they have Cavalry, and are at most 1 tech from industrial. We may want to keep them at war (though maybe they will offer enough tech to make peace worthwhile).

I am a bit rushed to finish so no story or pic.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-860AD.zip)

Well, I'am delighted to hear about all those free techs. :D I guess you're all feeling more comfortable now ! :)

I have a question, maybe someone has an answer : do nearby enemy cities increase the risk of a flip ? I'm thinking of those Byzantine cities you want to capture. Other than the tiles they may steal from our cities' radii, is the risk really increased ? Can't remember the exact formula.

Ya, they increase the chance of flip. In fact, the town I just took was ours once, but the influence of the island city caused it to flip to the Byzantines. There culture is 10x ours. Nasty.

So yes, taking all the Byzantine cities on our continent is very important.

After that, I think the Hittites, though we will need a much bigger army for that war. One nice thing is that the Hittites did not have Saltpeter last time I looked. If that remains the case, then no Cav or Muskets which would be cool.

18 techs :goodjob:

I thought to rush FP with GL. Maybe we get other chance later.

And this is my "got it".

I thought about using it for the FP, but there were a lot of Hittite units, so I decided that making sure we got Amsterdam was higher priority. I figured with 2 armies we were even more certain to get it than just 1. You are less likely to lose units with armies.

If the FP wasn't as weak as it is unpatched, I would have gone for that instead.

BTW, do we want to patch this game?

Originally posted by Greebley
BTW, do we want to patch this game?

My C3C is unpatched at the moment. So if you don't demand patch stick in v1.00 is fine.

Technical problems, floppy drive is broken
I have to transfer files from home computer (C3C installed) to work computer by disk. This because I don't have Internet connection on my computer. Could take a while to fix it.

Ok. Since there is only two of us, I think we can just pause the game until it gets fixed.

If your PC at home has Windows XP on it, there are these neat USB memory chips they have now. You just put it in the USB port and can access the files and it holds 128 meg. It is a very convenient way to transfer files and may be cheaper than repairing the floppy drive.

If your home machine is pre-windowsXP though, you need to download drivers which wouldn't help much.

I won't delay this SG any longer. Short summary.

Diplo screen. Hittites and Mayans are in war. We have 17 turns left of our MAs vs Byzantines.

We are 5th in score 1325, Inca leads 1900 points.

1 - 860AD
Some unit movements. I notice army won't fit in galley. Have to trust in old good swordmen.

IT lost: vet cavalry vs reg Enkidu.
2 - 870AD Crusader produced. Hittites have learned Chemistry.

IT Hittites captured Byzantine's last city in home continent.
3 - 880AD Ur: Bank ->Musketman. The Hague: Library ->Marketplace. Der: Bank ->Musketman.
Dyrrachium (in island): Trebuchet hits reg spear. Win: Vet Crusader vs reg spear. Win: Elite Sword vs reg spear. Dyrrachium captured ->Musketmen. Byzantine is in IA.

IT Pressing Shift to speed up unit animations.
4 - 890AD Kuara: Harbor ->Aqueduct. Anshan: Aqueduct ->Marketplace.

IT Dyrrachium flipped back to Byzantines. I had 3 swords and crusader in city. :(
5 - 900AD Sumer: Bank ->Musketman. Utrecht: Library ->Marketplace.

IT Maya and Hittites signed peace. Byzantines known where to strike. They landed knight+longbow next to Rotterdam.
6 - 910AD Lagos: Courthouse ->Bank. Kutallu: Aqueduct ->Marketplace. I rush settler in Susa for 92 gold. Enkidu upgrade in Rotterdam and in Amsterdam for 75 gold. Sword army arrives to Rotterdam.

IT Lost: vet longbow vs vet sword.
7 - 920AD Crusader produced. Ur: Musketman ->University. Susa: Settler ->Trebuchet. Der Musketman ->University.
Dyrrachium: win: vet MI vs reg spear. Win: vet sword vs 2/3 spear. Dyrrachium razed.
retreat: vet Crusader vs vet Knight. Win: vet Musket vs 1/4 longbow. Win: Army vs 1/4 Knight. I disband all regular Enkidus (4). Hittites know Metallurgy, Incans Metallurgy and Physics, Mayans lack banking.

8 - 930AD Kisurra: Marketplace ->Bank.

9 - 940AD Apisala founded in island.

IT Physics researched. Started on ToG.
10 - 950AD Eidhoven:Library ->Aqueduct.

There isn't any available trade options. Hittites got Physics in same turn as we did. Byzantines are furious, they won't give techs in PT.

Byzantines are paying high price for tech leading. They have 2-3 wonders constantly under construction. Their military size is small in home continent. Inca has decreased number of Byzantines cities from 9 to 5.

Banks and universities are near completed in core cities. You can start war preparations soon.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-950ad.zip

Good set of turns!

We have driven off the Byzantines from our continent and they are hurting. Hopefully, we can catch up in tech with them.

As you mention, I will start considering what we need to build for a war on the Hittites. That will be tricky as they are formidable.

I got it and should be able to play this weekend.

Preturn: Things look good.

IBT: Hittite movement
Marad: Bank->Musket

960 AD:
I might try an assault on an Byzantine island.
Upgrade to Muskets (mostly in towns near the Hittite troops.

IBT:
Sumer: Musket->Knight
Kutallu: Library->Market
Ur: University->Musket
Der: University->Knight

970 AD: Upgrade some muskets

IBT: Mostly the Hittites are leaving our lands. The isolated cities may have a goodly number of troops though.

980 AD: We have so many squares wasted (not being used). I am sorely tempted to settle cities in all the holes in our lands, though it will mean crowding later on.

IBT: Not much

990 AD: Two ships of troops are head ing toward the Byzantines

IBT:

1000 AD:

IBT:
Braga:Market->Courthouse

1010 AD:

IBT: Byzantine land a longbow on our island which the Hittites immediately kill.
Ur: Musket->Musket
Sumer:Knight->Knight
Der: Knight->Knight
Kutalla - Missed a riot.
Marad: Musket->Musket

1020 AD: Still don't have enough Muskets for every town. We are close to they Byzantine island (2 turns)

IBT:
Kutha: Courthouse->Market
Hittites start Newton's.

1030 AD: With the AI getting TOG, the number of turns drops to 1. Lower science to 0 and # of scientists to 1

IBT:
We finish TOG.
Lagos:Bank->Musket

1040 AD:
Drop off 4 Crusader, 1 MDI, 1 Musket next to a Byz city which turns out to be guarded by Spears
Turn off Science. I want to get the final two techs by purchase or in the peace treaty.

IBT:

1050 AD: Take Byzantine town with no loss.
Going to take one more turn to end the Byzantine war I think.

IBT:
Ur: Musket->Musket
Hague: Musket->Courthouse
Der:Knight->Knight
Hubishina: Walls->Harbor

1060 AD Take Byzantine town with no loss.
Peace:
Metallurgy+Magetism for peace + 125 gpt

Our Free tech is Steam Power

Trade Magnetism and 620 gold for Military Tradition with the Incas.

Notes:
The Byzantines have Medicine. I did not trade for it, so we still have Steam Power for ourselves. We need cash saved up if we do want to trade. We have 2 Coal

The Byzantines are very weak. They have 3 fishing villages left.

We got military tradition and Hittites do not yet have Saltpeter. They may get it when the Incas connect up their source.

Everybody is industrial now.

I think we may want to build workers so we can get rails up. Ur and Der are switched to workers (at max growth so can afford to spit off a worker).

I upgraded all but 1 knight to Cavalry (it was moving). We can also upgrade our Trebuchets. All but one Enkidu is upgraded.

Kuningas, I leave the decision on whether to turn on science to you.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1060AD.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1060AD.zip)

Good set. Getting us industrial. Byzantines are down to 2 cities :)

We may want to hurry toward Replaceable Parts.

The byzantines have 3 cities. It is hard to tell but they have a Secret City to the east of Mayan territory on the tiny island.

I always have troubles deciding between industrialization with factories, going for scientific method and TOE,n or Rep Parts.

pre turn
Techs are expensive. Start on Electricity with 1 scientist.
More luxuries is good to have. Inca: Spices and 5 gpt for furs.

1 - 1070AD Ur: Worker ->Cavalry, Utrecht: Marketplace ->Cavalry, Groningen: Library ->Musketman, Eindhoven: Aqueduct ->Barracks, Der: Worker ->Cavalry, Marad: Musket -> Musket.

2 - 1080AD Sumer: Cavalry ->Worker, Lagos: Musketman ->University.
Ended ROP with Hittites.

3 - 1090AD Sumer: Worker ->Cavalry, Anshan: Marketplace ->Harbor.
Byzantines have one city left, can't get Medicine. However they would buy Steam power for FA, 125 gpt and 430gold. I don't trade.

IT: Kutallu riots. Inca completed Smith's.
4 - 1100AD

Hittites completed Newton's.
5 - 1110AD Hittites have Nationalism.

6 - 1120AD Rotterdam: Library ->Worker, Kisurra: Bank ->Cavalry, Der: Cavalry ->cavalry, Marad: Musketman ->worker.

Hittites demands saltpeter. I decline: "Talk to the hand you won't scare me." waiting for what happens... And he declares war on us! How predicable. Lost: one corrupted city Babil, musketman and 3 workers. Island city Hubishna flipped to Hittites.
7 - 1130AD Ur: Cavalry ->Cavalry. Marad Worker ->cavalry. Braga: Courthouse ->Musketman. Tutub: Library ->Musketman.

Mayan: Physics for MA vs Hittites.
Inca: Wines and Dyes for MA vs Hittites. 2nd trade: Ivory for silks.

It's time to strike back:
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 4/4 rifle.
win: 4/4 sword vs 4/5 longbow.
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 1/4 knight

Cash rush some defenders. Hittites won't get saltpeter. Basically this is same situation as with Dutch. We slowly roll over aggressor with our superior units :)

8 - 1140AD Lagos: University ->Cavalry. Groningen: Musketman ->Musketman, Eindhoven: Barracks ->Cavalry, Kutallu: Marketplace ->Cavalry. Nagsu: Musketaman ->Cannon, Leiden: Musketman ->Cannon.

Lost: 4/4 MI vs 2/3 Rifle
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 1/3 rifle
win: 4/4 MI vs 4/4 longbow
Kua liberated ->Cannon.
win: 4/4 Crusader vs 3/3 longbow and promote.
win: 14/14 Crusader army vs 5/5 MI.
win: 14/14 sword army vs 3/3 PIke
win: 13/14 sword army vs 3/3 MI. hit points reduced to 6/14.
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 5/5 AC.
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 4/4 Knight.
lost: 4/4 cavalry vs 6/6 AC (on mountain). I didn't knew those where that hard.

IT: Hittites tried capture Kutallu in 6-7 fights.
9 - 1150AD Hague: Courthouse ->Cavalry, Sumer: Cavalry ->cavalry.
lost: 4/4 cavalry vs 3/3 pike (on town).
win: 3/4 cavalry vs 4/4 pike and promote.
win: 4/4 musket vs 2/4 MI.
win: 2/5 cavalry vs 1/6 AC.
win: 2/4 cavalry vs 1/5 AC.

IT: Mayans destroyed Byzantines. Would have got ~1500 gold but not Medicine for Steam power from Byz.
10 - 1160AD Utrecht: Cavalry ->Cavalry.
Win: 5/5 crusader vs 3/3 pike
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 3/3 pike
Maastrict captured.
win: 15/15 crusader army vs 4/4 rifle
win: 14/15 crusader army vs 4/4 rifle
Delft +4 workers captured ->Musketman.

Doesn't look good on western battle field.

IT: 5 lost in Kutallu (all were redlined in last turn) and Hittites razed the city. This caused many riots in cities.
11 - 1170AD Ur: Musketman ->Musketman
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 4/4 MI
win: 4/4 cavalry vs 4/5 Knight
win: 14/14 sword army vs 4/4 MI.

bad news:
I should have rushed more units.
We are losing more cities in west.
Stuck in 20 turns Military Alliances. (15 turns left).

good news:
2000 gold in treasure.
We get ex-Dutch cities in North and South back.
Hittites haven't saltpeter and probably won't get it due MAs.

Solutions
Rush one unit/turn in cities those are in danger.
complete railroad system.

1170AD Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1060ad.zip)

Kuningas,
I think you grabbed the wrong save. The link is to 1060 AD and I don't see a 1170 AD zip in the list of files.

You are right. Here is correct save.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1170ad.zip

Ok, I got it and will play tomorrow or the next day.

I think I would like to move to version 1.13. I know we will both have it on our machines to play JB2, and the bugs in game (especially the gpt doubling bug) are really serious. Plus it would be nice to be able to have a working FP.

Is it ok if I play with version 1.13? I do still have a copy with 1.00 if it is not.

[Edit: One further thing - the Mayans and Hittites were not at war anymore? Or so it appeared when I loaded the save. I am thinking of re-allying with them. What do you think?]

1.13 that's it. or even 1.15?

They must have broke our MA pact. I didn't get notice for it. Feel free to re-ally. If they play drastic so do we.

Preturn: Upgraded to 1.15
Hmm, I was wrong previously. Mayans ARE still fighting the Hittites.

Hurry a bunch of units (and a harbor in Apisala). I spent about 1300

IBT: Troop movement and minor pillaging by the Hittites.
The Hague: Cav->Cav
Sumer: Cav->Cav
Lagos: Cav->Cav
Kisurra: Cav->Cav
Eindhoven: Musket->Musket
Marad: Cav->Cav
Braga: Cav->Cannon
Anshan: Cav->Cav
Apisala riots but also builds its harbor and is now happy.

One stack is 12 offensive units(Longbow and MDI) and 11 pikes

1180 AD: We win all the battles and kill about 6-8 pikes mostly. I also use our army to attack a Hittite town to the north. Rush 2 more Cav to handle the large numbers of units. They are tough enough to injure me and so need to heal.

IBT: They take Apilasala. The MDI knocked the Musket to 1 hp and the pike then attacked and won.
Ur: Cav->Cav
Utrecht: Cav->Cav
Rotterdam: Worker->Worker
Miss the fact that Eindhoven is unhappy.
The Incas have captured one of the northern towns.

1190 AD: Lose 2 units in the attack this time. Rush a very few more. Lagos will be attacked I think. I think it can hold.

IBT: Our units do poorly, the 3 fortified muskets in a size 12 city loses more than they win vs MDI. We hold the city but lose several units including 2-3 cavalry. Fortunately the Hittites do not attack with the entire stack.
Der: Cav->Cav
Kutha: Market->Musket
Tutub:Musket->Musket

1200 AD: Lose a Cav on attack. Mostly I defend.

IBT: We do ok though we are really getting pillaged up north. Apilasala is now Mayan
Sumer: Cav->Cav
Lagos: Musket->Musket
Marad: Cav->Cav

1210 AD: Lose yet another Cav to a pike and two retreats (these are full health cav on flat). Also many of our units are getting badly injured. Fortunately, it is Cav vs Pike or we would be getting slaughtered instead of badly injured with a few death.

Rail now can get units across our lands.
Lagos is really suffering due to pillaged squares.

War weariness jumps to max level for republic. Lux to 30% to compensate

IBT:
Maya and Hittites sign peace
Ur: Musket->Cav
Der: Musket->Cav
The Hague: Cav->Musket

1220 AD: Give the Mayans Magnetism for peace. I really don't want them getting their hands on Saltpeter. The Hittite offensive is running low. We may be able to attack back soon.

Change Marad to a settler so the Incas do not claim a Saltpeter of ours

More rushing where I can.

IBT: A few more units come to our borders.
Rotterdam: Worker->Worker
Kisurra: Cav->Cav

1230 AD: Capture Breda to the north. It is a bit risky for our army, but if we don't capture it this turn, the Incas will. The AI assault code is definitely improved BTW. They actually brought a decent sized force to take the city. They may have even filled a transport rather than sending one unit! I am glad they fixed that if that is what happened.

We have 11 Cavalry now. Only two units in our land. The first rifle intruder is on its way. Fortunately the Hittites did not have them soon enough for the initial assault. It would have been ugly.

IBT: Minor intrusions
Marad:Settler->Cavalry
Anshan: Cavalry->Cavalry

1240 AD: Build Dabrum near the N saltpeter. Bombard an intruding rifle. Lose another cavalry to a stupid pike and one to the injured rifle. I rush some more.

IBT: MDI defeats a fortified full health musket on a hill :rolleyes:

Ur: Cavalry->Cavalry
Sumer: Cavalry->Cavalry
Utrecht: Cavalry->Cavalry
Braga: Cannon->Cannon

1250 AD:

I put the 10 healthy Cav in Der with the cannon we currently own all which still have full movement points. The two sword/crusader armies are healing in towns, and our 3 injured cavalry are in Lagos(all at one hp). For the first time there are no enemy troops in our land. These turns took a bit longer than usual, and this seems like a good place to stop as it is late and I need sleep.

Kuningas, I am hoping we can go on the offensive and do damage to the Hittites now. I really hope you have better luck on the RNG than I. It was annoying. We only have 2 elite cav. Good luck.

I definitely think we can win this one now. Wasn't so sure early on.

Here is a picture of the pillaging they managed before I could stem the tide. Lagos was almost completely seperated from our road network. FOrtunately, I had enough units to keep the eastern squares intact (almost every square had an enemy unit it at one time or other). It was not as bad as I initially feared it would be:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1250AD.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1250AD.zip)

Our situation is certainly better then it was after my turns.

Got it, I play/post results on friday.

It may be hard to make progress as we don't have a lot of cannon and the towns are guarded by riflemen. Hopefully, it won't be a lot of rifles yet.

It would be really nice to get sufficient lands to get a second core up and running to the west and to trim the Hittites down in size as they have a scary number of cities at the moment.

[EDIT: Kuningus, I am going to be gone the weekend. I can probably play Monday (which I have off from work).

0 - pre turn
Cannon and cavalry stacks moved next to Rio Janeiro. (7 cannons, 9 Cavalries and 2 muskets)
We have 7 luxs. 4 own and 3 imports. Furs end in 1 turn, Silks in 8 and Maya continues shipping gems for iron. Some cities without marketplace runs in high WW. MM those cities to product workers and marketplaces.

1 - 1255AD Der: Cavalry ->same
Rio Janeiro: Lost none, killed 2 reg rifles, pikeman and longbow. RJ is captured.

IT Musket in forest defeats one rifle and dies to other. Cuello (in island) flipped to Mayan.
2 - 1260AD Kutha: Musket ->Cavalry, Middlebourg: Marketplace ->Courthouse.
Lost 1 cavalry and killed 2 rifles, pike, MI.

IT: lost 2 muskets and killed MI.
3 - 1265AD Lagos: Musket ->Musket
Sagres: Cannons bombard Sagres. Armies kills 2 rifle and cavalry one in Sagres. Sagres captured.
Faro: Faro is guarded by two pikes. Lost one cavalry then 2 cavalries kills pikes. Faro captured.

IT Inca renews Furs for spices and 6 gpt. lost musket and defeated longbow.
4 - 1270AD Ur: Cavalry ->Cavalry

5 - 1275AD Sumer: Cavalry ->Cavalry, Der: Cavalry ->Cavalry. Tutub: Worker ->Galleon.
Evora: lost cavalry killed 2 rifles and longbow. Evora captured.

6 - 1280AD the Hague: Musket ->Musket, Marad: Cavalry ->Cavalry.

7 - 1285AD Utrecht: Cavalry ->Cavalry. Kisurra: Cavalry ->Cavalry. Susa: Cannon ->Harbor, Braga: Cannon ->Musket.
Emerita: Cannons bombard. lost one cavalry and killed 5 rifles. Emerita razed.

8 - 1290AD Ur: cavalry ->Cavalry.
Lost cavalry and killed pike in grass.
Hittites have Steam Power.

IT Inca renews silks for Ivory and 6 gpt. Hittites killed 3 muskets and 3 cavalries in Rio Janeiro and captured it. Indeed improved AI. I haven't fortifield bonus on Muskets.
9 - 1295AD
RJ: Cavalry kills rifle. RJ recaptured.
Lost cavalry, 2 retreated killed 2 rifles, MI, 4 longbows. Hittites stack in next to RJ is destroyed.
Lagash founded in ruins of Emerita.

10 - 1300AD Sumer: Cavalry ->cavalry. Kutha: Cavalry ->Cavalry.

Notes:

I was lazy on last turn. :blush:

I captured 5 cities and military is more larger in opposite Hittites are weaker. :hammer:

I got Great Leader. It should be time for the FP. I'm not sure what's the best place for it. In 1.15b it really doesn't matter where the FP is. but this game is started with v1.0.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1300ad.jpg

1300AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1300ad.zip)

Five cities! Nice. I got it and will continue the offensive.

Preturn: Check out the empire to orient my self. Very minor changes (like peeling off a worker from a size 12 town).

IBT: A few rifles advance

1305 AD: I send a force toward guimaraes

IBT: Hittites and Mayans form peace

1310 AD: Capture Guimaraes and take out a stack of rifles using cannon and cavalry

IBT: Delft deposes our rule

1315 AD: Healing. Send some units to Delft

IBT: Minimal movement

1320 AD: Delft taken. I also take Lisbon, but it is very expensive in terms of Cavalry.

IBT: A few rifles advance

1325 AD: Attack Coimbra our full health sword army loses! doing only a single hit point to a rifle in a size 5 city.

IBT: Guimaraes starving tactic does not keep it from flipping. Lose a few units.

1330 AD: Raze Guimaraes this time.

IBT: Hittites show up with Cavalry (traded with Mayans).

1335 AD: Capture Oporto.

IBT: Inca forces are destroyed [Edit: I mean the ones that were in our lands attacking the Hittites]. 2 more Hittite Cavalry attack and retreat.

1340 AD: Build Kish on front line

IBT: A few more forces show up.

1345 AD: Build Umma and rush FP. It is near the front line, but I think I have waited long enough.

IBT: Attacks on Umma - lose 2 muskets to Cav

1350 AD: Clear out Hittite troops on the border.

Notes:

I don't know if Umma was a good place to build the FP. I was hoping to build up cities in that area though.

We may want to end the war with the Hittites. We can do this at any time. I wasn't sure whether we wanted to advance more or not. I made some progress but it cost in terms of units (both Muskets and Cav). The flip got about 4 muskets and I leave you with 2 less cavalry than on your previous turn. War wearinesss is also huge.

Our new border with the Hittites:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1350AD.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1350AD.zip)

ok, got it.
I consider the peace option.
Electricity gambit is near end and may be succesful. tech pace has been slow.

0 - pre turn
Checking Military advisor screen. I was right Hittites - Fascism, Inca - Communism, Maya - Democracy. I want at least Nationalism in PT. We can get the optional goverment techs.
Lux rate 30%->20%

IT Muskets in Kish kill 2 attacking cavalry, one retreated and we lost 1 musket. Incas are building Universal Suffrage.

1 - 1355AD
Kish: Walls ->Library
Sumer: Musket ->Cavalry
Dabrum: Library ->cannon.

elite cavalry kills Hittites cavalry on plains 1 hp left.
reg cavalry kills Hittites cavalry on plains no scratch.

Cannon stack one tile closer to Harran.

2 - 1360AD
Der: Cavalry ->Cavalry
elite cavalry kills vet cavalry on mountain and GL "Enmerkar" appeared.
cannons + cavalries killed two rifles on plains.

Enmerkar formed army. 3 vet cavalries joined gladly.

IT Hittites cavalry kills one musket in Umma.

3 - 1365AD
Ur: Cavalry ->Cavalry
Utrecht: Courthouse ->Cavalry
Sagres: Musket ->library

IT Inca needs Dyes and 20gpt to continue shipping Furs. Hittites kill our 2 undefended cavalries on plain.

4 - 1370AD
Amsterdam: Settler ->courthouse
Umma: Walls ->Library
Kisurra: Cavalry ->Cavalry
Marad: Cavalry ->Cavalry

Inca's city Babil on our continent starts to get some culture pressure.

Harran: Cannons fire, yellowlining one rifle and 2 rifles get 1 hit.
Cavalry army wins its first battle killing one rifle.
Attacks second time and wins again +gain promote.
elite cavalry dies when it attacks yellow rifle.
elite cavalry kills the yellow rifle.
New governor installed in Harran

IT Hittites kill one cavalry + musket

5 - 1375AD
Sumer: Cavalry ->Cavalry

IT Crusader bravely kills one rifle. Longbow kills wounded crusader.

6 - 1380AD
Lagos: Cavalry ->Cavalry
Der: Cavalry ->cavalry

Ugarit: half of the Cannons fire, yellowlining 2 rifles.
elite cavalry kill wounded rifle
elite cavalry kill wounded rifle
New governor installed in Ugarit

Cavalry army kill 2 rifles and cavalry.

IT Maya offers MP. I refuse. Inca completed US.

7 - 1385AD
Ur: cavalry ->Cavalry
The Hague: Musket ->Musket

Tarsus: no cannon backfire.
vet cavalry retreats but does 2 hit damage to vet rifle
vet cavalry kill vet rifle on 12 size city and promotes!
crusader army narrowly killed reg rifle
elite cavalry kill wounded rifle
vet cavalry kill vet longbow
Tarsus razed.

Bad Tibira founded. Damn I had in mind to place it one tile SE.

IT Cavalry on mountain defeats longbow

8 - 1390AD
Utrecht: Cavalry ->Cavalry

IT Hittites and Incas signed peace. Inca continues shipping Silks for Wines and 22gpt.

9 - 1395AD
Kua: Cannon ->Settler
Marad: Cavalry ->cavalry
Rio Janeiro: Library ->Market
Leiden: cannon ->Cannon
Tutub: Settler ->Galleon

Hattusas: cannons fire.
Cavalry army kill rifle and second.
vet cavalry kills rifle
vet cavalry kills rifle. Is RNG on our side.
New governor installed in Hattusas. SoZ and Oracle has tourist attraction so I didn't raze the city. This is surtain city to become culturally flipped.

10 - 1400AD
Ur: cavalry ->cavalry
Sumer: cavalry ->cavalry
Umma: library ->barracks
Sagres: Library ->Musket
Der: cavalry ->cavalry

Agade founded
The halfway of turns has reached

learn Electricity
11 - 1405AD
Kisurra: cavalry ->cavalry
Braga: cavalry ->cavalry

Notes:
I played 10 turns, I haven't moved units in 1405AD. Tyrana can be captured in this turn.

I forgot to starve Oporto. It has 2 Hittites pop.

I suggest that you research Replaceable Parts or Medicine->SM to get ToE.
ToE prebuild must be started now. We have good chances to get it. AI randomly research Scientific Methods. (may have changed in C3C)

Hittites would give Industrialization in PT. I left the trade options to you.
Inca has Medicine, Indust, Nationalism (+ optional techs) lack Electricity.
Hittites has Nationalism, Indust (+ optional techs) lack Electricity.
Maya has Nationalism, Indust (+ optional techs) lack Electricity.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03_1405ad.jpg

1405AD - save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03_1405ad.zip)

We are making good progress against the Hittites! I got it and may at least start it tonight. Not sure if I will finish.

The link didn't quite work - but I found the file in the Uploads directory, so I am all set (a - vs a _)

Preturn: Attack and capture Tyrana
Trade Electricity + 2560 gold for Industrialization + Medicine.
Trade Electricity + Medicine for Nationalism

Incas have Corporation, Communism, and Fascism
Mayans have Communism
Hittites have Communism and Fascism, but lack Medicine and Electricity.

I rush a factory in Ur - Scientific Method in 9.

1410 AD:
Attack and Capture Hattusha. Get a Great Leader. Build an army with it.
Sci Meth in 8, Pentagon (to be switched to TOE) in 9 - Total turns should be 12 or 13.

IBT: Longbow attacks and loses vs a Musket

1415 AD: Move on next town.

IBT: Lose 2 Lux when the Incas declare war on us. Leiden is taken.

Ur riots. Cycle ahead to adjust all towns.

1420 AD: Take back Leiden and take Babil. Mil Ally Mayans vs Inca. If we get bombarded to death, then that was a mistake.

1425 AD: Attack and take Allepo. I would like to capture my whole continent. I think I will continue the attack.

1430 AD: Attack Sao Paulo and Alacar and take both. No Hittites on the continent anymore.

Make peace with the Hittites (and hope for no city flips). I take everything I can especially the size 1 city.

Abandon Babil as Incas have high Culture.

1435 AD:
Build Erech where Babil was. Capture Luanda from the Incas. We now have to continent to ourselves!

Keeping Hubishina seems hard so I just abandon it.

IBT: Some Incan Cavalry are dropped off on our continent.

1440 AD: Bombard the Incan boats and kill the Cavalry.

1445 AD: Get Scientific Method and switch Ur over to TOE. Research Communism for police stations and because it is the one tech I can get before TOE completes.

1450 AD: Just waiting for TOE. Note that Communism has been MM'd to 4 turns by making scientists. If it doesn't complete 1 turn before we get TOE (5 turns in Ur), then add scientists until it does (It should only need a few).

Notes:

We may want to consider a prebuild for Hoover.

Once we get Communism, police stations are said to be useful. Haven't played around much with them though.

Our core and the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1450AD.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1450AD.zip)

Well done.

I try to play tonight.

0 - 1455AD Inherited
Everything looks fine. My turns may be fast, I don't have to move units. I don't know if it's necessarily to go after Incas island cities. They have huge amount of culture I may raze few their cities if I get opportunity.

1 - 1460AD
Sumer: factory ->Pentagon
Umma: Aqueduct ->marketplace

2 - 1465AD
Lisbon: Library ->galleon

3 - 1470AD
learn Communism start on AT at science 0%

landed some units to island with 2 Incas cities. Worker captured.

4 - 1475AD
Ur: ToE ->Hydro plant
ToE free techs: AT and Electronics.

I accidentally drafted one citizen in Der.
Inca have Replaceable parts.

Research Radio.

5 - 1480AD
Kua: Settler ->Aqueduct
Marad: Library ->University

Kadesh: elite cavalry win vs vet infantry.
vet cavalry retreat vs vet infantry.
vet cavalry retreat vs vet infantry.
vet cavalry kill vs vet infantry.
elite cavalry win vs vet cavalry.
Kadesh razed.

6 - 1485AD
Bad-tibira: courthouse ->marketplace
Kish: aqueduct ->marketplace

Adena: cavalry army kill vs reg rifle

rush hydro plant in Ur.

7 - 1490AD
Ur: Hydro plant ->Hoover Dam
Utrecht: factory ->University
Kuara: Marketplace ->aqueduct

Adana: cavalry army kill vs reg rifle
Adana and Newton's University captured.

Peace treaty and Atomic Theory to Incas for PT, 105gold, Espionage and Replaceable Parts. It's getting hard to capture cities with infantry defenders.
SM and RP to Maya for Fascism. To help them fight against Inca.

IT Maya expires our gem deal. I continue it by offering Rubber and Iron.

8 - 1495AD
Coimbra: library ->Harbor

Isin founded

change Pentagon to Intelligency Agency in Sumer.

9 - 1500AD
Marad: University ->Pentagon

Notes:
Big threat in air. 1455AD Inca had 48800 culture points. 1500AD - 54500 points. More than 600 cpt. Estimated time for Inca's culture win in 70-80 turns.:eek: Maybe we have to declare war again...

1500AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1500ad.zip)

I had noticed they had a high culture, but not that it was growing that fast. Perhaps we can attack them when we get Tanks?

I got it and will try to decide what I think we should do about the Incas.

Preturn:
Maya will offer 29 gpt for Espionage (plus small change). I decide to take it.
Can't do anything about Incas as we have a peace treaty. Will instead work on infrastructure, so we can get to tanks faster (I hppe)

IBT:

1505 AD: Set a whole bunch of units to civil engineers to build up shields faster in corrupt towns. Pretty massive improvements in the times to finish.

IBT:
Complete the Military Academy

1510 AD: More adjustment of towns and civil engineers.

IBT:

1515 AD: Adjustments

IBT:
Build intelligence agency.

1520 AD: Try to plant spy in the Inca lands but it is caught and they declare war. I guess that answers the "wait 18 turns for peace" problem.

Lower science to upgrade our cannon so I can have artillery.

1525 AD: Spy is again caught.

1530 AD: Spy is caught a third time. Got enough artillery for now. Speed science up again.

1540 AD: Finally plant spy. Incans have 136 infantry! (only 24 Cavalry) Culture check: 59232 culture.
1545 AD: Culture check 59827 = 595 culture per turn. At that rate they will have 100,000 culture in 68 turns.
1550 AD: The Incans have been very quiet. For culture assuming they improve their rate of culture they will still probably take 60 turns. That means their victory could happen as early as 1790 AD, with 1800 AD being more likely.

Notes:
Hoover finishes next turn.

Radio is also almost finished.

It looked like the saves version that you gave me was different than mine - a version 1.13 save. I am playing with 1.15 Check your version number when you start up.

I started military builds. Perhaps we can use artillery and armies to take the Incan islands? Or get a foothold on their continent? In any case we also need boats. When hoover finishes, I would play with the builds to get things prepped for war.

If we can research sanitation quickly, I would do so. Given how spread out our core is, we need size 20 cities. After that we want Tanks and Air I think.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1550AD.zip)

Civil engineers and police forces. :goodjob: I didn't remember those.

I checked it and I run earlier beta. Can't get the patch now as I need to burn it in CD. Carring patch on floppy disks is difficult.

I'm of the town from 23.1 to 25.1. I can post my save on 26.1.

I think JB2 is 1.15. Does that mean you plan to update?

Alternatively, we can run different versions or I can create a 1.13 version for this game. Note that corruption is higher in 1.13. When I got the game, I clicked on all cities and gained about 27 gpt. The civil engineers are adjusted for 1.15. You will find that some are silly in 1.13 - specifically, ones near the forbidden palace (other than the FP itself) are corrupt for me but not for you.

That is the major difference between the two versions. We only get one core in 1.15 (the FP increases the size of the core).

No prob on waiting until the 26th. Turns are almost too short with only 2 people.

[Edit: If you can't get 1.15, then go ahead and use 1.13. Just make sure you readjust all the towns. Clicking on each seemd to set the towns to the 1.15 values when I went from your 1.13 save to 1.15.

I think we have been alternating for a few turns now and it hasn't hurt anything.

pre turn
Haven't patched yet. I try to get it in next time.

IT: Inca offers PT. Without tanks we won't make much progress. PT for PT and 140gp.
1-1555AD
Hoover Dam completed.
build orders.

IT Privateer destroys galleon. Learn Radio.
2-1560AD
Pentagon completed.

Radio to Inca for The Corporation and 1410gp.
Inca has Refining. set research to Steel.

3-1565AD
build orders.

4-1570AD
build orders.

5-1575AD
build orders.

6-1580AD
build orders.

7-1585AD
war declared to Hittites.

IT Never have seen so bad unhappiness in Republic. One city flipped to Hittites.
8-1590AD
Ugarit recaptured.
one 1/3 rifle left in Hittites capital.

IT lost one Galleon to Privateer.
9-1595AD
Hittites destroyed.
I had to hire several clowns in IBT.

IT Inca and Maya signed PT.
10-1600AD

--------------------
Short war vs Hittites messed all the special citizens and I was too lazy to reorder them.

We need to start razing Incas cities. They have 67000 culture bynow. I was too passive not building galleons or artillery.


The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1600ad.zip)

Ok, I got it. Not yet sure which day I will play this. I am up in more than one game.

I will see what we can do about Inca, though that may be just rushing toward tanks as fast as possible

Preturn: I MM the save to update to 1.15. I do see one bug from switching back and forth from 1.13 to 1.15. The settle dates of some towns are really weird. They say Dec. Dec. Dec. writing across the screen. Switch a few towns to Artillery. Our coastal towns are pretty miserable. I rush-finish the two best towns so we can start galleons.

IBT:

1605 AD: Research time to steel plummets. Sure enough the Incas have it. I decide to go for Sanitation in the hopes to trade for refining discount (will get it in 5 which is faster than refining)

IBT:

1610 AD: Shave a turn off of Sanitation. Will get it in 3 now.

1615 AD: Quiet turn.

1620 AD: Quiet turn.

IBT: Get Sanitation

1625 AD: Switch several towns to hospital. Nope -no trade

1630 AD: And now the Incas have Sanitation as well. I go full research on Refining

1640 AD - 1650 AD: I build up a force to take out the Incan Islands. Mayans and Incans are at war again.

Notes:
We are 2-3 turns from refining. Once we get it, if the Incans have the next tech (and they probably will) maybe we should try to steal it. We have a spy planted already. I would go for "safe steal".

I have an attack force near the islands. A boat with a cav army and 3 boats with Artillery, and infantry. We may want to declare war while the Incans are busy. Hopefully the Artillery will be of some use.

Oh I forgot to start Battlefield Medicine! We got the message about it this last turn.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1650AD.zip)

I considered tech stealing in my turns. getting Combustion would be nice.

got it. No guarantees when I play my turns.

Sounds good. I agree on a looser time schedule with just two of us. Otherwise, the game can become burdensome.

It is going to be a tight finish with us rushing to Tanks and the Incans rushing to the culture win.

I think for our main tank war we are going to want to go for the Incan core first as those cities will be generating the most culture. They had over 160 Infantry too when I last looked, though the Mayan war may have lowered it slightly.

[Edit: It might also be worth getting flight first, if we don't mind using bombers. They seem so strong now as to seem exploitive so I am of two mind on this. It also solves our problems of transport to the other continent]

Kuningus,
I thought I would post and see what your plans were on this and whether you would have a chance to play this week. If you would like, I could go ahead and take another 10 turns, if things are very busy right now.

You are on right track. Play the next ten turns and I play my in the end of the week. I'm not sure if we have time for the Flight. Tanks are less complicated strategy. Go them first.

Your getting towards tanks and most of my personal games get to tanks so I really enjoy that. I haven't looked at your save since Middle ages but I dropped in to check. I have played with Greebley in AW and I amsure I can handle this.
Of course if you are tied to doing this yourselves I understand. I just felt some burnout in prior posts and wanted to help out.

Thanks on the offer barbslinger.

You have proofed your skills.

roster proposition:
barbslinger - up
Kuningas - on deck
Greebley

Greebley your call to add or not barbslinger to roster.

I think it great you want to join Barbslinger. 2 people is just too few.

Agree with your order Kuningus. Go ahead and play, Barbslinger

To sumerize:

Incas has incredible culture and will win in around 1800 AD. We need bombers and Tanks ASAP to stop them. We were going to try a tech steal after the current research is finished.

Got it and will review tonight. Tank warfare. : licking chops:
Incan culture? What the heck is that?

I just got a feel for things but have to get up early to fix a gate my dog busted. Will continue tomorrow.

Preturn – I take it from the posts we are delaying the war with the Incans until MT. I agree the primary strike on core cities culture should be then. I think looking over the save, this is initial however, we should plan a strike on their group of islands not on their continent as a diversion prior to tanks. Looking for a place to put battlefield medicine. Sagres gets the nod for 2 reasons. It isn’t doing 45spt for an infantry in 2 turns and it is in a growth period that will get B-med in less than the current 10. Looking at other cities less than 45spt for MM’ing and see that there is a lot of irrigated grassland. This needs to be retiled in cities under 45-50spt. It doesn’t look like the FP in Umma is doing any good for the surrounding core shield output. :confused: I just got an eror I got before on games started at a lower revision. When I try to click a scientist over to the next type of citizen the game just drops off the screen. I had this happen in another game and I have to remember to click the center square when switching one over. Also save often in case I forget. Anyhow, there are a gang of workers in the mountains of Zabalam that would probably be better served retiling around Sagres, The Hauge and Ur to get them over 50spt in preparation for tanks. As the workers finish retiling will begin. Eindhoven goes to harbor in preparation for battleship production. Bad-tiberia is building a factory for a city that does 4spt? Perhaps a hospital for a cash generator. It wastes 39 sheilds. I just figured out why my game was crashing. I had loaded the smallhead file from PTW into my conquests and if I would try to go to civil engineer it wouldn’t have the artwork and would crash. I need those popups for the F1 screen though. Hold on. 5 minutes later I have ones with little smilies and nationality flags. OK, Oporto is the same deal. Lisbon is factory in one with one more CE so we’ll see how it works out with retiling. All my screwing around with CE’s put refining at 3 turns so back in I go. Diplomacy is really a non issue right now. No trades with Inca and Maya have nothing to give us. F1 looks cool. Lets see what’s shaking.

IT – Inca look to be attacking Maya in NE. They sail 3 frigs and a galleon close by. Builds come in. No riots.

[1] 1655AD – Retile Lagos to over 60 if needed but it’s not yet.

Questions- We're you planning on rolling the attack now? If so look at this just on the island the cav army was going to land into.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys_1655.jpg

Also, the Incan culture is immense but we won't have tanks for a good 20 turns which is a while. Why do we want to go after the little outer cities which may only have a temple and maybe a library. I propose hitting them on the jetty between Constantinople and Sardica with something more than what is in the galleons. The islands are not going to slow the culture machine down I fear and will only cost troops. I think we need to pump infrastructure and infantry/artillary builds to prepare for a bigger invasion that gets to what is most likely his FP core. Those are large cities with Constantinople having a load of wonders. It is the crown jewel in thier wonder city collection. Razing that and a couple others will help the most.
I am leery of attacking cities I feel are worthless unless that is the intention. I'll finish tomorrow.

I need to know the stategy here. Are we going to war now or later?

We start war soon, but not yet. Somewhere between my and Greebley's turns. Those few galleys are there to hit island cities when our main forces land to their continent.

In version 1.15 the FP does not improve surrounding cities.

We have mixed playing in 1.15 and 1.13, which may have been bad for the save. I do know I saw messed up city founding dates.

I would play 1.15. Did you have a chance to upgrade Kuningas? I was assuming yes since you play JB2.

The galleys are there in part because it looked like the Incans were coming in for an attack. Since we weren't ready for the main war, the idea was that if they attacked, we would at least take the islands and get peace asap. That war never materialized. We will be in the same situation if we Tech steal and fail. I am not sure how much culture the islands create (it might be worth examining a sample city). If small, taking the islands could be a waste, but they have owned some of those cities a long time.

I am not really sure what the best strategy is, so my suggestion is to go ahead and decide how you want to do things and post that in your report.

Feel free to change silly factory builds. Since we flipped from 1.13 to 1.15, the amount of shields in a town has been inconsistant. I would go through towns and click on them to get them to the 1.15 version.

One thought I had. Do we want to switch to 5 turns per player once the war starts? Modern war turns are long and since we want the war to be short, it will make sure everyone gets a chance to participate and make suggestions.

I'll complete my 10 tonight and then when it becomes war time 5 per man sounds good. I will probably going for the steal of combustion during my turns. We make 600+gpt with sci-sli at 0%. So it should take 5-6 turns per steal. I will weigh the option of researching just to see which is more cost effective.
I think some city investigations to get a bead on culture would probably be advisable too.

KRYS3-1650-1700AD
Preturn – I take it from the posts we are delaying the war with the Incans until MT. I agree the primary strike on core cities culture should be then. I think looking over the save, this is initial however, we should plan a strike on their group of islands not on their continent as a diversion prior to tanks. Looking for a place to put battlefield medicine. Sagres gets the nod for 2 reasons. It isn’t doing 45spt for an infantry in 2 turns and it is in a growth period that will get B-med in less than the current 10. Looking at other cities less than 45spt for MM’ing and see that there is a lot of irrigated grassland. This needs to be retiled in cities under 45-50spt. It doesn’t look like the FP in Umma is doing any good for the surrounding core shield output. :confused: I just got an eror I got before on games started at a lower revision. When I try to click a scientist over to the next type of citizen the game just drops off the screen. I had this happen in another game and I have to remember to click the center square when switching one over. Also save often in case I forget. Anyhow, there are a gang of workers in the mountains of Zabalam that would probably be better served retiling around Sagres, The Hauge and Ur to get them over 50spt in preparation for tanks. As the workers finish retiling will begin. Eindhoven goes to harbor in preparation for battleship production. Bad-tiberia is building a factory for a city that does 4spt? Perhaps a hospital for a cash generator. It wastes 39 sheilds. I just figured out why my game was crashing. I had loaded the smallhead file from PTW into my conquests and if I would try to go to civil engineer it wouldn’t have the artwork and would crash. I need those popups for the F1 screen though. Hold on. 5 minutes later I have ones with little smilies and nationality flags. OK, Oporto is the same deal. Lisbon is factory in one with one more CE so we’ll see how it works out with retiling. All my screwing around with CE’s put refining at 3 turns so back in I go. Diplomacy is really a non issue right now. No trades with Inca and Maya have nothing to give us. F1 looks cool. Lets see what’s shaking.

IT – Inca look to be attacking Maya in NE. They sail 3 frigs and a galleon close by. Builds come in. No riots.

[1] 1655AD – Retile Lagos to over 60 if needed but it’s not yet. Do some CE/MM’ing for builds. Retreat ships for now in case they decide on war. They would sink the ships right out of the gate.

IT – Refining comes in. Combustion would take 8 turns. We make 694gpt with no research so single scientist coming up with a steal in a few turns.
Lisbon – Factory > Hospital in 10 w/CE’s. Factory shield increase went to corruption.
[2] 1660 – Just noticed a one tile city named Emar with no defense. Turning a ship around. That’s asking for war. Biggest surprise is that we are now even in tech. Nothing to steal even if we had the cash. Maya have 30g to offer. I’m going to take enough cash this turn so I can investigate an island city but it’s research time. I set it for 60%, 10 turns to get some money to investigate the 6 pop Den Helder on Inca Isle. We have 3 oils.
IT – Nothing much. Some builds
[3] 1665 – Den Helder view. 9cpt. 100% science. He will beat us to combustion. Why is he in anarchy? If he is going to Communism we may have a shot at Science. We’ll check back with him.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRY-1665.jpg

IT – A cathedral and some stock exchanges complete.
[4] 1670 – Still retiling and such. Combustion in 6 at –28gpt. Inca culture is 74582.
IT Maya need a renegotiate on Gems and we need them. We were giving rubber and iron, now we have to kick in 2 lux. We also build an army that I’m parking with the infantry in Marad. An infantry army pillaging when the war starts would be nice.
[5] 1675 – We’re building wallstreet. Combustion in 4 at –29gpt but Inca have it now. Dog gone it. We are out producing him on F11. Deity prices? We make 775gpt at 0% science now, up from 694gpt in turn 2. I’ll wait the 4 turns out. Then we can hopefully go Mass Pro while he goes flight. Inca culture is 75217 or 635cpt. 40 turns!!!!
IT – Nada
[6] 1680. Costs go up on new builds and I need to find some tax revenue.

[7] 1685 – Combustion in 2 at +199gpt.

[8] 1690 – Combustion in 1 at +202 gpt
[9] 1695 We now make +819gpt at 0% science. Slider goes to 0 for steal when Inca get next tech. We could research Mass P in 7. We can steal in 5 turns. They cost 3012 safe, 2259 careful. BTW, Inca is a fascist. We make +873gpt now. Steals a’coming.
[10] 1700 – Wall street completes and we’re at 926gpt.

It looks like we are in good shape to either steal in 3-4 turns, when he gets a tech, or save up to be able to research a tech of our choice in 5 at a deficit. Either way I think a defensive war with a couple armies killing his production while defending against beach landings would soften him up prior to main invasion. I have the ships ready to upgrade and it is time to get some real ships ready after the steal. We are out producing him so he should be able to win this. When we attack I think a diversion to get his troops elsewhere and then come in neat Constantinople.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1700AD.SAV)

got it

I was in work whole yesterday. Will play today but can't post until tomorrow.

inherited -1700AD
check ->ok

1 - 1705AD
2 - 1710AD
galleons upgraded
Science to 90%

3 - 1715AD
Built coal plant for nothing.

4 - 1720AD
5 - 1725AD
Inca know Mass Production.

IT MP-> MT
We lost Maya's Furs.
6 - 1730AD
7 - 1735AD
8 - 1740AD
9 - 1745AD
10 - 1750AD

notes:
I set continental rally point.

We learn MT in one turn. Then research Flight, we may get computers as our free Modern ages tech.

Here is area were Inca products most culture. Cuzco, Macchu Picchu and Vilcas three biggest. We should raze 4 cities in NW peninsula first. We could land two SOD one from west and other from north.

I was tired to take more notes. (played in night)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1750ad.jpg

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03_1750ad.zip)

I got it. For some reason the link did not work, but I found the file in the uploads folder.

Preturn: I go get Kuningas' list of cities. Agree on Peninsula hit.

One thing I learned from a recent game: Include a few workers in the attack force. The reason is to build an airport when we get the Air tech. Otherwise we need to take out a town first and spend much cash on the airport. Check the attack force and see that there is a worker. Good Stuff.

I load up a few workers for a secondary attack and send out the existing boats with them.

The Incans have 256! infantry. This will not be easy. I think I will be landing on the one hill on the Peninsula as I expect to get attacked by some of these infantry.

IBT: We get MT and start Flight.

1752 AD:
Well the Incans are going for Tanks too. They will offer very little for MT.

I want flight ASAP, so I MM our towns for it. I gain between 200-300 science doing this (at the cost of growth and builds in more corrupt towns mostly) and can get flight in 6 (it was 8 when I started).

1754 AD: Most transports are lined up. First tanks made. Rush a transport to move the new tank army across.

1756 AD: Our transport with the army is in the middle of the ocean. Even though I want to start war ASAP, I wait one turn to safely land the army. I don't have a destroyer to cover the army transport.

1758 AD: The Incans are now building tanks (they have 7). Don't think that holding off is going to work though. So here we go: I declare war.

We capture the town that on the island we share with the Incas (Caxamalca).

Land troops on two spots. The Peninsula to the N and on one of the two iron that the Incas own.

It looks like if I finish my 10, I will have 6 years of war which is just 1 over the 5 per player we were going to switch to. I will probably do this, but not move the units on the 10th turn.

Lets see what the Incas counter with....

IBT:
We lose our one destroyer and 2 empty transports. Two tanks attack the stack to the N and kill 2 infantry.

1760 AD: Bombard Ica. Get troops down to 1 hp and lessen the city to size 6. Use Cav and an Infantry to destroy the city of Ico. Capture the town of Nicomedia,

1762 AD: Set up to attack next turn. Flight next turn.

IBT: We get Flight with Fission as our bonus tech. Start computer research.

1764 AD: Take the town of Varna. Take the town of Arequippa I take the town rather than razing to build airports using workers. Build a bunch of Airports back in the homelands using workers and switch a few towns to airports. Transport several tanks across to the other continent using the airports. Capture Ancyra (island town).

We now have war weariness but taking Varna gave us another Lux.
I am going to change the towns back to normal (switch back from all the scientists so the towns can grow again).

Ur is building the UN.

IBT: Some riots due to increased WW. Nicomedia flips back to the Incas losing some infantry. I need some settlers over here.

1766 AD: Take back Nicomedia. Take VIlcas. Abandon Arequippa - Flip chance must be very high.

1768 AD: Yes! Our elite tank gives us a leader. Take brusa (island city). Decide I had better abandon Vilcas.

1770 AD: I moved a few units but left a good bit for the next player.

Notes: The war is going ok so far. Progress is slow. We cut the main Incan army off from its core. The troops were all down fighting the Mayans. Now they are all in our cut (LOTS of infantry).

You will get a lot of Tank warfare Barbslinger.

Here is a picture of the overview and our two attack fronts:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1770ADc.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1770ADb.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1770ADa.JPG

Finally, we are going to lose the town on this island, I think: I sent some troops in my new airport, but they don't move in time to save the town. There are 2 tanks outside the city with a lone infantry to defend it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1770ADd.JPG

>> The Save << (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1770AD.zip)

Will look it over tonight but I can't play until tomorrow night. I'm at work now and have to be back here in AM. Lets rock. I plan to MM cities for 2 turn tanks and bring them in. Can we outproduce Inca and win an attrition war?

Can we win a diplo? I have had it happen that all 3 civs vote for themselves. We can try if we can get the Mayans happy and keep them at war with Incans.

As long as they are still at war, it might work. Getting them happy might be hard though. We have serious rep problems this game. When the UN is going to finish check if the war is still on. If so gift them tech and see what happens.

Not a promising update but we still have a chance. War wearness is major and killing us on research and cash and production. Inca are down to 170 inf and 18 tanks. We are holding cities and killing them in kill zones for now. I have the Mayan up to cautious for UN vote in 6. The silks should be hooked up when I pass off. There is a suicide transport trying to get a settler there. It is really tough sledding. I'll finish after work tomorrow, it's already 5am and I have to be to work at 10am.

KRYS3-1770- AD

Preturn – We have some serious happy trouble. Going through cities to straighten that out 1st. Inca now have nearly 90972 culture. Could be trouble. I fix about 80% of the cities. Good news we shouldn’t have revolts this next turn. Bad news, computers in 11. Well now 10 again, but we only make +2gpt. I am thinking of revolting but want to see how many turns we have left before Inca pop the culture win. I also mobilized for war. There is no turning back now is there? I drafted around 8 infantry and then disbanded one in UN city but it didn’t give me any shields. So I started a shuffle for vet inf and sent vets via airports to the front. I had a couple 3/5 tanks and after whittling some cav down to 2hp and some infs down to 1 or 2 hp tried for a leader to hopefully rush a harbor for the lux we have after the initial landing assault. No dice. Flew in a tank too. Looks like we have NO coverships for transports that are loaded and heading out to sea. They are filled with artillery and a settler that can’t airlift so it looks like a suicide run is the only hope for them. Wow, this looks absolutely desperate. Why aren’t the furs online? I think we need an airport/harbor in one of the cities near them. IT’s not looking good for our northern island either. Well, here we go!

IT – We lose the island cities but should be able to retake them. Lose 2 infantry at the front. 2 cities riot, including the UN city. I checked all of them!

[1] 1772 – All the cities are ready to riot and it will take 2 jumps in lux to fix it. I really don’t know what to do? Lower sci-sli and raise lux tax for now. Inca now have 91256 which is +284cpt or 31 turns. I kill 4 takes in a kill zone in the north and 4 units in the south. Shuffling up troops to our NW so we can eventually go to the Incan oil to hopefully take that out. I rushed the harbor for furs.

IT – Fur are online and that helps. Lost about 8 infantry. They are really sending the tanks now. 1 city riots. I think it is finally under control.

[2] 1774 – Lot of consolidating for a big incan offensive coming. We may lose the harbor. Not enough infantry. Shipping more in but they have around 30 infantry ready to attack not to mention new tanks that will stroll by for a good killing. Got a leader.

IT – Lose a bunch but harbor holds with 2 infantry to spare. Whew. They did pillage the furs though. The fur loss and the a$$-kicking I got caused Ur to riot and I had to scroll a lot of cities. Man, this is tough. We also had the 1st Incan air force attacks, 3 of them. Flak has been flying in. If we lose harbor town it will get an airport. Also rushing walls there.

Look at how bad the war-weariness got.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys_1770.jpg

[3] 1776 – The trans ports made it and drop off a lot of artys, a settler and a couple infantry. We have a lot of entertainers working. I took back one of the N island cities and captured a different island city. I also have a group heading to our NW corner to group up for a strike on the Inca island with the 2 oils. I’m pretty sure that is their only supply. Busted a settler/ inf pair ready to settle our N silk penisula and take out our airport.

IT – We lost our harbor and town in central Inca area. Walls come in so I only have the city to watch and can abandon the airstrip after this turn.

[4] 1778 – Went back in with army and 2 tanks to save 7 artillary. Razed the town with airport coming online next turn. Sent another suicide transport with a lone settler to try and make it to silks peninsula.

IT – Take another beating. Inca are down to 183 infantry now and airport city is clear of hostiles.

[5] 1780 – Clear out some incan tanks around and fortify position. Tough to find an opening to attack here. Inca now have 29 tanks.

IT – Only one loss. Walls in Varna again after having them bombed out last turn.

[6] 1782 – Cleared out a 4 inf / 2 settler grop dropped off behind the lines near silks. Cleared out all Inca tanks near Varna.

[7] 1784 – Cleared out more tanks in kill zones. They now have 172 inf and 22 tanks. I have the Maya up to cautious. 6 left on UN. We are still up Fission on Inca. I am getting sick of being ready to lose pop in cities in a few turns due to trying to keep computers coming in at a reasonable date. I could keep MM’ing and leaving a food deficit chewing food out of the granary but then it would leve the next leader with loads of cities still shrinking. For this reason I have to go to 10% research and raise the lux. Even with this we have a lot of cities running entertainers. Monarchy perhaps? I would hate to think of going through a 6-8 turn anarchy :eek:.

IT – Only lost a couple tanks and 1 inf in Varna. Pollution outbreaks again.

[8] – 1786 – Hook up furs again. Computers in 12. I put the tank army on furs for now. Now I have a stack in Varna and a stack on furs. Kill zones do their job and noticing that Inca are sending Guerrillas now. They have BTW, every turn I have been giving Maya all our gold and then selling him a tech per turn to get the gold back. He is still cautious. Run through cities again adjusting specialist for science to get computer to 11 and gold up to +6gpt.

IT – Lost 2 infantry and they start air bombing our coast at Amsterdam. Flak moving in. I get a couple WLTK days in fishing villages.

[9] 1788AD – Killed 7 tank, 3 inf in Varna and 4 tanks near our new city Inca North. The suicide settler made it. Ince 159 inf, 16 tanks. We have 53 inf, 43 tanks. There are still 2 redlined tanks near Ince N. but they have infantry to get through. Hopefully rushing harbor next turn. We need more tanks up there. It is almost time to go on full offensive. We have 6 injured tanks and the 11/17 tank army in Inca N and 17 tanks – 10/17 tank army in and around Varna.

IT – they only attacked Varna with 1 tank this turn. They sent around 7 tanks to Inca North though now that we will be getting silk hooked up in 2 turns.

[10] 1790 – Killed all but 1 redlined tank in Inca N. They did send the bulk of the tanks to the left side of the contingent there where 2 infantry are unfortified. I’m hoping they will resort to going where their redlined unit is so we can kill them off. Made Maya polite with gift of saltpeter and horses. We have a UN chance. Give him lots of resources and trade him our gifted cash for 1 tech and give him other techs 1 turn prior too UN build.

Notes: I don’t know if the 2 infantry in Inca North will hold up because they can reach them. They are certainly heading to Inca North now, Varna has been secured with furs. Silks will come online next turn so you will have some flexibility with some cash. Time is dwindling so if UN does not come in, we will have to go on the attack. It is Inca 155inf/15 tank to our 54/47. Most units are healing. If it gets close to the end I would consider abandoning island cities with tanks still on them for defense and airlift those in too. We don’t really need those cities after we get computers and most are filled with scientists for the computer push. We could certainly use more tanks for the assault. I feel our production advantage and secure Inca continent locations should get us 5-6 cities coming up. I would even turn off science after computers come in and rush some bombers in lower shield cities. C3C bombers are lethal and a group of 12 or so can take out a pile of infantry. I want to apologize to the group for my play in the first few turns. I was excited to go and get some cities and probably lost a few tanks and infantry due to wanting to “get at ‘em”. Once I settled down into what the situation was I got some kill zones set up and knew I could decrease their numbers easier than trying to take a city with a group of 6, injured by the time they got there, tanks.

Good luck.

>> THE SAVE << (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1790AD.SAV)



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys_1790b.jpg

So Barbslinger, did you get your wish of intense modern warfare :D :D :lol:

I wouldn't worry too much about the early play. The position I left you with was an extremely rough one with all the Infantry from the Mayan war just returning. It sounds like you also got hit by the initial wave of tanks (they had gotten MT about 5 turns before). It sounds like you got the situation more stabalized by the end.

I looked at Incan culture and it is 93737. Kuningas, on your turns it might be interesting to list the Incan culture each turn, sort of as a count down. Our best hope is the UN. Keep the Mayans as happy as we can and hope. It may be a long shot as we have ruined our rep in the game and they were pretty upset with us at one point, but them being cautious gives me hope. We can gift them into the modern age - with 3 cities they aren't a threat. They may abstain in which case we probably have less than 10 turns to destroy the incan cultural heavy weight cities (and each destroyed city gives us a bit more time). This may not be possible, but do your best Kuningas. Your choice on taking 5 or 10 turns (and I am really hoping you take 3 and we win by Diplo!).

I don't think I have ever had a game this close, and I haven't had the AI run away culturally like this (though my deity experience is still not huge). Cultural is very difficult because you can't just go kill the capitol, or the city with the UN to stop it. You basically are forced to massive attacks on heavily defended cities.

By the way, do we know whether razing Incan cities hurts the Mayan attitude toward us?

Good luck Kuningas! Don't worry too much if you cannot win militarily (i.e. take enough cities fast enough). I am not sure it is doable. My gut feeling is that it is not.

It occurred to me recently, that a better strategy back when we first noticed the high Incan culture might have been to rush cultural buildings in all towns. We could have probably gotten to 50k culture by now and stopped the Incans by keeping within 1/2 their culture. Sadly, this did not occur to me, and I also thought the military solution was going to be faster.

I gifted them hoses and saltpeter near the end and he's a smiling man right now. Unless he abstains we should win this. Once silks come online save a wad o'cash fr 1 or 2 turns before UN vote. Gift the cash to him and then let him purchase a tech from us. Then right before the UN build gift him all lux, techs into modern age. It should work. If it does it will be funny thinking that we never had to go to war at all!

I am not sure about that. The 5 cities I destroyed totalled 99 culture per turn (Vilcas especially - I went back and investigated it, had 36 culture with Shakespeares and (though I didn't know it at the time) the Forbidden Palace).

So that would have been +1500 culture without the war (perhaps more if they would have built culture instead of military)

Actually even more seriously, the Mayans would probably have been destroyed ruining any chance of a diplo win - this one just occurred to me now - I think the war was required and that the attack to cut the Incans in half was more significant than I thought. It probably kept any tanks away from the Mayans.

[Edit: I am really glad to hear they Mayans will probably vote for us. The military win is extremely dubious at this point]

I was typing after just getting out of bed and did not have my civ thinking cap on.:crazyeye:

>By the way, do we know whether razing Incan cities hurts the Mayan attitude toward us?

IMO we get attitude hit when Inca and Maya sign peace treaty. Quite high hit :D

I got it, I played two turns and UN is one turn away. Hope for the best.

Well shoot. Now I don't know whether or not to go to bed!

1 - 1790AD
Initial plan on my turns. Hold defensive position and wait for UN. If UN fails I go full offense.

MM'ing, Silks come online in next turn.
Inca: 93737cp, 22 Tanks, 155 Infantry
We: 54 Infantry, 54 Tanks

2 - 1792AD
Adana (island city) recaptured
Lazapa (ex-Mayan city) captured

MM'ing, Computers in 6 turns, +33gpt.
Inca: 94010cp (+273), Begin: 22 Tanks, 155 Infantry. End: 13 Tanks, 149 Infantry
We, End:53 Infantry, 50 Tanks

I believe our cities in Incan's continent are safe. I lost some Tanks when I took those two cities.

3 - 1794AD
Sausa (ex-Mayan city) captured
Tikal (ex-Mayan city) captured
- (ex-Mayan city) razed

Inca: 94283cp (+273), Begin: 22 Tanks, 149 Infantry. End: 13 Tanks, 138 Infantry
We, End: 53 Infantry, 54 Tanks

definitely Southern part is ours. There is 2-3 Infantry fortifield per city. More happiness, Gems connected.

UN vote in next turn. I gift Mayan to Modern Times. I give Fission for MPP and MA vs Inca. They are Polite. Do they vote for us? or not?

4 - 1796AD

Inca: 94554 (+271) Begin: 22 Tanks, 138 Infantry.
We: 54 Infatry, 61 Tanks.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1796a.jpg

The UN vote:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1796b.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1796d.jpg

:band:

Victory (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/krys03-1794ad.zip)

The spirit of the SG:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03_1796c.jpg

Inca's culture growth were faster before the war. Culture growth halved in war time. mobilization? I think I play from the last save without UN to see if it's possible to win domination. Congratulations to team, hopefully players who dropped have time to read this. Special thanks to Greebley. This game would be dead without your aid.

WOOT! We won! Congratulations and thanks for playing this out Kuningas, and Barbslinger for helping us through the tank warfare. I am glad we didn't drop this. It was an interesting game.

Ya, they must be mobilized. That may make a military win possible. Silly Incans! I will have to remember that if I am ever facing a cultural AI win. Warfare will drive the AI to 1/2 their culture! It could even be used if you are going for a culture win and are worried about getting over 2x the AI culture.

Kuningas, I would be curious if you do play it out whether you can win it militarily, so post the results. My guess is yes with the 1/2 culture aspect. I may try myself if I have the time

Krys,
If you are still around, it was an enjoyable game you started. I don't know if your burn out on civ is permanant, but if not, maybe we will see you around again (or the Civ 4 SGs :D )

[ Edited out a request for the save. I just missed it first time thru]

Yippee! Glad to lend a hand guys. We made him happy after all. Good point on the culture graph. Will keep my eye on that in the future.

So I had to try out the military victory.

I succeeded - Incan culture was slow enough to pull it off. I ended up destroying the Incans in 1844, but I bet it could be done faster if more care was taken.

The culture was within 2000 of the Incan win.

Here are two pictures and the save right before I destroy them if anyone is interested. By 1852, I had destroyed the Mayans as well.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-1884AD.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Krys03-Culture.JPG
The 1844 save before Incan destruction (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/KRYS03-1884AD.SAV)

Hello guys ! :) Well, I kept lurking this game, just to see if it was going well, and I'm happy about this victory. :thumbsup:

I don't wish to return to SGs (at least now), maybe someday I will feel like going for a special game...? Right now I'm only playing PBEM at the CDZ site, and it already takes too much time ! I don't even play solo, but as soon as I don't have exams coming up (in 1 month), I'll start playing on my own again (have to play those bloody conquests someday)... and work on my mod. :o

In any case, we'll hopefully meet here or there someday.

Thanks for playing to the end.
And a lot of fun for you in your next games !