Originally posted by mitsho
I totally agree with you, Yoda and TLC that they shouldn't be in historically :) I'd never said something different (I want to say!).

But I don't know about playability?

mfG mitsho Well I dont see how they would harm the playability, right now I just want to hear what everybody means about them.

BTW do you wanna be a tester mitsho? You post alot in this thread.

Well, who's a tester right now? I'd like to, I think :)

(thx) mfG mitsho

Originally posted by mitsho
Well, who's a tester right now? I'd like to, I think :)

(thx) mfG mitsho Well aaminion and TLC signed up. BTW Louis what about you?

Count me in too. After sunday I should have two weeks with more time...

Originally posted by LouLong
Count me in too. After sunday I should have two weeks with more time... Great:D, then I just have to make sure that I get it ready for testing within the next two weeks(should be possible).

btw all testers please post or pm me an email that I can send the files to.

Ok we better move on to great wonders. Here is my list so far:

Preplaced wonders:

Ishtar Gate
Hanging Gardens
Pyramids
Harbor of Pireaus
Spartan Military Society(yes I stole that from another scenario:rolleyes: )
Temple of Arthemis
The Oracle

Wonders you can build:

Persepolis(well untill I find a better name, also you still build the actual city of Persepolis)
The Mausoleum of Mausollos
Great Inscriptions(aka Behistun Inscriptions)
Philips Reforms(macedon only)
Statue of Zeus

I will go into details what the wonders do later, right now I just need all you people brainstorming me some more wonders;)

The great palace at Persepolis, started by Darius the Great and finished by Xerxes, was in old Persian known as Tachara, or "Winter Palace". That could perhaps be a wonder name? There was also the royal Treasury, which eventually accumulated so much riches that the Macedonians' looting thereof, which sent the wealth back into circulation, is supposed to've started an economic boom all of itself.

Possible effects for the Palace could be happiness, Veteran units (representing royal guards), production (royal workshops), putting a culture-producing improvement in every city (representing how Darius' reforms made the Empire more integrated).

May I suggest the Pyramids not to have their traditional effect? I don't like the picture of the Persian army seizing Egypt, and suddenly people start to have alot more babies in Arachosia.

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
The great palace at Persepolis, started by Darius the Great and finished by Xerxes, was in old Persian known as Tachara, or "Winter Palace". That could perhaps be a wonder name? There was also the royal Treasury, which eventually accumulated so much riches that the Macedonians' looting thereof, which sent the wealth back into circulation, is supposed to've started an economic boom all of itself.

Possible effects for the Palace could be happiness, Veteran units (representing royal guards), production (royal workshops), putting a culture-producing improvement in every city (representing how Darius' reforms made the Empire more integrated).

May I suggest the Pyramids not to have their traditional effect? I don't like the picture of the Persian army seizing Egypt, and suddenly people start to have alot more babies in Arachosia. Thanks for the better name:goodjob:. I think I will make Royal Treasury another wonder;)

And dont worry most of the wonders wont have their traditional effect(I never understod why Pyramids should make more granaries anyway).

I've always assumed the Pyramids' effect in CivII and CivIII was a nod to the medieval legends that the Pyramids were the granaries Joseph had built in preparation for the seven lean years.

On further reading, I see Xerxes also built a second, even larger, palace at Persepolis called Hadish, which boringly simply means "Dwelling".

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
On further reading, I see Xerxes also built a second, even larger, palace at Persepolis called Hadish, which boringly simply means "Dwelling". I could make a whole line of wonders for Persepolis, not very good ones maybe, but cheap and many. Hmm, I think im gonna do that...

Originally posted by Yoda Power
And dont worry most of the wonders wont have their traditional effect(I never understod why Pyramids should make more granaries anyway).

I guess it was just because Egypt had Granaries. In Civ1, the Pyramids allowed you to enter any government you wanted (like Communism) before you got the tech!

A suggestion for antoher wonder (or small wonder?):
Indiantrade (or Silk route?)
Either makes one citizen happy (But I do not like this for historic reasons) or brings more gold (because of tolls). 'Take' the one which brings more to playability. I know, there is nowhere much written about Trade. And we are not sure (= we do not know exactly) how the trade was lilke then. And in addition the big trade cities were later on in history ( Palmyra, Petra). But I think, this has a matter, and why not add it?

and, to the pyramid question:
They could only be built (the great ones ;)) when Egypt had granaries, and therefore the farmers were relieved for some time of their 'work' and could work otherwise. I know, this is a vague explanation (because of the Nil, which in reality allowed to build the pyramids (the big ones in such a short time), but I think this is the way Firaxis (or who?) thought)

mfG mitsho

Originally posted by mitsho
A suggestion for antoher wonder (or small wonder?):
Indiantrade (or Silk route?)
Either makes one citizen happy (But I do not like this for historic reasons) or brings more gold (because of tolls). 'Take' the one which brings more to playability. I know, there is nowhere much written about Trade. And we are not sure (= we do not know exactly) how the trade was lilke then. And in addition the big trade cities were later on in history ( Palmyra, Petra). But I think, this has a matter, and why not add it?
Good idea, however since we have Indian States, Indian trade probably isn't a good name. Whats the exact status on the silk road by this time? Meaning, was it open..

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
May I suggest the Pyramids not to have their traditional effect? I don't like the picture of the Persian army seizing Egypt, and suddenly people start to have alot more babies in Arachosia.

Really ? Then there are a few things I should really explain to you when you grow older ! ;)

Actually as I put in another thread about wonders, albeit Pyramids as themselves are not granaries, one might consider they are the standing proof of an organized state that could store grains then mobilize workers thanks to that organization. What do you think ?

I agree with you on the supposed effect on economy of the Persian treasury when it was melted into gold Alexandrian coins but I think its build should require either improvements or resources from different "satrapies" since it was mostly built up from tributes. Basically yes we are filthy rich but because we conquered the "whole" world. Any opinion ?

About wonders : what about the Tyr harbor ? and the Jerusalem temple (requiring resource within city radius) ?

I suppose yes, but I cannot prove it. I immediately found no source that exactly says yes, but not one that says no. But I really am not sure! :)
Whyt about the effect?

mfg mitsho

Originally posted by LouLong
I agree with you on the supposed effect on economy of the Persian treasury when it was melted into gold Alexandrian coins but I think its build should require either improvements or resources from different "satrapies" since it was mostly built up from tributes. Basically yes we are filthy rich but because we conquered the "whole" world. Any opinion ?

About wonders : what about the Tyr harbor ? and the Jerusalem temple (requiring resource within city radius) ? I could make the Royal Treasury require Greeks and Jewish Community, or Phonecian City, but theres a 2 resources per building limit.

Whats Tyr Harbor? And the Temple of Jerusalem is a good one, if only someone could remember the name, cause I forgot it too:blush:

Originally posted by mitsho
I suppose yes, but I cannot prove it. I immediately found no source that exactly says yes, but not one that says no. But I really am not sure! :)
Whyt about the effect?
I would make the effect the same as the Wall Street, unless anybody has better ideas?

I might be late but I found (some time ago actually :o ) some more cities for you.
Behistun you seem to have. Others I am not sure (from the map picture).

So :
-Van (by the Van lake), Media
- Pteria (in Cappadocia)
- Daskyleion in Northern Phrygia/Lydia
- Salamine (of course) in Cyprus
- Kreta : Cydonia (West), Gortyn (center), Itanos (East).

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Good idea, however since we have Indian States, Indian trade probably isn't a good name. Whats the exact status on the silk road by this time? Meaning, was it open..

The Silk Road did not ewist as such then. It developped mostly under the Han / Romans. For the Han had both forced threatening nomads to go West + they had a protectorate over the Silk Road in what is now Chinese Turkestan.

At that time, most of the trade was to Southern India by boat and from the Red sea or the Persian gulf. Sri Lanka trade ?:D

Originally posted by LouLong
So :
-Van (by the Van lake), Media
- Pteria (in Cappadocia)
- Daskyleion in Northern Phrygia/Lydia
- Salamine (of course) in Cyprus
- Kreta : Cydonia (West), Gortyn (center), Itanos (East). Van-Not room for it
Pteria-has always been there:p
Daskyleion-already there too, though with a slightly different name
Salamine-Cyprus doesn't have room for more cities
Crete-Same as Cyprus:p

Did I mention im satisfied with the current number of cities:rolleyes:
Originally posted by LouLong
At that time, most of the trade was to Southern India by boat and from the Red sea or the Persian gulf. Sri Lanka trade ?:D Indian Ocean Trade maybe, Sri lanka...nah.

hmm, I don't know, but I think that trade had an impact and should be in there. :) But ...

Wall street effect is ok :)

mfG mitsho

Originally posted by LouLong


Really ? Then there are a few things I should really explain to you when you grow older ! ;)

This comment had been so much more fun if I had said "I don't get the picture ..." rather than "I don't like the picture ..."

Originally posted by The Last Conformist


This comment had been so much more fun if I had said "I don't get the picture ..." rather than "I don't like the picture ..."

Yep you're right. I just thought your comment so hilarious I just could not resist. But as we say in France "shorter jokes are the better jokes" so I should have stopped there rather than adding something which didn't actually "add" anything in terms of fun....
Anyway loved your comment (both technically and geographically)! :goodjob:

Ok I guess people dont like brainstorming wonders. So here is the effect of the existing ones. Comments are, as always, appreciatet.

Ishtar Gate-I havent really decided on this one yet, it should probably add to defence of the city, but thats not enough IMO.

Hanging Gardens-Same as normal. Will be obsolete in second era.

Pyramids-Produce culture, otherwise obselute almost from the start.

Harbor of Pireaus-Produces a Trieme every 6th turn. +1 Ship movement.

Spartan Military Society-Produce a Spartan Hoplite every 6th turn. Put military academy in all cities. And give a small defence bonus to the city.

Temple of Arthemis-Makes two citizens happy in the city it is build. Gain any advances owned by two civs. Will be obsolete in the second era.

The Oracle-Double happiness of Shrine. Will be obsolete early on.

The Mausoleum of Mausollos-Allows healing in enemy territory.

Great Inscriptions-Reduces corrption.

Philips Reforms-Produce a Hypaspist every 3 turn.

Statue of Zeus-Halves unit upgrade cost. Makes one citizen happy. Build larger armies.

Tachara-Increase production with 50%, one citizen happy.

Royal Treasury-Treasury earns 5%, requires Tachara

Hadish-Allow city to grow beyong 10, removes pop pollution. Makes two citizens happy. Requires Royal Treasury.

Far East trade-Pays maintenance for trade installations.

Thebes(I need another name, it refers to the city of Thebes in Greece)-Produce a Theban Hoplite every 7th turn.

Temple of Jerusalem-Makes 3 citizens happy. Produce a Jewish Javelineer every 8th turn.

I know some of the effects might seem a bit odd, but I dont want to many happynes wonders.

BTW im still waiting for the Tyr Harbor! What is it? And the name for the Temple in Jerusalem and a name for the Theban wonder.

The Theban wonder could be "Sacred Band".

What's wrong with "Temple of Jerusalem"?

Tyr Harbour? Seeing that LouLong is a frequent poster on this thread, I'd say it's a Frenchified name for the habrour in Tyre, the most important Phoenician city.

If you want a defense-related Wonder in Babylon, I'd rather call it "Walls of Babylon". They were sometimes reconned one of the Seven Wonders of the World.

Is the Mil Acad a barracks replacement?

The Tyrian harbour could perhaps produce ships. Tyre was a very important base for the Achaemenid navy. Otherwise it should probably produce extra commerce. Or both - perhaps Colossus effect plus veteran ships plus a Phoenician warship every X turns.

I'd suggest the Oracle of Delphi acting as a spy-center. Because this was it. 'it was the center of the world' which means a lot of people, mercenaries, kings, generals, etc were coming to the oracle, demanding for a prediction. They told all they knew from where they came. When the priests had heard everything, they discussed and made a decision based on all the information they had from all over the (known to them) world, giving the best possible advise to the demander! Therefore, the time untill an oracle (that's what the oracle said) was told could be a month or more.

So I'd vote for another effect: allows spy missions or something like this)

(Tyr is Tyros is Tyre ... :) TLC's effect is fine for me)
mfG mitsho

TLC:

The Theban wonder could be "Sacred Band".:goodjob:
What's wrong with "Temple of Jerusalem"?I dont want city names in the name. Thats why I also renamed Behistun Inscriptions to Great Inscriptions.
Tyr Harbour? Seeing that LouLong is a frequent poster on this thread, I'd say it's a Frenchified name for the habrour in Tyre, the most important Phoenician city.Hmm that makes sence, but I rather call it Phonecian Harbor/Port.
If you want a defense-related Wonder in Babylon, I'd rather call it "Walls of Babylon". They were sometimes reconned one of the Seven Wonders of the World.But the Ishtar Gate is part of the Walls of Babylon, and again I really prefer another name than "Babylon." Also I dont reallt need a defence bonus for Babylon, but it seems natural that the walls should give somekind of defence bonus.
Is the Mil Acad a barracks replacement?Yes
The Tyrian harbour could perhaps produce ships. Tyre was a very important base for the Achaemenid navy. Otherwise it should probably produce extra commerce. Or both - perhaps Colossus effect plus veteran ships plus a Phoenician warship every X turns.Good ideas, this is gonna be a kick ass wonder though.

mitsho:

I'd suggest the Oracle of Delphi acting as a spy-center. Because this was it. 'it was the center of the world' which means a lot of people, mercenaries, kings, generals, etc were coming to the oracle, demanding for a prediction. They told all they knew from where they came. When the priests had heard everything, they discussed and made a decision based on all the information they had from all over the (known to them) world, giving the best possible advise to the demander! Therefore, the time untill an oracle (that's what the oracle said) was told could be a month or more.Yes you are right, but I doubt it will be very usefull as it gets obsolete so fast.

The temple as rebuilt during the Persian suzerainty and before Herod's enlarging of it is sometimes known as "Zerubabbel's Temple". A bit obscure, perhaps, but clinically toponym-free.

Other unenthusiasmizing options: Jewish Temple, Temple of Yahweh/Jehova.

Does the Oracle have to get obsolete soon? It remained important during the entire Achaemenid period.

Yes, why does the oracle gets obsolete soon? (You already finished the tech tree completely?

mfG mitsho

Zerubabbel's Temple sounds cool.

Acording to my sources the Oracle startet to loose influence in the 5th century BC. Thats not true?

No, the last era isn't finished yet, I'll do a outlines update soon and post it.

I've not heard that it did. King Philip of Macedon consulted the oracle in Delphi in the 330s BC, and Plutarch - a rich and influential man - saw it as a great honour to serve as a priest in Delphi in the 1st C AD. He's written what I think is the only eye-witness account of the practices of the oracle.

Well then im going to give it the Intelligence Agency abilities, and not make it obsolete:)

And you have one happiness generating wonder less....

:)

Ok time for an update.

I only need to do two things before the test version release.

1. Make the second era tech tree, which I will start on very soon.
2. Find the correct leaders and such for each civ.

I should be able to do that this week:D

A note for the testers
Please submit an email I can send the scenario too!

What civs do you need leaders for?

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
What civs do you need leaders for? Sparta
Egypt
Thrace
Indians
Greeks
Athens

Its not a big thing, just havent gotten' to do it yet.

However GL's might become a problem

Whact exavtly is the time span for the scenario? Just to know, if Themistocles is a candidate for the Greeks? :)

and my e-mail is mtschaeni@yahoo.de

mfG mitsho

Could/Should Lyonidas be the leader of Sparta?

'Leonidas'. Well, why not?

My immediate suggestion would have been Agesilaus, who generally overbossed around in Greece in the early 4th C, and led an invasion of Achaemenid Anatolia.

Indians almost gotta be Porus, not?

The last Pharaoh before the Persian conquest was Psammeticus III. But he only reigned 526-525 - a better candidate could be Amasis, who reigned 570-526.

Whact exavtly is the time span for the scenario? Just to know, if Themistocles is a candidate for the Greeks?550BC-323BC

I would appreciate if you could just tell me the greek leader names(as im quite busy, and greek history is not one of my biggest subjects).

Isn't Porus a bit late maybe? However I cant think of anybody but him:undecide:

Yes Amasis will be the Pharaoh.

I might be able to dig up a name of a ruler from NW India from an earlier time period, but I very much doubt anyone not an expert on ancient Indian history will have heard of him.

so, the fractions (does this word exist in english?)

Sparta: Leonidas
Persia: (do we need one? I'd say Xerxes?)
India: Porus (or an earlier one)
Egypt: Amasis
Athens: Themistocle (anything speaks against this?) or Peisistratos, Alkibiades, ...
Thrace: King Philip (or I am not sure, do we have a Macedon and a Thrace?)
Greece: There are not many knows, so why not take a tyran. The one that is most known is Dionysios of Syracuse. But Sicily isn't on the map, so perhaps 'Polykrates of Samos', or one of the athens politicans that went into an exile... (pretty much all of them... :))

mfG mitsho

Why is Xerxes so popular as Persian leader? While he wasn't any particularly bad ruler, he's basically known for losing to the Greeks. I'd say the Cyrus or Darius the Great are better options.

I think you meant "faction". "Fraction" exists, but no meaning of it I can think of fits.

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
'Leonidas'. Well, why not?Because Leonidas (complete with the pseudo-Greek-letters) is a brand of Belgian chocolate, that's why!








Totally joking with you guys! :D

Y'know, I never noticed you're a Gray Man before ...

(Wheel of Time reference for the Tolkienically initiated.)

There are both Thrace and Macedon included. I need leaders for both.

Ok here is the tech tree for the second era. Not very big I know, maybe I should just fill the whole thing into one era?

I don't think so, because otherways it would be possible to research reformed military before the satrapies... (for example).
Other possible techs would be: Zarathustra (wasn't the birth of this religion in that time? I do not know, it's my feeling that says it was around that time... :) ); aristocracy; monumentalism; heroic epic; ...

They're just suggestions. I don't know a use for them, just placeholders... monumentalism could be required to build some wonders. zarathoastraism could be needed for military tradition and Architecture. heroic epic could give a unit type another hp (moral!). How? by making a new unit, looking the same, same production etc. (it works with the ancient cavalry, so... )

Remember, these are just suggestions for more techs (for a larger techtree), which i just thought of, I do not say they are good ideas. ..:)

mfG mitsho
mfG mitsho

I see one problem with Zarathoatism, it isn't exactly very generic. Maybe something like "State Religion" as a prequiste to Mil Tra and Architecture?

I thought about another tech Propaganda, comes maybe after State Religion? It would allow the Great Inscriptions wonder.

I dont want to make the unit system more complicatet at this stage of development. I rather wait untill the scenario is more testet.

When Zarathustra lived is not known with certainty, but most probably before the timespan covered by this scen.

(The name of the religion is "Zoroastrism", BTW.)

Ok hows this? I added "Communications," could need a better name(hint hint).

edit: Just realised that I want to swift Architecture and City Planning.

What's "Communications" gonna give? If it's about diplomacy, perhaps something like "Embassies", "Diplomatic Missions" or "Xenia" (the last being the Greek name for the practice of having a representative - roughly analoguous to a modern consul - in a foreign city/state).

:goodjob: Great idea!!! [plasma] :fish:

About Leaders:

Shouldn't Cyrus be the leader of Persia?

I would make Alexander the King of Greece, even though he wouldn't have been born through most of the game, but because he would have had the biggest Macedonian impact on Persia. Besides, the only other Macedonians that I know of are his father, Phillip, and some king during the Peloponnesian War known as Perdiccas.

Perhaps make Propaganda dependent on Communications? I do tend to dislike disconnected tech-trees ...

Therefore I said Philip... :)
the tech tree is ok ... :) I wouldn't take a greek name for a tech anyways... :) perhaps some other techs to the smaller branch?

But I cannot think of one.

mfG mitsho

What's "Communications" gonna give? If it's about diplomacy, perhaps something like "Embassies", "Diplomatic Missions" or "Xenia" (the last being the Greek name for the practice of having a representative - roughly analoguous to a modern consul - in a foreign city/state).Communications simply allow the civs to trade communications. Thought that would be obvious:p And I prefer generic names.
About Leaders:

Shouldn't Cyrus be the leader of Persia?

I would make Alexander the King of Greece, even though he wouldn't have been born through most of the game, but because he would have had the biggest Macedonian impact on Persia. Besides, the only other Macedonians that I know of are his father, Phillip, and some king during the Peloponnesian War known as Perdiccas.I agree 100%. Actually a lot of Macedonian kings were named Aelxander, so the name works pretty well.
Perhaps make Propaganda dependent on Communications? I do tend to dislike disconnected tech-trees ...Yeah, I'll do it just for the sake of connected tech trees;)
perhaps some other techs to the smaller branch?Eh, what?

nothing, if you connect the two branches everything is alright. I just thought, because there was a part of the tech tree that has only two techs, this needs a solution. But you did this already (I just not saw it. .. .

mfG mitsho

Here are a few leaders. Not exactly the best of the leaders because both were conquered by Persia.

Astyages of Medes and Croesus of Lydia.

Ok time for another update.

I have made the second era tech tree. The mod is now ready for testing, though I still need a few names and such, but its details that doesn't affect gameplay.

For the testers: I will send you the files tomorrow (Monday the the 23rd.)

So far only the conquest victory condition is on, but I want to incorporate domination and victory points too. However that will be in BETA 2.

What irony.. :) I'll be away a week from monday on... :) So, it'd be nice to get the beta, but I cannot take a look at it ... :)

mfG mitsho

lol, actually that's not funny:cry:

ohwell testing will be more than one week anyway, you just have to catch up:p

I'll do what I can (but next week then is fasnacht (carnaval) here, and the second part of the week I'll be away again... Hmm. ???

mfG mitsho

Given that this scen is supposed to be about the expansion of Achaemenid Persia, I can't see what would be wrong with having Astyages and Croesus (and Nabonidus for Babylonia), but if more forfuntate leaders are called for, possible ones include:

Deioces - legendary founder of Media
Phraortes - made Media independent of Assyria
Cyaxares - defeated Assyria, made Media a great power

Candaules
Gyges
Ardys
Sadyattes
Alyattes - chased the Cimmerians out of central Anatolia

Of course, all of these are very early timeline-wise, which is another argument for sticking to Astyages and Croesus.

Eh... I always used Astyages and Croesus.

Be my guest and stick to them!

Louis XIV made me think you didn't want "loser" leaders.

I was trying to think of a leader who didn't loose, but still fit in the timeline. Of course, that usually isn't the case considering the speed in which Persia conquered. ;)

Ok the Beta 1 is out. Here is what to look after:


1. AI behavior(spell?).

2. Unit balance. Is more/less units needed at the beginning. Does the AI handle the unit correctly?

3. If there is any thoughts that hit you when playing, then please write them down or something. All suggestions are appreciatet.

Finally please remember to say what difficulty and AI aggresion you play with when you post feedback;)

BTW- TLC can you provide me with another email? I get a message back that the mail wasn't delivered when I try to mail the scenario to you.

First quick impressions :

- graphic issues with 3 cities : Gaza, Jerusalem, Der
- Lindus should be Lindos
- BTW the test version is "still" in debug mod

Otherwise looks nice. You will add more "flavor" units I guess ?

Originally posted by LouLong
First quick impressions :

- graphic issues with 3 cities : Gaza, Jerusalem, Der
- Lindus should be Lindos
- BTW the test version is "still" in debug mod

Otherwise looks nice. You will add more "flavor" units I guess ?

-I know sorry. New graphics is being made as we speak.
-will be fixed
-oh yes, hope you can change that yourself;)

Lol no units has been added yet:p

Ok this is getting really annoying:mad: TLC I failed to send it to the third mail you gave me. Im gonna try and send it to the first again in 2 mins.

To those who arent TLC or mitsho(cause he cant do anything this week), that would be Lou, have you tried it? Im hopefully gonna do some serious testing today/night.

edit: I think I succeded to send it to the second email you gave me!

Ok it seems only Lou actually got the files. Dunno why mitsho and TLC cant get it working. Anyway Im gonna do an update soon, even though the first hasn't really been testet to much. I'll try to send the update today or/and(if it fails again;)) tomorrow...

Actually, my e-mail address was out of date. I had actually forgotten I had asked to be a Beta tester.

Sorry but you released the scenario beta a bit too late on my 2 weeks' "free time". I cannot do anything before thursday now.

Louis you never gave me an email. If you want to join just give it ot me:)

Im sorry I didn't send the next Beta out yesterday:blush:

Lou dont worry I know you're busy, in fact so am I:(.

I'll try to get the next Beta out today, otherwise you have to wait untill wednesday(Im not able to do anything on tuesdays).

ok,
I'm sorry to advert, but please could someone look at this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80347) ? I would be very thankful.... :) cuase I know, you know history....

mfG mitsho

Woops, wrong Lou :blush: :mischief:

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Woops, wrong Lou :blush: :mischief: Well how about giving me an adress:p

Ok I should have released the next beta today, but I'll wait for tomorrow, there is a few thnigs I want to test before releasing it.

aargh:mad:

I wont be able to release it today, private reasons. Dunno when it will be released.

OK I am back, happy to be back but not so happy about what I did before I came back (:crazyeye: :confused: ).

Anyway, I played until turn 64 but you might already have corrected some issues in the beta you are about to release.

So first global things :
- when I save (as Persia) it writes Leonidas of Persia ????
- respawn is on. Is it normal ? I killed the Medes turn 64 (and happy to be through with them) but they ain't dead .... yet (very frustrating but you might hve your reasons).
- what's the difference between port and harbor, between shrine and temples (pedias are similar) ?
- horse archers and cavalries use the same placeholder which is not convenient (maybe mounted warrior before you use the units ?).
- the Persepolis resource got exhausted. Apparently it was useless and I could not build settlers to build a city on it) ???

Civs : Babylon is culturally extremely strong ! It flipped back twice a size-3 city with 5-6 units stationned there for a few turns (I had conquered it from them) and flipped two cities I had taken from the Medes.
OK maybe I should have taken care of them early but I did and they were just too hard (for me at least) to fight while already on a constant war with the Medes.
But even before they started building all the wonders they could flip back cities very early (right Persian don't have much culture or happiness improvements to build).

Lydia was interesting. At war with the Greeks (locked war ? I did not check) it conquered most of western Anatolia and put troops into my territories until I asked them to leave and they declared war to conquer the cities I had taken from the Medes (Pteria, Mazaca and Tarsus). BTW I did not check nor reach that part (my troops were too thin in Anatolia so I am losing there at the moment) Cresus should have a kind of treasure unit that brought back to the Persian capital should add a lot of cash.

More to follow. I can even write down the description turn per turn (if you are interested).

- when I save (as Persia) it writes Leonidas of Persia ????It does the same thing with me, cant really figure out why. Does this happen to everyone?
- respawn is on. Is it normal ? I killed the Medes turn 64 (and happy to be through with them) but they ain't dead .... yet (very frustrating but you might hve your reasons).This was a mistake, already fixed it.
- what's the difference between port and harbor, between shrine and temples (pedias are similar) ?Sorry I havent written any civiliopedia yet. Its so damn boring that I always find excuses not to do it yet:rolleyes:. Anyway Harbor gives food, port gives trade between cities. Shrine and Temple are happyness improvements, shrine is the cheap one that gives 1, temple it the expencive one that gives 2.
- horse archers and cavalries use the same placeholder which is not convenient (maybe mounted warrior before you use the units ?).Good idea, will be done.
- the Persepolis resource got exhausted. Apparently it was useless and I could not build settlers to build a city on it) ???Woops, will be fixed. BTW Settlers is first available with city planning.
Civs : Babylon is culturally extremely strong ! It flipped back twice a size-3 city with 5-6 units stationned there for a few turns (I had conquered it from them) and flipped two cities I had taken from the Medes.
But even before they started building all the wonders they could flip back cities very early (right Persian don't have much culture or happiness improvements to build).I noticed this too. So I made the Ishtar Gate make 1 citizen unhappy in all cities. The Gate will be obsolete with "Empire", thus persia wont get the effect.
Lydia was interesting. At war with the Greeks (locked war ? I did not check) it conquered most of western Anatolia and put troops into my territories until I asked them to leave and they declared war to conquer the cities I had taken from the Medes (Pteria, Mazaca and Tarsus). BTW I did not check nor reach that part (my troops were too thin in Anatolia so I am losing there at the moment) Cresus should have a kind of treasure unit that brought back to the Persian capital should add a lot of cash.Good to hear Lydia went to war, didn't happen in any of my games(untill I destryoed them ofcause;))
More to follow. I can even write down the description turn per turn (if you are interested).Always interested;)

BTW: My life is pretty cofusing these days, this has, and probably will again, affect release dates and such. So far I hope to release the next beta this weekend.

I am back ... again :p

It is really difficult for the Persians to research much for I needed to put the tax slider to 90% for the 20 first turns or something to avoid going bankrupt (I did at the second turn because I had not checked).

India became quite powerful in my game ranking third after me (size) and Babylon (population and culture). Sakas made good too.
Of course I did not rage war with them as maybe I should have. But I failed to use all my attacking troops at the beginning thinking the others would have some too and I got ready for a counter-attack that actually took a while.

Units :
very weak defenders which makes the game more mobile (or at least it should) are OK. The problem is I don't think there were that many wars going on.
Historically it is true because Lydia, Babylon and Egypt had kind of shared the world and even allied against the Persian threat (after they had digested Medes that is).
The hired hoplite is quite OK, it looks strong but can be killed, even on hills, by cavalry or sworsdmen.

Any particular question ?

It is really difficult for the Persians to research much for I needed to put the tax slider to 90% for the 20 first turns or something to avoid going bankrupt (I did at the second turn because I had not checked).Yes, I decreased corruption for the Persians dramaticly in the new version, so this problem should be dead.
Units :
very weak defenders which makes the game more mobile (or at least it should) are OK. The problem is I don't think there were that many wars going on.
Historically it is true because Lydia, Babylon and Egypt had kind of shared the world and even allied against the Persian threat (after they had digested Medes that is).
The hired hoplite is quite OK, it looks strong but can be killed, even on hills, by cavalry or sworsdmen.
I already incourage(spell?) war pretty much with shunned gov. and aggresiveness. BTW the persians are going to have a upgrade from the Hired Hoplite, Subjugated Hoplite. It will be very expensive, but also qiote powerfull, it will be available in the second age.
Any particular question ?What stats were you playing with? (agressiveness, level)

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

The late era Persian Empire relied heavily on Mercenary Greeks (both to fight Athens in the Peloponnesian War, and against Alexander the Great). But Ionian Greeks probably would have been forced into the Persian army as soon as Lydia was conquered.

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Shouldn't it be the opposite?

The late era Persian Empire relied heavily on Mercenary Greeks (both to fight Athens in the Peloponnesian War, and against Alexander the Great). But Ionian Greeks probably would have been forced into the Persian army as soon as Lydia was conquered. Hmm you got a point. My reason for doing this was so all civs could get the Hired Hoplites, but only Persia could get the advanced version. Maybe I should just make it so the Hired Hoplite doesn't upgrade to the Subjugatet Hoplite? I think I'll do that..

Oops I forgot something else.

I have a pb with Babylonians building Jerusalem temple. I did not check but if they can recruit Jewish javelineer then I am even more against it. Babylonians are the one who deported the Jews (ref : the Bible :p ) and Persians who allowed them to go back were considered as saviors. So Persians could, Egyptians could but Babylonians...... :confused:

Originally posted by LouLong
Oops I forgot something else.

I have a pb with Babylonians building Jerusalem temple. I did not check but if they can recruit Jewish javelineer then I am even more against it. Babylonians are the one who deported the Jews (ref : the Bible :p ) and Persians who allowed them to go back were considered as saviors. So Persians could, Egyptians could but Babylonians...... :confused: You got a point. Will see what I can do.

I know I am coming here out of the blue, but hear me out:
A while ago, Yoda Power asked me to make some palisaded small towns for his cities in this scenario. I really, have little idea what it will be used for, except that he wanted more ‘guarded towns’ or something along those lines. Basically I took the walls from the American city, and added them to the cities Yoda Power provided to me.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/PersianPRE2.jpg

I didn’t add the ‘dirt’ to #2 yet.
Do they look to guarded for this scenario? Should I remove the outposts?

Thats great PCH:goodjob:

would u please send me the betas or finals of this mod/scenario?

i love historic scenarios and hv yet to find a good mid-east one.

thnx

email me @:

theconquerorsmap@yahoo.com

edit: on another note i have a question and its been buggin me for a LOOOONG time.... so.... how do u edit the words right beneath ur "Screen name"? mine says chieftain and yoda's says hopelessly famous.

Wow, this thread grew a lot since my rumored suicide. :)

Would you accept some digital pictures. Could be used as techs, wonders or what you might find them useful for (title?:D) :)

Unexisted-How about some wonder splashes? There is a list of wonders somewhere in the thread, I'll dig it up for you:)

Originally posted by Unexisted
Wow, this thread grew a lot since my rumored suicide. :)

Nah, I didn't think it was suicide, I thought you were just murdered in cold-blood :evil: :D Good to see you're alive and kicking.

just wanted to say that I am back now. :)

@yoda: Do you have an idea when the next beta will - realistically - be released?

mfG mitsho

Okay, I knows it's quite late in the proccess, but is there anything you guys still need help with?

Originally posted by mitsho
just wanted to say that I am back now. :)

@yoda: Do you have an idea when the next beta will - realistically - be released?

mfG mitsho what? you demand realistic dates now:o :rolleyes:

ok im sorry for all this lack. I am determined to make it in this week.

Ok. I managed to do some pictures. :)
Haven't perfected them. (sizes) But their Greco\Persian so you can have some for Persia and some for Greek Civs. You might also want to see my Peloponnesian War Wonders (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71832). :)

Or just download the Peloponnesians War Wonders here :) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Peloponnesian_Wonders.zip)

somewhere this year is also realistically... :)

mfG mitsho

Finally!

I will send the Beta 2 this evening:D

To have you back, nice it is, Master Yoda !

If I was a religious person I would think I had pissed off the God(s). Because now the email account I can use to send the files doesn't work:mad::mad::mad:

I'll give it another try tomorrow, otherwise I just have to upload it to cfc or something.

It still doesn't work, so now I just uploaded it to the cfc server. Then everybody can play it though.

The most important thing in this version is victory points. I need to know if they are balanced.

Download (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/The_Persian_Empire(beta2).zip)

ehh hello?

I'm sorry, I've seen it, but I have no comp at the moment.... :)

I don't know about the others, .... uhh?

mfG mitsho

Yoda, I'll check it out tonight. But dude, why didn't you just send that link to us via pm :confused:

Originally posted by aaminion00
Yoda, I'll check it out tonight. But dude, why didn't you just send that link to us via pm :confused: Whats the point when you can still get from the uploads folder. Thanks for checking it out:goodjob:

Just DLing it. Think I'll have the time to test it out a bit tonight.

Just started up a test as the Persians. Some initial comments:

All leaders are called Leonidas on the chose civ screen.

In-game, the Babylonian leader's name is mispelt; should be "Nabonidus".

To the best of my knowledge, Median power did not extent far into eastern Iran. Bactria is well outside the Median orbit according to all maps I've got. Still, I realize it may be necessary or desireable from a gameplay POV.

I can't build new cities till well into the 2nd Era? Isn't that gonna mean that Persepolis gets founded pretty late?

Had to slash science to 10% to avoid negative cashflow on the first turn. Gonna get better with loss of units and acquisition of cities, tho.

With some tweaking, perhaps the Lydian-Median border could be made to follow the Halys?

Jan 548. Just took Najafehabad, which I assure you is not an ancient name. Can't seem to find a fitting one ATM, however.

"Sakaens" is better spelt "Sacaeans", or simply "Sacae" or "Saka".

I like TLC's idea as the Halys to mark the frontier.
And Leonidas still appears as everybody's leader...

Anyway, sorry it took some time but now that I am rendering, I can type a few things.
This time (new beta version) I decided to play as Athenians (to change and to see how Persian AI is doing).

Starts with 10g, at 50% lose 14gpt. Research down to 40% --> + 1gpt (not great though).
The more expensive Greek swordsman (by comparison to archer) puzzled me a little until I realized they have a +2 HP bonus.
Some barbarian ships (I guess they were barbarians) were invisible (and remained so during attack). Normal ?

In Jan 539 Persians were North in Arbela, East in Zaranj. After that conquest became much slower (Najaf and another town in the East).
Lydia captured some cities that I believed were ind Greeks in the Pontus area).

I tried to go for Corinth with a bunch of Swordsman supported by siege weapons. Total disaster. Especially during counter attack. The Theban ubermensch were too many and too strong. The Macedonian alliance merely gave the "coup de grace". So I quit because I could not do much.
I should have built more siege galleys who are real efficient (and maybe too powerful). It annoys me playing as Greeks to see hoplited still as defensive units. They were the most expensive and stronger part of the army, even or especially in attacks.

One more think. I hated it when Babylonians built the Statue of Zeus before me.... IMHO it should be easier for the Greeks to get it. After all, Zeus was a Greek god, wasn't he ?:p

Of course the idea as Athenes might be only to wait for and resist to the Persian advance but ...

Probably more (another game though :( ) later ...

Thank you for your responses and questions. Im here but im busy, so I'll answer them when I get time.

I'm downloading it now, since I can play again....

mfG mitsho

hi, i dont know in what part of project are you working at now, but i give you some info about Balkans,
The Macedonians were ruled under the Kyng Amyntas I and his kingdow was very in very poor techs respect Greeks, the King DURING Cyrus II expansion was Eropus I, and only have some terrain in their domains, the region of Thrace wasnt ruled by any political or social organization only some Towns(polis) from Greeks were along the coast of Black Sea Until Istros River, the Thracians tribes were the Getaes and Odrischus, Herodotus descibe them as very good archers warriors, thracians were robbers and they going often into macedonians region for pillaging and plundering, in the west of Macedonians, there were the Ilirians tribes, during the period from this scenario, ilyrians were like neolitic civiliation, they havent a political society, herodotus dont say nothing important about their way of living, but they were very small tribes over the hills and mountain from north Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, some factorys founded by Greeks(Apolonians, Epydamnus) could be have in contact with them.....

So from Ilirians, macedonians, thraces, the seconds only have monarchy under Eropus I

good luck :cool:

thse lands belonged to the ancient Kingdom of Edom, afther these lands were subdued by Assiryan and then, when this empire went out, Egypt take it under pharaoh Necao, The New Empire of Babylon subdued anexed these lands from the egypts pharaoh Necao. Babylon ruled all the terrains until the Harbor of the Aqaba´s Gulf(in the Red Sea) look at the map attached, so all the region of Edom and their cities shown in the map, must be for Babylon Empire in the scenario (included the Temah oasis). Under by these region were the Nebateans, some of them are nomads so Yoda if you decide to put Nebateans put them as barbarians along the Red Sea Until the Oasis of Temah (those nabateans were in all arabia Petrea until the Arabia Felix, but this info is not important for you

good luck

Ok time to answer:

TLC-
All leaders are called Leonidas on the chose civ screen.Yes this is weird, I cant figure out why that happens. Anyone know?
In-game, the Babylonian leader's name is mispelt; should be "Nabonidus".Will be fixed.
To the best of my knowledge, Median power did not extent far into eastern Iran. Bactria is well outside the Median orbit according to all maps I've got. Still, I realize it may be necessary or desireable from a gameplay POV.Afaik they did not extent as far as Bactra, but MC said they did, and hes pretty smart so I chose to believe him. On a second note it works pretty well gameplaywise so I dont think I'll change it.
I can't build new cities till well into the 2nd Era? Isn't that gonna mean that Persepolis gets founded pretty late?True, however when the city is founded it will grow pretty fast(good resources in the area).
Had to slash science to 10% to avoid negative cashflow on the first turn. Gonna get better with loss of units and acquisition of cities, tho.The Persian economy grows alot when they start to capture cities(which is right from the start). Making them start with a good economy will overpower them I think.
With some tweaking, perhaps the Lydian-Median border could be made to follow the Halys?That would be cool wouldn't it. I tried doing it, but couldn't get a sollution that I was satisfied with. I dont think its that important anyway.
Jan 548. Just took Najafehabad, which I assure you is not an ancient name. Can't seem to find a fitting one ATM, however.I know, but I cant find a name either. I think I'll change it to Najaf, it may not be correct, but its better than something that ends with habad' at the end;)
Sakaens" is better spelt "Sacaeans", or simply "Sacae" or "Saka".Will be fixed.

Lou-
Starts with 10g, at 50% lose 14gpt. Research down to 40% --> + 1gpt (not great though).Will be fixed(for all civs ofcause).
The more expensive Greek swordsman (by comparison to archer) puzzled me a little until I realized they have a +2 HP bonus.Well when I get down to the civiliopedia these probs wont occur;)
Some barbarian ships (I guess they were barbarians) were invisible (and remained so during attack). Normal ?Intended. Maybe I should give them the stealth ability instead of Invisible? That would make them show when attacking, right?
In Jan 539 Persians were North in Arbela, East in Zaranj. After that conquest became much slower (Najaf and another town in the East).
Lydia captured some cities that I believed were ind Greeks in the Pontus area).Such reports are always nice(hint hint hint;)).
I tried to go for Corinth with a bunch of Swordsman supported by siege weapons. Total disaster. Especially during counter attack. The Theban ubermensch were too many and too strong. The Macedonian alliance merely gave the "coup de grace". So I quit because I could not do much.
I should have built more siege galleys who are real efficient (and maybe too powerful). It annoys me playing as Greeks to see hoplited still as defensive units. They were the most expensive and stronger part of the army, even or especially in attacks.
I agree the Athenians needs to be stronger. However going against the strongest military power wasn't exactly a good idea either;):p. BTW the Hired Hoplite is both offencive and defencive.
One more think. I hated it when Babylonians built the Statue of Zeus before me.... IMHO it should be easier for the Greeks to get it. After all, Zeus was a Greek god, wasn't he ?:pWell I think I'll give the greeks some 'flavor';) on it.

Thats all the comments I have the time to make right now...

BTW: It would be cool if you(meaning everyone) posted your save games.

Here's (http://andjo.free.fr/civ/Persian Empire.SAV) an earlyish savegame as the Persians. Not found the time to play alot this week. Media is collapsing, I'm at peace with everyone else this far. The AIs don't seem to be doing much.

Here is a group of saved files from my current game as the Athenians (as you can see by my name :p ).

This time I played on the careful side and built the Statue of Zeus before anyone else. But nobody wanted to sell me gold AND ivory afterwards :D
I am in 368 BC now and here are some remarks :
- the VP in Phasis is outside the city, is it normal ? BTW Greek bowmen occupied the spot.
- Sacred Band seems to act as CIA or did I overlook another wonder (such as Delphi temple ?).
- I got a hero called Justinian. Good except I was supposed to play Athenes.
- the Persian AI seemed to stop after conquering Media, and no Persepolis was built (other cities might be too near).
- some barbarian galleys are indeed invisible while others are NOT.
- as Athenians, the first or second turn, gold and wine near Macedonian capital become engulfed within Macedonian borderline (which is a huge blow for trading).

I will try to post a more complete report for Athenes.
What I like :
- great use of ships (blockade, naval battles, bombard (even if not really accurate, I think I understand what you tried to do), Athene can easily rule the Egean which is important. So the Greek strategic great game is IMHO well-represented.:goodjob:
The balance between treasury and units is to be well-thought. I had to give up research lately but it was my choice to develop a strong offensive army during that time. So it is hard not to go bankrupt if you don't pay attention which is IMHO both realistic and good. :goodjob:
BTW it was monarch level (sort of medium).

Of course you might have been more interested in the Persian game....

Something else about the scenario by and large.

The Persians are in locked war with the Medes so they will fight against them. But this war is :
- quite long which means Persia does not have that much time to build up its cities, especially the ex-Mede ones. So it is normal it needs to stop for a while, developping its cities and stockpiling new troops. Don't forget other countries are mostly stockpiling units. In my tests I rarely saw AI declaring war on one another except when I started making military alliances. So after defeating the Medes, the game more or less stops for the Persians. A trigger like last Mede city falls --> Babylon, Egypt and Lydia ally and declare war on the Persians (historically accurate) would have been useful but since it cannot be worked out, maybe you should make conquest of the Medes easier (so that Persians are not exhausted after the war and can take on other powers such as Babylon without army ratios being too low on their side) and/or make Egypt in a locked war with Persians too, but blocking the land path between Africa and Asia with unmovable Babylonian units, thus forcing Egypt to at least get a ROP, preferably an alliance with Babylon to cross its territory somehow.

- enough for the Persian to get enough VP to be the leader. So that the Persian AI (if it is the AI of course which it does not have to be) actually stands where it is after defeating the Medes (which usually happens largely into the second half of the game) and can just wait and avoid wars.
When I playtested as the Persians, Lydia attacked me probably because the VP were high enough on my side to be the best, even without reaching the conquest/domination percentages) and because the AI is probably programmed to hassle the human player somehow but if neither the Persians nor Lydia/Babylonia are played by the human, it seems the AI is fairly happy to let the Persians win by default.

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Afaik they did not extent as far as Bactra, but MC said they did, and hes pretty smart so I chose to believe him. On a second note it works pretty well gameplaywise so I dont think I'll change it.

Did I say that... oops. Bactria was independent of Media. But when Cyrus took Media, Bactria voluntarily joined Cyrus, but no one is sure of the reason. It might have been because the Bactrians knew they were next because Cyrus would have wanted to unite the two Arians (ie; Bactria and Media/Persia).

Where in the thread is the latest version download?

I just got a chance to play it. I seemed to be doing well as Persia, but Media has a really large land, and War Weariness is starting to be a factor (the fact that I lost Nineveh and some other city for a turn before capturing it back is obviously not a smart thing). As mentioned before, research is a pain because I could only do min-sci without loosing money.

I think I solved your Leonidas problem, but this is only a theory (I haven't tried it). Go to player properties, and delete each player's "name" (Leonidas is the first name). I think that's the reason its being used for all of them (The Conquests leave it blank).

I attach a save-game as the Persians immediately after the fall of Media. Median resistance was very weak, but the large amount of territory they have made the conquest long-drawn anyway. My only other war yet was a short one against the Saka, who lost Margiana.

Courses of action I contemplate ATM are crushing the Saka (could be harsh on my rep, tho), or "negotiating" border revisions with the Indians (Bampur, Kandahar) and/or Indep Greeks (Xanthus and the Black Sea cities). I don't feel strong enough to take on Babylonia yet, but that has to be the big goal for the future.

It's very hard to keep science up, esp with WW.

Yeah, the WW was a killer in this scenario. Media takes forever to kill (they aren't much compitition, but they have sooo much territory). I just finished them off a turn ago, and my cities are significantly happier. I feel strong enough to take on everyone, but I don't think I actually can breeze through anyone. I guess I'll take on Babylon, though, since their territory will be very useful.

I'm not sure how good victory point scoring is, because I haven't played enough. I know I can't win by just sitting down and using my vp locations, and I'll have to keep attacking, but I want to conquer the area Persia had anyway.

I've not played this scen any for a while, for various reasons, but I just started my old save up again.

I just had "border incident" with the Indian States, which netted me Bampur and Kandahar, as well as Hired Soldiers and Siege Warfare.

During this little war, the Lydians declared war rather than withdraw their troops from my Anatolian possessions. I was hoping they'd withdraw, but miscalculated and now ended up in a war I didn't really want. Oh well, Lydia's excuse for an army shouldn't last too long ...

Naturally, something has to go wrong.

The Saka backstabbed me, somehow managed to capture Bactra (a redlined horse archer attacking across a river shouldn't take out a Vet Arstibara, dammi!), and burnt it to the ground.

I accepted peace in return for Mathematics with the Lydians, and now fully intend to wipe out the Saka.

Vengeance is mine! Dec 486, and the Saka are no more!

Perhaps I'll get more turns in later tonight.

I decided to take out the Indians in have my back clear before the inevitable showdowns with Babylonia and Lydia. Charsada fell quickly, but a massive assault on Taxila backfired badly. I've lost my initial advantage, but pure size is gonna wear the Indians down if I can keep peace in the West.

The Lydians and Greeks are amusing themselves by fighting in Anatolia. No cities have fallen yet, and for the time being I don't care both sides violate my territory - I don't want to get into a war here.

Dec 436 BC: The Indian states are now subjected to rule of the King of Kings!

Next goal is Babylonia ...

The Lydians finalyl captured Xanthus, but apart from that nothing much is happening between the AIs. The Lydians also launched a big attack on Mytilene, but were repulsed.

I just entered the 2nd era.

Ok I really owe you people an update.

My life was/is getting more and more busy, and I simply did not have any time to put into this project. Lately I've been experiencing increasing headaches, it seems I got stress. Thus I have decided to stop this project. Its quite sad as only two things needs to get done before its finish(or atleast on a playable stage). Those are:

Adding all gfx
Writing all the civiliopedia

If a team of you people who have been helping me making this want to continue then please respond. You could choose a "leader" (I suggest either TLC or LouLong), who I would then send all the latest version too.

I would like to continue helping, but I still don't have a lot of time, nor a conveniant mail source. Don't out me on the mail list for now, but I will try to give some suggestions based on the previous version.