Here is Section C of the DG2 Code of Laws. This section deals with the Executive Branch. Please propose any modifications that will make for a better ruleset, as well as identify any passages that are no longer needed.

Please note that due to a recent poll, Governors will not become a part of the Executive Branch, and therefore shall not be included in this discussion.

C. The Executive Branch
1. Presidency
A. The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President.
B. The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President.
C. The Vice President assumes all powers and responsibilities of the
Presidency during the absence of the President.
D. May initiate Administrative, Legislative, Mobilization and Spot Council
Votes.
E. Casts a tie-breaking vote in Council Votes.
F. Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders.
G. Organizes worker activities.
H. Has veto power over Legislative Council Votes (votes on Standards).
I. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have
not been set by a department.
J. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have
not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader.
2. Council
A. The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 6
departments.
B. Each department will have a deputy. The departmental deputy assumes
all powers and responsibilities of the department during the absence of
the leader.
C. Each department may also have one or more chat representatives. The
chat representative assumes all powers and responsibilities of the
department during the absence of the leader and deputy in a turn chat
only.
D. Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities,
regardless of department.
1. Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
2. Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
3. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on
citizen feedback.
4. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their
own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low
participation, etc).
5. Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for
play in the game.
6. Call Legislative and Override Council Votes.
7. Vote in Council Votes of all types.
E. Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap
should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command.
F. Domestic Department
1. Organize decisions about settler placement.
2. Organize decisions about wonder building.
3. Organize the science/tax/luxury rate.
4. Organize departmental and provincial budgets.
5. Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor.
6. Call a Mobilization Council Vote to determine if the economy
should be mobilized.
7. Organize mapping of Provincial Borders.
G. Military Department
1. Organize decisions on troop movements.
2. Organize decisions on defensive plans.
3. Organize decisions on offensive plans.
4. Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations.
5. Call a Mobilization Council Vote to determine if the economy
should be mobilized.
6. When the economy is mobilized for war, becomes the defacto
President, superceding the President in the Chain of Command.
7. Can supercede a provincial build queue with military units or
improvements during time of invasion.
A. Invasion is the presence of offensive troops belonging
to a country we are at war with inside the borders of the
province to be superceded.
H. Foreign Affairs Department
1. Organize decisions on declarations of war.
2. Organize decisions on peace treaties.
3. Organize decisions on construction of embassies.
4. Organize decisions on rights of passage.
5. Organize decisions on trade embargoes.
6. Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts.
7. Organize decisions on placement of spies.
8. Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage.
I. Science Department
1. Organize tech research queue.
2. Organize tech trades.
3. Organize tech espionage.
J. Culture Department
1. Can supercede a provincial build queue with cultural
improvements when:
A. The city does not control its full 20 tile radius due to
lack of cultural expansion; or
B. The city does not control its full cultural radius due to
foreign cultural borders.
K. Trade Department
1. Organize trade deals.
2. Track the status and expiration of established deals.
3. Council Votes (Executive Branch)
A. A quorum requires the attendance of 2/3 of the Council.
B. Administrative Council Vote
1. Called by the President.
2. Affirmative result overrules an elected official’s instructions and
decisions for game play.
3. Simple majority of respondents required to override the official.
C. Legislative Council Vote
1. Called by any Department Leader or the President.
2. An affirmative result amends the Code of Standards.
A. The President can veto a legislative vote.
B. The Presidential veto can be overruled by an Override
Vote.
3. Simple majority of respondents required to pass the proposed
measure to amend the Code of Standards.
4. Judicial Review may occur at any time when requested by the
sponsor of the proposal or immediately upon the vote being
posted.
D. Override Council Vote
1. Called by any Department Leader.
2. An affirmative result overrules a presidential veto.
3. Unanimous support is required to override the veto.
E. Confirmation Council Vote
1. Called by the President.
2. An affirmative result confirms a Legislative, Judicial or
Provincial Governor position.
3. Simple majority of respondents required to confirm the official.
F. Mobilization Council Vote.
1. Called by the President, Military Leader or Domestic Leader.
2. An affirmative result mobilizes the economy.
3. Simple majority of respondents required to mobilize the
economy.
G. Spot Council Vote
1. An Administrative vote called and carried out in the turn chat.
2. Tallied immediately in the turn chat.
3. Simple majority of respondents required to pass the proposed
measure.
H. Process and Procedure
1. Poll is posted by the sponsoring official.
2. Proposal must be in Yes/No/Abstain format.
3. Forum polls will stay open until:
A. All votes have been cast, or;
B. A quorum has responded and further votes cannot
affect the outcome of the vote, or;
C. The posted poll closing time has been reached.
1. Minimum duration to run a poll is 48 hours.
4. Each Department Leader casts one vote.
5. In the event of a tie where a simple majority is required, the
President will cast the deciding vote.

DZ, I feel we shouldn't be working on this until we have Article D worked out in the Constitution, but until that time...

Please take out:
1.G
1.H

Please insert:
Governors into 1.J, unless Governors will still be considered Leaders.
4 instead of 6 in 2.A

F-G-H-I-J-K are all to be rewritten. We need to get the responsabilities of the Council Of Four decided.

C.1.C should be removed - all deputies should be handled the same.

-- Ravensfire

Assuming the current proposal for the Executive Branch goes, or at least without significant changes, I propose the following:


C. The Executive Branch
1. Presidency
A. The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President.
B. The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President.
C. Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders.
D. Organizes worker activities.
E. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have
not been set by a department.
F. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have
not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader.
2. Council
A. The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 4
departments.
B. Each department will have a deputy.
C. Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities,
regardless of department.
1. Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
2. Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
3. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on
citizen feedback.
4. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their
own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low
participation, etc).
5. Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for
play in the game.
D. Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap
should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command.
E. Ministry of Internal Affairs
1. Organize decisions about settler placement.
2. Organize decisions about wonder building.
3. Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor.
4. Organize mapping of Provincial Borders.
5. Evaluate Cultural needs of all cities.
F. Ministry of Defense
1. Organize decisions on troop movements.
2. Organize decisions on defensive plans.
3. Organize decisions on offensive plans.
4. Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations.
5. Track relative strength of foreign nations
G. Ministry of Foreign Affairs
1. Organize decisions on declarations of war.
2. Organize decisions on peace treaties.
3. Organize decisions on construction of embassies.
4. Organize decisions on rights of passage.
5. Organize decisions on trade embargoes.
6. Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts.
7. Organize decisions on placement of spies.
8. Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage.
9. Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
H. Ministry of Trade and Technology
1. Organize tech research queue.
2. Organize tech trades.
3. Organize tech espionage.
1. Organize trade deals.
2. Track the status and expiration of established deals.



-- Ravensfire

Some questions:

Does 2.E.5 include overall happieness?

Where are these defined?

Budget
Cash Rushing
Pop Rushing
Prebuilds

Originally posted by DaveShack
Some questions:

Does 2.E.5 include overall happieness?

Where are these defined?

Budget
Cash Rushing
Pop Rushing
Prebuilds


Overall happiness is a concern for just about everyone. If I had to put one person in charge of it, probably the Ministry of the Internal Affairs. However, many of the factors that impact it are in other areas - MIA should monitor it though.

Budget/Cash Rushing - I would like to see this in the Senate

Pop Rushing - Mayor and Governors

Prebuilds - For Wonders - MIA. For buildings/units - Mayors and Governors.

-- Ravensfire

To keep this discussion going (based on earlier proposal, with clarification as suggested)


C. The Executive Branch
1. Presidency
A. The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President.
B. The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President.
C. Organizes decisions on what to do with Great Leaders.
D. Organizes worker activities.
E. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for departments when these have
not been set by a department.
F. Organizes policy, plans and agendas for items and activities that have
not been defined as a task of an individual department or leader.
2. Council
A. The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of the 4
departments.
B. Each department will have a deputy.
C. Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities,
regardless of department.
1. Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
2. Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
3. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on
citizen feedback.
4. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their
own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low
participation, etc).
5. Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for
play in the game.
D. Some departmental powers and responsibilities overlap. If overlap
should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
precedence will be determined by rank in the Chain of Command.
E. Ministry of Internal Affairs
1. Organize decisions about settler placement.
2. Organize decisions about wonder building, including prebuilds.
3. Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor.
4. Organize mapping of Provincial Borders.
5. Evaluate Cultural needs of all cities.
6. Monitor overall happiness of COUNTRY_NAME.
7. Coordinate efforts of Governors on national projects.
F. Ministry of Defense
1. Organize decisions on troop movements.
2. Organize decisions on defensive plans.
3. Organize decisions on offensive plans.
4. Organize decisions on troop upgrades and terminations.
5. Track relative strength of foreign nations
G. Ministry of Foreign Affairs
1. Organize decisions on declarations of war.
2. Organize decisions on peace treaties.
3. Organize decisions on construction of embassies.
4. Organize decisions on rights of passage.
5. Organize decisions on trade embargoes.
6. Organize decisions on mutual protection pacts.
7. Organize decisions on placement of spies.
8. Organize decisions on intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage.
9. Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
H. Ministry of Trade and Technology
1. Organize tech research queue.
2. Organize tech trades.
3. Organize tech espionage.
1. Organize trade deals.
2. Track the status and expiration of established deals.


-- Ravensfire

You didn't address my requests, Ravenfire. Now pleas remove C.1.D. You changed its location, but did not remove it as requested.

Originally posted by Cyc
You didn't address my requests, Ravenfire. Now pleas remove C.1.D. You changed its location, but did not remove it as requested.

That's because it's where it needs be.

Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. The demands upon our work force are localized (city improvement), regionalized (provincial objectives) and national (global objectives). We need one person to manage all the requests and prioritize them.

We have run into the same problem in all three games - too many demands on too few workers. The problem is always perceived as "that darn President ignoring my orders!" when it's usually the lack of workers causing extreme priotitization of the workers.

Governors (and Mayors) should request worker actions, but the final call over the prioritization should not rest with them.

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
Budget/Cash Rushing - I would like to see this in the Senate
------------------------------
Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. -- Ravensfire I don't want cash rushing in the senate, it involves too much national interest and is too interlinked and diversive for a Senate of Governors.

It is linked with cultural stability and cultural warfare.
It is linked with Trade.
It is linked with foreign affairs (whether to cave in on demands, to gift or borrow civs something etc.).
It has to do with science.
It has to do with the slider.
It has to do with military power.
It has to do with exploration.
etc.

A Governor's/Senate's task is primarily regional, not national. A good Governor or Senator has to ignore the points I make for the benefit of the provinces, unless requested by the offices to save money. This blocks a national policy on money.

I do agree with your point on workers. Therefore I find it strange you don't consider money a national and scarce resource.

I like your idea of requests for worker actions by the Senate and I think the same should hold true for money; the Senate requests money for cashrushes and the Executive branch approves or disapproves and prioritises the approved ones.

Originally posted by ravensfire


That's because it's where it needs be.

Workers are a national resource, and nearly always a scarce resource. The demands upon our work force are localized (city improvement), regionalized (provincial objectives) and national (global objectives). We need one person to manage all the requests and prioritize them.

We have run into the same problem in all three games - too many demands on too few workers. The problem is always perceived as "that darn President ignoring my orders!" when it's usually the lack of workers causing extreme priotitization of the workers.

Governors (and Mayors) should request worker actions, but the final call over the prioritization should not rest with them.

-- Ravensfire

Well with the wording of CoL D.1.C.1 (the second .1) you're going to have problems with the DP assigning work to tiles in a different order than the Governpr wants, etc. You need to go back to the Priority lists, otherwise you will be ignoring the Governors requests.

I doubt anyone in power will budge on this point, that's one reason why I'm glad I'm not running for Governor.

Speaking of CoL Section D, you still haven't addressed my requests there either Ravensfire.

Originally posted by Cyc


Well with the wording of CoL D.1.C.1 (the second .1) you're going to have problems with the DP assigning work to tiles in a different order than the Governpr wants, etc. You need to go back to the Priority lists, otherwise you will be ignoring the Governors requests.

I doubt anyone in power will budge on this point, that's one reason why I'm glad I'm not running for Governor.

Speaking of CoL Section D, you still haven't addressed my requests there either Ravensfire.

Your point is accurate, and has happened in the past. This is the system used in DG2 and DG3. Towards the end of DG2 a slightly different system was created as a possible fix. It added a lot of complexity for minimal benefit.

We could create a hightly complex system balancing worker requests from Governors, production capacity and national goals that may, or may not, involve land within province boudnaries (ie the road to a conflict site), but I would NOT want to manage that, nor be the DP that has to interpret those results.

You probably ought to create a thread on worker management to cover this. Ask DZ to allow any decision made there specifically related to worker management to supercede previous decisions.

-- Ravensfire

CoL section D - some of us work for a living, ya know? ;)

I usually post when I have a build running and I'm waiting for the compiler to finish up.

I'll look into it next chance I get and reply. :D

-- Ravensfire

We could create a hightly complex system balancing worker requests from Governors, production capacity and national goals that may, or may not, involve land within province boudnaries (ie the road to a conflict site), but I would NOT want to manage that, nor be the DP that has to interpret those results.

You probably ought to create a thread on worker management to cover this. Ask DZ to allow any decision made there specifically related to worker management to supercede previous decisions.

-- Ravensfire

OH, heck no! I've already gone through months of pain and suffering :cry: trying to protect the Governor's rights from the Executive elite. And although I was able to peg the President with 3 PI's for abusing the system, the only legislation that came out of it was the complex system you mentioned. I'll let some of our next Governors worry about it.

I understand.

How about this - pass it as is. For the next few weeks, this won't be a major issue as we're a kinda small country!

Once the new term starts, we open a discussion on workers.

Acceptable?

-- Ravensfire

Sure, fine. Go for it.

I do know that another democracy game settled this dispute by creating an entire Department of Labor, sepcifically to control workers. I wouldn't go that far, but would advocate the creation of an office of Labor under the jurisdiction of either the President, Interior Ministry, or the Senate, an office specifically created to manage all the nation's workers.

But that's another thread.

Regarding worker actions.

There are four types of decisions relating to worker actions. I propose dividing it as follows:

[list=1]
Worker production (build queues = mayors, via governors)
National prioritization and regional allocation (internal affairs)
Individual tile improvements (mayors, via governors)
Specific jobs allocated to specific workers (president / DP)
[/list=1]

Exact wording is flexible depending on how this idea is received. :)

I was about to propose polling this with the stipulation that worker manangment be discussed immediately after the game starts.

Then I remembered Rik's comment above.

This ties in directly with the legislature thread, where the verbage for slider and cash rush votes is located at.

We need to decide where to put slider and budget control, and need to do that soon. So discuss please! :D

-- Ravensfire

As far as I'm aware (other than RM's comment above), the Science Rate Slider control and Bugetary concerns have unofficially assigned to the Senate for weeks now. RM's comment of three days ago is a big shift of forum momentum. I think it's a little late in the ruleset to start anew on these concepts. But, if that's what you want to do, we've still got a week before the game starts (maybe).

Traditionally, slider and budgets belonged to the Domestic Leader. Our first option, then, is to shift that power to the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Though, I thought that we were going to shift this power to the Senate, to actually give it something to do.

Of course, I remain perpetually lost.

Originally posted by Octavian X
Traditionally, slider and budgets belonged to the Domestic Leader. Our first option, then, is to shift that power to the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Though, I thought that we were going to shift this power to the Senate, to actually give it something to do.

Of course, I remain perpetually lost.

Octavian - that has been the thought and intent, and for exactly the reasons you specified. When I see an active citizen post a concern, I wait to see if anything else develops from this.

Thus far, only Rik has objected to placing the slider and budget in the Senate. Assuming that does not change soon - this will get polled as such.

And yes - I get lost quite frequently. Ask Cyc!

-- Ravensfire

I think Ravensfire's proposal is good (I seem to say that alot :) ). And I do not have a problem with moving responsibility for sliders and cash rushes to the Senate - this type of activity is what legislatures are traditionally responsible for.

On another note, isn't "organize decisions" a bit vague? Why not just state "is responsible for"? I know, you are going to say what about the will of the people? The people will be ignored if we give final authority to the leader. I don't think so because they still have to follow the will of the people according the constitution. So lets word this like the Leaders have some authority instead of being paper pushers who can only post polls.

Poll will probably go up late tonight.

C. The Executive Branch
1. Presidency
A. The Leader of the Executive Branch is the President.
B. The Deputy of the Presidency is the Vice President.
C. Is responsible for determining what to do with Great Leaders.
D. Is responsible for worker activities.
E. Is responsible for policies, plans and agendas for departments
when these have not been set by a department.
F. Is responsible for policies, plans and agendas for items and
activities that have not been defined as a task of an individual
department or leader.
2. Council
A. The Council of the Executive Branch consists of the Leaders of
the 4 departments.
B. Each department shall have a deputy.
C. Department Leaders share several powers and responsibilities,
regardless of department.
1. Post polls and discussions to determine citizen desires for
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
2. Cast a tie-breaking vote in the polls determining their
departmental policies, plans and agendas.
3. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas based on
citizen feedback.
4. Formulate departmental policies, plans and agendas of their
own in the absence of citizen feedback (forum outage, low
participation, etc).
5. Convey these policies, plans and agendas to the President for
play in the game.
D. Departmental powers and responsibilities may overlap. If overlap
should cause the creation of non-complementary plans, departmental
precedence shall be determined by rank in the Chain of Command.
E. Ministry of Internal Affairs
1. Is responsible for settler placement.
2. Is responsible for wonder building, including prebuilds.
3. Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor.
4. Is responsible for the mapping of Provincial Borders.
5. Evaluate Cultural needs of all cities.
6. Monitor overall happiness of COUNTRY_NAME.
7. Coordinate efforts of Governors on national projects.
F. Ministry of Defense
1. Is responsible for troop movements.
2. Is responsible for defensive plans.
3. Is responsible for offensive plans.
4. Is responsible for troop upgrades and terminations.
5. Track relative strength of foreign nations
G. Ministry of Foreign Affairs
1. Is responsible for declarations of war.
2. Is responsible for peace treaties.
3. Is responsible for construction of embassies.
4. Is responsible for rights of passage.
5. Is responsible for trade embargoes.
6. Is responsible for mutual protection pacts.
7. Is responsible for placement of spies.
8. Is responsible for intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage.
9. Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
H. Ministry of Trade and Technology
1. Is responsible for tech research queue.
2. Is responsible for tech trades.
3. Is responsible for tech espionage.
4. Is responsible for trade deals.
5. Is responsible for tracking the status and expiration of
established deals.


NOTE: Worker actions is a known area that needs further work and has been tabled. Discussion will commence early in Term 1.

Changelog:
* Replaced "Organize" and "Organize decision about" with stronger language "Is responsible for".

-- Ravensfire

This proposal looks good - lets poll it.

Poll has been posted here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73816).

-- Ravensfire

See what not controlling the budget and the sliders have let to...

My concern about the budget (and sliders) in the Senate instead of Internal affairs or the Precidency have proven themselves to be correct.

Sure the senate should have "something to do", but this term has shown that shouldn't be key-game-aspects which tend to fluctuate a lot within a few turns.

Budget, workers, sliders are a national thing.
Buildqueues, labor placement are a regional thing. The Governors should decide on these things. Cooperate to finetune the cities so they build the right things on the right times.

I'd even consider adding the workers to the senate, as they are more closely linked to improving the production/popgrowth/land-improvement etc. But not the slider and definetely not the budget.