well, here we go...

California is the only state to rebel against the government alone(1848). I heard that in 1850 we declared independence, but withdrew our claim 3 months later after feeling that we had made our point, but that source is questionable.

The guy on the $10 bill is from Jamaca.

Nazi Germany originally oposed Japans invasion of China in 1931. The USA and Germany both sent military advisors to China. The US also sent air support(The Flying Tigers).

The Mughal Empire and the United States co-existed.

The Confederate Army wasn't segregated. Some 50,000 blacks fought for them, 13,000 in combat roles. By the end of the war, however, they had created all-black units.

The slang word "hooker," which means prostitute, was gotten from the US civil-war general Joseph T. Hooker. He hired prostitutes for his army to keep up troop morale. They started being called, "Hooker's girls" which was eventually shortened to "hooker." The name stuck.

The slang word "hooker," which means prostitute, was gotten from the US civil-war general Joseph T. Hooker. He hired prostitutes for his army to keep up troop morale. They started being called, "Hooker's girls" which was eventually shortened to "hooker." The name stuck.

Funny one who obsesses over pimps would mention that.;)\

Anyways: Here's an interesting fact:

French Fries were made in Belgium, but they were called "French Fries" cuz they looked like French-cut green beans.

The can opener was made after the can. The original cans weighed more than the contents of the can.

The Navy helped design the first tank.

The director of the US Patent Office in 1899 said that "Everything to be invented has been invented." Four years later, 2 bicycle shop owners flew the first plane and changed our world forever.

The first VHS player was built in the 1950's and was the size of a piano.

Hitler let some Jews stay in the Navy.

Stalin, an alterboy, banned Russian Orthodox.

Portugal once moved their capitol to Rio de Janero.

Central America used to be one country.

The only time Mexico put troops into foreign territory(unless you count the raids on the Republic of Texas) was against Japan. 1/6 of all Mexican airmen who fought died during WW2. this sounds like a lot, but Mexico sent only 31 pilots(5 of which died). They flew US-made P-47 Republic fighters and were intergrated into an American unit, yet had the Mexican flag on them. They were burried next to 6 cadets who died, ironicly, fighting US imperial invaders.

Hitler let some Jews stay in the Navy.

From what I remember, they discovered files after the war pertaining to senior officers in the army who had Jewish backgrounds and had been effectively "pardoned" for the "crime" by the state in order to continue their roles.

Originally posted by sims2789


The director of the US Patent Office in 1899 said that "Everything to be invented has been inventer. Four years later, 2 bicycle shop owners flew the first plane and changed our world forever.




I think his family moved to Australia and worked his great grand kids worked for Tandy, cos a bloke in Tandy said games would never need more than 640K Ram ... :)

Have a history teacher explain this if they can.....

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both wives lost a child while living in the White
House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.

Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Now it gets really weird.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in
1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in
1908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born
in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born
in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.

Now hang on to your seat

Lincoln was shot at the theater named "Ford."
Kennedy was shot in a car called "Lincoln" made by
"Ford."

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their
trials.

And here's the "kicker":

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe,
Maryland.
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn
Monroe.

Lincoln was shot in a theater and the assassin
ran to a warehouse.

Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and the assassin
ran to a theater.

Creepy, huh?

Originally posted by Pariah
Have a history teacher explain this if they can.....

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.


Creepy, huh?

Unbelievable. :eek:

It is better rendered when it is said that "Kennedy was in Marilyn Monroe". ;)

A pattern such as this could indicate a nefarious situation beyond normal understanding.

Originally posted by sims2789
Nazi Germany originally oposed Japans invasion of China in 1931. The USA and Germany both sent military advisors to China. The US also sent air support(The Flying Tigers).
Germany wasn't under control of the Nazi's in 1931. Hitler didn't become Chancellor until 1933.

The Zero Year Presidential curse:
EVERY PRESIDENT since 1840 that was elected in a year ending in "0" was either shot or died in office:

William Henry Harrison - elected 1840, died of pneumonia after 1 month in office.

Abraham Lincoln - elected 1860, shot dead in 1865, a few months into his second term.

James Garfield - elected 1880, shot July 2, 1881, died September 19th due to complications from his wounds.

William McKinley - elected 1900 to a second term. Shot dead in 1901.

Warren Harding - elected 1920, died of food poisoning 1923.

Franklin Roosevelt - elected 1940 to his third term (should have quit while he was ahead!) Died of a stroke in 1945 during his 4th term.

John F. Kennedy - elected 1960. Shot dead 1963.

Ronald Regan - elected in 1980. Shot while exiting his limo in 1981. Regan survived the asassination attempt. Did this break the curse?

George W. Bush - elected 2000. February 7th a former IRS agent was found just outside the White House with a handgun. Several shots were fired before Secret Service disabled the man. George Bush was indeed in the White House at the time. Does this count? Is the curse broken? Who knows. But it is creepy.

And sure other Presidents have had attempts on their lives, but the only successful asassinations were with presidents elected in zero years!

P.S. "Kennedy was in Marilyn Monroe." :lol: Hee hee.

Regarding the curse, I think it's called Tecumesheh's curse, and was supposedly placed for his vengence. Of course, it's kinda helpful that the first prez killed off was W.H.Harrison...

Personally, I believe the curse got broken. One more reason people love Reagan, I guess. ;)

Pariah, whilst your information is interesting, it is also not that unusual. I seem to recall an article on either snopes or urban legends which made a mockery of the idea that the two being linked was so unlikely as we all think.

Originally posted by Pirate
The Zero Year Presidential curse:
EVERY PRESIDENT since 1840 that was elected in a year ending in "0" was either shot or died in office
George W. Bush - elected 2000. February 7th a former IRS agent was found just outside the White House with a handgun. Several shots were fired before Secret Service disabled the man. George Bush was indeed in the White House at the time. Does this count? Is the curse broken? Who knows.

One thinks George W. Bush is the more deserving of a bullet than most Presidents. Let's hope the curse holds a little longer...

Originally posted by sims2789
The Navy helped design the first tank.
No "help" involved. The first tanks were designed, developed and built by the Royal Navy at the instigation of the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill.

BTW, consider the following definitions:

tank, n. 1. A vessel or cistern for holding liquids. 2. An armored fighting vehicle (AFV).

You might think that the two definitions had nothing to do with each other. But you'd be wrong.

One of the major problems with trench warfare in WWI was supplying drinking water to the trenches. Water is heavy (1 liter=1 kilogram/1 gallon=8 pounds) and every drop had to be carried to the trenches by horse or man. So when the British were developing AFVs, they put out a cover story that they were developing self-propelled water tanks. Everyone involved with AFVs was told to call them "tanks" and stick to the cover story. As it happens, the Germans heard the cover story and, since they had similar problems providing water to their front-line trenches, had no problem believing the story.

Since the name "tank" was so pervasive, AFVs have been called "tanks" ever since.

No "help" involved. The first tanks were designed, developed and built by the Royal Navy at the instigation of the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill.

And were orginally called "Land Battleships" :)


Hitler let some Jews stay in the Navy.

Not surprising, he let some 600,000 Jews and Half-Jews remain in the Army.

California is the only state to rebel against the government alone(1848). I heard that in 1850 we declared independence, but withdrew our claim 3 months later after feeling that we had made our point, but that source is questionable.

I wonder if thats connected to Emperor Norton I, self-declared Emperor or America(edit, nope, he "rose" to power in 1859). He lived in San Francisco, outlawed the Republic, fired Lincon and arrested Andrew Jackson, course noone outside of San Francisco took him seriously, except the rest of the world. He planned on getting married to Queen Victoria, Czar Alexander II sent his congratulations while the President of France tha such a marriage could be disastrous to world peace.

Originally posted by sims2789
The can opener was made after the can. The original cans weighed more than the contents of the can.
I've heard the orignal "can opener" was a revolver :D

the Californian Army, made up of pro-Mexican Californians, who fought against the USA after the Mexican-American War ended. When the Californians made their last stand, the USA had only 2 companys to fight them. the Californians had a larger army, although the numbers are unkown. the USA only lost 16 men. thus ending the so-called Californian-American War(although it was really between Mexican Nationalists and the US occupiers).

more immigrants used to go from the United States to Mexico than the other way around. but they got their revenge against the Gringo's!!!

Bowie(inventor of the Bowie knife. i forgot his first name) who fought for Texas during the Texas Revolution and died at the Alamo fighting Mexico, died a Mexican citizen.

Jim Bowie.

Austria-Hungary created the Austro-Hungarian Air Service before airplanes were invented.

Two countries who lost their independance during WW2 never regained it. They are Danzig, between Prussia on one side and Poland on two(plus water on one) and Tannu-Tuvva, which was between Mongolia and the USSR. The Soviets annexed it in 1944, and it remains in Russian hands to this day.

Originally posted by Stefan Haertel
Jim Bowie.

And I'm pretty sure it was his brother, Rezin, who invented (and sold) the knives. Jim just put them to use famously.

Danzig was never a country per se. It was an open city run by the league of nations.

And I'm pretty sure it was his brother, Rezin, who invented (and sold) the knives. Jim just put them to use famously.

Dunno, the name just burned into my memory through a song by Donovan (and I am absolutely sure, in contrary to my father, that his first name wasn't David!).

Originally posted by Pariah


One thinks George W. Bush is the more deserving of a bullet than most Presidents. Let's hope the curse holds a little longer...

If you live it the USA that comment will probably get you some attention from the FBI, Let me know if you have any visitors come to your door or if you hear a "clicking" on your phone line :lol:

No, I'm not an American. I'm just as free to criticize your head of state as I am to denouce Kim Il-Song.

The grand war of Russia and Berwick- upon-Tweed

Due to an archaic law in Britain, the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed had to be mentioned in proclamations (England, Scotland and Berwick Upon Tweed formally...).

One such proclamation was of war against Russia (the Crimean War). During the signing of peace however, Berwick-upon-Tweed was not mentioned, technically meaning it was still at war.

In 1966 somebody must have pointed this out, for a formal peace treaty was finally signed. Mayor Knox of Berwick-upon-Tweed asked the Soviet official to "tell the Russian people they can sleep peacefully in their beds."

heres an interesting little fact- the Current Royal house of England claims descent from the Norse God Odin

As did every Scandinavian royal. Odin clearly got about a bit.

If you follow the generations back, you can estimate that Odin was alive and knobbing around the 2nd century AD. However the House of Windsor claims ancestry back even further down the Welsh line through Henry Tudor- to the Celtic hero-king Beli Mawr.

If you strictly follow the male line of descent back from Prince Charles, you end up with Egilmar I, Count of Oldenburg around 1100AD.

Originally posted by Wolfe Tone

Germany wasn't under control of the Nazi's in 1931. Hitler didn't become Chancellor until 1933.

Germany continued to oppose it when Hitler became Fuhrer. Eventually(I think in 1937), they withdrew their military advisors.

WWII never technically ended, since Japan and the Soviet Union never signed a peace treaty. I believe that Russia took all of the old USSR's treaty's, but if they didn't, the war would have ended on December 26, 1991, when Japan beat the USSR, as they ceased to exist after that date.

Austria declared independence from Austria-Hungary, and Russia declared independence from the Soviet Union.

All states in the United States that were once independent(California, Texas and Hawaii) use the same state flag that was once used as their old national flag.

The last Confederate general to surrender during the Civil War was a Native American.

Mexican troops crossed into the United States at least 23 times last year on accident.

In the USA, it is not banned by the constitution to enslave someone as a punishment for a crime.

Hawaii's flag has a union jack on it, even though Hawaii was never part of Britian. This is because the Queen of Hawai'i decided that Hawaii needed a national flag, so she combined the US, Britians and Frances flag.

Hawaii used to have the highest literacy rate of any country in the world.

The combined populations of New York City and Los Angeles(in modern times) is more than the entire Confederate States of America at any point in the Civil War.

There was a train chase during the Civil War. A Union train crossed into the South and sabotaged Confederate rail lines as it went. The Confederates started chasing it with a train of their own and eventually the Northern one was captured, but not before doing a heck of a lot of damage.

96% of trains were manufactured in the North on the onset of the Civil War.

I know the modern-day decendant of Robert E. Lee.

Only one person was ever born in Antartica. She was the daughter of some scientists.

Columbos a Venitian, helped to destroy the Venitian Rep.

Wilmer McLean was an American farmer whose home was located near Manassas Junction along the banks of Bull Run in Virginia. The first battle of the American Civil War, 1st Bull Run or 1st Manassas, was literally fought in his front yard. After the battle, he decided to find a new place for his family "where the war would never reach them." He bought a two-storey brick house in a small village of no strategic value in central Virgina called Appomatox.

When in early April 1865 General Robert E. Lee decided to surrender his forces, the negotiations were to be held in Appomatox. Lee sent an aide, Col. Charles Marshall, into the town to find a suitable space. There Marshall encountered McLean, who offered the use of his house. The war which began in McLean's front yard ended in McLean's front parlor.

Sims: Stand Watie, right?

Originally posted by Smellincoffee
Sims: Stand Watie, right?

think so. that name sound right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
in the Confederate States of America, it was illegal to import slaves from anywhere except the USA.

the word white is not mentioned anywhere in the Confederate constitution.

Originally posted by sims2789

The slang word "hooker," which means prostitute, was gotten from the US civil-war general Joseph T. Hooker. He hired prostitutes for his army to keep up troop morale. They started being called, "Hooker's girls" which was eventually shortened to "hooker." The name stuck.

The Union's General Burnside had a big pair of lamb chops growing on the side of his face. So distinctive were they that the word 'side burn' came from him.

Sir Robert Menzies (aka 'pig iron Bob) sold miilions of tonnes of metals to the Japanese prior to 1941 only to have it returned in the form of bombs, bullets etc when Australia went to war with Japan.

Hitler and Stalin were both choir boys. :D

Hitler and Stalin were both abused as childern. Once, as punishment for running away, Hitler was beaten by his father into a coma for several days. Stalin was beaten so much that he urinated blood.

Napoleon was born in Corsican.

Hitler was born in Austria-Hungary.

The guy on the $10 dollar bill was Jamacan.

Caligula was known to coat his food in gold, and drink melted pearls.

Evidence of Patatoes in Indonesia traded from South America across the Pacific has been found.



I watch food network too much......

George Washington was not the first President of the United States.

Adolf Hitler´s father was born as Alois Schicklhuber. Heil Schicklhuber. There was also inbreeding in his familiy. We know the result. He was also never German Presiden nor he won any free election.
Death penalty is abolished in Art. 102 of the German constitution (Grundgesetz GG). In the constitution of the ferderal state of Hessen however there is death penalty. Nevertheless because of Art. 31 GG there are no executions. Several attempts to delete this archaic Hessish Article failed.
One war lasted only 30 minutes. Does anyone know which war this was?
Cleopatra also drunk pearls.
The batlle of Tanga in German East Africa in 1914 was won beacause of bees. When the British invaded Tanga they made several big mistakes. They lost over 1000 men, the Germans only 68. However when the battle was nearly over the Germans did not have any ammo for their old rifles and few MGs. Because of the battle sound and the bullets which hit their nests the agressive African bees in the trees attacked the British which destroyed their peace. So the British had to retreat. One British soldier got an order because of heroic deeds during an air strike! Although the British press blamed the Germans to use war bees it was their own idea to attack. Patriotic bees.
Only once since the Spanish Armada drove through the Channel a big enemy fleet attempted to cross the Channel- and succeeded although the British were warned. In 1942 the German operation Cerberrus, where the BBs Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and the CA Prinz Eugen drove through the Channel with escort vessels. One British DD one MTB and dozens of British planes got lost (the British never admitted the loss of that ship, because it was risen and reused- but with much more money than a new DD would have cost). The German ships returned to their homeport safety. No ship was damaged becauseof British fire although both BBs were mined but not out of action.

That´s all for now.

Adler

Alder: Wasn't it something to do with a British was against Madagasgar or something? The other leader refused to bow to British gunboat diplomacy so they declared war, shelled his capital and 30 minutes later he surrendered ending the war.

I could be wrong admitedly, I'm going on something I recall reading in a Victor annual 15 years ago :D

Originally posted by pomsa
George Washington was not the first President of the United States.

Care to explain?

Originally posted by Pirate


Care to explain?

some people believe that the president of the Continental Congress was the first president of the USA. i don't know hhis name, though.

Because of the Articles of Confederation, George Washington was (according to himself) the ninth president.

edit: too late

Originally posted by privatehudson
Alder: Wasn't it something to do with a British was against Madagasgar or something? The other leader refused to bow to British gunboat diplomacy so they declared war, shelled his capital and 30 minutes later he surrendered ending the war.

I could be wrong admitedly, I'm going on something I recall reading in a Victor annual 15 years ago :D

I think this is the war you're talking about. Taken from Nicholas Hobbes Essential Militaria :

The shortest ever war: In 1896 a usurper seized the throne of Zanibar for precisely 45 minutes. A naval bombardment from three British warships destroyed the Sultan's palace and the usurper fled.

From the same book, and my nomination for stupidest war ever:

Postage Stamps When Bolivia issued a postage stamp featuring a map of its territory that included the disputed border region of Gran Chaco, Paraguay responded by issuing a larger stamp, including Chaco in its own map. The stamps became bigger and bigger until the two sides came to blows in 1932.

the Brittish & Belgian Royal families are actually German.

The Dutch East Indian Companie was founded by fled citizens of Antwerp (Belgium)

Originally posted by Kan' Sharuminar


From the same book, and my nomination for stupidest war ever:

Postage Stamps When Bolivia issued a postage stamp featuring a map of its territory that included the disputed border region of Gran Chaco, Paraguay responded by issuing a larger stamp, including Chaco in its own map. The stamps became bigger and bigger until the two sides came to blows in 1932.

My nomination for the stupidest war ever goes to a war fought in the 20th century between 2 central American countries. Both were vying for a position in the upcoming world cup and after the second match war broke out over the result. I'm a bit shady on exact details or even the names of the countries and I think the war didn't even last a week.

I think it was Nicaragua and Guatemal or Honduras. This was the soccer war.
In 1942 the British CL Trinidad was off Norway in a battle with German DDs. She launched a torpedo but this torpedo returned and hit the own ship! She was heavilied damaged and was brought to Murmansk where auxiliar repairs were made. Then she wanted to return to UK when German recce planes detected her. Due to heavy bombarments she was finally scuttled. Because of her own torpedo.
I heard about a battle in South America where cheese was fired out of the cannon because they had no ammo. It was in the 19th century and they won this battle. And no there were no Swiss ;).
In 1943 the USAAF made a shuttle bombing from UK to Russia. This was new for the Luftwaffe so they decided to follow the bombers with an own strategic bomber from Breslau. The He 177 Greif followed them and gave the coordinates of their Russian airfields to the German Command. The US commander was warned by the Russians to protect his planes instead of making them ready for take off, but he said the Germans lacked the possibility and courage to attack them. In this very night over 200 German bombers visited him and his men. Also the bomb stores were hit so they couldn´t rearm. At the next morning they flew back to England. This time no German fighter was seen, but the FlaK shot a few times. Only one plane got lost: the only recce plane with photos of German air bases and damages of the attack. At leat 117 US planes got lost, additional 3 Russian night fighters which were shot down by German bomber gunners.
In 1944 the US Navy wanted to make an invasion of a Japanese held island. But a Taiphoon came and Adm. Halsey gave order to drive through it. 3 US DD were lost, 7 carrier and one Iowa class BB heavily damaged. A storm could harm the US fleet much more than the Japanese navy, which was in their harbours.

Adler

Ossric: I understand where you're coming from with your comments on the British royal family, but given that our nearest fully german (ie born there) king or queen was I think either George II or III who died sometime around 200 years ago. Beyond that the nearest we then come is Albert, Victoria's husband. Whilst the name of the current family was once german the family is now firmly British in recent roots and nationality.

(unfortunately) :p

Indeed Queen Elizabeth could get a German passporte without big problems. Thaks to the German Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz from 1913. But if you say she was a German she wouldn´t be very amused... As well as many English. Sometimes Britain seems to be the same for Germany what Siberia is for Russia ;). This was a small joke from a Prussian Kraut so take no offence;)!
The British house Windsor changed the name from the German Sachsen- Coburg und Gotha in WW1. When Willhelm II. heard about that he loughed and asked whether they had to play now The funny wifes of Sachsen Coburg and Gotha instead of Windsor (don´t know the real name of the comedy by Shakespeare at this very moment. sorry). In the 90s the name of that comedy was also a right description of the Royal family ;).

Adler

You uhmm don't fancy taking the whole lot back by any chance do you? ;)

Robert E. Lee, general-in-chief of the Confederate armies that fought to maintain the institution of slavery in the U.S., freed his own slaves, having found that, "slavery is a moral and political evil in any society, a greater evil to the white man than the black."

Issac Newton's only recorded utterance while he was a member of Parliament was a request to open the window.

Twenty percent of U.S. Presidents were born in the same state. Virginia. Nearly forty percent were born in either Virginia or Ohio: eight in Virginia, seven in Ohio.

Charles Cornwallis was an MP for almost 12 years without ever speaking. He voted 3 times, none of those motions passed, and one called for the colonies to be given their independence. That was in 1772.

The V sign, with the palm facing inwards, may have its origins in war. It is said that on the eve of the battle of of Agincourt in 1415 the French threatened to chop off the 'bow fingers' (first and second fingers) of every English archer.
At dawn next day the victorous English extended the same two fingers in a mocking gesture.
During WW2 a V sign, with the palm facing outwards, was used by Winston Churchill as a victory symbol

S.O.S:
Contrary to popular notion, the letters S.O.S. do not stand for "Save Our Ship" or "Save Our Souls". They were selected to indicate a distress because, in Morse code, these letters and their combination create an unmistakable sound pattern.

Originally posted by gael
The V sign, with the palm facing inwards, may have its origins in war. It is said that on the eve of the battle of of Agincourt in 1415 the French threatened to chop off the 'bow fingers' (first and second fingers) of every English archer.
At dawn next day the victorous English extended the same two fingers in a mocking gesture.
During WW2 a V sign, with the palm facing outwards, was used by Winston Churchill as a victory symbol

I've heard this same story about the chopping off of fingers at Agincourt, but I heard it was the origins of the "finger" or flipping the bird, not the V sign. In fact, I think it was R. Lee Ermy who said it on Mail Call. *shrug*

Originally posted by rilnator


My nomination for the stupidest war ever goes to a war fought in the 20th century between 2 central American countries. Both were vying for a position in the upcoming world cup and after the second match war broke out over the result. I'm a bit shady on exact details or even the names of the countries and I think the war didn't even last a week.

Also from the same book I have ;) . From the heading 'Poor Reason's for War,' funnily enough

Anywho, it was the Soccer War between Honduras and El Salvador when the latter scored a last minute winning goal in a World Cup playoff. Don't know how long it lasted, but it left 3000 dead and 6000 wounded.

And they think English hooligism is bad :p

Originally posted by AngryGerbil


I've heard this same story about the chopping off of fingers at Agincourt, but I heard it was the origins of the "finger" or flipping the bird, not the V sign. In fact, I think it was R. Lee Ermy who said it on Mail Call. *shrug*

'Flipping the bird' goes all the way back to ancient Greece and Rome.

no, what happened is when the british archers won a battle, they yelled at the french soldiers.. they said "Pluck you!" and put the V fingers outwards.. and it turned into #@$ you, and to a middle finger.. dunno why.. also ****, was an abbreviation for manure when soil in Britains colony wasnt good ro something, they wrote S.H.I.T. on their ships to get through canals docks etc.

"Reno, Nevada is west of Los Angeles, California."

I don't understand this one. :confused:

Los Angeles is on the coast of the Pacific Ocean, while Reno is more than 150 miles inland. In general terms you would say that Los Angeles must be west of Reno. But the way the coastline curves toward the east as you move south puts the coast (and thus Los Angeles) at a more eastern longitude than Reno.

Related to that is if you cross the river due SOUTH from Detroit, Michigan you end up in Canada.

On 15 April 1912 the SS Titanic sunk on her maiden voyage and over 1,500 people died. Fourteen years earlier a novel was published by Morgan Robertson which seemed to foretell the disaster. The book described a ship the same size as the Titanic which crashes into an iceberg on its maiden voyage on a misty April night. The name of Robertson's fictional ship was the Titan.

Rather spooky thought, don't you think? :eek:

WWII ended on December 26, 1991, since Japan and the USSR never signed a formal peace treaty, although the USSR did annex the Kuril Islands and the southern half of Sakhalin Island. However, Japan "beat" the USSR when their government collapsed on that day after Christmas.

Strange-but-real organizations:

The Institute of Totally Useless Skills
The International Association of Sand Castle Builders
National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Mushrooms
Cookie Cutter Collectors Club
International Correspondence of Corkscrew Addicts

:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :lol:

2nd one isnt so weird.....

napoleon was not short, he had the average height of the time

I honestly think the National Association for Sand Builders isnt weird... I have seen some kickass Sand Castle's, and there are lots of competitions held aorund the world..

The descendants of the Mughals are'nt too far away from the Red Fort.... they live in a slum in Old Delhi.

Tipu Sultan, the native ruler of Mysore state, ( of which Bangalore was but a small town), was the first Indian ruler to use congreve rockets against the British and rather successfully in the Mysore Wars. Ironically, Bangalore now also houses India's aviation and Space Research industries.

The Dravidian culture can be traced back to the Mesopotamian cultures like Sumeria and Babylonian. An astounding similarity is the ritual marriage of the Mountain goddess and the Moon God, something which can be seen even today in South Indian temples.

Christianity arrived in India before it did in Britain and France.

Clive the founder of the British Empire in India and thus the rest of the world, was a lowly clerk when he came to India and was so depressed that he tried to commit suicide. The gun did'nt work when he put it to his head and pressed the trigger, but showed no signs of defect when normally tried.

Originally posted by allhailIndia

Christianity arrived in India before it did in Britain and France.



That's a highly contentious point. There is a school of thought that Joseph of Arimethea visited Britain and France, and that the first Christian church building was at Glastonbury in Somerset.

Given the trade routes, that's not a far-fetched theory. Certainly by the time of the Diocletian persecutions (c. 300AD) Britain produced a staggering 10,000 Christian martyrs.

Originally posted by pomsa
George Washington was not the first President of the United States.

More on this: In 1781 (I think) George Hanson was elected by the Congress under the articles of Confederation "President of the United States of America in Congress Assembled." Among other things, the Congress under his lead adopted the eagle as the National Seal.

He also, notably, recieved a written letter from George Washington, which congragulated "His Excellency, on aquirring the most important post in America."

The Argentine cruiser General Belgrano, sunk by a British submarine during the Falklands War in 1982 survived the Pearl Harbor attack in '41, being the USS Phoenix at that time.

Okay, not jaw-dropping, just curious...

In january 1794, a Dutch fleet, was captured by... French hussars.
Why is it funny? Because the fleet wasnot in port, but at sea.
Some said the hussars captured it after a charge, but it's probably legend. I think it was more peaceful.

Originally posted by sims2789
well, here we go...

California is the only state to rebel against the government alone(1848). I heard that in 1850 we declared independence, but withdrew our claim 3 months later after feeling that we had made our point, but that source is questionable.

The guy on the $10 bill is from Jamaca.

Nazi Germany originally oposed Japans invasion of China in 1931. The USA and Germany both sent military advisors to China. The US also sent air support(The Flying Tigers).

The Mughal Empire and the United States co-existed.

The Confederate Army wasn't segregated. Some 50,000 blacks fought for them, 13,000 in combat roles. By the end of the war, however, they had created all-black units.

The slang word "hooker," which means prostitute, was gotten from the US civil-war general Joseph T. Hooker. He hired prostitutes for his army to keep up troop morale. They started being called, "Hooker's girls" which was eventually shortened to "hooker." The name stuck.


texas!! it was allso its own nation for over 10 years!!

and nazi germany didnt exist in 1931

Yeah, but Texas didn't rebel against the US (Atleast until the civil war). They actually asked be annexed right after their independance, but they were declined entry for awhile because they didn't want another slave state.

VC: It may not have, but Hitler was definately on his way to supreme power by then. If I recall right from 10 years ago when I studied the subject in 1931 the nazi party were a big element (if not the biggest) in the reichstag.

The Nazis were in 1931 the bigges fraction and had a negative majority with the communists, so Hindenburg as president had to rule with emergency laws. However, Germany was still a democracy. And despite all difficulties Hitler could have been avoided even in 1933. Only 1 year later the NSDAP would have been bancrupted, because having not so much money. Then Hitler would have been only a small remark in history books as a crazy guy who wanted to become president. But the fate was another...

Adler

Originally posted by Pirate
Los Angeles is on the coast of the Pacific Ocean, while Reno is more

Related to that is if you cross the river due SOUTH from Detroit, Michigan you end up in Canada.


When using the Panama Canal to travel from the Atlantic to the Pacific, you travel northWEST to southEAST.

The Mayor of New York wanted the city to secede from the Union when the southern states began to. He invisioned NY as a neutral port, able to trade with North and South alike.

Originally posted by DBear



When using the Panama Canal to travel from the Atlantic to the Pacific, you travel northWEST to southEAST.

It's the only place in the world where you can see the sun rise over the Pacific and set over the Atlantic. I was there last summer on a misions trip and saw it set on the Atlantic, but our hotel wasn't on the coast, so I didn't see it rise. :(

WWWeasel, you are incorrect for two reasons. 1) The sun appears to travel east to west, not west to east. 2) Panama backs onto the Pacific, but not the Atlantic, the Caribbean being in the way.

Originally posted by MattII
WWWeasel, you are incorrect for two reasons. 1) The sun appears to travel east to west, not west to east. 2) Panama backs onto the Pacific, but not the Atlantic, the Caribbean being in the way.

1) Because of the way the isthmus (sp?) curves, part of the Pacific is actually to the EAST of the Atlantc/Caribbean, so from the canal region, the sun appears over the Pacific and sets on the Atlantic side.

2) The Caribbean Sea is an extension of the Atlantic Ocean.

Panama is shaped kinda like this:
_
_Atl / \_
\__/ Pac

The first submarine in South Asia was the PNS Ghazi or the ex-USS Diablo. However, it was lost in an accident in the 1971 War off Vizag.

The last Mughal Emperor was a contemporary of Abe Lincoln;)

St.Thomas' cemetery can be found in South India, don't know the exact place, but it is definitely much earlier than 300 AD

Mentioned this before, but a pillar in what is now Delhi, opposite to that of the more famous Qutub Minar, is made of iron....and has not rusted for 1700 years despite being fully exposed to the elements throughout the time.

The city we now know as Delhi is actually the 7th layer built over 6 other cities, ranging back to Indraprastha, the capital of the Pandavas in the Ramayana.

There are more bald eagles in the Canadian province of British Columbia than in the entire US.
There are more Muslims in India than there are people in Pakistan.
When the Falkland War began, a British single, "Under Pressure" by Queen and David Bowie, was no.1 in the Argentinan charts. Just a year before, several hundreds of thousands of Argentinan fans cheered to the British national anthem being played at the end of a number of Queen concerts in and outside of Buenos Aires.

Originally posted by rilnator


My nomination for the stupidest war ever goes to a war fought in the 20th century between 2 central American countries. Both were vying for a position in the upcoming world cup and after the second match war broke out over the result. I'm a bit shady on exact details or even the names of the countries and I think the war didn't even last a week.

errrr......the war was because of border conflicts and other sovereign problems, it was not the result of the soccer match itself :rolleyes:

This isn't really a historical thing, but my great-grandpa Treml was born in the same town as Adolf Hitler. They were in the same unit in WWI. They were both injured in the face. One became a manatical tyrant infamous throughout the world. The other resisted entirely and saw his son drafted and killed.

The Austrians, fooled themselves into thinking that the Ottomans were attacking, withdrew from the "battle" while fighting an invisible army, resulting in 10,000 of their own troops dead and their Emperor, knocked from his horse.

Napoleon, wanted to convert his army and himself to Islam when he was in Egypt. Messengers ran through the streets of Cairo with news that Napoleon admired Mohamed. The army was at first reluctant to part with their foreskins but the Imams of Cairo assured them that circumsion was only a symbolic thing.

The Anthem "Star Spangled Banner" was inspired by the British pounding rockets in the War of 1812.

Britain and France, almost came to blows over antiquities

The Ottomans used the Parthenon as a gunpowder storage facility.

When Athens was made capital of Greece again in 1833, it was a small town of 4,000 people. It was restored as Capital due to its historic significance.

The Austrians, fooled themselves into thinking that the Ottomans were attacking, withdrew from the "battle" while fighting an invisible army, resulting in 10,000 of their own troops dead and their Emperor, knocked from his horse.

I am almost entirely certain that this story is a fabrication.

Friedrich I, King in Prussia had a fairly unusual death. His wife, Sophia Louisa, was a total lunatic, and one evening in 1713 she convinced herself that Friedrich was about to divorce her and marry her off to the Sultan of Morocco. So she, wearing only a white shift, ran through the glass doors into his rooms, cutting herself up badly in the process, and leapt onto the bed where the king was sleeping. The king wakes up with a start, notices this bloody woman wearing white on top of him, and goes into a coma. There's an old Hohenzollern tradition that before the death of one of the family a "white lady" appeared, and he figured his number was up, apparently. A little while later, he dies without emerging from his comatose state.

And were orginally called "Land Battleships" :)

Land Destroyers. Destroyers were the bread and butter of navies.

or stupidest war ever:

Postage Stamps When Bolivia issued a postage stamp featuring a map of its territory that included the disputed border region of Gran Chaco, Paraguay responded by issuing a larger stamp, including Chaco in its own map. The stamps became bigger and bigger until the two sides came to blows in 1932.

Anyway, the Chaco War wasn't "caused" by stamps, it was the false rumors of oil strikes which both desperately poor countries needed; they had both lost wars in the 19th century which ruined their economies permanently.

My nomination for the stupidest war ever goes to a war fought in the 20th century between 2 central American countries. Both were vying for a position in the upcoming world cup and after the second match war broke out over the result. I'm a bit shady on exact details or even the names of the countries and I think the war didn't even last a week.

The stupidest war ever was the Emu War. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_war)

In january 1794, a Dutch fleet, was captured by... French hussars.
Why is it funny? Because the fleet wasnot in port, but at sea.
Some said the hussars captured it after a charge, but it's probably legend. I think it was more peaceful.

It was frozen in port, right?

The Ottomans used the Parthenon as a gunpowder storage facility.

Most of the reason the Parthenon is in such ruins today is that a Sicilian siege cannon struck it, setting off the gunpowder in a huge explosion.

I am almost entirely certain that this story is a fabrication.

Battle of Karansebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It started as a drunken fight over a schnapps cache. Later, the minority troops, having no knowledge of German, mistook their officers' calls of "halt, halt" as "Allah, Allah!" Among other stupid things to happen that day.

What about Napoleon being taller than the average frenchman of the time, contrary to common belief.

Most of the reason the Parthenon is in such ruins today is that a Sicilian siege cannon struck it, setting off the gunpowder in a huge explosion.
Venetian. :mischief: My Greek Art and Archaeology prof has nothing but vile invective for Francesco Morosini.

Venetian. :mischief: My Greek Art and Archaeology prof has nothing but vile invective for Francesco Morosini.
Actually, Morosini might have been in overall command, but the Venetian forces besieging the Akropolis, who scored that direct hit on the Ottoman gunpowder magazine, was commanded by the Swedish general Otto Königsmarck, currently in Venetian service.

It forced the Ottomans to capitulate. There's still a bust of general Königsmark in the Venice Arsenal celebrating him for this. He died from the plague shortly after.

Edit: Looking for something about him on Wikipedia, with no luck so far. I might translate some stuff from older works. He was quite a character, fought all over Europe and personally knew people like Turenne and Condé.:)

The stupidest war ever was the Emu War. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_war)
We actually had someone advocating doing the same thing to wild horses over here about ten years ago. Surely even our military has better things to do.

Battle of Karansebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It started as a drunken fight over a schnapps cache. Later, the minority troops, having no knowledge of German, mistook their officers' calls of "halt, halt" as "Allah, Allah!" Among other stupid things to happen that day.
I think this actually beats my previous personal favourite, the Voyage of the Damned (http://www.hullwebs.co.uk/content/l-20c/disaster/dogger-bank/voyage-of-dammed.htm).

Actually, Morosini might have been in overall command, but the Venetian forces besieging the Akropolis, who scored that direct hit on the Ottoman gunpowder magazine, was commanded by the Swedish general Otto Königsmarck, currently in Venetian service.

It forced the Ottomans to capitulate. There's still a bust of general Königsmark in the Venice Arsenal celebrating him for this. He died from the plague shortly after.

Edit: Looking for something about him on Wikipedia, with no luck so far. I might translate some stuff from older works. He was quite a character, fought all over Europe and personally knew people like Turenne and Condé.:)
She probably won't get as annoyed if I tell her about Königsmarck, because she's built up a lot of annoyance for the Venetians over the whole Frangokratia thing in addition to the Parthenon bit. ;) Thanks for the heads-up though...I might be able to use this dude somehow...

I am almost entirely certain that this story is a fabrication.

It's absolutely real my friend. :p It's known as Battle of Caransebeş (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes). And yes, it's amazing.

Edit: Should've read the whole thread before responding, Cheezy beat me to it.

Would be good to get some scholarly references on that. Such books as the references there are always funny, but even then, it doesn't disprove the fabrication hypothesis.

My history teacher told me that Peter the Great exchanged very tall soldiers with the Germans for dwarf-men soldiers. So they each have a small part of their army with really small soldiers and really tal ones LOL

The Prussian king at the time, Friedrich Wilhelm I, was obsessed with having big dudes for his grenadier regiments and for his Potsdam Guards. Recruiters went all over Europe, mostly illegally, to try to get men over six feet tall for this purpose. Thousands and thousands of thalers were expended yearly to fill up the ranks, international incidents occurred when Prussian recruiters attempted to kidnap recalcitrant foreign giants, and overall the whole situation made the king a bit of a laughingstock. I've not heard of any specific incidents about Pyotr, Friedrich Wilhelm, and dwarves, but it's eminently possible.

A King obsessed with filling the ranks of his elite foot regiments with midgets instead of tall guys. Now that would be interesting history.

Wow, five-and-half-year old necro! :goodjob:

Battle of Karansebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

It started as a drunken fight over a schnapps cache. Later, the minority troops, having no knowledge of German, mistook their officers' calls of "halt, halt" as "Allah, Allah!" Among other stupid things to happen that day.

First of all, note that there are only two sources for this Wikipedia article, and that neither of them appear to be of professional scholarship but rather popular history.

The story itself just sounds far too incredulous to be true. "Halt" in German would be translated as either "halt" or "aufhören Sie." Neither of those sound remotely like the word "Allah." It wouldn't even be comedic as an Abbott and Costello routine, much less plausible in real life. So as I said; I'm almost entirely certain that this anecdote is a fabrication.

First of all, note that there are only two sources for this Wikipedia article, and that neither of them appear to be of professional scholarship but rather popular history.

The story itself just sounds far too incredulous to be true. "Halt" in German would be translated as either "halt" or "aufhören Sie." Neither of those sound remotely like the word "Allah." It wouldn't even be comedic as an Abbott and Costello routine, much less plausible in real life. So as I said; I'm almost entirely certain that this anecdote is a fabrication.

Sorry, got to correct your German here - the second would be either just 'aufhören!' or, conceivably, 'hören Sie auf!'.

The officers are supposed to have shouted 'Halt! Halt!', which could indeed have sounded like 'Allah!' in the confusion. The 'a' in both words has the same sound in German - also, they would have shouted with a long 'a': 'Haaaalt!Haaaalt!"

I don't see it. "Haaaaalt!Haaaalt!" doesn't sound too much like "Allah!" The former would be accented on both "syllables," so it would be almost monotonous. "Allah" is accented on the first syllable, or the second syllable, but not both, so it doesn't sound monotonous. I don't really see it.

It's not even as if the rest of the story makes sense.

Suppose every single soldier in the entire army was ridiculously drunk. (This is already a grave assumption that borders on impossibility, but stay with me.) Now, they confuse "halt" with "Allah," and they're completely smashed so they take that to be the Ottoman soldiers, who they somehow had no idea waltzed into their camp and are suspiciously dressed like themselves.

Now, they pick up their rifles and shoot at each other. Very high end estimate here; that's maybe just 300 casualties. Remember, they're so drunk that they're confusing Austrian soldiers for Turks, it's rather miraculous that they're able to even lift their weapons and fire.

This story insinuates that after this happened, they proceeded to reload and fire about ten more volleys. Now, if that's not stupid enough, the author of this myth continues to say that the artillery commander -- going against every protocol in existence -- was sober but stupid enough to aim all of his weaponry at his own corps and annihilate his own soldiers. Given how hard it was to do this in the 18th century in the dead of night while completely inebriated, the idea that this happened over and over again until the entire army had routed themselves is unbelievable.

I think it's just a way to make Austrians look bad :p Although, the only reason the Ottomans were pushed back was because of the Poles, so... anyway, the story is good to tell, but holds no water.

Although, the only reason the Ottomans were pushed back was because of the Poles, so... anyway, the story is good to tell, but holds no water.
Wrong war, massive overstatement of the events in the other war, yada yada yada.

You forget what message board you are on, Jesus was a Pole here :)

Oh. I got confused :blush:

You forget what message board you are on, Jesus was a Pole here :)

huh? I guess I missed that post :p

huh? I guess I missed that post :p
Words of wisdom: stay far away from any discussion of Poland's geographical location on CFC. Far, far away.

Anyway yeah back to the topic we kinda sorta started on there the Austrian Army is mostly just stereotyped as being bad, it's kinda sad how people always look at the bad incidents and never notice the awesome ones. :(

Yeah, people seem to think that Austria never was powerful, but they were considered as such by Bismark!

Not to mention the guy in my avatar atm...hell, Eugen von Savoyen, friggin great captain of history, worked for the Habsburgs. Erzherzog Karl...Radetzky von Radetz...Piccolomini...Montecuculi...:dunno: History myths, what can you do?

So are you Austrian or do you just like Austria?

Although, the only reason the Ottomans were pushed back was because of the Poles, so...
That's true. If you thought the Austrians were drunk you should have seen the Turks. They walked right into that pole.

So are you Austrian or do you just like Austria?
Neither! Maybe the second one a tiny bit. I'm just one of those annoying guys who gets his internet jollies from ostentatiously disproving common myths, acting like he actually knows what he's talking about, some crap like that. :D
That's true. If you thought the Austrians were drunk you should have seen the Turks. They walked right into that pole.
:lol:

Neither! Maybe the second one a tiny bit. I'm just one of those annoying guys who gets his internet jollies from ostentatiously disproving common myths, acting like he actually knows what he's talking about, some crap like that.
Me too. We are just like brothers :)

But when I think about Austria the first two things that come to mind are:
Hitler
Arnold Schwarzenegger

Granted those are both modern people, but it doesn't provide for a good base to build on.

I'm particularly fond of Austria myself, since while the Habsburgs have done some cringe-worthy things in history, they seemed to be the least pariahianic™ of all of the Great Power dynasties in Europe for most of the Middle Ages/Early Modern period. (Though I'd still take Malta over them any day, but now we're getting off the off-topic.)

Austria was generally lagging behind the other Great Powers militarily, but at no point were they ever a pure disgrace by comparison.

Words of wisdom: stay far away from any discussion of Poland's geographical location on CFC. Far, far away.
Would Central Europe be far enough away?

Austria was never that weak or second-rate, but they definitely were falling behind everyone else - Turkey excepted. Even Russia seemed to be keeping up better than they were towards the end, though its internal problems may have been even more prevalent.

First of all, note that there are only two sources for this Wikipedia article, and that neither of them appear to be of professional scholarship but rather popular history.

The story itself just sounds far too incredulous to be true. "Halt" in German would be translated as either "halt" or "aufhören Sie." Neither of those sound remotely like the word "Allah." It wouldn't even be comedic as an Abbott and Costello routine, much less plausible in real life. So as I said; I'm almost entirely certain that this anecdote is a fabrication.

You have to remember the Austro-Hungarian army consisted of many nationalities, each speaking different languages. There was no uniform language in the Austro-Hungarian army, and the Germanic officers would not be understood by Magyars, or such.

You have to remember the Austro-Hungarian army consisted of many nationalities, each speaking different languages. There was no uniform language in the Austro-Hungarian army, and the Germanic officers would not be understood by Magyars, or such.

Irrelevant. The author says that the officers shouted "halt," which sounds nothing like "Allah" in any accent. Not to mention the various other holes and absurdities in the story.

Irrelevant. The author says that the officers shouted "halt," which sounds nothing like "Allah" in any accent. Not to mention the various other holes and absurdities in the story.
Halt! Halt!
HaltHalt
HalHal
HalHa
Hala
Halla
Allah...

Sound morphing...

Halt! Halt!
HaltHalt
HalHal
HalHa
Hala
Halla
Allah...

Sound morphing...

Exactly.

Just remember, we're talking about confused shouting in the stress of combat, here... half heard with gunfire and screams all around.

I'm not saying this means the story has to be true - but the sounds aren't so far apart you can say with confidence: this sounds nothing like 'Allah'.

The officers' shouts would sound like: 'Haaaalt.... Haaaalt". Consonants are hard to hear with a lot of background noise, so it isn't so far from 'Allaaaaaah!!!'

The "whole army" wasn't raging drunk, it was a small group of men, a few units at most. It was they who started the fighting.

Your sound morphing is pretty forced looking to me. I don't see it. :dunno:

Your sound morphing is pretty forced looking to me. I don't see it. :dunno:
Neapolis.
Neapols.
Napols.
Naples.

Angle-Land.
Angland.
England.

Words change. Sure, my examples are over a long period of time, but they're also not heard in the middle of a battle. How often do you mis-hear words a day? Imagine how much worse it is in a pitched battle, especially when the word isn't in your language to begin with.

Your sound morphing is pretty forced looking to me. I don't see it. :dunno:
Halt! Halt! in a confused environment, with lots of background noise, German officers, non german speaking troops, some drunk, it's not so stretched to think that the t at the end is nt heard very well

So Halt! Halt! can be heard as Hal Hal

And if you say it fast and repeated, then it's HalHalHalHal, or Allah Allah Allah, depending what your mind wants to ear and how you cut it.

I'm not saying this really happened, just that the argument "halt!" cannot be mistaken with Allah seems to be rather weak. I think it can be mistaken.

Alright, I see your point.

Halt! Halt! in a confused environment, with lots of background noise, German officers, non german speaking troops, some drunk, it's not so stretched to think that the t at the end is nt heard very well

So Halt! Halt! can be heard as Hal Hal

And if you say it fast and repeated, then it's HalHalHalHal, or Allah Allah Allah, depending what your mind wants to ear and how you cut it.

I'm not saying this really happened, just that the argument "halt!" cannot be mistaken with Allah seems to be rather weak. I think it can be mistaken.

It becomes even more likely if you've already decided that the Muslims are attacking.

It becomes even more likely if you've already decided that the Muslims are attacking.
...which, once you've heard that someone is definitely fighting, is pretty sensible conclusion to make.

...which, once you've heard that someone is definitely fighting, is pretty sensible conclusion to make.

Well what moron would say "oh I bet its those crazy Slovenians duking it out over a schapps cache?" I mean, an army doesn't fight itself every day ya know.

Well what moron would say "oh I bet its those crazy Slovenians duking it out over a schapps cache?" I mean, an army doesn't fight itself every day ya know.

:goodjob:

In August of 1946 the American Navy sent a task force of 4,700 men and 13 ships to Antarctica on what was supposed to be a training mission. The task force returned abruptly in February of 1947, six months ahead of schedule. It is believed that they were really sent there to destroy a secret Nazi base beneath the ice.

That sounds highly unlikely. It sounds like it was out of Indiana Jones :lol: The Nazis were more into twisted archeology outside their boarders. Plus, Antarctica offered no strategic advantage to them. By the time the US was in the war, the Nazis weren't planning settling Antarctica. Also, the majority of their navy in use was U-Boats, which aren't very good for starting an subterranean city under Antarctica.

That sounds highly unlikely. It sounds like it was out of Indiana Jones :lol:
Clive Cussler (http://www.amazon.com/Atlantis-Found-Dirk-Novel-Adventure/dp/0425177173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255051142&sr=8-1), actually. :mischief:

Well what moron would say "oh I bet its those crazy Slovenians duking it out over a schapps cache?"
Anyone who's ever met Slovenians, that's who.

In August of 1946 the American Navy sent a task force of 4,700 men and 13 ships to Antarctica on what was supposed to be a training mission. The task force returned abruptly in February of 1947, six months ahead of schedule. It is believed that they were really sent there to destroy a secret Nazi base beneath the ice.
Where they launched their UFOs from, right?

When the British conquered Bengal, they began monopolizing salt production and taxing salt, to the point that this policy caused widespread salt deficiencies. As a result, salt smuggling from other parts of India where salt is cheaper - for instances, the Princely States, or other parts of British India areas not ruled by the Bengal Presidency - became rampant.

The solution was to establish a patrolled "Customs Line" snaking across India from Punjab in the north to Orissa in the south separating the Bengal-ruled territories from the other British territories and the rest of the subcontinent. This eventually evolved by the 1850s into a 2000-miles long, nigh impenetrable and almost continuous barrier of thorny hedges and trees, maintained and guarded by 12,000 personnel.

As British rule became more consolidated, the Customs Line was dismantled. A search by Roy Moxham eventually found a small embankment in Uttar Pradesh, which is the last remaining trace of the Great Hedge of India.

http://www.roymoxham.com/userimages/Hmap.gif

Upon hearing of the above conversation on the Battle of Karánsebes, it vaguely reminded me of something I had read rather last summer. Sure enough, I dug up the book and found that had a paragraph on the exact battle.

Taken directly from p.410, 411 of The Ottoman Centuries:
"On the Austrian front, they had won a respite, through the incompetence of the emperor, who chose to command his own forces. After a large Ottoman army had crossed the Danube to defeat an Austrian force, Joseph assembled his own large army to march against it. But unsure of victory, he took fright, and instead retreated by night in the direction of Temesvar. Confusion and panic reigned in the darkness when the Austrians mistook a force of their own, late in retreating, for the Turks in pursuit. Forming themselves into defensive groups, they started to fire blindly in every direction. Only the light of daybreak revealed that they had been firing on their own Austrian comrades, who now lay in the thousands, dead or dying around them. Of this catastrophic blunder, the Turks took full advantge, swiftly attacking their enemy to capture much of his artillery, then pursuing him in retreat through an unhealthy tract of country, ehre, quite apart from casualties in batte, the emperor lost tens of thousands of men through disease and pestilence. Never again- to the misfortune of the Turks- did he venture to command his own army in the field."
Lord Kinross, The Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire. Perennial, (republished in) 2002. (Orginally published 1977)


There are a few notable differences in this recounting, but I count this book as a good source for most of my Ottoman-related historical questions.

I own that book. It is a good book.

That scenario is more likely. It happens more often than you'd like that a retreating (or scouting) force is fired on their own troops thinking their the enemy.

Upon hearing of the above conversation on the Battle of Karánsebes, it vaguely reminded me of something I had read rather last summer. Sure enough, I dug up the book and found that had a paragraph on the exact battle.

Know what's in common between this battle and the one people have been talking about before? They both happened in TRANSYLVANIA!!!!11!!11!!! Mwahahaaaa :devil:


Yes, I am aware that neither happened in Transylvania proper, but the Banat region is quite commonly included as part of a "Transylvania with annexes"

^That reminds me: Kaiser Franz-Josef of Austria-Hungary had "Count of Transylvania" in his official title. It also included King of Jerusalem, and a ton of other lands whose names didn't stick out to me like those two.

^That reminds me: Kaiser Franz-Josef of Austria-Hungary had "Count of Transylvania" in his official title. It also included King of Jerusalem, and a ton of other lands whose names didn't stick out to me like those two.
Yep, royal weird or semi-weird titles could fill a thread. Too bad Ferdinand and Isabella didn't ever really use the title 'Emperor of Constantinople' that Andreas Palaiologos sold them, that'd have been epic. :(

That sounds highly unlikely. It sounds like it was out of Indiana Jones :lol: The Nazis were more into twisted archeology outside their boarders. Plus, Antarctica offered no strategic advantage to them. By the time the US was in the war, the Nazis weren't planning settling Antarctica. Also, the majority of their navy in use was U-Boats, which aren't very good for starting an subterranean city under Antarctica.


Where they launched their UFOs from, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Highjump

The Ottomans love their titles:

Padishah, Hünkar, Hakan ül-Berreyn vel-Bahreyn; Sovereign of the House of Osman, Sultan of Sultans, Khan of Khans, Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe, Custodian of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem, Caesar of the Roman Empire, Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magris, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of Arabic Iraq and of Acem, of Basra, of Al-Hasa, of Dilen, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyarbakır, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of the Morea, of the Marmara Sea, the Black Sea and also its coasts, of Anatolia, of Rumelia, Baghdad, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the plain of Kypchak, of the whole country of the Tartars, of Kefe and of all the neighboring countries, of Bosnia and its dependencies, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the Vilayet of Serbia, with all the castles, forts and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependencies and borders.

Apparently the Ottomans also used zill Allah fil-alem at one point (shadow of God on Earth).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Highjump
Conspiracy theories

Operation Highjump has become a topic among UFO conspiracy theorists, who claim it was a covert US military operation to conquer alleged secret underground Nazi facilities in Antarctica and capture the German Vril flying discs, or Thule mercury-powered spaceship prototypes. This has been the central theme of Robert Doherty's "Area 51" series of novels.

An esoteric Hitlerist legend recounts that Adolf Hitler did not commit suicide in 1945, but fled to Argentina, then to an SS base under the ice in New Swabia during the early 1950s where he resumed his career as a painter. According to this account, Operation Highjump, the largest expedition mounted to the Antarctic, is claimed to have been sent to wipe out the Nazi presence.
Um, that pretty much proves both my smartarse point, and Vortilex's more serious one. There was no Nazi base in Antarctica. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Padishah, Hünkar, Hakan ül-Berreyn vel-Bahreyn; Sovereign of the House of Osman, Sultan of Sultans, Khan of Khans, Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe, Custodian of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem, Caesar of the Roman Empire, Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magris, of Barka, of Kairouan, of Aleppo, of Arabic Iraq and of Acem, of Basra, of Al-Hasa, of Dilen, of Ar Raqqah, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyarbakır, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of the Morea, of the Marmara Sea, the Black Sea and also its coasts, of Anatolia, of Rumelia, Baghdad, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the plain of Kypchak, of the whole country of the Tartars, of Kefe and of all the neighboring countries, of Bosnia and its dependencies, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the Vilayet of Serbia, with all the castles, forts and cities, of all Albania, of all Eflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependencies and borders.

So did he rule the Marmara Sea but not its coasts? Useful.

Um, that pretty much proves both my smartarse point, and Vortilex's more serious one. There was no Nazi base in Antarctica. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?
Well this is the Funny/Weird History Facts thread. I could have just as easily left out the part about the "Nazi base", but I wanted to make it weirder.

Well this is the Funny/Weird History Facts thread. I could have just as easily left out the part about the "Nazi base", but I wanted to make it weirder.
Point. Should have said "it is believed by certain whackjobs" than just "it is believed" though, if that's what you were doing.

Weird history fact that most of you probably already know: Australia once managed to actually lose our Prime Minister. On Sunday 17 December, 1967, Prime Minister Harold Holt vanished without a trace. It is believed by certain whackjobs - :p - that he was kidnapped by the Chinese, or UFOs. Possibly even Chinese UFOs.

So did he rule the Marmara Sea but not its coasts? Useful.I bet it's from those inane Romans making provinces out of water.Possibly even Chinese UFOs.Wouldn't that make them Chinese FOs, then?

I bet it's from those inane Romans making provinces out of water.Wouldn't that make them Chinese FOs, then?
Not necessarily. The U doesn't only mean you don't know their nationality, but also that you can't specify or recognize the type.

Well this is the Funny/Weird History Facts thread. I could have just as easily left out the part about the "Nazi base", but I wanted to make it weirder.

But that's it. It's the Funny/Wierd History Facts thread. If you wanted to make it wierder, we could say, "the US is a giant country taht wanted to create a nation of turkeys, but failed" wich is really weird. But it's not a fact. Was that a fact that your post spoke of or just something wierd?

I have another weird fact from history concerning my family :)

My ancestor, James Frazier, fought for the British in the American War of Independence. When they lost, he changed his last name to his middle name and fled for West Virginia (I'm not giving out my last name)

His son, Vincent, having no other option, fought for the Americans in the War of 1812.

His son, Aquillus Cumillus Montague, fought for the Confederacy in the American Civil War, but deserted because his wife had a son.

that son, Orel, didn't fight, but his brother became Taoist from Methodist.

Orel's son, Gene Montague, wanted to join the army in Viet Nam, but couldn't because of his glasses.

His son, my father, served in Nurestan not as a soldier, but as a diplomat.

On my mom's side, we have a divine notification when a relative dies. If they die, they say, "goodbye" in a dream, or their photo falls.

My grandma's side (on my dad's side) has a connection with ghosts (or whatever happened to be rocking the rocker...)

Wierd, I guess. :p

It sounds like, in your family, the reasonableness of the cause they fight for is directly proportional to the reasonableness of their name.

haha. We tend to have that problem :p

Now, what is reasonableness of Vortilex?

I'm afraid you are in for a very unjust cause.

True, reasonableness is proportional, but in my opinion, it's what the majority say. In Latin America, it's reasonable that everyone in the Americas is American and the US-Americans are only the US.

I have another weird fact from history concerning my family
This all reminds me of a famous figure in Canadian history.

William Lyon Mackenzie King, who many regard as some combination or our best, most interesting, and craziest Prime Minister.

His grandfather and namesake William Lyon Mackenzie led the failed Upper Canada Rebellion of 1837 against the crown. His parents predicted the occurance of WWII for him, after they died. He is also known to converse with a number of other dead individuals, including his dog. Granted none of this was known until after his death.

This all reminds me of a famous figure in Canadian history.

William Lyon Mackenzie King, who many regard as some combination or our best, most interesting, and craziest Prime Minister.

His grandfather and namesake William Lyon Mackenzie led the failed Upper Canada Rebellion of 1837 against the crown. His parents predicted the occurance of WWII for him, after they died. He is also known to converse with a number of other dead individuals, including his dog. Granted none of this was known until after his death.
Too bad he didn't drink his own urine every morning, like a certain other head-of-state. Make him even weirder.

:lol: which head of state are you referring to? Sounds like WLM King was weird!

I have to say, if his craziness extended no further than talking to a few dead people, that's really not very crazy. I should think that most people who outlive a spouse do it at some point, for example.

Well, it was more than that. Apparently he based some policy around the recommendations of the spirits, or something. For instance, he supported appeasement because his dead father told him that Hitler was about to be murdered by a Jew, or something like that.

I have to say, if his craziness extended no further than talking to a few dead people, that's really not very crazy. I should think that most people who outlive a spouse do it at some point, for example.
While he likely only talked to the dead (I have heard stories about other, highly questionable, stuff, but as far as I know this is the only thing we know for sure), it was not limited to occasional conversations with a loved one.

He regularly spoke with many dead people (his mother and father are obvious, but also his dog and FDR), he had multiple mediums, these discussions were not just of a personal nature, but he requested advice on running his government (I hope his dog was only personal, though) and the war effort. And sure that is not crazy, per se, but any major modern politician from a western country would be a laughing stock if this came out. Keep in mind this knowledge was very limited (him, close personal friends, and the mediums) until after his death.

And look at the other PMs, without King and Trudeau you have one of the least interesting line of heads of government ever (Chretien had a few moments too, though).

I read this today. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kar%C3%A1nsebes)

I find it pretty funny.

I suggest you go through this thread again :)

Everyone hates Austria now :( Österreich über Alles! (Austria over everything) I wish :p

I like "Austriae est imperare orbi universo"

In my book that is a different empire. And by that I mean, I actually wrote a book, and an empire is officially the Universal Empire, or something like that, I wrote it two years ago :p

Do Austrians speak Deutsch (German)?

I believe they speak a slightly different dialect of German.

By this I mean it is akin to American English vs. Australian English, but I am not certain of the degree of difference.

They say "grüß Gott" instead of "guten tag", which I always thought was a little strange. It seems like a more Puritanical thing to do. Not that I don't like it -- it's just a bit out of the ordinary.

Do Austrians speak Deutsch (German)?
They speak a dialect closely related to Bavarian. It can be difficult to understand for Germans not from that area, not just because of significant vocabulary and pronunciation ones but also grammatical - they don't tend to use the imperfect tense, for instance, which is a huge crutch for me at least. In my opinion the changes are more pronounced than those between Australian and American English, but I'm sure Bill would love to pop up somewhere and tell me I'm wrong for whatever reason. That is, if he weren't b&.

Wir sprechen Deutsch, aber unser R sind ein bisschen schwerer wie das Deutsches R. Mein Grammatik ist nicht so gut :blush:

Translation: We speak German, but our R is a bit harsher than the German R. My Grammar is not so good :blush:

What a crosspost.

I suppose it'd be a difference between "Mein Luftkissenfahrzeug ist voller Aale" and "Mis Luftchüssiboot isch volle Aal"

They speak a dialect closely related to Bavarian. It can be difficult to understand for Germans not from that area, not just because of significant vocabulary and pronunciation ones but also grammatical - they don't tend to use the imperfect tense, for instance, which is a huge crutch for me at least. In my opinion the changes are more pronounced than those between Australian and American English, but I'm sure Bill would love to pop up somewhere and tell me I'm wrong for whatever reason. That is, if he weren't b&.
God, this "Bill" isn't one of those guys who thinks that Australian and American English are different languages, rather than dialects, is he? Because I HATE those people.

Wir sprechen Deutsch, aber unser R ist ein bisschen stärker als das deutsche R. Meine Grammatik ist nicht so gut :blush:
Corrected that for you. :) (although I have no idea if names of letters like R are neuter or not, I just left the "das" in there, thinking there's quite a high chance for it to be right)

They speak a dialect closely related to Bavarian. It can be difficult to understand for Germans not from that area, not just because of significant vocabulary and pronunciation ones but also grammatical - they don't tend to use the imperfect tense, for instance, which is a huge crutch for me at least. In my opinion the changes are more pronounced than those between Australian and American English, but I'm sure Bill would love to pop up somewhere and tell me I'm wrong for whatever reason. That is, if he weren't b&.

Just to make an additional clarification, in case anyone had any doubts about this - the "high" language is identical with the German in Germany, Switzerland, etc. It is just the vernacular that is different.

Question, as you're a native speaker, can you tell the difference between Bavarian and Austrian? I thought they are the same, but I'm really not good yet at identifying German accents, apart from the obvious ones (for example, the ones from western and northern Germany, cause I live there and heard them a lot).

Thanks. :)

They speak a dialect closely related to Bavarian. It can be difficult to understand for Germans not from that area, not just because of significant vocabulary and pronunciation ones but also grammatical - they don't tend to use the imperfect tense, for instance, which is a huge crutch for me at least. In my opinion the changes are more pronounced than those between Australian and American English...

One can find similar differences between Australian and American English, I think. Americans seem rarely, if at all, to use the pluperfect tense. I suppose that's less common than the imperfect, but still.

Well, I also noticed the lack of pluperfect in American English, but you must know that the perfect/imperfect system in German is entirely different to the one in English (or to the one Romanian, for that matter). The imperfect and the the perfect are actually interchangeable in the great majority of cases. In fact, in written German, the imperfect is the only acceptable past tense (together with the pluperfect), which goes just to demonstrate how the two have basically the same meaning, only expressed in a different way.

That's very hard to get used to, for a non-native speaker. Imagine a question like "have you seen him yesterday?" with an answer like: "oh yeah, I was seeing him yesterday." Full stop. Pause.

Don't you feel like there should be something more coming after that?* Well, in English there should, in Romanian too, but in German absolutely not. In fact, like I said, in books it's the only tense you will encounter for past, together with the pluperfect, obviously. So a German book might very well contain passages like "he was walking through the town, when he was seeing a bird. Then the bird was seeming to move, and it was starting to talk to him. He was not being able to believe his eyes. The next morning, he was meeting his wife. She was asking him what he had done the day before." etc, etc, etc.

Considering this fact, that the imperfect and compound perfect are interchangeable and have the same meaning, the fact that Bavarians don't use one of them is not that hard to get used to, although if you are accustomed to the mix of imperfect and compound perfect used in the rest of Germany, it will indeed sound annoying and possibly even simple minded. But the situation is incomparable to the English distinction between various tenses, because there are no "double tenses" in English - meaning two tenses that have the same meaning.

________________
* nobody would use the imperfect in this particular sentence, in day-to-day conversations. It was an exaggerated example meant to show what I mean.

Technically neither of the sides fighting the English civil war won. When King Charles was arressted and executed, Protector Oliver Cromwell took over the English nation and his government was a Republic not a democratic like the Parlimentarians wanted. When they objected and wouldn't pass religious reforms, he disbanded the parliment and ruled without them (much as Kings had done before).

The shortest war in the world lasted only 38 minutes between the UK and Zanzibar in 1896. One petty officer was injuried and 500 people (mostly civilians killed) during the war. After the war ended the leadership fled to German controlled territory and were captured by British forces during WW1 where they were promptly passed a bill, for the cost of the war.

There is a whole dialect of Russian, called "Mat," which is dedicated purely to cursing. There are things you can say in Russian that make even the nastiest phrases in English look like Victorian pleasantries. English-speakers have made cursing a science, but Russian speakers have made cursing an art form. My Russian professor refuses to teach Mat to undergraduates because it is so difficult.

I don't understand the use of the word "dialect" in this context, but anyway, that's extremely interesting. Let me just say that compound and very complex swearing are extremely common everywhere in Europe that's both east of Germany and north of Greece, regardless of whether the language is Slavic, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, or Romance. I, and many others, have attempted to translate quite a number of them from our native languages, which proved entirely futile, of course. It's interesting to hear that Russian has such a developed system for that.

Question, as you're a native speaker, can you tell the difference between Bavarian and Austrian? I thought they are the same, but I'm really not good yet at identifying German accents, apart from the obvious ones (for example, the ones from western and northern Germany, cause I live there and heard them a lot).
I'm hardly native-speaking - badly out of practice and most of the German I was dealing with was colloquial anyway - but I remember Austrians using "wann" when Bavarians and other Germans would say "wenn". They pronounce most words slightly differently - one of the things I remember best is the way they'd say 'vo'. So where most Germans would say 'Ich komme aus München', a Bavarian might say 'I kim(m) vo Minga' and an Austrian would say 'I kimm vo Minga' as well, but with a longer O? Kinda like a ô, really.
One can find similar differences between Australian and American English, I think. Americans seem rarely, if at all, to use the pluperfect tense. I suppose that's less common than the imperfect, but still.
:dunno: You could probably fill a thimble with my understanding of linguistics. Pluperfect is 'he had gone to the store before he went to work', right?

[offtopic]

this isn't the grammar nazi thread

:eek: Even though the term "Grammar Nazi" is used to describe those with the annoying tendency to correct grammar, I am against its use. :mad: It is suggesting that those that care about grammar follow a National Socialist ideology, and thus will kill you or send you to a concentration camp if you do not follow grammar well. I think we should use the term "English teacher" from now on :goodjob:

Moving us back on-topic: Did y'all know that Hitler got married less than 72 hours before he shot himself? His new bride simply took poison, against Hitler's orders, which were to shoot herself.

I know that may be well-known, especially among those of this forum, but I thought I'd spark conversation back to history, not the use of Grammar in English, German, and Russian.

On the subject of Hitler; his father was also his great-uncle.

That explains soooooooo much!

Moving us back on-topic: Did y'all know that Hitler got married less than 72 hours before he shot himself? His new bride simply took poison, against Hitler's orders, which were to shoot herself.

Whilst I knew that she took cyanide I've never heard that she disobeyed an order to shoot herself before. None of the witnesses to those final days in the bunker refer to it in any of the books I've read on the matter.

I don't know if it was an order per say, but I read it in R. L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of Adolf Hitler. What I read was, "the guards expected to hear two gunshots, one from the Führer and one from Braun. They heard one gunshot. After half an hour, the opened the door and found two dead bodies. Only Hitler had blood on him, Braun appeared to have taken cyanide.

That explains soooooooo much!
Incidentally, much like his father, Hitler also had an inappropriate relationship with his own niece.

I don't know if it was an order per say, but I read it in R. L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of Adolf Hitler. What I read was, "the guards expected to hear two gunshots, one from the Führer and one from Braun. They heard one gunshot. After half an hour, the opened the door and found two dead bodies. Only Hitler had blood on him, Braun appeared to have taken cyanide.

Funnily enough I'm reading Shirer's book on the Third Reich at the moment. However I doubt any of those present knew what was on Hitler's mind and were probably guessing what form the suicide would take. He did after all waver between bouts of delusional optimism and deep depression during the final days and change his mind on a number of occasions. His main concerns were with ensuring the effectiveness of the methods he had chosen and the disposal of the bodies afterwards.

Have you seen the movie, Der Untergang (The collapse/fall)? It's a movie about Hitler's last days. It's based on Shirer's book. It was made by Konstantin films. Another little-known fact about the 3. Reich's last days was that, after the Allies destroyed all the airstrips in Germany, they attempted to take off vertical take-off craft, which were bell-shaped. In the 1980's, numerous reports came out of Pennsylvania of a bell-shaped craft suspected to be part of the US Air Force's research on vertical craft.

The Germans also had a wing-shaped aircraft for stealth. After WWII, the first UFO's were reported. They were crescent shaped, and were like a flying wing. They are believed to be a prototype of the stealth bomber in existence today.

In conclusion: 3. Reich = UFO's

Have you seen the movie, Der Untergang (The collapse/fall)? It's a movie about Hitler's last days. It's based on Shirer's book. It was made by Konstantin films. Another little-known fact about the 3. Reich's last days was that, after the Allies destroyed all the airstrips in Germany, they attempted to take off vertical take-off craft, which were bell-shaped. In the 1980's, numerous reports came out of Pennsylvania of a bell-shaped craft suspected to be part of the US Air Force's research on vertical craft.

The Germans also had a wing-shaped aircraft for stealth. After WWII, the first UFO's were reported. They were crescent shaped, and were like a flying wing. They are believed to be a prototype of the stealth bomber in existence today.

In conclusion: 3. Reich = UFO's
In English, that film is known as Downfall.

The Nazis poured a lot of money into vertical take-off craft, at the expense of jet and flying wing technology. Goering was the instigator in this waste of resources, as the flying wing was obviously far more useful to Germany in wartime than nascent vertical take-off craft. Both the US and USSR captured materials related to this research though, which means the odds of many post-war UFO sightings being based on such technology is reasonably high. It should also be noted that Canada was once the pre-eminent nation in vertical take-off technology. Their craft were even saucer-shaped.

But I must beg to differ on the first UFos being reported after WWII. Foo fighters wree reported by both sides during the war, and there are cases of unidentified "airships" in the 19th century. If one wants to go back to before manned flight, you can see UFO sightings in much of the ancient world that were likely meterological phenomena.

You're right, and my Grandpa (founder of the Ancient Astronaut Society) would agree. I meant to say, the craze of UFO's got started. (Project Blue Book, etc.) How do you think Peru got so awesome?

Who here knows about the book, Kon-Tiki? For those who don't, it's an interesting theory about the origins of the Polynesians: Peru! :banana: I don't know if it's a historical "fact" or not, because it is a tried and tested theory, and the Inca have quipus telling about this, but many archeologists, botanists (he argued about origins of plant life on Easter Island), and other experts disagree with the theory. I you want, you can read it. The author is Thor Hayerdahl

You're right, and my Grandpa (founder of the Ancient Astronaut Society) would agree. I meant to say, the craze of UFO's got started. (Project Blue Book, etc.) How do you think Peru got so awesome?
My god. I want to murder your grandfather.

Who here knows about the book, Kon-Tiki? For those who don't, it's an interesting theory about the origins of the Polynesians: Peru! :banana: I don't know if it's a historical "fact" or not, because it is a tried and tested theory, and the Inca have quipus telling about this, but many archeologists, botanists (he argued about origins of plant life on Easter Island), and other experts disagree with the theory. I you want, you can read it. The author is Thor Hayerdahl
I've read Kon-Tiki. Heyerdahl is something of a badarse (and officially so (http://badassoftheweek.com/heyerdahl.html)) but the theory of Polynesians originating in Peru, or elsewhere in the Americas, simply doesn't hold water. They're closely related to Malays and Southern Chinese, and their own history shows a migration from West to East, not the opposite.

Now, there is some evidence of Easter Islanders having made it to Peru at some point - their famous statues, and apparent similarities genetically - and there was definitely a limited interaction between the New World and Old before Columbus; Phoenician and Roman shipwrecks in Brazil and Nicaragua, Chinese jade in central America, the American sweet potato in Hawaii, etc.. But this was almost certainly isolated - a ship gets caught in a storm and lands in the wrong continent, a cyclone deposits plant-life a considerable distance from its origin point, etc. - and there is no evidence of an extensive trading relationship between the continents, something Heyerdahl mentions in one of his books. I give him credit for thinking outside the square, but he tended to leap to conclusions based on little evidence.

I think we can debate the theories of Kon-Tiki for hours. I've also read Aku-Aku. I'm not trying to endorse Heyerdahl, just so y'all know. My grandparents met him. They also met Eric von Däniken, the author of Chariots of the Gods. His theories I don't quite agree with, and even my grandpa gets tired of him. He appeared on the History Channel a couple of times.

Why would you want to murder my grandpa? You're jealous or don't like his theories?

I think we can debate the theories of Kon-Tiki for hours. I've also read Aku-Aku. I'm not trying to endorse Heyerdahl, just so y'all know. My grandparents met him. They also met Eric von Däniken, the author of Chariots of the Gods. His theories I don't quite agree with, and even my grandpa gets tired of him. He appeared on the History Channel a couple of times.

Why would you want to murder my grandpa? You're jealous or don't like his theories?
I hate the Ancient Astronaut theories and anyone who supports them. I'm glad to hear you don't agree with von Daniken, who is the second most unscholarly - after Gavin Menzies - author I've ever come across. I met von Daniken's friend Andrew Tomas, an Australian Ancient Astronaut theorist, once. Charming sob, I'll give him that. Almost had me wanting to agree with him on everything he aid, despite his offering no evidence.

That's the problem: they use "logic." In IB science, logic must be as such: If...,then...,because....In these theories, they say, If...,then....and leave out the "because." I never said I fully agreed with my grandpa (my dad doesn't) but I don't throw it out. If solid evidence of that comes out, then I may change my view.

Here's a fact: Did you know that a criminal in Russia was pardoned because the Czarina misplaced a comma. Instead of writing, "Pardon impossible, send to Siberia," she wrote, "Pardon, impossible send to Siberia." I got this from Ripley's Believe It or Not! 2006.

That's the problem: they use "logic." In IB science, logic must be as such: If...,then...,because....In these theories, they say, If...,then....and leave out the "because." I never said I fully agreed with my grandpa (my dad doesn't) but I don't throw it out. If solid evidence of that comes out, then I may change my view.
I also don't throw it out. Carl Sagan inadvertently encouraged von Daniken and Tomas by admitting the possibility himself while the two were working on their own books. But a simple slice of Occam's Razor shows the unlikelihood of their theories, and why we shouldn't bother with them unless we stumble across a big bronze spaceship underneath the Pyramids or something.

Here's a fact: Did you know that a criminal in Russia was pardoned because the Czarina misplaced a comma. Instead of writing, "Pardon impossible, send to Siberia," she wrote, "Pardon, impossible send to Siberia." I got this from Ripley's Believe It or Not! 2006.
I think I heard that on the Ripley's television show.

Here's an ironic fact: General Douglas MacArthur was promoted to full general on the same day he ordered the retreat from Luzon in WWII.

There was also some contact across the Bering Straits, but not much. Australia had some small contact with people in Timor and New Guinea, too.

There was also some contact across the Bering Straits, but not much. Australia had some small contact with people in Timor and New Guinea, too.
Some Australian Aborigines in the Northern Territory had a small trading relationship with Malayan traders from the Indonesian island of Sulawesi. They came to Australian waters to fish for trepang to sell to China, and would often stay with and even intermarry with the locals. Some Aborigines went back to Sulawesi with them also.

Eskimoes live on both sides of the Bering Strait, so there was definitely some contact there.

Primitive globalization XD

The Germans also had a wing-shaped aircraft for stealth. After WWII, the first UFO's were reported. They were crescent shaped, and were like a flying wing. They are believed to be a prototype of the stealth bomber in existence today.

In conclusion: 3. Reich = UFO's

:yup:

Iron Sky - There are Nazis on the Moon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4DW1uvsAE) (movie trailer)

Taken from Wikipedia, accuracy of which is not verified: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_I_of_Austria)
As the revolutionaries of 1848 were marching on the [Habsburg] palace, [Emperor Ferdinand I of Austria] is supposed to have asked Metternich for an explanation. When Metternich answered that they were making a revolution, Ferdinand is supposed to have said “But are they allowed to do that?”

Taken from Wikipedia, accuracy of which is not verified: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_I_of_Austria)
:lmao:

This probably inspired Ghent's "Oh. Can they do that?" question in Timothy Zahn' The Last Command, in response to an Imperial attack on Coruscant.

The funny thing about the Nazi-Ufo theories is that they usually exaggerate the extent to which the Germans actually managed to develop most of the craft. The Horten flying wings got a good deal further than most but even that never went into full scale production. Like many a Nazi wonder weapon they looked great on paper but either never made it into production or had only a minimal effect on the war.

Generally speaking I've found that online and in print the Nazi wonder weapons get much better publicity than the Allied ones. I find that a weird fact since by and large the Allies had plenty of their own special designs which generally worked. They could also better afford to waste production facilities chasing unusual designs and ideas than the Nazis.

God, this "Bill" isn't one of those guys who thinks that Australian and American English are different languages, rather than dialects, is he? Because I HATE those people.

It really gets on my tits when people say that Scots English is it's own language,

It really gets on my tits when people say that Scots English is it's own language,
(underlining mine)

Colloquial language fail.

I thought you were a dude?

It really gets on my tits when people say that Scots English is it's own language,
Weeel, having had run-ins with "Scots", I've often found that working out the meaning by comparing it to English often works less well than comparing it to Swedish.

The funny thing about the Nazi-Ufo theories is that they usually exaggerate the extent to which the Germans actually managed to develop most of the craft. The Horten flying wings got a good deal further than most but even that never went into full scale production. Like many a Nazi wonder weapon they looked great on paper but either never made it into production or had only a minimal effect on the war.

Generally speaking I've found that online and in print the Nazi wonder weapons get much better publicity than the Allied ones. I find that a weird fact since by and large the Allies had plenty of their own special designs which generally worked. They could also better afford to waste production facilities chasing unusual designs and ideas than the Nazis.

The reason the Nazi wonder weapons are widely known is that, as the losers, it's opening a door to an alternate reality where they might have won. Since that would be a possibility if they had built these, people tell us about them.

I've just found some fun historical fact.

On Yahoo answer, some asked

'does someone know Myrilin Dyalas?"

Follows several answers, explaining it was a woman living in the XVI° century who founded the female Order of the Rose to protect women from the abuse of the male.
There is even a biography in French, and a short description of the status of the order.

Now, why do I find this very funny? Can you guess?

I've read Kon-Tiki. Heyerdahl is something of a badarse (and officially so) but the theory of Polynesians originating in Peru, or elsewhere in the Americas, simply doesn't hold water. They're closely related to Malays and Southern Chinese, and their own history shows a migration from West to East, not the opposite.

Partially correct. Polynesians don't have much genetically similar to say Han Chinese but there is some genetic similarity with Taiwanese Aboriginals who represent a wholly different genetic group to the more recent additions on the mainland. Otherwise Polynesians are kinda genetically unique, we have similarities with some existent groups but there isn't much tying us to any living population on the mainland or in the archipelago. Obviously Polynesians on the mainland of China with a residual population with some genetic linkages in Taiwan but there isn't to my mind a satisfactory explanation for where exactly Polynesians as a people came from. In any case the whole Peru theory was thoroughly discredited long before it was floated for more reasons than the one you've cited :p

Now, there is some evidence of Easter Islanders having made it to Peru at some point - their famous statues, and apparent similarities genetically - and there was definitely a limited interaction between the New World and Old before Columbus; Phoenician and Roman shipwrecks in Brazil and Nicaragua, Chinese jade in central America, the American sweet potato in Hawaii, etc.. But this was almost certainly isolated - a ship gets caught in a storm and lands in the wrong continent, a cyclone deposits plant-life a considerable distance from its origin point, etc. - and there is no evidence of an extensive trading relationship between the continents, something Heyerdahl mentions in one of his books. I give him credit for thinking outside the square, but he tended to leap to conclusions based on little evidence.

What? There is no evidence that the Easter Island statues have anything to do with South America at all. Easter Island was only settled between 400-800AD. The last time I checked the usual suspects for transmission of the knowledge for statue construction the Olmecs had finished as a civilization around 800 years before the earliest possible date for settlement. That's ignoring the fact that other Polynesian islands have similar art-forms, albeit not quite on that scale or in that specific medium. The genetic links have also been thoroughly debunked, they were the ghosts of earlier ethnic Peruvian sealers and traders. They may have reached Peru and inadvertently introduced the chicken it appears, but the area they landed was the back of nowhere and it's unlikely they stayed. They remain Polynesians in every sense of the word, just slightly bizarre examples, then again I challenge people here to tell me what a Polynesian looks like there is huge diversity in looks between the island chains.

I think we can debate the theories of Kon-Tiki for hours.

No, we can't. It isn't worth the effort to debunk something which is so obviously wrong.

Australia had some small contact with people in Timor and New Guinea, too.

I've never heard anything about Timor as a point of contact with Australia. Never. It's also disingenuous to say 'Australia had contract with New Guinea' for the following reasons (1) there was no such thing as Australia or New Guinea, (2) the actual point of contact is not part of the Australian continent and is in reality a chain of islands, (3) the contact didn't occur between 'Aboriginals' and 'Papuans' but occurred between a group which is a mix of the two and in any case that isn't really all that important they didn't organize themselves by such abstract measures and were content to see themselves as a bunch of fractious tribal and familial groupings who did not get along and (5) finally can people stop applying glaringly obvious anachronisms to history? I can put up with unintentional Euro-centrism and Oikoumene-centrism and do put up with both of those on a daily basis in my chosen field but sitters like that should not get through.

Some Australian Aborigines in the Northern Territory had a small trading relationship with Malayan traders from the Indonesian island of Sulawesi. They came to Australian waters to fish for trepang to sell to China, and would often stay with and even intermarry with the locals. Some Aborigines went back to Sulawesi with them also.

The Larrakia and Tiwi were the only two groups with contact to the Makkaserites. There was some intermarriage and some cross-cultural linkages but it seems to have been purely business in nature.

The reason the Nazi wonder weapons are widely known is that, as the losers, it's opening a door to an alternate reality where they might have won. Since that would be a possibility if they had built these, people tell us about them.

They would never have won just because they managed to build 20 flying wings and a few experimental VTO aircraft. At best they would have been an interesting footnote before they were either shot down, crashed or their bases overrun.

Besides you could make as many alternative reality scenarios out of how the war would have gone if say the Allies failed to develop Enigma or the Atom Bomb as you can for the Nazis developing some pet project. Just imagine for example if the RAF had shown more interest in Whittle's ideas for a new engine and managed to find the funding to develop it in 1929 rather than 1937.

Its sadly a theme which is reflected throughout history. People tend to prefer to listen to how Napoleon could have won Waterloo rather than how we might have been killed at Arcola. Its more popular to talk about how the South could have won at Gettysburg than how the North might have won the war quicker by counter-attacking at Gettysburg on the third day.

The common theme tends to be that people think the change would make a difference when that is rarely the case. Fresh from the field of Waterloo Napoleon would still be facing off against a large Austro-Russian army making its way inexorably towards France. Defeating Meade's army would hardly help Lee to threaten Washington with its massive ring of fortresses. Similarly many of the Nazi wonder weapons were badly thought out and those that were likely to be effective often proved difficult to build in sufficient numbers whilst the Reich crumbled to pieces.

Take the type XXI submarines, a revolutionary design but out of more than a hundred that were built only four were rated as ready for combat by the end of the war due to the design and construction problems. Only two of those four went on operational patrols and sank precisely zero allied ships (although each claimed to have simulated an attack but not carried it through due to receiving news of Germany's surrender).

There are ways in which the war could have been won in one form or another by the Nazis but too many of the "wonder weapons" were often nothing more than a way to delude the people that Hitler still had one last ace up his sleeve.

They make interesting documentaries though. :)

Its more popular to talk about how the South could have won at Gettysburg than how the North might have won the war quicker by counter-attacking at Gettysburg on the third day.
Especially when Gettysburg going the other way has such interesting consequences...that I may or may not have explored in somewhat clumsy fashion some time ago...:mischief:

You clumsy... surely not? :D

Partially correct. Polynesians don't have much genetically similar to say Han Chinese but there is some genetic similarity with Taiwanese Aboriginals who represent a wholly different genetic group to the more recent additions on the mainland. Otherwise Polynesians are kinda genetically unique, we have similarities with some existent groups but there isn't much tying us to any living population on the mainland or in the archipelago. Obviously Polynesians on the mainland of China with a residual population with some genetic linkages in Taiwan but there isn't to my mind a satisfactory explanation for where exactly Polynesians as a people came from. In any case the whole Peru theory was thoroughly discredited long before it was floated for more reasons than the one you've cited :p
I meant people who lived in Southern China once, but don't anymore. My sources are probably old, but they stated that the accepted theory was that the Polynesians originated in Southern China, but migrated through the Philippines into the Pacific. Those that were left behind either assimilated into the Han, or ended up in Taiwan.

What? There is no evidence that the Easter Island statues have anything to do with South America at all. Easter Island was only settled between 400-800AD. The last time I checked the usual suspects for transmission of the knowledge for statue construction the Olmecs had finished as a civilization around 800 years before the earliest possible date for settlement. That's ignoring the fact that other Polynesian islands have similar art-forms, albeit not quite on that scale or in that specific medium. The genetic links have also been thoroughly debunked, they were the ghosts of earlier ethnic Peruvian sealers and traders. They may have reached Peru and inadvertently introduced the chicken it appears, but the area they landed was the back of nowhere and it's unlikely they stayed. They remain Polynesians in every sense of the word, just slightly bizarre examples, then again I challenge people here to tell me what a Polynesian looks like there is huge diversity in looks between the island chains.
That was more to head off the inevitable "but what about the statues?" argument than anything else. I know they have nothing to do with South America, though I was actually thinking of Tihuanaco, not the Olmecs, as the common example of similarities.

I said "apparent" because the examples I saw were of skeletal structure and what-not, prior to DNA-testing becoming widespread. Obviously that's since been debunked.

As for what Polynesians look like, that's simple: fat and tattooed.

The Larrakia and Tiwi were the only two groups with contact to the Makkaserites. There was some intermarriage and some cross-cultural linkages but it seems to have been purely business in nature.
What about the Yolngu, or whatever they're called (going by memory here)? Or are those groups sub-groups of Yolngu or something?

No, we can't. It isn't worth the effort to debunk something which is so obviously wrong.
Why is it "obviously" wrong?
I'm sorry because I've only read Heyerdahl and none of his critics...but while he may indeed be wrong, it is not obvious. Not for me at least...

Incidentally, much like his father, Hitler also had an inappropriate relationship with his own niece.
Tsk Tsk! I've come to expect better from you Baal.

That story was started by the Strasser brothers, who are, shall we say, a slightly biased in this matter.

Why is it "obviously" wrong?
I'm sorry because I've only read Heyerdahl and none of his critics...but while he may indeed be wrong, it is not obvious. Not for me at least...
The evidence clearly indicates that Heyerdahl, while a badarse, was wrong. The Polynesians bear no relation to Native Americans, but are related to some East Asians, teir own legends mention them coming from the West, and the species and materials they introduced to their lands are from the Old World, not the New. While a limited amount of accidental and haphazard contact with the New World is possible, Heyerdahl's theories are completely false.

Tsk Tsk! I've come to expect better from you Baal.

That story was started by the Strasser brothers, who are, shall we say, a slightly biased in this matter.
I saw it in a documentary, it must be true!

Why is it "obviously" wrong?
I'm sorry because I've only read Heyerdahl and none of his critics...but while he may indeed be wrong, it is not obvious. Not for me at least...

More or less what Lord Baal said, with another caveat, his theory was never the dominant scholarly opinion and never challenged that opinion, which held that Polynesians had originally come from Asia. It was obviously wrong or at least immensely suspect for that reason alone even ignoring the mass of evidence to the contrary including for instance radio-carbon dating, archeological finds which sustained a west to east route and a the oral traditions of the people themselves (Easter Island was the exception to the rule and why it was understood to be the rule is beyond me).

The evidence clearly indicates that Heyerdahl, while a badarse, was wrong. The Polynesians bear no relation to Native Americans, but are related to some East Asians, teir own legends mention them coming from the West, and the species and materials they introduced to their lands are from the Old World, not the New. While a limited amount of accidental and haphazard contact with the New World is possible, Heyerdahl's theories are completely false.

Ah, but they have legends of a king coming from the East called Kon-Tiki. The Inca have a legend of a king leaving to the ocean named Conticci. There is a plant on Easter Island that only grows in one other place in the world: Lake Titicaca in Peru/Bolivia. The similarities between the "arrival" vessels and the "departure" vessels in both cultures is strikingly similar.

Ah, but they have legends of a king coming from the East called Kon-Tiki. The Inca have a legend of a king leaving to the ocean named Conticci. There is a plant on Easter Island that only grows in one other place in the world: Lake Titicaca in Peru/Bolivia. The similarities between the "arrival" vessels and the "departure" vessels in both cultures is strikingly similar.
Yeah, I mean, Heyerdahl didn't just pull his theory out from his bad arse (pardon me).
And while I understood his theories were far from mainstream among contemporary historians, the main objection was that such voyage would not have been technically possible - which he elegantly debunked.

It was a long while ago I last read Ra, Kon-Tiki & Aku-Aku though...:sad:

Tsk Tsk! I've come to expect better from you Baal.

That story was started by the Strasser brothers, who are, shall we say, a slightly biased in this matter.

The Strasser's might have been biased in the matter but there may well have been some foundation to the rumours even if the more lurid details were probably fanciful. They did live together after all and Hitler was highly possessive of her. If there was nothing to it it seems strange that Shirer repeats the claim in his work on the Third Reich.

Ah, but they have legends of a king coming from the East called Kon-Tiki. The Inca have a legend of a king leaving to the ocean named Conticci. There is a plant on Easter Island that only grows in one other place in the world: Lake Titicaca in Peru/Bolivia. The similarities between the "arrival" vessels and the "departure" vessels in both cultures is strikingly similar.
Somewhat dubious, as the people of Easter Island have never had a king. Also, Peru's Quetzalcoatl-type god-king was not named Conticci, but something starting with a 'V' - at least, in whatever language the Incas used. It's also possible to date when he left, due to pictures left by the pre-Inca cultures, and it was after the Rapanui reached Easter Island.

Those same Easter Islanders almost certainly did make it to Peru - as Masada said, they appear to have inadvertenlty introduced the chicken - no-one is disputing that. It's Heyerdahl's thesis that they originally came from Peru that is clearly and obviously false.

The theory that a journey would have been technically impossible was never the main objection, it was simply inflated by Heyerdahl to make it seem the main objection, so when he disproved it it made him look like he was right. Classic strawman argument. There were numerous other, far better objections, which Heyerdahl never addressed.

The Strasser's might have been biased in the matter but there may well have been some foundation to the rumours even if the more lurid details were probably fanciful. They did live together after all and Hitler was highly possessive of her.
Well obviously. But two counter points:
1) The fact that Hitler lived with her and was possessive of her doesn't seem to be much in the way of evidence. I mean, it is not in and of itself that unusual.
and
2) The Strasser brothers, like many of the Nazis were first class mud slingers. If they accused him of having sex with a cousin he saw very occasionally, the story wouldn't stick, if you're going to accuse someone of having sex with someone, you obviously pick people who are close.

If there was nothing to it it seems strange that Shirer repeats the claim in his work on the Third Reich.
Not really. Shirer found Strasser reliable for some reason. I don't know why. Shirer seems to enjoy spicing up his books a bit, and while he does it without ignoring the truth, he stretches it to fit when he needs to.
If there was something to it, it seems strange that no one repeats the claim of Strasser. I mean, if the worlds most famous man had sex with his niece you'd think SOMEONE would have access to the knowledge other then the Strassers. Especially since they themselves were not in a position to know, and they'd have to hear about it from someone in the first place.

(underlining mine)

Colloquial language fail.

I thought you were a dude?

How is it "colloquial language fail?"

I am a dude.

Some Australian Aborigines in the Northern Territory had a small trading relationship with Malayan traders from the Indonesian island of Sulawesi. They came to Australian waters to fish for trepang to sell to China, and would often stay with and even intermarry with the locals. Some Aborigines went back to Sulawesi with them also.

Eskimoes live on both sides of the Bering Strait, so there was definitely some contact there.

Apologies. I was thinking of the Sulawesi traders crossing the Timor Sea and got the two islands confused.

How is it "colloquial language fail?"

I am a dude.
Use of the word "tits" as if you had some. Clearly means something a little different in your part of the world.

I know this is probably not so interesting for people that are not directly involved with music, but still...

Johann Sebastian Bach, Domenico Scarlatti and Georg Friedrich Händel were all born in the same year (1685). They are considered (by some) the three most important baroque composers ever to have lived! :) I personally find it a really cool coincidence.

Bach lived the shortest life (dying in 1750), followed by Scarlatti (1757), while Händel was the most longevive (1759 - you have to consider that in that time, living up to the age of 74 was not particularly common, although not unheard of).

Bach, who wrote the sexiest music in history, had 20 kids.

Coincidence? I think not.

Bach, who wrote the sexiest music in history, had 20 kids.

Coincidence? I think not.

As the joke goes, his organ had no stops.

Use of the word "tits" as if you had some. Clearly means something a little different in your part of the world.

Talking about something "getting on your tits" is a common expression in Britain (well, in parts of Britain anyway), and is non-gender-specific.

Bach, who wrote the sexiest music in history, had 20 kids.

You have clearly never listened to Blind Willie McTell.

The fact that Hitler lived with her and was possessive of her doesn't seem to be much in the way of evidence. I mean, it is not in and of itself that unusual.

Well that depends on what is being proven really. There's a big difference between thinking that Hitler's relationship with his neice was inappropriate and believing the lurid tales put about by Strasser about the sexual deviancy of his political rival. The original claim after all wasn't that he slept with her but merely that the relationship was inappropriate. Even though many around them didn't know how intimate they were and Geli's friend denied such a claim that doesn't mean that the details we can be reasonably sure of aren't frankly quite disturbing.

The Strasser brothers, like many of the Nazis were first class mud slingers. If they accused him of having sex with a cousin he saw very occasionally, the story wouldn't stick, if you're going to accuse someone of having sex with someone, you obviously pick people who are close.

That argument would hold up better if the early Nazi ranks didn't contain the types of unsavoury characters that make someone who slept with his neice look like a saint. It probably would have caused a bigger ripple for it to be discovered that Hitler shot Raubl than slept with her.

Not really. Shirer found Strasser reliable for some reason. I don't know why. Shirer seems to enjoy spicing up his books a bit, and while he does it without ignoring the truth, he stretches it to fit when he needs to.
If there was something to it, it seems strange that no one repeats the claim of Strasser. I mean, if the worlds most famous man had sex with his niece you'd think SOMEONE would have access to the knowledge other then the Strassers. Especially since they themselves were not in a position to know, and they'd have to hear about it from someone in the first place.

I don't find Shirer's work that lurid, then again I've not read more than a third of the book yet so who knows. To his credit I don't recall him stating the more lurid rumours about Raubl and Hitler as fact though. I've not read Kershaw yet to know what he has to say on the matter and I suspect Ron Hansen's book would be the best to shed some light on it.

Its worth noting by the way that one man who did possibly know something about the issue - Father Bernhard Stempfle - was bumped off in the Night of the Long Knives. Also the argument that no-one coming forward other than Strasser isn't as strong as it seems. After all those close enough to Hitler at the time to be aware of the nature of the relationship were usually close, high ranking party comrades or friends. With the exception of Strasser they're hardly a type prone to repeating malicious gossip about him are they?

The "Diplomatic Revolution" prior to the Seven Years' War, in which the Anglo-Austrian alliance against the Franco-Prussian alliance collapsed in favor of an Anglo-Prussian versus Bourbon-Habsburg war, happened largely for two reasons: one, Frederick II was unsatisfied with France's military ventures during the War of Austrian Succession; and two, Frederick had a fallout with Voltaire, and when the latter returned to France, he told Madame de Pompadour that Frederick was a misogynist homosexual.

Amusing how things work out.

That argument would hold up better if the early Nazi ranks didn't contain the types of unsavoury characters that make someone who slept with his neice look like a saint. It probably would have caused a bigger ripple for it to be discovered that Hitler shot Raubl than slept with her.
But we've found collaborative evidence of those. In fact, I consider that the strength of the argument against it: If we know Goebbels was sleeping with Czech actresses, Rohm was talking about murdering Goerings wife, and Streicher was doing every every godawful thing imaginable, and find solid backing for these things, it seems odd that this story has so little.

I don't find Shirer's work that lurid, then again I've not read more than a third of the book yet so who knows. To his credit I don't recall him stating the more lurid rumours about Raubl and Hitler as fact though.
I didn't say Shirer was Lurid, that's not quite what I meant. The problem is Shirer can't resist the temptation to be a good writer, and put something in a way to intrigue the reader, where a stuffier man (such as myself) wouldn't give it as much credit. To give an example, he makes it sound like only by a very slim margin did France not fall to Fascism in 1934, which is certainly not true, but if you're going to give the play by play of a street battle, it helps if the reader doesn't know that the actual street battle was of no consequence.
I've not read Kershaw yet to know what he has to say on the matter and I suspect Ron Hansen's book would be the best to shed some light on it.
It's been a good while since I read Kershaw, but I suspect that he'd be skeptical of it too. His Book was essentially one very, very long rebuttal of all the half-substantiated claims flouting about.

After all those close enough to Hitler at the time to be aware of the nature of the relationship were usually close, high ranking party comrades or friends. With the exception of Strasser they're hardly a type prone to repeating malicious gossip about him are they?
Oh quite a few of them were. We forget that with a man like Hitler, it wasn't just important people who he associated with. Even before he was in power, he was followed almost everywhere by his driver, his photographer, his bodyguards, various hangers-on etc. etc. and most of them have been very useful in filling in gaps of our historical understanding. That's not even getting into the girl's circle of relations. And if they weren't prone to gossiping about it, I really have to wonder how it got to Strasser of all people. I mean, if you had to draw up a list of "People who you should not say embarrassing things about Der Fuhrer to" Strasser would be somewhere in the top ten probably.
In fact, another instance I can find striking is that Speer never mentioned it. I don't even think he knew the rumor existed. He was probably the most emotionally close man to Hitler during this period, and though his books aren't as much a "tell all" as he claimed, he certainly wasn't above pointing out the faults in others to absolve himself.

The "Diplomatic Revolution" prior to the Seven Years' War, in which the Anglo-Austrian alliance against the Franco-Prussian alliance collapsed in favor of an Anglo-Prussian versus Bourbon-Habsburg war, happened largely for two reasons: one, Frederick II was unsatisfied with France's military ventures during the War of Austrian Succession; and two, Frederick had a fallout with Voltaire, and when the latter returned to France, he told Madame de Pompadour that Frederick was a misogynist homosexual.

Amusing how things work out.
Wellllllllll not quite. :p But it is amusing that you put things that way.

I see the point you are making but since I never argued that Hitler was sleeping with his neice so its a moot argument for me, unless that is you are saying that the relationship wasn't inappropriate at all.

As an aside though as far as I know Speer didn't meet Hitler until the Nuremburg rallies, well over a year after Raubl died so would have had no first hand knowledge of the events. The only way he would have known was if Hitler or one of those close to Hitler had spoken about the relationship afterwards.

I see the point you are making but since I never argued that Hitler was sleeping with his neice so its a moot argument for me, unless that is you are saying that the relationship wasn't inappropriate at all.
I think "inappropriate" is something for each person to decide. I think the "Hitler slept with his niece" thing is a load of bunk.

As an aside though as far as I know Speer didn't meet Hitler until the Nuremburg rallies, well over a year after Raubl died so would have had no first hand knowledge of the events. The only way he would have known was if Hitler or one of those close to Hitler had spoken about the relationship afterwards.
...shoot, now I'm gonna have to reread the Speer biography.

As an aside I've been re-reading the relevant section of Shirer's book on PDF tonight (I've been going through it slowly on audiobook up until now which is difficult to backtrack on) and it mentions some interesting things. Without typing out the whole of the relevant section its worth mentioning that he does cite sources other than Strasser such as Heiden (what sources Heiden had I don't know since I don't have his book). He also talks about talking personally to early party comrades of Hitler who told him that marriage seemed inevitable. He doesn't mention who these are but I'm inclined to believe that there was some form of serious relationship betwen Geli and Hitler, but I agree that there's not enough evidence to take the claims of them having sex as being anything more than bunk.

Nazi Germany was a different time and culture but personally I find the relationship inappropriate. Where I live (the UK) its actually illegal to marry your niece, and the thought of marrying or being in a serious relationship with one of mine repulses me.

I have to say I think that "inappropriate" is a very weaselly word in this sort of context. Does it mean morally wrong? If so, why not just say that? If not, what does it mean? "Inappropriate" seems to be a way of expressing censure without actually saying anything. And surely when we're talking about Hitler there's no need to mince words!

I have to say I think that "inappropriate" is a very weaselly word in this sort of context. Does it mean morally wrong? If so, why not just say that? If not, what does it mean? "Inappropriate" seems to be a way of expressing censure without actually saying anything. And surely when we're talking about Hitler there's no need to mince words!
I used inappropriate because I don't know much about it, other than that it was supposedly, ahem, inappropriate. Don't know about the other guys.

I have to say I think that "inappropriate" is a very weaselly word in this sort of context. Does it mean morally wrong? If so, why not just say that? If not, what does it mean? "Inappropriate" seems to be a way of expressing censure without actually saying anything. And surely when we're talking about Hitler there's no need to mince words!

I thought I expressed my opinion on the matter quite clearly in my last post actually given that I stated that I found the thought of marrying or carrying on a serious relationship with any of my nieces repulsive. By extension therefore if Hitler's relationship with Raubal had progressed to that point (and I'd argue that there was sufficient evidence to suspect that it may well of) then yes, I find it repulsive as well.

I merely used the term "innapropriate" since it was how Lord Baal referred to it and this represented the alternative to suggestions such as Strasser's which went into some rather graphic and fanciful details about the sexual nature of the relationship.

I think this belongs here:
http://www.musitek.com/Public/Charles_II_Inbreeding.jpg

Much like the Pharaonic Egyptians, actually...

Weren't they also basically required to marry siblings?

Weren't they also basically required to marry siblings?
No. More than a few of the Ptolemaioi did, but they usually suffered sharp criticism for it. Ptolemaios Philadelphos, the one who sort of started the practice by marrying his sister Arsinoe, got it with both barrels from the local poet Sotades (verses like "You are pushing the prong into an unholy fleshpot"). So he had his admiral Patroklos (!) hunt him down and drown him in a lead coffin.