Okay, here we go, but, let me emphasize patience. We are still a long way off from getting the game started. We have to talk about settings and fairness and how best to make it easy for me to abuse the rest of u :D

Players: Predesad, Dogboy, Zurichuk, Apricorn

Our first point: MAP

With 8 civs (4 players, 2 civs per) a standard size map is my vote, i also prefer the standard settings continents, 70% water, temperate, 4billion, normal



Once we get the basics of the map figured out, how do we get our civs put on the map?

Are we just going to select civs, roll the dice and hope your two civs ain't halfway across the world?

Are we going to find someone to make a map & put allied civs close together?

And if they are close together, do we really want them to be next door neighbors?

Any ideas on these few starting issues?

Ok, here is my $.02
We can pick one of the pre-existing maps. The ones that come to my mind are Islands, Close Quarters, Early Combat, Plenty, and Quad-Damage. All of these maps are pretty much fair in the sense that we are equal distance apart from each other. You can find a neutral party to set up our starting locations, or that can be completely random. If we don't want to use a pre-existing map, then you can also have somebody set up a map for us with starting positions either close to one another, or make sure we are far apart so we will have to make an effort to link up with each other. Of course the resources may not be "fair" if we use a randomly generated map, but that's fine with me. Either way is fine with me. As for picking the civs, we could each pick our civs or go random.

So the bottom line is either a pre-made map or a randomly generated map. My vote is either way.

Whatever we do, a third party should set the game up for us with the starting positions either close by, or make sure everybody is far apart. My vote is either way.

Once we all decide on which way to go, then we can pick our civs.

Whoever sets up the game for us needs to make sure that everybody's two civs are in order. It would suck to send the game around in circles to play both civs. It would (obviously) go twice as fast if we each played our two civs before sending it to the next person.

As for the order of the turns, it should make sense timewise. I usually play 8:00-11:00 EST with is GMT-5.

i agree with most of what you said, having a third party set up starting locations would be the 'fair' way, but i dont always like to go w/ fair. civ isnt about fair, one thing about resources, might need to be redistributed after the mapmaker places starting locations. nobody needs to post their civ choices right now, because if we could keep our civ choices private fromthe mapmaker it might help him be unbiased, this might not be possible. will discuss more options for the map maker if / when the other guys give their thoughts, that is we decide to go w/ a mapmaker.

turn order was another issue i was going to discuss later, but since you brought it up, we have two options:

1) slower but more balanced: A, B, C, D, A, B, C, D

2) faster but less balanced: A, A, B, B, C, C, D, D

should vote on this, dogboy has chosen #2, i am undecided

Good point about the "fair" issue. I kinda like a randomly generated map. That way we will have to use our abilities and civ knowledge to fight/trade for resources if we don't have them. That's part of the game...much better than a cookie cutter layout.

I like the AABBCCDD much better. It will be unbalanced when "person A" goes to war as they will be able to mass both of their civs on "person B" before "person B" can retailate. But I think that will add some challenge to the game. Plus, it will make the game go faster. As for choosing our civs, I think it would be give if we PM the map maker our civ choices. That way no one will know what anyone else is until the game starts. Since I'm sure some of us will want the same civs, we should come up with a wish list such as with our top 8 civ choices. That way the map maker can give us our #3 and 4 choice is our #1 and 2 choice is already picked. I'm confident the map maker will be fair and distribute the civ choices.

dont totally like idea about civ choices because (trying not to give away my strategy) i will choose two civs i feel will work well together. if one of my civs is already selected i would need to know which one before making a replacement choice, or i might wanna ditch both and make 2 new choices. if we pm map maker & we have same choices we need the mapmaker to pm us back so we can make brand new choices.

any ideas for resolving if two people make same choice?

do neither get the selected civ?

w/ 4 people making 2 choices each blindly, good chance of double picking, dont want a civ 2 b left out just because 2 people (or more) took it

might b hard 2 accomplish, but would b nice 2 go into game blind not knowing what the pairs are beforehand, certainly willing 2 give it a try.

one note about civs: cant go random because a locked alliance must be made between two civs in the scenario properties before setting up the game

Then here is what I propose. The map maker can pick our two civs for us. You can ask Meliflous to make the map. I know he makes maps for ladder games. He is really good at picking out good match-ups. I suggest he make the civs for us. I do like going into the game blind. It makes it more fun. The best part about civ for me is still the first turn of the game. Just looking at what civ I got and settling my first city is the greatest.

Going to bed now...very late.

yeah, my first turns take awhile, looking at all my opponents, what their traits / starting techs are vs mine and getting a mini strategy for first part of game.

i dont know about having him pick for us, i kinda already have some sort of strategy in mind, not actual civs picked out, but ... well, i dont wanna give it away, of course this is not my game, it's our game and i'll go w/ whatever the consensus decides

I think we should definitely play turn order AABBCCDD.

As for all the other options, Im easy.

Well, it looks like we are all agreed then...except where is Zurichuk? Are you lurking out there? Let's get this game rolling!

i'm here, didn't realise that i was signed up but can always make room for another PBEM, email is in profile btw, i don't mind random civs and i'll go with the flow on the other decisions, go for it!!!

did u want to play, zurichuk, u had expressed interest in the other thread, Conquest Alliance PBEM where i had 3 options:

i'd be interested in 1

i took that to mean u wanted in the game, if you dont no hard feelings.

Assuming zurichuk does want to play, seems he & apricorn are pretty flexible, so lets get our settings in order so we can proceed, guess u & i will make most of the decisions, dogboy, but u two chime in anytime. Also, i sent a pm to Meliflous asking if he'd make a map, still waiting on a response. I'll let him decide about making our allies close or far apart, see advantages w/ both, although at different stages of the game.

we can go w/ random civs (not really random but Meliflous or other map maker choosing for us) or we can try the pming our choices to him thing, which i would prefer. if we go w/ pming our choices, my final thoughts on this is each player pm's 3-4 pairs of civs, the map maker chooses one set from the 3-4 pairs, so you cant be certain who you're going to be, yet there is some level of choice. but then this might make for extra work on the map maker, thoughts?

I was thinking of a relatively normal world (temperate, 4 billion, normal) but not a stickler for this.

think map maker should decide about continents, pangea, or archipelgio, whichever is easier to set up w/ our requests, what's your opinion? Although if he goes w/ pangea we might want to request no civs w/ seafaring as their trait / UU, proviing we go random

world size: we have 8 civs even though 4 players, should we go w/ standard size map, 70% h2o

victory conditions: all allowed? except wonder (not that the game would actually get that far) i hate anything which depends on the score of this game in determining the winner.

AP on / off? i like on for speed

allow cultural conversions?

turn order: AABBCCDD

any other thoughts / decisions?

everyone post timezones please.

The times I can play the turn are 1900-2300 GMT weekdays and 0900-2300 GMT weekends.

I dont mind what civs to play, anything other than Celts or Carthaginians is fine by me (Im playing those in my other PBEMs)

AP - hmmm, Ive never played with it on, would certainly be interesting to try it and speed up the early game a bit. So I vote ON.
Standard size map sounds good.
Id say all allowed for victory conditions including wonder.
Yes to allow cultural conversions

Did I give you my email predesad?

Ok, sounds like we got a game! As for my prefereces:

Let Meliflous set up the map for us. He is good at that and knows what will make good matchups. If we want random civs, he will know what civs to pick for us. He has done this for me in several other PBEM games. Assuming Meliflous can't make the map for us, then we need to get somebody else.

Turn order needs to be AABBCCDD

Standard size map. I don't care if it's panagea or continents or whatever, just so long as it's "fair". i.e. Two of us should not have both our civs on one continent and the other two have their civs split apart by continents.

AP ON. I have only played with AP once, but it looks like the consesus here is on, so I will go with that.

All victory conditions should be on.

Cultural conversions should be on.

0100-0400 GMT weekdays.
1200-0400 GMT weekends.

So it looks like I should go after APRICORN :goodjob: unless somebody else plays between our two times.

well despite the confusion i'm looking forward to it, i'm in uk zone but i am a night-owl anyway

Looks like we are almost ready! The turn order can be Zurichuk/Apricorn in either order as they both play same time zone, then me, not really sure where predesad plays as he never posted a time. Have you got a map maker yet predesad?

No map maker yet, according to message tracking Meliflous has not yet recieved my message & also has not logeed into ciffanatics since 6am Jan 12. I'll give it one mopre day, then we need to try to find another map maker. Any of you guys who know someone who might be interested, or can find one feel free to go ahead.

Apricorn, i believe i have ur email from arrogant's 8player game, as well as dogboy's, zurichuk's is in his profile, as is mine, so that's not an issue.

My time zone is GMT -6, play usually somewhere between 0:00 & 06:00, more freedom about 0400-0600. a good turn order i guess would be something like Apricorn, Zurichuk, Dogboy, then me

you know, i just thought of a way to get this game started immediately w/out a map maker, it would rely on random method of choosing civs & starting locations, but IMHO that's what civ is really about, taking what you are given good or bad and working w/ it. A good strategist can still win the game from almost any starting position. Any idiot can win the game if they start coastal + river + good terrain + resources. we could still go w/ an alternate game later & have 2 games going if wanted provided we locate a map maker, but i anticipate finding someone to do this will take some time, and then the actual designing the whole scenario at least a couple days to get it right and balanced the way we want.

i'll assign each civ a number from 1 to 31 (example: greeks = 1, americans = 2, ottomans = 25 ...) i'll pm these slections to both apricorn & zurichuk. Dogboy will then assign civs by picking two numbers for each player (example: predesad 15 & 6, zurichuk 7 & 12, apricorn 9 & 28, dogboy 30 & 28) civ selection is completely random because dogboy does not know which numbers coorespond to which civ. Since zurichuk & apricorn also know my number selections, it will be certain that i cannot manipulate the choices in any way but must go with the random selections. Immediatley after the selections are made by dogboy i would then post the results of the random selection, although everyone but dogboy would already know the results. i would then start the game w/ the selections we have chosen.

2 final choices to be made that i can think of, difficulty level & barbarian level. (difficulty level would only decide # of content citizens & attack bonus vs barbarians)

might as well go w/ regent since no AI, i prefer raging barbs. any other thoughts?

im going to go ahead and assign the numbers, pm to zurichuk & apricorn in case this is acceptable. then as soon as dogboy posts the numbers, if its a go, we can start the game. does anyone like this idea? does anyone hate this idea?

i know this isnt ideal, but it would let us get started, & like i said we can go w/ a second game later if we want. as another condition to this start, i'd be willing to let each player have a veto if the map is just unbearable, but after u veto & i start another game that player does not have a choice of rejecting another game. as far as im concerned, i'll accept whatever im given

Sounds great! Wish I had thought of it. I will go with whatever start I'm given (barring the utterly worthless start of all times). Gotta have some barbs in there for the expansionist civ, but I don't care for raging. Regent sounds fine with me since there are no AI civs. I honestly can't remember the last time I played Regent, but that's fine. I'm ready to pick the numbers.

i pmed the assigned values to apricorn & zurichuk. guess you could go ahead & then i could get the game set up and ready if this is okay w/ the other guys. instead of raging barbs, how about the next level up, isnt that restless?

Ok, I just PM'd everybody their numbers.

results of random selection:

apricorn: dutch & korea
zurichuk: carthage & england
dogboy: greece & germany
predesad: byzantine & portugal

will set up game & post settings

only change is turn order, since i am setting up game instead of map maker, my turn will be 1st, then apricorn, zurichuk, dogboy. really same turn order, just starts w/ me instead of apricorn.

should get game set up & sent to apricorn & then as long as this is fine w/ everyone we'll b on our way.

if the overall set up is fine, but a minor change or 2 is needed no big deal, ill start it over, but right now wold really like 2 getit going, hope its not premature

okay, game is started, turn sent 2 apricorn, zurichuk, ur email is not listed in ur profile, although we can use the email tab in your profile i suppose, could u please either post / pm ur email 2 me, i will pm the other player's emails 2 u.

Game settings:
standard size, continents, 70% h2o, restless barbs
normal climate, temperate, 4 billion
all victory conditions including wonder, regent difficulty
AP on, cultural conversions on, no culturally linked starts

any questions, complaints, comments let me know, want 2 make this a fun game for all. btw, i said it earlier, but ur not forced 2 play the setup like it is, if u dont like this we can try something different, just hoping this would be suitable, and ifit was, wanted 2 have it started

turn order:

predesad: byzantine, portugal
apricorn: netherlands, korea
zurichuk: carthage, england
dogboy: greece, germany

used following format for names, 1st civ is predesad sr, 2nd civ is predesad jr, same for each of you

*note: with locked alliance feature, you can conduct diplomacy between your civs from the start of the game, even though you have not made contact

just thought of another way 2 set up game which would put our allied civs close 2 each other. dont necessarily want 2 start over, butif the game isnot satisfactory i am willing. i could go into the editor and edit each civs culture group so that each one's allied civs are in the same culture group, but a different one for each player, then turn on culturally linked starting locations. just let me know what u guys think.

we have a run on seafaring civs, which disappoints me, my least desired trait, but i've been trying lately to switch up things so glad i can at least try out two civs i've never played before w/ traits i dont ever play. should we all agree 2 continue this game, i recommend that dogboy remains a landlubber or else us seafarers will surely run (or sail?) all over you.

No, lets not start over, but play the game as is (I havent seen turn yet but will play it tonight)
Predesad, will om you a better email address to use for me.

EDIT: Actually you used the correct address the first time so dont worry about that!

sent email to pm, however here is a coded version

andrew dot johnson at zurichtoengland dot com (hate those spam spiders that search out email addresses in forums [fora],

before i play my turn, what patch (if any) are we playing on, bearing in miind 1.00, 1.02, 1.12, 1.13 and 1.15 are floating around

I play 1.12. From my understanding, they made it so any patch would work. I can't verify this though. I wanted to wait until they "fixed" all the bugs before getting the next patch.

Just thought of something...if you got my e-mail from my profile, you need to check again. I moved recently and have updated my e-mail address there. But anyway, here it is

greeneclan AT mchsi DOT com

ok playing now, i only have a backup 1.13 installation and a 1.15 main (much better than 1.12 imo)

Well, two words sum up my starting position - swamp and desert!

We made it through a turn!!!!! As for my starting positions, at least they are both on fresh water. But plains and desert, what is that all about?

well, i assume everyone is fine w/ this game since turn came back to me, and i passed it on. my start is not bad, its not good, but its not bad.

Meliflous finally got back 2 me & recommended a site where 'someone' would b happy 2 make a map, guess that's not needed now if we're going w/ this game.

apricorn & dogboy, i already had ur emails from arrogants 8player game, zurichuk, posted & pmed to me his email, which i passed on so everyone in the game should have each other's email

good luck everyone, although if u need luck u might as well get out while u still can

I actually lied about my starting position. Here is a pic of my Greece starting position. My German starting position is even better. I told you it was bad because I wanted you guys to be overconfident. I hope you can forgive me for trying to deceive you. Anyway, best of luck to everyone:love:

Well, it won't let me insert pic. Says file is too big even though I know it's not. Very frustrating.

Note to self, Dogboy of the Greeks is a known liar & a cheat ... and his son, Dogboy jr isnt any better

Correction, I WAS a liar and a cheat. I have changed my ways. To acknowledge the error of my ways, I have uploaded the pic and you can view it here. I did delete the mini map so you can't see where I am, but at least you can see the fertile land I have been blessed with .

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/dogboy/greece.JPG

Do you really expect me to believe that's your real start in 'this' game? Hey, u shoulda threw in a luxury 2, and not so many wheat, but more cows.

NOTE TO SELF: Next time make the pic more believable:mad:

The Koreans had finally settled. Many months of traversing swamps had taken its toll on the settlers and although the location of the new Settlement was far from perfect, being surrounded by flood plains and swamp, they could go no further without rest. But the fledgling civilization faced an uphill struggle, one third of the population were rife with disease and work building the new City of Seoul would be very slow indeed.

Didnt receive the turn today. Any hold up?

i didn't receive it last night:confused:

Must be stuck with ZurichUK - I'll resend it just in case he didnt get it the first time

Just got it. Played and sent.

Sent to Zurichuk

Well, its early days but after 11 turns Dogboy (alliance 4) is in the lead on the scoreboard!

Alliance 4 (Dogboy) 68
Alliance 1 (Predesad) 60
Alliance 2 (Apricorn) 59
Alliance 3 (Zurichuk) 53

Larger image of scoreboard!

I guess my Greece city is just going to be the most powerful city in this game...even if none of you believe my pic.:p

:lol:

I guess my Greece city is just going to be the most powerful city in this game...even if none of you believe my pic.

im sorry 4 doubting, but i predict if ur pic were real, ur score would b much higher, course it is early, still time 4 that awesome growth spurt produced by 5 cows & 13 wheat

Originally posted by predesad


im sorry 4 doubting, but i predict if ur pic were real, ur score would b much higher, course it is early, still time 4 that awesome growth spurt produced by 5 cows & 13 wheat

Maybe the cows broke loose and ate all the wheat?;)

I wont be able to play the turn tonight (friday) as Im going out straight after work. Will play it by around 0900 GMT on Saturday.

Maybe the cows broke loose and ate all the wheat

could b, & then they woulda been thirsty & so drank up all the rivers

thanx 4 delay notice, appreciated

Didnt receive a turn today, if it has been sent to me, might want to resend it.

I sent it to predesad at 1400 GMT today so my guess is it's with him. I didn't expect to get it so early so I'm sure he will play his turn soon?

Due to physical condition, was unexpectedly unable 2 play 2day, but is sent now 2 apricorn about 9:30 PM Central Time (GMT -6)

may / may not have limited availability Sunday / Monday, ISP issues

Hope the recovery is going well Predesad

recovery has been difficult, i have taken a lot of pain killers & really fear addiction is starting 2 take its hold on me, therefore sometimes put off taking pills & just suffer some pain. thanx 4 asking

Guys, who has the game? The last turn I received was 4 days ago. I played and sent it on. The year was 2710BC. Let's get this thing rolling again.

turn received, played, and sent to apricorn

we're rolling again

Well, I checked my records and this game was going fast...for a while. We were doing a turn a day, sometimes 2 or 3 turns on the weekends. Now it's anywhere between 2-5 days per turn. Is everybody ok?

zurichuk

Sorry chaps, I got the turn yesterday but couldnt play it as I unexpectedly never made it home last night. Spent a lot of today sleeping.

Turn now sent to ZurichUK

Things are getting exciting eh :D

No turn for a couple of days, anyone know who has it?

i have not seen it since, well, dont want to give anything away to anyone who might not have contact with me, but there was a lengthy email accompanying the last turn i sent, i believe you know what that was about.

Yes, I replied to that email, did you get it?

yes, & i figured you passed the turn at about the same time

I don't have the turn

Must be with Zurich UK still then.
I will resend it tonight in case its lost in cyberspace

I got it today from Zurichuk, played and sent

ok internet access is restored (email was never down)

do we post any game action here ie contacts and trades

Weve been using email for all contact and trades, probably the best way.
I suppose we shouldnt really post in game stuff here until everyones met everyone else, except for narratives/stories that anyone wants to put in.

general game information is fine in the thread, such as "barbarians looted my city" but unitl everyone has contacted everyone else any in game information you reveal in the thread may be beneficial to other players who are not in contact, even just a little information can help another player, there are players in other games which have learned this the hard way

a couple weks ago i questioned the slow movement of the game, for about 5 turns it got pretty slow. initially i waned to see what the problem was and i first asked zurichuk if he was doing okay. im not going to go into all my reaosns why, but mostly because he was the only player i had not made contact with and therefore i had no email correspondence with him, while i did with other players.

i just now read a pm from him, sent a couple weeks ago, in which he portrays pretty fast response times and was perhpas a little offended by my quesitoning him right off the bat.

i would like to apologize to him, i was not trying to assign blame, but mostly like i said he was the only player i had no correspondence with. whatever the problem was i just wanted to know and deal with it with all players to see if someone needed patience or what.

anyway, i apologize for my post, it was probably not the best way to deal with the issue and i should have made everyone equally acountable at the start.

whatever the true issue was is in the past, lets hope we dont run into another 4-5 turns which take that long. additionally, if someone does have issues in the future and they know they are going to slow the game down (for a specific ongoing period of time, not one specific turn) please just let me know and sen dme your password, ill take yuor turns for you, of course if i gift a few of your cities to my own civs, hey that's just part of my fee. :D

seriously, though, if someone does have any problems just let me know the other players will just have to be patient while the turns move slow or even while the game takes a brief break.

I will be out of town this weekend. I will play my turn Friday night before I leave, and I will be back Sunday night. So basically I will only miss Saturday night. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I just received word from DoyBoy, his cable modem is down, cableman coming to look at it tomorrow. I think he is going to save some turns on a disk at work, play them at home, then can send them the next day from work, but i cannot guarantee that. He can't post here because this site has the word "fanatic" and his web at work has banned sites with words like that.

After further discussion with DogBoy he says as long as this problem continues he will play each turn everyday by downloading it from his mail at work, taking it home at night to play, then mailing it from work the next day. I should get the turn from him sometime tomorrow and then send it on to Apricorn.

Ok, I'm back online! I live in a new subdivision and houses are still being built. The construction workers hit the cable line, but the cable people came today and fixed it. Hopefully they don't hit it again.

I have the turn and will play it now and send along.

The Dutch hereby invite all heads of state and accompanying dignatories from around the world to the Coronation of Apricorn as King of the Dutch, the first such Ruler in the history of our world.
We invite you to Amsterdam, officially the finest city in the world, for this great event. Please also marvel at our Great Library, which was recently completed.

Apricorn of the Dutch

King Apricorn of the Dutch,
First of all, congratulations on being annointed King of the Dutch. I'm sure you will attempt to bring wealth and prosperity to your people.

Thank you for your invitation to visit your kingdom, and specifically your capitol. I shall take you up on your invitation and attempt to be there shortly.

DogBoy of the Greeks/Germans

Let the World know, the Germans have made war upon the Peaceful Dutch people.
Would the Germans care to elaborate exactly how the Dutch have "wronged the Germans in the past" which is their reason for this war, for if we did, they kept remarkably quiet about it at the time. nor ever attempted any peaceful negotiations. In fact relations were excellent until this sudden and unexplained declaration of war.
Or are the Germans merely envious of the Dutch Great Library and resources.....

Apricorn of the Dutch

To the world.
Let it be known that Apricorn is the master of disguise. I won't post the details here because it would be priviledged information that the world doesn't need to know about. But know this, Apricorn talks with a forked tongue and he has brought this war upon himself. I urge the leaders of the world to be wary of any treaties proposed by Apricorn of the Dutch. For all I know, Apricorn of the Koreans is just as bad! So be cautious of them also.

DogBoy of the Germans

The lies of a megolamaniac who searches desperately for excuses to conquer the world!

I challenge you to post this "privileged information" if such information exists. Take your time, if you wish, while your propaganda minister prepares a false pretence for world domination.

Be wary of Dogboy, of the Greeks, Germans or any other race, for it is he, not the Dutch who wages war, without negotiation.

:lol:

tell me more :confused:

ps i haven't received a save for a couple of days, is diplomacy the reason?

pps sounds like you guys are having alot of fun, better than being stuck in a barbarian swamp-like hellhole or an island

I wish I could post more, but like I said, it's priveledged info. Don't let the Dutch fool you, they know of what I speak.

I don't know why you haven't gotten the save for several days. I sent it to Predesad yesterday. He has sent me our other game twice today so I know he's online. Apricorn posted here so I know he's online. Very odd.

ps i haven't received a save for a couple of days, is diplomacy the reason?

i know apricorn got the save because he replied to my email which also contained the save. i would certainly hope nobody is holding up the turn to wait on diplomacy, copmpletely out of character, the game needs to move with or without diplomacy, i know i often do not get to respond to diplomacy until late at might when turns stop coming, because i try to take my turns before getting involved in diplomacy. sometimes i dont have another turn waiting and can respond, other times i need to think and put it on the back burner, but regardless the turn needs to move otherwise everytime someone has a decision to make he'll hold up the game until he hears from everyone to make that decision and we wont get anywhere.

The lies of a megolamaniac who searches desperately for excuses to conquer the world!

I challenge you to post this "privileged information" if such information exists. Take your time, if you wish, while your propaganda minister prepares a false pretence for world domination.

Be wary of Dogboy, of the Greeks, Germans or any other race, for it is he, not the Dutch who wages war, without negotiation.

I wish I could comment, but my public silence has been bought. All I can do is suggest the Dutch take an offer from the Germans if they offer peace and thus make amends for this wrong. I hope the Dutch do not go down at this point in the game, but it seems like their stubborn pride and refusal to admit when they are wrong will cost them.

I played the turn last night. Im sure I sent it onto ZurichUK, but maybe I forgot because of all the diplomacy messages. Apologies if this is the case. Will resend tonight.

By the way, Dogboy's "reason" and privileged info, from what I can make out is that apparently about 30 turns ago, the Dutch told the Germans that the Byzantines were planning on attacking them. Apparently this constitutes an act of agression??
At the time they never expressed any feeling that they had been "wronged"
I suppose a new phrase is born out of this strange reasoning - "Dogboy Logic"

Hmmm, no matter how hard I look at it, I cant make any sense of that.

Predesad - how on earth are the Dutch wrong in this case? Or are you just hoping for a piece of Dogboy's pie?

Dogboy feel free to explain anything you like to the rest, dont worry about confidentiality on my part! Either speak up and back up your accussations or issue a full apology for slurs on my character. Dont hide behind so called "confidential information"

War is a part of the game, so fair enough if you want to wage it for purely conquest reasons. Dont want to hear any of this rubbish about the Dutch fooling anyone though.

I am willing to answer any accusation in public.

By the way, Dogboy's "reason" and privileged info, from what I can make out is that apparently about 30 turns ago, the Dutch told the Germans that the Byzantines were planning on attacking them. Apparently this constitutes an act of agression??

King Apricorn, you're only telling half of the story. But should I consider this a confession on your part that you informed the Germans about private discussions between the Byzantines and the Dutch? This really does not bode well for relations between the Dutch and Byzantines. You come to me asking for neutrality in the war and yet you sling more accusations:

Or are you just hoping for a piece of Dogboy's pie?

Surely you have not yet learned to treat the Byzantines with respect, I was about to send your courier back to you with a message, but given these developments I shall have to contemplate this further.

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

Predesad, that message was from me as a player to you and Dogboy as players. I talk about the "game" in the message as you did in yours.

The first person to explain how the Dutch "wronged" the Germans gets a prize!

Any takers?

Originally posted by Apricorn
Predesad, that message was from me as a player to you and Dogboy as players. I talk about the "game" in the message.

I am getting sick of all the cr*p that is being thrown about here. Some of it seems personal to me.

Okay Apricorn, you need to take a deep breath and calm down. I am sure I can speak for DogBoy as well as myself since we are in several games together. In fact I will build upon that point to start. DogBoy and I have a 2 player game where it is just he and I, obviously that situation requires us to have a unique relationship vs having other players. We have a game where we are allies, we have a game where we are enemies, we have a game where we are really neither, etc, etc. In diplomacy in one game he might send me an email calling me a coward, a liar, blah, blah, blah. In the next email in a different game in diplomacy it's hey buddy, chum, blah, blah, blah.

There is nothing personal and has never been anything personal. For enjoyment of the game it is always best to maintain a mindset for that particular game. It's just a game, at the end of the day whether you win this game or whether someone wipes you out on the next turn it simply does not matter.

When we had our war I specifically sent you an email and said i was neither taking or meaning anything personal when surely there was plenty of opportunity to do so.

Unless a player specifically states so in an email or the thread I view all comments as "in game" and I always will.

But if you are viewing our comments as personal, then I really wonder about the comments you made, they seemed a tad bit on the harsh side if they were intended as personal comments.

Originally posted by predesad

If you cannot play the game without taking anything personal then perhaps you should not play, .

This is typical of your patronising attitude Predesad, Sorry, but Ive bit my lip up until now, I dont know whether you realise but you can come across as quite offensive at times.

Originally posted by Apricorn


This is typical of your patronising attitude Predesad, Sorry, but Ive bit my lip up until now, I dont know whether you realise but you can come across as quite offensive at times.

Apricorn, I apologize to you if I have in any way offended you. I have went through this before. I in no way shape or form meant any of my comments to be directed personally against the person who sits behind the keyboard and uses the name Apricorn at this site. My comment was perhaps a bit strong abd I did not intend it to be that way.

I know I come off with a partonizing attitude at times, that's all part of the character. You did the same to me, I never thought it was a big deal, but that's not the point. When "predesad" in a PBEM game speaks to another player "predesad" is a tyrant controlling a kingdom which does not exist, predesad is a tyrant even if he is operating under a democracy. that tyrant addresses other rulers of kingdom's which do not exist and there is nothing meant to be personal. Apricorn of the Dutch / Koreans is currently not a friend of Predesad of the Byzantines / Portuguese based on past difficulties. Frankly, I am not DogBoy's friend in some games, but I could reference several threads where I took the initiative to post for him when he was having modem difficulties no matter what the game situation was. While these four fictional rulers have a tenuous relationship, I hope that the real Apricorn and Predesad can always consider themselves to be friends.

Once more I apologize to you.

Furthermore, Apricorn, I am enclosing a link here (http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=6190) to show just how seriously I take this stuff. If you'll go to that thread and read about the 6th post which is about 2 days old I think it goes a long way to show I take nothing about this game seriously whatsoever.

And again, once more I apologize to you.

just to let you guys know, i am skipping diplomacy (where possible) for the next couple of turns, i really have no idea what has happened halfway across the world, being isolated as i am and need to 'think over the situation' (ie carefully read all the emails and assess where i actually stand diplomatically at the moment as i have got confused over the double team situation)

just played the turn btw

Apology accepted.

Lets put it down to a misunderstanding.

I just dont like the way Dogboy is making all sorts of implications without backing any of it up.
If he wants to do it by email, fair enough, but this is a public forum, and can be read by all.
And comments like "For all I know, Apricorn of the Koreans is just as bad! So be cautious of them also." I take as a thinly veiled attack on me as a player. Admittedly I retaliated in kind, which I regret.

Great - my only potential ally in the world decides to skip dimplomacy for a while! :rolleyes: ;)

Wow! Lots have been posted here while I was at work all day. Since Apricorn doesn't mind if I post priviledged info here, then I will. But first, if I have offended anybody then I also apologize. When I play this game, I play a character. My comments, or aggression, or the reason I start a war, are meant to be in game. Nothing is an attack on someone personally, just their character in game. In fact the only thing I can think of where I did anything offensive was accidentially call Apricorn Apricot one time, and that was completely by mistake. Anyway, here is my point of view. These are the facts as I see it.

-Everything is going fine.
-Predesad e-mails me something very nice for a MPP. I sign it.
-About 3-4 turns later I find that Korea is about to attack the Byzantines.
-Apricorn sends me an e-mail asking me to join in the crusade against the Byzantines with the reason that the Byzantines have cheated the Dutch out of a tech. He also tells me that the Byzantines asked the Dutch for an alliance to kill Germany. In addition, he asks me to keep everything confidential between us.
-I tell him no because a few turns ago I signed a MPP with the Byzantines.
-The next turn Korea attacks the Byzantines, I ask them to make peace or the next turn I am attacking.
-Korea and Byzantines make peace.

Now my thoughts, and not facts.

Then I ask myself, why would the Byzantines give me what they did for a MPP when they were also asking the Dutch to ally and kill Germany? Then I realized that Apricorn never told me what his reply was to Predesad. I also felt mad that Predesad "tricked" me into signing a MPP when he knew he might be going to war soon.

Back to the facts.
-I position an attack force between Presead's capitol and a city he recently settled close to my lands. I knew he was probably weak in one of them because he can't defend them both.
-I sent Predesad an e-mail telling him I suspected the alliance between him and the Dutch to kill Germany. I also tell him our MPP was a farce and I was going to attack him for tricking me. If he wanted to live, he better pay me something good.
-He sent me an e-mail back admitting to the alliance between the Byzantines and the Dutch to kill Germany. He paid me some very good tribute to leave him alone.
-We signed a new MPP, a worthy one.
-I never mentioned how I found out about the alliance because Apricorn asked me to keep the e-mails between him and I private.

Now back to my thoughts.
The Germans were about to be a punching bag by the Dutch and the Byzantines. For whatever reason the Dutch and the Byzantines just could not get along (they both posted their reasons several weeks ago). Now that the Germans and their very close allies are strong, it's payback time. I extored the Byzantines, now I'm about to extort the Dutch. I have no qualms with the Koreans or the Portuguese.

Anyway, that's DogBoy logic. If you wrong me in the game, you better be prepared to pay for it.

I would also like to comment on some things Predesad said. My character in game stays in game. He and I are in several games together and I (and I know he does also) play each game differently. Apricorn, there are other games you and I are in and perhaps we will be the best allies in one of those games. I hope that you don't take the character from this game and apply it to every game. If I were to backstab, reneg on a peace treaty, or conduct a ROP rape, I think that you, or anyone, would have the right to distrust me in every other game. But our non-aggression pact has worn out. I am not cheating, being deceitful, or doing nay exploits. I am declaring war before moving into your territory which is honorable. And that's all I have to say about that.

Got the turn 15 minutes ago, I shall play it now.

Originally posted by DogBoy



-Apricorn sends me an e-mail asking me to join in the crusade against the Byzantines with the reason that the Byzantines have cheated the Dutch out of a tech

This is not strictly true.
The message was a dimplomatic feeler and was phrased if "in the event of war" would the Germans join in the crusade or remain neutral.

It was NOT a request to join forces to wage war against the Byzantines.

And I still dont see anything there that implicates the Dutch in any wrong doing against the Germans. All theyve done is ask questions!

Originally posted by DogBoy

The Germans were about to be a punching bag by the Dutch and the Byzantines.

Not true, No plans were ever made for this.

Originally posted by Apricorn
Great - my only potential ally in the world decides to skip dimplomacy for a while! :rolleyes: ;)

only while i'm looking into all my previous emails and seeing what agreements i have with whom, what is expiring, what is valid, i'm doing this as i write, next time i write them down in a text file, looking to resume diplomacy after i've done this, probably tonight (although the SMAC disk laying on the table is diverting my concentration)

edit - for my reference

apricorn: dutch & korea
zurichuk: carthage & england
dogboy: greece & germany
predesad: byzantine & portugal

Here is the first e-mail you sent me:

I ask you two things in confidence. In the event of war between the Dutch and the Byzantines, would you guarantee neutrality? Secondly would you be interested in joining me, something that would greatly aid your quest for greated living space. I believe the Byzantines have two cities at least. If you joined me in this crusade I would promise to ensure one of these cities was given to you. I know the German people do not want war, but what would they say to a short blitzkrieg war, with a poweful ally, and vwith victory and new lands certain?

That sounds like you asked me to join you in a war to me. I told you I had a MPP with the Byzantines. You sent me this e-mail:

The deceit of the Byzantines is becoming legendary. For only a few turns ago, they were trying to persuade the Dutch to join them in a future crusade against your own good people, who they now claim allegiance. However I refused, and have signed no treaty with the Byzantines despite their efforts.

When I tricked Predesad and told him I knew of an alliance between he and you, he couldn't deny it. I didn't tell him how I found out. Now, I don't know who asked who to form an alliance to kill me. Either was either you or he, nobody has told me. But what I do know is that both of you were planning to kill me, and that counts as aggression towards me. Like I have said, the Byzantines have paid me dearly not to attack them. I have offered you a way out of this but you declined my offer. Perhaps if you had paid me first then it would be the Byzantines that would soon meet my wrath. But it just so happens that I had an attack force near their city earlier than I could get one to yours. Plus, I had to attack them first to find out if there in fact was an alliance to kill me. If my logic is skewed, then so be it. Bottom line is that we are going to war. I gave you a way out, but you denied it. If I am in the wrong here with "DogBoy logic", I can live with it. It's a game, conquest is a victory type, and that is a way that I might try to win.

i have the turn and i debated taking a break form this gaem when things seemed to get "personal" but it seems like evrything is cleared up, i cannot play the turn right now as i am about to leave to go get my son's t-ball equipment, but i will play it shortly

i would like to respond briefly to Apricorn:

no, the Byzantines cannot be your ally because the Germans have bought their neutrality, or should i say i bought my continued existence and in return had to be quiet and stay neutral. But I am prepared to stay nueutral as long as I am not attacked, as the Germans / Greeks have permitted this according to our terms of the MPP. If you do not attack or otherwise declare war or make another deliberate act of war against me I will not attack you.

to zurichuk

we had a deal on the table, i am offering you this deal assuming it is still valid, if the terms are no longer valid then I expect you to decline the deal. i will email you the details later after i take the turn.

Originally posted by DogBoy
In the event of war between the Dutch and the Byzantines, would you .

Noice the phrasing of the question, "in the event of war"
I was just trying to explore all possible options.

Im not going to debate this anymore with you Dogboy, its going round in circles and a waste of our energy.

I think it is clear to anyone reading this that the Germans have no valid reason to attack the Dutch, other than conquest (which is fine by me - just dont pretend that the Dutch have been in the wrong diplomatically)

However I would like to apologise profusely to the Byzantines for the Dutch complete lack of judgment in making such enquiries with the Germans. A valuable lesson has been learnt.

But in the Dutch defence, I would like to point out that I knew I was in a precaurious position, it was clear that even before relations had soured between the Dutch and the Byzantines that the Germans and Greeks were trading techs with them. At that time I felt that it was likely that the Byzantines would enlist the help of the Germans or Greeks to destroy me due to the complete breakdown of Dutch - Byzantine relations.
Before the Dutch got the Great Library they had fallen way behind in technology after being more or less equal with the Germans/Greeks/Byzantines only 20 turns before, whcih proves what a precaurious situation the Dutch were in, with most of the rest of the world seemingly allied against them (in trade at least)

it was clear that even before relations had soured between the Dutch and the Byzantines that the Germans and Greeks were trading techs with them

that is incorrect, in fact it was the dutch who traded tech with the germans before relations had soured, i know the germans / greeks can back me up on this.

i don't know if this is just an oversight by you or if you simply (King Apricorn) were under the impression the Byzantines traded tech with the Germans / Greeks. immediately after our relations soured yes, i did seek trade with the germans / greeks, after all the byzantines were alone on the continent with their allies far away. of course, soon after we entered into this trade, the Byzantines were extorted...

Yes the Dutch traded technology with the Germans very early on in the game. The Dutch never made a secret of this, in fact they told the Byzantines about it at the time.

For whatever reason the Dutch began to fear the Byzanantines (more precisely their powerful bargaining position and technological advantage) at some point and for a time considered war. However, they decided against it a long time ago and committed to being a nation of peace

For whatever reason the Dutch began to fear the Byzanantines (more precisely their powerful bargaining position and technological advantage) at some point and for a time considered war. However, they decided against it a long time ago and committed to being a nation of peace

Understandably with the Byzantines allied to the mighty portuguese who had a penchant for popping techs, I could understand this fear, however, King Apricorn, when the Byzantines and Portuguese both asked for a renewal of our peace agreement why would you decline if you were committed to peace?

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

The Dutch did not decline a renewal of the peace agreement, they agreed, but to a standard game peace treaty rather than a set turn non aggression pact.
Given the complications involved with the last treaty between the Dutch and Byzantines, which was brought to the attention of the whole world (and it was believed that the Byzantines tricked the Dutch into breaking the treaty terms by building a city in a particular position), we wanted to avoid the headache of committing ourselves to ANY long term agreement with the Byzantines, at least until the relationship improved.
This does not in any way mean the Dutch werent committed to peace.

Originally posted by Apricorn
The Dutch did not decline a renewal of the peace agreement, they agreed, but to a standard game peace treaty rather than a set turn non aggression pact.
Given the complications involved with the last treaty between the Dutch and Byzantines, which was brought to the attention of the whole world (and it was believed that the Byzantines tricked the Dutch into breaking the treaty terms by building a city in a particular position), we wanted to avoid the headache of committing ourselves to ANY long term agreement with the Byzantines, at least until the relationship improved.
This does not in any way mean the Dutch werent committed to peace.

when i requested a renewal of the peace agreement, i suggested dropping all the extra terms / etc and making it just an agreement to peace. also we did not ask for a long term agreement, we asked for a very short term agreement, 20 turns, in the hopes of building upon the relationship. i do not understand your reasoning here, king apricorn, if you wanted peace why not agree to a peace deal which contained no other conditions / terms? a simple 20 turn peace agreement assures peace which is what you say you wanted. if the relationship did not improve, then go to war when it ends, 20 turns is not that long.

the byzantines built the city where it was built becasue that is the best city location site availbale to us, i can provide a map of the area to show it was the best city site, since this area has been thoroughly explored by dutch / korean units we are certain the dutch know it was the best city site for us, the only place which allowed us to have anything besides complete jungle, or mountains. it was coastal and it had fresh water, and a bonus resource, tropical fruit, not to mention it was on a hill good for defensive pruposes.

in addition, there is no way the city site affected the dutch, it was completely on the opposite side of the dutch near the koreans. to our knowledge th edutch never violated th eterms of the treaty accidental or purposely.

now, if we were trying to get the koreans to break the treaty, then why would we back off the initial accusation? we had received no clear warning the korean unit had committed the indiscretion, only further intimidation from the dutch / koreans. for all we knew the unit was intending to attack, or look for another oppotunistic moment to hurt the byzantines as they had already. in addition, we then let the korean unit pass freely to its home, despite the koreans being unwilling to convince the dutch to do the same for our warrior, who never was permitted to come back home. and how were we to even know the korean warrior would move next to our city, we did not even have knowledge of this unit until it appeared outside our borders.

the Byzantines are convinced the Dutch and the Koreans wanted to leave themselves open to attack us whenever they wanted, just as they did before having ignored our requests, even before the alliance soured, to sign a peace agreement. we did not even request a long term deal, only 20 turns. in addition, the Byzantines believe they have done far more to work toward peaceful relations than the koreans or the dutch.

let it be known by the dutch and the koreans there will be no deals between our mutual nations whatsoever until we do get a guarantee of peace. we are still waiting a private response to our proposal.

Sir Predesad of the Byzantines

ok first ICBM built, who wants it

Wrong game?

oops yep, actually i think they've deleted one of my other games

Im going away for the weekens so wont be able to play a turn until sunday

Ok, have a safe trip:)

Peace has been made!!![party] The Dutch offered a peace treaty to the Germans which has been accepted. I will not talk about the specifics of the peace treaty. However, it was such a momentus occasion that the Greeks and the Koreans decided to make peace also. We have also decided on a boundary so neither of us will aggressively settle on each other. This should alleviate any hostilities in the future. The Germans and Greeks are so happy they threw a celebration in honor of Apricorn to recognize his kingdom! Let it be publicly known that we hail Apricorn, King of the Dutch this day:king:

whenever i get the turn again, i have patched to ver 1.20 so at least from that point on everyone else will need to patch

hmmm, i heard it was a pile of brown smelly stuff, in that case you will have to wait for my desktop to come back from being repaired (they said this evening but that probably means Monday), i'll do the upgrade on that one and keep my laptop as 1.15, i have other faster longer-running pbems that are sticking to 1.15

ok guys just received the turn but cannot play it until tomorrow evening as that's when i get my desktop back and can upgrade to 1.2 (complete with new motherboard, cpu and quadruple the ram of before, old cpu melted :( ), need to keep 1.15 on this laptop handy for a couple of SG's for which i will probably be up in soon (and i have to concentrate in one of them as i stuffed up in my last round of turns)

ok peeps i need some feedback

1.22 is available, apparently 1.20 doesn't load into it so when the corrected full patch comes out next week i guess the same could happen, were we right to play in 1.20?, what shall i play in? are we stuffed, should we wait rather than have to backtrack a few turns? i'm still 1.15 on both pcs but willing to experiment on one of them

Upgrade to 1.20. That patch works just fine. It's the 1.22 that has the problems that won't load some games. In all my PBEMs, I am playing 1.20 and there are no problems whatsoever.

dogboy is right about 1.20, i had no choice but to upgrade because of prior commitments in games at another site, i had started these games earlier and basically everyone patches at the same time to keep all players on the same version so my games there had no choice but to move up

Guys, Due to the fact that Im not living at home at the moment, Im not going to be able to play a turn for a while. Im going to try and get Civ installed on the computer where Im at now, but dont know whether this will be in a few days or a week or two.

If you would like to get a temporary replacement in during this period, I'll understand.

I don't care what we do. We can wait if everybody wants or find a replacement.

If we do find a replacement, he needs to know the peace treaties that are going on and the boundary that Apricorn and I have established between our civs. It might also help for Apricorn to tell the replacement what his plans were because we are pretty well along in this game and it would suck for the replacement to screw his game up.

also need replacement to be aware of the treaties between his civs and mine, i havenot checked but think this is just a peace treaty and no other deals ongoing at the moment. This is your decision, we can wait if it's only going to be a week or two, but if you want to get a temporary replacement that is always your option. Thanks for the update and let us know what you decide.

what they said :)

edit, have no objections either way, if its a short while though, may as well wait

Right, I am hoping that I should be able to get CIV3 installed this weekend. So with any luck, we will be back moving again on sunday.
Sorry for the delay and thanks for your patience.

good luck apricorn (let us know if you have difficulties patching as i have 1.15, 1.20 archived away)

Did Apricorn ever make it back? How about getting the game patched to 1.20?

i dont know, i had email contact with him for awhile, but we have lost touch

Has Apricorn ever made it back? I found a replacement for Predesad but we can't start without Apricorn.

Never mind. Posted to wrong thread. Let me catch up on my reading in this one before I take a turn!

Good luck! RJ has agreed to take Apricorn's place and civaddict has agreed to take Predesad's place. I will send the last turn I sent to Predesad to civaddict and we can get this game going again.

Zurichuk, you need to tell RJ any deals that you and Apricorn had.
civaddict, you need to tell RJ any deals that you and Apricorn had.

OK RJ i had a pact with Apricorn to move in on DogBoy and wipe him out

actually i have no idea, this was so long ago, i'll fish through the mails when i next have time

i've just realised that i've had the save from RJ for over a day, got lost amongst the junk obviously didn't filter into my PBEM folder as he is new in this game, will play asap

OK on edit it has been sent to dogboy, civaddict can you PM me as i want to continue something i was doing with predesad and i don't know your email address

I am going out of town Saturday afternoon and will be back Sunday evening. Times are east coast USA. Have a good weekend.

Lead story from Dutch Times of Amsterdam:
"The Dutch outbid the Germans for the residence of the renowned Scientist, Isaac Newton."

The world renowned scientist, who is expected to lead the Dutch into the next 2 ages of technology with innovation and flair, was quoted as saying: "Crimony! It was no contest. I hate sourkraut and seeing people dance polkas around in leiderhosen with accordians just makes me want to heave!"
:D

I don't know how you are beating me in these wonder races. Amsterdam is definately the city to be admired in this game. I think that city has more wonders than any other cities, plus it's in a prime location.

Headlines from 'The Daily Whisper'

Page 1.
Industrial revolution could be occurring in London as the concept of the free market introduced by Adam Smith comes into effect. :king: :hatsoff:

Page 2. Excerpts from Dr Johnsons dictionary

Page 3. Voluptuous Victoria unveiled

Back page. OXford narrowly beat Cambridge in annual jousting competition William Pitt the even more younger is MVJ

Uhmm...does anyone else think that this format is working? I mean, I've seen insane tech races before, but this puts everything to shame... :confused:

This is very fast I think. I was about 4 or 5 techs ahead of everybody, but now everybody is caught up with me, and maybe be ahead of me now. I don't know how you guys did it.

maybe you just made the techs cheaper for the rest of us?

for the benefit of lurkers, we are soon to go AD :), only the 4th PBEM that I've played in that has reached so far, incidentally none of those PBEMs have had more than 4 players

For all you lurkers out there, we just made it to 10AD. All of us have at least four techs in the industrial age. The tech is just flying in this game.

The Dutch lost their coal :lol: :lol: :lol: I was surprised this turn when I saw that the coal source just outside the city of Smyrna is no longer there. After scouting the map I found a new source within Carthage territory. So either Zurichuk will now start to rail England (assuming he hasn't done so already because I haven't scouted there in a while) or he will trade it to the Dutch.

To Rubberjello: :p

that new source of coal allows an iron works (unless you're talking about another reappearance) :), shame it's so corrupt though

Let's see here. There has got to be a smiley around here that gives "the finger"! No!? Well %*($#@&%@(&^#(*$@*&!!!*%&#(*@&%! to you then! ;)

This is the second Industrial era PBEM game in a row where I got shafted by a moving coal resource. It just sucks.... :( :mad:

here borrow this one http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/020.gif

Yep, that new coal resource allows the iron works on that small peninsula. It does look pretty corrupt down there. But how fair is it that Carthage has two irons down there?

about as fair as the english not having iron, saltpetre (saltpeter for the USA guys :) ), coal etc etc, imo they WERE an easy take-out 50 turns ago

edit (along time later) - mind you i only settled this area in the last 30 or so turns, had huge amounts of barbs to get through before i could get there, in fact i got them again in the change to the industrial era and they pillaged my iron while i wasn't looking 2 turns ago :(

edit (an even longer time later), iron back on

wtf? i had two ships close to english land and this turn they are gone. i check diplo and im not at war with the english. i have plenty of money. the ships can be in the ocean. anybody know what happened to my ships? this is with portugal.

that's a bit weird :eek: , i'm not at war with you

I didn't get the save when I got up this morning, and it wasn't in my inbox when I got home. Is everybody ok?

i was watching the footie :)

(also i have to get out of this habit of going to bed at 4am so it might not always be there soon for you first thing in the morning [wife back t minus 3 weeks])

Guys, I am going on vacation. I will be gone from June 20-23 and from June 26-July 1. Sorry for the delay.

Guys, I am going on vacation. I will be gone from June 20-23 and from June 26-July 1. Sorry for the delay.

have a good one and enjoy it!!!

I just played and sent my turn before going out of town. I would like to personally thank Predesad for this game. I can't see what resources are underneath other people's cities, and I don't have the map fully scouted yet, but it appears to me as if there are only three rubber sources in this world.

*drum roll please*

I HAVE ALL THREE OF THEM :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, it looks like I was wrong when I said I had all three sources of rubber. My Greeks have FOUR sources and my Germans have ONE source. So that makes FIVE sources of rubber for me. I guess I was just in a hurry to play and send my turn before going out of town. And I still don't see anybody else having any rubber!

You *do* realize that gloating isn't exactly winning you any friends. ;)

Well, I didn't think I had too many friends in this game. I know that you and the English/Carthage are working together. And I just got done playing with you in the Predesad game. I know how you play (I think). So it really doesn't matter if I gloat or not.

Well, I didn't think I had too many friends in this game. I know that you and the English/Carthage are working together. And I just got done playing with you in the Predesad game. I know how you play (I think). So it really doesn't matter if I gloat or not.
Hmmm....I don't know if I should take offense to this or not. Exactly how do I play? ...And may I point out you and Civfanatic were cooperating on research also.

RJ: You should take it as a compliment. I think you are a good player. That is why I asked you if you wanted to take over this game. That's also why I asked you if you wanted to take over the Predesad-DogBoy 2 player alliance game. When I said I know how you play, I meant I know what you are probably thinking based upon a few things you have said in this game, and some of the things you said in the "New Conquests" game that I took over when Predesad left. Sun Tzu said if you know yourself and you know your enemies, then you will be successful. Well, I know myself. And I pay attention to everything that a player does/says in this game, as well as the other games I have played with him. So I try to know that player.

As for gloating, take a look at post #134 on page 7 of this thread.

And I enjoy playing with everybody in this game because they are such good players and can joke around without getting their feelings hurt.

LoL! Good point about post #134. :lol:

My feelings weren't hurt at all. I implied that they were so that you would explain how you think I play so that I could change from that so I won't be too predictable! ;)

Doh! Looks like you got me there. :blush: It won't happen again.

*****WAR*****WAR*****WAR*****

The Greeks have declared war on the Byzantines, and their MPP drew the Portuguese into the war.

The Greeks have declared war on the Koreans, and their MPP drew the Dutch into the war.

The Germans have declared war on the Dutch, and their MPP drew the Koreans into the war.

The Germans declared war on the Swiss, and their MPP drew the English into the war.

My longtime ally, friend, and mutual trading partner has turned on me and stabbed me in the back. I have suspected it for some time, and now I know it for sure. Me and the Byzantines/Portuguese had a deal to trade techs, luxuries, and resources for a long time. Then one time he decided not to renew a luxury agreement when it ran out, even though I just renewed one with him. But we worked out those differences and continued to trade. Then all of a sudden I go back an age and get an outdated tech and find out he already has it! There is only two things I can think about that. Either he got it from somebody else or he researched himself. The Portuguese couldn't have researched it because they were researching something else. The Byzantines could have researched it but it would have taken forever. But he told me he just researched it last turn and was going to give it to me. Hmm, sounds suspicious because he goes before me. Then a few turns later I get an advanced tech that neither of us was researching and he already has that one! He said he just got that one also and forgot to tell me he was researching it. Sounds very suspicious to me. Then I turn both my civs to max research and get mass production one turn and flight the next, and guess what...he has both of those! So it's obvious now that he has been going behind my back and trading with somebody. I just don't know who. Since everybody else has mass production and flight, it's either the Dutch/Korean team or the Swiss/England team, or both. And since the Dutch/Korean are on the same land mass as me, they will have to go. So I decided to attack this turn not giving one turn notice. Call it cheap if you will, but turning my ally against me is cheaper.

I will post my battle reports here instead of sending each of you something individually. That way you won't have to forward e-mails and such. I forgot to write down exatcly what I lost and what I killed but will do so in the future.

Greeks:
-Captured the Byzantine city of Mount Predesad killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Byzantine city of West Predesad killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Byzantine city of West Predesadburg killing everybody inside.
-Killed that stack of 4 riflemen and 2 guerillas outside West Predesadburg.
These were costly battles and I lost about 10 infantry and 5 cavalry.

Germans:
-Captured the Dutch city of Smyrna killing everybody inside.
-Captured the Dutch city of Leiden killing everybody inside.
-Then I see a Swiss transport with a bunch of Infantry in Dutch territory. So I think, either the Swiss just declared war on the Dutch or he landed those units there to come and get me. But his transport is undefended, and it's obvious that I'm behind in tech. I know that the Dutch/Korean team and the Swiss/English team teamed up to catch up to me and the Byzantine/Portuguese team. I do some calculation and I don't see how the Dutch/Korean team and the Byzantine/Portuguese team can get ahead of me in techs by themselves because the Byzantines are so small and the Koreans were once referred to as the swamp-dwelling, volcano-inhabitating, desert living people. Basically their land sucks also. So I figure the Swiss/English team is coming to invade me. If I'm wrong, then I profusely apologize and will make amends. However, I did sink an English destroyer in the waters just off the Eastern German coast.
-Captured 4 Dutch workers near Middleburg.
-Captured 4 and then 3 Dutch workers near Arnhem.
-Bombed a bunch of Dutch land.

Once again, I'm sorry for not keeping better records of the battles and I will do better in the future (if there is anymore battles).

Whoah! Whoah! Whoah!

I thought you were supposed to give one-turn war notices in PBEM games???
OK. I'll call you CHEAP then!
This was totally unexpected and uncalled for. :mad:

P.S. Who the hell are the "Swiss" you keep ranting about?

And please go over the logic again for declaring war on the Dutch and Koreans who have been peacefully sharing your borders for soooo long, and have not giving you the slightest provocation? I kind of missed your reasoning behind that action. ??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

The Swiss are Carthage. Since they get the Swiss Mercenary, I called them the Swiss.

My logic for declaring war on the Dutch/Koreans is thus:
-My ally betrayed me.
-He could only betray me by teaming up with you or Zurichuk.
-I know you and Zurichuk have been working together.
-After finding Carthage units in your land I realize that you and Zurichuk are still working together.
-I now know that my ally has to be working with both of you. (I have suspected it for some time)
-I have watched my civs go from "compared to these guys our military is strong" to "compared to these guys our military is weak" against the Dutch, Carthage, Portuguese.
-I have to launch a pre-emptive strike to kill you before you kill me.

That is my reasoning for going to war against the Dutch/Korea. (If you read earlier is this thread I have been accused of using "DogBoy Logic" so that might have happened again.)

I have never heard of giving a one turn notice before declaring war. All our peace deals have run out long ago. If everybody else here thinks what I did was wrong and I should have given a one turn notice before declaring war then let me know and we will discuss it.

we had never discussed it but i think its proper to give a one turn notice before declaring war. i vote doing your turn over and if you want to fight then you declare war and then you can attack.

i already played and sent my turn so RJ may need to hold off until we settle this.

Yep. That is Dogboy logic :crazyeye:
:D

First of all, you have no proof your ally was involved with the Dutch/Koreans, only conjecture.
Secondly: A pre-emptive strike has been the excuse warmongers and tyrants have used thousands of times throughout history to rationalize war. (I include Bush Jr. in this category, BTW).
Thirdly: I have no idea why there are Carthage troops in my territory. They were certainly not there last turn! I have not opened the game yet so I don't see how things stand. And by your own admission, you didn't see them until "after" you attacked the Netherlands? What kind of circular logic is that?
Fourthly: Let's just call it like it is: You are the warmongering aggressor here. Correct? This is a "Wargame" after all. You don't really need flimsy excuses. ;) I just want everyone to know clearly who the aggressor is here.

Depending upon how Zuri votes, I guess we could just continue on. Germany/Greece will go down in infamy for this blatant and unjustified sneak attack. I really kind of regret the loss of those innocent workers working on the border tiles --- the loss of those two cities don't hurt me nearly as much, as our borders were so packed with close cities that no matter who went first, it would seem "unfair".

well to me it's a war-game, i think a warning should be given in the case of any deals that may be going on and therefore broken but in the case of dogboy attacking myself i had no peace deal, no other deal and a warning would only give me an advantage

Sorry to ask a stupid question but Dogboy said he's calling Carthage the Swiss because they have Swiss mercenaries...but aren't they supposed to be the Dutch UU? Or I missed something on this topic about game configuration.

Sorry to ask a stupid question but Dogboy said he's calling Carthage the Swiss because they have Swiss mercenaries...but aren't they supposed to be the Dutch UU? Or I missed something on this topic about game configuration.

yep for Carthage it's the Numidian Mercenary, the Dutch have the Swiss pikeman, just a small confusion

Well, in that case. (Just to make Dogboy's logic even more Byzantine) ;) Greece and the Netherlands had an existing Wines-Ivory Lux deal going when he declared war. To be fair to him though - Yes. Any pre-existing peace deals (in terms of turn limitations) had expired).

Let's see here now....Greek invasion forces landed in Korea's rear. That is *at least* 5 turns away via frigate transport, which means Dogboy has been planning this offensive for 5 turns. That kind of throws all his initial justifications for going to war out the window, doesn't it? (Kind of like no WMD for the Bush Administration)

Netherlands has been hurt badly from the initial attacks. Having no Rubber is just a killer at this point.
Bombarded and killed 6 Infantry which had landed on the Iron behind Masstrict with the loss of 3 Guerillas.
Bombarded and killed 2 Worker-killing Infantry next to Middleburg with the loss of 1 Cavalry.
Bombarded and killed 2 Worker-killing Infantry next to Arnheim with the loss of 3 Cavs. :eek: :mad: (vs Red-lined Infantry? That sucked!)
Bombarded and killed 2 Infantry next to Hamburg with the loss of 1 Cavalry.

Korea is doomed. The consideration of mass suicide and salting the earth is being considered. They only bombarded the Greek invasion forces a little bit. No Rubber is again the culprit, (and probably the worst land for start short of the Byzantine start that I've seen in a long, long, time) Again, the Greeks captured many workers on the borders. The Greeks are at least more human than the Germans, who *KILLED* all those innocent workers. War crimes charges should be considered if the German King is ever brought to justice. (Which doesn't look likely now, even with the rest of the world against him)

Ok, time to defend myself.

Sorry for calling them Swiss. I did get confused and meant to call them Numidian Mercenaries. But I couldn't remember the Numidian part, and I put Swiss to Mercenaries, so I just called them Swiss. Sorry for the confusion.

True, I had no proof that the Byzantines/Portuguese was involved with the Dutch/Korean team. However, I knew they had to be involved with somebody. The could either be involved with the D/K team or the C/E team. However, I know that the D/K and the C/E have been working together. Since the B/P team double crossed me, they had to run to the other side. Since I have seen no messages on this board about the D/K and the C/E team fighting, I have seen no messages calling each other names or anything of that nature, and not only did the B/P team stay caught up with me in techs, but they passed me! To include outdated techs! It only seemed to reason that the D/K and the C/E team were still together and now they have involved the B/P team. Also a comment you made in posts 155-157 led me to believe I was being conspired against. I said I knew that the D/K and the C/E team ARE working together. You made the comment that you know that me and the B/P team WERE working together. Possible a Freudian slip? And since I have almost certain proof that the B/P is allied with someone, and that someone is most likely the D/K and the C/E team, I know I'm in trouble. The B/P team must pay for their treachery. But if I only attack them, I'm sure their allies will jump in and save them so I had to stop them before they attacked me. Seeing the C/E team land infantry on your land, while being after the fact, proves my point. There is also an e-mail between the C/E team and myself that helps to prove my point. As for my ships that landed infantry behind your Korean lines, yes, proves I have been planning this for at least 4-5 turns. But like I said, I have suspected that the B/P was betraying me, and when I got mass production and flight and my allies had both, I knew for a fact they were betraying me. I didn't get the save and think "time to go to war". I have been planning it since I suspected something.

I have other e-mails from Zurichuk but I don't have this game. I don't know who is holding it up. My guess is Zurichuk is because Rubberjello has posted battle reports here. Is he working on it or am I supposed to play my turn over again?

Off topic: I think Bush was 100% right in what he did by getting rid of Saddam Hussein. I don't want to discuss it here because this topic is for another forum. If you want to see my reasons, head on over to the Ascendancy forum under the Off Topic heading with the thread "Bush or Kerry, who to vote for?

i sent it a few minutes ago but i was having problems with diplomacy (and i've only had the game an hour), the alliance thing was really screwing up and a civ declared war on me in my turn after signing a MPP!!! it was showing on the diplomacy screen as 'at war' and 'MPP' i thought it could be a submarine on goto but that couldn't happen

i would advise saving between turns

i lost 2 navy units atttacking 2 navy units

Ok, that took a long time.

Battle reports:
-Pillaged/bombed a lot of roads around the Dutch cities of Amsterdam, Arnhem, Den Helder, Utrecht, Middleburg. I also pillaged your saltpeter tile.

-Pillaged/bombed roads in Korean territory around Pusan, as well as your saltpeter source.

-Wounded a few infantry in Germany lands on top of that mountain.

-Germany lost a cruiser to a Carthage destroyer near Carthage's western coast.

Nothing else to report.

Just some worker wierdness going on here. This is the first time I've experienced it. About 90% of the time, when I interrupt my worker actions at the *beginning* of my turn (to get them the hell out of the way!!!), I get the message "This unit has already moved". Now, I know I don't get this in single play and in my other PBEMs (unless, of course, these workers have completed their actions at the end of the previous turn). Is this PBEM wierdness? Or just with this game? Anyway, it is beyond annoying. :mad:

And another wierd thing: I bombarded this Incense square last turn. It showed the craters and no roads (of course) Yet this turn Dogboy mysteriously has a road already built on it. Unless he has an uber worker with a movement of 2, that is impossible! What gives?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alliancespic001.jpg

Bremen 3 German Infantry killed. 5 Workers captured
Utrecht (German Incense) 5 Greek Infantry killed. 5 Workers captured
Amsterdam 1 German Infantry killed, 4 workers captured.
Groningen - 4 unguarded Greek Artillery captured and destroyed.

Korea:
Bombarded and killed 3 Greek infantry on Saltpeter.

The Portuguese have been bought off by the Germans. I don't know what their leader is using for brains, but it smells like pig doodoo, looks like pig doodoo, and tastes like pig......
Let's see here: If a tyrant is taking over 2/3'rds of the world while he sits back and does nothing, while his sister Civ was viciously killed in one blow....Hmmmm....do you think that just maybe...JUST MAYBE! You'll be next on the hit list??? Hmmmm???? Geee...I wonder????

Rubberjello, I have had the same thing happen in this game also. But I think it's the same with other PBEMs. What happens in these PBEMs is a lot of the turns seems to move "at the end of the turn". What I mean is do an auto move for your unit and see what it does at the end of the turn. It will take one of those extra steps and won't be able to move next turn. I have noticed some of my artillery is not making craters in your land. As for those workers, I didn't move them onto that square. I did the "build road to here" feature and the road was completed at the end of the turn. I have also had the same problem with not being able to move workers. In our always war game I tried to click on a worker at the beginning of my turn but it said it had already moved. So my guess is that's just a feature of PBEMs.

What I mean is do an auto move for your unit and see what it does at the end of the turn. It will take one of those extra steps and won't be able to move next turn.

Uhmm...I thought taking advantage of the "Goto...extra step" bug was a big no-no in PBEM games? I guess I've been missing the boat here, as I've been especially careful to avoid using any Goto commands that give me that "extra step" since it is a proven bug? At least, that was Predesad and I agreed to.

Rubberjello, I agree with you there. That's why it's not good to do goto moves in these games. I was telling you that so you could see what happens in case you didn't know. But whether we like it or not, it happens with workers. Because I'm last (Germany in this case), I see it all the time. As soon as I hit the end of turn button, a lot of roads pop up on the map and all the units go "click" and it sounds like they are all fortifying. When I stand on a mountain I can see when the roads in your lands are completed also. It's just a feature that we have to deal with.

As for workers, do you think it's a no-no to do the "build road to here" button? I use that one as well as the "build railroad to here" button all the time. That's the only automation I ever do for my workers. If you think that's a no-no then let me know and I will stop it in this game, as well as other games we are in together. It's just something I never thought of not doing.

ok not feeling too good, some infection that is spreading from throat to mouth to ears but i played my turns

just some naval exchanges, sank one of Dogboys cruisers, took some hitpoints off others

i'd like a decision also on the goto as i have used it for workers (but not for military)

Ok, I won't do the "build road to here" function anymore. However, I noticed that when Germany hit the end of turn button, about 12 or so Carthage workers moved onto a square near the city of Malaco. So it's not just the last guy who does the "second move" bug, it can be anybody.

Battle reports:
Greece:
Bombed units in Dutch city of Delft
Killed 2 guerillas by Utretch and lost one cavalry.
Killed Dutch cavalry by Groningen.
Killed Dutch cavalry by Amsterdan and captured 4 workers.
Bombed Korean land by Wonsan.
Bombed Dutch land by Amsterdam.

Germany:
Lost a battleship to English Destroyer :mad:
Bombed Carthage land near Malaco.
Lost a cavalry to Dutch guerilla near Utretch
Bombed all units in Delft to 1 hp (but with Sun Tzu does it really matter?)
Bombed Korean roads near Wonsan.
Bombed Dutch lands around a lot of southern cities.

Ok, I won't do the "build road to here" function anymore. However, I noticed that when Germany hit the end of turn button, about 12 or so Carthage workers moved onto a square near the city of Malaco. So it's not just the last guy who does the "second move" bug, it can be anybody.

it is anybody, those workers were on automate (everything was improved so basically pollution control)

Dutch: Mostly bombarded the countryside and killed 1 German Infantry. Distributed suicide pills to the millions of populace to take when the Panzers arrive.

Koreans: Bombarded two Greek Galleons that picked up their raiding force, sunk one with one of my Fighters that was within range. Bombarded Greek units and some Greek (ex-traitorous Byzantine) terrritory. Also distributed suicide pills to the population.

Worker gotos: Can we clear this up? My understanding is that since the next turn you can't really move your workers, so you really aren't getting a free turn out of them, correct? The goto bug really only affects military units as their extra move can get a defender into position earlier and is thus cheating, correct?

I was going to show a picture of the bombarded Dutch countryside which is totally ruined 4 spaces in all around...to try to ignite a squirm of conscience in the Portuguese Leader to show what his Oil (Bombers) is doing to tens of thousands of innocent (now starving) lives, but the effort would be futile. (both from the intention of it, and I couldn't figure out how to remove the cities (build orders) in the picture to give Dogboy intelligence.

Speaking of which, I accidentally hit the end turn without adjusting all my build orders. We are playing "no reloads", correct? So I just let it go.

We are playing no reloads. That's why my turns are taking about 15 minutes per civ now. Lots to do and I want to make sure I move every unit that I want to move, check city production/happiness, etc...

As for the "goto" feature. I think it is ok if you do it for workers but not for military units. It is so much easier to do the "build road to here" button as opposed to moving my workers every turn, hit the build road button, then move more workers. Just don't use it for military units.

not a very successful round

german battleship bombarded and sank off Malaca

bombarded greek stack on a mountain, then lost 3 infantry, 1 cavalry before stopping attack after decided too risky unless the RNG was kind

greek look-out frigate was also sunk

Greeks:
Bombed units in Dutch city of Delft
Bombed units in Dutch city of Amsterdam and roads around it. (bye bye oil)
Bombed Korean roads around Pusan
Bombed English battleship near Pusan

Germans:
Destroyed in Delft: Temple, Marketplace, Library, Courthouse, Harbor, many citizens
Bombed roads around Delft
Bombed roads around Arnhem
Lost a bomber to a Dutch fighter.
Shot down a Dutch interceptor!
Bombed some iron tile in Carthage lands.

I noticed something very strange this turn. Zurichuk was blessed with super transports. Somehow Zurichuk was able to magically make a bunch of transports and sail them over the Dutch lands and Korean lands. I didn't count the exact number of units I saw in Korean lands, but it looked to be around 25 or so. I don't know how many units I saw in Dutch lands because I was flying my bombers over, but he had two different stacks. Or maybe Zurichuk doesn't have magical transports. Maybe he had been planning on coming over anyway? That would explain his answer to me in the e-mail. So maybe DogBoy isn't the only warmonger around here?

The Dutch, after hearing intelligence about the bloody and rapacious Hun's new secret project that will revolutionize the Infantry state of Warfare, collectively decided to commit mass suicide in the front-line cities. This involved the destroying of some of the Worlds great Wonders. After much agonized consideration, they decided to destroy them rather than let them fall into the crazed hands of the immoral and rapacious Germans & Greeks, who would probably end up using them as latrines and brothels anyway....

Dutch:
Abandoned Arnheim
Abandoned Middleburg
Abandoned Utrecht
Abandoned Deflt
Abandoned Amsterdam
The Hanging Gardens - Destroyed!
The Great Lighthouse - Destroyed!
The Great Library - Destroyed!
Sun Tzu - Destroyed!
Newton's University - Destroyed!

Korea:
Abandoned Pusan
Misclicked on an Artillery - ready to be captured by the Greeks. :mad:

I noticed something very strange this turn. Zurichuk was blessed with super transports. Somehow Zurichuk was able to magically make a bunch of transports and sail them over the Dutch lands and Korean lands. I didn't count the exact number of units I saw in Korean lands, but it looked to be around 25 or so. I don't know how many units I saw in Dutch lands because I was flying my bombers over, but he had two different stacks. Or maybe Zurichuk doesn't have magical transports. Maybe he had been planning on coming over anyway? That would explain his answer to me in the e-mail. So maybe DogBoy isn't the only warmonger around here?

i cannot comment on this completely as it would be a huge spoiler, but at the time you declared war i had one transport landed over there, that had landed without the human concerned being aware that i had done so, can i say 'decoy' and 'luck' and 'right under someones nose' in the same sentence?

Yes, you can say that in one sentence. And if I think I know what you are thinking, then you could have agreed to what I posted in the e-mail. You instead didn't agree to it, which made me think I was right in what I was thinking the first time. Now, either I was right in what I was thinking the first time. Or, I was wrong in thinking what I was thinking the first time, and you got to thinking that your thinking wasn't going to work to your advantage, so you changed your thinking and thought you had better do a different course of action. Know what I mean?

Yes, you can say that in one sentence. And if I think I know what you are thinking, then you could have agreed to what I posted in the e-mail. You instead didn't agree to it, which made me think I was right in what I was thinking the first time. Now, either I was right in what I was thinking the first time. Or, I was wrong in thinking what I was thinking the first time, and you got to thinking that your thinking wasn't going to work to your advantage, so you changed your thinking and thought you had better do a different course of action. Know what I mean?

not sure, i guess we will have a Post Mortem at the end of the game

Hmmm....I guess I'm just slow on the uptake here. It seems Dogboy has been talking to everyone behind the scenes in this game except me? What? Do I have bad breath or startling horrific body odour or something?