After a brief personal review of Conquests and reading many posts my personal opinion is that I have been let down by Firaxis. Apart from the egregious bugs of corruption and gpt trades, I have issues with volcanoes (does not have anything to do with gameplay), military leaders unable to rush wonders (then why give the ability to science leaders?), so much more pollution, a stupider AI (hey I thought that was impossible :rolleyes: ).... need I go on?

But....

_________________________________________________

betazed : Damn! I hate this new expansion pack. They really goofed this one, didn't they?
betazed's wife : Then why did you buy it?
betazed : Well.... you know... errr... it is a civ3 expansion.... :rolleyes:
betazed's wife : I bet you will be playing this as much as the last one. { mutters something in exasperation, sighs and changes the tv channel... }

_________________________________________________


Now, I really cannot let down my wife, can I?

So here is BZ7, to be played in conquests.

However, I will make one change. I will make a game in which I will edit number of optimum cities to 100% and reduce default corruption to 0 for everybody . I can think of many objections to this but it will make an interesting variant (and I would rather have this than having a newly built FP increase corruption is all of my empire).


Apart from that here are the specifics :-

Civ - Netherlands
Civ traits - Agricultural and Seafaring (let's try out the new traits and see how they perform)
Difficulty level - Sid
Map type - Continents
Map size - Huge
everything else - random

P.S. Bz6 is not finished yet, although it is close to completion. However, I started the ball rolling over here so that we can have at least the initial discussions as that game winds up.


Roster
Earp
Betazed
Teknoice - MIA
SAAM - dropped.

I'll join again. I am as dissappointed with Conquests as you are. I think the 'income from other civs counting twice' bug is as big of a problem as the problems with corruption.

I think we should try out the 'Sid' difficutly level.

Originally posted by Earp
I think the 'income from other civs counting twice' bug is as big of a problem as the problems with corruption.


Unfortunately, there is no way I can edit that out.


Originally posted by Earp
I think we should try out the 'Sid' difficutly level.

Sid it is then. However, at this level the AI to AI trade rate is 200%. That makes the above problem almost murderous for the human player.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_Start.JPG

Here is the start position. Although this map is generated I consciously did not look at anything in the map. I just tweaked the corruption factors and loaded up the game.

I will post the start when we have a few more players.

I'll join up.

Dutch is an interesting Civ. We start with 2 important techs: Alphabet and Pottery. And the UU: Swiss Mercs. have an def of 4. (Replacing Pikemen with a def of 3) Which is great for defending against Knights.

Seafaring is only good if you plan on building coastal cities to get the city center commerce bonus. Faster moving ships and coastal improvements don't really go a long way in civ 3. (Unless we're playing on an archipelago map)

Agriculture trait is ok. Center tile has one more food. Hills get a bonus of course if they are adjacent to a river. Agriculture improvements build faster but I'm not sure about the granary.
Golden age can be reached by building wonders such as Pyramids and Hanging Gardens.

Welcome aboard, Teknoice. :thumbsup:

:soldier:

Originally posted by betazed
I will make one change. I will make a game in which I will edit number of optimum cities to 100% and reduce default corruption to 0 for everybody . I can think of many objections to this but it will make an interesting variant (and I would rather have this than having a newly built FP increase corruption is all of my empire).

I have a few questions. :D

Does this mean that corruption will not be affected by distance from the capital? Can we build hundreds of cities and not be affected by corruption?

Will we have no need for a FP or courthouses? Are there any other buildings that we should place less emphasis on?

Will this change have any affect on the different forms of goverment? Will a despot have the same corruption as a democracy?

Does this mean that corruption will not be affected by distance from the capital? Can we build hundreds of cities and not be affected by corruption?


Yes corruption should not be affected by the capital. I turned down the corruption slider to 0 and made percentage of optimal cities 100. If we still see corruption then we will know we have found another bug!


Will we have no need for a FP or courthouses? Are there any other buildings that we should place less emphasis on?


Yes no point building a FP or courthouses. In any case under C3C we would have been penalized for building a FP. This was one of my primary reasons of making this change.



Will this change have any affect on the different forms of goverment? Will a despot have the same corruption as a democracy?


I have made corruption same (I could only make it to Minimal) for all forms of goverment. With the slider set to 0 and 100% optimal cities all forms of goverment should have the same corruption - 0.

Whether this will really be the case, we will see. My guess is as good as yours. ;) We will come to know right away when we build our second city.

So here is the big question?

With corruption gone what changes do you think we should do in our strategy?

One thing is obvious. Expand, expand, expand! More cities the merrier. In fact I am thinking grab as much land as possible in the beginning and then go for ICS!

So let's get 2 settler factories :D

Or maybe 1 worker/settler factory and 1 settler factory.

Allow me to jump back in. I'm picking up my copy over the weekend when the show is finally done. But, I have a life once more and Civ can reenter it. Just stick me at the bottom of the roster for now and don't expect me to do anything for tomorrow or the weekend (final show is sat, party lasts till 2am). Come Monday, though, im in. As for Sid, It would make an excelent Cap Feather. During Beta, I tested Sid some. I was lucky to get a fourth city down.... The corruption factor should help us, but the AI is going to love it. Look for would-be fishing village metropolises.

@SAAM: Welcome back. You are in. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, I have to go to Vancouver this weekend. I may not be back till next weekend. :(

So if you guys want to start this game please go ahead.

If you do start, then Earp plays the first 20 turns and then 10 turns as usual from there on according to roster (skip me till I am back).

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_,_4000_BC.SAV).

0 - 4000 BC
Move worker west to cow
Found Amsterdam
Set Amsterdam's production to warrior
Set research to writing at minimum

1 - 3950 BC
Worker begins irrigation

2 - 3900 BC
:sleep:

3 - 3850 BC
:sleep:

4 - 3800 BC
Amsterdam Warrior --> Warrior
Warrior moves south

5 - 3750 BC
Warrior moves south
Worker finishes irrigation and begins road

6 - 3700 BC
Amsterdam grows. Increase lux slider
Warrior moves south

7 - 3650 BC
Amsterdam Warrior --> Granary
Fortify Warrior in Amsterdam and decrease lux slider
Warrior moves west

8 - 3600 BC
Warrior moves south
Worker finishes road and moves east

9 - 3550 BC
The exploring warrior could pop a hut, but I think it will probably contain barbs, so he moves west
Worker moves south

10 - 3500 BC
Amsterdam grows. Increase lux slider
Warrior moves east
Worker begins to clear forest

11 - 3450 BC
Warrior moves northeast

12 - 3400 BC
Warrior moves east

13 - 3350 BC
Warrior moves north

14 - 3300 BC
Amsterdam grows. Increase lux slider
Worker finishes forest chop and begins road
Warrior moves east

15 - 3250 BC
Warrior moves north

16 - 3200 BC
Warrior moves southeast

17 - 3150 BC
Worker finishes road and moves southeast
Warrior moves south

18 - 3100 BC
Amsterdam Granary --> Settler
Amsterdam grows. Increase lux slider
Worker begins road
Warrior moves south

19 - 3050 BC
Warrior moves south

20 - 3000 BC
Warrior moves west

Our first two cities can be 4 turn settler factories with +5 fpt. We should be able to grow very quickly if we pump out a settler every two turns. I think we need to found the second city SE, SE of the game. We need to irrigated the game to get +5 fpt for the second city. We will need to mine the seven BGs to increase the spt for the two cities. Amsterdam needs to work the irrigated cow and three mined BGs, and the second city needs to work the irrigated game and four mined BGs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_3000BC.jpg

Don't forget to adjust the slider as Amsterdam grows and shrinks.

I think we might want to build a second worker after Amsterdam finishes the settler. We have lots of BGs to mine and connecting the wines will help us conserve some gpt.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_3000BC.SAV)

can you post a dotmap of where you want our next couple cities?

Thanks.

Here is a quick dotmap. I agree that we will need a dotmap considering that we will be producing a settler every other turn, but it is kind of early to make one after only twenty turns of exploration.

All of these dots are open to discussion. I am not sure if we want to build denser than this based on the 0 corruption.

The blue dot is the city location I have in mind for the second settler factory.

Thoughts?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_3000BC_dotmap.jpg

ok I've got it.. 10 turns right?

yes, 10 turns from now on

Pre flight checks:

Thanks for that dotmap, it helps a lot to get an idea of what's good (or not) for city placement.

Watching lux slider/amsterdam growth...
Worker after built settler in amsterdam...
Going to continue to scout...
Second city location pinpointed...

OK!
GO!

1 - 2950 BC
Warrior -> S
Worker -> mine bg
Amserdam growth in next turn lux slider 40%

2 - 2900 BC
Warrior -> SW
Settler built next turn in Amsterdam Lux slider down 20%

3 - 2850 BC
Move new settler to second city placement. (SE,SE, of game)
Warrior -> W

4 - 2800 BC
Warrior -> W
New city: Rotterdam -> building warrior
Increase Lux to 30%


5 - 2750 BC
Amsterdam builds Worker -> Settler
New worker moves to irrigate Game for Rotterdam
Warrior -> W

6 - 2710 BC
Warrior -> W

7 - 2670 BC
Worker finishes mine -> mine next BG
Warrior -> SW
Increase Lux to 40%, Amsterdam growth next turn

8 - 2630 BC
IBT French are building Pyramids and we spot a French Warrior close to our
borders.
Contact French (They are Polite!)
They have BW, Masonry, and WC.
I trade them Pottery for all of their gold (35).
Worker mines BG
Warrior -> S discovers French border

9 - 2590 BC
Warrior -> S

10 - 2550 BC
Amsterdam builds Settler -> Settler
Move lux to 30%
Worker mines BG
Settler Moves to Settle below Rotterdam
Warrior -> SE

Done.

Watch the lux slider/potential mood changes.
Settler en route to build 3rd city.
Amsterdam needs more production.
We have close friends (French) their mood toward us is polite.
Good stash of cash.

Our Civ:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz72550BC.JPG


Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_2550BC.SAV)

If you wanted to do a farmer's gambit, you could make the black dot (and the yellow dot, if it's on a river) a four turn settler factory as well.

Also, any city in the southeast on freshwater that can work the game can become a 4 turn settler factory.

Maybe you should see how far you can peacefully expand with nothing but settlers seeing as your only known neighbors are the french.

Right things are slow though.. stupid workers need to hurry up so the cities can get more shields.

Definately a good thing French are polite, especially on Sid. :crazyeye:

SAAM, are you going to be able to play before betazed gets back?

Oh. Sorry. Didnt realize I was up. I'll play tonight

No problem. With betazed out of town, there is no rush.

BZ7
Been a while since I last put game to turn log. Well, Ive got 10 turns and several dots to fill. Lets take Sid out for a spin.
Preturn: Settler in Rotterdam will go to yellow circle.
T1: Rotterdam: Warrior->Warrior
T2:
T3: Im rusty. I forget to MM Amsterdam as It grows to Size 6 and it riots :smoke:. Loose one turn on settler production and settler arrives on yellow dot.
T4: The Hague is founded on Yellow Dot. Starts warrior, no corruption (just keeping note due to Bz's mod.)
T5: Amsterdam: Settler->Settler. Rotterdam: Warrior->Settler (go Agr.!) Amsterdam settler headed to Green dot.
T6:
T7: Settler arrives at green dot, and Lo and behold! YAC! (Yet Another Cow!).
T8: Byzantine city of Caesarea (NOT! Their capitol) builds Collosus.French have sent a Curragh our way. Utrecht is built on green dot.
T9: Amsterdam: Settler->Curragh (Just 2 turns, and will help us explore. Remember: No contact trading 'till Printing Press). Hauge: Warrior->Worker (vetoable). Thebes builds Pyramids. Settler will head for Red Dot.
T10: Chichen Itza builds Oracle. Thats all for here. Settler is on his way to Red Dot, as seen on previous page. Another settler is due in 3, to go to Black dot, but we need more dots!

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_2150BC.SAV)

0 - 2150 BC
Move warrior from Rotterdam to Amsterdam
Move warrior in Amsterdam West to explore
Decrease lux to 50%
France is up BW, Mas, Wheel, WC, and CB

1 - 2110 BC
Amsterdam Curragh --> Worker
Amsterdam grows. Increase lux slider
MM Rotterdam and Amsterdam to complete settler next turn.

2 - 2070 BC
Rotterdam Settler --> Worker
Change Hague from worker to warrior. We need workers, but we also need warriors. Rotterdam and Amsterdam can more effectively produce workers/settlers. I think we need our other cities to produce warriors to keep up with the number of cities we are founding. We need atleast one warrior escorting each settler and guarding each city.
Found Groningen. Begin work on warrior.
Warrior in mountains pops hut and gets barbs. :smoke:

IBT The barbs kill our warrior. :(

3 - 2030 BC
We finish connecting the wines.
Amsterdam Worker --> Settler
The Hague Warrior --> Warrior
Utrecht Warrior --> Warrior
Decrease lux slider

4 - 1990 BC
Rotterdam Worker --> Settler

5 - 1950 BC
Explore
MM The Hague to produce warrior in 1 turn instead of 2
MM Amsterdam and Rotterdam to increase Rotterdam's spt

6 - 1910 BC
The Hague Warrior --> Barracks
Found Eindhoven. Begin work on warrior

7 - 1870 BC
Amsterdam Settler --> Settler
Utrecht Warrior --> Worker
Groningen Warrior --> Warrior
Decrease lux slider

8 - 1830 BC
MM Eindhoven to prevent wasting a shield

9 - 1790 BC
MM Rotterdam and Amsterdam

10 - 1750 BC
Finish Writing. Begin on MM. This can be changed without any loss. Do you all think we should go for MM, Lit, CoL, or Phil?
Rotterdam Settler --> Granary. I am not sure about this. We can produce more settlers quicker in the long run if we build a granary.
Eindhoven Warrior --> Barracks
Establish an embassy with France
Paris - size 4 - 8spt/9fpt/9gpt - Palace/Temple - 3 spearmen - wines/iron/horses
France is still up atleast BW, Mas, Wheel, WC, and CB
The only three tech trade we can make is for BW, WC, and CB
Trade Writing and 247 gold for BW, WC, and CB
France is up atleast Mas, Wheel, IW, and Myst. They have 13 cities compared to our 6. :(

Amsterdam needs 30 shields to produce a settler every four turns. If you MM Amsterdam and Rotterdam, you can maximize the shields going to Rotterdam and not waste any shields by going over 30 in Amsterdam.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_1750BC.SAV)

I think we should send the settler S of Utrecht to grab the three spices at blue dot. I think we should try to settle grey, yellow, red and green ASAP to box in the French. I think the settler NE of Hague should be sent to the yellow dot.

Thoughts?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Bz7_1750BC_dotmap.jpg

Hey, I am back and I see I am up. Will try to play today.

I played my turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Bz7_AB.JPG

here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Bz7,_1325_BC.SAV). Write up follows soon.

Went full steam for philosophy, since getting that would give us a free tech. Someone must have learnt it before us. :( We did not get anything. However, traded it for IW from France.

Added another curragh going in the other direction. Now three cities are churning settlers.

We should research at full since we cannot trade and do 2-fers. Our only hope is that we will meet someone soon. Our curragh was attacked by barbs but survived.

We got the spices. But France has pretty much boxed us in. :( We have to expand sideways east and west.

After connecting spices we managed to bring down lux to 0.

Teknoice is up.

**bump**

Is everyone back from vacation? :)

Teknoice, you there?

What happened to Teknoice?

Originally posted by Earp
What happened to Teknoice?

I dunno.

I guess either you or SAAM can take up this game and we can skip him this turn.

Can Earp grab it? I dont know whats going to happen to my internet connection with this bilzard.

*bump*

Is there no interest in playing this game? :(
Is conquests so hated? :confused:
Should we abandon this game and start a new one in PTW? Will that provide more interest?

I am interested in continuing. I might have some time to play this evening.

I finally found some time to play civ.

0 - 1325 BC
Change entertainer in Rotterdam to taxman

1 - 1300 BC
MM some cities

2 - 1275 BC
Amsterdam Settler --> Worker
Rotterdam Settler -- >Settler
The Hague Granary --> Spear
Eindhoven Spear --> Spear
Our southern Curragh spots 3 Barb Galleys. :eek:

IBT Barbs sink our southern explorers. :(

3 - 1250 BC
Hire taxman in Utrecht

4 - 1225 BC
Amsterdam Worker --> Settler

5 - 1200 BC
Found Delft

6 - 1175 BC
Rotterdam Settler --> Settler
The Hague Spear --> Spear
Utrecht Settler --> Settler
Eindhoven Spear --> Spear
Haarlem Granary --> Barracks
Found Breda
Found Leiden

7 - 1150 BC
Groningen Granary --> Curragh
Maastricht Granary --> Barracks
Found Den Helder

8 - 1125 BC
Amsterdam Settler --> Settler

9 - 1100 BC
The Hague Spear --> Worker
Delft Warrior --> Granary

10 - 1075 BC
Rotterdam Settler --> Settler
Groningen Curragh --> Barracks
Eindhoven Spear --> Spear
Found Harlingen
Rush temple in Holwerd for 1 citizen

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Bz7_1075BC.SAV)

Finally, we get the game going again! :)

@SAAM, @Teknoice: Either of you can play.

edit: Teknoice may be MIA though. His last post was on Nov 23rd.

I've got it. Will play tonight if I can

I've got to drop. Stuff is happening in RL and I dont think civ has any time anymore.

Sorry.