MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw] [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

denyd

Nov 09, 2003, 11:25 PM

First of all the SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW2110BC.zip)

GOTM 24 SG – Turn 1 Recap

Turn 0 – 2550 BC – Reset to personal preferences – Pre-flight check all is good – 120g +5gpt

IBT: Tokugawa warrior moves east past our warrior – Azuchi completes David (Warrior) – starts settler

Turn 1 – 2510 BC – Claus moves to kill barb village – Bert NE – Alan N shows a second cow – David SW – Leave slider to 8-1-1 – will need to change after Azuchi grows – bank at 125g + 5gpt
Trade Check: Tokugawa still wants 125g + 5gpt for Bronze Culture

IBT: Nagoya completes Bonnie (worker) starts temple (15 turns)

Turn 2 – 2470 BC – Bonnie moves to help Alice – David SE – Claus moves to attack barb village – Bert NE spots move BG – Alan N
Trade Check: Tokugawa now wants 130g + 4gpt for Bronze Culture

IBT: Nothing happens

Turn 3 – 2430 BC - Alan NE spots a cow – Claus moves to attack Barb Village – Alice completes mine – Alice & Bonnie start road – David SW spots more mountains – Alan N reaches end of peninsula
Trade Check: Deal for Bronze Culture now down to 135g + 4gpt

IBT: A barb warrior moves off – Azuchi grows to 3 (need to check slider)

Turn 4 – 2390 BC – Alan SW – David SW in the mountains – Bert NE – Claus kills Barb Warrior (3/3) and disperses Barb Village +25g
Trade Check: Bronze Culture for 165g + 2gpt – Slider to 6-1-3

IBT: Tokugawa warrior moving nearby – might have to build archer – Palace Expansion # 1, I grow a lawn in front of our rock pile

Turn 5 – 2350 BC – Switch Nagoya from Temple to Warrior – Claus S – Alan SW – Bert NE – David sent back to Azuchi – Alice & Bonnie finish road and move to BG
Trade Check: Still 168g + 2gpt for Bronze Culture

IBT: Tokugawa warrior moves off

Turn 6 – 2310 BC – Bert NE spots green border – Claus S – David changes course and heads W – Alan S - Alice & Bonnie start road on BG
Trade Check: Still 171g + 2gpt for Bronze & not ready to sell Wheel

IBT: A red warrior (Takeda) appears in the west – Azuchi completes settler starts warrior – Nagoya completes Edgar (Warrior) starts Settler

Turn 7 – 2270 BC - Slider back to 9-1-0 – bank at 174g + 6gpt – Edgar moves to cover workers – Settler sent to space next to SE cow – David W – Alan S – Claus S – Bert W to Kuroda (Green) border
Kuroda info: Polite – 3 cities – tech: up Bronze Culture + Taoist Mysticism + The Wheel
Takeda info: Annoyed – 4 cities - tech: up Bronze Culture + The Wheel
Trade Check: possible trades for all 3 techs – but I don’t think I can get all three for what I’ve got to offer

IBT: Takeda & Tokugawa warriors move next to each other

Turn 8 – 2230 BC – David SW – Alan S – Bonnie & Alice complete road start mine – Edgar rests on Bonnie & Alice – Claus S moving to city3 site – Bert N into Takeda territory (a shortcut) – Settler moving as planned
Trade Check: Still very expensive for techs

IBT: Takeda Warrior moving east

Turn 9 2190 BC – Edgar moves to be near Takeda warrior – Bert N – Claus moves to City 3 site – David SW in very mountainous terrain – Alan S – Settler moving to spot
Trade Check – Kuroda have Terra Cotta available
Trade 100g to Kuroda for Terra Cotta – Trade Terra Cotta to Takeda for Bronze Culture + 3g – Trade Terra Cotta + 65g to Tokugawa for The Wheel – Bad news, no horses nearby – Tech update Takeda & Tokugawa up Iron Culture – Kuroda up Taoist Mysticism – Bank at 24g + 6gpt – Alphabet due in 11 turns

IBT: Takeda warrior moves w – Tokugawa warrior takes his spot – Edgar rests – Settler moves 1 spot from home – Claus waits for him – Bert N spots river – Alan S spots dyes – David S
Trade Check: Nothing available

IBT: Tokugawa warrior moves away – Takeda warrior threatens Alice & Bonnie – Azuchi completes Frank (warrior) starts granary

Turn 10– Edgar moves to Nagoya and MP – Alice & Bonnie complete mine and move S to road to city3 – Settler reaches city3 site – Claus is waiting for him – David SW – Alan S – Bert N spots Wool

Trade Check: will be up to the next player

Suggest settler found city on this spot – Claus is ready for MP duty – use workers to get a road to him – Nagoya is set to grow to 3 as settler completes

A look at our little empire to follow

denyd

Nov 09, 2003, 11:29 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW2110BC.jpg

Notice the only visible horses to the NW - our settler is in a pretty good spot - we'll need to meet a couple of others to get the tech cost down

More comments tomorrow

:beer:

Shevek

Nov 10, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by denyd

Edgar rests on Bonnie & Alice
:lol: Hope he did not get too distracted from his duty.

Good turns Denyd.
It looks like we have some good land to settle. The next civ in the east is not too close and that (hopefully) gives us some time to claim a good chunk of land.

@DaveShack - how did you produce your RCP sreenshot? Did you use some tool or do it all 'by hand'?

Edit:
PS: I've played version 1.27.

DaveShack

Nov 10, 2003, 12:53 AM

The base RCP screenshot was produced using the crprings tool, which is included as part of CIVReplayViewer by Dianthus. It's a really cool tool. Here is a link to the CIVReplayViewer thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52902)

Dots were added using the built-in paint tool in Windows.

DaveShack

Nov 10, 2003, 01:02 AM

I might be unavailable for a few days sometime this month. My wife and I are trying to adopt a newborn and the birthmom who picked us is due Dec 1st. :D

Needless to say, the hours available for civ will drop significantly. :) [where's that "tired" smiley?] I hope to be able to squeeze my turns in, and will post a got it if still available and intend to post an explicit skip if needed.

mad-bax

Nov 10, 2003, 02:34 AM

Space: You are UP
Denyd: Can you post the firaxis score at the end of your turn please?

DaveShack: Good luck. Hope everything goes as well as you would want.

barbslinger

Nov 10, 2003, 04:04 AM

I know most of us played this before, but I definitly remember this area. I busted up Takeda with some MA right around here and it looks like the same place ODA started, or near. Again happy to be a part of this, my 1st SG, and look forward to thumping the CIV3 crews. As for the game, nice trading earlier to get us nearly caught up. Iron is a definite because I think all of us feel some agression a'coming. As for city placement I also love the river towns. Nothing better than stepping outside and looking across the water. I'm thinking going towards the SE to both grab cow - hills and start a block of eastern neighbor. It's only 4 tiles to secure (someday) and will give us all early game to settle W against the other rival. This is gonna be fun. Can't wait to see how Korean AI makes out. The Han will eat him for lunch I think and have a nice lead whe we meet him.

a space oddity

Nov 10, 2003, 05:53 AM

Err, 'got it', I guess. I have two other games to complete, so don't expect this before tomorrow.

Shevek

Nov 10, 2003, 06:33 AM

@DaveShack - thanks for the link. I was looking for something like it before, unsuccessful. And good luck with your baby. Enjoy fatherhood, should be even better than playing civ (what am I saying, argghh)

denyd

Nov 10, 2003, 10:33 AM

MadBax: I'll post the score when I get home tonight.

DaveShack: Congrats on the impending daddyhood (I've got an almost 2 year old). If you're lucky yours will be a early to bed type.

Like most of the rest, I like river cities (commerce & +6 growth potential). I'd like to see us claim those horses & cows to the west and the wheat & wine to the east (if possible). Hopefully, we'll be able to leverage alphabet into tech parity.

a space oddity

Nov 10, 2003, 03:09 PM

MB4 - turnlog 2110BC

Pre-turn:
All checks OK, some promising techs about.
I notice Nagoya is building a settler at size 1, but will grow next turn. I'll leave it for one turn to see how quick it can grow to size 3. If that's not quick enough I will switch to Rax instead.

IT:
The purple guy, Toku, respects our borders, good. :)

2070BC - turn 1
Claus fortifies in Nagoya. Nagoya will grow in 10 turns, so I switch to Rax to complete next turn, no shield loss.
Move Bonnie and Alice to connect our soon-to-found new city.
Found Ise on the spot, it starts a Rax to grow a bit before starting on workers.
David East, Alan SW, Bert North.

Diplo - no change.

IT:
Purple guy moves away
Nagoya Rax -> Warrior

2030BC - turn 2
Alice and Bonnie start road.
David SE, Alan South, Bert North

Diplo - no change

IT:
Zzzz

1990BC - turn 3
Alan South, finds Barb camp but the Toku is closer to it. It has two Pictish Warriors though, so we might get lucky.
David SE, Bert N

Diplo - the Kuroda now know Iron Culture too. :(

IT:
The Toku warrior defeats 1 Pict and is unharmed, too bad.

1950BC - turn 4
Alan SE, David South, Bert North at the end of the Island. I did start the GOTM but I never came further then 100BC, so the geography completely new to me.

Diplo - the Toku now know Bajutsu (HBR).

IT:
Bad news: the Toku warrior disperses the camp *and* promotes to Elite.
Nagoya Warrior -> Settler

1910BC - turn 5
Alice starts road, Bonnie moves to the next tile.
David S, Alan W, Bert W

Diplo - We can now afford Bajutsu, but Alphabet is only 4 turns away, since we are nowhere near connect

Horses, I decide to wait with that too.

IT:
The Toku have another settler pair on their way and start the Oracle.

1870BC - turn 6
Alan W, David S, Bert SW.
Bonnie starts road.
MM Azuchi to get 1 shield extra in, before growing.

Diplo - The Toku now know Bajutsu too.

IT:
The settler pair moves West

1830BC - turn 7
Alan SW, David S, Bert S
Azuchi grows and needs some lux, move slider to (8.1.1) for +5gpt and 83g in the bank.

Diplo - no news

IT:
Settler pair moves south.
Kuroda reg Archer comes into view.

1790BC - turn 8
Alan W, David W, Bert SW
Alice moves.
Alphabet in 1....

Diplo - no news

IT:
Settler pair moves further south.
Alphabet is in, start Calligraphy.

1750BC - turn 9
Trading:
Kuroda: Compare IW for 6gpt+42g to IW+Myst for Alphabet+5gpt+49g. So Myst+6 for Alphabet isn't too much of a rip-off, I make the deal.
Takeda: Iron Culture + Bajutsu for Myst + 2gpt + 57g
Toku: 25g for Myst (also for attitude... he's now Cautious)
It worked guys, we are now at par and beyond and there's iron near Ise.
Alan W, David W, Bert W.
Alice and Bonnie move.

IT:
The toku start the Oracle.

1725BC - turn 10
The Kuroda now have Masonry and still lack Bajutsu, and they are willing to trade it straight. It is against SG etiquette to make a trade in the last turn, so it's still available.
David SW, Alan SW, Bert S, Alice and Bonnie start road.

Firaxis score: 148.

a space oddity

Nov 10, 2003, 03:12 PM

Here is the save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-1725BC.zip)

And this is where I think we should settle. Red dot has priority, we need to grow badly. (people = points!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4-PTW-1725BC.JPG

BTW Denyd's score was 127.

denyd

Nov 10, 2003, 04:21 PM

SpaceOddity: Double thanks (posting the Firaxis score and switching Nagoya to rax).

Nice trading...it's good to see that we'll have iron even if we don't get the horses.

I agree with you about the red dot city. If we can get that going, along with the capital, we should have the other cities dedicated to military. If Bert has found the NE corner of our island, then with just one AI that direction, I think our first target might be chosen. I prefer a one front war for ease of logistics. We should probably strive to expand as far east as possible to cutoff Kuroda's western growth and make him a smaller target, if he's the only one that way.

If the signs are correct, we're the Japanese (Religious & Military), that means we'll have a UU of the Samurai (4-4-2), a knight replacement that needs iron, but not horses and does not give the 2x to pikes when attacking. The best of the knight replacement units and second best UU (Siphai) in the game (IMHO).

So, who's up???

:beer: for all and :goodjob: to spaceoddity

a space oddity

Nov 10, 2003, 04:35 PM

Thanx Denyd. :) It figures if we're Japanese, because the landmass is Japan (rotated). Chances are that the others share our traits.

I think DaveShack's UP, but has he got the time? ;) BTW let me add my best wishes to you Dave, having a newly born around is a very stirring and impressive event, never a dull moment. :D

mad-bax

Nov 10, 2003, 05:51 PM

DaveShack is UP.

I will be posting a table of comparitve scores in the first post of this thread in a couple of days. Might even attempt some Karasuesque graphs. Be patient though.

Shevek

Nov 11, 2003, 07:05 AM

Can we somehow determine the traits of our foes?

When we met Tokugawa he knew Bronze culture (BC), Wheel (W), Ritual burial (RB). He must have aquired 1 tech before we met.

Kuroda appeared to know on meeting: BC, W
Takeda: BC, W
I am not 100% sure from the turn logs whether they both also knew our starting techs MA and RB but I guess yes.

I do not assume that all tribes on the Japanese island share the Japanese traits. Tokugawa does not.
I think it would be good to figure this out as it may give hints regarding the strengths of the tribes and also what UU to expect (and when to expect them).

Edit:
I agree with the red spot to be settled ASAP. That's a good location. The blue spot can be filled in later. Our next priority should be the south with the sheep on the river. We must also make sure to secure the iron and the dyes in time.

DaveShack

Nov 11, 2003, 08:46 AM

I'm going to need to be skipped, maybe twice depending on how fast I come back up in the order...

We have a son! [dance] Born 11/10, 5:22pm MST, 5lb 15oz, 17.5 inches.

It will be a few days while I reacquire the skill of holding a bottle in one hand and a mouse in the other... :D

a space oddity

Nov 11, 2003, 08:54 AM

Congrats Dave! [party]

LordKestrel

Nov 11, 2003, 09:59 AM

I'm sure you'll have lots of free time now :lol:

It looks like I'm up, so I'll play once I get home from work tonight (about 12 hours from now).

mad-bax

Nov 11, 2003, 02:22 PM

I don't think I need to post every time someone completes a turn. I'll just keep the first post in the thread updated. I'll only post if there is an obvious need to.

Daveshack: Yes you should have plenty of time for Civ now you'll only be sleeping 3 hours a day.

Congratulations. [party]

denyd

Nov 11, 2003, 02:52 PM

Congrats DaveShack [dance] [party] :band:

I guess that you'll learn the hold the baby in the left hand and play Civ with the right hand technique most of us dads use.

Hint, turn on the extra command buttons. You will be able to most of the worker commands without your hand leaving the mouse. You might also want to learn the shortcut keys!

LordKestrel

Nov 12, 2003, 05:42 AM

Ok, the 12 hour work day ended up being 18 hours, so this is a little late.

Inherited turn

Take a look around, things look fine. I notice we also have an iron under Nagoya, so no more building of warriors for us. We can now build the Kensai Oda, which is a 4/2/1 unit. According to the Civilopedia, it is a drop in replacement for the Immortal, so it's very likely that it is our UU.
We have two sources of horse nearby, one a few tiles south of Azuchi, and one several tiles west of Nagoya/Azuchi. I'll aim for the one west, as it denies access to those horses to the Tokugawa :evil:

Looking at trades, Takeda will give us 101 gold for Alphabet, and Tokugawa will give us 65, so I make the trades. They would probably trade for them soon, and 166 for a first row tech is fine by me. Kuroda wants 214 gold for Masonry, so Bajutsu is worth at least that much. I hold off on the trade for now, and hopefully they'll make some gold in the next few turns that we can get along with Masonry.

I laugh as I notice that all the warriors have male names, and all the workers female names :D

Hit Enter
IBT - Kurodan 3/3 archer comes out of the fog near Ise, hopefully he just came to say hi.
Takeda are building the Oracle.

1. 1700BC
Ise builds barracks, starts warrior.

Warriors explore, find more Tokugawa towns. I can see the borders of 6 towns, and they probably have more.

IBT -
Kurodan archer wanders off.

2. 1675BC
Azuchi builds granary, starts spearman, settler queued up.
Nagoya builds settler, starts spearman. Needs a granary, but also workers. I'll probably start a worker after this spearman.

Edgar the warrior and his trusty settler sidekick head west for the horses.
Alice and Bonnie finish building their road, and begin mining said road.

Once the road connected, the warrior in Ise changed to a Kensai Oda automatically, so I swapped it to spearman. Sadly, 20 shields is the cheapest unit we can build, and I don't want to send our settlers out without an escort.

Bert finds a horse northeast near the iron, and a Kuroda settler next to it ready to plant.

Kuroda went from 0 gold to 141, so he's obviously met someone. We can get Masonry + 8 gold for Bajutsu, so I go for it. Takeda and Tokugawa are still broke (4 and 0 gold respectively).

IBT -
Nada

3. 1650BC
Moving the settler/warrior combo.

IBT -
Tokugawa complains that Alan is trampling his crops. I guess I should move him ;)

4. 1625BC
Raise lux to 30%
Tokugawa and Takeda have learned Masonry, but both still have 0 gold. Nothing quite as fun as AI tech trading on Monarch+

IBT -
Alan is kicked out of Tokugawa's land.
Takeda are building the Pyramids.

5. 1600BC
Azuchi builds spearman, starts settler.
Drop lux to 20%

IBT -
Tokugawa demands 32 gold. I give in, as we are in no shape to fight. Attitude moves from Cautious to Polite. I think we just found our first target :D

6. 1575BC
Just warrior exploration. 2 turns from planting the horse thief town.

IBT -
Nothing

7. 1550BC
Ise builds spear, starts settler.
Lux dropped to 10%

IBT -
Kuroda complains about our warrior.

8. 1525BC
Koromo founded. Starts warrior.
Raise lux to 20%.

IBT -
Kuroda kicks us out. Doesn't he understand that we can't explore if we don't trek through his land?

9. 1500BC
Azuchi builds settler, starts spear.
Nagoya builds spear, starts worker.
Lux dropped to 10%

Move new settler plus Hans the spearman towards the river wheat.

IBT -
Nothing

10. 1475BC
Exploring and moving settler.

Kuroda has just learned Calligraphy, and has communications with the Mori. Apparently there is someone else on his end of this continent.
He doesn't know Tokugawa or Takeda yet, but it's only a matter of time. Probably less than 15 turns before his archer finds them.

We can't really make a trade for Calligraphy without giving up most of our gold or trading away contacts. I'd say that we first trade gold for contact with the Mori, and see what they have. This will also reduce tech costs as we will know more civs. If we want to stay near the front of the tech race, we could trade away contacts for Calligraphy, and then do a 70% science run for Literature or Mathematics. Lit might be good if we want to build the GL. Just sit back and rake in the cash while the AI does our research. Math can be a good tech to trade with, and catapults are always useful for an early war. I'm tempted to trade for Calligraphy to find out what contacts the Tokugwawa and Takeda have. It's possible they know some extra civs, which with any luck we could trade for contact with our entire island.

Score: 169

Here is our land (http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/mb4ptw/MB4PTW_1475BC-homeland.jpg)

Here is where I think we should put our cities. It gives more preference to freshwater and freshwater+coast sites. The red would be my first choice, and is where the current settler should go. The wines would be next, as we need that lux, and that site could become very powerful given time.

http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/civ3/mb4ptw/MB4PTW_1725BC-dotmap.jpg

And here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-1475BC.zip)

mad-bax

Nov 12, 2003, 08:58 AM

Barbslinger is UP

barbslinger

Nov 12, 2003, 07:17 PM

I'm working until 11 PST and will play it when I get home. Couple things of note. I think I'll be bringing our 2 western warrior/scouts back home for MP while checking opponents doings on the way back. Also I noticed that in Azuchi I could change 1 pop to scientist and run 0% lux and 0% science and gain 2 gpt. We get the granary 2 turns later but I think until we hook up dyes we can save some cash for tech. I'll be planting the settler on red. The 2 easternmost dots I would like to discuss bringing in closer to try and choke at the 2 tile land bridges. The green/yellow dot (I'm slightly color blind) back to 2S-1SE nestled in mountains and on lake. the purple? settled between the wines on the coast. This area will undoubtably be near our frontlines and the less distance to travel to reinforce will be appreciated later.
I would also like to get a couple/few more workers up and running and will do that after granary builds. Need tmore infrastucture to support growth in Azuchi to get a decent settler/worker town.
I like JimmyDeans tech ideas to try and get writing for contacts. Still 39 turns away from writing and may not be able to pull it off. I'll get the contacts either way. Need to see if there is any way to get Alan past Toku.
Lastly, frankly I'm nervous and don't want to disappoint anyone.

a space oddity

Nov 13, 2003, 02:11 AM

No need to be nervous Barbslinger. :) I agree with trying to choke the landbridge. I know we trying to claim as much land as possible, but for a military aimed game we are spread thin. We will have to fill up gaps soonish, otherwise warring will be soooo slooooow. Especially if our UU is a type of swordman.

Shevek

Nov 13, 2003, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by barbslinger
The 2 easternmost dots I would like to discuss bringing in closer to try and choke at the 2 tile land bridges. The green/yellow dot (I'm slightly color blind) back to 2S-1SE nestled in mountains and on lake. the purple? settled between the wines on the coast. This area will undoubtably be near our frontlines and the less distance to travel to reinforce will be appreciated later.
Agree with bringing them closer in and close the landbridge.
For green I would invision 2S from current spot provided that hill has access to fresh water from the lake. I think it does from the picture. There is than no way for the AI to pass through at all and the hill gives a nice denfence bonus too.
Between purple and white dots there is still a lot of land that can be filled in with up to 4 cities. Don't forget we need cities to produce our troops.

Originally posted by barbslinger
Lastly, frankly I'm nervous and don't want to disappoint anyone.
I know what you mean, feel often the same. But it is a game in the end. So just enjoy. ;)

barbslinger

Nov 13, 2003, 03:13 AM

Inherited turn

Goals – Build a few more workers to get infrastructure up. Plant the town by the wheat. Plant a town by wines and seal landbridge. Hook up dyes. Another settler built. Infrastructure.

Looked at the idea of going scientist in Azuchi. Will do it the next two turns at no waste of shields. Need 14 more for another spearman and can get 6-4-4 to still complete in 3. I had said in previous post a granary but I was trying to recall while at work.

Changed Koromo to worker to complete when it grows. Sent Ian of Nagoya to Koromo.

Kuroda diplo- Would not trade contact with Mori and Calligraphy for our 2 contacts and all our gold. Will trade contact with Mori and nearly all his gold, 90, for our 2 contacts. Did deal. Will let cost drop. Takeda only has 20g and Toku 46. Mori has little money and 7 towns (Polite), for now.

Hit Enter

IBT – Squid rolls by Alan.

1. 1450BC
Alan coming home. David on hill to look around. Alice and Bonnie complete irrigation on grassland? Start road to soon to be planted town by wheat. Hans and settler head for red dot. Bert jumps on mountain to look around. We are blocked from exploring SE.
Writing can be had for 5gpt and 310. Nah.
Change 1 Azuchi pop to Scientist 0% lux and 0% science. 9gpt for this turn.

IBT -

2. 1425BC
Nagoya completes worker Clyde > Temple Can be vetoed to Kensai (both 10 turns away) Clyde will road towards Koromo. No deals made by anyone. Lux to 10% and 1 ISE pop to taxman.

IBT – Mori building colossus.

3. 1400BC
Azuchi spearman > worker. Ise Settler > temple to get extra Iron. Warrior David finds another Iron near Takeda deep in SW. Spear and settler head for wines. Suzuka founded on red dot. Set to barracks. Azuchi spear sent to Ise. Alice to road cow and Bonnie on towards Suzuka. Bert watching to see if settler from Kuroda heads to wines anytime soon. Will need road to there ASAP or defense. Hard to protect. On that note, changed Ise temple to Spear in 5.

Diplo- Takeda and Toku both have writing now. Best deal is contact with Mori and 65g to toku for writing and then Takeda contact with Mori for 60g. Kuroda may be PO’ed he missed out on the contact deal! Liturature in 32 at 70% at a –1gpt loss. We have 355. Dumped scientist to tax man.

Thinking about the GL and I don’t think these warring nations will go Lit. Where should we put it?

IBT-

4. 1375BC
Moved warrior/explorers around. MM’ed Azuchi – Nagoya to give Nagoya extra food with Azuchi worker due next turn. Clown for Azuchi 1 turn. Lit in 37 now? Science to 80%. Back to 31. Loss of scientist was 6 turns worth?

IBT – Takeda warrior/settler pair pop by Alan in the DEEP SW heading N looking to cross Tokuland or most like wheat right next to Toku. They’ll be fightin’ soon.

5. 1350BC
Azuchi builds worker > Spear. Worker heads for dye hookup.
Lux still 10%

IBT - Nada

6. 1325BC
Moving warriors. Workers working.
Diplo – zippo. Toku has the most cash with 65.

IBT -
Nothing

7. 1300BC
Moved Alice from finished road under cow in Ise to soon to be mine NW of Ise. Settler pair made it to wines and will plant next turn. Decided to build embassies with closest neighbors.
Toku – 80% science, 1 dye, Temple, 3 spears and Oracle in 6
Kuroda – 100% science, 1dye, palace only, 2 spears and, sorry again Kuroda, Oracle in 8.

IBT – Toku warrior pops close to our soon to be wine town.

8. 1275BC
ISE Spear to Palace prebuild – Kuromo worker > temple. Winegaki settled > warrior to be upgraded later. Bert starts back to protect Winegaki and notices Kurodan settler pair getting close. New spear also heading to Winegaki. Alan and David still heading home. That Takedan pair must have went through Toku?

Diplo – No deals. Are they studying? Takeda only cautious.

IBT – Kuroda settles Tanabi really close to Winegaki. Culture clash coming.

9. 1225BC
Changed winegaki to Temple. Ise to Kensai and Nagoya to prebuild. Alan spots a pictish barb while coming home.

IBT – Barb beat up somebody! Barbslinger will get him next turn.

10. 1200BC Do the years change here or did I screw up?
I lost Alan 1-3 (tears) Nothing much else to say. I didn’t sling ‘em.

Diplo – Looks like Kuroda came up with Maps – Now everyone has it. I know Takeda had about 14 dollars to his name last turn!?

Score: 206

I think diplo went real well. Worried about how spread we are.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-1200_BC.SAV)

mad-bax

Nov 13, 2003, 06:18 AM

Ted: You are UP

TedJackson

Nov 13, 2003, 08:45 AM

I'll pick it up this evening

Ted

LordKestrel

Nov 13, 2003, 11:48 AM

Barbslinger -- I should've mentioned that I was irrigating that grassland so that we could get irrigation over to the cow, so that Ise would grow faster. Ise is at +3fpt, getting the cow wet would take it to +4fpt, which lets it grow twice as fast as a standard +2fpt town.

Those dots where just the spots I thought of that would get coast and/or rivers, not neccessarily the only spots to plant. I agree with moving the green dot down a few squares, I didn't notice that site when I was making the map.

As for the wines, there is no spot to plant to seal the land bridge, so we could plant directly on the middle wine, which would waste one food, but give us fresh water, a defensive bonus and guarantee that we control all three wines. Another spot might be southwest of the wines, on the plains tile. It gets freshwater and leaves room for another city north of the wines.

TedJackson

Nov 13, 2003, 02:43 PM

Got it

play tomorrow.

Ted

TedJackson

Nov 14, 2003, 08:04 AM

Pre-flight checks... OK

Pre-turn
Push Research to 90% (12 turns @ -4 gpt, 257gp in the Bank)
Koromo switches to Barracks (from Temple) - need vet units
Winegaki switches to Barracks (from Temple) - need vet units
Azuchi switches to Settler (coincides with growth) - need to get to the South ASAP
I'm not sure about the pre-build in Nagoya - what's it for? Without a Temple it's going to be a problem to manage. As there are 30 shields in the box I switch to Temple.
Check trade opportunities:
Kuroda (polite, +1 city, no Iron) wants WM + 103gp for his WM (119gp)
Mori (polite, +3 cities, no Iron) hasn't got MM yet (0gp)
Takeda (cautious, +3 cities, no Iron) wants WM + 6gp for his WM (12gp)
Tokugawa (polite, +3 cities, no Iron) wants WM + 85gp for his WM (38gp)
Buy WM from Takeda for WM + 6gp
Buy WM from Tokugawa for WM + 7gp (was 85gp)
Sell WM to Takeda for WM + 18gp (already 5gp up :))
Sell WM to Kuroda for WM + 11gp
Sell WM to Tokugawa for WM + 25gp
The best deal I can get on MM is WM + 251gp from Takeda which is too expensive as I can't sell it on
A quick run through the city screens shows that Ise has an irrigated Grassland but the Worker isn't irrigating the Cow ???
MM Ise for growth in 1

There is (occupied) land to the North of Mori. Making contact should be a priority as soon as we can afford MM. If Mori get MM during my turns then the price should have dropped enough to do a straight cash buy otherwise we'll pick it up in the Literature trading round for peanuts.
It looks as if we should concentrate Azuchi & Ise on Worker/Settler production and military everywhere else.
Just let me add that I'm playing this game with no pre-knowledge of the map so if my choices seem a little strange to those of you who played or part played this game I apologise for not taking advantage of knowledge I don't have :)

Finally...

Press button
Nagoya Temple - Kensai
Herodotus' power rankings don't mention us at all :(

1 - 1175BC
Carla (2 NE Koromo) road
Di (NE Koromo) moves to Horses West of Koromo
Bonnie (2 SE Suzuka) road
Bert N
David E
Spear fort Winegaki
Hawk WM for 23gp
MM still 280gp

IBT
Tokugawa start Pyramids
Hamamatsu (Tokugawa) complete Oracle
Mori start Pyramids
Kuroda start Pyramids
Takeda start Pyramids

2 - 1150BC
Di (Horses, W Koromo) road
Bert N
David SE
Hawk WM for a net gain of 0gp

IBT
Azachi Settler - Kensai

3 - 1125BC
Settler & Otomo escort 3SE
MM Azachi for growth + Kensai on same turn (whoops that causes unhappiness)
MM Azachi for more gold and switch production to Otomo
Alice mine - road (never leave a tile until it's roaded)
Bert N
David E - spots land
Winegaki switches to Worker
Hawk WM for 2gp
Nobody has connected their Iron yet

IBT
Ise Kensai - Granary

4 - 1100BC
Claus heads for Azuchi (garrison)
Kensai fort Ise
Settler & Otomo S
Bert N
David N
MM Nagoya for extra production (growth in 1)
Hawk WM

IBT
Suzuka Barracks - Worker (get that Wheat irrigated)
Takeda start Colossus

5 - 1075BC
Settler & escort SE
Claus fort Azachi
Elli (2W Azuchi) road - NE, mine
Di (W Koromo) road - moves to SE Koromo
Bert N
David N
Lux 0% (Wines hooked up)
Hawk WM
Still no Iron hooked up

IBT
Tokugawa start Colossus

6 - 1050BC
Bert NE
Alice (NW Ise) road - S, irrigate
Settler & escort S
Di (SE Koromo) road
David NE
Research 80% (still 5 turns @ -2gpt)
Takeda wants WM + 14gp for his WM, has he met soneone? I buy. He seems to have explored a big chunk of the Southwest
I only make 8gp from selling the map

IBT
Azuchi Otomo - Kagesuki (Horseman)
Nagoya Kensai - Kagesuki (Horseman)
Winekagi Worker - Barracks

7 - 1025BC
Flo (Winegaki) NE
Settler & escort arrive on site
Otomo (Azuchi) 3SE
Carla (2NE Koromo) road - 2E, mine
Kensai fort Nagoya
Bert NE
David NE
MM Ise for max production (growth in 1)
Hawk WM
Kuroda have Maths but they want 278gp + 7gpt for it and no-one has enough gold for us to recover the cost. Another candidate for the Literature trading round.

8 - 1000BC
Handa founded - Barracks
Otomo moves to S Suzuka
Flo road
Bert E
David NE
Otomo fort Handa
Bonnie road - SE
MM Azuchi to take the Lambs from Nagoya to get Settler & growth in 4 turns
Hawk WM
Kuroda, Takeda & Tokugawa now have Confucianism

IBT
Kuroda has a border expansion which traps Bert in their territory. They ask him to leave - I agree

9 - 975BC
Bonnie road
Otomo fort Suzuka
Di road - 3NE
David NE
Bert N
Research 70% (still 2 turns @ +3gpt, 288gp in the Bank)
Hawk WM
Kuroda & Takeda have Civil Service

IBT
Suzuka Worker - Otomo (can be changed as needed)

10 - 950BC
Gilda (Suzuka) NE
Alice (SW Ise) irrigate - S
Di E, mine
Bert NE
David E
Research 50% (Lit at EoT @ +7gpt, 288gp in the Bank)

Tech status
Kuroda (polite, +2 cities, Iron not connected) up Maths, Confucianism, Civil Service & Map Making (1gp)
Mori (polite, +2 cities, Iron connected) tech parity (45gp)
Takeda (cautious, Iron not connected) up Maths, Confucianism, Civil Service & Map Making (106gp)
Tokugawa (polite, +3 cities, Iron not connected) up Maths, Confucianism, & Map Making (62gp)

Firaxis Score: 246

Notes
The next player should have a good trading round next turn when Literature is available (I was very tempted to play the extra turn myself :))
Azuchi will build Settler in 2 turns
Bonnie has 8 turns left roading the mountain (WSW Winegaki)
Flo has 4 turns left on roading the Wine hill (NE Winegaki). She could then move to SW Winegaki and road (finishing the same time as Bonnie) to get those Wines hooked up to our Empire.
Ise gets Granary & growth in 4 turns. We might be able to pop a 1 turn Worker then a Settler. If we can't manage the 1 turn Worker (due to waste) then just go for the Settler and use the Slider for 4 turns (until Wines are hooked up)

Core & Dotmap Suggestions
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-950BC-Core+dotmap-s.jpg
I think we should send our Settlers to grab the area round the Lake and the river South of the lake with the Lambs. 3SE, 1E from Handa is also a useful location given the island to the South. 3NE, 1E from Suzuka would be another nice chokepoint if we get the opportunity.

New neighbours
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-950BC-Bert.jpg
Bert is heading for the Red point where he could camp out to spot new neighbours.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-BC950.zip), the 975BC autosave is > there < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-AutosaveBC975.zip) (for MB to get the QSC score)

Ted

mad-bax

Nov 14, 2003, 09:33 AM

Shevek is up.

The reason the comparative scores are not up yet is because "my team" have only just completed their third turn. :p

Thanks for posting the QSC save. I'm not sure I'm clever enough to score it though. I'll try.

TedJackson

Nov 14, 2003, 09:36 AM

PM Dianthus. He has a tool for QSC scoring.

Ted

Shevek

Nov 14, 2003, 12:10 PM

Got it. Will play some time tomorrow.

barbslinger

Nov 14, 2003, 08:19 PM

The Kensei is our UU. If we want to delay our GA we have to play nice for a while until the land is sucked up. Also, this is the 2nd game I am playing as a Take over the world goal. All my wins seem to be Space, diplo. I don't think I am as big a war-monger as I would like myself to believe. On that note, I have read quite a number of conquests by various players. Sir Pleb to name one and they seem to kick some a$$ right out of the gate around 0BC.
Also, reviewing my Korean GOTM saves I notice the Oda do great in the beginning with lots of land but get beat down fairly early. Being humans I know we'll overcome the inexperienced AI's failures, but I wonder if the AI's problem was being to spread out to defend. If that was the case it would seem imperitive to build more cities closer to Azuchi and Nagoya for more military. I'll appreciate everyones comments on when war may commence and if we need to get some tighter built cities.
This is my 1st SG and it is on my mind a lot. The screenshot from Ted's save is my work desktop background just so I can study a bit at work. I was thinking about posting some screenies of the full island from the Korean GOTM if anyone is interested so we can see the layout. I think I figured out the sceen upload. I don't know if other teams are looking at the past GOTM but those who played it know the layout.

Good luck Shevek

TedJackson

Nov 15, 2003, 07:57 AM

@barbslinger
As I've mentioned several times in this thread I came to this game with no pre-knowledge and wanted the surprises to be just that, surprises.

Ted

LordKestrel

Nov 15, 2003, 12:02 PM

I'm in the same boat as TJ, and would like to remain ignorant of the map until we discover it.

Shevek

Nov 15, 2003, 05:21 PM

Pre flight checks OK
Enter

925 BC - 1
Discover Lit and have the honour of trading it
To Takeda -> Lit for Civil service + 47g
to Tokugawa -> Lit + Civ Service for Math + Confucianism + WM + 15g
to Kuroda -> Lit + WM + 148g -> Map making (they must have been close to Lit themselves as they only offered 2g for it)
to Mori -> Confucianism for 46g (all they had)

we now have tech parity with all (and 255g in the bank); only the Mori are down Math, Civ service, MM, Lit and broke
What to research next?
Shamaisn is cheapest (18 turns) and will allow research of monarchy
Republic is most expensive (50 turns at full, 40 turns at 80%) but AI tends to charge through the nose for this
Contruction or currency are in between and might be good for trading around
Decide on Republic at 80% (40 turns) as I always find it hard to obtain from AI and we will want to get out of despotism ASAP (hope this is not :smoke: )

Alice road towards Handa
Gilda irrigates wheat E of Suzuka
Ellie road - N
David NE
Bert N

900 BC - 2
Azuchi settler - spear
Nagoya kagesuke (horse) - spear
David NE
Bert NE
Elli road
Carla + Di SE

IT
Takeda build Great library

875 BC - 3
Carla + Di road, Elli mine
David N
Bert NE
buy worker from Takeda for 115g + WM, S

850 BC - 4
Ise granary - settler (only produces 8 shield so worker would be wasting shields too badly)
lux to 10% due to growth at Ise
slave worker road
Carla S,S
Di mine
Flo finishes wine road - SW,SW
Bert NE
David N

IT
Korea finishes Colossus
Tokugawa settles on lake in west, our settler is too late :cry:
Mori settle on landbridge in east

825 BC - 5
Nagoya spear - junk, spear goes to Azuchi
Carla road
Flo road
Gilda road
David E

800 BC - 6
Azuchi spear - settler, spear goes to Ise
settler that was headed for lake founds Yokkachi in mountains E of capital, spearman
David N

IT
Get forbidden palace message
get contacted by Chosogabe

775 BC - 7
Koroma barracks - archer
contact Chosogabe (yellow), we are up math, civ service, confuc, lit
sell them confucianisn for WM, TM and all their gold (107)
they inhabit an island of their own north of Mori land
Ellie goes towards Koromo
Di S, S
Alice S
Bert finishes his camping and starts moving back to the home land

750 BC - 8
Handa barracks - warrior
Alice road
Carla + Di S
Bonnie finishes road and wines are online, lux back to 0
Bonnie and Flo irrigate plain
Ellie mine
sell contact with Chosogabe to
Takeda for 158g + WM + TM
Tokugawa for 70g + WM + TM
Kuroda for 56g + WM + TM
Mori for 26g + WM + TM
notch up science to 100%

730 BC - 9
Ise settler - settler, sent south with spear escort
Nagoya junk - Kagesuke

710 BC - Azuchi settler - worker, settler goes south wit spear escort
Suzuka spear - worker
Slave worker to goats
barb horse appears at Koromo, Edgar moves out and kills him (gets redlined)

IT
Kuroda settle in OUR south, the cheek :mad:

690 BC - 10
Slave worker mines goats
I leave the settler unmoved in south as intended settle spot taken by Kuroda
The next player can decide where to settle

We are growing slowly and seem to be loosing the race for land grab.
On the positive side, we are the richest in our corner of the map.
We are on tech parity and Chosogabe do not know civil service, Mori do not know Lit and Civil service

Firaxis score: 295

Edit:
The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-690_BC.SAV)

@Barbslinger, pls do not post the map. All will be revealed in due time. ;)
But you are right with dense build for games with military goals.
We will not have much chance to spread much further anyway as the AIs start encroaching on 'our' territory already.

barbslinger

Nov 15, 2003, 09:19 PM

I will keep that info to myself. Are we going for the GL? That was one of the reasons I went Lit instead of Military techs. We may not be able to get it now unless we set one of our N or S of capitol cities to it and improve it for shields. If we got it we could turn off tech for a while and use cash for upgrades when we go to war. However, the Korean island will probably get to it 1st so we would be flushing shields. The island were on was about 6 techs back in GOTM when we found them. Probably due to the warring that obviously happened.
With our current cash lead we could start a phony war soon and drag our targets neighbors into it to trim both their forces a bit and then bite off the target civ's border cities for our own usage. Like that new one to our south.
I was wondering about the Republic choice since that gov is so-so for war. It will have great trade value though if we get it first.
Anyone for building a galley and "trying" to find the other Civs?

cracker

Nov 15, 2003, 09:33 PM

Also, Barbslinger the Kensai is not your UU. What test did you run to extract that pearl of wisdom??

mad-bax

Nov 16, 2003, 02:07 AM

Denyd: You are UP.

barbslinger

Nov 16, 2003, 04:39 AM

Cracker,

I attacked with a Kense in a test with our save. It started a golden age. It wasn't a hard test. Built one, attacked a warrior and GL has begun.
Also, thanks for the work on making this game possible.

TedJackson

Nov 16, 2003, 05:56 AM

@barbslinger

PLEASE do not post spoiler info in this thread. If you want to discuss the UU with cracker then PM him.

Ted

mad-bax

Nov 16, 2003, 08:24 AM

It is my intention that this game should be fun for EVERYONE to play. With this in mind PLEASE do not discuss information that you have gained through past experience using this scenario, OR by playing ahead.

Some members of this roster did not take the opportunity to play the original GOTM24 and I am sure that they would prefer to play the game without knowledge of foresight. In particular, playing ahead to discover the Oda UU completely nullifies one of the pre-game conditions which everyone had the opportunity to vote upon, and which was EMPHATICALLY decided upon, namely that the UU should be discovered during the course of the game.

I am delighted that people are as enthusiastic as they are about the game, but please, lets try to channel that enthusiasm into the game and not into spoiling the many surprises that will unfold during its course.

Thanks.

barbslinger

Nov 16, 2003, 11:20 AM

I want to apologize to all, especially Ted, for the information I have been trying to provide recently. I didn't realize the UU was off limits also. In all games I have played the UU was a known entity, not something to be discovered. I will refrain from using past knowledge from the GOTM in my posts and try to play as if this is the 1st time I have ever seen these Civs.
I hope I have not been degrading anyones playing experience and that this SG experience will continue to be an education for myself.

TedJackson

Nov 16, 2003, 11:28 AM

Apology accepted barbslinger,

let's get on and enjoy the game :)

Ted

denyd

Nov 16, 2003, 12:07 PM

Ok, I got it and I'll start in about 5 hours (RL first).

Since it seems a couple of you are on line at this time a question:

I know our long term goal is domination, but what are our short term goals:

1. Science push
2. Rapid expansion
3. Military growth
4. Establish culture to prevent flips
5. Trading in increase th treasury for unit upgrades
6. Wonder building

I'm concerned that we're heading in a couple of different directions. We need to set a couple of priorites up and work toward them and keep open potential opportunities for other area gains.

From my own perspective, I think we are in the latter stages of the initial land grab with maybe 20-30 turns left before most of the obvious space is gone. I'll try to keep getting settlers out there and have each of the new cities build a barracks before starting units (slipping in a temple along the way). I'm thinking, with the expception of our 2-3 core cities, that should be the build path.

As Cracker pointed out, the Kensai is not our UU, so we should be able to wage an early war with them without fear of an unplanned GA. The Kuroda would seem to be the weakest of our neighbors, so once a Kensai force of about 10 can be assembled, let's head east.

I'm thinking the Wonders will come with conquests and if we can start attacking soon, we won't need to upgrade troops for a while. I'm also remembering how sucessful pointy stick research can be.

I'll check back before starting.

:beer:

barbslinger

Nov 16, 2003, 12:43 PM

I like the idea of warring soon, since it is conquest, but I'm still concerned with our being so spread out. IMHO we should get a couple more cities. One between Koromo and Nagoya and another on the coast between Suzuka and Nagoya. If we can also get one E of Suzuka to block land bridge it would be nice. More core cities will help to produce military. We now have 5 ring cities, 2 more is +40% more military production capability. :D When we do go to war I would also hope to catch our target in a two front war through alliances while keeping our neighbor to our rear very happy. I am at work without Civ but I think I'd like to get after eith of the shmucks that grabbed our lake or our southern territory.

TedJackson

Nov 16, 2003, 03:12 PM

Now that the AI are on our turf it seems a good time to "prod some buttock" :)

Adding some "filler" cities for military production is also a good idea.

go for it denyd

Ted

a space oddity

Nov 16, 2003, 03:47 PM

I'm a little concerned about the spreadiness too. I think we need to fill the gaps ASAP and start thinking about an FP location, this could play a role in the location of the fill-up cities.

And like others have said, let's start building Raxes-n-Troops in the new cities and select our first target. :cool:

denyd

Nov 17, 2003, 12:24 AM

FIRST THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW490BC.zip)

GOTM 24 SG – Turn 2 Recap

Turn 0 – 690 BC – Switch to my preferences – After looking over our position, I decide my goals for this turn will be to add as many cities as possible to our little empire and try to grow the military at a later date, there’s still a lot land to be claimed in our local vicinity - Switch Nagoya to settler (I want those cows) – Change Azuchi to settler – Switch Suzuka to settler – make the decision to make the third ring at 12 – Move Settler & escort towards city site – move warrior SW towards city site
Trade check: Neighbors Tokugawa & Kuroda do not have iron, Kuroda also no horses.
IBT: A settler & escort pass Bert

Turn 1 – 670 BC – When did we get a boat??? – Junk heads NE to circle the island – Carla & Di move to connect Yokkachi – Spearman & settler move SW towards next city site – Bonnie starts to mine grassland – Gilda moves to help Bonnie – Ares (horseman) moves to hill to block Mori visitors – Bert W trying to get home – Edgar W to mountain to heal – David SW spots BV with Tokugawa warrior next door – Settler & Escort move to city site
Trade check: Sell WM around for 31g + 5 WM – no other changes

IBT: Our junk survives (3/3) a barb galley attack – Tokugawa warrior kills BW and disperses BV – Nagoya completes a settler starts another – Ise completes a settler starts another – Handa completes warrior starts another – Kagoshima (Shimaza) completes Pyramids – Kyoto (Kuroda) complete Great Library – Seoul (Korea) completes Great Wall – Note: Kyoto with Great Library is now #1 target when wars begin

Turn 2 – 650 BC – Settler & Ajax leave Ise for new city site – Achilles with Settler move E towards city site – Carla & Di start road – Athos & Settler leave Nagoya for cow city site – Edgar rests – Hector & Settler move to city site – Perry begins to circle the island – Bert moves to jump aboard Perry next turn – Ares moves to clog pass – Thor SW to scout – David SW to look for barbs
Trade check: Trade WM + 115g to Takeda for Slave2 (worker) – Slave2 sent to help Slave1 – WM nets 2g + 1 TM

IBT: Takeda demand TM + 39g, I give as we’re not yet ready for war

Turn 3 – 630 BC – Bonnie & Gilda & Flo move to BG to road / mine – Ajax & settler move next to city site – Ares reserves site for them – Thor E to check for barbs – Slave2 helps with mine – Athos & Settler move towards cows – Elle completes mine and moves to road to cow city – Edgar covers Elle – David W to scout for barbs – Settler founds Moriyama-Ku starts barracks – Hector MP in Moriyama-Ku – Bert hops aboard Perry – Perry continues trip around island – Achilles & settler reach city site
Trade check: WM nets 5g

IBT: Kuroda ask Perry to leave territory, I say ok – Mori settler/escort moving along SW – Azuchi builds settler starts another

Turn 4 – 610 BC – Settler from Azuchi sent to SE city site – Di & Carla complete road and move to road / mine BG – Settler founds Kita-ku starts barracks – Thor SW – Ajax & Settler reach city site – Ares moves to block Mori settler – David W barb hunting – Edgar rests and Elle starts road – Athos & Settler move nearer to site – Perry on N tip of island – Achilles MP in Kita-ku – Notice Yokkachi building military without barracks, switch to temple
Trade check: Kuroda & Tokugawa with Construction (won’t trade) – Mori down Civil Service but nothing to trade (6g + WM)

IBT: Mori settler moves into our land – Kuroda archer moving through heading for

Turn 5 – 590 BC - David SW – Thor SW – Bonnie’s bunch completes road starts mine – Settler founds Kasugai starts barracks – Ares moves to block Mori settler – Carla’s crew starts road – Edgar moves to mountain to look around and spots Tokugawa Settler / Spearman heading this way – Perry continues the tour – Ajax MP in Kasugi – Settler heading for S of Winegaki site
Trade Check: Only change is now Takeda have construction

IBT: Kuroda drops off a settler to claim a site I wanted – Winegaki completes barracks starts temple – Takahashi (Mori) build Great Lighthouse

Turn 6 – 570 BC – Edgar moves to block Tokugawa settler – Athos & Settler move next to city spot – Thor SW – David SW – Alice completes road to Handa moves to irrigate / road sheep – Ares moves to threaten Kuroda settler – Perry E to visit Chogosobe island – Settler switches from S of Winegaki to Kita-ku
Trade Check: nothing new

IBT: Kuroda plant city in a spot I wanted – Tokugawa settler backs off – Mori settler back in our territory – Nagoya completes settler starts Otomo Spearman – Ise complete settler starts temple – Handa completes Warrior starts Temple

Turn 7 – 550 BC – Alice starts a road - Settler sent to city site - Artemis sent to follow settler – Settler sent to city site – Bonnie’s bunch sent to road to new city site – Carla’s crew finishes road starts mine – Edgar sent to city site – Elle moves to road to new city Athos & Settler move to city site Thor & David start back home Odin & settler leave for new site - Switch Koromo to Temple
Trade Check: Shamanism known by Takeda, Kuroda & Tokugawa and will sell for 250g + WM, treasury is 345G –10gpt w/Republic due in 11, slider at 0-10-0, I think I’ll let Republic get those techs

IBT: Somebody must have gotten Currency, because massive Barbs by Kita-ku

Turn 8 – 530 BC – Bonnie’s bunch starts road – Settler and Odin return to Handa - Thor returns to Kita-ku – David heading there – Ares N to watch settler leave – Settler builds Ichinomiya starts barracks – Athos MP in Ichinomiya – Elle starts to road cow – Porthos & Settler reach site – Edgar & settler reach site – Artemis MP in Handa
Trade check: Tokugawa, Chosogabe with Construction, Currency & Shamanism, the others lack Currency

IBT: David watches 24 BH move west to say hello to Tokugawa – 1 BW heads to Kita-ku - Suzuka builds Settler starts Otomo spearman

Turn 9 – 510 BC – Settler sent to city site – Bonnie’s bunch completes road and moves to road to Kasugai – Settler founds Komaki starts barracks – Porthos MP in Komaki – Settler holes up in Handa until barbs are gone – Odin sent to Ise – Thor sent into the mountains to check on barbs – Settler founds Hikone starts temple – Edgar MP in Hikone – David moves in the mountains hoping to avoid BH stack – Perry on the coast of the Chosogabe island
Trade check: No changes

IBT: BH Swarm around area, but no attacks witnessed – Azuchi builds settler starts Otomo Spearman – Yokkachi builds temple starts barracks

Turn 10 – 490 BC – Carla’s crew completes mine moves to hills to start road to Kita-ku and horses – Settler reaches coastal city spot – Settler (from Azuchi) moves to settle on coastal hill – Odysseus & Settler leave Handa – Alice moves to road to Moriyama-ku – Thor SE to check for barbs – David N heading to Kita-ku until BH are gone – Ares moves to hill to watch for visitors – Odin MP in Ise
Trade Check:
Tokugawa: 13 cities, up 3 techs, 373g, weak in military against
Chosogabe: 8 cities, up 2 techs, 0g, weak
Mori: 11 cities, up 2 techs, 15g, average military
Kuroda: 11 cities, up 3 techs, 51g, average
Takeda: 14 cities, up 2 techs, 0g, average
Oda: 14 cities down 2-3 techs, 315g (-11gpt) Republic in 9 turns
Shamanism is available from all for 220-230g + WM

Notes: Settler on coast N of Suzuka is ready to settle, the settler S of Nagoya should continue to the SE hill on the coast to settle (that will finish the 5 ring) – Settler with Odysseus should move to the hill 2 S from current spot to settle in the 8 ring.

Recap: I managed to get 5 more cites on the map and have 3 more soon to be planted. I was not able to keep up with tech and maintain the research pace. The next player should be able to deal Republic and get us into the Middle Ages (The AI values it very highly). I got a couple of temples built to expand borders and have a few more on the way. It’s probably time to get a bunch of attacking military built. With the cities I added this turn we should have a solid production core to wage war from.

Firaxis score: 347 (in last place trailing leader Tokugawa 562)

Our little empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MPPTW490BC.jpg

a space oddity

Nov 17, 2003, 01:32 AM

That's looking much better. :goodjob: Denyd!

Got it, I'll probably play tonight.

edit: looked at the save and I'll focus on military build up in my turns. The Horsemen are very interesting with an attack of 2!

Shevek

Nov 17, 2003, 08:19 AM

Denyd, well done. Good call to go for settlers, settlers, settlers.

As for wonders, I think we rather capture them than building them.
BTW the boat was build during my 'reign' to get to the yellow border.

Shevek

Nov 17, 2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by denyd
I know our long term goal is domination, but what are our short term goals:

1. Science push
2. Rapid expansion
3. Military growth
4. Establish culture to prevent flips
5. Trading in increase th treasury for unit upgrades
6. Wonder building

I'm concerned that we're heading in a couple of different directions. We need to set a couple of priorites up and work toward them and keep open potential opportunities for other area gains.

Denyd, you are right we should discuss this.
I would say we go all out military. Build up troops and start taking the land we did not get before. Once we have a good chunk of land together with the recources and luxuries we can re-assess our position.
I would leave wonder building to the AI for a long time to come. The chances to snatch an important one are not too good anyway.

Science is a bit tricky in this game. The long research times just feel weird. What is the general opinion on how best to use this to our advantage?

Edit:
Have you seen the little comparision of scores at the top of this threat? Does not look bad for us, eh? :cool:
(OK, does not mean THAT much after only 3 turns, but still, cooool.)

barbslinger

Nov 17, 2003, 02:13 PM

The settlers look beautiful strolling towards their respective points of destiny. Looks like we'll have a nice base core to start our reign of conquest. :goodjob:
Looks like another border poking out quite prominently E of the Mori. You would think they would know them by now. Lets get the junk over to investigate. Smells like money to be made.
A war with Toku does not look good with all the mountains and fighting for that crappy border land seems unfruitful. So, shoot me if this strategy is weed but I like the idea of getting Mori to align with us against Kuroda. Mori has Iron hooked up near their capitol so they can prosecute a war nicely. We should be able to easily take Sanda and Sakai. Mori knocks off Nara (Iron) the most likely target for them. Hopefully, Kuroda will take the two Mori cities of Yonago and Tottori that are currently a thorn (buffer) in both our sides so that we can then retake/resettle them and put them in our hands. We can then go for either Wakayama (future FP?, iron) and those lands (4 wools), OR Tanabe and on to Kyoto to grab the GL to get tech and possibly abandon in a retreat (recapture later of course), to go for Wakayama (FP?) and lands.
We have 8 warriors that need upgraded for 320g and we'll need Otomo cover for Kensei's. We also need quite a few more workers. We only have 7 for our 14 towns. .5/town is rather low isn't it?
Takeda looks like they will be our problem down the road. They still have great land to settle on the far end of their lands for 5-6 more cities. Toku vs. Takeda should be something to instigate down the line too.

denyd

Nov 17, 2003, 02:45 PM

First of all, congratulations to Space Oddity, Mad-Bax & TedJackson for a successful 20k Double Whammy victory, watching the wheels spinning in your heads was fun :goodjob:

Now on to our game, I like our current city situation using the existing settlers to add:
1. On the coast N of Suzuka
2. On the coastal hill W of Nagoya
3. On the coastal hill SE of Handa

And with 1 or 2 more along the coast S of Kita-ku and one NW of Hitone on the coast, we’ll be out of local area for expansion.

On to the military portion of the game: :hammer:
Target #1 should be the Kuroda (green), we should be able to take Sakai & Sanda (the 2 coastal cities SE of Ise) without much of a fight. It would be nice to get them to size 2 before attacking to avoid the auto-raze possibility. A surgical strike taking Tanabe, Gifu & Kyoto (with GL) is my suggestion. We’ll probably need 10-15 Kensai with 4-6 Otomo to make it happen. After Kyoto falls, declare war on the Mori, then get an alliance with Kuroda against Mori in the peace deal (will need embassy before declaring) to keep them both busy, then send our units back to take Yonago & Tottori from the Mori. It also might be a good idea to get Tokugawa as an ally in a proxy war against Takeda. When we get the Republic, try trading it to Takeda, Mori & Kuroda for available techs so they are in anarchy when we declare and use the Republic as a lure to get Tokugawa as an ally.

It’s probably time to start talking about Great Leader usage. My normal order of preference in a military game is Leo’s (cheaper upgrades), Sun Tzu (barracks for all, skipped in an islands game), FP (in the middle of conquered territory), Army (when all else fails) and Heroic Epic (if we’ve had a victorious army), depending on what’s available. Since we’re military, we should get a lot of elite promotions, if you haven’t read SirPleib’s leader farming thesis, now would be a good time.

:beer:

EDIT: Cross post with Barbslinger - Your plan using the Mori to remove the iron is good, but they've also got iron near Wakayama (not sure if it's hooked up). I do like the idea of getting Tokugawa and Takeda fighting, soften them up for us.

a space oddity

Nov 17, 2003, 04:04 PM

Ok guys, I haven't read the last posts since I was already playing. I think you will not be disappointed. :)

Pre-turn:
Check diplo. There's a 2-fer possible but this will bite in our treasury. I decide to indeed wait for it to complete (in 9 turns). We still have to build our infra anyway before we could even think about building markets etc.
MM is optimal. :goodjob:

IT
Toku wants a word... he wants 15g and our WM for his... make it a straight TM deal instead.
The Barb Horsies pick on the Toku city of Shizuoka. Good!

470BC - turn 1
Di & Carla start road.
Ellie starts a mine on the cow.
Ogaki founded, starts Rax.
Flo, Gilda & Bonnie connect Kasugai to the roadnet.
Hey, Republic is now in 7 turns, does someone have it already? :( Not anyone we know, phew
Diplo situation unchanged.

IT
The Barbs elitify the defender in Shizuoka. :(
A barb galley shows up near Moriyama-ku.
A purple Junk is near Inchonmya, I hope they won't settle 'our' peninsula.

450BC - turn 2
Flo, Gilda & Bonnie move to the new found city.
1 Settler arrives at spot, will found next turn.
1 Settler will arrive next turn.
Switch Handa from Temple to Settler, I want 1 more in short notice near the spot we *need* to settle.
Some cities will grow next turn, need to watch that.
Diplo check: Takeda has the Republic, we still need 5 turns. :( The 2-fer is still around but I guess the others (save the toku) are not rich enough to buy it. Have to stick it out.

IT
Barb galley moves away, as does the Toku Junk.
Nagoya Otomo Spear -> Kagesuke (Power Horse)
Ise Temple -> Settler

430BC - turn 3
Switch Handa again, the spear will be ready when the settler is (in 4 turns).
Found New Azuchi (already used up the names, rename it to Embichi..), starts worker.
Check happiness: all ok, have to watch Ise though.
Check diplo: Takeda have not sold Republic yet, good, due in 3 turns.

IT
Settler pairs begin strolling our land, time for some judicious blocking, we're in no shape to risk war, yet...

410BC - turn 4
Junk finds black borders!
Found TeJay, starts Rax.
Toku has put a city on the peninsula.
F1: OK
Diplo: now news

IT
One settler pair moves away, the other sneaks by (not enough units yet).
Azuchi Otomo Spear -> Settler
Suzuka Spear -> Kagesuke

390BC - turn 5
Thor attacks barb camp, wins and promotes.
Our Junk makes contact with the Shimazu, who still lack Literature. Sell them Lit for their WM and 117g.
This gives all kinds of possiblities with Republic due next turn. :) Can also turn the slider back a notch (1.9.0) @ -9gpt with 414g in the Bank

IT
Shimazu wants us out of their waters, sure.
Republic comes in, start Shamanism (not really of course :) )
Kita-ku Rax -> Warrior (not connected)
Komaki Rax -> Kagesuke

370BC - turn 6
Trade Republic to the Chosogabe for Currency, Shamanism, WM and 47g. (all they have)
Trade Republic for Construction, WM and 30g to the Mori. (They go from polite to annoyed, I guess they instantly revolt.)
Trade Toku our WM for theirs and 60g.
Trade Shimazu our WM for WM and 23g. (all they have, still strange you can trade maps without them getting contact)
Trade Kuroda our WM for WM and 59g.
Trade Takeda our WM for WM and 60g.
Research Feudal Warlords at (0.8.2) @ -14gpt with 684g in the bank.
Use some of the money for upgrading our warriors.
We now have average military power compared to all the others.

IT
Ise Settler -> Kagesuke
Koromo Temple -> Worker
Handa Otomo spear -> Temple
Yokkachi Rax -> Kagesuke

350BC - turn 7
Hawk WM around, no new techs.
Upgrade warrior in Yokkachi.
Move slider up to (0.10.0) for Feudal Warlords in 22 turns.

IT
Ichinomia Walls -> Jap Catapult

330BC - turn 8
Settler is on his way to a dream spot, two warriors are present to keep competitors at bay.
Diplo: no news

IT
Azuchi Kagesuke -> Settler
Nagoya Kagesuke -> Spear
Hikone Temple -> Jap Catapult

310BC - turn 9
Start revolution (suddenly realized we are religious :rolleyes: )
MM to get an +4gpt income.
We are now strong vs the Kuroda, average vs the rest.

IT
A squid threatens our Junk.

290BC - turn 10
We are a republic, fire all the taxmen and scientists. The slider goes to (4.5.1) for Warlords in 19 turns and -19gpt (491g in our coffers).

We still have monopoly on our contact with the Shimazu. I'm hoping we can use it for more nifty tech trading in the near future.

Firaxis score: 430.

a space oddity

Nov 17, 2003, 04:08 PM

And here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-290BC.zip)

And a picture of our current strength:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4-PTW-290BC.JPG

edit ... and add 3 Power Horses to that total.

a space oddity

Nov 17, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by denyd
First of all, congratulations to Space Oddity, Mad-Bax & TedJackson for a successful 20k Double Whammy victory, watching the wheels spinning in your heads was fun :goodjob:

Thanks Denyd. :) Our heads were spinning allright :p, especially when Joan went grumpy, and India too strong. Very enjoyable game that was. I think I'm starting to :love: Anarchy. :crazyeye:

Now on to our game, I like our current city situation using the existing settlers to add:
1. On the coast N of Suzuka
2. On the coastal hill W of Nagoya
3. On the coastal hill SE of Handa

And with 1 or 2 more along the coast S of Kita-ku and one NW of Hitone on the coast, we’ll be out of local area for expansion.

I hope you agree on the current positions. Still a settler underway, and one being constructed.

On to the military portion of the game: :hammer:
Target #1 should be the Kuroda (green), ...

I agree, and now we are already 'strong' vs them.

...When we get the Republic, try trading it to Takeda, Mori & Kuroda for available techs so they are in anarchy when we declare and use the Republic as a lure to get Tokugawa as an ally.

Most AI already had the Republic. :(

mad-bax

Nov 17, 2003, 04:27 PM

Daveshack is UP

DaveShack

Nov 17, 2003, 05:59 PM

Got it, expect to play sometime between the 10pm and 2am feedings... :D

denyd

Nov 17, 2003, 06:08 PM

Space: Looking good, glad to see you didn't fry your brain on the double whammy :D

Good job on the settler placement. There's still room for 1 more settler E-NE of Nagoya and probably room for 2-3 more S & SW of Kita-Ku. Nice to see our military stronger than someone. It's probably time to start getting those offensive units ready for the Kuroda.

Since I played this game already, it wouldn't be fair for me to steer any suicide galleys :spank: so if I up when Perry gets around the point I'll just keep him on the coast until I pass the baton.

That Tokugawa city on our peninsula is future worm food :hammer:

I'm interested to see how big the island is off the coast of Moriyama-ki. If it's large we'll want to add it to our collection before it gets to well developed. I couldn't help but notice how many cities the Shimaza built while all alone on that island.

Starting to get interesting folks, Tokugawa's size is a little intimidating. Hopefully Takeda can take him down a couple of notches.

:beer:

LordKestrel

Nov 17, 2003, 06:31 PM

Nice work Space. I'll take a look at the save in a few hours when I get home, and comment on it then, but based on your turnlog, things look good.

barbslinger

Nov 18, 2003, 03:34 AM

Should we get a pre-build going for Sun-Zu's?

DaveShack

Nov 18, 2003, 12:43 PM

Going is a little slower than usual, 1-2 turns at a time, with a 2 1/2 year old and a 1 week old... ;) Here is a turn 5 update.

The island S of Moriyama-ku is just big enough for 2 cities, one Kuroda and one Takeda.

A Shimazu junk was about to make contact, so had to take gold instead of techs for the contact. Got a grand total of 250g+14gpt+2 workers+WMx5 for the contact, and bumped science to 70%.

One city founded in S between the lambs, one ready to build in 2 turns on the coast hills W-NW of Oqaki.

We add 3 Kagesuki in the next 3 turns. There are already 2 stacked next to Winegaki and 1 enroute. Once the units shadowing the Kuroda settlers complete their capture missions, there will be 3 more units available, and we have the 2 sentinal warriors. How many units are needed to start on the Kuroda?

I probably won't pick it back up again until afternoon or tonight. When to kick off the 1st war is my weakness, so any thoughts you have will be appreciated. :D

TedJackson

Nov 18, 2003, 12:43 PM

Good progress by everybody :goodjob: while I've been battling my way through my various SGs.

It looks as if we're almost ready to strike so good luck DaveShack on both your turns & the feeding :D

Edit: I've just had a look at the comparative scores chart in the first post and from the slopes it looks as if Civ roster B might already have the :hammer: down.

Ted

a space oddity

Nov 18, 2003, 01:19 PM

It could also mean they took the time to get a settler factory...

edit: The most difficult part in civ, when to start your wars, IMO. In this case it could be fairly quick, since we can seal off the choke and leisurely take out the green cities on 'our' land and the settlers = free workers. :) If we want to have a shot at destroying them in 1 war, we need to build up out forces a bit longer.

Shevek

Nov 18, 2003, 02:36 PM

It looks like we are done settling now. We are in quite good shape so far.

The Kuroda as first target gets my vote, too. Sanda and Sakai are just so much bait for us. :hammer:
If the Mori were not in the way I would vote for going north in our attack (all those lovely wool up there). As it stands conquering our way towards Kyoto seems to be the best course of action.

When to start war? As soon as possible IMHO.
Kuroda are 'weak' and we should exploit that.
We have 6 Kensai and 3 Kagesuke for offensive units. According DaveShack another 3 Kagesuke will join ranks within 3 turns. That force could net us some cities. :hammer:

barbslinger

Nov 18, 2003, 08:03 PM

Like prior posts I'd like to take out the 2 cities on our south shores. They can't have more than an Otomo and perhaps they have built a 3hp Otomo or spear. The cat, 4 Kensei's and Otomo cover should be enough to take care of that. Once we have the chokes we can go for either the NE group or head to Kyoto through Tanabi. I like the Northern cities. It has a nice looking core for possible FP, wool and will most likely be less defended. Conversely, Kyoto has the GL which would be nice, even though Education is around the corner. Also Kyoto is better FP. With war happening won't the AI go for the warring techs and leave education alone?
Either way I think we'll easily take the 2 coastal Kuroda towns and then be faced with which way to go. NorthEast into a core to deny iron, add wool, or to Kyoto. NE is closer travel from our core, most likely less defended - Kyoto is more travel, has GL and will break Kurodas back if we succeed, but probably heavily defended. Bringing Mori in with ROP, cash/ tech into the fray will help too and I like that idea as long as they don't grab too much of the Kurodan pie.
Also, if we get a leader do we rush Sun Zu when Feudalism comes in? We'll need all the free barracks for the conquest we are embarking on.

barbslinger

Nov 18, 2003, 11:46 PM

Nobunaga (Nobunaga Oda)[nObOOna´ga Oda´] Pronunciation Key, 1534–82, Japanese military commander. The son of a daimyo, Nobunaga greatly expanded his father's holdings, becoming master of three provinces near present-day Nagoya. The emperor secretly appealed to him for help, and Nobunaga, acting in the emperor's name, became (1568) dictator of central Japan. Though he restored the ousted shOgun (Nobunaga's ancestry made him ineligible for the title), the real power was his and, aided by his general Hideyoshi Toyotomi and his ally Ieyasu, he unified all Japan except the extreme north and west. He broke the temporal power of the great Buddhist sects by destroying their armies. He was one of the first Japanese generals to supply his foot-soldiers with muskets. The early Jesuits in Japan gained Nobunaga's respect and, thereby, his permission to preach. Under his rule, free trade was encouraged and an era of castle building began. He was murdered by one of his discontented generals before the unification of all Japan, a task that was completed by Hideyoshi and Ieyasu

DaveShack

Nov 19, 2003, 02:24 AM

First, the >>save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90BC.SAV)

290 BC inherited turn

Checking around and getting re-engaged with the game...

Haven't run a 4 turn settler factory before. Azuchi is in turn 1 of the cycle, with
1 food and 0 shields stored, so snapshot to ensure I can MM it back to the beginning
of the cycle the next time around. At 9spt and +5fpt looks like it's a matter of not
messing it up...

Otherwise looks OK, pressing enter.

IBT: Kuroda (green) settler pairs move onto grass squares.
Mori request an audience, offer is WM for WM. We are up communications with Shimazu.
Go ahead and swap maps.

270 BC, turn 1. 472g-17gpt, 4.5.1, Feudal Warlords in 18

Perry E-SE. Settler+escort continue SW.

Trade check:
Kuroda do not have horses.
Shimazu do not have horses and are down 4 techs
Chosogabe have 45g but our only tradable commodity is contact with Shimazu
Takeda have 25g and lack both horses and iron. If they were closer would make
them the target and try to wipe them out prior to either getting connected.
Tokugawa have 55g and two workers. We could get both workers, all the gold, and 4gt for contact.

Recap, can get up to 55g+4gpt + 2 workers for contact. Shimazu have a junk and appear
to be sending it around the W end of their island, so contact is inevitable. Hope this
doesn't turn out a bonehead play, but the workers won't be there forever...
Aside from its monopoly value, contact with Shimazu is quite worthless -- they are
down Shamanism, Currency, Republic, Construction and have only lux to trade for them.

Do Tokugawa trade, Contact with Shimazu for 55g+4gpt+2 workers.
Sell contact/Shimazu to Chosogabe for WM+45g+6gpt
Sell contact/Shimazu to Takeda for WM+20g+4gpt
Sell contact/Shimazu to Kuroda for 37g+WM
Sell contact/Mori to Shimazu for 23g+WM

Now have 629g-3gpt. Science to 70% -21gpt, Feudal Warlords in 13.

New slaves go toward Suzuka

IBT
Ise completes Kagesuke, starts another (4)
Forgot to check happienes, Suzuka riots, hire entertainer
Kita-ku completes warrior, starts Kagesuke (15)

250BC, turn 2, 631g-24gpt, Feudal Warlords in 12.

Move units to shadow Kuroda settler pairs
MM Azuchi to not produce the settler too early (it dropped from 3 turns to 1 on growth)

IBT
There must be a trick to avoiding happieness problems :( Ise hires entertainer
Koromo completes worker, starts Kagesuke (10)
Ogaki complets barracks, starts Kensai Oda (15)

230BC, turn 3, 607g-21gpt, Feudal Warlords in 11

Workers work, preposition troops, keep forces next to Kuroda settler pairs

IBT
Azuchi completes settler, starts another, MM back to 4 turns
Nagoya completes spear, starts another
Moriyama-ku completes barracks, starts Kensai Oda
Embichi hires entertainer
Chosogabe building Hanging Gardens

210BC, turn 4, 580g-31gpt, Feudal Warlords in 10

Settler, spear (Nagoya) head for hills W-NW of Oqaki. Want to give Naqoya room to grow.
Follow Kuroda settlers

trade check (their attitude-our military strength)
Kuroda cautious-strong, no trade route, have 27g, wool, lack horses
Mori annoyed-average, no trade route, have 23g, wool
Shimazu cautious-average, no trade route, have 5g, furs, ivory, lack horses and 3 techs
Chosogabe annoyed-average, have Monarchy, 96g, silks (no route)
Takeda polite-average, have 1g
Tokugawa polite-average, have 4g

IBT
Suzuka completes Kagesuke, starts another (8)
Ichinomiya hires entertainer
Kikone completes Jap Catapult, starts another
Embichi completes worker, starts another

190BC, turn 5, 549g-33gpt, Feudal Warlords in 9

Catapult to Winegaki
Follow Kuroda settlers
Found Shakasani on S coast between 2 lambs, start worker

IBT
Yokkachi completes Kagesuke, starts another
Kasugai completes barracks, starts Otomo Spearman
Komaki completes Kagesuke, starts another
Mori have a spear/settler and archer/worker on the border next to Kasugai

170BC, turn 6, 518g-33gpt, Feudal Warlords in 8

Continue to shadow Kuroda settlers/escorts
Move new Kagesuke toward Sakai
Wake kensai, warrior and move toward Sakai

Trade check, Kuroda still lack horses, Chosogabe have Monarchy, Tokugawa have worker.
Nothing worth pursuit.

IBT
Ise completes Kagesuke, starts another
Winegaki completes temple, starts Otomo Spearman
Moriyama-ku hires entertainer
Mori building hanging gardens
Kuroda building hanging gardens
Takeda building Sun Tsu's

150BC, turn 7, 484g-35gpt, Feudal Warlords in 5

Build Kwanaka on the coast W-NW of Oqaki, producing warrior (to upgrade later)
Move units into position to declare on Kuroda next turn

IBT
Azuchi completes settler, starts another, MM to 4 turns
Nagoya complets Otomo Spear, starts Kensai
TehJay completes barracks, starts Kensai
Takeda building Hanging Gardens

130BC, turn 8, 451g-37gpt, Feudal Warlords in 3

Kuroda moved 2 warriors and 1 archer out of Sanda.

Declare war with Kuroda

Vet Kagesuke defeats reg spear, settler captured
Sakai: Vet Kagesuke defeats reg spear, 2/4
Vet Kagesuke retreats from reg spear, 1/4

Sanda: Vet Kagesuke defeats reg warrior outside town, promotes
Vet Kagesuke defeats reg archer outside, promotes
vet Kagesuke retreats from reg spear, 1/4 (spear 2/3)
Vet Kagesuke dies attacking 2/3 spear

Not the best beginning to a war ever, but we'll see what happens

IBT
Movement...
Chosogabe request audience, offer TM swap, squeeze 1 gold out of them

110BC, turn 9, 416g-33gpt, Warlords in 2.
vet Otomo vs reg warrior/settler, dies redlining warrior
vet kagesuke defeats 1/3 warrior, 2/4 remains, settler captured
workers work

sanda: elite kagesuke defeats regular spear, Sanda destroyed.
elite kagesuke loses redlining a loose regular warrior
Injured Kagesuke go to heal
MM Azuki
Science to 60%, warlords in 2 @-24gpt

IBT
Mori passing another settler through our land
Hikone produces catapult, starts spear

90BC, turn 10, 392g-24gpt, warlords in 1
can't reduce slider

Vet Kensai Oda defeats reg Spear, promotes, our civ enters a Golden Age
Injured heal

We only need 1 settler for SE Kuroda city replacement, so switch Azuchi to Kensai
Now that GA is started, reduce slider to 50%, Warlords in 1, +4gpt
Perry has discovered a barb island

The RNG was not especially kind :(

Suggested next actions

A few Kensai are currently MP, probably ought to produce spears instead and release the Kensai for offensive duty. Can't just send them, have Mori settler pairs walking through.

Edit: sorry, no screenies the baby wants a bottle NOW :crazyeye:

mad-bax

Nov 19, 2003, 04:25 AM

Jimmydean is up.

Could someone post the score for the end of Daveshacks turn please? No rush, you have played more turns than the other teams.

Thanks.

Shevek

Nov 19, 2003, 06:20 AM

@ DaveShack - Good call to buy the workers for contact. I would have done exactly the same. Together with the captured workers/settler we should start to have a more decent worker count.

From the log I see that you have hired 3 clowns. Isn't it a bit early in the game for that? We have money so why not use the slider to up luxury? A entertainer stunts growth as no food is coming from him.

Shevek

Nov 19, 2003, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by denyd
It’s probably time to start talking about Great Leader usage. My normal order of preference in a military game is Leo’s (cheaper upgrades), Sun Tzu (barracks for all, skipped in an islands game), FP (in the middle of conquered territory), Army (when all else fails) and Heroic Epic (if we’ve had a victorious army), depending on what’s available.

My preference would rather go:
1. Forbidden palace
2. Sun Tzu
3. Army

I think we should either start to build FP now or very soon and move the palace with a leader into Kuroda territory.
Or hope for an early leader for the FP.
The disadvantage with this is the question of luck. We might finish our first war without any leaders at all and it is maybe not the best idea to rely too much on them.
Either way an early FP is essential IMHO.

Edit:
Barbslinger, thanks for the short history of our leader. I didn't know he was a contempory of Ieyasu and Hideyoshi.

TedJackson

Nov 19, 2003, 07:01 AM

I'd rather choose an Army for our first GL. A quick victory by the army will enable Heroic Epic which improves our chances of generating more leaders in the future.

Circumstances always alter cases so if there's an essential Wonder in the offing or we're in a position to rush the FP far enough away to make a real difference then obviously the choice is harder :)

Ted

barbslinger

Nov 19, 2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by mad-bax
Could someone post the score for the end of Daveshacks turn please? No rush, you have played more turns than the other teams.

Thanks.

Score is 519 @ 90BC

barbslinger

Nov 19, 2003, 07:13 AM

I agree that FP is tops in most cases. However, we will need to conquer/settle a nice spot 1st to put the palace in and our cash is OK right now. Lets grab some Kurodan land and see how leader fishing goes. I am also very keen on SunZsu's to have barracks in conquered cities to continue the bloodbath. Warlords is coming in next turn and it will be available.

My list would be 1 - SunZsu's, 2 - Army, 3 - FP

Any thoughts on whether to go for wool city or GL? Wool city should be easy to grab if we can get an ROP with Mori. He won't rape us will he? Even more reason to get alliance for 2 front attack on Kuroda to gas him early so we can press.:hammer:

TedJackson

Nov 19, 2003, 07:28 AM

I would also consider building the FP close to home then rushing a Palace in a conquered capital but I'm not sure we've got a good candidate city for this option (I can't look at the save until this evening).

On reflection, Sun Tzu is probably my number one choice for our current situation. Of course this is assuming we get a GL in time :D

Ted

a space oddity

Nov 19, 2003, 07:39 AM

Maybe Ise is an option, but it'll have to build an aqueduct. Should we start and FP build which we may switch when a leader is not granted by the RNG?

TedJackson

Nov 19, 2003, 07:59 AM

I kinda thought Ise was Settler/Worker. Or, have I misremembered?

Can someone post an F1 screenshot, sorted by production please?

Ted

a space oddity

Nov 19, 2003, 08:03 AM

Suzuka could have the settler/ worker role. It has wheat, but is not a candidate for FP, too much water in the circles.

Shevek

Nov 19, 2003, 02:46 PM

Picture of F1 screen coming up as requested :p

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90BC-F1.jpg

And since I am at it:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90BC.jpg

Edit: Spelling

Shevek

Nov 19, 2003, 02:58 PM

If we go for a close by FP than Ise would be a strong contender indeed. It brings in enough shields to build relatively quickly (13 turns) and is quite central.

Regarding the possibility of ROP rape by the Mori, I think we cannot rule that out. I have seen the AI doing that. (In a current game of mine the Germans signed ROP and than send a lonely cav into my territory and march right into an undefended city next turn.)

barbslinger

Nov 19, 2003, 03:02 PM

Next tech? I vote Engineering for bridges across all our rivers.

WAR! A Kensei/Kagesuke swarm should be in order. If we can keep everyone else off of us we should be able to gas him with our production. Getting to Monarchy would be nice too.

As for FP, I would like to wait until we can get over to Kuroda. We only get one FP and we should develop a good one for this conquest scenario. 2 double ring production cores should take the whole Japanese mainland, Chosogabe and Shimazu. Putting it in Ise would work though if we can Palace build in newly conquered territories. that hinges on GL's to build. Then develop culture to pop borders, move palace to the next conquer zone, repeat. Let's see how far we can gas Kuroda. If we can get NE wool ring that looks like a nice FP zone. Kyoto or near it would be optimal. If we can get Mori to take Nara(iron) and we get wool ring (iron) we can then press Kuroda with our Kensei's. He won't have anything but archers.

LordKestrel

Nov 19, 2003, 03:27 PM

I'll get it tonight.

LordKestrel

Nov 20, 2003, 02:42 AM

I really hate to do this, but I'm going to have to bow out of this game. My work has been consuming 15-18+ hours a day of my life, and I don't have time to do much of anything, let alone meet the commitment required of me for this game. Before too long, I'll be working less, but at the moment, I don't feel right trying to play after a typical day of being up for 20 hours on 4 hours of rest. I wish you the best of luck in this game, and I hope to be able to play again in the future with this group.

jd

mad-bax

Nov 20, 2003, 02:54 AM

barbslinger: you are UP

Thanks for letting us know jimmydean. :thumbsup:

Shevek

Nov 20, 2003, 06:30 AM

Sorry to see you go Jimmydean.
Good luck with your work commitments, though.

barbslinger

Nov 20, 2003, 08:11 AM

Will play tonight. If no one has any objections I'm going for Engineering next tech. We have so many rivers to cross if we want to bring troops to front lines. I'm hoping for a protracted war trying to net the bulk of Kuroda (not all in my 10 turns of course).
1st Sakai and resettle our south and then I'll seal off the 2 land bridges. After that I'm taking the 'pults and bulk of Kag/Kensei to move on the wool if I can get a ROP from Mori. Kyoto bound if I can't. Also, build orders will be primarily Kags/Kensei/pults with culture where needed. Might try to squeeze in a market too.

barbslinger

Nov 20, 2003, 04:54 PM

I wanted to let everyone know what has happened and I also had a question on the turns. It looks like we are out of whack. Shouldn't we be at a different time between hand offs? I'll be willing to take only 9 to get us closer to where we're supposed to be. I don't know what the date should be but I notice in other SG's it is usally on 50's. Also, this discrepancy is possibly skewing the scoring.
What is the consensus on going to Monarchy?

Anyway-

90 BC inherited turn

Goals - We’re at war! Take Sakai and settle the razed Kurodan city. Take war to Kuroda on their turf. Solidify military and seal landbridges. Perhaps a marketplace to help offset GA income when it falls off. GA will end at the end of Teds set of turns.

No movement anywhere, so here we go

IBT: Mori has 2 sets of settler pairs on our turf. Kuroda has a settler pair heading towards Winegaki? Has he heard were at war? Those land bridges are shutting down. One-way only Mori.

Azuchi – Kensei > Kensei
Ise – Kag > Aquaduct
Handa – Kag > Kag
Winegaki expands

Fuedal comes in! > Engineering (Bridges) at 1 scientist. I want cash to upgrade Otomo to Pikes (1.3.1)

70 BC, turn 1.

I take Frank to go for Sakai, he wins 3-0 and,

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-50BC-2.jpg

Yes! Sakai to worker in 10. Slave toward Winegaki to road. Nobuo to Azuchi for SZ. Change Azuchi to worker to get one out before Nobuo gets there.

Raised Luzury to 20% so I could fire some clowns.
Moryama-ku - taxman. Switch to temple in 11 so taxman can fire himself.
Ichnomiya - taxman Switch to temple in 8 so we can fire taxman and get some culture up there. We have Toku on both sides of us. I cash rush soon 60g to go back to pults.
Everywhere else they are just generally more happy which translates to scoring.

I buy an embassy in Mori for 56g
Hiroshima – 40% science. 1 wine, 1 ivory, 2 wool. 1 Horse and 1 Iron hooked up. Barracks, Granary, Temple, Lib, Colloseum building Aquaduct. 3 Otomos at the watch. 14 fpt, 8 spt . ROP is acceptable and when I added some cash to sweeten the deal for us he gave us 27g. No interest in an alliance vs. Kuroda. Fuedalism will change his tune but that seems high. I ask for Monarchy back and he needs 24gpt to make it happen. Cautious to polite.

I capitalized the k in komaki. It’s been bothering me.

Warrior that was with Frank back to Moriyama barracks for upgrade. Kags in Moriyama (changing name to Morayama-ku so I can call it Mora and not Mori) to the front.
Komaki to pike to get Kensei off guard duty.
Other military towards front.
Ellie and friend road cow in Ichomiya.
Workers begin road to trade with Toku.
Upgrade Winegaki, Suzuka and Kasugai spears to Pike (Agashiru 1.3.0/1) 20g@
Notice a Kuroda warrior fortified in mountains. Have to take him out soon.
Winegaki Kag vs. settle pair from wine hill. Takes off 1 hp and retreats back to Winegaki. Damn, WEED! I had a cat there.
Perry circles barb island.

MM Kasugai to use undeveloped hill for shields. Need to get a mine over there.

227g +85, Bridges in 50

Takada, Toku, Choso have Mono up on us.

IBT
Kurodan warrior moves towards Sakai. Mori pairs head towards Toku.

Azuchi – Worker > Sun Zhu
Nagoya- Kensai – Kensai
Koromo – Kag > Kag
Suzuka – Kag > Cat
Yokkachi – Kag > Kag
Kika-ku – Kag > Kensai
Ichinomiya – Temple > Agashiru
Komaki – Agashiru > Kensai
Kwanaka – Warrior > Warrior

Toku start SZ and HG
Choso start SZ.
I F7 and see Choso, Takada Kuroda and Mori also are on HG.

50BC, turn 2,

Nobuo hightails it to Azuchi. SZ due next turn.
Upgrade Kika-Ku to Agashiru. Move workers towards Kika-ku lake to irrigate. Kag to the front.
Thor towards barracks for Kensai upgrade.
Kags move towards lone Kurodan warrior.
Kwanaka moving towards barracks and front for upgrade.
New Azuchi worker heads over to hook up dyes to trade.
Perry continues around barb island and bumps into Mori junk.
Switched Suzuka over to Agashiru spear to get a blockade on land bridge.
Upgraded Ogaki spear.
Upgrade Yokkachi spear. Changed Kag to Agahiru. Thinking Toku may get ideas and want to solidify western front. Send new Kag to front.
Moved others towards northern landbridge front. Those rivers are killing our travel.

We are now STRONG to all but Toku.
Mori has same thoughts on alliance. I really feel he is going to get feudalism from one of his buddies soon and I am having a hard time deciding on whether we should take monarchy from him for 24gpt.… I think Monarchy price will drop over time and I’m in no mood to change government. Alliance + 14g(all) for Feudal.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-50BC-1.jpg

denyd

Nov 20, 2003, 05:28 PM

Barbslinger: Nice start, you might think about squeezing in a settler S of Winegaki and NE of Sakai, another city means a couple more free units. Good choice on SZ for the first GL. We'll need veteran military for a while.

JimmyDean: Sorry to see you go, but I understand about RL needs. Hope to see you again soon. Check back later to see how we did.

I think we should continue with the war until the Kuroda are gone. I don't see them being able offer anything to prevent us from wanting to destroy them. If we're down to the northern cities and the Mori object to our troops passing through, it might be time to add those two cites to our collection, so be sure to leave a couple of defensive units on our eastern border.

I'd like to save the western tribes for later. The eastern tribes seem weaker and their lands should provide a base to take on the 800lb gorilla.

Just a note: Someday we'll need to start a naval invasion if we want to complete our mission. With that in mind it's probably time for one city to build a couple more junks, 3-4 should be enough to start with. Ocean exploration is probably a good task for TJ, since he's got no prior map knowledge (just to keep it on the up & up).

I'd rank on GL order to be Army, Leo's (if we have invention) and FP as the next in line.

Until next time :hammer:

barbslinger

Nov 20, 2003, 07:58 PM

I looked over my prior report and noticed I didn't mention in report the settler pair in route to the ruins. They are sitting 1 E of Sakai. I was thinking of putting a town between Nagoya and Tehjay too. It will produce nicely and we can abandon later to let those two grow.

Any thoughts on both government change and getting turns back in line?

mad-bax

Nov 21, 2003, 01:58 AM

I'll get back to you on getting the turns back in line. For the moment just carry on as you are. I can adjust the graphs so that they show the correct information, it's not a problem.

I'll work on it over the weekend.

TedJackson

Nov 21, 2003, 02:53 AM

I would hope that we don't need to change Governments. We should be able to manage WW in Republic and the commercial benefits are too good to change on a whim.

So unless there's something I'm missing here, Monarchy is a useless tech for us.

Ted

barbslinger

Nov 21, 2003, 07:05 AM

Cont’d
IBT – Kuroda moves a new archer/settler pair near Winegaki. I guess they haven’t heard about the war either. Now there are 2 pairs. We have sufficient defense. Mori still have 2 pairs hanging around.
Azuchi - SUN TZU’s > Kensai

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-50BC-SZ.jpg

Shakasani riots. Dammit I didn’t do an F1 before leaving to work earlier.
Palace expansion – We now have a real front door.
Everyone is building HG

30BC –turn 3

Shakasani to a tax man.
Workers that completed a road out of Komaki are sent back to irrigate over a mine. We have 3 mines in city radius and they are blocking future growth.
Now for the lost Kurodan warrior ¾ still hanging out in our land. Kag 4hp from mountain retreats doing no damage. Kag 4hp from hill wins 3-0.
Ichonomiya is mining a cow for now. I really want to get workers back toward cow but since city is not totally corrupt I’d like to do something. We’ll irrigate later when city has a chance to max population. Is this weed?
Perry unfogs the rest of the perimeter of barb island.
Winegaki duel settle pair problem – Bomb Otomo –1hp. 4hp Kag wins 3-1 and ends up in front of archer/settler pair. Cover with Agashiru and move Kag there also.
Other military moved to front. Rivers are killing or movement. We have 2 Kags –2 Kensai nearing Kasugai and 3 Kags – 2 Kensai nearing Winegaki. We have a Kag healing in Kasugai and 2 Kags in/near Winegaki. 12 units for a 2 front war? I’ll wait for reinforcements in Winegaki near his core. Will send Kag expeditions to see whats up in our soon to be wool territory.
Change Azuchi to worker due next turn with a pop grow) I counted tiles with no improvements that we are currently working and there are 15!! We are at war but our infrastructure will pay long dividends. Need more workers.

Diplo shows Toku with no cash. What did he spend that on? All else the same.
F1 OK.

IBT – Archer pair move next to Winegaki. He hasn’t heard about the war. A new Otomo pair pop from Tanabe! Slaves coming to join our glorious empire I guess. Mori settler pair surface from Toku land heading back to us. 2 other pairs look disoriented. 1 pair heading south to go for the ruins I already have in the bag. I watch 20 sec of horses running around a volcano near Perry the junk.

Azuchi Worker > Kensai
Hikone Agashiru > Kensai
Ogaki Kensai > Cat

10BC turn 4

Ian gets an upgrade to Kensai. So proud of those early fella’s. Edgar gets one too.
Road to Toku/Takeda done, will check trades later.
Thor upgrades. Perry starts home.

Winegaki – Cat misses archer. 5hp Kag moves in and GL. ARMY TIME! I move 4 workers to road other wine hill. I am using that hill to group force for Tanabe strike. They’re safe. Upgrade warrior in Ogaki.
Diplo - Takada is hooked up and has wine. Toku wine for 7 gpt, 16g and WM. +101gpt now. He would give Mono for wine, 20gpt and 265g but I’m not much of a hanging garden fan. After deal I give him a polite nudge to get the hell out of our turf with his settler pair near Yokkachi. He said sorry. Wool is available from Mori but I worry about trade rout and rep. How do we have a route even open to his capital? Question? To break a trade rout would Kuroda have to block both coast and sea on both N and S of continent? Or is it just coast? I really don’t want to kill our rep in my 1st SG so I steer clear of the possibility. We don’t need wool though because we will soon have some. Either way I change Tehjay to harbor in 4. We’ll need a load of transports someday for other continent.

Embassy with Takada(50g). Edo has 1 horse. No iron though there are 2 in his land. 1 right next door to a city?! Wine, fur, 9spt, 14fpt granary, temple, lib. Aquaduct in 7. 70% science, 3 spears. Using a clown instead of taxman. AI weed.

Notes – Island south of us has a Mori – Kuroda city pair on it. Resources there I think. A junk out of our southern cities should get over there soon.

IBT – Kurodan pair turn tail back to Tanabe.
Nagoya – Kensai > Agashiru
Yokkachi – Agashiru > Agashiru. More Western defense.
Komaki – Kensai > Kensai

10AD – turn 5
Kika-ku to temple in 2 for cultural pressure on Toku Shizuoka
Settler pair on ruins to found next turn
Moving forces to wool and assembling army. 2 kags doing recon at back of Mori city see zero Kurodans. Hikone to Agashiru to free up a Kensai. Shuffled Agashiru N to protect Ichinomiya and Koromo.
Takada still hanging out near Yokkachi. I’ll let him slide this turn. We have 2 Agashirus there. I hurry aquaduct in ISE to get it back into military. Hurry harbor for 44g.

IBT – Mori archer dies to a Kurodan in Mori city radius. Hope he takes city. Kurodan spear settle pull in next to my stack. Takada settler pair leaves.
Azuchi Agashiru > Kag
Ise – Aquaduct > Worker. No riots.
Suzuka – Agashiru > Cat
Ichinomiya expands. Harbor soon?
Tehjay – Harbor > Kensai
Shakasani – Worker > Temple in 30. Veto if you gotta. Have to expand it soon or Toku will. Road hooking it up soon.
Kwanaka – Warrior > Warrior upgrading soon

30 AD – turn 6
Dyes hooked up. Will trade.
Toyotomi founded on ruins. Name in honor of Oda Nuobunga’s general.
Winegaki – Cat misses. 5hp Kag on hill loses 1-5 to 3hp Otomo on plains. Sheesh! I was envisioning another leader. 4hp Kag wins 2-1. Kag retreats with workers.
Army built in Kasugai. Forward march. Looking for target to start heroic epic.
Rush Kasugai and Winegaki Agashiru spears. 64 and 44g.
Kurodan samurai is a Minamoto (4.2.1) Looks tough.

Diplo – Takada has engineering for 96gpt and all gold and dyes. Trade dyes for 6gpt, 40g and WM. Looked at his lands and he is still expanding with more room left!

IBT – Kurodan summurai attacked Mori Tottori and won hands down. Kuroda called and asked about something called peace. I said “piece of your lands” and hung up on him.

Ise – Worker > Kensai
Koromo – Kag > Kag
Winegaki – Agashiru > Cat
Handa – Agashiru > Kensai
Kika – Temple > Kensai
Kasugai – Agashiru > Cat
Ogaki – Cat > Kensai

50AD –turn 7

Moved troops towards wool city. Otomo 3hp there.
While moving workers to continue road to connect Shakasani I noticed one of our warriors near Toku holdings doing something in a crouched position on a mountain. I startled him with a click and he jumped up. It was David. I told him to go home and put a Kensai robe on himself. Those guys from BC. Can’t take ‘em anywhere.

Changed Suzuka to Agashiru.

Diplo – Engineering is now with everyone including Kuroda. Those guys have great negotiating skills. Shimazu not invited. I really want to get across these rivers quicker. Best deal is Chosogabe when we throw in wines. Wines, 21gpt, 140g and WM for bridges. To lowly Shimazu, I know, look who’s talking, Fuedalism for Furs and WM. We’re getting ready to riot in a few places and growth is getting hard to manage. Fix cities now that we have fur.

IBT–

Reg Minemoto shows up near wool city. Other Minemoto did not take Mori city. We’ll show him how soon enough.
Nagoya – Agashiru > Kensai
Yokkachi – Agashiru > Kag
Hikone – Agashiru > Kag
Kwanaka – Warrior > Warrior

70AD – turn 8
4hp Kag beats the Samurai 3-3.
Move other forces closer.

Diplo – The other civs showed up. Han already wants to know us. He has Mono and Monarchy on us. Contact with the rest for world map. He’s cautious as he should be.
Went through all of them.
Gogory Currency for all his cash 131. It’s Hiawatha on the leader head.
Baekje – Construction for world map. He has no cash.
Han is in the lead with 16 cities. Not much else to do. Han is taking over as I suspected.

The new land lands

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-70AD-1.jpg

IBT –
That samurai near Tottori still can’t do the job and is down to 1 hp. Another Sam showed up at wool town.
Azuchi – Kag > Worker.

90AD
Tanabe - Didn’t get stats but lost a Kag and then got….. the city!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90AD-1.jpg

We have 2 Agashirus, 2 Kensai’s a Kag and a pult near by. Didn’t put them all in.

Nagahama (Wool town) – Lost a Kag to an Otomo. One Kag retreated and another Kag beat an Otomo. We have a 4/4, ¾, ¼, ¼ Kags an Agashiru. 2 Kensais are 2 turns from taking the city.

Notes – We have a swarm of military coming in to get Wakayama next (Iron). Don’t let up. Golden age will be ending near the end of the next set of turns so watch that. Good luck Ted!

barbslinger

Nov 21, 2003, 07:12 AM

Wish I could figure out how to get rid of this speckling when I resize in paint.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90AD-2.jpg

a space oddity

Nov 21, 2003, 07:21 AM

Well done Barbslinger, looks like good progress. :thumbsup:

Just save it as JPG first and then resize.

TedJackson

Nov 21, 2003, 07:31 AM

The mighty Oda war-engine gathers speed :goodjob:

Any chance of a save? :)

Ted

barbslinger

Nov 21, 2003, 09:49 AM

They are gassed! Take it all! Get the Library! :hammer: the Mighty Slinger said as he finally crawled into bed.

PS. Ted I didn't F1 before saving.

a space oddity

Nov 21, 2003, 10:18 AM

I think he means a link to the save file, can't play without it... ;)

barbslinger

Nov 21, 2003, 10:38 AM

Sorry all

Score - 606 7th placeThe SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-90AD.zip)

TedJackson

Nov 21, 2003, 10:50 AM

Got it

Play tomorrow

Ted

Shevek

Nov 21, 2003, 11:52 AM

Looks good Barbslinger. And wow, you had such a lucky hand hand with the leaders. 2 in 10 turns and just at the beginning of our war. :yeah: It certainly will not hurt us. :lol:

As to a switch to Monarchy, I do not think that necessary. Republic should work fine for quite a while. And we can always make some peace for a while to calm down recalcitrant population.

denyd

Nov 21, 2003, 05:58 PM

First off, nice job of :hammer: and :goodjob: on getting and using the leaders to Barbslinger. :D

I agree with Shevak on the governmenty issue. As long as we are winning cities and not losing troops, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I'm thinking we should be taking the following path to victory:

1. Conquer all nations on our island to the east
2. With the Takeda's help, takeover Tokugawa
3. Thank Takeda by removing him
4. Assimilate the nearby islands
5. Launch an invasion onto northern Korea island
6. Work our way south through the KBG tribes saving the Han for last.

We'll probably be able to do # 1 with our current forces
It will probably take knights & pults for #2 & 3
4-6 boats for #4
8-10 caravels/galleons for #5
We'll need at least cavalry / cannons for # 6

Good luck Ted with the :hammer: time

barbslinger

Nov 21, 2003, 07:11 PM

Thank you for the kind comments. :) It was very exciting playing last night and woke the wife up twice yelling YESSSS!

I don't see peace as an option with Kuroda until we get Kyoto and the Great Library. We are going to be falling behind in techs and will NEED it. Kuroda is out of any steam and we should roll them easily if we're patient and keep troops together during assaults. They are sending single Samurias as they are able to produce them and we can handle that. I'm worried that Mori will take more of them than us. They are next on the list. I was bad in being anxious to conquer and should not have attacked the wool town on my last turn. I should have waited for the other Kensais. My apologies to the team. The wool continent looks perfect for an FP site and military production when we get a tighter build there. With the new lands building troops we'll need infrastructure in our core for troop support cash and happiness when our cities start growing 7+ (scoring points!). We can then jump the Palace into Toku lands and do the same thing there. Question: When we have all the infrastructure in core and move the palace, how bad is corruption? 20,40,60%?
My .02 yen on a plan:

1. Finish Kuroda top continent, hope for Leader for FP, and redevelop that area for troop building and cash. We need cash to support troops.

2. Perhaps declare phony on Takada with Toku help. Need those two going at it.

3. Finish Kuroda and get GL for tech. Hope for leader and Leos for upgrades.

3. Move on Mori w/ Shimazu, Chosogabe help. Then declare on Shimazu and get Choso help. Meanwhile, Go for Toku w/Takeda help. Would fortresses in mountains help?

4. Somehow keep The Han from taking over island before we get there.

Of course it goes without saying on the Epic. Good luck all. I hope to be looking at a war in our West when I get back in.

Also, please let me know any problems I am doing. I'm still new at this (3 months). Though I play a lot I know I am flawed at MM'ing to maximize shields. I finally check F1 each turn, except personal games on occasion.

mad-bax

Nov 22, 2003, 03:24 AM

Currently at the end of barbslingers round you had played 132 turns. IF you want to get back to "decimal" turn rotations I suggest the next two players each take 9 turns.

I can adjust the graph so it is accurate so I leave it up to you.

barbslinger

Nov 22, 2003, 04:43 AM

I wold be willing to only play nine my next time up. Whatever the group wants is good by me.

This is a heck of a lot of fun though.

"Oda war machine". I was chuckling all day.

TedJackson

Nov 22, 2003, 04:43 PM

I've just finished my eigth turn and have (just) captured Kyoto.

I'll take a turn in the morning to tidy up then post.

Ted

barbslinger

Nov 22, 2003, 06:41 PM

Nice work Ted! :goodjob:
Any word on the wool city or iron city Watamaya? Thats great news. Can't wait to see the save and/or screenshot.

mad-bax

Nov 22, 2003, 07:05 PM

I need your Firaxis score from what should have been the 50AD save please. Thanks. It's late I'll amend the rosters etc. in the morning.

DaveShack

Nov 22, 2003, 11:04 PM

@mad-bax The score for 90AD is shown above as 606, and 90BC is shown as 519. The adjusted score for 50AD assuming linear progression (shouldn't be far off) is 580.

TedJackson

Nov 23, 2003, 02:22 AM

Pre-flight checks...
Ichinomiya about to riot - hire taxman
Azuchi switches to Kensai
Tanabe switches to Temple
308gp (+95gpt)
Sell WM to Mori for WM + 17gp
Buy WM + Ivory from Shimazu for WM, 31gp + 3gpt
Sell WM to Chosogabe for WM + 39gp
Sell WM to Goguryeo for WM + 20gp
Sell WM to Tokugawa for WM, 27gp + 1gpt
380gp (+93gpt)
Monotheism still too expensive
Ichinomiya & Morayama-ku fire their taxmen

Press button
Takeda wants to exchange WM - I give him our TM for his WM :)
Kensai kills attacking Samurai (2SE Nagahama)
Kagesuke kills attacking Samurai (2SE Nagahama)
Horse retreats from something (SW Nagahama)
Ise Kensai - Forbidden Palace
Suzuka Agashuri - Kagesuke
Komaki Kensai - Kagesuke
Kwanaka Warrior - Cat
Matsue (Mori) completes Hanging Gardens

1 - 110AD
Vet Kagesuke kills Samurai (E Nagahama) & promotes
Withdraw our forces from Nagahama (apart from the retreated Kagesuke) to 2SE Nagahama where they will wait for reinforcements next turn
Upgrade Warrior to Kensai (Ogaki)
Upgrade Warrior to Kensai (Kwanaka)
Send reinfrocements to Nagahama & Tanabe
Set Tanabe to starve & hire taxmen
Lux 20%
Fire Scientist in Suzuka rehire him in Ichinomiya
Hawk WM
Entertainment is costing 40gpt so I look for a luxury deal
Buy Silks from Chosogabe for 16gpt
Lux 10% (20gpt)
I could buy Wool from Mori for 16gpt but hopefully Nagahama will give us wool in 3 turns

Our red-lined Kagesuke dies
Azuchi Kensai - Market
Nagoya Kensai - Kagesuke
Yokkachi Kagesuke - Kensai
Sakai Worker - Worker
Hikone Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Resistance in Tanabe ends

2 - 130AD
Troops manouevre for assault on Nagahama
Troops advance to Tanabe in preparation for assault on Kyoto
Hawk WM

IBT
Koromo Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Handa Kensai - Cat
Moroyama-ku Temple - Worker
Kita-ku Kensai - Kagesuke
Ogaki Kensai - Cat
TehJay Kensai - Cat

3 - 150AD
Vet Kagesuki retreats from Samurai
Reg Kensai kills Samurai & promotes
Army arrives SE of Nagahama
3 Kagesuke, 1 Agashiru & 1 Kensai move to E Tanabe (pillage road to Kyoto next turn) with road gang
Tanabe hurries Temple for 108gp
Hawk WM

IBT
Vet Agashiru killed by Samurai (E Tanabe) but red-lined
Suzuka Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Tanabe Temple - Agashiru

4 - 170AD
Vet Kagesuke kills 1/4 Samurai (ENE Tanabe)
Kensai Army kills vet Otomo (Nagahama)
Nagahama falls (1gp & 4 Slaves)
Wasn't expecting such an easy victory. Garrison troops are 1 move behind :)
Hawk WM
Move the Scientist to Suzuka

IBT
3 Kurodan Samurai arrive near Tanabe
Get the Heroic Epic message :)
Nagoya Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Winegaki Cat - Kensai
Yokkachi Kensai - Kagesuke
Komaki Kagesuke - Agashiru
Hikone Kagesuke - Agashiru
Kwanaka Cat - Agashiru
Nagahama riots (of course)
Takeda start Leonardo's (Invention)

5 - 190AD
Azuchi switches to Heroic Epic
Vet Kensai kills Samurai
Vet Kensai kills Samurai & promotes
Advance Party arrives on hill West of Kyoto
Vet Kensai kills Samurai
Garrison arrives Nagahama
Advance Party moves toward Wakayama (pillage Iron next turn)
Tanabe hurries Agashiru for 116gp
Hawk WM

IBT
Kagesuke retreats from Elite Samurai after inflicting 3hp
Tanabe Agashiru - Agashiru
Resistance in Nagahama ends
Handa Cat - Cat
Ogaki Cat - Cat
Han start Sistine (Theology)
Chosogabe start Leonardo's (Invention)

6 - 210AD
Assault on Kyoto:
Vet Kensai kills reg Agashiru
Vet Kagesuke retreats from reg Agashiru
Vet Kagesuke retreats from reg Agashiru inflicting 1hp
Vet Kagesuke retreats from vet Otomo inflicting 2hp
Vet Kagesuke dies red-lining 2/3 Agashiru
Vet Kagesuke kills 2/5 Samurai
Nagahama hurries Temple for 116gp
Winegaki switches to Agashuri and hurries for 108gp
Hawk WM

IBT
Suzuka Kagesuke - Agashiru
Winegaki Agashiru - Kagesuke
Tanabe flips with a large Garrison
Nagahama Temple - Lib
Tehjay Cat - Kagesuke
Takeda start Sistine

7 - 230AD
Vet Kensai recaptures Tanabe & promotes
Cats destroy Temple at Wakayama
Vet Kensai kills reg Otomo (Wakayama)
Vet Kensai dies (Wakayama)
Vet Kensai kills 2/3 Otomo and promotes
Wakayama is ours (5 Slaves)
Slight mouse accident sends our Agashiru to NE Wakayama
Main force arrives W of Kyoto
Army moves to SW Wakayama
Hawk WM

IBT
Nagoya Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Koromo Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Yokkachi Kagesuke - Kagesuke
Morayama-ku Worker - Agashiru
Kita-ku Kagesuke - Cat
Kasugai Cat - Cat
Hikone Agashiru - Agashiru
Han start Leonardo's (Invention)

8 - 250AD
Vet Kensai dies inflicting 2hp on vet Agashiru (Kyoto)
Vet Kensai kills vet Agashiru (Kyoto)
Vet Kensai kills vet Otomo & promotes (Kyoto)
Thor (vet Kensai) kills 2/4 Agashiru & promotes
Kyoto is ours (with Great Libray & 1 Slave)
Army advances on Kobe (new Capital)
Hawk WM

IBT
We learn Monarchy, Monotheism, Son Buddhism & Samurai Code :)
Research Gunpowder
Resistance in Kyoto ends
Resistance in Wakayama ends
Handa Cat - Agashiru
Komaki Agashiru - Samurai (4.4.2, 70 shields)
Ogaki Cat - Cat
Tokugawa start Sistine (Theology)

9 - 260AD
Kyoto hurries Temple for 116gp
Wakayama hurries Temple for 112gp
Kyoto garrison increased
Army advances toward Kobe

New Territories
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24-260AD.jpg

Firaxis Score: 706

Notes
We need to take Kobe to have a native route to the Wool at Nagahama & Wakayama.
If we take Otsu as well then Kuroda are left with only Himeji (South of Morayama-ku).
Samurai are now available.
We need to choose our next enemy - Tokugawa would seem favourite but we still have 11 turns left on a deal.
No GL as there weren't really any elites to fight with. If we get one soon then I think an Army of Samurai would be fun.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-AD260.zip)

Ted

TedJackson

Nov 23, 2003, 02:32 AM

Here's a closer look at the situation around Kobe
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG24P-Kobe.jpg

Ted

a space oddity

Nov 23, 2003, 02:43 AM

Well done, Ted. :goodjob:
Looking as tidy as ever. :) Good value from the GL, too.

Shevek

Nov 23, 2003, 08:00 AM

Got it. Have no time right now to look at the save but will play later today.
I will take 9 turns as well and after that we should be on track again.

barbslinger

Nov 23, 2003, 08:54 AM

Fantastic work Ted! The Library is ours, fingers crossed on no flip. Looks like a second core coming soon! Hoping for a leader to take a FP or Palace to Wakayama.
My votes go to:
1 Finishing off Kuroda and then taking it to Mori with Choso, Shimazu help.
2 Second core in new lands. There is room for a tighter build there. NW and NE of Wakayama.
3 Starting up against Takada with Toku help. (Toku buffer) Need those two fighting.
3 Keep eye on Han progress on other island. If he gets too far ahead of his group we may have to give generous deals to Gogureo, Baekje, Korea to help them to keep Han from running island over.

The war-machine marches on. On the native wool route Ted spoke of. When we do get it online and if/when we go after Mori we need to take out Yonago 1st to secure a better route and absolutely post some boys up near Kobe to guard the roads until we take it. We will most likely trade some wool when we get it online and if Mori stops /pillages the road we're screwed.

Shevek

Nov 23, 2003, 01:10 PM

Sorry guys, I will not manage to play tonight. RL interfering :sad:.
But tomorrow night is a definite (unless, of course, the proverbial bus runs over me :lol: ).
I will have a look at the forum before playing, so any opinions, tips and so on are wellcome.

Until later

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 03:09 AM

I agree with barbslinger that we need some settlers to fill up the newly conquered lands.

We are only average in power vs the Mori and strong vs Toku! I know that our troops are located east now but the Toku lands are very fertile, much more so than the Mori lands. It also has a better shape, it fits 2 complete circles and would be ideal for our new core IMHO. Another reason to take them on now is to prevent them from getting too strong.

edit: Thinking about it some more, made me cosider the long border we share with the Toku as opposed to the narrow one with the Mori. The Mori will automatically have concentrated attacks which inevitably will make progress slow and the gains are relatively small (no new luxes, no terrific lands). The long border with the Toku OTOH is difficult for us to defend, but equally so for them. They also have no new luxes but as I said earlier they do have great lands. The only difficulty I see at the moment is logistics, we should only declare when all the troops are in place for a blitz. The only reason the Toku are weak is because they haven't fought a war yet. We should not give them time to build up their forces.

Shevek

Nov 24, 2003, 06:57 AM

I have nosed around the save a bit before going to work and it does look quite good for us.

My objective will be:
1. Capture Kobe and Otsu
2. Produce settlers to fill in NE peninsula
3. Get some more workers out to road up our new lands and get wool online ASAP

Economy wise we do not look bad and we have military production running in all our old cities with exception of Azuchi (Heroic Epic due in 3) and Ise (FP due in 5).
The first samurai will roll off the production line in 6 turns. We also have money and therefore can upgrade some Kagesuke to samurai (for 80gp per pop)

As to our next target there are good reasons for either Mori or Toku.

Mori:
PRO
- they have cities in 'our' territory that can become a thorn in our side and a danger (esp. if they sneak attacked us)
- they are the strongest of the AI in our corner and should be cut down to size early
- taking out the Mori will give us an easy to defend 'hinterland', any attack in our back would have to rely on landing with boats
- less defence of captured cities needed during war with them due to long, narrow shape of peninsula
CON
- as strong as us and that effort may slow us down too much
- as Space pointed out their land is not as nice as Toku's

Toku:
PRO
- weak compared to us
- they have good lands
- with their share of land they have the potential to become really strong
- the middle of their land would be very nice for relocating the palace to
CON
- very long front line
- our troops are in the east currently
- more defencive units needed to defend captured cities

Overall I think we should to go after Mori first.

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 07:04 AM

:lol: I agree with all your PROs and CONs and come to the opposite conclusion... the main reason being the palace jump. It is effective only when done on time, the earlier the better.

I would like to hear what the others think, though.
And in the end it's your turn Shevek, so you are one to make the final choice.

Shevek

Nov 24, 2003, 12:35 PM

Well, I certainly will not attack Toku on my watch as I am playing 9 turns and we have a 11 turn deal going with them.
I will try to not make rash decisions. ;)

Shevek

Nov 24, 2003, 12:38 PM

Maybe a sensible compromise could be to get the Mori cities in our territory and then to sue for peace ASAP. After that concentrate on Toku.

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 01:01 PM

:o Missed the deal we have with them, I am absolutely in favor of keeping deals. I like the compromise. :thumbsup:

edit: fixed the smiley, space much like pretty pictures :)

barbslinger

Nov 24, 2003, 01:11 PM

How about phony Takada war with a Toku alliance while we get the Mori lands we want. 20 turns of being his buddy and his troops move to Takada-Toku lines. Then his backside (our border) will be less defended when 20 turns are up and we can switch-a-roo, get peace/alliance with Takada - war with Toku. He'll be exposed and have it coming on two fronts.
In the meantime, we improve Wakayama/Kobe core (leader for a palace jump would be great), to get it able to sustain military production, Courts, markets. By the time we're done clearing our backyard rubbish, the Mori, it would be time to head to Toku.
At either rate, alliances to get Choso, Shimazu involved would be nice.

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 01:33 PM

The downside to a phony war and getting Toku to fight it, is that he will build his forces and be strong when we start our attack. But we can't fight opn two fronts, so we'll just have to hope Takeda and the Toku are equal in strength enough not to give either one the advantage.

denyd

Nov 24, 2003, 02:40 PM

I just got a chance to look over the map (CP Rings, no game at work) and here's my 2 cents.

Short term goals:

1. Take Kobe & Orsu, that should finish off the Kuroda (no more flip chances!!).
2. Drop a couple of cities in the gaps around Wakayama.
3. Setup troops for assault on Yonaga, Tottori, Gifu & Niimi (have settlers ready to replace after razing) . If done quickly, we might be able to snatch this territory and get peace before the Mori can respond.
4. During these offensives try to use the Elites on easy targets to troll for a GL to expedite our Palace move.
5. Get friendly with the Takeda for future MA.
6. Find the other tribes to improve trade opportunities.
7. Build up military for future Tokugawa campaign

Since I can't get a good look at our current order of battle, I'm not sure where our emphasis should be. Probably we'll need more Samurai, Jap Catapults and Pike/Musket units, plus a few settlers to fill in for the razed cities.

Shevek should be able to handle #1 and get me setup for #2. I'll plant those cities and get some more military out there so Space can :hammer: the Mori (seems like I'm the city planter / military builder on this team) :)

On a scheduling note: I might not be able to pick it up tomorrow (dental surgery). If I get a chance to play tonight, then no problems or if I'm feeling fine, I'll play on tomorrow. It might be until Wednesday night if I'm not in playing condition. :help:

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 03:01 PM

If I'm not mistaken we've already achieved 6. That's one of the reasons we've gotten so much out of the GL.

Good luck at the dentist tomorrow Denyd. To cheer you up here's a :sheep: and a :fish: :)

Shevek

Nov 24, 2003, 04:14 PM

First of all:
The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-350_AD.SAV)

And here is what happened:
Pre-flight checks
all :thumbsup:

ITB
Kyoto temple-> worker
Wakayama temple -> worker
Suzuka agashiru -> samurai
Ichinomiya agashiru -> settler
Kwanaka agashiru -> kensai
Toku is building Leo's (for us? :lol: )

1. 270 AD
switch winegaki from samurai to settler
troops move towards Kyoto
switch Nagahama to worker
upgrade 2 kagesuke to samurai

ITB
Mori moves troops towards Kobe as well, I spot 8 kensai and 2 samurai
Kita-ku pult -> samurai
Hikone agashiru -> market
Chosogabe build Sistine's

2. 280 AD
rush workers at Kyoto and Wakayama for 36gp each
bombard Kyoto but cats just fail, troops now in position for attack next turn

ITB
Mori and Kuroda sign peace uhoo
GA ends
Azuchi riots :blush:
Kyoto worker -> agashiru (down to 1 pop)
Wakayama -> worker
Nagahama worker -> agashiru
Sakai worker -> worker
Mori are building Sistine's and Leo's

3. 290 AD
I am worried about the busloads of Mori Kensai around Kyoto and Kobe, what are they up to?
attack on Kyoto starts, first the 4 cats take 2 hp away from Otomos
army kills otomo
Elite kensai kills otomo
vet kensai kills otomo
Kobe captured, 6 slaves and city kept its harbour, order temple
hire taxman in Azuchi
now make a loss of -3 per turn, unit costs amount to 104gpt
we need markets
rush settler in winegaki
Chosogabe and Takeda have gunpowder
switch Handa from agashiru to market
switch Suzuka from samurai to market
move troops towards Otsu
I could have gotten Himeji in Kuroda peace deal but Otsu should fall quickly anyway, it is size 1 and might auto-raze
peddle maps but nobody is interested

ITB
Mori wants to renew ROP, they are annoyed, we agree and they are polite again
learn gunpowder from GL
Heroic epic finished
Azuchi heroic epic -> market
Winegaki settler -> market

4. 300 AD
Arrrgghh, no salpeter no-where
vet Kagesuke kills otomo at Otsu and redlines
Kagesuke dies redlining otomo
kagesuku kills redlined otomo, Otsu auto-razes, 1 slave worker
Space, I am now firmly with you and against attacking Mori (they parade around between Kyoto and Tottori:
13 kensai
3 samurai
That would cause us problems for sure. Would love to know what they try to achieve. Hope very much they do not ROP rape and sneak attack us
peace with Kuroda for 10gpt, 18gp, maps
Han has education, Takeda as well, so next turn we get Edu and GL is done for :(
nobody has anything to trade for gunpowder
gift monotheism and engeniering to Goguryeo in hope they will give Han some grief
switch taxman in Azuchi to scientist, fire scientist in ??? (forgot :blush: )
some MM and lux can be dropped to 0%
we are back in the black with +27gpt

ITB
get education from GL
Shimazu land settler pair next to ruins of Otsu grrrr :mad:
our settler is still miles away

5. 310 AD
everyone is fairly broke, no trades possible for either gunpowder or education short of giving it away for close to free
worker moves
rush settler at Wakayama for 112gp

ITB
Shimazu settle 1NE from Otsu ruins
FP finished
Ise FP -> market
Wakayama settler - agashiru
Ogaki agashiru -> agashiru

6. 320 AD
move settlers into position

ITB
cancel wine deal with Toku
Embichi agashiru -> market

7. 330 AD
found New Azuchi, set to temple

ITB
Kwanaka Kensai -> market

8. 340 AD
found Moriyama-ku, set to temple
switch scientist in Azuchi to clown (for 3 turns until market finishes)
hire scientist in Handa

ITB
Takeda wants to re-new wine deal, we get 13gpt, accept
Nagoya samurai ->
Yokkachi samurai -> kensai
Fur deal with Shimazu expired

9. 350 AD
lux to 10%
Shimazu have fur on offer, will leave the dealing to the next player in line
switch clown in Azuchi to scientist, fire scientist in Handa

Good luck.

a space oddity

Nov 24, 2003, 04:44 PM

Well done getting rid of those green cities... :)

Really bad news about the Saltpeter though, we have to consider what source to conquer. The Mori have a source tantalizingly close by, and already connected too, but the RoP prevents us from taking that one soon. The one source on Tokugawan soil is rather far away, in mountains and not connected. The good news is that the Shimazan are lacking too.

mad-bax

Nov 24, 2003, 04:53 PM

Denyd: You are UP

denyd

Nov 24, 2003, 05:20 PM

First, nice bit of :hammer: on the Kuroda to Shevek

Now, let's see where our targets are:

1. The Kuroda have a saltpeter and only 1 city left and it's on an island, but 14 turns left on peace treaty (bad rep if attack now)

2. The Tokugawa have less military, have distant saltpeter and a neighbor we might get to help us, but we've got no troops on that border.

3. The Mori are as strong as us, have one nearby saltpeter (and another one in the distance) and very defensible borders with lots of troops running around our territory (and an ROP in progress)

Goals for my 10 turns tonight:

Build a couple of junks to take Himeji (the Kuroda island city) at the end of the peace treaty (a project for Space), we'll need those junks later for our little trip to visit the Han

Squeeze in 3 cities around Wakayama to pressure Sasebo & grab the wool

Rename one of the New Azuchi's

Add marketplaces to larger cities

Keep building Samurai for offense and strengthen eastern frontier

Trade to get luxuries and new tech without breaking the bank

Wish I could do more, but that's all I can think of. I shouldn't have any problems getting my turns done and posted tonight (DSL willing).

Suggestions?

barbslinger

Nov 24, 2003, 05:48 PM

Getting some troops over on the island in the neutral zone to wait for peace to expire. Won't one of the other civs that don't have a deal with Kuroda take the saltpeter from them. I doubt we can surround Kuroda to keep that morsel from falling to Takada/Toku/Choso/Shmazu.
Mori dead when ROP is over.
When does Shimazu deal end. We can get our city back then with Choso alliance to get them fighting.
Samurai buildup with Agahirus that will soon upgrade. Saltpeter trade gods willing.
Develop the now less currupt cities around FP.

denyd

Nov 24, 2003, 06:32 PM

Mad-Bax:

Are you planning to put read to here messages on each of the three threads so we'll be able to check out the other guys progress?

DenyD

Shevek

Nov 25, 2003, 12:12 AM

I forgot, the FIRAXIS score at 350AD is

821

As to the salpeter, sorry I didn't pay enough attention. I could have secured one by taking Himeji in peace treaty but didn,t notice the salpeter there at all :blush:.
We are still strong vs everyone apart the Mori. I went chicken when they paraded all their troops around and signed ROP. They were annoyed and I believe they were about to go for us. That would have hurt us quite a bit as they would have had the first turn in war and our troops were still busy with Otsu.

Denyd, you will find that there is hardly any space left to settle araund Wakayama. There is a ring of 6 cities around it, 4 ours, 1 Mori and 1 Shimazu. You could squeeze 1 more in on the hill SE of Wakayama, I suppose.

I think getting the Toku salpeter should be possible. Go for their cities by the south route and join up our territory with Takeda. That is 4 cities to take, should be doable with some more samurai.
3 more are going to be ready within 5 turns. 2 are already at the south border together with some Kagesuke and Kensai.

Have fun Denyd.

Edit
PS: Check out the fur deal that's possible with Shimazu. With fur we can get lux down to 0% again.

barbslinger

Nov 25, 2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Shevek

As to the salpeter, sorry I didn't pay enough attention. I could have secured one by taking Himeji in peace treaty but didn,t notice the salpeter there at all :blush:.Have fun Denyd. [/B]

I was reading the turnlog at work and thought the same thing BUT if they have only one city left they can't give up the capital. The option to get Hemeji for peace ended when Otsu went down. Even if you would have seen it and taken it that would have left Otsu as capital and left us flip risk potential on our new cities.

Am I the only one that wants Mori instead of Toku? That saltpeter is one city away. We are probably only average to them until a couple more samurai come off the line. We have to neutralize them soon or they'll be marching through our back door while we're going after Toku. Not to mention the nice looking Tottori and Yonago left. If we do go with Toku we should possibly get Mori in an alliance with us so that his units will all be over in Toku land. We have an ROP with him and it would be disasterous if Toku pulls Mori in against us. I would like to go after Mori and Takada with Toku allied with us vs. Takada. Let them attrition themselves on their border and after 20 turns spring on Toku. We should have the Mori pretty cleaned up by then.

denyd

Nov 25, 2003, 01:26 AM

Kind of sorry I missed the last couple posts before I played. I've got 3 settlers near Wakayama, that'll need to be redirected. There are 4 stacks of Samurai/Kensai setup to take cities from Tokugawa on Space's first turn. I'm a little concerned were down 4 techs (Typography, Chemistry, Astronomy & Banking). Since Toku has 3 of these, a sucessful campaign should get us back to even with the peace treaty. After 5 more turns there are 4 junks ready for loading an assault force for Heimji then bye-bye Kuroda and hello saltpeter.

I'll try to post more comments romorrow, GO SPACE

Here's the turn log:

GOTM 24 SG – Turn 3 Recap

Turn 0 – Reset Preferences - Pre-flight check – Trade TM with Baejke – Trade TM to Goguryeo for TM + 3g – Trade TM with Han Dynasty – Trade Wool + 8gpt + WM to Shimazu for Furs – Trade Wines to Chosogabe for WM + 79g + 6gpt – Trade TM to Mori for TM + 1g – Trade TM with Korea – Trade TM to Takeda for WM + 1g – Trade TM to Kuroda for TM + 3g – Trade TM to Tokugawa for TM + 1g – Fire taxman in Azuchi – Kick Kuroda archer out of country – Kick Chosogabe settler / warrior out of country – Decide we’ve got lots of troops sitting on their butts, lets use them. Switch all defensive unit builds to offensive units – press button to start – Switch Nagoya to Settler

IBT: Most activity is Mori units moving – Moryama-ku builds junk starts another

360 AD – Decide on 3 rally points an send all troops to one of them – upgrade 4 Kagesuke to Samurai (note: I’m the one naming units as I upgrade them for those curious)
Trade Check: nothing new

IBT: Lots of Mori movement – Mori settler pair enters territory – Azuchi builds Marketplace starts Settler – Komaki builds Samurai starts another – Shakasani builds temple starts Agashiru – Goguryeo start Leo’s – Han start Copernicus – Slider to 0-9-1 (no science)

Turn 2 – 370 AD – All workers road a square before leaving – irrigation & mines in process – Military units heading west – upgrade 2 to more to Samurai
Trade Check: Tokugawa, Han Dynasty, Chosogabe & Takeda now with Chemistry & Astronomy – either available for all gold + 60gpt, best price from Tokugawa, pass

IBT: Ivory deal over and Shimazu want all gold + 14gpt for more, I pass, cities will probably riot – Tokugawa starts Copernicus – (Surprise, no riots)

Turn 3 – 380 AD – Military continues eastward movement – upgrade 3 more to Samurai – Workers complete projects and move
Trade check: nothing new – hawk TM for 8g

IBT: Another luxury deal runs out and Chosogabe wants 23gpt + WM for silks, pass again – Azuchi builds settler starts another – Ise riots taxman hired – Koromo builds Samurai starts another – Nagahama builds Oda starts Samurai – Sakai builds worker starts temple – Tehjay builds Samurai starts another – Kuroda (with 1 city) start Sistine Chapel :rofl:

Turn 4 – 390 AD – More irrigation, mining & road building for the workers – Other units heading west – settler sent to claim Saesbo sheep
Trade Check: No changes (except a Takeda slave available for 90g + 4gpt, pass)

IBT: Mori troops bop around – Mori & Tokugawa settler pair heading east – Nagoya builds settler starts spearman – Suzuka riots (oops) hire a taxman – Handa builds marketplace starts Samurai – Yokkachi builds Oda starts Samurai – Hikone builds marketplace starts Samurai – Ogaki builds temple starts Samurai

Turn 5 – 400 AD – More workers doing their thing – Military head count – Station 1 (target Yaizu) 3 Samurai & 3 Kensai – Station 2 (target Shizuoka) 5 Samurai & 4 Kensai & 1 Elite Kagesuke – Station 3 (Target New Iida) 5 Samurai + 1 elite Kagesuke + 1 A-Spearman
Trade Check: Same options (70+gpt + all gold for either tech)

IBT: More Mori movement – Azuchi builds settler starts A-Spear – Mori start Copernicus

Turn 6 – 410 AD – New Headcount station #1 5 Samurai-5 Kensai-1 A-spear-0 Kagesuke #2 5-4-1-0 #3 5-1-1-0 Add station # 4 (target New Hamamatsu) 0-0-0-0
Trade Check: Mori now have Astronomy (price down to 30g + 61gpt)

IBT: Lots of pointless Mori movement – Mori settler blocked heads south – Tokugawa comes calling and we swap TM – Ise builds marketplace starts settler – Morayama-ku builds junk starts another – Toyotomi builds junk starts temple – Shimazu start Copernicus

Turn 7 – 420 AD – Workers continue basic land improvement – troops almost in place for beginning of Tokugawa conquest
Trade Check: Best deal now Wines + 45gpt + 60g to Tokugawa for Astronomy – hawk TM for 7g & 3TM

IBT: More Mori movement – Takeda start Copernicus –

Turn 8 – 430 AD – Space should enjoy :hammer: on Tokugawa – current count #1 3-6-1 #2 7-6-1 #3 7-4-1 #4 Oda Army + 2 Samurai in route
Trade Check: Han now have banking – nothing else changed

IBT: Shimazu want to talk – we swap TM – Azuchi builds A-Spear starts Samurai Ichinomiya builds Kensai starts another

Turn 9 – 440 AD – Another turn of mining, irrigating & road building – just a couple of units left to position
Trade Check: Sell Son Buddhism to Baejke for WM + 24g – Tokugawa now has Banking – Sell Education to Kuroda for 69g + WM - WM around for 16g + 3WM

IBT: Good news, Mori troops now all heading east – Nagoya builds A-spear starts marketplace – Ise builds settler starts Samurai – Suzuka builds Marketplace starts Samurai – Kita-ku builds Samurai starts A-spear – Baejke starts Sistine Chapel

Turn 10 – 450 AD – 3 settlers nearing station in Wakayama area, MP waiting for them – 1 settler heading to point NW of Himeji - #3 8-4-1 #2 8-6-1 #1 3-6-0 #4 2-1-0 with Kensai Army in route
Not much available to trade for, the 50 turn Chemistry gambit would not have worked (Typography might)

Firaxis score: 953 (in 5th place trailing leader Tokugawa (1152)

Edit: Sorry forgot to Zip the file

HERE IS THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-450-AD.SAV)

mad-bax

Nov 25, 2003, 01:48 AM

Space: You are UP

a space oddity

Nov 25, 2003, 02:02 AM

I see it, will 'get it' (and probably play) tonight. The turnlog sounds good. When I've seen the save, I will post some comments and thoughts before I play.

Shevek

Nov 25, 2003, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by barbslinger

I was reading the turnlog at work and thought the same thing BUT if they have only one city left they can't give up the capital. The option to get Hemeji for peace ended when Otsu went down. Even if you would have seen it and taken it that would have left Otsu as capital and left us flip risk potential on our new cities.

You are perfectly right of course. I did not think of flip risk with their capital nearby.
Uhh always so many things to consider. Whenever I think I have figured it out and am being very clever indeed, someone comes by and says "But have you considered XYZ?" I just love this game, there is always some more to discover and learn.

@Denyd, I like the trading :goodjob:

Any pictures any-one? I tend to check at lunch break at work and pictures would be great for that.
I will post some when I am back home tonight unless someone else does so before that.

PS: Am I the only one who would just love to look at the other team's threads??
I keep checking Mad-bax's score chart and find it hard to restrain myself not to have a peek. (Don't worry, I will not do it. I am strong!! ;) )
BTW, our lead in score has evaporated :(
But again, it is too early to draw conclusions.

mad-bax

Nov 25, 2003, 07:11 AM

Remember the age old axiom

Firaxis for show, Jason for dough ;)

Shevek

Nov 25, 2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by mad-bax
Firaxis for show, Jason for dough ;)

I shall bear that in mind.

And as promised for those at work some pictures.

This is the Tokugawa border:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-450AD-Toku_border.jpg

And here our new Northern territories:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-450AD-North.jpg

a space oddity

Nov 25, 2003, 12:51 PM

I looked at the save... :thumbsup: What a way to receive the game, it feels like a present. :) I hope I'll prove worthy of that gift. :thanx:

edit: cross posted, now all can see how wonderfully poised we are. :love:

edit2: I'll use the army for pillaging Toku's sole Iron source. Given lida's closeness to Toku's capital and the culture balance of 4-1 against, I think the flip risk is much too high, we'd risk losing our army... :eek:

barbslinger

Nov 25, 2003, 01:52 PM

We can raze and replace. The 3 settlers would need to get a move on, 4-6 turns? We need a better road to bring the pults into play too. Alliances with Takada, Mori would help. Takada will probably jump in on his own accord as soon as he sees we are taking cities, risky though. Mori would cost us but when he sends troops to Toku to help us, we can kill his wounded troops on the way home. When we declare back on Mori we should get Takada help and then kill his troops on the way home. Occilate!
Need to secure Hemeji. The Oda Navy begins it's glory! Samurai and Kensai marine beach landing.
Leader fishing for Leos too. If we get another leader after that a Palace in Wakayama would make a new core for military.
Good luck Space. Man I am liking this a lot
:D

a space oddity

Nov 25, 2003, 04:51 PM

I half way. It's midnight here, so I'm calling it a night. No leaders yet, but it's going fine thanks to the great build up. So far I've captured 7 Tuko cities including Kumano and Yokkaichi (saltpeter!).

barbslinger

Nov 25, 2003, 07:53 PM

Just looking at the sceenshot inset view here at work and it looks like there is still room on that barb island where the volcanos were. Possible future staging spot for Shimazu/other tribe attacks.

a space oddity

Nov 26, 2003, 04:46 PM

MB4 - turnlog 450AD

Goals
Declare Toku.
Try to get Takeda with us.
Fill up the land that comes free.

Pre-turn:
What a perfect setup. All's ready for us to declare Toku, only have nothing but money to entice Takeda to help us. I don't know if we'll have enough.
I switch two of the southern coastal cities to Settlers because we want to settle the spots that'll open up before the Mori do.

Declare Toku.

Battle for New lida:
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Otomo spear: Sam redlines and retreats without hurting the spear.
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Otomo spear: Sam wins and promotes to 4/5.
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Otomo spear: Sam wins and promotes to 5/5 and takes the city. [dance]

Battle for Shizuoka:
Capture the worker.
4/4 Samurai vs 4/4 Agashiru spear: Sam redlines and retreats without hurting the spear.
4/4 Samurai vs 4/4 Agashiru spear: Sam dies spear to 3/4.
4/4 Samurai vs 5/5 Otomo spear: Sam wins, 2/4 left.
4/4 Samurai vs 3/4 Agashiru spear: Wins unscratched and takes the city. :)
Move Catapult from Kita-ku to Shizuoka.

Call up Takeda, they'll join us for WM, 13gpt and 320g. Hmmmm, the bad thing about these alliences is that you're not free to make peace when you want it. OTOH we wouldn't want Toku to sign them up against us. I decide to make the deal, also because we're religious and can switch to monarchy if the WW becomes too severe. So sign allience against Toku with Takeda.

Check happiness and press enter.

IT
The Mori retreat their settler pairs and some of their troops! :)
Toku moves an Archer.
Tanabe Temple -> Market
Komaki Samurai -> Spear
Shakasani Spear -> Settler

460AD - turn 1
Move army to Iron.

Battle for New H..matsu:
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 3/3 Archer: wins unscratched
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Otomo spear: redlines but wins.
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Otomo spear: wins has 2/4 left, but there's yet another defender!

Battle for Yaizu:
4/4 Samurai vs 3/3 Agashiru spear: dies without making a dent.
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 3/3 Agashiru spear: dies promoting the spear to 3/4.
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 3/3 Agashiru spear: dies promoting the spear to 2/4.
5/5 Kensai Oda vs 3/4 Agashiru spear: wins 2/5 left.
4/4 Samurai vs 4/4 Minamoto Samurai: dies Toku Sam has 2/4 left.
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 2/4 Agashiru spear: dies not hurting the spear any further.
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 2/4 Agashiru spear: wins 3/4 left.
4/4 Samurai vs 2/4 Minamoto Samurai: dies promoting the Sam to 3/5.
Gary saves the day
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 3/5 Minamoto Samurai: wins taking the city.
Wow that was bloody. :(

Because we will be in this war for a while I think we need to use the brokering opportunity with Banking.
Buy Banking from Chosogabe for WM, 49gpt and 135g.
Get Typography and WM from Korea for Banking.
Buy Astronomy for Banking and 12gpt.

OK, this was more expensive then I hoped, but we should not fall behind too far. We should be able to get Chemistry for peace later.

Check happiness and press enter.

IT
Takeda signs Chosogabe in our war.
Hikone Sam -> Sam
New lida riots, gets a scientist.

470AD - turn 2
Found New Nagoya, start Temple.
Damn, the yellow border crept on our settler spot. :mad:

Battle for New H..matsu:
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 3/3 Otomo spear: wins and takes the city.

Move troops into position, capturing 2 workers.

Check diplo and sell WM around for some petty cash.
Check happiness, Shakasani needs a taxman and press enter.

IT
Now I see some troop movement by Toku, but it's not very impressive.
Handa Samurai -> Samurai
Morayama-ku Settler -> Spear
Embichi Settler -> Catapult

480AD - turn 3
The army pillages the Toku Iron.
Near Yaizu:
4/4 Samurai vs 4/4 Minamoto: wins 3/4 left.
4/4 Kensai Oda vs 5/5 Kagesuke: Kagesuke redlines and retreats.

Battle for Owase:
4/4 Sam vs 4/4 Otomo Spear: redlines but wins.
5/5 Sam vs 3/3 Otomo Spear: redlines and retreats.
4/4 Sam vs 2/3 Otomo Spear: redlines but wins and takes the city. :)

Founded Pressure-1, starts Temple.
Founded Pressure-2, starts Temple.

Diplo check:
Sell Dyes to Chosogabe for WM, 8 gpt and 77g. Ask them to leave, he says he will but doesn't yet.

Check happiness and press enter.

IT
Our troops in the field get attacked, but only one Oda falls, 3 other defenders promote!
I finally see some Takeda action.
Azuchi Samurai -> Samurai
Kyoto Oda -> Walls
Kobe Temple -> Spear
Yiazu quells resisters and riots, get a taxman.
Owase quells resisters and riots too, gets entertainers.
Our Place gets a second floor. :)
The Gogury start Sistine.

490AD - turn 4
Near Yaizu:
13/13 Army vs 4/4 Minamoto: wins losing 3 hps.

Battle for Yok..ichi:
4/4 Oda vs 4/4 Sam: dies promoting the Sam to 3/5.
4/4 Oda vs 3/5 Sam: redlines but wins promoting to 2/5.
4/4 Oda vs 3/3 Agashiru spear: redlines but wins promoting to 2/5.
5/5 Kagesuke vs 3/3 Makuta bow: wins at 2/5 capturing the city and 3 workers.

Nearby: 4/4 Sam vs 4/4 Makuta bow: wins 2/4 left.

Diplo check: Toku is already willing to talk.
Happiness: Our first round of WW sets in, slider to (7.0.3) for +16gpt.

IT
The Mori want to renew the RoP, agreed.
Toku attacks Yokkaichi, redlines and promotes the defending Sam.
Yokkaichi riots, it goes on starvation diet.
Komaki Spear -> Market

500AD - turn 5
Near Yaizu:
5/5 Oda vs 4/4 Bow: wins 2/5 left.
5/5 Oda vs 4/4 Bushi: wins 4/5 left.

Battle for Kumano:
4/4 Oda vs 4/4 Sam: redlines but wins.
5/5 Oda vs 4/4 Agashiru spear: dies, defender has 3/4 left.
4/4 Sam vs 3/3 Agashiru spear: redlines and retreats, defender has 2/3 left.
5/5 Oda vs 3/4 Agashiru spear: wins
5/5 Oda vs 2/3 Agashiru spear: dies promoting the defender to 3/4.
4/5 Sam vs 3/4 Agashiru spear: wins and captures the city and 3 workers. The saltpeter is ours! :)

Near Kumano:
5/5 Kagesuke vs 3/3 bow: dies redlining the bow. :(
4/4 Sam vs 1/3 bow: wins unscratched.

Switch Kita-ku to Settler.

Diplo check: Our WM is worth a lot this round.
Happiness OK, press enter.

a space oddity

Nov 26, 2003, 04:47 PM

IT
I spot a Takeda Cav :eek:, it dies :eek:
Kuroda wants to renew peace, hmmm, I don't think so....
Kobe riots... gets taxman.
Ise Sam -> Sam
Yokkaichi flips back, very expensive, 5 untis were healing there. :mad:
Nagahama riots, taxman.
Kita-ku Settler -> Spear.
New Azuchi riots, taxman.
Takeda has taken Shimada.

510AD - turn 6
Battle for Yokkaichi:
4/5 Oda vs Otomo spear: wins 2/5 left, take and raze the city.

Near Yaizu:
4/4 Oda vs 3/3 Archer: wins 2/4 left.

Near Kumano:
5/5 Sam vs 3/3 Warrior: dies, warrior has 2/4 left. :eek:
5/5 Sam vs 2/4 Warrior: wins unscratched.

Founded New Ise near the Saltpeter, starts worker.
Hurry Temple in Moriyama-too for 44g.

Diplo check: Navigation is around, Toku has it too... :).
Check happiness, OK.

IT
Toku Sam attacks our Sam in stack and dies.
Toku Sam attacks our spear in stack and wins. :(
Yokkachi Sam -> Spear.
Ichinomiya Worker -> Catapult
Moriyama-too Temple -> Catapult
Han starts Magellan.

520AD - turn 7
Takeda has taken Shimoda (with Dyes).

Near Iida:
4/4 Sam vs 5/5 Kagesuke: redlines but wins.

Near Kumano:
5/5 Sam vs 2/5 Bow: wins unscratched.

Near Moriyama-too:
Cat hurts Kuroda Archer 2/3.

Diplo check: Nothing new.
Check happiness, OK.

IT
Toku kills an Oda.
Kuroda Archer retreats.
Koromo Samurai -> Settler
Winegaki Market -> Samurai
Resistence ends in several cities, without riots. :)
Tehjay Samurai -> Settler
Shimazu start Magellan.

530AD - turn 8
Battle for Iida:
3/4 Sam vs 1/4 Minamoto: wins without losing anymore hps.
10/13 Army vs 3/3 Agashiru: wins 7/13 left
4/4 Sam vs 3/3 Agashiru: redlines but wins, and we raze the city.

Near the ruins of Yokkaichi:
4/4 Sam vs 4/4 Minamoto: wins unscratched and promotes to elite.

Now Toku is ready to give up Chemistry (12 turns left on the MA)
Happiness check, Koromo has grown and needs a taxman.

IT
Our Sam-on-a-hill is attacked by elite Sam, redlines, but wins.
Azuchi Samurai -> Samurai
Morayama-ku Spear -> Sam
Hikone Sam -> Sam
Ogaki Sam -> Harbor
New Hamamatsu riots, get taxman.
Choso starts Magellan and completes Leo's, hmmmm.
Mori start Copernicus, Korean Sistine and Copernicus, Takeda completes Copernicus.

540AD - turn 9
Shimoda has flipped form Takeda to Toku.
Hurry Temple in Yaizu for 48g.
Settler has finally arrived on the ruins of Yokkaichi.
Move troops around to make a more compact force.
Workers start connecting the Saltpeter.
Hurry a settler in Koromo.

It was clearly a mistake to not renew the peace deal with Kuroda, the WW reaches a new height.

IT
Renew the Dyes deal with Takeda, from 13gpt to 15 gpt.
Han wants to talk, sure. He wants to sell us his WM for 20g, no lets exchange TMs instead. :)
Kyoto and Kobe riot.
Koromo Settler -> Samurai
Yaizu riots, Temple -> Samurai
Handa Samurai -> Samurai
Kumano quells a resitor and riots, gets taxman.
Kasugai Market -> Sam
Komaku riots, get Taxman.
The people love me :crazyeye:
AI all start Sistine and/or Magellan.

550AD - turn 10
Found Yok-Revenged, start Temple.
Near Yok-Revenged:
5/5 Sam vs 3/3 Bushi: wins 4/5 left (again no GL)
4/4 Sam vs 4/4 Archer: wins upgrades to 3/5.

There's a stack near Ina fortified, the next player could attack in the pre-turn if desired.
Our empire is in a bit of a state I'm afraid, but I'm hoping Takeda will back out of the MA soon leaving us to get Chemistry (and maybe Navigation) for peace.

Kuroda also would agree to peace, so again up to the next player to decide whether we want to take that last city or not, troops (with some movement left) are available in Handa.

Firaxis points: 1101

a space oddity

Nov 26, 2003, 04:53 PM

What to do next:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4-PTW-500AD.JPG

There is another settler down south, near Ina.

And finally the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/MB4PTW-550AD.zip).

barbslinger

Nov 26, 2003, 06:14 PM

Gobbling up land!
Takada cavs! :eek:
Need to ID the balance of Saltpeter and acquire so they can't build anymore. I'm at work, but I think the other ones on our side of the world ar 2 with Mori and the last one with Kuroda, which we should take out, to decrease WW and get before Takada does the deed.
No leaders. :cry:

Get 'em Dave shack!

mad-bax

Nov 27, 2003, 02:00 AM

Yes: Daveshack you are UP

LordKestrel

Nov 27, 2003, 02:07 AM

Looking good guys!

TedJackson

Nov 27, 2003, 02:16 AM

:hammer: down Space :goodjob:

Ted

Shevek

Nov 27, 2003, 06:35 AM

Now that was some determined warmongering. :thumbsup: The war was far more successful then I thought possible. I am impressed.

I think we should take out Kuroda ASAP to get the salpeter under control and of course get rid of WW.

DaveShack

Nov 27, 2003, 09:51 AM

Got it.

Now I'll have to take the Conquests CD out of the drive and put the PTW one back in... :cool:

Haven't looked at the save yet, but from comments gather we didn't renew peace with Kuroda, so they will be history as soon as enough units arrive via boat, and sounds like maybe that is already the case?

Probably need to start on additional ship production soon as a reasonably good kind of ship is available (assuming of course we haven't already done so...)

a space oddity

Nov 27, 2003, 09:57 AM

Well, the units are in the area, but not on the boats yet, it souldn't take too long.

There are 4 ships available, ATM.

Good luck. Get that elusive leader for me, will you?

(I had a decent number of elite wins during my turns, so if you could add some more we should see one soon since we have the Heroic Epic.)

barbslinger

Nov 27, 2003, 11:51 AM

Looking at save and we look great on land acquisition. Things I see:

1. Need to develop upper core so that after a palace jump it won't be so corrupt. Anyone have palace location ideas. I still like Kobe/Wakayama. Toku cities, if corrupt should have Temple for expansion and walls for defense if Takada comes calling. I would hate to risk a Palace over there that will be tough to defend.

2. Takada cavs! Need to get to MT pronto and have money for upgrades. Trading skills at a premium now.

3. Tech pace. Do we need to slow it down? Wars with Han would be nice if we could get everyone involved. Somehow? Takada, Shimazu and Han look like the biggest dogs. Alliances that would be nice to provoke. Choso + Mori vs Shimazu. Shimazu + Takada vs Han.

4. Lack of mines on hills for production. Winegaki and Azuchi are 2 in particular. We have a ton of workers in corrupt Wakayama area. We are developing this area for more red shields?

5. LIBRARIES, UNIVERSITIES. We are going to have to get to self researching soon.

6. I also noticed trade routes open with Korea/Han.

Next target? Until we get MT Takada is our new best friend. Getting Takada running across country/globe to fight with us may be the best. Mori's cities in our land and Saltpeter stores gets my vote. We can balance development with military production with that war. Getting their cities in our land and extending to the last saltpeter with them having 4-5 cities left should do the trick. Once palace is set up and second core producing we should be able to outproduce and outresearch the rest of the way.

a space oddity

Nov 27, 2003, 12:24 PM

I agree on the libraries. I just needed to do the Markets first for the upgrades.

I agree on the workers too. I tried to get some back to the western erea, but the land is big and makes movement slow.

I left the trade with Han in particular open for discussion because I'm not sure what our strategy in dealing with them should be. I afraid he'll take all of the Korean lands if we sign the small ones against him. Ideal would be a war between them and Takeda not sure how we should achieve this. We have nothing to offer.

DaveShack

Nov 28, 2003, 11:22 PM

Still playing, squeezing in a turn or two at a time. Hope you all don't mind if I'm a few hours late due to all the holiday goings-on. :)

mad-bax

Nov 29, 2003, 08:52 AM

I am going to be away from the forums over the weekend. I hope you guys can bear to be without me for that long. ;)

a space oddity

Nov 29, 2003, 08:53 AM

NO! Don't leave us MB! :cry: ;)

Shevek

Dec 01, 2003, 09:43 AM

DaveShack, are you still there??
Must be quite some holiday you are having ;).

Edit: grammar

denyd

Dec 01, 2003, 12:38 PM

I've been away for 3 days and I'm a little surprised. I kind of expected to be up or on-deck. I've lost touch with what's going on here, what with the holidays and the push to finish GOTM 25.

I'll go back over space's turns and look for a DaveShack post soon.

:beer:

mad-bax

Dec 01, 2003, 12:56 PM

I think we should cut Daveshack some slack and give him another day to post. Thanksgiving is an important holiday and he has new responsibilities to boot. If we don't hear from him by this time tomorrow I'll PM him and let him know he's been skipped.

Shevek

Dec 01, 2003, 04:13 PM

I am cool about it. Was just wondering.

mad-bax

Dec 02, 2003, 09:23 AM

I have opened the other two game threads for you to look at. In the first post I have published page numbers that you can safely read to. When I get time I'll replace the plain text with links.

On another note I suggest that if Daveshack doesn't post today then the baton should be passed on.
So Dave, if you can read this please post before midnight GMT otherwise I will have to skip you.

DaveShack

Dec 02, 2003, 09:40 AM

Howdy all,

Please accept my abject apology for the amount of time my turns are taking. Sleep deprivation (newborn-related) has hit with a vengence, and we had a very full weekend of friends & family events.

I'm up to turn 5. Here is the log so you'll have something to read and offer pointers on. In short, I missed the river next to Ina and attacked from the wrong square, and it didn't fall as quickly as it should have, and Takeda got in there first. :cry: Also I must be the worst at predicting when the people will be unhappy... :(

Inherited turn: 550AD

Some movement left,

Otomo toward junk, samauri on junk. Lots of worker moves.

Trade check
There are two kinds of opponents, the onew which is up chem and nav, and the kind which
is down a bunch of tech. Nothing interesting on the pure trading front.

Noticed from Space's notes that saltpeter is there near New Ise. It is outside our
boundry but could be taken with a colony, which will be cheaper and faster than
roading it and then waiting for expansion. Wait for now until finding out how
long Kumano's temple will be after it goes out of disorder.

Wake stack at Ina.
Vet Kensai loses to Agashiru
Samuari Atlas loses to same Agashiru
Vet sam retreats from untouched reg. agashiru
Zeus sam retreats from reg. agashiru -- maybe this is not a good idea, pull wounded back to heal

IBT
Mori/Takeda alliance vs Tokugawa
Mori delcare war on Toku
Kuroda request audience, offer straight peace -- no thanks
Lots of Mori units walking around
Chosogabe offer 6gpt in exchange for wines. After we ask for more, he happily pays 16gpt+5g.
Lost our supply of furs
Shimazu, old deal was furs for wool+8gpt, don't want to extend.
Their new asking price is 18gpt+wool+wm. hold off to nego on our turn
Sam defeats our spear/pike on the ruins, redlines
Riots, riots, everywhere
Shimazan town of Kunamoto completes Magellans Voyage
Shimazan town of Yatsushiro completes Sistene Chapel !!
Pressure-1 completes temple, starts worker

Turn 1, 560AD, 7.0.3 361g+60gpt
OK, riots were expected, negotiate a lux deal
Korea will offer to sell incense for wool, wines, 270g, world map. Can talk them down to
2 lux, WM, 215g. keep checking
Han offer spices for wines, 4gpt, 361g. Will accept wines+10gpt+190g, check some more
Chosogabe will offer silks for 14gpt+361g, not likely
Shimazu have lost interest in trade

Take the Korea deal, buy incense for wool, wines, 215g.

Redo MM, Kobe would need clown, Tanabe needs 1 clown 1 taxman, Nagahama 1+1,
Set Kumano (in resistance) to all entertainers to starve it town
Ichinomiya 1 clown 1 taxman, TehJay 1+1, Shakasani 1+1, New Azuchi 1 ent.
18 total specialists, another 10% lux would cost 30gpt.

Odysseus (otomo spear) onto Junk
Colonize the saltpeter, move remaining workers to build road on the iron.

Battle for Ina
Vet sam dies taking 2hp off an elite Agashiru
Vet sam defeats reg Agashiru
4/5 sam loses to reg Agashiru which is untouched, promotes

Near Hamamatsu, vet sam defeats redlined sam
Over in the former Kuroda lands, vet sam hunts down Kuroda archer in Mori territory, promotes 3/5
Move some NE territory workers back toward the core

Back to Ina, Elite sam defeats vet Agashiru
Elite sam dies redlining that powerful 3/5 Agashiru, they also have a vet samurai

Founded Koromusitu on the formerly Toku iron, producing temple.
Move other settler toward ruins.
Change a defensive unit build to musket (Oda Arqubusier) in Kita-ku

IBT
Lots of Mori movement
Toku Minamoto Samurai defeats reg Kensai

Ise produces Samurai, starts another
Yokkachi produces Agashiru Spear, starts Samurai
New lida produces worker, starts another
Toyotomi produces temple, starts library
The people love me, fancy front steps added

Turn 2, 570 AD, 217g+65gpt

Unloaded 1st junk on Kuroda saltpeter

At Yok Revenge, Elite Kensai loses to 3/4 Minamoto Samurai, which promotes to 2/5
Elite Samurai defeats the Minamoto 3/5, returns to heal.
Figured out attacks on Ina are across water (hidden by the city icon), move troops to avoid
it next turn.

IBT
Kuroda archer kills samurai
Tons of Mori movement
Wakayama riots, hire taxman
Nagahama riots, change taxman to entertainer
Sakai completes temple, starts Kensai
Embrichi completes catapult, starts another.
New Hamamatsu would complete worker but not growing because 100% unhappy. Switch to warrior.
The people love me :) add right wing to palace

Turn 3, 580 AD, 284g+70gpt
Settler builds Kokomo at ruins on N shore. Producing temple.
Fort Army in Kokomo (needs to heal, still only 7/13)
Misc movement to set up a stack against Ina -- wait one more turn

IBT

Takeda cav take out Ina. Now have to think about disengaging from Tokugawa
Nagoya completes marketplace, starts library (9)
Kobe riots, entertainer (for now)
Kumano resistance ends, riots, hire 6 taxmen
New Hamamatsu completes warrior, starts another
Kwanaka completes marketplace, starts library
Chosogabe building smiths

Turn 4, 590 AD, 356g+83gpt
Battle for Hamamatsu (Toku capital)
Vet sam vs vet sam loses
Vet sam vs vet Agashiru retreats redlined
Remainder move up and stop w/o attacking -- maybe Takeda will come up short next turn

Bumping lux a notch did not make any difference. 6 more turns left on Takeda deal

IBT
Goguryeo and Takeda sign MA against Toku
Still tons of Mori troops, we would be in a world of hurt if they were after us.
Kuroda archer kills Kensai on island, sent there for the purpose of drawing fire
Toku archer (?) attacks Samurai and loses
Azuchi completes Samurai, starts another
Han are building Smiths
Koreans building Smiths

Turn 5, 600 AD, 437g+80gpt

Vet Samurai defeats regular Kuroda Otomo, promotes
Land another Kensai on other side of island, as bait
Move Samurai and Otomo so they can't be counterattacked in 1 move
At Hamamatsu, vet samurai defeats elite samurai
Move injured units back

Worries:

Takeda grabbed one of our main targets.
Mori have enough units crossing our land to take us down if they changed their mind about who to attack
We need to get techs for peace soon, before Tokugawa gets taken out by Takeda / Mori.
Takeda are using cav to good effect.

My plan is to do the 10pm or so feeding and then play the remaining 5.5 turns.

Gotta leave for work...

mad-bax

Dec 02, 2003, 09:57 AM

Great Dave, thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

DaveShack

Dec 03, 2003, 03:37 AM

Summary:

Takeda destroyed the Tokugawa. We got chemistry and navigation,
but had to pay 70g to get the 2nd tech. We're behind a bunch still.

A leader was created on the last turn of attacking the Kuroda city. They are not eliminated, must have a settler somewhere.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4PTW-650AD.SAV)

Log of last 5 turns -- see previous post for earlier turns.

Turn 5, 600 AD, 437g+80gpt

Vet Samurai defeats regular Kuroda Otomo, promotes
Land another Kensai on other side of island, as bait
Move Samurai and Otomo so they can't be counterattacked in 1 move
At Hamamatsu, vet samurai defeats elite samurai
Move injured units back

IBT
Takeda complain about troops, promise to move
Kuroda archer kills "bait" kensai
Kyoto completes walls, starts kensai (30 turns, following player can change if desired)
Ise completes Samurai, starts arquebusier (musket, 3 turns)
New Ise completes worker, starts another
Tanabe completes agashiru, starts Kublai Junk (caravel, 20 turns)
Handa completes samurai, starts arquebusier (5)
Sakai riots due to WW, entertainer (for now)
Hikone completes samurai, starts another
TehJay completes agashiru, starts worker (2, food shortage)
The people love me :) added left wing to palace

Turn 6, 610 AD, 526g+83gpt

Vs. Kuroda, elite samurai loses to reg. otomo
Otomo moves to pillage saltpeter (should have done that before)

Assault on Hamamatsu (toku capitol)
vet sam vs vet agashiru retreats without scoring
vet sam vs vet agashiru dies but redlines opponent
3/4 sam vs vet agashiru dies but redlines
vet sam vs reg agashiru wins
vet sam vs vet otomo wins untouched
elite sam defeats redlined agashiru
2/4 sam defeats last redlined agashiru, we can capture the oracle.
here's an interesting little problem to have, as is it is a flip risk, and the oracle
is obsolete and has no value, but the town is on the perfect tile. Install a new
governor and run the flip risk, or raze the city and risk not getting a settler there?

Decided to keep it and get ready to rush a temple. It does have 2 outer squares in
control of a rival, but hopefully we can manage the flip potential.

Sent several wounded samurai to Hamamatsu to control resistors and heal

Tokugawa are down to 3 cities, and we have 4 turns remaining on the deal with Takeda.
Straight tech peace terms are chemistry, or economics + navigation.
We can get chemistry+navigation or chemistry+economics for peace+110g

Even with cavalry, it seems unlikely that Takeda would take them out in one turn,
so let's delay and see if it is possible to outlast the alliance.

Send a bunch of samurai towards Morayama-ku to take care of Kuroda once and for all

IBT
Takeda complain about troops again (an auto move landed us next to Ina), we move
Mori parade continues
Hamamatsu hires 2 taxmen
Winegaki completes samurai, starts another (9)
Yaizu riots (WW), entertainer
Owase riots (WW), taxman
Ogaki completes harbor, starts library (16)
Shimazu building Smith's
Takeda took the new Toku capitol, doesn't look like they will last another turn.

Turn 7, 620 AD, 614g+92gpt.

Peace with Toku, buy chemistry, navigation for 70g.
Move more samurai toward meeting with Kuroda
Science to 30%, +3gpt, Metallurgy in 20

Trade, we're down Metallurgy, Physics, Democracy, Economics to several civs.

IBT
Kuroda and Takeda sign alliance against Toku
Wakayama produces Kensai, starts catapult
Ichinomiya produces worker, starts arquebusier (20)
Han are building Newtons

Turn 8, 630 AD, 548g+0gpt, metallurgy in 18

MM, fire several entertainers

Upgrade a warrior to kensai for 40g
continue moving units toward Kuroda island
move samurai on kuroda island away to avoid attack

IBT
Takeda destroy tokugawa
Mori troops head home
Hamamatsu resistence ends
Ise arque->arque
TehJay worker->library (20)
Gogury building Bach's
Chosogabe building Smith's
Mori Smiths
takeda smith
takeda newton

Turn 9, 640 AD, 502g-9gpt, metallurgy in 18

More samurai to Kuroda island, ready next turn

IBT
elite sam defeats kuroda archer on defense
Azuchi samurai->samurai(5)
Morayama-ku samurai->samurai(9)
Shakasani gets entertainer
New Azuchi temple->harbor(40)
Gogury building Smith's
Han building Bach's
Chosogabe building Bach's
Chosogabe building Newton's
Koreans building Bach's
Takeda building Bach's

Turn 10, 650 AD, 493g-11gpt, Metallurgy in 16

vs Kuroda:
Vet samurai loses to reg otomo
vet samurai defeats reg otomo
elite 1/5 samurai defeats redlined otomo, wins, leader!
Kuroda city of Himeji is captured, 75g liberated. Producing harbor (40)
To my great surprise, Kuroda are not eliminated
We get 6gpt from Kuroda for peace (where can they be?)
Must be a settler somewhere, they have no cities listed on espionage page

Leader is on a boat ready for next player to decide what to do.

Firaxis score: 1261 (we are 2nd, Takeda has 1314)

a space oddity

Dec 03, 2003, 04:04 AM

Well done, Dave. This was never going to be easy, well done especially on getting the techs before Toku's demise. :goodjob:

mad-bax

Dec 03, 2003, 04:08 AM

Barbslinger: You are up

barbslinger

Dec 03, 2003, 05:46 AM

Just posted on another SG and after posting I saw that Dave had finished. Took a quick look at save to refresh (I'll play tomorrow) and when I looked for deals on Econ to possibly rush Smiths I can't get one. Only cash on the barrel head. I pulled up the 550AD save to see what deals were there and it looks like we are still paying on all of them. Go figure.
Can someone else verify this problem for me? It could be really bad.
Also any recommendations for our future strategy is, as always, greatly appreciated.

Got it

a space oddity

Dec 03, 2003, 06:06 AM

I hope it's not me. I checked the deals with Toku before attacking and there were none. The peace with Kuroda came up in an inter turn, so it was either making the deal for another 20 turns or declare and no way to check for current deals, but I don't think we had, did we?

DaveShack

Dec 03, 2003, 08:31 AM

There were 3 turns left on the MA with Takeda vs Tokugawa, does making peace with a MA active count? Now I hope I didn't make the wrong strategic decision by getting tech before they were gone by breaking it :(

a space oddity

Dec 03, 2003, 08:42 AM

IIRC the MA is broken also if one civ kills the AI the MA was against, so even if you didn't make peace the MA would be broken. :( This shouldn't affect the gpt deals though, it will affect the ability to make MA's.

denyd

Dec 03, 2003, 10:00 AM

DaveShack: :goodjob: on the tech acquisition and the Leader.

That's two AI in the history bin, so who is the next target for our Medieval War Machine? The Mori to the east? The Takeda to the west? A nearby island victim? We will need to strike quick unless you like Samurai against cavalry & rifles :suicide:

As for leader usage, I'm not really fond of spending for non-required techs (Economics) when we're behind on tech. Magellan's not a bad choice (if it's not yet built), considering we've got another island to conquer. It would be nice to be able to get Newton's, but 2 techs is probably too long to wait. Maybe waiting for Military Tradition (the only non-req'd tech I would go for) and building a Military Academy might be an idea. Actually, now that I've typed all that, trying for Economics & Smith's is probably the best plan.

Are we currently at peace with everyone?

What deals are currently in effect, opponent size/power and accessabliity are the factors we'll need to consider to our next victim. If would be nice to keep it a land war and use our other neighbor as an ally (as opposed to an opponent).

Banzai Barbslinger :ninja:

a space oddity

Dec 03, 2003, 11:07 AM

I just looked at the save and what I think we need right now is get a second core up and running. What we need to decide is whether it will be the former Kuroda lands or where Toku was. if the latter then we should consider Yok Revenge. We could use the leader to do a Palace jump.

denyd

Dec 03, 2003, 01:09 PM

Excellent point and a much better selection for this leader.

Have we built a Forbidden Palace yet (too many games at once :confused: )?

Yok's Revenge is probably a good location for the Palace.

A question though, Yok's Revenge is a little close to two fully developed cores, would we intend on using a future leader for another palace jump to the Han island once operations begin over there?

:beer:

a space oddity

Dec 03, 2003, 01:21 PM

Yes, the FP is in Ise. Both the suggested spots are rather close to our current core. Nothing to be done about that I'm afraid, I feel that we can't afford to wait.

barbslinger

Dec 03, 2003, 09:10 PM

I pondered that very question last night while checking the save. I have pretty much decided to go with Wakayama in Kuroda area. Our GPT will drop a bit initially but once we take the three Mori towns on our borders and hopefully flip Shimazu it will quickly become a military producer deluxe. If there are no exceedingly compelling viewpoints it will go to Wakayama, culture push/shield development in towns there while pop grows and then military. I will try to rush the necesary builds in our current N core sites to decrease palace loss corruption.
I think my turns will involve staying out of war and development for next war. Speaking of which, who is next? I feel getting the Mori dual saltpeter sites would be best. They are supplying someone else so it would hurt two civs. The Takada salt is right near the border and we should be able to secure that later easily enough. I think that would give us all saltpeter on our continent. Getting Takada to ally against Mori would help a lot too because with Takada troops split up in Mori lands we can pick off the healed units on the way home. Well thats my take on a plan :) My turns hopefully will be uneventful.
The rep problem is another matter all together. :( . How to recover:confused: I guess if it is truly blown, I only looked to see about GPT deals, then we need libraries Uni's ASAP or we are a long way from MT.
Another thing I noticed is that the Samurai have the same defense as the Arqbruisters. Sam upgrade to Cavs. I will try to find a couple cities where the shields divide into bruister cost to get more of those but I will be primarily going Sams.

TedJackson

Dec 04, 2003, 01:19 AM

Oh well,

back to "Pointy Stick" research :)

Ted

barbslinger

Dec 04, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by TedJackson
Oh well,

back to "Pointy Stick" research :)

Lots more fun:ripper:

Shevek

Dec 04, 2003, 06:50 AM

I favor Wakayama, too for the FP. That would imply that we go after the Mori next.
It looks like we might face cavs in any next war. Have the Mori cavs yet? That could be arkward.

Good luck Barbslinger.

a space oddity

Dec 04, 2003, 06:53 AM

FYI: We already built the FP, it's in Ise. It's the Palace that we'll move.

barbslinger

Dec 04, 2003, 11:24 AM

Things look good hit enter

IBT – Takada makes demands and since rep may be blown and we’re heading to pointy stick tech research I tell him to stick it and he proceeds to take 5 of our newly acquired cities with 30-40 cav and moves a cav force towards our core. Fished in!

On with the game

F1 check - Kobe, Kyoto, Nagahama, New Azuchi, Shaka and Yaizu fire entertainers. Slider to 20%. GPT from-5 to +43. Metallurgy in 12.
Lux slider is 40gpt to slide back to 10% so no deals will be needed for lux.
F3 check – 36 offensive, 42 defensive, 13 pults, 4 junks. Looks low. Weak to Takada (Cavs, I bet we have more units). Average to Mori. Strong to rest.
F4 – World at peace, All annoyed except, Baekje and Gogo’s. Well our rep may not be blown after all. I dialed down all sliders to test, but this seems rather steep to me. Is this kinda blown rep pricing? We only have 16 left on Metallurgy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4-650-deal.jpg

Deals left are – Korea, straight 2-1 lux trade. Shimazu we’re getting 12 back in 1 turn. Takada has 9 left of him paying us 15gpt for dyes. Choso, for now our preferred trading partner, we’re getting 49gpt back next turn and hes paying us 3 turns of 8 and 10 turns of 16. Mori has 4 turns left on a ROP which is getting cancelled.

F8- Our power with Kuroda measures nearly identical. We are at 495 -5gpt.

Do some MM’ing. Give Komaki the horse tile to get market in 2. Move some cities that need aquaducts to lower food, higher shields. Switch Nagoya, Hikone, Ogaki, Kuromo, Yokkachi to courts that I will rush before palace jump. Koromositu from temple to library because it won’t need the expansion when Hamma and Yok revenge expand, and we need libraries. Rush Kumano temple to bring in saltpeter. Accidentally rushed Owase temple with a fat finger. These high food acquisitions should turn into 10 turn worker farms until we can jump palace over to there. Was going to start redeploying western forces to east but Takada IS scary. New Arque in Ise heads to coast to await move to Salt on island.

IBT – Takada demands 39. We’re not going to war against Cavs so I acquiesce. However it gives me the idea for my opening comments. Haha again.
Suzuka – Bank > Samurai; Handa – Arque > Library; Owase – Temple > Worker; Kumano – Temple > Walls; Press-1 Worker – Sam (palace soon to help); Koromositu – Worker > Library
Mori starts Bach’s

660AD – turn 1
Looks like I have a lot of worker doings this turn. No play by play but plan is to move some to new palace area to jump shields. Mine any hills, especially bordering rivers and get a better road network to western front. Coming back to the mainland to a parade in his honor is Kuki the Saltpeter Conqueror with few samurai as body guards for the channel crossing. The populace by an overwhelming margin decided that naming the new Capital Kukiyama will proceed. Begin roading salt that was pillaged before. I never understood that one. Kuroda’s back was broken. Any deal they were giving selling it was going to break when we captured and they had too few shields/pop to build an arque which has the same defense as a sam. Changed some of the western acquisitions to low food and a taxman. They would be a pain if they grow a lot with no temple etc. In fact, Hammamatsu is 3 happy/ 3 unhappy, tax-tax-tax-clown. You get the tax money I see.

Diplo – Check the shimazu metal deal again and its down to 220+wool but no 567g. Econ can be had for 140gpt. Drop slider to 10% and only Azuchi needs a taxman. Still get sam in 4, grow in one. Metal comes in 1 turn earlier at 6.

IBT – Mori heading home still.
Ise – Arque > Lib
Komaki – Arq > Lib
New Iida – worker > worker
Shimazu start Bachs

670AD – turn 2
Just noticed Pressure-1 has a 2 tile bite out of Niimi. Flip time! Set all new palace cities to high food. Shoot, I forgot I need to rush courts so I set sci-slider back a bit. I may have to delay palace jump 1-2 turns. Kuki’s needs 3 turns to get there because he’s hitting every geisha house along the way having had to stop in Winegaki and enjoy the local offerings. Azuchi with growth stuck at 12 goes to clown. Weird in the capital but with pop stuck at 12 and can’t get any more shields I can’t justify 40some gpt. Kuki likes clowns anyhow. Moving some junks towards Mori so they can make a surprise landing in Gifu when the time is right.

F1 – noticed when sliding to 0 lux there are 4 trouble cities. Azuchi lacking temple, Ise needs a cathedral, Kasugai and Suzuka need a temple. Suzuka is working on it. Others are going over to save 40gpt. Wondering if palace move will affect happiness in Azuchi?
Diplo – Price now 180 gpt for metal. Think I’ll wait.

IBT – Takada moves 2 sams to the border of Hammamatsu. Hopefully those guys were just out for saki and wanted to see how the better half lives.
Azuchi – Temple > Sam
Nagoya – Court > Lib
Kasugai – Rushed for 20g Sam > Temple in 6, probably to be rushed in a few.
Embichi – Cat > hmm. Was going to go worker. It’s 50% corrupt so I think Aquaduct.

680AD - turn 3
Mori with 1 turn left on ROP is still camped out at Kasugai supposedly on their way home. 5 sams, 4 kensai , bowman and archer in striking distance. I shuffled thru 4 cities to get another agashiru there along with the arque I had moved there earlier to join a sam, otomo, spearman and 2 pults. Hope they are still heading home. Kuki wants no war until he gets his Kurodan land grant proceesed and palace built. Possibly later because that nutty Kuki heard there are sheep grazing nearby that he wants to inspect. Azuchi back to a taxman with new temple. MM’ed cites on N core to get courts sooner now that Nagoya court is done. Kuki, our traveling hero, stops in Kobe and while in mid celebration asks a Kurodan worker that is roading or mining our mountain about that town named Tottori and why he isn’t working their land. In secretive whispers the worker tells Kuki they yearn to be Odan. I also remembered we will need more ships so I ****ched Sakai over to junk due in 2. Well lets see how Mori like the idea of no more ROP with their 2 towns in the middle of our territory. I since negative war weariness coming up someday when Kukis samurai guards tell them to get the hell out of Kobes borders.

IBT – guess ROP expiration its next turn. It did say (1) ROP now it is just plain ROP. Now a Takada cav jumps on the mountain bordering Yoks revenge. Mori continue exodus. Choso comes in re-offering the paltry 8GPT for dyes we gace him before. I try to renegotiate and can only squeeze 4gpt from him so I tell his emissary to get they’re treasury in order because we will want 10-16 gpt when they want dyes later. They have to have more pop than before.
Hikone – Court > Sam

690AD – turn 4
The sams from the island continue west to shore up the front. Moving one across I see 2 more Takada cav behind the one on Yok revenge mountain. I better give Takada something soon. Kuki makes it to Watsayama. Wish I knew how much gpt will drop on palace jump. Kuki decides he will party a little longer to let court rush cost fall. He has also heard rumblings of Takada border sightings and is inquiring for volunteers for a possible army. There are also 2 Taka sams in neutral land next to our salt. Edit[The same guys that were near Hammamatsu.] I don’t like the smell of this.
Diplo has metal down to a lot less, 80gpt. It’s due in 3 but I slide research off to try and make deal. When it comes in Gogo should have physics for us in trade. Hope it holds.
F1 still holding tight. Mori deal on the table for sure this time and Takada looking ornery. Pressing enter.

IBT – Mori wants the deal and for for giggles I check 1 dollar added on and advisor said never! I gave world map for his territory map since I couldn’t get it straight across. The 2 Taka sams slide over again to have a look at Hammamatsu. They really like that place. The HAN and TAKADA sign MPP. Some one is planning a fight.
Suzuka – Temple > Sam
Yokkaichi – Court > Sam
Sakai – Junk > Junk
Kika-ku – Sam > Worker, it’s maxed at 6. Changed mind. It makes 5 shields and will take forever to get back to 6. It is 5spt and no extra food.
Shakashani - > It’s 30 turn Kensai comes in and goes for 80 turn courthouse.

barbslinger

Dec 04, 2003, 11:27 AM

700AD – turn 5
Tehjay - 188g court rush
Koromo - 88g court
Kwanaka – 96g court
We’re at 47g +24gpt and Kuki is ready to settle down in a palace being built for him. Check Choso again on the dyes and he coughs up 18gpt. I thought so. Shimazu gives 20gpt for wool. I think I have been weeding that one. Probably could have had it earlier. Well, now we’re +62gpt. Metal in 2. Gogo deal still waiting with wool and wine to grease the deal for physics. I give Baekje Banking for WM + 4g to see whats up over there. Nothing.

IBT – Takada and Gogo sign MPP. Mori saki drinking sams call it a night a stumble out of Takada fog far from home. Check on kicking them out and it could be war. Mori also has a single Kensai on OUR hill outside of Kasugai and about 10 other dudes behind him in Yonago and it may be war if we kick him out. What to do, what to do.
Ise – Cath > Lib
Kukiyama – Palace > Market
Koromo – Court > Kensai in 10
Winegaki – Sam > Lib
TJ – Court > Sam in 11
Kwanak – Cout > Sam

710 – turn 6
Palace jump income goes to +83 and will improve. I continue moving/shuffling troops to cover eastern front. The sam pair are sitting on a patch of forest next to Koromositu. I’m switching to walls. I put another sam in there too to discourage them and switch Kokomo, 2 tiles away, to walls due next turn wasting 3s.
I have a plan. With Gogo signed to MPP with Takada I think I can get an MPP with them next turn when I make metal deal for physics. I declare on Korea and “shazam” Takada takes their aggression across the seas. We’ll, of course send a complimentary force towards their land on a junk bound to nowhere. Well lets see, 106 for an embassy 1st.
Kaesong- 15spt, in anarchy because they got democracy, all the buildings you want up to cath, coliseum and bank. Smiths with far to little shields in box to make it. 6 lux, 4 defenders and a pult. WTF. I can’t MPP with them. Or with Mori, only Takada. Am I missing something? Civlopedia gives no clue.
My eye is on sam pair with fingers crossed. If they attack we will have the Han and Gogo coming to visit us. I’m afraid that is Takada plan. Devious. Well, here goes.

IBT – the pair move further in country next to a worker working. They could have snagged him. Will have to cover workers. Mori on our hill moves back to his country and I send a Sam out to cover hill.
Metal comes in > MT in 8 at current sci. Will look later at improving later.
Moriyama-ku – Temple > Cannon
Kokomo - Walls > Worker

720 – turn 7
Damn, metal to Gogo for Physics and he still wants 230gpt, wooland wine. No deal. Everyone has it but Baekje. WTF. I think rep is blown. If there was someone besides the broke Baekje I might do it. Looks like pointy stick in 8 turns. Mori does not have MT. Still can’t MPP with anyone but Takada. Embassy in Choso for 61.
Bachs in 18. All the build goodies with 8 luxes. 4 defenders I can’t ID and 2 workers, 17 spt. Still annoyed. I feel like a guy who stinks and doesn’t know it. Nobody wants to deal with me. Makes me want to ……. KILL. Whoops, was I typing that. Back to the game. Saltpeter on Kuki Isle finally hooks up. Will rush harbor when I get the cash. Wonder who needs some. No one. Bummer.
Well, checking in with the drunken sams from Mori I cover the workers and put another Sam in Kokomo. Rush Temple in Kasugai for 32g to hopefully complete the happiness upgrades planned at turn 2. Azuchi is again the only trouble spot. It’s not pleasant when a major city riots so it switches to Cathedral in 2. Our future city Niimi has another 1 tile bite taken out of it and Moriyama-ku expands in 4. It will flip.

Diplo – Blows. Gogo won’t even buy lux. Forget them guys.
F1 as noted above.

IBT – Those drunks make me laugh. I figured it out. That snow capped mountain on the real Japan map is Mt. Fuji. They must have had a bet on who could climb it first because one made it up, other movement happens and then the other went up.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4-730-deal.jpg

Kasugai – Temple > Sam
New Nagoya – Temple > Library, chop coming.
Palace gets the roof.
Koreans building Shakes
Shimazu city in our land gets a 2 tile bite taken from it. Flipping time!

730AD – turn 8
Well, we have a few more entertainers but lux at zero and gpt now +129. Shuffle a load of tiles to decrease builds and grow one city. Workers doing their thing
Diplo – Sliders back. Well now Gogo will give physics if we give him wool, wine and 210gpt and metallurgy. Has the world gone mad. I wonder if you bite the bullet on one tough deal if your credit improves. Am I wrong in thinking this pricing is way out of whack? Well, back to the saki drinking samurai show.

IBT – They are heading further in country going home. Some culture expansions no flips yet.
Azuchi – Cath > Sam
Yok Revenge – Temple > worker
Tanabe – Junk > Aquaduct
Handa – Lib > Sam, wanting a temple though
Komaki – Lib > Aquaduct

740AD – turn 9
Swapped Kasugai / Susuka tiles to get Susuka sam in 3. Kasugai is 17 now but it was 9. Swap back after build. Need to chop jungle. Changed a few builds and swapped some more tiles. Koromositu goes to worker to get something out of that 8 pop thieving city

Diplo – Same crap but one thing of note. Kuroda has picked up 2 bucks somewhere. Begging maybe. Gave him banking for WM and his last 16 bucks. Ironic, he gives me all his money with no city to his name so he can try to open a bank. Also I can get an MPP with Choso now. Whats the deal on when they are available?

IBT – Shizuoka – Arque > Temple to grab new irrigation. It’s pop 4.
Morayama-ku – Sam > Sam
New Azuchi – Harbor > Sam

750AD – turn 10
Nothing much. 2 new growths made tax men. Don’t like tax men on productive cities like New Azuchi is now but we’re saving a war chst for upgrades and cash rushes. Also, rep makes us pay cash or through the nose. Hamma matsu is configured with those tax men as stated in turn 1. Kuroda picked up a dollar again drifting at sea. Go figure.
Still in second at 1429, but my careful eye on F1 trying to generate cash and shields was probably detrimental to scoring since it is primarily dependent on happiness for my turns. No grabbing land this time around. Well, MT is due in 4, 3 if we spend the war chest of 280g +106gpt. Going 3 would cost –75gpt. 4 turns we’ll have 700g and can upgrade the defenses too. I think sams > cav are 20g@. Good luck Ted. I doublechecked F1. some workers are ready to do some chops near Tanabe for the aquaduct and then can continue to new core for improvements. I started this at midnight and it is now 9:20. Hope we can get the poity stick moving. We are still average to Mori and they have no cash to upgrade. Should be an advantage there. Flips are coming for sure with new palace and then 4 more cities will be producers and we are #1 in mfg goods. 3 in GNP. That will improve. We will need to soon out produce the competition to supply both fronts. Hopefully if we knock Mori back and get his saltpeter we can transfer to Takada and take his. Well, he has 3 so a triple pronged landing may be in order. 3 musket armys (I’m dreaming would do he trick). One last thing, I metioned it earlier about the sams having 4 defense. It may be wise when upgrading to only upgrade sams near Mori. the sams defending our eastern front should stay defense 4 in case Takada gets a hair up his toosh. We'll defense 4 and can then upgrade for counterstrike offense 6. I would still like to get them occupied elsewhere though, somehow.

The save below

Save 750AD (http://http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4PTW-750AD.SAV)

a space oddity

Dec 04, 2003, 11:59 AM

That all sounds very good, well done. :goodjob:

The link ins't working, so here's a fixed (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4PTW-750AD.SAV) one.. :D

TedJackson

Dec 04, 2003, 12:29 PM

That's it, leave the dirty jobs for Ted, he won't mind :)

Good work on the Palace move and prep :thumbsup:

I'll pick up the save later but I won't play until tomorrow.

Ted

barbslinger

Dec 04, 2003, 12:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by barbslinger
One last thing, I metioned it earlier about the sams having 4 defense. It may be wise when upgrading to only upgrade sams near Mori. the sams defending our eastern front should stay defense 4 in case Takada gets a hair up his toosh. We'll defense 4 and can then upgrade for counterstrike offense 6. I would still like to get them occupied elsewhere though, somehow.

TedJackson

Dec 04, 2003, 12:42 PM

Noted :)

Ted

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 06:43 AM

MB4-750AD

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Tech Report (ignoring optional techs)
Takeda - Physics & Mil Trad (furious, 5gp)
Mori - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Shimazu - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 0gp)
Chosogabe - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, Gogury - up Physiscs - down Metallurgy (polite, 0gp)
Korea - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 34gp)
Han - up Physics & Mil Trad (annoyed, 143gp)
2gp)
Baekje - down(cautious, 27gp)
Kuroda - down Astronomy & Chemistry (furious, 1gp)

Map Trading
Takeda want 151gp
Mori want 179gp
Shimazu want 156gp
Chosogabe want 141gp
Gogury want 154gp
Korea want 185gp
Han want 167gp
Baekje want 2gp - Ah, a starting point at last
Kuroda want 2gp - another candidate

Ongoing Deals
Takeda: none
Mori: none (can probably force them to declare on us)
Shimazu: 15 turns - we give Wool for 20gpt
Chosogabe: 16 turns - we give Wines for 16gpt (also 15 turns we give Dyes for 18gpt)
Gogury: none
Korea: 1 turn - give Wines & Wool for Incense
Han: none
Baekje: none
Kuroda: 10 turns - they give 6gpt for peace

Deals Available (with Research set to nil)
Takeda: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Mori: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Shimazu: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Chosogabe: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Gogury won't trade Physics
Korea: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Han: won't trade Physics or Mil Trad
Baekje: can only afford WM +27gp for Chemistry
Kuroda: can only afford WM + 1gp for Chemistry

All lux deals are exorbitantly priced???

Military Strength
Takeda (Democracy): we are weak
Mori (Democracy): we are average
Shimazu (Democracy): we are strong
Chosogabe (Democracy): we are strong
Gogury (Democracy): we are strong
Korea (Democracy): we are strong
Han (Democracy): we are average
Baekje (Republic): we are strong
Kuroda (Republic): we are strong

Mutual Protection Pacts
Takeda -> Gogury -> Han
The whole world seems to be at peace

Summary
We are in a hole. Behind in tech, faced with three significant opponents (Takeda, Shimazu & Han) and the major powers have Cavalry.

I'm not sure how we ended up in this position but we're going to have to work hard to dig our way out.

We can get to Mil Trad in 2 turns (-121gpt) but that leaves no gold for upgrades. However Lone Scientist research gives us +369gpt. So we could rush now then dawdle while we upgrade.

As far as I can tell the game is probably going to last until the Modern Age. Once Rifles appear then our Cav are going to less effective.

We need to get to Replaceable Parts at the same time as the major powers preferably before. Which brings me to Infrastructure.

We only have 3 Libraries, although 9 more are under construction and no Universities. There are 11 Markets with only 2 under construction and only 1 Bank with 0 under way.

I think it's almost too late to recover the tech pace but it might be worth the attempt.

We could start a phoney war with Takeda but we'd have to be very careful to ensure that the MPP doesn't activate. We could take the Mori lands but we won't gain much benefit from them (and their Iron & Horses are at the Eastern end of their territory).

Chosogabe with a Silk monopoly or Shimazu with Furs and Ivory monopoly - PING The light bulb's just gone off in my head. We're dealing with a luxury monopolies map here! Control the Luxuries and we control the map.

Luxury Monopolies
Oda: none but our continent has Wines, Wool & Dyes monopoly
Takeda: None - same as us
Mori: None - same as us
Shimazu: Furs & Ivory
Chosogabe: Silks
Gogury: None but the continent has Incense, Spices & Gems monopoly
Korea: None as above
Han: Gems monopoly
Baekje: None but as Korea
Kuroda: None but as Korea

Which would seem to make Shimazu, Chosogabe and Han our prime targets!

It's taken me most of the morning just to check and note everything (and finally realise what we're supposed to be doing) so I won't start playing until tomorrow to allow some discussion on how best to proceed.

Ted

a space oddity

Dec 05, 2003, 06:59 AM

Yes, I wasn't sure why we are where we are either, but you got on to something there! The Shimazu look like the prime target but Choso is closer and should be weaker (looking at their land and the number of cities).

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 07:24 AM

Shimazu have 2 lux monopolies vs Chosgabe's 1 and there's 1 turn less for Shimazu left on the ongoing deals :)

We could fill in the time either building infrastructure or exterminating the mainland Mori (bringing us closer to Shimazu) or, even better, both!

It's a drastic change of direction but I feel it's the right one. If we can take Shimazu & Chosogabe in the next 30-40 turns then we'll be much better placed to deal with Takeda & Han.

Ted

a space oddity

Dec 05, 2003, 07:31 AM

It is still a pretty big *if*. Shimazu looks kinda strong to me, and we'll need a good positioned navy to make it happen. If we attack Mori in the mean time they'll move through hostile waters. It also will be hard to get Takeda on our side with the broken MA. It is still a mystery to me how we are going to get them fighting to slow them down enough.

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by a space oddity
It is still a mystery to me how we are going to get them fighting to slow them down enough.
By controlling the luxuries we'll have a better bargaining position and the power to withhold luxuries from the AI.

Just think about all the AI deals that will be broken as we take over those luxuries. The fallout will destroy most AI's rep in one fell swoop :)

Ted

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 07:40 AM

Sorry Space,

Cut & Paste cock-up :) (and it's far too hard to edit in a quote)

Originally posted by a space oddity
It is still a pretty big *if*. Shimazu looks kinda strong to me, and we'll need a good positioned navy to make it happen. If we attack Mori in the mean time they'll move through hostile waters. I understand your viewpoint which is why I put the issue up for discussion.

There are always risks and a downside to any strategy. It depends on whether the benefits are worth the risks :)

Ted

a space oddity

Dec 05, 2003, 08:03 AM

Of course, but it's good to be prepared for the risks and minimise the consequences. We have to use agression to move up in this world, but it's more even than is comfortable so we'll have to move carefully.

denyd

Dec 05, 2003, 11:25 AM

First: :goodjob: to Ted for the situation break down

I agree the Shimazu & Chosogabe conquest plan is an excellant idea. We'll need to beef up the navy before the invasions. Would taking on the Mori (with some Takeda help) be a good idea now? We'll need something to keep the Takeda occupied with if we don't want a two front war. This would give us time to build up some infrastructure. If we were to put 5-6 defensive units in those frontlline eastern cities, we could let the Mori bounce against them while we consolidate our new palace locale. I saw a write up by SirPleib about funneling the opponents troops into a "Valley of Death" (in the Halloween treat game). What we'd want to do is using workers and defensive units create a corridor on non-defensive bonus tiles for Takeda to march his troops through on the way to the Mori. When that war ends, we move are attacking units to the destroy the returning troops in a single turn. That could bring the Takeda back to military parity with us and if we were quick enough we could rout them before they could recover.

I'd also like to find some way to create a dogpile on the Han. I'm concerned they're sitting down there getting stronger every turn while everybody north is chopping each other up.

That's a lot for Ted to do, but I'm sure he's up to it.

:beer:

a space oddity

Dec 05, 2003, 04:51 PM

Like I said before, it will be hard to get an MA with Takeda because we broke the one we had with them agianst Toku. :( Maybe if we hurt them enough Takeda will chip in on his own. Maybe those island cities of the Mori will do the trick. :)

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 05:06 PM

The Takeda are my main worry as they have the production capacity and the location to make life very hard for us :(

The key would seem to be getting someone to go to war with the Gogury (relatively weak) but how do we do that without becoming involved?

Ted

a space oddity

Dec 05, 2003, 05:12 PM

Yes, that's hard. You normally can only entice others to war when you're in it yourself. The only thing I can think of is gifting a city that is in culture battle with the one you'd like them to be at war with. So, the script would be like this: found a city really near Takeda borders and immmiately gift it to a relatively weak civ, like the Gogury. :evil:

TedJackson

Dec 05, 2003, 05:16 PM

You're bad... really bad :evil:

I would never have thought of that :jesus: :D

Ted

denyd

Dec 05, 2003, 05:49 PM

My idea was a little different - try for a MPP with Takeda, then gift a city to Han - get in a war with Han and leave a bait worker on the turf next to the city - the Han take the bait and activate the MPP with Takeda :evil: :spank:

Edit: That might also be a way of keeping Takeda out of the Mori war :D

barbslinger

Dec 05, 2003, 08:02 PM

Looks like we are in quite a pickle. Our first order of business from what I could deduce from my turns is to resolve Takada, friend or foe. The AI giving us a bad rep when Takada knocked out the last city is horrible, but, such is life in CIV. Takada has no where else to look for land EXCEPT US. They will most likely come knocking unless Ted can somehow get them fighting overseas. I still can't figure out why no MPP was available with the Gogo's? If we can't get Takada occupied somewhere else we need MPP's with the likes of Choso, Mori, Shimazu or combos of those. If Takada does come knocking we will have friends to help us. It may be really expensive if Takada comes at us and we have no allies. If we can get a Takada MPP I'm all for going after Mori. I don't think we have anything to offer Takada for one though. Also, with Takada becoming dominent I would much rather have our alliance on our continent vs Takada. 4 civs vs Takada and his 2 overseas buddies than vs. Takada and us vs our home continent. He could end up with the luxs instead. Then where would we be. Facing off with Takada and he will be even stronger and probably have rifles guarding. I really think Takada needs to be weakened and NOW! I vote for getting our 3 home continent civs on our side vs. Takada. That will get Takada's buddies fighting Shimazu in a naval war with Han and Gogo which in turn will soften up our landings in the future. We need Shimazu, Choso, Han and Gogo navys going at it. Spend whats required to get MPP's with Mori, Choso and Shimazu and then prepare for Takada.
On the gift city idea. If we are allowed, I love it. It sounds exploitive. I would use it though after getting the above MPP's.

In conclusion, Good Luck Ted! I did the best I could to ramp up our infrastructure. We still need libraries. this game will go to modern age and I want tanks 1st. In my GOTM game I was waging war vs Han and had knocked out Mori, Toku most Kuroda except 3-4 cities and had Takada on the ropes when spaceship came in. Choso, Shimazu minded their own business and never got off their islands. That was months ago and I was a relative newbie then. We need longterm thinking here and diplomacy in alliances is key. Takada need to be put in check.

mad-bax

Dec 06, 2003, 04:13 PM

Can I have your 750AD score please guys.

Cheers :)

a space oddity

Dec 06, 2003, 04:18 PM

MB: the save is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4PTW-750AD.SAV) :)

edit: err, perhaps I should read before I write.. :rolleyes:

barbslinger

Dec 06, 2003, 11:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by barbslinger
[B]700AD – turn 5
Still in second at 1429,

Mad-Bax, sorry about the score. I remembered but then added on a lot of commentery after.

barbslinger

Dec 06, 2003, 11:18 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by barbslinger
[B]
Still in second at 1429,

Mad-Bax, sorry about the score. I remembered but then added on a lot of commentery after.

TedJackson

Dec 07, 2003, 04:32 AM

Only managed 5 turns yesterday but I should be able to finish this evening :)

We've Mil Trad & Physics now & should have Magnetism soon. All quiet on the war front.

Ted

Shevek

Dec 07, 2003, 05:20 AM

I am a bit late to chip in as Ted is already playing.
So I keep it to "Excellent analysis, Ted."

I look forward to see your turn log.

TedJackson

Dec 07, 2003, 10:07 AM

After sleeping on it I decide to go into builder mode and try to prepare for the next player's war on Shimazu or Chosogabe. Of course there's the possibility that Mori will declare anyway so I'll investigate Alliances once we've got Cav.

Pre-turn
York Revenge switches to Lib (try to rush ASAP)
Kokomo switches to Temple - this might be a good bait city if we get into conflict with Takeda
Research 100% (2 turns @ -121gpt, 280gp) - see if that swing the balance of power militarily

Press button...
Wines to Chosogabe comes up for renewal - I decline
Naqoya Lib - Bank (increase commerce first)
Owase Walls - Explorer (might be useful to build a pillaging force)
Kumano Walls - Explorer
Koromositu Walls - Explorer
Gogury start Shakespeare's
Korea start Newton's

1 - 760AD
Worker tasks (heading back to our cores where possible)
Some troop movements
Research 90% (Mil Trad this turn)
There might be an opportunity to do a lux deal with Han next turn.
No deals or alliances available

IBT
Incense form Korea for Wines & Wool expires (Korea don't want to renew) - we cannot get them to part with Incense at any price so riots aplenty I'm afraid
Mori demand Dyes - I tell them to take a hike - they back down
Discover Mil Trad - Physics
Most of our major cities riot :(
New Lida Worker - Explorer
Jutsama Worker - Harbour
Mori start Newton's

2 - 770AD
Reduce research to Lone Scientist temporarily
we have 51gp in the bank and are making +316gpt
Looking at the lux trading situation i decide that I don't want to deal with Shimazu or Chosogabe. That leaves:
Gogury with Incense - they want Wool, Dyes + 3gpt
Han with Spices - they want Dyes + 13gpt
Korea - they want Wool, Wines + 17gpt for Incense
I take the Incense from Gogury but this means I no longer have Dyes available for trade with Han (Spices) :(
Spices is now at 42gpt - 10% Luxury tax only costs 40gpt so I pass on this deal (for the present)
Lux 10%

I start the long and arduous task of rationalising all our cities.
Hamamatsu needs Temple rushed then Market (rushed) then churn out Workers forever)
After all that we're making +320gpt :)
Worker tasks
No deals available but I might manage Physics for Mil Trad + some cash next turn from Gogury
Research Lone Scientist

IBT
Hikone Cav - Bank

3 - 780AD
Cav (Hikone) Heads East
Worker tasks
Bugger! Gogury have either researched or traded Mil Trad :(
Sign trade Embargo vs Mori with Takeda
Korea will pay 16gpt for Wines & Wool
Han will sell Spices for Dyes + 19gpt
Sell Wines & Wool to Korea (annoyed) for 16gpt (still annoyed)
Buy Spices from Han (annoyed) for Dyes + 19gpt (cheaper than 10% lux)
We can't get Physics from anyone at any price :(
Looking at the tech options I can get Physics in 4 turns @327gpt (1308gp, -5gpt deficit) or go Lone Scientist and wait to see what the cash buy price is. I decide on the Lone Scientist approach as this will give me a guide on future research spending and I can switch back to self research in 3 or 4 turns if necessary.
Incidentally I couldn't even include WM in any of the deals so our rep is rock bottom.
Lux 0%
Research 0%
Go through all our cities resetting specialists. Yawn :)
Kyoto stays with Lib (cultural pressure)
Hamamatsu stays with Temple - need to do something before turn 8 (growth & happiness) - presently on 2 clowns
Kobe stays with Lib (cultural pressure)
Yok Revenge stays with Lib (Takeda border)
Ise switches to Bank
MM Kukiyama for Market in 2
Koromo switches to Market (growth in 8, Market in 28 so needs rushing)
New Ise switches to Court
MM Suzuka to avoid starvation
Winegaki switches to Court
MM Tanabe to speed Aqueduct
Kitaku switches to Market
Kasugai switches to Court (good commerce potential)
New Hamamatsu switches to HArbour (won't grow without)
TehJay switches to Market (follow with Aqueduct)
Shakasani Switches to Market (Court to follow)
MM New Lida for growth
Toyotomi switches to Market
New Azuchi switches to Market
Moriyama-too switches to Market
New Nagoya stays with Lib (cultural pressure on Sas??o)
Moriyama-ku stays with Lib (cultural pressure on Niimi)
Pressure-1 switches to Lib (cultural pressure)
I chose commerce over science buildings as that gives us most flexibility in the short term.

IBT
Suzuka Cav - Lib
Bejing (Han) builds Smith's
Shimazu, Chosogabe start Bach's, Shakespeare's
Mori start Bach's, Shakespeare's, Newton's
Korea start Bach's, Newton's
Takeda start Bach's, Shakespeare's

4 - 790AD
Worker tasks
Move Cav East
No deal on Physics (741gp)

IBT
Kukiyama Market - Lib
Ogaki Court - Market
Gogury start Bach's, Shakespeare's
Kunamoto (Shimazu) build Shakespeare's
Yatsushiro (Shimazu) build Newton's

5 - 800AD
Worker tasks
Buy Physics from Korea for 926gp (saving almost 400gp over what it would have cost to self research)
Switch research to Magnetism @ Lone Scientist (+382gpt) - the best we could manage ourselves is 5 turns @ 329gpt (1645)

IBT
Azuchi Cav - Bank
Yaizu Cav - Court
Shizuoka Temple - Market
Moriyama-too Market - Cav
The people love me - add some obelisks
Han start Bach's
Han establish embassy with us

6 - 810AD
Worker tasks
Cav head East

IBT
Winegaki Court - Lib
Yokkachi Cav - Market

7 - 820AD
Worker tasks
Looks as if we'll be able to buy ToG next turn - I could get "Close to a deal" this turn

IBT
Gogury want to trade TM - I winkle 5gp out of them
Kyoto Lib - Market (toss up between Market & Aqueduct here)
Ise Bank - Uni
Handa Cav - Court
Toyotomi Market - Harbour

8 - 830AD
Worker tasks
Cav East
Hamamatsu hires Clown
Buy ToG from Korea for WM + 1083gp (would have cost 1645 to research)

IBT
Komaki Aqueduct - Cav
Pressure-1 Lib - Harbour
Yokohama (Takeda) builds Bach's

9 - 840AD
Worker tasks
Cav East
New Azuchi hires taxman
Buy Magnetism from Gogury for ToG + 153gp
Switch research to Steam (in case of a war on two fronts & production bonus)

10 - 850AD
Worker tasks

Notes & save follow...

Ted

TedJackson

Dec 07, 2003, 10:20 AM

Tech Status (ignoring optional techs)
Takeda: up Nationalism & Steam (furious, 0gp)
Mori: level (furious, 8gp)
Shimazu: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 100gp) - we could buy Ivory for WM + 45gpt
Chosogabe: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 5gp) - we could buy Silks for WM + 47gpt
Korea: up Nationalism (annoyed, 566gp)
Gogury: level (polite, 9gp)
Han: up Nationalism & Steam (annoyed, 2852gp)
Baekje: down Chemistry & Navigation (cautious, 8gp)
Kuroda: down Astronomy & Chemistry (furious, 0gp)

Ongoing Deals
Takeda: Embargo vs Mori (13 turns)
Mori: none
Shimazu: they give 20gpt for Wool (5 turns)
Chosogabe: they give 18gpt for Dyes (5 turns)
Korea: they give 16gpt for Wines & Wool (13 turns)
Gogury: they give Incense for Wool, Dyes + 3gpt (12 turns)
Han: they give Spices for Dyes + 19gpt (13 turns)
Baekje: none
Kuroda: they give 6gpt for Peace treaty (expires at end of turn)

Military Strength
Takeda: we are weak (democracy) - but upgrading to Cav will probably change this to average
Mori: we are average
Shimazu: we are average (democracy)
Chosogabe: we are strong :) (democracy)
Korea: we are strong (democracy)
Gogury: we are strong (democracy)
Han: we are average (democracy)
Baekje: we are strong (republic)
Kuroda: we are strong (republic)

Economic & Trade Status
We have 949gp in the bank and an income of +415gpt
Self researching Steam would take 7 turns @ 491gpt (3,437gp), -173gpt. Depending on how fast the other AI research/buy Steam, we should be able to buy in 4/5 turns from Korea who is our favoured trading partner due to location & strength relative to Han.

By trading with Korea & Gogury we strengthen them against the Han and aren't directly improving any of our short term opponents (Takeda, Mori, Shimazu & Chosogabe).

Strategy
I chose builder mode for my turns and that decision is nearing payback time. I chose Markets, followed by Courthouses (where beneficial) to improve our economy first as this will give us some flexibility as we switch over to self research in the medium term. I would hope that the next player would complete this process and then start adding Banks.

I built Libraries where they would exert cultural pressure on the Mori & Shimazu towns encroaching on our territory and the next player can add more Libraries to increase our research & culture.

We need to add in some Universities to our core cites. Having one or two under construction at any one time would seem to be about right.

Trading our way to tech parity seems to be working quite well (see Economic & Trade Status report above) but we'll soon reach the point where we need to switch over to self research.

I'm ashamed that I didn't spot the luxury monopolies earlier as this factor totally changes our military objectives. We should be aiming to control those monopolies as a priority and our future plans should be centred on capturing them as efficiently & quickly as possible.

Chosogabe is our prime military target but the best initial target is at the Eastern end of the island. This approach would require that we dispose of the Mori first and that would take valuable time.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4P-850AD-Eastern.jpg
Assembling a task force to land South of Imabari (Grassland) would seem the fastest way to get started but we will need Cannon (and Arquebusier to defend them) to bring the population down to manageable levels. One approach would be to build the Military Academy and then a couple of armies. Alternatively upgrading existing Otomo and shipping them in large numbers would probably work just as well. For the record Otomo cost 80gp each to upgrade and Agashiru 60gp.

Once we have a secure foothold then we should be able to overwhelm the Chosogabe quite quickly with the right mix of troops (plenty of Cannon & defensive units along with Cav to deliver the final blow :)).

Once we have disposed of the Chosogabe we can turn our attention to the big prize, Shimazu. With two luxury monopolies it really is the jewel in the crown.

In the meantime, of course, there are the Mori & Takeda to consider. Personally, I would just keep the Mori sweet until Shimazu is ours then dispose of them at our leisure.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4P-850AD-Western.jpg
The Takeda are the fly in the ointment. We might be lucky and they won't make any aggressive moves but we need to have a strong defence prepared for them if they turn nasty.

I haven't upgraded any units, preferring to reach tech parity first, so that task is probably best left until we're ready to invade Chosogabe.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MB4P-850AD.zip)

Ted

barbslinger

Dec 07, 2003, 11:03 AM

I learn something everytime I read this forum. Great job on the techs. The libraries I started and your completing will start to help down the line. I agree with your assessment of the situation. Looks like near tech parity soon. We'll have to start peeling some workers off soon to get ready for rails. An E-W line to cover both fronts should be first, then dual core development. That crown jewel will be nice once we lay our hands into it.

TedJackson

Dec 07, 2003, 12:54 PM

Forgot the score :blush:

Firaxis Score: 1598

Ted

Shevek

Dec 07, 2003, 11:54 PM

Got it and will play tonight.
I have no time really now to study the turnlog but hopefully will find some time during luch break.

Shevek

Dec 08, 2003, 03:41 PM

Objectives:
1. Continue Oda Economy Recovery program
2. Start to build up military (cavs/cannons/arquebusiers) for next war
3. Keep Takeda and Mori happy and off our back side

The save looks good and our empire starts to recover from the long wars
MM a few cities (esp. where we cannot grow any further before aquaduct get mm'ed for shields/commerce)
swap Azuchi from bank to court as it looses too much to corruption (bank only increases uncorrupted revenue, I believe)
enter

IT
Kukiyama library -> arqubusier
Nagahama market -> court
Morayama-ku 'duct -> court
Kita-ku market -> court

1. 860 AD
worker moves
steam cannot be bought yet

IT
Azuchi court -> cav
Koromo riots
Suzuka library -> cav
Tanabe 'duct -> market
Kasugai court -> cannon
Kwanaka library -> cannon

2. 870 AD
rush temple in Hamamatzu (24gp)
Koromo gets taxman
Korea, Han, Choso and Shimazo have all now medicine, no deal possible, cannot get steam either

IT
Hamamatzu temple -> library
New Lida explorer -> explorer
Moriyama-ku library -> harbor
Takeda build Universal suffrage
rush harbor in Pressure 1 (64gp)

3. 88 AD
worker moves
Takeda has now obtained medicine as well
buy medicine from Korea for 1745gp
medicine to Gogu for economics, music theory, 6gpt, 45gp
Mori would only offer WM + 15g (they must be close to research it), no trade
cannot get any gpt deal on steam (not even 400gpt would do it)
I guess it was stupid to buy medicine at this point

IT
TehJay market -> cav
Pressure 1 harbor -> cannon kublai
Han and Shimazu building US

4. 890 AD
rush court in Handa (80gp)
rush market in New Azuchi (120gp)
rush harbor in Kuki Isle (84gp), Kuki Isle gets taxman for 1 turn

IT
Nagoya bank -> cav
Kobe library -> arquebusier
Handa court -> cav
Kuki Isle harbor -> temple
New Azuchi market -> cav
Moriyama-too 'duct -> cav
Shimazu have established embassy
Chosogabe and Koreans build US

5. 900 AD
worker moves
I still cannot buy anything for gpt
we make now 457gpt and it is not enough for steam (457gpt + 1036g, all we have, only gets us close to a deal)
I wonder if I should start self research, we could get steam in 6 turns at -135g (cost 3552g)
we are down at least nationalism, steam power, industrialisation
next turn our lux deals with Shimazu and Chosogabe will expire, maybe Shimazu will part with steam with a lux thrown in

Even though nothing much happened the turns take lots of time.
I hope I can finish my turns tomorrow.