I'm creating a scenario that includes the Jutland peninsula around the year 600 A.D. I have space for two "civs" in that area so

who should the 2 civs be?
what were their leader's names?
what names and locations could you suggest for 4 starting cities for each group?

Personally, I had gone for Danes in the north and Jutes in the south but I've been told, on good authority, that I shouldn't have civs called Jutland and Denmark, as the Jutes actually were the first to be called Danes.

I assumed that the "Danes" had migrated from somewhere around Sweden and merged or pushed out the native inhabitants of Jutland (I have just chose to called them "Jutlanders" because that's a nice generic name that you would give to inhabitants of Jutland). I guess my assumptions were tied in with the view that Jutes were a distinct people that among other things formed the kingdom of Kent in England.

I've always thought that the Jutes were a Germanic people, like the Angles and Saxons, fr the Holstein area, somewhat south of Denmark today, while the Danes were simply the Vikings in the Denmark area.

Originally posted by XIII
I've always thought that the Jutes were a Germanic people, like the Angles and Saxons, fr the Holstein area, somewhat south of Denmark today, while the Danes were simply the Vikings in the Denmark area.
thanks XIII . So does the term "Jute" have no connection with the geographical area of "Jutland"?

I have no idea really; you might want to wait for a more knowledgeable poster to come along. ;) I'm rather weak in European history... :ack:

Originally posted by XIII
I have no idea really; you might want to wait for a more knowledgeable poster to come along. ;) I'm rather weak in European history... :ack:

No problems, this period of history is very murky so I doubt anyone can claim much knowledge of it. I can't find any sources prior to 800AD which is when the "Vikings" hit the scene. There are some mentions in the Frankish chronicles of the "Dani" but nothing that helps me put two civs in my scenario.:confused:

Just had a search around - in the South you could consider Hedeby as a town for your scenario, and the Dannevirke (Danish Great Wall) might give also you some ideas. Leaders might be King Godfred or King Hemming.

Search on Google for those things, and others like
Jutland 800 AD
Hedeby Jutland

and the page http://www.asatru.de/hedeby.htm should give you some more ideas :)

The Jutes later became the Danes. Thats why you cant have them as two different civs.

Originally posted by XIII
I've always thought that the Jutes were a Germanic people, like the Angles and Saxons, fr the Holstein area, somewhat south of Denmark today, while the Danes were simply the Vikings in the Denmark area. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are germanic languages too.

The Danes was a Gothic-Germanic tribe that migrated from Scandia in Sweden in the third century AD. They displaced the Heruli or Erils from the island of Zealand and in the fourth century AD they subjugated the Germanic Jutes.

You can use the terms Harudes, Jutes and Angles for the inhabitants of Jutland. The Harudes would be located on the western coast of Jutland, Jutes would occupy the northern and the eastern coats, and the Angles would occupy southern Jutland. Varinians can also be used; these were also a southern tribe trading with the Senones.


Edit:

By 600 AD you should use small city-states instead of ‘tribes’. These trade-cities would be ruled by a big chief or a ‘king’.

You can have cities of Ribe and Hedeby represented. For the rulers, you can call the kings names like Sven, Godfred, Hemming, Knut etc.

By 600 AD the inhabitants of Jutland as well as Zealand were collectively known as Danes.


The Dannevirke fortifications was built between 737 – 1160 AD.

I misread the original post as 800 AD, sorry about that!

Originally posted by Cimbri
The Danes was a Gothic-Germanic tribe that migrated from Scandia in Sweden in the third century AD. They displaced the Heruli or Erils from the island of Zealand and in the fourth century AD they subjugated the Germanic Jutes.

You can use the terms Harudes, Jutes and Angles for the inhabitants of Jutland. The Harudes would be located on the western coast of Jutland, Jutes would occupy the northern and the eastern coats, and the Angles would occupy southern Jutland. Varinians can also be used; these were also a southern tribe trading with the Senones.


Edit:

By 600 AD you should use small city-states instead of ‘tribes’. These trade-cities would be ruled by a big chief or a ‘king’.

You can have cities of Ribe and Hedeby represented. For the rulers, you can call the kings names like Sven, Godfred, Hemming, Knut etc.

By 600 AD the inhabitants of Jutland as well as Zealand were collectively known as Danes.


The Dannevirke fortifications was built between 737 – 1160 AD.
thanks for the info Cimbri. That the "Danes" came from Sweden was what I had thought and there were "native" or "germanic" Jutes in Jutland- that was why I originally included both in my scenario. However, my timeframe was wrong because as you say, by 600AD all inhabitants of Jutland were collectively known as Danes. I've removed the Jutes from my scenario and gone with a single civ of "Danes". I've put more barbarian camps in Jutland to reflect the disunity that must have been around at this time.

I haven't gone down the route of creating city-states for playability reasons - the number of playable civs is 24 already. I have, however, configured a new government type to reflect the nature of "city-states" at a macro level. I call it "Tribal Confederacy" (I dislike the term city-states because there were no real cities in the dark ages and because it has connotations with Ancient Greece). The govnt. has the following characteristics:

*Prerequisite Tech: None
*Corruption: Communal (i.e. corruption is same in all city-states)
*Free Units: Town(5), Cities (0), metropolis(0)
*Rate Cap: 5 (capped at 50% so research is stifled)
*Work Rate: 2
*Assimilation: 4
*Draft: 2
*Police:2
*Rush Build: Forced Labour (no money in those days)
*War Wear: High (difficult to keep alliances among the different tribes).
*No tile penalties (better than Despotism in this respect).
*Forced resettlement: ON (to account for disgruntled tribal leaders who don't want to be part of your confederacy taking their people/warbands elsewhere).

I haven't play-tested it yet but it'll be interesting to see the results.