Roster:
Greebley
Doc Tsiolkovski ---> up
Yndy --> retired
Deatvert --> MIA
a space oddity
TedJackson
Karasu
mad-bax

Intro
I've had a hankering to try out DyP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19742) for a long time. As most of my Civ time is committed to Succession Games I thought it might be cool to combine the two. What better way to explore this complex and intriguing mod than as an SG?

Start
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-3.jpg

Start Conditions
Map Size: Large
Map type: Continents, 60% Water
Barbs: Sedentary
Climate: Wet
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 3 Billion
Civ: Mali
Opponents: 11 random
Enabled victories: Domination, Space Race, Diplomatic, Conquest, Cultural
Misc: Civ-Specific abilities on, Preserve random seed on, Cultural conversions on, all others off
Level: Emperor

Tweaks
Emissaries (all flavours) - removed HN, Added invisibility
Assassin - removed HN
Ninja - removed HN
Spy - removed HN
Secret Service - removed HN
Secret Agent - removed HN
Special Agent - removed HN
Covert Operative - removed HN

Labourers - added Airlift
Rifleman (all flavours) - Airlift added

Cuirassiers - added Ottomans
Privateer - set Bombard range to 0
Elephant Riders - removed Wheeled
Jet fighters - require Oil & Aluminium (not changed)
Inti - removed Amphibious & Blitz
Cossack - set HP Bonus to +2
Colonial Marines - Amphibious added

The save file is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-BC4000.zip) and the modified bix is > there < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-bix.zip)


Ted

Nice Name for the game. I'm here BTW :p

Present. :)

An "I got it" from me. Hope to play tonight.

Here I am.
I downloaded the mod. I'll report back as soon as I am done with screwing up my laptop...

i'm here

I'll be watching. :)

Preturn/4000 BC: Game loads! The crowd goes cheers. Jenne founded! The crowd goes wild. Hut is declared empty. The ref is booed. Start a scout.

Worker moved to the flood plains.

If I remember correctly, all scouts is good for huts, but bad for AI attacks. Need to balance this.

I see why settling on a hill is recommended. 2 shields in the base. Nice.

For science I will usually go for farming first if I don't have it. In this case, domestication is also an option. I think I am going to try to go for domestication first as it is more likely to be tradable. The reason I like these two is to show wheat, corn / cows, pigs of course so cities can grow faster. I set science to both minimum AND maximum at the same time. Very Zen.

3950 BC (1): Start roading Flood plain.
3900 BC (2): Zzzz
3850 BC (3): Zzzz
3800 BC (4): Zzzz
3750 BC (5): Build first scout - renamed to the highly original "First Patrol". Starts out northish.
3700 BC (6): The jungle to the west is checked out by the first patrol
3650 BC (7): Finish road and head to BG to road it next. The road dropped Domestication from time max number of turns to due in 30.
3600 BC (8): The jungle is north and west of us. Scout will go eastish next. (Note to self: Remember this is DYP. Deserts are 2 movement. I can sometimes forget and try to cross a desert thinking it will be fast. )
3550 BC (9): Another Flood Plain. Thats good.
3500 BC (10): Culture expansion. See the sea to the SW (4 squares SW from Jenne is water). Raise Lux to 10%
Scout built. Renamed to Second Patrol...err...except I already moved it. Will name next turn.it will head southish and then eastish. First Patrol spots a hut and a horse! Umm... Ok, what to build next. Not an easy decision. A hardy clan (settler) is 20 turns and 1 population. A regular one is 10 turns and 2 pop. Contact can be big in these games so I may try yet another scout.
3450 BC (11): Popping the hut give us.... A tribe. We also spot another civ. Well that really decides things. Doc says that DYP Civs like to attack, and getting a free tribe seems to be the biggest cause of attacks in normal PTW for me. We will want the defensive units. Also the tribe is within 1 turn of a hill near a Flood plain with horses in the radius. A superb city spot. Second Patrol sees another hut.

The civ is Polynesia and is up by farming. We could use another scouting unit. I may finish the scout before the defensive unit. So my plan is scout-Tribal Guardsman-clan (past the end of my turn).

3400 BC (12): Found Timbuktu. Horses give us +1 food. For that city I think I will be paranoid and MM for shields - Tribal guardsman in 7. Then next hut is empty.

3350 BC (13): Build last scout and rename it "Third Patrol" The mathematically astute reader will notice a pattern...err...except I already moved it. Will name it next turn.
Start a tribal guardsman.

3300 BC (14): Second Patrol finds a nice coastal spot. with an Apple Forest/Orchard and a horse.

3250 BC (15): We seem to have a mostly fertile valley surrounded by jungle, mountains and hills. Enough for several towns though. Doh! Forgot to name the scout again.

3200 BC (16): Glorg! The jungle is north of us as well as west. I was hoping for more nice land.

3150 BC (17): Meet the Celts. Trade Wheel for Farming + 7 gold. Jackpot! The only bonus resource in the valley is within radius of the capitol - Corn for a 4 food square. Ok, I am nervous. A bunch of Polynesian troops have appeared and could cause trouble. See a hut.

3100 BC (18): Fortunately, they turn away. Tribesman due in 1 turn in Timbuktu and we can start growing now. Mongols have appeared on the diplo screen. I think I saw a scout in the between turns. Pop the hut 1 turn before our first military unit is built.

One other note: I haven't yet started using the corn. I want to win the race to domestication so we can catch up in tech. We lose two turns if we switch now. The worker is currently roading it though.

The Third Patrol is now really called the "Third Patrol" and not "Might Someday Become The Third Patrol If I Ever Remember" or MSBTTPIIER for short - which sounds more like a Aztec city name than a proper person name.

3050 BC (19): Finish Tribal guardsman. Not sure what to build next. Will set to warrior for now. Next player can decide if this is what we really want.

3000 BC (20): Our poor scouts are slogging through 2 move terrain.

Notes:
We could buy a tech now, but I think trying to get Domestication first is better.

We now save 1 turn on domestication by not working the corn. I was checking each turn. At some point the switch will no longer cost us a turn and I suspect we are close. Noone has Domestication that I can see yet.

I was thinking a clan next for the capitol. The Guardian is due in one.

Remember roads only allow a move of 2.

Here is our secluded, happy, little valley.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-3000BC.JPG

The happy little save file (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-BC3000.zip)

Ok I am a bit tired. Good night all.

Popping the hut give us.... A tribe. [dance]


What a lucky set of turns. Not heading for Farming can really break your neck, but if we happen to start next to 2 EXP Civs, well, easy trade. And Horses near the equator, hadn't really expected it.

Just one thing: Isn't 'Gao' the default name of the Malinese Capital? :confused:


BTW, this is a 'Got it'.

Important rules questions:
I assume we stick to the usuall Lkendter SG rules, plus respecting the rate caps, right?
And 10 turns from now?

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Important rules questions:
I assume we stick to the usuall Lkendter SG rules, plus respecting the rate caps, right?
And 10 turns from now? Correct :)

Nice starting turns Greebley :thumbsup:

I can't believe we got a tribe from a hut! [dance]


Ted

I actually didn't get the first name because I chose, Settle, then Cancel because I wanted to move th worker first. When I settled a second time "for real" the name Jenne came up. I suspect the first name must have been the lost "default" of Gao.

We definitely discussed and decided on respecting the rate cap. Ted, you may want to put that clearly in the "rules" as it can be SO tempting to use it to not go broke and lose stuff (from personal experience when I over built my army early on).

The tribe was a lucky break all right. I did purposefully try to maximize the chances for it by:

1) Make sure you don't own a settler or have one in production - if you do you will NEVER get a settler.
2) We coulcn't get barbarians since we have no military.

I don't know if there is anything further one can do.

The 3 scouts and then a Tribal guardian worked pretty well for getting the huts in our area. It might not work as well with a smaller map or less land of course, but I think I would try it again in the future.

Kalel,
On the pyramids (mentioned in the other thread), I don't know that I have yet worked out how good or bad they are. Conquests now has something similar. I does extremely useful. Building wondear early is difficult though as it does affect growth. Also since towns cannot grow a big in DYP may mean more flexibility in when you need to start (i.e. wonders take longer to build). Something I need to experiment with I think.

I also really like the balance you have achieved in the early growth of cities in 2.0+. Much improved over 1.5 IMHO. A two thumbs up from me :goodjob: :goodjob:

I'm happy with Djenne being the capital. It's a beautiful city. Gao would have been a worse choice -I was shocked by it when we passed there...

Ah, yes, I expect some true Mali knowledge to creep into this game, Karasu. :D

Pre-flight check:
Our Capital is supposed to build a Settler, and our second city a Warrior - not optimal, since the Capital would produce veteran units; but with the free Tribe, that's acceptable. 10% Lux is worse, but the contacts we already have are propably worth it.
Our neighbors are the Celts, Polynesia and Mongols. Could be worse - Gallics and Keshiks are mediocre, and Polynesia has no real UU (the Outrigger is a nice unit for Pelagos, but worthless otherwise). Polynesia is up CB, WC, Masonry and Boat Building, with 100gp. Brennus knows the same, but has only 3gp. Mongols have only WC, Masonry and 33gp.
We research Domestication (due in 6 turns - good decision btw, Greebley), have 45gp and make 2gpt.

Hit Enter.

IBT: Jenne Tribal Guard -> Warrior (need MP).
Turn 1 - 2950BC

Drop Lux to 0%, we're making 3gpt.
1st and 3rd Patrol explore North, 2nd Patrol East.


Turn 2 - 2900BC

First Patrol spots Sugar to the North.
Second Patrol spots Celtic borders to the other side of the Mountain range East. Too close for my taste; this could force us to expand aggressively towards that direction.
Third Patrol find more Jungle, and 1 Rice.
Nothing new on the Tech front.


Turn 3 - 2850BC

First Patrol finds one more Sugar, and spots the Northern coast.
Second Patrol explores towards the Celts.
Third patrol finds Sugar 6 tiles away from our Capital - but 5 Mountain and Jungle tiles, so connecting it will take ages.


IBT: Timbuktu Warrior -> Hardy Clan
Turn 4 - 2800BC

Move the Warrior East to explore the immediate surrounding of Timbuktu.
First Patrol reaches the Northern coast.
Second Patrol has an eye on the Celts.
Third patrol finds more Jungle and is also on the Coast.
Our Worker has completed roading the Corn and moves towards Timbuktu.
MM Jenne to grow in 2 turns.


IBT: Jenne Warrior -> Clan (15 Turns ATM)
Turn 5 - 2750BC

Fortify the Jenne Warrior (need him for MP next turn).
Worker starts Road.
Reg Warrior spots Flood Plains with Rice.
Patrols 1 - 3 find nothing new (more Jungle, more Rice, more Celtic borders)
Domestication is due next turn, but the rate cap doesn't allow us to drop Science below 50% anyway.


IBT: Domestication -> Mining (9 Turns)
Turn 6 - 2710BC

Domestication reveals - nothing :sad: . But to tell the truth, I didn't expect too much with our terrain anyway.
Reg Warrior, First and Third Patrol find nothing of interest. Move Second Patrol 2 tiles within Celtic lands, to verify it is Pyrene (Capital).
Celts and Polynesia know Mining and Slavery, the Mongols now have WC, Masonry, Mining, Boat Building, but lack CB.
Trading time: Domestication is a second level Tech and worth a lot, but with two EXP Civs around, I decide to trade it immediately.

Domestication to Brennus for CB, WC, Masonry and 10gp.
We have 2 Elephants nearby, but no Incense.

CB and 60gp to Temujin for Mining and Boat Building. We have not much use for gp right now, and I'm afraid someone will demand it soon anyway, and I want to deny at least him Domestication as long as possible, since we know nothing about his lands.
We have Iron in the Hill range between us and the Celts, and Gold (which is nearly as important as Iron) near the Sugar at the Northern coast. The Gold should be safe for some time, but the Clan from Jenne should secure the Iron by all means.

Domestication to Polynesia for Slavery and 45gp.

Strategic note: Slavery allows the Slavery SM (1cpt, 1 happy face for only 10 Shields). This allows the construction of the Slave Trade Malinese Wonder: +1 Trade in each tile, and free Slave Markets everywhere (25% Production, 1 unhappy face). Definetely worth it, but we have to pick the right city for the Wonders - having a look at Jenne, it seems like an obvious choice. I prefer to have the Slavery SM in the city supposed to build the Great Library, since the Slave Trade Wonder is by far the best fallbck if someone beats us to the GL.

For any reason, Kahema is now cautious, while the other 2 are still annoyed :confused: .
Ship Slavery to Temu for 20gp. We now have Tech parity with Celts and Polynesia, are ahead of Temujin, and still have 76gp in the bank.
Start research on Weaving (24 turns), this will reveal all Jungle goodies (Silks, Dyes), plus Cotton and Sheep.

MM Jenne to no growth to get the Clan in 6 instead of 9 turns. This does cost us some turns of research (would be only 20 otherwise), but I want the Iron, and once the Settler is build, our research rate would drop anyway.

IBT: Brennus demands us out, no problem.
Turn 7 - 2670BC

Third finds nothing, First finds more Jumbos, Second moves North out of Celtic lands, and Reg Warrior spots Incense - in Polynesian borders. Is this really a large map? I start feeling poached already..



Turn 8 - 2630BC

The Polynesian borders are not expanded, at least. The Scouting Three find nothing worth mentioning.
Timbuktu grows to pop 2, and I switch the Hardy to a regular Clan - it'll grow in time, and the Clan is done in 11 instead of 18 turns. Research time only drops for 1 turn.


Turn 9 - 2590BC

First finds even more Rice, Second Iron in the Mountains N of Pyrene's borders, Third nothing, and the Reg Warrior what should be the ideal spot for our 4th city.


Turn 10 - 2550BC

Something interesting - the Polynesian borders seem to be the unexpanded borders of their <i>new</i> Capital - at least that explains why the Mongols now have 3 cities, including Haraiki...
Polynesia has Bronze Working.

We need to expand like mad with 3 Civs so nearby. At least, Pyrene seems to be on mediocre lands, and the Mongols and Polynesians should be busy fighting each others.
Top priority is the coastal Iron (1 tile NW looks like a great spot), and 1 tile SW of the Rice next to Polynesia.
Don't forget to move the Warrior for MP duty back to Timbuktu. We're already paying unit support, be careful when you make Trades - the 2 Clans will resultin a drastic income loss for some turns. Maybe consider disbanding one or two of the Scouts.
In general, try to keep the Capital on Military (Veterans!), Warriors should do it for now; we need MPs, and the few TGs can be used for border cities. Try to intersperse a Wiseman, and Counselers are really worth it in more remote cities.
We should have some time to grab the Jungle. Lots of Coastal cities is incredibly important, they have huge benefits (Trade, even cheaper Aquaducts),
Granaries are not worth it for initial expansion, but our best city (Jenne, I assume), could need one in preperation of the Great Library build.

Our little Elephant Farm (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_2550BC.zip )

Edited several times, since I wrote it at home using regular < > html-Tags...if you notice further open tags, well, ignore them
;)

..and the Screenie:




http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/2550BC.jpg



Noticed the Iron is hardly visible, 'our' source is 2 tiles NW of the Game at the Coast.

Coming along nicely Doc :thumbsup:

Here's the Iron
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-BC2550-Iron.jpg

Yndy's up next. I've sent him a PM as he hasn't checked in yet.


Ted

Sorry for the inconvinience with the ss, I currently have no Internet access at home, and no Civ or graphic program at work.

Welcome to the Dyp Mod

I now have decided to not post a 100 page "How to beat DyP on Emperor"-manual.
We have a nice start, all vital resources in reach, so I don't think something like this is really needed for the veteran players in this SG. And I don't want to spoil the fun in expanding your power through the universe of DyP.

If you stumble accross a situation that really would have deserved documentation, please let me know; this could be very helpful for updating the DyP tutorial. Of course, if you have any questions, feel free to answer it here.

Just some small, not-so-obvious points:

* The non-hardy Settler-type units are wheeled, and thus not able to move into Jungle (or Mountains)
* We cannot settle in the Desert, Tundra and Mountains. Of course, we can plant Forrests much later on Tundra and settle there.
* Mining Forrests is a good option, and makes chopping Forrests for Shields only a clear :nono: . Especially since Planting Forrests comes as late as mid-Industrial (City Planning)
* We can irrigate Hills.
* Most Wonders require some sort of prerequisite or even a resource (Incense mainly). Since the "require xxx of y Wonders" don't appear in F6, here are the most important ones:
- Circus Maximus (req. 3x Coliseum): Doubles Colis. We want this, especially since we're neither REL nor have Incense anyway.
- Supreme Court (req. 3x District Courthouse, which in turn requires 3x Courthouse and Water): Free "Courthouse" everywhere
- Echelon (req. 3x Police Station): Free Police Station everywhere
* Please read the Wonders sections of the Civilopedia, it's quite accurate here (in general, the Pedia is correct for the most parts, just don't trust the unit entries); this will tell you that some of the Small Wonders are effectively more powerful than many WoW.
* Marketplaces have no"Marketplace effect"

No worries Doc,

I did it for the lurkers :)


Ted

Originally posted by a space oddity
Ah, yes, I expect some true Mali knowledge to creep into this game, Karasu. :D

Just wait till I get hold of the photos... :D

Karasu,
Is the capitol supposed to be Djenne? I think it is Jenne in the game. We may need to update some names :D

I agree on quick settling. I want to claim our entire valley if we can.

We will need a bunch of workers too for all that jungle...

Guys, sorry for being late here, I can say I am not able to play this week for sure and don't have any idea if next week would be better. Please drop me out of this game.

Sorry again :(

Sorry to see you go Yndy.

Mind you, with Christmas and New Year, it'll probably be next year before you're due up again. So I'll leave you in the roster until next time.

Over to you Deatvert


Ted

Originally posted by Greebley
Karasu,
Is the capitol supposed to be Djenne? I think it is Jenne in the game. We may need to update some names :D


The present-day capital is Bamako of course, but present-day Mali is a long way from becoming a strong country in any sense (which I hope they achieve, btw).

Concerning the typing of city names, I believe there are different versions depending on the language of the speaker (english, french, or local peoples) -I wouldn't worry about that, just go ahead with whatever comes out of the city list (or our atlases ;) )

got it

i'll have to be skipped none of my civ3 games will load all of them say the is a missing pediaicon i've got to see if i can make it work but right now i'll have to be skipped

Sorry to hear about your problems Deatvert.

Just post when you're sorted out and I'll slot you back into the roster.

In the meantime... it's over to Space


Ted

OK, got it.

Ok guys, I need your input on this. Since growth is the name of the game at this point here's my current take on city positions and sequence of founding them I don't want to walk our clans too far. But I think we need to aim for the Iron if we want to have a chance of claiming it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-dotmap-prop.JPG

Tell me what you think.

IMHO, it's way too early for a dotmap, since we hardly know about half of the Luxuries. But since we seem to have only one Iron nearby, this is top priority - 1 tile NW would be a good spot IMHO (don't settle the Iron itself, we want Warriors a little longer). I would use the second Clan 1 tile NW from the current position of the Warrior.

On your proposed spots:
1 will make a great city, but we won't get beaten to it.

2 should be coastal by any means - have a look at the # of coastal improvements :) - 1 tile W seems good.

3 - see above.

The others look fine, and we'll know more about Luxuries before we have to decide.

My preferences are Iron city, then the one close to Polynesia, and then we'll know at least Weaving anyway. And don't underestimate the importance of Gold: It's a strategic resource, required for Toll Houses, Guild Halls (require a Toll House), and Banks!

I agree with Doc. Go for the iron first. I like his small mods to placmeent. I would grab the side facing the enemies first and leave 1 for a bit later as well

I know we'll have to keep modifying the plan, this was meant as sort of a general direction of growth. If we first go for the 'Iron' spot don't you guys think the long trek will hurt our growth too much? That's why 1 is 1, if you catch my drift. :)

On 2 being coastal, we'll miss the apple until we get some culture and we want growth. In the only game I started trying DyP I found growth very hard without bonus tiles.

Originally posted by a space oddity
On 2 being coastal, we'll miss the apple until we get some culture and we want growth. In the only game I started trying DyP I found growth very hard without bonus tiles.
this is why I think the Pyramids are so important in DyP. You have the freedom to place your cities where they will grow best over the long haul because you don't have to worry about the border growth.

I would go for the Iron first too, I don't see any other Iron on the map and the AI knows that too.

Space,
Until we get dynasticm and can switch governments, all cities will be stuck at size 1 or 2. It won't grow or do much until then. Waiting for the second or third pair of settlers won't have much affect on the growth.

Once we get dynastism, then towns will start growing and actually producing

I agree with settling the Iron first. It's too important to miss.


Ted

your cities can still grow beyond size 2 in Chiefdom, it just requires a bonus resource within the borders, which is why culture plays such an important part in the early development of your empire.

Pre-turn
A big step into the unknown for me so here goes:
F1 tells me all our citizens are content.
In foreign affairs we are not so successful, the three leaders we know are all annoyed.
We are strong vs polynesia (who already lost a city), average vs Celts and weak compared to the Mongols,
We are number 1 in points though.

IT
Zzz

2510BC - turn 1
Our scouts reveal nothing of interest, our worker moves onto the floodplain.
We are able to buy Bronze Working but it's 3gpt+94g which would leave us with no money in the bank and only 1gpt. (It would show us gems but we have a target already. :) )

IT
Jenne Clan -> Clan

2470BC - turn 2
Clan sets off for the Iron.
Worker starts road.
Our income dropped, another downside to taking our clan for a long walk. We're still at 1gpt.
Our wandering warrior reveals a camel.

IT
Zzz

2430BC - turn 3
Nothing noteworthy, no new techs around. Polynesians are rich.

IT
Zzz

2390BC - turn 4
Our Northern scout reveals a new yellow-ish border.
The mogols now know BW too, so I buy it for 71g from Polynesia (now cautious) and sell to Celts for 25g (all they have). No gems visible... (or will they be next turn?)

IT
Zzz

2350BC - turn 5
The yellow borders in the north is the Mongol homeland.

IT
Mongols tells us to leave. Of course we will. :)

2310BC - turn 6
No news

IT
Zzz

2270BC - turn 7
We meet the annoyed Sioux. They are backward and poor. They lack Domestication and Slavery, own 1g.

IT
Zzz

2230BC - turn 8
I decide to settle near the horse on the coast and go for the iron with the new clan, that will be ready next turn.
Found Diffa, start African Warrior. That's better: weaving now in 11 turns.
The new clan will be there only 3 turns later, you can blame me if we fail to get the Iron... :)
BTW there is another source of Iron even closer to the Celtic capital.

No new techs around.
Timbuktu grows, slider to (4.5.1) for +3gpt.

IT
I saw a Mongol champion fight, but they are not at war.
Timbuktu Clan -> Slavery Trade (for the culture now and a worker later)

2190BC - turn 9
Slider back to (5.5.0).

IT
Zzz

2150BC - turn 10
No news.


We are doing OK, second after the Mongols, tech lead. The clan is on his way to the Iron and a new one will be ready in 7 turns (a 'clever' MM move that got us 1 extra shield will make the clan ready 1 turn before the city grows, sorry, the next player can decide whether that 1 shield will be worth a build swicth or not).

When the upload server can be reached again I will add pictures and the save.

Just to say that I successfully managed to install the mod screwing up the PtW installation only once (ehm, it's my first mod...).

I then proceeded to a long civilopedia session and my impression was simply... :worship:
I can't wait to play this game, even though it will not be easy to find one's way among all the new techs and units. Really a great job.

Incidentally, I was notified a 'too many hyperlinks' error message while looking at Aluminium and Oil. No problems, but I thought you might be interested in knowing.

i finally fixed my PTW but i lost all my games :( but i can now play

Just an FYI: I have a trip planned over new years - here is the link:

I will be out Dec 27th to Jan 5 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1455234#post1455234)

Good progress Space :thumbsup:

As I'm up in MB4... and Karasu seems keen to get going... how about swapping turns Karasu?


Ted

The known world:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-2150BC.JPG

Our lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-2150BC-zoom.JPG

The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_2150BC.zip

Since I am also going to be up in MB4 and wanted to take my time to play this, I would rather wait another set of turns.
What about letting Deatvert play his, now that he's back and operational? Otherwise I can take it, no problems.

Good idea Karasu,

I missed Deatvert's post :blush:

Deatvert, can you take it?


Ted

i'll take should be done by tonight\tomorrow morning

Turn 0-Everything looks ok I hit enter
Turn 1-I send the Clan to settle on the iron, 1st and 2nd Patrols and the African Warrior find nothing I send the 3rd Patrol towards a goodie hut
Turn 2- Again the 1st and 2nd Patrols and the African Warrior find nothing The 3rd Patrol heads toward the goodie hut I switch Jenne’s tiles so the Clan is built in 3 turns with growth in 6 instead of build in 2 and grow in 8
Turn 3- Diffa builds African Warrior set to Harbor and that source of iron is not the only one for a great distance there is one here
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ5DyP_Another_iron.jpg
Turn 4-Timbuktu builds Slave Trade, set to build an African Warrior to be sent to the Iron City
Make diplomacy rounds 2nd Patrol meets the Incas Scouting parties find nothing except 2nd Patrol finds itself ready to pop a goodie hut next turn
Mongols-Have Pottery up on us
Inca- has no gold, we are up Domestication
Sioux- Have 6 gold, we are up by Slavery and Domestication
Polynesia-up Urbanization on us
Celts-Have the same techs we do
Turn 5- Exploring Parties find nothing next turn the 2nd Patrol will likely be lost because the hut it popped had barbs
Turn 6- A moment of silence was proclaimed across the Malise nation as the evil barbs killed the 2nd Patrol
What’s my luck with huts the 3rd Patrol pops barbs right next to the Mongols Capital, but has a movement point left so he runs away, I send worker to connect horses
Turn 7- Nguigmi founded on the iron, production set to harbor to help it grow more
3rd Patrol continues running from the barbs
Turn 8-Clan build Jenne set to build another I stop here so everyone can help decide were the next city goes
here's pretty much the whole area th new clan can settle in
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-were.jpg

If I can count squares right, building on the hill in the center near the desert will expand borders nicely. Another one four squares to the SE will grab the apple and bring mosts of the land within our borders.

Another place to go for would be to grab the elephants. I forget what uses elephants, but I believe they are a resource rather than a lux.

I think we may want more workers.

[Edit: I made a dot map to be more clear using your image]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-dmap.jpg

Hm, 2 things I don't agree with:

1) Building the Slavery Trade not in Jenne. We will try to get the Great Library there, since it surely is our most productive city, and we would have needed the Happy Face there, and we would have needed the Slave Trade Wonder as a fallback if someone beats us to the GL. Ok, so we have to build a Shrine, and maybe end with a mediovre WoW. But the biggest problem is: The Slave Trade Wonder has the Colossus effect, and we would have gotten a lot more benefit from that in Jenne...:(

2) Harbors are useless in Chiefdom (except for trades), please change that ASAP, since we don't want to connect our Iron now! Swordsman aren't really worth it, but cheap Warriors are desperatedly needed for MP duty for some more time. And if we're forced to go to war, we still can upgrade our Warriors right then.

Edit: And I don't really like any of the proposed city spots. You all still try to avoid Mountains like in the unmodded game; in DyP Mountains are crucial. I do agree with another city in the middle, but it should be directly on the Hill/ River tile.
Elephant Riders are useless if you have Horses and Iron, but Elephants give a nice food bonus.
Please keep in mind that Gold on the other hand is an extremely important startegic resource.
Anyway, Clans are wheeled, thus they cannot settle in the Jungle...please start building Hardies.


Unfortunately, I will have extremely limited Internet access until beginning of the next year (Jan 4th); if I'm supposed to play before, please skip me. Sorry for that.

Hmm.. Ya, it is probably worthwhile to slide the northern town SE, and one or both of the Southern towns SE. The Southern towns were mostly positioned to expand the borders (distance 3 cities alleviates some of the need for culture to allow cities to have access to their full 20 squares - if we want distance 4 cities, I would go with Kalel's suggestion and try to get the pyramids if we can.

BTW, everyone knows you can't prebuild the Great Library right? It requires a library in the town so you can only start building it after you get Lit (you can prebuild the library and have a forge in the town).

Deatvert,
Are you finishing your turn? This game has been stalled for 5 days.

Deatvert hasn't posted anywhere since Dec 23rd so (s)he could still be on holiday.

I propose that we wait until Jan 5th and then, if there's been no response from Deatvert, that I pickup and play from the last posted save.


Ted

Got it

I'll play from Space's save (2150BC)



Ted

TJ02-2150BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Jenne switched to Hardy Clan (as Clan would complete too early)
Timbuktu switched to Warrior

Press button...

1 - 2110BC
Settler heads for Iron
Scouts scout

2 - 2070BC
Settler heads for Iron
Scouts scout
Mongols have Pottery - we can't afford it at monopoly price

IBT
Diffa African Warrior - African Spearman

3 - 2030BC
Settler heads for Iron
Scouts scout
Polynesia has Urbanisation, Mongols have Pottery
I turn Science off to check trade possibilities:
Mongols want 60gp + 4gpt for Pottery
Polynesia want 72gp + 5gpt for Urbanisation
As we're only making 9gpt and have only 72gp in the Bank I think I'll wait and see if they trade together first (I don't think I can recoup the cost from either the Sioux or the Celts).

IBT
Timbuktu African Warrior - Worker

4 - 1990BC
Settler heads for Iron
Scouts scout
Second Patrol spots Inca Worker - Inca are annoyed, down Domestication & Masonry, have Tobacco, only have 2gp in the bank, 2 cities (including capital)
No change on Trade

5 - 1950BC
Settler heads for Iron
Scouts scout
Cange my mind about the Worker at Timbuktu as there are Floodplains to grow the city. After a bit of thought I decide on a Monument to capture another Floodplain
Timbuktu switched to Monument
Celts now have Pottery
Buy Pottery from Celts for 63gp (Mongols would sell for the same price but they are already cash heavy)
I'm going to try and get Urbanisation from Polynesia - they want 19gp + 6gpt at the moment so I'll try to raise a little cash by selling old techs
Sell Slavery to Sioux for 8gp (broke)
Sell Masonry to Inca for 4gp (broke)
Buy Urbanisation from Polynesia for Pottery, 20gp + 5gpt
Sell Urbanisation to Mongols for 60gp
Sell Urbanisation to Celts for 60gp - Oh well, at least I got my money back :)
Net result: Sioux & Inca are down Domestication, Pottery & Urbanisation (both with 0gp), the rest are level.
Research 50% (Weaving 5 turns @ -4gpt, 131gp in the Bank)

6 - 1910BC
Worker road - SE (road to Diffa then Iron city)
Settler arrives NW of Iron (will found here rather than on Iron)
Scouts scout
Buy Slave from Sioux for Domestication + 37gp
Slave E (joins Worker)

7 - 1870BC
Nguigmi founded (NW of the Iron) - African Warrior
Worker & Slave start road to Diffa
Scouts scout
Nothing new in trade

8 - 1830BC
Scouts scout
Research 30% (still 2 turns, +3gpt, 84gp in the Bank)
We could loan Polynesia 81gp for 4gpt but I'll leave the decision to the next player

9 - 1790BC
Scouts scout
First Patrol spots a barb
No trades (apart from loans) available

IBT
Discover Weaving - Writing (could be changed)

10 - 1750BC
Scouts scout
Third Patrol pops GH - 3 angry barbs - runs away
I leave trading for the next player

Our Mighty Empire
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1750BC.jpg

Notes & save follow...


Ted

Notes
I deliberately didn't try to follow Deatvert's moves ((haven't read the turn log since before Xmas) but instead chose to go my own way.
I guess I'll know if I screwed up when I post this :)

Jenne will produce a Hardy Clan in 4 turns and looks as if it's growing nicely. The Corn & Floodplain tiles will help this along enough to consider mining & working one of the hills in the not too distant future.

Timbuktu is also a grower. I went with the monument to grab that extra Floodplain. Again the hills should be a source of shields in the future

I chose Writing for our next research as I had Dynasticism as my goal. As no beakers have been applied yet feel free to switch to something different if you know better.

Trade went reasonably well. There's still the option to loan gold to Polynesia as we gave them 5 gpt in part payment for Urbanisation. I leave the decision to the next player.

We are (militarily) weak compared to everyone except Polynesia (average) & Celts (strong) ???

Combined Histograph
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1750BC-Histo.jpg

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1750BC.zip)


Ted

Over to you Karasu


Ted

I turn Science off to check trade possibilities:

Research 30%


:spank: Argh, this clearly violates the rate cap...in Dynasticism the cap is 50%, so 0% SCI accordingly means 50% LUX if you'd respect it. You'll notice the SCI slider is reset at start of the next turn.
Please let us avoid this from now.

Also, by any means let's research Iron Working before Dynasticism. Dynasticism makes the Clans obsolete, and then Settlers require 2 resp. 3 Population.

Please please please follow this advive:

Get Iron Working ASAP. Get a Forge in Jenne before Dyna. Revolt once we have Dyna. Research Literature, prebuild the Library in Jenne. Start GL. Research Construction (Mining!). And have enough Workers nearby to mine the Floodplains (!) and Mountains.


The Monument in Timbuktu is clearly better then the Slavery Trade. Could be a good idea to start the Slavery Trade ASAP in Jenne btw. And I also prefer not settling on the Iron :goodjob: .

TJ, please don't tell me Weaving revealed nothing in the nearby Jungle? That would mean we'd have a serious happiness problem on the long run...

Doc,

Sorry about the research thing but I'm a newbie to DyP and didn't fully understand the Science/Lux relationship :(

Good point on Iron Working. I was intent on getting to Dyna ASAP :)

Getting Workers seems to be much harder in DyP as the pop growth is so slow but I agree that we desperately need more.

The only lux that showed up in our immediate vicinity was Dyes (2W, 1SW from Jenne). There's Wool in the central mountains (7SE from Timbuktu) and Pyrene (Celts) has 3 Cotton in the radius. Apart from those nothing visible (as yet).


Ted

No prob with the rate cap, this happens everyone when starting DyP (guess it's the singlemost asked question at cdg).
Just remember the magical "3 Numbers" (like 5.5.0) sum up to 10, and none of them may exceed the cap.

Re: Luxuries
This means we have 3 Lux in reach - Do we know Bronze Working already? If yes, only Wine (Pottery), and Tea (Aristocracy) will show up. IMHO, the crucial spot to settle is the Sugar/ Gold to the N, before the Mongols get it.

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
IMHO, the crucial spot to settle is the Sugar/ Gold to the N, before the Mongols get it. That's quite a long haul and we'd have a hard time defending against the Mongols up there.

There's Sugar NW of Jenne IIRC and it's possible there's Gold in the central mountain region (SE of Timbuktu). Perhaps scouting those mountains before committing ourselves might be in order.


Ted

True, I'm 99% sure that would be the place for Temu to start impaling Emissaries.

But we *must* get Gold rather soon. FYI, maintanance costs combined with the rate caps will kill our economy in the Mid-Ancient, unless we have at least some commercial buildings - but Coastal Trade Centers are, well, coastal, and Toll Houses require Gold. Bazaars don't come much later, but are far more expensive in terms of shields.

So Gold is easily more crucial than Horses in that stage of the game.

Wow. "Monument", "Dyansticism". I read the DyPpedia, but it still sounds like another game entirely... :)

Most probably, I won't be able to play until tomorrow -which leaves room for some discussion. I noted down Doc's priorities and if I have a chance to give the save a look, I will hopefully be able to come back with some comments later this evening .

It really is complicated. Had I played this solo I think I would have been placing cities where I normally would and researching straight to Dynasticism. I would already have lost the game probably.

I really need to play a couple of starts before I'm up in the next few days.

Originally posted by Karasu
Wow. "Monument", "Dyansticism". I read the DyPpedia, but it still sounds like another game entirely... :) It is :)

I'm finding getting out of "Civ Mode" is really quite difficult. The problem isn't necessarily dealing with the here & now but knowing what's coming up soon and how that changes your decision making choices :)

Originally posted by Karasu
[B]Most probably, I won't be able to play until tomorrow -which leaves room for some discussion. I noted down Doc's priorities and if I have a chance to give the save a look, I will hopefully be able to come back with some comments later this evening . Not a problem Karasu.

As Doc pointed out, Gold is a strategic resource in DyP and we won't be able to build certain improvements without it. So we need to decide on how we're going to get some :)

The spot Doc mentions has both Gold & Sugar and, now that I've slept on it, has the added benefit of maybe denying the Mongols an easy source of Gold. So I say go for it.

One thing I'm uncertain about is whether we should be building Wisemen, in order to increase our research capabilities.


Ted

By strategic resource do you mean that we only need to road to one gold tile in order to build stuff with that requirement in any connected city?

I think (and hope) that's what you mean. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

On Wiseman: I usually build a few of them during 'regrowth' after Settler production. Could be a good idea to build them in high-commerce cities, that is especially Timbuktu, and the coastal cities once they start fishing...Jenne is better used to produce Vet Military IMO.

Since we don't have to do all the research for our own, Wisemen aren't that important for now.

I noticed I confused Dynasticism and Chiefdom in my previous posts; so to clarify this:

We are in Chiefdom now; rate cap is 50%, all tile penalties, no rushing at all, but Settlers require only 1 resp 2 Pop.

We will research Dynasticsm, which will allow Monarchy; rate cap is 60%, no penalties, still horrible corruption, pop-rushing. Settlers cost 2/3 Pop.

Our goal is Democracy (late Ancient, and since the AI heads for it, we will get it rather soon from the GLib, if we build it): Tile bonus, cash rushing, mid-level everything: Corruption, WW, Worker speed, 2 MP allowed. And we'll stay there for most of the game - in fact, the most important reason to switch again is Worker Speed.

Edit: Mad-Bax, you're right. Only a few Small Wonders require goods within city radius. Btw, did you all notive we cannot build Temples/ Cath/ Sistine/ Bach's without Incense?

Originally posted by mad-bax
By strategic resource do you mean that we only need to road to one gold tile in order to build stuff with that requirement in any connected city?

I think (and hope) that's what you mean. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about. I hope so too :)

As you so rightly say the alternative is unthinkable.


Ted

Sorry for abusing your patience.

Coming back to work from holidays plus being up at the same time in all my SGs was more than I could handle...

I finally managed to get the save, and will be able to play my turns between tomorrow (that is, today) and Saturday.

If you'd rather get the game going faster, Ted, skip me mercilessly... I'll catch up for the next round.

Carry on Karasu,

we'll wait for you.


Ted

:love: Ted, I knew you are a gentleman... ;)

Pre-turn
Ok... Hhmmm... What is Weaving anyway... Ok, dead-end tech, shows resources.
Then, Iron Working for a Forge (increased shield output, nice).

The other point was Slavery Trade in Jenne -then Slave Trade for improved shield output. Ok, I see the plan :cool:
I like the idea of a Small Wonder enabling a Great Wonder :thumbsup:

So, I switch research to "Caste System". Due in 11 turns.

Let's check diplomacy. Nobody knows Weaving, and Mongols and Polynesia are quite rich. But...
...we have some money too, and almost cannot spend it. I'd rather trade the tech for another tech than for money. I decide to hold the trade for the moment.

Ok, I see the sugar + gold. It is a bit far, but we may give it a try. There are also Elephants on the way (ops. It's not Ivory!).

After half a day reading the DyPedia again, I hesitatingly press Enter...


IT
The Mongol whatever-it-was gets himself killed by a Kassite Barbarian Rider.

Turn 1 - 1725 BC
Third Patrol is undecided as where to go. The more interesting route is blocked by the Riders. He devises a smart plan to try and outmanoeuvre them...
First and Second Patrol duly explore the world.
Our wandering African warrior takes one small step south.

Our neighbours are getting richer and richer, but do not know anything useful for us.


IT
Nguigmi: African Warrior - Canoe


Turn 2 - 1700 BC
Scouts scout.

A quick visit to our neighbours reveals no changes.


IT
Third Patrol, in his cunning scheme, stepped into Temujin's gardens. Apologizing for his mistake, he quickly steps out...


Turn 3 - 1675 BC
Some units move, some others are already busy.
The years pass by quickly in the Ancient Era...

No news from the other civilizations.


IT
Jenne: Hardy Clan - Slavery Trade (due in 4)
But, hey, what's Stonehenge? A free Granary. Don't we want this?


Turn 4 - 1650 BC
The Hardy Clan dashes towards the Gold Mines. A military unit from Timbuktu will march ahead, while the wandering African Warrior slowly heads towards Timbuktu.

The workers complete the road and automatically move southwards. If that's a "road to" Diffa, I will not disturb them.

Voila. Second Patrol meets a Siamese Serf. We speak with the annoyed Mongkut, sovereign over three cities.
He already knows the secrets of Caste System and lacks Weaving; there are 266 gold pieces in his treasury, and he will part with 27 if we agree on disclosing our knowledge. The trade is done, and our research set to Iron Working without hesitations.
At this point I don't want to leave a trading opportunity to the AIs. I sell Weaving to everyone for a total 161 + 1 gpt (the gpt coming from the Sioux).
The Celts are still down Caste Systems, but are broke.

IW will come in 18 turns at 50% science, but we are running a -3 gpt negative cash flow. Considering the cap and our 115 gp treasury, I would leave it as it is.

Kamehameha has founded Pukapuka next to *our* wool sources (what names :crazyeye: )...


IT
Nothing


Turn 5 - 1625 BC
First patrol boldly walks just outside the gates of Karakorum. Temujin says nothing, busy as he is with those barbarian Riders just across the river.

The other scouts scout around.


IT
Nothing happens


Turn 6 - 1600 BC
More scouting


IT
Nguigmi: Canoe - African Spearman (can be changed to anything really)

The canoe starts slowly rowing along our coast...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Sunset.jpg

Sorry, I could not resist posting this. I have more, but they need to be scanned.
The Marketplace and Temple of Jenne are waiting for us to build them, though... :D


Turn 7 - 1575 BC
More scouting.


IT
Jenne completes Slavery Trade (how can this possibly cause one happy face in the city...), and starts the Pyramids as a prebuild for its Forge (or anything else).
Diffa: African Spearman - Worker (a Monument may also be a good idea, to grab those apples).

Turn 8 - 1550 BC
First Patrol is chased by barbarian Riders. His destiny does not look bright...


IT
Nothing


Turn 9 - 1550 BC
Timbuktu has grown to pop 3. To avoid disorder, I have temporarily raised luxury to 10% (-5 gpt) -of course, the Settler's escort... :smoke:

A warrior is moving there from Jenne, while Diffa's newly produced is going to Jenne himself.

Second patrol ends its turn right in front of a barbarian Rider.


IT
Second patrol is brutally murdered by a Marcomanni raiding party.
First patrol, cornered by another barbarian rider, dies on the shores of Mongol lands.


Turn 10 - 1525 BC
I decreased the food output in Timbuktu in order to speed up the monument.
Watch out for Jenne, which is growing next turn and could riot. The lux slider can be brought down as soon as the warriors have arrived

Not too bad, considering that my main worry was reading the PyDia over and over... ;)
Actually, not having lots of things to do helped too... :D


The minimap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1575BC.jpg


And the save! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1575_BC.zip)

And sorry to keep you waiting :)

Just as an FYI, I have found going for writing instead of Iron Working (usually?) works as well. The reason is that the AI has gone for iron working every game I have played. By going for writing we usually get it first and then can trade for IW. It has a bit of risk if the AI didn't go for IW, but gains in that I think we are more likely to be able to trade our tech. It may also delay getting IW by a few turns - not sure.

I like the pictures Karasu :)

For wonders, I would consider the Pyramids and Stonehenge well worth it, but I don't know that we are going to get much on Emporer level. If we are building the GLib, I am also not sure we can spare a second town for wonders this early in the game.

Coming along nicely :thumbsup:

Over to mad-bax


Ted

Good turns (as far as I can tell...) Karasu. :goodjob: And a beautiful picture, keep 'm coming.. :)

I concur with everything said and done.

Stonehenge and the Pyramids would be nice, but the GLib is the most important one.
The other Wonders I want are:
- Slave Trade Malinese ASAP. Problem is, the Slave Markets cause one unhappy citizen everywhere. To counter this, build:
- Angkor Waht. Free Shrine in every city, never expires, requires a Shrine in the city. Thus we should should research in that direction after Construction. To make that wonder even better, Taj Mahal (Industrial Age) doubles Shrines...
- Circus Maximus: Doubles Colossei, requires 3 of them already built. But since we seem to have no Incense (=no Temples), this one will help us immensely.

BTW, the Oracle in DyP gives 2 free advances, and is rather cheap! And since it requires a Shrine, something the AI Civs only build quite late, and only if they have no Incense, I usually build this later in the Industrial Era, when the Tech costs explode :) .

Yes, I normally do not research IW myself.

But playing this mod I feel somewhat like walking over eggs... so I went for the safest approach (which admittedly may not be the best).

I wanted to try the canoe -more for the looks of it than for any immediate use we can get. Besides, I had that photo in mind... (actually taken on the Niger river, while on a boat myself. No, not a canoe ;) ).

I like the Great Wonders plan. I'm all for Angkor asap. But our growth seems quite slow to allow us to grab many wonders.
It certainly is an effect of the mod -and it will take some effort to get used to it- but we have two cities, Nguigmi and Diffa, that will not contribute significantly to our expansion for some time yet.

Ted,
I am unsure that Madbax knows he is up in this game. Over in Space's game he mentions catching an airplane.

My thought is that it might be easier for him if you switched his position with the next player. I know he had a lot of games come up all at the same time. Not sure if I am correct, but I thought it worth a mention.

Actually, you're up next Greebley,

So if you can take it and play today I'll slip mad-bax in after you :)


Ted

Ah, so I am.

I think I can play tonight. I will post my "I got it" right before I start, if Madbax hasn't already checked in.

OK


Ted

Sorry Ted, I was called away on business at short notice. I'm back home tomorrow.

I'm going to get a poor reputation at this rate, but things are settling down. It's just the post christmas rush I'm afraid.

Not a problem MB,

If you can slot in behind Greebley then we'll go back to roster order.


Ted

Preturn: We have so many places to settle. I make a few minor changes. I also MM our capitol to grow a turn earlier.

It seems futile to let Nguigmi grow as we get less shields not more at size 2. I switch the citizen to the Iron. We are stuck at size 1 but get two more shields (one corruptued) over what we would get as size 2. We will want to change this when we get Dynasticism as then we can grow for real. Upgrade a tribal guardsman in our capitol for 20 gold.

IBT:
Jenne: Slave Trade->Clan
Diffa: African Spear->Worker

1550 BC: Run from barbarian (third patrol). Odd... I thought I read one of our patrol died, but we seem to have 3. Was a fourth sent out and died? Lux is 10% I also decide I want to settle more. I like towns. Switch Timbuktu to build a clan next turn. A monument can wait I think. I hope there wasn't a pressing reason to build it. Our unit support is 6 now which is too high. We need more towns and have so much to settle

IBT: Several barbs are near third patrol. It is fleeing N where it gets 2 moves/turn.
Timbuktu:Clan->Hardy Clan (feel free to switch)

I am told to leave Polynesian land. I agree.

1500 BC: It appears 3rd patrol has momentarily escaped :) We chose sedentary barbs if I remember correctly, so these must be hut barbs?

IBT: A settler is heading our way from the celts

1475 BC: I have a settler heading toward the gold square. Not sure exactly where to put the town. It is pretty far away though.

IBT: Celts settle. Maybe I will grab the wool soon. That will be their next target.

1450 BC: Scouts still exploring.

IBT: The Sioux are not happy with us in their land.
Diffa: Worker->Hardy Clan (again we can change this).

1425 BC: More movement. Exploring Sioux territory. Settlers arrive at their "spots". Zinder is actually next to a healing barb (I have noticed they don't attack military when healing so I am pretty sure the settler is safe as it is guarded.

IBT: Mongols demand 30 gold. I pay. Sure enough the barb heals.

1400 BC: More exploring
Found Zinder it is on the coast 2 squares from the gold. Start a monument. Move the warrior out of the town so it won't be killed when the town absorbs the barb.

Found Tessaoua so that the apple is now within our lands (on the hill near the river). Start a counsellor to reduce corruption. It is a decent town in terms of shields even at size 1.

Our gpt goes from -7 to -1 due to more towns supporting our troops. Our unit cost is still 4 gpt.

IBT: Zinder absorbs the barb at the cost of 29 gold.

1375 BC: Move warrior back into Zinder. Our gold jumps to 4 gpt. A deal must have ended. BTW, noone has gotten a new tech yet. We are 6 away from iron working.

IBT: Nothing.

1350 BC: More exporing.

IBT:
Nguigmi: Spear->Counselor

1325 BC: Wow the workers finally finished the road in the desert. Why do I get the feeling that going through the forest would have been so much quicker, rather than the 3! desert squares. Something to remember is that desert is actually poor in this variant. I am assuming we still cannot build towns in dessert?

Doc, do you know which is faster to road, desert or forest?

IBT:
Jenne: Clan->Warrior (for eventual sword upgrade - we need some military so I am going to use the "free Barracks"

1300 BC: Someone must not have taken their full turn. I am going to play to the 1250 BC (turn 70/71) date. Otherwise I will be continuously confused.

IBT:

1275 BC:
Clan arrives at its build spot.

IBT: Horses connected to Diffa.

1250 BC: Built the town of Maroi. I buy Mysticism as it is now pretty cheap (78 gold) as everyon has it. This means we are equal in tech to everyone.

I hope playing to 1250 was ok even though it was extra turns.

We have 7 cities while our competitors have 4 (siam, sioux, and celts), 3 (mongols), or 2 (polynesia, incan).

I have seen the AI do better on other maps. This seems to be a tough one for them. I also think we need military even though I built only a little. We are now ahead and the AI likes to attack the leaders.

In fact, the Mongols where shaking a stick at us. I would consider building a spear in Jenne (the only place that builds veteran units) and sending it to Zinder. (Note that the capitol always builds veteran units if I remember correctly.

Ok, I don't get the Slave trade (I actually don't build it ever, which is probably the only place I apply real life morals to Civ), so this is the first time I have tried to build it. The great wonder is not listed in the things we can build. What else do we need? I am guessing it is broken as we seem to need "Being American" which will be hard to get. If I follow the Malinese slave trade backward it links to an "unavailable" slave market. If it is broken, we may not get the slaves, but we do get the "moral high ground". This is good as it makes us the "good guys" who always win, right? :D

A bunch of towns are building Hearty Clans. I like building these, but you can change if you wish. I figure if we grab the land now we will have plenty of time to build everything else later.

On Tessaoua, It is building a counsellor, but I am not sure it is going to need one. Your call Madbax.

There are two warriors in the middle of the mountains guarding the square (the one on the river) that I was thinking of building as a sheep farm. I don't think it can ever grow past size 2 until we can rail the hills to get to 3 food on hills, but it does get us the sheep/wool which is a lux.

Iron working is in 1. Remember that it is against the rules to adjust the science slider down (unless you want to increas lux for no reason). We are locked at 50/50 whenever we don't need lux.

As for wonders the Hanging Gardens are being built by the celts in Pyrene and by Siam in Bangkok, and the pyramids by the Incas in Cuzco. They were started around 6-10 turns ago. For some reason, I sometimes forget to note when I get the message.

If you spot something I should have done differently, then tell me. Still learning DYP even though I have played a few games.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1250BC.JPG

1250 BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1250BC.zip)

[Edit: I see why I was a bit confused in the game. Karasu played to 1525, but the save was 1575! I am really sorry, but I invalidated his last 3 turns. I guess I should have checked the website :( The biggest difference seems to be that I went a different direction with the scouts, so we still have them (Karasu just got unlucky I think, given the sedentary barbs there couldn't have been many barbs on the map and I only spotted the ones near third patrol). Otherwise we made some of the same decisions.]

/delurk/

You have to build the Slave great wonder in the city that has the small wonder.
At least, that is the only place I could build it the only time I tried.

/relurk/

Ops. My mistake! :blush:
See what happens when you play late at night...

We should be able to build the Slave Trade Wonder in Jenne, the place of the Small Wonder - that's why I wanted the Slavery Trade SM in Jenne, to ensure we'll get the Commerce bonus of the Great Wonder in our Capital.
If we are not able to build it there...gulp.

On the Roading topic: IIRC Desert/ Forrest cost the same, but since we will work the Forrest tiles for sure, and hardly ever a Desert tile without RR, I'd always prefer Forrests.
Again, for all not familiar with DyP, Desert have a movemenet penalty, like Forrests and Tundra (seems quite logical to me, btw).

Get the Wool farm, we need luxuries, and that town won't be too bad, since the Sheep yield +1 Food,; it won't be big, but highly productive. Where do the ruins next to the Polynesian capitol come from?
Greebley is definetely right, we should get a Vet Spear and an Archer to Zinder ASAP; would be rather surprised if Temu wouldn't throw Emmissaries against it in some turns...

And I'm wondering why the AI is doing so poorly, too.

Coming along Greebley :thumbsup: but I thought we were going to found Zinder between the Gold and the Sugar to capture both?

FYI Timbuktu was on a Monument build to capture the extra Floodplain tile but a Hardy is just as good :)

Over to mad-bax


Ted

The AI are playing poorly because they are intimidated by the skill of this team... :D

A propos de Zinder, I was also thinking of a tile between gold and sugar, even though it seems a poor city placement.
I think Greebley's choice makes for a better city, but we will need another one to claim the Sugar


Doc, the ruins seem to be in the place where Polynesia had founded Pukapuka (?) during my turns. If it wasn't the Mongols, I don't know who could have destroyed it.

And, final clarification -to Greebley. I inherited three Scouts, and lost two. The second during one of the final turns, though, so you might have saved him from his destiny.
They were the one exploring Siam and the one in Mongol territory

I guess I missed the discussion of grabbing the sugar and gold. Sorry about that. Since there is a sugar in our own back yard in the jungle, I thought we be grabbing that and so I placed the city to grab the gold and the Dye as well as be on the coast. Did we want the northern sugar as a spare? Isn't the dye just as good? Or am I missing something?

We have all 3 scouts alive still.

OK, I have the save, and will play tomorrow.

Originally posted by Greebley
I guess I missed the discussion of grabbing the sugar and gold. Sorry about that. Since there is a sugar in our own back yard in the jungle, I thought we be grabbing that and so I placed the city to grab the gold and the Dye as well as be on the coast. Did we want the northern sugar as a spare? Isn't the dye just as good? Or am I missing something? No biggie :)

The only downside is that we've not denied the Sugar to the Mongols. But we can live with that.

Just to be perfectly clear: I wasn't criticising, just surprised :)


Ted

While I was playing the game, I decided that Polynesia would be the target that I would pick to attack first. I think we can grab their incense fairly easily when we need it. They are pretty weak. The only reason to not attack them first would be aggressive action by another civ (either attacking us or overly aggressive settling) in my opinion.

I mention this because it may make a difference in things like where we want to build roads, not making long term deals with them, etc.

1250BC: Pre-turn.
This is actually quite scary for me as I have no clue what I'm doing.
For instance. Iron working is due in one turn. Is it considered exploitative to reduce science to 10% for one turn to still get IW in one?

I do it anyway.

IBT:
Learn Iron working, research Writing (I guess) at 50%

Tessaoua councellor - forge

1225BC:
Nothing happened. Everyone has IW anyway.
Jenne is building a warrior.
I MM to 4 shields and set the build to Slave Trade.

1200BC:
Moved canoe and explorers.
No knew techs around.

1175BC:
Everybody but the Inca nad the Celts get Mathematics this turn. How does that work? No-one had it last turn. I'll not try to trade for it yet. It's still possible to get a twofer out of it.

I decide to MM Timbuktu to bring down the time to the Hardy from 16 to 11 at the expense of growth.

IBT:
The Sioux want to trade Maths for 80g.It's tempting since I am scared that our money will be extorted from us anyway. But I say no.

Nguimi builds counsellor, starts forge. Maybe forges are not particularly worth it. I don't know.

1150BC:
No change.
The mongols place a town (Almarikh) but it won't get sugar or gold.
The Mongols place 2 vet champions oudside Zinder.

1100BC:
The Mongols glide past zinder.
Nothing else to report.

1075BC:
No change. No new techs learned.

1050BC:
Adjust slider down for writing.
Nothing else happened.

IBT:
Learn Writing, research Dynasticism.
We can establish embassies. Is this good?
The Sious establish an Embassy in our capital. They haven't got writing. :confused:

1025BC:
Everyone gets writing on the same turn as us. I don't get it. How does that happen twice?

IBT:
The Polynesians want to sell Maths for 80g. No.

1000BC:
Again, not much happened.

An uneventful set of turns. To be honest, I pretty much ensured they were uneventful. I *am* learning this Mod quietly in the background, but I'm not too confident yet. I'm not sure of any of the builds I set, particulary the slave trade wonder. All the builds are vetoable of course.

Here is the
>>save<<. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1000BC.SAV)

Looks like you did pretty well to me. The only thing that stands out is that you aren't actually supposed to adjust the slider down. Basically there is a Civ bug in the fact that you can and get something from it that they might fix someday. [Edit: i.e. be careful you never allow the percent for gold to be greater than the limit which is 50% now, and 60% after we revolt, if I remember correctly).

I am glad to see the slave trade worked. I probably looked at the wrong town when I tried to make it. I didn't realize it had to be in Jenne.

Since we are getting near Dynasticism and Lit, we may want to set up for building the library. I hate to take Timbuktu off of a hardy clan, but I think that is the best city for it I would switch that city to a forge and then time the (regular) libary prebuild. Remember we can't prebuild the wonder as we need a library in the town first.

Veto; our by far most productive city is Jenne, and we have the Slave Trade Wonder as a fallback there exact for the reason if someone beats us.

Greebley, you still underestimate the Shields Mountains give compared to Hills ;)

The only question is: Why doesn't Jenne have a Forge (and presumably a Granary and Shrine) yet? No critizising, Mad-Bax, just a general hint: Production is crucial, and DyP forces you to dedicate cities. In the regular game, all your core cities are pretty similar, in DyP they need to specialize: Wonder building, Science, Tax, Military....


Anyway, who's up? Me? If Deatvert and Indy don't post a 'Got it' until tomorrow 17.00 GMT, I'll grab it, since I'm not sure to have net access over the weekend.

Doc you are in fact up anyway, so go ahead and grab it.


Ted
p.s. MB: Forges are good :)

Doc, yes... this is why I questioned my own choice of building the wonder in Jenne before it had a forge.

IIRC a forge is 40 shields, and Jenne was producing 4 spt at a growth rate of 20 turns. Therefore Jenne would produce a forge in 10 turns and its shield output would increase to 5 spt. Jenne would need to grow twice to reach 8spt (base) for 10spt with a forge. Without a granary this would take 40 turns unless we sacrifice shields for food.

The talk in the thread suggested that the slave trade wonder was critical. It was apparent therefore that the quickest way to build it was to build it without a forge or a granary. This is why I did it in the full knowledge that it could be vetoed without hurting us when my turn was up.

Note, we have three or four cities producing 4spt now. Jenne is not more productive than these until it grows. Therefore a granary would do more to increase shield production than a forge IMO. I am happy to build a forge and granary in Jenne, but don't think for a moment that this would allow us to produce the Slave trade wonder earlier, because it just isn't the case.

@Mad-bax:

Hadn't looked at the save, so I don't know the exact spt of each city, but you're sure right about the current situation. But we are rather close to get rid of the tile penalty, and being able to mine - at this point, the spt's of Jenne will explode (>20 with a Forge), while Timbuktu propably won't climb over 10. The only thing we really need are Workers

Why? Because we can mine everything but Grassland, and a mined Mountain gives 6spt...add this to the base 3 from the city tile, plus 1 from the FP... :)

They really neat thing about the tile penalty is that it takes away every 3rd Food/Shield, that's why it hurts so much in DyP.

And an important point: Unless we hook up at least 3 Lux, and Angkor is close, we don't even want the Slave Wonder; the unhappiness would kill us.

My goal is:

Jenne: Forge-Granary (Disease!)-(Shrine)-Library-Great Library-Colosseum-Slave Trade
Second-best city: Forge-Granary-Shrine-Col-Angkor

Military, Workers and Settlers need to come from the other productive cities, Commerce, Science from the Coastal towns.

IIRC we need Dynasticism and Construction (+ maths which we can buy) to be able to mine. Then we need to dig a mine. We are looking at 40 turns for this are we not? For this reason I would go granary, forge, library, GL. I'm not sure about shrines. I have looked them up in the peadia but I can't remember what they do, except that they do not accrue culture (which struck me as odd).

We would also need to research construction b4 lit to do this, wheras I would have thought that we would research literature first and then construction. Clearly we need the forge before we start the library pre-build.

The other thing that caught me off-guard was that the AI researched and traded newly discovered techs on the inter-turn. Is this a feature of DyP?

I don't see how one would be using more than 1 mountain which is 6 spt. Timbutu on the other hand will have +3 hills so +6 spt. I think they will have about the same base shields. Of course Timbuktu will have more corruption.

Personally, if we go for Lit first and not trade it, I think we will get the GLib with ease even in a city without a forge. The AI hasn't handled wonders with pre-reqs very well in the games I have played.

I think it more efficient to continue to build the slave wonder (we just raise our Lux by 10%) and build a Forge, Lib and then the GLib in Timbuktu. When we have the GLib we can afford to put science to 0 which means we can raise our Lux to 40% and not cost us anything. This gives us plenty of time to hook up the Lux in our area.

Your call though Doc. Certainly, your method will work as well. We just wait a longer time to get the benifit of the Slave Wonder.

Shrines are 'poor man's temple', for those without Incense (like us, at least for now ;) ). Neither me nor the AI hardly ever build them if Temples are available, but that's what makes them great - they are required for 2 nice Wonders, Angkor and Oracle.

IMHO, it'll be rather hard to get enough Lux to Jenne, that's why I thought about building one there.

About the Granary: If this would be my solo game, I'd already have one in Jenne, but now it's most likely too late; we do need the Forge-Lib-Glib.

Once we know Dyn, we'll revolt immediatedly, since Anarchy has no tile penalty! (didn't tell this before, since this can be exploited...)


When we have the GLib we can afford to put science to 0 which means we can raise our Lux to 40% and not cost us anything
Unfortunately, this is no good idea - we'll should research towards Polytheism and Crop Rotation ourselfes. DyP simply has too many techs to discover, we cannot wait for the AI to research the important ones.

Just an FYI - I will be busy this weekend. I don't think it will come around to me, but just in case...

Noted.


Ted

:wallbash: Just noticed I forgot the save itself at home, and just have the report and screenshot here...Anway, since we need some discussion before continuing, that's not so problematic.
I'll add the save ASAP.


* Important: I had some smaller problems with the save, the animations run too slow (so I turned off our moves), and after founding a city, it took ages to access the city window, just like in an end game close to the city limit. No big deal, but please make sure to use the same version of ptw (1.27). If someone uses the c3c-included ptw, you'll have to patch it; and IMO it could be a good idea to patch ptw again after installing c3c, since there could be some changes in the reg entry.*


Now on to the report:

Inherited Turn:

Looks good...no MM needed, and I agree with most of the choices. I finally decide to dedicate Jenne to the GLib; I agree Timbuktu would be an equally good choice, but Timbuktu is our only city that will be able to pump out Settlers/ Workers for some turn, since it's the only city with both Food and Production. Switch Jenne to Forge (due in 5), and Zinder to Counseler (due in 2), the Monument + Culture expansion won't be done before we revolt, and after that we'll have Literature soon; Libraries are as cheap as Monuments, and clearly better.
Hit enter.

IBT: Few Mongol movements.


Turn 1: 975BC

Scouts and Canue move; Celts seem to have some nice lands on the other side of the mountain range.

IBT:
Polynesia founds another city
Zinder Counseler->African Archer (Dynasticism will spread soon among the AI Civs, so they'll start the Emissary plague...)


Turn 2: 950BC

Canue spots a Sioux Warrior/TG pair at the southern end of the "continent" (BTW, isn't that supposed to be a Continent Map?).
Diplo check reveals nothing new; I'm a bit afraid, since the Mongols outnumber us...


IBT: Few Mongol Movements; road to Tessaoua completed.


Turn 3: 925BC

Explore. Odd MM: Tessaoua pulls 3 uncorrupted shields and 2 uncorrupted Beakers, working a roaded Plains is exactly the same as working the Apple, since both the Shield and the Beaker is lost. That way, Diffa gets the Hardy 3 turns faster. MM Jenne to grow next turn; Maroi works the FP instead, and a Forrest tile after growth.
Siam has insane amounts of Gold (495!).
MM Jenne to grow 1 turn faster (this also brings us Dynasticism in 11 instead of 12 turns)

IBT:
Mongol Warriors move (are they still at war with Polynesia?).
Timbuktu Hardy -> Forge


Turn 4: 900BC

Explore. Move Workers toward Jenne. Will use the Hardy to start filling the gap between Timbuktu and Zinder; don't think he'll make it to the Northern Sugar before Polynesia anyway.

IBT:
Mongol movements.
Jenne Forge -> Granary


Turn 5: 875BC

Nothing of interest. Celts have Wine.

IBT: Nada.


Turn 6: 850BC

Inca have Tech parity with us now - how could they aquire 2 Techs without anything to offer?


Turn 7: 825BC

Tahoua founded (Warrior in 5). Ack - Maraoi will riot, forces me to set Lux on 20% (resulting in -1gpt, but we have 156g in the bank); we do need some more MP. I move the fortified Warrior neer Zinder towards our core.

IBT:
Polynesia establishes an embassy. Spot the first Mongol Spearman.


Turn 8: 800BC

Ok, Polynesia is at war with the Mongols, fine. Mongols have Horses btw, so expect to see Keshiks not to far in the future
Mongols, Polynesia, Siam, Sioux have Dynasticism - research time drops to 3 turns. Hopefully we'll get the 2 Hardies finished before, or I'll have to raise Lux...As of now, they will be done in 2, but Timbuktu will grow next turn.

IBT:
Nguigmi Forge -> Warrior (hate to build regulars, but we need MP)


Turn 9: 775BC

The Hardies will finish in time.

IBT:
Diffa Hardy -> Wiseman (vetoable, we'll revolt in the next turns anyway)
Maraoi Hardy -> Warrior


Turn 10: 750BC

Lux back to 0%, we make +3gpt again. Like in all the turns before, I continued scouting.

I deliberatedly did not move one of the Hardies, and the Worker next to Ngugmi; also, I did no MM.
Dynasticism will come in next turn, and it's definetely up for the next player if we revolt immediatedly, or wait for the 4 builds that'll finish within the next 2 turns.

* If we decide to revolt ASAP, MM everything to max growth instead of production.
* If we decide to hook up the Iron, move the Worker there. I for one wouldn't do it; we need some more Warriors IMHO.
* The Maraoi Hardy can move either to the North, or follow the road to the West, depending on the city spots we decide on.
* The only crucial builds are the Warriors, and mainly the Archer in Zinder. The Granary isn't worth waiting, Jenne will need an Entertainer during Anarchy anyway. Nevertheless, I vote for waiting 2 more turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/750BC.jpg
Our lands, as of 750BC


Proposed city spots:
Red is the nearest Luxury; no real need for Coastal cities to be at River btw.
Blue is another Lux, and will be a great city in the far future, once we've cleared all that jungle.
Yellow is a good place to fill the gap.
Pink is another great spot, but far away and rather risky.

I'd go with Red and Yellow, but that's open for discussion. Another thing to consider are possible barb camps near everything but Yellow.

Needs discussion:

* Early war against Polynesia, or Celts before they connect Iron:

My vote is no, we have enough room, and Polynesia distracts the Mongols. If we agree on "No.", we should not connect our Iron now.


* City spots.

I agree on both accounts. The 2 Civs are doing a great job of keeping themselves small. :)
Yellow will pave the path to pink, and it would not be so bad for the Mongols to do the hard work on blue for us and if they don't claim it we will.

BTW I'm up in OFW2 too, and that's a new game to me so it will not earlier than tomorrow (and prolly later) that I'll play, if that's ok with you guys. If I'm up that is. :confused:

Good moves Doc :goodjob:

I don't think we're strong enough for an early war at the moment but hopefully that will change in the not too distant future.

The sites seem fine although there is another possible site along the river SE of Tahoua, NE of the ruins.

Deatvert, you're up when Doc posts the save.


Ted

I think the Yellow spot would be my choice on where to settle next mostly because it is at the most risk of being taken. If I remember, elephants are a resource. I forget what one builds with them and whether it is any good (which probably means it isn't).

I do want to mention that the two warriors in the mountains are guarding the sheep spot that we will want to grab. I think because we are guarding the squares we can wait, but we do want to get it soon (I thought it cute that the celts built Angora near the sheep) or the celts may mess with our placement.

Another spot might be SE of the northern of the two lakes as it would expand Timbuktu's border as well.

So many places to settle...;)

Just one thing...we have 8 cities, and 2 Settlers...no Barracks, no Wiseman, no Harbor, zero culture outside Jenne, 3 Workers...maybe in the unmodded game endless expansion rules, in DyP it definitely doesn't.

Yellow is a No-brainer. If this would be my solo game, I'd then settle Blue (this is a really good DyP spot - a good bonus close to fresh water, a Lux, coastal and mountains - not an ugly jungle hell to be left over for the Mongols), and after that Red, Sheeps, the Hill S of Jenne, and if it's still unsettled, at the ruins.
Let Polynesia and Mongols fight over the Sugar near Pink, we have our own. And since there are far more than 8 Lux in the game, who cares if the have one; they won't connect it for a long time anyway.

We really have to consolidate our Empire. Tesaoua is on favorable defensive terrain, and all our border cities need culture (=Libraries). We need commerce (=coastal improvements), connected Luxuries, a few Emissaries and veteran Horseman. And we will not go to war (that is, unless we're forced to ;) ) before we know Democracy, Irrigation, Engineering, Usury and have our UU. Then, we'll trigger our GA, preferably by taking out the Celts, built our first FP, and basically win.

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
.. Blue is another Lux, and will be a great city in the far future, once we've cleared all that jungle....I'd go with Red and Yellow



Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Yellow is a No-brainer. If this would be my solo game, I'd then settle Blue (this is a really good DyP spot - a good bonus close to fresh water, a Lux, coastal and mountains - not an ugly jungle hell to be left over for the Mongols)...

You're doing a good job of confusing me... :confused: :lol:

Oops. You're right, I start confusing myself :lol:

I just think Blue is the better spot, but Red is saver, and IF we had a guarding unit, I would go for Blue...but since we have no spare unit...

Yellow. And Red. Next Hardy to Blue.

More important, here's the save:

Sorry for the delay! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_Malinese,_750_BC.SAV)

Deatvert, you're up :)


Ted

got it should be done by tomorrow night

Turn 0-750bc-Send hardy clan towards yellow dot
Start the worker on roading around cities hit next turn
IBT-Poly and Mongols sign peace treaty Dy discover research set to lit.
Siam wants 80 gold for Math I decline
Turn 1-730bc-Decided to wait to revolt to let builds finish send second hardy clan towards blue dot
Tessaoua builds Forge set to Warrior
Nguigmi builds Warrior set to Granary
IBT-Nothing happens
Turn 2-710bc-Zinder completes Archer set to walls
Tahoua completes warrior set to Wiseman
Jenne completes granary set to Great Wall to pre build for library
Leave warrior in Tahoua
Decide to revolt this turn
MM for growth and revolt Get a 3 turn Anarchy
IBT-Celts are building Sphinx
Turn 3-690bc-Not much exploring and shuffling MPs around
IBT-Nothing
Turn 4-670bc-Nothing but exploring
IBT-Revolt ends
Turn 5-650bc-We become a Monarchy [dance]
Switch all the MM back again
Lit due in 10
IBT-Mongols building Sphinx and Hanging Gardens
Turn 6-630bc-Tessaoua builds Warrior set to Hardy Pioneer
Warrior set to cover Hardy Mongols have troops on our borders in a couple of places I’m able to drop the lux tax to 10%
IBT-Dosso found near Elephants set to Wiseman to expand borders
Turn 7-610bc-Worker builds road Scouts and Canoe explore that’s all this turn
IBT-Sioux are building Sphinx, Maraoi builds Warrior set to Warrior
Turn 8-590bc-Dogondoutchiá built set to wiseman (can be vetoed)
IBT-Siam building Pyramids
Turn 9-570bc- Nothing
IBT-Incas want 70 gold for math I decline
Turn 10-550bc-Nothing I stop here
All civs are up three techs on us sorry no screenshot
<<The Save>> (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_Malinese,550_BC.SAV)

* Wiseman give no culture; if we need border expansions (nearly everywhere, esp. Zinder/ Tahoua/ Nguigmu), eventually start prebuilds for Libraries.
* Libraries cost 40s, and Jenne makes about 10spt; no need to start a library prebuild now, either switch to Military or consider a Shrine, without Lux we'll have to raise Lux% in some turns only for Jenne.

With the war between our neighbors ended, it was propably wise to wait for the builds. Now we only need capable miltary soon, Tessaoua looks like a good spot for Barracks.


Thanks for picking Blue ;)

OK, "got it".

Long live the King! :)

Nice work Deatvert :thumbsup:

Over to Space


Ted

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
* Wiseman give no culture; if we need border expansions (nearly everywhere, esp. Zinder/ Tahoua/ Nguigmu), eventually start prebuilds for Libraries.

I thought they gave culture, darn time to read the civpedia again

turnlog TJ02 550BC

First of all: the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_350BC.zip)

Goal:
Grow. :)

pre-turn:
Move the slider to (5.5.0), we don't need lux to keep our people content.
Change Dogondoutchi from Wiseman to Counselor, Dosso from Wiseman to Worker, I feel we lack in that area.

IT:
Nguigmi Granary -> Harbor

530BC - turn 1
Hrrm, I want to move the worker to another city but it's on a non-roaded tile, so I'll road first.
I have to move the slider to 20% lux, to keep Maraoi content. (Lit. in 2, +4gpt)

IT:
Siam asks our canoe to move away. I will, but not through the fastest route. :)
Maraoi African Warrior -> Hardy Pioneer

510BC - turn 2
Slider goes to (6.4.0) for Lit in 1, +15gpt.
Hmm, what to do with Third Patrol? He's keeping watch ATM, not the most useful thing to do but the fog is very far away. I'll keep him at home for the time being.

IT:
Literature comes in. :) What to research next. Construction is nice and expensive and will allow us to build mines.
We get the Heroic Epic message.
Diffa Wiseman -> Worker

490BC - turn 3
Switching Jenne to Library costs us 11 shields. Can we afford that? OK read the thread, I should have switched before. :wallbash:
I'm switching anyway.

IT:
Jenne Library -> Great Library

470BC - turn 4
Switch Zinder from Walls to Library, Tahoua from Wiseman to Barracks.
Check what we woul get for Lit. From all of them about the same. I don't think any of them is researching it. Good!

IT:
Zzz

450BC - turn 5
The Inca have an undefended gold colony, peaceful part of the world.

IT:
Nguimi Harbor -> Library

430BC - turn 6
Quiet turn exploring.

IT:
Dosso Worker -> Worker
Mongols start the Pyramids.
Incas start The Sphinx.

410BC - turn 7
The slider has to got to (3.5.2) for Tahoua.

IT:
Diffa Worker -> Barracks
Tessaoua Hardy Pioneer -> Library
The Sioux start the Hanging Gardens

390BC - turn 8
Map Making has found its way around but I'm not ready to trade yet. I think we better wait for Construction to come in.

IT:
Timbuktu Forge -> Spearman

370BC - turn 9
I'm guessing the Pioneer was meant for the spot in the mountains, where the warriors are blocking the entrance.

IT:
The Celts start The Pyramids.

350BC - turn 10
The Hardy Pioneer is on the spot but maybe we should reconsider. Settling there will mean war in the long run, because of the cultural pressure.

I hope I did what was needed, I beg forgiveness for any stupid move. :)

Got it

Play tomorrow


Ted

I don't think spots at civ distance 3 makes war more likely. I don't have any proof of this, other than the fact I have tried it before and it doesn't seem that war is any more likely than normal. This is in direct contrast to civ distance of 2 which almost always leads to war.

I believe the spot in the mountains is civ distance 3 or more, so I don't think it will be a problem. I would settle the spot and grab the wool. The extra Lux seems worth it, even if I am wrong and there is an increased chance of war. The celts are not that scary.

I didn't realise Wool is a lux. I thought it was a tile bonus. :blush:

Nice turns, Space :thumbsup: .

You intuitively did exactly what I would have done...(let's forget about the sheilds ;) ). Seems like DyP isn't that complicated.

TJ02-350BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Tech Status
Polynesia (polite, 14gp) - up Aristocracy, CoL & Maths - will sell Aristocracy (Tea - Lux) for 89gp
Sioux (cautious, 164gp) - up Aristocracy, CoL, MM & Maths - will sell Aristocracy for 92gp, MM for 102gp
Siam (annoyed, 945gp :eek:) - up Aristocracy, CoL, MM & Maths - will sell Aristocracy for 89gp, MM for 98gp
Inca (annoyed, 301gp) - up Aristocracy, CoL, MM & Maths - will sell Aristocracy for 92gp, MM for 102gp
Celts (annoyed, 23gp) - up Aristocracy, CoL, MM & Maths - will sell Aristocracy for 92gp, MM for 102gp
Mongols (annoyed, 933gp) - up Aristocracy, CoL, MM & Maths - will sell Aristocracy for 92gp, MM for 102gp

Looks as if there's scope for buying MM from Siam and selling to Polynesia in trade for Aristocracy :)
Buy MM from Siam for 98gp
Buy Aristocracy & Maths from Polynesia for MM + 71gp
That leaves us up Lit, down CoL

Damn! The only teapots I can see are to the Northwest of the Sioux

Press button...
Disease strikes Maraoi :(
Polynesia starts Hanging Gardens

1 - 330BC
Timbuktu is now pop 4 (1h, 1c 2u)
Kano founded - Warrior
Workers road Horse (Timbuktu)
Scouts scout
Lux 30% (Timbuktu)
No trades avail

IBT
Disease at Maraoi

2 - 310BC
Scouts scout Workers work
No change in trade

IBT
Tahoua Barracks - Worker
Incas establish Embassy
Sioux Guardsman/ Champion pair arrive NNW Kano

4 - 290BC
Scouts scout
Workers work
Still no change in tech or trade

IBT
Mongols demand Literature - as we're in no position to fight a war yet I give in :(
Discover Construction - Trade
Nguigmi Lib - Spear

5 - 270BC
Scouts scout
Workers work
Wow! That was a bad turn. The Mongols traded away Literature to every man and his dog and only Polynesia is down Construction ???
Sell Construction to Polynesia for CoL + 7gp (broke)
Everybody is level on tech now

IBT
Celts demand 22gp - I give in
Timbuktu Spear - Spear
Zinder Lib - Worker (zero growth)
Kano Warrior - Lib
Siam start the Sphinx

6 - 250BC
Spear fort Timbuktu
Warrior fort Kano
Scouts scout
Workers work

IBT
Mongols start Stonehenge

7 - 230BC
Scouts scout
Workers work

IBT
Tahoua Worker - Spear
Dosso Worker - Spear

8 - 210BC
Timbuktu switches to Hardy Pioneer

Tessaoa Lib - Barracks
Dogondoutchi Counsellor - Warrior

9 - 190BC
Scouts scout
Workers work

IBT
Sioux start Pyramids

10 - 170BC
Scouts scout
Workers work

Workers
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-170BC.jpg

Notes
From the picture above you'll see that I left some workers on "Road To".

Sioux, Siam, Celts & Mongols all suddenly have Vassalage on my last turn.

Bummer about the demand on Lit but I couldn't take the chance on refusing :(

All builds are vetoable (apart from the GL :))

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-170BC.zip)

Over to Karasu


Ted

Originally posted by TedJackson
Mongols demand Literature - as we're in no position to fight a war yet I give in :(


Ouch, that hurts. :(
Is it something of the DyP mod that techs get traded around so quickly? Must have something to do with all that money the AI tend to generate.

Got it and it's in the queue.

Ya, the AI's are much richer due to the fact they can't always burn their gold in science research. I played the "long version" of DyP where the AI had so much gold, that they were making MA's at a fantastic rate. Some turns had as many as 3-4 in a single turn (though the average was closer to 1 per turn). I guess they were breaking them equally fast. It was crazy.

Don't worry about losing the monopol on Literature, the cannot cascade, and need 80 shields Libraries first anyway :D

What I'm worried about is that even Brennus dares to make demands. We really should be prepared for a sneak attack any time now, since I'm pretty sure our neighbors already built some Emissaries...


Karasu, please never leave only 1 defender in any border city, esp. Zinder - as shown on the Screenshot, with the Archer standing on a Hill and looking for invisible intruders ... :smoke:

Good turns otherwise, TJ ;) .

[tutorial mode] Some notes for the next players:

Trade won't help us much without our Gold connected, and IMHO we need the Lux more right now. The best for our economy would be some Coastal Trade Centers on the Southern coastline, if you can get a few Settlers, get the 2 cities there.
Research should go towards Theology, the AI usually heads for all the 'upper' Techs, and then the Govs; and we really want Angkor.
If possible, try to get a 3rd developed core city with growth/production potential (Tahoua!) - I've learned that 3 cities will be dedicated to wonders, or wonder requirements (3 Colossei!), while the other cities will suppy Military, Workers, and money. Don't try to develop all cities to the same extend, dedicate them. Once we have enough MP Wariors soon, I'd connect our Iron.

And most important: Get every spare Worker to Jenne, to mine every possible tile there - the Flood Plain first, then the Mountain I already roaded, then the Hills; then on to Timbuktu. We need production monsters and the GLib soon, or this really good start can turn into an nightmare, with Keshiks and Gallics running Amok
:( [/tutorial mode]

I thought I would try to liven this thread up with some dot map suggestions. The red dots, numbered 1-6, I see as places that are definitely worth settling. They fill in gaps or grab good land. The green dots are lower priorty places that are worth discussion. They are labeled A-E.

There is a total of 3 images:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Dotmap1.JPG

1) grabs prime land close to our capitol. It will have the BG's and Mountain and can share the hills with our capitol.

2) Grabs the Lux. I like it slightly better than Doc's proposed spot because it has a mountain in its radius.

3) Grabs some mountains and expands borders.

A) and B are coastal towns of low shields, but will make a lot of gold. If we don't grab them the AI will and we will have an extra front to guard against attack.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-170BC-dot2.JPG

4) Will expand the borders to fill that huge hole and grab hills which becomes really powerful when you can irrigate them and have Rails on them (assuming rails work the same in DyP) Probably the best terrain in the game, I am guessing.

5 I am not sure this is worthy a number, but it grabs the hills and mountains.

C) Expands borders. Gets the mountain. My lowest priority spot.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-170BC-dot3.JPG

6) Expands our borders and grabs some nice land with hills. Keeps the enemies more at bay.

D) A very agressive settling that grabs the sugar from the Mongols.

E) Grabs more land and keeps it from the other civs.

-----------------------------

Sidenote: Kal-el, One reason I don't feel as strong need for the Pyramids is due to the way I settle. I only need culture for culture sake. By placing my cities at distance 3 apart, only a few towns need culture to expand borders. Culture is nice and all, but I don't tend to usually go for Cultural victories. Also, when the Pyramids expire, you end up losing culture because they no longer will generate 2 culture per turn when you rebuild them (they are not 1000 years old and never will be).

I am still alive.
I had no chances to play this weekend, but I am definitely going to. I promise! :D

P.S. Of course, Ted, feel free to skip me mercilessly if I am delaying the game too much!

My only comment is that I would move D one tile south. The gold does not then require a border expansion. Otherwise I like the dotmap.

I think D as is does put the gold within or towns radius.

The square NE of the gold is within 1 square of the green dot. (of course) With both NE and SW of the gold within the radius of a town, the gold will also be within our lands. It is one of the side benefits of D I had forgotten to mention.

You're right it'll join up of course. :thumbsup:

Good dotmap Greebley :thumbsup:

I'll have a look (in-game) and get back if I have any comments.

@Karasu: I know that RL has to come first :) so if you can play & post within 24hrs of this message then carry on. If you can't then let me know ASAP and I'll organise a skip or a swap.


Ted

Comments on the dotmaps:

In general, I have no problems with wasting some Grassland/ Jungle/ Hills, but I try to not waste a single Coastal tile. And culture is no item for coastal cities; we build them exactly for Coastal Trade Centers, which also give 1 cpt, and Acadamies.

1st map:
1 is the best spot in reach at all, no question (International Port?)
2 My placement has less water overlap with 1, and the Mountain you mention will be worked by Jenne anyway (it's at a river, and the additional commerce is better used there).
3 don't like that
A,B low priority - the AI will not settle closer than 4 distance; guess I'd prefer 1 tile above B, and skip A

2nd map:
4 should go 1 tile S, we're wasting 2 river Grassland next to Jenne
5,C aren't worth it. Zinder needs culture by itself.

3rd map:
I actually like the placements, but I'm against settling there now. If our neighbors return to war/ don't build Hardies, fine. Otherwise, I'd prefer to end the expansion phase, and consolidate.

Doc, How is Jenne going to need the mountain? It has 6 mountains within its radius. All will be at 0 food, so we would need +18 food to use them all. It won't be anywhere close to that much even when we get Rails. That is why I think both 1 and 3 should use some of the mountains. It won't even be using more than 2 for years and years (when do we get rails?). Am I missing something here?

We can put 2 where you suggest but it will only have grassland in its radius and not be able to produce much in the way of buildings. You are also moving it away from the forest. Giving it the +4 shields will make it up and running much sooner. I do agree it will lose the 2 coast. However, if it has only one shield (as compared to 5+) it will take 100 turns to make a 100 shields rather than 20, which I think will be less gold even though it has more coast.

3 grabs unused mountains and is thus very nice. It is lower priority than other numbered cities, but will be a good unit builder.

The AI will definitely settle A and B eventually. It is also nice coast. I agree on the lower priority, but worh going for eventually.

Agreed on 4 that 1 square S is a good idea.

5 is one of the less important numbered ones, but it will be able to work mountains and get decent shields. One primary reason though is so that all the mountains are within our boundaries rather than the AI. With roads it means we can quickly attack the enemy, but they have to slog through the mountains to get to us, rather than visa-versa.


Agreed that the benefit of C is marginal. It would get exlusive use of the mountain and be able to work unused squares until we can grow past size 14 (I don't remember what tech this is in DyP). I would settle this one last and not worry if we never get to it.

6, D, and E are more to deny the AI the land, than the fact we can use it. It isn't worth wasting our better towns on perhaps, but I wouldn't mind using a lesser town to so if the opportunity arose. It probably won't matter though as I bet the AI will grab these spots before us.

Lurker comment to Greebley

railroads are learned through high explosions (tech) about 4-5 techs into the Industrial Age, I hope you are also aware they cost a whole lot more to build. :sad:

P.S. This game is great! Please don't let this be another SG that just falls off the face of the earth!

Greebley, by no means will Jenne need more than 2 Mountains for a long time, but exactly that one is with the river commerce bonus; considering Jenne will build the Slave Trade, and presumably lots of SCI/COM wonders and improvements, this single one commerce will be worth easily 10-20gp/ beakers per turn (my capitols usually make 200+ commerce late Renaissance).

But if 'your' 2 also can work a forrest, let's take it.

3 could be nice, but has lots of overlap with 4, which will be a real good city.

I agree we should settle (near) either A or B, before someone else does.

5...well, considering Timbuktu will be our second best city, it'll grow to size 15, and with spot 4, there is simply nothing left for 5.

And I for one plan to use our Horseman against the Celts ;) (Wine! Cotton!) anyway, so we'll controll those mountains sooner or later.

Certainly 5 would never be a huge city, mostly working plains, maybe hills and a mountain. I wouldn't expect it to get above size 4 and probably won't compete much with Timbuktu.

I guess I don't see how you get 10-20 gold out of 1 gold. You would need 20 buildings as good as a market/bank/stock exchange is in the regular game. I could see a bonus of 400-500 which would be 4-5 gold maybe. Or is the river gold bonus greater than +1 gold? I don't have the game whith me here at work so I can't check the Civopedia.

In any case, they can use the forests to get the shields. I also see them as needing the shields of the mountain early on to build the gold producing buildings, but then can give up the mountain later in the game when the capitol can use it to full efficiency.

Can we build forests in the grasslands to increase shields like in the regular game? I could well see a mix of grass and forest being best since you can't mine the grass. I don't remember if I got that tech or not when I last played (also my game ended pretty early).

Here I am, finally... Sorry to keep you waiting, I really had to make up for two extra hours today (which of course will account for any silly move I might have made... :D ).


Pre-turn
Ok... What has been mentioned in the thread... Emissaries, Coastal Trade Centres, International Port. Ok, I see it. Coastal cities indeed.

Nothing much to do. Press Enter.

Nguigmi: African Spearman - Wiseman
Zinder: Worker - Worker
Maraoi: Hardy Pioneer - Worker

Discover Trade, research set to Polytheism (I take Doc's point on Theology. What about Republic first though?)


Turn 1 - 150 BC
Set lux to 10%, allowing us to keep the present research rate at -2 gpt

Maraoi's Hardy Pioneer moves towards site 1 (following the dot map discussion)
Move Scouts and Canoe.

Diplomacy:
All civs are up Sailing and Vassalage, lack Trade
Mongols have 1137 gp
Celts, 15 gp
Inca and Polynesia are broke
Siam have 2210 gp (!)
Sioux, 9 gp

Trade Trade to Siam for 224 gp
Trade Trade to Mongols for 103 gp
Trade Trade to Celts for 3 gpt + 15 gp
Trade Trade to Inca for 5 gpt
Trade Trade to Polynesia for Sailing
Vassalage was quite expensive, and I decided to wait


IT
Ops. I had missed Dogondutchi, which riots.


Turn 2 - 130 BC
Move a few units
Set Jenne to use the Flood Plains and grow a bit more. This will probably require another temporary increase of the luxury slider in a while.


IT
Nothing


Turn 3 - 110 BC
The road to the dyes is nearing completion


IT
Our cultural influence is expanding around Nguigmi


Turn 4 - 90 BC
Workers work


IT


Turn 5 - 70BC
Mopti founded: African Warrior


IT
Our people want the Forbidden Palace
Timbuktu: Hardy Pioneer - Library (vetoable, of course)
Nguigmi: Wiseman - Worker
Maraoi: Worker - Hardy Pioneer


Turn 6 - 50 BC
Hardy moves towards site 4
Dyes are connected


IT
We discover Polytheism. Research Monotheism at 60% science, due in 10 turns
It's nice to see that the icon of Basilica is the cathedral of Firenze... :homesick:

Diffa: Barracks - Harbour
Tessaoua: Barracks - Swordsman


Turn 7 - 30 BC
Worker movements

The AI all have Philosophy.
Trade Polytheism for Philo + 151 gp with Siam
Trade Polytheism for 97 gp with Mongols
Trade Polytheism for 92 gp with Inca
Trade Polytheism for 63 gp with Sioux (all they have)
Trade Polytheism for 12 gp with Celts (must have been researching it)

I still leave Vassalage out of our deals, in case we wanted to build a few Swordsmen and upgrade.


IT
A Mongol warrior approaches our northern borders

Nguigmi: Worker - Barracks

Cuzco now has the Pyramids


Turn 8 - 10 BC
Unit movements


IT
Mopti: African Warrior - Harbour
The Mongol warrior goes away


Turn 9 - 10 AD
Tessalit founded: African Warrior


IT
Dogondoutchi: African Warrior - Worker
Kano: Library - Worker

Turn 10 - 30 AD
Nothing much
I was thinking to send a few workers towards Maraoi, which was sacrificed a bit to advantage Jenne. I started building more workers and fewer settlers (Tahoua could start another Hardy, actually). But feel free to change all my build orders.


Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-30AD.zip)

There will also be pictures and photos, just give me another day or two :p

Nice to see you back, Karasu, and nice turns.

Comments:

1) Libraries: In DyP, not Libraries, but Academies are required for Universities, so as soon as we can build them, forget about Libraries.

2) Republic: Never. Republic is totally different in DyP, the Gov of our choice is Democracy; and I'm rather sure we get that soon from the GLib, so no need to research in that direction now.

3) Jenne: Is the terrain already mined there, including the mountain and the Flood Plain?

4) Timbuktu should get a Shrine, to be able to start a Angkor prebuild. And...

5) Don't forget we need 3 Colosei ASAP, for the Circus Maximus - one will be in Jenne, one in Timbuktu, but the third? IMHO, Tahaoua is our 3rd city.

@Greebley: Jenne and the gold...10-20 gpt and beakers: Let's see...Toll House, Bazaar, Market, Bank, Guild Hall, Library, Wiseman, Academy, University, National Library, National Archives, Stock Exchange, Scyscraper are already 14, plus any additional SCI/ COM Wonder...

Forrest: Planting Forrests comes with City Planing (Mid Industrial), so this is no option for a long time

Coming along Karasu :thumbsup:

Over to mad-bax


Ted

OK I see it. Play tonight everything being well. Have you got my mail yet Ted?

Yep,

just sent a reply :)


Ted

Thanks, Doc, I seem to start slowly finding my way in DyP... ;)

Your comments:


[B]
1) Libraries: In DyP, not Libraries, but Academies are required for Universities, so as soon as we can build them, forget about Libraries.

Phew. So I did well to trade for Philosophy -we can already switch the Lib to Academy :D


2) Republic: Never. Republic is totally different in DyP, the Gov of our choice is Democracy; and I'm rather sure we get that soon from the GLib, so no need to research in that direction now.

Phew again! I looked at the characteristics of Republic, and it didn't seem too attractive in fact.
I also agree on not heading straight to Democracy -but, Democracy doesn't seem that good either... maybe I'm still under the influence of 'old' Civ habits


3) Jenne: Is the terrain already mined there, including the mountain and the Flood Plain?

Most workers are busy somewhere else. I started mining the Flood Plain during my last turns. I think the quickest way to get those improvements done is to send there the bunch of workers coming from the Dyes.


4) Timbuktu should get a Shrine, to be able to start a Angkor prebuild. And...

Timbuktu is on a Library, which can freely be switched to Academy or Shrine.


5) Don't forget we need 3 Colosei ASAP, for the Circus Maximus - one will be in Jenne, one in Timbuktu, but the third? IMHO, Tahaoua is our 3rd city.

Nguigmi also has good production if we work the Iron there.

What about the coastal cities? I had the idea that we want them to have barracks and Harbours.
We are presently a bit too slow on settler units -I also crippled a bit Maraoi to speed up production and growth in Jenne. This may have to be revised.

Re: Timbuktu - Could be a good idea to get a Coloseum first (culture expansion), then a Shrine, then a Palace prebuild for Angkor, while Jenne completes the Glib, gets a Coloseum too, and finally builds our Slave Trade

Re: Democracy - the DyP Democracy is the best Gov I know; 2 MP, tile bonus, corruption level 2, mid level WW. Definetely worth it.

Re: Coastal cities - Harbors, sure. But then the will be busy to build trade and science improvements, not military. A few Coastal Trade Centers are crucial for our economy, and when they're working coast tiles anyway, it's always good to have a Wiseman and an Academy, too.

Re: Our city #3 - Nguigmi has a good production, but not much growth potential, contrary to Tahoua after border expansion; the FP rice is a killer bonus resource.

>>THE GAME<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-230AD.SAV)

30AD: Pre-turn
Well, everything seems pretty much set for my turns.

IBT:
Zinder worker - forge
Tahoua warror - hardy

Celts start Great wall.
Celts complete Hanging Gardens

50AD:
Switch Dosso to Hardy

IBT:
Tessaoua sword - sword
Mongols start temple of Zeus
Mongols start Chicken Pizza, as do the Sioux, then heck, just about everybody cascades to something.

70AD:
Kano can't support its population of 2, so the worker will not complete. I switch is to colloseum, but I expect it to be vetoed.


90AD:
Nothing.

IBT:
Tessalit warrior - forge

110AD:
The patrols do a little agressive exploration in Siam.

IBT:
Siam wants us to leave. Not yet.

130AD:
Patrol a little deeper into Siam.
Adjust slider for Monotheism.
Decide to put Jenne on a diet to get the GL sooner.

IBT:
Learn Monotheism, study currency. (Bazaars sound good).

150AD:
Well, I guess we'll get the GL so swapping Mono for techs would be a :smoke:
MAy aswell sell it for as much gold as I can get.
Mongols give 405g
Siam give 200g
Celts give tactics and all their 53g. I wavered here as Maybe we are better off without them knowing it. Anyway I feel happier with 1500g in the bank.

IBT:
Yikes! I see lots of units coming our way. Mongols definitely, but others too. I'm a little nervous.
Diffa harbour - Coastal Trading Centre
Tessoua sword - sword

170AD:
Yep, it definitely looks like the Celts and Mongols are going to have a go.
I whip walls in Zinder. It won't be enough.

IBT:
The Mongols walk on by for the moment, but the Celts still look suspicious. It's a bit hairy really as we are so deep into a farmer gambit that it would be difficult to come through a war with decent prospects for another 30 turns or so.

Zinder walls - spear
Massive cascade as the Sioux build the Sphinx.

190AD:
Nothing.

IBT:
Here it comes. The Mongols are about to attack.
Mopti harbour - coastal trade centre.
A second spear will get to Zinder in time but will not be able to fortify.
Why does this happen on my turns? :)

210AD:
The problem I've got is that I have 2 workers roading the gold. They'll be finished next turn. Do I protect them and allow the road to finish leaving Zinder lightly protected, or do I abandon the road and offer Zinder more protection? I choose the former. I hope I don't regret it.
There is a 6/6 champion, and a 3/3 Otomo no Makuta (archer) who will attack on the interturn

IBT:
The Mongols are coming... really they are... honest.
Jenne Great Library - Chicken Pizza, probably a pre-build for something.
Timbuktu Library - spear
Dogondoutchi worker - Library, for the culture. The Monument and Library are equally priced, I guess this is balanced by building maintenence.

230AD:
Nothing to report, except that zinder is in trouble AFAICT. The GL should net us a minimum of 4 techs next turn, and we will be very unlucky not to be the first to currency. I guess we really are woefully short of units.
The Mongols are definitely looking for an opening. The Celts on the other hand have returned to a street near Ted.

I'm really tempted to press next turn to see what'll happen. But I won't.
Maybe the Hardy in Tahoua can be swapped for a defensive unit since it has a rax. It's up to the next player.

I hope you have a strong constitution, I don't think it's going to be pretty.

Just keep smilin'

:) :jump: :) :jump: .... .... .... :help:

Hmmm, I prolly shouldn't look at the save right now, if I want to get the early night I need... :cringe:

Trust Mad to make things interesting. :p :thumbsup:

I did it anyway (there's a surprise... :rolleyes: )

If we'd want to, we could try to chicken out by borrowing 16g for 1gpt. If it doesn't work we've got the money... :)

I got it and will play tonight. I will deal with the nasty mongols in the best way I can.

I was thinking of building blunderbusses and Oompah bands to defend ourselves with. Hope that is ok.

Uh-oh...
Things start to become interesting ;)

Well, in case our game reaches a premature end and Timbuktu is razed and pillaged...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Timbuktu.jpg

I mean, who has never ever wondered about Timbuctu...

Hmm... The upload server is not working at the moment. This likely means I won't get thsi until tomorrow night.

Ah, things are getting interesting...if there really is war, don't worry too much about cities defended by Spears, they have def=3, and no generic attacker before MDI is stronger.
But didn't I tell you to build a few Emissaries :rolleyes: ?

Ok, there's a trick to scan for invisible units - activate a Worker somewhere, right-click, calculate a path, and if a tile isn't accessable (like ocean), there are one or more Emissaries.
And by any means, withdraw any frontline Workers.

Why do we trade away Techs leading to a Wonder we want (Angkor) :nono: ?


BTW, Monuments are half the price of Libraries, unless you're SCI, and while I'm not against some more culture, always build Academies, not Libraries; same price, same effects, but prerequisite for Universities.

I have the save now but will not be playing until tonight. I am guessing the Mongols are going after someone else like the Celts. We will see though.

Preturn:
We are not in too bad a condition for war. Most cities do have 2 units. I do switch our capitol to build spears to get spears to all cities and have enough for every city to have 2 units. Since we have such a surplus of cash I start upgrading some warriors. Lets see if the Mongols do attack...

IBT: Yep - The Mongols declare war.
An attacking warrior kills a spearman fortified behind walls and a leader goes scurrying off. Not a good result - we have no more spear in Zinder.

250 AD: Can't catch the leader as I can only move 2 squares on the roads. It will escape. I kill the archer.
Upgrade swords to Janissary now. Switch a few towns to barracks. Lower Lux due to connected wool.

IBT: The 1 hp warrior attacks my archer and loses. Some more units showing up. We learn Currency. Since we are at war and since our unique is near, I start researching Stirrup.

Ah what the heck, I decide to give the AI's something to do:
Trade Currency for Alliance vs Mongols + 21 gold
Hmmm... I was hoping that would reduce the price so I could get more civs to join in. They all won't ally except for gold. Add the celts anyway who are the cheapest.

IBT: Mongols Ally Siam vs the Celts. Lose a sword to an invisible unit. We get Democracy.
Kano: Barracks->Spear

260 AD: Attack invisible with a warrior and win. I do not yet revolt, but I may soon.

IBT: Polynesia and Celts ally vs Siam

270 AD: Unit movement.

IBT: Some Mongol spear are heading our way.

280 AD: Unit movement, some more warriors upgraded to Janissary.

IBT: Mongols and Sioux have an MA vs us.

290 AD: Spend some money to Ally the Inca vs the Sioux. Now everyone is at war.

IBT: Suspicious movements by the Siamese. Mongols declare war on the Incas. Sioux declare war on the Celts

Jenne: Emissary->Spear
Tessaua: Janissary->Horseman
Maroi: Hardy Pioneer->Shrine

300 AD: Move Settler off toward Dye.

IBT: Invisible unit attack Zinder which is now guarded by a spear. Invis unit loses. Dosso suffers disease.
Timbuktu: Barracks->Spear

Chichen Itza built by Siamese.
Great wall built by Celts.

310 AD: I tell the Siamese to leave our territory. They declare war (no suprise there), they were almost certainly looking for a fight.
Janissary attacks Siamese Spear and loses.
Janissary attacks 1hp Siamese Spear and wins.

Decide this is a good time to revolt to democracy (cities are guarded), so I do so. 3 turns.
MM for growth.

IBT: Collosus complete by Incan
Dosso is diseased.

320 AD: Another Janissary loses to a Spear. Not had good luck in combat so far.

IBT: Another invisible unit promotes our spear in Zinder to Elite. Our Elephants are pillaged.
Gain Elephant Riding

330 AD: Janissary wins vs Spear.

IBT: Polynesia and Sioux ally vs Celts.
Gain Theology
We are now a Democracy.

340 AD: Adjust all cities.

Build Sokoto on Dyes start Academy (mostly for Culture expansion).
Kano is doomed to immediately starve after growing. I switch to worker even though it is early as it can't build anything else first. That way we use the pop point rather than starve it, but lose some shields.

IBT: Polynesia and Sioux sign a trade embargo against us.
Gain drama.
Dosso is ravaged by disease AGAIN.

350 AD: Not much.

Notes:
I am switching the warrior in Dogondoutchi with the Janissary in Tessalit. That is why both cities are not guarded this round. Only 1 town is still only guarded by a warrior.

We really have 2 ways to go from here - Military vs Builder. I think if we continue to build military and get our special unit (we are 2 turns from Stirrup) and therefore our GA, we could destroy the Mongols. Our attack 5 defense 3 speed 2 units would be devistating I think. Conversely, we could simply switch back to Shrines and such and just defend. Both are valid. If I was playing a single player game, I would probably emphasize military and go for the Mongols and take their lands, without entirely ignoring infrastructure.

We may want to discuss what we want to do as a team.

Have fun, Doc

I leave you with this following picture for your entertainment:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-AD350-Wars.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-350AD.zip)

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski

Why do we trade away Techs leading to a Wonder we want (Angkor) :nono: ?


I checked how much money I could get for mono on the turn we got it. One of the Civs (can't remember which one) would only offer half of what I could get from everyone else. I concluded that they must be researching it and would have it in a few turns. It was my view that since we would get the GL, democracy and stirrup fairly quickly that we would not have time to build a cash reserve to start short rushing our UU. The prospects for the game in my view depend to a large extent on being able to take out Mongolia, Polynesia and the Celts in the 20 - 30 turn period from which our UU becomes available.

I'm sorry about the library thing. I'll know in future. One of the reasons I am playing this SG is to learn the mod. :)

Our attack 5 defense 3 speed 2 units would be devistating I think.

Lemme tell you they rock! When I playtested the mod I used 'em. Very powerful indeed. :)

A free-for-all! :D Yeah, I love it!
And of course, my vote is in support of Greebley's approach...

Good turns, looks like another great game is unfolding before us :thumbsup:

Fun times ahead Greebley :thumbsup:

I look forward to romping over the Mongols. Over to Doc


Ted

I'll have a close look at the Tech situation, before I decide.
As much as I'd like to :hammer: the Mongols, I would prefer to use our GA for infrastructure (especially Mills; Guild Halls are out of reach due to lack of Gold). Simply switching back to Shrines :yawn: etc and ducking in is no option, of course.

I'm inclined to play defensively for some more turns, while building up a force of HHorses, and blow away Ghengis fast.
Our GA will last 30 turns, so we should get about 20 turns for peaceful builds, Angkor isn't very likely to be started by the AI, and if we miss the Circus, we'll have to find a way to grab Incense.
But there's one thing that can require immediate and merciless use of HHorsemen: If Keshiks show up...

Greebley, extremely :goodjob: in daring to revolt while under attack.

Do you know if the Mongols have Iron, or even Keshiks already? Do they have anything on their lands we really want, like Luxuries or Incense?


@Karasu
I'm sorry about the library thing

No need to apologize at all; even if you build a Library, no problem, they are still useful; just don't forget we need an Academy later. And you were obviously right about the Tech trade.

For some reason the mongols have been truely pathetic so far. I have not seen anything better than spears, warriors, archers, and the invisible emassaries - and very few at that.

Either no iron or just lack of cities to build military units.

They surely compensate for that with a string of Lucky Warriors™... ;)

In case you didn't notice so far, the Mongols (like any MIL Civ), don't have Warriors, they have 2/1/1 Champions...so the combat results are not that unlikely. Have a close look - they swing long swords.

Yes, I can confirm that one of the units attacking Zinder is/was a 6/6 champion. The spear was not unlucky to die.

It wasn't horribly unlucky, but it was unlucky. I think fortified with walls is 1.85? Is that right? so attack 2 vs 3*1.85 = 5+ when our defender had 4 hp and the attacker had 6. So it was annoying but not suprising.

Oh, well... please forgive me :D I'm just not dyp enough into this world... :p

Actually Karasu, you can blame me for being too lazy to ALT-TAB back into the game to see what the name of the unit really was and calling it a warrior iin my report :D

Not as much action as suggested (:ducks and runs for cover: )

Veto a number of builds:

Dogondotchi (Monument) set to Academy; same price, same culture, but useful; also, set to no growth, but production
Maraio (Shrine) to Catapult
Tahoua (Hardy) to Colosseum; don’t want it, but want to save the shields for a HHorseman, and I don’t want a productive border city loosing the pop anyway
Dosso (Hardy) temporarily to Colosseum; will be a regular HHorseman, but that seems better than waiting 6+ turns for growth
Sokoto (Academy) to Harbor; set to no growth by working the mountain
Zinder works the Gold, Barracks in 10, and the commerce compensates for the loss in the 2 coastal towns.

One thing I find rather risky are all the single Workers, not only because stacks are more efficient, but also because I tend to cover them with a Spear against Emissaries.

I don’t think the Mongols are any threat (they are building Wonders in 3 of 10 cities!), and the Sioux and Siamese should be busy fighting the Incas and Celts. I’m inclined to not start our GA too soon, and wait until we have Crop Rotation and larger cities. A well-timed GA is crucial, and this is not the time I prefer; we are not in immediate danger, nor do we have a well-developed empire.

Hit enter.

IT:
Brennus asks for an alliance against Polynesia +RoP, I decline
3 Mongol Emissaries materialize around Zinder

Jenne (Spearman) -> Shrine – set to Pioneer (30sp), will buy 6sp next turn, to get the Shrine faster
Timbuktu’s borders expanse
Nguigmi (Spearman) -> something expensive for Horseman
Dosso is hit by disease


Turn 1: 360AD

Leave the Spear in Jenne and move the Janissary out.
Now, what to do with the Intruders? We have no attacker near Zinder, I fortify the Warrior and Emissary on the Dyes, hoping they’ll advance towards Dosso with a Janissary or impale themselves, if we loose with a walled elite Spear against 3 attack=1 units with 2HP,…
Note the Spy-type units cannot pillage!

Cannot lower SCI –wtf, we’re already paying 44gpt unit support?? We most build up our Economy! (And our Military, Workforce, Cities, I know :rolleyes: )

IT:
The Mongol Emissaries move towards our core

Stirrup done, Feudalism next
Kano (Worker) -> Horse Archer (those supplement Hhorseman well, have move=3 and we can attack with then to avoid triggering a GA
Almarikh (Mongol) completes the Temple of Zeus (doubles Temples, never expires). I was hoping the use their Leader for a Wonder we’ll soon own
Incas cascade and finish Stonehenge; some more cascading to Sun Tzu’s and Voyage of Discovery


Turn 2: 370AD

The Intruders are causing me some headache, all 3 are moving straight South. I’m pretty sure they are on the hunt for Workers, but one of them also threatens Dogondoutchi due to his ATAR – I move the Janissary from Tessalit in that direction, leaving it undefended for this turn. Move a Janissary from Tessaua N, a Spear will reach it next turn.
Switch Dosso to Horse Archer, wasting 2 shields. Switch several cities to Heavy Horseman, just incase.
Argh, we’re mining a Hill next to Kano which will never grow – wake them. Same for Nguigmi, which will never be able to work another mined Hill without starving.

Lower Science spending to 30% (+10gpt, Feudalism in 14), hey, we have the Great Library; while I completely agree with getting our UU ASAP, we need the money more now.

IT:
The Embargo against us between Sioux and Polynesia ends – Sioux declares on Polynesia
Yep, I was right, the Mongol Emissaries approach Dogondoutchi
Dosso (Horse Archer) -> Granary
The Mongols also complete the Voyage of Discovery! (May trigger a GA for EXP Civs, hope they don’t also complete Sun Tzu’s next turn…)


Turn 3: 380AD

Move Workers.
Now have a Reg Warrior, a Vet Janissary and a Reg Horse Archer (defensive Bombard!) in Dogondoutchi, we cannot be that unlucky!
Buy 6 shields in Jenne, Shrine completes next turn.

IT:
Polynesia asks for an embargo against our buddy Brennus, I decline.
1 Emissary impales at Dogondoutchi, 1 moves S of it (Prepare to die!), the 3rd doesn’t move :confused:

Jenne (shrine) -> Slave Trade Malinese (I want this finished before our GA)
Timbuktu (Spear) -> Toll House


Turn 4: 390AD

Janissary finishes off Emissary next to Dogo without loss.
Some movement, some MM.
All Civs except Poly are at tech Parity (btw, everybody wants to talk), so I turn off research as far as possible; if we only had 1 more Lux, the 20% Luxury would cause lots of WLTKDs…
Funny thing is, Siam and Celts have no Iron, and the Sioux no Horses, so none of them can build their UU :D – but Temu can, be prepared; nevertheless, he has no Iron. And luckily Keshiks don’t ignore Jungle…
Rush Barracks in Zinder.

IT:
Nothing?? The Mongol Emissary still sits on top of a Mountain, waiting for his inevitable death.

Zinder (Barracks) -> Spearman
Maraoi (Catapult) -> Wealth (for 1 turn, will start Hardy next turn)
Tahoua (Heavy Horseman) -> Academy (to grab the FP)
Mopti (CTC) -> Forge


Turn 5: 400AD

Janissary mercilessly slays the Emissary
Cat moves towards Zinder. Horse Archer moves to a more central position (HA serve as highly mobile Aris). Looking at a 6/6 Vet Hhorseman makes me feel save.

IT:
Temu wants peace. We don’t, since he’s causing us War Happiness, and we want his 2 wonders, and we have alliances for 5 more turns anyway.


Turn 6: 410AD

Bring some reinforcements to the North, and move 2 Workers towards Dogo (Academy in 6, border expansion in 16, but roading to the Sugar will take some time).
Maroi starts Hardy.

IT:
Absolutely nothing.


Turn 7: 420AD
Change Dosso to Academy. Movements, MM.

IT:
Sioux want peace. We don’t. Not sure if we have Alliances against them, but they simply are too far away to be any threat.
Tessauoa (Hhorseman) -> Hhorseman
Sokoto (Harbor) -> CTC


Turn 8: 430AD

Nothing worth mentioning

IT:
Another Mongol Emissary appears at Zinder

Timbuktu (Toll House) -> Shrine
Tessalit (Hhorseman) -> Forge


Turn 9: 440AD
Bombard the Emissary without effect, and kill him with the Horse Archer.

IT:
Feudalism comes in. Set research to Crop Rotation; sometimes the AI goes for Chivalry first.
Nguigmi (HHorse) -> CTF (prerequisite for Port, which allows size 2 cities)


Turn 10: 450AD

Nothing special.


Some notes for the next player(s):

* I mined the Forrest instead of the Hill next to Jenne first, since it could be shared with Maraio if needed. Mine the Mountain next, once we irrigate one Grassland, switch from the Forrest to the Mountain (6spt instead of 3). Maybe get a Colosseum next, then commercial buildings/ production boosters until we can start the Circus – that is, once the Colosseum in Timbuktu and ? completes. Don’t forget the Slave Wonder gives 1 additional commerce for all tiles, so IMHO Military should be build in lesser cities like Tessauoa.
* The Pioneer in Timbuktu is a prebuild for the Shrine, smart-rush the missing 8(?, depending on the mine finishing) shields when it is done in 1 turn, and switch to Shrine, then start Angkor. It’ll finish rather fast, since the Slave Trade Wonder will complete.
* Be prepared for the turn the Slave Trade is done, this will cause 1 unhappy face everywhere – that’s why there’s a Hhorse for MP in Jenne already, and I suggest to raise Lux a notch before, and scroll ahead.
* I for one would start to overrun Ghengis as soon as the Slave Trade completes, and Crop Rotation comes in. No need to hurry during the War, we won’t suffer from Weariness for a long time, better use our GA to get as many Mills/ Wind Mills/ Guild Halls (Toll House needed). That way, we will leave the GA with as much production as we had during the initial turns. And if we are at War, it may be good to have the Heroic Epic ready.
* Crop Rotation leads to era advance – what barbarian settings do we have? Just asking because our Settler is supposed to go in the unknown jungle, right?

(:Papa Doc is gonna be quiet now, and stop telling you things you all know already:)


BTW, what are the unmet Civs doing so far? Except Tibet (Colossus) they seem to be rather backwards :confused: .

The game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_450_AD.zip)

...and doesn't that give you a warm feeling :D ? Sooo many HP...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/450AD.jpg


Edit: BTW, Red is my preferred spot for Tarzan's home, it'll grabb the Mountain and Rice, and prevent the AI from ever settling in our West.

Looking good from the wrte-up Doc. I'll have a look at the save this evening.

Over to Deatvert


Ted

Ya, we do have an alliance against the Sioux as well as the Mongols. I wanted to get the Incas involved in the general warfare.

Waiting for irrigation and more horse before the GA makes good sense to me. Being at war with the Mongols certainly isn't slowing us down. I am still thinking that damaging the mongols makes sense before we declare peace.

Agreed on building mills and such in our GA. If I remember correctly we are going for a space win and will need lots of infrastructure as opposed to pure military.

Despite not :hammer: the Mongols in my turns, I never ever even thought about the possibility to not eliminate them within the next ~30 turns, so 'damaging' is rather euphemistic :D .

One topic to discuss. Some people prefer razing all cities as they hate any flips. Given the cost of settlers though, I feel we should keep Mongol cities. They can't have that much culture so flip chances are likely to be low.

Especially if we are planning on elimination type damage :hammer:

Oops. Doulble post. Must have clicked twice.

Hello?

I'm not hosting this SG, and in general I'm against too rigid rules, but 72h without any reaction should simply result in an auto-skip IMHO.

No :spank: , just want to see this game continued...


@Greebley: Agreed. Culture Flips of secondary cities (especially of non-REL/SCI Civs) seem to be more rare in DyP anyway, and once we reach the Mongol core, they will have no time to flip.
I hardly ever raze a city because of flip risk in DyP.

Quite so Doc,

Over to Space


Ted

I see it. I first have to play some very difficult turns in MB4, so it will be a while I fear. Who's after me, maybe we can swap?

Well I'm up after you, Space. But I'm still feeling to groggy to give it the attention it deserves.

How about it Karasu? Can you step into the breach?


Ted

Got it

I'm still feeling under the weather so I'll be playing slowly :)


Ted

Sorry, I have been out on a meeting until yesterday. I'm back and available now

TJ02-450AD

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Press button...
Diffa HHorse - Coastal Trade Centre

1 - 460AD
Horse Archer (Zinder) kills Mongol Emissary
Janissary (Zinder) kills Mongol Emissary
Workers work...
HHorse fort Diffa
HHorse heads for Mopti (Garrison)
Timbuktu switches to Shrine (Pioneer would complete this turn, 2 turns exact)

IBT
MA with Celts vs Mongols expires & Celts don't want to renew - I give 3gpt to continue the MA
Dogondoutchi Academy - Harbour

2 - 470AD
Workers work...

IBT
Renew MA vs Mongols with Poly
Timbuktu Shrine - Angkor Wat

3 - 480AD
Workers work...

IBT
Mongols & Polynesia sign Peace Treaty (there goes Polynesia's rep)
Learn Fundamentalism

4 - 490AD
Workers work...

IBT
MA with Inca vs Sioux expires - as I'm running a deficit I can't renew here & now
Tahoua Academy - Counsellor

5 - 500AD
Workers work...
Can't afford MA with Inca vs Sioux (8gpt) but they are still at war :)

6 - 510AD
Workers work...
Slave trade due at EOT so...
Lux 10%

IBT
Jenne Slave Trade - Bazaar
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-510AD-SlaveTrade.jpg
Kano Horse Archer - Counsellor
Kumbum (Tibet) completes Slave Trade Tibetan

7 - 520AD
Workers work...
Inca & Siam have Crop Rotation but we're due to complete at EOT

IBT
Sioux & Celts sign Peace Treaty
Polynesia & Siam sign Peace Treaty
We enter a new age & get Engineering as our free tech
Start research on Guilds
Nguigmi Coastal Trade Centre - Port
Tessaoua HHorse - Bazaar
Mopti Forge - Toll House
Tessalit Forge - Toll House

8 - 530AD
Workers work... our first irrigation project starts at Tessaoua

IBT
Celt Crusader (6/7) arrives E Tahoua
Dosso Academy - Worker

9 - 540AD
Ask Celts to remove troops
Workers work...

IBT
Tahoua Counsellor - Toll House
Thebes (Egypt) completes Slave Trade Egyptian

10 - 550AD
Workers work...

Notes
A quiet set of turns. We need to improve our income & city sizes before we can really build up our military hence the counseelors & Toll Houses.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-550AD.zip)

Over to Space or do you still want a swap?


Ted

I have only 2 turns to go in MB4, but I'll need a break after 3 nights of heavy civvin'. :)
So, yeah, please swap or just skip me this round.

Can you take it Karasu?


Ted

Sure. Got it.
I will give it a look this evening

Great :thumbsup:


Ted

Pre-turn
Ok, everything running smooth. Hit Enter.
A Mongol Keshik enters our border near Zinder.
Maraoi: Hardy Pioneer - Barracks
Kano: Counselor - Troubadour

Turn 1 - 560 AD
Worker movements
Canoe (slow) movement...

IT
The Keshik approaches Zinder
We discover Chivalry
Jenne: Bazaar - Mill
Zinder: Pikeman - Worker
Mopti: Toll House - Worker (zero growth at pop 7)
Our Palace is expanded by the volunteer work of a Japanese team of architects... :cool:

Turn 2 - 570 AD
The Jannissary in Zinder butchers the unwary Keshik.
The Spearman goes fortify on our Gold, while the Pike stays at home.

IT
Sioux and Polynesia sign a peace treaty
We acquire Astronomy
Nguigmi: Port - Long Ship
Dogondoutchi: Harbour - Worker
Mopti: Worker - Barracks
Tessalit: Toll House - Heavy Horseman
Sokoto: Coastal Trade Centre - Forge

Turn 3 - 580 AD
Workers work, not much else.

IT
Siam and Inca sign a Military Alliance against the Sioux
Our borders expand and Tahoua grabs the oasis

Turn 4 - 590 AD
Now, who's that cloaked fellow just outside Zinder? "Asian Emissary"... wow... Ok, the Janissary kills him.
More worker movements

IT
Our Janissary is attacked by an invisible unit (another emissary?), wins and gets promoted to Elite.
Diffa: Coastal Trade Centre - Worker
Kano: Troubadour - Pikeman


Turn 5 - 600 AD
More worker movements

IT
Siam declares war on Inca
Zinder: Worker - Assassin nothing more than a prebuild, actually)

Turn 6 - 610 AD
I sell Fanaticism to Kamehameha for all his gold

IT
Jenne: Mill - Wind Mill (also a prebuild for Leonardo)
Tessaoua: Bazaar - Cavalier

Turn 7 - 620 AD
Only workers

IT
Nguigmi: Long Ship - Courthouse
Tahoua: Toll House - Worker
Dosso: Worker - Barracks
Dogondoutchi: Worker - Barracks

Turn 8 - 630 AD
Segou founded: African Warrior
Diffa: Worker - Janissary

IT
Another Keshik appears within our borders.

Turn 9 - 640 AD
Once again, worker movements

IT
Ploynesia and Mongols have signed a trade embargo against us...
We also learn Guilds a mere couple of turns from discovering it on our own. Research is set to Invention
Tahoua: Worker - Forge
Mopti: Barracks - Cavalier

Turn 10 - 650 AD
Some more movements

The Mongols are not a threat... yet.
I built some more workers and experimented with improvements and units; the builds I started in the last few turns are all freely vetoable, of course.

In particular, Jenne is one turn from completing its Wind Mill, which should bring it to 33 spt (assuming no corruption). It could be set to Copernicus as a prebuild for Leonardo, which at present would be built in 21 turns.

Talking about Jenne... it has got its Shrine...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Djenne.jpg

...and the save! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-650AD.zip)

We are looking strong and in control. :goodjob:

Isn't it time to go a bit more offensive in our war against the Mongols? :hammer:

The Inca seem to do very well in their war. :eek:

I find it difficult to offer an opinion in this game as a lot of things that are true for civ just are'nt true for DyP. Normally if I fight a war then I want it to be over to my satisfaction in as few turns as possible. This "turtling" malarchy just isn't my thing. I agree with Space... If we want to take out Mongolia then we should stop messing around and focus on it properly. The land grab phase must be all but over now anyway.

Well, you know that I normally tend to agree with a more aggressive approach... :D

In fact, I am still not too confident with interpreting this game. I had in mind to build more military, at least for a small expedition in Mongol territory, but I wanted to have Barracks first, and cash-rushing is very expensive.
Besides, I had the impression that we still lack some Workers, and we are also getting a few interesting wonders, so I couldn't really stick to my original plan.

Originally posted by Karasu
Well, you know that I normally tend to agree with a more aggressive approach... :D

You can imagine my surprise when I opened the save. :)
I was looking forward to mopping up after you. :cry:
Playing MB4 made me hanker for fight against a weaker opponent. ;)

Originally posted by a space oddity
Playing MB4 made me hanker for fight against a weaker opponent. ;)

I can bet!
Anyway, it looks like you are finally over the hill with MB4 -or just about... that was milestone game, I think -but it's also time you wrapped it up, isn't it? :p

Back on topic, with all these new techs, improvements and units, this game is bound to be slower than a 'normal' civ game -be it only because of the temptation to see them... :mischief:

Originally posted by Karasu

... -be it only because of the temptation to see them... :mischief:

Exactly! :)
But we should use our great UU when it's at its most effective, i.e. as soon as possible.

Yes, it's about time to make the world a little more beautiful...by removing at least one of our neighbors.
Everything I wanted to complete before our GA is done (Slave Trade - this results in a drastic production bonus during GA, Irrigation, and Engineering - to be able to build Mills immediatedly). But please build the Heroic Epic (no requirements!) soon.


A stack of 6HH, with a Spy and 2 Horse Archers as supplement, should easily take out all the smaller Mongol towns at our border without losses...unless the PNG strikes us.


Few comments (as always...:rolleyes: )

* Turn off research. We have the GLib, and there's no way to research faster then the AI currently; all Techs up the 2nd era starters are rather cheap. If at all, slowly research Bridge Building or Clockworks.

* There are definitely no must-have wonders around. The next crucial one is Clausewitz' (unmodded Leo's :crazyeye: ), and we should get the Encyclopede, mainly to deny it to the AI, and the East India Company for happiness. Leo's is different in DyP - doubles research, gives 2 free advances (we have the GLib!), and is horribly expensive. If we happen to get 2 leaders in the war, rush it; otherwise, don't care.

* No Courthouses! They have horrible maintenance costs, and we have our Counselors (BTW, same is true for Universities). We need exactly 3 Courthouses to be able to build District Courthouses later, but those 3 should be in really important cities, like the future FP site - Pyrene?). Best way to fight corruption are WLTKD.

Nice set of turns!

Edit: Just found that:
Kano: Counselor - Troubadour

:lol: Why that? If you want to know how they look, just upgrade our Last Patrol - but if you want to see one of the greatest animations I've ever seen, get them in a combat (unfortunately, this is a little difficult with zero attack). IMHO, this alone would be worth to get one of them to the front...

Doc, you are right about Leo. I am always tempted by free advances... and I thought than either Leo or Copernicus would be nice. But I agree that they are not really necessary.

In fact, we can let Jenne complete the Mill or switch it to Heroic Epic without loosing shields, iirc.

We also have some units in the build, so it should not take long to assemble the stack you mentioned.
Space, your time to wreak havoc! ;)

Looking good Karasu :thumbsup:

@Space: Dicing the Mongols should be pretty small beer after MB4 :D

Mini roster (just for clarity):
Space --> Up
mad-bax --> on deck

then back to normal roster order


Ted

Got it.

The Troubador - :lol:
Yes, my idea was just to throw him into Mongol lands...

But as I said -this mod is so full of intriguing things and units that it's worth playing just to see them show up... ehm... sorry if this is biasing my game... :blush:

turnlog TJ02 650AD

Goal:
Take the fighting to the Mongols.

pre-turn:
Suggesting a Dutchie to change the Windmill build to Heroic Epic.... well ok, I will. :)
I change the forge build into assasin in Tahoua.
Science to a slow simmer, you just never know.
Now that we have money I upgrade the Spear to Pike in Tahoua and Cat to Trebuchet in Zinder.
Start assembling troops in Zinder (7 Heavy Horsies on their way, impressive sight!)
Press enter.

IT:
Polynesia and Siam sign a trade embargo against us.
Tessalit HH -> HH
The Mongols build us a Lighthouse. :)

660AD - turn 1
Accidently upgrade another Spear.
The Inca's are willing to pay handsomely (13gpt+168g) for Guilds, but they have Gold, so I'll pass for now.

IT:
The Celts want more money for our alliance against the Mongols (was 4gpt, now 7gpt) I decline.
The Celts and Siam sign peace.
The Mongols send a Keshik within range.

670AD - turn 2
Our Trebuchet hurts the Keshik and our HH kills it. Our Golden Age starts. [party]
Another HH kills the other Keshik and upgrades to Elite, our Archer kills the Mongol (3.1.1) unit (I forgot what kind it was :blush: ).
Upgrade the emissionary to assissin.

IT:
Polynesia and the Sioux sign an MA against us.
We learn Scolasticism.
Tassaoua Cavalier -> HH
Maraoi Rax -> Pike
Segou Warrior -> Rax

680AD - turn 3
Polynesia in it complicates things a bit. I keep some troops at home, should not be too hard.
Moving troops around, I'll leave Mandalgovi (near the sugar alone for now, to keep the Poly border shorter. Almarikh will be our first goal.

IT:
The Celts and Polynesia sign peace.
Siam and Inca sign peace.
Jenne Heroic Epic -> HH
Timbuktu Angkor Wat -> Bazaar

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Heroic-Epic.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Angkor-Wat.JPG

690AD - turn 4
I try to sign the Inca in our Poly war, but they demand lots of money.
The Inca now know Guilds and are up Navigation and are very rich.
I can sign peace with Siam and sign them against Polynesia for WM and 220g (less that 2 turns of income).
I like to keep the world at war for a bit longer so I make the deal.
As a bonus Siam ends his trade embargo against us with the Mongols. :)

IT:
We learn Navigation.
Kano Pike -> Forge

700AD - turn 5
Our scouting assassin kills a Keshik. :)
We can now trade with Siam and the Inca, not with the Celts. They both have Incense.
The Celts will give us 57g for WM, sure. Siam 2g, the Incas 111g. :)
Upgrade the wounded Archer to a Crossbow, 2 more Spears to Pikes.

IT:
Polynesia sends an Elephant Rider.
Jenne HH -> Guild Hall (it's making 50spt ATM so it's ready in 4 turns)
Mopti Cavalier -> Cavalier

710AD - turn 6
The Heavy Horseman I kept behind kills the Elephant.

IT:
The Celts are finally sending troops to Mongolia
A Keshik commits suicide on a HH.
Diffa Janissary -> Port
Nguigmi Courthouse -> Toll House
Tessaoua HH -> HH
Tessalit HH -> Horse Archer

720AD - turn 7
Our troops easily kill the 3 Otomo Spears that where defending Almarikh even though it is on a hill.
So...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Almarikh.JPG

I put the city on a starvation diet to kill the 1 resister.

IT:
The Celts wanna share WMs, I agree when they add 5g.
Dosso is attacked by an invisible unit, it holds easily.
A Keshik attacks and kills a HH, signing its faith.
Timbuktu Bazaar -> Cavalier
Dogondoutchi Rax -> Pike

730AD - turn 8
Our Cavalier kills the Keshik.
Dalandzadgad was defended by 1 Otomo Spear. :evil:
Usury (Markets) will come in next turn, all AI know it.

IT:
The Celts have a decent sized army, 2 units poise on one of our mountains... hm.
We learn Usury.
Maraoi Pike -> Bazaar
Dosso Rax -> Pike
Sokoto Forge -> Rax

740AD - turn 9
Loan 78g from the Celts for 5gp, I am impressed with the forces that come marching by.
We kill 3 units in Tabriz, but it has 1 more unit. It is their Horse town so it's worth taking!

IT:
Nguigmi Toll House -> Explorer
Tahoua Assissin -> Assassin (this reveals 4 Celtic assassins, I can't attack without declaring war)

750AD - turn 10
We take Tabriz and their source of Keshiks! [dance]

Who wants to play in a Golden Age? (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-750AD.zip)

The current situation:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Our-Turf.JPG

An excellent war, Space :hammer: I think we timed it pretty well.

I assume we are planning on a palace in the Mongol lands? Can we build the FP yet? I am thinking we should have that tech by now.

Yeah, we can build the FP and that would be a good spot, if things work along the same lines as in a 'normal' PTW game.

We should do something about the Celts, they have about 7 4.1.2 troops moving up north, ignoring the Mongolian city I left behind. They want either a Wonder of a Lux/Resource, maybe we can block 'm long enough to get te good stuff before they arrive.

MM Note: Dalandzadgad will riot as it has 1 unhappy, 2 resisters in the save.

[Edit: The mongols have Incense]

I loaded the save to make sure things hadn't changed between 1.5 (which I remember) and 2.0.

The biggest difference is that you get 4 palaces, the Palace, the Forbidden Palace, Winter Palace, and Summer Palace (I thought there was a great wonder palace, but did not see it).

The summer comes midway through the Medieval Era, and the Winter comes midway through the Indistrial Era.

I think the FP should be mongol territory, the Summer perhaps where Siam is if we have conquered that far, and the Winter either on the other continent or North of the Summer. Bit hard to predict as we don't have the lands yet, and may (should?) play more peaceful.

I got curious from the discussions with Doc on how many cash increasing buildings there are, so I did a quick check. I got:
Bank: +50%
Bazaar: +50%
Casino: +50%
Corporate Office: +50%
Customs House: +50% for Absolute Monarchy
(Note that Dept Stores do not increase Revenue)
Guild Hall: +50%
Market Place: +50%
Skyscraper: +50%
Stock Exchange: +50%
Super Highway: +50%
Toll House: +50%

So your gold is multiplied by 6 (+500%) with all 10 non-goverment specific buildings and 6.5 with the coastal trade center.

Coast:
Coastal Trade Center +50%
<Commercial Port and Fishery increase Water squares by 1>

I see what Doc means about coasts being powerful producers of incoming gold! Now I wish we had settled our coast west of Jenne to cover more coast. Two coastal squares include a mountain (and so could have the shields to build some of these buildings), but they are too close to Segou. I think we should move Segou to be on the 2 coastal squares that include the mountain and (less important) another city to cover the coast to the N. For example, Segou one square S of its current location would get the +6 shields from using the mountain and probably be able to make very decent gold by the end.

Anyway enough rambling... back to your everyday civ game...

Originally posted by a space oddity
Suggesting a Dutchie to change the Windmill build to Heroic Epic....

:lol: But you didn't build it afterwards, did you? ;)

Good fighting anyway, you really make me wish I had started this war!

BTW, I agree on placing the FP in mongol lands.

I'm sorry guys but I need a skip. Hopefully by the time my turn comes round again things will have settled down a little. but ATM I can't plan when I'll be able to play.

OK MB,

Over to Greebley


Ted

Ok, I have got it.

Preturn: We are at war with 3 nations. We want to continue vs the Mongols, and have a treaty vs the Polynesians, but no MA vs the Sioux. I think I will make peace with the Sioux. It is a pointless war anyway.

I decide I really do like one square to the S of Segou enough to move the town. I switch to a hardy and rush. The reason is that it can generate huge cash, but needs more shields. One square S gets the +6 shields from the mountain.

A few minor tweaks and move a unit that has healed forward. It attacks an invisible unit taking damage so I also protect it.

For example, I change Sokoto to a Mill from a barrack. I am thinking it may spend its life building the huge list of science and gold enhancing buildings.

IBT: See Celtic movement only.
Jenne: Guild Hall->Wind Mill
Timbuktu: Cavalier->Mill
Tessaoua: Mali HH->Mill
Mopti: Cavalier->Mali HH
Tessalti: Horse Archer->Pike

760 AD:
Kill 2 pike in Daman.

IBT: Attacked by an elephant.
We gain invention from the GLib we start Bridge building
Diffa: Port->Naval Base

770 AD:
Kill last Pike and capture Darhan.
Attack Kazan and kill a Pike,

IBT: Mongols and Siam ally vs Sioux (Mongols vs Sioux - now there is a meaningful conflict)
Polynesia declare war vs Incas. Polynesia declare war vs Celts. They have gone mad!
Jenne:Wind Mill->Toll House
Dogondoutchi: Hardy Pioneer->Forge
Kano: Forge->Mill
Egypt builds Circus Maximus

780 AD:
Attack and Capture Kazan
Rebuild Segou. I hope this really does make a difference and I am not just smoking. Otherwise I just wasted several turns...

IBT: Umm.. Polynesia made a big mistake. Celts turn toward them instead of the Mongols. They lose one city. I was thinking of attacking that city, but they were closer.
Celts and Siam agree to eliminate the Sioux.
Polynesia wants peace - not going to break our MA.
Sioux want to embargo Siam. Nope.
Jenne: Toll House->Copernicus (what the hey. It is only 11 turns).
Timbuktu: Mill->Counsellor
Nguigmi: Hardy Pioneer->Carrack (fastest ship avail)
Tessalit: Pike->Counsellor

790 AD:
Attack Ulaanbaatar
Build Maiduguri

Our large number of rivers are really annoying. Bridge building in 3 turns.

IBT: Celts make attack on Ulaanbaatar which fails.
Timbuktu: Counselor->Guild Hall
Mopti: Mali HH->Aquaduct

800 AD:
Capture Ulaanbaatar.

IBT: Inca and mongols sign peace.
We get Alchemy from the GLib
Zinder: Hardy Pioneer->Pike
Tessaoua: Mill->Wind Mill
Tessalit: Counsellor->Wind Mill

810 AD:
Attack Korakorum (Mongol Capitol) and lose a Cavalier
Attack Ta-Tu and capure it. We get the Great Light House. We also get Incense.
Attack Polynesian capitol Takei.

Ship meets Persia on the other continent. Trade Alchemy for world map 4 gpt and 7 gold.
Build Oshogbo.

IBT: Celts Take Takei first. Dang It!
We learn Bridge Building. Get Strategy from the GLib.
Tibet finishes Sun Tzu

820 AD: Meet Egypt.
Attack Korakorum
Decide Amarikh is the best place for the FP (Not completely corrupt basically in the center).
Takei attack force stops to heal.

Trade Bridge Building for Fruit, WM, 330 gold from the Incas.
Trade Alchemy to the Sioux for Tea and 20 gold. We may not get Tea long, the Sioux have 2 cities.
Trade Bridge Building for 370 gold with Siam
Trade Bridge Building to the Celts for 13 gpt and 29 gold.
Trade Invention with Persia for 52 gpt and 99 gold
Our cities are all pretty happy now with 5 Lux.

We will be meeting Tibet next turn.

IBT: Looks like Celts will get Polynesia and we get Mongol territory.
Diffa: Naval Base->Carrack
Maraoi: Baazar->Forge
Amarikh: Counselor->Mill
Tahoua: Assassin->Mill
Dosso: Pike->Counselor
Segou: Harbor->Forge

830 AD:
Build Djado (completes road).
Decide that waiting for the AI to research is pointless. Switch to Clockworks and Speed research. We have plenty o cash. Besides we seem to be able to sell the techs for as much gold as we would have saved up not researching.

IBT: Mongols and Siam ally vs Polynesia.
Dalandzagad: Worker->Counsselor

840 AD:
Attack Choybalsan and capture it (only 1 defender).
Cool! We have a mine on grasslands that give us 0 shields :crazyeye: I may change that to irrigation just as a whim.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-GrassMine.JPG

Hurry Mill in Amarikh.
Decide Nguigmi won't build a Carrack, since Diffa is making Veteran ones. Switch to Windmill.

IBT:
Timbuktu: Guild Hall->Wind Mill
Amarikh: Mill->Forbidden Palace (in 13!)

850 AD:
Attack and Capture Hoyd We get the voyage of discovery. This is the last mongol city on the Peninsula. The one remaining mongol city is near Zinder.

Notes:
As you may have noticed a vast majority of build choices were shield-raising. We don't need cash or science at the moment, and our present Military is good enough for the Mongols. We do need Pikemen for our new lands.

We are working on clockwork which is yet another shield enhancer. I would sell the tech for the cash. Might as well gut the AI of cash if we can. I would keep up research for as long as the AI have cash to dish out to pay for it and it seems profitable.

There are now 3 significant AI on our continent: The Celts, Siam, and Incans. The Polynesians have 2 cities, Mongols 1, and the Sioux 5 small ones (size 1 or 2 fishing villages).

As an aside, I cannot find the Polynesian's second city. It is not on our continent and must be on an island.

The Celts are big now and have a strong military. They will almost certainly be our next targets, but not for a while I think. I did try to leave some offense on the Celtic border for just in case, though it is probably not sufficient. I figure we will be moving the forces currently in the old mongol territory back south

The mongols should be easy to destroy once you get units back to attack the final town.

Note that ship upgrades can only be done in Diffa with the Naval Base. I was thinking of leaving Diffa on ship Production for a bit so we don't need to worry about the AI dropping off units in later wars.

Our boat on the other continent is heading around to meet the Romans. That will be everyone but the Germans way to the north.

Here is a pic of the Mongol lands.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-AD950.JPG

Have fun Doc. We are looking strong:

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-850AD.zip)

Well played Greebley :thumbsup:

Those Mongols weren't as hard as they looked :)

Over to Doc


Ted

Space made the right call going for their horses. Without the Keshiks they were truly a push over.

The celts will be a very different kettle of fish. They had at least 15 knight/Cavalier units that I saw. I wish we had gotten the Polynesian capitol instead of them. I guessed wrong on the number of defenders and they got it instead of us. I needed to not make my last attack. That was the incense town. It is fortunate the Mongols had incense.

BTW, The mine on grassland pic comes from when you build a mine in a forest and then clear the forest.

See it, got it.

Nice job with the war...unfortunately it looks like there's not much left for me to kill :D .

Some comments:

I 100% agree with Greebley's decision to relocate Segu - especially since it now ends up where I suggested :)

Why does Mopti build an Aquaduct? Isn't it coastal, thus it can build a Port)

Good choice for the FP, good choice to try for Copernicus (Leo's is just too expensive). We missed the Circus, but with the Tempel of Zeus, we can handle that.

About the FPs: We have 3, the former 4th one (Supreme Court Great Wonder) now gives Courthouse-equivalents everywhere, one of the best wonders available IMHO.

And I also agree, now it's about time to research for ourselves; I really want to know where Saltpeter is before ending the :hammer: - maybe we'll have to turn against the Celts ASAP.

Regarding our Commerce-discussion: Greebley, you didn't consider the plethora of wonders which also give commerce boni, brokerage firm, central bank, wall street etc, that's why I said 1 more commerce in Jenne will result in 10+gpt.
And yes, those coastal towns run our economy and research - imagine what an incredible effect 10 of them with Commercial docks have!

Thanks for pointing out the Aquaduct. I had forgotten about the Ports when I chose it.

I took a look at the wonders as you suggested and see what you mean. The small wonders especially. Around +10 is seems pretty accurate for the max possible.

(I'll play tonight, will post tomorrow.)

Well, we know a lot more about the world since my last turns!

Inherited turn:

Change some builds:

Mopti (Aquaduct) -> Bazaar ; doesn’t need an Aquaduct, since it’s coastal, but switching to the Port would waste 48s. Note the Port cost only 1gpt (instead of 2), and produces 1cpt, so its clearly better to wait a few more turns
Zinder (Pike) -> Forge
Tabriz (Treb) -> Academy
Almarikh (FP) -> Forge
Darhan and most other former Mongol cities (Counselors) -> Academies (all the Counselours won’t finish before the FP, and Hey, this is ptw!, we don’t need Counselors close to our FP :wink: )
Karakorum (Counselor) -> Temple
Kano (Mill) -> Hhorse (the maintenance of the Mill is simply not worth it for a size 2 town)

Push Lux to 30% to get WLTKDs, still make +21gpt and get Clockworks in 4.


Enter.
IBT: Nothing but 2 Canoes move.

Tessaoua (Wind Mill) -> Guild Hall
Dosso (Counselor) -> Forge
Kano (Hhorse) -> Pike (ex-Mongolia needs garrisons)
Mopti (Bazaar) -> Worker
Maiduguri (Counselor) -> Forge

All bigger cities are in WLTKD mode (size 5 is enough in DyP)

Tibet starts Leonardo’s


Turn 1: 860 AD

Workers work; start to move troops to Djadjo; disband our Canoe (it won’t discover anything new ever, and we’re already paying 86gpt unit support).
Burn some money for the Forge in Almarikh.

IBT: Inca declares on Siam

Timbuktu (Wind Mill) -> Granary (1 turn!)
Maraoi (Forge) -> Horse Archer
Almarikh (Forge) -> Temple
Mopti (Worker) -> Port
Tessalit (Wind Mill) -> Worker (cannot grow, and this will allow Dosso to reach the WLTKD size)
Sokoto (Mill) -> Granary
Djado (Academy) -> Forge


Turn 2: 870AD

Several Civs know Clockworks, so I turn off research for 1 turn (+390gpt). Buy Tobacco and their TM from Incas for Elephants, WM and 90gp. Trade our WM around for small change on our continent only, if we’d need money, we could get a lot from Tibet and Egypt, but it’s better to wait until we meet the Romans at al .
Start a road to Brennus, he has 3 spare Cotton.
Burn more money; Temple in Karakorum, 2 more Academies.

IBT: Celts reinforce towards the last Mongol city; phew, a yellow (Polynesia? Mongolia?) Assassin attacks our Assassin covering the Worker stack next to Almarikh, but we win with 1HP left.
Clockworks comes in (note Town Clocks only give +25% production, and are rather expensive, so only build them in a few core cities that really need max production). Start Banking, usually the AI heads for Gunpowder first, and a few Banks in the GA would be nice.

Karakorum (Temple) -> Forge
Timbuktu (Granary) -> Marketplace
Nguigmi (Wind Mill) -> Bazaar
Kazan (Academy) -> Forge
Dogondoutchi (Forge) -> Granary - the Jungle towns really need them, since they’ll be hit by disease sooner or later
Tessalit (Worker) -> Granary
Oshogbo (Counselor) -> Academy


Turn 3: 880AD

Road to Brennus completes; he lacks all strategic resources in his core and would pay an arm and a leg for Horses, but sorry, we don’t need a neighbor with Cavaliers (he will get Iron soon, once his road to Tikei or Hiva finishes, giving him Incense for Temples = culture). So I give him Dyes and Elephants for Cotton, WM and 150gp. Still one unhappy citizen in Almarikh, so I keep Lux at 30% for one more turn, and rush the Temple. There’s a Mongol Canoe rowing around, I’m 99% sure it carries an Assassin (amphibious!), and we still have some empty cities in our Mongolian province :smoke: . For the same reason, I keep our wounded Assassin in the open – better loose him and some Slaves, than a city.
Sell Invention to Egypt for 90gp and WM, her neighbors know it already. Meet a Persian War Galley; luckily, even if it rows towards our continent, we’ll see it first, and can broker our WM.
Banking in 5 at –3gpt.

IBT: Siam wants an Embargo against Sioux, but no.
Inca wants to trade WM, and I’m generous.
A Mongol Monk (their 4/1/3 unit) redlines an exposed Cavalier.

Almarikh (Temple, + WLTKD) -> FP in 10 turns
Mopti (Port) -> Wiseman
2 Palace expansions.
Egypt starts Copernicus

Turn 4: 890AD

Meet Rome, they are still ancient (but the stupid advisor tells me “The Roman Achievements match ours.”), and have absolutely nothing of interest.
Concentrate some Worker stacks in Mongolia, allowing me to put at least a Horse Archer in every city there. Unfortunately, I cannot reinforce Kazan, with the Mongol Canoe 1 tile away…
Finally have some troops to approach the last Mongol town – guess we “suffer” from War Happiness, but I don’t want Brennus getting the 2 Sugar there.
Still cannot lower Lux, since we lost our supply of Tea (the Incas razed Bear Butte) , but with some WLTKs we are at +3gpt now anyway. Looks like there will be only 4 Civs left on our continent soon…

Hit enter and cross fingers.
IBT: Caesar wants us to leave.

Good news: Kazan is still ours. Bad news: Celts capture the last Mongol city one turn before we could (sorry, but there were absolutely no troops available before; it had 2 Spears, + the Monk that attacked our lone Cavalier).
Siam wants to extent peace, sure.

Copernicus’ finishes in Jenne (Market)
Diffa (Carrack) -> Forge
Ulaanbatar (Counselor) -> Forge
Tahoua (Mill) -> Granary
Mopti (Wiseman) -> Wind Mill
Tessalit (Granary) -> Guild Hall
Sokoto (Granary) -> Wind Mill

I plant some trees in front of our Palace. and get us a nice cupola roof (not that it's raining often here...)

Egypt changes to Leo’s.


Turn 5: 900AD

Polynesian Government was forced to exile into the dark. Move our Carrack West to watch for Persian ships.
Ouch, Rome deserves the prize for the worst starting location, they really need the Furs; the Germans at least the can irrigate their hills to reach Berlin in some hundred years.

Finally can lower Tax to 20%, and it should stay there to keep everyone in WLTK mood.
Incas and Celts know Gunpowder

Workers work, MPs move slowly towards our new province.

IBT:
Gunpowder comes in.

Maroi (Horse Archer) -> Wiseman (btw, there’s Saltpeter next to it)
Segou (Forge) -> Granary (it makes 12/13spt at size 1 from a single mined mountain)


Turn 6: 910AD

Mine finishes next to Almarikh, FP in 5 pulling 23/29spt…WLTKDs rule.
Rush some culture in Oshogbo; this is crucial, since we need to cover as many of the mountains there to be able to reach the Celtic core sooner or later.
:goodjob: whoever founded the city there.
We have another already connected Saltpeter at Timbuktu; too bad, this time Brennus was more lucky. Incas have, but not Siam. Sell Gunpowder to them :D for WM, 50g and 11gpt.
Decide to do something questionable – I rush a Caravel in a Mongol city, and will join a Slave into another to rush a Pioneer – maybe we can beat the Incas for the former location of Bear Butte, netting us 3 Tea; if not, we still can settle the big island to the NE, there are Horses, which seem to be quite rare.

IBT:
Timbuktu (Market) -> Bank prebuild
Tahoua (Granary) -> Bazaar
Kano (Pike) -> Pike
Oshogbo (Academy) -> Harbor

Another Palace expansion.


Turn 7: 920AD

Brennus must have gotten Horses from the Incas.
Workers, MPs move.

IBT:
Banking -> Scientific Method
Jenne (Market) -> Bank
Tessaoua (Guild Hall) -> Hhorse (we should get some more of them before we they obsolete, they’re extremely useful for a long time as fast defenders; do not upgrade them)
Maraoi (Wiseman) -> Hhorse
Dosso (Forge) -> Granary


Turn 8: 930AD

Business as usual.
Rush the Pioneer in Dalangzagad…

IBT:
Dogo (Granary) -> CTF
Dala… (Pioneer) -> Academy


Turn 9: 940AD

Our expedition to the ‘Land of the Teapots’ starts.

IBT:
We learn Scientific Method from Egypt and Tibet :smoke: my fault, I forgot to check the other continent last turn, since they were a few Techs behind usually.

Diffa (Forge) -> Wind Mill
Tesaoua (Hhorse) -> Hhorse
Mopti (Wind Mill) -> Granary
Segou (Granary) -> CTF
Maidiguri (Forge) -> Harbor


Turn 10: 950AD

Strategy costs only 3 turns now (was 4 when I started Sci Method), so our neighbors should research it. I suggest to turn off SCI completely, our GA and the Glib will end soon, better save some money.

Oh well, I thought I would :hammer: , but it turned out that I built Granaries everywhere and gave luxuries to our people; at least, they also loved me and got us a nice home...


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/950.jpg



Enjoy the FP still in our GA! (http://http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_950AD.zip)

Good work, Doc. I think building us up before the next war is a good call. I think war with the Celts is definitely the next step. Perhaps not immediately, but soonish I would say.

I had forgotten the 30 turn GA would mean that it would last past your turn. We are looking pretty good here.

Well Played Doc.

Ted hasn't been on the boards for a while, so in his absence...

Deatvert you are UP. Since you haven't posted here in a while I suggest Space take the save tomorrow night (Friday 13th) if Deatvert doesn't post before then.

I'm here sorry about dissapearing I had some isssues I needed to deal with, but I'm back now so I got it

Hi Ted, if you see this, check your PM

You think Celts should be next? I don't...unless they attack us, of course.

See it that way: If they get annoying, we can hit their core immediatedly anyway. They'll always sell us their Cotton. Having them around will prevent the Incas from attacking us. Let them develop their lands, and strike them later.

Let's keep sufficient forces at home (2MP for each city anyway, plus 5 -10 fast units), and overrun the - Romans!


They are still ancient, they didn't connect their Iron, they have Furs, and they control most of the Tundra in this world - and since we don't have much Desert, I want that land to be sure to have Oil. And having a foothold on the other continent is always good -especially now, as long as they cannot reach us.

Rome should be no big deal for our HHorses and the move 3 Cuirassiers we'll soon have :evil:

Can we reach the other continent safely yet? I would need to look up the techs....

The reason I would go for the celts first is to get a bigger cushion around our core. It gives us a chance to muster and defend the core if the Celts launch a suprise attack against us. I would rather the suprise attack take out more corrupt cities rather than Timbuktu for example. Also if they were smaller it wouldmake their eventual attack much weaker. I was not thinking of an "elimination" war so we wouldn't necessarily be next to the Incas.

On the other hand, your point of a war against Rome is well taken. With more than one palace left to be built, we can set up a base on the other continent that is actually productive. We can also war much sooner (the celts would require build up of our forces).

So my opinion is that I am definitely undecided :D
I would base my decision on a guestimate on how bad a Celtic war would be to our economy and when it would happen.

I am leaning toward Rome as the better option if we can cross the sea already. The Celts had a LOT of fast units when we last saw them.

[Edit: We need 4 more techs past clockwork before we can attack the Romans, so maybe 25 turns if we went straight for Magnetism]

The Celts are rather strong at the moment; the cannot really hurt us, but their fast units (and they'll get Cuirassiers around the same time) will be a pain. Also, the ATAR Spies in the mountain range are hard to deal with.
We definetely haved missed the opportunity to strike them without risk - not by mistake, just because we had to deal with the Mongols first. However, they're no match on the long run.

But: Are you sure we cannot reach the Romans right now? We have the Lighthouse AND the Voyage of discovery, so Sea tiles and smaller bodies of Ocean are no problem.


(btw, we should head to Magnetism anyway, the East India Company is one of the greatest wonder available, and we need to get Smith's too, so the upper path is preferable.)

The boat I used to cross the gap definitely couldn't make it safely as it took 2 movement points to move through eac ocean square. If we have a one that takes only 1 move for ocean, then it is not completely known. It might be possible, but my guess is that it would need 5-6 or so move to make it.

Deatvert? You played this yet? It has been 3-4 days.

If Deatvert hasn't checked in by midnight (GMT) then we'll skip to Space.


Ted

OK,

Space is up!


Ted

First of all: THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02_1050AD.zip)

pre-turn
Check the game, we look good. We look to be ready to wipe Polynesia of the map.
Check diplo. Oh that's nice, Egypt will pay a truckload for our WM. :D 152g + 9gpt to be exact. What's the catch, though? :hmm: I make the deal anyway. And trade it around before they will.
Hmm, we don't have contact with Germany yet. Not that they'll have much, they don't look too happy in that corner.

IT
Nguigmi Bazaar -> Caravel
Almarikh FP -> Academy
Tahoua Bazaar -> Guild Hall
Sokoto Wind Mill -> Philosopher's school

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-FP.JPG

960AD - turn 1
I guess the janissaries are on their way to replace the elite HH, so continue that move.
Land the Pike and Horseman on the mountain near the Polynesian capital on the island. The ship continues and discovers that the island is bigger than it seemed.
Diplo check finds the Incans have researched a tech we already knew. We're only up Banking now.

IT
Jenne Bank -> Philosopher's school
Karakorum Forge -> HH
Timbuktu Bank -> Town clock
Ta-tu Academy -> Forge
Zinder Forge -> Harbor
Tessaoua HH -> HH
Our poeple want to build the Forbidden Gardens.
Dosso Granary -> Pike
Mopti Granary -> HH

970AD - turn 2
The Polynesian island is certainly bigger, so I decide not to attack but settle and block.
I put the slider on 10% science, strategy now in 15, for +485gpt.

IT
The sioux and Inca make peace.
Our golden age ends.
Almarikh Academy -> Bazaar
Ulaanbaatar Forge -> Rax
Kano Pike -> Bombard

980AD - turn 3
Nothing much to tell really, money and research are not suffering too much from the end of our GA.

IT
Jenne Philo school -> Town clock
Maraoi HH -> HH
Oshogbo Harbor -> Library (it needs some culture)

990AD - turn 4
The Incans and the Celts know perspective...

IT
Perspective comes in.
Nguigmi Caravel -> Caravel
Tessaoua HH -> HH
Choybalsan Harbor -> Worker
Maiduguri Harbor -> Naval base
We lose our Tobacco???!

1000AD - turn 5
I don't know what happened with the tobacco. We can't buy it, and no AI borders have expanded as far as I can see?
Maraoi is going to lose a pop.

IT
Timbuktu Town clock -> HH
Tessalit Guild Hall -> Bazaar
Segou Coastal trade center -> academy

1010AD - turn 6
Dapaong founded, starts harbor.
The Inca are winning it from Siam.

IT
Polynesia and Siam sign peace.
Jenne Town Clock -> Sistines (possibly a pre-build)
Zinder Harbor -> Coastal Trade
Ulaanbatar Rax -> HH
Mopti HH -> HH
Sokoto Philo School -> Naval Base

1020AD - turn 7
Rushed a worker in Dapaong and switched back to Harbor, taking 10 turns off.
We can trade sugar to the Celts. I want to keep options open for the moment (they'd give 14gpt)
Switch Dalandzadgad to worker, we still lack 'm. I usually build them in totally corrupt cities, which we do not have ATM, strange experience. :lol:
Hawk the WM around for decent money.

IT
Tibet wants our ship out of it's waters...
Siam and Sioux sign peace.
Karakorum HH -> worker
Timbuktu HH -> Temple
Tesaoua HH -> HH
Almarikh Bazaar -> Rax
Dosso Pike -> Pike
Darhan Forge -> Rax
Dalandzadagd Worker -> Worker

1030AD - turn 8
Sell Bridge Building to Tibet for 36gpt and 153g and to Egypt for 10gpt and 160g. The others on that continent have nothing to offer.

IT
Nguigmi Caravel -> Caravel
Hovd Academy -> Worker

1040AD - turn 9
Incas and Celts know Strategy.
Two shiploads of HH are ready to sail to Rome, if that's still the plan. I'm also building up our forces near the Nothern Celtish cities. I'll leave it up to the next player to select the next target.

IT
Strategy comes in, I "start" Army tactics.
Karakorum Worker -> HH
Timbuktu Temple -> Cavalier
Diffa Windmill -> Pike
Kazan Forge -> Rax
Almarikh Rax -> Pike
Tahoua Guild Hall -> Market
Choybalsan Worker -> Worker
Egypt starts Sistines.

1050AD - turn 10
Perspective is now known on the other continent, we might want to sell it to Persia too.
I think Education is near, that's why I've built knowledge improvements. I think we can research pretty good on our own. We still have monopoly on Banking.

I locked the Polynesians on their island. There's a Heavy Horseman in our town that can kill any settler pair trying sneak past.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-Polynesian-cage.JPG

Ahem...

Decide to do something questionable – I rush a Caravel in a Mongol city, and will join a Slave into another to rush a Pioneer – maybe we can beat the Incas for the former location of Bear Butte, netting us 3 Tea; if not, we still can settle the big island to the NE, there are Horses, which seem to be quite rare.


Honestly, I spent quite a lot of money for that, and I fail to see any benefit from wasting that Settler on a useless island. And we should not kill the Polynesians anyway, they are the last Civ that causes us War Happiness. If I had planned to take them out, be asssured I would have boarded 3HH, not a colonization team.

Next is: Why do you build Libraries for Culture? Academies are required for Universities, and Coastal Trade Centers bring money.

Sorry if that sounds too rude, but I don't think I expect too much when I remind you to read at last the most recent log.

I am truly sorry Doc. You are right I should have. The only thing I can say in my defence that I'm pressed for time this week and I didn't want to hold up the game any longer. As you know I played the turn that deatvert said he would, so your remark got snowed under. But it's no excuse I know, but what's done is done. I wasn't planning on killing the Poly's just confining them.
I have spent a lot of time reading the 'pedia since I am a complete DyP newb, but there'll always gonna be some questionable moves.

One suggetion Doc,

One thing you can do is to include end notes that specifically mention plans like what to do with the settler. Unfortunately, it is easy for a reader to miss points like this when reading the log as it is mixed in with the relatively unimportant items such as which town builds what.

Basically the end notes should include all your recommendations and plans you intitiated in your turns that you would like to see follow-through on. It has been my experience that doing so makes it much more likely for these plans to reach fruition.

Got it

But I won't be playing until tomorrow.



Ted

Hi Guys & Gals,

I've spent a couple of hours looking at the game and I'm not sure what to do for the best. I could just keep my head down and plod along but I don't think that's a good way to play the game :)

My main concern is that the Inca have grown so powerful. My initial reaction is to trim them down now. As our desired victory is Spaceship (with Diplo as backup) we'll need to secure our continent sooner rather than later.

We can't try the obvious ploy of roping the civs on the other continent into a war with the Inca as we can't trade contacts until we reach Electricity - half an age away. That leaves only the Celts and Siam as possible allies if we move against Inca now.

At the same time we should be slowing the other continent's tech pace by instigating war between Egypt, Persia & Tibet.

Obviously my thinking is based on "normal" Civ play. The big question is does the same hold true for DyP?

I'll rotate this game to back of my queue to allow some time for comments from the team.

Any thoughts on our research path after Absolutism are also welcome. I tentatively decided that if we went to war then we should pursue the bottom branch through to Miltary Tradition - trading for the upper branches.


Ted

Docs idea of taking out Rome also has merit. One difference between Dyp and Normal is the number of centers we can have. We can have the palace and FP on our continent while estalishing yet another center on the other one.

This has to wait until we can reach Rome which is "not yet". We need magnetism for this.

Otherwise, I think your thinking is sound. I don't find that Dyp plays that differently from normal play. We can eventually set up yet another center in Incan lands if we so desire, but we only get one palace per age, so that is industrial (If we want the Roman one first). (So FP in Ancient, Summer in Med Ages, Winter in Industrial, (none in modern))

The celts had a decent number of units. We could go after Incas with the Celts help. That way they take the brunt of the assault while we take the cities.

Without having a possibility to check the game it's hard to provide an informed comment -actually, I cannot think of any optional plan...
In any case, I would favour securing our home continent first: even if Rome is an easier target, a third productive core in another continent may not be too useful for a later war with the Inca, especially if they really grow strong.

My current favorite idea is to ally with the Celts vs the Inca if we can. I don't think we can attack Rome yet and Karasu's point is well taken, so I would do this war first.

Space, I apologize fro sounding rude. The Libraries are a minor issue, and the Settler destination is something that was hard to see, especially since you picked the game instead of Deatvert.

Rome: The main reason why I want to go there is that it's not very likely we have Oil otherwise. We also could need some more Luxuries, and a foothold could be wise. But apart from that, I agree with helping the Celts against the Incas right now.

No problem, Doc. I know how it feels when your plans are ignored, esp. if there's no motivation.

I agree that the Incans are getting too big. They are winning too much battles, so we should be wary about them taking too many Celtish cities, that could end up making them stronger.

Since space explored more we can now answer the question on whether we can reach the Romans without risk yet. The answer is "No". Our Caravels require 2 movement points in Ocean, and there is no crossing of 3 or less ocean squares.

Even if we could, I still think we can wait on the Romans anyway.

I think I would change Sokoto's build. It is so short on shields, that I think it better if we continuously build commerce improvments, rather than making it a ship building town. It has very low corruption and so can generate a lot of gold that we can multiply with the right improvements.

Also we might want our capitol to continue to grow. We can do this with MMing.

I know the capital can grow, but I thought as long as we're going for Sistines we might as well try to be first. It can grow afterwards again, it wont lose a pop.

TJ02-1050AD

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:
Wow! Things have changed so much since I last played. How did the Incas get so big?

First things first...
Embassy with Persia (59gp)
Persepolis: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Persepolis-s.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Persepolis.jpg)
Persepolis pop 8 (3h, 1c, 3u, 1e) - 4spt, +2fpt, 24gpt - building Heroic Epic (16 turns)

Embassy with Egypt (82gp)
Thebes: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Thebes-s.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Thebes.jpg)
Thebes pop 9 (4h, 4c, 1u) - 24spt (after waste), +1fpt, 86gpt (after corruption) - Building Leonardo's (17 turns)

Embassy with Tibet (69gp)
Lhasa: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Lhasa-s.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Lhasa.jpg)
Lhasa pop 8 (5h, 1c, 2u) - 24spt, +3fpt, 41gpt (after corruption) - building Leonardo's (18 turns)

Embassy with Rome (42gp)
Rome: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Rome-s.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1050AD-Rome.jpg)
Rome pop 5 (2h, 2c, 1u) - 7spt, +3fpt, 26gpt (after corruption) - building Longship (6 turns)

Celts won't ally against Inca - 5000gp & 300gpt wasn't enough. This may change once we declare but first I want to increase our troop support/production capability so probably declaration will defer to next player.

Almarikh (FP) switches to Granary and works unmined hill (this turn only, to prevent growth & Granary in 2 turns)
Karakorum switches to Granary, works 2 roaded Forests and stops working the Wheat (for 2 turns only to get Granary then Growth)
Timbuktu switches to the Oracle (6 turns, 2 free advances? Got to be worth it!)
Diffa switches to Academy
Kazan switches to Harbour
Dosso switches to Toll House
Darhan switches to Granary (followed by Harbour)
Mopti switches to Guild Hall
Sokoto switches to Bazaar
Segou switches to Toll House
Maiduguri switches to Toll House (follow with CTC)
Oshogbo switches to Toll House (follow with CTC)
Nguigmi switches to Academy (follow with Market)

Hawk WM for 36gp
Persia only has 42gp to offer for Perspecive so I pass

Press button...
Tessaoua HH - Toll House
Maraoi HH - Toll House
Tessalit Bazaar - Market
Tibet start Sistine

More follows...


Ted

1 - 1060AD
Worker tasks
Naval exploration
Lux 10%
Hawk WM for 35gp
Almirkh works irrigated Grassland for Growth in 2 & Granary in 1

IBT
Celts want MA vs the Sioux & RoP - I decline, swapping TM instead
Celts & Inca sign MA vs Sioux - Damn! I should have seen that coming
Timbuktu Cavalier - Academy
Ta-tu Forge - Granary
Nguigmi Academy - Market
Tessaoua Toll House - Market
Almarikh Granary - Guild Hall
Tabriz Academy - Harbour
Ulaan HH - Bazaar
Dosso TOll House - BAzaar
Kano Bombard - Toll House (don't know what else to build here as it's stuck at pop 2)

2 - 1070AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Hawk WM for 22gp

IBT
Timbuktu Academy??? - The Oracle (must have mis-clicked :()
Dalandzadgad Worker - Harbour

3 - 1080AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Hawm WM for 14gp

IBT
Cotton to Celts for Dyes deal expires (straight swap) - up the deal to Cotton + 10gpt for Dyes & Sugar
Karakorum Granary - Worker
Diffa Academy - Bazaar
Kazan Harbour - CTC
Hovd Worker - Worker
Dogondoutchi CTC - Worker
Darhan Granary - Toll House

4 - 1090AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Hawk WM for 19gp

IBT
Polynesia & Inca sign Peace Treaty
Karakorum Worker - Bazaar
Maraoi Toll House - Academy
Maiduguri Toll House - CTC

5 - 1100AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Hawk WM for 16gpt
Tibet & Egypt have Education :eek:
With Education due at end of turn it's time to ramp up research
Research 50% (Army Tactics in 2 @ +51gpt, 7633gp in the bank)

IBT
Siam & Polynesia sign embargo against us
Great Lib gives Education and goes obsolete
Zinder CTC - Toll House
Djado Forge - Toll House

6 - 1110AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Hawk WM for 26gp

IBT
Polynesia wants Peace Treaty - "Bugger off!" I say
Ta-tu Granary - Court
Tahoua Market - Forge
Disease strikes Dogondoutchi
Dogondoutchi Worker - Toll House
Kano Toll House - Academy

7 - 1120AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Research 40% (2 turns @ +144gpt, 7749gp in the bank)
Contact Germany (annoyed) - they are down Mono, Seafaring & Stirrup - 9 cities (inc)
Sell TM to Germany for WM + 9gp
Hawk WM for 17gp

IBT
Disease strikes Dogondoutchi
Oshogbo Toll House - Forge
Dapaong Harbour - Barracks

8 - 1130AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Research 30% (Army Tactics 1 turn)
Hawk WM for 37gp

IBT
Discover Army Tactics - Phyics (en-route to Magnetism for East India Company wonder)
Timbuktu Oracle - University
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1130AD-Oracle.jpg
Oracle gives us Physics & Magnetism
Research Matchlock
Maraoi Academy - Market
Ulaan Bazaar - Market
Tahoua Forge - University
Hovd Worker - Harbour
Dosso Bazaar - Market
Mopti Guild Hall - East India Company
Tessalit Market - Academy

9 - 1140AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Jenne switches to Leonardo's and slows production as Matchlock is due in 4
Mopti switches to Market (rush next turn then back to East India)
We can now trade with Egypt & Persia
Our Rep seems to be tarnished - Neither Egypt nor Persia will accept gpt
Buy Olive Oil & WM from Persia for Sugar + 141gp (cheaper than lux tax)
Buy Silks + WM from Egypt for Sugar + 201gp
Whoops! I seem to have traded away our last Sugar - not sure how I managed that???
Hawk WM for 49gp
Re-examine Mopti and short rush Worker (100gp) followed by Town Clock (550gp) leaving 3 turns to Market

IBT
Tessoua Market - Academy
Almirkh Guild Hall - Market
Darhan Toll House - Bazaar
Choybalsan Worker - Wiseman
Sokoto Bazaar - Toll House
Djado Toll House - Bazaar

10 - 1150AD
Naval exploration
Worker tasks
Research 60% (3 turns @ -28gpt, 7132gp in the bank)
We can trade with the Inca (but we don't want to do that, do we? :))

Notes & save follow...


Ted

Our Core
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1150AD-Core.jpg

Notes
Well, not quite the turns I expected to be playing :D

I swapped Jenne to Leonardo's (2 free techs) but it will complete the same turn as we discover Matchlock so it's probably worth delaying production 1 more turn to be safe.

Mopti is our East India Trading site but it needs the Market first. I short rushed to 120 shields but the next player could rush to completion. It will be a slow build but I think we've got the tech lead to make it anyway.

I noticed that no-one had built the Oracle so I sneaked it into Timbuktu for Physics and Magnetism (to give us cross Ocean trading and access to East India Company).

I was originally going to have one round of infrastructure then switch to Military builds but with techs popping up left, right and centre plus the Celts and Incans allying against the Sioux I decided to carry on with infrastructure.

The Sioux are down to 1 city and should be gone real soon.

I looked at the possibilities of starting a war on the other continent but couldn't find a lever large enough. Perhaps the next player will fare better.

There are too many choices for our free techs from Leonardo's but I favour Metallurgy followed by Leadership to get Cannons & Mil Academy. This would allow us to build an army and use it to trigger the possibility of a Heroic Epic build as normal.

I don't quite understand how I managed to trade away our last Sugar. I was intending to use the two incoming lux to reduce lux tax but with trading away Sugar that didn't work :)

I forgot to build an Embassy with Germany. Not vital but it might help.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/TJ02-1150AD.zip) and Karasu is up!


Ted

Stop the Oracle! Immediatedly! ;)

Of course we'll get it, and it'll give us 2 cheap techs we could research in 5 turns, or even worse - you have to pick Education...

The Oracle is best used in the early industrieal age, when techs are starting to get really expensive; since it needs a Shire in the city, it's highly unlikely the AI will ever start it - if they have Incense, they never build Shrines...


There was some discussion about what to research next - I suggest the upper tree, there are two wonders we want - East India Company, and Smith's. The later is about the most useful wonder in DyP, just have a look at the number of commercial improvements. And we don't need the Encyplodede, the only reason to build it is denial.

One note on Universities: They have horrible maintenance, only build them in cities where they are useful; but get at least 5 of them ASAP, that's the magic number for a nice Small Wonder.

EDIT: Cross post - too late.

Nice turns, and no big deal anyway considering this is Emperor and we have a comfortable Tech lead.

We already have the Heroic Epic - we need a victorious Army for the MilAc, not the other way around.

The Oracle is built. That's how we got to Magnetism. Don't you read what's written here? :)


Ted
Edited for missing smiley

I do - I wrote it when only your first part was up. Doesn't really matter, anyway.

From a gameplay point of view I would not let the Incan situation continue. The intricacies of which techs give what improvements is fascinating, and I'm unable to contribute much since I am a student of this mod. But from a pure long termist point of view I don't see how we can tolerate such a larger neighbour. Personally I would forgoe tech and infrastructure progression for a few turns to take the Incans down to a manageable size.

Going after Rome sounds reasonable if oil is an imminent requirement that we would otherwise not be able to trade for. But, rather than trying to eat the whole elephant, it would be better to do it a slice at a time and just consolidate our position on the home continent first.

Got it.
I'll give it a good look tonight.

From what I read, I'd be inclined to build up some military for the Inca, especially if extinction of the Sioux ends their MA with the Celts.

Techwise, I am not sure. I like cannons a lot, but I'd agree on trying to speed up towards the juicy wonders. I'll need to check the pedia anyway.

Ted,
You cannot get a military alliance against someone without one of you being at war. We have to declare war on the incans and then hope we can get the celts as allies. There is some risk as they may decide the don't want to ally and then ally with the Incans against us.

There is no way to find out before declaring war as far as I know.

Of course you could consider an MPP... I try to stay out of them usually, but it's a way to check their willingness to maybe MA later.

Personally I wouldn't tie myself in with ant sort of deal. I'd be happy just to get rid of the celts and about a third of the Incan lands. I don't want them to have several well spaced cores. Even taking out some of their erstwhile corrupted unimportant towns now will save us lots of effort in the future.

Anyway... too much building going on , I want to stir it up a little. After all we are testing the Mod here so that has to include unit balance and defence improvements and the like ;)

Originally posted by Greebley
Ted,
You cannot get a military alliance against someone without one of you being at war. We have to declare war on the incans and then hope we can get the celts as allies. There is some risk as they may decide the don't want to ally and then ally with the Incans against us.

There is no way to find out before declaring war as far as I know. I know, I just have this mental block that says I should be able start a war by entering an alliance. I try it every in every game I play :D


Ted