*Spoiler2* Gotm25-Mongols - Full Map End of Middle Ages [Archive]

Sandman2003

Nov 10, 2003, 01:03 AM

Civ 1.29f Conquest

Tech remained on minimum (lone scientist) throughout the MAs. So I was going to trade or take tech by force. After becoming a Republic (6 turns of anarchy), my first trades brought me Feudal warlords, Monotheism and Samurai Code so that I could start using all the UUs except Korchin. I shuffled the Swords and the Gospodars around to towns with barracks to enable upgrades to these units and started building military.

At this point in time conquering the Colossus in the AA was starting to pay off big time by pumping up the gpt. Time to start a war and trigger my GA. Russia was showing spears for defence and horses for offence, and their border was too close to my palace and my forbidden palace, so it was tiem to create some Lebensraum. I moved troops into position, and declared honourably on Russia.

Pre-Korchin assualt strategy was to attack first with the Ordu archers with their ability to inflict up to two hp damage. I would typically exhaust their movement allowance on their bomabard attacks. The Bagatur hordes would follow with bombard attacks until either all defenders were redlined or they only had one movement point left. Their final movment point was used to clear the defenders. Turghaut Cavalry provided quick moving defence to protect the stack and newly taken cities. My force wasn't that large but it was enough to move into place and knock over a Russian city every second turn or so. GA triggered early AD.

To avoid the potential of a multi front war I signed ROPs with every tech advanced civ or border civ, leaving me to concentrate on the Russian campaign. My tech position was starting to get a bit critical so I traded excess resources and some WM and cash to pick up Engineering, Invention, Gunpowder, Son Buddhism and Education during the course of this conflict. I got some cash back through on trading to some of the more technically challenged civs. This enabled building Korchin with their lethal bombard. However, I only built four - no upgrade, only one attack per turn, they didn't seem as useful as the other units. I changed the attack strategy so that the Korchin had their one shot bombard on the redlined units just prior to allowing the Bagatur Hordes the chance to finish off the defenders with their last mp.

Meanwhile the Arabs, the Coguryeo and Germany decided to have a go at the poor two city Khazars. Eventually the Khazars were wiped out the Arabs taking one city, the Coruryeo the other.

By this time I had cut the Russians down to a OCC. I got no less than 4 techs plus on going reparations in the peace deal. The sole leader I got from the Russian campaign turned into Leos. I still needed another leader to jump the Palace away from the Forbidden Palace for a more productive economy. So I choose my next target, Rajaputana.

Several turns of peace while I positioned troops for the Rajaputana attack. Rajaputana had some muskets but it was going to be easy to cut off his supply of Saltpeter. However, I still faced cities with up to four muskets each and other lesser defenders. Progress was again about two turns per city - slow but decisive.

During this time I generated my second leader. Now the question was do I do that all important palace jump or pick up Smiths? There were already 4 Civs working on Smiths. I decided cash was all important to me given my lack of scientific buildings, so I traded Saltpeter to the Han for Economics and grabbed Smiths.

Eleven turns into the war with India I had 6 of his 7 cities, but this time I could only force one tech for peace. So I traded first into metallurgy then into MT. After uograding the Ordu archers my military was strong against everybody, but there were outstanding trade arrangements with every potential target - frustrating.

Russian peace came up for renewal - nope, sorry Cathy, goodnight. Finally in 790 AD 5 ROPs came up for renewal. I rewed the Arabs and the Germans (the strongest of the bunch) and said nope to the Coguryeo, Koreans and Khwarizmia. Coguryeo had only five cities, one ex Khazar. So I knocked over the isolated city first then repositioned for the main assualt. That was why it took to 870 AD to knock Coguryeo down to a OCC. I grabbed the last two MA techs in the peace settlement to jump into the IA.

I lead in score and power per F8, so now I really am only worried about being ganged up on in a war or falling too far behind in tech. Plans for IA are to take out Korea and Khawarizmia first. Use leaders or wonder prebuilds to try and get:
a) A palace move
b) Hoovers to outstrip the AI in productivity
c) ToE to be competitive in the tech race.

Only concern is that the Arabs and Germany have an MPP.

bradleyfeanor

Nov 10, 2003, 08:36 AM

Civ3v1.29, Predator

I began by building 2 wanderers and a warrior followed by a granary. Research was on zero. I was astonished to see how fertile our starting area was. Given the food rich map and room to grow, a settler factory was a must and my initial plan of quickly conquering nearby minor tribes was out. I think I was inefficient with my factory: I was producing one settler and warrior each 6 turns. I should have whipped out the pencil and paper to figure out the most efficient build scheme.

Initial strategy plans and thoughts:
Need to buy lots of workers (didn’t happen--in spite of checking for them almost every turn, I only got two in the ancient age).
Early leaders to get GL (I also was unable to get leaders as early as I hoped).
One worry regarding the new units was autorazing cities, but after the mini game I realized it was not as big a concern as I feared.
Take as much as possible as soon as possible, build lots of units to upgrade when Chivalry becomes available and release the horde.
After Gunpowder it is going to be tough on these units.

My first scout went north after doing SirPlebs start move SE/W. He later met Gandhi, Gogury, and Korea. He then went east, meeting Russia, and ended up in the NE arab corner. The second scout went south to the coast, meeting the Kazars, the Magog, and the Kwarizmia. He then traveled west through the Han, Ottomans, and Tokugawa and finally north into Egypt. The third scout traveled straight east then south, meeting the Keltoi and the Germans. That made contact with 14 civs before 2000bc.

I was thrilled to see the horse and iron nearby to the east, and in 2270bc I founded my first city right on the horse. My third city was settled between the NNE wheat and the mountain in 1870bc. In 1700bc the arabs declared war on me because I wouldn’t give in to a demand for 60 gold. I was not very concerned because of their distance (mapmaking was acquired on this turn as well). It was too expensive to get Gandhi or Russia to ally with me, but I did sign several of the larger civs to ROP agreements. The arabs (with 9 cities), keltoi and han were at the top of the power chart at this time, and I was second to last! About 500 years later the arabs finally arrived with warriors, and I had terrible luck loosing several horsemen. However, I did manage to keep a few elites and I promptly brought Gandhi into an alliance with me. I never saw another arab after that. Unfortunately, the Germans won the race for the pyramids in 1325bc (I was building military and not even attempting them), and they built them in distant Berlin.

Trading was phenomenal throughout the ancient age. I stayed at parity with everyone and managed to make a little money on almost every deal. The only research I did was to try for 40 turn gambits on Shamanism and Monarchy. I traded for Shamanism after 15 turns of research. Monarch became available after 30 turns of research, but I decided to finish it on my own. All cites except two built one worker and then military throughout ancient times. Those two were my northern cities near Gandhi: he was encroaching on my territory and I had to build temples to prevent culture flips. Settling worked out moderately well: I was able get a pretty nice RCP of 6 cities at 4-4.5 and three at 8-8.5. The last was built in 875bc, and then my factory switched to workers.

In 1050bc the Mongols entered the middle ages by lucratively trading lit and gold for currency, then currency for construction, and finally trading around construction for a nice profit. What I would never have guessed, however, is that this would be the end of the quick tech pace. Had I known, I would have frantically been researching and building libraries. As it was, only two middle age techs (Monotheism and Feudalism) were discovered in the next millennia.

In 650bc I declared war on the Magog, who had built both the oracle and the colossus, with my little army of 14 swordsmen and 5 horsemen. I had them in two turns, but no leader. I also lost about 6 swordsmen. The Keltoi built the Great Library one turn before my attack in 670bc. I was guessing that the Magog or Gogury would finish it first, but I was incorrect. I probably should have investigated cities. I had a strong suspicion that the Library would be out of my reach until after it became obsolete: too bad I did not attack the Kazars first. I had a three turn revolution to Monarchy in 590bc.

In 290bc I went after the Kazars. They had no wonders and it was probably too late to use them as a staging area against the Keltoi, but I decided their furthest city was still my best choice for a second core. I had hoped to establish a second core long before, but I could not amass enough military. Unfortunately, Turghaut Cavalry finally became available while my army was en route to the frontlines. I had 17 swords, 4 pikes, and 10 horsemen: three Turghauts were quickly catching up to them. I had around 8 wins with elites in this mini-war, but still no leader. I also realized my military was in danger of outpacing my treasury (1200g + 49pt) in terms of upgrades, so I built a round of improvements (one or two in each city--temples, libraries or courthouses). I also turned up research for the first time in the game to hurry along Chivalry (ended up a 10 turn waste of resources). The Keltoi had taken the lead in power at this point (610 points), followed by Egypt, Germany, Arabs, Korea and Russia. My Mongols had climbed to eighth place with 448 points.

In 50ad I traded for Invention, Son Buddhism and Education (and made a little cash). I then upgraded my military(12 horse, 10 bowmen, 10 swordsmen), keeping three elite swordsmen and three horsemen. No leader meant that I could not rush Leonardo, and I could not wait for it. Fortunately, I had enough money because of the lucrative tech trading earlier. My military was not half the size I had hoped for in my pre game planning. However, I did have pikemen for defense in all my cities and I was quickly adding bagatur hordes: 6 were built immediately and 6 more were on the way. In 90ad I had to decide whether to attack the Russians or the Keltoi. Knowing that Education had made the Keltoi’s Great Library useless, it came down to defensive units.

I investigated two of each civs cities and found that the Russians had fewer units plus some spearmen mixed in with pikemen, so I declared on them. In the first three turns of the war I got two leaders. The first built my forbidden palace, the second formed an army of Khorchin—mainly because I did not really have a strong opinion on what to put in it. I am assuming that an army gets no bonuses on bombardment. Anyone form a “bombardment” army? Am I wrong about that? In 300ad I brought the Arabs and the Khwarizmia into an alliance because I wanted them to take Russia’s last two cities and they were closest. I didn’t want to waste time going after those tiny far-off cities because I wanted to turn my attention to Gandhi, but I knew that I would get culture flips if they were not taken. It worked, and in 320ad the Russians were eliminated.

I built Leonardo in 270ad and Bach in 350ad, both the hard way.

In 340ad, Gandhi traded someone for gunpowder. I declared war on the same turn and took his lone source of saltpeter. In 380ad I had eight of Gandhi’s cities and made peace; he had two small cities remaining. In 400ad I declared war and took the only two Goguryeo cities. In 440ad I declared war on the Koreans and took three cities in the first turn. On this turn I began to realize I had a juggernaut on my hands—I am sure most of the elite players realized this long before, but, this was the turn it finally sunk in to my thick head. My armies consisted of 18 ordu archers, 10 Khorchin, 15 hordes, and 30 musket men garrisoning my cities. About five turns prior, I switched all production to musket men and ordu archers because chemistry had been discovered and Military Tradition was not far behind (Ordu Archers upgrade to Cavalry). The Keltoi also marched into my territory with a stack of units, I politely asked them to find a more rural route…but they declared war on me. So, I had the Germans and Khwarizmia ally with me for astronomy and two luxuries, respectively. In 520 I had 13 of the Koreans 14 cities and agreed to end the war. I was praying heavily to the god of culture flips because they were nearly my equal, but their new capitol was over by the Egyptians so I decided to risk it.

At this time the Mongols were at the top of the power chart with 1197. The Egyptians followed with 965 and the Keltoi—my next target—with 957. I was extremely happy at this stage that the Keltoi attacked me first, because from a few mountain-top sentries I could see the Germans and Kwarizmia attacking and softening their border cities.

I took my first Keltoi city in 550ad, but most of my forces were still 1-2 moves away from the front. I was in a rush because the Kwarizmia were waging a far too efficient war against the Keltoi, and I wanted his border cities. In 570ad I finished my own research on Theory of Gravity and traded it around to enter the industrial age. Worried about the Kwarizmia…as soon as someone trades him Theory of Gravity and Magnetism there will be riflemen about. I turned off research to build my treasury back up so I could afford the upgrades to Cavalry when Military Tradition became available.

Sir Bugsy

Nov 10, 2003, 11:41 AM

1.29f http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif

It was my intention to play the Trick or Treat Quick game before I started using the UUs, but the draw of the GOTM was too much, so that plan went by the way side.

I entered the MA around 200 BC or so after capturing the GL from the Khazars. In one turn I went from a backward scientific civ to one of the leaders. I quickly built a barracks in Chimkent and started upgrading my units. I upgraded about 7 swords to Turghaut Cavalry. All my horses to Ordu Archers – about 10 by the time I started the campaign again. I also started building Bagatur Hordes in as many cities as possible.

First a note on the UU’s. The Turghaut Cavalry, while not the best defender, was nice to have since they could keep up with the rapidly moving “Mongol Horde.” I did lose three or four to counter attacks, but when they were paired with a Bagatur Horde or an Ordu Archer, the free shot usually made the difference, and the Turghaut was able to win.

The Ordu Archers and Bagatur Hordes were very effective. Having 3 movement points, and bombardment capability was very nice. I would ride them up to the gates of a city. Bombard the defenders down to 1hp, then attack. They were unstoppable against spears. Pikes were only slightly more effective, and were still working against muskets. Offensive units didn’t have a prayer.

During the first four parts of the MA campaign, I forgot about Korchins. I kept wondering when I was going to get a lethal bombardment. Then I remembered Peanut’s helpful guide that I had downloaded, read up on the Korchins, and started pumping out them out.

Once I figured them out, I would reserve my Korchins for the final portion of a siege. I would have them fire only when the top defender was redlined. This saved a lot of casualities. By keeping track of how many defenders were defending a city I would save some movements on a Bagatur or an Ordu in case the Korchin didn’t take everyone out. Here is where the blitz capability was very nice, getting up to three attacks out of a Bagatur was very nice. This also lead to more elites. Since I was using the Korchins for lethal bombard, I didn’t get as many leaders.

The MA campaigns: First, I quickly finished off the Khazars. Left a minimal defense and then racing across my territory to take on the Gogury. The three movement points were very nice here. My plan was to reduce my huge front, essentially 330 degrees (since I had secured the Magog shoreline in the AA), down to at least 180 degrees. The plan was Gogury, Korea, Gandhi, then Cathy.

The Gogury were the toughest of the four. Taking two turns to bombard down both of their cities. I also generated my first leader against them, with which I hurried Sun-Tzu’s. The Koreans folded like a stack of cards. Within 10-12 turns they were reduced to a settler in a boat. Gandhi didn’t put up much more fight, and he was gone in 15-17 turns (sorry, I’m going off the histograph here.) Cathy was done in 10-12 also. I got my second leader in capturing St Petersburg. I used him to build the FP right there. In Hindsight, I should have built the FP in a more central location, but I thought I would have conquered the Arab peninsula quickly too.

The Koreans settled North of Gandhi on the tip of a peninsula. There was an Arab city protecting them from my hordes.

I consolidated my forces and started in on the Arabs, having taken two cities when Brennus decided to sneak attack one of my poorly defending cities in the south. I diverted two newly build hordes. Sued for peace with the Arabs and brought a dog-pile on the Kelts. The 3 movement points again served well and I was able to rapidly shift my forces from the Arabian front to the Keltic front. X-man grabbed one city, Bismark another, and the Mongol horde all the rest. I remember reading in an SG somewhere that if you put a MA in with a peace treaty, you have to renegotiate the peace at the end of the 20 turns. If the MA is broken for whatever reason, the war is back on. I didn't want this until I was ready. So, after I had Brennus down to one city, I surrounded it and waited out the 20 turns. I renegotiated the peace treaty, and wiped out Brennus.

Another note. Sometime in this war I got my third leader and formed an army with him. I placed two elite* Hordes and a vet horde in the army, and then I noticed that they lose their bombardment capability in the army. The blitz portion was nice, but the hordes were not as effective.

I had just gotten Mil Tradition and started building cavs. Shortly thereafter, Cleo planted three knights next to one of my former Magog cities. I couldn’t get a strong enough force there in time and on the sneak attack I lost the city. I brought in everyone but the Arabs, Germans and X-man in on MAs. I signed the Arabs and X-man to MPPs (they were both in the IA by now) I retook the city with a strong enough force to hold it this time. When Cleo tried to capture the city a second time, the dog-pile was complete. While everyone was rushing off to get a piece of Cleo, I conquered backward Germany. While their first counterattack sparked the MPPs again, neither X-man nor the Arabs could get enough force there in time to capture a German city. As I entered the IA around 1000 AD, I was over two-thirds to domination.

Alweth

Nov 10, 2003, 08:11 PM

Civ 1.29f, Open

I was pulverized in 510 AD. I was struggling the whole game--it took me way longer than it should have to even get my second city. And to make matters worse, half the civilizations seemed inclined to pick on the little guy. By the end, three other civilizations were competing to see which one could take my capital first.

This was my first attempt at playing anything more difficult than regent solo, and apparently I still need to work on my skills a little.

I hope this post is appropriate for this thread.

Kaiser_Berger

Nov 10, 2003, 10:07 PM

[ptw] 1.27 Open Class

After capturing the GL from the Magog in 50 BC, I was catapulted into the position of being a tech leader with all the techs required to construct my horde. I also chose this time to revolt to monarchy.

After finishing off the Magog, I set my eyes on the Khazars who had built the Pyramids. My first successful attack by a Bagatur Horde gave me a GA in 30 AD. The Khazars also fell fairly fast, and I used my GA to amasss my horde. Once my GA was finished, I sent my Horde south to attack the Khwarizmia. The hordes sliced on through, and the Khwarizmia were soon history. During this conflict, I got the most important of my GL's in 250 AD, which I used to rush a FP in their territory. I also had another in 290 that I used to rush Bach's to help my happiness.

After that the Han were the next obvious target. Again, the hordes worked their wonders. I got two more GL's in 360 and 390, used for an army and then the Heroic Epic respectivly.

By this time Egypt, the Ottomans, and others were entering the IA. It was also around this time I managed to get to Military Tradition, the only research I did the whole age. Cavalry began to supplement the Horde at this point, but did not yet take over the main load of duty.

When I attacked the Ottomans, I got the scart suprise of a couple Sipahi attacking the Horde. This didn't last long, and they were rolled over also. GL's were earned in 450 and 460 and were used for two cavalry armies.

After the Ottomans, I quickly disposed of the Tokugawa, who were even further behind in tech than myself. Egypt had a military that could have sliced mine to pieces, so the Hordes turned back at this point and decided to go after Gandhi, who had made the foolish error of signing an MA against me with the Tokugawa.

They were rolled over quite quickly as well, providing minimal resistance. By this point cavalry were taking over the roll of main offensive weapon. I generated one leader in 680 and he created an army.

I quickly went for the Gogury, but ended up at war with the Koreans as well due to a MPP. This was nothing of great substance, as the Gogury were rolled over easily anyway. This did, however, pose a problem when Korea also signed an MPP with Egypt. I remedied the situation by paying big gpt to Egypt for an MPP myself, and when Korea attacked, their MPP was cancelled. I then proceeded to carve through Korean riflemen and eventually eliminated them. I got yet another leader in 770 AD which I used to rush the Pentagon.

At this point I was spenind all my money on rushing cavalry to send to the front. I quickly had an army of 40 cavalry and 5-6 cav armies on the Celtic border. I stormed into Celtic territory, taking nearly their entire civ in a matter of turns. At this point I was still around 100-200 tiles from domination. I decided to gather my strenght once more and make a fnial push into Germany. This war was successful, although I knew I could not hold my land long. Thankfully, the temples I had been buying plus the new territory paid off in 1110 AD with a Domination victory. During the last two wars, I got leaders in 900(2), 940, 950, and 1080. All were used for armies.

In the end, this was a great game. It was thrilling at the end, pushing as far as I could with my MA army, while Egypt was marching Infantry through my territory.

Firaxis score: 8069

bradleyfeanor

Nov 11, 2003, 08:25 AM

Civ3v1.29, Predator

Anyone else noticing that PTW players seem to have gotten many more workers than civ vanilla players in this GOTM?

samildanach

Nov 11, 2003, 12:10 PM

PTW 1.27f Open
I was looking in the Art unit folders and noticed one entitled "Golden Horde". I was wondering if this unit was part of the GOTM and if it came available if you conquered Russia - I didn't notice it if did. Or is it an army made of horde units - I didn't actually make an army during this game. I did intend to but inadvertently rushed a poxy library instead.
In order I attacked the Rajputs shortly after the QSC period leaving them with just one city in the desert. I then attacked the Arabs taking two cities from them before extorting some techs off them in a peace deal. In the meantime I had been busy preparing for a mass upgrade to UUs back at the pleasure dome. I upgraded, signed an ROP with the Gogury and attacked the Koreans with a view to establishing the FP in Korean lands. This war was extremely slow going as I got used to using the new units and had only taken two of the Koreans core cities by 10 AD. Finally I did them in but frustrated by the slowness of the war I ROP raped the Gogury on the way back, and then attacked the Russians leaving them with a couple of desert cities. Then up to have at the Arabs again who had been busy with Ansers taking out the Germans. I relieved the Arabs of their homelands allowing them to keep their German possessions while the horde amused themselves with the celts. This brought me up to the industrial age which the horde entered in 810 AD. Somewhere along the line the horde were implicated in the demise of a number of other civs the Magog, the Khazars and the Tokegawa - an assertion vigourously denied by the Great Khans descendents even though the piles of ears reported by visiting Han traders of the time were viewed as somewhat incriminating.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SamGOTM25a.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SamGOTM25b.jpg

samildanach

Nov 11, 2003, 04:18 PM

I did of course make a cavalry army, as you can see my army guy in the screen shot, so as to punch out the rifleman defenders which were beginning to appear but I didn't make any horde armies. Apart from the FP, the library:( , the army and Leonardos I used most of my GLs on rushing banks in my core cities to fund temple building in captured cities.

cracker

Nov 12, 2003, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Alweth
...This was my first attempt at playing anything more difficult than regent solo, and apparently I still need to work on my skills a little....

Alweth, you still deserve major kudos for reaching to play at a higher level where the game will give you lots more fun stuff to do.

Just look around you in these discussion threads and you will find it hard not to find tips and tricks that will give you the secrets of success in almost no time.

The discussion in Spoiler thread#1 between Sirpleb, JustusII and other players about the importance of early settlers, granaries, and expansion is just one example of such pearls of wisdom.

Keep trying, Keep playing, and look to find the fun elements in how your game quickly will improve to new levels.

Tech Step

Nov 12, 2003, 01:21 PM

Version = PTW
Class = Open

As previously discussed my strategy was to build 4 -> 5 major cities and use them to churn out the hordes, korchen and eventually cavalry. Things went according to plan and by the end of the Middle ages I was starting to move up the power ladder. The Ottomans are easily the most powerfull covering over 2/5 of the Landmass. They are ahead on techs but I think that I can use the Egyptians to ally with and attack the ottomans on two fronts. (When Tanks become available.)

On Cavalry -> It seems to me that the best players are usually finishing their game by the time cavalry appears, or use cavalry to seal the victory. For some reason I can not build them fast enough to get the numbers to overwheal my opponents.

From many of the posts it appears that a common trait is to build lots or warriors and upgrade them. I would appreciate an explination to the benefits of this as I have never gone that route, warriors/Swordmen are too slow, they do not move around the board fast enough. (IMHO)

In this game especially where you are surrounded by enemies you need a mobile army that can guard your long borders?

Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.

I want to beat my computer.

LKendter

Nov 13, 2003, 04:33 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg v1.27f
Ancient age to 800 BC -
The phony Gogury war continues until I sign a peace treaty. The Koreans destroy them eventually.

Ancient age to 590 BC -
The Han war continues. The war ends due to the fact that I simply can't afford too many ongoing wars.

Ancient age to 310 BC -
The first Arab war continues. I get a big break when Egypt declares war on the Arabs in 350BC. This lets me get a cheap peace treaty.

975 BC - I am now broke; as I let the barbs ransack Darhan to get it over with as quickly as possible. I begin to search for any sales to rebuild my cash as I am in the process of connecting the iron to at least upgrade the warriors to swordsman.

900 BC -
My hope to be the first to Monarchy fails with just 8 turns to go. The tech pace continues to be brutal as the first row of MA techs is already filled.

630 BC to 470 BC
The first Tokugawa war begins when he allies with Arabia. No blood is shed during this phony war.

210 BC to 70BC
Another war with the Arabs begins as they cross into my territory. A few token forces are killed.

110 AD - The Mongol hordes have arrived as we gain Invention. I also get gunpowder and find out the AI already have Chemistry this early.

150 AD to 340 AD
The war with the Magog begins. I want that patch of Silks and the Colossus. The golden age of the Mongols is here. We get out first leader - Ogodei - who rushes Bach's Cathedral.

380 AD to 490 AD
The Korean War begins. We get our 2nd leader via lethal bombardment - who gets to move the palace. This will finally let the fp cover several cities. I normally prefer to go for the complete kill, but with the tech problems I sign peace to get Metallurgy, Physics, Navigation and Banking leaving Korea a size one rubble city.

430 AD - Egypt, Celts, Arabia and additional civs have entered the Industrial age. I am still several techs away. I can't remember the last time I saw the AI go industrial this early.

500 AD - The purchase of Theory of Gravity nails me big time as all my production switches to steppe settlers. I am forced to buy military tradition to keep building military. The primary era of the horde ends having destroyed one civ, and crippled one. I then buy Magnetism and join the Industrial Age.

Besides the insane tech pace - I believe because of 14 civs on standard - the world has been very bloody. Almost every AI is at war with somebody. This is the one things working well for me. The AI pretty much stalemating each other, but all of their production is being wasted on military. I have been able to sneak in at least some infrastructure.

My big worry going into the Industrial age is too small of territory to insure the need resources for the next era.

jordanandsteph

Nov 14, 2003, 10:41 AM

PTW OPEN

I'm not the only one to notice the insane tech pace. I managed to maintain parity thru the AA, but then started to fall way behind. Are most of you keeping up with techs thru conquests? Even when I war, the losers aren't that willing to give up any techs when i sue for peace. Any advice appreciated.

samildanach

Nov 14, 2003, 11:17 AM

The AIs seem to get more ameinable to handing over techs the more cities you take off them - if you leave them with just one they'll usually cough everything you want up. If they won't cough up you should still be able to get a tech at a discount price - choose one that has some trade value so that you can pick up techs from other AI civs that are off the tech pace. I don't know how important it is to honour your peace treaties - by the end of the MA I had broken several peace treaties and it seemed that I was having to sweeten the pill with more and more gold to get my filthy paws on techs. It could be that there is only a certain value the AIs will attach to peace and that the cost of the late MA techs excedes this value.

LKendter

Nov 14, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by samildanach
It could be that there is only a certain value the AIs will attach to peace and that the cost of the late MA techs excedes this value.

The key is how much damage you do to the AI. I shreded Korea to just one city and got - Metallurgy, Physics, Navigation and Banking. That is 3 late required late age techs.

Offa

Nov 14, 2003, 07:15 PM

ptw 1.21 predator

I am disappointed to report that I have qualified for this thread without finishing the game. I bought my way to the industrial age in 850ad while still finishing off the Celts. I just wasted 2000g trying to steal ToG from the Persians so bought it from the Egyptians instead.

I thought the special units looked great and were very effective if you caught the AI in the open, but it was very slow work attacking cities which were mostly defended by muskets in my game. I was very tired of hearing about bombardment failure and I wish I had pressed on to cavalry earlier. Instead I stopped research apart from with a pointy stick once I had chivalry. I much preferred the ansar warriors of gotm23.

Tone

Nov 15, 2003, 07:46 AM

PtW1.27 open

Although I kept up with the other civs during the first stage, I researched monarchy on 40 turns which left me well behind the pace setters (Arabia and Ottomans). I bought/traded the techs required for the UUs and then finally went about conducting a few wars and learning how to use the fantastic new units.

The plan was to use the Ordus to redline anything that got in my way, Turghaut to give some mobile protection, Korchins to attempt to finish off tough defenders and the Bagaturs would get blitz promotions and get a few GLs. I got stacks of elite units but it took ages to get a GL though!:mad: I also agree with Offa: great units, but I was sometimes left wishing for a couple of knights when my stacks of Ordu's were getting nowhere against tough defenders. (I did find them more effective when backed up with cavalry late on though so I decided to keep a large stack rather than upgrade the lot.)

However I had more luck with taking the AI's wonders. I first rolled over two of the minor civs who had been kind enough to leave Colossus, The Pyramids and The Great Library. Very useful!

Just after I took the GL from the Gogary, the Koreans were stupid enough to build Leo's on a border town right where the main body of my troops was so I took that a few turns later. After that I took Sistine from the Indians, although that wasn't so useful as I only had a couple of cathederals. I left India a couple of towns and took magnatism which took me into the IA in 640AD. I still learning how to do pointy stick research and I don't like being to far behind the other civs at this stage in the game. I was therefore a little worried as the Arabs had started to build Universal Sufferage and I had no research capacity to catch up.:cry:

Auk

Nov 15, 2003, 08:39 AM

I am a Doofus and will not forget to post my game version again (repeat x100)

Open - vanilla civ 1.29f

This being Ghenghis's first GOTM effort he enters the middle ages well behind other rival Mongol warlords after capturing the Great Library from the Khazars in 690 BC. Ghenghis is shocked to find that animal skins are no longer the preferred costume for the well dressed leader, and vows to destroy all the ruff-wearing dandies that he is now coming across :-). At this point Ghenghis has 14 towns, and has killed off the Magog.

Ghenghis quickly polishes off the Khazars, during which his first GL pops up! In a fit of indecision Ghenghis leaves him hanging around for quite a while, he's planning on building the FP in his second city and then doing a FPJ over to the old Khazar capital.

Eventually Ghenghis changes his mind and rushes the FP in Chemkint instead, and starts building the sistene, planning to change over to Leos once he gets invention. Ghenghis then actually read the stats on the new units and realises that they can’t be upgraded to cavalry. Also, he decides that the Bagatur horde is going to be his main unit, which has to be built from scratch … meaning that Leos is pretty pointless.. His planned strategy of upgrading/disconnecting resources also goes out of the window. D’oh!

690 - 190BC – There is a long period of peace while ghenghis waits for Samurai code to pop out of the GL. He spends it consolidating. With UU’s in place, Ghenghis kicks off a long period of unrestrained warfare by wiping out the Gogureyo. He starts pumping out a mixture of units (but mainly BH).

30 –230 AD – The Korean War – Ghenghis suffers the first culture flip of the game. These will be a constant threat due to his pathetic lack of temples/libraries.

250-300 AD – Ghenghis puts the Russians out of their misery (they’d been beaten up pretty badly by the Arabs)

For some reason, the Arabs then went to war with the Ottomans, and for most of the medieval age were occupied with this. Although Ghenghis would usually have treated the Cataphracts using his empire as a highway as a mortal insult, he is happy to let them have their fun as long as they leave him alone. This was the second huge piece of luck I had in this game, since it meant that I was pretty much given a free hand to loot and pillage as I desired.

310 AD- 570 AD – Keltoi/German wars. Ghenghis would have liked to have fought these one at a time, but unfortunately presses the wrong response while responding to a german withdrawal demand due to trying to eat an apple and not looking at the screen. Oops. This gives Ghenghis' troops their first proper fight, where they show how lethal their bombard abilities are. During these wars we get the first sneak attack from the Khawazarhim. This is dealt with easily and they are marked down to be the next to go down….

630 AD- 680 AD – Kharazarhim wars. By this time Ghenghis' forces are getting overwhelmingly large – with no vulnerable borders apart from the Arabic one, he can focus all forces on conquest.

720 AD-beginning of Chinese wars. Several armies prove particularly useful here, especially as the Horde is now facing musketeers. During this war, while fiddling around with diplomacy Ghenghis find that the Arabs will give me a cheap MPP. (He's well behind the other big Civs in terms of science now.) I reckon that I can get a domination victory without having to fight them at all… so Ghenghis joins forces. Since he's been thoroughly untrustworthy and bloodthirsty throughout the game I’m not entirely sure what the Arabs are playing at here, but I’m not complaining! In 790 AD Ghenghis breathes a sigh of relief as he is able to change into a nice suit and enters the IA. Ghenghis is by far the score/power leader - only the Togukawa and Egyptians remain to resist the Mongol/Arab alliance...

Well it shouldn’t take too long to wrap this one up. The Togukawa and Egyptians are likely to have riflemen and culture flips could cause problems, but with the Arabs on my side, things will be a lot easier. By this time my cavalry are beginning to come online, but with the distance between my core cities and the front line, the UU’s are still bearing the brunt of the fighting.

I could probably have won by now if I had been confident enough to pursue multiple front wars. My main problem has been horrible empire planning - no RCP (which I've only just learnt about) and a generally inefficient use of the Palace and FP resulted in a Manufacturing output drastically below what it should have been...

Generally i really enjoyed this game - the UU's were great - I wish I'd used the lethal bombard of the Khorchin a lot more though - I only found out about these far too late :-( I played it too quickly. ... Thankfully I then found all the old GOTM's which I have been having fun with. (found GOTM 24_Korea a right struggle...)

samildanach

Nov 15, 2003, 11:23 PM

Hmmm.. this is only the twentieth post so far in this thread. And I have accounted for 20 % of them. There were 62 by the same stage in last months GOTM. People have probably been absorbed with conquests -its time to remind the dumb saps that there is a tournament to compete in with a Cracker front page media blitz in my humble opinion.
Or are people being put off by all the notices of bugs and fixes for this GoTM - if everything has been resolved I think all those threads should be deleted most especially the one containing the monument to my stupidity. I think it is the thread entitled "Inarticulate Ramblings of the Deluded".

Hurricane

Nov 16, 2003, 09:15 AM

Civ 3 v1.29f, OPEN

I had taken out the lesser civs with Swordsmen during the Ancient Age, but when I got my UU:s I really started fighting. My plan was simple: stay in Monarchy, keep taxes at 100% and expand in all directions. My core cities built Ordo Achers and Bagatur Hordes from scratch, while the cities in the periphery built workers and settlers.

After I secured the Korean peninsula and later the Arab peninsula, I pillaged the terrain so that only one road led into them. I then pillaged and re-built that road every once in a while, so that every city on these peninsulas could build Arhers (@ 20 turns) which I then upgraded to Korchins for 30 gold each.

I really liked the Ordo Archers. Their 2 FP 4 strength bombardment seemed to be more effective than the Bagaturs' 1 FP 6 strength. I usually had a big stack of Ordos redlining the defenders, then taking them out with Hordes and Korchins. I only suffered small losses. I tried the lethal bombardment a couple of times, but never had any luck with it. I got 9 leaders (Sun Tzu, FP, Palace, Leo's, Army, JS Bach, Magellan, Army, Army).

My money was mainly used to rush temples mostly in coastal cities to expand my territory (like I said earlier, upgrading was small-scale and cheap). Except for temples, I only had a couple of Marketplaces and Harbors, and one granary in Karakorum. I did build some Aqueducts, but not many.

The tech pace was not as fast as others have mentioned, probably because most were at war all the time, and some taken out at an early stage. The AI didn't even discover Metallurgy before I won. I myself didn't even have Democracy or Physics. I never planned to upgrade to Cavalry.

I reached domination in 680 ad, for 9962 Firaxis points.

This map shows my expansion:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/end-map-hurricane.jpg

This map shows my core cities which all built units, and the two Archer-building peninsulas.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/strategic-map.jpg

bradleyfeanor

Nov 16, 2003, 05:47 PM

Samildanach: If they are intimidated by the "bugs and fixes" in this GOTM, then Conquests will leave them in tears! It's a corruption nightmare.

Great game Hurricane, the earliest win yet.

samildanach

Nov 16, 2003, 06:42 PM

Really! I haven't bought conquests yet Bradley -I was assuming that it was going to be pretty polished product. As they had recruited some good players this time to do the play testing not just the numbskulls who did PTW. Maybe now that its been a week or two they'll start returning cap in hand to the GoTM.

Likewise Great game Hurricane - The archer trick was nice.

Hammurodi

Nov 17, 2003, 06:41 AM

Hi,

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/TreasureSurrender.gif

First things first: This is my first submitted GOTM, I had played greeks and Koreans as a warmup and of course used the Halloween treat to good effect.

I played PTW1.27f Conquest.

I truly enjoyed this game, the GOTM is fantastic. Thanks guys!
It also forced me to adopt a completely different style of play, I usually don't have a lot of time to play, so I prefer lower difficulties, and I tend to research, build, go to war for specific reasons, but usually stop if I am confident I'll make it to the spaceship first. Here with the uniques it was clear that if I get out of the middle ages before winning I'm in trouble. So all my research plans were to get the Samurai code quickly, but then try to stay in MA as long as possible. Usually I manage to delay the AI by extorting gpt, but they did not like to enter those for some reason.

One other plan was (after I knew the lay of the land) to try and set the Egyptians, Ottomans, Tokugawa and Han against each other, and make war on all others (one at a time) myself. This failed, as the western half of the continent loved each other dearly, and I only managed to bring them into the war when I attacked the Han in the last and final push.

I also was unaccustomed to keeping a commentary, so there are a few gaps and some entries try to guess when in the previous turns something happened. I may have gotten a few dates wriong this way, and I'm not at all sure when I actually entered the MA. According to my power graph, the distinct kink around 700BC would
indicate the appearance of Bagaturs (my main force).

In 1000 BC I only had 7 cities, but was starting to accelerate settler production, so according to comments made somewhere else, I was on the low side. Still managed to win, though.

With extremely few exceptions (walls here and there, few early barracks and a colosseum and library in Karaokum) I never built anything but temples to fill out the land and lots and lots of units. Many got rushed, (See comment in the timeline below), but mostly the conquered territories were just that. I dithered a LONG time before I finally founded a city that would house the forbidden Palace, I couldn't see me put a second center near a desert. It finally came in the Khwaramizam (Never can remember, light green) territories in the south, but was not really all that useful by that time.

Here's my timeline (posted in one go, so it's a bit long. Sorry):

4000 BC: My son Temujin is today come of age, and I can pass
the reins of power to him. The lad shows
promise. He founded his city in the vinyards of his
youth and sent out scouts.
3700 BC: Met the Khazars to the southeast. We traded
knowledge Wheel and Ceremonial Burial for
Terracotta and Martial Arts.
3650 BC: The Rajaputans are to the north. They know an
alphabet and we traded knowledge.
3500 BC: Trade alphabet for bronce working with the
Gregoryeu.
3200 BC: The Magog in the south teach me masonry for wheel
and alphabet.
3100 BC: Meet koreans, but I'm not parting with a tech for 8
gold only.
2950 BC: Meet the Khwarizmians, and give these backward
people 10 gold to make them happy. I must expand!
2900 BC: A russian warrior comes up. I give him 5 gold as a
token of goodwill. Our exploring warrior comes
across an advanced Guzz tribe. Would you know it,
they are so impressed with me that they join my
clan! We have now funded the city of Ta-Tu as a far
province. An arab wanders up to Ta-Tu and I sell
him the wheel for 10 gold.
2430 BC: Finally ran into the Han. This is one big
continent.
2310 BC: Found the Ottomans. Gave me 20 gold for alphabet.
1550 BC: The arabs declared war
1373 BC: The arabs lost a couple of warriors on Ta-Tu's
battlements. When we displayed their heads on
spikes on the walls, they paid 83 gold for peace
with me. They should have done so sooner, my allies
are still advancing on Mecca >:-P
330 BC : I found this old journal in the attic of the
palace, 1000 years old - I might continue. The last
two years have been spent at war with the
Magog. When the City of Sorsam-Hit fell to my
Gospodari I found a large library. My wise men
immediately set to work and unravelled a lot of
secrets, such as engineering, monarchy,
monotheism. They are currently poring over a
section built around a book "samurai code", but it
is still difficult to decipher.

My eye turns northward, the Goguyeu and Koreans sit
in my back yard, with them removed, I could turn my
eye outward!
90 BC : As I attack the harmless Goguyeu, one of my Korchin
warriors inspires my people so much, we have
triggered a golden age!
30 AD : The Goguyeu are no more and my draft of Bagatur
Hordes continues. Soon my power will be felt
throughout the world!
50 AD : The korean war is begun. Onward my horde!
190 AD : PyongYang is mine. And look at that lighthouse by
that colossus, I like big statues. Instead of
taking the last city somewhere else down now, I
shall sue for peace.
280 AD : The Rajaputras sue for piece, and I grant it in
return for Bombay. They have only one city left
now. But an evil omen strikes: As I sign my name to
the treaty our golden age ends. Maybe I should
avoid peace...
330 AD : Those Arabs annoy me. Enroute to them I take the
Khazar out and get the Oracle and the great wall in
return. And finally Ogodei comes through and
becomes the great leader I knew he would become!
350 AD : Abu Bakir comes crawling on his belly to make
peace. He pays dearly for it and I give my troops a
rest. His back is broken, in some years it will be
easy to smash him. Meanwhile a greater prize calls:
Russia. I also use the Khwarizmiar as a light warm
up grounds for my troops before I take on the Celts
and Germans. I will also try to set the Egyptians,
Han, Ottomans and Tokugawa at each other's throats.
420 AD : Karachi defects back to the Ramaputahs. They might
as well have stayed in the folds of the mongol
empire, in 4 turns our peace treaty ends...
440 AD : The Khwarizmiar sue for peace with 4 cities left. I
use this opportunity to catch up on techs. The Han
demand tribute and get it, just wait until I am
done here. Nothing will be forgotten!
560 AD : The Ramaputhas are gone, I turn my eye to the Celts
and Arabs I have started a revolution to get from
Despotism to Monarchy, after rushing about 30
units. This war is like nothing I've ever
experienced.

Note: I had been in Republic most of the time, but
found that with all these conquered unproductive
cities I'd much rather poprush than pay. So I
actually had a 6 turn anarchy to get back to
Despotism just to be able to pump up
production. After all eligible cities were unable
to poprush any more (units mostly, few temples) I
go to monarchy to avoid war weariness. This is an
eye-opener to me, I had not used governments this
agressively in the past. Usually it's Despotism ->
monarchy or sometimes republic -> Democracy).

730 AD : A short skirmish with the Celts straightened the
border and gave me two techs: Metallurgy and
Military tradition. The Arabs get eradicated. I
enter monarchy and pay for a couple of temples to
fill my borders I also finally establish a
forbidden palace. With all this desert this is not
easy. I just declared war on the germans, not to
eradicate them but to get the four cities they have
in my territory and a tech or two. Their first
cities fall ridiculously easily, nothing but
spearmen. I might go further...
740 AD : Finally another great Leader: Jochi!!
750 AD : Jochi built an army, and guess what: Chagatail
steps forward!
Made an expensive alliance with the Celts to attack
the germans (100 gpt) but it is worth it. Berlin
has the pyramids, Lugdunum JS Bachs Cathedral, I
want both, and my armies are ready to step in.
790 AD : Berlin is mine, these Pyramids sure are
impressive. I've also taken Catherine out of her
misery, no more weak russians. I wonder if the
military alliance with the Celts was a mistake.
820 AD : The germans have tried to go behind my back and
captured Mekkah with a spearman - just walked
in. But next turn it was recaptured. I don't want
the expensive MA longer than necessary, so I kill
the germans rather
than peace for tech.
840 AD : The solid germans are gone. I have enough troops
handy to immediately kill the Kelts. So long
suckers.
870 AD : The Kelts are stronger than the germans, and more
advanced. I start to see Riflemen now :( But I got
Lugdunum with JS Bach's Cathedral, that'll make MY
people happy. Such a nice big hall for our horses!
900 AD : The Kelts have one city left and give Physics and
Economics for peace. I'll reattend to them in 20
turns. How can I find out how close I am to
Domination (except tediously count all tiles?)
940 AD : Two chinese cities, one tokugawa, one ottoman in my
territory. But they are all in MPPs and I need some
time to rebuild my armies.
970 AD : I bought a MPP from Tokugawa and Egypt. I will
declare war on Otto and Han in 1000 AD and let them
attack me >:)
990 AD : The Han declared war by themselves and are now at
war with my new allies Toku and Cleo. But Entremont
has flipped back :( 14 more turns on that peace
deal :(
1010 AD: Ottos declare war on me and are now dealing with
Toku and Cleo :)
1020 AD: Richborough flipped back to Celts. I want to cancel peace
NOW (but don't).
1050 AD: Kublai becomes a leader and builds the next army
1080 AD: The solid Han are destroyed. Ottomans are now fully
engaged at both flanks.

1110 AD: Domination victory, 7921 points, Whoohoo! :cool:

pterrok

Nov 17, 2003, 08:44 AM

Civ III 1.29, Open

Well, I got a really late start simply because I bought Korsun Pocket and have hardly been able to stop playing it! If you ever played hex-based board war games, this is a game you must look at!

Anyway, the big thing about Korsun Pocket is that you need to effectively use combined arms tactics to succeed--sound familiar? I never got a chance to play the Halloween Treat warm-up game, so I came into this one cold--but the KP experience stood me in good stead.

Cracker will lash me with a wet noodle for only having 5 cities at the end of the QSC period, but the first war saw me take the city of Chimkent from the Khazars...

Can someone explain to me how a little two-city minor civ ended up with the Pyramids, The Great Wall AND the Great Library all in the same city? After picking that plum it's been roll the hordes --about 10 of each of the 4 horsemen--around the map...Bringing apocalypse to enemies mine!

I've got about half the world now at 510 AD and a few of us are working on Magnetism...

It's been fun--thanks Cracker!

Hurricane

Nov 18, 2003, 12:21 AM

I can think of two reasons. First, the lesser civs were unable to build settlers, so they started building wonders very quickly, giving them a head start against the other civs who were pumping out settlers. Second, the lesser civs had rather numerous armies at the beginning, and that could have tempted them into a war that then gave them a leader or two.

Yndy

Nov 18, 2003, 10:24 PM

ptw v1.27f
Predator class

I have just submitted my domination victory 650 AD, 9540 Firaxis points.

Game was very interesting but went on very slow. I ended up playing 33 hours. I managed to control the tech pace following the middle ages beacause I set every AI to fight others.

I shut down research after reaching Cavalry and started rushing temples. The remaining AI were almost in the industrial ages when I won. I was beginning to fear I would see Riflemen.

CdB

Nov 19, 2003, 09:27 AM

Open - Civ3

Ancient Ages (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1373508#post1373508)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/GOTM25_1000bc.jpg

Middle Ages
I continue my expansion while building Gospodars. I am still searching Feudal Warlords in an attempt to be at monopoly and be able to have good deals. Egypt constructed the Great Lib and they are too far away for me to grab it. I also decide to keep the Gorg and Khazars as civs that could help me wage wars and build wonders.
My first target is Magog than Russia (to build a second core) and than India. I will focus on weak opponents and trying to have war declared and gathering AI to fight.
I will try some gambits on research in order to be able to sell it for lots of cash before the AI swap technology for nothing.

? Germany declares War. Same turns the Arabs do the same to Germany … I bring Gorg with me for Currency
740 BC : I bring Khwa (with embassy & 2 techs to war against Germany … surprisingly , they receive Monotheism at the same time !). I also bring Korea. Germany is also fighting Russia called by Arabs. I am still the last with Arabs & Han in the lead.
630 BC attack Magog and next year win first town Vorskor with all silks
590 BC India : 7 GPT & 48 GP vs Silks. Searching at 100 % now…
450 BC I have just win the Magog Capital … short win with lot of Swords going to join the fight…
370 BC My gamble on Feudal Warlords pays off … So I could at least be back to techs parity. Details of trade is:
Otto : Monotheism vs Feudal Warlords & 110 GP & 29 GPT / Egypt : Engineering vs Feudal Warlords & 4 GPT & 15 GP / India : Son bud & WM & 1 GP vs Feudal & Engineering / Gorg : The Republic & WM & 12 GP vs Son bud / Togu : Monarchy & 9 GPT & WM & 33 GP vs Son bud / Khazar : WM & 9 GPT & 37 GP vs Son Bud / Egypt : WM & 6 GP vs WM / Han : WM & 4 GP vs WM / Russia : WM & 7 GP vs WM / Arabs : WM & 1 GP vs WM / Keltoi : WM & 11 GP vs WM / Egypt : 4 GP vs WM / Khwa : WM & 12 GP vs WM /
I then revolt for Republic since I can manage War Wariness (looking at Sir Pleb article). I am still on the 11th position
310 BC : Gorg : 2 slaves / India : Spices vs Wines & WM & 7 GP
230 BC 5 countries have Education !
210 BC I trade Wines to Arabs for 90 GP & 3 GPT & TM
150 BC: Arabs have invention & I missed the Gambit on Samurai Code by 2 turns. I hate the 5 turns of revolution… :mad: Most this research @ 100 % lost … I go for trading anyway so that I could start building these most needed units to wage wars. I get back to techs parity except that Arabs have Invention. I am still receiving 84 GPT from trades. I even traded Horses to Han. I need the cash to fuel the upgrade of units & research even if I need to face Riders.

Russia War (110 BC – 170 AD)
110 BC : I declare War On Russia with Gorg and Khazars to help me. I have a limited army of 11 Ordus & 7 Turghaut & 2 Elite Swords and I enter my GA. My research is now Astronomy at 10 % because I need cash.
30 BC: My first leader builds the FP in Moscow. In retrospect, I am not sure it was a wise solution. The location was not so great but I needed an extra push using the GA.
10 BC : Han offers Astronomy vs WM & 29 GPT & 658 GP. I then deal back to Egypt Astronomy & WM & 66 GP vs Invention and then I declare War, I will have Ottomans to fight the war for me :D …
170 AD : Just finished with Russia with a late Leader to build Sun Tzu :cool:. I have also make a successful gambit on Banking thus more trading is to follow.
Ottomans : GunPowder & Navigation & WM & 5 GP vs Banking
Arabs : Music Theory & WM & 6 GPT & 182 GP vs Banking
Keltoi : 13 GPT & 25 GP & WM vs Banking
Korea is joining my fight against the Germans
Gorg : Deals Spices vs Astronomy
Khazars : 15 GP & 2 GPT & WM vs Astronomy
I am preparing my next war against India …waiting for my silks deals to end.
Korea : Slave vs WM & 5 GP
Toku : Typo & WM vs Gun

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/GOTM25_170ad.jpg

Indian War (270 AD – 360 AD)
270 AD : I declare War on India with 12 Ordus & 9 Bagatur & 3 Khorcins. I gather Khazars to join my loonnnggg war against Germany for Navigation just to ease my South front.
Keltoi is also to fight Germany. I am not sure if this is wise to give away Economics but it will make them brake a trade with Germany. In this war with India, I will only face 3 elephant and few pikes. So the bombarding Ordus and Warring Hordes are lethal to India.

I just missed the gambit to Economics. I hate this again… I am 2 techs behind after the usual AI techs swapping.
Ott : WM & 16 GP & 4 GPT vs Economics (they made peace with Egypt)
Gorg : WM & 22 GP & 13 GPT vs Banking
Toku : with Economics joins my war effort against Egypt :D
Then I go round to grab some more gold with WM
Han wants Incense for 9 GPT so I can search Democracy at 90% in 8 turns !
Go for Democracy at full speed … another gambit.
290 AD : Renegogiate deals with Han Silks & Wines for 20 GPT only … I am loosing 11 GPT on research.
Korea : I have 1 slave for Invention… I am really giving techs away. I am so short of cash
310 AD : Missed Democracy by 3 turns so much cash wasted … Another leader will build JS Bach in Udaipur the next year
340 AD : I can still exchange Dem to Togu for WM & War against Germany
350 AD : Ott WM & 16 GPT & 35 GP vs Dem.
360 AD : Korea : WM & Slave & 16 GP (all GP) vs Education

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/GOTM25_360ad.jpg

Khwarizmia War (400 AD – 490 AD)
War on Khwa … They are weak, I will face mainly spears, occasional pikes and some Archers. I am now #3 on the ranking behind Arabs & Han. I decided to keep Arabs as my best mates until the end of the game since I prefer to press on soft targets
Keltoi : WM & 6 GPT & 25 GP & Physics vs Democracy
I could trade Metallurgy for Lots of GPT but I hold on and go the Theory of Gravity… Arabs have Magnetism…
440 AD : Han : WM & Enlightment & Magnetism & 26 GP vs Metallurgy
Arabs : WM & 4 GPT & Theory & 4 GPT & 241 GP
I enter to IA without any free techs and Arabs have one that they do not want to trade. I will go for Steam at 100%

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/GOTM25_490ad.jpg

Justus II

Nov 20, 2003, 01:01 AM

http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/ptw.gif 1.27f
Open, Special Mongol Units

Link to Ancient Age Post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1351719#post1351719)

As I entered the Middle Ages, I had finished off the Khazar, and was trying to take the Magog capital, which fell in 630BC, getting me the Lighthouse. I then moved my mostly elite swords to Sorsam, their second city, while still fighting off the weak attacks of the Raja and building my forces. I was rewarded for my patience vs. the Magog as I got Jochi in 530BC, who immediately moved east to rush my Forbidden Palace in the center of the old Khazar lands. He did so in 470BC, and the same turn I got another leader, Chagatai! (These minor civs really were leader factories). I was facing a tough decision. I first wanted to hold him for Leo’s, but I didn’t know how long before Invention would be available, I didn’t even have Engineering yet. I also thought about building an Army->Heroic Epic, hoping to get another leader before Leo’s was completed by anyone else, and with so many units to upgrade, Leo’s was critical. What I was worried about was all the civs who were working on Hanging Gardens or Great Wall cascading to Leo’s as soon as Invention came out. Then it hit me, what if I rushed Hanging Gardens? That would kill the cascade, and give me some useful happiness :) , and also allow my elites to keep going for more leaders! It would also generate some culture, if I built it on a border (near Raja). So I did in 450BC, inadvertently triggering my Golden Age! This worked out well, though, as I was able to ramp up production of Gospodars and start research on Chivalry (6 turns at 90%) instead of waiting for the AI, which probably wouldn’t choose it first anyway. The Arabs completed the Great Wall the next turn, killing the cascade.

I was finally able to trade for Engineering in 370BC when the Han got it, but still needed Monotheism. The next turn Invention was available, which I bought from Korea, and right on schedule Tolui stepped forward from the battles with Raja to build Lui’s Workshop in 310BC. The same turn I completed Samauri code, and the next turn I started upgrading. By then I had nearly 50 units needing to be upgraded (24 gospodar, 18 swords, and 6 bowman), but with no science and in GA, I was bringing in 250+/tn. The GA also helped me crank out Hordes, I tried to set each city to Hordes or Ordu depending on which would waste the least shields. By 250BC the Raja were down to 1 city, and my alliance with Gogu ended, so I made peace and declared on Russia. They were my next target because several of their cities were positioned near my FP. The Ottomans started Sistine, so I knew they had Buddhism. I wanted to slow the tech pace, so I provoked wars, getting a MA with the Celts vs. the Germans and the Han vs. Tokugowa for older techs. I also captured Sorsam in 210BC, eliminating the Magog, capturing the Oracle, and generating Kublai, who formed an army for some of my new Bagatur Hordes. I kept the rest of my Elite swords for a while, but they never could keep up, and I eventually upgraded them to Turghauts. I continued the assault on Russia, taking Moscow and Sevastapol in 190, getting Mongke, who I used for Heroic Epic. By 150BC they were down to 2 cities, I made peace for Minsk, and prepared to continue on into the Arabs.

They were next because they had the Great Library. This was a race, as I couldn’t afford to buy tech and continue upgrades/rushes. I wanted to time it so I could take the GL before Gunpowder, or close to it, so I could see the saltpeter and not fight muskets. The first couple cities were on hills, so they were tough, but then I gathered momentum as more hordes kept arriving. 50BC I took Makkah and the Library. Next turn was the end of my GA, and I got Buddhism, but Gunpowder wasn’t available. As I finished the Arabs off, I did get another leader, Kaidu, for another army. 10AD brought Education and Gunpowder, I barely made it! I could tell that the Germans and Celts had Salt, but not the tech, and the Celts wasn’t even connected yet. I used my ROP to move through the Celts and invade Germany, even though we had been in a phony war for a while, and concentrated on getting the Saltpeter sites first. They went pretty quickly, although Liepzig flipped on me. I actually expected more flips, unlike my usual tactics of rushing temples and strong garrisons, I usually left a couple healing units for a turn or two to quell the resistance, then left them open, and if anything rush settlers to fill gaps. I would rush an occasional temple, again to fill gaps, but most of that was later. Anyway, I generated another leader, for another army. The armies were very effective at taking out red-lined pikes after my Ordu’s had their turn. I tried to run 2 ‘hordes’ of an army, 8-10 Ordu, 5-6 Bagaturs, and 2-3 Khorchin, with 4-5 Turghauts for defense. Of course in practice it was never quite so neat. In particular, if I got lucky and redlined units with only a few Ordu, I would take the city and use roads to move up to the next city and try a quick attack, which worked more often than not. I was able to take 2-3 cities per turn during these wars.

210AD was my turn of treachery, as I finished off the Germans and declared on the Celts. Our alliance had ended, but I forgot the ROP was signed a few turns later, so my rep took a big hit. I had no units in their territory, but they had some in the former German lands, who were toast in the open. I had also kept enough units moving around their Saltpeter site that they never hooked it up, so the worst I faced was Pikes, and mostly spears. The opening turn, I took 4 cities and got 2 leaders, who formed another Army and then rushed the Pentagon in Frankfurt. By 280 the Celts were destroyed, generating 2 more leaders along the way. Conan was used for another army, but I saved Ogodei (cycling through the names again) for Bach’s. I actually paid to research Music Theory for it, and for trade value.

I had declared on the Khwaziri in 260BC, as they were next and had no saltpeter, and I took out their Iron on the first turn as well. (Turghauts are great for pillaging). I got Music in 320, and was able to trade it first to Korea for Chemistry, then Chemistry and Music around for Banking, Astronomy, Navigation, and Typography. I had been avoiding trading techs, as I wanted to stretch out the Age of the Hordes as long as I could, but with so many techs available at once, I took it. Since the AI tech pace seemed to be accelerating, I decided I better make a run at Military Tradition to get there ahead of the Ottomans (I do NOT want to face Sipahi), and started researching Metallurgy. I also rushed Bachs, and took out the last 4 Persian cities, but they must have a settler on a galley (at least 2, actually, as I later killed one and they still survived). I took the next turn to pick off the lone Russian city, and position myself for war with the Han. They had no salt, but appeared to be buying it from the Tokugowa, so I bought the Ottomans into the war to cut the trade route. I still saw 1 or 2 per city, but not too bad. The key to this war, though, was that they had been fighting the Gogu, and I had ROPs with each, so their armies were mostly fighting in my lands, and the Riders were winning. When the ROP came up for renewal in 340 I said no, so in 360 they were sitting ducks on my roads. I killed 9 knights, 4 pikes, a longbow, 2 spears, a musket, and 3 settlers before crossing into their territory. Chagatai II appeared to form yet another army. Even after building the Pentagon, I had kept my armies at 3 Bagaturs, saving the 4th slot in case I got to cavalry, except for one army.

I got to Metallurgy in 410AD, and did not plan to share it, but the next turn the Ottomans, Egypt and Korea all had it. I got 77g from Tokugawa, and made peace with the Han, leaving him with one city on the other side of the Ottomans. I was within 500 tiles of the domination limit, but that would still take a lot. I continued to rush settlers to fill gaps, settling 2-3 towns/turn, but with research on MilTrad at 70%, I was limited on cash. Anyway, I invaded the Ottomans in 420AD, and they did have more Muskets than the Han, it was harder to get to their salt. I did get Mongke II, and used him for Sistines, strictly for the culture, to fill gaps in the Han lands. 450AD I got two leaders, again both used for armies. By now I had 10 armies, and had already lost 1 or 2, usually from getting impatient and throwing them against non-redlined pikes. I also had 54 Ordu, waiting for Military Tradition, which I got in 480AD. I got my first couple of cavalry into action as I finished off the Ottomans, but I had been stockpiling 20+ Ordus on my northern border, waiting for upgrades. 500AD I declared war on Korea, and again there was a slaughter, as they had a stream of knights moving south along my roads to join their own war against the Tokugawa. I also filled 2 empty armies that were waiting, and topped off a couple of Horde armies, and invaded Korea. (I kept my ROP with the Gogu, I think they were the only country I never had a war with!). The cav went quick, although I took more losses than I should have, as I was overconfident and didn’t wait to bombard the cities down before using them. But I took Seoul in 550AD, generating my last leader Baidur. That and several new cities founded pushed me over the limit, and I achieved Domination victory in 560AD, with 1914 tiles, 10,751 Firaxis points.

Map of the Horde's Conquest Route
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/J2_G25_InvasionMap.jpg

Final Map
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/J2_G25_VictoryMini.jpg

I think one of the keys was that I tried to slow the tech pace down, with lots of wars among the AI, to prolong the usefulness of the Hordes. The AI never got to physics, we ended with them up by Democracy, Artistry, and Economics, but I had Military Tradition. I also limited the amount of luxuries I sold, and bought, so as not to provide them with too much free cash. I'm sure I could have done a better job of it, but it seemed to work well enough. Also, I tried to focus on opponents that were behind in tech (for example, the Koreans were tech leaders, so I left them alone until the end). This game did require a lot of patience, as bombarding cities with 10+ Ordus, 3 shots each, can get tedious. Also the constant warfare eats up a lot of RL time, as this game took me 38 hours. I could have just as well skipped the late research, as even with 60+ cav at the end, less than a third of them saw action, I could have used the research money to rush more settlers and temples earlier and probably hit the limit a little sooner. Overall though a very fun game, as I really felt the momentum build, and I actually felt sorry for the poor Khwaziri when the Hordes approached!! Also, 21 leaders is far and away a record for me, but those Hordes with Blitz gave me probably 5-10 elite fights per turn, usually against a redlined unit. ;) Also, as you can tell from the unit support, I stayed in Monarchy the whole time, which is rare for me, but it was worth it with the constant war.

Hammurodi

Nov 20, 2003, 04:18 AM

Justus,

well done :). It would be interesting to see how many people here first took out the germans then attacked the Celts from two fronts. I've done the same... That Celtish position seemed really strong, might be interesting to replay this one from their point of view (Is that possible later after GOTM25 is finished? See what the AI can do with such a massive MA advantage. My feeling is, though, that it does take a human intellect to convert the brief mongol advantage into a decisive one.

I'd also like to know how you knew where the domination limit was (except counting every tile and population point showing on the map each turn - there must be a better way. My empire summary only shows me MY population and territory.)

Cheers,
Hammurodi

Kuningas

Nov 20, 2003, 04:57 AM

OpenX (without special units)
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg 1.27

Spoiler 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1357491#post1357491)
Spoiler 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1376048#post1376048)
Spoiler 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1387532#post1387532)

MA 1050BC - 340AD

1000BC - 650BC
Expansion and leader farming times. AI haven't researched Republic/Monarchy. Despite Great Library I started own research to republic fastest possible speed. I continued defensive war against Khazars and GL appeared 650BC.
730BC revolt to Republic.
675BC GL from the Ancient Ages rushes Sun Tzu's.

650BC - 250BC GA
GA started same year when republic formed. During GA over 80% of my cities built library /keshiks. I went to Samurai Code which was mistake preventing salt resource unconnecting trick. Without salt I was in Keshik to Cavalry upgrade path. When better way was not to research SC and upgrade horses to Cavalries. With help of tech lead I made MA vs strong enemies (Arabs and later Egyt). Rajaputana was first direct target (I attacked weakest civs first).
410BC I rushed Leonardo's workshop with GL.
390BC Rajaputanas are gone forever.
310BC Han captured my city. That made them to my next target.
I lost many keshiks. Keshik is weak UU. Not my favorite so I started my research run to MT. I got it 70BC.

Map from year 490BC. Military: 16 keshiks and 4 MIs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Kuningas_gotm25_490bc.jpg

310BC Han sneak attacked. (took city)
10BC Egypt sneak attacked. (took city)
Most of my cities were undefended and that may called AI to attack.

When I got my cavalries Han, Arabs, Khazars and Khwarimizian faced my fury.
10BC Khazars annihilated
310BC-110AD Han annihilated
260AD Arabs annihilated
210AD-280AD Khwarimizian annihilated

340AD Mongols entered Industrial Ages. I made most research by myself. I got only 4 techs of AI. I could have been faster (and reach 200AD IA) if I would had do: 1. Hadn't researched 5 turn Samurai Code. 2. Started researching Republic earlier. 3. Not have been several turns in GA with slider 8.0.2.

Kuningas

Nov 20, 2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Hammurodi
I'd also like to know how you knew where the domination limit was (except counting every tile and population point showing on the map each turn - there must be a better way. My empire summary only shows me MY population and territory.)

Utilities sectory has many great programs. Mapstat: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=18243

Hammurodi

Nov 20, 2003, 06:17 AM

Found it,

Thanks for the info. Good game you have going!

Cheers
Hammurodi

SirPleb

Nov 20, 2003, 01:51 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gifhttp://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/ptw.jpg1.27, Horse Archers

Link to spoiler1, Ancient Times (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1352253#post1352253)

My game changed dramatically at exactly the time I entered the Middle Ages in 1075BC.

After trading Korea Construction for Currency, I saw that she knew Engineering! This meant that Korea was actually a real scientific Civ, an interesting surprise. There were four other Civs which would normally be scientific: Germany, Ottomans, Khhwarizmia (Persia), and Russia. So I tested giving Currency to Germany, to get her into the Middle Ages. The result was that Germany also knew Engineering!

After that I of course gifted the other three scientific Civs out of Ancient Times. I saw them get the following as their free techs:
Khwarizmia: Monotheism
Russia: Feudal Warlords
Ottomans: Monotheism

The next problem was to get all three of those Middle Age techs into Mongol hands. By including peace and ROPs, getting a bit more cash first from other Civs, and by temporarily floating all my cash for the first deal, I traded for Monotheism, Feudal Warlords, and Engineering at a net cost of 80g. I was the only Civ who had all three of those techs at the end of the trades.
I wonder what these techs will be worth in the QSC? :)

Now I was positioned to learn Samurai Code in about 15 turns. And of course I'd want to go to war after that. I decided now to do all I could to slow my rivals. I didn't like the look of the unknown Magog and Khazar units, and didn't like Korea and Arabia's apparent strength. So I decided to try a new variant on fomenting early wars. I started by choosing Egypt and Germany as my enemies. They seemed like good choices to gang up on because each is industrious, each had a good start, and each had a defensible position at the end of a peninsula. I expected they could both successfully fend off multiple enemies for a long time.

I declared war on Egypt and Germany. Then I allied every other Civ against one of the two, giving tech for some of the deals, taking money for others. The unusual thing I did was that I didn't ally any Civ against a nearby rival. I wanted all Civs to be sending their attack units on long trips, through other Civs' lands. Two reasons for this: 1) Hoping they'd start other wars due to crossing so many rival lands; 2) I wanted to catch as many Civs as I could with their troops away from home when I attacked. So the alliances I made were:

1) Against Germany: Arabia, Russia, Tokugawa, Ottomans, Han Dynasty, Rajaputana.

2) Against Egypt: Magog, Khazars, Coguryeo, Korea, Khwarizmia, Celts.

And then finally I was finished my 1075BC turn! :)

From that date till the end of the game, I renegotiated the alliances above whenever peace broke out and I wasn't yet at war with the Civ involved. Over time the other Civs also formed a few alliances of their own.

While I was learning Samurai Code, building a few libraries (mainly for culture), and stockpiling units to upgrade, I saw many enemy units travelling here and there. It was especially nice to see lots of Coguryeo attack units travelling southward on the long walk to Egypt. But the strange Magog and Khazar units didn't leave home. Hmmm.

In 730BC I learned Samurai Code. For a long time after that I didn't do any research, used all funds to rush production. (Mostly military, some buildings and some settlers.) Some Bagatur Hordes were completed very quickly due to prebuilds I'd had going for a while. (Temples were perfect for these prebuilds, costing the same as Bagatur Hordes.)

In 630BC I triggered my Golden Age by destroying a wandering German unit with one of my Bagatur Hordes.

In 570BC I decided the time had come to begin major assaults. By this date I could honorably terminate many of my alliances and I had a respectable force of 12 Targhaut Cavalry, 16 Ordu Archers, and 8 Bagatur Hordes.

I attacked Coguryeo first, in 570BC. I'd have preferred Magog and Khazar as first targets but I felt my forces might be too weak for a successful lightning strike against either of them.

The bulk of Coguryeo forces were far from home and could not return before I destroyed her in 530BC.

Next I attacked Korea. And in 470BC I got my first leader, who rushed Sun Tzu's. In 410BC I finished off Korea, having captured all of her towns. By this time my army had grown a fair bit, to 13 Targhaut, 27 Ordu, and 15 Bagatur.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sirpleb25-2a.jpg

In 350BC my healed and repositioned troops attacked Magog. My Ordu archers redlined all the units in the first city, including the odd units. Bagadurs then decimated them, gaining many promotions to elite. In 290BC I finished off Magog. I gained the Great Library from them, was up to five luxuries, and could now finish my ring 7 builds. I got a second leader during the Magog war and sent him to the ex-Korean area to build a Forbidden Palace.

In 230BC I repeated the process with Khazars. During this attack my Golden Age ended, at 210BC. The Golden Age had been wonderfully productive, my army was up to 17 Targhaut, 43 Ordu, 27 Bagatur, and 1 Khorchin at this date. (I'd just received Invention from the Great Library.) In 150BC I finished off Khazars. As well as their cities, I'd gained the Pyramids from them :)

I got a third leader while fighting Khazars and used him to rush Leonardo's. And also a fourth leader - Bagatur Hordes are truly wonderful leader generators! From this time onward leaders were plentiful. I noted 13 leaders in total in my game, might have missed one or two. One subsequent leader was used for JS Bach's. All the rest were used just for minor rushing - a couple for universities, most converted to armies which travelled back to the core and disbanded there to rush marketplaces.

In 110BC, shortly after finishing off Khazars, the Great Library gave me Gunpowder. Much as I was enjoying the Mongol special units, it seemed clear that Cavalry would be considerably more effective for making fast advances. Especially as defenders grew stronger in the near future. Since it was almost certain I'd get Education next from the Great Library, I started research again, at the maximum speed I could afford toward Military Tradition.

After the Khazars I attacked Russia and Rajaputana at the same time. During that time Han Dynasty went to war with me. Part of my forces protected the southern border and even began a small advance while I continued in the north, finishing off Rajaputana in 30BC and Russia in 30AD.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sirpleb25-2b.jpg

By this time I'd decided that I would not attack Arabia at all. She was strong, had a fast UU, and was rich. I'd be better off keeping her as a paying ally and taking over weaker Civs to reach domination.

So my next logical target would be Khwarizmia but, in my complicated ongoing web of alliances, I had a peace treaty still in force with her. So my troops swept across to Han Dynasty instead. Han Dynasty put up the strongest fight I'd encountered yet but my ever-growing Mongol hordes made steady progress, taking about two towns per turn. By 150AD I'd reduced her to one town beside Egypt and I gave her peace for 50gpt. (I have no idea how she could afford to pay that.)

Next I'd have preferred to continue in the same direction, through the Ottomans and into Egypt. But I had an active peace deal with Ottomans and my treaty with Khwarizmia had expired. So the troops turned around and attacked Khwarizmia, reducing her to one town she had in the Ottoman area - I remained at war with her and took that last town a bit later.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sirpleb25-2c.jpg

I then waited a few turns, repositioning and researching while waiting for my Ottoman treaty to expire. In 280AD I learned Military Tradition and upgraded 48 Ordu Archers to Cavalry. I stopped research for the rest of the game and upgraded the rest of my Ordu in subsequent turns.

Throughout this period I'd also been rushing settlers and using them to fill in captured territory, working toward domination of course.

In 290AD I attacked Ottomans with Cavalry and Bagatur Hordes. Finished them off in 320AD and attacked Tokugawa (who were down to just a few towns due to an alliance they'd formed against Egypt), and also attacked Egypt. During this time I strengthened relations with Arabia and Celts, bringing them both to "gracious". Domination was in sight and I didn't want any distractions on my other borders.

In 370AD I finished off Tokugawa. In 390AD I finished off Egypt. By this time I was rushing settlers at a furious pace to fill in captured territory.

And so it was that in 400AD the Mongols reached a domination victory!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sirpleb25-2d.jpg

SirPleb

Nov 20, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by LKendter
The key is how much damage you do to the AI. I shreded Korea to just one city and got - Metallurgy, Physics, Navigation and Banking. That is 3 late required late age techs.
I have the impression that there is also a time factor involved. I've had cases where what the AI would give me for peace went up or down over time.

The only reason I'm fairly sure of for an AI becoming willing to pay more for peace (when there's been no fighting, i.e. no damage and no cities taken) is a new alliance. If you ally with someone against an AI, the AI seems to immediately become willing to pay more for peace. Presumably because it would like you to break your word in the alliance.

What I've seen more often is the AI's offer for peace going down over time. I think it has a somewhat short memory of damage in this regard. If you shred the AI but then wait 20 turns before giving them peace, it is as if they're not feeling the pain any more :) So, I suspect that another factor in getting the most out of them for peace is to deal them a lot of damage in a fairly short interval.

akots

Nov 21, 2003, 03:41 AM

Predator, PTW 1.27, unique units

I did very poorly in QSC, could not build 4-turn settler factory because did not move NE from the starting location. Instead of SirPleb's 19 cities I got only 11. All were building military, mostly Gospodar and warriors. Tech pace of the game was insane. I did whatever possible to slow it down but still it was very difficult to keep up. Serious wars started in 610 BC beginning with Khazars followed by India, Magog, Russia, Goguryeo, Korea, Arabs, Celts, Germany, Khwarizmia, and Han. I was half-way through Han who had already some reflemen defenders when domination was triggered in 540AD (Firaxis score 10,559). Interestingly, it was very difficult to eliminate Russia and India. They both had settlers in galley parked in some remote areas. Fortunately, Ordu and Khorchin were very effective in sinking these ships. Building horde of Ordu and upgrading them was not a big deal as well as diplomacy. However, because of these pesky settlers in galleys the risk of cultural flipping was very high and there were many cities with resisters. My personal impression is that unique mongol units were ineffective against pikemen/musketmen. However, they were very fast and easy to build and multiple bombard ability was sometimes very handy in large numbers. Decisive edge was only reached with cavalry. Han was the only civ researched to Industrial Age. Surviving Tokugawa, Ottomans, and Egypt were still in the Middle Ages. Overall, the AI put very little resistance. And certainly, many thanks to the developers, these unique units are very beautiful and probably well-balanced.

bradleyfeanor

Nov 21, 2003, 07:34 AM

My God, SirPleb: Your game was a true work of art. I especially like how you gifted the scientific civs into the middle ages. My game went into stagnation at that time, probably because I did not do the same. The scientific civs entered the middle ages severally over the next 200 years and no one got Feudal Warlords, therefore, it was a long time in coming. If I had gifted all of them into the MAs at the same time, would it have been more likely that someone would have aquired Feudal Warlords?

Justus II

Nov 21, 2003, 09:21 AM

I don't think that the timing of hitting the MA has any effect on which tech they get. The key to SirPleb's strategy as I see it is that by gifting the techs on his turn, he was able to trade for the techs before the AI had a chance to trade with each other, and got a 3-1 deal (better than that, actually, as he was also able to sell them back to the other AIs). In my game, the AI's hit the MA at the same time, but it was triggered by their researching construction, so they traded amongst themselves, and instantly 4 scientific civs had all 3 early MA techs. Russia was too broke even to pay the AI's penny costs, so they had only Monotheism, and I was able to get a 2-1. But by holding Construction, SirPleb had the 'initiative', as it were, in the tech trades, and could broker it into the big payoff!

(BTW, I was also suprised that there were that many true scientific civs, but it threw me, as I remember thinking earlier that Russia wasn't, since they didn't start with Bronze Working. Maybe Cracker changed the starting techs to throw us off?)

denyd

Nov 21, 2003, 06:12 PM

Anybody else notice how long this is taking.

I played last night for 3 hours and only got in 10 turns. The combination of checking each of the 14 (then 13,12,11,10) opponents every turn for trade opportunities and attacks with 10 Ordus bombarding at 3 shots each to redline the 5 defenders and 12 Korchins bombarding at 1 shot each to kill 3 of the defenders followed by 2 Hordes killing the last 2 and moving in a Turghaut for defense, then moving the entire stack to the next city (victim) and doing it again it takes a long time complete a single turn.

Cracker & company please don't take this as a complaint. This is probably one of the most enjoyable games I've played. It's just that I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to complete this game in spite of playing 2-3 hours every night this month (the wife's not very happy about that) and I just know I'll be spending as much time next month on the Asian Melee as that sounds like it'll top this one. I'd also like to find time to squeeze in the 6-4 Iroquois game (:love: them mounted warriors), but I just don't see that happening.

To top it all off, I've had Conquests since 11/6 and haven't even put in the computer once yet (considering the FP & corruption issues, maybe not a bad thing).

So to wrap this up, thanks for a great game and here's hoping the 6-6 mid-month game will be on a small map.

:beer:

akots

Nov 21, 2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
The scientific civs entered the middle ages severally over the next 200 years and no one got Feudal Warlords, therefore, it was a long time in coming. If I had gifted all of them into the MAs at the same time, would it have been more likely that someone would have aquired Feudal Warlords?

I had Russia and Germany having both Feudalism and Monotheism and Korea was not in MA yet. So, I sold Construction to them and they got Engineering. To trade it, I had to re-negotiate peace and pay lots of gpt. For Engineering I traded Monotheism and Feudalism and did not trade these tech further to keep the research pace as slow as possible. This indeed slowed it down but not in the direction I was not expecting because some civs already had Education-Music Theory and Chemistry and Samurai Code was not yet discovered. Because of this, I had very few Bagatur Hordes (probably total 6 or 7) and had to do decisive fighting with Khorchin/Anda backed up by Turghaut and Gospodar. It was mostly OK against spearmen.

civ_steve

Nov 21, 2003, 06:32 PM

denyd: perhaps a bit TOO much discussion on your use of MiddleAge units ... and, yes - it is taking very long, maybe 1/2 hour to an hour per turn. I'm pretty sure I'll get there by month's end (and it is all GREAT FUN :D)

Also, I believe its been announced that there is NO game 6-6 ... and game GOTM 26 will have an extra week to complete. See the below link for full info:

Medal Play Announcement (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1265430#post1265430)

This post relocated to this thread from spoiler #1 since Denyd's post did not belong in spoiler #1.

AdrianE

Nov 24, 2003, 04:21 PM

I'm going to echo Denyd's comments. It is a great game but it is taking a very, very long time to complete.

Of course part of that is my fault. I failed to slow the tech pace sufficiently and by the time I finished off Russia, Arabia and India the other civs had infantry! The Mongol people were just learning military tradition and still firmly in the middle ages! Yikes! The Mongols were at least 10 techs and 1/2 an age behind.
I was depending on pointy stick research throughout the Middle ages but it wasn't coming fast enough!

I consider starting far off wars to be an exploit, so I didn't do it. That really hurt in this game.

However when used en masse the Mongol unique units can shred infantry and other industrial units. Ordu's and Bagaturs bombard (I'm wearing out the 'B' key!) and then Korchins bombard for the kill. I even got a great leader when an elite Korchin sank an Ironclad. It just takes forever to reduce well defended cities.

It will take about 30 more turns for my Mongols to achieve domination, but that will take 20+ hours of gameplay in 6 days. That's not going to happen.

In my game the Han and the Magog were at war early and most of the Magog army was far away so they fell easily. The Koreans got decimated by the Goguryeo so they never amounted to much. Arabia built 4 wonders in Makkah and 2 more in another city. They became a priority target after Russia and the Khazars.

Anyway - very fun and well thought out game. My compliments to the GOTM crew.

denyd

Nov 24, 2003, 06:11 PM

:spank: Civ_Steve, you're right. (thanks to whoever moved this)

I hadn't qualified for this thread when I made that post, but I have now, so here's where I stand in

Khazar destroyed in 90 BC
Magog destroyed in 260 AD
Germany destroyed in 350 AD
Celts destroyed in 400 AD
Russia destroyed in 550 AD
Rajaputana destroyed in 640 AD
Khwarizmia destroyed in 760 AD
Goguryeo destroyed in 880 AD

Korea down to 1 city between Ottoman and Tokugawa (my allies against them)

I just began taking Han Dynasty out last session (2 down 13 left)

Somebody answer me this: Arabs have 12 cities and I have 96 cities. I have 168 military units and am weak against the Arabs. How can 12 cities support that many units? The Arabs are also paying me 56gpt for current tech / lux deals. :confused:

Using the Bagatur & Ordu for bombardment a following up with Cavalry & Korchin to finish off the survivors has cities falling to me at a rate of 2-3 per turn. The 14 city Rajaputana empire fell in 4 turns and the Khwarizmia's 10 cities went in 6. That's going to slow with riflemen on the board (Arabs & I only one's with Infantry).

If I can keep the Arabs on my side, I should be able to take out the Han, Ottoman and final Korean city. That should be enough for domination. All I need is 8-10 more hours for those 20 turns.:D

:beer:

AlanH

Nov 26, 2003, 06:30 PM

[civ3mac] 1.29b2 Open

Well, that was a wild ride!

I reported on my Ancient Age and QSC period here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1353973#post1353973). That was a relatively uneventful time for the Mongols, who spent 3000 years building a neat tight core of 11 productive cities. Our diplomats had managed to get a few fights going at safe distances away in each direction, but all we had suffered so far were a few barb events. In 1000 BC, all that was about to change, as our troops approached the Gogury for a confrontation. We were about to hook up iron and revolt to Monarchy. Now read on ...

Having just completed a great rerun of GOTM23 as a succession game SG23 - standard pangeia map with a domination target, I wanted to try to emulate solo the terrific result our team achieved then. Clearly the increased number of civs, the different traits and unique units would modify it considerably, but I set myself a target of domination by 750 AD, and before the Industrial Age.

To quote Meat Loaf "Two out of three ain't bad". I made it to domination, I was still in the Medieval (although one of my two remaining rivals had just made it to Industrial), but it was 20 turns late - 960 AD.

Firaxis score was 8679, Jason under 10,000 :(.

It was a roller coaster ride of military activity, with continuous supporting diplomatic and economic management, during which I was never at peace until the last few turns, and I was mostly fighting actively on three or four fronts simultaneously.

I took out or minimised:

430 BC: Khazan
250 BC: Magog
110 BC: Russia (lived in exile until 440 AD)
280 AD: Rajputana (lived in exile until 910 AD)
410 AD: Keltoi
480 AD: Goguryeo
620 AD: Korea (lived in exile until 690 AD)
760 AD: Germany (kept alive until 820 AD to avoid alliance problems)
760 AD: Khwarizmia
870 AD: Han Dynasty
910 AD: Ottoman

960 AD: Alive and kicking: Arabs, Egypt, and the Mongols Rule OK? [dance]

Although this game probably didn't pose much of a problem for the experts, it was enough of a challenge to stretch my puny talents to the limit, and I suspect those of many other wannabe's like me. It really made me think about the diplomatic options, and as I didn't have time for the Halloween special I also had to learn to use the new units on the fly.

If anyone thinks a timeline or more specific details would be interesting, please let me know. I have a blow-by-blow set of notes, and all the autosaves, so I can recover screenshots or whatever.

Some highlights:

I built the FP just south of Korakorum. Our first leader didn't arrive until 320 AD, and built our new Palace in the ex Khazan capital, Balkhash. We then won two in one turn. The first immediately built an army so that we could build the Heroic Epic, and the second built Sun Tzu in Mohacs. Later we used leaders for Leonardo's, another army, the Heroic Epic, Military Academy and Magellan's Voyage. The last two were pure indulgence. There was nothing else I wanted to build, and I refused to tie up superbly flexible individual units into straitjackets.

I found I was able as never before to focus totally on the narrow victory objective. I built not one library, my only markets were in cities that grew large enough and productive enough to use them. Production was offensive units ... and then more offensive units.

I have decided that Civ3 standard defenders are pretty useless. I finished up with some defenders, which were accidental results of accepting defaults in captured cities in the heat of battle, thinking I'd be finished by the time anything was produced, and never getting around to fixing them before the spears, pikes or whatever were eventually made. Of course, the Swords grew older and became Turghaut cavalry, but those were actually pretty effective attackers against that last spear or pike, and I was even taking down 2 HP muskets with them at the end, as front lines stretched and cavalry healed. And they could keep up with the attack. A combination of a Turghaut and a horde of Hordes gives most of what you want in an attack force. Khorchin were interesting, and of course I had some, both upgrades and new builds. But I didn't really use their lethal bombard much because bombard often produces no effect whereas a hand to hand attack usually kills or at least maims. The Hordes were beautiful. Combined fast artillery and mobile attacker, four or five of them outside a city, defended by a Turghout could lay seige and reduce population and defenders to pulp with movement points to spare to go in for the kills. They could also combine with Cavalry to provide pure artillery and/or supplementary attack.

I reached a point in the game around 20 turns from the end when I realised I still hadn't built one worker! I had my original eqWorker plus around a hundred guests that I had accumulated steadily, from early trades and later captures. I did wonder whether to try to make it to the end with no worker builds at all, but I figured I'd look a bit sick if I got to territory domination and was short of citizens, so I built a few to help the irrigation along.

It's still a mystery to me why Saladdin marched what must have been fifty assorted Cataphracts and Cavalry straight past my empty cities to fight for one or two remnant cities in Germany and Han Dynasty that I hadn't finished with yet during the end game. If that had been a human opponent I'd be dead meat! Even after the enemies were destroyed, he garrisoned a lot of them in a nine tile isolated city in the middle of Mongolia and they spent the whole between-turn time chasing around their compound like demented hamsters, never once thinking of breaking out and overwhelming Inner Mongolia.

@Cracker: I know everyone says it and it must get boring, but this game was stunning. Right from the structure of the rivals through the shape and distribution of the map to the exquisite new units. The Steppe Settler animation as he parked his rig, unpacked and built his new home was a delight and worth all the hours it took to get to the point where I could see it.

At 30 to 60 minutes per turn during several all-night sessions, I'm not sure my marriage would stand the strain of many more of these, but for this and any other works of Civ Art you care to build for us mere mortals - a heartfelt "Thank you".

Here's a screenshot of the minimap and headcount for my final save. I'm still not sure how I ended upt with two Caravels, but some nights were rather long :rolleyes:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/AlanH_GOTM25_960AD.gif

Txurce

Nov 27, 2003, 06:39 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif Mac 1.29

975 BC – 10 BC: THE LONG PREP FOR WAR

In 975 BC the Mongols entered the Middle Ages with 12 cities, 11 workers, 21 military units, and 1786g.

Germany had built the Pyramids, and the nearby minor civs built no wonders worth fighting for. The Magog built a second wonder the turn before acquiring literature, and I was hoping they would build the Library in time. They didn’t, and the lack of a nearby useful wonder or large numbers of captured slaves offered no reason or tools to launch a premature war that might have generated Leaders. I was frustrated, but felt I had no choice except to focus my resources along a less aggressive path.

Because both monotheism and engineering were already discovered, and the AI could research faster than me, my options were to either blow my gold on both techs, then research invention, or save even more gold until monotheism was also discovered. I chose the latter.

In 510 BC, one turn after the Ottomans researched feudalism, I traded the Ottomans 50 gpt for feudalism and 202g. Engineering and monotheism cost me a net 107g. I then declared war on the Ottomans, canceling the gpt, for a final net gain of all three techs and 95g for one lousy ruined reputation. I then allied with the Han against the Ottomans, insuring I wouldn’t be attacked, and declared war on Germany then allied with the Kelts, because both were getting too big. One turn later, the Ottomans built the Library, leaving me on my own for research. Invention was due in 20 turns.

In 410 BC two Turghaut Cavalry built to kick off my GA did so against an isolated Ottoman town. My biggest cities built markets. Research picked up, and I built a very tight core around my FP (which was right next to the capital) that eventually totalled 18 cities. The capital built settlers, a few others built workers, one prebuilt Leo’s, and the rest pumped out Ordu Archers, Korchins, and Turghaut Cavalry in a formula I worked out in the pre-game.

Over the centuries, more civs joined the two wars I started, and I pulled the Tokugawa in against the Ottomans as the Han made no headway. In 50 BC, I researched invention, built Leo’s, and upgraded to 16 Turghaut, 13 Korchin, and 46 Ordu. My cities then switched to making Bagatur Hordes, and continued to do so for the next 570 years.

10 AD –770 AD: THE MOUNTED CHARGE TO DOMINATION

My plan was to quickly jump my capital in Khazar territory, and fight a rolling two-front war. The northern force would take the Khazars, Russians, Arabs, Raj and Goguryeo in a big U-shaped swing. The southern force would take the Magog, followed by Persia, then kick back for the Kelts before joining with the rest of my units for what promised to be the tough fight: the Han, who blocked the route to the western peninsula. My intent was to avoid the Egyptians, Germans, and possibly Korea.

My GA ended just as I went to war – to the east with weak Russia en route to the Khazars, and to the west against the Magog. One turn later I declared war on the Khazars. At the same time, one of my productive cities flipped to the Rajaputanis – the first of several to come. The Khazars were out by 50 AD, and I jumped my palace to Balkhash with my first Leader on the next turn, as the Magog also expired. I also declared war on Korea this turn, because their lone city south of my core caused one of mine to flip to them! I took both cities, then made peace with Korea in 150 AD.

The force that knocked off the Magog now moved south against the Khwarismians. After destroying two small towns, my combined-arms approach hit a wall here, as the Khwarizmian pikemen, defending cities on hills, and backed by counterattacking knights and MI, gave ground slowly. In 230 AD I made peace with Persia in exchange for Susa, to give myself a chance to reload. (Captured Arbela then flipped a couple of turns later.)

In 210 AD I built Bach’s with another Leader. One turn later, with Russia reeling, I declared war on the Arabs. The Raj were far more troublesome due to their culture, but I wanted my troops to always fight the closest civ, and avoid wheeling back and forth. The Russians were out by 270 AD, and I focused on an opponent I was worried about: the Arabs. By now they had some musketmen and lots of pikes, but oddly, only longbowmen for offense. I attacked with one main force, while a smaller one picked off their northern peninsular cities. Playing patiently, I bombarded them down to the red before attacking, and made steady headway northeast.

The Han, aided by the Tokugawa, had finally cracked the Ottoman lines in a war started in 510 BC. In 310 AD, I declared proxy war on Korea and allied with the Raj and Goguryeo, hoping to lure the Raj offensive units west before I finished the Arabs and hit them from the east. At the same time, I renewed hostilities against the Khwarizmians. With fresh Bagatur Hordes, the Khwarizmians were eliminated the same year as the Arabs: 380 AD.

In this period, two more of my productive cities flipped to the Raj, including one on my southern border. My strategy throughout the game was to leave captured cities empty until the war was over, then use a limited number of units to pacify them, after which I rushed temples. As I positioned the conquerors of Arabia to invade the Raj, however, I decided to raze the large eastern cities, as I felt they’d be certain to flip. It would be easy enough to settle these areas myself, since there were no competitors left in the area.

In 420 AD I attacked the Raj from the east, keeping several Bagatur in the west to guard against strikes from Raj units fighting Korea. The Raj surprised me by counterattacking with cavalry! I quickly made peace with Korea, and developed a revised strategy against the Raj. First I knocked out their horse and iron links. I razed two major cities in the east, but left the little ones undefended, which drew out the Raj’s few cavalry (most had died fighting Korea, I guess). Their cavalry would take an empty town, and I would retake it with reinforcements, killing the cavalry at the same time. The Raj cities were lightly defended, validating my strategy of drawing them into an early war on the opposite side from where I would attack. As a result, my "knights" overwhelmed their cavalry, and the Rak fell shockingly fast: 500 AD.

I took stock. The Mongols controlled less than half the world, and I had already encountered cavalry. I wasn’t going to win without it. I had already picked up gunpowder in a broken peace deal, and now made peace with the Tokugawa, paying 590g for metallurgy. I then set research on military tradition, due in six turns. My cities had already begun building Ordu Archers in anticipation of a mass cavalry upgrade. My plan was to invade the Han with all my cavalry and push all the way up to Egypt, while my obsolete mounted units consolidated in the southeast. These units had been picking off the northwesternmost German cities, as the Kelts had begun to collapse in a war that had been raging for 1000 years. In 510 AD, I made peace with Germany, declared war on the Kelts and blitzkrieged them out of existence in three turns. In the northwest, one obsolete combined force was taking the three Goguryeo cities one at a time.

In 590 AD, Korea declared war on the Goguryeo, revealing that it, too, had cavalry. But now, so did the Mongols. 32 cavalry slammed into the Han’s soft eastern borders – they were on the verge of crushing the Ottomans and Tokugawa to the northwest – and took five cities the first turn. China had two defenders per city: muskets, pikes, and spears. Occasionally a cavalry unit – and one cav army! - would work its way back from the northern wars, but their eastern half collapsed amazingly quickly: three cities on the next turn, three the next two turns, before I paused to heal.

In 650 AD, as I nervously noted that all the civs except Germany had entered the industrial era, I was ready to strike Germany. 15 knights were riding through the old Kelt lands en route to the Tokugawan front. I ambushed them on open ground with 36 Bagaturs and 6 Korchin, and wiped them out. The invasion of Germany then began in earnest. It progressed more slowly, as expected, as the Bagatur force faced two to three defenders per city – musket and pike – as well as the odd knight, longbowman and MI.

A nine-strong Korean cavalry force, also en route to the Tokugawa, turned around when the Tokugawa fell to Egypt and the Han. By now the Han had been reduced to its Ottoman holdings, and I had begun to divert cavalry back toward Korea. I caught the Korean cavalry near their border and staged a second massacre. I then invaded Korea with the returning cavalry and two Bagatur armies, and experienced only one stray counterattack. This was a relief, given my discovery that the Koreans had… riflemen!

Fortunately, I knew I was in the end game. The Han were eliminated in 700 AD, and I left eight cavalry in the west to take out the three scattered Ottoman cities, and pacify what unrest still existed. The Korean cities were all defended by two units, of which half were rifles, and these fell steadily. The war against Germany picked up steam as I sent a cavalry army there to deliver the hammer after my depleted obsolete units did their bombarding. They were down to five cities, and the Koreans to two, when domination was reached in 770 AD.

In summary, I pursued my usual domination/conquest strategy of building almost nothing but barracks, except temples in conquered cities. My early efforts were limited by a lack of foreign workers and no wonders or leaders. I am still not sure if waiting until 10 BC to start to go on the offensive was the best strategic choice. I didn’t see the point of warring with ancient units against Predator opponents, and I couldn’t blo