Roster:
Greebley (JUST PLAYED)
Handy900 (UP)
BarbSlinger (ON DECK)
TMcC

Map: standard, continents, 70% water
Condition: wet, temperate, 4 billion years
Civ: Mayans
Difficulty: Monarch
Opponents: 7 random
Barbarians: sedentary
Rules: all victory conditions enabled (including wonder), AI respawn is off.

The game is an Always War game. We are playing the more "tactless" variant. No trades are allowed, but you are not obligated to tell them they are at war unless they contact you, in which case just declare war (diplomats slaughtered). Players are also encouraged to attack units of other civs when they appear. Dialing them up to declare war is allowed.

You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 48 total to play. If you need a days extension, then mention this before the 48 hours are up and it is yours. If you can't play within 72 total, I would prefer players switch places, or you can ask for a skip (you can also play fewer turns, if you can't finish them).

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. I would like to play an "exploit free" game.

Variant:
One of the purposes of this game is to see how strong the new army pillaging abilities are.
1) The first great leader must become an army and sent out to pillage. If at any point we don't have a pillaging army in the field, the next great leader must also become a pillaging army.
2) If at least one army is pillaging, then the player may choose to use a Great Leader to rush a build at his own discretion. It is however preferred that the player make another army whenever he can. If it is turned into an army then it should be sent out to pillage.
3) An army's primary purpose is pillaging. They may attack enemy units if the odds are greatly in their favor. They shouldn't be spending most of their time on the side-lines healing.
4) They can be used on defense on a temporary basis if an emergency arises. Use your own discretion on this.
5) Having extra units travelling with the army is allowed (and encouraged, if they don't slow down the army and we can spare them). The idea is to break the backs of the AI civ by demolishing his improvements. Anything to further this is good.
6) Non-army units may also pillage if we want.
7) When taking towns you may either choose to raze it, or to sell all the improvements on the turn it is captured, and starve it to size 1 before letting it grow again.
8) As an alternative, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city; move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is actually considered an exploit in by strict RBCiv rules in certain cases. I feel it fits into the general theme of this SG to do this however (the one case you shouldn't do is to build the city one square deeper into enemy territory)

Just some notes and observations on pillaging:
1) The AI seems to take into account the defensive terrain when determining when to attack. A spearman can sneak into enemy territory by sticking to mountains and hills. Once our armies get out-dated, they may need to do this as well.
2) Cutting off the capitol will eliminate his abilty to trade, so the capitol is a good target.
3) Remember that in Conquests an army can pillage as a free move, and gets +1 movement over the base units used.
4) I noticed that bombardment will be concentrated on our armies in Conquests. Beware of stopping on the coast if the AI has a fleet nearby.

Here is our start after the first turn:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/GR2_Mayan.JPG

The Save (end of 4000 BC) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_Maya_4000BC.zip)

Link to Gingerbread Man's post on Sherman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1387672#post1387672)

I guess from prior posts we are assuming/hoping that the southern end is unoccupied and we will backfill after settling north.
I'm at work so if I'm calculating right since depotism gives no food bonus on grass mining/roading the cow for a 4.2.1 tile would be my first move and then mining roading the NE BG for a 2.2.1 on expansion. The forest will give a 1.2.0 until roads are there and I would probably time a chop on one for granary build. The incense hills are 1.3.2 with road/mine. At pop 4 the mined cow, mined BG's and mined incense will give a +3fpt, 10spt. We can only get to +4fpt max so a 5 turn settler factory is all in depotism. Hopefully some plains are N. How many turns to 1st expansion? there is probably enough time to mine road incense before mine/road BG.

Preturn/4000 BC: Science to max, set research to warrior code.
3950 BC(1): Worker irrigates, roads cow.
3900 BC(2):
3850 BC(3):
3800 BC(4):
IBT:
Chichen Izta: Warrior->Warrior.
3750 BC(5):
Warrior heads West to start (water seen to the east so it is less likely to lead anywhere).
Start mine/road on a bonus grassland (NE) that will come into use after our first culture expansion.
3700 BC(6): We will have a lot of incense.
3650 BC(7):
3600 BC(8):
IBT: Chichen Itza: Warrior->Walls
3550 BC(9): 20% lux. The new warrior will explore a short way east.
3500 BC(10): Hut seen to W. There is one near our capitol unvisited as we are not ready for barbarians yet.
3450 BC(11): More water to the E it is becoming less likely to go anywhere.
3400 BC(12): Pop hut and get a warrior. My regular warrior may head back.
3350 BC(13): It is one turn to walls. Since granary-wall is better than wall granary if we are not attacked, I switch to granary. Lux raised to handle size 4 (40%)
3300 BC(14):
3250 BC(15):
3200 BC(16):
3150 BV(17):Two warriors in our city now, but it grew. Its growth is slowed and granary sped to make things work out right.
3100 BC(18): Incense hooked up. Lux to 0.
3050 BC(19):
IBT: Chichen Izta: Granary->Worker
3000 BC(20):

Noone encountered yet. I have a warrior watchiing the approach to spot intruders. We really could use a worker or two, so we can get our production up quickly. For building the walls and Barracks, you can MM our town to 10 shields and slow growth temporarily (so we can get walls up in 2). Note that the water below the guardian warrior is salty. This means that the NW is very likely the only way into our lands.

Note that I chose the worker next, but maybe walls or barracks are better/safer. The worker first gets us the advantage of extra worker turns if we can get away with it. Handy, one idea would be MM barracks in 4 and then wait on the walls since we can get them up before we were attacked.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_BC3000.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_BC3000.zip)

Barbslinger, I played before reading your post. I did start as you mention. I didn't think of the forest chop, so didn't do it. I think a forest chop is now 4 (3 ind?) turns so I really need to start considering it.

I don't think the insense helps the shields at all. An incense hill gets us the normal +2 shields in despot as it only adds to the square's gold.

Looks like a lot of grassland that as mentioned before gives no food bonus with irrigation. We will need to get irrigation to other cities in preparation for gov't transition of course, but workers have more value right now for us roading/mining. Once we get up and running a couple spare workers can set up irrigation network. I can't double-check on despotism penalty because I am at work. Is the cow tile only giving 4 food right now? If it is I would mine over it now and then re-irrigate timed with government change.
Looks like we have a penisular start and can put cities W and then N to start with and backfill later. Hopefully we can find a nice kill zone for our first victim! Jeez, what if we're alone on an island.
The insense will give the other shield after mining. The other BG should be mined first of course.

The beauty of the Agricultural trait is that if you are on a river, then you get +1 food in the central square. This puts us at +5 for growing every 2 turns.

Hills and forest are the same in despotism. I don't think we will be mining hills until we get closer to monarchy. We just have to keep as many forests as we will need.

Got it Should play & post by midnight tonight. Kind of a busy Saturday here. Keep posting thought & ideas.

Handy's first wrong guess of the game was that attacks would come from the NE. The NW looks more like our war zone. No contact in 20 turns is a little scary, I hope we are not on an "Australia" island continent.

Greebley Good move switching to Granary. With no AI's in sight, the walls & barracks can be built a little later.

Gosh I hope there is iron somewhere on those hills & mountains.

Second the hope we are not on an island.

Away from my Civ computer, so I can't look at the save (and the pictures aren't really displaying clearly anyway ...)

So, here are a few thoughts:

The cow stays irrigated, even after a gov't change, until the Capital is locked in at size 12 (no more workers and settlers)and needs the extra shield. We can hold off mining the hills until we have seen the need to chop all the forests, but we should prioritize putting a road on one of the incense.

Guess at a build-order for the capital: worker, chop-assisted barracks, warrior (or spear, depending on how the shields shake out), settler. Pair sent to hill 3 tiles W of capital. One problem we are facing is that the "front" will be across the river from the capital, hence we won't have one-turn troop movement. This would allow us to put that first city one more tile away, but it's hard to pass up a defensive bonus. Handy will figure it out based on the lay of the land ahead of the scout.

I don't know what our settling strategy should be. If we have a lot of room, we have the option of settling hard at the AI to try to grab as much land as quickly as possible. Settling it would be easier than fighting for it. This strategy runs the risk of giving us a harder line to defend, which is probably the most important consideration. The second option is to "draw a line in the sand", and just decide where we want the front (likely two rings from the capital), and then concentrate on settling behind those lines. This seems like a better idea, especially if the island is narrow enough to allow a two-city front. Advantage is easier defense, and we can get some unthreatened cities out there early to boost our production.

Since they changed the rules for MGLs, I think we are going to need a dedicated wonder city. Ideally it would be on a river (or lake)and coastal, to keep our cascade options open. I can't see the picture clearly enough to tell if such a site exists in our first ring. It would be great if this could be our 3rd city, but let the situations on the ground dictate. If we have our chouce of wonders, I have to figure the G. Library is best, but if we get a coastal location, the G. Lighthouse would be very useful. Being first to have contact with all Civs will be a huge advantage in this game. We may also need to use the sea to make contacts on our continent, or else we may be reliant on armies to find civs after the first.

Originally posted by Greebley
The beauty of the Agricultural trait is that if you are on a river, then you get +1 food in the central square. This puts us at +5 for growing every 2 turns.


We will soon have a 4 turn settler factory! Five extra food per turn means we grow from 5 to 7 pop in 4 turns.

After we mine the BG to the SE, and mine the other 2 grasslands, we will have 8 shields at pop 5. 8x4 = 32 shileds and a 4 turn factory. If we MM, we may even be able to 3 settlers + 1 warrior every 12 or 13 turns. I'll work on that math later.

The hardest thing with a warrior+settler when you don't have 6 food, is that you have to build the warrior in one turn while maintaining 5 food at size 5. So you need 4 bonus grassland to do it. I don't think we had that. It is easier if you have 6 food - you go to 10 shields with +4 food, then do 6 food the next turn.

The smallest you can do it is 6 shields at size 5 and 7 shields at size 6 with at least one forest square in addition.

You get six shields the first turn, grow the second gives you 8, you then MM back to 5 food, 7 shields for the next turn. The final turn you again get the forest for 9 shields 6+8+7+9=30.

This is because you get the shields bonus for the larger size on the turn you grow.

Perhaps we should send the watching warrior out to discover another civilization if it exists. I think our play will be very different if we are all alone.

GR2- 3000 BC (pre turn)
Before enter.
Leave build as a worker. Then I plan a couple of warriors (to scout) while the workers improve the Grass tiles, after which it should be settlers every 4 turns. We can build walls in 4 turns if we make contact. If we are on an island, walls are a wasted build at this point. Leave slider at 90/0 to get warrior code in 2 and keep the citizens happy.
I thought about moving the warrior out to scout, but that would require moving the slider to 80/20 and warrior code would come in 3 turns. I want warrior code ASAP so we can beeline to Iron working and see where the iron is.

Current plans for the next warrior (scout) is to send him S to make sure there are no luxuries down there in the dark. That happened to me in an AW game, luxury was 1 tile in the dark for 1500 years. It’s a long shot for sure, but…
Pre flight
F1 – slider is 90/0 warrior code due in 2 12 gold in bank losing 1 GPT.
Bummer, the utility program I installed to show Smiley Faces on the F1 screen is gone. I’ll need to reinstall that. Atari / Firaxis should make it part of the canned program.
Our capital will revolt if it hits size 6 @ zero happy slider.
F2 – 1 incense hooked up already by Greebley :goodjob:
F3 – 2 warriors in capital needed for police duty.
F10 we are playing America, Aztecs, Iroquois, Inca, Ottomans, Rome, and Carthage.

Turn 1 – 2950 BC
Change the name of our warrior scout to “Blazer” in honor of the Yankee civil war scout Richard Blazer Richard Blazer (http://www.ohiou.edu/oupress/headquartersbrush.htm) of the 91st Ohio Volunteer Infantry. Great name for a scout. Kind of ironic we are playing as a northern General in the civil war and our UU will be enslaving captured enemy units.
Worker moves to BG to mine & road. Then he will return to the tiles where he just built a road to mine. We lose a turn moving the worker, but get a extra shield from the BG, so it’s worth the turn to move I think.
Blazer heads toward mountain.

Turn 2 – 2900 BC
We get Warrior Code. Set to Bronze working due in 12. Slider is 90/0 losing 1 GPT and we only have 10 gold. I’ll watch the bank to make sure we do not lose any units.
Chichen- worker – warrior due in 1. (he’s a regular, but good enough for a scout.
Blazer moves onto the mountain. Green Border! YES!! :jump: If we are on an island, it’s big enough for two. Probably this is a continent, two on an island has never happened to me in a continent game. I’m guessing Aztecs or Inca.

F1 slider is 80/0 BW in 14 turns, losing 0 GPT.

Turn 3 – 2850 BC
Chichen – warrior – barracks
Switch city build to barracks. By moving MM the tiles, we can get 10 SPT, building a barracks in 4 turns with zero waste. Our growth is slowed to every 5 turns (was 2) but we will need the barracks ASAP to survive the next few sets of turns. The green border is big enough to know that they have at least 2 cities. Not sure of we will be able to settle the hill to the west before the first wave attacks. More likely we will back settle 1 city, kill their first wave, then settle the hill as our 3rd city
Workers will mine (4) and road the BG, then move to mine the Grass
We are losing 2 GPT, and have 9 in the bank.
Move warrior (renamed “Tonto”) to the south.
Blazer moves towards a hut.


Turn 4 – 2800 BC
Good news, Blazer pops a hut & gets a map of nearby territory. I can’t see a unit so no contact & no war yet. In the spirit of AW I would have made contact & declared war if I could have seen a unit. We will be at war soon enough.

Turn 5 – 2750 BC
BG is mined. MM to move citizen from a forest to the BG. Workers will road in 1 turn.
I’m not changing the barracks build. There is a pig patch of shadow to the west of our capital. We could see a couple of warriors come from the shadow on any turn near our capital. If we get fancy & pop a settler & the new city gets razed because of a light garrison, we will have dug a deep hole.
Chichen will grow in 3 turns when the barracks is finished. Probably will build a javelin, then a settler.
Still no contact. I hope they are at war with a civ up north. J
F1 Drop slider to 80/0 BW due in 9. losing 1 GPT, 6 in the bank..

Turn 6 – 2710 BC
Turn on “color blind” help to see who the enemy is. It’s the Aztecs. You can turn it off in the “Preferences” section if it bothers you.
Scouting. Blazer spots at least 2 silks near the Aztec city of Teotihuscan. Tonto finds grass & the coast (surprise!)

Turn 7 – 2670 BC
Chichen – barracks – javelin (due in 3 we grow to size 7 in 4)
Building a javelin, then a settler so we can turn happy the slider back down. We need to be careful on each settlement. If we over settle we will get razed. Better safe than sorry.
Still no contact. Aztecs must be at war up north. Is so, it’s great news for us.
Welcome to AW. Slider is now 40/10 so we don’t riot. We are broke. (4 gold)
I’m building a road to the hill NW of the capital for the first city site. It’s across a river, which is a major bummer for movement, but we need to grab it while we can.

Turn 8 – 2630 BC
Explore.
The turn year #’s are really weird. Is it supposed to be this way?
Javelin due in 2, grow to size 7 in 3.

Turn 9 – 2590 BC
Tonto pops hut, gets 2 barbs :mad:

IBT
Tonto defends against a barb.

Turn 10 –2550 BC (a “normal” year ending in a “50”)
Chichen – javelin – settler (I MM’d to get the settler in 3 turns. We grow in 1 turn.)
Send javelin to cover the worker building a road to the hill for the second city placement.
Tonto kills barb no more barbs.
Blazer has scouted west as far as possible.

Next player.
1. Slider is 30/10 making 0 GPT. Chichen will grow next turn, so you will need to move the slider to 20/20 before you end your first turn. When the settler pops (in 3 turns) you can move adjust the sliders.
2. Currently Chichen is set to produce 3 extra FPT and 10 SPT to get a settler in 3 turns. After this settler pops out, set Chichen to get 5 extra FPT and you will have a 4-turn settler factory.
3. First build in the new city must be walls. That is where they are likely to attack first.

Team Discussion
A dot map is in the next post below with possible city sites.

1. Red circle with yellow middle is the next city build.
2. The red circles with blue middle are river sites.
3. The hollow red circles are not on a river, but are the same distance from the capital in RCP terms as the first city build. Not that we are slaves to an RCP build, but that’s their distance and low corruption is a big plus. Once you “learn RCP” it is hard to “unlearn” it. ;)
4. The green circle with a red middle is a good site to establish a “ 2-front” barrier for the AI. It’s not on a hill, but you can’t have everything.
5. AW is a war of attrition & efficiency. We need low corruption cities near the capital at first. Expanding too far out where we cannot reinforce is sure death in AW. We are looking for a 10 to 1 kill ratio. Slow steady expansion is the Key. Make sure you can hold a city before you build or conquer it.

STILL NOT AT WAR YET I never did see an aztec unit to declare war on.


smoke 2550 BC not zipped save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Smoke-Jaguar_of_the_Maya,_2550_BC.SAV)

The pic is from 3000BC (before I played my turns. Still it is big enough to see the potential build sites.

1. Red circle with yellow middle is the next city build.
2. The red circles with blue middle are river sites. I checked by seeing if the tile produces 1 gold "as is". If it does, it's on the river.
3. The hollow red circles are not on a river, but are the same distance from the capital in RCP terms as the first city build. Not that we are slaves to an RCP build, but that’s their distance and low corruption is a big plus. Once you “learn RCP” it is hard to “unlearn” it. ;)
4. The green circle with a red middle is a good site to establish a “ 2-front” barrier for the AI. It’s not on a hill, but you can’t have everything.
5. AW is a war of attrition & efficiency. We need low corruption cities near the capital at first. Expanding too far out where we cannot reinforce is sure death in AW. We are looking for a 10 to 1 kill ratio. Slow steady expansion is the Key. Make sure you can hold a city before you build or conquer it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1000bc.JPG

The western world at 2550 BC including Aztec borders.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_2500bc.JPG

Things seem to be coming along smoothly, although there are better opponents to have than the Aztecs. Move 2 units can be a PITA. At least they're no real threat on offense.

Have a couple of comments on the dot-map.

If the green circle/red dot moves one S, it would be on a hill and on fresh water. It would still be within 3 tiles of the red circle/yellow dot city. Either spot is three turns from the capital (due to the river) and one from the second city. The new placement gets the defensive bonus and doesn't require an aqueduct.

Eliminate the western-most red circle/blue dot, and move the southern red circle/blue dot 1 tile NW, to the forest SE of the mountain. This site is still on fresh water (regardless of whether it is considered to be on the river), is one turn from the capital, and would also be one turn from the new green circle/red dot site. Founding both of these cities would therefore put the new green circle/red dot city within two turns of the capital, as units could go around the river.

I can't see the SE portion of the map well enough to comment on the rest of the dot-map. Not terribly important, as founding three cities is going to take some time.

T_McC,

I totally agree with your comments on the dot map. I should have seen those placements were superior. Thanks for pointing it out.
Too late tonight, but I'll fix a new map tomorrow.

Originally posted by handy900
3. The hollow red circles are not on a river, but are the same distance from the capital in RCP terms as the first city build. Not that we are slaves to an RCP build, but that’s their distance and low corruption is a big plus. Once you “learn RCP” it is hard to “unlearn” it. ;)

Don't forget that there is a penalty for RCP in Conquests.
Their 'fix' is worse than the disease. Also the FP is broken. This is going to have a major impact on your game.
The details are in this thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68415)

Matt

Originally posted by Matt_G


Don't forget that there is a penalty for RCP in Conquests.
Their 'fix' is worse than the disease. Also the FP is broken. This is going to have a major impact on your game.
The details are in this thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68415)

Matt

Yikes, guess I need to read that :( . FP is a key to winning an AWM game.

Thanks very much for the tip and the link.

Greebley -

The best build IMHO in the capital is to MM to get a jav every 3 turns then a setler every 3 turns. This is the safe path, and probably the one we should take. Unescorted settlers in AW with an aztec 2 move unit is a major risk.

Capital city build for a jav + settler every 6 turns. If you want a copy of this excel spreadsheet, let me know. It's in test mode big time and not user friendly at all.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Build_Greebley.JPG

[Edit: Gingerbread Man, you are up. Give us an "I got it" to let us know you are aware of this fact. Because it is thanksgiving weekend you will have thru tuesday for your "48".

Here are my own thoughts on the front line. The green line is likely the only way by land to get into our lands. I think it makes an ideal bottleneck to kill enemy troops. I think we will want to settle all lands behind it.

The yellow cities were based primarily on TMcC's suggestions.

The red cities seem worth building as forward bases in the Catapult era. They can shoot down approaching and passing enemy troops. The yellow towns have the hill defense (so may be better initially, but allow the enemies onto the hills making them more difficult to dislodge.

It might be possible to use this time before the Aztecs spot us to crank out some settlers. We may even want to send our exploring warrior back for now and build as many towns as we can before the onslaught starts (with some troops too of course).
Perhaps a combination of 4 turn settlers, and Handy's 6 turn pattern.

Here is my picture:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_Front.jpg

Greebley, very nice catch on the ocean. Should have done a city dot map at the end of my turn, not the beginning. :wallbash:

Would moving the northern most red dot 1 tile NW be a good idea?

A few unescorted 4 turn settlers to our rear after we build & hold the western front is a good idea too I think. Barbs are not roaming, and the Ai can't send a galley back there for a while. Aztecs apparent war to their north has give us some breathing room one does not usually get in an AW game. Let's use it.

The only problem with moving the northern red dot 1 square NW would be that it is possible for the enemy to then move troops to the yellow dot towns without going within 1 square of either red dot towns (go east from the tabacco/leaves). It would mean more defense was needed in the yellow towns and therefore not available in the red dot towns.

I put a question mark for the southern dot because of the forests. Though come to think of it, the forests are easier to cut now.

One final thing on the FP. It should be noted that it is not entirely useless for the following reason:

As I understand it, the problem is that it doesn't make the OCN any better. Instead of the least corrupt cities all being clustered around the capitol, they alternate back and forth in some manner - essentially you have moved around which cities are corrupt, but not reduced corruption with this. This can even be bad as your FP cities may not have markets and such so you lose money in the short term with the move (until the new cities have been built up). So the rank corruption is not improved by the FP.

However there is the distance corruption component as well. This IS improved by the building of your FP, since the distances become shorter for cities near the FP. Based on the game I played (where the FP did actually help - my gold went up), I believe this is a true statement. (Matt_G, if you are reading this thread, I would be curious if you think my analysis is correct - Thanks for the pointer BTW).

So the rules of the unpatched FP builds become:
1) The FP will strengthen certain cities at the cost of making other worse. Be aware of this affect when you build the FP. You can lose cash if the cities made worse have improvements, but the others do not.
2) The FP will improve distance corruption. It should be placed strategically for this affect (and this affect alone).

As for the reverse RCP, I think we should place our buildings entirely based on location. Yes, there is a hit for making the cities the same distance, but it is not a game breaker to my mind. By placing the cities in their best locations you are partially negating the bad effects. Additionally, you are training yourselves for when the whole corruption mess is finally fixed.

I think your right on the money Greebley. It depends on where you build the FP.

I have read of people building their FP far away from their palace (relatively speaking) and it made the second ring of cities around
their palace 1/1 suckland.
It's my understanding that the closer the FP is to your palace, the better off you are.
I am no alexman when it comes to understanding corruption and/or these damn bugs though. :lol:

The main reason I posted that, was I didn't want to see you guys go with a RCP build and get hit with a triple whammy. :eek:

The FP and GPT bugs are bad enough as it is, without getting hit with that as well. :)

BTW Handy900 I sent you a PM.

I see your point on the tobacco leaves. :) Thanks.

Originally posted by Matt_G

BTW Handy900 I sent you a PM.

I got it, Thanks. I sent you a reply.

However there is the distance corruption component as well. This IS improved by the building of your FP, since the distances become shorter for cities near the FP. Based on the game I played (where the FP did actually help - my gold went up), I believe this is a true statement. (Matt_G, if you are reading this thread, I would be curious if you think my analysis is correct - Thanks for the pointer BTW). I would agree with this also. I was able to reduce corruption with the FP at a distance of 8. That number fits with what Matt_G says. I'd also note that the FP is a corrupt free city. Another strategic location would see the FP placed to breakup tied distances, or RCP cities. Good luck with this one. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in C3C

Back to my Civ computer, so here are some more thoughts.

First, my take on a dot-map

I really didn't like the eastern-most yellow dot from Greebley's map, as if it and the northern red dot were both founded, the city on the first yellow dot would have first-ring competition on both sides, and would likely end up useless. One offshoot of the FP bug is that we are only going to get so many productive cities, and having one that would struggle to even reach size 6 is probably not a good use of a settler. What was the advantage (that I'm missing) to founding a city on the eastern yellow dot?

So yellow dots are first-ring cities, red dots would be catapult bases/spots to move the line forward and allow the yellow dots to be productive cities. Since that isn't a lake in the south, we don't lose much by settling off the water. The blue box is a catapult/offensive troop rally point, where we can serve both of the western yellow dots. The southern yellow dot may not see a lot of troops, and could possibly be productive from the time it is founded.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_DotMap.JPG

If we wanted to do a river/coastal wonder city, the only candidate is a forested square E of the capital. It would have two hills and three mountains, but is a little short on bonus grasslands.

I think I like your dotmap better TMcC than mine. Moving the red dots does give us more space but still gives us cover on all ways in. The eastern city was trying to be on a river, but you are right that the lake is equally good.

Your comment on a wonder city - Do we want to make this a priority? If so the best wonder city is actually the blue rally point on your map. It is on the river, on a hill, and has 6 BG's withint its workable land. Is there any way we can work that into our plan? (put our wonder city on the blue rally point). FYI, I verified that the square is on the river. It was a little difficult to tell otherwise.

It might even be worth sacrificing the hill locations for such a good wonder building city, especially if our kill zones are the red cities.

I need to go to bed, but TMcC if you have time, see if you can come up with a good dot map with the blue rally point settled.

I'll take a look at it tomorrow morning, but my initial reaction is that I really don't want to sacrifice the high ground for our first two cities. It's like getting free walls, and works even after growth beyond 6. it would also be quite a gamble to commit a city that will be on the front line (at least for the early part of the game) to building wonders.

My second reaction is to look at the eastern yellow dot and wonder ... fresh water, 6 hills, forests, at least two BG (hard to tell without the game being open), not on the front lines, hmmm ...

After looking at the game, this is the best I could come up with if we start with a city on the blue square.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_DotMap21.JPG

The western yellow dot and the red dot do seal off the rest of our territory, as no units can pass without being adjacent to one of the cities, but ... it's going to take a while to be able to found those cities. The Aztec attack should come down through the northern yellow dot, so the blue square will be a front-line city for a good portion of its early existence. This is not the easiest position to defend, although it is on a hill, because there are so many adjacent hills for attackers to attack from. This arrangement also has no cities within 1 turn of the capital. [Edit: Shift southern yellow dot 1 NE to solve the problem.] With the previous arrangement, the southern city would be within 1 turn, and the northern yellow dot within 1 turn after Engineering.

This arrangement could be done, but we wouldn't be able to start building wonders at blue square for quite a few turns. As an alternative, we could use the first dot-map, and have the southern yellow dot be a wonder city. Not great terrain, only 2 bonus grass, but there are 5 forests to chop (figure 2 more BG). Four BG and 5 hills means good production after a gov't swap, and mined regular grass is just as good as mined BG during our inevitable Despotism GA.

Pros for this dot-map: If blue box is on the river, it is a terrific wonder city. With a little worker labor, 15 shields before corruption at size 6 without a border expansion. After a gov't swap it could generate 22 shields at size 9 before corruption. Unless someone gets a cow/hill capital, this will probably be the most productive city on the continent. This dot-map, especially with the southern dot moved 1 NE, could allow for some fairly big cities. Since we will be limited in the # of cities we can use, having them all able to use 12 land tiles will be very useful.

Cons for this dot-map: Both the western yellow dot and the red dot have to be founded before the blue box can start on wonders. Our workers will have to be closer to the front line to improve tiles around blue box. Red dot is kind of far away from the capital to be productive in Despotism.

After thinking about it, this dot-map is a gambit towards winning the game. If we weren't playing always war, this would be my preferred dot-map. Since it appears that the Aztecs are at war with someone else, this becomes less of a gambit. If we can establish the front away from blue box, that city could go a long way towards winning this game. We can't leader-rush wonders, but neither can anybody else. I think the Aztecs will be sufficiently distracted and spent to give us the 20 light combat turns we need to pull this off, so my vote is for this dot map, with the cities founded (1) Northern yellow dot, (2) Blue box, with a handful of units to jam up the hills, (3) Red dot to help keep our workers safe around blue box. If we get to (3) without having blue box really threatened, it could be downhill from there.

Upon further review ...

I've changed my mind back to the original dot map. I have to agree with something Handy wrote, that we first must prevent losing the game before we can win it. The best way to prevent losing is to build cities on hills early. We won't have time to build wonders for quite a while, so the southern forest site can get some worker attention and be prepared for a G. Lib pre-build when the time comes. Not building on the hills is a tremendous gamble, especially when we don't have a three-defense UU. (If we were the Greeks, I'd want the second dot-map.) So now I want to found cities on the two hills, and play defense for a while.

I also took note of who we're facing: Of the seven civs, 5 have ancient age UU's. We get to face Jags, the Jag-clone scouts (will be an even bigger PITA than Jags, with hills-as-roads ability), two of the three 3-defense UU's (Legions and NuMercs), and Mounted Warriors. We will be playing defense (and slave-poaching) for almost this entire age. This also caused my thinking to lean to the more defensive dot-map. The other two civs are the UU-less (essentially) Americans and the Ottomans. I really want the Ottomans on this continent, so we can deal with them before Mil.Trad.

I'll be frank, I expect to lose this game. Our UU has a long useful life, but isn't particularly useful on offense or defense. It's utility is as a "clean-up" unit. Our civ traits allow our cities to grow a little faster, but the only relevant cheap building we get is an aqueduct. Firaxis/Atari saw fit to kneecap Industrious, making it much less useful. Armies are much more powerful, and especially so in the hands of the human, but not being able to rush Great Wonders with military leaders is a huge price to pay. Look at the successful AW SG's, how many of them include the phrases "rushed Pyramids" or "rushed Sun Tzu's" or "rushed Great Library" ... we may have to try to win this without building any Wonders. (Not so bad, we'll just have to capture them.) The final insult to this type of game are the bugs in Conquests. Not having a working FP is really going to hurt, as it will limit the number of useful cities we can obtain. When you have to self-research every technology, this could make things very sluggish after the late Medieval Age. The gpt bug may be even worse, as it potentially allows all other civs to research at >100% capacity simultaneously. We won't be paying GPT, but we also won't be receiving it. I fear this could lead to an accelerated AI tech pace, since they are allowed to just pull money/beakers out of thin air. One potential benefit of this is that if AI wars start, MA's could go flying around at breakneck pace. Not a worry for us, we'll be at war with everybody all the time.

I think we can win. Getting the GL will really help this as it gives us time to set up our economy before we need to truly compete.

Also if the pillaging strategy is effective then the gpt doubling will help the AI only slightly. You need gpt to trade, which is harder with few roads. The other continent(s) will be the biggest danger there as we won't be able to get over to them easily with our armies.

I will see what I can come up with if we build the "wonder town" in terms of a dot map. It will probably be similar to yours. TMcC, but I would like to do some counting of squares. I would like to cover most squares when we are size 12 to maximize our land usage.

[Edit: How about something like this? The average is pretty close to 12 squares per town]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_Dotmap3.jpg

Come on T_McC, think positive :) As smart as you & Greebley are, we can pull this off.

If this was a PTW game I would feel great about the start. I've won on alot worse, and that was without the benefit of two smart players like you & Greebley. I'm not really sure yet how the FP & other bugs will affect us, you guys are light years ahead of me on understanding those issues.

In about 1/2 of my AW games (the Rome game with Greebley included) we built the GL from scratch, so it can be done. That's the key wonder IMHO. Sun Tzu is #2 on my list for AW.

My main concerns the "FP bug" & "GPT bug", the AI's new inclination to bombard armies mote than in PTW while they are pillaging, and the fear that we may get pillaged ourselves more than in PTW. I'm counting on you two to develop a strategy for the GPT & FP bugs. ;)

This will be fun, I have not lost an AWM PTW in a long time, and I've learned alot from the Rome game and you two already. Heck, we are going to win the Rome game and did not have iron for the longest time. I like our chances....ugh unless we find ourselves with no iron & no horses. Winning without those 2 resources would be a challenge indeed.

I am half way through a similar game I set up to get my 1st taste of AW. At monarch the other civs research really slow. Once we get about 9 cities set up I think we will be fine. I built the GL and SZ from scratch. It is dicey when you draw a line in the sand but the walls really helped. The FP bug worried me so I kept jumping my palace with leaders, to be better centered, until I could build an the palace far enough away. After I got it to where I wanted it I built an FP 8 squares away back in my core and it works fine now.
The pillaging with 3 armies utterly destroys the opposing civ infrastructure and then you only get trickles.
I think if we can get 4-5 defensive units with pults to the western cities and make a stand there we'll make it. While the front lines holds them in check we can be busily building our infra up behind us, including the GL and SZ. Timing was tough though. I don't think they even researched lit while at war.
The GPT bug never affected me becase I was ahead in research all through the ancient and made only one trade with one civ before declaring. In retrospect I think I should have made a GPT deal and broke it when I met the last civ because you never get on good terms anyway.
I gotta tell you, this AW is a hoot after the initial onslaught.

Barbslinger,
If tomorrow there is still no word from Gingerbread man, and you have free time, then post an "I got it" and start playing (assuming still no word from gingerbread man). Gingerbread man would then play after you.

In other words, if we don't hear from Gingerbread man tonight, then whoever posts the "I got it" first should play first.

Note that "official" AW rules, don't permit any per turn trades (gpt, luxes, etc). So though it is a good idea, I did specifically disallow it when I posted the rules above.

Does anyone have opinions on my dot map? I like it, but that may be because you all haven't yet pointed out all the flaws :lol:

If we do go with this dot map, the first town I would settle would be the "wonder" city which is on the incense hill 4 squares SW of the capitol. I guess if I was choosing, I would build the northern city near the fish next, as it is within 3 of both the wonder city and the capitol, and then perhaps the front line cities and back-fill.

Greebley,

Your map & T_McC's are both good. I always build a little tighter (dense) in AW (see my first map) but I'm up for a wider build. A very aggressive settle would be blue, red, black, black. Less aggresive would be to build blue, red, green, then back settle. There are lots of options with this start. If we can settle & hold the line created by the black cities (big if), we would have a great start. Holding it will not be easy. May need 3 javelins per city to hold until we get walls since there is no "hill bonus". Alot depends on why we have seen no AI scouts. Do Aztecs hold a choke point to the north?

This wider build may present challenges. If the Aztecs make peace, we could quickly find ourselves at war with aztecs + two or other civs. We may have to face up to 6 archers on a single turn (probably not, but maybe - 3 civs x 2 archers per stack). More likely we face two archers 1 turn, then 2 more the next turn with no time to heal.

OTOH, if the Aztecs hold a choke point up north, it'll be just us & them for a while. 30 turns & no war is record for me. usually I'm at war by turn 10.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Greebley_dot_map.JPG

Alright, you convinced me. We're going to win. :sheep:

WTH? ... :hmm:

Now for another dotmap.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_DotMap4.JPG

The blue dots are where Greebley and I agree. Where we disagree, the red dots are Greebley's, and the yellow squares are mine. We need only be concerned with the two different placements that are circled. Now I'm going to tell you why my placements are so much better. :rolleyes:

In the north, the yellow square is not on a BG, and in conjunction with the western blue dot closes that front. An enemy cannot pass those cities without spending at least one turn adjacent (getting bombarded) to one of them. The yellow square is also within three squares of the westen blue dot, not requiring a third city to form a common defense front. The yellow square also allows all those hills to be behind the front. I would be surprised if the AI could figure out to run beyond the city to get on high ground before attacking. (Any unit that could move onto the hill behind the yellow square has to have an opportunity to first attack the city from flat ground. With the red dot, I fear we would see enemy forces beeline for the hill before attacking.)

In the south, the red dot and the yellow square are both within three squares of the blue Wonder city. However, the yellow square is also within three squares of the capital. From the capital, we can go directly to the blue Wonder in 2 turns, but the yellow square allows a one-turn "shuffle" of a unit to blue Wonder. (i.e. build spear in capital, move to south yellow square; wake existing spear in yellow square, move to blue wonder. Net effect is to move a newly-built spear from the capital to blue wonder.) Yellow square does bugger up some of the southeast cities, but I do think this it has important advantages over the red dot.

So I feel the settling order should be north yellow square, blue Wonder, western blue dot.

hmmm, ya.

I see your points on both the circled choices and you have convinced me, especially on the lower one. The building on the BG is always interesting. If I remember correctly, it is only a difference when under size 6? When you hit size 7 the extra shield re-appears (so bg you have 2 shields, non-bg you have 1 shield in the central square) - or did I just imagine I saw this?

The north red dot does give us an "extra town" farther out, but maybe it sticks out to far.

I like the yellow square idea but the western most blue should come back 1 SE to be on coast and the SW ble 1 S still on the coast. I also agree with the settling order. Whoever made the jav thrower/settler spreadsheet, nice job. Looks great until 1st city gets set up to make javs. After wonder city gets cooking with barracks/walls it should be straight military supplier to the front until we get within about 5-10 turns of writing, depending on SPT in WonderCity and then prebuild for GL.
What are the rules for declaring. From what I read in the prior posts it is when a visual is made. What if they are on F4 but you haven't seen them yet? I would like to declare when they come calling. Our civ just wants to be left alone to build a war machine for whomever comes calling. Scouting around looking for a fight could be a disaster. They will all find us soon enough. Hopefully, Aztecs will provide a buffer until our General Sherman heads out to pillage and finds the rest. Man I hope the Romans are somewhere else. Legions would be tough this early.

List of names for Towns in honor of William Tecumseh Sherman

Capital - Tecumseh ( Also Indian sounding)
LSU - His college - Wonder City/GL
Sherman
Savannah
Lancaster - Shermans birth city
West point - SZ city
Ft Sumter
Bull Run - The front - N yellow dot. Hopefully history won't repeat.
Shiloh
Chattanooga
Raleigh
Lincoln
Paducah
Missionary Ridge
Resaca
Augusta

Cities/ Camps when we march
Griswoldville
Macon
Briar Creek
Buck Head Creek
Waynesborough
Fort McAllister

Army names -

McDowells 1st Div
Shermans 5th Div
Army of the Cumberland

I work 1pm-11:30pm and I just woke up here. I'll play it after work tonight. If there is no real arguments against it, I will be going blue wonder city then yellow square. Also, I'll be changing the Capitals name to Tecumseh. Hail General Sherman!

Sounds good Barbslinger (on order of builds, renaming, and that you are playing).

Gingerbread Man,
Check in when you get back, even if Barbslinger hasn't finished so we know you can take the save.

TMcC,
If you want to play tomorrow and we haven't hearf from Gingerbread man, then go ahead [Edit: Do post an "I got it so he knows you are playing]. If we do hear from him, then you will be after him. Otherwise we will just skip him this first round, and we will just re-insert him when he shows up.

2550 BC inherited turn

Goals – Hopefully get 2 cities down. LSU (Wonder city) and Bull Run (the front)
Workers – to build our fledgling empire.
More javs – No reason, except the impending wars.
Stay out of impending wars until 1st sighting.
Changed capitals name to Tecumseh to honor our games namesake.
Tecumseh is due to grow to 7 next turn so it is not on cycle I saw in a previous post. Will try to make it back. BW in 14. Will try to MM to speed it along.
MM’ed to get BW in 5 with no loss. Sci to 50%, settler in. Worker is standing on an unimproved grass and looking at spreadsheet I’m thinking a mine goes there.

Hit enter –
2510 – turn 1
Adjust slider for pop 7. BW in 4, Settler in 2. -1gpt. Worker road for gold prior to mine. We have plenty of shields. Jav to hill worker to road between hills. Moving scouts home for MP and I don’t really want to run into anyone. Fingers crossed.

IBT – nada

2470 – turn 2
BW in 3, Settler in 1. -1gpt. Roading towards front.

IBT – Settler > Jav

2430 – turn 3
Settler towards LSU founding in 3. Worker starts mine. Reshuffle tiles/ sliders for pop 5. BW in 1, Jav in 4. Growth in 4. Mine in 4. -1gpt. I’m justifying the 4 turn jav because we will be self researching the whole game just about, except for prewar trades. Also the mine will be finised then and I think I can get on the 6 turn settler jav cycle.

2390 – turn 4
Road complete to hook up LSU when founded. Heading to front.

IBT – BW come in. Wheel for horsies next.

2350 – turn 5
Wheel in 25 at +1gpt. Good thing because we were broke after that turn.

2310 – turn 6
LSU, future home of the Great Library is founded. GPT jumps to +7 but I haven’t looked at Mm or sliders yet. Set to barracks in 20. Wheel in 8 at +1

IBT – Tecumseh – Jav > Settler

2270 – turn 7
Tecumseh settler in 3 grow in 4. MM’ing after 2 turns. Food is +3 while using incense hill, +4 on MG. 3+3+4 Slider to 10% for the new dude in town. Need MP to be able to increase science spending. Wheel is 7. 0gpt. Mine is finished, moving worker to chop for barracks. Road to have Bull Run hooked up is complete to edge of yellow square. He goes back to mine BG at LSU on road. Warrior makes it back to LSU.

2230 – turn 8
Started chop due in 3. Renamed 2 scouting warriors Almost saw Aztecs and Atlanta Bound.

2190 – turn 9
Fortified jav where Bull Run will be.

IBT – Tecumseh – Settler > Jav

2150 – turn 10
Settler heads to Bull Run location (Yellow square). He’s idling under the worker chop. I reset Tecumseh for jav in 4 – grow in 4 because I still can’t figure out how to get it to 3-3. Then after looking at speadsheet I printed out it hit me that the sheet says IC irrigated cow is 4f 2s when it is actually 4f 1s.

Hopefully we can get 5-6 cities up before the war starts so our GA will be fruitful. 3:28 here so I’m posting now.
2150 SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Shermans_War,_2150_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman_2150.jpg

Barbslinger

Sorry about mistake boo-boo on the spreasheet! I just built it, and apparently laid an egg on the IC tile. I'll fix it tonight.

Is the barracks build in LSU a temple pre-build? Depending on how quickly we can get CB and establish cities to the west of LSU, we may not need barracks LSU. If it's a wonder building site we will want a temple for happiness & border expansion. Maybe walls for protection depending on how quickly the settlements to the east can be done. But we won't be building alot of military there. Consider Temple + walls in this city unless it's going to come under attack, in which case a barracks will be needed.

Originally posted by handy900
Barb,Edit to Slinger please. I laughed when I read this. Never realzed the short version cold be that!

Sorry about mistake boo-boo on the spreasheet! I just built it, and apparently laid an egg on the IC tile. I'll fix it tonight.

Well we'll fix it. right now the 7 turn works fine with the incense hill to keep science jacked.

Looks like our empire is growing nicely. Still no Aztecs? It is odd that they have sent noone south at all. I wonder if we could get away with a few 4 turn settlers. If we get our towns down early we would have more power when they do show up. I guess it would depend how quickly they could send their troops.

We may want a spear in our city as well, so the more expensive Jav thrower isn't the main defender.

TMcC, it is looking like you are up next as Gingerbread man is still MIA. Feel free to post your I got it. If/When Gingerbread man does show up, he can be placed back into the roster and take his turn at the normal time (i.e. he will go after Handy900)

Alright, I got it. I'll either play tonight or tomorrow morning, depends how the spirit moves me.

I disagree with Handy on the build order in LSU. We will be expanding the borders by settlement, so a temple will only be useful for happiness, and this won't be a concern until LSU outgrows our capital. I feel we also need a second military-producing city, as the Aztecs (or somebody else) will eventually figure out we're alive. It's too early to pre-build for the G.Lib, and having a second good shield military city will allow us much greater operational flexibility to build settlers out of the capital. (The southern city of the two-city front will be a bit corrupt in Despotism, so may not be able to build its own troops quickly enough.) If the Aztecs come quickly, we'll need about 8 more military units for our cities. If they leave us alone, we might have 8-10 cities before they start attacking. Either way, I'll build barracks in LSU first, leaving the walls as a later, shorter build. I might even try to sneak a granary in, as LSU doesn't have any bonus food, and bigger is definitely better for building wonders. I'll only try that if we can establish the two-city front in peace.

In the capital, I plan to go spear-spear-settler (timed for growth to 7). This will take either 7 or 8 turns, depending on where the forest chop goes. I think it is possible to MM for this, but worst-case scenario we spend 1 turn at size 7 before spitting out the settler. I'd like to keep the capital at size 5 or greater, to retain the option of having 10 spt when we need it. I hope by the end of my turn to have the two-city front founded, and be well on the way to 2 spears/1 javelin + walls in each.

I'll also try to push the workers to jump-start the walls in each new city with a forest chop. Then the workers will double back to improve the area around LSU.

After The Wheel completes, I figure to head for Alphabet --> Math. I think catapults are more valuable to us than swords, particularly because our 30 shield attack unit of choice will usually be our UU.

Oh, and I'll try not to run out of money. And before anyone asks, I'd start the G.Lib pre-build soon after we start researching Writing, provided our research time for Writing is < 20 turns. [Figure we'll need ~40 turns to get 400 shields, (LSU starts at size 5) and Lit should be 1/3 to 1/2 more expensive than Writing.] Just a guesstimate, it all depends on the situation on the ground.

Sounds good. We might want to build units in our wonder city and just spam settlers and workers in the capitol once we get it up and running (and before we start the wonder). We don't even need a granary as we can add workers to make it grow. Since our shortage is more shields than food, this is probably a good way to go.

Also, you mention a turn at size 7. Does this empty the granary? If so you might as well insert a worker in there as it will be equivalent to the food lost when you go to size 7.

I was thinking temple in LSU mainly to increase the # of happy citizens. More citizens to work tiles without using the lux slider. I didn't want to have to turn the lux slider up for 1 city only. Temple just seemed more useful to me than barracks, but it's not a big deal. Again, not a big deal, but I'd build walls first to avoid the possibility of having to switch the barracks to walls in an emergency, resulting in lost shields.

Greebley, I agree it's a good idea to add workers to LSU if we need to in order to boost production.

The chop will go to barracks in LSU. I think that the temple, worker addition and other concerns for LSU will be completely dependent on when we get 1st contact. Up to that point I would think barracks and military and maybe a pop rushed temple if pop growth gets out of control. The mountainous area leads me to believe it will grow slow. We WILL need military, no doubt about that. The townfolk knows that General Sherman is a war monger and has a hair trigger temper, completely hates any other races existence and would like to see some armament in town in case Sherman goes off.

Originally posted by Greebley

Also, you mention a turn at size 7. Does this empty the granary? If so you might as well insert a worker in there as it will be equivalent to the food lost when you go to size 7.

The food box empties on the transition from size 6 to 7. This is why one should try to have the settler complete on the turn the city grows to 7. I think this results in a half-full box at size 5, but I have no idea how that actually works. I'll see what happens in this game.

@Handy - We are already using the lux slider for one city (the capital). We shouldn't have to raise the lux tax just for LSU until it is larger than Tecumseh (likely size 6). If war comes soon (or we farm some barbs) and we have a nice collection of ... erm ... "involuntary" labor, we can certainly build a temple before a granary and rely on worker merges for growth. May be worth slipping temples into both Tecumseh and LSU when time allows, as we do need to conserve cash.

I also agree with Bar ... er ... Slinger that LSU is shield rich and food poor. It will have 7-turn growth until size 6 in despotism (food surplus=3, hence thoughts of granary). After we switch gov'ts we will have to irrigate over some mined grassland to maximize the number of hills that can be worked.

How does AI determine where the chop goes to? I just noticed that the chop is halfway between both cities.

Heh, did you just read the subject and think something bad happened? Got ya! :p

GR2 - Sherman's War

Well, we only have two cities and a third will be founded on the next two turns. Once an Aztec unit is sighted we are at war. Dotmaps are agreed upon, so little thought to where the next 3 or 4 settlers will go.

2150 BC (0)
Do a little MM, set Tecumseh to 10 spt, growth in 4, spear. Leave LSU on barracks. Can't say where the forest chop will go. Wheel due in 5 at break-even, we have 2 gold.

2110 BC (1)
Chop went to Tecumseh. Tecumseh: spear --> spear. Send spear to future site of fourth city. Have to dial science down to not go broke. Both workers move to chop forest for Bull Run (yet to be founded).

2070 BC (2)
Bull Run founded, starts walls. Both workers set to chopping. Adjust sliders, Wheel in 3, +1 gpt.

2030 BC (3)
Tecumseh: spear --> settler. Spear moves to future 4th city site. Aztecs found city that will eventually lock borders with our 4th city.

1990 BC (4)
Chop completes. Workers move to road toward 4th city.

1950 BC (5)
Discover Wheel. Research to Alphabet in 8 at -1 gpt (we have 13 gold). Aztecs start Pyramids. Good, now we can capture them instead of wasting all those shields building them. Spear covers workers building road. We have horses behind Tecumseh. :cool:

1910 BC (6)
Nothing.

1870 BC (7)
Tecumseh: Settler --> Spear. Growth to size 7 then back to 5 results in half-full food box. I really can't say how the various checks are applied to arrive at that result, but we'll take it. Keep Tecumseh at 10 shields to build another spear. Bull Run: Walls --> Barracks. Move Javelin from Bull Run to cover settler.

1830 BC (8)
Nothing.

1790 BC (9)
Tecumseh: Spear --> Spear. Will be sent to Bull Run. Settler in place to found 4th city.

1750 BC (10)
Found Shiloh. Shiloh starts on Walls.

Still haven't seen an Aztec unit. :confused:

Notes for next leader: (Greebley)

After the current spear build completes, we can have two spears and a javelin in each front-line city. Shiloh already has its full complement, as I expect that to be the first battle ground.

The conscript warrior is moving back to be the second garrison at LSU. We will complete the barracks next turn, and then if walls are necessary they could be a 1-pop whip.

One thought for the next worker project is to complete a road between Shiloh and LSU.

We should try to keep Tecumseh at least size 5 at all times, to retain the ability to make 10 spt there.

We are 5 units under our support limit.

Our little corner of the world:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1750BC.JPG

and the save:

Sherman in 1750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1750_BC.zip)

That forest next to Shiloh will have to go somehow. Even sacrificing, what is it 3 to chop, may be needed. Walls immediately too, somehow. Tall order but it will be close. they won't come knocking for a little bit yet because they are fortified with probably a spear, so the chop would be OK if you can get 3 there ASAP. We may get some horsies to raze it so they have a longer walk home if we don't kill them. My fingers are crossed for getting a spear Army when war starts to go and shatter their production destroying mines all over the place. Muhahaha!:soldier:
If we could send 3 horsies with an Army we can raze cities too. (more sinister laughter)
Is first ring city settling up now for less corruption and military?

After the workers finish their mining (next turn) they can be sent to that forest, taking the newly-produced spear from Tecumseh with them. The chop will only take two turns if both workers are used, and we can cover them with two spears for that time. Then they can go back to the core, and allow the two spears to go back to the two front-line cities.

Spear armies are nice, but Javelin armies can be really destructive. Pillage and Capture! Also fits with the theme, as Sherman had many slaves following his army.

Originally posted by T_McC
Javelin armies can be really destructive. Pillage and Capture! Also fits with the theme, as Sherman had many slaves following his army.

How does that work:confused: Would you have to raze the city? So take 3 javs along, make a circuit of pillaging and then return slaves home? So after razing we fortify to heal. This sounds like more fun than my test game. Used Spears there, damn, hope I have a save from back then, wanna try that!

The way it works is that since the army would be essentially a knight on offense, you pillage a little, and wail on any stray units you happen across. One out of three tries, that unit has to come along for the ride. Since armies get free pillaging, I don't think that shepherding the slaves around would really slow the army down.

I am working with a large, untested assumption: That if a Javelin thrower is the unit showing when the army is victorious, it retains the ability to enslave.

This does sound kind of fun, as in addition to ruining the enemy production, the enemy units almost have to run away from the army for fear of getting captured.

Originally posted by T_McC
@Handy - We are already using the lux slider for one city (the capital). We shouldn't have to raise the lux tax just for LSU until it is larger than Tecumseh (likely size 6). If war comes soon (or we farm some barbs) and we have a nice collection of ... erm ... "involuntary" labor, we can certainly build a temple before a granary and rely on worker merges for growth. May be worth slipping temples into both Tecumseh and LSU when time allows, as we do need to conserve cash.

Good points. :)

Way to go T_McC :goodjob:

Our little empire looks good. Wonderful news about the horses.

Pillage & capture sounds like a lot of fun. I decided to play a solo game as Mayans to get the feel of C3C and the slave feature is really handy!

Looking good :) I got it and should be able to play tonight.

I am guessing we somehow gained Aztec contact. You only get told about builds starting if you have contact as far as I know. Perhaps we got contact with our close towns?

I will definitely check on my preturn. If anyone has access to the save to see, then feel free. I am at work and can't check myself. My guess though is that I will get to play the first war turns.

We went a whole rotation without contact. Pretty amazing. I hope it doesn't mean that the AI ignored our land due to a nearly complete lack of resources :lol: or :cry:

Is contact when they knock on your door or do you have to knock on theirs if they come up on diplo screen? When I played I was prepared to call war if I got a visual of a unit. I never checked the F4 figureing they would knock when they saw me. However, I pulled up my save and hit F4 and there was Monte. What is exact rule. I'm liking the visual rule and never hit F4 until you run into them, have a sighting or they pop up to say hi. After that the same goes for other Civs. This is however my 1st AW and I am ignorant to the exact definition.

Well ...

In regards to contact, I think the Aztecs showed up on F4 by the end of Handy's turn. (The save should still be there, so if anyone cared we could check.) When it got around to my turn I was also going to wait to see a unit, or for Monty to come to us. I don't think this is traditionally the way AW is run, but no big deal. We're just playing a different, combination variant: Tactless AW. :)

I would be perfectly comfortable if Greebley decides to declare on the Aztecs on his first interturn. I would also be equally comfortable if he wanted to wait until he could "see the whites of their eyes."

I like that visual.

"Hey, your new around here aren't you?" Sherman sneers.

"Why yes, pleased to meet you", Monte says politely.

As the spears entered Monte's flesh Sherman was heard in a blood curdling scream, "DIE, Injun, DIE!"

Vs

Emmisary to Emissary, glad to meet you, my boss said to tell your boss that we're at war, come on over if you want some.

Preturn: War declared on Aztecs. We did have contact. Now things get fun.

Decide to go +1 food, +2 shields to get shiloh's walls up.


IBT: No movement yet.
LSU: Barracks->Spearman
Tecumseh:Spear->Worker

1725 BC (1): Raise lux to 10%

IBT:
Tecumseh: Worker->Javalin thrower

1700 BC (2): Workers are mining bonus grasslands near our wonder city. lower lux to 0

IBT: Aztec Warrior (but not a jaguar warrior - hut?) is seen.

1675 BC(3): Lower science to 60. Move a jav so both are in the town nearest the warior.

Science: Alphabet->Mathematics in 15 at 0 gpt (80% sci).

IBT: Aztec archer seen.

1650 BC (4): Jav thrower attacks warrior and wins. No worker, but our Golden Age starts. Forgot about that little detail. Not that we could/would want to put it off. Lux back to 10% Still at 0 gpt, but math is in 11 now.

Note that during our GA, it is equivalent to mine regular grassland as bonus grassland as both give 2 shields. I will want to build mines on the normal grasslands so we don't require the forests to be above 10 shields.. We can get full shields without needing the forest.

MM for the GA - Math in 10

IBT: Archer fortifies outside our territory

Tecumseh: Jav thrower->Worker
LSU: Spearman->Walls

I625 BC(5):
IBT: Warrior seen near other town. It too is a regular warrior??? Hmm, they need warrior code for Jaguar warriors, but start with it. A conquests bug? Am I missing something obvious?
Tecumseh: Worker->Settler

1600 BC(6): New worker starts work near capitol. In 4 turns we will get a culture expansion and pop the hut. I change the settler to worker to try to get clever and not be building (or have) a settler when this occurs. That way it could be a settler (otherwise not).

IBT: Archer advances into the forest.
Tecumseh:Worker->Walls

1575 BC(7): Decide the odds are good enough to attack the reg archer with a vet jav. I almost lose (redlined jav).

IBT:
LSU: Walls->Jav thrower

1550 BC(8): Explore getting Math in 3 instead of 4 but it costs too much to do.

IBT:
Tecumseh: Walls->Spear
Bull Run: Barracks->Spear
Shiloh: Walls->Barracks

1525 (9): Send Spear in LSU toward Tecuseh in case we get barbs from the hut.

IBT: Another Aztec warrior shows up.
Hut gives us a warrior.

1500 BC (10): Switch Tecumseh to a settler in 2

Well I didn't build new towns, but got our defenses up and walls. Handy, I would seriously consider having Tecsumah building a settler every 3-4 turns and let LSU and Bull Run build military. With only one anemic enemy, I think more units is not the way to go. It has been long enough for the units to show up. If we get several more towns up during our golden age it will really help things along I think.

My recommendation is to build a warrior, settler pair every 4 turns. If the Aztecs do show up with troops (possible, but probably not a whole lot), then behind walls I think we have plenty of troops to make sure we don't lose a town and will have time to switch back to military. We can get 6 settlers by 950 BC this way. If we are fighting one monarch level AI who has already been in a long war, we don't need to play the "normal" AW type game and get strong.

Now that the horses are within our radius, you will probably want to assign a worker to connect.
I moved two workers onto an incense hill. The plan was to road it to get more gold/research when we need it. Probably I should have gone for the horses first, but I would still road that hill first as to not waste worker turns. It won't take long with us being industrious, and we have plenty of workers.

Workers can also be added to LSU or other towns if needed.

On contact, we can have two choices:

1) As soon as you know they are on F4, you must declare war (i.e as soon as possible that you know about) - but you are allowed to trade first.
2) Tactless. You don't have to contact right away them, but NO trades of any kind allowed ever. They are totally beneath us and are not worth even talking to.
3) Jihad (my name for it)
a) We never try to make contact and never trade. They are totally beneath us If they contact you, declare war right away (you are actually killing their diplomats). Otherwise, you can declare war by attacking a unit.
b) All foreigners are put to the sword - all towns razed, all foreign workers are disbanded/killed.
c) This variant is better if you don't look at F4 or diplomacy, ever.

I made no trade on my turn (I did declare war, but we could still do 3 if ppl wanted). Do ppl want to vote?

Anything else and our game will be "easier" than normal. Given our start, I don't think we need that leg up.

Given our start, I bet we could win with 3 which is probably the hardest of the variants and ppl wanted a challenge.

Post your thoughts on this. I was sort of thinking of 1), but have always wanted to try 3) so I would love to try it if others liked the idea as well.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1500_BC.zip)

No picture since not much has changed.

Handy, you are up.

Also, when you post the name, edit it so it starts with GR2_ (use caps). That way you can sort the upload list alphabetically and find it.

------

Roster:
Greebley (JUST PLAYED)
Handy900 (UP)
Gingerbread man (MIA)
BarbSlinger (ON DECK)
TMcC

Originally posted by T_McC
Well ...

...In regards to contact, I think the Aztecs showed up on F4 by the end of Handy's turn...

I checked and you are correct, they were on F4 at the end of my turns. :( I seldom check F4 in a AW games except later to see how I compare in techs.

Official GOT IT.

Too late to play tonight. I'll play Friday night, so you all have 24 hours to tell me what to do :)

Greebley, I agree about kicking settlers out of the capital unless we see more attacks than expected.

AW Variant 3 is okay with me, but so are 1 & 2. No strong preference, so if others have strong inclinations I'll go along with whatever.

Sorry about missing the F4, I seldom check F4. I just declare war when I spot a unit, or they contact me.

I like the idea of:

1. If they show up in your territory, patiently wait until they get within striking distance, check trades cash but no gpt, declare war, kill them.
2. If they show up knocking, trade that turn for tech, cash but no gpt and then declare.
3. If they show up on diplo while checking status on current opponent, trade if possible, declare.

They are beneath us and we'll get the best deal out of them before declaring.

Originally posted by Greebley


On contact, we can have two(?) choices:

1) As soon as you know they are on F4, you must declare war (i.e as soon as possible that you know about) - but you are allowed to trade first.
2) Tactless. You don't have to contact right away them, but NO trades of any kind allowed ever. They are totally beneath us and are not worth even talking to.
3) Jihad (my name for it)
a) We never try to make contact and never trade. They are totally beneath us If they contact you, declare war right away (you are actually killing their diplomats). Otherwise, you can declare war by attacking a unit.
b) All foreigners are put to the sword - all towns razed, all foreign workers are disbanded/killed.
c) This variant is better if you don't look at F4 or diplomacy, ever.

Given our start, I bet we could win with 3 which is probably the hardest of the variants and ppl wanted a challenge.


I am fine with (1) or (2), but if we choose (3) we will render our UU pointless. If we can't keep slaves, I will never build a Javelin instead of a Horse or Sword. Additionally, we wouldn't be able to capture wonders. If I had to choose, I'd say (2) since that is how we have started. (And (2) and (3) are the same except (2) allows us to benefit from capturing cities/slaves.)

I am rather suprised that the Aztecs didn't try to contact us for more than 20 turns. Maybe we're just not that interesting.

Originally posted by T_McC

I am rather suprised that the Aztecs didn't try to contact us for more than 20 turns. Maybe we're just not that interesting.

It's not that we are not interesting. It's that Sherman is known to take slaves.

Also. I'm down with 2. No trades. They're knowledge is probably faulty and not correctly researched. They are no different than barbarians. You can put sugar on a turd but that does not make it a tootsie roll.

Good point TMcC,
This is not the game to try 3. I forgot about are UU. We already have the starve to 1 rule, so we will keep that and allow slaves. Note that 1) is considered "normal" AW rules as far as I am aware.

[Edit: I kind of like 2 as well. I think that will be my vote for now]

Need to sleep now so will think some more on it and post if I have any thoughts.

Originally posted by handy900
Official GOT IT.

Too late to play tonight. I'll play Friday night, so you all have 24 hours to tell me what to do :)



Well, since you asked ... :rolleyes: (You know, I think I use more ellipses than anyone else in this entire forum)

I also concur that the capital should build settlers. We need another city to stop paying unit support costs, and during the balance of our GA we should be able to put down three more cities. [The capital can grow two sizes in 4 turns, and I think we can do a warrior/settler combo in 4 as well.]

I think the next city should be built on the lakeside grass tile S of Tecumseh. After that, maybe a city SW of LSU, so we can claim all 21 tiles for LSU.

One could try to get a second Javelin to Bull Run so we can attack both Aztec warriors next turn.

When we do get a spare Jav, it may be profitable to explore our S a little, looking for barb camps. ($$$ + slaves)

I think Iron Working should be the next research, so we can see if we (or the Aztecs) have any. After that tech you can decide whether we should beeline to Lit. I would probably hold off until we can switch the capital from settlers back to military, so we can start the pre-build in LSU. Use your best judgement.

I think by the end of your turns (more likely the end of Slinger's turns), we may be able to go on offense against the Aztecs. If you feel this is a correct assessment based on the units Monty throws at you, then I guess HBR is the tech choice after IW.

Originally posted by T_McC
... I am rather suprised that the Aztecs didn't try to contact us for more than 20 turns. Maybe we're just not that interesting.

That's funny!! :lol: :rotfl:
Thanks for the Friday morning laugh.

T_McC,

I agree with the Iron, we need to know where it is asap.

We will definitely need horses for both defense as well as offense. Their ability to kill AI units wounded from cats & then retreat back to a walled city is key. We can attack AI stacks first with javs to try & get slaves, but the last attack should be a horse, if leaving a jav exposed makes him open for a counter attack.

Exploring to the south is also a good idea. I guess I did not realize javs could enslave barbs. That is a nice bonus feature on top of the gold you get from a barb camp. If there are barbs down there, we could delay our settle in that area for a while and use it as a "barb farm" for gold + workers (unless you all think "barb farms" are too much of an exploit).

Ok, so lets try varient 2.

No trades with anyone.

Only if they contact directly you do you need to declare war.

If we see units of other civs, it is in the spirit of the game to attack them to declare war.

Since I did it, if you feel like dialing them up to specifically declare war, then this is allowed.

If anyone doesn't like these rules then speak up. I don't want to have rules that the players aren't happy with.

I will change the first post.

I only have one change to suggest to Greebley's post.

Rather than just barbarically attacking an enemy unit to initiate war, we must remember we are gentlemen.

(Barb, you are a guy, right?) :p

Upon sighting an enemy unit, you are to respectfully approach him and request to see his commanding officer. At which point you are to remove the glove from your right hand, and "demand satisfaction". You may then feel free to kill at will.

(Yeah, I know you just challenged someone to a duel, but it seems to fit the spirit/timeframe of the variant.)

GR2 Pre Turn (1500 BC)

Will go with Greebley’s idea to build a warrior and settler pair every 4 turns.

City build order:
1. Lakeside grass tile S of Tecumseh
2. SW of LSU (on the ocean), so we can claim all 21 tiles for LSU
To do list:
1. Need to assign worker to connect horses when they become available
2. Try to get a second Javelin to Bull Run so we can attack both Aztec warriors next turn
3. Explore S looking for barb camps.
4. Begin researching Iron Working (next player after that HBR or Lit)
5. Do not make any trades (this will tempt me severely if I am offered IW).
6. If I see someone, declare war

Before I hit enter
Move a Javelin to bull run so we’ll have 2 there to attack the Aztecs next turn.

Turn 1 – 1475 BC
Treasury is low
2 regular Aztec warriors arrive at Bull Run.
Two javelins attack & win. No slaves.
Position spear between bull Run & Shiloh so he can reach either city.
Begin road on the incense hill
Building roads

Turn 2 1450 BC
We get math. Set to IW (due in 9). Earning 1 GPT and 4 in the bank.
Tecumseh - settler - warrior
Set queue to build a warrior + settler combo every 4 turns.
LSU – javelin – javelin (4 turns)
Switch Bull Run to catapult production (every 3 turns)
Shiloh & Bull run both have 2 spears and 2 swords. There is an extra spear between them.

Turn 3 1425 BC
Tecumseh – warrior – settler
Bull Run – cat – cat
Move workers towards horses.
Shiloh – walls – cat (due in 2)
Found Sherman

Turn 4 1400 BC
Move workers
American scout comes into view near Shiloh. Abe will trade IW + CB + 40 gold for math, but I don’t do it . I must tell you, it was not easy to turn him down. I read the forum twice to make sure it said no trades. In the sprit of tactless war I’ll hold off the war declaration 1 turn & then try to enslave the scout next turn.

Turn 5 1375 BC
Scout moves out of view to the N, I dial up Abe on F4 & declare war.

Turn 6 – 1350 BC
We have horses.
Tecumseh – settler – warrior
LSU – javelin – chariot
Javelin heads south to explore
Send workers to build a road to connect Sherman with LSU

Turn 7 1325 BC
Tecumseh – warrior – settler
Bull run – cat – cat
Worker shuffle

Turn 8 1300 BC
LSU – chariot – chariot
IW due in 1 turn – turn slider down to pick up 15 gold

Turn 9 1275 BC
We get IW. We can get HBR in 6 or Writing in 9 & make 0 GPT. I set it to HBR in 5 (running deficit of –5 GPT. We have 41 in the bank.
We have Iron SE of Bull Run [dance]
Settler & spear arrive at blue dot SW of LSU
Javelin explores & sees some IRON to the South of LSU Thats 2 Iron sources. Let's hope the aztecs have none!

Turn 10 1250 BC
Tecumseh – settler – warrior
Two Aztec regular warriors appear N of Bull Run.
Send the cat over to Bull Run. Since that is where the IRON is, I expect they will attack there. We have 3 cats in Bull Run.
Found Savannah – there is only a spear in this city, but a javelin is nearby.
Spot goody hut south of the Iron way down south.
Send worker towards Iron near Bull Run
Send settler & warrior to the tile next to the horses (hope that’s okay).

EDIT **** You can get HBR in 3 turns losing 8 GPT (we have 36 in the bank) if you choose to. Probably a good idea. ****

I don’t usually zip files, so I hope I did this correctly. The name is GR2_1250_BC

SAVE 1250 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1250_BC.zip)

The picture is in the next post so you do not have to scroll back & forth to read the turns.

1250 BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1250bc.JPG

I think we should start the library prebuild and go for writing. Then if we have sufficient time, go for HBR othersise go for lit (we can compare lit time to build palace build times.

Since we are tactless, we want the great lib I think.

First off to clear up any confusion I'm a 41 yr old male application engineer in the defense industry working to tactical tomahawks, C-17's and other things. Beautiful lady at home, 1 son 15yrs old in Seattle (divorce) and a step son 20 at home going into Marines.

Anyway, I like the prebuild too. Sherman will be up to speed soon and if next cities are 1st ring they will help. LSU needs the GL. I think HBR can come 1st. this is monarch and the AI are researching slow. Our prebuild will get it. Once that comes in we can shut off research and cash rush infra. They are only send warriors? Pfft! Fingers crossed for leader army.

Am I up? If so, I got it and will play tonight after work. I will plant the settler and then get another settler 1st ring. Is the 4-turn settler/spear factory turn key or is there MMing to do? Also looking back at our dot map, I don't see any thing for the hill city 3 tiles from Tecumseh next to the mountain. It looks like it would make a great 1st ring spot though it would be squeezed by the city I'm putting down next. Two halfer's good isn't it. More military!

Ya barbslinger, you are up.

I didn't name the leader of our country Sherman, but I think you can rename armies? Though maybe the division names are better for those. Anyway, feel free to name SOMEONE sherman if you get a leader :D

What are we supposed to do with that piece of s**t land. I would hate to have to have to devote 3-5 units down there for MP but we do have to deny. I guess a harbor and wait for a few hundred centuries.

@Barbslinger - No offense intended in my previous post. (Hence the sticking-out-your-tongue smiley). It was just an easy joke to make given one possible way to shorten your username.

@Handy - I tried to look at the save, but I couldn't extract a file from your zip. If you are using Windows XP, the easiest way to zip a file is go into File Manager or My Computer, find the file and right-click on it. Then select Send To --> Compressed (zipped) Folder. Or maybe it's just me having the problem.

A few more general comments. We don't need to settle the second iron, since we can't trade it, and will go to war with anyone else who does try to claim it. It may be more useful to not settle it, to give the AI a strong reason to land settler pairs in our back lines, giving us an easy source of cheap labor.

The four-turn warrior/settler cycle just requires setting the capital to +5 food and at least 10 shields/turn. I think Slinger will get to go through that cycle once before the GA ends. (Although it looks like it will be settler then warrior, since he's picking up in the middle of Handy's sequence) The GA will end on Slinger's 4th turn. Since we are running a lux tax to maintain happiness, the end of the GA will likely cause some cities to riot. I find the easiest way to prevent any loss of production is to raise the lux tax 10% the turn before the GA ends (so before you end your turn 3), and then re-examine what would be the proper level of lux tax after the Advisor tells you the GA ended.

With regards to the hill city three tiles from Tecumseh, our tentative dot-maps had it one further E, on the forest. This was the only square that was both coastal, and on a river. It is not within one turn troop movement of the capital. I don't believe this is a real concern, as it could only be attacked by a sea-borne invasion, and we'll have more than enough advance warning to get troops there.

After that city, and the two dots N of Tecumseh (Handy has a settler on 1 spot already), I think you are on your own, as we didn't map any farther out.

On a somewhat related note: What is up with the Aztecs? If I'm reading Handy's turnlog correctly, in 10 turns they could only muster up two regular warriors? I know they have Warrior Code, so why aren't they building Jags? If they are fighting someone else, they must be getting hammered. Has anyone played a game with the Aztecs as an opponent and found something broken? (i.e., they don't know to build their UU).

Just an FYI.......
I was able to extract and load the save from Handy's zip file.

Well I started up the Aztecs and they can build both warriors and jaguar warriors. Was that true in PTW? Maybe they now value warriors more than Jags? After all the Jags cost 50% more for +1 move (15 instead of 10).

The zip worked fine for me as well.

We have a lot of units. Maybe would could go on the offensive and grab/raze the two towns we can see? A lux would be very nice. We could alway fall back if necessary. The AI boat attacks are not good enough to cause any real problems from sea if all cities have defense.

I think they were probably at war with the americans and will be easy. We could also wait for swords. It would be cool to drive the AI back and get some real lands.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_DotMap4a.jpg

I'm talking about here. River, hill, 1st ring. Sharing yes, but military producer with no corruption.

One thing to consider. If we minimize the number of cities at civ distance 4 or less, we get more shields in our wonder building city.

We could hold off on the close cities not yet built if we wanted to and fill them in if/when we get the great library. Not sure if this is a good idea, but I thought I would bring it up.

Other than this consideration, your site looks pretty decent to me Barbslinger.

Well I am off to bed and leave the empire in your capable hands :)

All right, one 3rd party program later and I can open the save.

I first note that no shields have been put into the settler in Tecumseh, so the warrior-settler cycle can start fresh. I also note that we have a lot of units and could probably think about an offensive operation against Texcoco, hoping it would grow to size 2 before we attack it. The Aztecs have 5 cities to our 6.

My biggest concern about the purple dot is how food-poor it will be. It could only grow by stealing two-food tiles from the neighboring cities. If it can't grow much, it won't be able to produce many troops.

The advantage I see to purple dot is that it allows us to move the eastern yellow square 1 NE and make better use of the peninsula. (We would not build the eastern blue dot.)

The disadvantages are: potentially higher corruption in the wonder city, purple dot could end up having to be really tiny, ...

I don't know. I can't see a compelling argument either way, so use your best judgement. I will say it might be best to save purple dot for the third city you found on your turns, after the two northern blue dots, as I think those may have better short-term prospects.

Other notes:
We have a strong military compared to the Aztecs and the Americans.

Apparently no one has built a temple yet, as Tecumseh is the #1 city on F11. We also have the largest population.

1250 BC inherited turn of Shermans war

Decided to slide the science to get HBR in 3 since a) We have horses, b) We will be self researching most of the game, and c) Who needs money in despotism.
Monte has CB, Writing and HBR.

Everything looks good. Hit enter.

IBT – Aztec oafs move into striking distance.
Bull Run – Cat > Cat

1225BC – turn 1
Changed Savannah over to barracks in 19.
Found Chattanooga where the settler was standing. Set to barracks in 20.
Sending almost saw Aztecs to hut in case we pop barbs and after for sentry duty.
Bull Run skirmish – Cats go 2/3. Javs kill both losing 1 hp on 1st and 2 slaves pop! Sherman likey! “Build a road on that there hill with the iron”, he commands.
Did some MM’ing to get Chat a mine and got gpt to –4 without messing up Tecumseh.
Switched LSU over to Jav. I just don’t like the limited movement of chariots. Horsemen are much better. Moved jav closer to goodie hut but waiting until HBR comes in before stepping on it. Hopefully get a tech! Sci-sli goes to 80%, still in 2.

IBT – Nothing.

1200BC – turn 2
Shuffle a cat to Shiloh. Workers finish a few items. Check M’ing. Looks like Shermans barracks due in 5 will come in next turn with chop completing. HBR is now in 1 at 70%, +9gpt.

IBT – Nada

HBR comes in. I set for CB for hut popping coming up.
LSU – Jav > Jav It was due in 2 but new pop must have been counted in.
Sherman – Barracks > Cat in 4 like Bull Run so I switch Bull Run to Horse
Tecumseh – Settler > Spear possibly changing after I look.

1175BC – turn 3
Worker action. Settler to N tip of our little corner of the world with no escort for now until MP is needed. Pop hut and get… 50g. Switch to Lit beeline and LSU to Palace in 28. LSU get 11 clean shields. If I can get LSU to 13 it is 31 turns to GL. Writing in 5 @ -7gpt. MM cat in 1 in Bull Run.

IBT - American scout runs in and out of fog.
Bull run – Cat > Cat



1150BC – turn 4
Send workers completing projects to incense hills to up the shields. Settler finds his spot. Looking at notes again of posts I see GA should end. Lux to 20%. But then I look at the people and I don’t think there will be any riots. Back to 10% and sci-sli to 90%. Writing in 4 @ -8gpt

IBT – GA is OVER.
Shiloh – Barracks > Jav

1125BC – turn 5
Founded Resaca and set to warrior. Palace now due in 36. Other builds changed. Changed Tecumseh to Sword in 2 and growth in 1. Sci @90 for writing in 5 @ -6gpt. Bull Run set to sword.

IBT – Scout comes in to view by Shiloh.

1100BC – turn 6
Little MM’ing to not waste shield overage on Bull Run sword due at the turn. Warrior set up for sentry duty. He will almost surely die if someone lands a spear and we should get someone more capable done there sometime, not yet. Once some one knocks him off we can raze the town.

IBT – Scout moves to look across the water at us.
Tecumseh – Sword > Settler
Chattanooga – Spear > For giggles the colossus placeholder for harbor or at worst a sword.

1075BC – turn 7
Working the city tiles to get settler in Tecumseh in 3 with growth at 3. Sharing the 2 shield tile in Sherman and Chat will do it. 11-11-8

IBT – Nothing. Scout looks at ocean. Mine on iron completes

1050BC – turn 8
Give LSU the iron mine with 3s. Palace in 24. Writing in 2. Workers doing what they do best.

IBT – Reg Aztec archer pops from Texcoco to look across the bay at us.
Sherman – Cat > Cat

1025BC – turn 9
Moved the jav that popped hut and was coming home to forest next to Shiloh to intercept archer. Added another from Shiloh, just in case. Dialed sci-sli to 30% +13gpt. Writing next turn. Dialed Tecumseh to get the settler in 1, growth in 1 at pop 7.

IBT – Archer moves into position. I wanted to wait until he got to edge of city because of wall bonus, but I have 2 workers and 2 slaves on the BG. Have to attack archer from forest. I like my odds though.

“I can do some Writin’” > “Next I’ll do book learnin’ “
Tecumseh – Settler > Sword. Need to fix MM.
Bull Run – Sword > Sword. Need to fix MM.

1000 – turn 10

Jav kills archer losing 1 hp and the other jav joins him. Moved a sword over to join Shiloh and possibly go to Texcoco for a town razing party.
Literature in 12 @ -7gpt with 61 in bank. I know it looks like we’ll run out of money but we can slide it back later at next leaders discretion. Settler at your discretion too.

Summary-
Well 2 warriors and an archer killed on my watch collecting 2 slaves. Not much war for AW. I’m sure next time around it will pick up.
Try to keep the double shield tiles for LSU. Switch if MM’ing demands it but the sooner we get it the better.
I thought about building a ship to go hunting but then figured, naw, 2 civs to fight is good enough.
F4 at end shows no new contacts. Aztecs up CB and map making. Wow, Abe is down writing, math and HBR, up CB. Surprise from me. At the rate they are going , after we get GL, we may have to research anyhow. Once we get a leader for an Army I assume we’ll meet them all while pillaging. Hey good to meet ya’! Excuse me? What language is that your talkin’? Well, let me slap your face, burn your crops and destroy your production. Bye now!

1000BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_BC1000.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman_1000.jpg

Originally posted by Greebley
I think we should start the library prebuild and go for writing. Then if we have sufficient time, go for HBR othersise go for lit (we can compare lit time to build palace build times.

Since we are tactless, we want the great lib I think.

Better safe than sorry. If you want to pre-build no objections here.

What do you all think about building a boat to start scouting before the boat traffic gets too heavy. More contacts helps us when we get the GL.

Barbslinger - I don't like charriots either, just figured we needed a couple to hit & run wounded enemies with, and they upgrade to horsemen.

Originally posted by T_McC
…
@Handy - I tried to look at the save, but I couldn't extract a file from your zip. If you are using Windows XP, the easiest way to zip a file is go into File Manager or My Computer, find the file and right-click on it. Then select Send To --> Compressed (zipped) Folder. Or maybe it's just me having the problem.

I’m using Windows XP home, and the way you described it above is how I zipped it. I went back to the forum, downloaded the file, unzipped & opened it since I was a little unsure of myself. Don’t know why it did not work for you. :confused:

A few more general comments. We don't need to settle the second iron, since we can't trade it, and will go to war with anyone else who does try to claim it. It may be more useful to not settle it, to give the AI a strong reason to land settler pairs in our back lines, giving us an easy source of cheap labor.

Good idea. Just don’t let anyone settle on the hill as they get a defensive bonus.

The four-turn warrior/settler cycle just requires setting the capital to +5 food and at least 10 shields/turn. I think Slinger will get to go through that cycle once before the GA ends. (Although it looks like it will be settler then warrior, since he's picking up in the middle of Handy's sequence)

There should be 3 warriors ( 1 extra) in the capital so when the settler ends there is already a warrior to escort him.

With regards to the hill city three tiles from Tecumseh, our tentative dot-maps had it one further E, on the forest. This was the only square that was both coastal, and on a river. It is not within one turn troop movement of the capital. I don't believe this is a real concern, as it could only be attacked by a sea-borne invasion, and we'll have more than enough advance warning to get troops there.

Are you talking about the city named "Sherman"? I thought I was supposed to build on the “yellow square” in T_McC's Dec. 01, 10:26 PM post the map where you compared your sites to Greebley’s sites. Is there another map after that one? :confused:

On a somewhat related note: What is up with the Aztecs? If I'm reading Handy's turn log correctly, in 10 turns they could only muster up two regular warriors? I know they have Warrior Code, so why aren't they building Jags? If they are fighting someone else, they must be getting hammered. Has anyone played a game with the Aztecs as an opponent and found something broken? (i.e., they don't know to build their UU).

You read it right, only 1 warrior pair was killed. At the end of my turns a second pair showed up. The next player can kill them. They Aztec's have lost a lot of units (maybe some cities) in their earlier war. Perhaps they are vulnerable enough for us to make a play for their silks.

About aztecs not building UU's in C3C, I have not played any C3C with the Aztecs, but I have noticed in another non AW C3C solo game I cannot trade territory maps, even after astronomy has come in. I think I read somewhere in C3C you cannot trade world maps until you get navigation. I must say, the agricultural trait + the pyramids are a powerful combination.

Originally posted by handy900

I’m using Windows XP home, and the way you described it above is how I zipped it. I went back to the forum, downloaded the file, unzipped & opened it since I was a little unsure of myself. Don’t know why it did not work for you. :confused:


I ended up using a 3rd party unzip utility and could extract the save. Just weird.

Originally posted by handy900

Are you talking about the city named "Sherman"? I thought I was supposed to build on the “yellow square” in T_McC's Dec. 01, 10:26 PM post the map where you compared your sites to Greebley’s sites. Is there another map after that one? :confused:


The city site referred to is shown as the purple dot in the map posted by Slinger (near the top of this page). You did correctly settle on one of our agreed-upon spots.

TMcC, You are up now. Play when you can.

I am hoping we can settle forward as well as back, though we will have to see on that. My advice though is to still build some settlers for this possibility.

I think I'm up, so "Got it". Should be able to play tonight.

I noticed from the save that our Palace is 300 shields, and the G. Lib is 400, so we'll have a little build time after discovering Lit. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if we got a Sci. GL for discovering Lit 1st? From the demographics I can tell no one else has it yet.

If we can swing it before the G. Lib completes, it might be a good idea to go as hard as we can at Philosophy, to try to get the free tech. I think that would allow us to grab Currency, and would give us something useful to build besides units. Also, building the MoM in LSU could be real useful, allowing us to run it 3 sizes larger than the lux tax would otherwise allow.

Also good news, we don't know anyone who has started the Statue of Zeus.

GR2 - Sherman's War

1000BC (0)
The Aztecs are fairly lame, I don't see any of their units. There is a settler active, I'm not sure where to send him. I think I'll defer to corruption concerns and build a city that would be farther from the capital than LSU. So Slinger's purple dot will have to wait for later. I move a Javelin out of Shiloh, just to see if I can catch the American scout going someplace stupid and enslave him. Swap a couple of builds, Resaca (which apparently is a Civil War battle site. Who knew? :) ) swapped to worker to connect it to the rest of the empire. Tecumseh swapped to Horse, tiles swapped around to get +5 food in Tecumseh. Swap Chatanooga to a Curragh.

I'd really like Texcoco to grow to size 2, so it wouldn't autoraze when captured. I do think I'll get to go on offense by the end of my turn.

Move sliders to 4.5.1, Lit in 16, +2 gpt. Needs to be re-evaluated on next turn after LSU grows. Would be nice to have 60 gold to upgrade the two chariots.

IT - Scout runs opposite way. Bummer

975 BC (1)
Raise lux to 20% for LSU. Lit in 12, +1 gpt.

IT - Single regular Aztec horse appears next to Bull Run.

950 BC (2)
Two 'pult shots on horse, Javelin wins and spawns a slave. Move two native workers to chop forest S of Shiloh.

IT - Ottomans complete Oracle

925 BC (3)
Found Manassas S, S, SE of LSU. LSU now has access to its full 21. Chatanooga: Curragh --> Granary. Dinky boat heads CCW from Chatanooga. Send workers and slave to chop wood near Sherman. (You know, after seeing this city, I really had a hard time resisting the temptation to name the next city Peabody. :D ) Lit now in 10, +4 gpt.

IT - Nothin'

900 BC (4)
Tecumseh: Horse --> Settler (tentative). Sherman: Spear --> Horse. Spear sent to Manassas.

IT - Nothin'

875 BC (5)
Shiloh: Chop assisted Javelin --> Spear. Resaca: Worker --> Granary. I'm tired of waiting, 3 Javs and 2 Swords approach Texcoco.

850 BC (6)
Stack moves adjacent to Texcoco. Spear guards workers building roads around Shiloh. I'll stick with the Settler in Tecumseh.

IT - We Have An American Sighting! Abe sent two regular warriors.

825 BC (7)
Assault on Texcoco. Lose a Javelin to a reg Spear with Archer support. Sword defeats reg. Spear. Vet Sword loses to 2 hp Spear. Javelin def. 2 hp Spear. Javelin defeats Archer, promotes to elite, and Texcoco burns. We also capture a worker. Fairly mediocre results.

Dinky boat sights another reg. American warrior. Catapult moved to Bull Run, so we have 4 cat shots at the American units next turn.

Tecumseh: Settler --> Spear.

800 BC (8)
Cats go 2 for 4 on American warriors. Javelin attacks first warrior and generates a slave. Horse retreats from 2 hp warrior. Dinky boat shows that Abe is at least into the spirit of the game, as it sees 3 more regular warriors heading down the coast. Sherman: Horse --> Spear. Bull Run: Sword --> Sword.

IT - Aztecs build the Pyramids for us.

775 BC (9)
Tecumseh: Spear --> Spear. Abe seems to have wised up. His warrior fortified outside of our borders rather than approach Bull Run.

IT - Americans begin building Temple of Artemis. That would be nice to have.

750 BC (10)
Americans plop warrior next to Bull Run. Cats score two hits, Horse finishes job. Aztecs advance archer towards Shiloh (or worker stack).

Total military score: We killed 6 units, lost 2, and captured 3 slaves. Not real inspiring results, but these clowns will not try to attack us.

To next Leader (Greebley) - There is a stack assembling in Shiloh consisting of a settler, 2 workers, and at least 4 defensive units to make the push into Azteca. My thinking for a dot map will follow.

I was trying to build Horses in Tecumseh and Sherman, and Swords/Javelins on the front lines. The spasm of Spears at the end was to prepare the defensive stack for the aggressive settlement. Feel free to veto the granaries (not much else for the coastal cities to build, as they are sort of shield-poor) or change the mix of troop builds.

Sherman set the Wayback Machine for 750 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_750_BC.zip)

You had me laughing a couple times, thanks. The war goes slow. the pyramids are finished so expect units being generated from that city for a while. It is hard to get a leader wher yo only get to attack 8-10 times every 20 turns! My beer is up to more war and slaves. Hip-hip-hooray!

My take on the Azteca settlements:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_750BC_DM2.JPG

Blue dot would be the first city founded, and then we could capture Teotihuacan to complete the front line. The two red dots could be founded behind the front lines. Calix... has to burn as it is founded on a cow.

I got it. I will try playing this now.

Preturn: Looked at our empire. It has grown! I MM Tecumseh in an attempt to get the spear next turn (I may miss by a shield due to corruption, in which case I will probably switch to a horseman). Upgrade 2 chariots.

IBT: 3 american warriors appear.
Tecumseh:spear->settler

730 BC (1):
Speed up our prebuild of th GLib by merging in the 2 workers. Lux to 30% (Lit in 3).

Bombard an Aztec archer, then attack with a horse and kill it. Horse is now Elite.

Send some units toward the new settle site.

IBT:
American warriors enter our lands.
One aztec Jaguar enters our lands.

710 BC (2):
Bombard and attack the American warriors for no losses.
Bombard and attack the Jaguar warrior with our Jav thrower who gets a worker and is now elite.

Advance the units. I am thinking of a slightly more forward spot than yours, TMcC and grab the river.
Switch Sherman to a settler
Switch Resaca to walls (granary looks like not the best choice too may sea squares and needs aquaduct - it might be a point of attack during the boat years).
Orange border spotted.

IBT: A purple warrior spotted and the Iroquois are building the temple of Artimis.
Shiloh: Swordsman->Swordsman

690 AD (3)
I decide to not send the ship farther north. It appears there are more ppl on our continent. The window to attack the Aztecs is going to close very fast.

Declare war on the Iroquois (our exploring dinky does its dinky little attack on the Iroqouis that does no damage, but they get the idea.

IBT: All quiet on the northern front.
Tecumseh: Settler->Swordsman

670 BC (4):
Research Lit - Start Currency at min science.
Switch LSU to GLib due in 10 (it is up to 21 shields - 5 for corruption).
Settle the town of Lancaster (Walls)
Move some troops near Aztecs.

IBT: Forbidden palace message
Bull run: Swordsman->Spearman
Sherman: Settler->Worker

650 BC (5):
Attack on tecotihuacan (can't read it all - guessing at first letters):
Bombarding damages a spear.
Horse vs reg spear wins
Jav thrower vs (2 hp) spear wins.
Elite horse vs archer wins and the city is destroyed.

Savannah switched to a settler.

IBT: Aztecs settle a town to the N.

630 BC (6): Our elite horse accidentally steps into Aztec territory. Spots a settler/spear pair.

IBT: A horseman attacks our elite horse and wins. My finger fumbling costs us.
Tecumseh:Sword->Settler

610 BC (7): Attack and kill injured horse that attacked us with a horse and then retreat.
Send 2 units toward Calixtlahuaca (sword + horse)

IBT: Aztec Spear/Settler advances
An american spear approaches.

590 BC (8):
Bombard spear and miss.
Attack spear with vet horse and lose - spear promotes
Attack injured spear with vet horse and win - settler becomes 2 workers.
Build the city of Augusta (walls)
Bombard American spear to 1 hp. Elite Jav thrower attacks and wins. A spear covers it.

IBT:
Savannah: Settler->Walls

570 BC (9):
Two units outside CalixtLahuaca.
Risk sending spear to pillage Axtec horses.

IBT: Spear risk fails as a reg archer kills the spear without injury.

Tecumseh:Settler->Sword
Bull Run: Spear->Settler
Sherman: Worker->Javalin Thrower
Chatanooga: Granary->Settler

550 BC (10):
Attack Calixlahuaca with the horse which retreats. Move horse out of enemy territory. Attempt to have the sword cover, but fumble finger it.

Notes:
In the nothern most darkness above the USS Dinky you can (barely) see an orange outline.

There are 2 settlers for towns I hoped to build in their correct spots. One is near the Silks. There are already workers connecting up the silks and the road to our home. The other one is on the hill E of Savannah. You can move them if you want.

The troops near the new silk town are in a bit of disarray. When the town gets built we will also want to fix this. The catapult that is taking point was trying to bombard the road across the way to slow aztec troops. No luck yet.

The great library is now only 4 turns away. I cut the time by several turns at the cost of a higher Lux rate.

Enemy attacks have been incredibly lame. Are they still at war? Because of this I was aggressive on our front line.

I think we will need one or two more units to take out Calixtlahuaca. My suggestion is to just have the horse and sword guard and contain any units from down there while new ones move up.

Handy you are up

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_BC550.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_550_BC.zip)

Got it.

Very nice progress. Iron, horses, 2 luxuries and weak foes. I've never been a part of an AW start quite this fast.

Do we have 2 lux? We almost have the silks. Did we get another one and I missed it?

I would continue to probe forward. As long as they are weak, lets push them back. Just establish defense points as we go that we can fall back to if things do get rough.

I would also consider building a boat to send around the island to go up the western coast. It would be nice to know if there are other choke points or if the continent widens making it hard to defend.

Greebley - I was counting the incense near the capital + silks to get to 2 luxuries.

I missed your post about the boat until I was done. Good idea, I should have done it.

My turns are below. I was going to get aggessive, but we went to war with 2 more civs (total of 5 AI's now at war now) so I backed down a little & settled a nice grassland spot behind our front line.

Doh! I totally forgot the incense. Of course we have 2. How could I forget the incense? Its the reason we are at war with 5 people - our people are easily incensed :D

Understandable, on not pushing forward. I knew our window of opportunity was closing fast. We have already grabbed a decent junk of land - enough to support our war efforts I think.

Looking forward to your report :)

Pre turn 550 BC
Move jav from Bull Run to Augusta
I think I’ll move the settler near Savannah 1 tile W & build on the ruins so there is less overlap. That is 2 turns from Lancaster.

Turn 1 525 BC
Galley moves near the conscript fortified on the Iron way south.
Cat destroys Aztec Road N of Silk City
Found Paducah (silks) set the build to walls.
Move sword next to Calixtlahuaca into the forest. He can attack any unit on the grass that leaves this city while he waits for reinforcements. Be nice if that city grows to size 2 before we take it.
I’ll keep the dinky moving north. If he spots something I’ll let you know.
Move two jav towards Tlatelolco. I indent to pillage their horses. We need to lick the Aztecs ASAP so I don’t have to type these city names.
Worker stuff.

IBT
Regular archer leaves the Aztec city of Calixtlahuaca, which loosely translates “too hard to type"
American spear approaching Augusta

Turn 2 500 BC - C3C thinks it’s 510 BC :confused:
Found Lincoln – set to barracks as it is well behind our lines.
Vet sword loses to regular archer near Calitoohardtotype type” :mad: Can’t believe it, regular grass no defensive bonus!
Horse kills “lucky shot archer”

IBT
Tecumseh – sword – sword
Shiloh – sword – sword
Manassas – walls – barracks
I guess the Aztec boat is just exploring, he went right by the IRON.

Turn 3 475 BC – C3C says 490 BC
Dinky sees an orange colored border
Move on top of Aztec horses.
The settler is heading into Aztec territory next turn for a river site next turn.
Silk road & GL due next turn.

IBT
Two javs escorting the settler kick butt and kill 2 archers on defense & net us 2 slaves. Somewhat makes up for the sword we lost earlier.
Two Jaguar warriors approach Paducah (silks).
We get the Great Library
Set LSU to Library due in 5 turns. I pan to switch to temple when we learn CB so I can lower the luxury tax.
Set research slider to zero ( we have a scientist in Shiloh)

Turn 4 450 BC c3c thinks it’s 470 BC
Pillage Aztec horses.
Augusta looks well defended. I think I’ll explore & pillage with these two jav.
Lone American spear is in the forest near Augusta. I’m waiting for him to get out of forest before I attack.
Move 2 cats from Lancaster to Paducah. AI attacks will likely come near the silks.
Move settler & wounded victorious javs to cover of a sword.
Bomb & hurt a jag warrior.
Change Tecumseh to horseman
Sword attacks & kills regular jag near Paducah
Horse kills wounded jag then retreats back to cover.
4 workers chopping near Paducah
Dinky’s captain greets Osman and says “You remind me of a sow on my farm back home, you big, fat pig. Your hat looks like something my grandma would wear to play bridge! Oh, by the way, we declare war on you and our plans are to pillage all your lands, raze most of your cities, enslave your people and steal your secrets.”

IBT
We learn Ceremonial Burial & Mysticism & Map Making & Polytheism & Monarchy & Construction & – (FYI- the 1st mate of the Dinky stole these from the Ottoman library while his captain had Osman’s attention.
We revolt immediately to get to Monarchy
Archer approaches Paducah.

Turn 5 425 BC c3c says 450 BC
Bomb & kill archer near Paducah with elite sword.
Dinky spots more purple borders (probably Iroquois). Appears to be lots of swamps and jungle up north.
I decide to use our settler east of Lincoln. We have a good front line 7 I don’t want to get too extended since we now have Otto coming after us.
Position sword & jav to kill American spear next turn. Hope for another slave.

IBT
We learn Philosophy
Aztecs launch a surprise attack with one regular archer East of Sherman by the mountains.

Turn 6 400 BC 3c3 thinks it’s 430 BC ?? This is driving me crazy!
LSU & Sherman swap vet sword for warrior to deal with this invasion. Sword can kill him on flat ground next turn.
Just in case I upgraded a regular warrior to sword in LSU as a backup.
Four cats hit the American spear & take only 1 point. Elite jav kills spear and gets a slave.
Purple border up north was Iroquois.

IBT
Pillaging javs get attacked, redline, and win.
Aztec archer moves onto mountains towards a worker. I’ll empty Sherman & leave an open unprotected city as bait.

Turn 7 375 BC c3c says 410 BC
Other pillaging jav kills lone Iroquois warrior & gets a slave, and also uncovers the Aztecs capital city. I’m going to try & sneak them home since they are wounded.
Aztec

IBT
Revolt ends. Greebley anointed king in a very moving ceremony . The queen is hot!
Archer exits from Calitoohardtotype.
There is an American spear & Settler north of Augusta. I think they are headed for the fish.

Turn 8 350 BC c3c says 390 BC
Brave pillagers look like they will make it home unless horsemen from somewhere arrive soon.
Different shade of purple is seen by Dinky’s lookout.
Found Greebleyville in honor of the king. I couldn’t resist. Set to barracks.
Horse kills archer @ Cali… ”too hard to type”
Move sword & jav towards American spear N of Augusta
Archer takes the bait near Sherman and is killed. Vet sword promotes.
Switch LSU to temple

IBT
Resaca –> walls –> barracks
Paducah -> walls -> barracks
America is building the Hanging Gardens

Turn 9 325 BC c3c says 370 BC
Sword kills American spear & gets 2 slaves from the settler. I was too chicken to attack first with the jav because the spear was in forest, & the jav was wounded from the last American battle. Decided to use sword, 2 slaves was good enough.
Dinky’s captain meets the Inca chief Pachacuti and tells him “Nice hat you got there boy, since you are a turkey, a hat that looks like a turkey is most appropriate. Oh, by the way, we plan to steal all you wines and wipe you off the face of the earth after we steal all your secrets.”

IBT
Ottoman regular warrior and Settler move in North of Augusta headed towards the Fish. We need a road there so
Tecumseh –> horse -> horse

Turn 10 300 BC on my clock, 350 BC on c3c
> I moved the cats into the forest 1 tile NE of Augusta so you can bomb the settler + warrior pair next turn. Two American slaves are building a road where the cats are.
> I moved a sword from Lancaster to Shiloh that you can move to Augusta next turn.
> The two wounded pillaging jav are 1 tile away from safely near Lancaster.
> Lone scientist in Shiloh will get currency in 37 turns. Research slider is zero 7 lux is 30% earning us 19 GPT.
> Greebleyville has no garrison As units come from Calitoohardtotype you can kill with the horse. You may want to send the next horse from Tecumseh to this area.
> Good luck with the RNG!

Greebley, I think I played 10 turns – honest! Below is a screenshot of my “autosaves” so you will know I’m not making this up. I’ve also posted a pic of the “F8 victory conditions, so you can see there have been 110 turns so far in the game in the lower right corner. Since the turns are divisible by 10 I think this is where I should stop.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_victory_pic.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_autosave_pic.JPG

Here is the save. It is not zipped, but is named per Greebleys instructions as GR2_350BC.sav. It's a small file.
I think it is 300BC, C3C thinks it is 350 BC :confused:
The Save, it's either 350BC or 300BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350_BC.SAV)

Three Pics at the end of my turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350bc_pic1.JPG


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350bc_pic2.JPG


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350bc_pic3.JPG

I still don'y know when the times change. I saw a post one time but in the heat of battle you look for 50's. I'll straighten it out on my turns, no biggie. Looks like we are doing pretty well. Running out of city names already pre-AD. I'll see if I can find some more.

Handy, you played correctly. We are in the 20 years between turns phase.

The turns go

1250 years (25 turns) of 50 years per turn to 2750 BC
1000 years (25 turns) of 40 years per turn to 1750 BC
1000 years (40 turns) of 25 years per turn to 750 BC.
1000 years (50 turns) of 20 years per turn to 250 AD
1000 years (100 turns) of 10 years per turn to 1250 AD.
500 years (100 turns) of 5 years per turn to 1750 AD
200 years (100 turns) of 2 years per turn to 1950 AD
100 years (100 turns) of 1 year per turn to 2050 AD.

If you add it up you will find it sums to 540.
So my turns were 750 - 550 and yours were 550 - 350.

I have a personal theory on why they go every 20 years from 750 to 250 AD. The reason is that there is no 0 AD. The calender goes from 1 BC to 1 AD. If they went every 25 years they would have hit 0 AD. Imagine the protests over the lack of realism if they put a turn at 0 AD. People already irate over the spearman vs tank issue would be driven over the edge and the Fraxis offices pillaged. By going from 10 BC to 10 AD they sneakily avoid this issue. Only the most devout complainer would complain that this is really only 19 years apart and it should really be 11 AD.

So there you have it. You correctly played from 550 to 350. Barbslinger, you are up to play 350 to 150 BC. It looks like you might get the first heavy war years. Good luck :goodjob:

Looked at a few things and then also started turn 1. I'll post tonight.

I decided to make a reference chart (My reason for making this is more because I like making reference charts than any innate need for our game to have it, but hey, here it is):


Greebley Handy900 Barbslinger TMcC
BC
4000-3000 3000-2550 2550-2150 2150-1750
1750-1500 1500-1250 1250-1000 1000-750
750-550 550-350 350-150 150-50 AD

AD
50-250 250-350 350-450 450-550
550-650 650-750 750-850 850-950
950-1050 1050-1150 1150-1250 1250-1300
1300-1350 1350-1400 1400-1450 1450-1500

Boy, this thing is turning around fast. I may be up again tomorrow!

Now for some sprawling comments.

@Greebley - The site you chose for Lancaster is where my first instinct was to settle. I tried a different dot-map because I couldn't figure out how to place the cities around the silks.

@Handy - good call to move the settler off the hill. We don't need to build cities with 1st ring overlap in our back lines.

My notes from the save (apparently too late, as Slinger has already started playing):

We are in Monarchy, and are allowed 3 MP's. LSU not having 3 MP is costing us 14 gpt. Any unit is cheaper to build than a temple, and is just as effective. Or, we could keep the shields, build a couple of MP for LSU elsewhere, and switch to the Hanging Gardens.

Don't wait of Cali... to grow. It is founded on a cattle tile, so it should be razed and replaced.

I would also suggest switching Lincoln to a Galley, as it is our western-most coastal city. Its good news/bad news about having 6 civs on the same continent. We'll be facing a lot of units, but from a little diplomatic espionage, the three civs that would talk to us only have about 7-8 cities each. We will eventually wear them down with our size. The other continent will likely have larger civs, but a slower tech pace. As long as we are the ones to find them we may have more advanced units on contact.

Also from espionage, Monty doesn't have Iron or Horses, Abe lacks Iron, and Hiawatha has both.

Thanks for the turn count & reference chart Greebley. That was bugging me. Didn't realize there were 20 year turns in there.

This game is turning around very fast!

350BC pre turn – Look at LSU and see that since growth is in 32 and there are a number of wonders still available I’ll take a shot at one. Temple of Artemis construction begins, due in 28. Preferably Sun Zu will be ours when Fuedal comes in. I would certainly like Leo’s too. MM’ed to give Bull run 10spt Mines are coming in soon for Shiloh and Lincoln so I don’t feel that bad abot stealing theirs. I hurries Lancaster and Augusta walls. Those babies are invaluable. Really want to either clear the forests near frontline towns or push the front further out. An army would help too. MM’ed Chattanooga to 5spt leaving Tecumseh at 10spt. Looks like governors are on. I killed them. Sherman runs his towns. Pulled shields from rushed wall towns to get extra food for this turn. MM’ed around core to get Chatt and Sherman to 5spt and Tecumseh and Bull Run @ 10spt. LSU is now at 17 clean shields and temple could be had in 2. I’m switching it back and starting a prebuild after. I dropped lux 10% and LSU, the one problem city is 4-1-4 now. 100g +30gpt.

IT – An Aztec archer pair come head towards Lancaster. An Iro archer warrior pair come in towards left side of Augusta. Gotta get rid of that forest defense for them. The Otto settler/warrior pair try to slide by on the right side of Augusta and our SOD in forest.
Bull Run – Settler > Sword in 4
Savannah – Walls > Sword in 15. Probably changing down the line. We’ll see.
Lancaster – Walls > Worker
Augusta – Walls > Barracks

330 BC – turn 1
Otto settler pair fight. Use 2 pult shots for one hit on warrior. 4-5 jav takes him losing 2hp. 2 slaves. I slide the other cats and sword into town to await archer. Workers will be clearing forest soon. Swapping out a 4hp warrior for a 3hp between Tecumseh and Resaca. Will upgrade the 4hp if/when the Aztec galley drops off something for me to dispose of. Shiloh sword stays in Shiloh. 3tile trip to either frontline city from there.
Dinky sees another Incan city, the capital, Cuxco. Settler, I don’t know whether intent was front line or fill out core, he heads to end of road S of Sherman. Just notced that we have mines blocking fresh water to southern cities. Will need a new mine and then drag water down.

IBT – No new enemy troops. They all slide right towards Augusta.
LSU – Temple – Artemis, hopefully SunZu
Sherman – Jav > Jav
Chatt – Settler > Barracks

310BC – turn 2
Cats in Augusta go 1 for 2 on warrior archer. I move remaining cats back into town and move 2-5 jav back towards town. An American settler pair are now working their way down. 4hp sword knocks out archer and goes elite losing 1 hp. Horse takes care of warrior unscratched.
Upgrade warrior to 4hp sword. Swap new jav in Sherman for 5hp sword on worker sentry duty. Need him up front for a leader. Worker is killing a mine W of Sherman to get irrigation down. Moved a spear in Lancaster on the mountain to get two there in case the archer pair has ideas of capturing the mountain.

IBT – Another archer pair is heading towards Augusta.
Tecumseh – Horse > Horse

290AD – turn 3
Unscratched horse gets one scratch killing settler pair spear and goes elite. Slaves back with the others, 7 now. Cats go 4/4, yeah to reduce 1st archer pair to 1/3’s. Will only take one out so as not to expose myself to second archer pair. 4-5 sword loses two hp but does the trick. Expect other one to run home crying.
Montgomery founded in far east mountains per dotmap, set to worker. Changed Sherman over to library because there are 2 chops going on nearby and its growing next turn. Dinky rounds a horn at Cuzco and spots a vineyard.

IBT – As anticipated, archer with the owie runs home. Other pair threaten horse. America send a single warrior next to jav watching slaves irrigate near Paducah. Fortunately they had just finished the job. Also a reg archer is coming down.

270BC – turn 4
Slide slaves out of the way to clear a forest. Found Missionary Ridge near the 3 hills S of Sherman, set to barracks.
Near Augusta – Cats go 4/4 again! They’ve been practicing. The kinda scratched horse I take a chance with and he gets first shot and a kill. Scared me though when the bombard came out, it missed. The horse coming up from Tecumseh finishes off the other one and goes elite. The slaves finish road and clear forest near Augusta. Gonna try to clear some more forest. MM’ed Shiloh to get sword this turn. Jesus, finally noticed Cali! Sent 5/5 horse over to attack spear. It retreated. Sorry.

IBT- The archer that went home crying must of heard me because that idiot turned around and is coming back for more. The American warrior, archer get within striking range of Paducah entourage.
Bull Run and Shiloh > Sword > Sword
Ottomans start HG and finish Zeus.

250BC – turn 5
Elite jav calls the 1/3 a crybaby again, in tears he crumples and is now a crying slave (renamed Crybaby). Cats in Paducah go 3/3, these guys are good. I think I’m changing some builds! Elite jav gets a slave from warrior. Elite sword, across river, takes out archer. Sending some boys down to take care of Cali. Its size 2 now.

IBT – Nothing from the enemies. Currency comes in from GL. Code of Laws next.

230BC – turn 6
Nothing but heading to Cali. Few forests and mines. Montgomery has the lone sci since there are 3 food from town.

IBT – We hit the Middle Ages. GL gives CL and set to feudal. No enemies.

210BC – turn 7
Nothing but positioning.

IBT – An Iro settler pair come south towards Augusta to become slaves. An archer steps out from Cali.
Bull Run – Cat > Aquaduct
Shiloh – Cat > Cat

190BC – turn 8
Moved workers over in Augusta to road and clear forest. Put 2 cats and a couple elites there too. I don’t think spear/settler pair will attack. 5/5 jav barely gets by the archer in Cali. Others step up.

IBT – Settler pair does in fact head for 2 empty tiles. It’s like bait for settler pairs. 3 archers, 2 USA and 1 aztec are heading to Paducah

170BC – turn 9
3 cats in town roll out on road and go 2/3 on settler pair. 5/5 horse does the deed. 2 more slaves.
Cali – 4/4 sword knocks off reg spear –2hp, 5/5 horse takes out reg spear losing 4 hp and we capture Cali. Set to granary for next leader to decide. It’s corrupt as all get out. Upgraded another warrior to 3/3 sword. Theres a galley gazing at the town I don’t like. Shiloh goes to Aquaduct because of max pop 6.

IBT – My 1st jag sighting steps up to be killed near Paducah along with American archer pair just out of range. Another settler pair, Otto warrior, near Augusta along with an Aztec archer.
Chatt – Barracks > spear

150BC – turn 10
Cats go 4/4 in Augusta and I take 5/5 horse to mop up archer with no scratches. 5/5 jav takes our Otto warrior and SHERMANS 1st DIVISION finally makes an appearance!!! He’s fortified with movement in Augusta.




The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_150_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman_150.jpg

Wasn't as agressive as I would have liked. I spent money here and there but we have around 350g now. I'm a little worried about the cascade wiping out SunZu, but hoping. The best thing though was now it's PILLAGE time! you might think about putting a sword in it, getting a kill while in town so Epic is available, and then when pikes come, which is soon, fill the rest of the army up.

The "settler pair" bait near Augusta is working well. :D
Turning into a worker farm. If we can delay culture in Augusta until we move our front further north we can get a few more slaves.

CATS We need more. I usually dedicate at least 1 city to building cats only. Should have done this on my turns. Oversight on my part. :( Greebleyville may be a good choice to build cats. At work now so can't see a save, another city may be better. I have total confidence in T_McC's ability to identify the optimum cat factory location. ;) Since we are at war with 5 AI's now, we are going to need a lot of cats. We may need 2 cities dedicated to cats. AI attacks will get progressively more frequent as the game goes forward when all 5 AI switch production to military.

City Governors My bad. Mr. lazy man turned them on when we revolted. After revolt I went back & MM's cities to fire the clowns, but forgot to turn governors off. :rolleyes:
Won't mess with them again.

A good set of turns Barbslinger. Nice attention to details.

I don't think we want to wait for Pikes to fill the army. I think 3 swords would be best. Defense two works until Cavalry, so it should be fine to start the pillaging. I think swords are better in that we can pick off random defense 1 units if we wish.

Let the pillaging begin :hammer:

Got it. I'll play later today.

We're making some progress, but it certainly appears we are now in a defensive stance until knights.

Took a look at the save, and did some diplomatic espionage:

Aztecs (6 cities), no lux, no iron or horses, in the Medieval Age
America (7 cities), no lux, no iron, Ancient Age (by a lot!)
Iroquois (7 cities), gems, Ancient Age
Incas (6 cities), wines, Ancient Age
Ottomans (8 cities), ivory, no iron, +Feudalism

It appears the only extra Iron on the continent is in our back lines. While the Ottos have built the SoZ, only the Iroquois will be able to build Knights to oppose us (I think the Inca lack one of the resources, but I don't have it written down). Once Monotheism and Feudalism pop from the Library, it may be in our best interests to self-research Chivalry, as Horses --> Knights is a pricey upgrade.

I'm really not sure what to put in the Army. On the one hand, I'd like to get a victory quickly, so we can build the Epic. On the other hand, almost anything I can put in the Army could be upgraded with Feudalism. If we want this to be almost exclusively a pillaging force, 1 sword (victory now) + 2 pikes will do nicely. But I had a another sneaky thought. The Ottos built the SoZ, and ancient cavalry are pretty tough. Except when compared to a 2 MDI/1 pike army (or MDI/sword/pike). The army could pillage some, and kill every AC while it is still in Otto territory. Hmmm ... maybe a good idea for the second army. I'm hoping that we are at least to the 3rd army before we can load knights into them. [Edit: Just read Greebley's post, think that may be best. Go out and meet the neighbors, being oh-so-slovenly all the way. :) ]

If these clowns are fighting with each other, I couldn't tell you who is fighting whom, as all cities appear to belong to their rightful owners.

I almost agree with Greebley. I wasn't sure if ancient cavalry would ignor a defense 2. Since it does lets put our UU jav in it and go slave collecting. We need to uncover the resources our enemies posess. Any iron and saltpeter when available needs an Army based nearby. This army is a pillager per rules. Next leader could be used to move palace to LSU (more centered) or to create an Army to kill off Ottos offense which sounds tough.

Originally posted by Greebley
A good set of turns Barbslinger. Nice attention to details.

I don't think we want to wait for Pikes to fill the army. I think 3 swords would be best. Defense two works until Cavalry, so it should be fine to start the pillaging. I think swords are better in that we can pick off random defense 1 units if we wish.



I agree swords are good enough and will last a long time. In my last turns in the Space-1 Rome game we still had a spear ARMY pillaging that the AI cavalry did not attack. Lets put the wood to them and slow down their production.

With regards to a pillaging, do you all think we should:

1. Keep the ARMY in Aztec lands & focus on Aztec production to deplete their units so we can capture their lands.

2. Explore & Pillage -> By this I mean sending this army all the way north on a zig zag pattern to both explore & pillage. It will take a long time to get all the way up north, and there are sure to be more armies following this one that can focus on the Aztecs. An ARMY that can pillage the Ottoman horses (if they have any) thereby eliminating their UU would be really nice.

I'm an option 2 advocate. Explore & Pillage.

With respect to attacking with this first ARMY, we will have few places to heal in AI territory. Turns wasted while healing after attacks could be spent pillaging. I have had my pillaging armies attacked in the past by the AI when they were yellow-lined (from bombardment). Granted, this happened with cavalry and tank armies, never ancient armies.

I would lean heavily toward just pillaging with this army & not ever attacking. Except maybe 1 defense units as Greebley said. Just think of all those AI worker turns you flush with every tile you pillage.

These are just off the top of my head random thoughts between phone calls @ work. ;) Rebuttals are encouraged and welcome.

We also need a quick win to qualify for epic. I think the AI will attack a sword army (offensive) If we put a sword and 2 spears we should be OK. Have a couple jags go for the tour too. When there are warriors we can try for enslave, otherwise pillage and explore finding resources.

Well, not to spoil the surprise, but we have an all-javelin Army, and I have confirmed it can enslave when attacking. :D

One problem with sending jags along for enslave would be how to get the slaves back to our homeland. If we go with Option 2 I don't see this army ever returning to our lands once it leaves for the far north. It will just pillage in Incaville and Ottoland until it dies [or we take the continent ;) ] If we keep extra jags near home instead, they can capture slaves on defense after cats bombard AI units.. Just my $.02, but I’d send the army out solo.

We do want a quick victory with the army to build the HE.

With regards to the issue of swords versus spears in the army, I don’t know for sure, but my hunch is the AI looks at the defensive rating of an army only, or perhaps just the fact it’s an army. Again, it’s a hunch from PTW experience, but I don’t think the AI factors the offensive capability of an army into a decision to attack or avoid an army. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm mistaken. Spears cost less, but swords do give us the option to kill the stray non retreat 1 hp defensive point AI unit on flat ground every now & then.

On another related topic, in my solo C3C game I’ve learned that military leaders can only be used to rush small wonders, not rush great wonders as in PTW. Scientific leaders can rush a Great Wonder.

I’m really enjoying this game. You all are great players with good ideas, make good points, and are helping to improve my solo game play. :goodjob: Thank you!

EDIT Jav defense of 2 is the same as a sword so it works just as well. Perhaps we can shuttle the slaves home on galleys :) No such thing as too many slaves when railroads come in.

GR2 - Electric Boogaloo

150 BC (0)
Our lone scientist is in Montgomery, an undefended size 1 town on the coast. Cali... is built on a cow, swap from Granary to Settler in order to move it over one. Probably want to balance front-line defense between Paducah and Lancaster. They will soon have 4 cats to share. Savannah switched to Jav, as three will disappear into the army. Shiloh will grow itself unhappy with an aqueduct, so swapped to spear. Libraries are not useful to us yet, so Sherman swapped to Market. Run Leader out of Augusta, to try to collect troops for army. Tecumseh needs MP, swapped to Spear. LSU is building the ToA, but is really building Sun Tzu. In 11 turns we will have enough shields to complete the wonder, provided Feudalism comes in. Also, hope that the Ottomans complete HG, as they are currently the only ones who can cascade to Sun Tzu. LSU could also use MP. With a little work, I think LSU can reach 20 uncorrupted shields. Bull Run is building an Aqueduct prematurely, instead I want another MP. Swapped to Spear. I am building all these spears so we can lower the lux tax, and so when we complete aqueducts we won't have to run specialists. What Bull Run really needs is a temple, so it can claim the fish. But the spear is cheaper, and the city will grow to 6 before a temple completes anyway.

Goals for this turn: Don't think I'll see any offensive action, so I'll target a leader on defense. Three MP in LSU and Tecumseh, two in any city attempting to build an aqueduct. Replacing (at least) the three javs in the army. Have some fun taking the Army for a spin. Try to MM LSU to get Sun Tzu on my turn.

The lux tax is costing 8 gpt. We are 15 over our support limit. May see if a city can be founded on my turns, but I won't hold my breath. Try not to unnecessarily spend money (i.e., rushing the settler out of Cali.., tempting, but not useful).

Double and triple-check that the only stack that can be attacked is the sword/spear/jav stack in Aztec territory. Confirm Inca lack Iron, so no knights for them.

<Return>

130 BC (1)
Shiloh: Spear (sent to LSU)--> Spear. Tecumseh: Spear (sent to Montgomery, as an Aztec boat is hanging around) --> Spear. Two American archers approach Paducah. Aztec archer wandering down. Dinky keeps going. Cats go 4/4 on archers outside Paducah. Form Army with leader before attacking archers. Elite sword offs one archer. Elite Jav nails other archer.

IT - Ottoman boat unloads a spear in the SW. See an Inca warrior/settler pair. Munch. Two Aztec archers wander around.

110 BC (2)
Lancaster: Cat --> Cat. Augusta: Barracks --> Spear. Bull Run: Spear (sent to LSU) --> Spear. Savannah: Jav --> Spear. Resistance ends, scientist moved to Cali. Montgomery switched to walls. Stupid winding river screwed up my loading the army. Cat moves and gongs Ottoman spear. Attack spear (in forest) with elite horse. Win. Dinky keeps rolling. Chatanooga will be a good producer once it gets some worker attention.

IT - Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, and Great Wall complete, all on our continent. The good news is that the Ottos did build the HG, and now have to cascade their ToA build onto Sun Tzu. (Iro built Great Wall). LSU switched to Palace. If Sun Tzu goes by the wayside, we'll just have to take the Masoleum there.

90 BC (3)
Paducah is the AI focus. See Aztec archer move that way, as well as two American archers. Aztec settler pair comes into view. Inca pair is trying to skirt out borders by going through the forest. Tecumseh: Spear --> Spear. Lux tax lowered to 10%. Now making 37 gpt. The settler pairs are tempting, but I'll let them enter our territory first., so I won't be exposed on a counter-attack.

IT - Refuse audience with Aztecs.

70 BC (4)
Sherman: Market --> Jav. Resaca: Spear --> Harbor. Chatanooga: Spear --> Spear. Incas begin MoM (during our turn?). There is a spear and 5 archers approaching Paducah. Inca warrior/settler pair approach Augusta. Two successful cat shots and an elite sword later, we get two more free workers. The Aztec pair will be in range next turn. Slight retreat from Paducah, to try to invite units across the river to be killed.

IT - Zip

50 BC (5)
Tecumseh: Spear --> Javelin. Lancaster: Cat --> Cat. Augusta: Spear --> Cat. Two successful cat shots on Aztec spear/settler pair, then attack with elite horse. Add two more slaves to the stack. Cats go 2/3 between Paducah and Lancaster, dropping a pair of Aztec archers to 2/3. Aztec spear in position to pillage silks near Paducah. Road to alternate source completes. Two American archers are knocked down to 2/3, and killed with elite units. Elite sword offs Aztec spear. Vet Jav enslaves Aztec archer, vet horse kills second of pair. Spot an Iro archer heading south. Dinky keeps rolling.

IT - Nothin'

30 BC (6)
Bull Run: Spear --> Aqueduct. Manassas: Spear --> Aqueduct (city only gets two spt, so will be more useful as economic town.) Missionary Ridge: Barracks --> Spearman. Down in that area, I figure the hills can go to Missionary Ridge. There is only one unit on our territory, and he's not next to a city, so I'll wait. The ARMY is healed and ready to rumble. Army attacks and enslaves the Iro archer.

Mid-round Tune-up: Our pre-build runs out in 17 turns, and Feudalism hasn't shown up. Research to 90%, Feudalism in 10 at -44 gpt. (We won't go broke.)

10 BC (7)
Shiloh: Spear --> Spear. Savannah: Spear --> Harbor. Two successful cat shots on Aztec archer, kill with elite sword. Hey, Monte sent a Jag! Go 1/3 dropping rocks on his head, and kill with elite horse. Aztec spear outside Augusta wants chicken, gets "Duck!" instead. Cats go 2/2. Elite sword finishes the job. Production in Lancaster swapped to cat. Move army into Aztec territory.

IT - Some troop movement.

10 AD (8)
Tecumseh: Jav --> Temple. Chatanooga: Spear --> Horse. Greebleyville: Barracks --> Courthouse (too corrupt to build troops). Two Aztec archer get in line for some pain. Both redlined, elite sword cuts down first, Jav enslaves second and promotes to elite. Army pillages two tiles, it appears as though Tenochtitlan is already disconnected. Now starting the process of migrating some of the slaves east into the core.

IT - Deny Iroquois audience.

30 AD (9)
Sherman: Jav --> Spear (3rd MP for size 7 and beyond). Augusta: Cat --> Spear. Paducah: Barracks --> Cat. Montgomery: Walls --> Harbor. Ottos complete MoM. Cats hit twice against American archer, Elite sword finishes. Gee, can you tell we aren't militaristic? Army pillages two more squares around Teno, then kills Jag.

IT - Nothing.

50 AD (10)
Shiloh: Spear --> Aqueduct. American settler pair comes into view. American spear threatens small stack of slaves. Didn't wear his hard hat, has two loads of rocks dropped on him. Finished with an elite sword.

We have 312 gold, and Feudalism is due in 6 at (cough) -51 gpt. We will complete Sun Tzu immediately upon discovery of Feudalism. I think we are heading for an infrastructure push, and hopefully I built enough defense to allow Greebley to slack off on the military builds. Kill ratio was 19 to 0, with 14 elite attacks producing 0 leaders. The Ottomans must be involved in two other wars, as I didn't hear a peep from them. At this point it is us against the Aztecs and Americans, and they are both sucking wind.

We have 25 spears, 11 swords, 6 horses, 12 cats, 7 loose javs and 3 javs in the army. Tenochtitlan is starving, and may be ripe for the picking by the close of Greebley's turn. We could use a couple more/larger cities for unit support costs.

Here's what we know of the Aztec lands. You can see they've been hard at work. :rolleyes:

What exactly is this army supposed to be doing? :confused:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR02_50AD.JPG

And here is the save:

Sherman in 50 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_50_AD.zip)

Nice work. :D

No wonder we have seen no Otto & Inca troops. They have no roads to travel on. :lol:

Nice of the Aztecs to put a city 2 tiles away from Augusta for us. Some serious wood has been chopped in Augusta.

Otto and Inca bound! Forward Ho!

Ok, I have got it and will see what I can do.

Decided I was too tired last night to do this game justice. I hope to play tonight however.

Good move to not play this one tired. I think my 10 turns took over 2 hours. :eek: Although I do write the report as I play.

Some stats from my turn:
We now have 35 slaves (+14), 25 spears (+15), 11 swords (+0), 6 horses (+0), 12 cats (+3), and 10 javs (+3, but really +0 due to 3 going into the army).

I guess I didn't set you up for immediate offensive action, but I do think you have the full range of options available to you. We have just about enough defense to allow our non-spear units to be used exclusively on offense. We'll probably want 5-6 more spears to free up all the swords and javs on the backline, but if you are hankering to hit the Aztecs again, those units could certainly wait. By the middle of your turn we will know essentially all of the southern lands, and can determine whether this continent has a natural choke point. I'm optimistic based on the way the land curves in the west where Dinky is exploring. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there is a real narrow point on this continent where the Americans (or Aztecs) have built a city, and all the Inca/Otto/Iro units are stuck north of there. We've been at war for >20 turns with each of them, and I think we have only seen 1 non-settler pair unit from the three combined.

If we capture Tenochtitlan, we will have to establish a 4-city front (if we want the cities connected by 3 tiles). And we do want to capture Tenochtitlan for the Pyramids. The new front would look like Tlatelolco, something SW of there, Tenoch.., and a replacement for the American city, and Paducah. Which is 5 cities. :rolleyes: I don't know, need more information to make an intelligent assessment.

We are under no threat whatsoever. The Aztecs lack iron and horses, and are 3 techs from building longbows. The Americans are really backward in tech, so must have rather small cities. The only civ with money is the Ottos, who have 123 gold. The others have less than 70 gold combined, hence they are having to build their units from scratch. The Iro are the only ones who have resources for knights (and could be building MW's, hence my thought they are stuck at some choke point).

We built the Great Library, but I don't think any of these guys can do much research for us. I figure one possible plan is to let the tech pace go as slow as possible while we build up our infrastructure (I guess we do need libraries this early), and then race for Chivalry before going on the offensive. Having strong two-move units will make it less critical to build cities so tightly, and may allow us to do more conquering than razing. A working FP would make this a real blowout.

So you can build offensive units, to capture the Pyramids now and try to put Monte out of his misery. Or you can do an entirely infrastructure round, as our cities can't be seriously threatened. Or you could settle a couple of more cities to get our unit support costs more under control. Any of these will work, but I think your decision could impact the next couple of players, particularly if you decide on infrastructure. I (for one) am perfectly comfortable with waiting until knights to go on the offensive. I believe we need to give a lot of worker attention to our core, hence I was trying to send most of the slaves east at the end of my turn. We'll get plenty more at the front during your turns.

It may be that these civs are fighting each other, but the city lists show no evidence of this. :confused:

It sounds like I have a good number of possibilities for my turn :D

I would really like to get the pyramids. It would be a big boon to our growth I think - and be at least as big as simply building infrastructure in terms of our ability to produce.

Are the pyramids in the capitol? I am at work right now and cannot check. If so I will at least consider probing forward to see.

Pyramids with our agricultural trait would be unfair. Let's raze the pyramids... on second thought let's keep it. :D

Preturn: Things look pretty good. I do switch Chattanooga to an aquaduct (I do like the half price aquaducts).

IBT: Some enemy units advance

Lancaster: catapult->catapult

70 AD (1):
Bombard enemy units.

E Jav kills Archer
V Jav kills Archer
V Horse kills Archer
Army kills an Archer and steps on hill to view west. Sees unconnected iron
E Sword kills Spear

I miss part of the river so my attack on an archer fails because the unit runs our of movement. I may get attacked next round.

Science can be lowered to 80%

IBT:
Archer attacks V Sword and wins.
Aztec boat lands an archer

Moved a unit out of Shiloh as last move and forgot to check it after doing so. It riots.

90 AD:
Sword kills "behind the line" archer.
Boat spots American border across the water. Our continent may have a northern and western branch.

E Jav kills Archer
E Horse kills Archer
E Sword kills Archer
V Sword kills Archer
E Horse Kills Archer

Units advanced toward aztec cities.

IBT: Two Settler spear pairs from Ottomans and Iroquois
Tecumseh: Temple->Heroic Epic (for more pillaging goodness).
Sherman: Spear->Spear
Lincoln: Temple->Settler

110 AD:
Attack on Tlateloco:
Bombard both Spears to 1 hp.
E Sword kills an Archer (in city)
E Horse kills an 1hp spear.
V Jav kills last spear gaining a worker. City is taken and renamed. (Is Bedford Forrest a person or place?)
V Sword loses to a R Spear

Change Augusta to a sword.

IBT:
Resistance Quelled + Riots in Bedford Forest Adjust Bedford forest to starve - no improvements to sell.

130 AD:

Bombardment
V Horse kills Archer
V Horse kills Archer
E Sword kills Spear (settler->2 Workers)
E Horse kills Spear (settler->2 Workers)

Move units so I am not attacking Capitol cross river.

IBT: Iroquois & Ottoman units show up including mounted warriors.

Missionary ridge: Spear->Spear

150 AD:
Bombardment
R Sword kills Archer
E Horse kills Archer
V Sword kills Archer

IBT: We learn Feudalism. Science to 0. Set research to Engineering (50 turns).

170 AD:
Bombard
Kill 2 mounted warrior
Attack Tenochiltlan (soon to be Atlanta)
E Sword kills spear
E Sword kills spear
V Sword loses to spear
V Sword kills spear
V Jaf Wins (get slave) vs spear
E Horse wins vs spear and city taken. We have the pyramids. Renamed to Georgia
(Note I thought I lost 2 units... might have forgotten to record one?)

Army kills horse
Swordsman kills Archer.

IBT: Archer attacks spear in Georgia and spear red-lined.

Chattanooga: Aquaduct->Temple
Lancaster: Catapult->Catapult

190 AD: Hurry walls in Bedford forest
Bombardment
Kill Horseman outside of Georgia

Army spots more troops incoming - especially horse.

IBT: No attacks. Georgia's resistance is quelled and riots.
Bedford Forrest: Walls->Temple
Sherman: Pike->Horse

210 AD:
Rush Calix settler
Elite horse kills archer
Elite horse kills warrior

IBT: More troop movement. Lots of mounted units.
We master Republic through the GL.

Bull Run: Aquaduct->Market Place
Shiloh: Aquaduct->Market Place
Calix... abandoned
Resaca: Harbor->Temple

230 AD:
Use regular Sword to help protect an injured horse.

IBT: Archer attacks regular Sword and loses. Horsemen outside our cities now.
Augusta: MDI->Aquaduct

250 AD:
Paducah, Missionary Ridge switched to a temple.
Rush walls for Georgia.

V Horse kills an Archer
Bombard a spear/settler
E Horse kills spear/settler.

Notes:
The heavier warfare is underway now. I don't think we will want to advance much more before knights. Look at the troop situation and see if we need to switch any cities. The number of troops I had were plenty for my turns, but in the last turn or two the war has become more intense.

It is hard to remember to starve the cities every turn (to get to size 1 by the rules).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD250.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_250_AD.zip)

Good to see we're making progress. :goodjob: Greebley.

However, in order to avoid major :smoke: , I advise Handy in the strongest possible terms

SWITCH LSU FROM THE PALACE TO SUN TZU'S

we do kind of need that.

Also, when we are starving cities, the non-workers could be taxmen instead of clowns. We could make an additional 14 gold on the next turn that way. Handy should also do a quick look at the cities to make sure to maximize trade when all else is equal. With these two tricks I got our income to +49 per turn with just a cursory MM.

I agree with Greebley that offensive operations may have to cease until we have knights. I also note a settler being built, any suggestion where it should go Greebley?

Bedford Forrest is for Nathan Bedford Forrest, who I believe was a Confederate General who specialized in cavalry operations.

When feudal came in I kept waiting to read switched palace to Sun Tzu. I thought I had read in an earlier post that it would be due when we got feudal. I heartily agree with doing the switch. Avoid this weed at all costs.
Great rejoicing on the Pyramids!
The clowns to tax men works great too. I use this in all my games when capturing larger pops, also in totally corrupt cities I build all growth, no mines, and then set a balance on city pop to be zero growth and a few taxmen depending on growth tiles available. You can get a lot of cash out of corrupt cities. 8-10 corrupt, do nothing, cities can generate 30 gpt or so.
Looks like bedford forest is just that! Both that city and Georgia have forests that have to be trimmed. Have worker crew ready to cut in one turn and then protect with an army if available. Those forests have to go with more units coming.
BTW, what is the army doing? It looks like it is heading N from the clear spots on map. We need to find the iron and horses and disconnect.
Good luck generating leaders next turn. When is Heroic Epic due?
Should be a pleasure to look at when I get home. Still at work until late. Damn JSF and tomahawk parts.

Originally posted by barbslinger
I thought I had read in an earlier post that it would be due when we got feudal.

Yeah ... that was an original erroneous conjecture.

Sun Tzu will be due in 9 turns after the first thing Handy does when he gets the save is to

SWITCH LSU FROM PALACE TO SUN TZU'S


:)

Thank you Civ gods. That will be a most required wonder if we are to quickly conquer our continent. Also on holding off until Knights. Isn't the Aztecs plain out of gas? We can at the least destroy him with an SOD. If we have the extra 5-6 units it looks like we can come around the left flank while defending the right side that looks to be getting the most action. We can raze Aztec cities at least. Leaving open land will get the AI producing settlers and not military. Just a thought.
If we get another army or can somehow uncover more map we can hopefully find a better choke to move to. The wide front we have is huge. [Edit] Just saw the minimap. Looks like a choke further N right before Otto lands.

“The general's reputation as a contemporary commander stems from his belief in total war”. From the site I found these new city names at.

Ft Sumter
Raleigh
Kennesaw Mountain
Pine Mountain
Nashville
Jonesboro
Hood
Johnston
Polk
Grant
Halleck
Dalton
Davis
Bushwacker Valley
Cobb
Milledgeville
Fort McAllister
Beauregard
Cameron
Griswoldville
Macon
Briar Creek
Buck Head Creek
Waynesborough

Army names -

McDowells 1st Div
Shermans 5th Div
Army of the Cumberland

The Teno city looks like it might be a good place to move the palace someday. 2 flood plains and 4 oasis, it could be a producer. Any thoughts? Still would like to maybe try the FP too.

3 things I noticed.

1. Otto horses are on the west coast of their area. Lets get 'em.

2. Lots of workers mining in corrupt land. I feel I would try to consolidate the slaves into a group to clear forest around our new front line. As an ulterior plan, leave 2 in a group just hanging around in an area that 3-4 cities can reach on one turn as bait. They will send their guys trying to free their slaves and we nail em' in a triangulation.

3. If we can clear the forest in Georgia 1st and then have a larger stack in Bedford, it will cause the AI to bypass Bedford to get after Geogia where we can get them on open ground. I read this tonight in Betazed Deity AWD. A bait city. I don't know exactly how this works because what do you knock the enemy out with once they get there? I suppose you could park units just behind the city. Would that work? Looking forward to using a bait city someday.

Well off to GOTM26. I finally read how to use treasure so I can get started in earnest. Good luck Handy, hello SunTzu!

Originally posted by barbslinger

2. Lots of workers mining in corrupt land. I feel I would try to consolidate the slaves into a group to clear forest around our new front line. As an ulterior plan, leave 2 in a group just hanging around in an area that 3-4 cities can reach on one turn as bait. They will send their guys trying to free their slaves and we nail em' in a triangulation.


I second (part of) that. It seems anything beyond Lancaster will be hopelessly corrupt, so after chopping forests those cities may be worth more to us with lots of irrigation/specialists than with mines. Being agricultural and having the Pyramids, we have some margin for error to at least see if we can get a 2nd (or 3rd) shield in these cities, and can probably wait until we build some courthouses before consigning these settlements to the ash-heap of "only good for specialists". But I would say anything we found/capture farther forward of our lines is hopeless to get production out of.

I also agree that we should look to "stack" workers and slaves so tasks complete in 1 or 2 turns. It gives us access to the improved tiles earlier, and makes it more likely we will complete tasks before we have to run. If I counted correctly on Greebley's turn, we have 43 slaves. Handy may want to look into merging our 5(?) native workers back into any of our cities that can add them happily. We'll have enough slave labor to accomplish anything, and would save 5 gpt in upkeep.

Originally posted by barbslinger
3. If we can clear the forest in Georgia 1st and then have a larger stack in Bedford, ... A bait city. I don't know exactly how this works.


The idea of a bait city is to leave one city (behind the front lines) either empty or very vulnerable. Enemy units should then try to pass through your front lines rather than attacking your cities. As they pass, you use all the units (especially artillery) you have accumulated on the front lines to attack enemy stacks. You are taking advantage of the AI targeting algorithm to effectively allow them no offense, as they will wait to attack until they reach their "target".

Originally posted by barbslinger
The Teno city looks like it might be a good place to move the palace someday. 2 flood plains and 4 oasis, it could be a producer. Any thoughts? Still would like to maybe try the FP too.

I think the FP would be a waste of time, as would jumping the Palace to anyplace other than LSU. If the FP worked in Conquests, the former Tenochtitlan would be an ideal placement. What having all that food does mean for Georgia is that it can produce a lot of income as taxmen.

Theres sort of a bit of a story behind the Sun Tzu that I didn't get recorded in my notes.
I did switch to Sun Tzu. However, after I did that my, 1 1/2 year old son got to the computer and did some extremely inadvisable moves, So I went back to an autotave. This meant that my switch to Sun Tzu got negated. When I redid the moves, the Switch got skipped. But since I remembered switching it, I didn't worrry about it or check again.
I am really glad I didn't accidentally build the palace. That would have been very embarrassing. Though technically, even by the RBCiv rules, you are legally allowed to take back moves like this and correct them, though a purist wouldn't. Fortunately, the palace didn't finish so I don't have to have the moral debate on whether to fix it or not.
One thing to note. The forest outside of Bedford Forrest is both a blessing and a curse. Now that the enemy has speed 2 unitis, without the forest they could attack the town from a distance of 1. The forest slows them down so they have to stop and get bombarded by catapults. Now that we have walls though, the forest will be more of a hinderance and will want to probably clear it.

Barbslinger,
If you are playing GOTM, I would play the Open class. I think only the conquest class gets treasure?? The conquest class is for ppl who are not as good. I would judge your skills good enough to play open and the satisfaction of winning is much higher - and you don't get the conquest score reduction. (If I got it wrong and there is treasure in open? Then ignore this comment!)

For the settler, I saw a place on the S coast that still could be useful (a fishing village near the iron would also work). The other spot I thought might be useful is between the two new cities.

And ya, change the clowns to taxmen. You have to readjust every turn. Previous turns I did exactly that. For the last turn I forgot that final step. I was getting a little tired at that point, and didn't do the thorough once over that the game needed.

[edit: Building the FP is not entirely useless. You can get some gain in gold and shields by building it. It improves distance corruption while keeping rank corruption the same.

Some of that unmined territiory is not entirely corrupt. With courthouses, we may be able to get to 50% corruption or so I am guessing. Also as I mentioned above, the forest is currently useful. Once we get pikes up there behind walls (I didn't have a lot of money for upgrades yet), then the forest should come down. When surrounded by forest, I would just leave the last unit of every stack without attacking it which then retreats as I have bombarded it. I think I do have a pike heading toward bedford forest which will guard the town. I would wait for one to also guard the forest choppers and then send up the workers to start clearing.

Originally posted by Greebley
I would judge your skills good enough to play open and the satisfaction of winning is much higher - and you don't get the conquest score reduction. (If I got it wrong and there is treasure in open? Then ignore this comment!)


Thank you for the kind words Greebley. :blush: I am finally feeling more confident with my game and the pieces are coming together. The open has treasure and I just posted.

The situation in the west, with two potential sites for the new city. I prefer the eastern dot, as it doesn't involve river crossings, even though it does generate 1st ring overlap with Augusta.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR_250AD_W.JPG

The potential site in the east:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR_250AD_E.JPG

Would be a low-corruption fishing village. We don't know whether it would get bonus food from the sea or not. Might be worth wandering the spear to the coast to find out before the settler is built. A double-food bonus site would be real nice. One without can probably wait.

On the subject of pillaging, the Iro horses are visible on the map. Cut that and we won't see any more Mounted Warriors. Another potential use for the army up in that area is to cut down every Ancient Cavalry that the Ottos produce. The AC have to pass the army, might as well kill them before they get to our cities.

Also note there is a settler (ours, but Aztec nationality) active in the SW. It is standing on the spot where I would found a new city, to allow full use of the cow.

My thoughts on where we would want to settle agree with yours, TMcC.

The settler already built is the Result of Calix... which we moved off the cow and is on the spot I thought we should settle. I was initially thinking of SE of the cow on the point, but decided this was bad in AW as it is distance 4 from the nearest city.

I will get it & play tonight. Keep posting your ideas. I'll read & make a to do list before I play.

1 tile between cities? Is the plan to set a bait city? If that is the strategy why not just put a few slaves just out of reach? As long as they are 3 squares from any enemy horse they stop, worker sticks his tongue out during interturn and we kill them and let slave watch.

Originally posted by barbslinger
1 tile between cities? Is the plan to set a bait city? If that is the strategy why not just put a few slaves just out of reach?

Not a bait city. The point was to found a city that could link the defense of Georgia and Bedford Forrest together. The eastern red dot is within three tiles of each, and there is no square that can do that and also avoid 1st ring overlap with some existing city.

On second look, I now like the western red dot better. Bedford is linked to Augusta, and the new city would link to Georgia and Paducah, effectively replacing Paducah on the front line. I think the new city would only be attacked by the Americans, so should be fairly safe.

A second reason I now prefer the western dot is because a patch has been announced for next week that fixes the FP. I think our FP will go in Georgia, so we don't want to crowd that area too much, and the western dot crowds less than the eastern dot.

It’s late. Here is an report I have not proofed. I look & edit in the AM.

Pre Turn
Switch LSU to Sun Tzu (due in 9). I just love wonders that place a building in every city.
Otto is also building Sun Tzu
Switch 1 citizen in Georgia to a scientist from clowns. Switch the rest to tax men. Engineering now due in 47.
See ancient cavalry + mounted warriors. We are going to need some horsemen to deal with these guys.
Move workers costing 5 GPT to a productive city.
Found cow city next turn.
Make a note top remember to starve the cities. We have no gold now, but for future reference can we rush buy workers out of captured towns in the future, or do we have to starve them to death? Rushing workers with cash is very cheap.
From my turns America seems to be a little weak. I’ll send the ARMY toward the Iroquois horses and Otto horses I see on the map.
Priority will be placed on chopping the forest near Bedford.
I notice several workers dispersed. I usually stack my workers to finish jobs quicker. Is this a worse strategy than stacking? I’m going to stack & chop this round. If it’s not a good idea, please let me know for future reference. Thanks.
Look like we are pretty heavy into infrastructure build. I’ll only switch if we suffer a few losses & need replacements.
I’ll try to sneak a stack of swords around the left flank to raze some Aztec cities.

IBT
Lots of troops move our way
V Ancient Cavalry (“AC”) kills elite jav in Georgia (walls were not done yet)
Georgia –> walls –> horse.

Turn 1 250 AD
Move units next to Georgia into Georgia
I count 14 AI units on the way. A couple are behind our lines probably going for workers.
I don’t really see a great bait city.
Attack horse behind lines with sword, & the horse retreats.
V horse kills the horse that retreated
E horse avenges death of the jav
V jav kills wounded archer & gets a slave
There is a stack of two horses next to Georgia. I’ll get one now & 1 next turn when he tries to cross the river
E sword kills horse
V sword kills archer near Georgia
Found Grant
Join worker to Missionary Ridge
Send workers toward Bull Run & Tecumseh to join

IBT
V AC comes out of fog & kills V sword in the forest. The V AC are going to be a problem. Doesn’t look like I’ll be on offense this set of turns.
Lancaster -> cat -> cat

Turn 2 270 AD
Move 3 cats in Lancaster toward Georgia
E horse kills wounded AV after bombardment. We get a leader & created the Army of the Cumberland. Based on T_McC’s comments about the FP not working in conquests, as well as the “build armies and pillage” theme of the game I built an ARMY. If we miss Sun Tzu (due in 7), you can all paddle me. Loaded two swords and a spear in the ARMY & sent him off the them North (after killing horse in forest that threatens our workers.
There is a gap in our borders between Georgia & Lancaster where there are roads in neutral territory. Enemy horsemen you think are out of move range of Lancaster are not. Please watch this closely. Same thing between Bedford and Augusta. This burned me once in a solo game.
I notice there is no * next to the sword that created the leader. In C3C can the same unit create more than one leader?
Horse near Georgia kills wounded horse
Bomb to redline IMW (Iroquois Mounted Warrior) near Augusta
Bomb and use sword to kill warrior in forest N of Augusta. Move pike + 2 cats to cover sword and send first workers to the chop. More will arrive soon after they finish their mines.
Sherman hires tax-babe so it won’t riot.
Army moves off hill, pillages, moves back onto hill. This move + pillage rocks! I can hear the groans from the American workers about having to road & mine all over again.

IBT
IMW kills spear (behind walls) in Georgia despite losing a point to bombardment.
I see lots of horse type units heading our way. We need sun Tzu to come in ASAP to upgrade some spears in Augusta & Georgia (all attacks are coming to these two cities)
Sherman – Horse – Horse
Palace gets a second story – despite all of our recent unit losses.

Turn 3 280 AD
Horse kills wounded IMW near Georgia
Americans are advancing archers towards Paducah (our silks). I’ll move a spear and sword over there.
We need LSU & Tecumseh to finish their builds to get us some units.
E horse from Bedford kills wounded IMW
Move 2 more cats under Pike in forest near Bedford
Join worker to Bull Run

IBT
Inca want to talk. No thanks
Missionary Ridge -> Pike -> Pike


Turn 4 290 AD
Extra cats arrive at Georgia
Horse + 2 archer next to Paducah. Another horse + archer 1 turn away.
Send jav from Lancaster to Paducah
Paducah – Sword attacks horse. Horse retreats. Sorry stupid play. Should have gone horse to horse, but then sword would have been exposed. Either way I guess I can only kill 1 unit.
Horse kills archer near Paducah. I think we will hold Paducah.
Jav kills archer after 2 for 8 bombard in Augusta. We get another slave.
Sword army attacks & kills a spear in an Aztec town that starts with an X near bananas. Army is yellow lined. :mad:
2 horses kill 2 archers near Georgia
2 horses kill 2 American horses near Georgia
Join 2 workers to LSU

IBT
Ottomans complete Sun Tzu
First Bedford chop is done. Next should go faster now that there is a stack in place
Chattanooga -> Temple –> Horse.
Lancaster Riots. My fault I borrowed a spear & should have seen it coming. Send horse from Paducah over.
Palace gate a third floor party lounge F11 reveals we are #1 in population & GNP. #2 in manufactured goods.

Turn 5 300 AD
American assault on Paducah has failed. They are retreating. Maybe I can pick off a couple of slaves.
MI kills wounded spear near Bedford
Jav kills archer
Workers move to next chop
Army of the North is 1 turn away from Iroquois horses

IBT
Manassas – aqueduct -> horse
Lincoln -> settler -> settler (going to T_McC red dot) This will fix a portion of our neutral land border problem :D

Turn 6 310 AD
Horse kills archer near Paducah
Horse kills AC that had attacked Georgia & retreated IBT
ARMY of Cumberland (wounded) reveals a huge patch of Iroquois Jungle. Sure to be rubber and coal in there somewhere.
Army kills archer on top of the Iroquois horses
Second forest cleared. We have a 1-turn stack now.

IBT
American Spear I could not kill last turn (horses were healing) pillages silks near Paducah (We have another silk hooked up). We can hold Paducah, but are short of counter attack units. I switched all the pike builds to horses.

Turn 7 320 AD
Paducah
Attack horse with sword – he retreats
Kill archer with horse from Georgia
Jav kills archer
Elite sword kills pillaging spear. We get a leader. Build Army (perhaps this one should block the Americans choke point 1 tile S of Boston & force them to make sea landings.
Bomb & kill spear next to Bedford
Paducah trades spear for horse with Lancaster
Army pillages Iroquois horses. F4 reveals he now has no horses. :D
The army is next to Iroquois capital. I plan to pillage all surrounding square to cut off all their deals with other civs.
Allegheny to the N in the jungle has silks.

IBT
We can now build the Pentagon
Just kidding about Sun Tzu. It’s in LSU ;)
LSU – Sun Tzu – Market
Sherman – Horse – Horse
Lancaster –> Cat -> Cat
Iroquois swords are coming into view

Turn 8 330 AD
Bomb horses next to Georgia. Get 3rd leader
Build pentagon in Lancaster
Horse kills spear near Bedford
Last chop at Bedford done. Now I’ll build roads.
Switch Sherman & Missionary Ridge to Pikes for our empty army.
Upgrade some spears to Pikes in front line and coastal cities. I’ll swap Pikes for javs in the front lines ASAP.

IBT
Spot Iroquois gems. I’ll head our army of the Cumberland that way to pillage them. The northern army is headed for the Ottoman horses.
Chattanooga -> horse -> pike
Montgomery – harbor – market
In the next 4 turns you get a pike from Missionary ridge, Chattanooga and Sherman. Use them for the empty Army replace Pikes

Turn 9 340 AD
Sword kills spear near Paducah after 0 for 2 bombard.
Bombard sword to red near Bedford. He still kills a horse (RNG payback for 3 leaders)
Bedford is out of horses. Can’t attack because I don’t know if there are horses in the fog.
Found Jonesboro
Jav kills archer near Georgia

IBT
Americans want to talk. No thanks
Heroic Epic completes

Turn 10 350 AD
Set Tecumseh to pike for the army
Sherman riots – hire clown. Sorry it’s late. Suggest we go to 5 turns next round
Lancaster -> Pentagon -> horse
Bomb spear to redlined near Bedford and he still kills a horse (RNG payback is a b**ch!)
MI takes out spear with 1 swing.
Empty army fortifies in Georgia
Workers move to last bit of forest near Georgia. Chop next turn.
All Jonesboro has is a horse + jav + cat. It needs a pike. Don’t see an extra anywhere.
Handy notices he just irrigated a tile in neutral territory. :crazyeye: Long term planning.
Shuffles
Send pike from Lancaster to Georgia in exchange for a horse.
Paducah sends a jav to Lancaster. Lancaster sends anther pike to Georgia.
Bedford trades sword for Pike with Augusta.
Paducah sends horse to Greebleyville for spear. Upgrade spear next turn, then swap horse for sword in Paducah.
After arrivals & upgrades next turn, Paducah, Georgia & Bedford will have 2 pikes each. Jonesboro is under defended. I upgraded spears to pikes in Shiloh for you to shuffle to Jonesboro. It will take 2 turns using Augusta as the way point.
Wounded sword army should heal on a mountain in neutral territoty after it reveals all the darkness.

Zip save 350 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350_AD.zip)

not zipped save 350 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350_AD.SAV)

350 AD

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350_AD_Pic_1.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350AD_pic2.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_350AD_pic3.JPG

Well, now I know where all our leaders were: They were just hangin' out :smoke:, waiting for Handy! :goodjob:

The AC seem to be a real pain, so I propose to take one of the armies and find Iznik (or maybe it's Izmit?), and kill every one that gets produced. Or take both armies and burn the city to the ground, to solve the problem once and for all.

You can also disconnect the Ivory, which might be easier at this point. Just this lurker's $0.02.

Actually, do AC require Ivory to be built or does just the Statue?

Originally posted by handy900
[B]
IBT
Ottomans complete Sun Tzu

IBT
We can now build the Pentagon
Just kidding about Sun Tzu. It’s in LSU ;)
LSU – Sun Tzu – Market


My god you had me going! I was thinking wow, a continent full of barracks vs a yellowlined sword army, nice trade-off. I t took 30 seconds to stop laughing when I read the good news. Nice one! :lol:

I am thinking of continuing my GOTM tonight and waiting for others to chime in on thoughts prior to going at it.
I know one thing: finding horse and iron to pillage is top priority. On the American choke at Boston. Isn't Boston the 3rd or 4th city on the list? If so then Washington and N.Y. and Philly? the only thing we'd be blocking. They obviously are not sending much of an SOD our way so I think having an Army patrolling Otto and his AC resources would be the better option. Thos ehave to shut down now! I would make a bee-line for horses. Forget the gems, roads. Get those horses, uncover the fog and then possibly park it on horses.
Another Army can go back and forth making sure Iroqois keep disconnected.

Just to clean up a few topics:

- Ancient Cavalry do not require any resources, so the only way to stop their production is to capture/raze the city. At 1 for every 5 turns, these are only an annoyance instead of a real threat.

- Just a reminder (since it seemed implied in a couple of posts), Military Great Leaders cannot rush Great Wonders. They can rush small wonders, hence we could rush The Pentagon but we could not have rushed Sun Tzu's

- Since we do have the Pentagon, the empty army can have 4 units placed in it. It seems premature to fill it now, but if we wanted to fill it before knights a mix of 2 pikes/2 MDI would seem a nice general purpose group.

- I think that we should go to a 5/10 rule for the next round (when we get back to Greebley). 5 turns expected, but if time permits (or we're primarily building infra and no one is attacking us) players may feel free to take 10 turns.

The tech pace in this game is extremely slow. If I recall what I saw correctly, we and the Ottos are (still) the only ones with Feudalism. We may have to consider building some libraries and self-researching even though we have the G.Lib. It may take until the 15th century for these clowns to discover Chivalry for us.

@Slinger - Wake up Dinky. He's fortified on the western peninsula.

Quote from Handy "F11 reveals we are #1 in population & GNP. #2 in manufactured goods."

If we can convert this into science we can really get moving on killing some cities. As soon as we can get to knights we should roll these clowns, provided we keep horses disconnected.

I'll look at having a few libs built during my turns and get those horsies/iron. BTW don't cats damage the ground in C3C so that the AI has to first repair and then road? Craters? Perhaps a cat in tow with army? then we would have more turns until they can get it reconnected, to go back and forth between civ cities keeping the pillage going.

Originally posted by barbslinger
BTW don't cats damage the ground in C3C so that the AI has to first repair and then road? Craters? Perhaps a cat in tow with army? then we would have more turns until they can get it reconnected, to go back and forth between civ cities keeping the pillage going.

I'm not sure whether cats can do that, or only the explosive projectile units can. I would lean against dragging a cat along with the army, as it would really slow the army down. If you fire the cat, the army has to end the turn in the same square it started in. Maybe more importantly on this map, cats cannot enter a jungle/marsh/mountain square that doesn't have a road built on it, and I think it would restrict the movement of the army too much.

A few things I thought of this morning:
Check & switch any cities still building barracks to another build. Perhaps 3c3 does this automatically, but next player should check.

Definitely advise against dragging a cat with the army. They slow you down, miss about 50% of the time, and can’t go through mountains or jungles without a road.

Americans sent only archers & horses. If you have a save, check to see if they have IRON. If not, we should focus on Iroquois & Ottoman pillaging, and save America for later.

Sorry I missed fortifies dinky. I assumed he sunk. I should have checked F3 more closely.

Army of the Cumberland (yellow swords) needs to heal a little, then pillage all tiles around Iroquois capital to kill any deals they have. After that can go for the gems, then check back on the horses to make sure they are not hooked back up.

Once we have pikes behind walls in our front, the Ancient Cavalry will not be near as much trouble. They only come every 5 turns.

On a few turns I forgot to set a scientist to research. :mad: Also, I think chivalry should be the goal over invention at this point.

Let’s build a couple of suicide galleys & look for the next continent. If we build up some gold, we can trade whoever we meet on the other continent for more contacts. It’s very possible the other civs are ahead in tech and have chivalry already. If we can get chivalry from across the sea well before the AI on our continent, we can roll them a lot quicker.

AI sent a lot of units that we killed. OTOH, we did not build a lot of units. I guess we need to decide if we want to go on offense now (if so build swords) or later (if so build horses for knight upgrade). Any cities we get now are going to be corrupt, so we are mostly after luxuries & leaders. I lean pretty heavily towards horses for a knight upgrade. I favor the knight’s retreat ability and extra attack power of 4. While we are waiting for chivalry we can pillage, kill AI units and leader fish using cats & horses from our front line cities. A couple of Knight armies would go a long way towards taking the continent.

Concur on Chivalry before Invention, then after Chivalry run the bottom branch of the tech tree to wipe out our continent. When we get to that point, we'll have to have a discussion about how many of our opponents are allowed to survive.

The Americans don't have Iron. The last time I checked (before Greebley's turn) the only civs with Iron were us and the Iroquois.

We shouldn't anticipate doing a mass upgrade from Horses to Knights, as in Conquests that upgrade will cost 120 gold per unit. :eek: At our current income level, we could only upgrade a unit every other turn. So my thought would be to research Monotheism --> Chivalry --> Engineering --> cash. The time spent researching Engineering can be used to build some knights from scratch, and the cash period to upgrade horses. (I figure ~16 horses for upgrade will occupy our income for a good period of time). We are currently researching Engineering, but the beakers we have put in shouldn't even amount to 1 turn of serious research, so we won't lose anything by switching targets.

I think we have another period of defense ahead of us, so I would preferentially build Pikes, so we can get our Swords/MDI/Javs off of defensive duty. We seem OK on catapults. If we did want to go on offense soon, a 4-MDI army would kick all kinds of ass. LSU pulls 20 spt, so an MDI every other turn. If I understand the rule of armies correctly, a 4-MDI group attacks at 6 and defends at 3 (with truncation, without it would be 6.75 and 3.33). So it would be a 16 HP cav with blitz ability. :devil2: And boy, is our first knight army going to be sweet.


From Handy:
Let’s build a couple of suicide galleys & look for the next continent. If we build up some gold, we can trade whoever we meet on the other continent for more contacts. It’s very possible the other civs are ahead in tech and have chivalry already. If we can get chivalry from across the sea well before the AI on our continent, we can roll them a lot quicker.

Remember, we are tactless. No trading at all. I also believe it is highly unlikely the other 2 civs (Rome and Carthage) are ahead of us technologically. If they were ahead of us in technology, they would have taken at least one Wonder during the late Ancient Age cascade. My guess is that this is a weird map, and I wouldn't be surprised to find them on separate islands, or together but fighting. I was alluding to this earlier in this post, but I fully expect them to be backwards when we find them. By keeping some crippled civs alive on our continent (particularly those whose last city is non-coastal :) ) we can keep the Romans and Carthage backwards.

I actually think it is to our disadvantage to go looking for them now. My thoughts are to rule our continent, then run the education branch to Magnetism. When we go searching for the other civs, we lead with a galleon with an army on board. Sort of a nice "how-do-you-do" for Caesar and Hanni. :D (This would mean not putting a 4th unit in the Jav or Sword armies).

I also wouldn't worry about anyone on our continent getting Chivalry. We and the Iro are the only ones who can use it, and we aren't going to let the Iro keep resources connected to build knights.

T_McC,

I like your plan. I had no idea the knight upgrade was so expensive in C3C. Let’s build a 4 unit MI army and start razing cities. We may want to bring a couple of pikes and any extra swords we have along also. The pikes can protect the army while it heals after battle. I’ve had red-lined wounded armies attacked by an AI in the past (never in ancient age, only later ages, but then again I usually don’t attack with armies in ancient age – just pillage).

This is a strange map. With so many civs on a continent, the other two may indeed each be on islands.

I’d keep building cats out of at least 1 city. AI stacks get larger as the game goes on, and cats keep the kill ratio where we want it. Also, I just have a soft spot for bombard units. They are (I think) the only unit that can:
1. Damage land and sea units,
2. destroy tile improvements,
3. can’t be “killed” in battle,
4. upgrade all game long.

I think it might not be a bad idea of holding off on the Pentagon. If we put in a 4th unit, they will become useless for pillaging the other continent until combustion and transports. I want to be able to ship them across when we find magnetism.

One thing that pillaging will do is really slow down the tech pace of the AI. In fact it is probably the most effective strategy for doing so. Setting up self research is not a bad idea. I think we should go for knights and then straight for Cav. The other possibility would be to go for Magnetism so we can send our armies across the seas and pillage there.

Do people prefer going to 5 turns each as a rule, or would people like to be able to choose between 5 and 10? I find 5 hard in that you don't have enough time to carry out your plans. On the other hand 10 can be very long. If you get a choice, then you can decide to continue for whatever reason if you so choose...or go short if time is limited or it is getting late.

I like the choice option, but what do the rest of you feel about this?

On your Sun Tzu prank you forgot to say that the computer switched LSU to build a spear. I was looking for that comment and ran across your next comment. You got me for a second there though:)

Rushing workers is completely valid way to reach size 1.

Ideas pulled from posts that I'll be doing. Please chime in if there are more.

-Sell barracks, change barracks builds.
-Wake up dinky to come home.
-Only 3 pikes in Army. Sending him to pillage.
-Build pikes, cats and libraries, markets.

On the tech path, I would like to get to Eng. Those bridges will really help getting units to the front. We seem to be ahead of everyone one and with the other continent most likely behind us we can wait a while for Chiv.I would like to push the sci-sli on eng in fact. We're gonna be the only ones that will have knights anyhow with the pillaging we're doing.
Once we have armies knocking out Otto, Iro resources and mines the units coming at us will slow down immensely. We can then go on offense. 20 turns maybe sooner. With out horses, iron we'll have to defend against archers and spears and whose afraid of that? I'll get two armies patrolling Otto and one to patrol Iro.
They're dead, all dead.

Alright, I guess we will have one more pillaging army (3 pikes). But I think the next leader should go to an offensive army, to kick start the conquest of our continent.

Starting self-research now would be fine. I'm torn between getting Chivalry before Engineering, or vice-versa. I can't make a compelling argument to get Chivalry first, and actually think we have an outside chance of Monotheism popping from the GL. The non-Ottoman civs have to be researching something, and the AI does tend to ignore Engineering. My fear here is that since Feudalism is now a gov't tech, that all the AI will prefer this, much the same as every AI goes for Nationalism first in the Industrial Age.

Besides river-crossing, Engineering does give us the three-bucket ... err... trim butcher ... err ... Trebuchet!

Greebley, I already rushed the Pentagon in Lancaster with the 3rd leader. Perhaps I shuld have made another army, but we already had one empty army, so I rushed it. I don't much like how C3C has limited the ability to rush with military leaders.

I agree it's a good idea to only put three units into an army so we can ship it overseas later.

I'm not sure we need to turn up the research slider. I like to hoard cash for upgrades during the GL period. I need more convincing. :)

I didn't think of that earlier but of course Otto and Iro are going to have Mono for us! That pretty much solidifies the Eng / Mono debate. River crossing, and throwbuckets of fire it is. For that matter we should let the AI pop chivalry for us too and continue to Invention > Gunpowder. I doubt we'll even get Eng on my watch tonight but we should discuss. I guess a lot depends when Rome, Carth comes calling. Speaking of which, a few more boats would help to get the army over there.

We can build the boats later. If we build them now they will gather dust in the harbor. Let's take the land.

That 5-3-1 unit would not be good in the wrong hands. It is 300 shields and we should start a prebuild once a civ has mono, or 10 turns after. Leos we could prebuild in a 12 shield city now (50turns) so it comes in when we get invention. I don't know how fast we can research techs right now, at work, but I will try to figure prebuild times.
I concur on the upgrades. Once upgraded though it's pick up the pace time.
On the boats I think we need at least 2. Also are we allowed to trade for WM when other civs come calling? How will we know where to sail to? This would be something Sherman would want, intel. No techs though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/tech1.jpg

Rome and Carthage won't be floating by until one of them gets Astronomy (or Navigation/Magnetism :eek: ), so I don't expect to see them soon.

@Handy - As for convincing that we should be doing our own research, check back through these turn logs and find the last time we got a tech from the GL. In the last 35 turns we have gotten 1 technology from the Great Library (Republic).

The unintended consequence of our AW/pillaging campaign has been to slow the tech pace to a crawl. There is a balance to be struck, but I'm just afraid that it may take ~100 turns for the AI to get around to discovering Chivalry.

What I figured we could do was this: research up to Engineering and Chivalry (3 techs), then go lone-scientist on the lower branch. We shouldn't have any need for Gunpowder against these guys, so we don't have to rush to any tech after Knights. We'll have all the tech we need, and all the cash we need to prosecute a successful offensive war. Remember, not only will we be the only ones with knights, we may also be the only ones with pikes. No one else on the continent having a steady supply of iron will make a knight campaign a blowout. Since we only need the three techs, I see no reason to wait on the AI. Let's take it to them, and maybe we can end the game before the Industrial Age.

What makes this game different from almost any other AW game is that we alone have a safe supply of Iron. And the AI will have a hard time holding on to horses as well. Certainly we have to take some turns to build up our defenses and our infrastructure, but we are already in somewhat uncharted waters for AW. We are in a dominant position at the dawn of the Medieval Era. We should be able to push research ourselves, and enter the Age of Chivalry on our terms, not the AI's. If we do, I strongly suspect most of our continent will not see even the possibility of Muskets.

Originally posted by barbslinger
That 5-3-1 unit would not be good in the wrong hands. It is 300 shields and we should start a prebuild once a civ has mono, or 10 turns after. Leos we could prebuild in a 12 shield city now (50turns) so it comes in when we get invention. I don't know how fast we can research techs right now, at work, but I will try to figure prebuild times.
I concur on the upgrades. Once upgraded though it's pick up the pace time.

If we are 1st to Chivalry, I don't think we will have any worries about the Knights Templar. Not sure whether it is more productive to build Leo's (losing the income for however many turns are required to research Invention), or just to get to Chivalry and then run lone scientist. We could do both, although Leo's would come in after the time for horse --> knight upgrades.

Originally posted by barbslinger
On the boats I think we need at least 2. Also are we allowed to trade for WM when other civs come calling? How will we know where to sail to? This would be something Sherman would want, intel. No techs though.

If I understand our variant correctly, no trading whatsoever. Also, one of us has to have Navigation to trade WM's. This game would take a sudden turn if Carthage or Rome took the tech lead from us. The chances of this occuring are multiplied greatly if we rely upon our continent to research for us as we destroy all their improvements.

Originally posted by T_McC

Also, one of us has to have Navigation to trade WM's. Oops forgot about the C3C change.

OK, so everyone has had to read my ramblings :sleep:

Most of that is medium- or long-term stuff. In the short term, I think a good strategy for Slinger's (and my) turns is to first settle our defensive situation, getting upgraded spears and fresh-built pikes to the frontlines, so we aren't in the position of having to use any 2-defense units as the primary defenders. Secondly, to maintain enough counter-attack capability (Swords/Javs/MDI/Horses) on the front lines to kill (almost) all units the AI sends at us each turn. If the first objective is accomplished, the second should sort of naturally fall out, especially since both benefit from artillery support. Third objective is to create a research infrastructure, so when we want to self-research, we can. I figure libraries in the core only is the most cost-effective way to do this, cities in the 2nd ring and beyond can keep building/rushing troops. By the end of my turn, the research situation should be much clearer. Hopefully the AI will be good for a tech on Slinger's turn.

I don't think there is any real benefit to finding the other civs, since if they are backwards, they will benefit much more from the contact than we will.

Apoligies for my missing in action. It has taken me way too long to realise that I just cant stick to SGs. I just totally forgot this was happening.

I'd re-join, but I think you'd rather have a more consitantly available player. No offence taken if you do.

Originally posted by T_McC
...
What I figured we could do was this: research up to Engineering and Chivalry (3 techs), then go lone-scientist on the lower branch. We shouldn't have any need for Gunpowder against these guys, so we don't have to rush to any tech after Knights. We'll have all the tech we need, and all the cash we need to prosecute a successful offensive war. Remember, not only will we be the only ones with knights, we may also be the only ones with pikes. No one else on the continent having a steady supply of iron will make a knight campaign a blowout. Since we only need the three techs, I see no reason to wait on the AI. Let's take it to them, and maybe we can end the game before the Industrial Age.

OK. I'm for it if you guys are. I like the sound of a knight blowout. :D This is the opposite of the Rome game where we had no Iron for the longest time.

I see chivalry as the more valuable, but either way is okay.
Originally posted by T_McC
...
What makes this game different from almost any other AW game is that we alone have a safe supply of Iron. And the AI will have a hard time holding on to horses as well. Certainly we have to take some turns to build up our defenses and our infrastructure, but we are already in somewhat uncharted waters for AW. We are in a dominant position at the dawn of the Medieval Era. We should be able to push research ourselves, and enter the Age of Chivalry on our terms, not the AI's. If we do, I strongly suspect most of our continent will not see even the possibility of Muskets.

I agree, I've never had seend this early dominance in an AW game. The ability of an army to pillage and move is a big plus versus PTW, and three early armies is quite nice. :D

Objectives –
Shore up defense through upgrades and builds with pikes and cats. Work on some much needed libraries. Get Dinky home.
Sell Barracks
Army pillage horses Iron.

350AD pre turn – Move Dinky. Was he glad to hear from me. F1 and need a taxman in Greebleyville who must of just grew, also Sherman had a clown that went to tax. Tecumseh Pike build is going to marketplace. Swapped a tile with Resaca so that it would come in 8 instead of 9. Resaca temple still in 3. Changed Savannah market in 8 to temple in 1. It only makes 6g – 3 clean golds due to corruption and the happiness is needed with growth due next turn and 3happy-3unhappy. Montgomery switched from market in 24 to temple in 14 so it can claim more tiles. Swapped Montgomery tile with Chatt so temple comes in 10. While doing that I notice that we have 7 mountains in our core that would produce 3 uncorrpted shields each but are not being worked. Also 2 hills undeveloped. Meanwhile we have a swarm of labor toiling to make mines in an area of 50% or more corruption. I’m moving a lot of these guys back to core. Montgomery, Chatt, Tecumseh and LSU are losing shields due to underdevelopment. Also in Grant and Paducah which are only getting 1 shield I made taxmen to stunt growth so we don’t get happiness trouble and generate income. Checked on sci-sli for engneering. It can be had in 11 at –8gpt. I’ll wait until upgrades are complete. I upgraded 6 spears to blow our cash down to 7g. We now make 81gpt.
Meanwhile on the warfront there are 3 archers, a warrior/settler and a spear. Two redlined swords are in view too. I think I’m set.
IT – An archer comes out of fog near Paducah, others move up. Near army of the Cumberland an AC is heading in. I might see him this turn but there is a lot of jungle there. We’re going to need a lot of slaves for that project.
Bull Run – Temple > Pike in 6
Savannah – Temple > Cat in 7

360 AD – turn 1
BedFor – Bomb warrior 2/2. MI in open gets 2 slaves from settler.
Near Georgia the cats go 2/2 and then I pause how to take out the guys when attacking across water. Will the horse make it back home? Move the horse out next to town and he can still attack. Well I hold off on that until I resolve the 2 archers trying to get through the middle. I slide 2 cats/Pike out on road from Augusta and they go 2/2 on archer. V Horse in open takes out sword losing 1hp.V Sword in Augusta gets a last kill losing 2hp. 5/5 horse from Lancaster takes out the 3/3 archer and the sword in worker guard stack takes out 1/3 archer. That completes the right side and now for the left side guys. Our 5/5 horse attacks 1/3 horse and GOES DOWN! That torques my shorts so I send the 5/5 jav and he gets 2nd shot kill. The other 5/5 horse takes out the 3/3 archer.
7-1
Workers complete chop near Georgia and I swap to Pike now due in 10. Can be rushed later if needed. Swap tiles on Bull run Pike to get it in 6 without losing shields. Now Shiloh will lose 1 shield on Market build and LSU none. MM’ing is a pain but I like to know in cities making 5+ shields that the last turn won’t end up only needing 1 to complete and wasting the rest. It really hurts in 10+ shield cities.
A few workers complete and migrate back to core.
Swapped Resaca temple to duct so it can grow and generate sea cash.
IT – 2 spear/settler pairs, a sword and a spear come out of fog. America drops a spear off on disconnected silks. They also BOMB Dinky and hit him from Washington.
Resaca – Duct > Temple
Missionary Ridge – Pike > Pike

370AD – turn 2
AofC (Army of Cumberland ) heads towards gems. Shermans 1st pillages his way to Otto horses.
Slide injured units back towards cities.
Paducah – Cats are 0/2 on recently dropped off spear. E horse goes 3-0.
Bed Forest – Cats 2/3. 3/4 horse kills spear and returns to BedFor. Upgrade a few more spears. Damn Ijust hit F3 and the game blipped off. Have to restart it. That is the 1st time I have even had any problem with CIV. Well all went the same except horse lost 2hp instead of 1. Back to F3 – Only spears left to upgrade are 3 in back lines that are MP. We can upgrade those later, so I rush the duct in Augusta 1 turn for 44g. Finally get to load a pike into army, other 2 pikes will load next turn. 9-1

IT – Aof C is exposing a lot of traffic coming down. 5 horses separated by 3 squares. Gonna have to shuffle some boys to Bedford.
LSU – Market > Pike in 2
Augusta – Aqueduct – Temple in 10. It’s 3-0-3 on its 6 citizens.

380AD – turn 3
5/5 horse kills 3/3 archer sneaking between Georgia and Paducah. That area will be trouble with all the water to cross if they send anything sizable.
Bedford – Cats go 2/4 on settler pair and 5/5 horse wins losing 3hp and CAN’T retreat. Must have been a shuffle. Whew, just loaded Army from Georgia and can cover. I may keep him here for a bit to do some emergency covering for the stack that’s coming towards Bedford. Now that I go back I see I can roll a couple cats out under Army and get a few shots off on targets that were previously out of reach. Damn, need a road. Next turn. 11-1
IT – Threats next turn are 2 American horses 2 tiles away from Georgia and 1 archer N of Georgia. Iro sword and archer step in front of Army and the 2 cats I have there not a real threat. A spear NE of BedForest.
Sherman – Temple > Horse in 5
Chatt – Horse > Market

390AD – turn 4
Pillagers- A of C gets a little ZOC on an archer taking 1 hp. 1st Div knocks out Otto gold and a mine. Horses are 2 turns away.
Bedford – Cats under Army bomb sword 2/2. 4/4 horse takes out 3/3 archer losing 2hp. Cats go 2/2 on NE spear and 4/4 MI wins losing 2.
Georgia – Cats are 2/2. 5/5 horse wins losing 0hp.
Paducah – Imove the 2 5/5 swords out to intercept settler pair.
Rushed temple in Bedford for 54g. We’re making 93gpt now. It was 74-76 when I started. Did America have horses before? They do now. 13-1
F1 shows Augusta thinking about rioting. Huh, nothing changed, or did I move a unit. I slid a unit in to fix that and rushed Shilohs market for 36g.
F4 – Otto has Mono but hasn’t traded it yet.
IT – 2 Amer horses sidle in E of Bedford and another is 2 tiles E. Injured Iro sword stays fortified and is still there. Aztec Archer is 2 tiles away. IMW comes out of fog along with 2 other spears and a settle pair.
Bedford – Temple > Pike in 30. Just realized the weed of rushing temple last turn. Sorry.
LSU – Pike – Pike in 2
Shiloh – Market > Horse in 5

400AD – turn 5
BedFor - Cats go 4/4 on horses and Army takes out one horse and bounces back to cover cats. That’s about it without risking anything. I blow the rest of cats and get3 more hits. 2 on archer and 1 on spear. Fortify the rest and stopped work on road under army. It may have to go offensive or retreat to city next turn depending on what shows up.
Paducah – 5/5 sword loses to spear. Shoot. They were getting ready to possibly plant a city. 5/5 sword kills spear losing 2hp and captures slaves. 14-2
Rushed Jonesboro walls for 56. Notice Georgia can grow again. Citizen eating again. Shiloh and Lancaster get taxmen. Sherman goes from clown to tax
IT – No attacks. More goodies coming in.
Bull Run – Pike > Pike in 3
Manassas – Horse > Cat in 7
Jonesboro – Walls > Temple.

410AD – turn 6
Didn’t see it get dropped off but there is an American spear standing next to Greebleyville defended with a sword. I’m bringing a horse just made up. He’ll pillage I think. I upgraded him to MI for offense next turn and sent the Pike from Lincoln to help support. All enemy troops are out of range. the Pike from Lincoln to help support. All enemy troops are out of range. No attacks by either side. This just in from the 1st Division located somewhere N of Bursa. Otto has no horses. 14-2
Rushed market in Tecumseh for 76g. Still no trades for Mono.
IT – 2ACs and a horse from Otto N of Bedford, Spear from America NW and a sword/IMW pull up and knock on W Bedfords door. 2 horses E of Jonesboro and 2 archers N of Georgia with an AC behind them. I guess this is where the game gets tougher. Funny that Ottos heavyweights show up the turn after I pillage the horses.
Tecumseh- Market > Med Inf in 3
LSU – Pike > Horse in 2
Lincoln – Settler for somebody later, sent to capital > Harbor in 30

420AD – turn 7
Bedford -Bomb the AC stack down to 1/4 and 2/4, horse to 3/4 , 4/4 MI kills sword losing 1 hp. 4/4 sword goes 2/2 on IMW and he runs away redlined. 4/4 horse takes on 2/4 AC and loses knocking 1 hp off him but then he gets a promotion. I haven’t seen a promotion yet this game. Heroic Epic my A$$. Army finishes off IMW and then covers sword. That takes care of Bedford. I also slide a pike from Augusta in to give it 3 pikes, an MDI and 8 cats.
Jonesboro – 5/5 horse kills 3/3 horse losing 2hp. 5/5 horse kills 3/3 horse losing 1hp.
Georgia – cats go 4/4 on archers. 5/5 jav kills unscratched. 5/5 horse kills losing 1 hp.
Grant – 4/4 MDI kills Spear that never pillaged unscratched.
7-1 here - 21-3 overall
A of Cumber settles on gems. 1st Div pillages and heads inland.to the heart of darkness to find ivory.
Triple shuffled a Pike from LSU to Augusta. Make it 4 pikes there. Finally got tired of Bedford starving 1 food at a time and rushed a worker for 32g. It was still 3 turns from getting down to 1 because they settled on a 3fpt.
IT – No attacks by AC but they are replaced with a pair of Otto horses. Two American horses and Archer move E of Georgia.
Bedford - worker > Cat in 20
Savannah – Cat > Cat

430AD – turn 8
There is an AC and a IMW 2 squares from Bedford. They are 3 offense so I want them. I roll 7 cats under army and only get 3 hits. Have to think about what to do now, was counting on better than 43%. Other cats in town get 1 / 2 hits on Otto horses. Sword redlines IMW and he runs off.
Georgia – Cats get 6/6 on 3 items. 5/5 sword wins unscratched. 5/5 jav wins losing 4hp. 5/5 horse wins losing 3hp
The 3 /4 AC gets a 4/4 horse from Jonesboro sic’ed on him and the horse pulls it off and jumps under Army after the kill. Nice. 25-3
IT – One attack at Bedford. 3-3 horse goes down with pike unscratched. Cat assisted. 26-3
LSU – Horse > Horse in 2
Bull Run – Pike > Pike in 3
Sherman – Horse > Horse in 5
Bedford expands. This settler pair still heading for fishing spot. Only one square left now.

440 – turn 9
Get cats back in city + injured. Bomb this pesky spear that is ready to pillage our horses down to 1/3. (We have 2 horse resources) . 3/4 MDI wins unscratched against spear S of Bedford. Army, unencumbered by cats goes after a 1/ 3 sword, DEAD, and the 1/ 3 IMW, DEAD and is still 13 /13. 3/4 horse takes out the 1/3 spear NE of Bedford. 5/5 horse kills the 1/3 spear/settler pair losing 2 hp. All are safe behind lines out of reach. 1st division army gets word that Otto has horses again. They pillage where they stand and then backtrack, but wait! Those aren’t connected. He’s traded. A of Cumberland reports all 2 gem sites are disconnected and Iro iron is just E. A mine on a mountain near LSU completes and now Sherman can make a horse in 4, 3s and 2g. MM’ed around a little. Rushing Resace temple for 72g and Augusta for 140g. 30-3
IBT – No Attacks, but more victims line up.
Tecumseh – MDI > Library in 5
Shiloh – Horse > Horse in 5
Resaca – Temple > Cat
Augusta – Temple > Pike in 6
Montgomery – Temple > Cat
Mission Ridge – Pike – Horse in 8

450AD – turn 10
2/10 on CATS! Oh well. 5/5 horse kills a 3/4 Chauqui Scout, a mighty 1.1.2 unit, losing 3 hp. Absurd. Get a retreat on another horse and then a 4/4 horse gets a kill losing 2 hp. 32-3
1st Div radios in to say horses are also spotted near Otto capital.

Summary – Not one promotion or, of course, a leader. 32 kills and 3 loses. Moved a large contingent of workers to core to finish it off a claim some shields, gold. Ottos other horse is nearby and we should alternate back and forth between the two, cutting off capital. Iros iron is Id’ed and when the Otto archer moves your right next to it for the kill. Maybe fortify on it and get your health back. Nah, take a spin to bust a little fog and then back to horses W of current location.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_450AD.SAV)


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman_450.jpg

Got it, and hopefully can play tonight.

Two things I noticed from the save:
(1) We are no longer 1st in land area. Either Carthage or Rome is winning their war. I believe this makes it more important to push the tech pace on our continent. We are still 1st in population.

(2) No tech popped from the G. Lib. on Slinger's turns. However, everybody except the Iro now have Feudalism. It seems my fear that all the AI would chase the now-governmental tech may have been well-founded. Hopefully they will now follow Osman to Mono, and we can get it closely timed with our completion of Engineering. I think that once Mono comes in, we need to go all-out on Chivalry and get back on the offensive.

Hey Gingerbread Man. One problem might be that you would be coming up every 2 days or so to play. This group has been moving pretty fast and some rounds have been completed in a single day. It sounds like the pace would be too intense, but if you wanted to give it a go, then that would be ok. My only request would be to tell us if you needed a skip. I leave it up to you on whether you would want to play at this intensity.



Remember - Don't put the 4th unit into armies as we will need to be able to ship them across the sea!

I have made this bold because it is fairly important for this varient and easy to do. Otherwise, we will have idle armies and Sherman will be nashing his teeth. We can add the 4th unit after the crossing.

I have been fighting the flu and haven't had as much time to post, but I do agree with the general plan. Getting chivalry will also be big because we will be able to have speed 3 armies!

[Edit: I would also be interested in how armies heal now. It seemed fast to me. Try resting an army and recording how many hp it heals. For example, rest the yellow lined one and see how many it heals in enemy territory]

I think we need to up the rate also. We can get eng in 8-10 turns and then chivalry is even cheaper. Again, they won't have horses then so no worries. Need some prebuilds going very soon for both Leo's and KofT. Will look for to 5 turns next round. Those took 8 hours.

I'm torn on building either Knights Templar or Leonardo's, because it would mean tying up our two largest shield producers (Tecumseh and LSU) for about 20 turns each.

On each wonder:
Knights Templar - Easy to build, as we would simply swap LSU to the Palace once Monotheism comes in. We'd have to push it to get Engineering + Chivalry in 15 turns, but certainly is doable. It is also no big deal to put 400 shields into the wonder rather than 300. Pro to building the wonder are, (1) Better us than them, although these units in a trickle aren't that scary, (2) Very nice units to top off armies comprised of move-1 units. Con is that instead of the wonder, LSU could build 8-10 other units.

I'd lean building this one, as we'll certainly get more than 8-10 Crusaders out of the wonder before it expires, and before Chivalry we don't have that pressing a need for offensive units.

Leonardo's - This one is trickier. We will want to build it, but do we want to do this right away? Horse --> Knight upgrades cost 120 gold, so at our current income level we could upgrade 2 every 3 turns. With Leo's, we could do 1+ every turn. The cost to get Invention immediately after Chivalry would be about 10 turns income. So we would have to delay our offensive by 10 turns, and forego upgrading about 7 horses. We would regain those upgrades in another 10 turns post-Leo. At 600 shields, we would also forego 3-4 knights that the wonder city could build in the time post-Chivalry. We essentially only need the wonder for the Horse --> Knight upgrade, as the Knight --> Cavalry upgrade is only 30 gold even without Leo's, and I can't see a mass upgrade of pikes to muskets in our future. We'll have ~20 horses to upgrade, so we'd save ~1200 gold with it. If we can research Invention in 10-12 turns, we would lose 1000-1200 gold relative to lone scientist. We also have an opportunity cost of ~10 turns delay on our initial attack + whatever units the wonder city could have built. But we do have the additional benefit of other half-cost upgrades, and the better us than them factor. Can you see why I say this is tricky?

The final decision won't come up on my turns, but what I can do if Monotheism comes in is to switch Tecumseh to the Sistine Chapel (intended for Knights Templar) and LSU to the Palace (intended for Leonardo's). Things shouldn't get so far along that it would be painful to switch over to other projects.

Get a 10 shield city and switch now to palace. Then sistines when mono comes in. It should still make the intended goal. Also as soon as we cut horses and iron the civs will be sending archer, spear brigades due to arrive in about 15 turns. Thats how many turns I figure it takes them to slog over. I don't think we will need the increased military production. I was even feeling ready to get some more libraries during my turns. I was 32-3 with only 1-2 actual attacks on cities. Once eng comes in that will improve and getting some roads out in front of Bedford will help too. I weeded that one. You can use the Army to run interference.

Nice job barbslinger :goodjob:

With two armies in the lands of the Ottomans & Iroquois their production is toast.


I would also be interested in how armies heal now. It seemed fast to me. Try resting an army and recording how many hp it heals. For example, rest the yellow lined one and see how many it heals in enemy territory]

Armies heal much faster (in a barracks city). I'm playing a solo c3c now and my cav army healed in (I think) 1 turn in a barracks. :D
The only reason I'm not positive is that I wasn't expecting so quick a heal. Perhaps it was two turns. At any rate, it was much faster than PTW.

I hope they patch the FP in c3c back to the way it is in PTW, there is a lot to like about c3c.

Ya, I do know that units heal very fast in our own cities as you say(I think I saw 50% without barracks for example). I am less sure about field conditions.

1st Div - I would run a CCW loop around the capital disconnecting. 4-5 turns. Then check on horses in Bursa. If still unconnected and no worker I would head east to bust fog and possibly get to gems in NE corner in mountains. Use him to continually disconnect capital and horses.

Army of Cumberland - Get iron. If Otto archer stays put on Iron, fortify to heal and then kill him. After disconnecting Iron I would run up to Inca Cuzco to disconnect.

3Pike army (not named yet) - Run interference and use as last kill on redlined units. You can take out two of them at a time. It can also be used to put cats under to get 2 groups of shots prior to them arriving at Bedford. Possibly get Bedford roaded.

Hopefully we'll pop another army soon that can pillage Aztec / American/ Iro to soften them up prior to conquest. Speaking of which, we may want to get a load of settler/pikes going and re dot map the Aztec area in preparation for Palace in Georgia. Then we can just raze most cities and put cities in a better pattern, especially Atlanta. FP in LSU and we are set.

I neglected the roading in Bedford but there was quite a bit of activity there and I got workers back to core to beef up shield output. I might think about getting some more javs to front lines for slaves.

Workers need to finish off mountain mines so we have better MM opportunities in core to waste less shields. My turns took 8 hours due to running calcs to reduce waste. The city by the mountains, Montgomery?, can kick some a$$ with the city next to it if the mountains all have mines.

I have some extra taxpayers going in Paducah I think. I was slowing growth to get 2 extra gold. You'll see the gold corruption works out better that way. Once we get the 1.10 patch to fix FP we can grow it rather quickly.

All in all, the AI is not really threatening us yet and that looks to diminish even more after we pillage. Once Knights kick in, "All your lands are mine", and we should be able to quickly take Aztecs, America and Iro in a rout.

@Greebly - If you still have the Dutch start in Amsterdam I would like to try it. I was perusing the starts and it said it would be the toughest so I want to give it a go.

GR2 - 550 AD

450 AD (0)
Swap tiles so Tecumseh Library completes in 4 instead of 5. LSU swapped to MDI, need 3rd MP and at 20 spt, this is a wasteful place to build horses. Missionary Ridge swapped to Temple, lots of good tiles to pull in. Jonesboro switched to catapult, city doesn't really gain anything from Temple. Georgia swaps from Temple to pike. Lancaster swapped from Temple to Courthouse, I think reduction in corruption will yield happy face anyway. Shiloh switched from horse to pike, I'll need a couple for the city I plan to found with the active settler. Swap a few tiles around and put a couple of citizens back to work. Swap Lincoln to settler, as we could always use one of these. Upgrade two non-elite swords on front line to MDI. Hit American horse twice with cats and kill with elite Jav. [1(1)-0] {Format [wins(elite)-losses]}

General plan is to turn on research on turn 5, by which time our two biggest cities will have built libraries. Hope Monotheism comes out of the Great Library. I would like to found a city, and will go on the offensive if I can score another army. Per discussions on the board, I agree that the best strategy for building Leonardo's is to start a pre-build early on my turns in a medium-shield city. Once we have Mono and Engineering, LSU can be switched to a placeholder for the Knights Templar. Ideally, the pre-build city should be capable of 15 shields a turn, as Leo's starts to drop dramatically in value for every turn after Chivalry it is built. I believe the primary utility of Leo's to us is the Horse-Knight upgrade, so we need it very quickly after Chivalry. I choose Bull Run for the Leo's pre-build.

I do disagree with something posted on the board, and will not be anxious to attack anything that is not defense 1 with the pike army.

Start moving settler towards the front.

All that was just the pre-turn.

IT - Lots of troop movement, including a couple of AC.

460 AD (1)
Won't bother listing most city builds. Bomb Iro archer with 2 cat shots, kill with horse. All units left hiding under pike army. Army of Cumberland fortified on mountain, starts with 6 hp. [2(1)-0]

Take the opportunity to christen the unknown army. :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Handy_Small.JPG


IT - Ottos threaten BedFor, otherwise lots of running around.

470 AD (2)
Bull Run: Pike --> Palace. Will need 3rd MP and some tile swapping to be most effective, should be able to get to that by the end of my turn. Throw a bunch of rocks. Elite Sword defeats Aztec archer. Elite Jav does likewise, and generates a slave. Elite Horse def. reg Otto horse, again, then kill AC. Vet Horse and Vet MDI also kill horses. Handymen kill injured Inca(?) horse. [9(6)-0]. Army of Cumberland now has 9 hp, will start moving again on next turn.
@Greebley - To answer your question, it appears armies heal 3 hp per turn in enemy territory. This gain was consistent throughout my turn.

IT - Screwed up and unnecessarily lost two pikes outside of BedFor. :mad: [9(6)-2]

480 AD (3)
American settler/spear pair are wandering around on the west coast. Kill Otto archer with elite Horse. Upgrade 3 swords to MDI. Army of the Cumberland is surrounded, and has to stay on the mountain. Rush Pike in BedFor. Couple of boats wandering around the SW. We have enough units down there to cover it. [10(7)-2]

IT - Nothin'

490 AD (4)
Bomb and kill Otto Archer with elite Horse. Bomb and enslave Aztec spear. Rename Horse that has already produced a leader, so as to select it last when the need arises. Make that two horses. Bomb and kill American archer with Vet Horse. Bomb and kill American spear with elite Jav, capture two slaves. Enslave Chasqui with Army. [15(10)-2]

IT - Boats keep moving, want to get a couple of MDI down to the iron to capture slaves.

500 AD (5)
Bomb down Iro sword pair, kill with MDI and elite Horse. Start northern army back towards Istanbul (with slave in tow). We have 404 gold, research to 70%, Engineering in 8 at -32 gpt. [17(11)-2]

IT - Nothin'

510 AD (6)
Three victories, two slaves. Getting stack set up to found new city. Take a fresh look at MM. Finally got the Iro iron. Engineering due in 7 at -30 gpt. [20(12)-2]

IT - Two AC threaten BedFor. Have units from 5 nations near BedFor. ;)

520 AD (7)
Scratch two AC, two archers. Kill AC in Otto-land with Jav army and generate a slave. [25(13)-2]

IT - Ottos approach BedFor with another AC.

530 AD (8)
Gong American archer and kill with elite Jav. Bomb and kill American spear with MDI. Kill AC, Otto horse, Iro Sword around BedFor. Dinky successfully circumnavigates the continent. Heh, when you sentry a slave, he raises his shovel to a combat position. Chicago has Iron, and is defended by a regular pike. [30(14)-2]

IT - Abe has horses! The Handy Men will have to do something about that.

540 AD (9)
Kill two Iro swords, getting my first promotion on 33 victories this round. Also win with an elite Jav. Found Little Roundtop SW of Georgia. Good spot after Engineering, a bit vulnerable now. It does force Chicago into our settlement pattern. Initial garrison is a grab-bag: 1 MDI, 1 Pike, 1 Cat, 1 Jav. Walls are ordered, and will be chop assisted. There is a second Pike defending three slaves. A fresh settler is present in Lancaster. Dinky is disbanded. :( [33(15)-2]

IT - Two American horses run past our front-lines. Sound strategy. Still going to get killed, but at least that's showing a little thought.

550 AD (10)
Ping-pong bombardments, and then this happens ... (whoops, no pic :blush: ) The leader forms another army :D
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Greebley_Small.JPG

( :mad: THAT'S THE WRONG WAR! :mad: )

The Boys will be left empty in Augusta.

Then I promote an MDI and capture two more Ottoman slaves. Kill American horse with another elite Horse. Javelin the other horse. Pillage a little more, and that's it.

Final Tally: 37 wins - 2 losses. And the losses wouldn't have happened if I hadn't moved the Handymen before finishing combat around BedFor. I do not believe there are any active AC.

Engineering is due in 3, we have 252 gold and we are running break-even. There are two slaves fortified in the forest in Ottoman territory. I think they have to be disbanded, as they slow the army down too much. We have enough loose MDI to fill the Boys and go on a killing spree.

As always, the AI were completely useless for technology.

P.S. Apologies to our other team member. If I had gotten another leader, I certainly would have formed Barb's Slingers. :) :lol: :)

Sherman in 550 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_550_AD.zip)

Well, I think I'll just watch this one. I may come back to SGs in another month.

In the meanwhile, I'll be watching this space.

Love the Army names! Great luck you had on leaders! Maybe it carried over from my lack of no promotions or leaders. Looks like we're off to the races! Did you get a feeling the AIis inept at having a chance to get Bedford. Perhaps if they snuck an SOD around the fog to Paducah they would have a chance. :lol: Bridges coming up. That will help.
According to my C3C chart Chivalry is listed as a 32 cost while Eng was a 36 cost, so I'm thinking with the libraries we have and perhaps some you may have started we could possibly bag it in 10 turns or less. Wow, still no mono from GL though!:rolleyes: I think the AI abandons infrastucture for military builds so they may end up in our dust.
Looks like Greebley may get to annex some more Aztec land. Also, how did the 1st Div do? Both horses out of commission I assume.
Sorry about the builds when you got it. It was 8am after an all nighter and I just put them on something. The 20 shield horse was weed though. I only looked at Pike in 2 to get them up there to the front. Now that we are fairly stable I'm glad you spotted it.
How about Slinger's Slaughter Boys.;)

Well done Barbslinger and T_McC. :goodjob:

I like the army names. :D

Did someone mention a 1.10 C3C patch. Is is going to put RCP and the FP back the way is was in PTW? edit I found the news on the new patch coming out before Christmas.

FYI - I came across a nice reference guide this morning. I posted the link below.

19 page Word Reference Dcoument for C3C (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70722)

Originally posted by barbslinger
Love the Army names!

:blush:

Originally posted by barbslinger
Did you get a feeling the AI is inept at having a chance to get Bedford. Perhaps if they snuck an SOD around the fog to Paducah they would have a chance.

Yeah, on my turn the AI was on the offensive end of a battle 2 of 39 times. I never had a city attacked, as the AI (especially the Ottomans) always had their two move units end the turn next to BedFor, rather than move forward 1 square, and attack the next turn. Biggest threat came when there were 3 AC adjacent to BedFor on the same turn, but that turn ended with 4 dead AC, as the northern army caught one right after it had been produced.

Paducah is no longer on the front. I founded Little Roundtop between it and Chicago. I feel the best route for conquest is to go CCW starting with Chicago, so we don't have to wade through all the units being send by the northern civs.

Originally posted by barbslinger
... so I'm thinking with the libraries we have and perhaps some you may have started we could possibly bag it in 10 turns or less. Wow, still no mono from GL though!

I'm afraid we will have to research Mono ourselves. This is factored in to the pre-build time (I believe we have 38 turns to go on the Palace). Unless the Aztecs have gotten some workers out, they and the Iro have been "picked clean" by our armies. There were no visible improvements in their lands by the end of my turn.

The armies didn't do quite what you had planned. The sword army got stuck around the Iro iron and I got a little impatient with watching the Ottos march troops down the roads in their territory. So the northern army took a detour south, and started disconnecting roads down there. That army is currently marauding Inca territory, and the sword army has completed operations around the Iroquois and is heading north. Combined they can wipe out the northern half of the continent, while the Handymen watch the Iro horses.

Originally posted by barbslinger
Sorry about the builds when you got it. ... The 20 shield horse was weed though. I only looked at Pike in 2 to get them up there to the front.
Nothing that weedy about the builds, mostly differences in personal preferences. LSU (and now Tecumseh) making 20 spt is rather awkward in this era. The only units to build that are not terribly wasteful are MDI and cats, and we don't have a pressing need for cats. On my turns LSU build MDI-->Library-->Courthouse-->start MDI. The courthouse allowed us to swap some tiles with Bull Run, to give the pre-build city 14 spt after corruption, and maintain LSU at 20 spt. Greebley will have to take a look, but I don't believe either LSU or Tecumseh can possibly get to 30 spt, or productively drop to 15 spt, so we're likely going to get some 40 shield pikes and horses. If we are committed to building pikes/horses it is certainly possible to get the two cities down to 17-18 shields and give a couple of shields to neighboring cities. Most of my turn was spent on projects where 20 vs. 18 meant saving a turn of production, so I'm not sure exactly what is possible/profitable.

@Greebley - Had the leader come early on my turns, I was going to form a 3-MDI army and go on the offensive. Now you get to choose what to do with the Boys. One thing to be aware of: We are just about at our support limit for armies. I believe the rule is 1 army for every 5 cities, but I can't remember whether that calculation involves rounding or truncation or what. (i.e. How many cities do we need for a 5th army? 21, 23, or 25?) So don't be shocked if you pop a leader and can't form an army with him.

... I believe the rule is 1 army for every 5 cities

It's 1 army for every 4 cities in PTW. I do not believe it changed in c3c. I'll check & post back.

editCivilopedia for c3c says 4 cities per army.

Ok, I got it.

I tried playing a game yesterday and it was terrible. I was trying to bombard a Roman legion and instead of bombarding the legion, I bombarded the square I wanted to move to :rolleyes: I think it was a factor of me getting over the Flu. Hopefully, I can do better here.

Ok, Gingerbread Man. Maybe we will play some other game together in the future. The history of Sherman was useful so you did contribute :)

Preturn:
Things looked pretty good. Didn't change anything.

IBT: Normal troop movement
LSU: MDI->MDI
Odd - Shiloh riots. I could have sworn it was ok.

560AD: Army attacks an archer up north.

A bit of a lull on attacks this turn.

IBT: Ottomans would like to talk. Nope
Iroquois would like to talk. Nope
Tecumseh: Pike->Pike
Shiloh: Pike->Horseman
Sherman: Pike->Library
Lancaster: Pike->MDI
Missionary Ridge: Temple->Harbor

570 AD: Used the army with 3 pikes.

Bombardment
Horse vs Archer wins.
MDI vs Archer wins.
E Jav vs injured sword wins
MDI vs Horse wins
Horse vs Horse promotes to Elite
Horse vs Horse wins

IBT: Ancient Cav attacks a Pike and wins, spear/settler dropped off near our S iron.

LSU: MDI->MDI
Manassas: Pike->Tree-Bucket
Pudacah: Temple->Courthouse

580 AD:
Update some Catapults. Lower science to 40% so as to get more money. Mono theism in 12
Unit costs are high for our economy (40 gpt) and we still have settleable spots.. Going to build some more towns I think. Change a few outlying towns with limited growth to settlers.

Bombard and kill the ancient Cav
Bombard spear guarding settler
R MDI attacks spear and loses
V MDI attacks spear and wins.

IBT: A few archer come within range
Tecumseh: Pike->MDI

590 AD: Bombardment (the Tree-Buckets go for the spears).
Kill Spear with MDI
Kill Archer with MDI
Kill Spear with Horse
Kill Archer with Horse.

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Savannah: Pike->Market

600 AD: Upgrade another catapult

More bombardment
MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vsArcher wins
MDI vsArcher wins
MDI vs Archer wins
MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vs Archer wins, but is in danger. My bad - there was a fogged square.

IBT: Swordsman kills our Horse.
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Chattanooga: Market->Harbor

610 AD:
Bombardment
Jav vs Jag Warrior wins and gets slave
Switch Grant to a temple

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Miss that Sherman is unhappy
Montgomery: Library->Market
Ottomans are building Sistine. And we have to research Monotheism. Ugh! Sounds like we need to concentrate pillage on the Ottomen.

620 AD:
Checking Diplo: Aztecs have Mono. Will turn off research this round...
Pillage Ottoman Horses
Moving some units toward Chicago.

MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vs Archer wins
MDI vs Sword wins
Horse vs Archer wins

IBT: GLib gives us Mono - switch to Chivalry in ----
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Shiloh: Horse->Horse
Lincoln: Settler->Aquaduct
Missionary Ridge: Settler->Aquaduct

630 AD:
Bombardment
MDI vs Chasqui Scout - Scout retreats
Horse vs C. Scout wins
Horse vs Spear wins.
Chivalry in 11.

Attack on Chicago:
MDI vs Pike wins
MDI vs Spear wins and takes the town.

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Ottomans are building Sistine again.

640 AD:
R MDI vs Horse wins
Decide to attack MDI vs Archer (some risk, but I plan to cover with a pike). Get Leader - Ok this may be stupid but I am going to build the FP in Georgia. It will reduce distance corruption. It may have a temporary hit on our cash though until we get markets near it.
MDI nearly loses to 1 hp Spear.
V Horse vs 2 hp Spear loses.

IBT:
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Georgia: FP->Market
Jonesboro: Tree-Bucket->Marketplace
Chicago riots.

650 AD: Not too bad - The FP got us +2 gold. Woot! This will improve as we get MarketPlaces and libraries up. This matches my previous experience. Building the FP adds a slight improvement - the rank corruption remains the same - the distance corruption improves. I am guessing a 10% to 20% improvement once we get Market places.

Build new town of Bushwacker Valley.

Notes:
The settler near Manassas, I was sending to the very tip our peninsula. It will get 2 whales, and an iron. and can make a decent fishing village. It will want a harbor and an aquaduct first I think and will make us a bit of money. More important, every town is 2 gpt (becoming 4 when reaching size 7).

We should work on more towns if we can. Most of our cash is going to unit support. Also aquaducts are 1/2 price for us and double the unit support for the town and so may be worth it.

I also have another settler circled in the picture below. I was going to settle where it is now, but I am not sure about that. Maybe going for Tlaxcala would be good? You decide Handy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD650.jpg

I am not sure I followed all the advise that was given. If I missed anything, point it out to the next player. Not alot happened on my turns so I took 10. Feel free to go for 5 if 10 is taking too long!

An image of the pillaging. Remember that the roads will be rebuilt so after everything appears to be pillaged, go back to areas that haven't been visited recently.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD650-Pillage.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_650_AD.zip)

An FP! I knew it still worked if placed far enough away. My test before was 13 tiles away and though I'm no corruption expert I saw a marked improvement. It will be better.
On the settler near Georgia, I go back to a previous post I made thinking we should dot map Aztec lands to make best use of what we're going to have. Raze and replace or keep. I'm thinking once Chivalry comes in we will have options.
How is the Knights Templar going? I see no mention.
Is the AC wonder giving Otto 1 every 5 turns out of each city? How is he fielding 3-4 at a time? If it is that is one powerful wonder in the right hands.

Good job. We look to be in most excellent shape. :)

I got it , and I'll try to play tonight.

Greebley, I :love: your settler location. 2 tiles from 3 cities, and near tiles from Tlaxacala.

If I get to take Tlaxacala, I'll probably keep it short term. We can decide what to do with it later after Greebley & T_McC get "dot map part deaux" finished. :D

Looks like the Ottomans have had a few roads pillaged. I'll keep pillaging and checking to mak sure resoursed are not hooked back up.

Good to see an FP that works in c3c. :goodjob:

If Handy hasn't played yet:

After your 2nd turn, you can switch LSU to a Cathedral to pre-build for Knights Templar. Greebley couldn't start it due to no pre-build being available, as Bull Run is using the Palace. My earlier rantings assumed that the Sistine Chapel came with Monotheism.

An FP is a good use of the leader, but we are suffering extra corruption in some (previously) core cities. I expect that to go away when the patch comes out. Unfortunately, Greebley was working with an original erroneous conjecture. The buggy FP does reduce distance corruption for cities in its vicinity, but can dramatically increase rank corruption, as the cities near the Palace now are effectively ranked 1, 3, 5, 7, ... rather than 1, 2, 3, 4, ... (The FP cities got the even slots). Bottom line is that until the patch, you don't get a larger number of useful cities by building an FP, you just change the identity of the useful cities. Everything that is not 1st ring to either the Palace or FP got less useful.

Just to have some statistical evidence, I compared corruption in my last save to corruption in 650 AD.

Before
From Cities, 84 of 241 corruption: 34.9%
Bull Run (Between 1st and 2nd ring to Palace, Leonardo's) can use 14 of 17 shields
Shiloh (2nd ring to Palace) can use 5 of 9 shields
Savannah (2nd ring to Palace) can use 5 of 9 shields

After
From Cities, 90 of 268 corruption: 33.6%
Bull Run can use 14 of 19 shields (lost at least 1, probably 2)
Shiloh and Savannah now can only use 2 of 9 shields (each lost 3)

So no, the FP really doesn't work. We didn't lose money by building the FP, but what we effectively did was dump the corruption near Georgia (the very outlying cities) into the cities 2nd-ring to our Palace. The cities 2nd ring to the FP won't have gotten worse, since they were lousy to begin with.

-----
No dot-map right now ('cause I think I'll cross-post with Handy's turns), but where the settler currently stands is not on the river, so I might move him 1 NW to the hill. That is still not on the river, but does give Georgia some more room to grow. The hill is still within three tiles of Chicago (and Little Roundtop), and gets the defensive bonus.

Tlaxcala should burn, and a city might be founded 1 E of Tlaxcala, on a floodplain. Xochicalco is in an awful location, and should be replaced with a city 1 NW, on the river-plains tile. One more city could then be founded on the desert tile between the Oases.

But it also increases the rank near the FP. So it comes out the same - so ya Bull Run has more corruption, but the ones near the FP have less. The rank corruption is identical to what it was before. The distance corruption is better. So the net result is better.


Or to state it another way, before the ranks went:

Palace, closest to Palace, next closest to palace, ....

Now it goes
Palace, FP, closest to palace, closest to FP. ....

So we have just moved which cities are the best around.

We take a small short term hit until we get the land around georgia and its cities improved. Once the land is improved, then we will get a bigger benefit.

As I said, we gained 2 gold even though we moved corruption from cities with market places to cities without. Distance corruption is by no means insignificant.

OK. Regardless of what my previous post sounded like, I believe rushing the FP in Georgia was the correct move. Even with the bug, in the medium- to long-term we will derive a benefit from the FP, as all of our low-rank cities will also have low distance corruption. In the short-term, it points to Palace core producing troops (we are almost done with infrastructure there), FP core building infra, and the cities 2nd ring to the Palace building settlers and the odd military unit. Once the patch comes out we will see a major improvement in our economy.

One other thing to consider:
If I understand the bug correctly, and one has an empire of 16 cities where 1 is the Palace, 1 is the FP, 5 are closer to the FP, and 9 are closer to the Palace, cities #8 and 9 on the closest-to-palace list will be assigned ranks of 17 and 19 for corruption. Higher than the actual total # of cities. With the shape of our empire, I believe we are seeing some of that.

All a moot point once the patch comes out, building the FP now just forces us to be more pro-active about developing the FP core. And that's probably a good thing. One or two shields/turn is not going to make a difference in whether we get Leo's or not.

Hi team. RL blindsided me this weekend and I wound up working Saturday & sunday more than I hoped or expected. I'm too tired to play, and have to now go out of town. Please skip me until I get back on Saturday 12-20-03. Ugh, an all weekender and now a week long trip. :(

Agreed. I wonder if we really know if the order is strictly alternating. If I had to guess - the fix was to put all cities in the list rather than just the palace list like it was before. This is a "natural" way to fix it. The distance that is sorted by is the closer of the palace and the FP.

So say before the program calculated the number of cities less than distance 1 from the palace, less than distance 2 from the palace, less than distance 3 from the palace, etc. and used that as the rank for distance 1, 2, 3, etc.

The new could be the same thing only caculate the number of cities less than or equal to the palace or the FP . So the number of cities distance 1 or less from the palace or the FP, the number of cities distance 2 or less from the palace, etc. for distance 1, 2, ect.

This makes sense from a programmers standpoint and I can easily see a programmer who maybe hasn't played the game all that much doing exactly that

Barbslinger,
That means you are up. Play 5 or 10 turns as you choose. My turns went quickly, but things could change.

Sorry about that. I just looked up one more post. I GOT IT. Will play tonight around 10pm. I had to come into work for a few hours to get ready for next week.
On the settler, I really don't know what to do with him but will look for another spot on the Georgia ring that Monte already made for us. Tlax looks good to me with 2 flood plains and all the hills/mountains. I take it we are doing a tight build around Georgia too? I'll probably spend the 1st half hour planning a dot map. I think we are getting to a point where in 20 turns we can start cleaning up the continent. That jungle will be a pain to clear tiles. After we get this 2nd core up we should get moving up there to get the dyes? and surely gems. Knights soon! Can't wait.

Here's my take on a northern dot map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_NthrDtMp.JPG

All but the northern blue dot are within three tiles of at least two cities. The two Aztec cities pictured would be razed. The yellow dot is "optional", as Tlacopan is an equally valid location. In fact, I prefer Tlacopan to the yellow dot. The one advantage yellow dot has is to be three squares from the northern blue dot. Catttargus would then be kept, rather than razed. I believe this dot-map claims every land tile in the picture except for 1. We're also getting 6 cities where the Aztecs have 3.

The settler is under the pike in the picture. The American stack includes a settler as well.

The dot map looks good to me. Only real reason to keep a foreign city in that area is if it has a wonder that is still active. I didn't check that, but I am dubious these cities would have one.

This is going to be "core" territory so placement is more important here, but as we get to more corrupt areas, remember a slightly tighter build means more unit support. Not sure if that matters much, but it is worth remembering. River sites are higher priority because you get more support for size 7+ cities.

[Edit: Barbslinger, I agree new Lux are high priority if we can get them.]

Objectives –
Kick butt

650AD pre turn – I see a couple entertainers that go to taxmen. Grant has walls due in 1 but it is already behind the frontlines and at pop6 needs a duct and courthouse to grow and a temple to get off the entertainer it has there. Switch to temple. Bedford need a marketplace before the duct or it will go unhappy. Sold all the barracks pre-SZ for around 90g. Looked into MM. Shiloh I’m going to courthouse in 24. Giving up 1 shield is Bull Run prebuild. It looks like we may nearly already have 200 for Knights of Templar. We have 225 already so pulled a citizen working mines to give it to a more needy city. With the extra cash I’m going to get chivalry in 6 at a –29gpt deficit. Bull run will still get KoT in 1 when we switch.
I see the workers planting forest on the tundra. I‘ve never used that trick. Chop for shields and then replant for 2 shields. Nice!

IT – More troops coming but nothing serious.
LSU – Horse > Cath prebuild
Sherman – Lib > Colliseum prebuild for KNIGHT – yippee!
Otto is building Sistines. I think he is trying to take out our Great Library.

660AD – turn 1
Bedfor – There is a stack standing 1 N that looks like it is there to get some pre-emptive strikes. I kill one archer with E horse.
An archer got on our hill where a city is going found next turn. Got him with an E Jav. Started some more planting. I just remembered we had the Pyramids so I sold our 2 granaries for 30g. Slider now Chiv in 5 @ -15gpt. 2(2)-0

IT- The sword I thought might attack from the hill get off the hill to look for a better target. Not a good decision guys.
Tecumseh - MDI > Coll p-build
Chatt – Harbor > Coll p-build
Lancaster riots! I check every turn! Sorry guys. EDIT- I pulled the MP probably.
Little RT – Walls > Pike in 6.

670AD – turn 2
Fix Lancaster up with a taxman. It is 4-1-4
Bedford – Kill a rouge spear and a settle/spear pair with elites. 2 slaves.
Founded Nashville on hill. Man, I guess I should have taken ot the Aztec town, prying it won’t flip. Killed a sword, 3 archers. 6(5)-0. Pillaging goes well. Otto has his horses hooked up again.
Pulled 2/4 pikes from Georgia to help support effort. Its loaded with units.

IT- Americans ask us to stop it. Sorry. They then drop off a spear next to Chicago and swing 2 horses out of the fog.
Greebleyville – Court > Horse(to be knight). Corruption at 3-3 50%

680AD – turn 3
Bedford – Killed a Chaqui Scout
Founded Iron Hill near S Iron
Chicago – Killed Archer and a spear. 2 American horse on hill have options at IT. All pikes.
A of Cumberland takes out the Otto horses again. We need 3 armies to cover that land up there.

IT – The horses get off the hill but don’t attack. They’re suicidal.
Mannassas – Settler > Settler in 15. I was tempted to go courthouse. Also, it now has forest in the tundra that is 1f2s. I think we can irrigate over some of its mines that only get 1s for better balance.

690AD – turn 4
Chicago horses go down to E horse and a MDI.
I kill 2 other archers near Nashville.
Assault on Tlax. I kill 3 spears losing 1 Jav and it leaves 1 archer in town.

IT – Nothing. A spear ran into Tlax

700AD – turn 5.
Tlax is razed killing an archer and injured spear. Then I went stupid and hurried walls in Nashville. Probably will never need them at the rate we’re going. I’ve had only a couple attacks on cities in 20 turns.
Moving troops to new capital on NW coast. Cuzco’s wines are disconnected.

IT – 5 archers and 2 horses pop out of fog with their weapons trembling in their hands. They form a perimeter near Bedford and Georgia.
CHIVALRY is here! Invention set
Resaca – Lib > Pike
Nashville walls go to a temple. Subject to change.

710AD – turn 6
Templar due next turn in Bull Run
LSU palace is in 32 so I have to speed up research from lone scientist. Shoot! I wonder if I should burn some shields off? It has 95 shields in the till right now. I’m going to slow it down a bit to palace in 41 and give Bull Run more shields. Builds are switched on 3 cities with colloseums and we get 3 knights over the next 3 turns 1-2-3. We are at 106g and 105 gpt so I can up grade next turn. Invention in 50! I hurry the market in Lancaster for 44g. While playing with MM I see savannah is on market in 26 getting 3 of 12 shields. I switch it to court in 15, then we can go to market and get it that much quicker. Same with Augusta, court in 2. Is this right thinking. The markets will build faster than before with decreased corruption. Missionary Ridge too. I think that if you have over 50% corruption market should come 1st. Let me know if I should hit myself over the head with the pipe I may be smoking. Besides Augusta you can switch them back.
Oh yeah, I killed 2 Otto horses.

IT- More troops moving but not attacking
Tecumseh – Knight > Knight
Bull Run – Templar > Market
Lancaster – Market > Temple, we’re running a clown there.

720AD – turn 7
Near Bedford a chaq scout and an archer buy the farm. I’m sending the 3 knights coming off the assembly line to Bedford so that we can start a push for dyes. Next leader can have at it or re-rout to elsewhere. I upgrade a horse in Nashville.

IT – No attacks.
Sherman – Knight > Knight
Augusta – Court > Market in 20 I think it was 16 before s it’s like getting a court in 6.

730AD – turn 8
Bedford – I kill one archer bomb another in jungle to 1 /4.
Nashville I bomb an archer to 2/3 and then get an Army for our 3 knights to jump into.
Near Georgia I kill 2 archers. I weeded not making the GL into an army before attacking with 2 elites.
Upgraded another Knight. F1 check shows Resaca must have grown ‘cause it wants to riot next turn. I don’t want to give up the 2 shield tile so it’s stuck at 10 for a while.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman_730L.jpg

IT – I got ATTACKED! 2 horses attacked the pike I had covering the MDI that got the leader. 1 dead horse and an injured 1/4 left.
Chattanooga – Knight > Knight

740AD – turn 9
Assault on Tlacopan (NW city and capital) – 4 wins – 0 losses. Keeping it cause of the whales. Starving now with taxmen. Virginia Beach folds in to our empire.
Near Bedford a knight kills an archer and goes elite! And near Nashville an MDI goes elite.

IT- No attacks.

750AD – turn 10
I form up the Nashville Volunteer Army of Knights and went a killing. Near Bedford they had been stacking guys up in the jungle and I had been bombing them. Now I decided since there were around 6 archers/spears there in assorted state of injury it was time to knock a few off. I killed 2 spears and 2 archers. The army went elite and the other 3 boys I used went 3 for 3 on kills but have a few injuries.

I have a settler very near where Greebley left me his heading to the other floodplain city NE of Nashville. Those 2 archers nearby are heading to
There is a worker train, in shackles of course, moving between Savannah and Paducah. They had finished the foresting operations on Iron Hill peninsula and are heading up to do what you may want. Sorry about the over-forestation. I see now that 2 of the tiles I forested will not be used.
On the Leo’s prebuild / Invention discovery time discrepancy we can jack the research up when it gets closer. Upgrading knights takes priority right now. I’m mining around Georgia because with all the food bonuses it doesn’t need 2 food in plains. 1 casualty and probably 20-30 wins. Also look for the 1st crusader to roll off I think in 2 turns. One last thing is that I think Jonesboro should be abandoned to give cities some breathing room and not screw us on FP rank and the dot map has a desert city between the 2 oasis's that should be moved to 1 tile S of the current Aztec city. A #4,5 city that would get hardly any shields makes no sense. know you guys want 3 spacing but I don't think we're going to be very threatened now that we have knights.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/ShermanCru.jpg

I've been pondering the time it will take to slog our way through the jungle to get to the dyes and I think I have a better idea. Build a few boats and send a few other pikes/workers. If we can knock off Oil Springs it will give us a toehold to 3 very close luxs and one right away with a rushed harbor. The army that is in the vicinity can go and post up on the land bridge to keep anyone from getting in. We run the knight army up, attack and if not successful hide under army until healed. They can only boat new troops in if we're blocking the bridge. From there we can send other knights up and start a new front. This one here is taking far too long and it will speed up development of our south if we give them something to worry about up there. EDIT: Except that we have dyes already. Good launch spot though if we can control sea there.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Shermanatt.jpg

Goodwork Barbslinger. On the market vs courthouse - When I built the FP we increased corruption for certain cities and Savannah is one of the ones that was hurt. Your switch to courthouse was a good catch and the right move to make.

I definitely like foresting tundra. A forest is as good as mining a tundra square and adding rails so there is no need to remove it when we do get rails unlike other terrains.

I am not at my Civ comp, but I think you are confusing silks with dyes? Is this true?

On LEO - If we get this wonder we spend 1/2 the money to upgrade. It might be better to go for it at full speed, and time science to finish right before. This would save 60 gold per horse not yet upgraded, at the cost of waiting a bit longer for them. TMcC, you might want to see what makes more sense. If we are going for a major push forward, I would think immediate upgrade to knights is most important. If we are not, I think getting LEO before upgrading too many is better.

TMcC, you are up.

Second the good work Slinger.

I also echo Greebley's sentiment that courthouses in the 2nd ring are a good build, and will remain so even after the patch gives us a working FP.

The luxury near Oil Springs would be new to us.

On Leo's: There was "Plan A", where Bull Run was using the Palace to pre-build for Leo's and LSU would use a Cathedral to pre-build for Knights Templar. Slinger chose "Plan B", cashing in the Palace pre-build for Knights Templar and essentially starting Leo's from scratch in LSU. From his turnlog, it sounds as though we didn't lose any shields to switch to Knights Templar, so no loss there. Slinger also did the other required action for "Plan B", running lone scientist until our Horse --> Knight upgrades are complete. Once we have no more horses to upgrade, science can be turned up to a reasonable level. Ideally we would discover Invention 1-2 turns before the pre-build expires. [Note: Have to check that our Palace is still 600 shields, not 700 or 800. If not, adjust accordingly.] Plan A would have worked nicely if we had to research Monotheism ourselves (I think we got it on Greebley's turn after about 2-3 turns of research), and also Invention ourselves. Had Slinger stuck with Plan A, we would have had to sit around for about 10 turns post-Invention until Leo's completed. So now Leo's is going to be most useful for pike --> rifle upgrades, and cannon --> artillery (if this game gets that far).

I haven't looked at the save, but I don't think there is any point waiting until we accumulate enough shields to build Leo's before upgrading our Horses. From the sounds of things, that would be another ~20-25 turns, by which time we should have eliminated the Aztecs and put a serious dent in the either the Americans or the Iroquois.

I'm up, but this game is second in the queue behind RBC3c, so I'll look to play on Wednesday. No reason to hurry, we don't want to skip Handy twice. And I'd like to see if my turns can take place with a working FP. :)

Also, Slinger needs to post the save.

Just woke up and read this. Well here it is.

Save of Shermans War (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_750AD.SAV)

I really think we should go full speed on research too. I think there are only a few horses left to upgrade anyway and we are making a lot more cash now. The faster we can get to Steam the better IMHO. Waitiing 20 turns on a minsci run is fine if you are planning on trading but we are not trading. I think besides our push to conquer which should be relatively simple with knights now running rampant we should be getting libraries around our core and pushing as fast as possible to MT. This happiness problem and having to keep 3 defenders is a pain and getting the other luxuries should be our next conquest goal. For the meantime, cleaning out the Americans and the Aztecs, IMHO, should be secondary to getting a hold of some more lux and giving us both breathing room on the slider, cash and getting Otto quicker. the only thing on the Americans is we should get the choke city so we can get a pillager up into there. We are only facing archers, the occasional horse and primarily spears. I'm new to AW but during my turns I was tempted to get a SOD of Knights to go look for a fight. After sleeping on it I think we should. The sooner we have our continent the better. Once our second core has the neccesary buildings we will be churning knights like no one's business. Knights vs. spears is a blowout, let's get em.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman750oa1.jpg

Have the save, and will play sometime on Wednesday. Probably late.

There were a couple of issues raised in the last few posts, so here's my strategy. LSU has 162 shields into a Palace build. It currently makes 17 spt (can easily be bumped to 18 spt), so it can complete Leo's in 26 (25) turns. If research is turned up even to 20%, we get Invention in 25 turns. We have 7 horses remaining to upgrade, have 162 gold in the bank, and make 123 gpt. By my 5th turn, I should have been able to upgrade all horses, except for those elites that have not yet spawned a leader. Once that is complete, I'll turn research back on. I'll aim for break-even, or a slight loss, depending on our economy. We have no need to wait for the pre-build to complete to research Invention.

I am also inclined to abandon Jonesboro (through building 3 or 4 settlers). The only buildings there are the free Barracks and Granary, and removing it should allow all the cities around it to work 12 land tiles. It is hard to de-convolute exactly who would get what, but a couple of cities are stuck < size 12, and a couple would have to work coastal tiles without possibility of a harbor.

I'm going to take a couple of hours before I play to re-configure the dotmap around Georgia, taking into account the FP city can be cramped a bit from the North with the removal of Jonesboro.

I think I will continue the straight-forward military advance, and could very well see the Aztecs off on my turns.

And if I get a leader I will build a Crusader army. Just to be weird.

I assume you want to remove it to lower the rank corruption of other cities? This would be fine if you think it poorly placed, IMO.

The one that is on the dotmap between the two oasis's I woud move 1 tile N after taking out Xochilcalco. With Jonesboro removed we would then have a nice ring for Georgia. In past posts I read that our palace may soon go to LSU. Looking at the map I favor Sherman. It's more central and I think will make the area more productive than an LSU jump.
Going back to my idea of sending the Knight army to Oil Springs. We already have that lux. I think that would give us a good forward base of operations, however, Cuzco seems the better choice with the wines. though either town will work. We can then ferry in troops to begin a pincer move. If we can take Cuzco and keep the Jav army there it will save us a bundle in lux $. Ferry in 3 boats of fresh knights and we can really wreak havoc. It looks like around a 15-20 turn operation but the alternative of getting the jungle lux with city and then protecting the road I think may take longer.
Off topic- Man this GOTM is taking a while. I just got ToE, hoovers and US. India is still leading slightly and we are dominating tech. I keep gifting Otto and Toku but they aren't helping at all in the tech drive.

Good luck T_McC. It looks like you get the 1st real ultra conquer turns. Knights are a blst against 1-2 defense.

Halfway through my turns. We're up 1 city, the Aztecs are down 1 city. We're still a few turns away from this being a blowout, the AI (in particular the Ottomans) have a lot of crap units and we have a wide front at the moment. I think I can get the situation under control by the end of my turns. Not sure I can kill off the Aztecs this round. Their last city isn't really a priority at the moment.

I'll finish my turn tonight (late).

GR02 - They Came to Burgle Carnegie Hall

750 AD (0)
We have 162 gold, and make 123 gpt. We have a Palace pre-build in LSU for Leonardo's, wonder due in ~25 turns. We have one crackpot researching Invention, and he'll single-handedly make a breakthrough in 46 turns. Militarily, we have 7 Horses, 6 Knights, 20 MDI, and 5 armies. Three of the knights are in one of the armies. Upgrade Elite* horse in BedFor, to get some free healing. Two horses accounted for. Another Elite* horse is in Georgia, a vet and an elite are in Virginia Beach, a vet is in Lancaster, and a vet is in Augusta. So 4 more horses to upgrade, and the other two can wait until they generate leaders.

Now to root through the city builds. I'd like another settler soon, since I think the early offensive action will be to raze an Aztec city or two. Georgia has the proverbial "metric buttload" of food. Swap BedFor to an aqueduct, it has plenty of food to grow past 6. Swap Bull Run to Harbor, to open up some options with the MM. One bad thing about the new specialists: Putting a citizen back to work just cost me some money. Pick up a couple of bucks at Sherman. Get growth a turn sooner in Manassas. Lancaster switched to Settler. Augusta swapped to pike, needs 3rd MP. Paducah needs MP, but is too far along with Market to switch. Lincoln appears to be a 1/1 city, so it swaps to Settler (due in 13). Greebleyville swapped to Pike. Notice Grant will build a Settler next turn, revisit Lancaster. Switch Lancaster back to Temple. Jonesboro to Knight. Swapped some tiles between Tecumseh and Sherman, to no net effect this cycle, but will be better on the next cycle.

{Aside: I don't mean to pick on Slinger, I'm just verbose when I do the MM, as I have to think about it more when I write it, instead of just doing it. :) }

Diplo check: :rolleyes: Monty is really keeping up in tech! Shame he's gonna be dead soon. Osman has his horses hooked up again, that has to change. We can't get at Abe's horses without a boat, until we conquer Atlanta. (We have to do that this game! Well, actually we should raze and replace his Atlanta with one of our own)

<Return>

IT - Virginia Beach seems to be the destination of choice for the Americans, including an amphibious landing.

760 AD (1)
Move Knight Army stack towards Xochi... Kill two American units, pillage a little. Kill an Inca worker. All the AI seem to be targeting Va. Beach. [2(1)-0]

IT - More wandering around.

770 AD (2)
First Crusader pops off the line. Kill 4 units, lose none, promote none. [6(3)-0]

IT - Slight problem. Vet AC nears Va. Beach.

780 AD (3)
Retreat the AC and kill a horse. Found Charleston N. of Georgia. Gong Aztec archer, kill w/Elite Knight. Upgrade three horses to knights. [7(4)-0]

IT - Va. Beach is definitely the target of the Ottos. Lots of not-great units are descending, and the damn thing won't starve so I can build walls.

790 AD (4)
Spear in Xochi.. ate his wheaties and took 7 hp off the knight army. Two more victories later, and Xochi burns. Aztecs playing an OCC. [10(5)-0]

IT - The Otto troops look confused. I have a lot of exposed workers, and I think the AI targeting algorithm is going nuts.

800 AD (5)
Research turned on, Invention in 12 at +24 gpt. Kill Otto spear and enslave Otto archer. Enslave Incan archer. Whack a unit at Iznik with Sword army. Might as well stop the AC, we won't get up here until right after the Statue expires. Hurry walls in Charleston. [14(7)-0]

Mid-Turn Micro: Only slight adjustments.

IT - Lots of folks running around.

810 AD (6) - A Most Eventful Turn
Kill Otto spear at Va. Beach. Rush Walls in Va. Beach, as it is down to size 1. Off two Aztecs at BedFor. Kill American archer at Nashville. Crusader scores a weak victory over an archer. Lose a knight against an Otto spear. Elite MDI makes up for, and generates a Leader. This in turn leads to ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Self-Aggrandizing.JPG

{:aargh: THAT'S REALLY THE WRONG WAR!!! :aargh: I'm leaving! :suicide: }

Kill 5 Otto units total around Charleston. Jav army enslaves Otto spear.

I lose the Army of Cumberland attacking a spear. :mad: 8 hps to 2. :wallbash:

All right, no more stupid stuff. There wasn't anything left to pillage, so I figured, why not? That's why not. Have to get a replacement Army now. [26-2(4)]

IT - Still seething over my own stupidity.

820 AD (7)
Whack a couple of purple guys outside BedFor. Kill 3 Otto units outside Charleston, lose another knight against an archer! Second Knight cuts down freakin' arrow-boy. [32-3(5)]

IT - Win a couple on defense, including a Knight over an AC. [34-3(5)]. Monty wants to talk, I tell him to go piss up a tree. All the workers just out of their reach cause the AI units to get into such vulnerable positions.

830 AD (8)
How good a mood am I in? I found Andersonville, NW of Bedford Forrest. Kill one American spear. Then another, and an American archer. [37-3(5)]

IT - Nothing special

840 AD (9)
Killed about 4 units between Andersonville and BedFor. [41-3(5)] Men of Troy completed, two Crusaders and an Elite* MDI. (7.4.2 army with 13 hps)

850 AD (10)
Kill 6 more units between Andersonville and BedFor. Start some libraries in the FP core, as I think we have critical mass in units near the front. The knight army should be free to lead an attack, and there are enough MDI, artillery and knights at the front to put a real hurtin' on everything the AI sends our way. [47-3(5)]

Summary: This round kind of felt like a failure. I thought I would accomplish more, and then pulled a boneheaded move and lost an army. The Crusader/MDI army struggled to beat a 2-HP spear, which kind of summed up my feelings on the round.

I went a little heavy on pikes in the FP core. Due to our shortage of lux, when the front moves forward the offensive units move with it, but the defensive units have to stay behind as MP. Invention is due in 6, and we are making +23 gpt. The pre-build has 332 shields in, so it will be ~450 when Invention is discovered. Then another 9-10 turns before Leo's completes. If we weren't facing a jungle slog, I'd say we are about ready to go on the offensive. We now have two offensive armies (although even I don't trust the Men of Troy) and 11 loose knights. All of the knights should be on the front lines. There is a settler active, but I'll say more in the next post.

The situation on our border.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR02_850AD.JPG

The active settler is in the stack circled. I intended to settle on the northern red dot, SW of the knight. But be warned, I have more of a swarm of units than a stack. You'll have to bring together units from a couple of different places when founding the city. There are a few pikes on the high ground, the knight in the picture, and just about all the units in Va. Beach can be pulled out to put in the new front-line city.

The other red dot is a proposed site for a city to replace Charleston on the front lines. It is on a river, autoclears a jungle tile, and is a double-banana site. :) (That just sounds like a fun place!)

With those sites, we could keep the Iro cities if we wanted to.

You will also notice that our FP core is coming along nicely in terms of terrain improvements. Improvements have almost reached the front lines, and this was starting to confuse the AI targeting. All these workers, always 1 step out of reach ... and then a diseased cow lands on your head and some guy on horseback tries to fillet you with a lance.

Sherman in 850 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_850_AD.zip)

I can imagine your angst when the last of the HP's fell off and the flag went down. Argggh!!!!!!!! Oh well! More armies are coming our way I believe.
Fortunately this continent seems... to be well in hand. Greebley should be able to clean the Aztecs out, if he feels it is important. Frankly, I think we should now secure our two cores and concentrate on getting some luxs. Did anyone read my post about sending the knight army in tandem with a defensive army to get Cuzco and wines? the knight army should be able to get up there unimpeded adn once it has the city we can defend with a defensive army. Cumberland would have been good for that. How much is 1 notch on the slider worth in GPT right now? If we can secure that site for a launching spot we can save the jungle for mop up. 4-5 boats of knights up there and Otto, Inca won't pester our cores anymore. It would both free up our lower area from the stronger enemies and get us up there to knock on thier door.

A couple of things:
The tile we have units on E of Andersonville is a forest. Either way it has to come down. 10% lux tax is 30 gpt.

I read Slinger's idea about an amphibious assault, and it's a good one. But it is a massive undertaking. Cuzco is 2 tiles from the wines, so we'd either have to raze and replace, building a new city on the wines, or we would have to boat up some workers, and defend roads in front of the city. If we capture Cuzco, it would be a major flip risk. If we raze, we burn the Colossus (so far from the capital, not an issue) and have to re-found on the doorstep of the new Inca capital. This would be a minor flip risk. We would be fighting a battle where our supply lines are much longer than our opponents. Not that big a deal, since we will have such superior units, but it could still cause problems. But the biggest issue is this: Even if we did capture Cuzco, and hook up the wines, and defend the road, our empire can't have access to them until Astronomy, since we don't have a clear run of coastal tiles to our capital. If we run the bottom half of the tech tree (for Cavalry), Astonomy would be a long way off.

I like the idea, but in order for us to have access to the luxuries before Astronomy, we have to capture Tiawanaku (Great Lighthouse), and capture/raze Ollantaytambo, Cuzco, and Atzcapotzalco.

I think we could re-visit the idea of an assault on Oil Springs, with an objective of cutting the continent in half. Oil Springs/Grand River/Salamanca would make a firm front line, and give us two more lux behind those lines.

I just felt our Knight army with a defense army would have no prolem taking any lone city on our map. We need the lux and the sooner we get it the better. Oil Springs is great with me. Along with a boat of knights saiing the coast behind the army lighting the way in case of enemy boats. The army can light the path for the boats so we can turn t around if need be.
On a side, GOTM26 complete, Spaceship in 1768, 5981pts.

That makes me up.

An ambhibious assault is possible, but I don't think that an army is going to work. One problem is that unless the army isn't filled yet, it won't fit on a boat. The second is that the variant rules basically state that we are to use troops and not Armies for risky assaults on towns. Remember we still have another continent to pillage!

Don't worry the error too much TMcC :) We all need to remember though that the variant emphasizes the safety of our Armies. Lone army attacks on spear protected towns is not what we should be doing. The temptation is too great to attack again when injured and put them at risk. We will clear out our island easily enough even with this restriction.

I do agree going for a lux is a high priorty item. We may be able to ship some knights and pikes. We can have our armies in the area assist with the assault, but they need to walk unless they only have 2 or less spots filled (Note that in some previous games I have purposefully only put 2 units into an army for this very reason).

Originally posted by Greebley

We all need to remember though that the variant emphasizes the safety of our Armies. Lone army attacks on spear protected towns is not what we should be doing. The temptation is too great to attack again when injured and put them at risk.

I can only reply with the words of my military mentor, Zapp Brannigan:
"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission." :p

Originally posted by Greebley
I do agree going for a lux is a high priorty item. We may be able to ship some knights and pikes. We can have our armies in the area assist with the assault, but they need to walk unless they only have 2 or less spots filled (Note that in some previous games I have purposefully only put 2 units into an army for this very reason).

Yeah, remember we only have galleys, so we'd need a few to float our artillery/workers/knights. I couldn't decide whether an amphibious assault on Oil Springs is a good idea or not. In terms of real-world strategy, it sounds great. In terms of this game, I'm not sure. It may take a long time to march up there through the jungles. I think we have enough "involuntary labor" to knock down the green-and-leafy at a brisk pace, so it may be more prudent to just continue land-based operations. By the end of your turn, we could easily be in control of some dyes, and that would go a long way to sating our need for luxuries.

If you haven't opened the save yet, I believe you'll have another 2 settlers in a couple of turns, so it probably makes sense to raze-and-replace the last Aztec city. Since that city will become a target, I don't think we want to wait for it to starve.

Be sure to build a few more Javs before Invention comes in, as they are obsoleted by Longbows. We can always use more slaves.

One thing you might want to think about before attacking the Iro cities: Salamanca holds the Great Wall. If you can take/raze Salamanca first, all the city walls on the Iro cities come down. May be a good troop saver. (Knights vs. Spears, not critical)

Good point on the razing. Speaking on forgetting the rules - I had forgotten we have to starve even last cities of civs when thinking about the position. I might have remembered before my turns, but I am glad you reminded me :)
Have we built boats yet? If not, I may start to build a some, so we do have them accessable for plans like Barbslinger's plan. Once they are built, we can see if Barbslinger's plan is still a good one (depends on the location of the front line I would think at that time).

Since the varient states to not use the army for offensive action can we stick 4-5 knights + 4-5 Pikes under an army escort to take Oil Springs? A galley of artillery following the coast next to this expeditionary force should hold the fort down there. After Invention comes in I'm undecided on a beeline to MT or getting our Navy up. On the one hand calvary kick butt, but we are already kicking butt and really need no further offensive punch for this motley group of civs on our continent. However, once we get contact and declare on Carthage, Rome THEY will assemble a Navy. There is a lot of world left unseen out there and their production will be a lot of ships on their coast once we declare. Being first to Astro, Mag may be more important. This kills the GL though which I would really hate to do. But what good is it doing us now? The other continent is only 2 civs and they must be a bit behind us. How many turns has it been since Otto has researched something? 40? Either way we go, once contact is made we're going to need a lot of galleons, frigates, artillery.
On second thought after looking at the tech tree with astro right after Ed it would probably be better to bee-line to MT for the offensive punch when we make landfall on the 2nd continent. Even if Rome, Carth are ahead of us (doubtful), we would only be a few turns from being able to get over to them. Need more cities, Armies. 3 home continent armies and 4 over there will be sweet.

Ya, armies can be used as escort service - especially if they can do some pillaging on the way :)

I was thinking Mil Trad might be the way to go as well. We can at least start towards it.

Preturn: Things look good. Decide boats are a good idea and switch Chattanooga to one.

IBT: a few archers show up.
Sherman: Knight->Knight
Savannah: Courthouse->Galley
Lancaster: Jav->Jav

860 AD:
E Horse kills Archer (Pike Covers).
V Knight vs Spear retreats
E Knight vs Spear wins.
E Knight vs Archer wins.
Knight army attacks archer.

Decide to get Invention a turn faster running at small deficit. Upgraded a few catapults and a spear.

IBT: Some scrub units show up.
Georgia: Pike->Knight (MM'ed to 4 turns, which is easy as it just grew).
Bullrun: Market->Courthouse
Chattanooga: Galley->Galley
Jonesboro: Settler->Settler

870 AD:
Attack Aztec city:
E Knight vs R Spear loses
E Knight vs R Spear wins
E Horse vs 1hp Spear wins

Aztecs are eliminated

E Jav kills an Archer
E MDI kills an Archer

Build Williamham in the spot that TMcC recommended

Attack Cattaraugus (Iroquois).
V Knight Loses vs Spear
E Knight wins and we get a leader!
E Horse wins and we get a leader! and the city falls.

Both leaders become armies. ( TMcC's Avengers and the Ontario Barb Slingers ).

Knight kills Spear
Knight kills Horse
E Knight retreats from an Archer
Knight army kills Archer.

IBT: Archer attacks Pike and loses
Tecumseh: Knight->Knight
Resistance in Cattaraugus ends.
Lincoln: Settler->Settler

Palace expansion

880 AD:
MDI vs Horse causes a retreat.
MDI vs Spear wins
MDI vs Spear wins

IBT: Ottos want to talk. I say No.
Shiloh: Courthouse->Knight

890 AD:
Bombard
MDI vs Spear wins
Knight vs Spear wins. we get 2 workers from a settler
Knight vs Archer wins.

IBT: Iroquois want to talk - Nope

900 AD:
Finish Invention and start Gun powder - Hmmm... LEO's is cheaper than the palace - completes in 11 turns.
Raise Lux to 30 for now. Too many towns with clowns. Science at 20% to do some upgrades.
Swicht shiloh to temple as it still has a Scientist

Army attacks Horseman
Army attacks Archer

IBT: Incas want to talk - Nope.
Georgia: Knight->Knight
Nashville: Temple->Market

910 AD:
Attack on Allegheny:
MDI vs Spear wins
E MDI vs Spear wins and town is taken.

MM LSU to make Leo's in 7. Note that it is starving to do this so fix after it builds!

IBT: A bunch of Archers running around
Tecumseh: Knight->Knight
Sherman: Knight->Knight

920 AD:
Build town of Briar Creek (TMcC's other spot)

Bombard Seattle
Assault on Seattle:
MDI kills a Spear
E MDI kills a Spear
Knight Army kills a Spear
MDI vs 2hp Spear loses
E Jav vs 2hp Spear wins and gets a worker. Town captured.

MDI vs Archer wins

IBT: Archer attacks MDI (jungle) and loses

GL gives us Theology
BedfordForest: Pike->Harbor
Chattanooga: Galley->Galley
Augusta riots
Paducah: Courthouse->Knight
Montgomery: Knight->Knight
Jonesboro: Settler->Settler

930 AD:
Crusader vs Spear wins
Knight vs Spear retreats
Crusader army kills an archer
Knight vs Spear wins and promotes

Set Georgia to building the Sistine Chapel (may become Bach Someday?)

Set science to 30%

IBT: Not Much
Savannah: Galley->Galley

940 AD:
Another palace expansion

Elite Jav vs archer gets us a leader
E MDI kills a Spear
MDI kills an Archer
Crusader kills a Spear
Knight kills an Archer
Knight army kills a Spear.

IBT: Not much
Whoops Bedford forrest riots. My Bad.
Bull Run: Courthouse->Knight
Greebleyville: Aquaduct->Temple
Little Roundtop: Library->Market

950 AD:

Attack on Atlanta
E MDI vs Spear loses
Crusader army vs Spear wins (it was at max hp so decided this was pretty much risk free.
Knight army vs injured Spear wins and takes town (again extremely unlikely we would lose)

Attack on Iroquois town of Tonawanda:
Knight vs Spear loses
Knight vs Spear loses
Knight Army vs injured spear wins.
E Horse vs injured Spear wins and takes the town.

E Jav vs Spear wins and two workers generated from a settler (pike covers).

Notes:
Leos in 3!

There is a settler near where the Iroquois towns used to be.

I think we should be able to close off the narrow spot. soon. At that point we can go either for America or Ottos or both. The AI's are only building archers and spears and the pillaging are keeping the number of troops down. I basically kept moving using Pikes to hold off the archers.

Important Note: I left TMcC's Avengers with only 2 knights on purpose. A galley is building next turn. However there may be enough units of ours that we can simply take boston and continue which means we can consider adding another knight.

There is also a leader that I left. I am thinking of another knight army.

Remember you can use the knight armies on attack if the attack is low risk (including any counter-attacks). We want to keep our armies for the next continent.

I just got the dyes which allowed me to drop Lux to 10% and science up to 50 on the last turn.

Seattle will starve next turn so the only town you will need to starve is Atlanta.

I left a Galley active (1 move left) so you know where it is. It could be attacked next turn so you will probably want to fortify it just in case.

Two pictures of the new front:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD950.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD950a.jpg

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_950_AD.zip)

Just kinda skimmed the report Greebley. Ontario Barb Slingers!:D :rotfl: . the report reads great! My thinking on the Americans is screw 'em. Take the choke for ship travel and pillage horses. They can stew while we head north for luxury and bigger fish. If we get 2 pikes/6 cats and 3 offensive units there it will hold them back until it's time to punch their ticket. Time to get workers moving on jungle and take down Salamanca and get gems. Haven't looked at save but will play tomorrow. right now I just got home and am preparing to do MB4 - GOTM24 redux. Will probably look at it later though.
FORWARD HO! :soldier:

I agree with you on America. I think the best idea is to take Boston and stop. We can then get Armies in easily to pillage, which will slow down their troop production.

I think best is to do a swap of Handy and Barbslinger. Barbslinger, you play first as you stated. Handy stated he would be back this weekend so Handy will go after Barbslinger and then TMcC.

So:
Roster:
Greebley (JUST PLAYED)
Handy900 (SWAPPED-ON DECK)
BarbSlinger (UP)
TMcC

Note that we have 3 or so settlers to settle. I like keeping the American towns - they have good Sherman names. I was thinking we may want to set up towns in the choke point, so unit cannot pass without bombardment. We can they move the main defense to perhaps 2 towns at the chokes.

I also was not exactly sure on city placement E of Allegheny. Since we need to clear marsh before we can settle on it, we may need workers up there to do so. I was thinking that settling on the squares that are both coastal and on the river would be best. Also replacing the Aztec town?

Will try to post tonight after work. I'm still only 2 turns in on MB4 and the 1st two took 5 hours. Looks like an all nighter.

A few quick notes:

If we keep the pre-build in Georgia, we are committed to researching Gunpowder --> Education --> Music Theory at full speed, otherwise we will build a rather expensive Bach's. If Slinger agrees with Greebley's Bach's idea, he should switch Georgia to the Palace to buy some more time. If we want to ditch the pre-build, Georgia can complete a library next turn. I'm willing to continue the pre-build, free content people is always good. And ...

We will own our continent long before Cavalry. So it behooves us to jump on the Education branch after researching Gunpowder. We can capture the Great Lighthouse from the Incas, so we can have 5-move caravels, which should alleviate any risk of sinking in Ocean tiles. Once we hit Astronomy we can go looking for trouble on the other continent. We need a minimum of 5 caravels, 3 carrying 2-knight armies, the other 2 carrying the six knights that will fill each army out to 4 units. Those armies aren't coming back, so they might as well be full strength.

One piece of good news, 3 of the surviving AI have Theology, so we might get Education for free. But I wouldn't count on that.

We should discuss how many of the AI on our continent we should let survive. I figure the Incas have to go, since we will capture a useful wonder from them. The Iros can go, because they are in our way for settling the continent. Abe can stay, since he is on a peninsula by himself. So maybe Osman can stay with a tundra city at the end. I think we benefit from living civs by making techs significantly more expensive for the other continent to research. When we get close to the domination limits, the survivors can meet the sword.

More later, including a dot-map of the jungle. I think Slinger will be playing very late in the east, so will get to read messages before playing.

Remember you can choose to play only 5 if you want in this game (I really should have done this myself and not stayed up so late last night :rolleyes: ).

TMcC, Sistine is not a bad wonder either. It makes cathedrals very nice. I think we can probably get both. I would stay on course with Sistine, but switch if Education becomes common (i.e. either way we don't need to research education).

If we do it this way, then we can decide if we want to start a pre-build of bachs later on. I think we have enough cities to be able to do this if we want.

The AI on our continent will not be building fast with no mines.

Was Jonesboro disbanded yet? Or do we wait until hospitals. I don't know how much it is impacting corrupyin in Bedfor, Augusta and Lancaster but I'm sure it is.

No it was pop 3 I think. Maybe switch to workers?

I don't think we'll have much competition getting both of them along with pretty much every other wonder from here on out. I'm really hot for Magellans and the Lighthouse though. Getting 2-3 armies over there before they can reach us would be great. Soften them up before we come over with 40-50 cavs.
I think I'll play this one when I get home at 12pm pacific time. I dot map would be TMcC. As long as we get the choke near Otto's Antalya. That hillNW of Antalya looks good. A group of Knights sitting on the mountain 2 E of hill and fortress on the other side and we can let the workers clear jungle uncovered inland.

My thoughts on cities to hold the gap would be on the horses SW of Salamanca, and Directly E of S.

I tried to make a dot map. I am not thrilled with it., but here it is. Maybe TMcC will have time to do better:

[Edit: The red arrow is pointing to another spot that covers the 3 squares to the S and is less crowded.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD950dot.jpg

I like the map and agree with forward city placement. I think we have a lot of workers doing overtime on jungle clearing and I plan to divert some of them to road to Salamnca to hook up gems. I want to take Antalya, Salamanca and Boston. Get the new cities planted and start on fortresses (open for discussion because it is probably a waste of worker effort at the pace we're conquering). I want to begin pillaging America and get gems hooked up.
On tech I think I'm going to get Gunpowder and upgrade forward pikes to muskets and then go to the upper branch (open to discussion though I think we can take this continent easily with our knights and then up grade to cavs with Leos aid later at reduced cost.) to get at Astro/Nav and the wonders associated with them. Domestically I want to increase research capability and money while producing 20 or so knights during my turns.

Let me know your thoughts.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_AD950a1.jpg

Your plan sounds like a good one to me. I agreee going the other side of the tech tree is looking attractive. We don't need Cav to kill archers and spear!

There are NO workers clearing jungle. All the workers have been building roads to get to the dye. There is a stack that can move forward - build road in 1 turn - move forward - etc. We really needed the dye lux. I would just continue to use that stack to work your way to the gems. It should make pretty good time. You could add even more workers to be able to have 2 teams that move in tandem which would road a square every turn. The number currently in the stack is about 1 1/2 as many as you need so it might not be hard to scrounge up the remaining half. One advantage to doing that is we can also get our Tree-buckets to the forward cities.

We will need to clear the jungle at some point, but I hadn't yet started on my turn. Maybe we should pop off some workers from size 12 towns. We have a decent number, but have a TON of stuff to do and foreign workers are SLOW.


BTW, I haven't checked but I was wondering if the Foreign workers were no longer affected by the Industrious trait. I am guessing the answer is yes so that 3 workers equal one of ours rather than 2. Can anyone definitively say, or is it all in my imagination?

Originally posted by Greebley
I am guessing the answer is yes so that 3 workers equal one of ours rather than 2. Can anyone definitively say, or is it all in my imagination?
I thought the foreign workers were roading in 6 on grass and if our industrious workers did it in 2 that's 3 to1. I'll check after I peel a few off. The peeled workers in a stack would do a quicker job on jungle Clearing a 3x3 initially. Clear, mine and road with 1 stack would be nice. I think 12 workers would do that in 1 turn.

Greebley, I see in another thread your out from x-mas to the 5th or 6th. I'm going to Tucson from the 25th to the 29th. Hopefully we can get the rotation back around to you before you leave. I saw the patch won't be out until Monday at the earliest.:(

[/delurk]

Actually, the ratio is 4:1, an industrious worker takes 1 and 1/2 turns to road, but it gets rounded up.

[delurk]

We aren't going to have any use for Sistine in this game, as we will never build a cathedral. Why? We currently have 3 lux in hand, with a 4th to be added on Slinger's turns. By the time Handy and I finish our turns we will have 5, and the 6th will soon follow. On Monarch, 6 lux lets us be happy to size 9, without any buildings, MP, or lux tax. Add a Temple for size 10, a Market bumps that to 16, and MP gives from 17-19. Just by taking over our own continent, we wouldn't have to build a 160-shield cathedral until our cities were size 20, and we are unlikely to have any size 20 cities. I believe the lux tax will go off for good when we get our 4th luxury, and the 5th liberates a number of units from MP duties. So Sistines is strictly for denial.

I agree with Slinger's research plan to hit the Education branch after Gunpowder. We can then ruin the 2nd continent while we return to the lower branch. I honestly believe we will not reach the Industrial Age in this game, or we will only reach it if we feel a critical need for rails. If the 2nd continent is behind us in technology when we meet, they should never see rifles, and we should never need artillery.

With a few back of the envelope calculations, I think we can get Gunpowder in 6, the Education in 8, then either Music Theory in 7 or Astronomy in 11. These numbers could go down as we are able to reduce the lux tax. My plan would be this: Immediately switch Georgia to a library, then after it completes restart a Palace pre-build. Research Guns, Edu, and then Astronomy. The pre-build in Georgia is for Copernicus' (always useful for self-research, and in one of our two "corruption-free" cities). Once we get to Guns, put Chatanooga on Sistines to pre-build for Magellan's. I guesstimate that Navigation will take ~10 turns after Astronomy (they are the same price). So Georgia will build for ~24 turns (500 shields), and should be able to instantly complete Copernicus. Chatanooga will be building for ~30 turns (450 shields), and should then instantly complete Magellan's. The only possible hang-up is if the Ottos (or someone else) completes Sistine before we discover Astronomy. I don't think that is very likely, but there are ways around that. [Swap Chatanooga to Cathedral, then immediately to University to hold 160 shields and 2 turns building time. Repeat as necessary until Astronomy comes in and the Palace becomes available.]

If my calculations in the first paragraph are correct (and check them yourself), we really don't need either Bach's or Sistine. So why spend shields or beakers on things we don't need? Let the AI build super-cathedrals instead of military, see what good it does them. :hammer:

Originally posted by Yom
[/delurk]

Actually, the ratio is 4:1, an industrious worker takes 1 and 1/2 turns to road, but it gets rounded up.

[delurk]

Beg to differ. In C3C, the industrious bonus is 50% faster workers, not 100% faster. So industrious workers to take 2 full turns to complete what normal workers do in 3. Roads on flat ground is a bad example, as it can't show the difference. It is more noticable when mining, as industrious workers now take 8 turns (12 for regular workers), whereas before they could complete in 6. In PTW and vanilla Civ3, what you said is correct.

So 6 involuntaries = 3 regular = 2 industrious.

First, a map of our immediate northern front.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR02_DM3_1.JPG

This doesn't differ much from what Greebley proposed. I agree with the red dot on the hill south of Boston (and to keep or replace Boston). I agree to found on the two piles of ruins in the east. Greebley and I also agree on the black dot SE of Atlanta (and bananas). The only thing I added was the black dot between Atlanta and Cattaraugus, where an Otto spear currently stands.

Now for a map that goes farther north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR02_DM3_2b.JPG

The red dot in the extreme SW is from the previous map. I moved Greebley's Salamanca dot 1 farther NE, still on the coast and a lake, so that enemies have to approach on flat ground. The other two red dots form a "do-not-pass" zone for enemy units. Most attacks will again have to come from flat ground, as we only need to control the hill N of Antalaya. Oil Springs is off the eastern edge of this map. Founding a city anywhere on that little peninsula would be fine.

The black dots are cities to stage the final breakthrough. Again we take the high ground south of Grand River. The blue-squared black dot is the last stand of the Ottomans. Once we secure that position, there is no terrain remaining that can slow our troops, and our exclusivity on mounted units should allow a lot of killing. That will become the focal point for the AI in the north. Conveniently enough, it also claims another lux for us. :) The western black dot is one more high-ground site in case the AI want to attack through the mountains.

So don't be skimpy with the settlers. There are 11 proposed city sites on these two maps.

Ya, I will be out for about a week. Not exactly sure of the times yet, but it will be aprox Dec 27 to Jan 5. I should know more for sure soon and will post.

TMcC,

I think putting towns on the river is pretty important here. We want the unit support of (+2 without an aquaduct). A little crowding and such doesn't matter unless the town location can get +2 gold more for whatever reason off the river than on. At least that is how I figure it....

Originally posted by Greebley
I think putting towns on the river is pretty important here. We want the unit support of (+2 without an aquaduct). A little crowding and such doesn't matter unless the town location can get +2 gold more for whatever reason off the river than on. At least that is how I figure it....

OK. The two black dots on the first dot map are on rivers. The two eastern red dots are not. One solution is to move both dots 1 space north, putting the southern dot on the irrigated river grass tile. Or one could move the northern red dot 1 south, but only after clearing the marsh. (I think you can not build a city on a marsh tile, but the civilopedia doesn't specify.) Then the southern red dot can go SW, and another city can probably be founded between the northern red dot and Antalaya.

Or, how about this ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR02_Revised.JPG

Build the two red dots now, and the blue dot when we have spare labor. There are enough unique coastal tiles that I'm sure all four cities in the area can grow to 7+. Black dot is just sort of a wild guess.

In the northern dot map there is only one river. Two of the three red dot cities are on lakes. Depending on how quick our advance is, we could contort those cities around to get three cities around the lakes.

That would probably work. The only change I might make is to move the black dot 1 square N on the final map. then a single town can attacl all units going south of the lake at the narrow point of the continent.

Not sure how likely such a town would be needed. We may be in the "roll over the enemy" phase so it is not at all important.

950AD inherited turn of Shermans war

Only had movement on the galley which culd not attack so I slid back one square. Liked Handys idea on Bachs and Sistenes so bye-bye sistene in Georgia, hello lib. Seattle set to tax collectors to starve and a Pike/cat from Paducah sent towards the front. City happiness OK. F1 OK. We have 20 knights with 2 more rolling off next turn. 7 glorious armies are pillaging/ fighting and the rumor among the knight armies is that they may be sent overseas. Wasted 5 shields in Charleston switching longbow to pike. Sent Jav in town to the front. Leader in Andersonville thinking about a university or an army. Army of knights again he declares! Sherman the magnificent demands war! However since he is tuckered out and no movement he will rest in town for 10 years and then get around to making that army he promised. I have 2 Otto archers threatening, that’s it. $5 says they run away.

IBT- They ran onto the hill thinking they will beat the army there. Galley from America ran into Boston harbor. Other misc movement of little note.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Georgia - Lib > Palace for Copernicus
Chatt – Galley > Sistine for Magellans
Vir Beach – Galley > Galley
Lancaster – knight > knight
Charleston Pike > Pike

960AD – turn 1
Cleaned up 4-5 of the riff-raff in the jungle nearly losing a jav but, alas, gaining another slave. Knight army near Boston captures Boston :hammer: losing 2 hp. Sending in backup. Trebuckets head towards front. Shifting workers out of jungle to aid in core and get road to Salamanca. Pillagers discover Otto has horses hooked up in Bursa again. I shift sci-sli to gun in 4 at –17. 82g in coffers. We’re up at least chiv and invention, they are all nearly broke. Atlanta set to starve some more.

IBT- Army in Boston gets attacked. Kills a horse. Lose 1 MDI in jungle.
Williamham – Worker > worker
Mannassas riots. Oops, better check F1 everytime. Empty food box. Checking now to see if any town due to grow.

970AD - turn 2
Switched Charleston to courthouse, same shields as the library, it is now due in 19 with more mines coming in. It is 4-4 on shields. Army formed with 2 knights. Not much to write except that I am forming up for attacks on Salamanca and Antalya taking the settlers with me. The ones in production can back fill. Boston army is being threatened by 2 spears this turn only. 3 buckets and 2 pikes are moving in next turn. Looks like it needs 1 more unit in it to not get attacked.

IBT- America pillages Boston’s mines!
LSU – Leo’s Workshop! > knight
Sherman – knight > knight
Mannassas back to civil order.

980AD – turn 3
I knock out a couple of jungle spears, move the backups into Boston and then take on our first galley. We had two there and I sent the vet vs their reg. We went down 3 hp out of the gate and right when the I looked over at the army within sight we won 3 hp in a row to record the 1st naval victory! I covered him with the othe vet. A 1 knight army,5 knight,1 horse,1 MDI settler and 2 pikes are converging on Antalya while a similar group is closing in on Salamanca with trebucket support. Guns in 2

IBT- Chaqui scout took me by surprise running that extra step in the jungle. He thinks he’s gonna take Atlanta.
Shiloh – Temple > worker
Augusta > Lib > worker
Jonesboro – Settler > worker in 3 and then abandon

990AD – turn 4
In Boston I bomb a spear down to 1hp and then a 5/5 jav can’t do the job. 2 losses now. Knocked off 2 archers, a spear/settler combo for 2 slaves. The aforementioned scout and a spear.

IT- Gun comes in. Education in 10 at +60gpt or 7 at +6gpt. I’ll bounce back and forth. I want to upgrade the Atlanta pikes and then the Salamanca ones once I capture. No attacks though a new grop of regs step up to the chopping block.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Paducah – knight > knight

1000AD turn 5
5/5 crusader in Allegenney gets 2 slaves from a spear escort. Closing in. Workers are with Salamanca group to hok up dyes. I also have groups improving Georgia core. I just saw that Salamnca has the Great Wall. I’m going to capture it and next leader can pul the raze trigger after discussion. It is obsolete after metallurgy so maybe we can keep it until then and then switch. I don’t know yet. I’m off to raze havoc. Wines are now cut again around Cuzco. Otto has his capital horses hooked up again.

IT- Nothing of note except more archers coming over to watch me raze Antalya.
LSU – knight > knight
Shiloh – worker > lib
Allegeney – worker > worker
Resaca – market > worker
Mannassas – court > temple
Augusta – worker > market

1010AD – turn 6
I changed Virginia Beach from galley to temple, we still don’t have the expansion to get the whale. Muskets are 45g upgrade. We have the 1st one in Atlanta. Kinda appropriate I think. Dateline Antalya: 3 knights take out 2 spears and an archer and burn it to the ground :hammer: losing 1 hp between all of them. Now I am perplexed as to where to put this settler in tow. I’ll go with TMcC’s and place the 1st choke next to the lake if I can get there. Just saw LSU was going to starve. MM’ed to no growth and 20 shields. Salamanca should fall next turn and have a road connected up in 2. I’m expecting gems by the end. After writing that I decided to go back and I took out two spears at the cost of 1 hp. Now I’ll hit enter.

IT- No attacks due to temp chokes I have set up.
Bull Run - > the always welcomed knight/crusader combo > knight
Savannah – Galley > Lib in 20
Paducah riots at pop12. MM’ed on the spot. I think I’m tired.
Jonesboro – Last worker and abandoning after writing this.
Briar Creek – worker > worker
Palace gets trees in the front to remind take Shermans mind off the jungle in the north 40.

1020AD – turn 7
Lets go to the good stuff. I bomb Salamanca and the palace is destroyed! Great shot guys :lol: . Salamanca is captured :hammer: and RAZED killing 2 spears and getting a slave. Great wall schmate wall. The choke is more important. 2 cities going up next turn. Settler in route to 3rd city placement for choke. I’m going to put him on a boat near Bedford. I have 4 galleys there now. Boston gets its #3 knight to take the army inland to pillage America. Abandoning Jonesboro did not make a difference on the shield counts in Lancaster, Bedford or Augusta. Will check after turn thinking it will recalculate.

IT- A few archers jump on Pikes Peak in the middle of the jungle. I have plenty to cover Atlanta. Missionary Ridge – court > Aqueduct in 9.

1030AD – turn 8
Pikes Peak and Dixon are founded.Gems hooked up. Lux to 0% and education in 3 at –42gpt or 4 at –9gpt with 158g in bank. I go with 3 turns. We really have no need to upgrade as yet and if we do need to we can turn slider back. All clowns, taxmen given their walking papers. Still waiting on ¼ knight I put into Boston army to heal to go pillaging. We have 3 archers and a spear behind our lines and they will be disappearing shortly. The 3 cities I spoke of before did have a corruption improvement. 1 shield each. Cobb already has it’s first galley come into port to fortify and get some pointers on fighting.

IT- 3 archers on mountain head south thinking about trying to raise Cain somewhere else.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Sherman – knight > knight
Resaca – worker > court
Chicago – temple > court
Freaking Paducah riots. We get a 3rd floor on the palace.
1040AD – turn 9
Nothing really but consolidation of front. The final front settler is in place for next turn planting. Killed a 1/3 archer sittin next to our front lines and got a slave. Dang, a 4/4 jav from a hill lost to a 3/3 spear in jungle behind our lines. Killed the perp with a knight. Jungle clearing begins.

IT- They shuffle around making bets on who and where the next guy will die.
LSU – knight > knight
Lancaster – knight > library
Nashville – market > aqueduct
We get a snazzy west wing on the palace.

1050AD – turn 10
The army in Boston ventures into what is left of America. The army in Incan lands has finished with the wines and is heading to oil springs. The otto empire patrol is actually looking for something to pillage. Wanted to head up to the gems again but as long as they don’t connect I could really care less and sure enough Bursa has the horses hooked up again. Mason is founded to complete the Mason-Dixon line. The last of the enemies have been vanquished from our jungle.

I have workers on the mason-dixon line doing roads and clearing. Right click to see whats up there. I screwed up on Boston and forgot to starve. It’s starving now. It already grew a pop too. Same with Atlanta. you can also get education in 1 if you like. I like but forgot to cave it that way. I may have saved it that way and the pic was taken prior.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sherman1050.jpgThe SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1050AD.SAV)

Good turns. We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory)


I think Handy said he would be back today so lets give him a chance for an "I got it". Handy, if you are back and read this, then post an I got it or a request to switch with TMcC.

If we don't hear from Handy within 24 hours (from now), then you can take TMcC.

Excellent push forward. :goodjob: to Slinger!

Let's hope Handy is available to play, and that we hear from him before tomorrow afternoon. I think he will be pleasantly surprised by how much progress has been made.

Couple of quick notes from the save:

Research can be turned down to 50%, Education is still due in 2 but we would make +65 gpt. Our "illustrious" opponents now have zero Iron and zero Saltpeter in their combined territories, so the blowout continues.

Lots of MM opportunities exist. Williamham is terribly corrupt, but has truckloads of food, so could be running some specialists. (Already size 7, so we get the extra unit support.)

One criticism. We have a couple of weird army combinations, in particular the knight in Men of Troy. The army moves as fast as its slowest member, so we only get two moves anyhow. If we wanted to put a 4th unit in the army, a much better choice would have been a Crusader. This army now cannot be transported to the other continent until Combustion. The second problem was that it was a veteran knight. We really don't need to add 4th units to any army right now, but when we do we should have enough elites lying around that those should be added. It is incredibly difficult to promote any unit in an army that is not on top, so we likely won't be able to get an 18th hit point in the Men of Troy through promotion. Since that is the only 4-member army, and the combination is so weird, I have to assume it was a mis-click.

Secondly, and I'll put it in bold:

To invade the other continent with caravels, we MUST have armies loaded with only two units!

@Handy - do NOT put another unit in the army garrisoning Dixon. We'll take two more knights on a separate caravel, and form a 4-member army when we land. Also, be so kind as to score us two more leaders, so we can invade with three armies at once.

Originally posted by Greebley
Good turns. We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory)


I think Handy said he would be back today so lets give him a chance for an "I got it". Handy, if you are back and read this, then post an I got it or a request to switch with TMcC.

If we don't hear from Handy within 24 hours (from now), then you can take TMcC.

I GOT IT

Very Nice Progress :D

I'll read through all of your recent posts and make a "to do" list before I play. I'll probably only play 5 turns since I'm a little out of the flow of the game. I'll play & today (Saturday) 12-20.

It's good to be home! :)

Won't we be able to build caravels in around 7-8 turns? Also, you can get education in 1 and I think I saved it that way.

Pre Turn Review (1050 AD). My how time flies…

To Do – Italics are quotes from teammates prior posts
Set research to 50% ok
…Our "illustrious" opponents now have zero Iron and zero Saltpeter in their combined territories, so the blowout continues… OUTSTANDING :D
Lots of MM opportunities exist MM is not one of my strengths. I don’t stink, but…well, you know. I’ll do my best, but the next player should have a look @ cities to make sure they are efficient.
We have a couple of weird army combinations… the army moves as fast as its slowest member… this army now cannot be transported to the other continent until Combustion... we should have enough elites lying around that those should be added. I agree with this. If our continent has zero salt & Iron, we can afford to keep armies to size 3 and all of the same unit is a good idea.
To invade the other continent with caravels, we MUST have armies loaded with only two units! Pretty amazing. I’ve never been in a position before to invade with caravels in AWM. I was never ready until Galleons came in. Who was the guy who was worried we could not win this start… ;)
do NOT put another unit in the army garrisoning Dixon OK
We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory) Scout for Ivory & see when & how we might make preparations to hook up.
Note to self- remember to starve captured cities & sell improvements.
I need to go back & read to see what the research plan was after we get education. I see a Sistine pre-build, but since we will probably build few if any cathedrals I’m guessing that’s intended for Bach which has an effect on all cities or some other wonder.
Research… I found these posts…
T_McC ”…either Music Theory in 7 or Astronomy in 11 … Georgia…Palace pre-build” Research Guns, Education, and then Astronomy… Georgia is for Copernicus' … Chattanooga on Sistine to pre-build for Magellan's. Chattanooga will be building for ~30 turns (450 shields), and should then instantly complete Magellan's… if someone else completes Sistine before we discover Astronomy…Swap Chattanooga to Cathedral, then immediately to University to hold 160 shields and 2 turns building time. Repeat as necessary until Astronomy comes in and the Palace becomes available… I’ll probably go towards Astronomy.
We really needed the dye lux. I would just continue to use that stack to work your way to the gems.
Actions:
I dial research down 50% & still get education in 2, making 64 GPT.
I admire all of the blue on the Mini map. :D
Swap some Greebleyville & Lancaster tiles. Lancaster has a lot of extra food.
Rearrange some Lancaster & Shiloh tiles so Shiloh can grow.
Changed Paducah so it won’t starve.
Upgrade a pike in Boston.
I see the Ivory near around Edrine.
No other civs have Chivalry – good. :D
Upgrade Pike in Dixon
Fix Augusta, Bedford, and Paducah so they won’t riot.
MM Charleston – still get the court in 3, now grow in 9 instead of 26.
Swap Charleston & Briar Creek tiles.
Nashville gets a Charleston tile and the aqueduct comes in 3 turns sooner.
Switch Mason, Seattle, and Atlanta & Boston to worker. We can rush temples in these corrupt cities by disbanding drafted units and disbanding obsolete units. We don’t need temple in corrupt areas except to gain landmass. I think we need workers more than temples right now. Roads to the battlefront will put more heat on Otto & friends. We can join the workers to cities later if we don’t need them anymore. I left the wall builds for now, may be able to switch to workers if the attacks are weak. I hurry the worker @ Boston to get the pop down faster to reduce flip risk. Wasted 3 shields in Seattle when I switched.

Turn 1 1060 AD
Move some workers. I’m going to build a road to the front lines so knights do not get stuck in the jungle.
Slider to 40% Education in 1.


Turn 2 1070 AD
Set for Astronomy due in 8
Williamham – worker – worker
We get another crusader :D
Little Roundtop – market – harbor
Boston
We need a knight or two up here to kill archers & spears. Send a knight over from Atlanta.
Bomb three units that walked up IBT.
Upgrade a pike
Position galleys S of Pikes peak to reduce fog.
Yikes – What am I to do with the leader in Tecumseh? Where the heck did he come from – I didn’t see any leaders when I check F3. Was he on auto move??
Okay – he is a science leader. Must have gotten him by researching education first. I reloaded the 1060 AD auto save & he was not there. I didn’t see any pop-ups about getting a great leader. Did I miss a popup? Must have missed the pop-up message :confused: do you get a popup on science leaders?
Now what to do with the leader. Cannot build an army with a science leader. I can enter an “Age of Science” or build a wonder. I think I’ll save him and you can decide what to do with him. We won’t be able to rush Copernicus on my 5 turns since Astronomy is 8 turns away. Maybe we could detour & rush Bach’s for denial.
Science leader is fortified in our Capital
Pillage American horses.
Pillage Otto horses


Turn 3 1080 AD
Archer attacks & loses to Musket in Boston
AI dutifully moves into the kill zone created N of Pikes peak. The AI should move toward the empty tile where the gems are like moths to a light. You’ll need to kill them lest they pillage our gems. After we clear the tile next to the gems, we can fortify on the gems so there is no pillage risk. Since no one has horses hooked up, the pillage risk is already low.
Tecumseh – knight – knight
Montgomery – knight – knight
Grant – settler – settler
Charleston – courthouse – temple
Buy a worker in Boston
2 elites kill 2 archers near Pikes Peak.
Not really sure what the galleys were intended for. I set them in a line to reduce the fog.

Turn 4 1090 AD
3 archers move to gems near Pikes Peak
Bedford Forest – harbor – library
LSU – knight – knight
Boston – worker – worker
Bull Run – knight – library
Manassas riots :confused: I hire a tax dude
Paducah – knight – knight
Greebleyville – temple – market
Switch Tecumseh to university
Upgrade 2 pikes to musket in Mason where a lot of Archers are gathering. Maybe the upgrade will scare them off. Mason is on a hill, should hold easy.
Knight in mason kills archer on the hill.
Knight in Mason kills archer in the swamp. No more attacks because they would expose knight to counterattack. If AI archers want a piece of muskets on a hill, let them come.
Kill 3 archers near Pikes Peak. No losses, 1 retreat and 1 Knight promote.

Turn 5 1100 AD
Inca settler and a spear get off S of Pikes peak in the Jungle. (I sent two crusaders over to kill – hopefully before they settle.)
Sherman – knight – knight
Savannah riots – hire tax dude
Nashville – aqueduct – library
Jungle road completes – I’ll start the trebs north towards Pikes Peak.
Kill spear near Pikes Peak & capture an Otto Settler
Knight kills archer near Boston
Istanbul had horse hooked back up. I guess this army can go back & forth from Istanbul to Bursa pillaging horses.
Kill 2 archers near Mason
:mad: I miss clicked & put a knight on the “gems killing field”. I meant to leave that tile open, sorry.

Summary
I build roads to the front through the Jungle. There are several knights on the road to Pikes Peak. You will soon have ample knights for another offensive push.
The trebs from Allegheny are on the jungle road headed towards Pikes Peak.
I almost pillaged all of America in 5 turns. They will fall easy, but can wait for now.
I’m second guessing myself on switching the corrupt cities to workers. You can switch to something else if you desire.
Don’t forget about the leader in Tecumseh. I woke him up as a reminder. :D

Here is the save. :D

GR2_1100BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/GR2_1100AD.SAV)

I hope you didn't put 4th units in armies. :eek: We won't be able to move those until transports and I suspect the game will be over before then. (which is why I keep mentioning it).

Remember that the Army counts as 1 unit so it is size 5 with 4 units in it.

Originally posted by barbslinger
Won't we be able to build caravels in around 7-8 turns? Also, you can get education in 1 and I think I saved it that way.

Greebley already mentioned this, but the Army itself counts as 1, and every unit inside the army counts as 1. So a two-knight army counts as three units for transport purposes. I have no idea why it is coded this way, but it is.

I'm not sure we shouldn't put a 4th unit in some of the armies, as I'm sure we will keep a couple on the home continent to deal with any landings. Plus, some of our armies are going to get outdated. I'm thinking particularly of the Javelin Army, as it only has a defense of 2. But better to be safe than sorry and wait until later to decide who gets a 4th on our continent. I do think that when we initially invade the other continent, we should only be using knight armies. The 3rd square of pillaging relative to our other armies will be quite helpful. And they are rather unlikely to get attacked.

Once those armies are on the other continent, they aren't coming back, so I think we should feel free to add a 4th (and 3rd) unit over there.

Nice comeback Handy.

You get the most interesting turns, a Scientific Great Leader! And just when we really don't need one.

I see two options for this guy.
(1) Detour to Music Theory (after Navigation) and rush Bach's wherever. We don't need it in Monarchy, but ... with 6 lux on this continent, Markets, Temples and Bach's, we might be able to do AW in Republic. A size 12 city will have a maximum of 21 unhappies (including War Weariness). Six lux with markets counter 16 of them, Bach's 2, and Temples 1. With a 10% lux tax, we should be able to keep all cities working. I have no idea whether we come out ahead economically, because we would have large unit costs, but it is an interesting idea.
(2) Save him and insta-complete Newton's in Georgia. Stacking Newtons with Copernicus would make for quite a strong science city.

Third option is to wait until the patch comes out, and maybe try a Scientific Golden Age. Best case scenario, we get 5 four-turn techs during the 20 turns, or effectively one free.

I like (2) the best, but am willing to try anything. I don't see us being threatened this game.

Oh, Got It.

From the other AW game I am playing, I believe that strength 2 armies are good until Cavalry (knights won't attack it). Even our Jav army should be able to pillage for a while if the other continent is not ahead (and I don't think it is).

Remember the variant is to maximize pillaging. I am hoping to be able to send ALL the armies to the other continent and make short work of the other civs developement.

Originally posted by Greebley
I hope you didn't put 4th units in armies. :eek: We won't be able to move those until transports and I suspect the game will be over before then. (which is why I keep mentioning it).

Remember that the Army counts as 1 unit so it is size 5 with 4 units in it.

I did not load any units into armies on my turns. They are as I found them. :D

Galleons don't come in until magnetism, so we can't transport armies with 3 units loaded until that time. Good news is Caravels can be upgraded. We should send the additional units along to load after the army + extra units off-load onto the new continent. I agree we should keep the armies units comparable. We don't want to mix 2 move knights with 1 move ground troops. The army moves at the rate of the slowest unit. Too bad the patch removed the ability to unload armies (and thus upgrade them). IMHO you should be able to upgrade an army.

Originally posted by T_McC
Nice comeback Handy.

You get the most interesting turns, a Scientific Great Leader! And just when we really don't need one...



:lol: I couldn't think of anything useful to do with the leader on my turns. Didn't want to waste him since C3C won't allow military leaders to rush Great Wonders.

I did not do the math (lots of chores to catch up on), but could we rush Copernicus, and use the prebuild for Adam Smith's? Or would it take too many turns to research for Adam smith's, resulting in a wasted palace prebuild?