I'm back finally, and looking forward to a few more SG's with the "endless discussion" team :). I have 3 games in mind that I want to give a go. They will be run Consecutively rather than concurrently. Ideas #1 and #2 have ceartian elements in common, while yet being fundimentally diffrent in their victory goals. Which we do first will be up to the team. (I vote for space!)

Idea #1: The one built city Spaceship Victory. The Initial Idea is this.

The One Built City Idea:

Civ: Babalon or Mayans

Difficulty: Demigod

Map: Between Small and Medium (90 X 90)/Temperate/Flat/Pangea/ 20% land


Barbarians are Raging

Opponents 6 - The 6 Expansionist civs with no cheap cultural buildings (Zulu, Mongols, Americans, Hittites, Inca, Portugeese)

Varient Rules:

We may only build One city ever.

We may obtain up to 5 more cities maximum (with an exception noted below) and must propaganda/flip/capture them. They must be capable of joining boarders with one of our current cities on first boarder expansion (or upon fist boarder expansion by a recently captured city so we wouldn't have to sit arround 5 or so turns waiting to capture a city in rapid succession) which must be done asap by rushbuy or whip of a culture building, even if it isnt ordinarily a prudent thing to do (we are allowed to let it get 1 shiled in the box first to save the double price rushing), and the city may work no citizens until it has a trade route and joined boarders with the capital.

Once we take ownersip of a city, it is our city and may never be abandoned or replaced. If it is razed, then we just have to plug along with no more than 5 total cities the rest of the game. If it is captured, we must make every reasonable effort to recapture it.

I know this doesn't sound too tough, but the kicker is that we are going for space ship victory, with all but 20k culture and domination enabled. (Probably impossible on Dieity).

Note: Space race now needs Robotics (and Uranium) for Stasis chamber

I have won this on Emperor in PTW, so it is doable on that level. The only requirements for the start are a river and costal access (so we could build the Colossus) and a non jungle/marsh wasteland area.

Also, to keep this from becoming a milking effort, we may only declare war with the intent of taking cities to reach our core of 6. Once we have our 6 cities, we may not declare war on anyone else unless it is required to get Aluminum or Uranium. If they declare on us though, we can do our worst to that civ if we chose. We are allowed to sign MPP's if we choose, but must fight only defensively we we declare on somone via this triggering. We may NEVER sign RoP agreements.

After discovering both Fission and Rocketry, we may embark on further city captures ONLY if there is NO other reasonable way, incuding trading, or razing and colonizing, to secure either Aluminum or Uranium and we may only war and capture cities for the purpose of being able to build the space ship. These cities may NEVER build anything, nor may we then build the FP anywhere.

An additional rule is that we must make every reasonable effort to keep our capital the #1 city at all times meaning we want wonders built there.


The OCN will be set back to 14 for this sceneareo. We'll do w/o the FP by being caped at 6 cities. The original idea was for the Civ to be Babalon for all those cheap culture buildings and Bowmen, yes, Bowmen. However Charis has suggested the Mayans as an Alternative (similar UU). I'm open to this idea since I know everyone is going to want to test out the new civs.

Our cultural mindset is we just want to be left alone to live in peace and happyness in our little shangra-la, but these other civs keep crowding in on us. Finally, we can take it no more and sweep out a nice path arround our capital . Later on, even this isn't enough, so we seek refuge in space away from these barbarians.

Idea #2: The One Built City Conquest.

Civ: Mayans or Babalon (whichever wasn't use in the Above game)

Difficulty: Demigod (or Deity if we are filling really massochistic, though I doubit we could win.)

Map: Small/Warm/Wet/4 Billion/Pangea

Barbs: Raging (or Roaming if Dieity!)

Opponents: 5 Random

Varient Rules: We may only build one city ever.

Victory Conditions: Space and Conquest enabled, but Space is off the table for us.

The requiremnts for an acceptable start would be a river and fertile terrain at the capital. (ie. it would have to be able to grow to size 12 in despotisim WITHOUT clearing wetlands and be able to reach 20 (actually 21 since one will be lost to corruption) shields at size 12.)

All diplomatic options are available to us.

Idea #3:Sid just win

Civ: Majority Vote Decides

Difficulty: Sid

Map:Large/Random/Random/Pangea (no pellago map for us!) /40% Land

Barbs: None

Opponents: Only 7 (I want to get more than 3 cities!). We can randomize or pick some or all.

Victory Conditions: All Enabled

Requirements for Start location: Fresh Water and Fertile land is a Must. Ok, maybe thats a crutch, but we'll most likely need it. And it's still more demanding than a 20% land pelago! Expect no more than a small chance to win from what Sulla is saying. This will DEFFINATELY not be an SG for the feint of heart.


The First game is tentitavely slated to begin November 14th (to coincide with the "rest of world" release of C3C. The original plan was to use the Babs/Spaceship for this game but some other options seem worth discussing.

Option 1: just stick with the program and do the Bab/Space game first.

Pros: This was the idea that I used to get you all to sign up, and I'd rather just stick to the program than lose even one person. Bab's seem to fit this concept the best. (The selected opponents were all selected because they were expansionist and didn't share a civ trait with Babalon). It will let us test out the new space race dynamics (since one part now needs 2 advances previously never needed)

Cons: With the new Civs and Civ traits it may be more appealing to use one of the new Civs (esp the Mayans) instead for the first game. Bab's seem even MORE strongly to fit #2 (they DID conquere the whole known world from one city afterall). I planed a somewhat extensive overhaul of the early babalonian military to foccus on the bow units, but I'm having trouble getting the editor to cooperate for some unknown reason...... Saving Babalon for game #2 would allow me more time to sort this problem out.


Option #2 Use The spaceship game but Sub in the Mayans.

Pros: Get to play arround with one of the new civs which has a similar UU (costs more but enslaves (yum!)). Would allow me more time to sort out the "bab unit changes problem" in the editor and we could send them conquering in game 2. (or maybe I can bribe Matt_G to fix it. I think he is an old hat at it (from working on DyP??). The selected opponents do still seem to fit the concept no matter who the opposing civ is. Maybe not quite as strongly of a fit, but a fit nonetheless. We still get to be early testers of the space race dynamics.

Cons: The enslavemnt of the Javilins would probably be more useful in a conquest style game than they would here. Not the originally advertised civ for this game so if anyone strongly objects to the change........


Option #3: Use the Mayans in idea #2 instead.

Pros: Get to play arround with one of the new civs which has a similar UU (costs more but enslaves (yum!)). Would allow me more time to sort out the "bab unit changes problem" in the editor and we could send them conquering in game 2. The Javelins would seem to be of more use in this game than the space ship one.

Cons: We don't get to be one of the early testers of the space race dynamics. Babs probably fit this concept better from a historical/role play perspective. Neither the originally advertised civ OR the oviginal concept for the game. It would take a unanamous decision to go with this game first.


Roster for Game 1 (In no particular order at this point)

Todd"Maniac"Marshall
meldor
Ridgelake
Charis
Skyfish
Matt_G

Reagan has promised to lurk and I'm going to hold him to it! :p

Rules for this series are simply that we avoid any of the Realms Beyond listed exploits, and also avoid the Negative Science exploit and Multiple Demand exploit. I'm sure everyone signed up allready knows these and knows where to find them so I won't elaborate further :)

Game #1 (and probably game #2) will be at a relaxed pace. 48 hours to "get it" and 96 hours to complete. (Thats almost a week in total there. If you need longer than that I encourage you to swap rather than ask for a skip (unless you really need a skip). Swaping is fine and dandy by me. I probably don't even NEED time rules with this group of battle hardened SG'ers, but.....

For game #1 First player plays to the end of 3000BC, 2nd player MAY take 20 turns if his first 10 are completely uneventful, each player after that plays 10 turns

I'd like the roster to all check in and vote for which game we should do first and also confirm you have C3C (or when you expect to get it). Also let me know where you'd like to go on the roster order (I think Skyfish needs a later slot while he waits for his copy of C3C and I also think I saw somewhere where Ridgelake was going to be out of town for a few days??? *Might have been Reagan though not sure*

Sounds good, Maniac. The length of that first post does fit the discuss-a-holic team spirit :hammer:

Alas, my reply is uncharacteristically brief... either game, either option is fine by me. For me it's too early to make a knowledgeable decision among these alternatives. 1/Babs would be most immediately understandable but would add the space race dynamics, the OBC Conquest sounds really neat, but potentially brutal (ie let's go DG not Deity for first shot at it) and any Sid game at this point would be 'informative' and a good run for the money but clearly a loss is a very real possibility.

It's all good,
Charis

(PS in edit, I do have the game, and can be placed anywhere in the roster you like)

the OBC Conquest sounds really neat, but potentially brutal (ie let's go DG not Deity for first shot at it)

Not as hard as it sounds. Check out one of Sirp's games I believe it was an OPEN game as Egypt with chariots running rampant. We were only allowed to build the capital and any additional cities had to be captured. IIRC it was won by domination but don't think conquest would've been out of the question.

It was played on Emperor I think but will check back to confirm and give you a link.

Edit: Sirp 8 - Slaves to the Pyramid (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51508)

BTW: Welcome back to you both :D !

Hotrod

I remember that game. It was right after his Jag rush game (that Charazteca or was it Charazuma) played a vital role ;).

The Jag game came as a response to some kid claiming that the Jag was the worst or close to the worst UU in the game. Yep, it was so bad they made it cost MORE in C3C :lol:

The "Slaves to the Pyramids" game was a combination of a way to prove that the oft maligned War Chariot was a good UU and an offshoot of my original posting of the OBC spaceship idea. He responded to it in the RBSG discussion thread by saying that the Spaceship idea would be just plain impossible on Deity (I agree, baring some amazing luck it would be.) He went on to say that he would be more interested in an OBC conquest challenge and that Babalon seemed the best choice because they are a "name civ" (City name = civ name) and because they had actually done just that.

As to relative difficulties, I think that an OBC conquest would be a good deal harder on DG with the Babs or Mayans than on Emperor with The old 10 Shield Jags or with War Charriots. Those cheap for their stats units that can retreat and react faster to pick off stray wounded units are just better suited for that purpose.

Nonetheless, the Bowaman is a good UU in my opinion and I hope to prove that :p. Its flexible, available to stockpile at an early turn (Warrior Code is the 3rd cheapest Tech next to Pottery and Ceremonial Burrial) needs no resources, and if you time your push right, can upgrade to longbows for extra firepower. Not as good as a 10 shield jag for sure, maybe not as good as the War Chariot (20 shield horsemen is just obscene really, at least until they try to corss the Alps or the local rainforest to reach the next opponet :p), Not as powerful as the MW either. But not as "useless" as some think either.

I am in as well :)

Scenario #1 is interesting to me and I have no qualms playing the Babs. I love that UU :D
The Mayans are a better fit for scenario #2.

But am easy and dont mind whichever ;)

First order of business:
@Todd: I am not an 'old hat' with the editor. I do have a good knack for figuring out things of that sort though, so maybe I could help you out there. I just worked on the Sillyvopedia for DyP and that was just briefly.
Have you posted in the Creation & Customization forum about the problem you are having? I`ll bet those guys could set your feet on the right path post haste!

As far as the ideas go......
I`m in the same boat as Charis. All of those ideas sound fine to me but I haven't received my copy of Conquests yet, so I can't make an 'informed' decision.
BTW, I should have my copy tomorrow or Wed. at the latest according to Airborne's tracking page.

Frankly, the OBC Conquest sounds like the most fun to me, but I would be happy with any of the three.
Hell, I am just happy to have been invited to play with this awesome group of hardcore SGer's. :lol:

Which brings me to my next point. I am sure that I`m the weakest player on this team so slot me accordingly!!

Thanks for reminding everyone of Sirps "Slaves to the Pyramids' game Hotrod. That game was a blast. It was fun to go reread that thread tonight. My only complaint was that it went so fast (due to the fact we just absolutely :hammer: the AI) I only got 2 turns in it. :lol:

I will post again when I actually have my copy of C3C in hand.

Ditto, tnx for pointing out Sirp's Egyptian game. Yowza, that was brutal! Even more impressive given how *badly* behind they looked after doing nothing all game waiting for Pyramids. I read the whole thread AND re-read the Green Machine one too (I did recall that was a blast to play)

Sirp, if you're around, you are definitely due for another 'underdog' open SG :hammer:
(Does anyone know of his SG plans?)

Charis

Meldor and Ridgelake are both out of town right now. Ridgelake is due back the 13th, not sure about meldor. If I haven't recieved repiles from them by friday I'll wait till Sunday evening to open it. I'm going to be incredibly busy at work the next 3 days so no time to do the mod. After reflection i still think the Scientific and Religious Babs are better suited to come out of the hole and make a space run than the Mayans so we'll probably stick with them for the space game and use the mayans in Maniac2 where the enslave feature should get more milage.

I also decided to squeeze one more "OBC" game in before the Sid run. IT would be a traditional OCC on DG. Might as well just do a sort of OBC trillogy :lol:

Originally posted by Charis
Sirp, if you're around, you are definitely due for another 'underdog' open SG :hammer:
(Does anyone know of his SG plans?)

Charis

Sirp hasn't been around for a while. Perhaps I will e-mail him soonish and see what he's up to these days. :)

:hmm: Underdog UU open SG. :hmm:
A Chasqui scout rush? Is that sick or what. :lol:

I believe Sirp was burned out from Civ3 after our TG Competition (EG1) and hasn't been seen since. He still seems to be around the forums a little bit, however.

Sirp is actually busy creating and programming his own :eek: strategy game !
Check it out on http://wesnoth.whitevine.net

He did hint he *might* be back when Conquest would come out so now is the best time Sirp, come over here and join us again !
:D

Gee...all this discussion about me! :)

I don't have Conquests yet, but will probably get it. From what I've seen it should have even more potential to make Civ fresh and interesting than PTW did.

Jags costing more than 10 shields though :cry:

I don't know alot about these new 'scenarios', but has anyone considered not playing them single player, and saving them to play in a succession game? That could be fun.

I will be following this game with interest, and of course, if/when I get Conquests, expect to see me in some SGs. I'd love to play with all you guys again.

-Sirp.

Coolness, between you and Todd both 'appearing' from thin air on mention of the name... hmm... I wonder if Britney Spears plays Civ?! Er... Mrs C says nevermind :p

Glad to see you back around Sirp, even if in lurking mode :D

Right after the comments below a few things came to mind...
(some of which sane people have shot down as suicidal, but they make one pause and wonder) Most continue in the theme of ancient war by using a 'carpet'

- AW Deity with Jaggies (prolly IS after the cost increase)
- A bowmen/longbow conquest
- Mayan JavThrower rush on as high a lvl as we could stomach
(combined with 'can't build any of your own workers)

Any my two favorite game choices to play with the Sirp-man:
- Folks are dissing the 3-man chariot already before they're even played -- they cry out for vindication!
- Likewise the Chasqui scouts are getting maligned, they need an offensive warmonger game to acquit them!

BTW, along the lines of Conquests not in SP but SG? We're ALL OVER that! See the RBCiv Discussion thread, and go place your order for C3C NOW!!

:hammer:
Charis

I don't think the three-man chariot will be the strongest uu around, but I think it'll be pretty good. Impi who can hit back! I remember in Gothmog's AWE game, we pillaged the Arabs back to the stone age with Impi, having a few problems with them counter-attacking us with archers. With three-man chariots, any archers dare step near us and they'll be toast!

The Chasqui scouts...uhh...I'm really dubious about. I'd like to believe they could be really useful, but I just can't see it.

A 'Mayan Slave Traders' game with some set of bizarre rules about capturing slaves could be lots of fun too.

-Sirp.

On playing the scenarios -
LK57 is playing the Japan scenario.
LK?? will play the middle ages scenario.

'Mayan Slave Traders'
:hmm: That sounds like an old LK series game - the Lazy French where we could only capture / buy workers.

Originally posted by LKendter

'Mayan Slave Traders'
:hmm: That sounds like an old LK series game - the Lazy French where we could only capture / buy workers. [/B]

It'd be somewhat like that, but involving an even more dramatic reliance on slavery.

Something like, "Technologies may never be researched. Technologies may only be bought off other civilizations if the price is paid in full with slaves."

-Sirp.

Wow all this interesting discussion in my thread :). Hi Sirp :wavey:.

I love the worker idea for the Mayans and will probably incorporate it into the once city game that they appear in. I dono about only buying techs with workers though. Althought they cost YOU over 100g each the AI only offers the old price (something like 30g) even for one of their own. The reason for this is obvious. You could set up an every turn or every other turn worker factory and make 50-100gpt off of it! Somone better than me would have to show me some math to convince me we could survive on DG or above with this restriction (hmmmmm..... you know, maybe if we really pointy stick researched a lot we could......).

I haven't tried the javelin thrower yet. My feeling is the Bowman at 20 shields is still better, at least how I used them (which is mainly as "spears") but I'm open to the Idea that this is completely faulty thinking. At least the enslave for 10 extra shields seems a lot more useful than the Numidian's 1 extra attack for 10 shields (compared to the Hoplite).

Starting to look like a Sunday start for this one. I want to wait for meldor and Ridgelake to get back and have a chance to weigh in on things before we start.

I'll try to get the Babs "mod" functional friday. Features are warriors upgrade to bowmen, we cant ever build spears, swords, cats, MDI, guerillas, or trebuchets, a "light crossbowman" available at Mathematics or Iron (3-1-1 with defensive bombard 30 or 35 shields) that upgrades to longbow, a "horse archer" similar to keshik but with defeniseve bombard ratrher than mountians/hills movement still 70 shields, and a Longbowman with real bombard, not just defenisve, and 2 defense (probably 50-55 shields would be appropriate since its no resources and an MDI/half cat unit). The only change for the other civs would be a flavor one in that they would build a "crossbowman" that is identical to the normal civ 3 longbowman.

If not, we can just use the good old normal babs. BTW, any comments on balance concerns with this mod idea are welcome. The concern that I see would be that all the units we'd be building would be resourceless until pikes, but I don't think its outrageously tiped in our favor since we'd likely load up on bowmen anyway.

One further thought. Maybe we should play 20 turns each the first time arround? I pitty the poor schmuck who gets stuck building a wonder his entire turn in our only city.We could keep it at 10 which would make it very low time commitment for a while. You guys tell me what you think.

The bab spacerace sounds reasonable to me now. I would not be opposed to the Sid game. A conquering/enslavement game could be next.

Demigod level.

Thats my 2 cents

Just an FYI;
I finally have Conquests in my hands. :)

Todd, I'd rather play a game that is less modded as possible so I'd prefer plain good'ol normal Babs :D
Thanks !

I should have made this clear in my last post. I agree with Skyfish in that I don't want to mod much if anything now. We have enough new things to learn without having to muddy them up with mods.

Ridgelake and Skyfish are probably right. Since there also a lot of changes with air power and naval warfare that occur later on, I'm thinking that OBC plain-Babs Spaceship would be the way to go, Std or small size. For turns, if you were still asking, 20 for first round due to our one-city-ness would be good.

Charis

PS Good deal Matt :P

Well, that's good because I'm not going to have bloody time to do it anyway. :lol:. meldor finally responded in pm and said he'd be back saturday evening. Ill be moving saturday and early sunday so I'll start it up sunday evening. Everyone has until then to put their 2 cents worth in. Looks like its a normal old Babs space race setup. Any comments or suggestion for tweaks to the rules need to be in by sat night. Ive revised the rules just a bit, mainly because I had a couple test runs that looked completely hopeless w/o these options.

When we can declare war:

1) VS a civ that has a city boardering our capital, or is at least closest to our capital and touching boarders with our "core" we may declare war at any time IF it is being done as part of the core expansion. The first time we declare on a particular civ in this way, we may accept alliances from other civs IF we do it on the turn we declare. ROP's may be made IF they are made as a part of the alliance deal (so that the instant the alliance dies they die too). For this first war we may do whatever we want to that civ for 20 turns, afterwhich we must make peace. We should be prepared to take whatever cities we need from a civ in one war if at all possible (its allways been easily possible in my testing). Reason for this change is to allow for a little "pointy stick" research. In a couple of my tests we fell HOPELESSLY behind w/o this.

IF we have to declare war on a civ a second time for core expansion, we can NOT get alliances and MUST make peace as soon as they'll talk to us after we have reached our objective.

After we complete the Apollo Project and have discovered Fission we may declare war on a civ IF it is the only feasable way of obtaining a needed space ship part resource (Aluminum, Uranium or Rubber). Razing and colonizing is the prefered. If the only feasible way to get the resource is to capture a city, then we are alowed to. Those cities may build ONLY the following buildings and never any units: Temple OR Colosseum (to expand boarders for flip prevention or to bring the resource in range), walls, and Civil Defense.

And last, If appears we are HOPELESSLY behind on our ship, we may declare war on our leading rival for the purpose of razing the capital or denying aluminum or uranium. No alliances allowed, we have to do this on our own, and we have to make peace as soon as we have crippled their ship building ability.

MPP still allowed, but we may not attack enemy units on their territory if we declare via this triggering.

If war is delcared on us, we can still do our worst to whoever declares on us, and we may make alliances and rop's riders with anyone as long as its done the first turn after war is declared on us.

Scoring: THREE points for keeping our capital the #1 city in the world at all times after its temple is built.

One point for for each part we finish ahead of our closest rival (maximum 3 parts), only if we dont declare "spaceship sabotage" war on anyone.

TWO points for not having to declare war on anyone as a "spaceship sabotage".

One point for conducting all our wars "alliance free."

One point for avoiding all RB "dastardly" actions other than war declarations.

Only Mod element remaining will be the map size (90 x 90) with 7 civs. I will generate a map in the editor but will only look at the minimap (ill cover up most of the screen to prevent spoiler info as much as possible) to make sure we are on a real pangea with all civs on the same landmass. Since I won't know which start is ours or any real terrain info it should be negligable to none info wise. IF when I load it up we have a horrible starting spot, ill just rinse and repeat. All map settings will be "small map" except its actual size.

Turns will be 20 turns for the first round (you can take 10 if you want, but are allowed 20), 10 turns after that.

All other rules/settings remain as originally posted.

How's this sound?

I am back. The game sounds good.

I am back from moving but about 4 hours later than expected and 10x more exhausted than expected. I'll get this one underway tomorrow night. Sorry for the delay.

Too much work today. I will definately get us started tomorrow. Here at least is a teaser for you. This was my 2nd attempt. The first one drew us a horrible marsh wasteland that would have been a challenge for a normal game.

That does look promising. Lets hope that water to the NW is ocean, not a lake. Colossus would be nice. With that Ivory, Statue of Zeus would not be a bad thing either.

Looks like a decent starting position, although as uber as high food would be. With a low #cities, an extra lux to sell is nice, although it might take forever for AI to get roads in place.

Ridgelake, I'm kinda hoping it's lake not ocean :P Higher food, and we're on a confirmed pangaea. I would probably move the worker onto the ivory right next to the water and see if it's 1 food (ocean) or 2 (lake), then decent where settler should go. We'll likely want to shift the settler to avoid wasting the bonus shield, and to make sure we're on fresh water (perhaps SW to river ivory). (Growing past 6 while building a wonder is very nice)

As far as what wonder, maybe you were thinking ocean for Colossus, but assuming we're going to be capturing a lot of initially small cities, Pyramids or Temple of Artemis would be great. And with the ivory and low wonder cost, Zeus would be great too. (I think Sirp's open SG game with one city for a long time built Pyramids and then got set up to go to war)

I would pop that hut before making a warrior btw (first build a worker might not hurt).

Charis

Pyramids would be superior to Artemis as we have cheap temples being the Babs. Plus Artemis expires IIRC.

I still say that the extra income from the Colossus will be huge for keeping up in tech. That outweighs the additional food from a lake, especially considering a harbor will get you the same food and will provide more secure trade routes. And looking at that start, we will be shield poor versus food poor once we are in republic.

Its all a matter of discussion anyway. Once Maniac moves the first worker, we will know which option we have.

Good points Ridgelake.
I agree with the points you made re the Colossus and a harbor.
If I was playing this game solo I would move the settler due west "4 on the numkey pad" hoping the water is salt. If it is, found there on the ivory. Leave the worker on the starting tile and start mining that BG.
Of course if the water is fresh then moving the settler to that tile looks pretty stupid. :lol:
Probably should move the worker first..............


I also agree with Charis in that we need to pop that hut before building a warrior, (Assuming founding doesn't pop it which it wouldn't settling due west of start). :)

Just my 2 cents worth.

Matt (hoping that water is salt.)

My plan is to build the Colossus if we can. However, my experience in C3C is that the AI is now UBER agressive at going after this wonder. Like, its been the FIRST wonder in EVERY game I've played. Conversely, the AI is not very fond of the Oracle anymore. I had one game where the GREAT WALL got built ahead of it (no kidding). My emperor game (I might post this somewhere if I ever get my other comp working. It would be a great read, especially watching all those modern age barbs sacking American colonies) I had the dreaded Colossus/Copernicus/Newton combo and I was an actual research power. I seriously doubit we can pull this off at this level.

The one wonder we could use the most though is The Great Library. I did have one test that we were ok w/o it BUT I got to pointy stick 5 diffrent civs and had Zeus.

Anyway, Im going to move the worker up the river to make sure we don't miss any cows/wheat, then likely move the settler due west. This keeps all the BG in range after the initial expansion, and plains are better than regular grass anyway (less turns to irrigate than to mine). AFTER the city is founded, I'll pop the hut. We can't build settlers, but maybe we can pop one to merge into the capital :lol:

If your praying for resources, pray we have either iron or coal near. If we have neither we are about sunk as I can't see how we afford both at steam. That's never happened in a test yet (allways had iron), but it could. If we don't have Aluminum or Uranium, we can cope, but no rails *shudder*.

OK, off to start it. :)

Edit: can't keep you in suspense. The water is salty. But we have ANOTHER grass game forest NW of the one in the teaser, and only 4 costal squares, one of which has a fishie :)