Well (no harm) man we are going to compare China or US (the 2 greatest country )who contributed the more in the history of mankind?Why?

THE TWO GREATEST COUNTRIES????????? :eek:

On what basis?

Hmmmm I was wrong should I say SuperPower instead?

They are indeed great,look at their achievements.....Thats why i want to compare!

Original thread is here in the Civ3 forum : -

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7189

Not sure why he wants to restart the exact same thread and poll in Off-Topic. :confused:

I wanted to restart because my "ally" had complained US should not be put with West and China should not be put with East.Anyway i am correcting the mistakes i have in the original one!

I put it on Off Topic Forum because i just discovered it,the people here are more interested in these kind of stuffs!

What a stupid poll :rolleyes:

Why dont you tell us your opinion.

My opinion is that China has made the greatest contribution,I am challenging the US because of a person called Brandon749 inflamed me!My comparison here is to get support to boo at him!
He repeatedly saying US is the best ,so I think it will be interesting if i compare US with China

This is the crazy thing he says:

"Lets face it, America is the greatest civilization (in real life) ever. It probably deserves all of the civ speciific abilities, but that would unbalance the game."Brandon


There are still more crazy things

"We are nation that is a Civilization. WE defined the culture in the 20th century. WE currently produce the greatest minds in the world and the best and brightest from throughout the world come to America for their education. WE are a civilization.

In determining whether a nation is a civilization you ask yourself not how long its been but what impact its had. What was the first modern democracy? The United States. What has been the hegemon for the past 60 years? The United States. According to Henry Kissinger, in his Diplomacy, "no country has influenced international relations as decisively and at the same time as ambivalently as the United States." By the end of WWII, The United States was so powerful that 35 percent of the entire worlds economic production was American. (Kissinger) What other nation can claim this? Perhaps Great Britain in the 19th century, but that it. The United States has exported so many inventions, so many innovations, and so much culture that if it isn't a civilization, I don't know what is?

One person said something about the Americans being more expansionist than anything else. This is pattently false. The United States never settled colonies; its only expansion was a westward migration. His claim that the United States ceded from Britain because of expanionism is only partially true. This arguement comes from the unpopular "Proclamation Line of 1763" in which Enland curtailed much westward expansion beyond the Appalachians. The Stamp Tax, the Sugar Act, the bail-out of the British East India Tea Company, mercantilism, the quartering act, the Intolerable acts, and the Proclamation acts each of which challenged colonial rights to commerce and the fruit of their labor (and civil liberties) were far more erksome.

Anyone who claims that the United States hasn't become a Civilization needs to read their history better.

Let me address why the Americans (based on history not gameplay) should get all the csa's.

1. Militaristic: For sixty years the United States has been the military hegemon and for 20 years before that it was a significant power. Also we are and to my knowledge always have been the most armed society in the world in terms of personal gun ownership. And our gun companies are the largest in the world.

2. Expanionist: Although I do not agree with the earlier commenter that expanionism is the primary force in American policies, I do agree that it is very important.

3. Scientific: Uh c'mon weve ruled the world in this area since the Civil War atleast. (eg telegraph, repeating weaponry, first flight, nukes, etc.)

4. Commercial: Since WWI we have been the richest nation on earth and (aside from one or two arabian oil nations) we are the riches per capita as well.

5. Industrious: Massive railroad construction massive farmland (workers working faster). And since the civil war, we've been able to rally the most effective war time economies ever; thats the real test of industrial capacity.

6. Religious: Everywhere in our docuements. Founding fathers quoted Bible more than anything else. The strenghth of our culture speaks well to this ability. "


So do u know the main reason i compare now?

But who contributed most in the history of mankind... Surley the USA has been the most influent nation in the recent 100 years, but China has existed a long time earlier than that...

I think the greek has contributed a lot to mankind with their philosophers...

This can be argued about for ever. No matter which attribute your chosen civilization ought to have, there will be arguments for and against, mostly, if not all, based on some interestingly bogus statistics.
Why are the English not a scientific civ? Apparently more acadenic papers are published in Britain every year than in any other country. I think it would be ridiculous for the English to be scientific rather than commercial despite the wonderful efforts of Stephenson, Darwin, Newton et al throughout time. Napoleon may have described the English as "a nation of shopkeepers", but this is not the only reason to make the civ commercial. The activities of the British East India Company and their contemporaries who were exploiting other cultures across the globe to make their shareholders rich for many years would support this too. But ultimately the decision was one made by Firaxis for gameplaying decisions and each player gets the option to alter these attributes with the game editor. Can we not extend the argument beyond its being rooted in a game and nothing more - please? People here may love their country more than others do, but this does not make the country fundamentally a better place than another. We should leave our prejudices out of Civ and remember that it has no bearing on world events. It's a bloody good game but nothing more. I am prejudiced against the Zulus because they have annoyed me in far too many games of Civ, but I am referring to the Civ under the green banner, and not the people of southern Africa. The current political climate has shaken up many people's assumptions about nationhood and encouraged a more prominent sense of patriotism but we should not push this in the faces of those who do not share our love of our country. Can we get rid of threads like this designed to foment nationalistic wrangling please?

Remember China has not yet reached its full potential ,every intelligent man describe China as a sleeping Dragon!Once they wake up they will rock the world!

This argument is rather silly,

It is more a case of childish "I'm bigger than you"!

No-one doubts China's power, They are a top class nation!
No-one doubt the USA, a mighty republic!

But no-one power rules our earth totally, such dreams are the
province of madmen and knee-jerkers! :crazyeyes

Also there are several hundred other unique cultures of planet
earth who will disagree with this east/west rivalry!

Think what the mighty powers can do as friends instead of
enemies!

Remember Bush's visit to China recently,
the east summit with all the other leaders?
The US and Chinese leaders had arms around each other
like buddies! That's the way it should be!:lol:

Not thrilled with this one either, but it's a history question, so it's moved to the history forum.

34??it is impossible i think i am being pushed around by the moderatos?Man this place is for us to enjoy?The moderator changed the polling system?oooh no i think i will have less time coming here!It is bad.........We really hope the moderator wont interfere...

I was here round the clock and it suddenly jumped to 34.ooh dear have i offended the official?:mad: :confused:
Anyway ,behaviour like that by moderators will be probably send off all people who r big mouthed to share their ideas thats bad....

Originally posted by Fayadi
Remember China has not yet reached its full potential ,every intelligent man describe China as a sleeping Dragon!Once they wake up they will rock the world!

but now they just rock tibet...:p

Originally posted by Fayadi
34??it is impossible i think i am being pushed around by the moderatos?Man this place is for us to enjoy?The moderator changed the polling system?oooh no i think i will have less time coming here!It is bad.........We really hope the moderator wont interfere...

You posted a (or what turned into) a historical disucission, so it should rightfully be moved to the history forum. This one was a no brainer. ;)

I think this is very easy to answer: China, of course.
China has existed for several thousand years.
USA has existed for merely 230 years.

How bout the 34 votes for USA ,i was here round the clock and it suddenly jumped up with polls modified?If u r joking i am smiling,If u r serious , I am crying

I only added the "other" category, so that a discussion could ensue.

We have had a quantum leap in posters since civ-3 came out, and, as you can see, have over 130+ people on-line right now.

You can't change what people want to vote for.

Ok if i am wrong i am sorry,it seemed strange out of a sudden jumped to 34,it did not happen in a constant basis!?

I pity everyone who has cast a vote in this poll.
None of you will ever know who contributed more in the history of Mankind.
None of you will ever be able to measure it.
None of you know how to measure it.
But the saddest thing is that you all seem to think it matters.

I actually think you could compare the contributions both nations have made towards the advancement of mankind. To ask the question "the greatest civilization" is impossible....no one person could ever answer that. With that said, I would like to include my reasons for my pro-USA opinion.

I think China has given the world more than what most think. Gunpowder, paper, etc. There is no doubt that China has the longest continued presence on this earth, and it has been indeed a glorious civilization. But the most impact towards todays thought and behavior, technology, and general influence? There isn't a question in my mind that it would be the United States over China. Again, not the greatest civilization, but certainly more influential than China in modern times. Let us not forget China was isolationistic and inward looking for all but about 20 years of its 4000 year history. So, that is my response.

Fayadi, what part of Shanghai do you live in? I visited your beautiful country last year, and spent a great deal of time along the Bund and in Pudong. A good friend is there now studying at the Fudan University, teaching English. I hope to return in May.

~Chris

In this post, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you that China is or is not the greatest.

But I'd like to point out the fact that China has not been isolationist for "all but 20 of its 4000 years" One of the greatest trade routes of all time was the Silk road. This trade route threaded through China, through the Middle east, and all the way to Rome. Goods, as well as culture and religion flowed through the Silk route for centuries. Relics of this route remain in China to this day, and it is an enduring symbol of contact between East and West.

Originally posted by sonorakitch
I actually think you could compare the contributions both nations have made towards the advancement of mankind. To ask the question "the greatest civilization" is impossible....no one person could ever answer that. With that said, I would like to include my reasons for my pro-USA opinion.

I think China has given the world more than what most think. Gunpowder, paper, etc. There is no doubt that China has the longest continued presence on this earth, and it has been indeed a glorious civilization. But the most impact towards todays thought and behavior, technology, and general influence? There isn't a question in my mind that it would be the United States over China. Again, not the greatest civilization, but certainly more influential than China in modern times. Let us not forget China was isolationistic and inward looking for all but about 20 years of its 4000 year history. So, that is my response.

Fayadi, what part of Shanghai do you live in? I visited your beautiful country last year, and spent a great deal of time along the Bund and in Pudong. A good friend is there now studying at the Fudan University, teaching English. I hope to return in May.

~Chris

Darkhound,

I agree that the silk road was a great trade route. But I think that was more a result of Europeans contacting China than China contacting Europeans. In fact, I think it is arguable on whether or not China even wanted the interaction. I would say this is comparable to China in the late 1800's, during the Boxer Rebellion and the Opium wars. China was certainly not isolated in the sense of the Incans or the Aborigines, but may very well have preferred no outside intervention at all.

~Chris

Chris, I am surprised you know so much about Chinese history :)are you Chinese? But the Silk road was not primarily interaction taken on by the West. Traders journeyed both ways, and what Persians and Europeans received was traded for an equal value by the Chinese. Trading is naturally a two way thing. It can also be argued that Chinese initiated the Silk Road. The following passage is from http://www.ess.uci.edu/~oliver/silk.html



"On the return journey, Zhang Qian and his delegation were again captured, and it was not until 125 B.C. that they arrived back in Changan. The emperor was much interested by what they found, however, and more expeditions were sent out towards the West over the following years. After a few failures, a large expedition managed to obtain some of the so-called `heavenly horses', which helped transform the Han cavalry. These horses have been immortalised in the art of the period, one of the best examples being the small bronze `flying horse' found at Wuwei in the Gansu Corridor, now used as the emblem of the China International Travel Service. Spurred on by their discoveries, the Han missions pushed further westwards, and may have got as far as Persia. They brought back many objects from these regions, in particular some of the religious artwork from the Gandharan culture, and other objects of beauty for the emperor. By this process, the route to the west was opened up. Zhang Qian is still seen by many to be the father of the Silk Road. "

"In the early 1400s, a sailor named Zheng He (with a fleet of some 300-plus ships)sailed as far west as Mogadishu and Jiddah, and he may (or may not) have gotten to Madagascar. This is nearly 100 years before Columbus had the idea of trying to sail to Asia the long way around. But once the sailors came back, the trips were never followed up on. Conservative scholars at court failed to see the importance of them. For the first time in history, China was turning inwards, clinging to an incorrect interpretation of an outmoded philosophy."

Perhaps China has been isolationist in the past. Sure from 1500 to 1800's. But I don't think it's accurate to say it has been so for all but 20 years of its 4000 year history (actually, its history may be longer)

Originally posted by sonorakitch
Darkhound,

I agree that the silk road was a great trade route. But I think that was more a result of Europeans contacting China than China contacting Europeans. In fact, I think it is arguable on whether or not China even wanted the interaction. I would say this is comparable to China in the late 1800's, during the Boxer Rebellion and the Opium wars. China was certainly not isolated in the sense of the Incans or the Aborigines, but may very well have preferred no outside intervention at all.

~Chris

Chinese Government has existed for bout 51 years.
American Government has existed for bout 225 years.

Darkhound,

Thanks for the links. I am not Chinese, but lived in Hong Kong for several years, traveled through China numerous times (going back in March), and speak some Mandarin. I definetely have a great interest in China.

Yes, I see your point. I think it should be noted that I am pointing more towards government sanctioned interaction, and coherant national policies of interaction rather than individual exploration and trade. I do agree with your premise, however, than China was not entirely isolationists.

~Chris

I am actually amused that some ppl would think China has almost always been isolationist thru out most of its long and sometimes bloody history. You seem to have forgotten to mention the Tang, one of the most outward-looking, militaristic and expansionist of all the Chinese dynasties.
The Tang was actually a Sino-Turkish house and had no cultural problems (initially) with being a Turkish qaqhan as well as being a Chinese emperor. Unlike traditional Chinese emperors in later times, the Tang emperors were well-versed in horsemanship and the military arts and were very outward-looking.
They had no qualms about employing foreigners of note to lead the Tang armies. E.g. An Lushan, a Sogdian, commanded 200000 frontier troops when he rebelled against the Tang. Kao Chi-Sheh (something like that; can't remember), a Korean, commanded the Tang army that was defeated by the Arabs in Central Asia.
The city of Chang'an had 1 million inhabitants and large numbers of foreign-born residents - Uighurs, Sogdians, Turks, Nestorians, Arabs, Persians and so on. In the southern seaport of Guangzhou, half a million Arabs lived there, trading. Foreign arts flourished. Polo, a Persian sport, was popular. This was the period when the Chinese were most open to foreign influences.
Unfortunately, the Tang were weakened by rebellion and after that, the devolution of power to regional governors. Had they held on for 1-2 more centuries, who knows? Pity.

SKM,

Your point is well taken. Please consider however, the Tang Dynasty lasted from about 600-900, but really began to crumble around 800ad or so. So you are talking about 200 years out of 4000 of agreeably expanionistic overtones. So while I have aknowledged that I was mistaken when I wrote of 3980 years of total isolationism, the real fact is that most of China's 4000 year history has been isolationist in nature. Again, I agreed that my blanket statement was indeed incorrect. But to suggest that 150 years out of 4000 is evidence of a interventionist/expansionistic civilization is absurd. It would be similar to stating in a hundred years that the U.S. was an alchohol free nation, even though prohibition lasted only 20 years out of its 225 year history.

SKM, I do understand your point, however, and thank you for pointing out the Tang Dynasty. Certainly an interesting one to study, no matter how short lived.

~Chris

I was only quoting the Tang as an example for Chinese receptiveness to foreign ideas. The Qin and Han were also expansionistic. Plus the Southern Song were pretty commerical - Song ships traded all the way to India and East Africa. In the early Ming, the emperor launched naval expeditions overseas; some sailed all the way to East Africa and composed of 10s of thousands of people. And the Qing too were definitely expansionistic - taking Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet - and keeping an eye on the Russians.

I think it's only during the late Ming and the earlier phase of the present Communist govt that China was really pursuing a really tough isolationist line. Also pls remember the geographical isolation of China, so it's pretty hard to be internationalist when there wasn't any nation of comparable size within the region.

Anyway I feel silly arguing this in a silly poll like this. It's like comparing apples and oranges. America and China each had made their own contributions to human progress in their own timeframe. So there. :crazyeyes

This kind of poll is stupid.
It's extremely difficult to compare 2 nations from different time periods.
It would be extremely difficult to compare they even in present.
I'm not voting.

:rolleyes: Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

Dude, my aunt and uncle have 4 children in China. My other aunt and uncle have 2 children in China. As an American, I understand why you're upset with Fayadhi badmouthing America (I am too).

But just because he does, doesn't mean you have to up the rhetoric against China and Chinese in general. In doing so, you lower yourself. Many of the things you said are untrue or exaggerated: technology, abortion, the massacre (i.e. everyone knows it happened).





Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
:rolleyes: Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

Originally posted by DarkHound
Chris, I understand your point too. In fact, I might agree with you. We see English spoken across the world, as the default buisness language, primarily because of the US. In the future, experts say that three languages will dominate: English, Manderin and Spanish, while the others fade away.

And thanks for your insight.

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
:rolleyes: Fayadhi, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason no-one is willing to compare China to America is because China is a 3rd world nation, and America is The industrial super-giant of the world? Now don't get me wrong, you Chinese can really crank out cheap, hand-made trinkets of no significant technological sophistication what-soever, but when it comes to real manufacturing capacity, you just don't have any.

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the rest of the world that the reason so many young Chinese men like Fayadhi are discovering the Internet is because there are damn few young Chinese women for them to discover. You see, in China, when a couple finds out that the woman is having her second child, she has to go have an abortion. (Not making this up, folks, it's the LAW!) If she has a girl first, her husband will often 'accidentally' kill the child, so he can have a male heir. Experts agree that these two factors will combine to allow the Chinese to rapidly achieve their dream of a people-free China in just a few generations.

But back to the issue of why America and China cannot be compared. In America, people are allowed not only to choose their leaders, but to protest their decisions and actions without fear of being run over by tanks or shot by soldiers. The last time such a thing happened in the US, was at Kent State university, in the 70s. A lot of people went to jail over that, and the country was outraged. Does the average Chi-Comm even know about the massacre in Tiennamen Square?:soldier: :soldier: :tank:

LOL! LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!
Right on! And Estonia is also a 3rd world country! Haiti is probably a 17th world country?!
Goddam, I'm really relieved that all americans are not like you.

':lol:'
Actually Juize,
You're dead wrong, probably because you're not basing your opinion on fact. China IS a third world country (well, perhaps a 2nd world country). But it is definitely not even close to being a first world country.

GDP per capita (Gross Domestic Product) and the agriculture ratio are good indicators of where a country currently stands in terms of development. In more developed countries, the GDP per capita (how much a person makes per year) is higher. And in more developed countries, the agriculture ratio (how many people farm compared to number of people in the industry or service sector) is lower.

Compare US, Estonia and China: (this is from the CIA country factbook http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/indexgeo.html)

GDP per capita: (purchasing power parity)
-China: $3,600 (the average Chinese makes $300 a month)
-Estonia: $10,000 (the average Estonian makes $833 a month)
-US: 36,200 (the average American makes $3017 a month)

Labor force - by occupation:
-China: agriculture 50%, industry 24%, services 26% (1998)
-Estonia: industry 20%, agriculture 11%, services 69% (1999 est.)
-US: agriculture 2%, industry 18%, services 80% (1999)

With these facts, it should be pretty easy for you to decide China's status, in terms of development.

Also note,

Military expenditures:
-China: $12.608 billion (percent of GDP: 1.2%)
-US: $276.7 billion (percent of GDP: 3.2%)

Many people think that US is imminently threatened by the US, both in economy and military. Well, look at the the facts and decide for yourself. Sure, China is growing quickly and everything but it still has a long way to go.

Originally posted by Juize


LOL! LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!
Right on! And Estonia is also a 3rd world country! Haiti is probably a 17th world country?!
Goddam, I'm really relieved that all americans are not like you.

In brief my pro American arguement.

As for the China vs USA: (if Britain and Europe are hangers onto america then America wins by even more decisively.

1. I say that American citizens are alot happier and better of than Chinese so the USA is better.

2. I for one remember Tianamen Square AND can recall in my history books the "Great Leap backwards" the "Cultural Revolution", the whole Kuomentang era and basically the poverty of the peasants throughout history...the fact that both the Japanese and Mongols wiped millions of Chinese off the face of the Earth. The FACT is that American citizens have suffered rarely from starvation or war.

3. Chinese government is oppressive...look at the Fu Gong or whatever society (they e-mailed me for support, I said to stop practicing for the sake of their members lives). Look at Tibet wher the Chinese are merely colonising it so that it losses by numbers of Chinese any independance. You can't look at every internet site...while America's 3rd largest industry is porn -thats cos they have the nice looking babes :)

4. The future is brighter for American citizens with much less chance of starvation, civil war, economic collapse or dictatorship than China.

FAYADI came back with responses about who invented paper etc...well America wasn't around then but leads at present research and implementation (e.g Hubble) so you don't score any points there!

As for being nasty to Brandon Fayadi try it with me because I said Britain should get them all :)

Fayadi...I see you are lucky enough to be in Shanghai and not in some paddy field...good luck to you and nice that you aren't suffering hardship :goodjob:

P.S China is a backward country now...it has a GNP the size of Portugal and a population that is about 100 times larger :eek:

PLUS...Chinese influence hasn't been global...apart from restaurants...

IS there any great bonus in being the inventer of tech like the Chinese did that didn't benefit them so much as their enemies? Gunpowder...the Chinese REALLY benefitted from that :lol:

P.S whose people benefitted greater from the technology...American or Chinese...implementation of Chinese tech still kept most of them in the paddy field...

The Greeks at least managed to be civilised in government and the Romans managed decadent (cool!)

P.S would a superpower allow Hong Kong to show China how backward she is until the END of the lease :rolleyes: and would a superpower let Taiwan sit happily a few tens of km offshore :p

World History at present has the anglo-saxon as king.

I have posted a message "The Next World SuperPower" to discuss something about future,that thread is not about US vs China but who got the potential to be one and why.By the way
KittenofChaos, i have posted the white papers directly from Chinese Government on that thread!Maybe they can clear doubts on China's human rights ,Tibet and freedom?
We can still talk about achievements of the past there in the new thread.The main reason I am moving the discussion there ,is because i just realise this thread title is too awkward and the new thread i posted "The Next World SUperPower" sounds more sensible!Arguments over achivements and potentials will be great there

Here is the address
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7310&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
2. I for one remember Tianamen Square AND can recall in my history books the "Great Leap backwards" the "Cultural Revolution", the whole Kuomentang era and basically the poverty of the peasants throughout history...the fact that both the Japanese and Mongols wiped millions of Chinese off the face of the Earth. The FACT is that American citizens have suffered rarely from starvation or war.

P.S China is a backward country now...it has a GNP the size of Portugal and a population that is about 100 times larger :eek: Well, for point 2), America is lucky it wasn't surrounded by powerful and dangerous and aggressive powers around it. Also it was the powerful, dangerous and aggressive nation in the Americas previously. Ask all the Native Americans who got killed as the US of A expanded westwards aggressively.

As for PS, China got the 20th or so largest GNP in USD terms; and the 5th or 6th largest GNP in real purchasing power terms. Certainly not the size of Portugal's. Otherwise, Japan, Europe and the US wouldn't have negotiated China's entry into the WTO with such tough complete terms and clauses and taking decades.

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
PLUS...Chinese influence hasn't been global...apart from restaurants...

IS there any great bonus in being the inventer of tech like the Chinese did that didn't benefit them so much as their enemies? Gunpowder...the Chinese REALLY benefitted from that :lol: Well, the Chinese used gunpowder for fireworks; the Europeans used it to kill people and blow up stuff. If you find that so funny, well guess you do have a point here. Obviously Chinese are not as creative as Westerners when it comes to inventing new creative ways of killing people. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SKM
Well, the Chinese used gunpowder for fireworks; the Europeans used it to kill people and blow up stuff. If you find that so funny, well guess you do have a point here. Obviously Chinese are not as creative as Westerners when it comes to inventing new creative ways of killing people. :rolleyes:

Perhaps because they were creative in the old ways of killing people? [punch]

Taking Sun Tzu pretty far out of context: "There are five types of incendiary attck: The first is to incinerate men....Now the army must know the five changes of fire in order to defend them at the astrologically appropriate times. Thus using fire to aid an attack is enlightened...."

Maybe the Europeans were just being enlightened? :rolleyes:

Old way,with High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace !It only shows US are materialistic in inventing things but no ideas to use them off.What's the use!Just for your information China successfully beaten Vietnam!US.......


ON point 2 u dont understand,by the time Japanese invasion,CHINA HAD FOUGHT WARS WITH SO MANY COUNTRIES BRITAIN,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,And other european countries and There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!We only used inferiror weapons to resist Japanese ,it proved we are really something!
US just depend hightech stuff,if not they will just lose in every war!
By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols (though Ming Dynasty one of the main culprits for the fall of Chinese prosperity as they closed their doors to foreigners!)

Originally posted by jumbo2002


Perhaps because they were creative in the old ways of killing people? [punch]

Taking Sun Tzu pretty far out of context: "There are five types of incendiary attck: The first is to incinerate men....Now the army must know the five changes of fire in order to defend them at the astrologically appropriate times. Thus using fire to aid an attack is enlightened...."

Maybe the Europeans were just being enlightened? :rolleyes: I was actually trying to be sarcastic. I feel that KoC is using a really inane example to compare the technological bent of Westerners and Chinese. Sorry if any hard feelings. Love you guys. :love: (no, not that kind :lol: )
I'll be the first to admit that Chinese are just as inventive when it comes to war and killing ppl. Some day let me tell you about the machine-crossbow, firing lots more shots than an average crossbow. And also all the interesting stuff the Chinese used as projectiles in the cannons in their navies (Song to Yuan to early Ming).

Originally posted by Fayadi
Old way,with High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace !It only shows US are materialistic in inventing things but no ideas to use them off.What's the use!Just for your information China successfully beaten Vietnam!US.......If you are talking about the Chinese invasion of Vietnam in 1978 (1976? not sure), well it was at the cost of 26000 dead Chinese and the benefit of occupying a few border posts. Deng Xiaoping was really trying to show his generals why the PLA needed to modernize and keep up with modern military doctrine, tactics and equipment I guess.

Originally posted by Fayadi
ON point 2 u dont understand,by the time Japanese invasion,CHINA HAD FOUGHT WARS WITH SO MANY COUNTRIES BRITAIN,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,And other european countries and There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!We only used inferiror weapons to resist Japanese ,it proved we are really something!
US just depend hightech stuff,if not they will just lose in every war!
By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols (though Ming Dynasty one of the main culprits for the fall of Chinese prosperity as they closed their doors to foreigners!) To put it diplomatically, I don't think you have really studied your history that closely. The Mongols didn't just enter Ukraine; they pushed westwards and hit Central Europe and Hungary. And why shld they lose face? Almost every nation lost to the Mongols incl the Chinese, except for the Mamelukes who managed to beat them back a bit and the Japanese, who had luck and weather on their side.
I really miss your point about the Ming being a "stable" country. Yuan China, towards its end, was in chaos and rebellion cos of natural disasters, corruption, misrule etc. There wasn't any Ming state to begin with. The Mongols lost control and actually left for Mongolia before Zhu Yuanzhang (founder of the Ming) managed to destroy them per se. The Ming sent 5 or 6 humongous expeditions into the steppes to try to destroy the Mongols in the next century or less but were unsuccessful. And FYI, one of the reasons the Ming came to power was cos they got Mongol and N Chinese troops (who were more loyal than S Chinese to the Mongols) who joined their armies.

Deleted, same post. :cool:

Originally posted by SKM
I was actually trying to be sarcastic. I feel that KoC is using a really inane example to compare the technological bent of Westerners and Chinese. Sorry if any hard feelings. Love you guys. :love: (no, not that kind :lol: )
I'll be the first to admit that Chinese are just as inventive when it comes to war and killing ppl. Some day let me tell you about the machine-crossbow, firing lots more shots than an average crossbow. And also all the interesting stuff the Chinese used as projectiles in the cannons in their navies (Song to Yuan to early Ming).

No problem, SKM. I was trying to be sarcastic too. :crazyeyes

And I wanted an excuse to quote Sun Tzu totally out of context in a thread on China, since Sun Tzu is about the only thing I know about pre-20th century China. ;)

Why should they lose face,Mongols were very powerful it is no wonder they can capture China which is just beside Mongol but Europe is so far away invading towns thousand of miles away is really a losing face!U know how troublesome it took to invade cities thousand miles away?

Originally posted by Fayadi
Why should they lose face,Mongols were very powerful it is no wonder they can capture China which is just beside Mongol but Europe is so far away invading towns thousand of miles away is really a losing face!U know how troublesome it took to invade cities thousand miles away? Distance didn't mean that much to the Mongols. They could appear suddenly in Europe fr their base in Mongolia within months, on their hardy Mongolian ponies and surviving on mare milk and if necessary mare blood. The Mongols were hardy soldiers who had been conditioned by their environs to fight as very tough crack troops.

SKM here is the white paper of Chinese Government I think itshould be interesting to u
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/whitepaper/home.html

Anyway SKM could u please join in the new thread here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...20&pagenumber=2
I believe this thread should be more sensible and interesting if there is professional arguments!Anyway how do ya think of the White paper?

If my little bit on gunpowder was all you disagreed with me SKM I can take that.

KoC, I am just finding it a tiny little whinny bit offensive, the following sttment made by you (ESP the lol simile) : - Smacks just a tiny little whinny bit of racism and other ugly stuff. Other than that I have no problems with you at all; I am much much more irritated by the other guy's posts. ;)

"IS there any great bonus in being the inventer of tech like the Chinese did that didn't benefit them so much as their enemies? Gunpowder...the Chinese REALLY benefitted from that :lol:"

I am not racist...even to chinese people ;)

Seriously...I was merely trying to put in some perspective that technological advances mean nothing if they don't benefit your people. As Fayadi posted in offtopic about China having a real fast plane or having excellent attack fighters, it means nothing to me when most Chinese live MUCH worse of than most Western Europeans and Americans. I feel Fayadi's posts have lacked any sort of perspective about the true state of affaires in China.

As Fayadi posted in offtopic about China having a real fast plane or having excellent attack fighters...

At the same time, it does not matter China has planes or fighters if somebody else has stronger planes. Even though China's military is strong, it's a ground based military. China could not successfully invade Taiwan. It simply does not have the aerial or sealift capabilities to mount such an invasion; moreover, doing so would require the redeployment of approximately 500,000 troops. This action would be highly visibile by modern satellites.

The lone option that remains is a coordinated missile strike that attempts to "decapitate" the Taiwanese government. However, if four weeks of continuous bombing could not unseat Saddam Hussein (in 1991) or the Taliban (now) I have a feeling that even 250 medium range missiles would do little to Taiwan....

Have to agree with you, KoC, about the second part. Guess he's steeped in chauvinism and govt brainwash.

Seriously, I feel silly (as I have said somewhere earlier) posting here. There's no meaningful comparison history-wise betw China and the US. Both are fundamentally different countries with different culture, time-frame, govt type, even form of writing (alphabet for the US, ideograms for China). Let's just agree that both nations contribute to human civ and progress and leave it there. ;) Peace.

Have any of you non-Chinese read the White Papers? I urge you to do so. It's really chilling stuff:eek:, when it isn't totally obtuse:confused:. The only part I'd exempt from those blanket statements is the part about what the Western religious missionaries did there in the Victorian age.

You would be surprised with Chinese strength and determination should they attempt to invade Taiwan.

Eqipment and other quantifiable capabilities are only part of the equation. Ask America in their attempt in Vietnam. Or Russia's attempt in Afghanistan.



Originally posted by jumbo2002
As Fayadi posted in offtopic about China having a real fast plane or having excellent attack fighters...

At the same time, it does not matter China has planes or fighters if somebody else has stronger planes. Even though China's military is strong, it's a ground based military. China could not successfully invade Taiwan. It simply does not have the aerial or sealift capabilities to mount such an invasion; moreover, doing so would require the redeployment of approximately 500,000 troops. This action would be highly visibile by modern satellites.

The lone option that remains is a coordinated missile strike that attempts to "decapitate" the Taiwanese government. However, if four weeks of continuous bombing could not unseat Saddam Hussein (in 1991) or the Taliban (now) I have a feeling that even 250 medium range missiles would do little to Taiwan....

Anyway lets sign peace treaty I began to think that I am silly too to post this forum.By the way this voting polls got errors,THE MODERATORS CHANGED Them so the correct votes is US present votes - 34 votes(what I am reading now is 44 so 44-34=10 the correct vote should be 10 thats the correct one.SO roughly the votes are about the same,AND DONT ASK ME WHY THE MODERATORS WANT TO CHANGE THEM I HAVE NO IDEA Either and it is so obvious that they change them!From 0 jumped to 34 (i was here round the clock that time so i knew it),the moderators have bombarded this poll anyway its ok ,its fun n games anyway

I would like to point something out:

Fayadi, your last post is the true communism your government practices. You essentially disregard the peoples votes as the fault of a moderator, and present your own statistics (which I have NO clue how you arrived at them) pushing your views. It is so funny that you did this:lol: !

Can you possible present a positive image of a government who does not trust the people to select its own leaders? Do you think it is healthy for your Premier and Chairman to be selected by only a few wealthy aristocratic government Bureaucrats, who probably have no clue what is really going on? Would you prefer a system where everybody was able to jointly select the leaders? Just curious.

~Chris

I posted this on another thread, but it is more relevent here

does any one else find it funny that China, the worlds last major communist nation (Cuba, North Korea not withstanding), has the worst labour record in the world? So much for a people's republic
:(

Originally posted by Whiskey Priest
I posted this on another thread, but it is more relevent here

does any one else find it funny that China, the worlds last major communist nation (Cuba, North Korea not withstanding), has the worst labour record in the world? So much for a people's republic
:(

And your statement was base on?


I only read some posts but I here is what I come up so far:
1. I agreed that the topic and the poll is dumb
2. many of you don't have a clue what the modern China is like. In fact no one does including me since we are not living in China.
3. Fayadi you need to calm down. Don't act like a kid. Go play some civ3 if other's opinions anger you. Remember, it's not up to you to justify and correct all the injustice and dumbheads in the world.


anyways, if you anticpated in this post I think you will find mine topic interesting:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7826

Originally posted by sonorakitch
I would like to point something out:

Fayadi, your last post is the true communism your government practices. You essentially disregard the peoples votes as the fault of a moderator, and present your own statistics (which I have NO clue how you arrived at them) pushing your views. It is so funny that you did this:lol: !

Can you possible present a positive image of a government who does not trust the people to select its own leaders? Do you think it is healthy for your Premier and Chairman to be selected by only a few wealthy aristocratic government Bureaucrats, who probably have no clue what is really going on? Would you prefer a system where everybody was able to jointly select the leaders? Just curious.

~Chris

ok I find the first part of your statment funny

as for the second part, I will try to counter your statments the way your presented them. I pick US cause they always diss us Canadians:p

Can you possible present a president who had less than 50% of popular votes? Do you know there is/was a huge corruption problem in China but if the party members are "clean", they earned 300 dollars per month? Does American stop functioning because of the election split it in half? Does all of these really matters the outcome? Also curious.


my point is that no government is perfect and different countries need different government to run efficiently. You aren't running 1.3 billion people so why not go chill and play some more civ3?

Originally posted by Fayadi
Anyway lets sign peace treaty I began to think that I am silly too to post this forum.By the way this voting polls got errors,THE MODERATORS CHANGED Them so the correct votes is US present votes - 34 votes(what I am reading now is 44 so 44-34=10 the correct vote should be 10 thats the correct one.SO roughly the votes are about the same,AND DONT ASK ME WHY THE MODERATORS WANT TO CHANGE THEM I HAVE NO IDEA Either and it is so obvious that they change them!From 0 jumped to 34 (i was here round the clock that time so i knew it),the moderators have bombarded this poll anyway its ok ,its fun n games anyway

You need to chill too. The poll result really doesn't matter cause most of would just laugh at its topic. And remember people speak English in here and nationality > rationality. Not that I have anything to do with those two since I really think the poll is dumb...

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2
Have any of you non-Chinese read the White Papers? I urge you to do so. It's really chilling stuff:eek:, when it isn't totally obtuse:confused:. The only part I'd exempt from those blanket statements is the part about what the Western religious missionaries did there in the Victorian age.

Can you summerize it for me? It's already 5Am and I'm a bit tire. Damn civ3:D

Did you know that recently the Pope offically apologize to the Chinese government for what western missionaries did to Chinese people in the early 1900? The news said the pope hoped to restablish relationship with China

:)

Well i got every reason the mods change them.At first there is 2 options one is China and the other one is US.At first China votes was 4 US votes was 0.Suddenly this poll was moved from Off Topic To World History.Another option appeared in the poll "Others please specify" .From votes of 0 it jumped to 34.Beside not many people are voicing their opinions here (except some of our talkative members here) ,it is obvious they bombarded the poll.Anyway it dont matters,call me stupid to post this poll,but i post this poll because of ...... read this site and u know why i post it!http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6799&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
Take note of BRANDON749 's speech in that site!he angered me indirectly maybe I was overexcite that time to post this poll?anyway i am wrong too!

Originally posted by Fayadi
Well i got every reason the mods change them.At first there is 2 options one is China and the other one is US.At first China votes was 4 US votes was 0.Suddenly this poll was moved from Off Topic To World History.Another option appeared in the poll "Others please specify" .From votes of 0 it jumped to 34.Beside not many people are voicing their opinions here (except some of our talkative members here) ,it is obvious they bombarded the poll.Anyway it dont matters,call me stupid to post this poll,but i post this poll because of ...... read this site and u know why i post it!http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6799&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
Take note of BRANDON749 's speech in that site!he angered me indirectly maybe I was overexcite that time to post this poll?anyway i am wrong too!

WHO CARES, THIS IS THE INTERNET, everything's possible. You are lowering yourself to people who you dismiss. It doesn't really matter the poll result cause as I just said, most sensible people would take a look at the topic and sneer. Just don't talk about the poll result, please, you aren't going to get justice in an INTERNET forum(if they indeed changed it, and no, I don't need you to state your prove AGAIN)

Do you know that many, if not most American are self-centered? As a Canadian we all surely experience this brainwahsed American kids who thing "American the greatest of all times of everything of everywhere" Blah, wait until they run out of fresh water and start beggin us :p

Some American are very intellectual, most aren't. Let me tell you a trend:
they are getting dumber over time:D

APOLOGISE LETTER:

Fayadi has apologised for posting an insane thread ,boasting about China(which could hurt China's Image) and dont think bad of Fayadi because of this thread or any other else.He is overexcited that time and he had finally woken up!Dont think him being brainwashed by Govt,he is not!He is not communist racist!End Topic!Meet each other next time in a more sensible thread cya!

good, that's more like it. Let's end this thread and discuss something more interesting.

have you read my thread yet?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7826

:D

Your English teacher needs the sack. Although I can't really speak as your English is better than my Chinese.

To say one nation or chose a nation that has contributed the most to human civilisation throughout history is IMO impossible to do.

I think your goverment is doing a great job of convincing you that China is the greatest at everything!

Ah-So! :goodjob:

What ever happened to the Egyptians and papyrus scrolls??? Definitely before china. (real history)

China great??? - For corruption, depravity, intolerance, paranoia, small man syndrome & invasion of Tibet. China may be large but its not great. The sleeping dragon will never truely rise with an inherently corrupt society. The History of china is of corruption. The majority of the revolutions that have brought down any dynasty or government in china has been to the effects of corruption(.) from the peasent revolts of pre-manchus to the republic to the current drive of the communists to try and clean themselves up.
The Chinese are creating their own messes. They created the conditions for their war with the British that lost them Hong Kong amongst other things. Unequal trade with an arrogant attitude. (China has everything it needs with in its own borders - manchu Emperor) Trade means trade. This can be seen in todays historical economy as it was then. America will change it dealings with the chinese too. Its only a matter of time.

The whole who is better than who is a moot point. BUT who has contributed the most to human society - well that can be measured and interpreted differently by who is reading the info.
There are three types of lies: 1) Lies 2) Damned Lies 3) and Statistics (Mark Twain?)

Lets look at who has contibuted the most in the last 1000 years to human kind.

Year 1000 - The Eastern Roman Empire? The Islamic Invasion? Geghis Khan? India? Native American Tribes?

Do any of these matter? War, conquest, death, change, money & resources is what drives human society for the majority of its existance and changes. Not until recent history does this change (the last few hundred years) for truely the benefit of man kind.
Medicine, standard of living, comfort & peace.

Read history people- not the television. Ask MANY questions.

didn't I said we should end this thread?

Originally posted by Tritium
What ever happened to the Egyptians and papyrus scrolls??? Definitely before china. (real history)


what about it and what does it have to do with this thread? Just because you put "real history" in bracket doesn't mean it's real history. At least make a link or a reference that support your fact.


China great??? - For corruption, depravity, intolerance, paranoia, small man syndrome & invasion of Tibet. China may be large but its not great. The sleeping dragon will never truely rise with an inherently corrupt society. The History of china is of corruption. The majority of the revolutions that have brought down any dynasty or government in china has been to the effects of corruption(.) from the peasent revolts of pre-manchus to the republic to the current drive of the communists to try and clean themselves up.


SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENT. You did? No, you need to update your history since China had evolved since 1970s. Corrupt Society? That's one hell of statment, support it please. And then you are talking about the Chinese history. Look, that's like what? 5000+ years. Which civilization wasn't in a monarchy? Wasn't corrupted? The point is, who cares? We are looking at the future, not our past. Yes, they are spending huge effort to clean themselves up, doesn't it counter your whole argument?

Oh, just because Dutch people are the tallest doesn't mean they are anything special. And invasion of Tibet? :confused: I don't know, all I can think of is North VS South.....


The Chinese are creating their own messes. They created the conditions for their war with the British that lost them Hong Kong amongst other things. Unequal trade with an arrogant attitude. (China has everything it needs with in its own borders - manchu Emperor) Trade means trade. This can be seen in todays historical economy as it was then. America will change it dealings with the chinese too. Its only a matter of time.


:confused: :confused: READ YOUR HISTORY BOOK, it was the British who demanded an unequal trade with an arrogant attitude. It's about some sort of drugs, can't remember(Heroine?) The Chinese didn't want it but the British force them to accept the trade cause it means $->Britain. I don't blame the British cause the strongest survive, right? The Chinese dynasty(last one) was extremely weak and tried to do something about it but ended up in a losing war. And oh my god, you seriously think US is getting a poor deal from Chinese trade? Are you totally brainwashed? Look how much things made in China cost you and do you think they should give you for free? :confused:

You know what's the BIGGEST problem of your argument? Assume that you are from US, you did not imply anything your governemnt had done that might not live up to the US image. Thus your viewpoint is bias.




The whole who is better than who is a moot point. BUT who has contributed the most to human society - well that can be measured and interpreted differently by who is reading the info.
There are three types of lies: 1) Lies 2) Damned Lies 3) and Statistics (Mark Twain?)


I don't know, I don't agree the topic is event a valid one.


Lets look at who has contibuted the most in the last 1000 years to human kind.

Year 1000 - The Eastern Roman Empire? The Islamic Invasion? Geghis Khan? India? Native American Tribes?

Do any of these matter? War, conquest, death, change, money & resources is what drives human society for the majority of its existance and changes. Not until recent history does this change (the last few hundred years) for truely the benefit of man kind.
Medicine, standard of living, comfort & peace.

Read history people- not the television. Ask MANY questions. [/B]

Just because we are living in the 21th century doesn't mean all our ancestors worth jacks you know. They went thru the bloodshed to create the condition we are living in. About the benefit, you miss one of our greatest invention: Nuke.

Let's not forget our planet will be burn by the sun after 500,000,000(or something like that) years. Until then, why not have peace and just forget our(I mean all countries) past and plan our(I mean all countries) future?



:p

Originally posted by Tritium
The Chinese are creating their own messes. They created the conditions for their war with the British that lost them Hong Kong amongst other things. Unequal trade with an arrogant attitude. (China has everything it needs with in its own borders - manchu Emperor) Trade means trade. This can be seen in todays historical economy as it was then. America will change it dealings with the chinese too. Its only a matter of time.
The British drugpushers who called themselves merchants were trying to push thru the sale of opium to the Chinese. They couldn't sell the Chinese anything else cos in those days, China could still meet its own needs w/o resorting to importing manufactured goods fr half a world away.
The war started cos the Manchu official in Canton seized crates of opium on a Chinese ship (flying a British flag). The Brits seized on that flimsy excuse to attk China and force open her market and ports. And the French joined in.
Trade may mean trade but we still need to ascertain what goods are being traded.

Originally posted by Tritium
China great??? - For corruption, depravity, intolerance, paranoia, small man syndrome & invasion of Tibet. China may be large but its not great. The sleeping dragon will never truely rise with an inherently corrupt society. The History of china is of corruption. The majority of the revolutions that have brought down any dynasty or government in china has been to the effects of corruption(.) from the peasent revolts of pre-manchus to the republic to the current drive of the communists to try and clean themselves up.Wow, 5000 yrs of historical existense, 2500 yrs of recorded history is ALL about corruption. What a statement! Do you, per chance, ever studied Far Eastern history previously? :rolleyes:
Maybe you shld wonder why China is large, thru out history, even today. That's cos it was (is?) great; that's why it's large. And FYI, natural disasters played as much a role, or even greater, in the peasant uprisings that toppled some of the Chinese dynasties. Corruption was also a factor but not the only one.
And in particular, revolts against the Manchus were also cos they were revolts of a patriotic and nationalistic nature against foreign overlords. The Manchus were not a native Chinese dynasty!

manchus may no thave been native but they were sinocized after a period of time and themselves became just as much chinese as the chinese.

Originally posted by Tritium
manchus may no thave been native but they were sinocized after a period of time and themselves became just as much chinese as the chinese. Under the constitution of the People's Republic of China today, Manchus are still considered a separate minority ppl. And many still hold on to this cos of the many benefits (exclusion fr the one child policy system, minority benefits etc). Even though they can't speak a word of Manchu and to all appearances and customs, look and behave much like Chinese.
And under the Manchu dynasty, they were still being viewed as a foreign ppl by the native Chinese, no matter how Sinicized. 'Fan qing fu ming' (topple the Qing, restore the Ming) was a very powerful rallying cry for the anti-Qing Chinese rebels.

Originally posted by cataclysm


Can you summerize it for me? It's already 5Am and I'm a bit tire. Damn civ3:D

Did you know that recently the Pope offically apologize to the Chinese government for what western missionaries did to Chinese people in the early 1900? The news said the pope hoped to restablish relationship with China

:)

The White Papers do not lend themselves to summarization. They are a series of position papers published by the ChiCom gov't some time ago, and touch on a great many topics. Actually, the most accurate way to describe them is to say that they allude to touching on those topics.

A basic summary would go like this:

TOPIC
"The PRC fels this way about TOPIC. We therefore do this about TOPIC. If you have a problem with that, go **** yourself. We feel that this is a perfect solution to TOPIC. If you disagree, go **** yourself." :o

or like this:

TOPIC
"TOPIC is important to PRC." [Long, rambling, uterly meaningless and totally unrelated statement, citing ancient Chinese history, the positions of the stars, the length of a Lhasa Apso's dick, and whether or not starfish taste good in seafood salad.] "TOPIC is important to PRC." :confused:

The White Papers are basically the PRC's way of ignoring, brushing aside, and completely dismissing world opinion, so that they can continue to butcher their peasants in peace.

Fayadhi posted a link to them earlier. I urge all of you to follow that link and see for yourself. If you feel that I am wrong, feel free to lambaste me for it.

...When I saw the subject I thought this might throw up a genuine discssion as to what it was that had great effects on humanity. Not just a ***** about who's the most powerful nation currently.

For example where would anyone be without fire, the wheel, paper, etc. ?

Also the sciento-philosophical undertakings of the Greeks?(And others)

I've been thinking recently about all the technological advances in the last century and wondered what really will have an impact on society.

The social impact from video recording, which gave the ability for the first time *ever* for people currently living to see generations now dead. There is no need to imagine what our recent ancestors looked like, or what they did and wore, because we can now check out our family vid albums...

Just a thought.:D

Fayadi we are watching you. You seem to post a lot of pro-China threads under the guise of 'discussion'. This site's forums are not a place to preach your beliefs on others. I am going to leave this thread open but if I find you are posting more multiple threads I will start closing them all, like I have already done to one of them in this particular forum.

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
Fayadi we are watching you. You seem to post a lot of pro-China threads under the guise of 'discussion'. This site's forums are not a place to preach your beliefs on others. I am going to leave this thread open but if I find you are posting more multiple threads I will start closing them all, like I have already done to one of them in this particular forum.

Woohoo, how evil:D

Can you do me a favor? Can you please lock the "super power" thread in the off topic section and reopen the one in the history section?

I had taken a look at the one in history, didn't know it's existence until you mentioned it. To me, it's quite idiotic although there are some good posts. But still, I like the one in this section better.

Please?:p

thanks

I would probably say China here. And The US sure as hell isn't the greatest civ of all time, fs. It's only been around for around 220 years, and has only really been of any major consequence for 80 (or less, arguably) of that on the world stage.

Originally posted by Fayadi
Remember China has not yet reached its full potential ,every intelligent man describe China as a sleeping Dragon!Once they wake up they will rock the world!

Yeah, didn't he say that, like, 1500 years ago?

Anyway, per year of existence, USA by far.

China only had a few thousand years headstart, but the USA is closing fast....

How 'bout this for the next poll?

Who will be the USA's main competitor after china?

Heh, first of all I'm doing this for fun:D

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Yeah, didn't he say that, like, 1500 years ago?


Who? And you might be right some guy said it, that was when they fought against different tribes. Guess what China won in the end.


Anyway, per year of existence, USA by far.


ok, how about the total?


China only had a few thousand years headstart, but the USA is closing fast....


please define "fast"


How 'bout this for the next poll?

Who will be the USA's main competitor after china? [/B]

How about this topic: Why there are so many ignorant American?

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Yeah, didn't he say that, like, 1500 years ago?

Anyway, per year of existence, USA by far.

China only had a few thousand years headstart, but the USA is closing fast....

How 'bout this for the next poll?

Who will be the USA's main competitor after china?That saying wasn't by all 'intelligent men' or what. It was said by none other than Napoleon Bonarparte. Exact quote is - China is a sleeping giant; awaken her and the world will tremble. It was said during a time when Europeans still held China in awe and Chinoise (things Chinese) was a fave trend in Europe.

The thing bout China is her resilience and her ability to bounce back after every national disaster or foreign invasion. E.g. remember the Mongols who completely subjugated China centuries ago? They were eventually kicked out. Others like the Jurchens or Manchus or the Toba Wei or Khitans were assimilated.

So this present period is merely a short 'chaotic' term in China's long history. Eventually, China will catch up with America, and maybe surpass her too. They got more ppl. It may take centuries if necessary but it'll come.

I think threads like this are great. They do a wonderful job of identifying who thinks before they post and who puts out a bunch of rubbish. Tempers get heated and you get to see who will bash entire groups in their anger. You also get to see who comes into a thread like this with a set opinion unwilling to acknoledge the points of an opposing view.

I vote for the English. They can take credit for America as well as the current international language. The industrial revolution started in England. Actually English culture is the root of America, Canada, and Australia. It has touched more of the world than any other culture and has influenced the world for the last 400 years. The concepts of individual liberty and personal freedom got their modern start in the English world.

Now this is just my thought. Feel free to disagree with it if you choose, but their is no need to resort to hysterics to disprove my thoughts. Nor is their any need to characterize a group or a nation as ignorant or arrogant.

Please note that I am not trying in any way to justify actions taken by a nation or government, merely to touch on cultural highlights.

China discovered Gunpower! There I think that says it all!

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Who will be the USA's main competitor after china?

Personally, I think "Who will be China's next competitor after the USA?" would be a better question. When all these hugely populated third world countries get their economies etc sorted out, they will kick backside. It'll be a long time away, but it'll happen.

Could someone change the header for this thread to 'Who is the Best, US or China?' or perhaps 'My Dad's better than yours' as it's really starting to bug me that it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with achievements of any kind by any nation.

Originally posted by JoeM
Could someone change the header for this thread to 'Who is the Best, US or China?' or perhaps 'My Dad's better than yours' as it's really starting to bug me that it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with achievements of any kind by any nation.

if we can somehow ignore posts by ppl who lives in US and China in this thread it will be a lot less pointless.

Anyways, here is a question: what government system will China adopt in the future(or near future)?

The pseudo-communism they still retain.

Originally posted by cataclysm
Anyways, here is a question: what government system will China adopt in the future(or near future)? Communism with Chinese characteristics. After that, democracy with Chinese characteristics.
I think the Communist Party will go the way of the KMT and the former military rulers of S Korea eventually. As the people becomes more affluent, support and voices for a more accountable govt will become louder. Eventually the CCP will become irrelevant IMHO and collapse onto itself. Already there're village-lvl elections in parts of China.
And then, the world hath better be ready cos the Chinese will be seriously contending with other countries. Right now, they're still only half-contending cos they got this CCP govt hobbling them ...

Fayadi can you please get a life. this is like what, the 6th topic over US vs China that you've posted.

On topic, China wasn't organized until er....1947-48? when the commies took over.
Its still not that organized.

Who is the World Super Power now? America. Who come close to America? China,Russia perhaps...........but is it? Only time can tell, yes China is advancing at a fast pace...but arent Americans advancing at a faster rate as well?

by the way...i would love some information on what kind of military,economic charts and information of what China posses so we can compare. Not trying to be offensive, but if a war brakes out now...who will win? and in the next 20 years, If Americans developed the Missile Defense system and war brakes out between these two nations...who would win?

Do anybody forsee China overlapping America in the next 50 years? then again its hard to say...anything can happen in 50 years.....It's all about scientific breakthoughs.....

Who contributed more to to Man kind???

First of all, the option should not only state America and China, cause i dont believe that those were the only countries that contributed to man kind....to find that answer we must go all the way back, and yet it will still be a huge controversial topic. No one fact can prove this point......everything invention,era played a big role.....

Who contributed more to Man kind? In wut era are we speaking of? if your question is committed to the last 50 years, it is easily answered. But i dont think this is the case.Therefore it should not, just be America or China but other countries as well......

I think if the US and china got into a war the Us would win. Ifi t was a cold war with china, the US would win.

do u know how many temples were destroyed in the civil disorders under communist regime in a time call "Cultural Revolution?"

If u know, then u know that the cultural value of China were actually lower and less influential.

As matter of opinion, I think that China doesn't have it's culture anymore. Check out Chairman Jiang, he wears western suits instead of traditional Chinese clothing. And talk about Dragon, Chinese do not worship dragon anymore. They only do that for economical reasons.

If China doesn't have it's own culture, where in the world have Chinese culture?

Originally posted by Fayadi
Old way,with High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace !It only shows US are materialistic in inventing things but no ideas to use them off.What's the use!Just for your information China successfully beaten Vietnam!US.......


ON point 2 u dont understand,by the time Japanese invasion,CHINA HAD FOUGHT WARS WITH SO MANY COUNTRIES BRITAIN,FRANCE,GERMANY,RUSSIA,And other european countries and There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!We only used inferiror weapons to resist Japanese ,it proved we are really something!
US just depend hightech stuff,if not they will just lose in every war!
By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols (though Ming Dynasty one of the main culprits for the fall of Chinese prosperity as they closed their doors to foreigners!)

I do understand it,,,,,,,it's strange that every Chinese who are as patriotic as you believe that they are the best even when they are so behind compare to other people.

I can understand why u think that way.....

1. your government restrict the media
2. your government use propaganda to brainwash people
3. you are either the elite class who has money and never see how poor chinese people live in or you are a ordinary chinese people who are amazed by the economical development chinese people have becasue ur parents or ur grandparents have never seen so much progress.
4. You are the content citizens who don't question the government, while there are many who does.
5. You don't believe in human right, because ur parents don't have human rights before, so were ur grand parents and ur ancestors.


I do understand u,,,,,I have met so many people like u on-line,,,,,,
they all say to me "As long as the government bring us money, we don't need human rights." they also said to me, " we don't need to learn the mistake we made in the history. We just have to do well in the future using necessary means"

You still don't get how China lost. It lost because it's people are
ignorant. I am a Chinese, and I am ashame of u.


here i talk about the main theme
u said that the High-tech stuffs US on Vietnam War was a total disgrace

I say that US lost because US president declare (police action) on Vietnam without good reason. In fact the production is in normalcy. This causes civil disorders, so US have to retreat.

u said that "There were no stability there with civil wars around!IT WAS A WONDER WE CAN RESIST Japanese attacks to prevent them to go deeper to our territory!"

I say this is not about people. It is a strategy Russian used to defeat German and Nepoleon, and Cheng Kai-Shek copied it. It is simple, anyone who knew history should know it. It is bascially to extent the enemy line and cut off their supplys of fresh men and foods. It is not invented by Chinese, and this doesn't prove anything.

u said that "By the mongol invasions,Europe should lost their faces because Mongol's invasion succesfully entered Ukraine and fought with the europeans.And by that time China was not in a stable position to fight mongols.Ming Dynasty is agood example of a stable China and how it fought mongols."

I say that Mongels are barbarians. They never actually controled Ukarain. They just defeat it's army and enter it then goes out without any army unit guarding it. Then the Ukarainian rebel, so they send their horseman again to defeat the partisans. Every time, they gain some money that way. In china, they actually have horseman occupy the cities, but they did not build any temples. So the chinese rebeled and build regular units to clean up the mongels.

Ming Dynasty lost to Mancurian if u remember.

:rolleyes:

Right, the title really should changed on this thread...

1. in the last 80 years the US has been the most influential of the two countries.

2. that was the last 80 years......the last 80 or so years before THAT, the English (or British Empire) was the most powerful (or influential?) civilization......and to the next 80 years? Well now, we will just have to see.....and the 80 after that?

Just some generalizations made by various posts throughout this topic that i thought were just ignorent of there own country...

1. Vietnam.......... Yes the Chinese conqered it but correct me if im wrong, didnt they fight their way back out from Chinese rule as well...... right into the hands of the French (who were just as oppresive as any other previous invaders), and then fight their way out of that too? And then thoroughly embarrass the new superpower of the era.... the US of A!

2. Oh yeah, one more thing, the Americans preaching about oppresion of the Chinese people better remember they themselves were just as bad a coupla few short decades ago (dont get me wrong im not pro-comunist china) with your civil rights towards a certain race of your own people....again dont take this the wrong way, im glad you want the chinese people free from oppression.....im hoping they like you have during the early half of this century, will fight and gain thier freedom of speech and expression.

Originally posted by voodoo chile
1. Vietnam.......... Yes the Chinese conqered it but correct me if im wrong, didnt they fight their way back out from Chinese rule as well...... right into the hands of the French (who were just as oppresive as any other previous invaders), and then fight their way out of that too? And then thoroughly embarrass the new superpower of the era.... the US of A!The Vietnamese didn't fight their way out of Chinese rule and into the hands of the French. They were already a tributary state of the Manchu Qing court of China. Then the French came and the Vietnamese emperor appealed to the Manchus for military aid. The Manchu court complied and actually sent some troops over. This was in the 19th century.

The Sino-Vietnamese troops were reasonably successful too, keeping the French at bay in territory that's inhospitable to the French.

Then came the Opium Wars and Anglo-French forces invaded China to force open the Chinese mkt to British drugs (What a way to push your sales.... :rolleyes: ). The Chinese was forced to a peace and part of the settlement was for the Chinese troops to be recalled fr Vietnam.

So the Vietnamese emperor was left to his own devices and eventually succumbed in some more years ....

I do understand it,,,,,,,it's strange that every Chinese who are as patriotic as you believe that they are the best even when they are so behind compare to other people.

I can understand why u think that way.....

1. your government restrict the media
2. your government use propaganda to brainwash people
3. you are either the elite class who has money and never see how poor chinese people live in or you are a ordinary chinese people who are amazed by the economical development chinese people have becasue ur parents or ur grandparents have never seen so much progress.
4. You are the content citizens who don't question the government, while there are many who does.
5. You don't believe in human right, because ur parents don't have human rights before, so were ur grand parents and ur ancestors.

Fayadi is not Mainland Chinese. He's Indonesian Chinese I think. ;) He's a somewhat grandiose and unrealistic idea of present-day China and Chinese history .....

I do understand u,,,,,I have met so many people like u on-line,,,,,,
they all say to me "As long as the government bring us money, we don't need human rights." they also said to me, " we don't need to learn the mistake we made in the history. We just have to do well in the future using necessary means"Human rights in China is the right to eat a meal everyday and have a roof over your head every night. You can't believe how absolutely bad things were before the Commies came to power. However, times has chged and the people's aspirations have chged. As their needs and demands become more sophisticated, their clamour for more human 'rights' will also be louder. Chinese are not all idiots, just that for the period being, actually making and spending a sizeable amt of real income is still a novelty for many.

You still don't get how China lost. It lost because it's people are
ignorant. I am a Chinese, and I am ashame of u.The reason the Chinese 'lost' is many and myriad; the most important of which IMHO is the sheer size of China and therefore it's extremely difficult to get the country to move in any direction en masse in an age when mass communications is unreliable.

I say this is not about people. It is a strategy Russian used to defeat German and Nepoleon, and Cheng Kai-Shek copied it. It is simple, anyone who knew history should know it. It is bascially to extent the enemy line and cut off their supplys of fresh men and foods. It is not invented by Chinese, and this doesn't prove anything.I beg to differ. It's a tactic espoused by Sun Zi who wrote his military treatise 2500 yrs ago. IIRC Sun Zi's treatise is required reading at West Point even today. Many of his points are still valid.

I say that Mongels are barbarians. They never actually controled Ukarain. They just defeat it's army and enter it then goes out without any army unit guarding it. Then the Ukarainian rebel, so they send their horseman again to defeat the partisans. Every time, they gain some money that way. In china, they actually have horseman occupy the cities, but they did not build any temples. So the chinese rebeled and build regular units to clean up the mongels.There wasn't much a Ukraine then. Or even a Russia. And the Mongol Golden Horde did rule what's Ukraine and Russia today firmly. Their capital was at Sarai somewhere in east of Ukraine (?). They were one of the many nomadic tribes to erupt out of the Eurasian steppes thru out history.

Ming Dynasty lost to Mancurian if u remember.Wrong! The Ming lost to the rebel Li Zicheng who caused the last emperor to hang himself. Then the Chinese general Wu Sangui let the Manchus in to fight the rebels. The Manchus went on to conquer all of China with the help of some Ming generals and a lot of Ming troops. The Manchu Banners themselves didn't have the numbers to cover everywhere.

In hindsight, the Manchus were probably China's greatest rulers. Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong were all very strong rulers and accomplished Confucian scholars to boot. The Manchus also extended China's borders to limits unmatched since the days of the Tang 1300 yrs ago. While the Mongol Yuan were rude barbarians who disdained to absorb Chineseness, the Manchus became heavily Sinicized and were virtually indistinguishable fr Chinese. This is the real power of China.

do u know how many temples were destroyed in the civil disorders under communist regime in a time call "Cultural Revolution?"

If u know, then u know that the cultural value of China were actually lower and less influential.

As matter of opinion, I think that China doesn't have it's culture anymore. Check out Chairman Jiang, he wears western suits instead of traditional Chinese clothing. And talk about Dragon, Chinese do not worship dragon anymore. They only do that for economical reasons.

If China doesn't have it's own culture, where in the world have Chinese culture?Culture is not measured by physical bldgs or clothes. Real life is not Civ 3 you know. :rolleyes: The Chinese hand chged their clothing many times thru century but each time, they did it, Chinese culture wasn't diminished but was enriched instead. ;)

I know some Westerners on these boards who actually view China with some mysticsm because of its sheer age. Chinese culture is ancient and when the Chinese people is ready (i.e. earn big bucks, lots of peace and free private times, got more rights), they'll embrace their heritage more heartily some day. ;)

I don't remember Chinese worshipping dragons ....... They prayed to them maybe for good luck and rain though. :crazyeyes

Do anybody forsee China overlapping America in the next 50 years? then again its hard to say...anything can happen in 50 years.....It's all about scientific breakthoughs..... Japan didn't make that many scientific breakthrus in the last 5 decades and yet today, they're the no 2 economy in the world, country-wise. The Japs imported so many American ideas (the Just-in-time manufacturing concept and total quality production) and inventions and made them their own. The American who came up with the JIT and total quality system that are now the core of Japanese quality manufacturing is venerated in Japan as a hero, yet is barely known in the US itself.

China is quite a bit bigger than Japan. Scientific breakthroughs are nice but you must know how to make use of them as well. ;)

Originally posted by SunTzu
I think if the US and china got into a war the Us would win. Ifi t was a cold war with china, the US would win. War isn't the only way to size up two countries you know ..... :rolleyes:

Sure the US will win. Even Japan got a bigger military budget than China's (per capita wise and also in real terms). :rolleyes:

To Knight-Dragon,

thanks for the correction on the Vietnam thing, i think i'll dig into the history books a little bit deeper next time i write!!! ;)

which i think i will cause this thread is very intresting!!

Originally posted by voodoo chile
To Knight-Dragon,

thanks for the correction on the Vietnam thing, i think i'll dig into the history books a little bit deeper next time i write!!! ;)

which i think i will cause this thread is very intresting!! But you're right if you're referring to earlier times. The Vietnamese did fight the Ming Chinese hard to get independent. The Chinese managed to stay 2 decades or so but were eventually kicked out in the 15th century.

The only other time the Chinese ruled N Vietnam (only part they ever ruled; this was the Tonkin or Annam state) was during the Han dynasty. But during this really ancient era, the Vietnamese didn't exist yet and N Vietnam could be considered Han Chinese. After the Han collapsed, N Vietnam floated out of the Chinese orbit and never really rejoined the Chinese empire, unlike other formerly Han provinces. Much like Korea too. ;)

Traditionally, Vietnam had always been a refuge area for defeated rulers in China. After the Mongol and Manchu invasions, lots of officials and others of the Song and Ming dynasties fled to Vietnam and settled there.

There are a lot of misunderstandings going here......
Since when I am proud of CCP or the governments???
Since when I dont believe in human rights?
Since when I am a content of the living condition in China now??
I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.

China vs. US?? LOL

This mongol/china thing. I don't have historical knowledge of that era, but was under the general impression that China never did "liberate" itself from Mongol rule -- that it was more to do with China assimilating its Mongol conquerers into its society. Probably just a myth, but can someone clarify this for me?

Westerners may be surprised at how FAST China is changing today. If you spend much time in China you'll get a general consensus from the population that things are going quite well. Most reports of civil rights violations are exaggerated and/or taken out of context to the situation.

Free speech, though not written within a code of laws, is coming about! Compare a decade ago with today. Today, I can swear and cuss all I want about the government and Mao Tse Tung and Jian Ximen etc. and I'll never be arrested. That is a HUGE change considering a decade ago I would have been sent to labor camp.

Factory labor? Getting way better! It USED TO BE horrid. But now, the working conditions are improving all the time. I work for a factory in China where we now have mandatory vacation time, optional overtime shifts, mandatory no work allowed on sundays, bi-yearly safety and health reviews and lots of more good stuff. Heck! The government even let us privatize just two months ago!
They just gave us managers an equal share of the newly privatized "corporation" with instructions to operate responsibly and diligently.

The consensus between government, industry and the people is a continued effort towards more freedom, personal and economic, but gradually. These is serious concern from seeing Russia's fast change to a democracy that too much too fast may tigger an economic, political, or social collapse

Anyways, I'll stop occupying space.

Originally posted by muppet
This mongol/china thing. I don't have historical knowledge of that era, but was under the general impression that China never did "liberate" itself from Mongol rule -- that it was more to do with China assimilating its Mongol conquerers into its society. Probably just a myth, but can someone clarify this for me?The Mongols were the only nomadic conquerors of China that weren't completely subsumed by Chinese culture. The Mongol rulers were very much aware of the subversive power of Chinese culture and sought to keep Mongols apart fr the general Chinese populace, seeing how things went for the former Khitan and Jurchen conquerers of China.

Then the Mongol ruling house (like all family-based dynasties) became weak after 1-2 centuries of rule. Coupled with devastating natural calamities and peasant uprisings, the Mongols then retreated intact to the Mongolian steppes where they remained a powerful threat to Ming China for centuries. Zhu Yuanzhang (founder of the Ming) didn't manage to surround the Mongols in Beijing in time and destroyed them.

One last thing - in those days, there weren't much of any ethnic conception of Mongol vs Chinese in terms of the common ppl. Many North Chinese in the millions did serve in the Mongol armies of the Yuan. And when Zhu Yuanzhang established the Ming, there were actually at least half a million Mongol and N Chinese troops of the former Yuan serving in his armies.

But the Mongols were pretty wary of the Confucian former mandarinate of the Song and kept clamping down on them, hence there's a large negative Chinese literature on the Mongols. In those times, only the Confucian gentry could pretty much read and write. And hence their written works sort of became the general Chinese review on the Mongol reign in China.

On this vote I clearly went US, hands-down. My reasons:

1) China has been very isolationist through the millenia. They never spread their culture--other civilizations had to go to them and tap them (e.g. Marco Polo).
2) Although the US has only been around 225 years, the PEOPLE who founded the US (i.e. the bold, innovative, explorer, give-me-freedom-type people) have been contributing to civilization all along.
3) A few of the things the US has contributed: the computer, the automobile, the motor, the airplane, the light bulb, the radio, the internet, automatic weapons, the atom bomb. We're talking very mankind-transforming technologies here. China's been around for thousands of years and they never even came close to all this stuff.
4) Most western countries have modelled their governments after the US (i.e. constitution, separation of powers, democracy, etc.). China, however, pretty much borrowed their government from the Soviets. While the U.S. borrowed ideas from England, France, Greece, Rome, etc., they developed their own model of government in the end--and you don't see people modelling their governments after China. Quite the contrary: look at Taiwan.
5) China's charitable giving & loaning of money for foreign economic development is virtually zero. The U.S. gives out money almost to a fault.
6) The U.S. has stopped Nazi Germany from dominating the world, followed by Imperial Japan, followed by the Soviets. Plus they broke the stalemate in WWI. Who did China stop? Certainly not the Japanese. Not the Mongols, either--the Mongols divided up and stopped themselves.
7) The U.S.'s GNP exceeds China's even though China is 5 times larger.
8) How many foreigners do you hear of going to Chinese universities to get their education and then returning home?
9) The U.S.: lots of immigration problems. China: lots of defection problems. Enough said.


OTOH, what's going for China:

1) They contributed a few things like gunpowder, silk, etc..
2) China's been around longer.
3) The Great Wall is the only man-made structure visible from outer space.
4) Sun Tzu's influence on modern war generals.

All of those things are no big deal, IMHO.

(Fayadi's quote)
"4. Commercial: Since WWI we have been the richest nation on earth and (aside from one or two arabian oil nations) we are the riches per capita as well."

Next time check the facts o.k.? There is a little place called the Faeroe Islands in the North Sea which is where I originate from, and it has a GNP per capita of $40,000 which is about 30% higher than the US. It's economy is almost totally based on fish, and the minimum wage is about $15 per hour.

It's the best place in the world to live, there is virtually no crime, there is beautiful countryside and there is only 45,000 people in the country so it is NOT crowded.

A few of the things the US has contributed: the computer, the automobile, the motor, the airplane, the light bulb, the radio, the internet, automatic weapons, the atom bomb. We're talking very mankind-transforming technologies here

Okay, before the rest of the board jumps all over you...

The computer can trace its lineage to Europe.
The Germans are going to claim the Automobile.
If by motor you mean engine, the English are going to take that one.
The radio was Marconi, an Italian.
Automatic weapons would technically belong to the Europeans again with the Maxim Gun. Gattling was hand crancked. This one is debatable. Of couse so is the utility of it.
Atom Bomb: Tremendous undertaking, lots of work, decisive, and all that, but...people are going to crucify you on how much of a contribution it was. Rename it Atomic power.

They're also going to jump on you for claiming that the US stopped Hitler. We had a lot of help.


All that said, I agree with your choice.

Let 'em jump.

BTW on the computer, that was German-born immigrants to the U.S. who invented the first microprocessor. And founded Intel. On the Atom Bomb, whether for better or worse, it clearly transformed mankind, thus I say it contributed to civilization. Even if they contributed to civilization's eventual destructuion--that's still a contribution. The rest I'll just let go.

So, let them crucify. The U.S. in 225 years has contributed more to civilization than China's entire thousands of years of existence and however-many billions of people.

Early WWII
The first progamable computer was made by Koran Zuse in germany. The Z2 and later Z3 was fully programmable but of little practical use as it took a second or two to do a single calculation. However, it contained all the elements of todays computers: CPU, register, ram, keyboard.

MidWWII
The next computer that came along was the Collussus which was used to crack the super German High Command code (can't remember what it was called but it was even more advanced than the kriegsmarine version of the enigma). That had wiring that needed to be adjusted for each task and was not a gerenal machine. But it had a practical application.

LateWWII
Eniac only came along towards the end of the War and was used as a calculator to do artilery tables and little else. However it was probably more advanced then the other two as it was both programmable and practical.

IBM soon became the dominant force in computing..that is until a little machine called Sinclair Z88 made its appearence in 1987.



Nicolaus Otto invented the first practical alternative to the steam engine in 1876 -- the first four-stroke internal combustion engine. Otto-mobile?

Karl Benz designed and in 1885 built the world's first practical automobile to be powered by an internal-combustion engine.
On January 29, 1886, he received the first patent for a crude gas-fueled car. Benz & Cie., the company started by Karl Benz, became the world's largest manufacturer of automobiles in 1900.

America's first gasoline-powered automobile was the 1891 Lambert car invented by John W. Lambert.


Personally I think America's best invention was TV and the next US invention to change the world will be that gyroscope balanced single axled person mover code named Ginger. (can't remember the commercial name now). It can move a person around a whole day for 5 cents of electricity and I think the US postal service and US Forrestry Dept will be the first customers.

Originally posted by Fayadi

I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.

Shouldn't that be 'political dissidents' instead of 'potentials'. :lol:

Originally posted by Fayadi
There are a lot of misunderstandings going here......
Since when I am proud of CCP or the governments???
Since when I dont believe in human rights?
Since when I am a content of the living condition in China now??
I am here to say that I am proud of Chinese Civilisation and they will be really different when they unlocked their potentials.


Just don't use stupid nationalism. It is what the communists use in China now to control people from being intellectual. The truth is that even if China have billion people, and if they are all dumb (this is if), China won't Win either today or in the future.

By the way, the human rights the government in China believes is "the rights to live and to have food", which is different than western human rights, which is " the right to do anything that doesn't interfere with other's rights"

Comparing these two, u'll see why some chinese people proclaim that they have the human rights, but in fact they only have food and no freedom.

If CCP sucks, reform it, or revolt against it. Don't use nationalism to deny the truth that China sucks now.

The truth is the Chinese government won't even admit that what they done in Tiananman incident happened!!!!

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
Culture is not measured by physical bldgs or clothes. Real life is not Civ 3 you know. :rolleyes: The Chinese hand chged their clothing many times thru century but each time, they did it, Chinese culture wasn't diminished but was enriched instead. ;)

I know some Westerners on these boards who actually view China with some mysticsm because of its sheer age. Chinese culture is ancient and when the Chinese people is ready (i.e. earn big bucks, lots of peace and free private times, got more rights), they'll embrace their heritage more heartily some day. ;)

I don't remember Chinese worshipping dragons ....... They prayed to them maybe for good luck and rain though. :crazyeyes

Culture is measured by physical stuffs. Civ3 is a simulation of history. why is culture measured by physical stuffs? To begin, u have to think about what culture means. A culture is a designer style that has no specific function. A tie on western suits for example, has no specific function. It is good looking. The feeling people have for suited person is respectful, serious, knowledgeable. It is a culture.

The dragon is integrated into chinese culture as the representation of the imperial family. We know that the dragon has no specific functions.