Since C3:C is still a few weeks away for us ROWs (Rest-of-the-World-ers) I thought I'd start an SG of my own.
To compensate the elaborate variants we've been playing lately I suggest a simple ;) Always War.

The roster:
1) mad-bax <---------- just played
2) TedJackson
3) Karasu
4) Greebley
5) Handy900 <---------- UP
6) Northern Pike <--------- on deck
7) Space


For those new to the concept: we declare war to each Civ the moment we meet them. This first contact is the only possibility to trade but the negotiations will always end with a war declaration.

Here are the specs:

Version: PTW v1.27
Level: Monarch
Landmass: Continents
Climate and Age: Random
Size: Standard
Opponents: Random
Civ: Rome

For me it's a first try, hence the Monarch level. Still hard enough I would think :), veterans say you should add a level-and-a-half, so it'll be like demi-god, ie harder than emperor. This should be fun with fellow AW newbies, but veterans are welcome too. Also if only to lurk and comment. ;)

My personal favorites for the Civ are: either the Ottoman or the Chinese for their great UU's, but maybe we should go for the Greek (good early defensive UU, free techs) or the Romans (good early offensive and defensive UU, cheap Barracks).
Going with one the latter two will mean an early GA, but surviving the first part of the game is probably the hardest part. (Is it? That is the great thing about starting something new, lots of things to be learned... :) )




http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-Rome.JPG

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-start-Rome.zip)


Da rulez:
Mad will start us up by playing 20 turns. After that it's 10 turns each. If we manage to survive we may need to make that 5 each at some point, but only when I've given permission... :evil:

Strict 24 hours for a "got it", after that 48 hours to play.
If you're not able to play, just say so and we'll work around it. We have a long roster so this should not be a problem. If you fail the "got it" the game moves to the next player.

We'll play "honourable" (RBCiv rules). It will be hard to break any deals anyway. :D
RCP not forbidden but not encouraged either.

Sign me up of course. :D

I don't mind which civ we use. I've never played the English actually. Fancy a challenge?

As SG23P is over bar the shouting, count me in Space.


Ted

Glad to have you, guys. I knew I could count on you. :D
I'll edit the first post.

About the English, we would have to have a Wonder induced GA then, not exactly what I had in mind... I have a soft spot for certain Englishmen though... ;), so I'll consider it.

The Man o' War can kill other ships to trip a GA...they just can't bombard to do it.

If you are new to AW, I would suggest a civ with two of the following 3 traits: militaristic, industrious and scientific or at least one of those traits AND a good UU like legion, hoplites, samurais.

Civs that have two good traits and a good UU like the Chinese, Persians and Ottos are ideal.

Thanks Belisar, the Ottos and Chinese were on my list, but the Persians is a good idea too, I haven't played them very often, which is a point in their favour too. :)

Is this an invitation only game Space? or can anyone join? It's just that I noticed there was no post in the registry.

Of course I can't resist, just as sure as I will get myself in trouble for lack of sleep, time and peace of mind...

But if you can bear my being totally schizofrenic, and with my absence from 15th Nov to 8th Dec (holidays... :dance: ), then I would gladly sign in.

Re: the civ, we have already played Otto and China with MB, so I'd avoid them. Why don't we pick a totally pointless Civ to make it more challenging? I mean, Space, you know that some of us tend to complain that their games end up being way too easy... ;)


EDIT: Belisar, are you going to jump in? Or just lurking?

@Karasu: Hard to resist not to jump in when an AW game is announced but with LOTR11 starting soon and Meldor's plans for our NOW team (hopefully he has plans for the next challenge ... hint..hint..) I can not commit myself to another SG.

I whish you good luck by exploring this fun variant and I will lurk with great interest. We had an interesting variant in AM6 and maybe some time (C&C?) we could try our 5CC-AW variant on Monarch.

Originally posted by Belisar
I whish you good luck by exploring this fun variant and I will lurk with great interest. We had an interesting variant in AM6 and maybe some time (C&C?) we could try our 5CC-AW variant on Monarch.

I'll be looking forward to that! :D

Originally posted by mad-bax
Is this an invitation only game Space? or can anyone join? It's just that I noticed there was no post in the registry.

Anyone can join, Mad. Thanks for pointing that out, it wasn't clear. I just haven't posted in the registry yet. :)

I would like to try this as well.

I am by no means an AW expert, so an intro game is the right level for me.

Welcome Greebley, glad to have you with us. :)
I'll put you on the list.

Just some thoughts on our Civ choice.

I can't help but think that a Militaristic Civ will be our passport to success. With that in mind here's a list of the Militaristic Civs, their UUs & their secondary traits.

Militaristic Civs:
Rome - UU Legionary (Swordsman replacement, early Ancient Times) - secondary trait Commercial
Germans - UU Panzer (Tank replacement, late Industrial Age) - secondary trait Scientific
Chinese - UU Riders (Knight replacement, early Middle Ages) - secondary trait Industrious
Japanese - UU Samurai (Knight replacement, Middle Ages) - secondary trait Religious
Aztecs - UU Jaguar (Swordsman replacement, early Ancient Times) - secondary trait Religious
Zulu - UU Impi (Spear replacement, early Ancient Times) - secondary trait Expansionist
Mongols - UU Keshik (Knight replacement, early Middle Ages) - secondary trait Expansionist
Vikings - UU Berserkers (Longbow replacement, early Middle Ages) - secondary trait Expansionist
Celts - UU Gallic Swordsman (Sword replacement, Ancient Times) - secondary trait Religious

Religious won't be much help as we'll probably stay in Monarchy for the whole game.
Expansionist won't suit our game either as we'll want to limit our contacts at the start.

That seems to leave:
Rome with Commercial for reduced corruption but has an Ancient Times UU
Germany with Scientific for cheap Libs & Universities plus the free tech at Era change but has a late Industrial Age UU
Chinese with Industrious for faster roads & tile improvements with a perfectly timed UU but a lot of us are playing (or have just played) this Civ.

Thoughts & comments welcome.


Ted

I'm in if there is room.

If not I'll lurk.

I'm just leaving work and will post more details when I get home. I've got 4 AWM wins so I think I can save us learning lessons the hard way.

EDIT: Gosh I hope I get in. I really really want to play with Ted!! I've learned alot from his posts!

I think I will vote for Rome. I haven't played a full game with them, but they generally seem to do pretty well.

Or is the early GA too much of a killer?

Thoughts on AWM games.

I’ve won with the Celts, Chinese and Ottomans. IMHO the most important trait is industrious, although many would disagree. The Ottomans AWM victory was an easy one, but I got lucky in that game with consecutive leaders for the GL & FP. That was also my last AWM game so I had a lot of experience by then. The Ottomans UU is truly spectacular and the GA is well timed. On the downside, it is a drag building barracks at full cost. China is quite possibly the easiest AW civ. Militaristic + Industious + great UU + well time GA. The Celts have an excellent UU. It’s basically a medieval Infantry with a move of two in the ancient age. The retreat feature is great. The celt UU actually upgrades to MI, which is actually a downgrade sive the MI is 4.2.1 while the celt Gallic Swordsman is 4.2.2. The Celts downside is the despotic GA and Religious nature. The 1 turn move to Monarchy is nice, but not really useful. The cheap temples help a little in the domination win. If you really want a challenge, play as Babylon!

Tips on AWM
Go to Monarchy & stay there.
Early game survival is the key. You need a very favorable kill ratio. To do this you need walls ASAP in all cities on the front. You also must establish a kill zone and set your defenders in a way that induces the AI into the kill zone. They will come like moths to a light.
Go for a dense build. Three tile max from city to city. Develop your tiles quickly. You will want a lot of workers.
Build a lot of cats. In one AWM game I had almost 150 artillery by the end of the game. Many were upgraded cats. Bombardment will allow you to attack and win with elite units, and you know what that means, leaders.
Pre-build the Great Library, it is really hard to win without it.
Read the links below if you have never played an AW game. One link shows the many mistakes I made in my first game. By the end of the thread I’m winning an AW game (thanks to much instruction from betazed). Also read about pillaging. To win you must fight a war of attrition against the AI and destroy his economy via pillaging.

AWM questions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63806)

Offensive Pillaging (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64471)

betazed's Always War Diety win (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59898)

Sorry for the late response, but I'd certainly like to play. :)

I'd make the boring and obvious choice of the Chinese as our civ--the two best characteristics for AW, a good UU, a well-timed GA.

Originally posted by handy900

EDIT: Gosh I hope I get in. I really really want to play with Ted!! I've learned alot from his posts!

Now, how could I refuse a plea like that, :), you're in.

You're in too, NP, glad to have you. :)

This gives us a roster of seven, but Karasu will be away for three weeks, so it should not be a problem. We are complete now, so I will post 4 starts in about 10 hours. These four starts will each feature a different Civ. After some discussion we will vote to determine which one we'll play.

China looks obviously a good pick.

But why not the British? The combination of civ traits and UU is probably the worst choice we could make for an AW game...

Exactly :D

Though if everyone else wants and easier game...... ;)

I must confess that I've never played as Germany so I quite fancy taking them for a spin. But I'll happily play with whatever the team and/or Space chooses :)


Ted

Thank you, thank you very much! I can't wait!

Handy has to take a RL business trip from approximately Nov 18 to 21. It may stretch to the whole week. I'll remind you of this when we get nearer to the date. I won't have time to play my turns during this trip :( . Hopefully with 7 people I won't miss a turn.

EDIT: With regards to CIV, I truly do not care. But I have been thinking about it some more. We will have to research almost all of our own techs since we cannot trade, so scientific cheap library & university plus the free tech when we enter a new age does help alot. Militaristic gives you barracks at 1/2 cost, but scientific gives you library + university at 1/2 cost. I usually win by domination at AW, and the cheap culture will speed our ultimate victory. OTOH there are good reasons to pick China as I noted earlier. China and the Ottomans are both good picks. If you get forests you can chop a barracks pretty fast. Both China & Ottomans have good strengths, and weaknesses we can overcome with good play. If you make me pick one for a first time AWM game, it would be China by a hair.

I do recommend we consider this…
I always restart an AW game until I get a corner position in the mini-map. It does not have to be a 5 wine or 2 cow awesome hall of fame corner position, just a corner. Now, if you do happen to get a 2 cow start with luxuries in our area, don’t feel like you have to apologize ;). The corner start allows us to fight a one front war & work our way out of the corner. It’s us against the world and a two front war is a really hard road to travel. I’m still in if you decide you want to just play the first start we get, but understand it’s going to be much more difficult.

Looking forward to my turns….

Glad to be in; thanks, Space. :egypt:

On reflection, I wouldn't object to the "Thin Orange Line" challenge as the English, though I suppose the next step is to look at the starts Space posts. Perhaps we'll get a "Roast Beef of Old England" start--a difficult civ, but plenty of cows. :lol:

Originally posted by Northern Pike
Perhaps we'll get a "Roast Beef of Old England" start--a difficult civ, but plenty of cows. :lol: :D :D :D


Ted

The first Civ most people try. Somehow they seem very fitting in the context an Always War. They have a very nice but rather early UU, the Legionair, (3/3/1).

Their traits are militaristic and commercial. This means cheap barracks and the alphabet is very useful too.

The start position is nice, it has bonus food and a river. There probably are no Nothern attacks. Some coast is visible under the fog.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-Rome.JPG

Persia is the next Civ to be presented. Persia is Industrious and Scientific. Like people have mentioned before, these are very useful traits too, even in an Always War. Since we have to do most of our research ourselves. Rapid early growth is essential, so is the ability to quickly re-build any pillaged tiles.

Persia has the Immortal (4/2/1) as their UU, again an early one.

The starting position is good, but not super. Food bonus, on fresh water, but no river. It is in a corner of the map though, that should give us a defensible starting land.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-Persia.JPG

The next editor's choice are the French. The French feature a later UU, good for defense, the one and only useful musketman, the Musketeer (3/4/1).

On top of that they are Commercial and Industrious. The right choice for those who like a more difficult SG. :D

The start is favourable, with a cow, bonus grass, forests and a river. The defensive traits will be put to good use because there's a good chance there will be oppontents in both the North and the South.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-France.JPG

And last but certainly not least: the English. Being Expansionist and Commercial, they are most unsuitable for playing an AW. Very fittingly they have the notorious Man-O-War. Not one but two strategic resources are needed to be able to build it (Iron, Saltpeter) but... remember that this is a continents map, the sea will play its role in this game!

The starting position is interesting too, in the middle of the map. :)
The map features a river, luxes and ... jungle. But again, folks, this is not necessarily bad, because jungle slows the early scouts and is a very good natural defense line.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-England.JPG

So, Gentlemen, what is going to be you pick? Believe it or not, these where the first start of each civ I rolled, I have no knowledge of the maps, or the opponents.

The Barbarian level is Restless, re-spawning is OFF, cultural linked starts is OFF.

Can I have your votes, please? :thanx:

edit: I left the Chinese and the Ottoman out since most of the people on the roster have used these two recently in other SGs.

I vote for Germany...

oops, make that France. That Joan is such a cutie :)


Ted

Rome.
I've never played Rome in an AW game, and have always meant to. Can't argue with the position. I'm playing Joan in another game now. The Persia starts looks like a very winnable one also...

But like I said, I'm up for any of these. Can't wait for the final choice so we can talk some strategy.

Patience, Grasshopper, all in due time. :)

Predictably I like the English start. The coastal location makes it easy to defend. No obvious settler factory, rubbish traits, useless UU and lots of jungle to clear with no industrious workers all just go to making it a nice gentle introduction to an AW game. :)

The most winnable start is the Persain start IMO. Settle NE on the silks for a coastal capital and Bobs your Uncle.

I am going to stay with my earlier Rome vote.

I wonder if we should narrow the choice to two (the two with the most picks) and then have every who didn't choose one of the two then revote. The advantage to this is you don't lose your vote if you are the only one voting for a civ.

For example if 2 ppl voted rome and 2 voted england, and all 3 remaining wanted persia, but they see no votes for persia, so they pick one of the 2 "contenders". Persia loses even though it had the most votes.

Did this make sense?

I'm not being outstandingly consistent here, but that start kills my enthusiasm for the English project. It's a thin line between challenge and masochism. ;)

I vote for the Roman start.

Originally posted by mad-bax
No obvious settler factory, rubbish traits, useless UU and lots of jungle to clear with no industrious workers all just go to making it a nice gentle introduction to an AW game. :)


Add to this a Continents map on Monarch with the random-generated number of 134 opponents, and you're flirting with disaster...

Therefore, my vote is England :D

If, on the other hand, we really want a winnable game, my second choice would be Persia.

I vote for the Persians.

The final tally:

France - TedJ
Rome - Handy, Greebley, Pike
England - Mad-bax, Karasu
Persia - Space

So the winner is... Rome! I'll post the save tonight.

I don't object to Rome, but just for the hell of it..
I was being facetious when I said I liked the English start. My vote was really for the Persians. I should have used more smilies, or better still, proper English.

But Rome it is. Hail Caesar Spaceous! ;)

Seems like we actually have a tie here, since I originally had Karasu down for Persia too. :D

So I'll go wth Greebley's suggestion and let Ted decide on the matter, since he'll be forced to choose between Rome and Persia. No more dreams of Joan, it's the X-Man or Ceasar for for you. :whipped:

Rome - Handy, Greebley, Pike
Persia - Mad-bax, Karasu, Space

Ok, then, we'll have to win this one too... :p

What about the roster then... I mean the order: who is going to get us started? I have some ideas, but I'll keep them to myself... ;)

Hmm, yes, the actual order... I have some ideas too. :D

Actually, I don't see so much wrong with the way it is, I'll change the first post.

Originally posted by a space oddity
Actually, I don't see so much wrong with the way it is...

I knew it... :lol: and, btw, very nicely put, Space. ;)

I object to Ted being after me in the roster. He always picks me up on my :smoke: moves. ;)

Only joking...... I think.

"Cry `HAVOC' and let slip the dogs of war!"
William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene I

Just be careful not to step in the pooh :)

Edit: Just pass the bong along with the save MB. Then I'll be much more relaxed about dubious moves :)


Ted

Rome it is then, alea jacta est, morituri te salutant!. :) Actually I'm much more optimistic than that, go team!

When the save is up, so will MB be. Ted is 'on the bench'.

The floor is free for tactical discussion. So we are the Roman, tech gaining will be extra hard and will have to have our undevided attention. Which ones will be our first goal? (my suggestion would be Math and Iron)

Exploration should be done verrrrry carefully.

Does that mean I'm not allowed my usual farmer gambit opening?

The job at hand is staying alive. If you manage to do that with a farmer gambit, it's OK. I don't know what Ted will say though. :hammer:

But seriously, landgrab stays as important as ever.

Barracks as first or second build for every city except capital. Dense build (not quite ICS) to allow units to support more than 1 city.
Build Warriors not Spears.
Build Horses not MDI.
Don't upgrade Legions, use them instead of Pikes for defense (they're just as good).
Beeline for IW, Great Lib, Maths then Monarchy. We might get lucky with some first contacts to get something we need.
Build Markets then Libs ASAP as we'll have to do all our own research after the initial contact trading.

Just some of the lessons I've learnt. Sorry to be abrupt but I've got to dash out now. Expand a bit when I get back.


Ted

Originally posted by mad-bax
I don't object to Rome, but just for the hell of it..
I was being facetious when I said I liked the English start. My vote was really for the Persians. I should have used more smilies, or better still, proper English.

But Rome it is. Hail Caesar Spaceous! ;)

If we had been asked to rank them by easiest start Persia would have gotten my vote. However, Rome looks very winnable, and I have a soft spot for the Baccus. Furthermore, the defense of our UU will come in very handy me thinks. And if the RNG is in a giving mood our UU's offense may get us the Pyramids :egypt: as well as the GL.

Originally posted by TedJackson
Barracks as first or second build for every city except capital. Dense build (not quite ICS) to allow units to support more than 1 city.
Build Warriors not Spears.
Build Horses not MDI.
Don't upgrade Legions, use them instead of Pikes for defense (they're just as good).
Beeline for IW, Great Lib, Maths then Monarchy. We might get lucky with some first contacts to get something we need.
Build Markets then Libs ASAP as we'll have to do all our own research after the initial contact trading.
Ted


I'm mostly in agreement.
Handy is a team player, I will speak my mind (in :love: of course) before the decisions are made, but if the team decides to go in a certain direction, Handy will stick to the plan.
* Dense build is a must. Are we under Lkender¡'s "RCP rules" in this game. The lower corruption of RCP is a big plus in AWM.
* I would strongly suggest walls as the first build in our cities near the front, even before barracks.
* We cannot push our front too far from the capital early on unless it is well fortified (like 12 defense points) with a "bait city" further bask in our lands. It takes too long to build walls & barracks in a low corruption city far from home, and the AI will attack with little pause. We will have to build production cities in safe locations.
* Must plan & build a kill zone with ample bait to force/lure the AI there. For the lurkers out there, a kill zone is flat land next to our fortified position (city, hills or mountains). AI walks to the flat land (no forests allowed) & we kill AI units after the cats bombard. We kill the AI units on the turn they walk up before they can fortify. Best if the kill zone has roads so our horses can retreat after they kill the last AI unit. We never leave one of our units exposed on the flats by itself for the AI to attack.
* I also less strongly suggest spears for the areas near our kill zone, at least until our UU comes on board. Spears upgrade all game long, and since we are at war all game long... well I tend build a lot of spears. Muskets & rifles kill a lot of cavalry in a city on hills behind walls.
*Good idea to build horses & no upgrade of legions. Horsemen knock off the last low hp enemy in our kill zone then retreat to safety. Useful upgrades too.
* GL is the top #1 priority Suggest we set aside a city (on a river if possible) with hills & plains very early for the pre-build. Then improve & join workers into the city. If we miss the GL in a continents game, degree of difficulty increases dramatically. We'll be trying to move troops to the other continent while we are attacked by everyone's ironclads.
If get a really early leader we can consider the Pyramids. Pyramids help us, and also deny the use to the AI.
* In solo games I build lots of catapults. I set one aside at least one city as a cat factory. Cats will miss often, but the bombardment will catapult the kill ratio & leader production to high levels.
* Build a lot of workers. You must make yourself do this as your inclination is to build military. An early worker factory is a good idea. After the obvious city builds, build high corruption cities near the north of our empire will enough food to produce 1 workers each 10 turns worst case.

Let loose the dogs...

@Handy: We're (or at least I am) not looking for the easiest game here, but we (I) do like to win. :D

I would have voted the English if I had not wanted to play the Persians. I missed the Open Immortal Conquest earlier and I have never played the Persians other then an opening to try a specific strat. It's all immaterial in the end, as you can tell by the setup and choices, I like things random, not pre-cooked.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by a space oddity
[B]@Handy: We're (or at least I am) not looking for the easiest game here, but we (I) do like to win. :D

Agreed. If there is no hill to climb, there is no challenge. Much more fun to think our way out of the hole, and AWM is definitly a hole.

As our fearless leader you (in my eyes at least) have final say. If anything I suggest appears too unbalancing to you, I won't complain. I'm interested in being a good teammate and having fun.

Wow, Handy, your post increased a bit since I reacted to it. :)
I will update the first post with the save and the rules tonight. I play under honourable rules (see RBCiv) and dislike RCP, but if there are some good sites at equal distances then we're lucky. ;)
For city placement we should go for the CxxC pattern to make troop movement quick (you know: build a unit in your core, move it to the second city, move the unit that was there to the third, etc, all the way out).
I agree with lots of catapults, hence the Math target for our research. Lots of workers always! Both can easily be build in corrupt cities.
Spears are expensive in the early game, and our Warriors will upgrade to Legions :cool:, but I do agree on the upgrade path. I guess we'll start building them when we've got Iron.

I'm sure someone will tell me when this is total BS... ;)

I think most of the basic points about surviving in a heavy-war game have been made. I particularly second what's been said about walls (a fantastically cost-effective force multiplier for a militaristic civ) and catapults.

I would just add that we need to make Heroic Epic a high priority, forming an army with our third Great Leader at latest. In ordinary games the math on HE doesn't always work out, since it may not boost the final Leader yield by more than the one it (indirectly) costs. But in a game like this, HE is certain to give us several extra Leaders by the moment of victory if we get it built early.

Originally posted by handy900
I'm mostly in agreement.
* I would strongly suggest walls as the first build in our cities near the front, even before barracks. I agree handy. I was a bit rushed for time so I just posted what immediately came to mind :)

Originally posted by handy900
* We cannot push our front too far from the capital early on unless it is well fortified (like 12 defense points) with a "bait city" further bask in our lands. It takes too long to build walls & barracks in a low corruption city far from home, and the AI will attack with little pause. We will have to build production cities in safe locations.
* Must plan & build a kill zone with ample bait to force/lure the AI there. For the lurkers out there, a kill zone is flat land next to our fortified position (city, hills or mountains). AI walks to the flat land (no forests allowed) & we kill AI units after the cats bombard. We kill the AI units on the turn they walk up before they can fortify. Best if the kill zone has roads so our horses can retreat after they kill the last AI unit. We never leave one of our units exposed on the flats by itself for the AI to attack. Agreed :)

Originally posted by handy900
* I also less strongly suggest spears for the areas near our kill zone, at least until our UU comes on board. Spears upgrade all game long, and since we are at war all game long... well I tend build a lot of spears. Muskets & rifles kill a lot of cavalry in a city on hills behind walls. I think this will depend on the situation we find ourselves in.

I'm not totally against Spears but for 20 shields you can either have 1 Spear or 2 Warriors. As Warriors upgrade to our UU I'm definitely leaning that way. When you also consider that Legionaries defend at 3 rather than the Spears 2 it just adds to that leaning.

All the above is based on an ideal situation where we have Iron (not necessarily connected, but easily available) and Iron Working. There is a place for Spears in our Armies but they aren't as compelling as Warriors/Legions for the early game.

Originally posted by handy900
*Good idea to build horses & no upgrade of legions. Horsemen knock off the last low hp enemy in our kill zone then retreat to safety. Useful upgrades too. I'm playing in another game where Legions were being upgraded & it just made me aware that it isn't the best use for them. It's not a bad thing to upgrade a few but if you go the Warrior/Legionary route then you lose your best defenders.

Originally posted by handy900
* GL is the top #1 priority Suggest we set aside a city (on a river if possible) with hills & plains very early for the pre-build. Then improve & join workers into the city. If we miss the GL in a continents game, degree of difficulty increases dramatically. We'll be trying to move troops to the other continent while we are attacked by everyone's ironclads.
If get a really early leader we can consider the Pyramids. Pyramids help us, and also deny the use to the AI. Don't expect too much from the Great Library. We might get lucky or we might not. Either way we'll need to get our research capability up & running quite early.

Originally posted by handy900
* In solo games I build lots of catapults. I set one aside at least one city as a cat factory. Cats will miss often, but the bombardment will catapult the kill ratio & leader production to high levels.
* Build a lot of workers. You must make yourself do this as your inclination is to build military. An early worker factory is a good idea. After the obvious city builds, build high corruption cities near the north of our empire will enough food to produce 1 workers each 10 turns worst case. All good points.

Just my (usual) random thoughts.


Ted

Guys, I've put the save and the rules in the first post.
Mad-bax, would you do the honour of getting this game started? ;)

Originally posted by Northern Pike
... I would just add that we need to make Heroic Epic a high priority, forming an army with our third Great Leader at latest. In ordinary games the math on HE doesn't always work out, since it may not boost the final Leader yield by more than the one it (indirectly) costs. But in a game like this, HE is certain to give us several extra Leaders by the moment of victory if we get it built early.

Agreed. As it most games, situation will ultimately dictate what we do.

The 5 turns later is a good idea. War takes a long time and the late turns get long.

FYI for all. I go to preferences & turn the battle animations off (speeds up AW turns). I also turn on colorblind help & something else ("city shadow boxes". :confused: ) becasue I just like what they do & how they look. I will try my very best to remember to turn this stuff off before posting a save.

Sounds like we are ready to roll. I'm going to RB @ lunch to make sure I know the rules. I messed up & bought a woker before 1000 bc in another game, so I don't want to screw up in this one right out of the blocks.

With regards to RCP, All else being more or less equal I'll consider it, but I do like river locations & will break RCP for a river, lux, hill, etc. I'm not a pure RCP, it's just hard to totally ignore it when deciding.

Agreed on the city placement for "chaining" troop movement from city to city. Built unit goes to city A, city A's unit goes to city B, B's goes to C, etc. This is a must in this game. You can't wait around for 4 turns while a units plods to the front.

I'm playing.....

Best if the kill zone has roads so our horses can retreat after they kill the last AI unit. We never leave one of our units exposed on the flats by itself for the AI to attack.

I am not sure if I follow this point. The kill zone is on movement 1 terrain by your previous definition. Therefore the horse can attack for 1 move and head back for 1 move. Roads don't seem to make much difference in the point above. The only time I see it mattering is if you want to move more than 1 after attack which would only be useful if a town was within 3 of the kill zone. Then horses could make it back to a town in 1 and get healed fast.

Or is this what the statement above meant and assumed that the kill zone has a close town (which I think is very likely)?

Well we're at war. :)

4000BC: Pre-turn
Worker moves north to wheat. Reveals gems and goody hut. Also looks like we are only 2 tiles from the coast. Nevertheless I settle on the spot.
Found Rome - warrior.
Research set to Pottery at max.

3950BC:
Worker irrigates wheat.

3900BC:

3850BC:

3800BC:

IBT:
Rome warrior - warrior

3750BC:
Warrior NW towards hut
worker roads tile

3700BC:
Pop hut for warrior.
Warrior 2 North

3650BC:
Warrior SW
Warrior 2 N spots more gems and another hut.

3600BC:
Torn between working the BG or plains tile toward next city. Decide on BG.
Worker 2S
Warrior SW - hits coast.
Warrior W towards hut

3550BC:
Worker mine tile
warrior SW
Warrior 2 pops hut for barbs.

IBT:
Borders Expand
Rome warrior - rax

3500BC:
Warrior 3 West
Warrior 2 back to Rome
Warrior 2 heads north leaving 2 fortified barbs alone.

3450BC:
I'll stop recording specific exploration moves. 1 warrior is headed North and the other West in general.

3400BC:
Adjust science for pottery on interturn.

IBT:
Learn Pottery, research BW

3350BC:
Rome switched to granary.

3300BC:

3250BC:
Worker roads tile.

3200BC:
Pink scout appears at our borders. It's the vikings. How nice.
Can trade either BW or CB and all their 36g for alphabet. I take the BW trade.
Declare war.
Research set to IW.

3150BC:
Warrior kills barb.
Pop hut for more barbs.

3100BC:
Warrior 3 kills barb
Warrior 2 kills barb
Worker W - because the next city will be this way.

3050BC:
Worker irrigates

3000BC:
Warrior fortifies in Rome.
EOT

Our known world
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sp1a.jpg

Come and get some Ted (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-3000BC.zip)

Got it

All alone on an island with the Vikings? There go the property prices :)


Ted

Wow, you're so quick, boys. Well done, MB :goodjob:

Like you said, we're at war..., a tad early perhaps, but this looks like a defendable appendix, nice and fertile too.

edit: Mad, could you edit the link so that it points to the zipped file, please? ;)

Sorry Space... Fixed.

Originally posted by Greebley


I am not sure if I follow this point. The kill zone is on movement 1 terrain by your previous definition. Therefore the horse can attack for 1 move and head back for 1 move. Roads don't seem to make much difference in the point above. The only time I see it mattering is if you want to move more than 1 after attack which would only be useful if a town was within 3 of the kill zone. Then horses could make it back to a town in 1 and get healed fast.

Or is this what the statement above meant and assumed that the kill zone has a close town (which I think is very likely)?

Very good catch on a poorly worded post done while I was supposed to be working. ;)
You are correct that roads are of no benefit on flat clear terrain. Where they are of benefit is when you are attacking into forest. If there is not road you get stuck on the forest tile, usually in a weakened state and not fortified. The road in a forest or jungle allows for retreat to the town or fortification on the tile next door.

Below is a shot of a kill zone. Note Canton 2 is undefended. The mountains & hills on the shoreline of the entire continent have a military unit to force the AI onto a flat square when they land. There are loads of cats in striking distance on mountains near New Beijing & New Nanking along with horses & spears. The AI dutifully lands where you see the purple knights. They are bombarded & killed. Same principles apply inland, force the AI to the battle ground of your choosing. We are not near yet at this point in our game, we have to survive first. ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/killz1.JPG

EDITSpace --- I just read the quote below at Realms Beyond

from Realms Beyond
Baiting the AI": Although the AI has been VASTLY improved since the days of the release version when it would sell out its whole strategic position to capture a worker anywhere within a billion miles of its units, there is still some exploitive factor in using workers as sacrificial lamb targets to bait the AI into exposed positions or delay or weaken an attack by diverting the enemy.

The above screen shot with an empty city is obvious bait. It uses no workers as bait, but it is bait. The workers in the screenshot are there for legitimate purposes. They are not why the AI is coming, it's the empty city that draws them. The one near the coast just arrived to build a fort. There are also cats, horses & swords on that tile. The "city bait" turns the AI's advantage of being able to "see" into a city against him. Do you consider this an exploit for purposes of this SG?

@Handy: empty cities as bait is acceptable for this game, such a thing would work in real life too IMO, but we should do our best to defend those cities from the 'outside' so to speak, just like in real life. And I think we will because the loss of a cities is too costly (as opposed to worker(-slaves)).

There is another rule which we should discuss: suicide galleys. The RBCiv rules disallows this, I rarely use them myself. But it may just be the game will turn out to be much too difficult under the AW restriction. Having the AI at war 'from a distance' should slow down the development on other continents. I'm willing to make this a voting issue.

So, gentlemen, what is you opninion on the use of suicide galleys in this game?

I have no opinion either way. Perhaps my brain isn't in gear, but I don't see what benefit contacts with the other continent(s) would be. We won't be able to trade with them, except for maybe two techs in total, we can't use the contacts in any beneficial way, so why waste the shields and effort? Also, how do we provoke wars oversees without the ability to sign MA's?

Personally I wouldn't use suicide galleys in this situation, but not because of any high moral principle, just because I don't think it's worth it.

I haven't got a strong opinion on suicide Galleys (apart from the fact that I have had some luck with them lately... :) ).

It may be true that having faraway civs at war with us could slow their progress somewhat, but we won't be able to form alliances. This will probably negate most of the effects of the war declaration.

Here's the position at turn 9
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-2560BC.jpg

Rome has just produced it's first Settler but we have a stack of Vikings (1 Archer, 2 Warriors) heading toward us. We've also met & declared war on the Iroquois who emerged from the FoW 2S, 1SW of Rome.

I was going to settle on the river by the Cow but that's obviously not possible now.

The question is should I:

a) Disband the Settler to hurry the Spear?
b) Send the Settler to the Coast 2E, 1SE?
c) Send the Settler to the coast 3N?
d) Something else :) ?

As I'm so close to the end of my turns I thought it only fair that Karasu should have some input on the choices.

I've got to go out for a few hours so I'll let you all mull things over.


Ted

My inclination is to vote c) because b) is a bit of a 'nothing' site but then again we'll be there quicker. :undecide:

We have 3 warriors right? Tricky! Maybe we should build more warriors instead of the spear and try to rely on offensive defense. It might be an idea to put 1 warrior in the forest to prevent the stack from taking that position.

What about the coast 1N-2E? It misses the river but gets the wheat and could stay out of trouble for a while...

I was expecting the Vikings to be able to attack somewhat later... I'd be inclined to defending on the hill, moving a couple more warriors there and hope we get some luck.

I agree with Space on building mainly warriors. If we survive the first attack, though, it may be nice to have a couple of Spears to guard our next cities.


P.S. Ted, thank you for being so fair. I know you are a gentleman. :D

I Should have said that there are 2 reg Warriors in Rome. We could use one of them to join the Warrior forted on the hill.

The Vikings will have to move across the 2 plains tiles (SW & SE of the hill) to reach Rome. We might be able to kill 1 or 2 of them there.


Ted

x-posted with Karasu :)

I opted for the Spear in Rome to maximise our survival chances if we can't kill any of the Vikings before they reach the city.

If we kill two of the VIkings in the next two turns then switching to a Warrior makes sense. If, however, we have bad luck with the RNG then we might end up with three attackers vs two defenders. In that situation I'd rather have one of the defenders be a Spear :)


Ted

Rather than mess about, I'm going to end my turns early to allow Karasu maximum opportunity to deal with the Viking threat/Settler destination issues.


Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Press button

1 - 2950BC
Exploring Warrior heads NE

2 - 2900BC
Exploring Warrior NE

IBT
Warrior fends off attacking barb
Rome Granary - Settler

3 - 2850BC
MM Rome for max food
Worker (Alice) irrigate - road
Warrior E

4 - 2800BC
Warrior E

5 - 2750BC
Warrior NE

6 - 2710BC
Alic road - NW
Warrior N
MM Rome for max pop (growth)

IBT
Viking stack (Archer & 2 Warriors) appears on hill 2W of Alice

7 - 2670BC
I was going to settle by the Cow (3 or 4SW from Rome) but the Viking forces have put paid to that plan :(
Alice E
Warrior W (to keep an eye on the Vikings)

IBT
An Iroquois scout shows up :(
Iroquois offer CB for 40gp - I propose a counter offer.
Iroquois have Masonry (unaffordable) and CB
Buy CB from Iroquois for 32gp
Declare war on Iroquois

8 - 2630BC
Alice NE
Warrior NE (hill)
Vikings nust have found some barbs as they moved NE instead of E

IBT
Rome Settler - Spear (all right handy, I did say there was room for Spears :))

9 - 2590BC
MM Rome for max production to get Spear in 4
Alice NE (Rome)

I'm handing over to Karasu at this point rather than mindlessly taking my full 10 turns.
I think I owe Karasu a turn from MB1 or MB2 anyway. Consider this repayment in full :)

Notes
A lot will depend on the next move by the Viking stack but there are several options open.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-2590BC.zip)


Ted

Got it, but I won't be able to play until tomorrow.

We have some time to keep on discussing options, if you wish...

And, Ted, thank you so much for handing me back those turns just at the right time... ;)

Soilid turns again, Ted. Too bad about the Iroq scout, but things like that happen. It is going to a the nailbiting start, just the thing to help us ignore the hubbabubba over C3C. ;)

Good luck, Karasu. I have the feeling you'll be needing it. Fluctuat nec mergitur. ;)

Originally posted by Karasu
Ted, thank you so much for handing me back those turns just at the right time... ;)
Well, I thought it better to give you a clear field :)

Seriously, I can't see an obviously "right" move so I thought it better to let you have it while there was still a bit of slack.

A lot depends on what the Viking stack does at the end of this turn. I think their most likely move is East or NE which suggests that we need at least two Warriors on the hill ASAP. The question then is will they attack the Warriors on the hill or ignore them?

If they ignore them then we might get lucky and kill one or two. If they attack then we'll have a fortified vet Warrior to bear the brunt of the attack. Sirp's Combat advisor only gives the Vikings a 32% chance of taking the hill if we have a fortified vet Warrior & a reg warrior (unfortified) in place.

We could move both reg Warriors from Rome to the hill to further reduce the Vikings chances of success but that would leave Rome with any defense if we have a run of bad luck with the RNG. Although the Spear would be ready before the stack made it to Rome.

The important thing (IMHO) is to try & stop the Vikings using the hill then forest route to Rome.


Ted

Originally posted by a space oddity
@Handy: empty cities as bait is acceptable for this game, such a thing would work in real life too IMO, but we should do our best to defend those cities from the 'outside' so to speak, just like in real life. And I think we will because the loss of a cities is too costly (as opposed to worker(-slaves)).

Yes, you must ensure you can kill all units before they reach the bait city. Plan B is to move units to the bait city if you realize you are going to leave AI units on the field. 1 AI knight down to 1 hp will beeline for an empty city. The picture above of China was a great "leader factory". Unfortunatly the game wound up as an AWE loss as I did not have the GL & fell too far beind :( in techs.
AWE is alot harder for me than AMW, can't seem to ever manage to get the GL in AWE. I can get it in a regular E game, but not AWE.

There is another rule which we should discuss: suicide galleys. The RBCiv rules disallows this, I rarely use them myself.

I vote yes, but it's a soft yes, as we can win without them. The main usefulness is:
1. We can slow down AI production as they send units our way. The downside is the AI tends to send more units than in a regular game, so you may see (not at first, but later) double digit units show up on the same turn. That's why you need the bait as in the china kill zone picutre above to direct them all to the same location.
2. If we get the GL, we get techs from 2 civs we have contact with. The other continent will be ahead of us in techs, so contact with them may net us multiple techs including chivalry before anyone on our continent gets it. If that happens we can own our continent that much sooner.
FYI - I've won a game some games where none of my suicide galleys ever made it, so we can definitely win without it. Also, it is kind of a bummer to see those shields sink.

Hmmm... I hadn't thought about getting contacts to improve the yield from the GL. I think I'll change my vote.

I agree, so the right tactic should be:

if we manage to claim the Great Library we will try our luck with suicide galleys,
if not we will safeguard the lives of the crewmembers and save our shields in the process. :)

Any objections?

But what about Joan? :love:


Ted

You'll meet her soon enough, Ted. She might even lurk on 'our' continent.

Kewl :)


Ted

I prefer to deal with situations like this by absorbing attacks, to the greatest extent possible, rather than making them. The advantage to be gained by getting the AI to attack fortified units, even on level ground, isn't trivial. I realize that the Vikings' possession of an archer makes it hard to apply this approach in its pure form, but I would hate to gamble our survival on straight warrior-versus-warrior attacks made by us--especially if we'd be using regulars.

I think we should just wait for this crisis to end and then use the settler to found a city where we really want one. Perhaps we should try to establish three front-line cities which won't need aqueducts, since the dense settlement pattern which this would require is right for this game anyway. One possibility would be a city on the hill at the far end of the lake, a city just northwest of the cow, and a city either on the river/forest (plains) tile or one tile southwest of this.

I don't see any objection in principle to our using suicide galleys. Whether we actually do so, as Space says, will probably depend on whether we get the Great Library.

Originally posted by a space oddity
I agree, so the right tactic should be:

if we manage to claim the Great Library we will try our luck with suicide galleys,
if not we will safeguard the lives of the crewmembers and save our shields in the process. :)

Any objections?

Good rule of thumb. In the Oct 2003 GOTM I had the GL and failed with my suicides. Two boats from the other continent showed up on the same turn and taught me Education. :lol:

We do need a couple of safe galleys to circle our continent when we can afford them.

Well, there is something to be said for late contact even with the GL, I've heard stories a many late techs to be gained, because the GL goes obsolete the next turn.
We are on this landmass with at least two other civs, so we'll have to time it. We will be able to see which techs they have by opening the negotiation screen. After 20 turns of war they'll all talk to us.

Space – Do you still have the Persian save? :lol:

These are my humble opinions. I like SG’s because of the dialog. There is always more than one way to win, so don’t read these as “must do” or “we’ll lose if we don’t…” just my thinking from experience.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
I prefer to deal with situations like this by absorbing attacks, to the greatest extent possible, rather than making them.

I agree. We can’t afford a 2 to 1 kill ratio, we need much better in AWM.

The advantage to be gained by getting the AI to attack fortified units, even on level ground, isn't trivial. I realize that the Vikings' possession of an archer makes it hard to apply this approach in its pure form, but I would hate to gamble our survival on straight warrior-versus-warrior attacks made by us--especially if we'd be using regulars.

We don’t have walls in Rome yet. Archers against a spear fortified behind walls gives a nice advantage. On a hill is even better. Walls are always the first build I do on any city near the front. Barracks are the next to be built. It’s going to be a while now, but eventually we will need to chop the forest near Rome to prevent the AI from using it for defense. We will have to guard our workers while we do this.

I think we should just wait for this crisis to end and then use the settler to found a city where we really want one.

I agree.

Don’t fret too much yet about the slow pace of Roman expansion. AI is directing production towards building units. If we can withstand the first stack of the AI’s, we’ll have a few turns where the settler can make a break.

If we build north next to the gems, the AI will park on the hills or mountains and we will have a hard time killing them (they often bring a spear with the archers) until we have cats & swords. We will likely lose that city if we build it now with less than a 2 spear garrison. Don’t settle until you can defend, just wait. At this point, the best defense is a good defense. I’d build spears for defense and archers (if we have the tech yet) to kill AI’s. When we get enough units to fortify the city & park on hills & mountains then we can get the gems. Kill ratio is very important in AWE. Make the AI waste shields. When we get some archers, don’t attack in a fashion that leaves the archer exposed to a counter attack the next turn. Keep them safe.

Betazed, who has an AWD victory to his credit, repeatedly told me “make sure you won’t lose before you try to win”

I realize it is a bit close but would it make sense to settle on the hill with the warrior? It is only distance 2 from the capitol, but would be a city on a hill which would be even stronger when we build walls. We can give the capitol "room to grow" behind it.

I'll be away this weekend (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1342944#post1342944). I've asked Mad to watch over this SG for me, but I'm sure you'll be able to do just fine in my absense. :) Just make sure to stay alive. :D

If the worst comes to the worst though, I do indeed still have the Persian save...

Well, I tried to play it safe. We never risked being conquered, but we have clearly lost a few turns in development.

Can't really spend much more time on the forum right now, as I am connecting from home with a lousy modem and a few people waiting for the phone line...



Pre-turn
Ok, then. I will send one warrior on the hill through the forest. Depending on how things go, Rome wil switch (or not) the Spear to warrior.

Let's see what happens


IT - One warrior of the stack detours to the South to attack a barb.


Turn 1 - 2550 BC
Rome: pop 3. MM'ed to get Spearman in 2 (at zero growth).
Move all warriors back to Rome.
Alice roading NE of Rome


IT - The two Viks are coming.


Turn 2 - 2510 BC
All warriors fortified
Lower science to 70%, now at 0 gpt. IW in 12 turns.


IT - Vikings come over the forest, the Spear cannot be made


Turn 3 - 2470 BC


IT - Viking warrior dies, Archer kills our warrior


Turn 4 - 2430 BC
Rome: Spearman - Spearman (depending on how things go I may switch it to an Archer or Barracks)


IT - Viking archers goes away to heal, warrior approaches


Turn 5 - 2390 BC
Alice starts irrigating


IT - The stupid warrior kills our spearman


Turn 6 - 2350 BC
Our Vet warrior kills his, and promotes to Elite
MM Rome to get the Spearman next turn, lux up one notch to avoit riot


Turn 7 - 2310 BC
Rome: Spearman - Barracks


Turn 8 - 2270 BC
Nothing


IT - The Archer fortifies outside our borders


Turn 9 - 2230 BC
Nothing


IT - Oh no! A blue warrior appears from the South.


Turn 10 - 2190 AD
Rome Barracks - Archer (better to attack his Archer)

I checked the diplomacy screen. It's Babylon, and they have both The Wheel and Masonry. I haven't initiated anything though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Space.jpg


Here you are (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01_BC2190.zip)

I got it.

I think I will use the settler right away. We need to grow. I am thinking of putting it behind us NE-NE-E so it is just SE of the wheat and next to a bounus grassland so it can make a warrior in 5.

Edit: I am 2 turns in. There is no iron to be seen.

What should I research
1) Writing in 36?
2) Wheel in 14?
3) Mathematics in 36?

Any opinions? The original advise was to go straight for Literature, but with no Iron I am wondering if a side-step to wheel or mathematics might be in order?

The alternative is to drive straight for Lit to get the GL. We would then have to survive 50-60 odd turns with archers and spear.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-2115BC.JPG

I will wait some for comments before playing again.

Wow, only 1280 more tiles to domination! :lol:

Since you asked for comments, here are mine. :)

We really need walls in Rome. It’s on flat land so we get only the "unit fortification" defensive bonus. Furthermore, IMHO we will lose if we build warriors to fight archers. The AI will attack, fortify wounded out of our borders, then attack again. In a few turns the wave of new & healed archers will overwhelm us. Talk abut bad luck, the Babylonians are the worst to face early in AW. The bowman has a 2 on defense, this is a bad development for the home team.

We must start killing AI units. Warriors won’t help us, they are the path toward defeat. The most effective way to kill AI units at this point is to build veteran spears in Rome & stick them behind walls. If we get a chance in a few turns we can start attacking archers on the turn they walk up (before they fortify). The key to winning at AW is kill ratio. Much better than 2 to 1, more like 10 to 1. At this point in the game our best odds are definitely on defense.

According to the Civ Battle Calculator (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html) regular archers will beat a veteran warrior fortified in a town more than half the time. A veteran archer (assuming they get promoted) will beat our veteran fortified warrior 7 times out of 10. OTOH, a veteran spear will beat an elite archers slightly over ½ of the time.

Rome without walls:
Veteran spear fortified versus regular archer wins 78%
Veteran warrior fortified versus regular archer wins 46%
Veteran spear fortified versus veteran archer wins 65%
Veteran warrior fortified versus veteran archer wins 29%
Veteran spear fortified versus veteran archer wins 53%
Veteran warrior fortified versus veteran archer wins 18%
Warriors never have the edge versus archers in Rome without walls.

Now lets’s look at what walls do:
Veteran spear fortified behind walls versus regular archer wins 88%
Veteran warrior fortified behind walls versus regular archer wins 62%
Veteran spear fortified behind walls versus veteran archer wins 79%
Veteran warrior fortified behind walls versus veteran archer wins 45%
Veteran spear fortified behind walls versus veteran archer wins 70%
Veteran warrior fortified behind walls versus veteran archer wins 32%

I’m open to discussion, but it seems that building warriors may lose the game before we ever get a chance to upgrade any of the warriors to Rome’s UU.

edit for mucho typos.

second edit for handy's oversight about our research position
Did not realize we were so close to IW until I re-read the earlier posts. It will be a bummer though if we waste a golden age on 2 cities. I still think spears are the way to go just so we can save the GA for the time we have more cities.

Getting an early GA is not going to be a problem. No Iron means no GA. If our best unit is Spear and you don't see an immediate need for horses or Catapults, I will go the writing route.

I'll give Rome walls if it doesn't have them yet.

Preturn: Dial up Babylon. I want wheel but can't afford it. I trade Alphabet for Masonry and 3 gold. Then I declare war on the Babylonians.

Move settler and weak warrior toward the new settle spot. If more units show up IBT I may move them back.

Lower science to 50% - still getting IW in 2.

IBT: Babylon warrior moves forward.

2150 BC: Move settler to chosen spot NE-NE-E near wheat. I choose this spot despite the lack of river because it is very strong in terms of immediate benefit and it is defended by our main city so I can settle it now. I notice our road to the front doesn't work very well as it crosses the river each turn.. We need more units to fix this problem. Move the elite warrior to defend our mined BG and at least have the option to attack next turn. I suspect the Babylons will pillage. Lux 10%

IBT: What a suprise. We are pillaged.

2110 BC: I don't attack across river as we have an archer that can handle the warrior. I fortify on the BG square (so we have both the river and fortify bonus as well as 2 more hp). Veil settled. Since no new units have shown up I go for the 3 fpt over the 2 spt. The worker is now building a road to connect the two towns. Raise Lux to 20%

The bad news: No iron to be seen where we have explored.

IBT:
Build archer and start on walls. Choose writing for our tech.

2070 BC: Looks like a standoff. Everyone is fortified.

IBT: A barbarian comes from the north.

2030 BC: Zzz

IBT:
Build walls and start on settler. Even the barbarian is fortified. It must be the international fortify unit week.

1990 BC: Zzz

IBT: The barb shows his disdain of civilization by unfortifying. The Nerve!

1950 BC: MM a bit. Settler in 3.

IBT: Peer pressure is too great. The barbarian fortifies again.

1910 BC: Zzz

IBT: The barbarian flees back into the woods. 3 iroquois warriors show up from the south

1870 BC: Zzz

IBT: Iroquois move forward. Settler built and spearman started.

1830 BC: Settler heads N. Worker heads to grain to irrigate it.

IBT: Iroquois advance.
Build Warrior in Veil.

1790 BC: Settler head N again. Takes a warrior with him.

IBT: Spearman nearly loses vs the regular warrior. 2nd warrior impales himself on the Elite warrior and dies. 3rd is much more polite and fortifies.

1750 BC: I am going to leave the units unmoved in Rome (and unfortified - quite shocking! The next player can decide what they want to do (we have an elite warrior and can leader-fish). It occurs to me that the game was given to me a turn early. I was supposed to play 2150 to 1750. The next player should just play his 10 to 1500BC.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-1750BC.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01_BC1750.zip)

Originally posted by Greebley
Getting an early GA is not going to be a problem. No Iron means no GA. If our best unit is Spear and you don't see an immediate need for horses or Catapults, I will go the writing route.

I'll give Rome walls if it doesn't have them yet.

Sat 11-08-03 Got it playing tonight. Will do the write up tonight or Sunday if I start to fade. Hail Ceasar, hail Baccus.

Iron with a 2 city GA, or no Iron. :crazyeye: These are not the best of options. I'm playing a solo game AWM game now as Carthage. The Carthage UU is awesome. 2.3.1. In my game I had a most excellent 2 city GA. :lol:

Cats are the great equalizer, and we really need horsemen, but we most likely lose without the GL, so Lit. seems the best choice. Where in the vast Roman Empire do we start a prebuild? :lol:

Good job on the max science. AW is not the game for 40 turn gambits (exceptions for the period when we have the GL or if we need the $$ for upgrades)

The more AWM games I play the more I believe Industriousness is most powerful trait. Fast road network & mining is the key to early defensive success. Militaristic is good for barracks & extra promotions, but I vote fast workers as the key.

Ya, the money from a 40 turn gambit seemed...well... useless. We have zilch to spend it on. Only if we met a 4th enemy civ or get Iron which seemed dubious propositions. As you say max research is the way to go :)

Note that there is a settler under the warrior to the north. I am not sure exactly what my plan was with him. I think he was fleeing Cylon tyranny or something like that. I felt we needed more towns.

One thing seems very important, given our lack of iron. If we ever get another chance to make pre-war trades, we should try to get the new civ's map, in preference to any tech. If we know where iron is, we can perhaps put together a plan to seize it. If we just have to push forward blindly (whenever that might be possible) and hope...I don't know.

I was thinking we could explore with a spearman once we have things under control in our main cities.

We could use it to pillage too.

12:30pm. I’ll post this & the save and edit for spelling tomorrow. Hope the writing is clear enough to follow. Rome is in pretty good shape with no AI units in sight!

Pre Turn End of 1750BC

Diplo – No one likes us.
Iroquois: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 65 gold
Viking: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 51 gold
Babylon: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 7 gold. I wonder if he wears that hat in the summer…

Rome grows in 3 and will require happy juice.
Switch Veii to Barracks. I can change to walls if the crowd heads that way.
Can’t decide what to do with the settler. If Veii was one tile SE, then I could go 3 tiles NE then 1 tile N and each city would have 9 tiles to work. Wish Veii was on coast right behind the river. Nice defense bonus & no aqueduct.

Below is a dot map of likely future Roman cities. I know if I go for the Red Dots AI will attack the least fortified city. The red dots also require irrigation to grow. We are having trouble protecting the city, much less the worker. If I settle next to the Gems the AI parks on the Hill & mountains. The purple dot where the archer stands is an excellent location. The rivers are on two sides of the tile. Eventually we can park on the hill and force the AI to attack across the water. If we settle the purple dot now, the AI will raze the city for sure. The blue dot has grasslands we can mine, is far away from the battle from (for now) and can turn out some shields. The blue dot should probably chop build a temple then pre-build the GL. I hate to settle 1 tile away from the coast. The temple will pull in 5 grass tiles and 1 hill for the GL pre-build. The orange dot is probably the best pick for the next city. The settler is already there, and time is of the essence. We can chain units from this city up to the front after it starts to produce. We need another worker (1.5 per city in AW) & that’s probably what I’ll start with.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01_BC1750_Pic.JPG

It appears we will have no iron for a several centuries. I hope we have horses up north somewhere…

Fortify spear & archer. I don’t want to attack a fortified warrior in a forest. The Roman vet archer is a 4 to 1 favorite to kill the fortified Viking regular warrior. But if I lose 2 hp in the process, Babylon’s warrior is a 6 to 4 favorite to kill me. We can’t afford to trade units with the AI. I’ll wait. Hit enter.

Turn 1 1725 BC
Barb turns tail & runs into the fog. Settler & warrior move to orange dot. We need a warrior to protect our worker from the barbs. I switch Veii back to a warrior build.
Rome – Spear in 3, grow in 2
Veii - Warrior in 3, grow in 4. Worker irrigating wheat near Veii.

Turn 2 1700 BC
Antium founded
No AI moves, no AI new arrivals. I suppose they are waiting for reinforcements. Let’s hope the RNG is true to form and they impale their warriors on our vet spears.
There are two barbs up north. One on the hills and one by the fish.
Rome (5) – Spear in 2, grow in 2
Veii (2)- Warrior in 2, grow in 4. Worker irrigating wheat near Veii
Antium (1) – Build worker. We need roads & mines.

Turn 3 1675 BC
No AI moves, no AI new arrivals. One barb goes to the fog.
Rome (6) – Spear in 1, grow in 1. Up the happy juice to 20%
Veii (2)- Warrior in 1, grow in 1. What a difference water makes! Worker building road on the wheat near Veii.
Antium (1) – Worker due in 9.
I hope we get our empire settled before the bars get horses.

Decision time. Do I attack with the vet archer (he’s a 4 to 1 favorite) and then bring the spear (spear won’t be able to fortify) in after him for cover? The veteran spear would be a 9 to 1 favorite in the forest to win on defense. Good odds to kill 2 units.
Archer wins in a rout and promotes to elite. VetSpear move in for cover.
Good year for the Romans. Bacchanalia :band: @ 7, dress is casual.

Turn 4 1650 BC
The AI’s all look sad. Bet they heard how much fun the Bacchanalia was. Rumor has it Joan snuck in.
Research set to 70%, writing due in 14 turns.
Happiness set to 20%.
Rome is earning zero GPT. Rome has eight gold in the vault after party expenses.
No AI moves, no AI new arrivals. One barb goes to the fog.
Rome (6) – Settler due in 4, grow in 3.
Veii (3)- Barracks in 7, grow in 7. The new warrior goes to protect the worker from barbs. The worker is building a road on the wheat. Watch happiness in Veii.
Antium (1) – Worker due in 8.
The archer & spear move to the hill. I want to attack the fortified archer before his friends show up. If I waste the warrior next, the archer will counter attack the unfortified spear. Spear is a 70% favorite in that fight. But if I get the archer first, the spear is a 90% favorite over the warrior. Downside is it takes a turn to get into position, but that’s what I’m going to do. We have a good view from the hill, so if a stack of 4 archers shows up we can always retreat back to the forests towards Rome.

Turn 5 1625 BC
New barb shows up in the North. Research still set to 70%, writing due in 13 turns.
Happiness set to 20%.
Rome is earning zero GPT, and has eight gold in the vault.
No AI moves, no AI new arrivals. Two barbs up north
Rome (6) – Settler due in 3, grow in 3. Rome should probably go Settler / Spear / Settler / Spear for a few centuries. We can send 1 spear to cities in the back. If we settle towards the AI we will need 3 veteran spears as an escort. Building roads to the new cities towards the front also takes a lot of spears.
Veii (3)- Barracks in 6, grow in 6. Watch happiness in Veii when it goes to 4. May need a warrior for police duty and eventually a temple.
Antium (1) – Worker due in 7.
Elite archer takes out the Viking archer. The spear moves in for cover. The archer is down to three points. He can heal in no mans land.

Turn 6 1600 BC
There is a barb poised to attack Antium. Our fortified warrior is a 4 to 1 favorite.
Rome (6) Settler due in 2, grow in 2.
Veii (3) Barracks in 5, grow in 5
Antium (1) worker due in 6.
Worker moves to next square to road.
Archer is healing. Will have 4 points next turn. I’m in no hurry to attack unless friends show up.

DIPLO Check:
Diplo – No one likes us.
Iroquois: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 65 gold. No change in all these turns.
Viking: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 51 gold. No change!
Babylon: Wheel & Mysticism; 3 cities; 7 gold. No change?
Hard to believe.

Turn 7 1575 BC
Warrior beats barb in Antium, he does not get a promotion.
Archer healing.
Worker building road.
Rome (6) Settler due in 1, Rome will grow in 1 turn
Veii (3) Barracks in 4, grow in 4
Antium (1) worker due in 5, grow in 5 (due in 7 last turn. What gives?)
Our worker moves to next square to build a road.
Archer is healing. Will have 4 points next turn. I’m in no hurry to attack unless friends show up.

Turn 8 1550 BC
Regular spear and Settler head to the blue dot.
Elite Archer takes out warrior, signs book deal, wants to renegotiate his contract. Spear follows, asks for autograph.
Rome (4) Spear due in 3, grow in 5.
Veii (3) Barracks in 3, grow in 3
Antium (1) worker due in 4, grow in 4
No barbs in sight.

Turn 9 1525 BC
Settler & spear heading to blue dot. There is a barb camp on the mountain next to the blue dot.
Archer & Spear head to forest on the way to Rome.
Move slider down to 10%. Should have done that the turn when the settler was built.
Research now at 80%, writing due in 7. Happiness is at 10%, we are earning zero per turn. Be sure to watch Rome each turn & set the sliders.

Turn 10 1500 BC
Rome’s influence expands.
Archer returns to Rome to a hero’s welcome. Party @ the palace at 8pm. BYOB.
Worker moves to bonus grass by Veii to mine.

When you found the next city you will pop the barb camp.
Be sure to micro manage Rome each turn & adjust the research & luxury sliders.

Veii will grow next turn. Send a unit from Rome for police or turn up the happy gas.

The group needs to decide where & when to start a pre build for the GL. Perhaps we should get it started in Veii, build veteran spears in Antium, and build workers out of the new city.

There will be a worker coming out of Antium next turn. Antium is further away from Rome than the Blue dot will be in RCP terms, so build workers in Antium and a barracks in the new city. The next city after that probably needs to go way up north to the fish. We can get gems safely up there far from the AI and build workers out of there. Once you found that, Switch Antium over to building military. Let’s hope we meet a new friend that will trade writing for math! We could use some cats and a map to the IRON.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01_BC150_Pic.JPG


Rome 1500 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01_BC1500.SAV)

Originally posted by Greebley
I was thinking we could explore with a spearman once we have things under control in our main cities.

We could use it to pillage too.

If we get a leader and can't use it for Pyramids, and we have the b@lls to see if we can build the GL brick by brick, we can build an Army with the leader and do some Offensive Pillaging (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64471) which might let us know where the IRON is.

I'm a little surprised we have seen no AI units. Usually they come in pairs early on.

Gosh I hope they are at war with each other, could we be that lucky?

A tough start, but it looks like we are making some progress.

I had been tempted to settle Veii myself, but I didn't want to risk loosing a settler before getting a couple of units out. I think the spot was a good pick, letting us use the wheat straight away.

The blue spot also looks good, but I wouldn't settle further north unless we find horses there.

It seems instead that the time is favourable to try and claim the pink spot. It would be nice to get a city next to the western wheat too. In that respect, I would suggest to move the dot to 1 (good defence and fresh water, but a bit far) or to 2 (closer to home and fresh water, but worse defence and possibly too much overlap with Rome).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Settlement.jpg

I would explore a bit to the north/north-west of site 1 hoping there is iron there.
Is prebuilding for the Great Library compatible with researching Mathematics before Literature? It is surely early to start worrying, but if we have to spend a lot of time without iron, we will have problems when we start seeing enemy Swordsmen at our doors...

Good round, handy :goodjob:, and an admirably precise set of instructions for the turns to come. Now I know how it feels to play after me. :D

Karasu, I incline towards your site 1 too. Its (very slightly) forward position could be an asset, if it lures the AI into attacking a hill town with walls.

I also think that Site 1 is the best. It is on a hill and with walls will be able to hold its own with better odds than Rome. We can also add another city between Rome and the hill town (my thought was NE of the 2). to keep the 3 movement. I don't think that would be too crowded and gets more squares producing. Site 1 also neatly seals off that "back entrance" to our lands

I definitely think that taking advantage in the lull in AI troops and try to (carefully) push our front lines forward is a good idea.

1500 (0): Veii switches barracks --> palace prebuild. This is the only reasonable place to prebuild the Great Library, and the town doesn't need a barracks first. The prebuild is an absolute necessity, since without iron our chances of doing a lot of attacking and so getting the GL with a GL ;) are drastically diminished.

Rome spearman --> settler.


1475 (1): Our new spearman heads northwest to do a little scouting.

Cumae is founded on the agreed site, and we automatically disperse the Cimmerian camp for 25 gold.

I cut the research rate to 70%, with Writing still due in five turns.

Antium worker --> worker.


1450 (2): Writing performs a "tech jump" and is now due in one turn, as other civs discover it.

The good-natured Iroquois are only annoyed with us, even though we're at war.

We discover Writing, and a difficult decision arises. There's a lot to be said for Karasu's suggestion that we try to sneak in Mathematics/catapults before Literature. But I'd hate to miss the Great Library by a turn or two through trying to be cute, and we're under no military pressure right now. I choose Literature.


1425 (3): Zzzz....


1400 (4): Rome settler --> spearman.


1375 (5): The Cimmerian warrior displaced when our foundation of Cumae dispersed his camp dies attacking Antium.


1350 (6): Our spearman scouting in the northwest establishes that there's nothing up there but a very small peninsula, with a gold hill but no iron.


1325 (7): Rome spearman --> spearman.


1300 (8): We found Neapolis on the hill at the north end of the lake, and begin building walls there.


1275 (9): Zzzzzz......


1250 (10): In a nutshell, a very quiet round in which I got away with some minor risks, as no enemy units appeared at any point.

My idea for the spearman outside Neapolis is that it should take up position on a hill, so that we can see a little farther forward, but should stay close enough that it can beat any enemies it might spot back to Neapolis.

The next worker out of Antium should probably build a road to Neapolis as its first task.

The save:

1250 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-1250BC.zip)

Our homeland now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-1250BC.JPG

Well played. The palace is a good call I think.

I wonder if we can get a city S of rome. I would think 3 squares SW of Rome near the cow would be good. The AI probably is fighting one another.

I think we desperately need more workers. It might be worth switching Cumae to a worker and get one next turn. I think this would be much more useful than the barracks as Cumae will be slow building units unless it is has improvements.

If we want to keep things simple and found just one more city directly in front of Rome, the site three to the SW is absolutely correct. The only argument against it is that it's in the wrong place if we want to squeeze in two cities which won't need aqueducts west and southwest of Rome.

We do need workers badly, but we've already written off one city in this cause (Antium) and I'm not sure we can afford another. We have workers in the vicinity of Cumae, and it'll soon have mined grassland tiles to work, at least.

Wow guys, great progress. Looks like our vulnerable baby turned in to a healthy toddler over the weekend. :goodjob:

"Got it". I'll play tomorrow.

Very good play to go and grab the hill. We may have the makings of a good "bait" city in Cumae. IF we heavily garrison units in Neapolis and Rome, and hook up the gems in Cumae the AI will likely attack Cumae because it's a lux city, especially if it is lighjtly defended. We can park spears on the mountains behind in case we need to move in for protection. There is nice flat land all around the front of Cumae. We must hold all the high ground. Placing cats on the mountain (must have roads first) behind Cumae will allow us to move into firing position, kill AI's, then retreat to the hills to lure in the next bunch. Any low AI hp units that try to limp away from Cumae can be finished off as the pass Rome.

Be thinking about the best place to lure the AI into an attack.

I don't think we will see many more AI warriors. Mostly spears & bows until the swords show up.

Good decision on the prebuild BTW and the city choice. Better than the one I placed on the dot map.

Very good idea to switch Cumae to a worker. We have lots of tiles that need improving and roads build.

Lastly, I can't ever recall this much time between AI attacks. They are probably either far away, at war with each other, or both. We need to try and find the Iron during this break in the attacks.

Mates -you're just too good, even without Iron... ;)

I just wanted to point that the Bab warrior appeared to come from down there

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-Ops.JPG

so that could be a land bridge...

That's also the general direction the first Iroquois scout appeared from. So you might well be right Karasu.


Ted

Goals:
I chose AW because strangely enough war is not something I give a lot of attention in my games. So my first goal is: try to keep down the number of mistakes. :)
Settle near the cow.
Scout for Iron and/or landbridge.

Pre-turn:
Everything OK. We are strong compared to the Iroqs and Babs. Weak vs the Viks.

IT:
Rome Spear -> Settler
Still no AI is sight.

1225BC - turn 1:
Alice road.
Bathsheba moves to forest.
Fortify spear in Neapolis.
Now, what to do with the spear in the forest? I will carefully scout the surroundings. Hope this is OK, but i feel we need the info and will have to use the lull in AI movement.
Spear moves on the hill.

Diplo-check:
Viks know the Spanish, have the Wheel and Myst, 4 cities, 37g
Iroqs know the Spanish, have the Wheel and Myst, 4 cities, 48g
Babs know the Spanish, have the Wheel and Myst, 4 cities, 20g

IT:
Antium Worker -> Worker
No AI movement

1200BC - turn 2:
New worker moves North to the BG.
Bathsheba starts road.
MM Cumea 1 turn work the forest, to get the Rax 1 turn earlier.
Spear moves S to next hill and finds a 2hp barb.

No changes on the diplo front.

IT:
The viks arrive with 2 - 4/4 Swords and 2 - 3/3 Archers. :eek:
Neapolis Walls -> Rax
Barb shows up near Chap-Worker.

1175BC - turn 3:
Retreat worker into Antium.
Move spear to hill West of Cumae to protect both the workers.
Rome has grown so move slider to (0.8.2)

Diplo-check.
The Viks have a new city, other than that no changes.

IT:
One Vik Archer goes S to kill a barb, the other units move on the hill where our Spear was last turn.
The barb in the west, moves off.

1150BC - turn 4:
Alice moves to assist Bathsheba.
Chap goes to Veii, he will connect Rome and Neapolis.
Spear moves to forest near Neapolis. My hope is that the stack will follow him to the now-walled Neapolis.

Diplo - no changes

IT:
The stack follow alright.
Cumae Rax -> Spear

1125BC - turn 5:
Spear reaches Neapolis, now it's defended by 3 vet Spearmen. Will they still attack? Remember they are with 2 - 4/4 Swords and 1 3/3 Archer now. The other Archer is probably fortified on that hill and we'll see him back later.

Diplo - Iroqs have a worker available for a few turns now, not bad.

IT:
The Viking stack moves off. I'll move the spear from Neapolis to see if they come back. Maybe with the Archer.
Rome Settler -> Spear

1100BC - turn 6:
I will move the Settler with 2 Spears and an Archer in the forest. If the Viks stack moves back to Neapolis we probably can settle the spot near the cow. I'll watch the Vik movement carefully.
Move 1 spear from Neapolis West.

Diplo - the Iroqs have an extra city, the Babs have Math now

IT:
The stack indeed comes back now. Maybe I should rename the Spear Dances-with-Stacks.

1075BC - turn 7:
Move the Settler stack on the hill.
Fortify Dances-with-Stacks next to Neapolis.

Diplo - Viks have dispersed a camp, now they have 62g. Babs still have monopoly on Math.

IT:
The Viks stack is now within striking distance from Neapolis. I will move the spear back in to see whether they'll still attack, I can move him back out again when the move off, more turns gained.

1050BC - turn 8:
The Settler stack is now in position. :)
I have to move the slider because Rome has grown and misses it's seconds defender. The new spear will be ready next turn.
Move Dances back in Neapolis.

IT:
The 2 swords attack, both die, leaving 2 spears at 2/4. The Archer moves north.
Rome Spear -> Settler

1025BC - turn 9:
Move some troops around, because a barb treatens Antium.
Veii has grown and is unhappy, luckily Lit will still be in at 3 turns at (2.5.3) for 0gpt, 10g in the

bank.
Pompeii founded -> Walls
Move Dances out to protect Chap and maybe trick the Archer into attacking.

Diplo - no changes

IT:
The Barb kills a reg warrior in Antium :mad: and is redlined.
The Vik Archer fortifies.

1000BC - turn 10:
Can move the slider back a bit more (3.4.3). I will gamble and try to kill the redlined barb on the hill before he fortifies. Phew, that worked.

We are now average compared to the Viks and iroqs, strong vs the Babs.

Our lands:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-1000BC.JPG

----------> Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-1000BC.zip)

I did not scout the area you indicated Karasu, but this will be easier now that Pompeii is where it is. It could be a good site for a city too and if it does turn out to be a landbridge we'll have a Panama. :)

Nicely done. :goodjob:
got it!
I'm up in another SG today, so I will play this tomorrow night.

Only another one, MB? ;)

Beautiful playing with fire, there, Space. And we finally settled that Cow!! :thumbsup:

What can I say? I'm addicted. :)

Nice turns Space!! Rome is growing.

One AI tactic to watch for.

The AI loves to send units on a galley to our poorly defended rear. It may seem like a waste to park a spear in a rear city, and build walls in them, but if they are weakly defended, they will get attacked. I've learned the hard way to watch for galleys and "shadow" them along the coast with a unit that can kill them the turn they land, lest they have a chnace to fortify. Don't assume AI galleys are just exploring, they are probably not . Usually the first wave of galleys carries 1 unit, after that they will come on the galley in pairs. Usually the second wave of galleys will carry 2 swords or archer + spear). Multiple galleys at the same time is a real bummer. The northern coast has many mountains for the AI to land on. They can land on and stay on mountains all the way to Cumae. Long range plan would be to fortify a spear on the mountain North of Cumae so the AI has to attack from the hills. We don’t want to have to retake our own cities.

Bad news about the Vet Swords from the Vikings. Cats + archers have will give us a chance to kill some on offense.

Dances-with-Stacks? :lol:

Good round, Space. :goodjob:

And an exciting and enjoyable dance it was! Especially with the happy ending it got. :)

Rather uneventfull I'm afraid. Nevertheless here is what little took place.

1000BC: Pre-turn
Everything looks good.The viking archer may have to be repelled at some point, but not yet.

IBT:
Another viking archer shows up at Neapolis.

975BC:
Adjust sliders for Literature.
Worker goes to road gems.
Our archer starts towards Neapolis

IBT:
I want to see if we have horses nearby. So I set research to wheel.
We can't explore ATM. Set science to 50%. -1gpt defecit.
Antium worker - worker

950BC:
Change Veii to Great Library.

IBT:
Vikings want an audience. I decline.
Archer attacks spear and dies.
Pompeii walls - rax
Cumae spear - worker
Rome Settler - Settler

925BC:
Nothing happened

IBT:
Neapolis rax - archer

900BC:
Elite archer kills last viking archer.

875BC:
Still quiet

IBT:
Babylonians request audience. Nope.

850BC:
Spot barb galley. Does that mean Map making is around?

IBT:
Cumae worker - archer

825BC:
All quiet
Adjust slider for Wheel

IBT:
Spain contacts us. She offers wheel for Lit. No. I can't see any of her units so she must have traded for our contact.
Declare war on Spain.
Learn wheel, research maths
Rome Settler - archer
Another viking archer shows up.

800BC:
There are horses on the hills to the southwest of Pompeii. We should get HBR by the time they are hooked up.
Found Pisae - Walls
Elite archer kills archer.

IBT:
Hmmmm.. another Vik archer and two warriors appear. Our elite archer is sat on a hill SW of Neapolis. He might die soon. I'll send a spear there to help out a bit.

775BC: Elite Archer kills reg warrior.

IBT:
Pompeii rax - spear. Yes I know MB builds a spear, alert the men in white coats.

750BC:
Nothing happened.

There are a couple of warriors knocking about. Nothing to get excited about. There is a settler in Pompeii, on his way to settle on the hill either next to the horses or directly on the horses.

A couple of workers are irrigating tiles around Veii. This is a :smoke: of course since Veii isn't going above size 6 any time soon. Sorry about that.

Here is the >>save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-750BC.SAV)

There are a few cities at size 3 now. We could peel off a couple of settlers and put a couple of cities on the line of Hills. With only one lux and no iron we need the land. On reflection ICS may have been a better move.

Still, we're in good shape AFAICT, but then this is my first AW. ;)

We are in much better shape have now that we know where the horses are. :) Good job.

I lkie your idea of lining the hills with cities. We can move horses around and defend pretty well from there.

Looks like good turns, MB. I did not have time to look at the save yet, but I will tonight.

Ted, you're UP.

Got it



Ted

Pre-flight checks... OK

Press button
Gems are hooked up
Viking Warrior moves South

1 - 730BC
Spear/Archer S
Settler/Spear SW
Lux 10%
Research 70% (Maths in 8 @ +2gpt)

IBT
Viking Warriors run away
Rome Archer - Spear
Antium Worker (Flo) - Walls

2 - 710BC
Flo to Veii (road to Pompeii)
Worker (Gertie, N Antium) mine - N
Alice SE
Archer fort Rome
Spear/Settler SW - spot 2 Bab Warriors on Horses Hill
Archer/Spear S
Archer SW

IBT
Vikings head back
Babs NE

3 - 690BC
Settler/Spear SW
Elite Archer kills Bab Warrior
Alice to S Rome
Bathsheba road - joins Alice
Flo to Rome
Hilda (E Rome) irrigate - road
Gertie road

IBT
Vikings move N
Bab Bowman appears W of Horses Hill
Vet Archer kills Viking Warrior (3/4) - spots Viking Settler/Spear WSW
Elite Archer kills Bab Warrior (3/5)
Settler/Spear W to Horses Hill
Spear to Horses Hill
Alice & Bathsheba road to SW
Flo S

IBT
Vet Archer kills attacking Warrior & promotes (2/5)
Viking settler founds on spot

4 - 650BC
Ravenna founded on Horses Hill - Walls
Flo joins Road Gang

IBT
Rome Archer - Settler
We get the Forbidden Palace message
Neapolis Archer - Spear

5 - 630BC
Hilda road - move to SW Rome
Gertie (S Pisae) road - move to S Antium
Chap mine - move to SW Rome
Flo & Bathsheba road - move to Pompeii

IBT
Antium Walls - Spear
Cumae Archer - Spear
Pompeii Spear - Archer

6 - 610BC
Gertie SW, mine (was irrigated Wheat)
Alice, Bathsheba & Flo start road to E Ravenna with Spear escort
Research 80% (1 turn @ -2gpt)

IBT
Maths - HBR
Pisae Walls - Spear
Seville (Spain) Colossus

7 - 590BC
Leave Research 80% (HBR in 4 @ -2gpt)
Zzz...

IBT
Another Bab Bowman arrives NNW of Ravenna
Viking Warrior appears 2NW of Ravenna

8 - 570BC
fort Archers on hill
Road Gang roads...

IBT
Elite Archer kills attacking Bowman
Viking Warrior moves to hill N Ravenna
2 Viking Archers show up 2NW of Ravenna
Rome Settler - Lib
Neapolis Archer - Spear

9 - 550BC
Settler moves to E Neapolis
Elite Archer kills vet Warrior (N Ravenna)
Research 70% (still 2 turns @ +3gpt)

IBT
Our elite Archer (N Ravenna) is killed by Viking Archer (red-lined)
Vet Archer kills attacking Bowman

10 - 530BC
Hilda & Chap move to Cow (NW Pompeii) ready to irrigate next turn
Vet Archer to Ravenna to heal
Elite Archer (Ravenna) N (lookout)
Settler to NW Neapolis with Spear escort
Research 50% (HBR next turn @ +5gpt)

Our Empire
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-530BC.jpg

Notes
HBR & road to Horses both complete next turn.
We should have at least one town building a Library. Presently Rome is building one, I suggest that Neapolis starts one after the current Spear then Pompeii.
Gertie (Wheat, NE Veii) is mining the Wheat to speed GL.
Hilda & Chap (NW Pompeii) are poised to irrigate the Cow.
The Settler (NW Neapolis) is for SW of the Gold hill. Origianlly I thought of it as just a filler to increase our free military entitlement but it might do for our first bait city. It's not ideal but there isn't much else available at the moment.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-530BC.zip)


Ted

Wow, Ted, that was quick. :goodjob:

Karasu, if you want to reconsider playing before you leave, just say so. If not, Greebley is UP.

Sigh.
I can't play today, and tomorrow... 'Last day at work', anything can happen :eek:

I don't want to hold the SG. Skip me :sad:

Ok, sorry for trying to seduce you... ;)

Greebley you're UP.

Nice job on the horses Ted.

The Settler (NW Neapolis) is for SW of the Gold hill. Origianlly I thought of it as just a filler to increase our free military entitlement but it might do for our first bait city. It's not ideal but there isn't much else available at the moment.

Nice call. Looks good.

Originally posted by handy900
Nice job on the horses Ted. I originally wanted to settle on the hill SE of the Horses to allow us to fit another city in the hills but there were too many enemy units around to chance it.


Ted

I got it and will play tonight.

Since I am less experienced with the AW varient - some questions:

I was thinking if I can find a spare spearman to send it S as a scout. Does this seem reasonable?

Would building a town between our southmost town (Ravenna I think) and the one on the lake (neapolis I think) make sense? I was thinking on the hill 2 squares N of Ravenna. This assumes I can afford another settler. The advantage is that with a road we have 2-3 squares between cities. The disadvantage is that it is another city to guard and it is close to the grey city.

Should any considerations be made about the close grey city? Or should we be in turtle mode and ignoring it?

If we make the city SW of the gold a bait city, does that mean we want to clear the forest outside neapolis?

Originally posted by Greebley
I was thinking if I can find a spare spearman to send it S as a scout. Does this seem reasonable? By all means :)

Originally posted by Greebley
Would building a town between our southmost town (Ravenna I think) and the one on the lake (neapolis I think) make sense? I was thinking on the hill 2 squares N of Ravenna. This assumes I can afford another settler. The advantage is that with a road we have 2-3 squares between cities. The disadvantage is that it is another city to guard and it is close to the grey city. I think that might cramp Pompeii which has a bit of potential in the medium term.

Originally posted by Greebley
Should any considerations be made about the close grey city? Or should we be in turtle mode and ignoring it? Ignore it until we have Horsemen. Perhaps ignore it then.

Originally posted by Greebley
If we make the city SW of the gold a bait city, does that mean we want to clear the forest outside neapolis? Correct. Road the other side of the river between Pompeii & Ravenna (river tiles roaded generate an extra gp). Carry on roading up the side of the lake to Neapolis (easier troop movements between cities) and then chop the forest. Sit back and kill lots of warriors & Archers :D


Ted

Preturn (1): Things were in tip-top shape. The only thing I did was switch forests in one city from a front line forest to a behind the line forest so wandering units would upset some build on me. Note that this is turn 1 to get us back on track.

IBT: The 1 hp viking archer is replaced by a veteran swordsmen.

510 BC (2): We finish horses and I start toward Monarchy (which seems to be the most useful choice though I would like map making). We can get Mysticism at top speed (4 turns). The elite archer retreats from the sword back into town.

IBT: Everyone fortifies. I have a sense of deja-vu.

490 BC (3): Worker finishes mining wheat. Road gets horses to Rome. I switch Cumae and Pompeii to horsemen. Send the archer from Cumae to Veil so I can send the elite warrior to the front to give the warrior opportunity to hit 1 hp units and get us a leader. I don't want to raise Lux so the warrior doesnt yet move. Just the archer. Cumae is happy enough as is to nod need the archer.

IBT: Another viking sword arrives.
Neapolis: Spear->Horse

470 BC (4): Hispalis built on peninsula and starts a worker. Science adjusted to 50 from 60 - still in 2.

IBT: Our guest list is now the Babylon: 1archer, Viking: 2 veteran swords and regular archer, Iroquois spear.

450 BC (5): Change my mind on Neapolis and switch to a catapult. I need to be able to bombard to get good odds fighting pillaging spearmen. Change Hispalis to walls (almost forgot to build them first). Science lowered to 40.

IBT: Viking force advances. A barbarian also shows up.

430 BC (6): Barbarian gets our archer to elite. Get Mysticism. Since I see little use for cash in the short term, I raise the science rate to 90% (after checking to make sure noone has met anyone new - the one use of money). We are at -5 gpt with 84 in the bank.

IBT: Viking swordsman and archer attack and lose. Last sword fortifies.
Antium: Spear->Catapult
Pompeii: Horse->Spear

410 BC (7): Iroquois spear is blocking my ability to complete the Pompeii to Neapolis road.

IBT: More units show up Viking have sword, archer, spear, Iroquois have spear, wearrior, archer, babylon is still at 1 archer.
Ottoman build Oracle in Edrine

390 BC (8): Bombard spearman succeeds. Decide horse vs 2 hp spear not worth it in the forest.

IBT: Another Iroqois archer appears.

370 BC (9): Finally decide I can afford to send a spear south. Actually SW seems best as the Vikings tend to come from that way more than from the S. Babylon also has iron, but no troops yet. The AI's are doing well in tech. They are close to the middle ages I think.

IBT: More Iroquois junk units appear. Viking spear near Neapolis.
Rome: Library->Horse

350 BC (10): Again attacked spear with catapult and did a point of damage. MM Rome to 10 shields for horse in 3.

I didn't do much oher than turtle. There just wasn't a lot of opportunity. I started on catapults so hopefully we can damage stuff enough so attacks are reasonable. Horses too so we can attack and retreat.

I didn't switch a town to library. I leave that to the next player to choose.

Pompeii was MM'd to give it an extra shield to get its build in 2. It can be re-adjusted next turn to get full food without delaying the build.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-BC350.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-350BC.zip)

Well done Greebly.

Looks like I'm up. I'll get the save when I get home from work and play Thursday night. Looking at the screen shot above it appears we have lots of tiles to improve and room to sqeeze in a few more cities. We do need to have at least 1 core city working on library, marketplace, etc. at all times so I'll look at that.


TEAM INPUT REQUESTED
It looks like the Romans have a good shot at the GL. The only time I set science low in an AW game is the GL period to build cash for upgrades. If the GL is ours, we get research for free, so it’s a good time to build the bank. Without Iron I guess the first upgrade will be knights when Chivalry comes in.

Since we have math, lit and HRB, does the team want to "roll the dice" and go low on science now and bet we get the GL, or play it safe & research until we know we have the GL. An immediate Knight upgrade would be nice and perhaps give us a window to go on offense for a few turns. Wouldn't it be sweet to get super lucky with a suicide galley, contact the other continent & get chivalry well before our local AI friends.

I can’t play for a few hours, so cast your votes.

Knights require iron as well (unless you are India).

The only upgrade we can do is archer->longbowmen and eventually spear->muskets (if we have salt). Note that this may make archers the best build once we get enough horsemen for our immediate purposes.

[Edit: For below; I think the AI's have map-making so we don't need to research it ourselves, of course. We want it for the reasons below, but only need to research it ourselves if the great library is a bust]

For this reason, I would keep research at maximum. Get Monarchy and MapMaking before stopping. Mapmaking could be very useful if we could find a two-bit island with iron. A rushed harbor would give us the iron - even a single turn could allow us to upgrage. Also for monarchy, we may get there first so even with the GL the research may benefit us.

I wonder if it might not be a bad idea to build a an army with our first GL, get a cheap win, and then send it out as a scout. The computer does not usually attack armies. We can use this to scout out the Viking (and babylon) iron and see if we are going to be able to get it anytime soon.

1st GL for an Army. Army picks an easy win. Heroic epic. 2nd GL hurries Heroic Epic :D


Ted

I agree with continuing research. It would already be harsh if we fail the Great Library, so we should *not* put all our cards on it. Not getting a wonder doesn't break a game. Not researching when you can't trade, will.

In a normal game, this would certainly be the time to go to minimum research. But in our situation, it could be damaging to wait for Map Making and Monarchy until the Great Library produces them, so I think we should continue doing our own research at least until we have those two techs.

Some points of detail:

1. If the Viking swordsman and archer near Neapolis move north next turn, we'll have no good way of reinforcing Hispalis before they can attack its inadequate garrison (one spearman). We need to get reinforcements moving out of Neapolis towards Hispalis right now, before pressing Enter. To keep our defensive position balanced, we could also move a spearman out of Rome towards Neapolis and a horseman from Neapolis to Rome.

2. Pisae is building a spearman without a barracks. It should either switch to a barracks, or--if it's going to become our new worker pump, which seems reasonable to me--to a worker, with minor waste of shields.

3. We can turn the research rate down a notch and still discover Polytheism in three turns.

Originally posted by Greebley
Knights require iron as well (unless you are India).

The only upgrade we can do is archer->longbowmen and eventually spear->muskets (if we have salt). Note that this may make archers the best build once we get enough horsemen for our immediate purposes.

[Edit: For below; I think the AI's have map-making so we don't need to research it ourselves, of course. We want it for the reasons below, but only need to research it ourselves if the great library is a bust]

For this reason, I would keep research at maximum. Get Monarchy and MapMaking before stopping. Mapmaking could be very useful if we could find a two-bit island with iron. A rushed harbor would give us the iron - even a single turn could allow us to upgrage. Also for monarchy, we may get there first so even with the GL the research may benefit us.

I wonder if it might not be a bad idea to build a an army with our first GL, get a cheap win, and then send it out as a scout. The computer does not usually attack armies. We can use this to scout out the Viking (and babylon) iron and see if we are going to be able to get it anytime soon.

You are right, I totally forgot about the Iron needs for Knights.

Agree we make an army first. We can use it to both scout and pillage.

Contiune on with max research.

N Pike, agree with your comments, I'll implement them my first turn.

Since the vikings have iron, and we must have it for our UU, knights and railroad, have we considered an archer rush? The vikings are not going to be that strong since they have lost a lot of shields to us already. I want their iron.

We would have to find out where it is...

"Something hidden - go and find it!"
Rudyard Kipling

:D


Ted

Our best hope for learning where the iron is located is still to get someone's map in one of the three pre-war trading sessions which remain to us. This is why Map Making should be our next tech choice, I think.

One interesting thing about maps though is that a suicide galley could hurt more than help. If we are the first to find the new civ, then when we trade they won't have maps of our land and we will know the far continent, but not our own that we need. If we do find them first, then I think we want to trade communications to them, but not to get new ones from them That way when the new ones meet us they have improved chance of having our continental map.

Given the amount of trouble I have gone through to hoard communications [Edit: in other games,] it seems an ironic twist of this varient.


Good catch, Northern Pike. Point 1 is something I need to keep my eyes open for. As for Point 2, I think it started a spear when we needed them badly, but then I never adjusted it when we got some. Would a catapult make sense? We can always use another, it doesn't require barracks, and it would use all the shields.

Got it. Will play & post tonight after attending a soccer (okay okay I know it's called football everywhere else) match.

Pre turn still 350 BC
Move spear from Neapolis towards Hispalis. Nice catch NPike.
Switch Pisae to cat instead of worker. We need more of both.
Set slider to 80/10 for Poly in 3 turns, we are losing 1 GPT.
Antium warrior will move to Veii for police duty.
Archer in Veii moves to Rome, and archer in Rome moves toward Neapolis.
Make a not about NPike & Greebley comments about researching Map making next and strategy if we happen to meet a new civ.
Switch Pompeii to Library. I agree with Ted we need one city building improvements at all times. Flo & Hilda will soon have Pompeii’s lands irrigated. Flo is going to have to move after irrigating as the Ai swords keep staring at her. Must be lonely so far from home.
Switch Rome to settler since it will grow to 7 in 2 turns. May as well build a settler, we need more towns.
No towns will revolt next turn.
Diplo
Spain up Phi & Maps, down Lit
Iroquois up Phil, Map, Poly, Construction
Vikes up Phil, Maps, Poly
Babs up Phil, Map, Poly, Construction
Military – Spain / Average; Vikes / Average; Babs / Strong; Iroquois / Strong
There are barbs near Ravenna. Hope they get lucky & kill AI unit for us.
Hit enter

Turn 1 330 BC
Spear beats warrior at Ravenna
AI sword & archer head to Hispalis as predicted by NPike. The citizens of Hispalis send their personal thanks to thanks NPike! ;)
Neapolis cat shot takes 1 hp from sword. Roman vet horse is 55/45 favorite, I attack and do no damage, but the horse retreats. Our walls will not be done in Hispalis before the AI gets there. I hope the arrival of the spear turns them away.
Bathsheba mining.
Archer arrives in Neapolis.
Archer arriving in Rome fortifies so people do not revolt.
Flo & Hilda will finish irrigating in 1 turn; the near Babylon spear will take 2 to get there so they can escape to safety. Alice moved to chop Pompeii forest for the Library.
Spear explores. I’ll report if he spots anything interesting. Chap building road to new city site on the river.
Pompeii attacks unfortified spear moving towards Rome & loses. :( Send Archer from Ravenna to Pompeii.
Rush barracks in Ravenna.
Spear in Ravenna wins.

Turn 2 310 BC
Cumae builds Horse, set to Horse.
Neapolis builds Spear, set to horse.
Ravenna builds Barracks, set to spear.
Sword near Hispalis turns back, archer will attack next turn versus 2 spears.
Ravenna is against 3 Iroquois archers, 1 Babylonian Bowman with another archer & spear nearby.
Workers moved to irrigate river tiles.
Ravenna elite Archer attacks & beats unfortified vet archer. Elite warrior attacks unfortified archer and wins. No more attacks can be made, as it would leave our attacker exposed to AI reprisals. Ravenna will receive a horse from Cumae next turn.
I leave the room for a Diet Coke and daughter asks when I return why Rome is burning. I race to the PC & see she is joking. I’d told her earlier Rome would burn if I forgot to hire a clown. She got me good with that one. :lol:
MM Rome (now size 7) to hire a clown so it will not revolt. The Settler from Rome is due in 2 turns. I’m sending him to a place on the river with overlap near Veii. I hope this far away from the front we can build walls before anyone shows up.
Slider 80/10 poly due in 1 losing 3GPT.

Turn 3 290 BC
Slider now 80/10 and I set research to Maps due in 6 turns losing 3 GPT.
Ai has taken all hills from Ravenna towards Hispalis.
No attacks from either side.

Turn 4 270 BC
Babylonian bow attacks & loses.
Three Viking archers retreat from Ravenna. Perhaps they are following our exploring sword as he approaches their lands.
Rome builds settler, set to spear due in 3 who will replace the spear going to the new city.
Hispalis builds walls, set to barracks due in 10.
Cat hits sword on the way to Hispalis as he passes Neapolis. 55/45 horse favorite attacks, gets 1 hp and retreats. At least he bought us some time because the sword will retreat now. The unfortified sword is down to 2 points in the forest, so our vet archer is a 70/30 favorite and he attacks and loses. The AI sword promotes to elite.
Hire clown in Neapolis as it is now size 6 shows 1 happy 3 content and 2 sad faces. It will not grow now. Veii also has 6 faces but shows 2 each happy, content & sad. Can someone explain this to me? Are the military loses related to this?
AI is moving towards Pompeii & Rome and ignoring Ravenna.

Turn 5 250 BC
Horse back to Pompeii
AI is gathering on the hill next to Ravenna now where they get a defensive bonus.
Iroquois archers are back.
Decide against attack on a spear on a hill near Ravenna as a 6 to 4 favorite. We are running out of units and will soon have cats.

Turn 6 230 BC
Spear defends Hispalis against archer.
Viroconium founded.
Spear from Neapolis head to Rome. Another spear is due in Rome in 1 turn.
Horse as 6 to 4 favorite kills regular spear on cow near Pompeii promotes to elite.
Our elite warrior & archer attack a stack of 3 archers near Ravenna. Both our units win, but no leaders created.
The Iroquois are in the jungle down south. If the AI sword moves next turn our exploring spear can hop on a mountain for a good look around.
Neapolis still needs a clown and Veii still does not. Both are size 6.
We are now weak to Spain & Vikes and average to Babylon & Iroquois. Spain must be way down south.
Babylon has swords coming our way, so both Vikes & Babylon have Iron.

Turn 7 210 BC
AI Sword attacks our exploring spear in the jungle and loses.
Rome builds spear, I set to spear & think we need to keep building settler /spear / spear /settler to take advantage of the land we have.
Antium builds cat, set to cat. There is no barracks here, so just build cats.
Pisae has a cat due in 1; let’s build workers only from there after the cat.
Elite warrior at Ravenna wins (the archer was still healing).
Diplo screen shows no Iron for Iroquois & Spain, there is Iron (0 extra) in both Babylon and Scandinavia.

IBT
Vikes request audience.

Turn 8 190 BC
Neapolis builds horse, set to cat. We need more cats to hit the swords as they pass by. If we can get enough to get them down to 1 hp our horses will have a chance to kill them in the forest.
Several new AI’s show up. There are now 3 Viking swords that appear to be going to Hispalis. I hit one with the cat, but if our horse attacks the forest & wins he will be stuck there in a weakened state to be picked off by an AI sword. Hispalis looks to be in trouble and will come under attack soon. There is no way to reinforce. If we can hit swords as they pass Neapolis perhaps we can buy enough time to finish the barracks & then rush another sword.
Pisae builds cat, set to worker.
Archer from Rome attacks & kills spear that had moved onto a flat tile not yet fortified.
Our explorer is going to be attacked each turn from now on I think. I moved him off the mountain into Jungle, may as well see how far he can go. He has attracted the attention of Spain, Scandinavia and Babylon who are tracking him.

Turn 9 170 BC
Explorer spear now named Lewis & Clark defends against 2 archers that attack him in the Jungle, and promotes to elite. I’m sending him south towards Babylon and Scandinavia.
We get maps, set to Monarchy in 15 turns. The slider is 80/10 Losing 2 GPT with 41 gold in the bank.
There are now Five Viking Swords 3 of which are veterans heading north to Hispalis along the hills. I can bombard 1 per turn we miss on this turn. The cat built in Antium a few turns ago will be in Neapolis next turn, and another will be built in 3 turns.
Elite horse from Pompeii beats an unfortified spear on the cow tile, and then retreats back into Pompeii.

IBT
The sword turned right and impaled himself on the spears of Neapolis. Perhaps they like attacking from the forest tile into Neapolis since it is larger than Hispalis and Neapolis has a bonus wheat tile. This is good news! We have a barracks and walls in Neapolis already, 2 spears, a horse & an archer along with 2 cats. I’d build nothing but cats as long as they keep coming to better the odds for the Romans.

Turn 10 150 BC
Rome builds spear, I set to Rome to build another settler since Rome is now size 6 again and will grow in 2. I’d suggest we put the city either on the river between Ravenna 7 Pompeii, or the tile where the blue Spanish warrior stands on the coast. Either location allows cats to move & fire from 1 city to the next.
Ravenna has a chance to get 2 kills. Attack bowman and archer with the elite warrior & archer. Both win. They can retreat next turn since no AI’s can counter attack them.
Archer in Pompeii kills another spear on the cow.
2 cat hits on a sword near Neapolis, so he will retreat next turn.
Alice will be done with the chop near Pompeii in 2 turns, there is a Spanish warrior nearby. I moved the only spear in Pompeii to cover Alice so she can finish the chop. I sent a replacement spear from Rome which had 3 + an archer.
AI has Lewis & Clark boxed in so I fortified him. Don’t forget to un-fortify & explore next turn.

I feel a lot better after turn 10 than earlier when I lost my second battle. The RNG finally started following the odds. Unless I missed one, we lost 2 units and killed 16. :)

For the next player
1. Un-fortify Lewis & Clark to continue exploration
2. Kill the spear next to Rome with an archer when he leaves the forest next turn.
3. Continue river tile improvements.
4. Rome will grow in 2, it will require a clown.
5. Fortify the spear over Alice near Pompeii so she can chop.
6. Move archer & warrior back into Ravenna. If you are patient you will get a chance to pick off archers and warriors here.

Please comment on any questionable plays. I want to get better, so please make me explain my actions if they look questionable. Thanks for all the pre turn tips!

Here is the save at 150 BC
Rome 150 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Caesar_of_the_Romans,_150_BC.SAV)

Rome at 150 BC. I posted the pic separate so you would not have to scroll to read the turn post.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Space01_150BC.JPG

Two comments on our search for Iron.

1) I think we should build a boat. Coastal iron has the additional advantage that we could mount an expedition. Land next to it build a city while rushing a harbor. If we survive even to the third turn and the iron is already roaded or under us (and we have money - so this is after monarchy), we get a single turn of iron which is enough to upgrade all the troops we can afford. Locating it now could be useful (if it exists). Maybe Cumae can switch briefly to a galley? Hopefully the AI does not have boats yet.

[Edit:One problem. Any enemy city that covers/blocks the coastal squares is likely to cut our supply line. Maybe this wouldn't work - we would have to send the units to the city; upgrade and return in that case].

2) Send the spearman straight west if we can. We seem to be in iroquois country, and the iroquois don't have any resources (at least none hooked up). I suspect the Vikings will be to the west.

Originally posted by Greebley
...Send the spearman straight west if we can. We seem to be in iroquois country, and the iroquois don't have any resources (at least none hooked up). I suspect the Vikings will be to the west.

I totally agree. I was just looking at the map and came to the same conclusion. I came back to post and you had seen the same thing. The vikes are likely northwest of us. That is a viking city with the purple outline on our north western border, and they seem to come from the west to attack.

If we find coastal Iron, we can then try to build a city with a harbor on or next to the iron. If we get a harbor back in our core that can "see" the other harbor across squares that can be safely traversed, we are hooked up. If there is sea between the two harbors we need astronomy to hook the iron up.

We should ASAP switch Cumae to a galley and explore W and N with it. We should also send a galley to the south if we can spare the shields and outline our continent.

Great kill ratio, handy. That's what we need. :goodjob:

When two seemingly identical cities are in different happiness states, the explanation is often that one of them is pulling in more gold, and so getting more benefit from whatever luxury rate has been set. You can see this in Neapolis in the saved position: it can't work a forest tile (no gold) with its sixth citizen without becoming unhappy, but it can work the sea tile (two gold).

Nice work Handy. :goodjob:
NP: you're UP.

edit: I looked at the save an found everything in order. But since you asked I have a small nitpick: when you have to hire an entertainer, always try if you could also use a specialist. The clown in Neapolis could be made a taxman, to reduce the deficit by half. (from -2 to -1gpt... :p )

150 (0): Our defensive position looks basically sound, but a little delicate for want of garrison units. I switch Rome and Neapolis to spearman builds.

The Egyptians complete the Pyramids. That took a long time.


130 (1): We destroy a Spanish archer outside Pompeii with an elite archer.

The Vikings shuffle their swordsmen around in an inefficient manner--but they have seven of them on the the Hispalis-Ravenna line, along with two archers and a spearman.


110 (2): We destroy a Spanish warrior outside Pompeii with an elite archer.

We get a catapult hit on the Viking spearman around Rome, then ride it down with an elite horseman.

Two Viking units, a swordsman and an archer, die attacking Hispalis. A second swordsman in the stack doesn't attack. If these three units had been veterans rather than regulars, we would probably have lost the city.


90 (3): A Viking swordsman dies attacking Hispalis.

Hispalis barracks --> spearman.


70 (4): I'm able to sneak a reinforcement of two spearmen and a catapult into Hispalis, and after this the city is never in any danger during this round.

The Iroquois, the Babylonians, and the Goths all have galleys sailing off our coasts. We may have trouble keeping our galleys afloat once we've built them.

Three Viking swordsmen die attacking Neapolis, all defeated by Dances-with-Stacks.

A Viking swordsman and a Viking archer die attacking Hispalis.

A Spanish warrior dies in a quixotic attack on Pompeii.

A Babylonian Bowman lands next to Veii from a galley.

Veii completes the Great Library, and begins walls.

Rome horseman --> spearman, Ravenna spearman --> spearman.

The Ottomans complete the Great Wall, implying we didn't get the Great Library with too much to spare.


50 (5): Lewis and Clark (who haven't been attacked this round, BTW) reach the western coast of our continent and turn north.

The Babylonian Bowman dies attacking Veii.

We get Philosophy, Code of Laws, and Construction from the Great Library.

Pompeii library --> archer, Viroconium walls --> barracks.


30 (6): Lewis and Clark discover iron, thirteen tiles from Ravenna in the Iroquois lands, and not hooked up:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-30BC.JPG

We ride down a Spanish warrior outside Pompeii with an elite horseman.

We destroy a Spanish archer outside Pompeii with an elite archer.

A Viking archer dies attacking Neapolis.

Veii walls --> library, Neapolis spearman --> spearman.


10 (7): All quiet on the eastern front.

Cumae galley --> galley, Pisae worker --> worker, Rome catapult --> spearman.


10 (8): We destroy a wandering Viking spearman around Rome with an elite horseman.

We destroy an Iroquois archer with an elite archer outside Ravenna.

We get Monarchy from the Great Library, three turns before we would have discovered it by ourselves, and switch to single-scientist research on Currency.


30 (9): Two Iroquois archers die attacking Ravenna.

One Viking archer dies attacking Neapolis.

An Iroquois galley drops off an archer next to Veii.

Rome spearman --> catapult, Pompeii archer --> archer.


50 (10): We defeat the Iroquois archer outside Veii with an elite horseman.

Twelve elite victories this round, four of them defensive, failed to produce a Great Leader.

We destroyed twenty-two enemy units this round, twelve of them Viking, and lost none.

THE FUTURE:


Of course we want to revolt to monarchy soon, but given that we're being attacked with some vigour, the timing is tricky. Perhaps we should wait four turns, which would give us time to build another five ground units (assuming two from Rome) and a galley, and then go into anarchy.

Right now Lewis and Clark are fortified on the Iroquois iron to keep it from being hooked up.

Cumae is building a galley, which would be our third. If this seems to be more of a navy than we need the build can certainly be changed.

There's shallow water three tiles from Hispalis, which our northern galley will soon be in position to investigate.

The save:

50 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-50AD.zip)

The Battle of Five Armies:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-50AD.JPG

What a great round! :goodjob:
We have the GL.. [dance] The Iron doesn't look too far away either, good job defending it.

Let's see who's UP, errr, I guess that's me. Got it. :)

Originally posted by Northern Pike
...When two seemingly identical cities are in different happiness states, the explanation is often that one of them is pulling in more gold, and so getting more benefit from whatever luxury rate has been set. You can see this in Neapolis in the saved position: it can't work a forest tile (no gold) with its sixth citizen without becoming unhappy, but it can work the sea tile (two gold).

Thanks very much Northern Pike, I've always wondered about that and could never figure it out.

Originally posted by Space
I looked at the save an found everything in order. But since you asked I have a small nitpick: when you have to hire an entertainer, always try if you could also use a specialist. The clown in Neapolis could be made a taxman, to reduce the deficit by half. (from -2 to -1gpt... )

Thanks Space, I thought I tried that (at least I meant to) but apparently did not. I want you to nitpick, I'm to the point I can beat an emporer game but not Diety, so I'm a few nitpicks away. Keep them coming.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
...We destroyed twenty-two enemy units this round, twelve of them Viking, and lost none.

That's how we can win this game! Think of all the AI shields you just flushed!
Outstanding play, N Pike, really outstanding. :)

That Iron is a long way off and would be hard to hold. The AI would pillage our long exposed road over & over I think.'

Maybe we'll get lucky and a galley will find Iron on the coast NW of us. I hope.

Adding the Handy & Pike kills together we are 2 to 38 over the last 2 turns. Let's continue to expand and improve tiles.

Space, Watch the galleys starting to arrive. They will unload a unit in our rear cities. We need to keep a couple of horses available to run them down back there. Galleys will hold 1 unit at first, then 2 later on. AI will keep trying the beach landing in our rear cities all game long.

Originally posted by handy900
AI will keep trying the beach landing in our rear cities all game long. And the annoyingly slow coastal bombardment once frigates & Privateers arrive :)


Ted
p.s. well played NP, great kill ratio :thumbsup:

Originally posted by TedJackson
And the annoyingly slow coastal bombardment once frigates & Privateers arrive :)

Yes, and there will be little we can do about it (except rebuild infrastructure) until we have rails to move cannon & artillery around and polish off wounded AI boats with our own navy. I've killed may 1 hp battleships with artillery + elite ironclades in past games. Love to sink all those shields. ;)

EDIT I turn off the "battle animation" about midway through an AW game just to speed turns up. I turn animation back on to track what the AI is doing.

Is there a mod to animate battles, but not bombardment. That would speed AW up quite a bit.

I'm halfway through my turns, but they take so long that I won't finish them tonight. Intense: that's the right word for it. :)

That seems to be the major problem with AW :)


Ted

There are just a few guests in our lands, aren't there :eek: I can see why turns might take a while.

Karasu picked a convenient day to come back on :) before my brithday, I go after Ted. After my birthday I go after Karasu. I will be 41 :eek:

I do hope there is a closer iron. That one would take a good bit of work to get to. Saltpeter in our land would be nice too. If we see any towns in that desert that look less than ideal that might be clues for salt sources.

We are going to want a lot of catapults and archers/longbow and spear for our eventual offensive, aren't we?

Originally posted by Greebley
I do hope there is a closer iron. That one would take a good bit of work to get to. Saltpeter in our land would be nice too. If we see any towns in that desert that look less than ideal that might be clues for salt sources.

We are going to want a lot of catapults and archers/longbow and spear for our eventual offensive, aren't we?

I also hope there is closer Iron. That would be hard to take and harder to keep hooked up.

I've never build a longbow. Perhaps there is a strategy with them, I've just always favored a strong defense up until cavalry + bombarding is available, so I build a lot of cats, horse, and spears. The cats & spears upgrade all game long, and the horses only become obsolete with tanks. By the time we get to tank we will have either won & be mopping up, or it will be hopeless. Rails + cav + bombardment is potent.

AW is all about odds. Early in the game the odds favor defense behind walls using cats for a good kill ratio. Taking ground slowly mostly with settlers. When you can bombard & attack with cav the odds start to become really good on offense, and you are also alot more mobile. You don't want to be stuck out in the open while you move into position & then attack a city, you lose too many units to counteroffensive that way. It also pays to have pillaged without mercy before you go on offense. Check back a few posts for the pillaging thread. I hope we get an army soon so we can start pillaging.

I like our chances in this game is we can get a couple of armies soon.

Sorry to quick with the keys.

Goals:
Revolution to Monarchy at the right time.
Beware of the galleys, send our own to the north west.
Keep up the good survival rate.
Try for a leader.

Pre-turn:
Everything looks scary but optimal.
We strong vs the Babs, average compared to the others.

IT:
The Iroqs wanna talk, you that means they'll be coming with more troops.
And sure enough, more Archers come, one dies, not a scratch on our elite spear.
Egypt completes the Great Lighthouse.
Spain moves 2 reg warriors within striking distance.

70AD - turn 1
Bad news, the land NW is Viking occupied. :(
Our 2 cats get 1 hp of the new vet Vik Sword near Neapolis.
4/4 Archer vs 3/3 Spain Warrior: wins at 2/4.
5/5 Archer vs 3/3 Iroq Archer(across river): wins but redlines.
I make no further attacks, the odds are too low IMHO.
It looks as though the Iroqs go for Ravenna, Spain for Pompeii and Vikings for Neapolis.
I switch Cumae from Galley to Cat, I feel we need some in the west more urgent than a Galley right now.

IT:
OMG Viks now have a decent stack at Neapolis' gate. :eek: 3 Swords, 1 Archer
Spain destroys a road.
Rome Spear -> Horse
Antium Galley -> Harbor We will need vet ships.
Cumae Cat -> Cat Oops, missed the chop. Sorry guys bad:smoke: :(
Bab stack-ette moves away.
Babs start Hanging Gardens.

90AD - turn 2
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Spain Warrior: wins 3/4 left.
Jeez, we really need some more attacking power, this is the only battle to be fought without exposing the troops.

IT:
The defenders of Neapolis beat 2 Vik Swords, each taking 1hp of damage.
Neapolis Horse -> Horse
Viroconium Rax -> Archer

110AD - turn 3
Ha, our cats really do damage this time!

Neapolis
4/4 Horse vs Vik 3/3 Archer: wins at 2/4
Arggh, I can't attack the 1hp Sword without leaving an attacker exposed to the healing Vik Swords.

Pompeii
4/4 Archer vs Spain 3/3 Archer: wins 3hp left and promotes!

Ravenna
5/5 Archer vs Iroq 3/3 Archer: wins 3hp left.

IT:
This is really frightning, what a lot of troops moving in. :eek:
Pompeii Archer -> Spear
Hispalis Spear -> Worker

130AD - turn 4
Pompeii
4/4 Archer vs Spain 3/3 Warrior: wins 3hp left.
4/4 Horse vs fortified Spain 3/3 Archer: redlines but wins.

We are now strong vs the Iroqs too.

IT:
Bab stack moves on the cow.
We enter a new era!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-130AD-new-era.JPG
Currency comes in through the GL, start Feudalism.
Rome Horse -> Settler
Ravenna Spear -> Spear

150AD - turn 5
Pompeii
5/5 Archer vs Bab 3/3 Sword: wins 4/5 left.
4/4 Horse vs Bab 2/3 Bowman: wins 3/4 left.
I misclick and a spear moves out of Ravenna. It's important enough to reload the autosave, time to call it a night, I'll play on tomorrow.

150AD - turn 5 redux
Pompeii
5/5 Archer vs Bab 3/3 Sword: wins 4/5 left.
4/4 Horse vs Bab 2/3 Bowman: wins 3/4 left.

Ravenna
5/5 Archer vs 3/3 Spain Spear (on floodplain): wins 4/5 left.
5/5 Archer vs 3/3 Spain Archer: wins 4/5 left.

Spear moves from Hispalis to Neapolis.
I've been thinking about the revolution and I think I should not postpone it. Things will not get better soon, so the earlier the better
Start revolution and ... we draw 2 turns. [dance]
Hire entertainers, scientists and taxman to arrive at +5gpt and Feudalism in 40 turns and we should not lose any citizens.

IT:
No AI troops attack.

170AD - turn 6
4/4 Horse vs 2/3 Iroq Archer (on plains): wins 4/5 left.

IT:
3/3 Vik Archer attacks and dies, Dances-with-Stacks 2/5.
We're a Monarchy!

190AD - turn 7
Fire all the clowns etc, but for the 1 scientist.
Pompeii
4/4 Horse vs 2/3 Archer: wins 3/4 left.

IT:
Iroq Archer pillages road.

210AD - turn 8
Pompeii
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Iroq Archer: wins 3/4 left.
4/4 Horse vs 3/3 Iroq Archer: wins 3/4 left.

Ravenna
5/5 Archer vs 3/3 Iroq Archer (on hill): wins 4/5 left.

NW Galley hides in Hispalis for Vik vet Galley.

IT:
3/3 Vik Archer attacks and dies.

230AD - turn 9
Neapolis
4/4 Archer vs 1/3 Vik Spear (on Wheat): wins unscratched
No other (safe) opportunities.

My luck with suicide galleys is appaling but in this case I guess there's so much to gain, that I'll have to try.
Try my luck in SE direction with Soutern Hope.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-SouthernHope.JPG

IT:
Phew, 2 spears are redlined in Neapolis but hold the fort.
Rome Settler -> Horse
Oops Cumae riots.
Neapolis Horse -> Spear
Pompeii Spear -> Horse
Oops Pisae riots too.
Hispalis Worker -> Spear
The Galley survives but finds no land.

250AD - turn 10
Pisae gets the scientist
Cumea a taxman, a worker will solve the problem next turn.
I'm finally able to move a Horse in Ravenna, that should take care of some of the attackers.
The Galley is in deep water still. :(

Diplo:
Well, we're behind Engineering to Babylon.
Viks lack Monarchy and Currency, but know The Republic.
The others have no extra techs, the Iroqs have no money.

F3 tells us we are strong versus Babs, Iroqs *and* Scandinavia! Average vs Spain.

The settler is in Pompeii, some troop movement could send him on his way south-east well-defended, that's for the next player to decide.

----------------> the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-250AD.zip)

Mad-bax, you're UP. :)

Superb! :goodjob: :D :thumbsup: I count that as eighteen successful attacks, seven successful defenses, and no losses. Over the last three rounds we're 63-2, although what the RNG is giving in victories it's taking away in Great Leaders.

To borrow a joke of Karasu's, it's a good thing we've got the terrible problem with iron, or mad-bax would already be complaining about this game's being too easy. ;)

Got it. I'll play tomorrow. I have some serious civvin to do tonight in other SGs.

Hi Space,

Just a reminder I'll be gone (11-18, 11-19, 11-20) Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday of this week so if I come up feel free to skip, change order, whatever suits you.

Thanks for the reminder Handy. Since there are still 3 players to go before you, I think you'll find yourself UP on Friday. :D

250AD: Pre-turn.
I decide to change the archer in Viroconium to horse.
Otherwise no changes.

IBT:
2 viking swords die Attacking Neapolis. No losses.
Spanish request audience - no.
Veii library - horse
Cumae cat - walls
Pisae worker - worker

Southern Hope Sinks.

260AD:
5 cat attacks - 2 hit
vet archer kill viking archer
Elite archer kills viking archer
vet archer kill reg babylonian sword
vet horse kills vet babylonian unit (not sure what they're called and he was already dead by the time I wanted to find out).
vet archer kills viking sword
vet horse against viking sword retreats
vet horse against viking sword retreats
I don't risk any attacks at Ravenna as winning would put troops in the open.

IBT:
Nothing happened.

270AD:
Redlined archer outside Neapolis with cats. Can't finish him off as all attack units are also red-lined.
I don't know how we are going to fight our way out of this corner. Difficult game.
No attacks made.

IBT:
Neapolis Spear - horse
Virconium horse - cat

280AD:
vet archer against reg bab archer wins and is promoted.
vet horse against reg bab archer wins.
vet horse against injured vet sword retreats
vet horse against injured vet sword wins.
I just can't find a gap to get the settler out.

IBT:
viking archer dies attacking Neapolis
We learn republic
Rome Horse - spear
Cumae walls - cat

290AD:
Horse kills el bow and is promoted to elite.
vet horse agains reg bab sword wins
elite archer against reg Bab sword dies :(
elite archer against reg Bab sword wins. This was a little foolhardy as both units were on a hill. But wee needed th hill as enemy units were using it as a highway to our core.
Elite archer against bab archer wins
Rome gets taxman for a couple of turns.

IBT:
Veii horse - horse
Antium harbour - cat
Pompeii horse - horse
Ravenna spear - library (vetoable of course)
Spanish start hanging gardens.

300AD:
Decide to try to make a break for our settler.
vet horse kills viking sword and promotes
vet horse kills spanish archer and promotes

IBT:
viking sword attacks vet spear and dies
viking sword attacks vet spear and wins
viking archer attacks elite horse - horse retreats
Rome Spear - horse

310AD:
Elite archer against reg viking archer wins
Elite archer agains reg viking archer loses
vet horse against reg viking archer wins
vet horse against reg viking archer wins
Elite horse against reg viking archer wins.
Elite horse against reg viking archer wins.

IBT:
Bab bowman (aha that's what it was!) loses against our ver spear. Spear promotes.
Viking sword agains elite spear loses

320AD:
Elite horse against reg viking sword wins.
vet horse against reg viking archer wins and promotes
Elite horse against reg viking archer wins. This is a JOKE. We are militaristic for heavens sake.
Reg horse against bowman wins.
Rome gets a clown for a turn since I used a unit from there.

Rome changed to spear.
Settler can at last venture out.

IBT:
Neapolis horse - spear (7spt so it's less waste)
Virconium cat - cat

330AD:
Elite horse against reg viking archer wins
The spot I was going to take with settler is grabbed be the Babs.
vet archer against red-lined sword loses :mad:
Elite horse against sword wins.
vet horse against reg archer wins.
I just realise that some of the battles I have been saying are against babs are in fact Iroquois :smoke: :)

IBT:
Rome spear - horse
Veii horse - horse
Antium cat - cat
Cumae cat - cat
Pisae riots gets taxman and build changed to spear.
Hispalis spear - galley.

340AD:
Elite horse against vet archer wins and generates leader.
Elite archer against vet sword wins (to protect leader)
vet horse against reg sword retreats
vet horse against reg sword wins.
Pompeii horse - horse

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sp1b.jpg

IBT:
Strangely quiet.
Hurry Hanging Gardens with leader. Hope this is OK. It means we can adjust sliders down etc. Most of you will have wanted an army I know. Five minutes later that's exactly what I wished I had done.

350AD:
Raze Babylonian Lagash.
Switch Veii to settler.
vet horse against reg archer wins.

Here is our Fledgling Maginot line, which is performing quite well actually.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sp1c.jpg

Here is the >>save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-350AD.SAV)

Nice one pushing back the front, MB. :goodjob:

And finally a leader. [dance] You know, you really should have created an army, but who knows, maybe now our luck has turned, and the game will finally remember that we are militaristic. :rolleyes:

Ted: you're UP.

Nice call on the archer, it's a waste to build any more archers. Build horses, spears, cats.

We need a city on the top of the middle hill where the spears are. Road the hills, then move & fire cats at the swords from Ravenna, Neapolis and the new city.

AI will probably ignore the spears on the hills & just walk into the forest near Neapolis. There are nice flat tiles on both the W and E of the hills the AI has to walk through before they reach the forest near Neapolis. If we road & hold the hills we can fire down at them and possibly kill some more units with horses.

This is going to be extremely difficult with no Iron. Even if we hold out to cavalry, the lack of Iron will mean no cannon. Going on offense with no bombard support will cause a kill ratio we cannot live with. I'm guessing there is no iron on the coast of viking land to our NW of Max would have mentioned it.

Our best hope in this game is to pillage the AI.
The next leader must build an ARMY of spears, and go on a pillage rampage through the AI's core. Pair 1 horse with the ARMY. The army moves, the horse pillages, then the horse moves to the ARMy's position. Eventually we will want an ARMY next to each AI capital to keep them from trading. This is the only offensive strategy available to us at the moment, and it's a good one, so we need to use it.

Got it

Well played MB :thumbsup:

This is turning out to be a harder game than we expected. We need to road those hills, chop the forest around Neapolis, get that middle hill settled & found a city on the ruins. Oh, and generate some more leaders for armies & Heroic Epic, Sun Tzu etc, pillage the AI territory and hire some alchemists to convert Gems to Iron.

OK, I think I've got all that. Just don't be surprised if I don't manage to get it all done in the next ten turns :)


Ted

You forget that we *know* you, Ted. We've come to expect all of the above and more. :D

It was a shame I had to turtle as much as I did, but I had a lot of units around Pompeii and I couldn't move the settler.

I built a lot of horses. I think we can take out cities one at a time soon and make a push for the iron.

I should have built and army I know. But I would have built an army of horses. I believe the move-pillage-retreat move is better, and you can also get to the vital tiles quicker. I'm sorry about that, I was just obsessed with trying to allow our cities past size 6 without the slider going up further.

There is a settler standing in the rubble of the Babylonian city. I would put a city there and use the horses on the same tile to take out Centralia. Every tile takes us closer to something we need.

Turtling is the key to survival. Picking a setting you can defend until you're ready to make the next strike is the only way to make progress.

It's very tempting to rush off and take two or three cities. But you then have a much wider front to defend and life can become very difficult.

Whoops! Hit the enter key before I'd finished :D

You'll have to wait for Cav to get the move-pillage-retreat option. Handy's right about an army of Spears or Pikes, possibly with a couple of Cannon & 4 Horses (1 spare).

I thought the Settler was on the ruins. It's a good spot and we should be able to connect it fairly quickly.

But what I really want is a city by the Wheat on the River and a leader to rush our FP there :D


Ted

Good work establishing the hill position, mad-bax. :goodjob:

BTW, our units on the northernmost hill aren't fortified, so the "Fortify All" command should be used on them before we press Enter.

Handy, I agree that in a normal game it would be useless to build archers at this point. But given our lack of iron, we badly need longbowmen--possibly to conduct the little-seen longbow/musket offensive, possibly just to make local counterattacks with a factor of four, since archer and horseman attacks are going to become hopeless PDQ. So we're going to want quite a few longbowmen, and building archers for upgrade is an excellent idea.

I agree we should build archers. Longbows don't come for a while yet so I thought there would be time for a few horses first.

I've done the Longbow-musket thang. It works, but it's like wading through treacle as an offensive technique, like using arty.
And errm.. we need salt. We are not guaranteed that.

I think it's great that we don't have iron. Just wait till the AI get Nationalism and steam, and we're still messing around with horses and spears. :D

Originally posted by mad-bax
It was a shame I had to turtle as much as I did, but I had a lot of units around Pompeii and I couldn't move the settler.

I built a lot of horses. I think we can take out cities one at a time soon and make a push for the iron.

I should have built and army I know. But I would have built an army of horses. I believe the move-pillage-retreat move is better, and you can also get to the vital tiles quicker. I'm sorry about that, I was just obsessed with trying to allow our cities past size 6 without the slider going up further.

[/QUOTE]

mad-bax,

I hope you did not misinterpreted my comments about the next ARMY, you played a great set of rounds. Taking the hills was most excellent play. Don't apolgoze about the turtle play, the first part of AW is always alot of turtle, even when you do have Iron. I would have built an ARMY, yes, but every play has pros & cons, and HG allows a city to grow into a powerful producer which has major benefits. Ted is dead on about slow methodical advance, and not having to take the same ground twice because you are too thin at the front. This is a very hard AW game given we have no Iron.

Ted, as usual you wit has me :lol: alchemists converting Gems to Iron :lol:

Looks like it is going well all things considered. I agree we are going to want some longbows. Their attack strength is double our next best unit until cavalry.

Centralia looks like a potential saltpeter city to me. We might want to be ready for a push into the desert when gun-powder comes around just in case. If this is the case grabbing it before muskets are built would be very useful.

Edit: Looking at Diplomacy, the vikings have 3 luxuries we do not and Iron. By far their lands have the most to offer. I realize it is a ways off, but going for their Northwest Peninsula is probably our best option when we finally do take the offensive.

For example the Iroquois have a single luxury over us.

The unfortunate side will be that they have their early strength 6 unit.

Handy: I didn't mis-interpret your comments, but I hope ?I am big enough to recognise when I make a bad call and HG was a bad call.

Originally posted by TedJackson
Handy's right about an army of Spears or Pikes, possibly with a couple of Cannon & 4 Horses (1 spare).


Unfortunately no Iron is no Pikes either. :( The only pike we can count on is Northern. :D

Originally posted by a space oddity
Unfortunately no Iron is no Pikes either. :( The only pike we can count on is Northern. :D That one will do :D

Strange how you take Iron for granted, isn't it?


Ted

Ho, ho! :rotfl: Thank you, Space and Ted. :)

Pre-flight checks... OK
Looking at our position, and noting the various proposals on the forum I've come up with the following priorities:
Research to Invention then Gunpowder as fast as possible (Longbow & Musket).
To support that research build Markets & Libraries, road as many tiles as possible.
Prepare a strike force to move against the Vikings.
Generate a Leader for an Army :)


Switch Pompeii to Market (Commercial city)
Switch Cumae to Worker (zero growth)
Switch Neapolis to Library (reasearch & extend sphere of influence)
Research is a real problem. We can't trundle along at minimum research or we'll just be left in the dust, facing Cav with Spears.
Our present options are:

Rate turns deficit cost
Lone Scientist 25 -225gp
50% 19 -27 513gp
60% 17 -31 527gp
70% 15 -39 585gp
80% 13 -45 585gp
90% 11 -53 583gp

I choose 90% (lowering it as we near the end/run out of money)

Our military support costs are 43gpt. This will improve as our cities grow and new cities are founded

Iroquois have no Horses or Iron
Spain has no Horses (I've no idea where Spain is)
Babylon has Iron but no Horses and is up Engineering (at least)
Vikings have Iron and Horses - those luxuries are very tempting
Good grief! The Ottomans are on the planet (from the F7 screen)

Press button
Vikings request audience - I ignore them, they're probably only trying to sell us something anyway
Spear (Northern Hill) dies red-lining Viking Sword
Viking Galley lands Spear on mountain (NE Cumae)
Rome Hanging Gardens - Market

1 - 360AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-360AD.jpg
Bombard 2 Iroquois Archers (NW Ravenna) for 1hp each
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Archer
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Archer
Worker (NW Neapolis) road
Alice to NW Neapolis
Lugdunum founded - Walls
Hilda joins Chap
Gertie & Flo to Rome (road to Lugdunum)
Galley continues West
Cat (Rome) to Pompeii
2 Cats (Pompeii) SW
Move the entire Garrison from Hispalis to NW Neapolis - this should ensure that the AI make Hispalis their number one target and distract them from attacking other cities
bombard vet Viking Sword for 1hp
I leave the Viking Spear alone as he can't do any damage IBT and there are a couple of Horses to deal with him once he comes down off the mountain.
I can't quite decide what to do about the lone Viking Sword (SSW Neapolis). I'm hoping that he'll move toward Hispalis now that I've emptied the garrison there. But it's possible that the other 3 Swords will join him IBT. Then we'll have a real problem.
I move the Neapolis garrison SW, leaving a lone Spear to defend the city and hire a taxman

IBT
The Viking Spear moved to SE Cumae - now in range of our elite Horse
Iroquois Spear/Archer retreat SW ??? (trouble at home maybe?)
Viking Swords split 2/2
Spanish Spear North
2 more Iroquois Archers turn up 2W & NNW Ravenna
Bab Sword/Bowman arrive WSW Ravenna :(
Iroq Archer appears SSW Ravenna
Veii Settler - Barracks
Cumae Worker - Horse

2 - 370AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-370AD.jpg
Catapults (SW Neapolis) bombard Viking Swords South for 1hp on one
Catapult (hill 2 SW Neapolis) bombards 3/4 Viking Sword (SW) but misses
Cats arrive in Ravenna
2 Cats (Ravenna) N to hill
Cat (Pompeii) SW
Vet Horse (hill 2SW Neapolis) kills 3/3 Viking Sword SE
Elite Horse (SW Neapolis) dies attacking 2/3 Viking Sword S which promotes
Elite Horse (SW Neapolis) kills 2/4 Viking Sword S
Alice road
Bathsheba mine - road
Gertie & Flo (Rome) to Pompeii (road to Lugdunum)
Settler (Veii) to Rome
Hilda road
Lil (Worker, SE Veii) to Rome
Elite Horse retreats from Viking Spear (untouched)
Vet Horse kills Viking Spear
Galley West
Move an elite & a vet Spear to SE Hispalis
Move an elite & a vet Spear to Northern hill
Bugger! I caught the spacebar while I was pondering what to do with our new Worker in Cumae. I guess I'll decide next turn
Rome fires taxman
Antium switches to Horse (better shield efficiency)
MM Pompeii for growth next turn
Pisae fires taxman

IBT
Viking Sword N
Spanish Spear joins Archer
Iroq Archer NW Ravenna
Bab Bow/Sword W Ravenna
Iroq Archer E
2 Viking Swords appear W od middle hill
Viroconium Cat - Archer

3 - 380AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-380AD.jpg
Cat (SW Pompeii) to hill SE Ravenna
Catapults (SW Neapolis) bombard Sword (W) for 1hp
Cat (N hill) bombards Viking Sword for 1hp
Vet Horse (N hill) kills 2/4 Sword but is red-lined
Cats (N Ravenna) bombard Iroq Archer SW for 1hp
Cats (Ravenna) bombard Bab Bow/Sword for 1hp each
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Bowman
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Sword
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Archer
Elite Archer (SE Ravenna) kills reg Archer
Elite Spear moves to cover elite Archer
Gertie & Flo (Pompeii) SW (road to Lugdunum)
Settler (Rome) to Pompeii
Hilda (SE Veii) to Rome
Mol (Worker, Cumae) to N Rome
Lil (Rome) to Pompeii
Galley SW
Cat (Viroconium) to SE Pompeii
Elite & vet Horse (Lugdunum) to N Centralia (forest)
MM Neapolis for Lib in 5

IBT
Veii Barracks - Market
Antium Horse - Horse (most efficient build at 6spt)

More follows...


Ted

4 - 390AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-390AD.jpg
Cats (N Ravenna) bombard Spear/Archer NW for 1hp to Spear
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Sword S red-lining him in 2 shots
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Spear/Archer W for no damage
Cat (North hill) bombards Spear/Archer NW for no damage
Elite Archer and Spear SE (join Horses N Centralia next turn)
Gertie & Flo start road to Lugdunum
Lil (Pompeii) SW
Settler (Pompeii) SW
Hilda (Rome) to NW Pompeii (road to Neapolis)
Mol (N Rome) to NE Neapolis
Horse (Antium) to Veii and fort
Nora (Worker, W Pisae) mine - road
Galley continues round the coast
Cat (E Pompeii) to 2SW Pompeii
Cat (Ravenna) N
I've only got a 3/4 Horse for the red-lined Sword so I'm going to let him retreat.
Cumae switches to Archer
MM Neapolis for Lib in 4
MM Hispalis for growth in 2

IBT
Iroq Spear/Archer retreat SW
Viking Swords N
Viking Sword fort
Iroq Archer 2SW Ravenna

5 - 400AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-400AD.jpg
Cat (North hill) bombards Viking Swords NW but misses
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Viking Swords W for 1hp damage on each
Cats (South hill) bombard Spanish Spear/Archer NW red-lining the Spear
Vet Horse (SW Neapolis) kills 1/3 Sword then SW
Vet Horse (North hill)
Mol & Bathsheba to SW Neapolis
Hilda (NW Pompeii) road to Neapolis
Cat (ENE Ravenna) to Ravenna
Lil (SW Pompeii) road to Lugdunum
Settler (SW Pompeii) to Ravenna
Alice (NW Neapolis) road - S
Polly (NW Neapolis) NW
Galley continues round the coast
Pompeii hires taxman
Lux 0%
Research 100% (5 turns @ -52gpt, 151gp in the Bank)

IBT
Elite Horse kills attacking Archer (N Centralia)
Vikings land 2 Spears on Gold Hill NE of Hispalis
Another Sword & Archer arrive West of middle hill
Lugdunum Walls - Barracks

6 - 410AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-410AD.jpg
Spears (SE Hispalis) to Hispalis and fort
Polly road
Chap mine - Rome
Elite Archer & Spear move to N Centralia
Elite Horse (N Centralia) to Lugdunum (heal)
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Swords red-lining both
Alice, Bathsheba & Mol (SW Neapolis) road
Cat (N hill) bombard Spear/Archer SW but misses
Settler (Ravenna) N
Cats (S hill) bombard Spear/Archer NW red-lining both
Space Cowboy (middle hill) kills Spear NW
Vet Horse kills Archer NW

IBT
More Viking Swords W & NW of North hill
Pisae Spear - Horse

More follows...


Ted

7 - 420AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-420AD.jpg
Settler N
Elite Archer kills Spear (Centralia)
Vet Horse dies to Spear (Centralia)
Chap (Rome) to NW Pompeii
Iris (Worker, W Pisae) to N Pisae
Spear (Pisae) to Antium
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Swords W for 2hp
Cat (N hill) bombards Sword NW but misses
Cats (S hill) bombard Spear/Archer red-lining both
Cat (S hill) N
Elite Horse kills Spear (SE Hispalis)
Vet Horse kills Spear (SE Hispalis)
Spear (Hispalis) move NE & E to prevent further landings
Research 90% (still 3 turns @ -43gpt, 47gp in the Bank)

IBT
More Viking Swords arrive WSW Neapolis
2 Iroq Archers SSE Ravenna
Cumae Archer - Archer
Neapolis Lib - Horse
Viroconium Archer - Spear

8 - 430AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-430AD.jpg
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Swords W for 3hp
Lutetia founded on middle hill - Walls
Cat (Lutetia) bombards Spear/Archer SE for 1hp
Cats (S Lutetia) bombard Spear/Archer NE but miss
Vet Horse (Lutetia) kills Spear SE & promotes
Space Cowboy (Lutetia) kills Archer SE
Elite Horse (Lutetia) N (to deal with Swords next turn)
Elite Horse kills 3/4 Sword
Vet Horse kills 2/3 Sword
Vet Horse kills 2/4 Sword
Lil & Flo road - W Pompeii
Alice, Bathsheba & Mol road - road SE
2 Vet Horses (Ravenna) N
Galley continues round the coast
Research 40% (4 turns @ -2gpt, 4gp in the Bank)

IBT
Antium Horse - Archer
Hispalis Galley - Worker

9 - 440AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-440AD.jpg
Elite Horse (Lugdunum) kills Archer but is red-lined
Cats (SW Neapolis) bombard Archer NW red-lining him in 2 shots
Cat (SW Neapolis) bombards Sword W
Cat (N Lutetia) bombards Sword NW red-lining him
Cat (Lutetia) bombards Swords W for 1hp
2 Cats move to Lutetia
Elite Horse (N Lutetia) kills 2/3 Sword and generates a leader at last (Hadrian) - I rename the Horse to "Mad's Marauder"
Hadrian to Neapolis where he creates an Army
Dances with Stacks joins Army as do 2 vet Spears
Army (Neapolis) kills 1/3 Archer - we can now build Heroic Epic
Vet Horse (N Lutetia) kills 1/3 Sword
Chap road - S
Horse (Antium) to Rome
Galley (Hispalis) W, 2S
Polly (S Hispalis) road - Gold hill (NE Hispalis)
Gertie (N Lugdunum) road - N, 2NW
Elite Archer (N Centralia) dies red-lining Spear
Cat (SE Ravenna) bombards Archer S for 1hp
Elite Archer & Vet Horse (Ravenna) SE
Research 30% (4 turns @ +4gpt, 2gp in the Bank)

IBT
Viking Sword & Archer split
Iroq Archer (NW Lugdunum) N
Iroq Archer (SSE Ravenna) S
Injured Viking Swords retreat
Get Heroic Epic message

10 - 450AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-450AD.jpg
CAt (SE Ravenna) bombards Archer E for 1hp
Elite Archer (SE Ravenna) kills 2/3 Archer
Cat (N Lutetia) bombards Sword SW but misses
Elite Sword (1/5) to Neapolis, fort (to heal)
Cats (Lutetia) bombard Sword NW red-lining him
Vet Horse (Lutetia) kills 1/3 Sword
Cats (SW Neapolis) to hill N Lutetia
Vet Horse (2/4) to Neapolis, fort (to heal)
Polly (Gold hill NE Hispalis) road
Vet Horse (SE Lutetia) kills Archer 2S & promotes
Elite Spear (N Centralia) moves to cover elite Horse
Galley avoids Spanish Galley and continues round the coast
Gertie road
Horse (Rome) to E Lutetia
Workers road between Pompeii & Lutetia
Neapolis switches to Market
MM Rome for 1 extra gp
MM Antium for growth without losing any (non-waste) shields
MM Cumae for growth
MM Pisae for growth
I leave the Galley & Army moves for the next player as I had intended to throw the Army in the Galley and land it on the hill due West. Unfortunately you can't cram an Army into a Galley :D

Notes and save follow...


Ted

Stats
Kills 30, losses 3 for a kill ratio of 10:1
1 GL :)

Notes
These turns took me a long time to play as every turn was on the knife-edge of disaster. A run of bad luck on the RNG and we'd have been set back quite badly. Having said that, it was a very enjoyable set of turns to play and I don't really want to give the game back :D

Rome, Pompeii & Veii will all finish their Markets over the next few turns which will provide a boost to our research capability. We must keep up our research as we can't trade for techs. Unless you want to be facing Cav with only Spears to fend them off :)
We should aim to be (and stay) the tech leader at all times.
If we can get to Replaceable Parts significantly earlier than the AI then we should have this game in the bag. Ignore the optional techs until we have RP.

The next candidate for a Market is Viroconium which will finish the Spear in 2 turns.

Ravenna is still struggling to build a Library but it's worth persevering for the boundary growth.

The Workers should be able to get all the hills roaded during the next players turn. This should be their priority as it will allow our units to support each other much more effectively.

Hispalis is intentionally left undefended. The AI will head for it like bees to honey. We just need to make sure that the AI can't land on the hill or forest tiles (hence the Spears). Use Hispalis for Workers and/or Archers. Alternatively it might be possible to build a Harbour and then some vet boats.

I couldn't make an impression on Centralia. Perhaps the next player will have better luck. Be aware that there at least 2 defenders forted in there.

I originally thought to sail our Army West and wreak some havoc on the Viking Capital. Sadly, you can't fit an Army into a Galley. I've left the moves on both the Army and the Galley for the next player.
I think the best use (initially) for the Army is to clear the tile East of Aarhus using Cats and Horse then station the Army there to act as a launching point for a serious assault on Aarhus.

The site I'd most like to settle is 1S of the Wheat on Floodplains 2SW, 1S from Ravenna. It's just close enough to join borders with Ravenna and could pump out Workers at a steady rate. It would also be a good site for our FP when we get a spare leader.

Rome, Neapolis & Veii are our most productive cities so one of them could start Heroic Epic after their current build. I think I favour Veii as it still has some room for growth and the Market will finish in 4 turns. Don't be tempted to switch out the Market though.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-450AD.zip)


Ted

Fine round, Ted. :goodjob: The iron issue aside, we're building our position up very well.

One cautionary note: as long as we're leaving Hispalis open to lure enemy units, we need to keep a very close eye on the Vikings' technological progress so that we're not surprised by Berserkers.

I like the idea of using our army to cover an attack on Aarhus, as long as we can afford to lose a few horsemen in the assault without disaster resulting.

Excellent work and report again, Ted. :goodjob: The game kind of grows on you, doesn't it? Like a newborn, requires a lot of attention, painstaking work but gives great rewards. :D

Greebley, you're UP.

That makes me up, so I got it. Hopefully I can play tonight.

I only got a brief read of your turn, Ted (I am at work), but it looked very good. I like the idea of pushing to invention/gunpowder & will do my best to keep it going.

Oops, we're building combat units without barracks in Antium and Pisae.

If we're going to advance on Aarhus, we'll need a settler so that we can raze and replace. We might want to found the new city directly on the beaver, which would leave us with a slightly less compact position overall but would give us much safer access to the furs.

Assumption - the mother of all @#$% ups :)


Ted

Preturn: Some minor MM. I investigate the getting rid of the two taxmen, but ot really can't be done and keep our research up. In the end we are making +4 gold rather than +0. I think it was the general suffling around of citizens to maximize gold. I don't think I slowed down anything important.

NP's sharp eye saw the lack of barracks. I switch Pisae to a worker we really need another one in our hinterlands. I switch Antium to aquaduct. It will need one to grow and is size 6 already and has a harbor, so it can use the extra size to grab more high profit coastal squares. In this way it is better than a market or libary.

I also consider sending out a spearman to see if we can find the iron. Is there a reason for the fortified spear on the hill way inside our territory? I wake it up to replace the one I am sending out. I may not make it if units threaten it (it will retreat). I also move the galley to explore a bit. Army moves onto the hill

My son has gone to sleep - I can now actually play. Also civ is just plain weird with Freddi the Fish music instead of the normal affair. Hit enter...

IBT: More viking swords and some Babylonian bowmen show up.
Rome: Market->Worker (we are using unworked squares and rome is near its max size without disorder).

460 AD: Bombard archer to 1 hp which is killed by space cowboy. Injure a sword to 1 hp but do not attack due to it being in forest.

Galley moves and spots a mounted warrior. Have we seen them before now? I don't remember.

The spearman steps back due to the incoming archers. Lewis and Clarke has an opening to investigate so it enters the desert in an attempt to make it to the far hills.

The hills look like a higher priority than the flat, so I move some workers on them to start some roads. Army moves to next hill.

Lux to 10% to get rid of taxmen. We have 10 gold and that puts us at -4 gpt.

IBT: A spearman is landed near hispalis. Injured sword retreats. Two viking swords advance into forest.
Rome: Worker->Heroic Epic
Pompeii: Market->Catapult
Pisae: Worker->Worker
Virconium: Spearman->Harbor (so it can grow better).

470 AD: Hmmm... The spear will plunder if I don't deal with it. There are not catapults that can get to it since we don't have a road on the hills yet. It is only regular, so I will use an Elite* unit which should have good odds. Mad Maurader wins and retreats to Hispalis to heal (will they head elsewhere with a single unit in town?

Another attempt to send out some explorers is made.

IBT: A number of units are showing up at our door.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-AD480.JPG

Cumae: Archer->Spear.
Hispalis:Worker->Catapult

480 AD: Well the babylonians have both engineering and monotheism - the only two techs we can research. Surely the GL is going to give us these before we finish research? I am going to turn science off entirely as I just don't believe the money will do us any good now. We can run at a deficit later when our resarch means something.
There are swordsmen in the forests again. BUT our army is now near and can cover. so:
Bombard first swordmen to 1 hp and the other to 2 hp (note that they are not in the same square
Elite warrior attacks 1hp sword and wins. No GL. Army covers the warrior (is E of aarhus now).
Decide not to attack other sword. It can't move anywhere I can't bombard it next turn.

IBT: The enemies advance
Veil: Market->Aquaduct

490 AD: A lot of troops are at our doors. Road on top of the hills is complete! this will help alot.
Iroquois: 3 archer
Babylon: 3 bowmen
Viking: 4 swords and an archer (not counting one with 2 hp from last round).
Unfortunately the bombardment is almost entirely unsuccessful with only a single hit on the 2 hp sword

Another (regular) spear was dropped near Hispalis. I attack with the Elite*, Mad Maurader and win. My explorers I mentioned earlier have arrived near Niagra. Pillager Bob pillages while Guardian Bob guards.

Two elite archers attack iroqois archers and win.
Elite horse Space Cowboy attacks 1hp sword and wins.

Lewis and Clarke spot a closer iron just past Niagra.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-AD490-Iron.JPG

Regular horse kills the last Iroquois archer taking a hit point of damage

Decide to wait on attacking the bowmen. It would be nice to do a hp of damage first.

Workers start some forts on the hills.

IBT: Units advance
Pompeii: Catapult->Archer

500 AD:
Bombard bowmen to 2 hp. Elite horse space cowboy attacks and retreats doing no damage to a bowman.
Elite Archer kills a bowman.
Elite Horse kills a bowman and and then heads back into the town.

Bombard the sword stack.

IBT: Enemy troops advance.
Lugdunum:Barracks->Spear

510 AD:
Bombard archer and swordsman to 1 hp.
Elite warrior attacks and kills the sword.
Elite horse kills the archer and retreats.
Bombard another swordsman archer pair - swordsman to 1 hp.
Attack archer with elite archer and win.
Pillager Bob pillages breaking the Iroquois road

IBT: Refuse Babylon request to talk. Enemy troops advance. A babylonian spear is dropped behind our lines.
Lutetia: Walls->Barracks

520 AD:
Bombard Babylonian spearman to 2 hp and another to 1 hp
Elite archer kills the spearman.
Veteran horseman wins vs regular archer
Veteran horsman loses vs regular archer
Elite horse finishes off injured regular archer and goes back into the town.
Regular horse kills the 1 hp spearman and goes back into town.

Pillager Bob does his stuff.

Regular horse vs regular spear in our backlands does 1 hp and retreats. Elite horse finishes it off.
Elite horseman attacks a regular archer and wins.

IBT: More troops advance. Spot a spanish SOD. The first I think I have seen.
Cumae: Spear->Market
Pompeii: Archer->Archer

530 AD:
Bombard and kill a swordsman. Fort on hill completes. Move some troops onto army.

IBT: More troops advance. Another spear lands near hispalis.
Miss the fact that Neapolis is unhappy so it riots -oops

540 AD:
Going to try the town this round. There is a small lull.
Bombard Aarhus
Veteran horse vs reg spear wins.
Veteran horse vs reg spear loses (2 hp left)
Veteran horse vs regular injured spear wins
Elite* horse vs regular injured spearman loses
Elite horse vs regular injured spearman wins
Veteran horse vs regular injured swordsman wins
Veteran horse vs 1 hp swordsman wins and razes town and retreats back to army worker is captured.
Aarhus is no more this will help in that injured swords will have to head back much further to heal.

Bombard some swords
Elite archer kills a 1 hp sword

Switch Pompeii to settler. Should have taken care of that earlier.

Near Lugdunum Elite horse vs regular spear wins.
Err... On second thought I switch Lugdunum to a worker.

IBT: Spanish just barely sink our distant boat.
Neapolis:Marketplace->Archer
Virconium: Harbor->Library
Spanish start Tsu. Note that we might be able to switch the Heroic epic to Tsu and get it as I think this is the first person to start it.

Bombard the Viking swordsmen to 1 hp. Elite warrior attacks and wins vs 1 hp sword. Elite Archer attacks 1 hp sword and FINALLY generates a leader. This is my first leader in an SG. This includes finishing an SG with 3 fairly intense combat rounds as well as another with at least 2 rounds with 10 turns of combat. I am guessing it took me 70 elite victories to get this leader. I think this is my longest leaderless string.

I rush Sun Tsu so forget what I said above.

I kill a bab sword with a veteran horse

Since only a 1hp sword is close:
I kill an 1hp viking sword with an elite horse
An elite archer loses to a 1 hp sword :(
Veteran archer kills the 1hp sword and becomes elite.

These final attacks are into forest so I move spearmen to cover. Nothing is within range to attack.

Final notes:
I tried not to leave offensive units fortified. The one unit I left with movement is the army. I couldn't decide if I wanted to advance it forward.

Lewis and Clarke, and Pillager Bob are exploring/pillaging. Generally 3 hp units won't attack them so long as Pillager Bob is Guarded by Guardian Bob.

Feel free to wake up a spear to cover the archer and horse if you so desire. I don't think they can be attacked except by the 1 hp sword. [Edit: I decided to do this myself at the last minute, so it is done in the save and picture below ]

There is a big stack of spanish archers out there that pillager Bob spotted. Should be easy pickings.

The attack on the town did cost a few units/horse that we may want to replace. The attacks are at a lull right now.

I changed the settler to build Sun Tsu instead so we are not currently building a settler. Just pick a suitable town to switch.

Also I think one town has a entertainer and I am rushed so some MM might need doing. You may want to do a quick perusal of the towns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP01-AD550.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-550AD.zip)

I think I can see a rather large carrot a couple of tiles from Tonawanda.

Nicely played Greebley.

Looking good Greebley. :)

Since you all have played so quickly Handy is UP already. He'll be away until friday though, so NP would you be so kind to take this one UP? We'll plug in a round for Handy when he's back.

any slots open?

Excellent decision to do more exploring, Greebley. :goodjob: That nearer iron source may make all the difference.

Got it.

No open slots here, sorry Teknoice. Seven is a long roster already. Handy and Karasu are only away temporarily.

@Teknoice
Have a look in the Civ3 - Succession Games forum (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=67).

There are always new games starting or if you don't see anything that grabs your fancy then start your own :)


Ted

alright np space,

@Ted:

Thx.

NP are you there? :scan:

Are you able to take the game before Handy comes back, and switch places with him for this rotation? If not, we'll wait for Handy. :)

Sure, I'm here; did you not see my "got it" above? :confused: I'll play before Handy gets back tomorrow. :)

Oops, sorry NP. Must have missed that. :o

I'll be back @ my house :) late tonight (Thursday), after I catch up here @ the office.
Good trip, John Sandford's latest novel was a good read on the plane.

Thanks for the switch with N Pike in the rotation. Looking forward to playing Friday night (after his post).

I'll read about everyone's excellent adventures before I play.

Good work Greebly :thumbsup:

I dare say NP has it all under control but we need to be careful about the next moves. We're expanding into open country now and our defense front will widen.

Tonawanda has only a limited life expectancy :)


Ted

550 (0): We're building infrastructure almost exclusively, and it's the right thing to do. But it means we won't be in a good position to replace losses this round, so I won't attempt anything too ambitious. I'll be satisfied if I can establish a city on the furs tile beyond the ruins of Aarhus, and possibly take Tonawanda.

Lugdunum switches from worker to spearman. I hate to abuse the population of a city which is only growing every twenty turns.

I change the clown in Neapolis to a scientist. It's a minor point, but I prefer to have a forty-turn tech run going at all times, just on the you-never-know principle. Mad-bax will remember OFW1, in which we began our minimum run to Republic when one other civ already had the tech, and we already had the Great Library. We got it from the forty-turn gambit, not the GL.

IT: No AI attacks!

Pompeii SUN TZU --> horseman.


560 (1): I sell off three barracks, then stop when I realize that Sun Tzu eliminates the maintenance cost for pre-existing barracks. I hadn't known that.

We redline a Viking swordsman outside Lutetia with catapults, then destroy it with an elite horseman.

IT: No AI attacks.

A Viking settler/spear pair approaches the ruins of Aarhus.

An Iroquois settler/spear team, which I'd assumed was going to found a city between Centralia and Tonawanda, instead takes a suicidal right turn into our territory.

Neapolis settler (rushed) --> spearman.

Pisae worker --> worker.


570 (2): One of our veteran horsemen destroys the Viking settler/spear pair.

We deal with the Iroquois settler/spear team more safely, with catapult fire and the attack of an elite horseman.

Bob & Bob unite with Lewis & Clark to form a less attackable pillaging force (but see below).

IT: The AI civs make only one attack, and it's rather sensible (Iroquois archer versus spearman covering horseman in the open), though we win. Could they be learning?

Hispalis archer --> archer.


580 (3): Twelve regular Spanish archers are now in sight. Have they been tramping towards us from wherever the ____ their homeland is since they were state-of-the-art units?

We cut down three Spanish archers and an Iroquois archer outside Ravenna for no loss, with a lot of help from catapults.

IT: No AI attacks, although the Spanish were in fine position to lose a generation of their youth at the walls of Ravenna and Lugdunum. Is this because Hispalis is ungarrisoned farther behind our lines?

Veii aqueduct --> horseman.

Pompeii horseman --> horseman.

Lugdunum spearman --> archer.

Our galley sinks in deep water. For the reason why, see the screenshot.

No soft options:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-580AD.JPG

590 (4): We found Byzantium on the furs tile by the ruins of Aarhus. The furs come online immediately, and I'm able to cut the luxury rate to nothing, for a savings of 14 gpt.

With catapults playing a large role, we cut down three Babylonian Bowmen between Byzantium and Ravenna and four Spanish archers outside Ravenna, all without loss.

IT: Two Viking swordsmen attack our three-unit pillaging force outside Allegheny. We defeat the first, but the second kills Guardian Bob.

Neapolis spearman --> catapult.

Viroconium settler --> spearman.


600 (5): Our remaining pillagers disconnect the Iroquois horses outside Allegheny, but this may be their last hurrah.

We destroy an Iroquois archer outside Lutetia for our tenth elite victory of the round--still no GL.

IT: Oh-oh, the first Viking MDI appears. It kills Lewis & Clark, and when a Viking horseman slays Pillager Bob (though he takes the first horseman to attack with him) our pillaging stack is no more.

Veii warrior --> warrior, since we'll want a few veteran warriors to upgrade to legionaries when we fight our way through to the iron.

Antium aqueduct --> marketplace.


610 (6): We destroy a Babylonian Bowman and a Babylonian swordsman outside Byzantium, and three Spanish archers outside Ravenna--all for no loss, all with catapults contributing vitally.

IT: No AI attacks.

Neapolis catapult --> horseman, Pompeii horseman --> horseman.


620 (7): We bombard and destroy a stack of five Iroquois archers on a hill outside Tonawanda, losing one elite horseman in the process, and then move a strong stack including our army onto the hill.

We destroy a Spanish archer outside Ravenna for no loss.

IT: No AI attacks.

We get Engineering from the Great Library.

The Greeks complete Leonardo. Well, if the peaceful continent is only this far ahead technologically, we stand fairly well.


630 (8): Tonawanda is held only by two spearmen. We destroy both without loss and raze the town.

In complicated fighting in the Byzantium-Tonawanda area we destroy a Viking horseman and two Spanish archers, for no loss.

IT: No AI attacks.

The Vikings land an MDI and a spearman next to Hispalis.

Rome HEROIC EPIC --> horseman.

Byzantium walls --> catapult.


640 (9): We're able to destroy the Viking MDI and spearman near Hispalis without loss, though the attacks are riskier than we've been making.

After the usual invaluable catapult bombardment, we destroy two Viking MDI and one Viking archer next to Byzantium for no loss.

An elite archer in the ruins of Tonawanda destroys an Iroquois archer, and we get the Great Leader Germanicus, on our twenty-first elite victory of the round.

We pick off a Spanish archer outside Ravenna for no loss.

We destroy four Spanish archers and a Spanish spearman between Ravenna and Byzantium, losing one horseman in the process.

That's only nine turns, but I'll stop here, since we face a crucial set of decisions regarding Germanicus, the FP, and our route to the iron, and everyone should have the chance to offer input.

One the main front this round we destroyed 46 enemy units and lost two. Elsewhere we lost our three-unit pillaging force (which accounted for two attackers) and a galley.

Twenty-one elite victories this round, three of them after we built Heroic Epic, yielded one Great Leader.

THE FUTURE:


Well, the central question is how we're going to claim the iron between Niagara Falls and Allegheny, and whether we're going to build the Forbidden Palace as part of the process. We could (A) try to do it with just roads and a colony, (B) found a city on or near the site of Tonawanda, or (C) found a city and also use Germanicus to rush the Forbidden Palace there. I favour (C), with the city founded exactly on the site of Tonawanda; but this would definitely involve some risk, and I can see that a more prudent course might be generally preferred.

It's worth pointing out that while we'd like to take permanent control of the iron, holding it even for one turn would allow us to do some vital upgrading, including upgrades to legionary so that we could trigger our GA.

In the saved position, Germanicus (in the ruins of Tonawanda) and the settler directly to his north HAVE NOT MOVED, so that whatever decision we reach can be implemented immediately.

However we choose to claim the iron, the process will require a lot of workers. There are three native workers just north of the ruins of Tonawanda, and the four in Lutetia are also intended for the front. That should give us six native workers to build roads and one for the eventual colony, which seems about right.

As soon as the garrison of Neapolis is restored to two, the taxman there can go back to real work, and the city should reach 10 spt.

The scientist who's keeping our minimum tech run going is currently in Pisae.

The save:

640 AD, late in turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-640AD.zip)

See, I told you NP had it all under control :)

Well played NP :goodjob:

We don't appear to have a suitable site for the FP yet. Perhaps Tonawanda? But we would have to forego any more leaders until it falls. How about another Army?

Just my usual (random) thoughts :)


Ted

The moment of decision:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-640AD.JPG

Ignore my previous suggestions. NP hadn't finished posting and I missed that Tonawanda was no more :)

The ideal settling spot, IMHO, is 1S of the ruins of Tonawanda but we'd have to take (or preferably raze) Niagara Falls before rushing the FP there for it to be safe.

Alternatively we could rush or build the FP in Pompeii and jump the Palace with our next leader.


Ted

We are really coming out of our shell now, well done NP! :)

I too prefer a city to a colony, the colony itself could easily be defended but the road connecting it will be very hard to defend.

But since we are starting to edge into the 'open' land I'd really want to stick to the 2-tiles-between-each-city grid.

Welcome back Handy, you're UP. :)

I don't think we would lose a city now. I vote C also.

I would be tempted to build a knight army with the leader, but a forbidden palace right now a few turns before the GA is obviously the way to go. Within a few turns we should be able to push back our borders sufficiently to secure the iron site. I'm more worried now about the source of iron being depleted. It's only a 1% chance every turn it's connected I know. But then I am a worrier.

The only slightly annoying thing about founding on top of Tonawanda is that the iron isn't naturally within the radius of the town. Another option would be to found the new town SW of the old tonawanda and then make a further town in the area between Ravenna, byzantium, and the new town (3 squares at most away from the 3 towns for troop movment). This central town could then allocate troops as needed and it solves the problem that Ravenna and Byzantium aren't within 3 of each other.

I am not sure if this is really important to have our iron within the town radius, but it does mean we don't have to worry about a new town forming and eating our colony.

In any case I am in favor of the FP. If we go with the idea above, we could make that new central town the FP rather than the iron town. For that place we could build the town where the Iroquois archer is standing in the floodplains in NP's picture above. It would have flood plains and hills which can be a strong combination.

Got it.
Off to see Master and Commander with my son, then back home for some PTW AW. I’ll post in the wee hours today or Saturday morning.

I want to read all the posts before I make any plays.

If anyone reads this while at the movies, please give some feedback.

It appears most of the team prefers to build a town and simultaneously rush the FP on the hill (red dot) 1 tile S of the ruins. Correct?

This is a good plan, but the drawback is we have (short term) a city well beyond 2 tiles from the nearest city. The solution is of course to build an intervening city. But we also need an iron colony. That’s 2 new cities + a colony to defend. Like I said, this is a good plan, and I’m happy to comply, but there is an alternative which we may wish to consider. I’m not sure it is a better alternative, but here it is…

If we build on the green & blue dot tiles we would have 2 new cities, 2 tiles apart & the Iron in a city borders. Major downside #1 is that our green & blue cities would be on flat land and get no defensive bonus (except walls). OTOH, you can road those tiles more quickly. Also, eventually we will probably want a city on the blue dot because it is a river tile next to an Iron tile, so it’s a good location on it’s own. Blue / Green also presents a more compact front to defend. Downside #2, if the blue / green is a plan the team likes, where do we build the FP? If not in the blue dot city, then I guess we build an ARMY right now, and the FP later on the hill S of the ruins? But, I think we need the FP right now, so where does that leave us, back to 1 tile S of the ruins and an extended front to defend I guess.

If no one responds before I get back from the movie I guess I’ll go 1 tile S of the ruins, found & rush the FP. But as I ponder this, I really like the blue & green dot combo except for the FP problem it creates. Am I not seeing something about the blue & green dots that make them a poor choice?

As a last note, we only have 1 settler, so town #2, wherever it is, won’t come on line for a while.

P.S. A good future city site is the black dot on the hill where an AI archer stands. This tile solves the Ravenna / Byzantium distance problem, and is not far from the red dot.




http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Iron.JPG

Here is the alternative I was thinking might be good. Hope you don't mind my borrowing your picture :D

Yours will work too though, so go with what you like best.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Iron-ALT.jpg

I feel one advantage of this one is that there are several towns benefiting from the FP

Excellent discussion of our options, all. :goodjob:

I suggested the ruins of Tonawanda rather than any of the more aggressive foundation sites, which are clearly better in some ways, simply because of cultural overlap and flip risk. If we settle the ruins, we can concentrate on getting the iron hooked up without having to attack any more Iroquois cities, and then do our attacking with much stronger units. If we settle red dot, blue dot, or green dot, we'll be committing ourselves to attacking the nearby Iroquois city almost at once.

If we do attack Niagara Falls or Allegheny in the immediate future, we should bear in mind that our catapults, while unlikely to do much damage to enemy units in cites, have a fair chance of knocking one or two population points off a town's size and (in the cases at hand) getting it down to size six.

Handy, there's a good deal I like about the blue dot/green dot suggestion, but comparing it to the red-dot approach, it would be harder to defend two cities on flatland than one on a hill.

We seem to be in agreement that the FP should be rushed in whatever city we found next.

Slightly later: I like Greebley's suggestion a lot, provided that you (handy) feel that you can continue making progress towards the iron even though this foundation won't extend our borders much in that direction.

Once we build the Iron city and get in some culture, the border will expand to include the iron.

[Edit it is also distance 2 for us and 3 for them so it will remain in our territory even if they get more culuture than us]

Pre Turn End of 640AD
My Main goals are to kill AI, and get the Iron hooked up (or close to it)
Nice job on the warrior build up BTW.
Check to see which cities have barracks, and then see we have Sun Tzu :)
Switch Rome to settler, 2 turns. We need at least 1 more settler no matter where I decide to put the next city.
Viroconium – switch from settler to Marketplace
F1 – Good call on the 39-turn research) build the pile of gold for upgrades)
F2 – Two Luxuries, very well done.
F3 – Average to Spain; Strong to all others
F4 – well…
I’m not the best at micro managing, but I checked & did not see anything screaming to be changed.

Hit Enter
IBT
Scandinavian Medieval Infantry walk up to Byzantium.
Veii – warrior – warrior
Pompeii – horse – horse
Ravenna – spear – spear
Hispalis – spear - spear

Turn 1 650AD
Found Brundisium on the ruins & hurry the FP.
After much thought, I'm going to found on the ruins.
1. It's two tiles from Byzantium so we can shuffle cats back & forth.
2. We can control the adjacent hill to force AI to attack on the flats.
3. The next city can be located 3 tiles due East & have the Iron in its borders.
4. There were lots of pretty good choices. I went with a location I was pretty sure we could defend & safely & quickly go for the Iron from.

Cats redline the MI near Byzantium, and then elite horse kills him
Horse kills archer
Send two cats to Brundisium
Put spear on the hills by Ravenna
Send workers towards the Iron
Start a fortress on hill near Brundisium
Pompeii will riot, so hire a taxman & switch to settler. I see a fishing village spot near Rome, and we can use the free unit support.
Rome-2 AI -0

Turn 2 660 AD
Shuffle warriors towards the FP.
Rome – settler – warrior
Veii – warrior – warrior
Neapolis – horse – horse
Brundisium – FP – Walls
Lugdunum – archer – warrior
Lutetia – archer – warrior
FYI – If you put cats on the hill N of Brundisium, they can fire or move to Byzantium. If you move them from city to city, they cannot fire. Research Bezerk, the Vikes need invention to build these, they do not have it yet.
Kill sword near Byzantium with cats & horses
Bombard & kill spear on flats near FP
Horse kills archer
Horse kills archer
Army kills archer leaves 1 exposed archer.
Road 2 mountains & we have Iron. J
Rome-7 AI-0
Nothing but archers nearby
Hire clown in Pompeii so it does not riot.

Turn 3 670AD
Veii – warrior – warrior
Pisae – worker – worker
2 swords approach Lugdunum
2 MI approaching the FP
Hurry walls in the FP city
Battles all near the FP now. 2 stacks of archers (5 total)
Archer kills bombarded archer
Archer kills archer
Elite horse attacks & retreats.
Veteran horse attacks, wins, promotes
Elite horse wins
Scientist is now in Pisae
Rome-12 Ai-0

Turn 4 680AD
Veii warrior – warrior
FP – walls – spear
Spain lands 2 archers near Hispalis (bait city)
Hispalis is also attracting the attention of newly arrive Babylonia swords & Viking MI
Cats on the hill between Byzantium & the FP bombard 1 MI, elite horse kills him
Switch Lutetia to cat
Warriors begin to arrive in the FP
Archer kills archer near Lutetia
Elite horse kills archer near Lutetia
There are now 3 swords next to the 3 spears guarding the workers roading the mountains. I’m shuffling the spear guarding the gems to the front. I’ll road gems in safe territory just in case.
Change Ravenna to cat
Hire scientist so Pompeii does not riot. Fire Pisae scientist.
I’ll set Pompeii to temple after the settler pops.
Rome-14 AI-0

Turn 5 690AD
Dumb AI ignores our roading chain gang and also does not occupy & camp on the iron.
Rome horse – spear
Veii – warrior –warrior
Pompeii – settler – temple (reset scientist – will riot otherwise)
Ravenna cat – cat
Bombard sword near Ravenna, the redlined sword kills our horse :mad:
Horse kills sword
Bombard & kill MI with elite horse near Byzantium
Move police from Rome to Pompeii (Pompeii happy now scientist moves to Pisae)
Lots of warriors in FP city now
Bomb sword near Lugdunum (there are 2 of them. Hope he turns back.. Won’t attack his friend & he are in a forest.
Rome-17 AI-1
Iron in 3 turns.

Turn 6 700AD
AI horse attacks a fortified spear behind walls in Byzantium 7 wins :mad:
Veii – warrior – temple
Cumae – Aqueduct – Market
Neapolis – spear – temple
Hispalis – spear – spear
Lugdunum – warrior – warrior
Bomb archers near Ravenna & kill with elite warrior
Archer loses to redlined Babylonian bowman
Bomb MI near Byzantium & kill with elite horse. Hey RNG, how about a leader!
Move cats off hill near Byzantium, bomb & kill horse with yes, an elite Roman horse
Horse kills archer near FP
There is a Settler now in the FP city. After the legionary upgrade he can build a city NE of Iron on the river.
Soon all of the forest will be gone near Neapolis. The chop is building a temple.
Spain & Babylon now have Chivalry.
Rome-21 AI-3

Turn 7 710AD
We get Theology
We get Chivalry
Rome – spear – Spear
Ravenna – cat – market
Bomb & kill spear with Elite horse near Byzantium
Bomb & kill archer with elite horse. Get leader. I’m tempted to rush Sistine to keep it from the AI, but I’m building an ARMY & populating with swords to be sent along with 1 horse on a pillage campaign into Scandinavia.
Rome-23 AI-3

Turn 8 720AD
Pisae – worker – worker
Byzantium – cat – spears
Babylon building Sistine
Rome builds an Iron Colony.
The new ARMY is temporarily fortified on this position until we can get some over there. Our Iron looks very safe. I’m building fortresses on the mountain road to the Iron, and then will build one on the colony.
Bomb & kill archer near Ravenna
FP – Horse kills archer
Archer kills archer
Horse kills archer
Upgraded a bunch of Hoses, Spears & warriors.
Still no invention for Scandinavia
Vikes are down Theology & Chivalry to us. I say we take them out first as they are somewhat isolated up north, and have wines & silks. A pillaging army can soften them up a bit.
[b]When a colony comes under a city’s influence footprint, do you automatically get roads?
Rome – 27 AI-3

Turn 9 730 AD
Man, these turns take a long time.
Rome – spear – legionary J
AI boats are heading towards Syracuse (S of Rome on the coast), It only has an archer + spear. We need to send more units.
Bomb & kill spear near FP.
Legionary kills sword near Byzantium. Rome enters Golden Age 730 AD
Knight kills sword
Knight kills sword
Forest cleared around Neapolis
Rome-31 AI-3

Turn 10 740AD
Spears land on hill near Hispalis (The spears were off the hill getting upgraded – they are in Hispalis so it is safe. I’m sending cats to bomb the spears on the hill.
:mad: – sword kills 1 of three legionaries escorting settler to spot near Iron.
Hispalis – spear – library (taking advantage of GA to build infrastructure)
Lugdunum – warrior – Library
Lutetia – cat – Knight
Knight kills archer near Lugdunum
Rome-32 AI-3
Comments – we need a Knight back near Cumae to protect against Ai beach landings.
There is a settler & 2 legionary escorts moving near the Iron.
There is good land to be settled east of Lugdunum near the FP
Vikes are ripe for the taking with Knights, but we must not expose the southern front too much.
Balance building infrastructure with pumping Knights out for a Viking war.
I think we are in very good shape in this game. You all did a great job setting me up to get the Iron, all the hard work was already done, my part was easy! :goodjob:

>> save Rome 740 AD << (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Caesar_of_the_Romans,_740_AD.SAV)

Here is a pic of Rome at 740 AD. Looking at the Pic, I'm probably too heavy on the infrastructure. The next player may need to adjust a few builds...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Space01_740AD.JPG

Deleted - Handy had already played :)

Nice progress Handy :thumbsup:


Ted

A golden age for Rome. [dance]
It truely feels like that, finally being able to upgrade! Well done Handy. :)

I'm UP, I will try to play my 10 turns tonight. I suggest we move to 5 turns each in the next rotation, starting with MB.

Our battle for Iron has been won! Great work everyone.

Don't berserkers require iron? I think we should go into viking territory with a knight and try to take it out. I found the AI very reluctant to attack the pillagers when I stayed in the mountains and hills. Now that we have defense 3 units, I bet we could send a knight into Viking territory to explore, find the iron and cut it. Viking territory is not that large. It seems very doable.

Alternatively we could use our first army. The AI doesn't tend to attack armies and it could probably find and camp the iron. The loss in defense from the army would be made up by the fact we don't have 6 attack units assaulting our cities from the land and sea. Actually the more I think about it the better I like this idea especially as we have another army now.

I guess the final option would be that we have sufficient force with our golden age to take out the Vikings. I think they are still first on my hit list. We got one of their luxes and I think they still have 2 more. If we take their lands we should have 4 luxes at the end if I remember correctly.

It was late when I posted my turns last night, here are some random thoughts after sleeping on it.
· I never really felt pressured by the AI, there were no large stacks to deal with, and we had all battles pretty much under control. We may be able to move a few spears & such from back cities forward, and resettle some Viking & Iroquois land.
· Hindsight is 20/20, but I should have built the FP in Greebley’s or Ted’s location. The major AI assault I feared never materialized.
· Cannot stress enough how well the team has played this game so far given lack of Iron at the start.
· I should have built the ARMY, but waited to load it until we had Pikes. This was a really really really really dumb move on my part! You were all too kind to mention it. Even better, a Knight ARMY can explore AND pillage at the same time. I was not thinking. Hope it’s the last bad play I make for a while.
· I didn’t upgrade any archers. I figured the cash was better spent on Knights. I also did not upgrade any elite units except those that had already produced leaders.
· There is a lot of good land around the FP we should settle ASAP to boost our production. A steady stream of settlers is a good idea IMHO. Razing AI cities and building new ones will build up a large slave force, which is very nice when rails come in.
· Watch for happiness problems in cities that get to size 7.
·I think the Vikings can be had. They were 2 techs behind last time I checked. They are making MI, but Knights should be able to beat them. They do not have Chivalry (yet) and are far from getting guns.
** We need to build a library in Byzantium & other front line cities so horses (soon Knights) cannot enter our territory and attack on the same turn.
· An honest assessment is requested:
· > Would you have started the GA, or waited until the FP area was more developed? I was of two minds about this, and would like to know your opinions. As always, I welcome any helpful comments and constructive criticism on my plays. I want to get better!

Originally posted by handy900
... There is a lot of good land around the FP we should settle ASAP to boost our production. A steady stream of settlers is a good idea IMHO...


This is what I thought when I saw the save this morning. I'll try to work on that in my turns.

... I think the Vikings can be had. They were 2 techs behind last time I checked. They are making MI, but Knights should be able to beat them. They do not have Chivalry (yet) and are far from getting guns...

I agree on them being a good target. We'll have a second well defendable hinterland if (*when* :) ) we achieve it.

Would you have started the GA, or waited until the FP area was more developed? I was of two minds about this, and would like to know your opinions. As always, I welcome any helpful comments and constructive criticism on my plays. I want to get better!

I'm not any kind of expert but it's hard to not use the Legionairs at this stage. So although the GA was avoidable in theory, I don't know if suspending the GA would have been worth not using the Legionairs. We can now build up all the infra we need (for most of the rest of the game) in our core and concentrate on units after that.

Fine work, handy. I have no problem with how you timed our Golden Age. A good push forward at this point, presumably into the Viking lands, will give us a position from which we can't possibly lose, and that's more than enough reason to have the GA now.

I haven't had time to study the save yet, but one general observation: we should not treat our obsolete spear army as a dispensable unit. We want to reach the point at which we have three armies in play and can build the Pentagon as quickly as possible.

Goals:
Settle the Iron city.
Build more settlers.
Pillage Vik Iron source.
Damage the Viks.

Pre-turn:
Fire 2 Taxmen and a scientist in cities that don't need them. Hir a taxman and a scientist where the are needed (Pompeii and Veii).
MM optimize for growth, production and gold.
Upgrade one more spear to pike in Ravenna.
Move an extra spear to the settler stack-ette.
Switch Cumea from Market to Knight
Switch Hispalis from Library to 'pult.
Press enter.

IT:
Hmmm, too many Spanian galleys sailing around, have to watch 'm.
The Vik Spears near Hispalis don't pillage but move on a grassland tile. :smoke:
Rome Legionary -> Knight
Veii Temple -> Settler
Pompeii Temple -> Pike
Brundisum Spear -> Knight

750AD - turn 1
Lugdunum
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 Bab Sword: wins unscratched.
Hispalis
4/4 Archer vs 3/3 Vik Spear: spear redlines, but our Archer is killed. :(
4/4 Archer vs 2/3 Vik Spear: Archer wins and promotes to 4/5.
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Vik Spear: Horse dies promoting the Spear. :(
Byzantium
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Vik Archer: our knight wins and promotes to 5/5.
4/4 Knight vs 1/4 Vik Med Inf: our knight wins unscratched.
Brundisum
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Bab Spear: Wins unscrathced.

Move Army from Brundisum to Byzamtium to start heading for Vik land.
Not one of our cities really needs an entertainer, so I hire the scientist in the least productive one:
Antium (it's temporarily on starving diet, still Market in 2)
That's Rome 5 - AI 2: not too good.

IT:
Boats sail away again.
Spain sends Horses.
Neapolis Temple -> Knight
Viroconium Market -> Pike

760AD - turn 2
Move the settler on the spot Handy indicated. Accompanied by 2 4/4 legionaries, 1 5/5 spear and 2 5/5 Horses. The Army protects the Iron.
Sending out the other Army to Vik land, it takes a Catapult, a Knight and a Horse for even more pillaging. :evil:
Lugdunum
4/4 Med Inf vs 3/3 Spanian Horse: wins and promotes to 4/5.
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 Spanian Horse: wins at 3/4.
Brundisum
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Vik Archer: wins at 2/5.
4/4 Med Inf vs 2/3 Archer on hill: wins 3/4 left.
Check diplo: now techs around that we don't know, Iroqs are the only ones who are lacking something: Engineering.

That's Rome 9 - AI 2, much better.

IT:
Bab Sword attacks Settler stack. Legionair wins unscratched. :)
Spain lands a Spear and an Archer.
Veii Settler -> Pike
Antium Market -> Pike
Cumae Knight -> 'pult
Pompeii Pike -> Knight
Pisae Worker -> Worker
Byzantium Spear -> 'pult

770AD - turn 3
Found Handyaugusta, starts walls.
Switch Hispalis from 'pult to Med Inf to prevent massive shield loss.
Lugdunum: 3/4 Knight vs 2/3 Spain Horse: wins and promotes to 4/5.
Syracuse:
4/4 legionair vs 3/3 spain spear: wins 3/4 left.
3/3 legionair vs 3/3 spain archer: wins and promotes to 4/4.
Brundisum:
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Bowman: loses :( Damn that redlined unit = attacker will not retreat rule
4/4 Med Inf vs 1/3 Bowman: wins 2/4 hp left.
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Iroq Archer: wins unscratched.
Neapolis:
5/5 Knight vs 1/4 Vik Spear: wins unscratched.

Diplo check Spain and Babs know invention, that should come in on the interturn. :)
Luckily for us, AI will research the bottom half when in war, we should be able to use the GL a bit longer. Matybe it's a blessing in disguise that we don't know the other civ's yet.

Stats: Rome 15 - AI 3.
IT:
Now it's the Babs who send in some troops.
Invention comes in, after some thought I decide to go for gunpowder anyway.

780AD - turn 4
Brundisium: 5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Bab Med inf: wins 3/5 left and... Anthony sees the light of day.
Too bad Greece already has Leo's, the timing would've been perfect. :sad: As it is I'll probably go for a Knight army.
The Army pillages the mine on a cow in Vik land.

Rome 16 - AI 3.

IT:
Rome Knight -> Knight
Veii Pike -> Knight
Pompeii riots, it gets a scientist, switch prod to Settler.
Viroconium Pike -> Lib
The people love me, we finally have a house instead of a cave.

790AD - turn 5
Brundisium:
4/4 Med Inf vs 1/3 Bowman on hill: wins unscratched.
Lugdunum:
5/5 Med Inf vs 2/3 Spanian Horse: wins unscratched.

The pillaging troops see unconnected Iron of the Vik turf, pillage another cow.
Diplo checks reveals the Hammi sold Invention to the Iroqs.

Rome 18 - AI 3.

IT:
Viks now arrive with a good number of Med Infs :eek:
Iroq 3/3 Med Inf attacks and beats our 4/4 Med Inf on a hill and upgrades to 2/4. :(
Pompeii Settler -> Knight
Byzantium 'pult -> 'pult
Ravenna Market -> Knight
Hispalis Med Inf -> Lib

800AD - turn 6
No AI troops within reach. :(
But we will be able to settle a new city in 2 turns.
Brundisium is growing like mad.

Rome 18 - AI 4.

IT:
The Viks offer peace like they do just before any decent attack...
Antium Pike -> Knight
Cumae Med Inf -> Market
Neapolis Knight -> Pike
Pisae Worker -> Worker

810AD - turn 7
Anthony creates an Knight Army.
Ravenna:
5/5 Knight vs Bab 3/3 Sword: wins 3/5 left.
One settler arrives on the spot, the other moves to Byzantium.

Rome 19 - AI 4.

IT:
Spain attacks Lugdunum, Horse retreats without doing damage.
Spain Horse captures 2 workers :smoke: sorry guys.
We get the Pentagon message.
Viks land a Pike to the Mountains near ...
Handyaugusta Walls -> 'pult
Syracuse Pike -> 'pult

820AD - turn 8
Palmyra founded on the river, starts walls.
The pillaging group reveal Trontheim with yet another unconnected Iron source.
Pomeii:
3/3 Legion vs 3/3 Spain Horse: loses upgrading the Horse to 3/4.
Palmyra:
5/5 Horse vs 3/3 Iroq Archer: wins 3/5 left.
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 Iroq Archer: wins unscratched.
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Iroq Archer: wins unscratched and promotes to Elite.
Lugdunum:
5/5 Horse vs Spain 1/3 Horse: wins unscratched.
Ravenna:
5/5 Warrior vs 3/4 Spain Horse: wins 2/5 hp left.
Byzantium:
Knight Army vs Med Inf: wins 2hp lost.
Switch Rome to the Pentagon.

Rome 25 - AI 5.

IT:
Spain repeats the moves it made last turn.
Viks replace the hurt troops.
Neapolis Pike -> Knight
Byzamtium 'pult -> Pike

830AD - turn 9
Lugdunum:
5/5 Horse vs 1/3 Spain Horse: wins 3/5 left.
Palmyra:
5/5 Knight vs 3/3 Iroq Med Inf: wins 4/5 left.
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 Irop Spear: wins 3/4 left.

Hurry walls in Palmyra for 32g.
Diplo check reveals the the Babs have education.

Rome 28 - AI 5.

IT:
A Bab Knight shows up.
Spain definitely wants Lugdunum, many more Horses come to take it.
Veii Knight -> Knight
Palmyra Walls -> 'pult

840AD - turn 10
Palmyra:
3/4 Knight vs 2/3 Iroq Archer: wins without losing more hp.
Ravenna:
4/5 Knight vs 2/3 Spain Spear: wins without losing more hp.
Pillagers disconnect 1 Wine source.
Byzantium:
4/4 Longbow vs 2/3 Vik Med Inf: wins unscratched.
4/4 Med Inf vs 3/4 Vik Med Inf: wins unscratched.
13/13 Knight Army vs Vik 2/4 Med Inf: wins losing 1hp.
Cumae:
4/4 Med Inf vs 4/4 Vik Pike: wins 3/4 left.

Rome 34 - AI 5.

I take 1 extra turn (just to even out the years, you know. ;) )

IT:
The Babs wanna talk, and promptly arrive with fresh troops.
Pompeii Knight -> Knight
Viroconium Lib -> Knight
Lutetia Knight -> 'pult

850AD - turn 11
Byzantium:
4/4 Med Inf vs 2/3 Vik Archer: wins and promotes to 5/5.
12/13 Army vs 2/3 Vik Med Inf: wins losing no further hps.
Lugdunum:
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Spanian Horse: wins unscratched but oops has no movement left. Move 3 defending units to protect him.
Brundisium:
5/5 Knight vs 3/4 Iroq Med Inf on hill: wins unscratched.

Grand total for this round: Rome 38 - AI 5.

There's a settler in Byzantium which we can use to found an advanced city from which to launch our attack. :hammer:

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-850AD.zip)

The Front:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-850AD-TheFront.JPG


The Viking lands:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SP1-850AD-VikTurf.JPG

Mad-bax, you're UP.

I'm going round the outlaws tomorrow, so I won't be able to play till Monday. Can I swap round with the next player please?

If Ted agrees that's fine, otherwise playing Monday is OK too.

One thing we might want to consider. If we go full speed on Gunpowder instead of 40 turn research we get it in 7 turns instead of 33. Do we really need the gold? What if we took the opportunity to start the push toward cavalry?

Once we upgrade the 8 spear and 5 horse, and then the pike to Musket upgrade which is a bit pricey. However, I am thinking the rest of the funds can go full bore on Military Tradition. I guess the alternative is to spend the funds on rushing troops?

What do ppl think?

One thing to remember about pillaging is you don't really know when they reconnect since the roads only display when you see them. For example that Iroqouis iron might be worth checking on. It could be already connected as we haven't seen it in a long time.

Unfortunately, I'm up in two other SGs at the moment so I can't take it before Monday either.

I haven't had time to look at the save but I like Greebley's research to Mil Trad at max in principle.

I guess it will depend on how may units we have left to upgrade.


Ted

Greebley, the info on the iron is brandnew, only exposed it in the last 7 or 8 turns.

The GL is still active, but we could go full speed, at the risk of losing all that money to something we would have gotten anyway. Most (if not all) of the units that are not upgraded yet are Elites.
As I've said Education is known by one of the AI, so we are at risk of the GL going obsolete.

If one AI has education and no AI has Gunpowder, then I am even more inclined to think full bore research is a good idea. The odds of getting Gunpowder isn't even that good.

Oh I had an idea for Always war on conquests. I am seeing if anyone has interest in trying it.

The post is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69600)

Feel free to join if interested.

Originally posted by Northern Pike
I haven't had time to study the save yet, but one general observation: we should not treat our obsolete spear army as a dispensable unit. We want to reach the point at which we have three armies in play and can build the Pentagon as quickly as possible.

Agree about the Pentagon.

The spear Army is not yet obsolete. In my experience, the AI will avoid attacking a spear ARMY with Knights. They will wait to attack with Cav. We have many turns of pillaging to milk from our spear Army, but I should have known better an waited to build a knight Army.

To maximize the pillage, pair a horse with the army. The army moves, the horse pillages, then moves to the army's position. Head north and pillage Viking lands soften them up for Rome's glorious legions as soon as you can move Pikes to guard the Iron colony.

Originally posted by handy900


Agree about the Pentagon.

The spear Army is not yet obsolete. In my experience, the AI will avoid attacking a spear ARMY with Knights. They will wait to attack with Cav. We have many turns of pillaging to milk from our spear Army, but I should have known better an waited to build a knight Army.

To maximize the pillage, pair a horse with the army. The army moves, the horse pillages, then moves to the army's position. Head north and pillage Viking lands soften them up for Rome's glorious legions as soon as you can move Pikes to guard the Iron colony.

If one AI has education and no AI has Gunpowder, then I am even more inclined to think full bore research is a good idea. The odds of getting Gunpowder isn't even that good.

I think turning up reasearch is a good idea since we have completed our upgrades. We can slow it down a little when we get guns to upgrade Pikes near the front, then go full bore for cavalry. Getting guns early will allow us to see where the saltpeter is located. Could we be so unlucky as to have no saltpeter in our lands given what happened with the Iron?

Found Handyaugusta, starts walls.

I'm speechless :love: . What an honor. All I did was hook the iron up, the team did the hard part.

Originally posted by handy900

To maximize the pillage, pair a horse with the army. The army moves, the horse pillages, then moves to the army's position. Head north and pillage Viking lands soften them up for Rome's glorious legions as soon as you can move Pikes to guard the Iron colony.

Did that. There's also a catapult and a knight who joined.
The catapult is not that useful yet but may become so when the Iron spot is found.

Strangely enough all the Iron sources I found so far are not hooked up, so there must be another one somewhere.

Odds are there's saltpeter near Centralia, but let's wait to be sure. Not too hard a target if this is indeed the case.

Originally posted by a space oddity

Strangely enough all the Iron sources I found so far are not hooked up, so there must be another one somewhere.



Did you check crtl + shift + M the clear the map to see if a city sits on top of the Iron?

:goodjob: on the pillage. I doubt the AI will attack your stack ;). I look forward to using the cat, never taken one on a pillage tour before.

The one "non essential" tech that is a must have for us is navigation so we can build explorers; our demolition special forces pillaging unit. We can research it after a couple AI's have it, so it's cheaper, but we gotta have it.

I'm still kicking myself over not making a knight army. :wallbash: