One of the oldest political wars (The Peloponnesian Wars) was fought between the allies/subjects of Athens and the allies of Sparta. For those who do know the details about the war, who would you have fought or supported?

Depends on where my city state would be located. If I were a colony of Athens in Anatolia, I'd support Athens. Same applies with small island cities, even though I'd be a colony of Sparta (or more likely, Corinth).

But I'd most probably go for Sparta. I've done a lot of reading on the Peloponnesian Wars lately, and I've always been a "land" sort of person anyway. I find seafaring/naval states too "snobbish" sometimes.

I'd probably end up supporting Athens as I like the idea of living there and looking up at the acropolis every day :D

(assuming I have my dates right that is, the acropolis was built then right?)

Athens seems more humane then Sparta. Go Athens.

Sparta was more humane (to their allies) than Athens. Go Sparta. :D

PS: Thats a big IIRC BTW.

Athens wanted to build an empire and Sparta stood in their way. So I support Sparta.

I would support the Athenian ideal of democracy.

Sparta's society was a bit... harsh. Athens for me!

Athens all the way.

Originally posted by Constantine
I would support the Athenian ideal of democracy.

Where most of the people aren't allowed to vote (in Athenian Democracy)? Every man to his own I suppose...

In Athens, less than 25% of the population were citizens.

I'm an Athens type of guy. Onward Athenian Soldier!

i would probably go for athens because of most of the reasons people already stated

and BTW why didnt you make this a poll;)

Sparta was cooler, but Athens was better! What Godwynn said!

(The Illinois Hoplites have formed!)

Yeah well it is better than being a Spartan Helot.

Not sure why i didn't make this a poll. Oh well. As for me I'm with Athens. True they weren't the best at being fare to their allies or granting citizenship. But Sparta was even worse when it came to diplomacy and brutally supressed those who were not Spartan. So Athens for me! ;) :king:

While I would be for Athens for most of its history, they were just a little too pomp and conceded at the time of the Peloponnesian War, I am glad they were deflated.

Sparta!

-Pat

Life in Sparta was hell. You could get killed for basically anything. Not to mention that they lived without any comfort, the sole purpose of the spartan society was war.
Sure, in Athens only 25% of the population could actually vote, but its still a much better system then the military ruling in Sparta. Furthermore the athenian contribution to philosophy and arts is much bigger.

So go Athens

But if you were a Sparten you might like that sort of thing. And much of Athenian history is made up of "democratic" dicators.

Zeus Soter Kai Nike- Athenai!

Yes most definatley Athens

posted by one of main men, Mongoloid Cow
Where most of the people aren't allowed to vote (in Athenian Democracy)? Every man to his own I suppose...

posted by our welocmed new member, pomsa
In Athens, less than 25% of the population were citizens.

:lol: dont you think these points are kind of voided by the fact that, while Athens may have only had 40% (IIRC, I have seen this number in relation to Athens number of citizens several times) of its population has registernd voters, Sparta truelly was an olgiarchy- and dint even abide be the tenates of personal freedome, and democracy...

besides, considering that at least Athens was occupying the moral high ground, with both democracy, and the first great flowering of free thought, and place whos philosiphers were amoung the, if the very, first to suggest that ALL slavery was wrong- imagine then what might have happend, if that had evnetually become the general veiw from the publics eye as well...

Originally posted by Patroklos
But if you were a Sparten you might like that sort of thing. And much of Athenian history is made up of "democratic" dicators.

I sure wouldn't like it :p

And yes, Athens had many flaws. But aren't they small whe compared to the other regimes in that time? I mean, the ideas of freedom developed in Athens would only come up again in the Enlightment.

neither.
why?

athens excesive democracy is what led to its own downfall

spartas excesive totalitariansim is what led to its own downfall

Honestly I am sure that if I were born in Sparta I would have been discarded as a baby.

I know Sparta got rid of "unfit" babies. They would leave them on a mountain to die. Isn't their a specific name for it?

i choose sparta

I am amazed that people support Athens becuase it had an almost false democracy over Sparta which had an oligarchy; even though Athens was out to make an empire and exterminated anyone in their way.

And this was ancient times by the way. I don't see how anceint democracy is any better than ancient tyrannies or dictatorships. In fact in the ancient times, democratically elected leaders were bigger arseholes and less capable leaders than those who were born and fashioned into the job.

Originally posted by Xen
:lol: dont you think these points are kind of voided by the fact that, while Athens may have only had 40% (IIRC, I have seen this number in relation to Athens number of citizens several times) of its population has registernd voters, Sparta truelly was an olgiarchy- and dint even abide be the tenates of personal freedome, and democracy...

besides, considering that at least Athens was occupying the moral high ground, with both democracy, and the first great flowering of free thought, and place whos philosiphers were amoung the, if the very, first to suggest that ALL slavery was wrong- imagine then what might have happend, if that had evnetually become the general veiw from the publics eye as well...

Moral high ground, I suppose includes Imperialism, Backstabbing, Slavery, etc. etc. Other Greek states also supported free thought; Athens actually sentenced people to death for having free thought such as claiming the Earth was round, for saying that there were irrational numbers, for saying that the world was made up of atoms, and so forth. Great free thought. There were people far earlier who suggested slavery was wrong. The ancient Egyptians (from the very early dynasties) never ever took slaves as they thought it was inhumane and morally unacceptable.

The athenian contribution to democracy and republic was far superior then any other made untill them. Take the book The Republic, by Plato, for exemple. There were some concepts that are modern to this day, like 3 independent Powers.
And like I and others have said, the athenian democracy was not even near perfect, but they created the very sophisticated concept that all men are born equal, something that simply cannot be overlooked. Athens was the first place where the ruler responded to the people, where the power of the ruler was given to him by the people.
In Sparta and the rest of the world there was people who were born to rule and people who were born to obey.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow


Moral high ground, I suppose includes Imperialism, Backstabbing, Slavery, etc. etc. Other Greek states also supported free thought; Athens actually sentenced people to death for having free thought such as claiming the Earth was round, for saying that there were irrational numbers, for saying that the world was made up of atoms, and so forth. Great free thought. There were people far earlier who suggested slavery was wrong. The ancient Egyptians (from the very early dynasties) never ever took slaves as they thought it was inhumane and morally unacceptable.

noi egypian slaves eh? well, I suppose if you want to get on the technicality of war prisoners, you migh tbe right- in effect however it IS slavery, after all, forced servitude is slavery...

ALright, save Socrates- who came up with NONE of your scientific examples of why Athens condemend someone, plase name me ONE exicution that took place becuse of such thoughts, simple answer is, ther are none, the greeks ACCEPTED that the earth was round, and that the natuarl world was made up of Atoms (although there concept of atoms are different from the modern one) irrational numbers too were put to good use, as well as pie and all that.

so dose it just happen that all of your examples led to no one exicution, but rather a treasury trove of historical knowledge?

and other greek states- yes, ones that were under ATHENIAN control- you'll see no such great works of scietific thought in any of Sparta allies, let alone its subject, and never itself during the pre-Alexandrian era, period.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
I am amazed that people support Athens becuase it had an almost false democracy over Sparta which had an oligarchy; even though Athens was out to make an empire and exterminated anyone in their way.

And this was ancient times by the way. I don't see how anceint democracy is any better than ancient tyrannies or dictatorships. In fact in the ancient times, democratically elected leaders were bigger arseholes and less capable leaders than those who were born and fashioned into the job.
no, its not a flase democracy- its a democracy that fits the definition exactley!

all of its CITIZENS get to vote- NEVER, ANYWHERE, dose it EVER say that every one gets a voice- ONLY citizens

and as for leaders- forgetting dear Pericles- who is had survived the plague, may have been able to lead Atjens to victory with his vision

I admit that Athens laid the ground work for democracy. But democracy was no where near perfect. If only a small percentage of people were given the right to vote and you extend citizenship only to them (and that 40% figure you gave was far too high; the 25% sounds more right), then I suppose it's all well and good, and their democracy was sooo great that we can overlook all of their bad deeds.
:rolleyes:

Your Plato example is pretty vise-versa; it is no secret that he was an absolute admirer of Spartan society.

The world was only proven round in the Ptolemaic Empire, a good two hundred years after the Peloponessian War (and even then it was not widely accepted or noticed). Keep things in the time frame.

Also, I forgot the names but people were put to death for thinking there were irrational numbers, or the world was made up of atoms (even though their thoughts on what atoms were is not the same as what we know today)

There was great philosophic thought in amongst Spartan allies too. Don't be over-dismissive.

In my opinion, both Athens and Sparta had their postive and negative sides and both city-states were too proud and arrogant to come to terms . And because of this Greece paid a high price which were war and the eventual conquest of Macedonia over the Greek world.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
I admit that Athens laid the ground work for democracy. But democracy was no where near perfect. If only a small percentage of people were given the right to vote and you extend citizenship only to them (and that 40% figure you gave was far too high; the 25% sounds more right), then I suppose it's all well and good, and their democracy was sooo great that we can overlook all of their bad deeds.
:rolleyes:

Your Plato example is pretty vise-versa; it is no secret that he was an absolute admirer of Spartan society.

The world was only proven round in the Ptolemaic Empire, a good two hundred years after the Peloponessian War (and even then it was not widely accepted or noticed). Keep things in the time frame.

Also, I forgot the names but people were put to death for thinking there were irrational numbers, or the world was made up of atoms (even though their thoughts on what atoms were is not the same as what we know today)

There was great philosophic thought in amongst Spartan allies too. Don't be over-dismissive.

I'm still not sure of that number my self- it may be connected with the causties to Athenian citizenry during the peloponesian war, and not the percentage of people who are its citizens- give me a break, between a real life, and the Byzantine empire, there hasnt been any room for ancient greece for a long time now ;) though i will mention, that as of the time of the tyrants, citizenship was extended to non-native inhabitents of the city- includiong emancipated slaves

as for discoveries- you'll find that ALL mathmatics were made of ample use by the ancient greeks- including irrational numbers, particuraly in Athnes, all this was described in a none to fascinateing lecture by a math teacher (whom, I feel it should be mentioned, has a doctored or two to his name)

and YES, the ideal, and though of democracy IS more then a good enogh boon to make up for anything Athens may have done wrong ten times over!

I reckon it was only a matter of time before some other place came up with the ideal of Democracy, inside or outside of Greece. And it's not its invention of the idea that should count - it's how it is implemented IMO and Athens didn't implement it too well (though I'll admit a million times better than Rome)

The 40% figure probably came during or after the 30 Tyrants then.

But _Philosopher_ says it best though IMO...

In my opinion, both Athens and Sparta had their postive and negative sides and both city-states were too proud and arrogant to come to terms . And because of this Greece paid a high price which were war and the eventual conquest of Macedonia over the Greek world.

But I still support Sparta more than Athens for this war. :D

by tyrants, i mean the pre-democracy tyrants...

although as for democratic ideals, it is Athens who fully refined them into a pure demcracy, with direct participation by citizens

ROme, as we all know was a very weird twist on oligarchy, that somehow ended up in a semi democratic state- although it ended up in that state about the same time as Athens arrived at demcracy (or actualey, a year before it...)

It couldn't have been the pre-democracy tyrants or else the citizenships would have had to have been removed because I remember that no foreign citizens or or people descended from foriegners for a certain number of generations could not claim citizenship; and 40% of the population is too large a percentage when you consider children, women, slaves, foreigners, etc. etc. did not get citizenship.

The Spartans does seem a lot tougher than Athenians. They are the ones to come up with government subsidized schools where they train their soldiers.
The only things that I dislike about the Spartans are that the soldiers were taught to view women only as sexual objects so they won't get too attached. And the fact that they are required to practice homosexuality.

Spartans because I like fighting more than I like losing.

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
It couldn't have been the pre-democracy tyrants or else the citizenships would have had to have been removed because I remember that no foreign citizens or or people descended from foriegners for a certain number of generations could not claim citizenship; and 40% of the population is too large a percentage when you consider children, women, slaves, foreigners, etc. etc. did not get citizenship.

this depends- in ancient times, 13 years of age was the standard for gaining citizenship, and it was the tyrant Solon who extendend citizenship to immigrents to the city who were tradesmen, merchants, and other such ocupations of the ancient "middle class"

Sparta.

Originally posted by Xen
Zeus Soter Kai Nike- Athenai!
Athens was occupying the moral high ground, with both democracy, and the first great flowering of free thought, and place whos philosiphers were amoung the, if the very, first to suggest that ALL slavery was wrong- imagine then what might have happend, if that had evnetually become the general veiw from the publics eye as well...

Ah, didn't they loot the league treasury at Delphi? They didn't
hold the high ground when It came to foreign policy, especially
when dealing with their league allies.

Both states were due for extinction, Athens with it's class wars
eating it's foundations, and Sparta with it's no progress ethos.

The real advances happened in the colonies, like Syrauce.

I'll side with Maceadon.

Delphi? the defacto religious capital of Greece- NEVER, you perhaps are confusing it wth Delian league treasury, which they loot, but moved into Athens, in action was legal- if a bit popus in regards tyo the other cities.

I will also ask- what the hell are you talking about with "class wars"- the only thing that comes close would be the Roman social wars, and even they are a far cry from being what you seem to be talking about (the social wars were a war by Romes allies to gain Roman citizenship, and while they lost, they were granted citizenship eventually anyway)

also, care to explain what advances came from the colonies, like Syracuse, during the era of the peolponesian war?

I think he means after the war when both Sparta and more notably Athens went down the gurgler.

Originally posted by _Philospher_
One of the oldest political wars (The Peloponnesian Wars) was fought between the allies/subjects of Athens and the allies of Sparta. For those who do know the details about the war, who would you have fought or supported?
Athens was a Democracy, while in Sparta you had to join the Army and serve till you were 60. So I'd pick Athens.

Sparta was to its people as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany was to theirs. I would retrospectively support Athens.

Athens' ideals fit mine more, but Athens was becoming corrupt. The Delian League was supposed to be a "Confederacy" to protect against the Persians. Then when members of the Delian Legue felt that Persia was no longer a threat and left, Athens conquered them. Athens had set a trap, and a darn good one too. Personally, I'm glad Sparta showed that they weren't the only super-power...Of course, you could apply the same thing to us Americans!:lol:...Not the conquering our allies thing, though.:)

Edit: Then again, Athens was much more culturally advanced...If athenian and spartan ideals could combine in some way, negating all opposites, it would be the coolest civ!:D Hmm...Getting Idea for mod.:)

Edit2:I am amazed that people support Athens becuase it had an almost false democracy over Sparta which had an oligarchy; even though Athens was out to make an empire and exterminated anyone in their way.

And this was ancient times by the way. I don't see how anceint democracy is any better than ancient tyrannies or dictatorships. In fact in the ancient times, democratically elected leaders were bigger arseholes and less capable leaders than those who were born and fashioned into the job.
This statement reignaites my faith in Sparta! I'm still pro-democratic, but Athens became it's own worst enemy.:undecide:

Like Amenhotep says I too would be curious to know how powerful Greece would of been had Sparta anbd Athens resolved issues and joined the greek world as one state. I have no doubt they would of been strong, IMO.

Originally posted by _Philospher_
Like Amenhotep says I too would be curious to know how powerful Greece would of been had Sparta anbd Athens resolved issues and joined the greek world as one state. I have no doubt they would of been strong, IMO.

Can somebody say new scenario?:D

Originally posted by pomsa
In Athens, less than 25% of the population were citizens.

Even worse: it was 10%

I would support Athens because a democracy is better than an oligarchy, even if its a small democracy.

Originally posted by Hygro


Even worse: it was 10%

I would support Athens because a democracy is better than an oligarchy, even if its a small democracy.

if it was ANY less the 20% Athens, more or less, would have EVERY SINGLY citizen during the peloponesian wars

Athens was a city os OVER 100,000 people

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
I think he means after the war when both Sparta and more notably Athens went down the gurgler.

No, I meant a lot of the people who made the advances in philosophy, mathematics, medicence and history were'nt born in Athens. (Just like LA or New York today)

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
but Athens was becoming corrupt[/B]

The "class" war between the rich and poor was also paralyzing
the functions of state, elections would become gang street fights between factions.

Both city-states were harsh (and to some extent brutal) by modern standards with Sparta basically being a military dictatorship but Athnes having more slaves and harsher treatment of women. I'd support Athens through because they actually had free-time to develope a culture. Social life in Sparta on the other hand was geared entirely toward war with little energy left over for anything else (hense the term spartian meaning purely functional and undecrative). Athens may have ultimately lost the war but they had a MUCH larger impact on the future of Western civilization. :goodjob:

Sparta without a doubt. Their ideals, philosophy and way of life is much more in line with my own.

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Sparta without a doubt. Their ideals, philosophy and way of life is much more in line with my own.

but your ideals in this instance are hardly acceptable to the masses, and therefore, wrong. :p

The masses accept and love them. If they know what's good for them.
And anyway, the masses are hardly a measure of right or wrong; that would make reality television and disco good things.

Originally posted by Ozz

The "class" war between the rich and poor was also paralyzing
the functions of state, elections would become gang street fights between factions.

again WHAT CLASS WAR?

I have to agree with Xen, WHAT CLASS WAR? I typed in "Athenian Class War" in google, and got nothing compared to what ur saying...There was no class war...We would agree if you cited some info...:undecide:

sparta