View Full Version : I really don't get why the Wright Bros. overshadow the rest of flight.


Chauliodus
Dec 17, 2003, 04:33 AM
100 Years of manned, powered flight, nice, but why does it totally blot out the feats that people did before Kitty Hawk? Its like Charles Limburgh, everyone fawns over him, but he was the 92nd freaking person to cross the Atlantic! Why arn't the men of Seaplane Squadron One glorified for being the first?

I mean, you don't hear too many people celebrating the first lighter than air flight? Or Frenchman, Clement Aders manned, powered flight in 1890 that took his aircraft only a few inches off the ground Or the ACCUAL first powered flight by John Stringfellow in 1848 !

The First Powered Flight - 1848

When I ask people "Who invented the aeroplane?" they usually say "The Wright Brothers." In fact the world's first powered flight took place not in America in 1903, but at Chard in Somerset 55 years earlier, and the man who made it happen was John Stringfellow.

John Stringfellow was born in Attercliffe, Sheffield, on 6 December 1799. When he was a teenager his family moved to Nottingham, and he went into the lace industry. He became a Bobbin and Carriage Maker, and later, when the Luddites began to make trouble, moved south to work in one of the two lace mills in Chard. He developed amazing skill at making steam engines, and in about 1842 he teamed up with William Samuel Henson, who was interested in aeronautics, and had already taken out a patent for a plane. Henson had tremendous ambitions. He not only applied for a patent on a 'Locomotive Apparatus for Air, Land, and Water' but also tried to set up an airline! He made a model of the plane in the patent, and tried to fly it in London, but it was a complete flop - literally.

So Henson came back to Chard, and together they worked on a new plane with a 20-foot wingspan and a wonderful Stringfellow steam engine. But it took two years to build, and by 1845 Henson was losing his enthusiasm. He moved back to London, got married, emigrated to America, and patented a new safety razor.

Stringfellow carried on alone, and when the 20-footer was finished he got workmen to carry it up to Bala Down, located about 1/2 mile west of Chard, for testing. He was so upset by people making fun of his work that he did this secretly, at night, and tried the first flight under cover of darkness. But the silk fabric, wet with dew, drooped and became so heavy the machine could not fly. He tried by day, every day for seven weeks, and finally had to admit defeat.

Then, for the first time, Stringfellow designed his own aircraft from scratch. The wingspan was 10 feet. The spars were of wood and the fabric of silk. The steam engine and boiler, with paper-thin copper walls, was carried in the gondola below the fuselage. The total weight of the craft was probably about 9lbs. By the summer of 1848 she was ready to fly.

The two propellers were huge, with helical pitch, and rotated in opposite directions to give lateral stability. His aircraft had no vertical fin, and he knew it would tend to veer left or right at the slightest disturbance. That is why he flew it inside one of the lace mills, where the air was still.

The space was so narrow - about 17 feet between the wall and the central row of pillars - that he had little room for error; so he launched the aircraft by allowing it to run for ten yards down a wire. This ensured that the machine started flying in exactly the right direction, and at a reasonable speed.

According to his son Fred's eyewitness account, the first flight was a bit of a disaster. The aircraft rose sharply from the end of the wire, stalled, and dropped back on its tail, which broke. But a later flight was a spectacular success; the plane flew for more than 10 yards before punching a hole in the canvas screen at the end of the mill.

In January 1995 we tried to replicate that first powered flight. Model aircraft specialist Charlie Newman built a full-scale model of Stringfellow's aircraft, and we went back to the same mill to try it out. To find out what happened, watch 'Local Heroes' on BBC2 in October.

Xen
Dec 17, 2003, 04:43 AM
a mighty ten yard flight?

sorry, but if he ever flew a few hundred feet, then perhaps I would consider it a flight, but as it is, 10 yards is little- most things with wings and a a stron enough motor could go that far- and how do i know this? I am currentlly takeing a aeronautics, and practical enginering class a tmy school ;)

if the curvature of the wing was right (so as to apply bernullis principle, and Newtons third law would help out as well) the what ever it was should achieve lift- weather or not it powerd itself or glided though is up for debate, as i dont see how a 9 Lb (!?) aircraft could carry a man any distance

Plexus
Dec 17, 2003, 04:44 AM
If I understand your post correctly, Stringfellow did not fly in his plane. The Wright Brothers had the first manned flight.

SanPellegrino
Dec 17, 2003, 05:20 AM
it wasn't even the wright bros. but a german guy a few years ago, but he didn't had money like the bros, so he couldn't build a patent-worthy plane.

Chauliodus
Dec 17, 2003, 05:26 AM
The Wright Brothers had the first manned flight.

Manned powered flight, however its trendy to simply call it the first powered flight.

luiz
Dec 17, 2003, 05:26 AM
Nobody invented the plane!

When will people realise that it wasn't a single inventor(or two brothers) that developed it, but rather a large group of people, that improved gradually the flying machines until moder planes?

The Wright Brothers plane is not a complete airplane: it depended on very fast wind or a catapult to take off. The first plane that could take off by it's own was the 14-Bis, made by Santos Dumont(a brazilian ;) ) in 1907, in Paris. But I don't claim he invented the plane(in the official brazilian history he invented it, though).

Xen
Dec 17, 2003, 05:27 AM
that isnt correct- he was a direct insperation for the wright brothers, as they took his research and expanded upon it, but he didnt acheived manned powerd flight.

the main problem was he, like ALL the other attemptor at eraly manned avionics assumed that in flight, the plane would be inherentlly stable, and that is where they went wrong- plane are inherntlly unstable- very similer to a bicycle, which, as most of us know, the wright brothers were in the bicycle buissness- and they apporaoched flight with the same attitudes they had approaced bike making & repair with

Xen
Dec 17, 2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by luiz

The Wright Brothers plane is not a complete airplane: it depended on very fast wind or a catapult to take off. The first plane that could take off by it's own was the 14-Bis, made by Santos Dumont(a brazilian ;) ) in 1907, in Paris. But I don't claim he invented the plane(in the official brazilian history he invented it, though).

wrong, the wirght flyer two, built somwhere around 1905 IIRC, was afully built airplane, capable of self lift

Chauliodus
Dec 17, 2003, 05:29 AM
The Wright Brothers had the first manned flight.

Manned powered flight, however its trendy to simply call it the first powered flight.

sorry, but if he ever flew a few hundred feet, then perhaps I would consider it a flight, but as it is, 10 yards is little- most things with wings and a a stron enough motor could go that far

It was an unmanned model, not a full aircraft, and the feat of using a steam powered engine is amazing in itself.

But I don't claim he invented the plane(in the official brazilian history he invented it, though).

Hehe thats like the debate on who really invented the telephone, Bell, or a Germany that showed him his telephone prototype, that Bell then ripped off.

luiz
Dec 17, 2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Xen


wrong, the wirght flyer two, built somwhere around 1905 IIRC, was afully built airplane, capable of self lift

No it was not. It depended on over 40 kph winds.

Xen
Dec 17, 2003, 05:36 AM
no, it didnt

luiz
Dec 17, 2003, 05:41 AM
I don't want to spam, but yes it did.

The Wrights never announced a flight before 1908/1909, and that's really important. They could only fly when the weather was right, or when they used the catapult.
Santos Dumont, on the other hand, announced the day and hour of his flight, and he did it.

Now mark my words: The Wright brothers DID NOT make an airplane capable of taking off using only it's engine power.

Knight-Dragon
Dec 17, 2003, 05:51 AM
Moved to History...

Xen
Dec 17, 2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by luiz
I don't want to spam, but yes it did.

The Wrights never announced a flight before 1908/1909, and that's really important. They could only fly when the weather was right, or when they used the catapult.
Santos Dumont, on the other hand, announced the day and hour of his flight, and he did it.

Now mark my words: The Wright brothers DID NOT make an airplane capable of taking off using only it's engine power.

I tend to go by what I have researched, and what my teaher has lectured about.

that said, what dose any annoucement matter? the wrigts still made a self powerd flight well before 1908- as shown by the deiffernt models of airplanes built- all improvements upon the origional wrigt flyer which DID need either the catapult, or the right weather conditions to launch

Speedo
Dec 17, 2003, 09:21 AM
The Wrights had the first powered flight with full control in all 3 axis. THAT is their distinction.

ainwood
Dec 17, 2003, 12:51 PM
What about Richard Pearse? (http://www.destination.co.nz/temuka/pearse.htm)

He claimed that he was not the first to fly because he put a stricter definitition on 'flight' than the Wright brothers did!

Some more links:

Link 2 (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/Pearse/Pearse.html)
Link 3 (http://www.billzilla.org/pearce.htm)

Double Barrel
Dec 17, 2003, 02:12 PM
Perception is reality.

The majority (as in 99%) of educated people in the world perceive the Wright Bros. to have conducted the first manned powered flight.

Thus, the reality is that the Wright Bros. to have conducted the first manned powered flight.

Everything else is just bitterman revisionist history. some of you are just upset that they were AMERICAN. :D ;)

Smidlee
Dec 17, 2003, 04:43 PM
Americans knew we couldn't go WRONG with a name like "Wright Brothers":D

Sims2789
Dec 17, 2003, 06:54 PM
about the dude who got a few inches off the ground: to have the first flight, you actually have to fly, not just hover.

Sims2789
Dec 17, 2003, 06:55 PM
the guy in 1848 never actually flew, but he tried. that doesn't count.

Speedo
Dec 17, 2003, 07:12 PM
Once again, the Wright brothers did not make the first powered flight- they made the first fully controlled powered flight. An imporant diference, but we know how stupid most people are about such things.

Mrogreturns
Dec 17, 2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Double Barrel
Perception is reality.

The majority (as in 99%) of educated people in the world perceive the Wright Bros. to have conducted the first manned powered flight.

Thus, the reality is that the Wright Bros. to have conducted the first manned powered flight.

Everything else is just bitterman revisionist history. some of you are just upset that they were AMERICAN. :D ;)

By "educated people" I assume you mean people who learned that in school and \ or from popular books or TV ?

It's an interesting idea though- I'd guess that 99% of educated people believe that Sigmund Freud was a psychiatrist- doesn't alter the fact that he was a neurologist though.

Chauliodus
Dec 18, 2003, 07:46 AM
Everything else is just bitterman revisionist history. some of you are just upset that they were AMERICAN.

The pilots of the first crossing of thr Atlantic were Americian, why arn't they as famous as Limburgh or the Wright Bros?

Thus, the reality is that the Wright Bros. to have conducted the first manned powered flight.

Not just the first manned powered flight, but the first flight EVER! :P

HalfBadger
Dec 18, 2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Chauliodus



Hehe thats like the debate on who really invented the telephone, Bell, or a Germany that showed him his telephone prototype, that Bell then ripped off.

Or about Bill Finger (I think that's his name) actually creating Batman, but his family couldn't afford the lawyers that Bill Kane's could, so he won the court battle over the copyrights.

MattII
Jan 28, 2004, 04:08 AM
Alcock and Brown were not American, and were the first people to fly across the Atlantic, albeit, in a west to east direction.

IglooDude
Jan 28, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Mrogreturns


By "educated people" I assume you mean people who learned that in school and \ or from popular books or TV ?

It's an interesting idea though- I'd guess that 99% of educated people believe that Sigmund Freud was a psychiatrist- doesn't alter the fact that he was a neurologist though.


Here's a link:
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/freud_res.html

He was a neurologist for a while, and then went into psychotherapy. He's called the "Father of Psychoanalysis" - did he advance neurology in any historically significant way?

North King
Jan 28, 2004, 04:21 PM
Actually, IIRC, the first powered fully controlled flight was in 1898, by the Welsh carpenter Bill Frost. He made two horizontally spinning but I think slightly forward facing propellers, mounted on his aircraft. It flew several hundred feet, but unfortunately, a freak thunderstorm wrecked his plane, making him the first survivor of an aircrash. The townspeople ridiculed him right up until German zepplins flew over the town.

Perhaps it is not considered controlled because he crashed.

Ossric
Jan 28, 2004, 05:51 PM
Lindberg was more important as a milestone in aviation. His flight over the Atlantic triggered the whole commercialisation of aviation. But what the hell, if he didn't do it, someone else would have done it..