Roster:
Greebley
Doc Tsiolkovski
Yndy
Deatvert
a space oddity
TedJackson
Karasu
mad-bax

Intro
I've had a hankering to try out DyP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19742) for a long time. As most of my Civ time is committed to Succession Games I thought it might be cool to combine the two. What better way to explore this complex and intriguing mod than as an SG?

DyP newbies and veterans alike are welcome to join and, if there is enough interest, I'll set up more than one team and co-ordinate a competition.

If you are interested in joining then please indicate whether or not you've played DyP before and your level of DyP expertise. This will help me organise the roster to alternate between more and less experienced players.

Proposed start date 15th December

Preliminary settings
PTW: 1.27
DyP: 2.01
Difficulty: Emperor
Map: Random, Large, Continents
Conditions: Warm, Wet, Hilly
Opponents: Random
Victory Target: Spaceship or Diplomacy to ensure we explore most of the expanded tech tree
Civ: Mali - UU Mali Heavy Horseman (5.3.2) replaces Knight

Indicate your interest in the usual manner :)


Ted

I've downloaded Dyp 1.5, a mere 65Mb :p and I might have a little tinker b4 we start. I've not seen a DyP SG before, so this will be great!

Can I be on the roster to play after christmas please? 5th would be good for me.

I'm sure I've seen one before, Mad. And I'm sure Ted's able to find a link. :p

Originally posted by mad-bax
I've downloaded Dyp 1.5, a mere 65Mb :p and I might have a little tinker b4 we start. I've not seen a DyP SG before, so this will be great!
Have a look at SirJethro's DyP II - "The Emperor's New Mod" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53145) from earlier this year or KL1 - DyP on Earth (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25127) from last year.

Sadly, neither made it to the end. But we know that's not an option for us, don't we? :)

Originally posted by mad-bax
Can I be on the roster to play after christmas please? 5th would be good for me.
Consider it done. I'll put you in last :)


Ted

See?! :D :goodjob: Ted!

Welcome aboard Space :love:


Ted

Glad to have the opportunity, Ted. :)

We can use the 2.0 Beta by becoming testers. All you have to do is go >>here<< (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/groupcp.php?g=8&start=0) and join the group. Then you can download the beta software. You need to create an account on the home page first same as here.

It's only an idea.

Been there, done it, got it :)

I'm inclined to go with 1.50 (the devil we know) unless there is a public release of 2.x before we start playing.


Ted

2.01 should be out real soon, either for public, or at least the 2.01 build 3 test version. I'd suggest to wait for one of those; and if you didn't sign up as a tester so far, it could be a good idea to do that right now ;) .

If it's 2.0+, count me in.

Yeah, I fancy goin the whole hog. I wanna play 2.0 :cry: :D

OK,

I bow to the voice of the people :)

2+ it is.


Ted
p.s. Welcome aboard Doc Tsiolkovski

Originally posted by mad-bax
I've downloaded Dyp 1.5, a mere 65Mb :p and I might have a little tinker b4 we start.

This is why I'll have to pass :( --the "tinkering" in particular is not to my taste. But good luck, and I'll be lurking. :scan:

Edit: Hmm, I seem to have misinterpreted "have a little tinker" as the more ominous "have to tinker a little". Still, on technical grounds this one probably isn't a good choice for me.

That's kinda the point of this game NP,

DyP is a big mod and I thought a group of us playing might actually manage to figure out the changes and see whether or not it's worth the effort :)

I look forward to you putting us back on the straight & narrow when we're up to our arses in alligators and have forgotten what we're supposed to be doing in the first place :D


Ted

Lots of familiar faces around here. May I join?

I've started one DyP and got halfway through the Middle Ages about 8 months ago. Never continued since.

The problem would be those 65 megs. I'll ask a friend though and I'll get it in a couple of days or so.

Sure thing Yndy,

I'll add you to the roster.


Ted

I'll join i'm downloading it now

Welcome Deatvert,

have you played DyP before?


Ted

Ok,

we have enough players for one game but I'll leave this open to see if there's enough interest to get a second team started.

Remember we won't be starting until the middle of December.


Ted

I've played Dyp a little

I downloaded 2.01 last night and the 2.02 patch. 85Mb. Hope your friend can help you out Yndy. It's an eight hour download on 56K dial up

Where did you find the 2.01 version? I signed up for the group (and was accepted) but the only version I could find was 1.05. Maybe someone who's brighter then me, can put up a link?

Once you have been accepted, in the DyP Forum group you will find the "testers only" forum. In there there is a thread called "2.0 bug reports". The first post contains 2.01 and the 2.02 patch.

Doc will tell you all about it, he posts there more than anyone. :)

Found it, downloading it now! Thanks MB, I knew you would fit the description. ;)

Doc will tell you all about it, he posts there more than anyone.

Now if I tell you, we even have 2 more hidden fora for development :D


In any case, I'll make sure to post some essentials here before we'll start, just to avoid someone wants to settle the Desert, or starts mining Grassland and chopping Forrests.

Looking forward to play this SG, our group looks like a nice mixture of experienced ptw, and experienced DyP players
:thumbsup:

(BTW, there's no 2.02 version so far, only 2.01 build 2. Just to avoid confusion)

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
In any case, I'll make sure to post some essentials here before we'll start, just to avoid someone wants to settle the Desert, or starts mining Grassland and chopping Forrests. That would be helpful Doc. I intended to try and figure out a plan for the early research next week to try and figure out which are the critical techs for food, science & military.

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Looking forward to play this SG, our group looks like a nice mixture of experienced ptw, and experienced DyP players
:thumbsup:

(BTW, there's no 2.02 version so far, only 2.01 build 2. Just to avoid confusion) I hope it will be an interesting game. I wasn't sure if this idea would generate enough interest but we seem to be doing OK :)


Ted

Starting Tech Tree? Here is it (slight modifications possible, depending on the Civ we pick):

Farming
Mining
The Wheel

Domestication/ Pottery/ Weaving depending on Terrain
Bronze Working, Masonry (if we need culture), CB, WC

All Techs to get Dynasticsm, but IW before Dyna itself. Revolt.

Literature (We must get the Great Library; we have a good chance, since a prebuild/ cascade is not possible, but we'll have to dedicate a city for it very early), Construction (enables Mining)

Try to trade for Slavery, Boat Building,...

Head for Theology (Angkor Wath is the other must- have Wonder)

Everything else should come from the GL, but since we have rate cap of 60% in Monarchy (= vanilla Despotism), we can also research Trade -> Crop Rotation partially ourselves. Should also get the Circus Maximus (doubles Coliseums; requires 3 of them already build, another very good Wonder with a decent chance to get it. Wouldn't bother with any other ancient wonder, except maybe the Colossus), and the Slavery Trade SM.

What about the Civ? I'd prefer a COM or SCI Civ, since their particular trait specific buildings are interesting.
IND is strong as always, MIL helps immensely against the Barbs (check their Stats, btw!).
EXP can have a huge bonus by starting with Farming. REL is the least important, IMHO.
And we should take care to have our GA around early Renaissance, when we can use it to build Mills, Wind Mills and Guild Halls.

My favorites: France, Vikings, China (SCI/IND in DyP), but I'm open for discussion. Not Polynesia.

Thanks for that Doc,

I'm surprised that you find Religious a less desirable trait with all those government choices available and the associated anarchy in switching :)

If anyone else has Civ preferences then please speak up.


Ted

REL in DyP is just exactly the same as in the unmodded gaem, while all other traits yield something 'special'.
And we can life with only a few Gov switches:
Chiefdom->Monarchy->Democracy->?

I like 'special' :D


Ted

Specials, everything available from start:

MIL - Champions (2/1/1) instead of Warriors
COM - Counsellor building, maintanance-free Courthouse for 20 shields
SCI - Wiseman building, maintenance-free Library for 20 shields (no culture)
EXP - Rangers (0/1/1 ATAR) instead of Scouts, but more important, starts with Farming
IND - Serfs (no upkeep) instead of Workers

REL - nada.

I would like to play a scientific/commercial civ. I've played too much with industrious lately. What choices would that give us?

I would also like to joiin if there is room. Maybe this will make your 2 teams possible :)

I played a few games of 1.5 when it was in Beta but am no expert - especially the later eras.

Personally, I would prefer 1 team of 7 or 8 than 2 teams of 4. With a big team we might even be able to support a very large or even huge map and play 5 turns each.

This is a big learning experience for me and I would rather give it a good work out and really investigate the whole of the Mod.

I dunno where Ted's got to Greebley, but Hi :)

I could swear that I posted a message welcoming Greebley 5 minutes ago but obviously the Internet Gods have deemed my message unworthy :)

I'll try again:

Hi Greebley,

I've added you to the roster.

Depending on how many more people join between now and the start date will decide whether or not we play as a single team or split for a competition.

@mad-bax
I see the attraction of one big team. I started this game with the aim of digging the Gold out of DyP. So rest assured I'm not going to cut off my nose in order to satisfy some form of incipient megalomania :)


Ted

Pls no huge maps.
Celeron @ 633Mhz here.

Thank you

I think large is big enough to give us a fair taste of Dyp so you don't have to worry Yndy :)


Ted

One thing that was true when I was testing was that the AI didn't handle poor starting locations well. I suggest we play an old world with normal wetness (to avoid jungles and deserts and mountains) and normal temperature.

Of course 2.0 might be different.

Well, at least from my experience, a young world is more interesting. This may cause some weaker Civs, but the ones with a good start (a cluster of Wine, for example), are really competitive. True, jungle starts are a pita for everyone, but since Rubber only appears in Jungle tiles, a cold world with few equator tiles can also be problematic.

My favorite would be moderate/moderate/3 billions. And BTW, unless we pick a MIL Civ, please also pick moderate Barbs, they'll kill us (and the fun...) otherwise. Barbs are 2/2/1 +1HP and 4/3/2 +1HP :eek: !

About Civs:

COM/SCI are:

Greeks; UU: Hoplite, useful as always
Korea; UU: H'wacha here is 4(3)/2/1 zero range bombard, late Ancient, requires no resource (that's the best about them)
Mali; UU: Heavy Horseman, Knight replacement with a better Defence.

I'd prefer Mali, but they were already picked in the last SG, so this may be a little boring.

My vote goes to the Mali too. I did not really follow the last SG and I love fast UU's.

Mali sounds good to me too.

Anyone object?


Ted

Mali were the CIV I used when I tested the installation. I would be happey to use them.

Mali would be good

Well, then I'll bribe Isak to change the Mali Heavy Horseman to 30/30/10 +5HP for the next release ;) .

Mali sounds good to me.

A young world sounds fine as well if you recommend it. I definitely agreee with the moderates on wetness and temp.

Doc,
I was playing a game of 2.01 and the early wars between the AI's was insane. The limit on the science rade means they have a lot more cash so they spend it on alliances. However this just shuffles the money around without really spending it so more alliances were declared. I was averaging an alliance per turn with some turns having 2-3 declarations. This was on emperor diff. Does this happen all the time? I was thinking about posting it on the DYP test forum, assuming it hasn't already been discussed in detail there. It seems an unintended fall out on the 50% science limit.

And Ya, I agree the barbarians are a bit too much, especially on the higher difficulty levels. The real problem with civ barbarians is you get this weird stategy of letting them into small cities that they can't damage when they are too strong. I kind of wish they would add a percent chance of destroying a size 1 city.

Greebley, I haven't heard of this issue at all, and never happened to me in lots of games :confused: .

To the contrary, I always thought there would be less early wars in Dyp...

BTW, which version of 2.01 are you playing? The one with those Spy-type units running amok? If yes, then it's propably related to those - I wouldn't have noticed, since I immediatedly fixed them after my first encounter...

And considering the rate cap is in DyP for ages, I don't think it wouldn't have been noticed before if it would cause weird AI behavior.

I am guessing it only occurs in certain games then. I chose random, but I think I got 20% land continents on a large map with max civs. I also tried the "extended version" which probably means there are more turns to build up excess cash with little to spend it on.

Extented Version? Would you be so kind and report about that on the CDG forum, since we have very few experiences with the longer version in general...hard to test when you only run a 700MHz P3 :(

But please, lets use the basic version for this SG, otherwise we won't have launched before Civ4 is out.

DyP 2.01x is up. Get it here:

http://civ3.bernskov.com/ptw/download.asp

Additional information here (last post):

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=766

Note the small (2.5MB) version is supposed to also work with the 2.01 beta versions, so (hopefully ;) ) we don't have to get the 85MB again.

Happy downloading.

I got mine from another thread. it was beta02 of 2.01 (so 84 mb then 2 mb patch. Is this the same?

This is where I got it: (http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=4724)

This is obviously one of the 2.01 beta versions ;) , so you'll have to run the small update.

On the link you provided Doc, it says the patch is for 2.00, which we don't have in Europe. Are you sure it will work with 2.01 beta.

IF not, and I download the whole thing will the installation replace the current one or do I have to remove the old one first?

The 2.5 MB file is supposed to work for the beta versions. If not, I'll find a way to make it work :hammer:

I downloaded the full install and it seems to have overwritten the beta.

I've upfated the first post to reflect the DyP version & that we've chosen Mali as our Civ. We just need to agree on climate, geology & victory target.

I'll be doing a little testing over the weekend to see if I hit any problems :)


Ted

Please especially have a close look at the Emissary/ Spy-line, and what the AI does about them.


As said, I'd prefer moderate/moderate/3 billions. Continents or Archipelago; Pangae could be a little hard (if we end in the middle...).

What about getting this started soon? I'm not interested in C3C as long as the patch isn't out, so it would fit nicely now.


Re: Victory conditions: From my experience, DyP games are quite challenging in the beginning (Emperor feels more like vanilla Deity in the BCs); we cannot improve our lands for a long time, so the AI production bonus really kicks in.
But by mid-industrial, we should be really strong, so waiting for the Launch could turn out to be a little boring. So my suggestion is:
Let's keep Diplo as an option if we want to end the game, otherwise aim for Space Ship or Domination/ total Culture; anything but OCC or Conquest will require the same strategies until industrial anyway.

I don't see a problem starting now. Because I am in seven (yes I know, I know) other SG's you will have to be patient with me until after Christmas as I may skip a lot until the new year. I explained this to Ted. There are 3 SG's that just won't lay down and die.

I agree with the map settings BTW. I think an islands map might be fun. A little seafaring, why not?

I proposed Continents initially as that seemed the best choice to me since it forces us to look at the naval aspect of DyP.

I prefer Wet to get a few more rivers (which look to be even more important) but I'm willing to accept Temperate & Rocky :)

I agree with your victory target suggestions. Not having played DyP before SS and/or Diplo seemed to be the best way of ensuring we explored the large part of the revised tech tree.

Starting now is a little problematic, for me at least. I'm up to my SG limit at the moment but I guess if enough people want to start soon and we can juggle the roster a bit then it might be possible.

Early start people? Post your thoughts.


Ted

Well, I'm currently in feast mode (and I play only 3 SGs how you guys do it I really don't know), so I am in no particular hurry to be honest.

We should give 2.01x at least one more week to be tested, so it wouldn't be very wise to start before ~ Dec 7 anyway. With a little discussion about our start, it'll be the proposed time scedule (Dec 15), just let's try to not delay it any further.

I am pretty flexible on when we start. Giving it a week more time to get tested sounds reasonable to me.

Doc, have the spy problems been fixed?

In the meantime, I will try a bit of a game to make sure things are good with my install.

[Edit: Ted, I think wet will work if it isn't combined with warm. If we get a jungle start, it will be absolute murder. I have tried a DYP game with that start in 1.5. It took 20 turns to get enough food for a single worker and it was like 72 worker turns to clear a single jungle square (Actually, now it is worse since you can't even start clearing until you get Dynasticism). If you get one of those "small grassland surrounded by jungle" starts, you are in big trouble. It is better spending 10 turns to move your initial settler than settling there. (the initial settler moves 2 squares per turn in all terrain, so it isn't always that long, but it can be).

Looks as if the 15th is about right :D

I'll roll a few starts and post them at the beginning of next week.

Current settings are Continents, Wet, Temperate & Rocky. If I have enough time I'll generate some Wet, Temperate, Hilly maps for comparison.


Ted

I was trying out the settings you mention, Ted and happened to get a pure jungle start. I realized I was wrong with my above statement. You can clear jungle right away. Only chopping forests waits for Dynasticism.

...

Well I decided to kill that game. I popped a hut and the barbarians that came out of it made me move my worker and ruined my work on the Hardy Clan twice. My warriors were unable to kill them (they have 4 hp and are 2-2-1. I guess I should have build tribal guardians, but then they would simply chase my workers down and destroy any roads.

I kind of feel that they made barbarians a bit too tough in Dyp. I might comment on it in the thread, though it has probably been discussed to death already. Are we playing Sedentary or Roaming barbs in this game? In any case, I don't think we want to pop huts very early on. When it takes 20-30 turns for your first settler, they are murder.

Is it true you can't get Barbs from a hut if you have no military? How about the scout unit? Maybe just scouts at first could be the way to go - grab the huts near home before building a warrior.

I played some more over the weekend and have come to the conclusion that the barbs are a bit too fierce and add too much luck to the early game so I suggest that we play with no barbs.

As I plan on rolling the starts later today could anyone with an objection post ASAP.


Ted

I really have no idea how DyP works yet. Only that the tech tree is frightening. But won't "no barbs" handicap the expansionist Civs too much? Can we use sedentary barbs instead?

I agree that strong barbs tend to introduce a bigger luck factor into the game since the rate at which you meet them (and therefore lose units) has a high random factor.

It's particularly hard to get started. In that period you're really vunerable for Barb attacks. If there was a way of introducing barbs later that could be a compromise.

Maybe we can ask someone to make a map for us. Just maybe cracker has some time on his hands now that he's retired... :lol:

Sedentary is a possibility but non-expansionist civs will still have a chance of popping barbs from huts and suffering the consequences. So I'm still not sure which is the best choice.

Perhaps the best way to decide is the old "Let's have a vote on it" :)


Ted

TJ, please do *NOT* start the game right now. Wait a few more days. 2.01x is just out for a week, and we're getting the first bug feedback right now.

And since we've learned from Firaxis and incorporated some last-minute fixes after the testing :rolleyes: , it could be some changes will be needed again...this doesn't mean we'll have to wait for another release, but maybe you should apply some fixes yourself via the editor, once Kal-el has spoken.

On Barbarians:
I for one have no problems with roaming barbs; just pop no huts near our cities. We start with 1/2/1 TGs, and if we need to attack them, we need Archers - but we need a few Archers anyway. The ptw Barbs usually don't attack escorted units, but prefer to pillage improvements.

So I'd vote for Roaming, but Sedentary would be fine for me also.


Edit: And yes, no barbs from huts until you have military; we could start with a Scout.

I tried the scout idea and it worked well. My only flaw as not quite making enough (I made 2).

One thing I had forgotten about that I liked about DYP. The great library requires a library in the town to build the GL. This is huge for the following reason: You can't wonder cascade to the Great Library - it can only be started once you discover literature. I think we should go for Lit and the GL right after we discover dynasticism. It is hard to keep up with the AI's in tech. The rate cap limits the humans a lot more than the AI who tends a more "middle of the road" expenditure on tech, while the human will usually go to an extreme (min or max science) - at least initially.

Speaking of the rate cap (For those that may not know, you can't put more than 50% into science or gold at the start and no more than 60% at dynasticism) - there is the PTW bug that involves the rate cap - you can adjust money to be higher than 50% for a turn by turning down science and lux. The rate is readjusted between every turn. However, if you do this every turn, you can actually get around the cap entirely for gold. For some reason it adjusts the rates AFTER giving you the cash for the turn. I think we should decide whether this "strategy/exploit" is allowed or disallowed, because it can become VERY tempting to do if you are going to run out of cash. Otherwise you have to disband units ( if you make too many early on for example). My vote would be for disallowing it. as it defeats the whole purpose of the cap and really is a bug.

Agreed.

I am neutral to using Barbs, leaning a tiny bit to the no-barbs-at-all side. The game will be interesting enough as it is. We could handpick our opponents to let them not suffer too much.

Building 2 Scouts in the beginning is extremely risky...any AI Civ will consider us very weak, and if one happens to be near enough, it'll simply move its 4 starting units and - Game over.

1 Scout, maybe, then Warrior - Hardy - Warrior - Warrior

Everything else is suicidial IMHO.


I agree 100% on the Great Library. I even make sure to have a Forge and a Library prebuild ready when I discover Dynasticism, which effectively means I'll get Iron Working quite early.

I also agree on the rate cap, we should stick to it. Note this means avoiding any gpt payments above 1gpt- our income is so low in the beginning, that 1 more Clan can result in a negative income

I don't think the AI thinks that way. Usually he won't go for an early attack. To date I have found the most dangerous thing that can happen is to get a free settler or free city. It seems if you are both doing well and have a weak military, then you will get attacked. You also have to watch out for the more aggressive civs.

We could try:
scout-scout-scout-tribal defender dude-hardy settler

The 3 scouts could check the near environs for huts and such before the tribal whatever is built. On a large map we can really use 3 scouts. Also knowing two AI who do not know one another is probably the most powerful trading asset you can have.

Personally I think even 3 scouts and a hardy settler would work. If some AI comes close during the settler, then just switch to the tribal guardian. The problem is that random troops will wander by so you switch even though the chance of them taking your city is small.

[Edit: Note that this strategy works for higher levels of difficulty since then you are behind. It might be very dangerous in regent. I am not sure. The info here is based on personal experience with light military builds and Betazed's deity win with no military units built the whole game Betazed's game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1046625#post1046625)

That was a one in a million game that one. :eek: :thumbsup: Let's try it that way, but we have to see what kind of starting position we have, a bit of growth wouldn't hurt. :) We'll have to watch out for the spy type units, they can attack without you ever see 'm. I'm not sure when the first can be built though. Does any of you know?

@Greebley: My experience is totally diferrent - until I pump out Military, the AI ususally declares on me before turn 30, if near enough. They cannot do much harm, but I have to build more Military than I'd need normally.
This especially happens when an AI Civs feels slightly poached; i.e. it sits on a large peninsula, and your borders block the way out.

35 Shields for units before we start the 1st Clan means we've lost the race for good city spots already...
IMHO, there's no way around 10 Shields for units, then start the Hardy to finish once our capital reaches pop2. We could try the 2x Scout gambit, but this could easily mean we'll have to start again ;) .
Also, without a Luxury, our capital will riot at pop2 without a MP unit, this means we'd have to build the 3 Scouts without food surplus, and grow with the TG completed.

@space:
The 1st invisible unit is the Assassin, but it looks like all Hidden Nationalities need to be removed (the stupid AI values them so high to not build any other attacker....); that's why I don't want to start this right now - TJ may have to fix this manually.

I had my first little play with Dyp last night, and I only played 50 turns or so, and had absolutely no clue what was going on :D

However, I did notice that I couldn't roll a wet start for love nor money.

Barbs showed up on several maps almost immediately despite the setting being sedentary.

My start location was always within a dozen or so tiles from the nearest civ. I felt squeezed immediately.

My starting techs were of no value whatever to the AI. On first contact I could not trade both of my techs for one of theirs.

The AI were very aggressive.

I'm going to need to read up on this mod before we play, otherwise 100 turns in we're going to be dead IMO.

Where should I go to learn? Is the civilopeadia reasonable?

For any reasons, the AI Civs in DyP are more aggressive regardless of their settings :confused: , and for any reason, the starting locations seems to be closer also.

Our starting Techs (Alphabet/ Wheel) aren't the greatest, and on Emperor, we won't get more then one Tech for both of them.

But hey, we don't want an easy game!


mad-bax, the Civilopedia is quite accurate for the DyP 1.50 version, and most of the changes in 2.01 are units - so make sure to read the Wonders section, and check units + Govs in the editor.

Out of curiosity what happens if a city is taken by a "hidden nationality" unit?

Interesting on the early attacks. I really just played the one game, and was able to do 2 scouts and one hardy without a problem - though I didn't have as much problem with the AI being really close If you do have had major problems in DYP then it is not worth the risk and we should do something else. Out of curiosity were you playing on emporer (or deity), and have no "food surplus" at start? At easier difficulties or with a +3 food square, you couldl outgrow the AI's for the most part making them more likely to attack.

I guess, whether you choose 20, 30, or 40% land would affect things too. I am thinking 40% might help the crowding problem.

Ya, the hidden nationality is a bit much. The AI will start hitting random cities even when not at war. It really discouraged me from continuing.

Madbax, If barbarians are popped from huts, unlike in normal PTW, the AI does not go and try to kill them at least not at first because the barbs are stronger than the AI's units. The barbs just wander around and harrass everyone. Since the AI tend to defend their cities more, your cities may be more tempting so nearby barbs will go after you. This is one reason I liked the scout idea - by getting the nearby huts out of our hair, they won't be popping barbs on us. This is my guess on why you are seeing barbs on sedentary.

Didn't think of that Greebley. With the AI so close by, and not expansionist the barbs must have come from popped huts.

It just is owned by the Civ of the HN unit, without any hostility. But since you can use that as well, it's not a flawed concept by itself - the real problem is the idiotic AI build preferences, valueing HN INCREDIBLY high.

And I mean exactly Emperor/ Diety games with average starting positions; in fact, I did stop from trying Diety (except for Pelagos), since the AI always comes to kill me here, even Korea or India!

On Emperor it extremly depends on the map (but a large peninsula isn't enough to calm down for an AI), and if they feel strong enough, they'll try it. I'm rather sure its depending on your military, since I've seen the SoD approaching my capital and returning once I built another Warrior/ TG several times - and you get peace, once you kill 3 of their initial units.

Doc,
Can they make them invisible, but without hidden nationality? I think I would like this better - you have to be at war to be attacked, but still have that risk.
I may also go suggest on their web site that they be later in the game. The ancient era seems too early for them. I would at least wait into the middle of the middle ages or perhaps later.

Ted,
I am wondering if we should start a new thread when we start the game. We have added 3 pages of discussion of which much won't be relevant to the actual game, but rather game setup.

Greebley,

that sounds like a workable solution. Force the AI to take responsibility for their actions :D

BTW Doc, I'm happy to implement any tweaks needed. Just let me know what's required.


Ted

Yes, removing HN is exactly what's needed. Don't think they come too early, the Emissary is a lousy unit otherwise, hardly able to defeat a reg Warrior - but that forces us to never leave cities undefended.

And imagine, the AI does use the invisible units exactly as intented! In my current game (Mali, what else ;) ) my neighbor did sneak attack me with Emissaries - successfull!


TJ, I'll pm you a list of the tweaks soon. All about units, the HN thing as top priority, and mainly UU stuff; this won't have any impact on the DyP feeling, but since we need to fix the Spies, we can fix some minor bugs as well.

OK Doc,

ready when you are :)


Ted

TJ, another fix to apply is making the Colonial Marines Amphibious.

Tweaks done,

waiting for Doc to confirm correctness :)

Starts rolling as soon as I hear back.


Ted

Unfortunately I don't have access to Civ until tomorrow, so everything I say is OTOH.

Your tweak list looks fine, except I wonder if there weren't more Rifleman flavors (like African Rifleman). Could you please check that again?

Anyway, the only really crucial fix is removing the HN.


Engineers do not come with Comp Ed. I'm 99% sure they come with Computers (and I'm 100% sure they come with a Modern Era Tech). You could check that in the Spreadsheet delivered with the mod; if you cannot find it, use Computers.

Doc,

No spreadsheet installed for the new version. I'll install on another machine tomorrow unless somebody else chimes in with the correct answer.

On the Rifles issue I looked in the pedia and took what I found there. I should have known something was missing :)



Ted

Engineers come with Electronics :D

I've found & tweaked the African Rifleman so now I'll be able to roll some starts later today.


Ted

Ted: Have you got round to rolling the starts for this game yet.
The 15th is just around the corner.... :)

Starts rolling as I type, had a little re-tweaking to do ;)


Ted

Will we have to do the tweaks ourselves?

Not necessary MB,

The start will incorporate the changes.


Ted

Here we go then :)

Here's the list of the tweaks applied to the DyP basic 2.01x mod:

Tweaks
Emissaries (all flavours) - removed HN, Added invisibility
Assassin - removed HN
Ninja - removed HN
Spy - removed HN
Secret Service - removed HN
Secret Agent - removed HN
Special Agent - removed HN
Covert Operative - removed HN

Labourers - added Airlift
Rifleman (all flavours) - Airlift added

Cuirassiers - added Ottomans
Privateer - set Bombard range to 0
Elephant Riders - removed Wheeled
Jet fighters - require Oil & Aluminium (not changed)
Inti - removed Amphibious & Blitz
Cossack - set HP Bonus to +2
Colonial Marines - Amphibious added

Here are the start conditions (all starts were generated in-game, not from the editor):

Start Conditions
Map Size: Large
Map type: Continents, 60% Water
Barbs: Sedentary
Climate: Wet
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 3 Billion
Civ: Mali
Opponents: 11 random
Enabled victories: Domination, Space Race, Diplomatic, Conquest, Cultural
Misc: Civ-Specific abilities on, Preserve random seed on, Cultural conversions on, all others off
Level: Emperor

Finally, here are the starts:

Start A
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1.jpg

Start B
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-2.jpg

Start C
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-3.jpg

Start D
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-4.jpg

Start E
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-5.jpg


Remember, not many resources are yet visible but the terrain allows their presence later on :)

Vote for your favourite/least favourite and narrow down the choices.


Ted

I like A for the food, B for the Horse (we get to use our UU for sure :) ) and E for the balanced mix and a defendable position.

I don't like C for the poor land and the central position in the map (11 opponents on an emperor level :eek: ) and D for the sort of nothingness of it.

That being said I only started one game in DyP ever, so I don't exactly know what the food/shield/money implications are.

I am going to vote against A. Starts with that much food (+2) are unusual, and I don't think we will get a good feel for the rormal starts in DYP with it. Its like rolling 5 starts and picking the one with 2 cows.

My order will be:

D, B, E, C, A

:eek:
Is C on a hill? If yes, that is an absolut killer start, by far the best choice here.

To expand that a little:

Things to consider (Important!, especially for the DyP Newbies):

* Mixed terrain is the key
* Nothing will appear on bonus Grassland, and IIRC nothing except Alu will appear on Forrest.
* Our borders will expand after 10 turns.
* Mined Mountains give 6spt, Hills only 4. This makes mountain tiles far more valuable.
* We can mine anything but Grassland.
* Jungle nearly guaranties valuable resources - Bananas, Silks, Gems (Lux); Rubber only appears on Jungle tiles in DyP. Also, the AI won't settle Jungle tiles for the most part of the game, allowing us to expand in other directions first. Being surrounded by Jungle - ugly, being adjacent to Jungle -great!
* We definetely should start on a hill tile; we need the extras shields in the beginning.

Detailed Pro/Con list:

A) is out. We will have neither production nor food until turn 10, and even then we won't have any commerce; our Worker will waste 2 turns before he can even start roading.

B) is mediocre; we will have to move the Tribe 1 tile N or NE, but since he is ATAR, this is no problem. The bad thing is: Only Plains and Hills so far; the Horses look tempting, but won't help us before Dynasticism.

C) is really, really great (if it is on a hill, of course). The only start that will allow a productive size 3 city for sure. A river BG with a road means doubel research. And we have Jungle, Mountains, Flood Plain, Desert, Forrest, Grassland, Hills and Plains tiles nearby. Plus the Goody Hut. If this was my private game, I wouldn't hesitate for a single second. ;)
Of course, we're in a risk of Disease.

D) is out. No River/ Hill in reach.

E) is between out and mediocre. We need to move 1 tile NW, and if we happen to get Wine or Sheep, this can turn out to be a good position, but it can turn out to be crap as well. Note there also is Jungle nearby, but to me it looks more likely here to be surrounded by Jungle than C).


My rating:

C(!) - C - C - B. If you beat me to it, I could accept E, but don't complain later.
;)

After rereading your recommendations, I feel urged to emphasize this again:

* We can mine anything but Grassland.


Note nothing except Cows will appear there before Alu that yields a single shield, only Food/ Trade boni.


BTW; C) is not the extremly lucky Herd-of-Cows start; with enough luck, all positions can turn out to be great, but C) is the only one that is really good even without a single bonus tile. Guaranteed Great Library.

My low vote for C is for similar reasons to Docs, oddly enough. One thing I found about DYP is that the start makes a much bigger difference than a normal game. By playing start C or A, we are choosing an easier setting. B, D, E are the the "true" empire games that you will get normally if you just choose the first random position (This is based on several trial starts of my own - None of them were as good as A or C).

Maybe starting with C is a good idea since we don't know DYP that well and need a leg up against emporer AI. I am not sure. I certainly won't object if it is the consensus. Still I think the challenge of the "lesser" positions of B, D, or E is something we could handle. If our UU is based on having horses, I think I would agree on B being a good start.

Doc,
For D we could get to a hill on the river in a single turn. Also for A, I would forgo the river and settle near the apple and BGs. The extra food would allow us to get settlers out more quickly. Unless the river is a lot more important than I know?

I don't think C) is an easy start - we'll have 2 Desert, 5 Mountain and 3 Jungle tiles in our borders; the point is not what it is right now, but what we can make out of it. And that is somewhat like the theme for DyP.

On A): You cannot settle on a Hill next to the Apple without losing the Mountain. And working the Apple gives 4 Food, allowing us to grow to size 3 with working the 2 BGs - yielding exactly 4 Shields, and 8 Commerce including the city tile itself. Compare that with C) : 1 more Commerce from the city and each worked river tile means 9 Commerce and 3 spt at size 2 already. Proper timing will allow us to build Clans.
The river is incredibly important for our early research, not for the growth later.

On D): We cannot reach a River/ Hill tile in the 1st turn, and the ones for turn 2 don't look so great.

As said, I can live with B) and E), but C) is the most interesting start.

Hola.
I have never played mods, and I am a bit frightened at installing - uninstalling them...
But I have been lured into this game, I love all the players I see here, and I am just back from a journey to Mali.

So, what the hell, here I am.
Just give me a little time to find out the mod and understand it a bit -can I slip towards the end of the roster? Pretty please? :)

As for the starting position, I haven't the foggiest idea. I'll stay with the majority if you need a fast decision -just don't make it too easy, you know that MB loves challenges... ;)

A big welcome to our mystery guest :D

If you troll through the thread Karasu there are a few pointers, including the download link for DyP 2.01x.

Roster is now officially closed.


Ted

Start A. Too much grass, and I don't like starting in the corner of the map. Food bonus after 10 turns, 2 BGs, hill on a river. If this were unmodded I'd pick it.

Start B. Low food start, can't auto-pop the hut through expansion. Near the middle of the map. Hill on a river and access to the coast. The coast may cut us off from access to jungle. The comfort factor of the horse makes it easy to pick. Could be a good start, but could be a really bad start.

Start C. 3 desert, 6 mountain, 3 hills and 1 BG make this a good Dyp start. Since it is a wet map then to the north we are likely to have a large swathe of jungle whereas to the south we will hit the bottom of the land area pretty quick. The hut will autopop without danger of barbs (can't remember the setting). Nice central map location.

Start D. 3 BGs in extended radius and access to the coast. Everything else is bad. Corner of map location, only one mountain, settler not on a hill. It is the only start I would not consider.

Start E. If the settler were on the SW hill tile I'd consider it. Otherwise its all hills and grass. If we moved the settler and got the Mountain into play then maybe. But I am not convinced.

Personally I would go with start B. At face value it's not as good as start C but has more potential (for better or worse). Start C is a safer solid start. Second choice would be C.

As a newbie to DyP I would completely disregard what I have said and take Docs advice.

i say C

Ted,
Once we pick the start, it might be useful to make one of the other starts available for play (i.e. post the start save). The reason is that then a player could play it out and make sure there was nothing wrong further in that would cause problems or forgotten that would cause major issues - like missing a hidden nationality flag on a unit or something like that. It would also be useful for anyone who wanted to get a feel for the game.

As my previous posts may have been unclear:

My vote is for start B.

Greebley,

IIRC the bix is only 50K so I could post the bix file later if you like.


Ted

Ted, that would work, though I don't remember how to use a bix file. Do I replace a file in the Dyp scenario?

Today's the day guys. Who's UP? What save are we playing?

And what's DyP anyway?

Well,

it looks as if the concensus is start C.

I'll post the save this evening and it looks as if Greebley gets the honour of starting :)


Ted

Wohoo!


TJ, what means 'this evening'? GMT?


And IMHO it would be really better to start a new thread for the game itself.

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Wohoo!


TJ, what means 'this evening'? GMT?


And IMHO it would be really better to start a new thread for the game itself. Yep, GMT

OK, I'll start a new thread and post the link here.


Ted

The thread for the game is > here < (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72082) (including save & modified bix).

Please sign in (so that I know who to PM :))


Ted

I am curious why people do not consider the Pyramids a must have wonder. I always go for it. The free culture is a huge advantage, IMO. It means your cities borders will expand in 10 turns allowing you greater freedom in city placement. Obviously the GL is a must have, but the Pyramids is definitely high on the list.