Im looking for help with my new scenario, The Persian Empire. I already have a few things planned.

The Map
I have to decided to make a new map for this project, as I cant find any that fits my needs. I have not startet working on it yet, because my computer has been having some problems, they should be fixed now.

The Civilizations
Many of the civs are obvious, the place Im not sure what to do is with the nomadic civs, Schytians, Masagatae, Colchis(sp?) etc. Im also not sure what to do with India, I cant find out what civs were in the Indus regions around 550BC, so please help:)
The civs that I already have decided on is:

Persia
Babylon
Media
Lydia
Athenians+allies
Sparta+allies
Neutral Greeks
Macedon
Thrace
Egypt

Units
I have most unit stats ready and I will post them soon. I have decided to use some mercenaries, as they made quite a big part of the armies at the time. So far there will be: Greek Mercenary Hoplites, Phonecian Ships and Assyrian Horse Archers. Jews were also used, but I cant think of a use for them. I would also like to hear what other nationalities the mecenaries had.

The Tech Tree
I have decided to split the scenario up into two eras. The first simulates the expansion age of the empire, and the second the period of non-expansion, and the downfall.
I have attached my sketch for the first age tech tree, but as always im open to suggestions.

Is your mod/scenario going to be ancient persia+middle ages zoroastrist persia+islamic persia?

by default of the civ list its ancient persia- which means Zoroastrian ;)

anyway, interesting idea Yoda, I look forward to playing as th greeke, and crushing the persian empire ;)

The scenario is in the time of the Achaemenid Empire=anciant Persia.

Xen-Im probably going to make Persia the only playable nation:p

btw I cant get Conquest installed! It stops at 26% and gives me an error. This is stupid, because I had it installed before my computer crashed:mad:
edit-seems there was dirt on my cd:blush:

Ok here is the unit list with stats. As you can see I havent finished it yet, and comments are apreciatet:)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/persia_units1.gif

The doc file is attached below:

Good idea Yoda :yeah:

This should help you with the Steppe Tribes. This map also has the original Persian names for regions and tribes.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/persia_map.gif

The Azata (Nobility) heavy horsemen perhaps, the Bandaka (Bondsmen) or Arštibara (spearbearers) regular Persian spearmen, Takabara (taka-bearers) subject/mercenaries light javelinmen like Peltastes but also used as spearmen, the Amrtaka (Immortals), the Sparabara (with bow and a large shield) archer pairs with a large shields made up the majority of the Achaemenid army, the Kardaka (mercenaries) can be both Hoplités, Saka, etc.

Thanks Cimbri:goodjob:

Azata: Could be some Persian Cavalry that starts as elite.
Bandaka/Arštibara: I could rename the Persian Spearman to this?
Takabara: Could be a unit with same stats as Spearman, but with defencive bombard?
Amrtaka: I had originally decided not to have "special" forces, but then I couldn't have the Azata either. Maybe Immortals could just be some elite Takabara?
Sparabara: These would be nice to have as a Bowman flavour, but someone would have to make them.

No problem :goodjob:

Azata just means nobility, the word has nothing to do with horsemen, but many nobles served as heavy horsemen.
Arštibara should be the name for your national spearmen, bandaka just means bondsmen, and all Persian citizens were bondsmen of the king. Except the those classed as Mariaka, they were slaves.
Takabara could use the peltast graphics of our resident Creation-god Sir Kryten, but they also served in hand-to-hand combat. So I guess you could also use the spearmen with 1 in bombard.

Azata: Maybe they could be small armies who can only have 2 units. They could be createt by a wonder every 15 turn or so:hmm:

Takabara: Im already using the Peltast as Peltast for the Macedonians;)

Corruption and Provinces:
Each civ will have their own goverment. Persia will have "Empire". Corruption will be rampant. "Rampant you say, but thats awfull!" Dont worry because Persia can build "Satrapies" aka provinces. Each Satrapy will work as a Forbidden Palace.
The different Satrapies will be:

Satrapy of Dascylium
Satrapy of Sardis
Satrapy of Egypt, locatet in Menphis
Satrapy of Transeuphrates, locatet in Sidon
Satrapy of Babylon
Satrapy of Elam, locatet in Susa
Satrapy of Media, locatet in Ecbatana
Satrapy of Persis, locatet in Persepolis
Satrapy of Pathia, locatet in Zadracarta
Satrapy of Aria, locatet in Herat
Satrapy of Bactria, locatet in Bactra
and last Satrapy of Arachosia, locatet in Kandahar

This is looking better and better! I'm really looking forward to this!

Nitpick: There's a typo on that map; "Hamgatana" should read "Hagmatana".

I think by the time Persia has any impact at all on the Middle East, Chariots were obsolete (I can't be sure, I forget when Assyrian texts first mention Medes and Persia).

Speaking of Assyria, why aren't they in the game? :D

I do not know when the cuneiform texts first mentions the Medians or Persians, but a "Kurash of Anshan" (ie, "Cyrus of Persis") is mention in Assyrian texts in the 7th C BC. By this time, chariots were indeed largely replaced by cavalry.

However, the Persian Emperors usually rode in chariots when personally present in battle, and the same seems to be true of other high-ranking personages. And there's always those scythed chariots from Gaugamela, which indicate that the art of charioteering was kept alive also as a method of actual fighting.

Assyria, presumably, is out of the game on account of being wiped out before it starts. The fall of Harran was already in 609 BC.

Edit: Which makes one wonder about that Assyrian mercenary unit. I cannot recall hearing of Assyria as anything beyond a geographical term between the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire and the adoption of the ethnonym by the modern-day Assyrians.

I was waiting for a rise of Persia/height of Persian power scenario. Thanks, Yoda Power!

Nice idea my friend. Good luck (sorry to hear about MEM though).

Now, you should be careful with spelling this time (triReme for instance ;) ). Satrapies are very good idea (but they are locateD !).
For mercenaries, maybe you could make them cost money while "nationals" don't and make costs really expensive (I know it is FAR from perfect...) or require "gold".
BTW trade to money should be limited but silver or gold mines should be extremely generous (that is because of his gold from the Pactol river that Lydus was so rich and that he became the Persians' first target as well...).

I agree completely with the last conformist about chariots (save for the infmous (probably too much) scythed chariot. I had an idea for a celtic chariot (used by nobleman) that might be used here (though I did not check fully how it worked). Why not give it the "radar" flag. Since it was mostly used by chiefs, kings,... it would of course include scouts. Besides IIRC radar gives a +1 bonus to fight which could show the moral effect of the leaders being present. At the same time the units should be quite weak in actual fight. Just ideas....

Another one (for improvements I guess) could be the paradaiza (gave us "paradise"). Privates gardens, palaces and harems where all wordly pleasures were gathered and were roses were really developped as a cultured flower). Not sure about benefits though.

celtic chariots weren tused in abttle, they wer emerelly the transports for the celtic nobility to and from the battle/ heated engagements in a battle

The Last Conformist, I didn't see when it started.

LouLong, I'm pretty sure Radar just allows you to see further.

Btw, Yoda, as far as the Indians go, by this point, they are pretty much a collection of regional rulers.

At the Battle of Hydaspes, the Indians had war elephants, and from what I've read about Indian warfare (from a book on that subject actually) they had them well before that as well. They also had war chariots, archers, and a number of other standard stuff. Nothing too outlandish. I actually have the Hindi words for these things written down some where... I'll review my notes. :)

Yoda: You are progressing with the map?

Yay:yeah: I got replies.



Chariots:
Ok I was under the impresion that Chariots were still widely used by this time. It seems they are not, so I will replace them with cavalry, stats will remain the same though because they are needed for balance. Then I also have to change the tech tree:ack:

TLC:
Edit: Which makes one wonder about that Assyrian mercenary unit. I cannot recall hearing of Assyria as anything beyond a geographical term between the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire and the adoption of the ethnonym by the modern-day Assyrians.I must admit that the only place I've seen Assyrians mentioned as mercenaries, were in a documentary on the Discovery Channel. If they werent used I can ofcause change it.

Lou:
Now, you should be careful with spelling this time (triReme for instance ). Satrapies are very good idea (but they are locateD !).Well I will have to make a native english speaker go through the scenario when its up for testing:p

For mercenaries, maybe you could make them cost money while "nationals" don't and make costs really expensive (I know it is FAR from perfect...) or require "gold".Actually that is what I had planned, just forgot to mention it;)

BTW trade to money should be limited but silver or gold mines should be extremely generous (that is because of his gold from the Pactol river that Lydus was so rich and that he became the Persians' first target as well...).You mean that there shouldn't be many commercial resources, but they should be "very good"?

I agree completely with the last conformist about chariots (save for the infmous (probably too much) scythed chariot. I had an idea for a celtic chariot (used by nobleman) that might be used here (though I did not check fully how it worked). Why not give it the "radar" flag. Since it was mostly used by chiefs, kings,... it would of course include scouts. Besides IIRC radar gives a +1 bonus to fight which could show the moral effect of the leaders being present. At the same time the units should be quite weak in actual fight. Just ideas....Celtic Chariot? This is a middle eats scenario.
It gives me an idea though, I could make a "nobles" unit, whitch is a chariot. You get one every 8 turn or so, it could be something like 3.3.2 and Radar. That way Chariots would still be there. How does people like that idea???

Another one (for improvements I guess) could be the paradaiza (gave us "paradise"). Privates gardens, palaces and harems where all wordly pleasures were gathered and were roses were really developped as a cultured flower). Not sure about benefits though.I was planning a gerden improvement, but I havent begun thinking serios about buildings yet. Untill then just post whatever ideas you have:)

Dom Pedro:
Btw, Yoda, as far as the Indians go, by this point, they are pretty much a collection of regional rulers.

At the Battle of Hydaspes, the Indians had war elephants, and from what I've read about Indian warfare (from a book on that subject actually) they had them well before that as well. They also had war chariots, archers, and a number of other standard stuff. Nothing too outlandish. I actually have the Hindi words for these things written down some where... I'll review my notes. Thank you:goodjob: It would be really nice to get some cities in the Indus by this time. I think im just gonna make one India civ.

Costa:
Yoda: You are progressing with the map?I startet to make the outlines. I will post a preview later today:)

Originally posted by Yoda Power


Chariots:
Ok I was under the impresion that Chariots were still widely used by this time. It seems they are not, so I will replace them with cavalry, stats will remain the same though because they are needed for balance. Then I also have to change the tech tree:ack:

They were used, just not THAT much. And if Kryten releases it, a Scythed chariot would definitely be a great addition.

Originally posted by Yoda Power

Lou:
Well I will have to make a native english speaker go through the scenario when its up for testing:p

Cough :o cough

Originally posted by Yoda Power

You mean that there shouldn't be many commercial resources, but they should be "very good"?

Yes, kind of. Gold or silver mines could have a dramatic effect on treasures, much superior to the trade "roads" would provide. Just my opinion anyway.

Originally posted by Yoda Power

Celtic Chariot? This is a middle eats scenario.
It gives me an idea though, I could make a "nobles" unit, whitch is a chariot. You get one every 8 turn or so, it could be something like 3.3.2 and Radar. That way Chariots would still be there. How does people like that idea???

Sorry, I just said I thought of that possibility for a celtic chariot and thought it could be used here too (the ability, NOT the celtic chariot). Now it seems I mistakenly mixed radar ability and radar tower effects. But otherwise in my mind, they would rarely fight but more act as morale "support" troops.

Here is the basic outlines of the map:)

Lookin' good :goodjob:

Cimbri the Tuborg avatar is much better, og det nu!

More progress(resized to 25% of the original):

So the map is going to be smaller? I like that :)



And, hey, the Tuborg avatar made me thirsty. It had to go. :p

No the map is not going to be smaller, its the pic thats been resized:p But dont worry my own computer cant run big maps, and I dont wanna make a scenario I cant play;)

And thirsty or not, it's still one of the best avatars ever:goodjob:

Re: Assyrian mercenaries: I think they're better left out. While the Achaemenid army no doubt contained troops from the middle Tigris area, I doubt they identified themselves as Assyrians.

In Persian usage Athura "Assyria" was a vaguish term refering to northern Mesopotamia and bits of Syria.

Ok then I'll leave them out. Any responses on Jewish mercenaries?

Since I made the wonders for the Peloponnesian War Scenario, I have some Persian soldier at my despair. If you want any wonders, maybe I can help you?

I unfortunately don't know anything about them, really.

Herodotos has alot of colorful descriptions of troops from different parts of the Empire. Could perhaps be worht leafing thru

Unexisted-I was actually planning on sending you a pm about that when I got down to wonders:)

TLC-To bad, I will google it later and see what I can find.

Everybody-Unexisted brings up a new topic: Buildings! Im a little weak all I can think of is Temples, Amphithearter(for the Greeks), Satrapies and the improvement LouLong mentioned(which I forgot the name of;))

Ok, PM me :D

nah I got your attention anyway:p

BTW since the Satrapies are small wonders those could need splashes, only problem is that I have no idea how they could look. I'll try to find a sollution.

Did you do another map?
I remember a diferent map, from Britain to India...
Diagonale angle... That cuts north Russia...

Mongolid Cow did that map:) I have made several other maps though.

Yoda Power, the map outline looks good :thumbsup:

About the Satrapies, i have some pictures in my books, i will try to scan and put here... But it's not so diferent of any regular mesopatamian building...
In thruth, the Satrapies are more centralized in the figure of the man that hold the title than the building when they rule the region.

I know the map did by Mong Cow, but the one that i said is diferent... Diferent perspective... I'm searching for it, but i just don't see it in anywhere!

Thanks MC:)

Costa-Cool, I agree Satrapies arent really buildings, they are really provinces.

The wonder splash for a satrapy could simply be a map of the region in question.

And you could force their location via the "resource in city radius" prereq and invisible 0f0s0c "province" resources. Eg, you'd have a "Bactria" resource underneath Bactra, and a "Media" resource underneath Ecbatana/Agbatana/Hagmatana.

TLC-Great idea! It could look like an old map of the region.

It's sad that we cannot do an unit "the Satrapa" that have forbiden palace efects over the city that it's fortify, because in thruth the man that represent the emperor was the diference...

And the Britain-India map with diferent perspective, wasn't you that were mading?

I think we need someone to make an "Immortal Cavalry" to this scenario...
An Immortal on horseback, using spear and carring a bow...

And the Britain-India map with diferent perspective, wasn't you that were mading?Sorry im not sure I understand you:confused:

Lab Monkeys Arab Knight is a mix of the Rider and the Immortal, I think it's good enough, but more units are always appreciatet ofcause;)

I remember that CTP2 had a 'Fall of Persia' scenario there they had some 'arabs' and other barbarians. It would be cool, if you bring them in with few cities and army to rampage to you. I'm talking of the city of Sanaa for example. But also other clans in the northern region (all the -stan's states). But you'd have to disable building cities for them. Just a suggestion

mfG mitsho

Arab knight is an amazing unit, but i really use it like a medieval arab horseman... The appearence of it is more close to ancient cavalry ( 330 BC) or medieval (800 ad)?

Yoda Power, please PM when you need them, I going to unsubsribe to this thread, I don't want all these excess emails :)

mitsho-Arabia is going to be impassible, so there will be no arabians.

Costa-I think the only problem about the Arab Knight is the sword, but the clothes looks fine with me.

Unexisted-Sure:)

Talking about mercenaries, the most usual mercenaries in the persian empire were the greeks. I remenber to read about greek mercenaries fighting against Alexander the Great.

I want to compile a list of resources. This is what I got so far(in random order):

Iron
Horses
Gold
Silver
Timber
Oils
Incense
Wool
Oasis
Cattle
Wheat
Fish
Ivory
Spices?

and..

le' map update:

The map's looking good this far.

I don't know if the spice trade was of any importance already back in those days, but Spice might provide an extra incentive to track all the way east to India.

Oh, and no reaction on my suggestion for "province" resources (post #41)? I still thinks it's a nifty idea ...

TLC-sorry I didn't see that part. Actually thats how I planned to do in the first way;)

Great minds think alike! :D

ok, but wouldn't it be realistic, if some barbarians were in Arabia?

mfG mitsho

Well I havent heard about battles between the Persians and the Arabs so I dont think so.

BTW here is the civ list:

Persia
Media
Babylon
Lydia
Athens
Sparta
Neutral Greeks(please help me with a better name)
Macedon
Egypt
Indians
Masagatae

Scythia will be barbarians since they were never conquerd, and I decided to use Conquest victory.

You could call 'Neutral Greeks' plain old Greeks :D Also, Masagatae is spelt Massagetae.

Also, if this is about Cyrus the Great's Persia, Media should already be conquered by them as they were overthrown and as the last Median king was an a-hole the people and armies joined Cyrus against him (probably the reason why the Medes weren't massacred by the Persians). IIRC, Cilicia was also a kingdom of the time.

And the map is looking good. Just remember though that until sometime after Alexander the Great coqnuered Persia, the Amu Darya river also flowed into the Caspian Sea (check the map posted on page one of this thread about one of the two most likely courses of the river)

Ok I'll put Cilicia in too.

Media will be in, Cyrus did conquer/annex it in only one year, but there was still battles between his and Astyages armies. Also it wouldn't as fun if you start with 1/3 of the landmass.

Ok here is the new unit list, no picture this time sorry.

Yoda, you right. Greek mercenaries fight on persian side.
In thruth some greek cities of asia minor (west turkey) fight against Alexander domination with own troops... I don't remember but i think Halicarnassus was one...

Kriten units are essential in my opinion...
Hired Hoplite!!!

Suggestion re: the civs list: drop the Massagetae in favour of a generic Saka/Sacae civ; the Massagetae were only one tribe among many, and apart from their role in Cyrus's death, they were not particularly more important than other ones.

(The -sage- bit of their name, btw, is almost certainly a maiming of "Saka"; the name may mean the "Moon Sacae"; Old Persian Mâh-Sakâ.)

One could argue that Scythians and Sacae should be merged as one; they're just representing different ends of the same continuum of nomadic tribes (even the names could be the same; both may derive from Scythian Skudat), but for gameplay purposes I think it's better to treat them separately as you propose to.

hmm I see your point. So I should have a civ called what? Saka? Also who should be the leader? :)

The map is almost done, just need to add some forest and a few rivers:D

Well, 'Saka' vs 'Sacae' is just Old Persian vs Latin. I personally prefer the former, for no objective reasons, but one could argue it's more appropriate in a scen centering on Persia.

Leaderhead? Well, not a lot of Sacaean leaders are known; the Massagetaean queen Tomyris - who supposedly threw Cyrus's head into a pool of blood after his death in battle against the Massagetae, telling him to finally slake his thirst - is about the only one I can think of.

A quick googling didn't turn up any other candidates, but did return a post in a mailing list archive by someone trying to connect the Indian Jats to the Goths!

The maps looking good from the screenie. Only, isn't there a bit to much mountains in the NE? Also, Oman shouldn't be so severely desertificated; it had a respectable civilization in the last millennium BC, and was apparently incorporated in the Achaemenid Empire for a while (under the name "Maka", which in the form "Magan" was used for the region already in Sumerian times). But that's minor points about marginal regions; on the whole it looks very good.

I Queen would be cool, they dont appear that often in scenarios. I could use the anciant Theodora head.

There is alot of mountains in the NE, but it's intended, it's to create a natural border rather than the normal one. Oman under Achaemenid control? Are you sure you arent confusing it with the Sassanian empire? I made this less fertile than normal because it didn't play any role afaik.

I refer you to this webpage:

http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/maka/maka.html

Nice site:goodjob:

Im not sure what to do with Oman though:hmm:

Are settlers going to be allowed? If yes, you could just leave it moderately infested by Barbarians, and allow players to try and colonize it if they want to. It could be given an unique lux to be made more attractive.

I decided to allow settlers, but first from the second era, and cities can only be founded on Grassland and Floop Plains. Just leaving Oman as a colonizeable land strip seems fine in my oppion.

BTW I read about Cilicia on the website you posted. To me it seems they werent really a state, just some tribes that exportet Silver and Iron. So I thought about just making it a Babylonian colony. Afterall if it was a civ it would only be one city.

Livius.org is great, isn't it?

Well, Cilicia had withstood a Babylonian attack only a few years before the scen starts, so giving them to the Babylonians seems a bit weird to me. Livius suggests it may have been under Median protection, so perhaps give them to Media instead?

I'll give it to Media, I admit I wasn't reading it very carefully;)

There's map already...very like the one you're doing. Here it is if you missed it:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=30568

If you didn't, then fair enough :p

I did know about that map. It's just not very accurate and I felt I could do a better one:)

I assume no-ones going to be in Ciscaucasia? For the scen, you could make the entire area off-limits by impassable LM terrain.

Also, I do hope the map's gonna be independently available!

You assume right. Though you cant make LM terrain impassible, unless the original terrain also is impassible. However you cant build cities north of the Caucasus, and its gonna be filled with barbs.

BTW what should I use as Cavalry? The Horseman from civ or Utah's Beduin Horseman?

You can't LMs specifically impassable? How lame ...

Someone's made a horse archer unit which looks pretty Mesopotamian; might be worth checking out.

The reg'lar Horseman graphics should be good enough for some basic cav unit, methinks.

Do you mean Krytens eastern horse archer? If so, im already using it.

BTW the map is released for standard Conquest.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72554

I think Kryten is making a very Persian looking Horse Archer as well as this one. (it has Persian Imortal type clothes).

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
I think Kryten is making a very Persian looking Horse Archer as well as this one. (it has Persian Imortal type clothes). I think so too, the only problem with Kryten is the time he takes to complete a unit;)

I can't find it either. I thought he posted it in the Peleponnesian War thread (but I must have missed it while scrolling through 40 pages :crazyeye: )

@yoda, I thought, some arab tribes were 'raiders' in that time.
But, ok, it could be wrong! (Did Sanaa already exist in that time?)

mfG mitsho

Ok I better make a little status report.

So far these are the civs that I have decided to include:

Persia
Media
Babylonia
Lydia
Athenian Alliance
Spartan Alliance
Independent Greeks
Macedon
Egypt
Saka
India
Thrace(im considdering replacing them with barbarians)

First the plan was to make Persia the only playable nation, but im reconsiddering. So I decided to make the Athenian Alliance and Spartan Alliance playable, aswell as Macedon and Babylonia.

BTW, I have startet placing cities.

BTW2, all Greek and Macodonian offencive units will have the amphibious ability.

I have run into a problem, cities. I simply cany find enough cities for Persia. So I presume there wasn't any cities, maybe I could use something like tribes instead?? In that case I need help for i cant find any tribes from the Persia area either:ack:

Sorry, can't help, but can you explain me, which colour is which civ? I don't have in my mind that moment, what dark green is? red is persia (or dark red?). I'm sorry.

mfG mitsho

oh yeah sorry.

Yellow-Egypt
Dark Green-Babylon
Dark Blue-Spata
Blue-Athens
Light Blue-Independent Greeks
Light Green-Macedon
Red-Media
Dark Red-Persia
Orange-Saka
Brown-India

and purple is Lydia, right?
I wonder, if you should include a one city civ between Lydia and Babylon. It was heavy populated, I think?

but it looks awesome.. .:)

mfG mitsho

Yes Lydia is purple.

I assume you mean Cilicia, it will be Median:)

@yoda- if you want cites in the area you need from the Parthian era, I can have a map for you, the problem is, that those cites are from the parthian era, and not the Acheamaenid Persians...

Xen-Its the same problem I run into all the time, theres plenty of maps showing cities in Persia, but they are all pro-Achaemenid:(

As a side note on Persian gulf people, here is an extract from Polybius (13th book, unfortunately incomplete). Herodote would be more useful for your period but I don't think their names had changed that much in-between anyway.


"Chattenia in the Persian Gulf is the third district belonging to the Gerraeans. It is a poor district in other respects, but villages and towers have been established in it for the convenience of the Gerraeans who cultivate it. . . .
The Gerraeans begged the king not to abolish the gifts the gods had bestowed on them, perpetual peace and freedom. The king, when the letter had been interpreted to him, said that he granted their request. . . .
When their freedom had been established, the Gerraeans passed a decree honouring Antiochus with the gift of five hundred talents of silver, a thousand talents of frankincense, and two hundred talents of the so-called "stacte". He then sailed to the island of Tylus and left for Seleucia. The spices were from the Persian Gulf. "

eh Lou its a nice text, but I dont really see how it can be usefull for me, could you enlighten me? ;)

I might add some cities for you but the easiest way would be by putting the map here so that I put them directly on the map. Don't expect anything great for the salty desert though, the area is mostly empty.

AFAIC, I would have added an independant Armenia and Caria and Cilicia that were semi-autonomous, even under the Aechemenids under the Hetacomnids (Mausolos, Caria), and the Syennecids (Cilicia). Of course these were not mostly city-based as the Greeks.
Thracia should be on both sides of the Bosphorus, I think you made Lydia go too much north (into Bythinia). Do you think you could create an Ephtalite (white huns) civ with just one small city in a distant, remote and isolated (by impassable mountains) with only one wonder to create that would spawn lots of horse archers (ignoring mountains malus ?) for a few turns to represent their invasion in more or less 400 BC.

Originally posted by Yoda Power
eh Lou its a nice text, but I dont really see how it can be usefull for me, could you enlighten me? ;)

I just thought Gerraeans could be made a kind of civ with trading posts from Oman, Bahrein to Southern Babylonia and the Persian coast, controlling the incense resource but weak since little population and scattered cities ?

here it is:D

remember cities can only be on grassland and flood plain, so just change the terrain.

Originally posted by LouLong


I just thought Gerraeans could be made a kind of civ with trading posts from Oman, Bahrein to Southern Babylonia and the Persian coast, controlling the incense resource but weak since little population and scattered cities ? That could be a possibility, we discussed it before and decided to keep Oman as uncivilized land(but with change of colonization).

Originally posted by mitsho
@yoda, I thought, some arab tribes were 'raiders' in that time.
But, ok, it could be wrong! (Did Sanaa already exist in that time?)

mfG mitsho

Yemen indeed existed, a long time before as well. The queen of Saba in the Bible comes from there. This kingdom between Arabian peninsula mountains and the sea received a fair share of rainfall, hence the establishment of population and the name given to that area (Hadramawt = happy Arabia). The trade from the Indian ocean as well as production of different incenses (myrrh,...) contributed to the wealth of the kindom.

Don't know if Sanaa was already built under that name though.
Anyway this area is not on the map.

The rest of Arabia could definitely be empty (civs) with wandering nomads/raiders threatening all settled civs.

Well Yemen/Sanaa isn't on the map so it doesn't really matter;). I would like to reserve the barbs for the Scythians only, for two reasons:

1. The Scythians were defiently the "greatest" barbarians by that time.

2. For the gaming purpose I can name all the barbs "Scythians", it would look weird if a Scythian camp poped up in the arabian desert.

BTW Merry Christmas:santa:

Here it is, some cities (not too many) added or corrected (I believe ?) (place/name). Actually I had some pbs with your cities and terrain from Kabul to Gazni, Taxila, etc...

What I changed is in yellow (easy to spot) and of course you are free to change, adapt or reject everything you want :p. The cities I added in Persia are from the Achemenid era except for two (Neh, Jiruft) that are more from the Parthian era but probably existed as a smaller settlement before that. Your choice

You placed Persepolis wrong, its should be south of Pasargadae:p, also you have to build this city yourself when playing;)

All the maps Ive seen shows Ninive on the eastern side of the river, so I will keep it there. I dont understand why I didn't add Arbela in the first place when I see you map.

Xanthus seems fine, it should be independent greek right?

Thanks for the Iranian cities, and for removing Nad-i Ali, I had my doubts if that city really existed by that time.

Sorry if you had a problem with the terrain, I accidently made Iran go a bit too far east, resulting in a tight up Afghanistan.

BTW didn't you wonder why I have a city called North?

Originally posted by Yoda Power
You placed Persepolis wrong, its should be south of Pasargadae:p, also you have to build this city yourself when playing;)

All the maps Ive seen shows Ninive on the eastern side of the river, so I will keep it there. I dont understand why I didn't add Arbela in the first place when I see you map.

Xanthus seems fine, it should be independent greek right?

Thanks for the Iranian cities, and for removing Nad-i Ali, I had my doubts if that city really existed by that time.

BTW didn't you wonder why I have a city called North?

Indeed I wondered, thought it would be for your personal use as a landmark ?

Persepolis, right on both accounts. It is just I usually place my cities by reference to lakes, rivers, etc... and here I add a pb with the North to South city order.
I just displaced Ninive to place Arbela.

Nad-i-Ali sounds more like a name of the muslim era. I just changed its name.

Xanthus ? as usual up to you really.

BTW about cities north of the Bosphorus I think they could be made one civ with Byzance since they had very close ties (trading wheat and colonies).
Cities on the East of the Bosphorus could be independant.

Originally posted by LouLong


Indeed I wondered, thought it would be for your personal use as a landmark ?

Persepolis, right on both accounts. It is just I usually place my cities by reference to lakes, rivers, etc... and here I add a pb with the North to South city order.
I just displaced Ninive to place Arbela.

Nad-i-Ali sounds more like a name of the muslim era. I just changed its name.

Xanthus ? as usual up to you really.

BTW about cities north of the Bosphorus I think they could be made one civ with Byzance since they had very close ties (trading wheat and colonies).
Cities on the East of the Bosphorus could be independant. I placed North to see the border. I hope to place another city in that area(hint:rolleyes: )

Well Zaranj sounds better. I got the name of a historical atlas, I had my doubts, but I needed cities so it got in.

Byzantium, Cherronsita and Abdera was all part of the Aegean legue, thats why they are assigned to Athens. Appolonia did not take part in the Peleponesian war, and thus its "independent".

When you say east of Bosphoros what are you refering too? The cities around the black sea, or northern Anatolia?

My mistake, I meant Pontus (=Black Sea), not Bosphorus. :(

Thamis, you may rec'nize this, since I summarized you it for you for TAM long ago, but here's a list of Achaemenid towns that may be useful:

http://www.livius.org/pen-pg/persia_map/persia_map3.html#towns

And yes, it's Livius again ...

TLC- eh Thamis never posted in this thread. Im Yoda Power...

Its a nice list, but maybe you could show me a map with their exact locations? That would be really helpfull:)

... er, yes. Boy, am I feeling stupid now! My brain must have been rather above its usual level of messed-upness when I wrote that ...

There's a map linked to on that page, but, unfortunately, it does not include to many of the towns from the list. I'll see what I can do finding a better one ... but tomorrow. Merry Christmas and good night for now!

That would be nice, thanks:)

btw this is an obscure time to be posting, for the both of us:ack:

Some more-or-less interesting map links:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.parthia.com/map%5Fmea.htm

http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.oznet.net/iran/oldmap.htm

And an actual map:

http://andjo.free.fr/pics/persian_empire.gif

None of it's too useful, 'mafraid; as promised, I'll search more tomorrow.

Yoda, i just got prince of persia today and played it for a little while. All of a sudden i'm inspired. Any way that I can help?

TLC-Thanks, though im afraid I cant use them:( The last link you postet has alot of cities, but some of them are modern, and it doesn't state which ones.

aaminion-Hey I always need civiliopedia writers;) And you can test, but its still a future thing. Or just hang around the thread:)

Behold! The tech tree for the first era. Suggestions are welcomed:)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/techtree1.gif
As you can see the arrows arent corrected yet. So the sketch is attached below.

I want to play this scenario

Originally posted by Yoda Power
TLC-Thanks, though im afraid I cant use them:( The last link you postet has alot of cities, but some of them are modern, and it doesn't state which ones.

I was thinking you could search for cities that occur both on the map and on the list of ancient towns. I might try it myself, should I feel sufficiently bored ...

I'll try my look again with searching, and also peruse my father's collection of historical atlases, but finding good geographical information on the Achaemenid Empire is hard.

Another trick one could try would be start looking up modern cities in some encyclopaedia; with some luck, you can find out if they were around already in Achaemenid times, and perhaps even the Old Persian, or failing that Classical Greek, name.

Originally posted by Yoda Power

aaminion-Hey I always need civiliopedia writers;) And you can test, but its still a future thing. Or just hang around the thread:)

Cool. Just give me the subjects and I'll give you the civilopedia entry.

TLC-Thanks, I'll look in the list. Though I highly doubt there you will be able to find more cities, im beginning to think that there simply wasn't any cities.

aaminion-Well nothing has been written yet, so its pretty much up to you. However as the techs of the first era are already planned you could write some for them(not the ones included in civ ofcause). Theres also the civilizations:)

I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if you've decided yet, but if you still don't know about the Jewish soldier:

I say it should be a 5.1.1 (not sure of cost, or techs/resorces required), and uses LouLong's slinger graphics (which is in production, I believe). Upgrades to none. You could rename it "Slinger" of course.

Originally posted by Gogf
I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if you've decided yet, but if you still don't know about the Jewish soldier:

I say it should be a 5.1.1 (not sure of cost, or techs/resorces required), and uses LouLong's slinger graphics (which is in production, I believe). Upgrades to none. You could rename it "Slinger" of course. I decided to make a Jewish Javelineer. 2.3.1 and defencive bombard. They will be the best defencive unit Persia can get.

Raided my dad's library, and it's hard to avoid the suspicion that makers of historical atlases are actively ignoring Persia. Something's wrong when you get half a dozen maps of Classical Greece (plus of course several more of the Archaic and Hellenistic periods), and only one of the Achaemenid Empire.

In other words, I've not yet found anything more useful on the city locations front.

I did find a map of cities in Seleucid Persia, but beyond a few major centres like Persepolis and Bactra, it only included towns founded and settled by Greeks.

Persistent lack of failure on the map front ...

I did find a notice in a encyclopaedia entry saying that Medes and Persians are first mentioned in the 9th C BC - I believe someone was asking about that?

I noticed, btw, that the map I posted above identifies Maka (Greek 'Mycia') not with Oman but with what's now Iranian Baluchistan. Historians are apparently in no hurry to be agreeing on this point, but my impression is that the Omani localization is the more popular one. The exact location of Sattagydia and of the Dahae also seems to be disputed - at least the later appears to've moved around a bit!

This mod sounds great and I can't wait to play. I have one suggestion: maybe you should change the provinces tech to Bureaucracy. That sounds more like a social advance to me.

Eagerly awaiting,
Gisli

TLC, Dahae Satrapy has moved becuase the Dahae have moved. They used to live at the Tien Shan Mountains, but during Darius the Great's reign they moved into north Parthia and settled along the river which used to run from the Amu Darya to the Caspian Sea. But sometime before 256BC though the river disappeared and with it did most of the Dahae.

TLC-I thank for all your work, even though it didn't pay off. :)

Gisli-I agree, will be done, thanks:)

MC-Hey could you get me a map with that river on?

Originally posted by Yoda Power
MC-Hey could you get me a map with that river on?

You mean like this...

Originally posted by Cimbri
Good idea Yoda :yeah:

This should help you with the Steppe Tribes. This map also has the original Persian names for regions and tribes.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/persia_map.gif

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
TLC, Dahae Satrapy has moved becuase the Dahae have moved. They used to live at the Tien Shan Mountains, but during Darius the Great's reign they moved into north Parthia and settled along the river which used to run from the Amu Darya to the Caspian Sea. But sometime before 256BC though the river disappeared and with it did most of the Dahae.

That was kind of what I was saying, wasn't it?

Yoda: No problem.

Lol thanks MC(and Cimbri;))

Update: Tech Tree (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/techtree2.gif )

Will 'Bureaucracy' allow the construction of Satrapies?

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Will 'Bureaucracy' allow the construction of Satrapies? Yes

Got C3C now, so now I'm only waiting for the chance to test this ...

lol testing wound't be untill january. I havent even begun adding units.

Im starting to place resources, though I need a good map showing resources(hint hint;))

I could try and find maps showing where to find mineral resources etc - indeed, it would probably be easier to than to find Achaemenid period city locations - but since resource placement no doubt is going to make big concessions to gameplay, I'd like to have something slightly more specific to look for than "a good map showing resources". What resources, and what degree of accuracy in location?

How did you end up avatarless, btw?

Well I would like to keep a map as reference when I place the resources. Ofcause gameplay will be important. The more accurate the better really. Since I/we havent decided on all the resources yet, all maps are welcomed;)

I ended up avatarless because I cant find a good one, and I had to change since christmas is over.

Ok time for an update:

I have begun adding units.This is one of the things I considder very boring, and thus I take a long time to do it;)

I want to discuss goverments. Each civ will start with a certain goverment, and they will not be able to change. These are my suggestions:

Oligarchy, Sparta and Macedon
Monarchy, Lydia, Babylon, Egypt and Media
Empire, Persia
Democracy, Athens

But what about Thrace, Saka, India and the Greeks?

For Thrace and the Saka, I suggest something like "Tribalism" or "Tribal Federation". Communal corruption, worthless spies and diplomats, no trade bonus, no hurrying, decent military support.

For the "other" Greeks, you could have "City States", also with Communal corruption, but with trade bonus and Paid Labour. Normal diplomats/spies, some military support.

For India, presumably Monarchy.

What wouldn't I do without you:thanx:

I, BTW, assume Monarchy and Democracy will be much like in the Epic game, but what are you planning for Empire and Oligarchy? Will Empire be an "uber-Monarchy" like in TAM?

If you want to, you can use Tribal Council, Oligarchy, and Imperialism (from various scenarios) as an idea for governments (Imperialism could be like "Empire").

I think Rise of Rome might be the best place to look for each of the governments (except Democracy).

Ok here is what I plan for each goverment:

Monarchy: Works more or less like normal. Though with war wearness.

Oligarchy: Cheap military, no war wearness, communal corruption.

Empire: High corruption, but ability to build Satrapies. No war wearness.

Democracy: Commerce bonus. War waerness and problematic corruption.

City States: Low Corruption. Expensive military and high war wearness.

Tribal Federation: Communal corruption. No war wearness. Works like Despotism on food, shields and trade.

Looks good, I think.

The reason I suggested Communal corruption for City States was that since the "other" Greeks really represent a bunch of indep states, it doesn't make too much sense to have higher corruption in outlaying cities than in central ones.

Re: Satrapies: It seems that with the next BETA patch (promised for Jan 10th) FP-type wonders are finally going to work as they should. With the currenty BETA patch, a Satrapy outside western Iran is going to have minimal impact, and let's not talk about release C3C.

How do you get to build more than one Satrapie?

By making them separate Small Wonders, presumably.

Making the corruption code work for multiple FP-like Small Wonders is apparently a major motivation for the corruption changes in C3C, and thus the attendant bugs. As said, it should work from Jan 10th.

Wouldn't you have to have only a limited amount of these able to be built?

Just noticed this thread, great idea. I did my phd on ancient history specialising on Macedonia and the Persian empire so if u still need any background info let me know what u want and i'll try and help u out

The reason I suggested Communal corruption for City States was that since the "other" Greeks really represent a bunch of indep states, it doesn't make too much sense to have higher corruption in outlaying cities than in central ones.The reason I gave Oligarchy Communal corruption was because they have to be able to create a big empire(conquering Persia). I could also have given them Minimal, but that way their starting cities wouldn't get any corruption at all. :)
Re: Satrapies: It seems that with the next BETA patch (promised for Jan 10th) FP-type wonders are finally going to work as they should. With the currenty BETA patch, a Satrapy outside western Iran is going to have minimal impact, and let's not talk about release C3C.Yes I know, thats also why I havent really begun talking about buildings yet. I want to be sure they fix it in the next patch, before I actually realize the idea.
Wouldn't you have to have only a limited amount of these able to be built?You can add as many as you want:)
Just noticed this thread, great idea. I did my phd on ancient history specialising on Macedonia and the Persian empire so if u still need any background info let me know what u want and i'll try and help u outIts always apreciatet when people stick around the thread:)

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Xen-Im probably going to make Persia the only playable nation:p


That's mean :mad: :p :D :D :D

just kidding... but I would love to play as a Greek faction and crush Persia (as in RL too :goodjob: )

But keep us posted about your progres.

Ideas for the Greek unit line up:

You could use several of Kryten's (I think they are Kryten's) hoplite variants, and also some units of the time could be Akondistes (javelineers), Cretan Archers, Rhodian slingers, Thessalian Cavalry, Thireoforoi (Shield-bearers), rompheoforoiand some naval units as pendikondoros, pendiris (quinquereme) and siege/artillery units like gastraphetes (that could be a alternative archer unit too, a primitive crossbowman) hellepolis.

Very good idea, hope we'll be able to play it soon.

Actually I decided to make some of the greeks and macedonians playable, dunno if I already mentioned that.

Progress has and will be a little slow due to two reasons:

1. I got sick, and couldn't really do anything.

2. I have to make some hw before school starts(Jan 5.).

Man, I was just thinking about why they didn't include a Greek vs. Persian conflict in Conquests. This is real awesome work your doing. Keep it up man!!!!:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

I got loaded with homework today, and I wont be able to work on this before next week. So dont worry when theres no updates;)

(thread hijacking)

Originally posted by Punkymonkey
Man, I was just thinking about why they didn't include a Greek vs. Persian conflict in Conquests. This is real awesome work your doing. Keep it up man!!!!:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Didn't they? Rise of Rome poses such an (interesting) challenge. Playing as Macedon, you are facing the endless hordes of the Persian Empire.

I got C3C a week ago and RoR is the only scenario I have had time to play - as Macedon I am leading the Greek Hoplites, Phalanxes (modded them in) and Companions (modded them in too :) ) against the zillions Persian Immortals and Spearmen (and fewer but still numerous heavy cavs and Nubian mercs)... With the help of Carthage, we are close to annihilate Persia (by 1 AD, nevertheless... Demigod is tough to play on with this conquest) but then Hannibal and his countless elephants (lots of stacks of 12+ elephants on each) and gazillions of galleys (changed their names to triremes ...actually, quinquireme for Carthago and Trireme for Macedon) shall turn their face to the Greek empire... no good.

I have about 100 companions, 100 hoplites, 80 phalanxes, 50 F.Cats and 70+ triremes and, save Persia, I have the weakest military of the remaining civs!!!

Carthago delenda est!

Rome is almost absent from this game (they have conquered a good deal of Central Europe and annihilated the Celts, but they couldn't get a single city from Carthago and even lost a couple to them.

All in all, a scenario that could - with a fair dose of tweaking, addition of units and fiddling with the tech tree - become a hugely great Mod on it's own.

(end of hijacking)

And I bet Yoda shall make an extremely good Mod :goodjob:

Didn't they? Rise of Rome poses such an (interesting) challenge. Playing as Macedon, you are facing the endless hordes of the Persian Empire.

Do you know that it is almost complete fiction?

Persia at this time would have been Parthia, and they certainly wouldn't have used Imortals (their army would be Archers and Horse Archers, more or less). Also, there were 3 Greek kingdoms at this time, Macedon, Seleuca, and Egypt (Egypt is a Greek kingdom at this time, and definately wouldn't have War Chariots).

But, as for tweaking it. Eventually, I plan to add a bunch of stuff to the mod (The addition of Seleucia (playable) and Iberia (non-playable), Balaeric Slingers and Numidian Cavalry for Carthage (technically available for everyone, but the resources are in Carthage), Velites for Rome, Companion Cavalry and Peltasts for Macedonia, Barbarian Cavalry for Gaul (Now playable), Goth, and Iberia, Horse Archers for Parthia and Scythia, Cataphracts for Parthia and Seleucia, and a few Elephants imported from Asia for both Macedon and Seleucia).

Sorry about the thread jack, Yoda :o
I guess I got a bit carried away.

Originally posted by Louis XXIV


Do you know that it is almost complete fiction?

Persia at this time would have been Parthia, and they certainly wouldn't have used Imortals (their army would be Archers and Horse Archers, more or less). Also, there were 3 Greek kingdoms at this time, Macedon, Seleuca, and Egypt (Egypt is a Greek kingdom at this time, and definately wouldn't have War Chariots).

But, as for tweaking it. Eventually, I plan to add a bunch of stuff to the mod (The addition of Seleucia (playable) and Iberia (non-playable), Balaeric Slingers and Numidian Cavalry for Carthage (technically available for everyone, but the resources are in Carthage), Velites for Rome, Companion Cavalry and Peltasts for Macedonia, Barbarian Cavalry for Gaul (Now playable), Goth, and Iberia, Horse Archers for Parthia and Scythia, Cataphracts for Parthia and Seleucia, and a few Elephants imported from Asia for both Macedon and Seleucia).

Sorry about the thread jack, Yoda :o
I guess I got a bit carried away.

OK, this is my last attempt at thread-jacking (sorry Yoda) :)

Well, I do know the actual buildup of the era and actually, we should have at least 7 distinct Greek factions (Seleucid was the largest one, followed by Macedon, Lagid - Ptolemean - Egypt, Pergamos, the Achaen confederacy and the Aetolian league in mainland Greece, and maybe even the kingdom of Hepirus).

Also, by the timeframe (the first Punic war, perhaps? or a more advanced stage of the struggle between Rome and Carthago?) Parthia hasn't emerged (the later Parthians were still known as Parnii and lived around the Black Sea) and the Persian empire was annihilated. If we move it to the third Punic war timeframe, I think the Parnii have given birth to their mighty empire, gettings chunks of Seleucid (among others) land, the kingdom of Hepirus is almost gone and some other minor changes have occured.

I just looove the changes you plan to implement (especially unit-wise) with just one wee-bit nitpicking: the hoplite and the phalanx (pike-bearers) should be two different units, hence I added the phalanx as a different unit (3-4-1, and 1 extra hp, with hoplites at 3-3-1).

Maybe we can coordinate efforts on this mod.

I wasn't talking about the historical merits of this mod, but about the

yoda,

some ideas for Indus Valley civs. I think they could be very interesting civs for the game by the way, they're very mysterious... we don't seem to know very much in detail about them. But you can start with this... what we know about Indus Valley civs comes from the Vedas (ancient religious poems, some written in very old sanskrit, some written much later- the important thing is that the Vedas are our source of info on the Indus Valley civs and are part of the Indus valley civ throughout its entire history). Vedas depict Indus Valley before the Greek sources and before the rise of Buddhism (Vedas could be incorporated as an advance in the game or wonder)... A characteristic trait of Indus Valley civs would definitely be religious, the Vedas are a collection of poems, prayers and theology. Brahmans could be a unit produced by Indus Valley, they are a religious caste of Indus civs... you could also try to incorporate ideas of caste in general, for instance Brahman (religious caste), Varna (military caste), etc... remember the idea of caste is very important in Indus Valley civs. Indus valley civs can be characterized by the following: they were one of the first peoples to develop writing (sanskrit is almost or just as old as Akkadian, I think only Sumerian would be older), they are religious (think of the mythology and religious poems of the vedas, also the brahmans) and warlike, and they have castes (brahmans, varna etc). Many also think their civilization met a violent end. Indus Valley has a very long and interesting history (indo european- also, indo european concepts could be added to game, but I don't know if this is out of reach of the scenario, but it definitely has something to do with Indus Valley and civilization in general-anway it's an idea) and I could go on and on, but let me know if this is any use and if you have any specific questions. btw I got your post about med europe, pity...

Nitpick: The Rise of Rome Conquest starts in 350 BC, when the Achaemenid Empire was very much still around.

More on-topic, preliminary searches for maps showing locations of natural resources in Iran hasn't yielded any results. I'll continue looking, but you're probably better off scavenging for real Atlases in your nearest library.

Sometimes I wish people showed the same sort of respect for map copyrights as is customarily shown for music and video ones. :D

suggestion (for the tech tree)- just to make it more historical, you could rename mysticism "fire cult". Pre-zoroastrian iranian religion was based on a fire cult, with a sacred flame in a temple which was perpetually lit. Sacrifices were made in the temple.

Natural resources ?

Here (and explanations next post) :

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/

Explanations on colours used (we say Legende in Frenhc, any special word in English for that ?)

That must be one of the most useful links anyone's ever posted here. Thanks, LouLong!

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
That must be one of the most useful links anyone's ever posted here. Thanks, LouLong!

Err... thanks but honestly somebody else gave it a long time ago. I just asked map requesters to use the site to give me screenshots of what they wanted then I use it for resources, coastline...

BTW my choice for resources is to consider Red as Iron and Green as Aluminium (it works OK most of the time when I compared with actual resources). But you can make other choices.

I must've missed it then. Wasn't aware of the site.

hmm alot of replies since my last post. Im gonna answer them tomorrow, for know I just want to say this project might get delayed a bit, as some very interesting things just happened to me this day:love: ;)

Originally posted by Yoda Power
hmm alot of replies since my last post. Im gonna answer them tomorrow, for know I just want to say this project might get delayed a bit, as some very interesting things just happened to me this day:love: ;)

You mean.... your mother gave you a kiss on the cheek :p
More seriously, enjoy !
I have never been with a Danish girl but I guess it could be "worst" ;)

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Nitpick: The Rise of Rome Conquest starts in 350 BC, when the Achaemenid Empire was very much still around.


Why does it start in 350?

At this time, Rome had good relations with Carthage, hadn't conquered Italy, and definately didn't own Messina.

The first Punic War begins in 264, which makes much more sense for a start date of the scenario.

I read that Parthia set up an independent kingdom in 250BC, which isn't too far off (I'm planning to give them everything from Ctesiphon to the Eastern edge of the map, but have a lot of units to take poorly defended Seleucid cities).

Originally posted by Louis XXIV


Why does it start in 350?

Who am I to know?

More helpfully, the Firaxians obviously aren't obsessively concerned with historical realism in the Conquests. And since the typical customer is rather clueless about ancient history, I can well see why they feel no need to be.

But don't let that disuade you from making a more accurate version! I'd love to see it.

map link for Indus Valley cities:

http://www.harappa.com/har/harsites3.html

there's also some info on each city mentioned. It says in the text that Indus Valley civ was also called Harappan civ, after its main city.
hope it's useful

Yoda,

First off, there should be no mention of Indus Valley civs at this time because they disappeared around 1400-1200BC. So don't worry about that mess. Just put the Indian civ as the kingdom of Punjab as that is where Alexander came into contact with the indians and where he was stopped. The whole indus area was controlled by them at this time. I'll try to dig up a map of the kingdom. The Mauryans came late into the picture comparatively and if you have a large enough map maybe you can make them an eastern indian civ and the Kindom of Punjab a western indian one and give a slant towards the Mauryans cause they would rise to prominence in the Hellenistic age

indus valley:

if harappa is too early for your timeline, you could use the aryans, who migrate there in 1500 BC, but eventually end up farther east in the Ganges around 750 BC. If you want later than this for the indus valley (around 600 BC) then use the kingdom of Gandhar (modern Kandahar in Afghanistan), one of the 16 kingdoms that appear at this time through the sub continent of India. The kingdom of Gandhar is conquered by Cyrus or Darius of Persia, I can't remember which, in 500's BC. (later conquered by Alexander) The kingdom of Magadha, also one of the 16 kingdoms, but based in the ganges, forms the first real Indian empire by eliminating the kingdoms near the ganges. Magadha actually buys the Kingdom of Gandhar and the rest of the Indus valley from the Seleucid greeks in 304 BC for elephants. I can find much more detailed info on this particular period and/or a particular kingdom, but do you want it?

punkymonkey:

only got to read your post after I posted mine, sorry! But I think we're talking about the same thing. Magadha appears around 600 BC, the Mauryans are a different dynasty of the same empire, they do come later in the picture and their center is on the ganges. They are the real Indian empire, if you want something earlier than them and based on the indus my only recommendation is Gandhar, they're not a famous civ but they did exist, the territory was conquered by the persians and then Alexandar, then sold back to Magadha/ Mauryan civ. Magadha works if you want to start 600BC and on the ganges, but Maurya is a more recognized (and later)civ.
btw Harrapa is really outdated if you're starting 600BC or later, sorry- but things like caste system and religious, warlike traits really do still apply to any indian civs you may want to use.

Its great you guys keep comming with information for me. I dont have the time to read it all for now. But I will begin working on it again next week:)

Ok im on this project again. I want to move on to buildings, so just begin pump out ideas. I will make a list of the buildings im gonna use when I have enough ideas:)

btw since Firaxis chnged the FP effect I cant maje satrapies the way I want them, so skip that idea:(

Not come 'round to testing it yet, but apparently corruption capping occurs before Courthouse and Police Station effects are factored in in 1.15. That would mean that if enough anticorruption buildings are available to the Persians, they could eventually knock down corruption to nil in the most distant cities.

Thought this might be useful.

Im thinking of making a wonder called something like "Satrapies". That would simply work as a FP. Then the empire corruption would be a bit better than just rampant, probably problematic. Also there will be the corruption reducing heads avaiblable, though im not sure what to call them(obviosly Policeman doesn't word).

I startet on outlines to the second age tech tree. So far its very small, thats only because I still dont know what improvements/wonders to include(hint hint;)).
But anyway, The military line will give Macedon the most powerfull units in the scenario. The other lines will give Settlers and a wonde I plan to call "Behistun Inscriptions."

The Achaemenid kings had special agents know as the "Eyes of the King", charged to oversee the conduct of satraps and other officials, reporting corruption or treachery to the central government. I think you've got your name for renamed Policemen.

Eyes of the King sounds funny sounds funny, but should work:). I also want to allow comunication trading in this era, any ideas for a tech to give that?

BTW happy bday TLC:bday: (you know there is a birthday thread for you in OT, right?)

I wonder how you are going to represent the fact that what plagued the Persian Empire were the incessant revolts by mainly the Egyptians and the Babylonians. IMHO persian culture should be weak, while Egyptian and Babylonian culture should be very strong. This would mean that large complements of troops would be needed to prevent flipping. (In reality the troops were stationed outside the cities.) Since there are precariously little architectural and litterary remains of the Archemenid Empire that would perhaps mean that the Persian Monarchial government should incorporate the new elements of the Fascist government, which inhibits cultural growth. The satrapies, which is a very good gameplay idea should produce little or no culture.

This is how I see your starting position. You start as Cyrus (leader unit) with a complement of Elite Archers. (according to Russian excavations palatital bodyguards were archers) The Median empire is in anarchy. The city you start in, Persepolis, have just revolted from the empire, and you see the opportunity to grasp the weakened Median empire quickly. Persepolis is located in desert. Luckily you are agricultural, in addition to being industrial and militaristic, so desert can be irrigated. Even better is it that your civilization have mastered the art of cattleherding, moving the cattle back and forth between the hilly uplands and the schorched lowlands according to the temperature of the seasons. In short cattle abounds around your prosperous city. Amazingly your people have through hard work dug deep tunnels, also know as 'qanats', (edit: spelling) into the the hills. Under these hills the groundwater table is raised, and the water can be led out unto the hills. Summa summarum the land, even hills, can be irrigated without acces to surface water.

Well, these were some ideas.

BTW. I have an idea for a new wonder specific to this Scenario. The Commagene Nemrut. The site is placed at the top of Mount Nemrut in the Turkish province of Adiyaman. Essentially it is the grave of King Antiochus, who supposedly is buried under the Tumulus. A Tumulus is a mountain of stones. What is interesting that the deities which are placed the foot of the Tumulus facing East and West represent a syncrestic mix between Persian and Greek culture and religion. So in some symbolic way it represents the end of Greek/Persian rivalry. (The kings of Commagene were no friends of the Romans). I propose that this wonder could represent an ancient version of the UN wonder.

Post Scriptum.

I am unhappy that Arabs are not going to be in the game. When Cambyses invaded Egypt he specifically had to ask the Arabs for a right of passage((According to Herodotus)

Have you considered naming the Athenian city and their allies, simply the Ionians?

galgacus PM'd me 'bout the birthday thread, otherwise I'd no doubt missed it - I'm almost never over in OT.

Dr^3: Which King Antiochus would that be? There are a few to chose between!

Persepolis isn't really in a desert. Fars is pretty arid, but no desert. And it's qanat, without any 'u'.

Culture-flipping Babylonians and Egyptians won't work that well. It'll make the initial conquests harder, while they in reality were tolerably quick and clean affairs, but once the civs are wiped out (and that's gonna happen if CFs are a big concern) they won't be revolting at all. Setting the assimilation percentage to something very low is about all you can do.

Realistically, the Persians would start out with more than one city - the early Achaemenids ruled more or less all of Persis, albeit as Median vassals in the early 6th C BC.

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Also there will be the corruption reducing heads avaiblable, though im not sure what to call them(obviosly Policeman doesn't word).


What about 'money counters'. The main economic problem facing the Persian Empire was the infusion of cheap Athenian silver coins, pushing the Babylonian shekel from the market. Excavations have been pointing to forgeries of Athenian coins.

The Last Conformist

Antiochus I was instated as king in 69 BC. His Paternal linage was originated in Darius, king of Persia, and his maternal linage originated in Alxender the Great. Ok this is clearly to late for this scenario. Nevertheless maybe the tech which allows the UN victory can be put at the very end of the tech tree, allowing for an alternate and ahistorical win. (what us the timeframe of the scenario BTW?)

I see the problem with wiping out the AI. What about increasing the number of Babylonian and Egyptian towns? Really a shame that the Ai is gone when all cities are conquered. However in order to make the initial conquests easier, naturally the Persians will have a strong army.

I think the problems facing the persian empire was in this order.
1)Revolts
2)Corruption
3)Athens

A scenario close to facts should perhaps reflect that, although it wouldn't be a warmonger game anymore. More of a builder game...

One more thing the Government of Babylon should be the Republic.

Why should Babylon be a Republic?

It shouldn't. Monarchy, in its Mesopotamian form, was a defining characteristic of Babylonian civilization. The Achaemenids took some pains to act as proper Mesopotamian kings in Babylonia (and as proper pharaohs in Egypt).

That'd be Antiochus I of Commagene. Yes, that would be well too late for this scen, I believe.

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Why should Babylon be a Republic?

Some 'facts' concerning the Neo-Babylonian Empire at the start of Persian expansion.

Leader: Nabonidus (ruled 555-39), a commoner of Syrian descent. He took the throne after three kings had been assassinated over six years.

Government: The real holders of power were the priesthood who served the god Marduk. In fact they may have conspired against him to allow Cyrus to enter Babylon without any resistance. (This opens the possiblity that the early Persians were really acting as instrumenets of the Marduk Priesthood) Traditionally the Babylonian kings had been war leaders but Nabonidus was an exceptionally peaceful man. Unlike previous kings he did not reside in Babylon, but chose the town of Teima in Arabia. Here he was free to worship the moon god sin, which was also worshipped by the Arabians. An unstable monarchy. Perhaps theocracy is a better description. I would suggest the Republic.

Economy: The level of trade in and out of Babylon was extremely high. Trade into the capital consisted of Iron, wine, dyes, spices and lapis lazuli (gems). The metropolis of Babylon, an enormous city, had two wonders of the world. The Hanging Gardens and the grandiose city walls. In addition to temples, banking was an important part of business. (This could be represented by a bank, or a special wonder adding 1 trade per tile)

In the surronding towns the economy was based around the temple, the trading house and the courthouse. The temples largely functoned as 'corporations' organizing the produce of agricultual products. The trading houses were the residence of the merchant class, which functioned as moneylenders and traders. The level of literary remains from this period describing, agricultural output, trade deals and loan giving is very high. Note the absense of an aristocracy. In the courts the decisions concerning governance were decided by assemblies. The people serving in these assemblies were from the temple class, that is the priesthood.

Interestingly when the Persians took over the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire they saw no problems in restoring democracy to the Ionian cities of Asia Minor.

Source: The ancient Mesopotamian City, and A history of the Ancient Near East, both by Marc Van De Mieroop.

I agree with the good Dr. Dr. Doktor.

The Arabs (perhaps called Midianites/Nabataeans or just Arabs) with the cities of Elat, Petra and Dumah would be an interesting addition to the scenario. :)

Ok im sorry I disappeared for a few days, but im back now;)

Dr dr doctor-

As TLC said Fars isn't desert and the Persians controlled more than one city. Also there wont be any king units, simply because I dont see the point in having them. I could include the Arabs, but im gonna need a leader, city list etc. Babylon was an unstable monarchy, yes. But it was a monarchy and thus I will make them that. Also they would become to powerfull if I made them a Republic. The The Commagene Nemrut would be too late. The scenario stops after Alexanders invasion.

Cimbri-

As I just said above, the Nabataeans would be a exelent civ. Though im gonna need help with them.

Last, why wouldn't anyone give me some feedback on the tech tree???

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Also there wont be any king units, simply because I dont see the point in having them.
...

Last, why wouldn't anyone give me some feedback on the tech tree???

When I meant leader I meant a MGL not King unit.

The tech tree looks good so far.

I can understand your conservative approach to this scenario Yoda Power. Anyway this has actually inpired me to make my own scenario. My modding powers are not great, but I think everything is in the game already for making mideast scenarios. The map you are using is that the one from the Rise of Rome scenario?

New Wonder

The slaying of the Apis Bull
Location: Somewhere in Egypt
Effect: Gives 12 unhappy citizens per satrapy in each city across the continent.
Tech Required: none

The Behistun Inscription
Effect: Gives 12 content citizens per satrapy in each city across the continent
Tech required: Imperial Propaganda
Resource required: Egyptian scribes.

The logic behind this that when Cambyses invaded Egypt he slayed the most holy animal in Egypt, the Apis Bull. This according to Herodotus made Cambyses a cursed man, and thus he died in the desert. This sparked a rebellions and revolts across the Persian Empire by the usurper Bardiya. Darius defeated the rebels and made himself king. He then had the Behistun Inscription made to commermorate his victory and legitimize his rule.Thus making the citizens content.

So in order to conquer the Pyramids, which speeds growth, the Persian player will have accept the inclusion of the wonder 'The slaying of the Apis Bull' (SAB) which is located in the same city as the pyramids. This will spark serious problems which can only be negated by building the 'Behistun inscription'. However this can only be built with the 'resource'
Egyptian scribes which is located under the city where the Pyramids and and the SAB is located.

Originally posted by Dr. Dr. Doktor
I can understand your conservative approach to this scenario Yoda Power. Anyway this has actually inpired me to make my own scenario. My modding powers are not great, but I think everything is in the game already for making mideast scenarios. The map you are using is that the one from the Rise of Rome scenario?

New Wonder

The slaying of the Apis Bull
Location: Somewhere in Egypt
Effect: Gives 12 unhappy citizens per satrapy in each city across the continent.
Tech Required: none

The Behistun Inscription
Effect: Gives 12 content citizens per satrapy in each city across the continent
Tech required: Imperial Propaganda
Resource required: Egyptian scribes.

The logic behind this that when Cambyses invaded Egypt he slayed the most holy animal in Egypt, the Apis Bull. This according to Herodotus made Cambyses a cursed man, and thus he died in the desert. This sparked a rebellions and revolts across the Persian Empire by the usurper Bardiya. Darius defeated the rebels and made himself king. He then had the Behistun Inscription made to commermorate his victory and legitimize his rule.Thus making the citizens content.

So in order to conquer the Pyramids, which speeds growth, the Persian player will have accept the inclusion of the wonder 'The slaying of the Apis Bull' (SAB) which is located in the same city as the pyramids. This will spark serious problems which can only be negated by building the 'Behistun inscription'. However this can only be built with the 'resource'
Egyptian scribes which is located under the city where the Pyramids and and the SAB is located. Im using a map I made for this scenario. I couldn't find any other maps that had the right size or/and accuracy.

Its a nice idea, however im not sure if it would bring much to the gameplay. You capture a wonder that makes your citizens unhappy, just so you can build a wonder that makes them happy again. The player could simply just choose to destroy the city, rebuild it and then construct the Behistun Inscriptions. I agree that those wonders would be cool, I just dont see them working this way.

btw Propaganda is a cool tech, thanks:D

But if he destroyed the city he would the destroy the pyramids too. If you then made it so that in order to build a granary you must have acces to wheat, destroying the pyramids would not be a good idea.

Hey Yoda, I still really like this project. Overall the Persian culture doesn't interest me that much, but you've managed to get my attention. You said:

As I just said above, the Nabataeans would be a exelent civ. Though im gonna need help with them.

A Nabatean civ would be hard, because I'm not sure how many cities of theirs we know of. But I could get you a template for an ancient pan-arab type civ in a minute...

Civilization: Aribi
Noun: Arabians
Adjective: Arabian
Plurality: Plural
Gender: Masculine
Traits: Commercial, and Religious

Title: King
Name: Sabos (I Recommend Medieval Gilgamesh)
Gender: Male

Favorite Goverment: Preferably despotism type goverment with some sense of power for commoners
Shunned Goverment: Any sort of vast imperialistic goverment
Agression Level: 2
Culture Group: Middle Eastern :p

City Names

Petra
Mariaba
Aden
Dilmun
Karna
Bakkah
Sabata
Dhafar
San'a
Teimah
Tamna
Aila
Medain Saleh
Shisur
Qataban

Military Leaders

Al-Sameefe' Ashwa
Yitea Amar
Alhan Nahfan
Sairum Autar
Isarah Yahdib
Ya'Zil Bayyin

Scientific Leaders:

Obodas
Syllaeus
Aretas
Esimiphaeus

Build Often:

Def. Land Units
Happiness
Wealth
Trade

Build Never:

N/A

Oh, and as far as colors go, I think the Arabs have traditionally valued red, white, black, and green as the 4 great colors (thus the flags of egpyt, iraq, syria, etc. etc.).

Many modern historians believe that Cambyses slaying the Apis bull was just an untrue accusation by Egyptian priests, to justify their opposition to the Persian rulers.

Any progress on units?

aaminion-thanks for the list, but I think the civ should be completly Nabataean and not just arabic, as a civ that covered the whole of arabia would make the area too important.

TLC- Progress on units? No units are being made for this scenario if thats what you mean..

Meant unit stats and the like. If you've finalized that, I've missed it.

Originally posted by Yoda Power
aaminion-thanks for the list, but I think the civ should be completly Nabataean and not just arabic, as a civ that covered the whole of arabia would make the area too important.

Gah, damnit, all that work for nothing :cry:

I suppose I could make you a Nabatean civ template, but I'd have to know some things. Chiefly how many cities, military leaders, and scientific leader you'd want. This would depend on how big the Nabateans could get and how big the map is, plus if desert could be settled.

TLC- Yes I finalized them. I posted a word document some pages ago. I added one new unit since that. Fort Guard: 1.2.2 immobile. They cant be build, but are preplaced on forts/barricades.

aaminion-I dont see room for more than 3 to 4 cities. If you(or anyone else) can get me a map with cities on that would be really helpfull.

I did some research on Nabataea, and as far as I can see the kingdom wasn't around 550 BC. So I dont really see the point in including it. Did Petra even exist by this time? If it did it should defiently be included somehow.

simply googling, might've yealded this site
Nabatean history (http://nabataea.net/who.html)


Seems those people have been around (flurishing) since the 6th century BC.

Petra, though, was created several centuries later.

oh thanks Noob@civ:D

BTW those who would like to test please state so.

Also note that I woundt let everybody test, only people that help out with the scenario.

I'd love to test it.

Originally posted by aaminion00
I'd love to test it. sure your in:)

I'd like to. I think I'll have the time! Scratch that - I'll reprioritize till I have the time. (Sleep, food, studying, what's that?)

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
I'd like to. I think I'll have the time! Scratch that - I'll reprioritize till I have the time. (Sleep, food, studying, what's that?) Exelent:D

I woundt set a release date yet, my social life right now is far too confusing to calculate anything, but I hope to release the first beta next weekend.

I put that in the Pelo war thread. Just thought it might be of interest for you too.

List of satrapies (20) in 518 :

1. Media
2. Susiana (around Susa)
3. Babylonia
4. Arabia
5. Assyria
6. Egypt
7. Armenia
8. Cappadocia
9. Lydia
10. Ionia
11. Sea countries (places of the "Sea people" mostly around Cilicia)
12. Sargatia (East of Persia)
13. Parthia (Merv)
14. Aria (between (south of) Parthia and the great lake)
15. Bactriana (Bactra)
16. Sogdian
17. Arachosia (south of Aria)
18. India (along Indus)
19. Gandhara (north of India)
20. Maka (facing Oman).
Then you have areas such as Gedrosia, etc... that are not satrapies as such.

Thanks Lou, though im going to skip my satrap idea since c3c changed the FP effect:(

What's the current effect? (I haven't been playing careful attention to corruption changes)

#12 should be "Sagartia", no?

Some historians think Maka was Oman.

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
#12 should be "Sagartia", no?

Some historians think Maka was Oman.

1. :o yep
2. Might be but the majority (not that it is always right !) favors it as a place in Southern Iran (might have stretched over the Ormuz straight anyway, as a "friendly" control) but I am not a specialist so I won't go into deep discussions about it lol

Any help on that Nabatean civ? Please..

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Any help on that Nabatean civ? Please..

Is that why you haven't posted in so long? Post some more screenshots, they're always fun. In the meanwhile, I'll find you a Nabatean civ soon enough. I won't get more than about 5-6 cities though.

Originally posted by aaminion00


Is that why you haven't posted in so long? Post some more screenshots, they're always fun. In the meanwhile, I'll find you a Nabatean civ soon enough. I won't get more than about 5-6 cities though. Lol sure I'll post some screenshots tomorrow or later tonight. Im very busy these days thats why I dont post as much, I will work on this scenario when ever I can.

Thats also why its so important you help me;)

Bump!

What happened to those screenies?

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Bump!

What happened to those screenies? :blush: im so sorry...

Ok this time I promise that tomorrow I will post some. My winter vacation just startet today so I will have some extra time to actually work on this again;)

Look I can actually hold a promise:D. As you can see I havent got startet adding buildings yet, thats why Pasargadae can build the Internet;). I also havent installed unit graphics either, though all units have been editet in now. Do you(the testers) think its important to have unit graphics installed in the first Beta? Installing the graphics and make sure there are no bugs will ofcause take more time.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/persiascreen2.gif
Oh and the dont worry about the starving greek cities, I havent assigned them to their right goverment yet;)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/persiascreen1.gif

I want to get really startet on those buildings, so lets start with improvements. I will post two lists, one with all the buildings I can think of myself, and one with building abilities I want to implement, but cant think of a proper building name.

1. list
Capital-Center of empire
Military Academy-Veteran ground units
Naval Academy-Veteran sea units
Marketplace-50% tax
Shrine-One happy citizen
Temple-Two happy citizen
Harbor-Food in water
Port-Water trade
Paradaiza-Reduce war wearness, increase luxury trade and one happy citizen.
Palace-Resistant to propaganda, reduces corruption and war wearness, makes two citizen happy, 50% lux. Requires one army.
Granary-Double city growth rate

2. list
50% research output
Reduces corruption
Allow city to grow beyong 5.
25% more production
another 25% more production
Increase trade in water
Increase shields in water. This improvement should be specific to those cities that have the "Greeks" resource within their ratio and thus the building could use some kind of greek name.

Originally posted by Yoda Power

50% research output

Anything wrong with "Library"?

Reduces corruption

Anything wrong with "Courthouse"?

Allow city to grow beyong 5.

"Agora" (representing farmers coming there selling food), perhaps?

25%