I've always wanted to play vs 7 humans, but the only possible way seems to be an e-mail game. I'm looking for players who:

1) Are at the Monarch - Emperor level
2) Are willing to continue playing to the modern era, even if they are the worst in the game
3) Can play at least 4-5 turns per day, so that we can actually finish the damn game some time. But are also patient enough to wait for someone who unexpectedly can't play for a day or two.
4) Are willing to patch their game if a new patch comes out while we play, so that we can all continue with the same rules

If I can't get 7 more human players, the game will be cancelled. The purpose here is to make the world a huge mess :D

As a Greek, I'll take the Greeks.

My e-mail: micmic1431968@hotmail.com

i would like to join your game..

all the rules are acceptable..

i am starting one up my self soon, so expect to see it up shortly.

you can never have too many games going at once!


the pikey.

I claim the celts.

salts_pikey - Celts
Arrogant - Greeks

I will play. I like random.

greeneclan@mchsi.com

DogBoy, I think that choosing "random" in 1.12 freezes the game. I'll choose for you when everyone else decides, I'll make it random enough :)


DogBoy - ?
salts_pikey - Celts
Arrogant - Greeks

Hi!
I´d like to sign in, but I´m only available between 5-6.30 GMT in the morning and from 16.00-22.30 GMT in the evening.
From my expirience with PBEM´s:
Don´t expect too much. With 8 humans in the game a full turn per day will be a great result. I´m currently in 2 games with so many players and the average time is at the moment 2-3 days for a full turn :( . If you want a fast paced game, up to 4 humans is great. If they´re from the same time zone 4-5 turns is possible a day (or you need players who are able to make their turn at work -> I´m not, sitting just face to face with my boss :( ).

If you want me to participate, I´ll take the Sumerians.

And please: If we´re able to find enough players, find a member you trust and handle all the passwords to him so that we can replace any players who are suddenly "unavailable". I´ve expirienced this already in some games (including one I´ve started myself here, we´ve made 7 turns in 3 months!!).

4 players would be good with me. quicker turns :goodjob:

LouisWu, nice suggestion about the passwords. I understand it will be difficult to make several turns per day, but at least we can try :)


LouisWu - Sumerians
DogBoy - ?
salts_pikey - Celts
Arrogant - Greeks

Originally posted by salts_pikey
4 players would be good with me. quicker turns :goodjob:

I guess you're right, but I'd like to live the complexity of 8 humans for once! I've never played such a game!

E-mail:
warrenlynch (at) gmx (dot) de

Im in. I'll take the Carthaginians. As im in europe as well as Louis Wu, might be a good idea to put me next to him int eh turn order.

A rather complex idea about the passwords: When we start, each player can choose a 15-letter word as password. He will break this password in 3 pieces of 5 letters each, and will send each piece to 2 other players. For example, Player1 chooses "extracurricular". He will send "extra" to Player2 and Player3, "curri" to Player4 and Player5, and "cular" to Player6 and Player7. So, we can easily reconstruct a password should there need arise. What do you think ?

I didn't know that being random causes the game to freeze, so make me Mayan.

In my experience with PBEM games, it's best to set us up in an order that we can play. That way when one guy plays and sends it to the next guy, he can play and send it, etc... That way someone doesn't get the turn while they are sleeping and not play their turn until they get home the next night. Just a suggestion. I can take a turn at 5:00 am Eastern time, and 6:00-11:00 pm Eastern time.

DogBoy, nice idea. Perhaps we should arrange the order based on when we can play.

I can play 7-12 & 18-23 GMT
DogBoy can play at 10 & 23-4 GMT (if I did the conversion right)


Apricorn - Carthagenians
LouisWu - Sumerians
DogBoy - Mayans
salts_pikey - Celts
Arrogant - Greeks

I would love to play in thos one, however, as someone else pointed out, 4-5 turns a day is nearly impossible even with just 4 players (i'm in a game of 4 where we managed 11 turns in 3 days one weekend and that was with us keeping the game moving pretty steady)

I'm available between 6pm and midnight central time, which i think is midnight & 6 AM GMT, and can concentrate more one the game between 10 & midnight when kids are in bed so if others have similar availability you might want to put me after them.

I'll take the Inca, predesad@yahoo.com

All times GMT


predesad - Inca - 24-6
Apricorn - Carthagenians - ?
LouisWu - Sumerians - ?
DogBoy - Maya - 10 & 23-4
salts_pikey - Celts - ?
Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23



2 more to go :)

my suggestion about the password thing is to find someone outside the game to hold all passwords, and possibly even volunteer to be a substitute if someone is unexplainably gone for a couple days

Oh what the hell. I still don't think an 8 player game will go anywhere approaching more than a turn every 2 days, but I hope I am proved wrong!

Incans for me. I can play 8 to midnight Pacific Standard Time, and throughout the day (Pacific Standard Time) from work...barring any ugly, long meetings! :)


Rubberjello@yahoo.com


I sure hope I don't end up as neighbors with LouisWu! *hehehe*

Rubberjello, I'm afraid you are a little late for the popular Inca :D
I'll assume that "throughout the day" means that you can play from 8am to 12pm PST ?

All times GMT


Rubberjello - ? -
predesad - Inca - 24-6
Apricorn - Carthagenians - ?
LouisWu - Sumerians - ?
DogBoy - Maya - 10 & 23-4
salts_pikey - Celts - ?
Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23

Yep. Pretty much throughout the day.

Oopsie. Bad me. That's what I get for posting hurridly between meetings at work! I saw someone take the Mayans, but assumed that both Incans and Mayans were not taken.


I'll take the Aztecs in order to get a New World Civ balance! (If the last person or the AI is the Iros)

6 - 12 midnight GMT is best for me, as I am in the UK.

you may want to put me next to the other players who are GMT as per 'Wu's suggestion.

unfortunatly I dont have the luxury of playing at work!

The Pikey

A first attempt at a playing order, subject to change when Apricorn & LouisWu submit the hours they can play. What do you think ?

All times GMT


Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23
salts_pikey - Celts - 18-24
Apricorn - Carthagenians - ?
LouisWu - Sumerians - ?
predesad - Inca - 0-6
Rubberjello - Aztecs - 0-8 & 16-24
DogBoy - Maya - 0-4, 10 & 23-24


Shall we all patch to 1.13 while we are waiting for the last player ?

I can play between 19:00 and 23:30 weekdays, anytime weekends.

Also please post your game preferences. Here's mine:

World size: Standard
Barbarian activity: Roaming
Land mass: Random
Water coverage: Random
Climate: Random
Temperature: Random
Age: 4 Billion
Difficulty: Monarch

Apricorn, don't spoil my integers with 23:30 :D

All times GMT


Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23
salts_pikey - Celts - 18-24
Apricorn - Carthagenians - 19-23
LouisWu - Sumerians - ?
predesad - Inca - 0-6
Rubberjello - Aztecs - 0-8 & 16-24
DogBoy - Maya - 0-4, 10 & 23-24


*Patch to 1.13*

Further suggestions:

1) No negotiations with another civ before you meet on the map. After that, you are free to use all your trickery in achieving your goals.

2) Anyone who can't play for more than 36 hours after the previous player dispatched the e-mail, is expected to notify the rest of us. After the 36 hours we can substitute him.

We need one more player! :ninja:

Those settings look good to me. I like random as you never know what you are going to get.

Errr.... I've heard a report that 1.13 has a major bug in it. (Lux deals disappear?) We might want to check that out.
Everything else sounds good!

the settings are fine with me.

patch 1.13 is dodgy, shall we stick with 1.12?

Originally posted by LouisWu
Hi!
I´d like to sign in, but I´m only available between 5-6.30 GMT in the morning and from 16.00-22.30 GMT in the evening.


I love to quote myself. :D

What do you think about the order ? Players in Europe & America are grouped together (America: P4,P5,P6 - Europe: P7,P1,P2,P3)

All times GMT


Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23
salts_pikey - Celts - 18-24
Apricorn - Carthagenians - 19-23
predesad - Inca - 0-6
Rubberjello - Aztecs - 0-8 & 16-24
DogBoy - Maya - 0-4, 10 & 23-24
LouisWu - Sumerians - 5-6 & 16-22


I'm clueless, about the password issue. I don't know anyone who would guarantee that he can play a game if after eg 2 months a player quits. And what if the password holder dissapears or if he can't play at the time ?

What do you say about the password splitting idea ? If we have a problem we can find another player when the problem arises.

Do you all agree to stick with 1.12 ? Is there a discussion somewhere about the problems in 1.13 ?

Apricorn, I need your e-mail.

1 seat is still free! :rolleyes:

Me, I'll play! :D

Done! Post the civ you want and the hours you can play

Ottomans please - I haven't played or even met them before :) I can mostly play 3 PM - 2 AM GMT (on and off) ..

Doh! The "duck" destroyed our new world vs old world matchup!
(Just kidding)

In terms of the password thing, I vote we just ask a long time PBEMer who everyone trusts (Aggie or Wildfire?) to just keep a list of the passwords. (we each email ours to them after the first round) I wouldn't want them obligated to fill in when someone is unavailable, but at least if someone drops completely we won't be stuck.

Hey Rubber, I didn't think of that, lemme go look for another, just trying to find something I haven't played before :)

Ok, I looked, how about Persia?

Originally posted by Rubberjello

In terms of the password thing, I vote we just ask a long time PBEMer who everyone trusts (Aggie or Wildfire?) to just keep a list of the passwords.

I agree. The alternative is far too complicated.

Final order, let me know if there's a problem with this:

All times GMT


Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23
salts_pikey - Celts - 18-24
Apricorn - Carthagenians - 19-23
ironduck - Persia - 0-2 & 15-24
predesad - Inca - 0-6
Rubberjello - Aztecs - 0-8 & 16-24
DogBoy - Maya - 0-4, 10 & 23-24
LouisWu - Sumerians - 5-6 & 16-22


ironduck, I need your e-mail.

Ok, Rubberjello, can you contact a PBEMer of your choice about the passwords ?

Do you all agree to stick with 1.12 ? I don't see any threads about serious bugs though...

If you all reply in 24 hours, I'm ready to start it. I'll send the game to salts_pikey and my password to the person chosen by Rubberjello. May the force be with the best (who's me, of course :D)

My email is gonzo at newmail dot dk (please don't write it the regular way here - spam robots are trawling)

Which map size and world are we playing?

Here's what I proposed:

Originally posted by Arrogant
World size: Standard
Barbarian activity: Roaming
Land mass: Random
Water coverage: Random
Climate: Random
Temperature: Random
Age: 4 Billion
Difficulty: Monarch

I've asked Aggie via PM. Hopefully he will answer fairly soon. I was thinking we could just PM our Passwords rather than email, keeping this a "Civfanatics" thing only.

Everything looks good to me, i prefer raging barbarians, but would also prefer just to start rather than having a conversation about whether to change the setting

You and your raging barbies ;)

i find that at times the barbarians have better strategy / planning ability than the AI civs

But you can't talk sense to them :( .. it would be really neat if they could evolve into a civ of sorts given enough time..

Everything looks fine. :)
Let´s start the game. :thumbsup:

Are we going with 1.12 or 1.13 then?
If 1.13 is bug free I vote we go with that as it deals with the corruption issues.
If it does have bugs can someone point me to the thread where these are discussed?

If Aggie replies in time, I should be able to start it at about 20:00 GMT. I guess salts_pikey will give the OK this afternoon, so the only one we're waiting for is DogBoy.

Meanwhile, let me know whether you want any modification in these fields:

Name:
Country Name:
Noun:
Adj:
Title:

Otherwise I'll use everyone's nickname as Name, with the defaults in the other fields.

Aggie says it's fine by him.

Just click on this link to PM him ( think this will work!) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=10090)


*Copy of PM follows*

Aggie
PBEM-er



Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2487
Re: Could I (we) ask a favor of you?


That's OK! I think that I will around long enough for that

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rubberjello wrote on Jan 08, 2004 04:14 AM:
Since you are such a long-time fixture in the PBEM circuit, We were wondering if you could be the "repository" of the passwords for this game in case someone quits. I was thinking everyone could PM their password to you after the first turn and then you could consolidate them in a saved message. Hopefully, that will be all that will be required, but if we get a drop or a replacement we may trouble you to PM the required password out to someone again?


8-way PBEM thread (Arrogant's game)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________________
SG's: RBC6 - Scrappy Scientific Sumerians (Demigod), RBC7 - Austrian Fascists C3C Patch 1.12
PBEM's: My spoiler threads

Originally posted by Apricorn
Are we going with 1.12 or 1.13 then?
If 1.13 is bug free I vote we go with that as it deals with the corruption issues.
If it does have bugs can someone point me to the thread where these are discussed?

The only thing I could find is the following dialog between BretP and Padma, in the "Beta Patch 1.13 Released" thread:


Originally posted by BretP
Has anyone noticed a dramatic drop in the number of resources with the new pathces. I just finished a large pangea map with 60% water, and only saw 5 horses and 6 iron. The others were very limited too. I just started a second game and noticed the same thing.

Originally posted by Padma
This has been confirmed in private as an unintended side effect of the new terrain features. They are looking into it.


However, from the above dialogue I tend to conclude that this problem is also present in 1.12.

salts_pikey and Rubberjello expressed some concerns about 1.13. Personally I'd prefer 1.13 since corruption unpredictability in 1.12 gets on my nerves.

So, we actually seem to have a tie. If someone knows something positive, it would help us to decide. Otherwise, just let the other 4 players chime in and vote.

Originally posted by Rubberjello
Aggie says it's fine by him.

Great, so at about 20:00 I'll set it up, pm my password to Aggie, and e-mail the game along with everyone's e-mail address to salts_pikey. Let's all forward to the next player the e-mail addresses together with our first savegame.

I hope that by then (9 hours from now) we will have decided on the patch version.

About the patch:
I've only heard a rumor. I hate to be a rumor-monger, especially since then I've been looking at the Conquests forum and there has been no mention of it. I assumed Carlos MM got his information from Apolyton site??? I would have thought something this big would have been confirmed by now by someone else?

I vote we go for 1.13 unless something turns up in the Conquests forums in the next few hours. I don't know this Carlos dude and he could have just had "Don't renegotiate deals" option on.

He wrote:

"oh, and a word of warning about 1.13: I have discovered a bad bug (done lux deals just disapear) - no idea what is affected, only PBEMs or SP games, too - maybe you wait a day or two before you decide!!!!!"

in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73878&pagenumber=2)

i vote for 1.12.

otherwise everything is good.

i am happy to start when you guys are

I didn't know you were waiting on me. I have answered all the questions that have been asked on this thread. In fact, since I'm off work, I have kept this thread open and checked it every hour or so. All the settings look fine to me. Just need to know if we are going with 1.2 or 1.3.

Originally posted by DogBoy
I didn't know you were waiting on me. I have answered all the questions that have been asked on this thread. In fact, since I'm off work, I have kept this thread open and checked it every hour or so. All the settings look fine to me.

Not waiting, just a final check to make sure nobody found a new girlfriend or something :D

Originally posted by DogBoy
Just need to know if we are going with 1.2 or 1.3

Why don't you vote, read the previous posts for (admittedly insufficient) details on the pros and cons of each version.

How do these patches affect PBEMs? When running several games, they all need to be upgraded at the same time, right? It seems like an unpredictable mess if different PBEMs are running with different versions of the game..

I'm a little wary about 1.13 since it hasn't been released on the official site, but I'm completely in the dark how the transition between patches is done when running multiple PBEMs.

Since (AFAIK), you can transfer games even from vanilla Civ to Conquests (with the necessary intermediate of PTW), I would guess there is absolutely no problem with the transition.

One can always revert to the previous patch by uninstalling the latest version. Just make sure you have preserved your last save.

Meanwhile, PBEM games go on for a loooooong time. There are probably going to be several patches (beta or not) while we play this game. Are we going to stick with an old patch until the game finishes (which could be a year from now) ?

But to speed things up, I'll count your vote as one for the 1.12. Since Rubberjello has apparently reformed, we are now 3 for 1.13 vs 2 for 1.12.

I was more thinking in terms of not being able to play 1.12 games when I have installed 1.13 without having to uninstall the patch, play the round, reinstall again, play a round in another pbem, etc etc.. that's the kind of craziness I referred to ;)

Since I'm new at PBEMs I'm not voting one way or another since I don't know standard procedure for these things.. it would make sense if all PBEMs always updated to the latest patch, but I was wary since it seems to have been leaked rather than released.

Originally posted by ironduck
Since I'm new at PBEMs I'm not voting one way or another since I don't know standard procedure for these things.. it would make sense if all PBEMs always updated to the latest patch, but I was wary since it seems to have been leaked rather than released.

I understand your concern, however I interpret the same fact in another way: If they had to release a patch so urgently, doesn't this mean that the problem addressed was indeed serious enough to spoil the game ?

Besides, looking at the changes I see that they have exclusively dealt with the corruption issue. It's not like a huge patch were new bugs are possible to creep in.

I think bugs creep in at any and all given times :D

Given that these are all beta patches it doesn't make sense to me that they would feel a need to leak new patches in between the in-betweens.. it only creates more confusion - not least online with people asking for a multitude of differently patched games :crazyeye:

Let's just start playing. I am quite sure the versions are interchangeable at this point, as I've been playing several PBEMs with some people on Vanilla C3C and some on 1.12 with no ill effects. The differences 1.12 and 1.13 won't become apparant until we have at least 3-5 cities, which means we'll have several weeks of no worries and we'll see if anyone else has discovered any bugs by then. Sound good?

Originally posted by Rubberjello
Let's just start playing. I am quite sure the versions are interchangeable at this point, as I've been playing several PBEMs with some people on Vanilla C3C and some on 1.12 with no ill effects. The differences 1.12 and 1.13 won't become apparant until we have at least 3-5 cities, which means we'll have several weeks of no worries and we'll see if anyone else has discovered any bugs by then. Sound good?

I guess it's fine. So, whoever wants to, may install 1.13 while the others will stay on 1.12.

This means you have 3 hours left to ask for any modifications in the following fields:

Name:
Country Name:
Noun:
Adj:
Title:

I also assume that I'll leave victory conditions to the default.

If they're interchangeable there is no problem :)

King ironduck of the persians sounds good to me ;)

In case you missed it, here's what Tavis posted in this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74648) thread:

FIRAXIS: v1.13 and Patch Information

This was a patch that was released to a few people to review and IS NOT an official patch release. If you do download it, YOU MUST INSTALL V1.12 FIRST!

To prevent too much confusion regarding the patches, the next one will not be released until the end of next week. It will be a full Beta patch (as opposed to v1.13 which is just an update) and include all of the required files.

PLEASE NOTE: v1.13 has an altered corruption calculation so dont be surprised if it feels very different.

A full non-Beta patch version will be released at the end of February.

So I guess our starting version won't make any difference since we all will soon be playing with an official beta anyway.

I have played my first and most decisive move, e-mailed the game to salts_pikey and PMed my password to Aggie.

Good luck everyone! (especially me :rolleyes: )

Originally posted by Arrogant
I have played my first and most decisive move,

Gee... I hope he resigned honorably! :lol:
We have not specified how we want to keep this thing moving in case of email snaffus. I recommend everybody do a reply to the sender of the game each turn acknowledging receipt. It is the sender's responsibility to make sure it was delivered to the next person by resending it after 24 hours and maybe posting the fact to this thread. As soon as you get an acknowledgement (reply), then it's out of your hands, and you don't need to keep track of things till it comes around to you again.

Originally posted by Rubberjello
I recommend everybody do a reply to the sender of the game each turn acknowledging receipt. It is the sender's responsibility to make sure it was delivered to the next person by resending it after 24 hours and maybe posting the fact to this thread. As soon as you get an acknowledgement (reply), then it's out of your hands, and you don't need to keep track of things till it comes around to you again.

Good idea. I guess though that if I play and e-mail the game to the next player as soon as I get the save from the previous one, no confirmation is necessary. Shall we say that we should send the confirmation if we don't intend to play immediately after we receive the game ?

I honestly can't remember when I receive confirmations, I find it easier to just ask my next in line whether they got the game if there has been an unusual delay.. but if the person sending to me wants me to send confirmations of receipt I'll try to remember doing so.

A reminder of the order. In bold, the player who has the ball

4000BC


Arrogant - Greeks - 7-12 & 18-23
salts_pikey - Celts - 18-24
Apricorn - Carthage - 19-23
ironduck - Persia - 0-2 & 15-24
predesad - Inca - 0-6
Rubberjello - Aztecs - 0-8 & 16-24
DogBoy - Maya - 0-4, 10 & 23-24
LouisWu - Sumeria - 5-6 & 16-22


All times GMT

Ummm... Isn't this game supposed to be moving with reasonable speed?

We agreed to play quickly when we signed up to this one, otherwise there is no way an 8-player game will work out.

Still haven't gotten my first turn and I'm only #4.

Well, salts_pikey can only play from 18-24 GMT, so we will know in a few hours. When I sent the game yesterday it was around 21:00 GMT, but hey, let's relax, the 24 hours period hasn't expired yet and most likely he couldn't play yesterday.

You can punish him in the game :D

Right, I'll calm down, sorry :D

Just to let everyone know, Salts Pikey sent me the turn this morning (I saw it on webmail) and I will be playing it as soon as I get home from work which should be around 1900-1930 GMT.
Ironduck, be ready to play the turn shortly after then :)

I forgot to mention: my times are for working days. At the weekend availability usually 6-22 GMT.

Turn sent to Ironduck.

The Carthaginians herald the beginning of a new age with the founding of the soon to be mighty city of Carthage. Out of the Wilderness will be born a great empire...

Played and sent :)

Funny, the sequence here is ironduck-predesad-rubberjello, exactly the same as we have in the other game..

Originally posted by ironduck
Funny, the sequence here is ironduck-predesad-rubberjello, exactly the same as we have in the other game..

The difference being of course that in the other game you actually have a chance of winning :D

Somehow I doubt it ;)

Originally posted by ironduck
Somehow I doubt it

Oh, I see... you don't have a chance in the other game either. Sad... :D

...you mean of actually having a chance of getting past turn 20?

Hopefully the pace will even out on this game soon.

Originally posted by Rubberjello
...you mean of actually having a chance of getting past turn 20?

Well, we are playing a REAL TIME strategy, don't we ? :D

can we just get everyone whos pmed their password to Aggie to confirm it here.


Ive sent mine to Aggie.

pmed password to Aggie
i also support emailing previous player or posting to let them know you got the save, even if you are playing it right away, its a courtesy so they dont have to worry whether you got it or not, w/ 8 players game could be lost very easily

ironduck-predesad-rubberjello

yes, i noticed that also

The difference being of course that in the other game you actually have a chance of winning

the problem is the three of us from that other game will be taking control of this game real soon :mad: :D

oh, and ironduck, about your impatience, be prepared for this game to move w-a-y s-l-o-w-e-r than the other one, there's no way this one could keep up w/ our pace, too many players

I just pm'ed my password to Aggie.

Hey predesad, I like that - a carryover alliance :D

Looking at the time table it looks like one turn a day at best..

Played and past on to Dogboy.
PM d Password to Aggie.

Alliance? It all depends on where we start out, hey?

Originally posted by predesad
i also support emailing previous player or posting to let them know you got the save, even if you are playing it right away, its a courtesy so they dont have to worry whether you got it or not, w/ 8 players game could be lost very easily

But as we saw earlier, what happens usually is that the next player doesn't check his e-mail frequently enough, not that he gets the game and doesn't play it. salts_pikey had sent the game to Apricorn in the morning but he didn't see it until afternoon. And I sent the game to salts_pikey last night, but he probably didn't check his mail until this morning.

What we need is an e-mail to SMS / SMS to e-mail gateway :D

What we need is a fully featured hand-held civ playing device, like a cellphone or something :D

Some people have been asking for this (http://www.cliesource.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5147&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) for a long time...

Game has been sent to LouisWu. I was shocked to see that nobody settled on the first turn. At least I don't think they did because nobody had scores when I got the save.

Scores are delayed a turn. When you get the game next turn, everyone's scores as of the first turn show up.

the point about emailing a confirmation is that if i send my save to rubberjello & he acknowledges via email / post that he got it then i know on my end the game has moved. if 2 days go by and i still dont get a save i dont have to go ask rubberjello if he got my save

however, if 24 hours go by & rubberjello does not acknowledge he got the save, then i automatically know i probably need to check w/ him instead of just sitting there wondering / waiting until a week goes by and somebody says 'Where's the game?'

with this system, the game will move faster in cases of lost emails or a forgotten turn, i once completely forgot to send someone a turn & thought i had. im not saying it should be required, but it is a nice courtesy & could potentially make the game move faster

notice: this is just an example, i used rubberjello in the example because his turn is after mine

I was shocked to see that nobody settled on the first turn

the Inca are still a nomadic people, when we do decide to settle down and build our empire the rest of the world will shake w/ fear ... or laughter

Originally posted by ironduck
What we need is a fully featured hand-held civ playing device, like a cellphone or something :D

Im happy to send/receive sms texts for turn sent notification ( I can send free texts).
Did this in a 2 player SMAC PBEM game a while back and it saved a lot of time wasting, knowing exactly when to play the turn.

Yuo cant send SMS across the atlantic though.

PM to Aggie just send.

Save sent around 7.00 h GMT to Arrogant.

[party]
We got through 1 turn! Woohoo!
:band:

Only 539 to go! ;)

Just woke up (yeah, I've been naughty last night), played and sent the game to salts_pikey at 11:30 GMT.

In case anyone wants to try SMSing me, my number is 00306945387812.

Turn sent to Arrogant. A full turn in about 13 1/2 hours. Fantastic :thumbsup:

On its way to salts_pikey at 01:00 GMT

Alright...who's holding this one up? Did someone go somewhere on the weekend? Don't you know you're not allowed to have a real life when you are a Civ addict?
:lol:

Hasn't arrived with me yet..

i havent seen it since ... well since the last time i sent it to rubberjello, what's that been like four or five weeks ago :confused:

Would you suggest to drop the player who's been delaying this ? I don't know who he is, but if we have such delay in the beginning it can only go worse later.

Well Salts Pikey hasnt sent the turn to me yet, so it must be with him.
Im off work today too so could have played a turn at any time.

Uhmm....ignorant question here. How do you drop someone in a PBEM? Is there anyway to let the AI takeover? Or else get the password from Aggie, open up their turn, and then resign?
Anyways, Did salts-pikey acknowledge he got the game? If not, send it to him again. It might be an email problem such as accidentally being sent to a spam folder or something.

I sent it again just in case. Although it seems to me he quit, he hasn't even replied to the thread about the game he created.

Since we are in the beginning, I was thinking of finding another player and have Aggie pm salts_pikey's password to him.

Originally posted by Arrogant

Since we are in the beginning, I was thinking of finding another player and have Aggie pm salts_pikey's password to him.

Assuming he actually pmed the password to Aggie.
The other game im in with him has also been held up so seems hes gone awol. Id give it another day before any action is taken though.

Originally posted by Apricorn


Assuming he actually pmed the password to Aggie.
The other game im in with him has also been held up so seems hes gone awol. Id give it another day before any action is taken though.

Ok then, in about 20 hours we'll start looking for a substitute.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

It's still the 1st turn and already we have a man down!! :(
What hope is there?!!! :eek:
The Inca are very distraught. :(

Originally posted by predesad
It's still the 1st turn and already we have a man down!!

Well, did you expect the puny Celts to fare any better than this ? :D

I just thought - maybe we could ask a 3rd person (Aggie maybe) to play his next turn. After all, at this stage its just going to be a matter of pressing enter anyway, with no warriors, and assuming hes already built his city, theres nothing else to do.
Then if hes still not showed up by the time the next turn comes around, we get a replacement.
If he didnt actually tell Aggie his password, we are screwed anyway and might as well restart the game.

Originally posted by Apricorn
If he didnt actually tell Aggie his password, we are screwed anyway and might as well restart the game.

When you start a PBEM you also enter an administrative password (I did). I think that perhaps I could use this somehow to kick a player out. I'll have to dig into it.

Yes, as the admin, you entered an admin password. Just have whoever sent him the turn, send you the turn instead. When it asks for his password, type in your password instead. You can retire his civ. I don't want to restart this game.

OK then as Arrogant normally send the turn to salts pikey, he should alreadyt have it. Can I suggest that instead of retiring Salts Pikey, you just press enter to end the turn, trying not to see his position. Id still like to give him some more time before booting him out. Then, if theres still no sign of him by the time the next turn comes around, retire him.

Guess what, salts_pikey didn't even have a password. How can I explain that ? :confused:

Anyway, I just ended his turn and sent it to Apricorn. In the next turn I'll retire the Celts.

Sweet! Hopefully the game will get rolling now. Since Arrogant and Apricot just posted, the game should be with Ironduck. Maybe I will see my turn tonight:)

No game here yet, but I'm keeping an eye out for it

Originally posted by DogBoy
Since Arrogant and Apricot just posted

Apricot?! :mad:

;)

Actually I cant play the turn until about 1900 gmt tonight, Im at work at the moment and have internet access but not civ access!

:king: Apricot of Carthage :)

Good news that the game is still on.

Ol' pikey must have really hated his start position!
(But hey! Mine is no great shakes either. ) :(

Apricorn, my profuse apologies:eek: My wife was hollering for me to come and do something and I was typing my post as fast as I could. I didn't edit my work. If it's any consolation, I won't complain when you kill off my civ.

DugBuy of the Mayans:crazyeye:

Originally posted by Rubberjello
Ol' pikey must have really hated his start position!

But you get to enter a password before you see your starting position :rolleyes:

Originally posted by DogBoy
Apricorn, my profuse apologies:eek: My wife was hollering for me to come and do something and I was typing my post as fast as I could.

No Problem.
I fully understand the state of panic and confusion that can be caused by a wife's hollering!

Just glad you didnt mis-spell Ironduck's name :eek:

ROFL, I have seen my name misspelt on more than one occassion, and somehow I think it was always on purpose :D

Btw, if you don't enter a password when prompted on your first turn then you will not be asked again as far as I understand. So it should be quite possible to play without a password..

Originally posted by ironduck
Btw, if you don't enter a password when prompted on your first turn then you will not be asked again as far as I understand. So it should be quite possible to play without a password..

Are you saying we should search for another player ? No problem with me...

There would be no harm in playing his turn for at least 10 turns or so and see if ANYONE IS WELCOME TO JUMP IN

If no one voluteers by then, then that position should resign.

Turn sent to Ironduck

Carthage = Worlds number one city :D :king:

Apricorn, I sent you a mail earlier to let you know you sent the wrong turn :) (you sent your own turn to me). Still waiting for my turn..

sorry, correct file now sent.

sent along, game's running again :)

Originally posted by ironduck
Apricorn, I sent you a mail earlier to let you know you sent the wrong turn :) (you sent your own turn to me). Still waiting for my turn..

Gee. Like I've never done that! :rolleyes: (I have)
Good job in getting the game going again Peppercorn and Ironluck!

- Blubberyellow

;)

-> file sent to Arrogant :thumbsup:

Great and Most Wise King Predesad has managed to calm the Inca people down and assure them should the rightful ruler of the Celts ever return to claim his throe will will hunt him down and annihilate him for causing this tragic delay in world history.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

:goodjob: glad the game is back up & running. hope he returns or we get a replacement, who's going to take his turns in the meantime? :confused:

It looks like we've got ourselves a replacement! purvisxiii has agreed to lead the Celts. While we are waiting for his e-mail and available times, I have already played my turn and the Celts' turn (like before, nothing to do since a settler was working) and sent the save to Apricorn at 08:00 GMT.

FYI, I'm already using 1.15

Great News, welcome to the fun, purvisxiii.

I will play my turn at around 1930 GMT tonight.

Well, apparently Salts Pikey is back on the scene as hes played the turn in our other game and sent his apologies for the delay. However, not heard anything from him with regards to this game.

purvisxiii has sent me his e-mail. I pm'ed him to ask about playing times. If he can play between me and Apricorn that's fine. Otherwise we're having a problem...

Meanwhile, I played my turn and the Celts' turn again, and sent the save to Apricorn at 10:30 GMT.

I'm confused, but why would it matter what time he can play? We can't change the play rotation of the game can we? I must not understand fully what you mean.

He means that if he cant play between Arrogant and me, it will hold up the turn by up to a full day each time so wed have to look for a different replacement.
Ive sent Salts pikey a PM by the way, asking him if he wasnts to continue in this game, seeing as hes back on the scene (but not posted here yet)

Ahh, makes perfect sense now!

Hmm.. interesting.. several chiefs from around the celtic realm are looking to grasp the throne! Intrigues! Drama!

:mad:

come on guys, ive not been getting the saves,

im still in but whats this about a replacement??

More drama!

Conspiracy theories!

Originally posted by salts_pikey
:mad: come on guys, ive not been getting the saves,
im still in but whats this about a replacement??

That's it? You disappear for a week and you come back angry? No apologies? :p
Here is a news flash:
We are the ones who are angry with you!

Teehee :D

Bring forth the infantry! Archers, ready to fire!

We don't need the archers. My scouts tell me their archers are miles away. Send in the Irish. Arrows cost money. The dead cost nothing.

The Irish?! :eek:

Let's not get get too hasty now..

It's a quote by King Edward the Longshanks from the movie Braveheart. But I'm sure you knew that already.

Yep, that's why I advocate restraint.. have you SEEN those Irish?! ;)

Originally posted by salts_pikey
come on guys, ive not been getting the saves,

You mean you had an e-mail problem ? Because you also disappeared from the other game too, and from the one you started yourself... and this forum, too. Since we had no notification, how long should we wait before we search for a replacement ??? Well, I guess you might have had an Internet access problem, but... why didn't you specify a password and send it to Aggie as we had agreed ?

And btw, Apricorn said that you reappeared in that other game two days ago. Why not here, too ?

Anyway, I guess it wouldn't hurt if salts_pikey continues to play. We are still in the beginning and we'll soon have an idea about how this goes.

..but if he causes delays again we'll unleash the Irish on him! :D

Great & Most Wise King Predesad has consulted w/ his advisors, the Inca say, 'Come on guys, give him a break. If ur in several games and other-than-civ-life happens and u dont get an email, it could b easy to forget about a game...' give me a second here ...

Queen Predestian has just pointed out to me that he did, however, make a comitment 2 the game and for not at least checking in w/ the forum he should b punished, the Inca will soon b on their way 2 burn down ur cities, sorry.

Played my turn and sent the save to salts_pikey at 07:30 GMT.

yeah sorry about the wait, but real life does sometimes take precidence.

Bring it on.

Bring on the micks....:lol:

cant wait to meet rubberjello in the game.:mad: CRUSH!

i need apricorns email so i can send him his turn.

I am writing this 15:41 GMT friday 16th...

salts_pikey,

We all realize that stuff happens. But it also seems pretty clear that you could at least have put in a note here - you just disappeared. We have 8 players, and if we all do this regularly this game will never happen, people will get so fed up with not knowing why the game has stalled for the umpteenth time with no word.

If you can't play for a while then put in a sub who will play your turns while you're gone - that's what I'll try to do at least.

Apricorn is: rgjp at ntlworld dot com

Still nothing recevied from Salts Pikey

Originally posted by salts_pikey
cant wait to meet rubberjello in the game.:mad: CRUSH!

Well, at this rate I'll be dead of old age by the time that happens! :)

Do you agree he's definitely out ? Shall I play again and send the game to Apricorn ?

ARGH! I usually get my turn at 1900 my time. I waited up until 0100 last night so I would'nt hold the game up. I get up this morning at 0800 and still no turn. Very frustrating.

chill out guys, i sent it this morning.

been a bit busy.

some of us have lives.

real people, jobs, girlfriends, stuff like that.

lighten up.

:lol:

Played and sent to salts_pikey at 19:45 GMT

Haven't received it yet..

Originally posted by ironduck
Haven't received it yet..

Would you venture an educated guess as to where it is stuck ?:D

Somewhere in the outer Hebrides? ;)

Ive not received the turn either which means Salts Pikey has it. Its only been 24 hours so no need to worry just yet.

I don't think anyone is worrying ;)

If people don't want to play the game, then they shouldn't bother signing up for it. Pretty simple really.

I agree, just trying to be diplomatic:king:

I think I'm past that stage considering the latest outburst from salts pikey :rolleyes:

I suggest finding a permanent replacement or simply retiring his civ.

We're moving again.
Just got the turn from Salts Pikey, played it and sent on to Ironduck.

Sent along :)

Sent to salts_pikey at 07:30 GMT

Ditto

i will have to drop out of this one.

too many real life commitments.


besides, we will be here next year trying to finish it.

really


cant

be

bothered


Have fun, and get out more.

We may have no lives, but we sure as hell know how to follow through on a commitment rather than flaking out! :p

My guess is he had a poor starting position and wasnt up to the challenge!
By the way Salts, I have a job (that keeps me out of the house for 12 hours a day), a girlfriend (fiancé) and a social life but I still have the common courtesy to let the people Im playing the game with know if Im not going to be able to play for a few days. It doesnt take much, nor does good manners. If I had to quit a game due to other commitments, Id do it a little more graciously too.

Id just like to quote Salts in the thread he started for the game he is setting up.

Originally posted by salts_pikey
I am looking to start up a game for up to 8 human players. Huge world, no holds barred full on battle.
2-4 moves a day, more if we can.


Are you sure Salts? :confused:

Anyway -
Lets get the replacement, and move on (a lot quicker now hopefully)

Arrogant, can you end Salt's turn and send it on to me please.
In the meantime what happened to the last replacement we had lined up?

The replacement didn't reply to my second question about the playing times, so.... I'll just bump that thread.

I played my turn and the Celts' turn and sent the save to Apricorn at 00:00 GMT

Originally posted by salts_pikey
i will have to drop out of this one.

I guess I wasn't overwhelmingly surprised :D

i am shocked, i cannot believe it, what a surprise, threw me 4 a loop!! allow me 2 compose myself

:crazyeye: :confused: :cry: :)

im ok now, my guess is that his keyboard's really old some of the letters are rubbed off & he couldn't find the b button to build a city

Don't you have a PBEM or two to send along? ;)

ummm, no, i think i forgot 2 notify u, but i sent turn 52 to rubberjello about 4hours ago, havent got anyhting since then

On its way to Apricorn at 07:30 GMT

Vancouver 2010 has expressed a desire to replace Salts Pikey in this game. (He initally expressed interest to replace salts in the Civ_elite game and Ive asked if he wanted to replace salts in this game too)
Ive just sent him a PM to check he can play the turn at the right time.

Actually, having sen Vancouver2010s available playing times on another thread, I dont think it fits with the available slot in this game (correct me if Im wrong)

Back to the drawing board!

We could just retire the Celts..

I thought that too, but it would be a shame for this epic 8 player game to turn into a 7 player game so early.

tr00 dat.

Originally posted by Apricorn
Actually, having sen Vancouver2010s available playing times on another thread, I dont think it fits with the available slot in this game (correct me if Im wrong)

Back to the drawing board!

You are quite right. I won't be able to replace salts_pikey, given the fact that I'm at GMT-8 and salts is at GMT.

Oh well. There's more fish in the sea -- or, in this case, more PBEMs in the forum.

Forget the time zone.. as you can see Arrogant sends it around 7:30 AM GMT, if you're around a bit after that then you would fit in great.. :)

Originally posted by ironduck
Forget the time zone.. as you can see Arrogant sends it around 7:30 AM GMT, if you're around a bit after that then you would fit in great.. :)

Certainly. It's 12 hours between me and Apricorn, can't you play 1 turn somewhere in that time frame ?

BTW, I haven't received my turn yet...

Unfortunately Vancouver's available times are 2330 - 0730 GMT so I dont think it would work.

Hope we find a replacement soon. Lets keep bumping the replacement thread.

In case the turn does get to me today, I wont be able to play it until tomorrow (saturday) morning as Im going out straight after work tonight.

Sent to Apricorn at 15:30 GMT

Sent to Apricorn at 19:00 GMT. Meanwhile, the storm-tossed Celts are probably going to find a leader in RealGoober. We're waiting for him to upgrade from 1.00.

Doesn't anybody like the Celts??? Their UU is awesome, plus they are barbarians.

30 minutes ago we finished round 12.

That's over 18 days, but with salts pikey's interruptions subtracted we're steady at about 1 round per day.. probably as good as we can get it :)

Sent to RealGoober at 23:00 GMT

Welcome to the game, RealGoober!

Thanks, I have the game save and will play it when I get a chance . . .

Will send to Apricorn next . . .

Got it, Played it, Sent it.

Hi RealGoober!
Great that you´re filling in for SaltsPikey. Good luck.:thumbsup:

BTW: Fantistic idea for the sig.

Thanks, I did not get the Game Save this morning. I have to go to school, so i can next play it by 4:00 my time (GMT-8).

Key Word is "filling in" I think.

Welcome, RealGoober.

There is no real hurry for the next turn. Predasad is going in for back surgery today. He says he'll be unavailable for 24 hours, but I think that is a bunch of furby. I remember when I had some back problems, and sitting in front of a computer was excruciatingly painful for quite a while.

I councel patience and best wishes for Predasad's spinal column!

(We can rip out his backbone later on in the game!)

:)

I concur :)

Sent to RealGoober at 18:00 GMT.

Best wishes for Predesad! Rest assured that you will be the last one I crush in the game. Greeks are sensitive and compassionate people :D

Originally posted by Rubberjello
Welcome, RealGoober.

There is no real hurry for the next turn. Predasad is going in for back surgery today. He says he'll be unavailable for 24 hours, but I think that is a bunch of furby. I remember when I had some back problems, and sitting in front of a computer was excruciatingly painful for quite a while.

I councel patience and best wishes for Predasad's spinal column!

(We can rip out his backbone later on in the game!)

:)

Thanks, Sorry, I did not know this. I don't mean to be impatient.

Looks to be a good game, except for the Celts starting position.

The Celts have a bad starting position? That could explain that other guy backing out ;)

Hang in there though, the Celts are a great civ.

Originally posted by ironduck
The Celts have a bad starting position? That could explain that other guy backing out ;)

Hang in there though, the Celts are a great civ.

Actually, it is not that bad os a starting position, I have a couple wheat/cattle around my capital, which shall make that into a Settler Pump. Unfortunately, I have Jungle to the South, Marsh to the North, and Desert in between. I shall explore, however, and I certainly will not quit, I have seen many, many worse starting positions. (Pure Jungle . . . )

I agree with RealGoober. Salts_Pikey didn't quit because it was a bad starting position, he quit because of real life matters. (No, I haven't seen the Celts starting position). In another PBEM game in which Salts_Pikey started, he doesn't even play that one! He started a thread and after we got 8 people, he never started the game. So after a general consesus was taken, one of us started it and only played with 7 people. But RealGoober was mistaken about one thing. His start position will not be his settler factory...it will become MY settler factory :devil2:

muhahahaha

Not if I have anything to say about it!!! First you have to wade through marsh, over desert, or across jungle to get to me. Then you must defeat the mighty defenders of [Insert name of Celtic Capital City here]!!!

Wow, I have neither wheat nor cattle, and I just spotted another civ a few tiles away..

Originally posted by ironduck
Wow, I have neither wheat nor cattle, and I just spotted another civ a few tiles away..

So long as that Civ is NOT a Light Green, I am happy.

*Note to self: Must make sure no neighbours anywhere near me*

I forget what size map we're playing on.. if it's standard there should be some room..

Wait a sec, you are saying that you ARE close by the the Celtic Civ?

*Starting to get slightly panicked . . . *

I don't like being close to players, particularily Human Players that are likely MUCH better then me . . . No Offense of course . . .

I'm not saying who I'm close to yet (I don't think my neighbour has seen me). It would suck to get taken out early in this game because it looks like it could be a lot of fun.

Well, I can't do anything about it until I get the Game Save.

*Note to Self - BUILD A MILITARY!!!*

Ya, I agree, being taken out THIS early would suck. Kill me later, when your military vastly outnumbers me. I believe we cannot negotiate out of game, however . . .

Actually I will not completely kill anyone (that is if I could) unless they piss me off (break deals or won't sue for peace). It's still fun to play the game even if you're left with just a single city and have to start over again..

Hey, that would make it a OCC (One City Challenge)!! I am not too concerned about people killing me, I am more concerned as to the number of workers I shall have to produce to clear the Jungle/Marsh . . .

But if you have nearby cattle and wheat you'll churn out those workers quickly.. I just got the save, so the game will pause here for now since I send to predesad.

Huh! I'm in the same shoes as lameduck. No cattle or wheat, and jungle pretty close by. Those Jag Warriors may "have" to take out a neighbor in order to survive! ;)

Oh no, I sense jealousy . . .

Well, I am gonna need a LOT of workers for that Jungle and Marsh.

I might as well Settle the Jungle, not as if my Citizens are gonna die that fast, right?

Hey flubberbelly, come meet my persian immortals :D

I'm not sure, but I think that by settling jungle you always have disease problems until hospitals even when you've cleared all the worker areas.. a bit annoying.

I think that when you clear the Jungle, the threat of Disease is cleared as well. I will just crank out a bunch of Workers, and all will be right again.

And are you sure your Immortals want to meet my Gallic Swordsmen?

Not yours, no - I was talking to blubberyellow up there in the thread ;)

Ah-ha, I see. Trying to confuse me, sheesh. And actually suceeding in confusing me, even worse . . . (j/k)

That's our plan, we're evil that way.

It's a good thing to have Hoplites in these dangerous times :p

Originally posted by Arrogant
It's a good thing to have Hoplites in these dangerous times :p

Yeah. Ol' Deadduck up there has to discover the tech, get a handy source of iron, and hook it up. His liver could dined upon by Jaguars by the time that happens! (if he is misfortunate enough to be close by).

VERY Dangerous Times. I think an Honour Guard of Gallic Swordsmen shall do (Assuming I get a convenient Source of Iron - very rare occurance)

I can crank out Archers though . . .

With 8 human players there's going to be quite the race to iron sources :)

Oh ya. At the rate we will likely go, Iron may be the Deciding Factor as to whom wins . . .

Iron schmrion. My javenlin throwers don't need iron. By the time any of you actually see any iron, most of your warriors and spearmen will by my slaves anyway. A lot of good that iron is going to do you :p

There is no real hurry for the next turn. Predasad is going in for back surgery today. He says he'll be unavailable for 24 hours, but I think that is a bunch of furby. I remember when I had some back problems, and sitting in front of a computer was excruciatingly painful for quite a while.

I councel patience and best wishes for Predasad's spinal column!

(We can rip out his backbone later on in the game!)

okay, blubberfellow, now that i have sent u a total of 3 turns in 2 different games, has that got u convinced?

btw, not really my back, my herniated disk was in my neck.

Respect goes to Predesad for bravely crawling out of his sick bed to play the turn :goodjob:
Unfortunately I wont be able to match that noble effort as Im off out tonight to a comedy club straight after work, so wont be able to play the turn until around 0900 GMT saturday morning

Sent to RealGoober at 11:00 GMT

Three :beer: for :king: predesad :D

thanx guys 4 all the encouragement & well wishes. i know some of u r dying 2 do more, & let me assure u, queen predestian & i r not above charity, feel free 2 send any & all donations, gold, techs, luxuries, resources, workers, and for the most generous of u, no we do not have 2 much pride, we will even accept cities.

Got it, Played it, Sent it. I also got a free tech (Warrior Code) from a Goody Hut!!!

Originally posted by predesad
queen predestian & i r not above charity, feel free 2 send any & all donations, gold, techs, luxuries, resources

Ok, I'll send my gifts. A few archers will bring them to you, please don't assume anything bad if you see several archers around your cities. My gifts are heavy, that's all.

Predestians - Hah, I can send you some Immortal love ;)

Goober - darn you, me wants goodies tooOOoo!

No, My Goodies. Not for you.

On a side note, if you have no Military units, you cannot get barbarians from goody huts. If you see exploring workers, they are NOT gifts, they are explorers . . .

Hmm... workers... come here little workers, come join our cities.. we have women to entertain you and lots of food to eat.. come little workers...

All your workers belong to me...courtesy of my Javelin Throwers. I have seen the borders on one civ, not saying who yet, and only have about 3 turns left to warrior code. I almost feel sorry for that civ since I know their starting tech is not bronze working.

Originally posted by Arrogant


Ok, I'll send my gifts. A few archers will bring them to you, please don't assume anything bad if you see several archers around your cities. My gifts are heavy, that's all.

oh, how nice, in addition 2 the gifts ur going 2 send us some units 4 easy battle experience, much appreciated

Trying to bride my Workers-turned-explorers, Sheesh. Somehow I would leanr to expect this from you guys.

..And while the other nations quarrelled amongst themselves, Carthage silently grew frmo strength to strength ;)

sure sign of insecurity:

bragging about score lead about 15 turns into the game ;)

He must have just gotten a couple of lucky hut pops...
Besides, from my experience in PBEM games thus far. The score leader simply has a bullseye painted on his back, as others would feel more obliged to band together against them! ;-)