Realms Beyond Conquest 2 SG - Phoenicians of Mesopotamia

With this begins a run at the set of Conquests in the
Civilization 3 Conquests Expansion pack. Many of the scenarios
have a variety of civs, and there are other difficulties to try
so it probably won't be the only pass at the conquests, but
in order to give them a try, let's dive in (besides, several of
them are quite significantly shorter than normal games)

Game details for RBC2 (C3Conquests):
- Difficulty: Demigod
- Civ: Phonecians (Seafaring, Commercial), led by King Hiram.
- UU: Tyrian Guard, a Spearman replacement which is a lovely *3.3.1*
- Map: No choice, about medium size. 'Normal' aggression.
- Foes: Six other special civs in the area of Mesopotamia
- Victory conditions for player: wonder win (Victory points)

Roster: (Edit, was: Charis, Speaker, others TBA)
Charis
Speaker
Hotrod
Arathorn
ToddMarshall aka Maniac

All players will take 10 turns (was planning 20 for first, but with an
unexpected three settlers there was a LOT going on early). Here's the spot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-4000bc.jpg

[0] 4000 BC - So it begins...

The start is interesting in that we have *three* settlers, about 14 units and no
unit support yet. Founding fast will be important. We already know sailing and have
some Curragh on hand to explore the seas. The game is 'short term', ie 160 turns or
less with a goal of building wonders. So forget size 20, we need solid, low corruption
high shield size 12 cities and good tech researching/trading. Being seafaring, we'll
want mostly coastal starst. The lowest settler looks to be in a great spot where he
stands, so I'll want to settle there. The next one up has two wheats and lots of hills,
and is coastal. It's ideal, and with the shorter timespan it's proximity to the
first city won't matter too much. In fact, since it's more central and since the south
has more desert, we'll found there FIRST and make it the capital. The third settler
can either board the boat and head for what may be an island to the NW, or it can
settle down near the capital. One step NW will make it on a river. No one can beat
us to the island, so let's settle on the river/dyes.

Tyre and Sidon it is, how appropriate. Although, I have the order historically
reversed. I wonder if a nice 'Damascus' spot will appear to the east. The
warriors disperse to the four winds to explore. We have a good chance of being
centrally located trading moguls, given our seafaring, so let's explore aggressively.

Irrigation requires a tech?? Wow, let's start with that one. Both cities start
on a warrior, and Tyre with the higher food will do a granary soon.

[1] 3960 BC - Ugarit is founded on the coastal river next to fish and within
expansion of dyes.

(IBT) Barbarians already seen lurking in the shadows

[2] 3920 BC - First hut near Ugarit... angry fighter. (Oops, expect more on this diff)

[3] 3880 BC - Movin'

[4] 3840 BC - Exploring shows incense to East, and red borders. Second hut is fighters.

[5] 3800 BC - Yellow borders seen off to west.

[6] 3760 BC - Three more angry fighters from a hut, ouch.

[7] 3720 BC - On same round, three contacts simultaneously! Our curragh meets the
Mycenaens (Greece), warrior to east meets Babylon, and to west, Egypt!
Mycenae has two workers for sale, though I can't take advantage of eating
both. They have Warrior Code and Stone Working. Babs have Ceremonial and Stone,
and Egypt has Ceremonial. To Babs I trade Pottery for Stone and 10g. To Egypt
I trade Pottery for CB+10g. To Mycenae goes Pottery+CB+7g+2gpt for Warrior Code
and one worker. Thus I keep the monopoly on Woodworking. Burial Mound (Temple)
and archer are the new build options.

[8] 3680 BC - One warrior seals off the land bridge to Egypt, while the others
continue to explore, bracing themselves for more angry barbs. For a nice
change, we get 'Mining' (yes, you need a tech for workers to 'Mine' here!)
We're now dominant in techs and contacts. Speaking of contacts, the other civs
are supposed to be Sumeria (Tigris/Euphrates area), Medes (Persia) and Hittites
(near Egypt? Syria?) Sidon switches to barracks.

[9] 3640 BC - Ugarit finishes warrior, starts Burial mound to pull in the dyes.

[10] 3600 BC - Another barb killed, more exploring. Near home a worker moves on
to the wheat near Sidon intending to mine, and one moves onto a hill outside
Tyre to help finish the road (and perhaps mine). Soon we'll need to start a
long irrigation chain from the tiny fresh water lake (Galilee) down to Tyre.
It might take some chopping along the way.

Win conditions - it's a Wonder victory, and here are the seven wonders in the game:
* Colossus - Bronze Working
* Great Lighthouse - Navigation (and Stone)
* Hanging Gardens - City Planning (and Stone)
* Mausoleum of Mausollos - Mathematics (and Stone)
* Pyramids - Epic Work Projects (after Code of Laws, also needs Stone)
* Statue of Zeus - Astronomy (and Ivory)
* Temple of Artemis - Polytheism (and Stone)
Note in this game all these are *ancient* era except Math, at beginning of next era
To win we will NOT need a large number of cities, but a few very good ones which
can be dedicated to wondering building, while the others do well in commerce/science.
We'll surely want to found a city near Stone soon, preferably on a river. The spot
about 5 NE of Tyre which catches both stone and incense might be good, otherwise
East of Tyre is some stone and ivory together.

(Edit - Roster - Final list was TBA, with first preference to those who showed interest for RBC1 but couldn't fit that roster, or a conquest, including: Arathorn, Hotrod, Maniac, Ridgelake, Skyfish, Sulla, as well as FRFR players :p )

BTW, with 160 turns max, if 5 players, we'll see at most 3 turns each, possibly
never a war, possibly just a few hours total game time, so don't let "too busy"
keep you away :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-3600bc.jpg

3600 BC RBC2 Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-3600bc.zip)

:hammer:

Happy Conquests,
Charis

Burial Mound (Temple)
Check carefully - this may simply give you culture with NO happy help!

Got it.

To see the Hittites, go north (anatolia)

I'm interested in following this so I can find out all the different things about this game when I edit it to make a better version :D

BTW, I think Burial Mounds are just culture

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=1346349

Tnx Lee, Louis, good eye! :scan:

I actually did just want the culture from the mounds, but didn't realize there would be no happy face. That comes from a *separate* temple improvement, available with Mysticism. I've tried not to read much on the conquests, because the 'set' startups make almost any info on the map or strategy spoilerish (not referring to the mound info of course)

I would ask readers to avoid giving any info about the map itself (as XXIV's first line does ;P ) In this case, no harm since it's a historical civ we pretty much know the location of other civs, but otherwise we're trying to avoid learning things we shouldn't know yet -- this will apply to all conquest scenarios.

Of course, please do continue to point out things we might be doing better (or that we might be missing) -- all the players involved do like the learning aspect of the game.

Thanks again for the kind lurker comments, and best wishes to all running 'Conquest' games and SG's (especially Lee -- I'm torn between following your Japan game closely vs staying ignorant of the scenario :P )
Charis

Sorry about that. I'll avoid saying any spoilers. Although I don't think I can say much else anyway, since I don't have the game.

Charis I would rather play here as one of the 5 than be a sixth in RBC1. I will post as such in the other thread.

Hotrod

Well.... since im Alternated in RBC1 I think I'd rather just hop in here since I'd be guaranteed a slot. However I wouldn't be able to play till late thursday or sometime friday so please slot me accordingly.

ToddMarshall, Hotrod -- great, you guys are in, with Todd going 'last' in the lineup. That's four, so one more slot. I think Sirian is resting up for now and Sulla is passing on Mesopotamia. Arathorn and Skyfish (Ridgelake too?) mentioned possible interest on the RBCiv board, so we'll see if one or more can confirm here (I'll expand slots as needed, I don't want to see anyone show interest then miss BOTH RBC1 and 2. Or heck, we'll just start 3... slaps self... must... show... control!... :crazyeye: )

Louis XXIV -- no problem at all, was more a general comment that we're not looking for meta-game info. :cool:

Charis

It- I have never played with Charis, so I'm not sure what to expect, although I have read many of his games, so I suspect it will be like either following T-Hawk (always seems to be thinking along the same lines as me) or following Sirian (never seems to be thinking along the same lines as me). At this point, it looks more like T-Hawk than Sirian.

3560BC (1): Follow Charis' instructions re: workers. Curragh's find the end of the world, which is a bit odd. Makes sense from a realism standpoint, but not from a gameplay one. Drop science a bit to save money, but research at the same rate.

3520BC (2): Contact with Medes, sporting Xerxes face. They have 60 gold and know how to domesticate Animals, while we are up Ceremonial Burial, as well as Wood and Stone Working.

Here is where I run into a quandary. Both Egypt and Mycenae have 2 workers available and will trade them for Mining. According to Epic rules I don't think I could buy them, but I see these scenarios as being different than your typical epic? Before I go on I would like opinions/a ruling. If I was playing this SP I would probably do it, taking advantage of the adept trading I (by "I" I mean "Charis" here) have already done, however I don't want to violate RB rules or the spirit of RB rules, since none are in place for the scenarios as of yet.

As I see it:

Pro
If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game.

Con
If we buy all 4 workers we will likely easily win the game.

Will be able to play the game tomorrow afternoon, so until then...

To Be Continued

Ridgelake is out of town till the 13th. Hopefully we can save him a spot in one of the 2 games. Skyfish told me he usually only reads his suscribed threads now so maybe he could use a pm about the games being started. Todd is glad he has his usual "anchor" position in the lineup (expansion phase isnt my favorite part of the game....)

Edit: Just saw Speakers post. IIRC Demigod starts with 3 workers? If so normal Epics rules would let you buy one off each civ I believe. I've no problem with buying all of them in this situation if others don't however. The AI is now much better about replacing workers than when the exploit was originally listed also.

Speaker, thanks for checking on that -- good question!

To set the context if anyone is confused, "overbuying" AI workers is considered a 'no-no' in RBCiv Epics, as it is exploitative of an AI too dumb to know how much it is hurting itself.

The full explanation of the rule is found below, but I'll give my take as a more seat-of-the-pants rule: If taking advantage of a AI dumb move virtually cripples them, it's a no-no. As Speaker said "If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game." Bingo, so that's a no-no.

Looking now at Todd's edit, my answer was the same. At Demigod level (or deity), buying ONE starting worker from any civ is enough, don't buy more. (At Emperor or less, in SG's we don't buy one of its starting workers)

(Note people feel strongly on both sides of this issue, some see no problem whatsoever with buying these, others including Sirian have seen first hand just how bad it does damage the AI and shun it vigorously. For SP I wouldn't bark at anyone for choosing one way or the other, but for the 'common good' in Epics and SG's we do strive for a honorable highground which is neither cheesy nor legalistic. The Epics have a slighly greater emphasis on cheese avoidance, and the SG's a slightly higher priority to becoming too harsh or restrictive. Todd also points out that since the rule was first penned the costs and other factors have changed. In any case, whoever 'hosts' the game can tighten up or loosen things as needed, keeping with the the spirit of non-exploitative reputable play)

We'll go for no more than one starting/early worker purchase per civ for this and DG games in this series, unless otherwise specified. Thanks again for asking :goodjob:

Charis


PS for those still unclear... :crazyeye:

The RBCiv Epics page of Exploitative Tactics --
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

"Seed Corn": When the AI's sell off too many of their workers too early, they are selling off their civ's "seed corn", so to speak, crippling themselves for negligible short term gains. Short Version: overbuying AI workers is now officially an exploit! Long version: This aspect may be addressed through the expansion, but for now it remains a serious balance issue. Players may not knowingly acquire the last two workers from any AI civ, until the year 1000BC has arrived. At that point, any number of worker buys are allowed. Until then, players must restrict worker buying using their honest best judgment. Deity games allow for more worker trades than other difficulties, including buying one of an AI's three starting workers at any time. Emperor games should not buy any workers until the civ has had time to produce a third (they start with two), which will be at least 2500BC. Monarch games should just avoid all worker trade until 1000BC, unless you see specific evidence to make you believe they have at least three workers. Less experienced players may have difficulties adhering to this, just use your best judgment. Community veterans will know how to follow this edict. No stealing the seed corn from stupid AI's.

Well if theres room for one more..I'd like to try a scenario.

WB, Charis. As for your worker issue: Durring Beta YUMBO!, This was a problem. Not only for this conquest, but for ALL of them. The AI was all too happy to get rid of excess workers. I've yet to go out and buy my CD (I have my director to thank for that...), so I was unaware that this problem was not fixed. The Epics might want to put a subclause in the Seed Corn rule stating that when doing conquests, you cannot buy the workers. Just wanted to pop in with this little tidbit.

I'm still interested, if you'll have me. Not sure I was quick enough to claim a spot, however. Up to Charis' discretion as the game originator.

My $.02 on the worker issue (would be the same whether I play or just lurk) is to buy one from each civ. That might hurt them a bit (oh well) and help the human some, but as a designed feature in a short game.... Buying both is probably killer. Buying none feels like passing up too good of an opportunity. One/civ seems like a reasonable compromise (at 100+ gold value each, they're not dirt cheap either).

I think a nice way that Atari/Firaxis could/should have solved this would be to make worker buys only available with a certain tech (map making????). Oh well.

Arathorn

Arathorn, you're our fifth and last for this game, since you expressed interest previously in the pre-game RBCiv thread. Coffee, I hope to hook up with you in an upcoming one shortly. The game may be finished before Ridgelake is back and before Skyfish gets the game, so I don't think anyone will have to wait long for another one.

Glad to see that one worker from each civ works for you as well.
Having worker buys only with a certain tech? Gosh there's an effective and easy solution! Map making is the right 'time frame' for that, too. Equally easy and 'logical' would be to require a road network to that civ, although this would likely delay it quit a bit longer. Given comments by beta testers that this was a big issue, perhaps such a delay is justified.

Updated Roster for RBC2:
Charis
Speaker
Hotrod
Arathorn
ToddMarshall aka Maniac

Hopefully this will go well (and fairly quick) and we can pull new folks in for upcoming games.
Charis

[butting in]

I'm out for this game, so you all have fun with it. I would, however, like to set up and run the second game in the Conquests scenarios series for Rise of Rome, so I'd like to keep that in the back of everyone's minds.

I think a nice way that Atari/Firaxis could/should have solved this would be to make worker buys only available with a certain tech (map making????). Oh well.

I really, REALLY wish I had thought of that when we were beta testing. We could have used you, Arathorn. :D

[/interruption]

Ok thanks. I'll just have to monitor the RB threads more often. Next time then. Enjoy.

Sulla,

> I'm out for this game, so you all have fun with it. I would,
> however, like to set up and run the second game in the
> Conquests scenarios series for Rise of Rome, so I'd like to keep
> that in the back of everyone's minds.

:goodjob:

That sounds great! 'cept it won't be in the "back" of our minds, it will be time to start it before we know it :P (Once you and our other delayed compatriots are able to get the game) You clearly have the best background for it, so whatever parameters you set will be fine. I was wondering, however, with the fairly high interest if it would make any sense to run an 'A' and 'B', each with a different civ. That would be Carthage (which you desired) and either Rome as the flip side of that war, or one of the other two civs to reduce cross-talk possibility. (Comparisons between A and B would be most useful on the same difficulty lvl. If the lvls were different, it would be better for both to run as the same civ to see how much the lvl affects the play) If the A/B went well, it would probably spawn something like a multi-civ-drawn RBCiv Napoleonic Epic (later down the road!). What I don't have a good a feel as you might is which of the conquest scenarios would work best for this A/B approach. Speak up if there's one better suited, or if you think that would be too much too soon to set up for the 2nd conquest scenario.

If you do think an A/B pair of games would work well for this, we can pull discussion and signups to the the RBC Discussion thread, which I just opened --
RBCiv SG Discussion Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68410)

Charis

It- I have never played with Charis, so I'm not sure what to expect, although I have read many of his games, so I suspect it will be like either following T-Hawk (always seems to be thinking along the same lines as me) or following Sirian (never seems to be thinking along the same lines as me). At this point, it looks more like T-Hawk than Sirian.

3560BC (1): Follow Charis' instructions re: workers. Curragh's find the end of the world, which is a bit odd. Makes sense from a realism standpoint, but not from a gameplay one. Drop science a bit to save money, but research at the same rate.

3520BC (2): Contact with Medes, sporting Xerxes face. They have 60 gold and know how to domesticate Animals, while we are up Ceremonial Burial, as well as Wood and Stone Working.

Here is where I run into a quandary. Both Egypt and Mycenae have 2 workers available and will trade them for Stone Working. According to Epic rules I don't think I could buy them, but I see these scenarios as being different than your typical epic? Before I go on I would like opinions/a ruling. If I was playing this SP I would probably do it, taking advantage of the adept trading I (by "I" I mean "Charis" here) have already done, however I don't want to violate RB rules or the spirit of RB rules, since none are in place for the scenarios as of yet.

As I see it:

Pro
If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game.

Con
If we buy all 4 workers we will likely easily win the game.

Will be able to play the game tomorrow afternoon, so until then...

Continued

Notice we have already bought a worker from Mycenae, so I will hold off on buying another. Buy an Egyptian Worker for Wood Working. Trade Stone Working and Ceremonial Burial to Medes for Animal Domestication and 35 gold. Frag a barb camp in the middle of the desert. We now have a healty 66 gold in our treasury.

3480BC (3): Workers split up into pairs of a slave and native, one chopping trees, the other mining. Save some cash by dropping research while maintaining the same rate.

3440BC (4): Finish irrigation, start Bronze Working, due in 12 at max, which will give us Tyrian Guards and the Colossus. Mycenae and Medes both have Tribal Council, but lack Communications with the others. I'm hoping the other two will beline for TC and we can get it cheap.

3400BC (5): Babylon has a worker available but I don't think it's worth any of our techs @Monopoly and I think they'll get contact with Medes soon, so I don't want to give them trading opps.

3360BC (6): Frag a barb camp. Pick up Tribal Council from Babylon for Animal Domestication and 10 gold. with their borders a mere 7 tiles apart and a Medes scout running around, I decide to earn some money trading contacts, and get 50 gold from Medes for contact with Babylon.

3320BC (7): Tyre Granary => Barracks (will be helped along with chop and without lots of food we will need to mix in military). Frag another barb camp. Working on chopping for the irrigation chain. It may be easier to bring it south from Ugarit, since we already have roads there.

3280BC (8): Sidon Barracks => Archer. Popped hut gives a warrior.

3240BC (9): Ugarit Burial Mound (expansion in 9) => Granary (will be helped along by a chop in progress).

3200BC (10): Tyre chop helps barracks along, due next turn (vetoable to marketplace if so desired). Sidon's growth requires 10% lux, so Bronze Working is now due in 6.

Conclusion- All three builds are vetoable. Our land is not too fertile, so we'll just have to make the best of it. If we had a clear shot at the river the game would likely be over already. As is, I like our chances. I leave it in the more than capable hands of Hotrod.

RBC2 - 3200BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Hiram_of_the_Phoenicians,_3200_BC.zip)

I've got !

RBC2

3200 BC (0): :hmm: Yeah water is scarce plenty of food but no water to make it grow :). Will let the barracks complete to have a city to build units in between settlers. NOT sure the best coarse of action reguarding Wonders is prebuilding the ONLY way to go? Is research the key? Anyway will allow the the archer to complete, thought about swapping to granary but having some units onhand is not a bad thing. It is surprising to see such a large tech LEAD this early in a quasi Deity Game!! :D.

3160 BC (1): Trye builds a barracks, I like the new symbol :), starts an archer. New Contact the Hittites in the North. He has nothing and gets nothing. Egypt lays clain to silks and ivory in the south. More exploring with warriors and curraghs.

3120 BC (2): More exploring spot a blue boarder to the East. And boy imagine having Babylon lands on the Tigres river. Oh and the Hittites are settling in our direction due north on the river delta is the city of Kummanni. Need a settler to head to the dyes ASAP. Swap capital to warrior to free up city to build a settler next.

3080 BC (3): Trye builds a warrior starts a settler due in 6 :eek: turns. Contact with the final civ the Sumerians in the East. They have Cuneiform for trade now what do I have to give up soooo.... many choices. :lol: Well no tech on its own will get it. Lets consult the civilo. Been doing a lot of that lately. Well decide on Animal Domestication and Stone Working for Cuniform and 10 gold. Trade Cuniform to Babylon for Mysticism and 10 gold. Begin lumber project in the NE corner of Trye to try and get water to the city.

3040 BC (4): Granary gets 10 shields from lumbering, begin irrigation. Bw due in 2 turns at 50% we are soo far a head I am wondering the level.

3000 BC (5): Sidon completes an archer starts an other. Will swap archer with warrior on the choke. BW comes next turn. Pottery to the Hittites for a worker and 10 gold.

2960 BC (6): Learn Bronze working start on Astronomy. We are ahead by a lot and that is another cheap wonder tech albeit a dead end tech. Sell Wood Working to the Myceane for 118 gold.

2920 BC (7): Astronomy is due in 10 turns running -8gpt but we have 230 in the bank.

2880 BC (8): Nothing new to say.

2840 BC (9): Trye builds a settler starts an archer to use the 10 shields from the next turns chop. Then will being a Collassus. Sending the settler north. Irrigation is coming from the north.

2800 BC (10): Settler is heading north with an escort. This requires lux to go to 20%, Astronomy is due in 8 turns running -8gpt at 80%. Tyre Archer completes next turn then Trye should have a easy shot at the Wonder. Our tech lead is staggering :D.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-2800BC.zip

Anyone else have thoughts on why we have such a large tech lead?? Are the cards stacked for this particular civ? Do you get "help" from the start due to poor land. I think the fact that we had a second tier tech to START the game made it almost a foregone conclusion that we will be the tech leaders and never look back.

Couple that with free Curragh and you have early contacts and Monopoly on Contacts makes brokering a breeze. I am begining to think that these conquests are more and more suited for online play "human vs. human". I seriously doubt that the game level means anything. I can't prove it but I gotta believe that all the scenarios start out the same reguardless of levels chosen.

I may be wrong but isn't the largest advantage the Deity AI has is the extra starting units. How does that work in a conquest game where details of units and locations are predetermined. I would be mightly surprised to findout that if we were playing as Egypt that the Phoneocians (sp) AI had 1 unit different than we started out with in this game.

I guess what I am saying is should the conquests actually all be played at Diety or dare I say Sid. I honestly think the Demigod hole is not big enough.

If I am all wet just ignor my late night ramblings but I had to put my ideas somewhere. :D

Hotrod

I think the fact that we are the only Civ who got Curragh's out made a huge difference. Do the other Civs even have contact with each other yet? Hopefully this wasn't accidentally a Chieften game?

I may be wrong but isn't the largest advantage the Deity AI has is the extra starting units.

The largest advantage they have is the extra settler. The 40% discount is a big advantage in the pre rails era, less so later when the AI insists on growing size 30 cities at the cost of production.

Lets not say we have it in the bag yet. The AI does get a 30% discount on the wonders.... We probably win this going away from the looks of the save, but there is just too much we don't know yet to say for SURE that that is the case. I think you may be right about this civ's advantages for this scenareo though.

some contacts but not all have been made. I think that we have monopoly on 3 of the 6 contacts. There has been very little trading going on. I think we will have the Colossus all but done by the time they even get Bronze working.

I don't think it was a cheiftan game. They are building settlers and units quickly but they just didn't get the initial boost they usually get in a standard emperor/deity game (I think) because of the nature of the scenario. We are ahead in score if that tells you anything.

The other thing is the new tech tree. The AI may not put enough emphasis on the worker actions. Irrigation, mining are probably the most important techs at the start and some AI don't both or even 1 of them. Talk about stunting your growth. They just don't have them as priorities.

Todd: I didn't mean to imply that this is over but we are definitely on our way :D. This civ has a huge advantage IMO is what I am really trying to say. Your right maybe they will catch up due to the cost of the wonders. That may be the biggest LEVEL factor in this particular game.

Well, if the AI doesn't emphasize getting mining or irrigating thats a serious problem for them. It should definately go after those and domestication early since thats the only real way they can boost their cities. THAT may be the single biggest problem they are having. Getting a late start on boosting their cities sounds suicidal :(.

And yes, I agreed that this Civ seems to have the most going for it in this scenareo. Hopefully this turns out to be more challenging than we suspect right now.

Unless I am missing something though, getting 3 wonders should pretty much put the game in the bag. I can't see us not getting 3 wonders fairly easily unless we get dogpiled (seems unlikely) or something that we haven't anticipated about this scenareo causes us problems (also seems unlikely)

Got it.

Arathorn

If I could weigh in here on the balancing issues in this scenario without giving away anything, I would like to.

I've played this scenario through twice, and have found at least two other civs have really "killer" starting positions (in terms of fertile land rich in resources). The Phoenician lands look shabby in comparison. Phoenicians have the position and the contacts early on as an advantage, but other civs should catch up quickly.

From what I've seen, the Civs seem pretty balanced with different strengths and weaknesses in starting positions (key point coming up here) for a multi-player game. Unfortunately (as was pointed out), the AI suffers quite a bit from what you would expect at the high difficulty levels by not having more units and not being able to irrigate and mine from the get-go.
(That didn't reveal any spoilers, did it?)

OK, so I take a bit of time and try to familiarize myself a bit with the game. We have a significant tech lead, OK lands, boats galore, lotsa contacts, and only 3 cities. One settler in the north? Where's he going? To get wines and wheat, I guess.

My first major action isn't until turn 3, in 2720, when I start the Colossus in our northern river city. Killing the cascade ASAP and getting wonders is probably going to be key. So Colossus gets going immediately.

By turn 6, 2600, Sumeria has Writing. And I can turn down sci rate on Astronomy.

Probably the biggest turn was 2560, when Astronomy completed. I looked at my options, considered them carefully, and closed my eyes and picked...Masonry. Maybe aqueducts will turn out to be helpful. In a fit of pique, Babylon founds two cities quite near us, in lands that I was targetting for soon taking over. Military or just ignore? Dunno, but it won't be decided by me.

2480 sees the founding of Byblos near ivory (for Statue of Zeus, don't you know) and to get a second lux online soon, since the wines will be a while (3rd lux). Mysticism and 70 gold goes to Sumeria for Writing (Babylon has it now). Mysticism and Wood Working to Medes for 25 gold and a worker (hadn't purchases one of theirs yet and those two techs are fairly widely known).

2440 - Try to start Temple of Zeus and realize we have no stone hooked up yet. We have two in our cultural border, but neither is close to hooked up. That's OK...we're gonna need a few turns before our ivory city is ready to try building anything anyway.

2400 - Pop a goodie hut and get Horseback Riding. The nearest horses are quite a ways north, but it is a required tech.

I also note that curraghs have a transport capacity of one and want to pass this information along, as there are goodie huts on islands that WE should get. And I hadn't noted this fact before. A couple curraghs aren't too far from home and can maybe get to work on this. Founding on the islands might be wise as well...or it might not.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/rbc2-2400bc.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/rbc2-2400bc.jpg

Suggestions for next leader, compacted:
- Use curragh to transport troop to pop huts on islands
- Connect wine and stone in the north fairly quickly
- Have fun!!!

Arathorn

Wow, I get to play between Arathorn and Charis..... Meaning I'll have great leaves and somone to fix all my mistakes (no truth to the rumor this is why I allways ask to play last in Charis' games :p )

I see I am up but as stated earlier, can't play till sometime friday.

I played while sick, so I make no guarantees about lack of :smoke: moves, especially in this scenario. I already noted that I should've used the transport of the curraghs to pop some huts on islands.

Arathorn

Re: Tech Lead: Phoenicia always has the Tech lead in the beginning, for a good reason - the SEA trait. The additional commerce from the city squares makes the difference (just mod them to a different trait, and you'll see what an impact this has). I even managed to get 2 SGLs with them on Emperor early on.
But: This will change brutaly in the second era .... :D

Re: Wonder Victory: Though the game ends when all WoW are build, I would be very surprised if you get more than 2 or 3 on Demigod. This means, prepare for getting unit kill/ conquest VPs.
And, btw, 3 of the Wonders require a 2nd era tech - HG, MoM and the Great Lighthouse.

Re: Additional units: IIRC, the AI does not get any additional units in the Conquests, so the Worker purchase was not really p.c.

Re: Your territory - Ouch. They already poached you...:(

I already noted that I should've used the transport of the curraghs to pop some huts on islands.

Have you confirmed this?? There was some question about in LK56 as to wether they hold units or not.

Hotrod

Confirmed. Standard (epic) games default the curragh to no transport capability, but in at least two of the Scenario games they have been modded to be able to transport 1 unit.

Now that is something that should be in BIG BOLD letters. It may seem like a minor difference but could make a big difference. I didn't realize you could transport units in this scenario.

I got to thinking about it on about turn 8 or 9 of my turn, right-clicked the curragh to check the Civilopedia and saw that they had a transport capacity of one. I've not confirmed by loading a unit, but I did stop the silly exploration of sea squares to send them towards home base to get units. It seems incredibly likely that they can transport a single unit.

Yes, it should be much more obvious than it is. But we can still take advantage of it, I think/hope. It is a huge difference from the regular game, but I guess we players are supposed to be taking triple time to check all units (horsemen are 3/2/2, I think) and assume NOTHING.

Arathorn

Curraghs have a transport capacity of 1 in this scenario and in some other ones (like Middle Ages). They do NOT have transport capacity in the standard game. If you think that's strange, Medieval Infantry (MDI) have amphibious assault in Age of Discovery. :crazyeye:

OK, the first thing i do is take a casual stroll through the Civlopedia. I look at every unit and every building, and every wonder to try to make sure I understand what this scenareo is all about. The really BIG item other than transport by curraghs that stands out is The Statue of Zeus = Sun Tsu's, not the "main game" Zeus. It also stands out that those "great" 3-3-1 spears arent really so hot as the normal spear is a 2-3-1 unit.

Observations:

Pop those huts on the islands as previously mentioned. If we still get them, maybe the delay won't be so bad. We might get an expensive tech out of one of them.

Our lands truly suck. Most cities will be stuck at a really small size :(

We have no horses, and don't have the prospect of getting any as far as I can see. The nearest horses is a really long way north. Thats NOT good as mounted units look to me to be the way to go for sure in this scenareo.

We do have the tech lead but I don't find it as commanding as I thought from reading the thread. Three required techs is ceartianlly nothing to sneeze at on a high difficulty, but it isnt a stranglehold on the tree either.

Siddon is building a settler..... Where is there thats good to settle?? Probably we will want to claim those gems to the south before anyone else grabs them. I'd go for the horses but I dont't see a realistic chance we get them first.:( Maybe the close island is actually the next best spot. It's 7 tiles from the capital, same as Berytus.... Zoom to Berrytus, move a worker to the forrest and hope it gets 2 of 3 sheilds and.... nope, it wastes 2 of 3 sheilds. NOT good. Future government swaps will probably reverse this but maybe not everywhere thats 7 tiles away from the capital with the new corruption system :( OK, that's it, AKKAD HAS TO GO. We NEED to raze that site to free up room for 2 of our own cities keep up long term IMHO.

We'll just move our stack over there and...... umm.. we have no stack. :lol:. I'm so used to inherriting a huge army sitting arround in SG's it's a bit of a culture shock not to have one. Hmmm. We seriously need to reverse this problem soon.


Inherrited turn - MM Tyre from Plains to forest. Its in the 3-3-4 food cycle. This will finish the TG a turn earlier.
Interturn - nothing

[1] - We disperse a barb camp and take 25 gold. Continue exploring the wilderness with our warriors. Five scouting units seem a bit much now that we have all contact, especially with warriors being a 2/1/1 unit (and therefore having a decent chance vs a 3 defense spear and a great chance vs other warriors and archers, so I turn 2 of them arround and send them back with the intent of scoping Babylon out as well as possible on their way back. MM siddon to get the settler in 1 turn instead of 2. The odd food wont help us anyway. Lux to 10% for 1 turn to keep Siddon happy.

Diplo check: Babylon has a worker available. We haven't bought one of theirs yet. Its probably overpaying, but I ship them HBR @ 4th for it. Mycenae now has Sailing :eeek: They are sure to start making contacts soon and probably will steal that one hut. I note that the Hitites still don't know Cerremonial burrial, which is a first row tech, so i ship it to them @ last for their 50 gold.

IT - Nothing

[2] - Tyre TG -> Settler
Sidon Settler -> TG

Diplo Check - Mycenae now has HBR and contact with Hittites :(
Hittites now have HBR too.
Egypt, the last civ not to know HBR or have any contacts now has The Wheel. We ship them HBR for it :D. What a steal.

IT - zzzzz

[3] Byblos - Warrior -> Warrior

Diplo Check: Mycenae and the Hittites now know The Wheel

Pop a hut in the West Egyptian desert and we learn chariotry. This is a completely useless dead end tech to everyone but the Hitites and the Egyptians. Maybe we can get something of value for it, but I doubit it. Disperse a Barb camp near the Sumarians and take 25 gold.

Diplo Check: Hittites have only 25 gold, and Egypt is broke so no deal on Chariotry, then I notice something interesting.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2Pay.JPG

Why will Mycenae pay for a worthless, useless dead end tech? This makes ZERO sense. It's like the AI paying for a full price for Free Artistry after Shakes is built (which it doesn't do). I can't see any reason NOT to sell it for all they have. Deal done.

IT - Nothing.

[4] Berytus Worker -> Worker (vetoable. maybe a burrial mound would be better but... I really like lots of workers)

Diplo: Medes now has Sailing

Pop a hut over on the edge of the world behind the hitites and we get... Polytheisim! YUM! Are we sure we aren't playing on regent? Two huts/two techs seems too good to be true.

IT- zzzzz

[5] Tyre - Settler -> TG

Diplo Check - Eastern half of the world all know Diplomacy, Babs have also picked up Sailing. Try to traid sailing @4th for Diplomacyh at 4th and its not even close to an even swap.It takes about 80 gold on top of Sailing.They WOULD give it and all their 25 gold for the wheel, but as no one in the eastern area knows the wheel yet I don't want to do that deal. I pass for now.

Pop the hut on close isle and we get: A conscript HORSEMAN?!. Nice! If we can keep this unit alive and promote it that will be sweet.

Note that Wonder city is size 5 now and needs annother happy face. Bah. I should have sent the TG over there last turn :(. Lux to 10% for one turn to keep it happy.

IT - zzzzz


[6] TG arrives at Colossus City, lux back to 0%. ZZZZZ

Found Arvad on the coast SE of Byblos.

Time to call my gf.

When I return, I load up the game, click next turn we learn Masonry and...

IT- Z_Z-(zzz) .... -_- .... o_0 .... ((O_O))

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SciLeader.JPG

(Note: Shouldn't scientific leaders be OFF in this scenareo?)

Still nothing on the diplo front.

[7] Research started on CoL at 100%. It is due in 8.

Stone still 1 turn away So I leave the leader sitting.

Leader Fortified in Tyre. No stone yet anyway.

Diplo check reveals Sumaria has a worker available. I ship then Sailing and 4g for it. Every other civ Except egypt knows this tech by now. Medes now knows Cuneiform. Sumeria was the LAST civ we hadn't got a worker from, so worker buys are now off the table (is there a point when we can buy more? maybe 100 turns into the scenareo?)


IT- Stone is hooked up

[8] ZZZZZ

Diplo check... Crapola. The east/west contact barrier has been broken. Hitites and Medeans now have contact with everyone except Egypt. The Myceneans still lack contact with Babylon and Sumer but you know that can't last long. Medeans shows up with the Wheel, Hittites with Chariotry, and :eeek: the Myceneans with Mining.
Ship the Medeans Mining, Chariotry (worth like 30g to them but useless) and 44g for Diplomacy. Not sure if this was good or bad. Diplomacy seems to be a "government tech" like nationalisim so the AI overvalues it. With the Myceneans having both these techs I figured they would make this deal with them soon if I didn't. Sell Sumer contact with Mycenae for their 32 gold. Again, I figured they would have it soon from either the Hitites or the the Medeans.

I hold off on using the leader. In fact, Ill let Charis use it after some team discussion because I don't see a 2 turn delay on rushing a wonder as anything to worry about.

IT- zipo

[9] zzzzzz

Unload a warrior over on the far island and we learn construction........ the prng is tryng its best to remove all challenge from this scenareo?!?.........

IT - zilch

[10] Tyre - TG -> Temple of Artemes
Sidon TG -> Settler

Acco founded down by the gems mountian.

I know what I think we should do, but you guys tell me. I'd swap the Colossus build to the Statue of Zeus, Rush the Temple of Artemes in the capital, then swap the Capital to the Colossus. We could build a stream of TG's out of Sidon and . If we get all 3 wonders we can probably cruise home with a military campaign vs somone.

Notes. Workers are concentrating on roading up to our gems city and our wines city at the moment. Once we have these (and the Temple of Artemes?) Hooked up we should be in good shape for happiness for a while. We are "average" militarily vs our 2 neighbors (Babylon and Egypt), though we have several warriors rather "out of position" because they are exploring. Probably time to bring the boys back home in case something nasty happens. Remember, we can now negotiate MPP's if somone declares on us. It is also time to start thinking which government we want to switch to. Both have 2-4-8 unit support. Oligarchy offers lower waste and corruption, but 2mp, war wearyness and pop rush. Monarchy offers the same corruption we have now, but 3mp and cash rush. Our econ blows so bad right now I dono if cash rush is good for the forseeable future. I would probably tend to favor Oligarchy but perhaps I'm missing something.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-Phoenicians-2100BC.SAV)

I forgot that editing the last post in a thread doesn't bump the thread or register as "activity" on this board so "bump".

Edit: I just noticed something rather interesting.... The Tribal Council tech we learned on Speaker's turn offers a better government: Tribal Council. All the AI are in it and it never occured to me that we WERENT in it or to look until I noticed on the pic I uploaded it said Despotisim.

Maybe it was discussed somewhere I overlooked and it was decided TC wasn't worth revolting to. It offers less unit support (one less per city) and still has the tile penalty, but corruption and waste are less and allows 3mp.

As we have been slogging along for roughly 35 turns post TC acquisition still in despotisim, I'd suspect that it isn't worth bothering to revolt to now for sure since we can have Oligarchy in probably 15-20 turns. Just thought I'd bring this up.

-Maniac

Wow! Nice Round Todd ! With the leader we are almost assured at least 3 wonders. This is Demi-God right! :eek: :D

As the government swap I think Monarchy is the way to go if we have the economy and the extra happiness of the additional MP. But given our smallish sized cities two MP's may be enough. The question is can we avoid military action all together or do we have to take it to the Babs and hope to avoid the DogPile?

Scientific Leaders are a big boost. Make libraries and researching quickly a bigger priority for sure.

Hotrod

As far as TC I didn't even see it as an option :blush: The Civilopedia continues to be a wealth of knowledge. I'm not sure if I like the fact that almost everything changes with Scenarios. Makes playing them more interesting but unfortunetly things like TC and curraghs get missed.

Well, before you say that Monarchy is the way to go, remember waste and corruptiuon in Oligarchy = Republic. Two MP should be plenty, as right now 2MP has us OVER our support limit (which will drop by like 7 if we change to TC and by like :eeek: 14 if we swap to Oligarchy/Monarchy) Right now we are getting eaten alive by waste and corruption. Our colossus building city would lose 4 of 11 shields for example and its only like 4 squares from the capital.

It looks to me that what we are doing right now ammounts to a gambit in this scenareo. We have almost NO infrastructure cept for one burrial mound and a couple graineries. Militarily I'm worried. We don't have much. I tried to address this but really couldn't because our production is SO low. Warriors are going to be TERRIBLE city defenders because they are 2-1-1. ie. the ATTACKING warrior has the advantage (also of note is that the standard foot barb is 2-2-1).

We have a whole THREE TG's, 2 Archers, and one non replacable conscript horsie. All but our starting 3 citties are defended by a lone warrior, and we have 5 warriors out scouting, 3 of whom are at least 20 turns from home. If we got dogpiled..... Well, we wont... YET. We are the tech leaders so wed found embasies and buy friends. I am, however, surprised NO one has come demanding anything yet, or even worse (that IS the Hammer over there afterall). I'm sure they will soon..... BTW the more I think about TG's the more I think they are a bad unit. Your only decent early defender costs 50% more than everyone elses but offers NO extra defense (YIKES!) Immagine if NM's cost 30 sheilds and were a 2-2 unit and you have a reasonable comparison.....

We really need one city, or even better, 2 cities dedicated to building nothing but military for a long while imho. Rub is definately right. We can't hold this lead forever with what our civ looks like right now. maybe we can hold it for 30 turns, but once they catch us, we'll be left in the dust. We pulled 3 techs from huts in 10 turns and made one obscene steal (HBR at last for The Wheel @ 2nd) and we barely have more of a lead now than when the turn began despite doing 100% defacit research.

Definetly think that 2 MPS are enough and agree that Monarchy may not be the best choice. I am not a fan of pop rushing in later stages. I also think our TC is weak for the value and when the choice came to build TC or archers I choose the archer.

It is a gambit to push on wonders but I think that is the name of the game here. Given the "Wonder" victory condition how could you not make wonder building and 100% research a priority. The new advent of Scientific leaders makes research all the more a priority. Pre-Conquests wars were often fought soley for Leader fishing and not just to build Armies.

OT: The new Leader structure and abilities may change how games are played and would definitely make AW games more of a challenge. If you can't rush wonders with you leader what good are they. An AW game without leaders is difficult at best just see Sirian's report from the China AW game at RBD. It was leader poor.

Swapping now to Military builds solely to claim more land now from Babs is a good Idea IMO and if we can maintain a strong core we can continue to be a front runner in tech. 5 or 6 strong size 6-12 cities can win this game. Make all cities as productive as possible and prioritize core cities for wonders and the outer cities for military.

Hotrod

During the Beta, I played that Conquest about 20 times, and won with every Civ at least on Emperor, so I feel qualified to give some clarifications:

On governments: Despotism in Demigod means a city that is 6 tiles away from the Capitol has 50% Corruption and Waste (OCN not exceeded) - this is strikingly more than on Emperor, but about the only real difference. Tribal Council is a little better, but this could mean up to 6 turns (out of about 130!) in Anarchy....NEVER do that unless you're REL.
Monarchy is a little better than Oligarchy, but comes several expensive Techs later - I really suggest to switch to Oligarchy ASAP, and stay there.

And an important point: You may have Tech parity right now, but the 2nd and 3rd era Techs are far more expensive...and there are 3 SCI Civs out there, and Philosophy! This means all the AI Civs will be about 1000VPs ahead of you because of that later. No Techs above Navigation and the Companion Infantry Tech are needed for you (unless you miracously manage to get Horses), but the VPs are...
Consider all 7 WoW together only give about 3500 VP, and you'll notice how important Conquest VPs will be.

Note 'Wonder Victory' doesn't mean the Civ with the most WoW wins, but the score leader when the last WoW is built - I won on Demigod with one single wonder, and I lost on Emperor before I realised that with 5 out of 7...

The Colossus will trigger your GA, are you sure you want that still in Despotism? I usually skipped it because of that, it's the cheapest WoW anyway.

I don't feel like I have enough information to give a good opinion on governments.

I do think we will need to go hammer on the Babylonians (or north to get horses) fairly soon. A military build-up is almost definitely called for.

I wish the intro explained these things a bit better -- finding them out on the fly is a bit disconcerting. Maybe I should resolve myself to a more in-depth Civilopedia examination at the beginning of each scenario.

Arathorn

I wish the intro explained these things a bit better -- finding them out on the fly is a bit disconcerting. Maybe I should resolve myself to a more in-depth Civilopedia examination at the beginning of each scenario.


Ditto !

So far so good, and it's nice to see our tech lead parlay itself
into a sci GL.

Hey! It seems the *Babylons* intercepted and read my city thoughts --
"The spot about 5 NE of Tyre which catches both stone and incense might be good,
otherwise East of Tyre is some stone and ivory together." Akkad is smack on top
of the first and Uruk near the second. Akkad must be ours -- the question is WHEN.

(Actually... ask yourself these questions right now. i) would you choose to attack
right now if you were playing? ii) If Babylon demanded tribute, what would you do?
Don't continue reading until you answer these for yourself :p )

We're on top with Victory Points, ok with power, near lowest on score. Mil is
avg compared to all but Sumerians. We have 3 TG's, 11 warrs, 2 archers, 1 horse.
We have the Colossus due in 9, cool! Artemis can be rushed now. Todd recommended
shifting Colossus to capital and shifting Ugarit to Zeus (due there in 27-31)
Normally I would take the bird in the hand, but... no other civ has even started
any wonder?? That makes the swap not-too-risky. Which city would do better from
the Colossus bonus? The capital, slightly, due to corruption.

Great Wonder costs:
150: Colossus, Mausoleum
220: Lighthouse (most advanced tech), Hanging Gardens (3 techs needed)220
280: Zeus
300: Pyramids (2 more techs needed)
340: Artemis

[0] 2100 BC - Artemis rushed
[1] 2070 BC - It arrives, cap switches to Colossus after Ugarit to Zeus.
Every city will have a culture expansion in 4 turns, woo!
Babylon has Code of Laws, but every civ is about 5 techs behind. We're only
3 turns from CoL, so we'll wait.
[2] 2040 BC - Quiet
[3] 2010 BC - Babylon demands communications with the Egyptians?!? Their
military is no larger than ours. The prudent thing to do is cave in.
But... they demanded on the wrong watch!! I DEFY them to declare war!
They do?! Bring it on!

:hammer:

We move three units next to Akkad. We have almost no troops for this war.
Our main hope is that we can do some dmg and they won't reach us with any
kind of stack within 8-10 turns. (Mycenae shows up with CoL, and we're due next)
We pop a hut that gives us... angry warriors.

[4] 1980 BC - We start Oligarchy next, as it will get us first to new Era and
the HG tech. Epic works would be good too.
Outside Akkad, archer takes out a Bowmen with no dmg.
The horsemen wounds the second bowmen, but must retreat. Tyrian Guard goes
up against this hurt bowmen and...

GOLDEN AGE!!! (for us, that is :goodjob: )

Sure it's in depotism, but it will further accelerate our wonder race and
help with the war. I rearrange all tiles to try to get each one using a shield.

[5] 1950 BC - The Temple of Artemis causes a massive border expansion all around :P
At Uruk we defeat one bowmen with out superior TG. Some more units move up.
Out East, our scouting warrior sees a *warrior*-settler pair move by on OPEN
ground. SmmmmmACK! Two workers, though they may never reach home.

[6] 1920 BC - Alas, the bowmen returns fire on the warrior. We actually see him
redline, but then our warrior dies. That means the Babs are in a GA now too.
(Although, better now than later, imho) Our other western scout finds a hut with...
more angry fighters.

A TG vs Bowman ends up with... Uruk autorazed! :hammer:
We also hit a warrior out in the open with one of our warriors and win.

(Sir, doesn't it worry you that six of your eight cities are undefended?
And the other two have reg warriors in them? Hmmm... you're right. Order
up more paper cutouts IMMEDIATELY!)

[7] 1890 BC - Mycennaens start the Colossus. That's the first AI to try something.
Alas, we have Colossus due in 6, and Zeus in 11 :P

Trouble behind Acco, and a newly built TG from Byblos must run there.

(IBT) Our scout horse is attacked by a warr and retreats. Then a bowman comes
to finish him off, but dies, promoting our conscript to reg :lol:

[8] 1860 BC - The rest of the world is finally doing some trading. Most are behind
3-4 techs instead of 5 now. They lack contact with Egypt :P

[9] 1830 BC - Our culture via Artemis expands the captured city Akkad and we pull the
incense in range. (Wow, what a great warmonger wonder :P )

We take out a warrior, and can now see Ninevah not far away.
This scares Hammurabi - he'll offer Eridu, Samarra, AND Ellipi for peace!!
(He's insulted by size 1 Eulbar alone, which means it's on a hidden resource)

(IBT) A bowman takes out a warrior but is exposed. Three units head toward Ninevah.

[10] 1800 BC - We lose an archer, but kill two bowmen. In the process we are looking
VERY red and hurt.

Our offense is gassed and their reinforcements are arriving. It's time for
peace. Although they 'doubt they'll give' a larger city, they will still part
with the three smaller ones, so we take Ellipi, Eridu, Samarra, and a worker
for peace. Of course, they're all size 1, no defenders. 8-\ But... they'll
have culture and an expansion in five turns :P

One last movement up there shows we were just two squares from Babylon,
invisible over the hill! We had just 3 warrs and a TG, so it wouldn't have
fallen, but no doubt this was a fear inducer.

Notes for next leader:
- Ugarit is only 'sad' city requiring 10% lux. Get a MP unit there ASAP.
It's in "food deficit" mode due to the GA shield bonus. Don't let the city
shrink, but do continue to get max shield output for Zeus and free rax.
Gah... speaking of which, I change the rax due soon in Akkad to
- Acco has a barb camp near it and a TG healing waiting to take it out
- Try to build a settler to re-found the ruins of Uruk!! I just swapped Berytus
to settler for this, although he might very well want to found a city in
the gap towards Samarra in order to connect those cities. Although corrupt,
Samarra has two wheats and is on river. Would make a nice FP rush spot.
Hmmm, connecting the empire to them is key. So I put Sidon onto a settler
too (for Uruk ruins)
- Oligarchy is due next turn with our corrupt scientist. I would probably ignore
that since we're in GA, and wait for Monarchy. Note next turn we'll be alone in
the Iron age. :D
- As for our next research project, it's up to our next leader. Epic Works, Monarchy,
and City Planning are all good choice. Crank up research to near max next turn.
- Our victory points shot way up to 1700, compared to Medes 345. Our culture also is
through the roof. Careful though, our power and military are still lousy!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-1800bc.jpg

RBC2 1800BC Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-1800bc.zip)

Speaker <-- UP
Hotrod <-- On deck

Good luck, and with the Babylonian blight decimated, do well! :hammer:
Charis

PS I played during, and hence missed, the four posts above. Had to chuckle at
Todd's worry that we would get beat up on, and... sheesh, Doc, we can lose this
scenario on score with all wonders and a monstrous VP lead???? Rasperries at that
design, but our future leaders will have to keep this in mind. Our score stinks atm.

EDIT -- And regarding the 'poorness' of 3.3.1 - it was precisely the 3 attack that less us eat the Babs 2-def Bowmen for lunch.

PPS *100* turns to go, that's *IT*

we can lose this
scenario on score with all wonders and a monstrous VP lead????

Don't worry, was talking about VP score, of course.

But the VPs from 5 Wonders aren't enough when Babylon overrruns half of Medea and Sumeria as well as finishing the Tech Tree while you just have the useful second era Techs, and then Hammurabi builds the Lighthouse before you even get to Navigation...don't forget all Civs except for Phoenicia spend half of the game with the 4 uprisings.
Anyway, as long as there are no AI wars, you can win in builder's style.

Got it. A heads up though, I probably won't be able to play until tomorrow.

No rush as I have LK57, RBC3b to play next.

Answers i) no, and ii) I'd tell em to blow it out their arse (we were avg compared to them so no way I'd cave). I must say I'm rather impressed by how well we did though. The 1 city capture doesn't surprise me, but that we now own about half of Babylon does. Prolly shouldn't be surprised, thats pretty much what allways happens on one of Charis' turns :).

Edit: as to the usefulness of the extra attack on the TG, I've no doubit it's useful. Those are what I built on my turn because they had the best offense and best defense so I couldn't see building anything else (especially as we had NO defensive units at the time i inherrited). I just think that for 60 shields I'd rather have 2 archers and a spear than 2 TG's. I am, as allways, open to the possibility that this is faulty thinking however :crazyeye:

It- Great setup by Charis. Looks like I will be in coast mode. From cities is 73. Babylon demands we move our troops or declare war. Uh, ok Hammi, the war did end last turn. Start City Planning, due in 6 at max to have a wonder to be working on when ours finish.

1770BC (1): Our victorious army moves back toward home.

IT- Mycenae demands contact with the Egyptians. They are so far away and I refuse to break the Egyptian monopoly for them, especially on their turn, when they can trade it around. I have no fear that they'll be able to cross the sea and hurt us.

1740BC (2): Finally sack that barb camp south of Acco. Colossus is due next turn in Tyre, so I mm a bit for more gold.

1710BC (3): Tyre Colossus => Aqueduct (prebuild for HG). Sidon Settler => TG. Byblos TG => TG.

1680BC (4): MP arrives in Ugarit, so the lux tax drops to 0. Start moving some troops to the north in case Mycenae decides to try anything.

IT- Captured cities expand borders.

1650BC (5): Nothing much.

1620BC (6): Babylon moves 8 Bowmen into our territory. Hope they're not planning anything because we can't repel that firepower. Bertyus Settler = Courthouse (vetoable). Trade Egypt the first-tier Cuneiform for 51 gold and they are now polite. City planning is due next turn so I drop science.

1590BC (7): Finish City Planning and start Monarchy at max, due in 7. Found Kition in the ruins of what I guess to be Uruk. Tyre switches to Hanging Gardens, due in 11, but will take a bit longer after the GA ends.

1560BC (8): Curraghs are scouting around Mycenae watching for troops leaving on boats. None seen so far.

IT- Medea signs a MA with Mycenae against us. They must have traded something for it. I think Medes is way too far away to do any damage to our real cities, although the Babylonian lands might be in danger.

1530BC (9): Zeus finishes in Ugarit. Starts Palace as prebuild for Mausoleum or Pyramids (which Mycenae has now started). Build an embassy for 37 gold in Hattusas (Hittites) to try to improve relations. Hattusas is size 1, building a settler due in 6 :smoke: and is running 100% science with a garrison of 2 spears and only a palace built. What has the AI been doing? Build an embassy in Ur (Sumeria) for 34 gold, protected by 4 Enkidu warriors and an archer, building a spearman, has built a barracks, running 60% tax and 40% science, size 2. Sumeria is now polite with us, while the Hittites are still annoyed. Trade Astronomy to Sumeria for Epic Works Projects and 9 gold. Astronomy is a dead end tech with no wonder, so it's no skin off our back. Ugarit switches to worker housing (increases shields by 50%) before starting another wonder, though this is vetoable if need be. Tyre is switched to the Pyramids, due in 14. This situation should be watched carefully.

1500BC (10): Found Carthage to the north, pulling in horses with the border expansion, and consolidating our empire a bit, although there is still a large gap. MP is on its way. Gems next to Acco are now hooked up, so we have 4 attached luxuries and incense should be hooked up within the next 10 turns.

Conclusion- VP lead is now 2895 to 450. Have caught up in regular score, now in second place. Government change after the GA is over will be a big help I suspect. Sorry about the mini dogpile. Mycenae will talk peace, but wants something for it. I'll leave that up to Hotrod. From Cities is now 95, an increase of 22, or 30%. Oops, wrong game. :p Unfortunately we are not benefiting from the Colossus bonus of yet. Our income should shoot up with a switch to monarchy. Keep building up our military and we should win by a landslide. Have fun!

RBC2 - 1500BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-MesopotamiaPhoenicia-1500bc.zip)

I've got in! In line after RBC3b

I know I am over but I am posting from WORK so I will not be playing tonight. Will definitely play tomorrow.

Hotrod

1500 BC (0): We are still in despotism but Monarchy will be known in 3 turns. As soon as the Golden Age runs out I will revolt if I think we can still ge the pyramids. IF not we have to let that complete first. It is due in 13 and we can't waste turns in anarchy.

1470 BC (1): The "war" continues but I don't foresee any fighting on my watch we don't have the units to make a move on the Medes. A few TG's maybe we can take a city but we won't have the reinforcement to make sure we don't lose the cities we leave. Monarchy in 2 turns. Not sure if Worker housing is a bet cheaper option than the already started courthouses. Will check out Ugarit once the Worker House completes.

1440 BC (2): Monarchy next turn. FYI hops are 2.4.1 Continue moving TG's to the front lines. More civs start on Pyramids. We are 11 turns away but I can't see how far Maceyans are because we are at War. Well considering that Dendra is on the coast I think it is far behind us. And the Pyramids are going to be ours. I will still wait for the GA to complete and then rethink our Pyramid postion.

1410 BC (3): Learn Monarchy and start on Mathematics for the Moseouleum. I didn't revolt. Okay someone has learned the last 2 techs and we have uprisings. And the barbs are nasty, they are 3.2.2 Mounted fighters and 16 per camp. Trade Construction the Hittites for 100 gold. Myceane picked up Alchemy as a free tech, time to talk peace. We give up Polytheism he gives us 100 gold. Will start on HG once the Worker housing is completed.

1380 BC (4): Sidon builds a TG starts Worker Housing. Byblos builds TG starts another. Our Golden age is over. Pyramids are due in 9 turns. Will wait for the revolution. We are up Monarchy and city Planning over Hittites, Sumerians and Mycenae. No 2frs so hold off on picking up Alchemy.

1350 BC (5): Math is now due in 6 turns. Medes units are approaching from the north. Samarra is in trouble with only 1 warrior in the town.

1320 BC (6): Ugarit builds worker housing and starts on HG. Due in 22 turns. Our city in the north is burned to the ground. Our warrior is killed by a conscript warrior. TG's are on th way.

1290 BC (7): Dial up the Medes and he will take peace for 120 gold. I will try to take a few of his units with the new TGs in the area and see if he'll talk then. Following the end of the GA we have 11 turns on the Pyramids. Investigate our closest Competetor. Build an embassy in Mycenae. Investigate Dendra for 64 gold and see Pyramids are due in 24 turns. [dance]. :hmm: okay the GA is over we have a 13 turn lead over the Mycenae. I bite and go for a revolution. Check for whip possibilities but there are none. [dance] we draw 4 turns.

1260 BC (8): Kill a conscript warrior and promote a TG to elite.

1230 BC (9): Kill an archer move a few TGs.

1200 BC (10): Promote another TG at Carthage. Kill an archer near Elipi. We will be a monarchy in 1 turn. Incence are online and we have 5 native luxuries. Egypt is still unknown to everyone but they will pay all there gold to meet her. Medes will talk peace but it will cost us, he also just picked up Monarchy will trade our around. Mycenae has Monarchy too :( can't give him Monarchy for Alchemy. Holding onto city planning for now. Trade Monarchy to Sumerians for all his gold 136, better to us then to Mycenae or Medes. Poly a worthless tech now to Egypt for he 70 gold. Hittites only have 34 gold so I hold onto it for a bit longer.

Here is the save:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-1200BC.zip

We have 562 gold, research is on Math and we are sitting at 2995 VP. We are at the half way point turn 80. Only 4 wonders remain and we can build 2 of them the third can start as soon as Math completes.

Got it. Should be able to play tonight, I believe.

Arathorn

I broke our monopoly on Egyptian contact to get Iron Working, Alchemy, and some cash. And we're a Monarchy. Hmmm...forests give 3 shields in this scenario. Interesting.

Gained and lost no ground in the war with Medes. At one point, though, Babylon declared against us because of an MPP. We couldn't see this due to lack of embassies and it was reasonably unexpected. The southern border with Babylon is safe, but the north is a bit dicey.

We did get a MGL in 1080 BC. He's now an army moving towards our core to be filled with companion infantry hopefully soon. After Mathematics came in, I started on Military Training to get us better troops.

I had a horrible year in 1040. Bab bowmen attacked tirian guards fortified in a town across a river and mowed them down like there was no tomorrow. 3 *regular* bows attacked an elite tirian, a vet tirian, and a vet warrior all fortified, all across a river, and lost 1 hp total. OUCH. We lost a city to Babylon. Sigh.

Also, after the Pyramids completed in 1020, Dendra of the Myceneans completed Hanging Gardens in a cascade. We're going to get the Mausoleum next turn, though.

Beyond that, companion infantry/swordsmen and aqueducts should be the orders of the day. WE're still comfortably ahead in VPs and need only avoid stupidity or overreaching to not lose.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/rbc2-1000bc.zip

Arathorn

I see it. It id in queue after RBC3a. Sounds like its all pretty much going according to plan. A little conquest and the Lighthouse should be enough to end this I'd wager.

Haven't died, just been busy. Will play tomorrow night for sure.

OK, preturn checks show us only down Currency to Medes and Mycenae, but we have Math on them. We are absolutely DUSTING the other AI in tech.

We still need almost 1500 VP to put this puppy to bed, but MoM will complete next turn giving us about 1/3 of that total.

Milityarily, we could be doing better, but it ain't too bad either. I'm still not sure why we went to Monarchy rather than Oligarchy. Oligarchy offers lower corruption and waste. I understand that cash rush is nice but we are doing virtual defacit research so ummm....

Well, the current plan I have is this: Finish MoM, finish MT, then beeline the lighthouse techs and win this sucker.

Preturn: I veto the Alchemist shop. (which was a mistake)

IT- Babs kill a couple units and a LOT of bowmen start showing up :( That Archer SOD that Medes has is kinda worrying too. If we had the means of counter attacking it, it wouldnt, but we don't.

We complete MoM :)

[1] Ugarit - MoM -> Palace
We trade a few units with the babs. The RNG wasn't very kind.

IT - Egypt demands one of the 2 contacts they lack... GRRR. I don't want piled on so I cave :(

[2] Time to do some math. We currently need 1005 VP to finish this. The lighthouse is worth 550 (220 shields X 2.5) VP. Each tech we get is worth some VP (at least 55 from here on out) also. I think we can win this by building The Lighthouse, getting some techs, and maybe a short quick strike war on the opponent of our choosing on OUR terms.

Peace, Math, and WM to Medes for Peace, 20g, Currency and Cartography
Peace and WM to Babylon for Peace and WM

The new techs bring us to 4600 VP. So we only need the lighthouse + 350.

Research restarted full blast on Ship Building, due in 7.

IT - Nothing

[3] - [7] Nothing exciting - Building Companion infantry for the Final over the top war. Building Ducts in Tyre and Sidon

[4] Carthage - Worker -> Worker

[7] Tyre completes duct, starts on Worker Housing.

IT - zzzz

[8] Ship Building comes in, giving us annother 55 VP. We have it first :). Research started on Navigation at 90%, due in9, which is one turn before the prebuild. I probably started prebuilding way too early :(. Oh well, better early than late.

SB to Hittites for WM 130g and 6gpt
SB to Medes for 150g
SB to Mycenae for WM and 160g
SB to Sumer for 133g
Then I sell WM's arround and get annother 61g

That should be enough to fuel research for a while :)

[9] Nothing special

IT -nothing

[10] Mycenae now has Architecture at monopoly for 900 or so. No point in buying yet.

Game Status.

VP now stand at 4655, leaving us just 845 to go. We can get the tech for the lighthouse in 6 at 100%. The Palace prebuild finishes in 8. The lighthouse tech should be more than 55 VP because it is more expensive than the techs we have been getting. Even assuming it is 55...

4655 - current
+550 - Lighthouse
+ 55 - Navigation
+ 55 - Architecture (I'm sure it wont be prohibative after its fairly widely known)
____
5315.

Capturing/Razing a size 2 city or two size one ones would give us the 5500 VP. Of course, I just realized the game ends when all 7 wonders are built anyhow (all this math for nothing DOH)...... SO, the game should be over when the Lighthouse finishes in 7 turns so. I SHOULD have been building those Alchemy shops to speed research instead of those CI :blush:. I swaped all cities that can build these in the next 4 turns to these. Maybe we even wana rush a few of them .

GL Charis. Bring home the Baccon for us eh.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-800-BC.SAV)

Roster: Charis <- UP NOW
Everyone Else <- Shouldn't see annother turn in this one.

The closing bell is about to ring! :goodjob:
Wow, we cleaned the AI's clock in wonders, with 5/6, Mycenae getting
the Hanging Gardens alone.

[0] 800 BC - Going to try to speed us up by one turn, rearrange shields
in Ugarit to be done in 7, rearrange tiles and put one on wealth, and
Navigation is now due in 6.

[3] 740 BC - Some alchemist shops completing reduce time to Navigation by a turn.
I buy Architecture from Mycenae (350g), getting us to one tech away from finishing
the age. (It gives us the Forbidden Palace msg. Maybe we should... not :P )

[4] 720 BC - Sidon setup to finish City Park next turn.
Buy Medicine from Mycenae, and we made the 'Age of Empires' :P They got Monotheism for free.

(IBT) Navigation arrives, Sidon finishes park, we scroll ahead to Ugarit and...

The Great Lighthouse [dance]

Our sixth and final wonder! This of course is followed by:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-Victory-700bc.jpg

16 hrs, 42 mins. Double the time most folks would take for this scenario,
but by SG standards, a VERY quick one! The replay showed just how much of
a poach the Babylonians committed, and how bad they were repelled. The
game had two great leaders, both for Phoenicia. Tyre and Ugarit were the
number 1 and 3 cities, we were ranking 1 in all but area, disease and mil.

We had 5415 VP's at the end, just below the game limit of 5500. Our top rival
of Mycenae had just 1875. Total number of turns was 105 out of 160, meaning
we each got just 2 turns. 6 of 7 wonders, very well done folks!
Of those 5415 pts, just 3600 were wonders, 1160 by Advance and 355 for unit kill.

Final Score: 8864 Here's the ending map with the last wonder:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-FinalMap-700bc.jpg

Final save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/RBC2-Phoenicians-LastTurnWithScroll-720BC.zip) before the victory

Thanks team, a solid victory!

:hammer:
Charis

Over already? Wow! Excellent!

Nicely played all!

A bit too easy for Demigod and this crew, I guess.

Arathorn

Definitely a walk in the park guys :thumbsup:

[dance] A nice start to a fun set of scenarios !

Well done everyone!

Heh, I was checking to see when I would play next and I guess the answer is "never." :crazyeye: Well-played everyone! So what's next?

Great job all. This scenareo is deffinately interesting. I wonder why they even bother with the 3rd era techs though. Surely any good player will build the lighthouse before researching those?? Anyway, good job all. I'm ready for the next scenareo :).

I've opened discussion of "what's next" in the RB SG discussion thread to let this one come to rest :P

Basically it gives brief descriptions of the other scenarios, and suggests either: Mesoamerica next, an Open SG ala Sirp with an ancient UU bloodfest, or a 'regular' game with one of the new civs.

Please reply in the discussion thread with your interest, Thanks!
Charis