Patch Suggestion MOD for Civilization 3: Conquests expansion pack
Version: 2.21 (requires 1.22 Conquest patch)


Overview:

Why "patch suggestion"? Because changes in this mod represent a group of small tweaks, which if added to original Civ3: Conquests rules, would improve game balance and fun. I tried using the conservative approach of not changing the rules too much, if not necessary, in order to keep original Civ3 flavor. In fact, this version is actually more conservative then earlier version done for original Civ3 and Play the World expansion, mostly because default rules in Conquests are much better now then before. I hope that players of this MOD will find game more fun and interesting.


Install instructions:

Just unzip the files in your Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios folder. That way, you'll get patch_suggestion.biq in Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios folder and Civilopedia.txt in newly formed Civ3\Conquests\Scenarios\patch_suggestion\Text folder. Don't forget, you need Conquests expansion pack to use this mod. It's also recommended to have 1.22 patch before starting this mod.


New in v2.21:

I allowed Celts to build Medieval Infantry once again. After playing some games with them I realized that in some cases they could really need attacker with offense of 4, even if it means sacrificing ability to build Gallic Swordsmen.

The Oracle wonder gets its price reduced from 300 to 200 shields. With old price it was very suboptimal wonder considering that it's inferior to Hanging Gardens and gets obsolete early.

Shields gained from forced labor are increased from 20 to 30 per population. It needed some boost considering that with old value it was very difficult to rush anything later in game when units and building get more expensive. On the other hand, it's not too drastic increase to unbalance early part of the game.



MOD CHANGES


Land Units:

There are several firearms infantry units that are either overpriced or have poor offense value.

Musketmen get price reduced from 60 to 50 shields, since unit is just 33% better then Pikemen, which costs 30 shields.

Riflemen get attack increased from 4 to 5 and price reduced from 80 to 70 shields. Higher attack is needed, since AI controlled civilizations usually use them for attack when having no Cavalry available. Cost is reduced to keep Musketmen to Riflemen upgrade cost same as before and for some flavor (cavalry more expensive then foot unit).

Infantry gets attack increased from 6 to 8, for similar reasons as Riflemen, which is especially important before Tanks come to play.

Guerilla gets attack increased from 6 to 8 and price reduced from 90 to 80 shields. It also gets its defense bombardment rating increased from 3 to 4. Attack is increased to compensate for higher attack of Infantry. Cost is lowered considering that it still has defense that is inferior compared to Infantry. As for bombardment rating, it was increased to compensate for higher defense rating of most offense units in industrial era (value of 3 is barely better compared to Longbowmen). With stats like this, it is essentially a Longbowmen of modern age. If you want defense you take Infantry, if defensive bombardment you take Guerilla.

Marines get defense increased from 6 to 8 and price reduced from 120 to 110 shields. Such advanced infantry unit should not have its defense as low as some guerilla. Also, it's not that much good to have price equal to a Modern Armor. Note that 110 shields is the same cost as for Modern Paratroopers.

Paratroopers get attack increased from 4 to 7. This way, both their attack and defense value are just a little bit lower then for Infantry. This is understandable, considering that airborne units just don't have so much equipment to be as effective as regular Infantry units.

Modern Paratroopers get both attack increased from 6 to 10 and defense from 11 to 13. The main reason for this is to make them a good alternative to Helicopter dropped TOW Infantry, which has attack of 12 and defense of 14. Since Paratroopers don't need Helicopters and have higher operation range, this should make them worthy.

TOW Infantry gets price reduced from 120 to 110 shields and bombardment rating increased from 6 to 8. No Infantry should be as expensive as Modern Armor. Note that 110 shields is still higher cost then for Tanks, which they can easily destroy. As for defensive bombardment, reasons are the same as for Guerilla.


Cannons get their rate of fire increased from 1 to 2 and price from 40 to 60 shields. This is done for flavor purpose (ships with cannons have rate of fire of 2), and to make Cannons more special compared to Trebuchet (not just 33% better bombard rating), considering their historical role.

Cavalry gets cost increased from 80 to 90 shields, since they are much better then Knights (50% better attack and defense). Not something just worth 10 shields difference (or 30gp upgrade).

Modern Armors get defense reduced from 16 to 14, to make Mech. Infantry more important with its defense rating of 18.

Mech. Infantry gets AI offense strategy flag removed, to force AI to make more Tanks for attack. Otherwise, before getting Modern Armor, AI controlled players would build too many Mech. Infantry and attack with them instead of Tanks.



Ships:

Curragh, the new ship added in Conquests is especially useful for making early contacts and map exploration. Unfortunately, AI controlled civilizations rarely build this useful vessel. But, by adding unload flag to Curragh and changing its AI strategy from Naval Power to Naval Transport, this ships becomes valuable asset to AI controlled civilizations too.

Privateer has bombard strength of 3, but rate of fire of 0. Sounds like a bug to me, but I could be wrong. Anyway, just to be sure, I'll increase their rate of fire from 0 to 1 in this mod. Still, note that since they have bombard range of 0, this bombardment can only be used for defensive purposes.

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer now upgrade to Destroyer. I really didn't liked having them in build queue in modern era. This should not be a problem from realism standpoint, considering that Galleons always upgraded to Transports and that now upgrade costs are 180gp per unit.

Since Cruisers upgrade to AEGIS Cruisers, these units should not have same cost of 160 shields. Otherwise you'll get upgrade cost of zero. That's why I'll decrease a cost for Cruisers to 150 shields. They weren't really worth 160 shields anyway, considering that they are just weaker Battleships/slower Destroyers, with no unique abilities at all.

With Conquests, bombard rating of all air units and most age of sail ships got boosted, it seamed quite strange to leave ships like Battleship with bombard rating of 8. That's why Battleships get bombard strength increased from 8 to 12, Cruisers get bombard strength increased from 7 to 8 and AEGIS Cruisers get bombard strength increased from 6 to 8.

Carriers get their movement decreased from 7 to 6 tiles. While modern Carriers are faster then old WWII Battleships, 7 movement points is way too much, since that makes them the fastest ships after Destroyers (faster then Cruisers).



Air units:

In Civilization, all fighter units are pretty lame bombers. Their bombard effectiveness is even worse then of catapult.

For this reason Fighters and Jet Fighters get their rate of fire increased from 1 to 2.

Jet Fighters also get their bombard rating increased from 3 to 4, since they should be better bombers then ordinary Fighters.

Stealth Fighters get their bombard rating increased from 6 to 8, so they keep their edge over Jet Fighters and too make them more cost effective when attacking some targets with low defense (then two Stealth Fighters would do more damage then one Stealth Bomber).


Lethal land bombardment is removed from Bombers, since that made them too powerful. Especially considering that AI controlled civilizations rarely built anti-air defenses.

Interception of stealth aircrafts is increased from 5% to 15% to compensate for higher defense rating of these units in Conquests. While in original Civ3, those units had defense of 0, so 5% chance of interception meant 5% of being shot down. Now with defense ratings of 5 and 6, they are much more durable. Still, even with this change chance to shot down a stealth plane is more then 3 times lower then shooting down a normal aircraft.

Cruise Missiles get their cost decreased from 60 to 40 shields, since introduction of lethal bombardment in Conquests made them less useful then before. And not to mention that for price of 2 Cruise Missiles you could buy one Radar Artillery, which can be used as many times as you like.


Download from here:

Unique Units:

In Conquests, Jaguar Warriors are 50% more expensive then before. This was done for balance purpose, but in my opinion, that opened whole can of worms, since there are other unique units that are very powerful and could need boost in cost. This is also easier done with Conquests, since unit cost doesn't need to be in multipliers of 10.

Enkidu Warriors get cost increased from 10 to 15 shields, since halved cost Spearmen could be too great advantage, especially in multiplayer games, when early rushes are common. Because of this change, I allowed Sumerians to build normal Warriors if they like. Also, similar to Jaguar Warriors which need Warrior Code, Enkidu Warriors need Bronze Working. This is for pure flavor, since Sumerians already start with Bronze Working.

Hoplites get cost increased from 20 to 25 shields. This still makes it a powerful unique unit, since Greeks get power of Pikemen for lower cost and no need of iron.

Immortals and Mounted Warriors get cost increased from 30 to 35 shields, and since these are some of best unique units available, higher cost won't make them much weaker.

Gallic Swordsmen get cost increased from 40 to 45 shields, considering that Mounted Warrior got price increased to 35 shields.

Swiss Mercenaries get cost increased from 30 to 40, since "power of gunpowder" so early should not be underestimated. This still makes them cheaper then Musketmen anyway.

Rider gets cost increased from 70 to 80 shields, since extra movement point is very powerful bonus for Knight type unit.

Ansar Warrior cost increased from 60 to 70 shields, for similar reasons as Rider.

Siphai cost increased from 100 to 105 shields, to compensate for higher cost of Cavalry.

Dromon cost is increased from 30 to 40 shields, since they are very powerful naval unit for that time. With their attack and bombard ratings they could even destroy Caravels and Galleons without problem. Plus, you could use them for bombardment of land units.


Some other changes to unique units:

Chasqui Scout gets cost decreased from 20 to 15 shields. With old 20 shields cost, it was too expensive for a Scout and too expensive for a military unit.

Jaguar Warrior, in order to not get outshined by Chasqui Scout, gets an extra hit point in its heath bar. This should make them a little bit more powerful, but not as powerful as when they had 10 shields cost before Conquests.

Zulu Impi gets AI offense flag removed. This will make AI use Impi more often for pillaging and troop escort instead of suicide attacks.

Javelin Throwers get AI defense strategy flag removed, since that made AI controlled players use them for defense, which is not so good considering that there is 33% less expensive Spearmen.

Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel.
But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon.

Keshik gets bombard rating of 2 with rate of fire 1 and range of 0 (defensive first strike). It goes with flavor (mounted archer) and makes this unique unit a little bit more worthy as it should be. Also, it gains ability to ignore movement cost on Volcano tiles, since these tiles are almost the same as mountain tiles.

Musketeers changed to have better focus on offense. They get both attack and defense of 4. Also they get cost reduced to 50 shields like Musketmen. With this, they are closer to their original version before Conquests, just a little bit more powerful (but still balanced).

Conquistadors get price reduced from 70 to 60 shields. Considering the costs of Gallic Swordsmen and added changes to Keshik, slightly lower price should not be a problem. It also goes with flavor, considering that it is a light cavalry, which means that it isn't supposed to be more expensive then heavy cavalry (knights).

Like Cannons, Hwach'a gets its rate of fire increased from 1 to 2 and cost from 40 to 60 shields.

F-15 gets their bombard rating increased from 6 to 8, to mimic the changes done to Stealth Fighter.



Improvements and Wonders:

Coastal Fortress naval defense is increased from 8 to 16. This was done in order to make chance of destroying Coastal Fortress with Frigate similar to chance of destroying Walls with the Catapult (around 30%).

Ancient Cavalry has its attack decreased from 3 to 2. That should make this unit not too dominating in ancient age, while still keeping the edge over normal Horsemen. After all, Statue of Zeus is powerful wonder, since it can generate a lot of these powerful units and gets obsolete very late.

The Oracle wonder gets its price reduced from 300 to 200 shields. With old price it was very suboptimal wonder considering that it's inferior to Hanging Gardens and gets obsolete early.

Cure for Cancer makes two citizens content instead of one. Without this, the effect of wonder will be pretty mediocre, especially considering that there are many wonders, which are cheaper and have greater effects.



Governments:

Feudalism unit maintenance cost is changed from 3 gold per unit to standard 1 gold per unit. While Conquests were still in beta phase, Feudalism had an ability to not pay any maintenance for buildings. Obviously, that would have been very unbalancing if unit cost was not higher to compensate. Still, since now, Feudalism does not have that ability, 3 gold per unit is really not needed.

Republic's number of free units per city is changed from 3 to 2 and for metropolis from 4 to 2. I think that when maintenance cost for units were increased in Conquests the goal was too make Republic weaker then before. But, it seams that when you get cities (7+ pop), Republic is actually better then before Conquests, since if having less then 6 units per city or 8 units per metropolis (what is pretty easy to do), you paid less maintenance cost then before and earned more money. This made Republic even better then Democracy in some cases. With mentioned changes, Republic is still good as before if having 4 or less units per city, which should make it slightly more balanced.



Other:

Shields gained from forced labor are increased from 20 to 30 per population. It needed some boost considering that with old value it was very difficult to rush anything later in game when units and building get more expensive. On the other hand, it's not too drastic increase to unbalance early part of the game.

Cost of Philosophy advance is increased from 6 to 12 points. Considering that in Conquests, this advance, if first researched, gives an extra advance for free, it was just too cheap for its old price. To compensate, The Republic advance is made cheaper for the same amount (22 points instead of 28).

Fixed the bug of making Mayan leader targetable by Stealth Fighter's stealth attack.

All Artillery units, Scouts and Explorers get airlift capabilities. If Workers can be airlifted, these units need too.

Scouts and Explorers get foot unit flag, which makes them transferable by Helicopters, like it's possible with most infantry units.

Leader and King units both get airlift capabilities and ability to be transferable by Helicopters. Exempt being realistic, it can make modern regicide game more interesting.

Nice homemade patch! Me like! :D

Sounds great! I would use it, but my C3C isn't working :(.

Thanks for C3C version:goodjob:

:thanx: player1.

Btw, how the aerial city view project develops you and some other comrades made a year ago or so?

It's C3Cv1.15 compatible?

Originally posted by kettyo
:thanx: player1.

Btw, how the aerial city view project develops you and some other comrades made a year ago or so?

Well, it pretty much stoped when Ismailov stoped making workshop files.
I fixed a little size of small cities, but that's pretty much all.

And with C3C, if you use moded BIQ, you can't see areal view anyway.

Originally posted by kettyo
It's C3Cv1.15 compatible?

It is 1.00 - 1.15 fully compatible.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
And with C3C, if you use moded BIQ, you can't see areal view anyway.

Yes. Thats the thing i miss the most from Civ1.
Seeing how your cities are developing with each improvement built and seeing troops marching before the captured cities. :D

Such a great feeling...

True, Civ1 was the only game which had city view properly made.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
True, Civ1 was the only game which had city view properly made.

Yeah!
What a shame diplomacy is screwed up so much. :rolleyes:
Having proper diplomacy like brothergame Master Of Orion has Civ1 would be all time #1 IMO. :king:

Actually, with good working diplomacy i would play Civ1 until my death i think. :D

Nice, thanks.

May I suggest a possible modification? I would say you should turn on keep culture. IMO, it is much more realistic, and stops the AI from colonizing in territory you have just captured (which is VERY annoying).

There is a side-effect of decreasing modern armor defense rating to 14.

Now they could be easily destroyed by 2 attacking tow infantry.

:tank: :rocket2:

Originally posted by kettyo
There is a side-effect of decreasing modern armor defense rating to 14.

Now they could be easily destroyed by 2 attacking tow infantry.

:tank: :rocket2:

Well, they are anti-tank infantry.
Aren't they? :D


EDIT:
And that's with still losing 110 shields for one TOW that was defeated during attack.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well, they are anti-tank infantry.
Aren't they? :D

Didn't say it's bad just noted. :cooool:

Is this mod with (some) of the changes from earlier Player1 mods?
I believe you had slightly larger armies, better organized ship movement, and some other things, which elude me.

Originally posted by Red Boxer
Is this mod with (some) of the changes from earlier Player1 mods?
I believe you had slightly larger armies, better organized ship movement, and some other things, which elude me.

It is similar, but not with exactly same changes.
Mostly, beacuse C3C is much different then vanilla Civ3.

For example, in PtW version of mod, modern ships got +1 to movement, but in C3C since Destroyer get 8 movemet points, and Frigates have 5 movement point, similar thing isn't implemented.

For details, check much sig, and compare different versions if you like.


EDIT:
No, mod never had larger armies.
Nor it's needed considering how powerful armies are in C3C.

Version 2.01 is out!

Check first post for details.

Version 2.02 is out!

New in v2.02:

Solution for balancing Statue of Zeus has changed. Now, Ancient Cavalry keeps its extra hit point, but instead has attack decreased from 3 to 2. That should make this unit not too dominating in ancient age, while still keeping the edge over normal Horsemen.

Coastal Fortress naval defense is increased from 8 to 16. This was done in order to make chance of destroying Coastal Fortress with Frigate similar to chance of destroying Walls with the Catapult (around 30%).

[wrong post]
i was stupid :crazyeye:

(Added by HOT Elite troops are 6 HP and resources never move.) I have also made sugar,tropical fruit & tobacco a luxury resource for trading purposes. Curragh now transports!)

Later

HOT

(UPDATE..I have made it so you can have a few more civs on tiny, small, standard & large maps!)*All Civs have unique colors*

Enjoy!

Well, for basic game, I think that 5hp are enough for elites.
On the other hand, it does give some strategic death when you are torned around keeping 6hp elite or upgrading it too 4hp veteran.

As for having extra luxuries, it could make game too easy, since it makes much easier to have 8 or even more different luxures.

One warning about Curraghs with transport capacity of 1.
AI opponent will never use such ships for settlers transport.
That has probably something to do with AI having all settlers escorted with 1 defender.

Yes...good points...I will see with the testing of luxuries. The transport of 1 will be cool for invading puposes... Well, it's a test anyways...LOL!

Later

HOT

I never noticed this before....Are you saying if I upgrade a unit it drops down to vetern if it was elite? Cool...lol!

Later

HOT

Yes!

Ok...I will now play some games and test it...Let you know how it goes. Thanks for all your hard work. By the way you didn't write the patch_suggestion line under scenario options so it can load your text file. I have fixed this in my test version of your mod.

Later

HOT

Actually, it will load it even without that line, since folder has the same name as the biq file.

Thanks for the info. I never knew that. So what other changes are you pondering?

Later

HOT

For know, i'm toying with having Frigates, Man-O-War and Privateers obsolete with Destroyers (by making them upgrade to Destroyer, but remove upgrade flag).

The trick is that this solution works only for those with 1.12 patch or greater (prior to that you could still upgrade with Shift-U).

Some news:
I have next version (2.1) in the works.
For now, following changes are included:

-Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer become obsolete with Combustion (can't be built but don't upgrade).
Note: For this too work properly you need at least 1.12 patch.
-Guerilla changed to 8(4)/6/1 (higher attack then before).
-Paratroopers changed to 6/9/1 and Mod. Paratroopers to 10/13/1 (higher defense for modern and slightly lower attack for old one, to signify its defensive nature)

I won't release it just yet, I will probably wait for next patch too see if there are some other changes needed to be included.

Version 2.1 is out!


New in v2.1:

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer become obsolete with Destroyers (can't be built nor upgrade). This was accomplished by linking them to Destroyers, but with unselected upgrade flag. Note that for this feature to work properly you need to have at least v1.12 patch (otherwise you could still upgrade them to Destroyers by Shift-U).

Guerilla gets attack increased from 7 to 8. That way, it becomes competitive unit even when having Rubber.

Modern Paratroopers get defense increased from 12 to 13. I figured out that a slightly higher defense was needed, making it just a little bit lower compared to TOW Infantry, in same way as defense of Paratrooper is compared to Infantry.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer become obsolete with Destroyers (can't be built nor upgrade). This was accomplished by linking them to Destroyers, but with unselected upgrade flag.

Does this lead to the AI having huge fleets of obsolete sail ships even in the times of battleships and AEGIS cruisers, or does it actually realize to disband the useless ships?

Not sure.

But it does prevent them from building a new ones.

Hey!! I click on the download link and I get a 'page cannot be found' error!!! :cry:

I've reuploaded the mod.

Now it should work.

player1fanatic:
Your changes sound good and reasonable for me. I'll give it a try!

I feel boosting feudalism is unnecessary.
It's quite powerful even as default, combined with 'massive city placement'.

Originally posted by kettyo
I feel boosting feudalism is unnecessary.
It's quite powerful even as default, combined with 'massive city placement'.

The problem with this government is that your civ is in a republic when you get feudalism. Changing from a low warweariness gov. with bonus commerce to a low warweariness gov. without bonus commerce just ain't right.
I suggest setting the warweariness of Feudalism to none while keeping the maintenance at 3/unit.


*Oh, and about the balance changes of this mod:
Decreasing defense of Modern armor is not a good idea.
By decreasing to 14, the AI will have SERIOUS problems attacking a human player. Even if the human player only has TOWs and artillery, he can just sit back, soften up the modern armor and then pick them off with the TOWs one by one.
A high defense for modern armor encourages quick assaults straight towards enemy land and makes for fastpaced and fun gameplay.

*I also think Bombers should be nerfed. (not nessesarily remove lethal land bombard. I would rather suggest a Rate of fire of 2 and a bombard rating of 10).

*The ancient cavalry should be 3.1.2, +1 hitpoint IMHO.
Changing attack to 2 makes them useless since you get them in late ancient age.

*About musketeers... I would actually like to change these to something different than that nobrainer +1 defense.
Seeing the uses of the Musketeers weapons historically, they were more mobile versions of the musket and thus, better offensively.
So I'd say musketeers should be 4.4.1 Bombard strength 2, rate of fire 1, range 0. With a cost of 50.
I tried a game with the french when using this modified musketeer and it worked great. Definitely not an underpowered unit. And also, a very interesting unit tactically. Especially since I didn't have military tradition when my enemies came charging at me with Cavalry.

*Chasqui scout.. How about a 1.1.3 ignore mountains and hills, cost 20.. No?.. No?? I think they would be quite interesting this way.

*Ok, dont FRIKKIN' decrease the cost of Conquistadors!!
Seeing as any strategic or luxury recource within 5 tiles from spanish territory can be pillaged WITHIN ONE TURN (!), They are indeed the best pillagers in the whole game.
And now that they come with astronomy instead of navigation, they are quite effective as regular attackers as well. Basically, nothing is safe, no matter how far away it is. The high cost and low attack justify this pretty nicely IMHO.

War weariness of feudalism should remain IMO to make it harder to conquer everybody in feudalism in single-player.

War weariness of feudalism should remain IMO to make it harder to conquer everybody in feudalism in single-player.

*Oh, and about the balance changes of this mod:
Decreasing defense of Modern armor is not a good idea.
By decreasing to 14, the AI will have SERIOUS problems attacking a human player. Even if the human player only has TOWs and artillery, he can just sit back, soften up the modern armor and then pick them off with the TOWs one by one.
A high defense for modern armor encourages quick assaults straight towards enemy land and makes for fastpaced and fun gameplay.

On the other hand, it encourages human players just to build ton of Modern Armors without wasting shields for Mech. Infatry (faster and just slightly lower defense).

Still, it's not high difference between defense of 14 and defense of 16. So it does't really add some great advantage to human.

On the other hand, difference between defense of 14 and 18 is big enough to promote use of Mech. Infanties as support.

And as far as I've seen, even AI uses that sometimes.

The problem with this government is that your civ is in a republic when you get feudalism. Changing from a low warweariness gov. with bonus commerce to a low warweariness gov. without bonus commerce just ain't right.
I suggest setting the warweariness of Feudalism to none while keeping the maintenance at 3/unit.

Well, you are not supposed to change from Republic to Feudalism.
You go in Fedusalim when you were unable to have effective Repubic. Like when you have not enough luxuries and your cities are up to 6 pop (then unhappiness and mil. support would kill republic).

In those conditions it's even better then Monarchy due to better mil. support. I just moded it to increase it's strenght (good military upkeep for rural civs), without removing its weaknesses (needs to be rural, WW, no commerce bonus).

I though at one moment to make it 1/gp support, no WW government, but it that case it would be some sort of "upgraded Despotism", which I would not like.


*I also think Bombers should be nerfed. (not nessesarily remove lethal land bombard. I would rather suggest a Rate of fire of 2 and a bombard rating of 10).

That's something to be put into consideration. I'm still not sure should I change anything.

But, I would rather go to no leathal land (otehrwise it's weaker then Artillery). And in that case I would remove it from Stl. Bomber too (since they can't be shot down by almost anything).

*About musketeers... I would actually like to change these to something different than that nobrainer +1 defense.
Seeing the uses of the Musketeers weapons historically, they were more mobile versions of the musket and thus, better offensively.
So I'd say musketeers should be 4.4.1 Bombard strength 2, rate of fire 1, range 0. With a cost of 50.
I tried a game with the french when using this modified musketeer and it worked great. Definitely not an underpowered unit. And also, a very interesting unit tactically. Especially since I didn't have military tradition when my enemies came charging at me with Cavalry.

Well, I just want to keep them close to original.

But in case of building 4/4/1 unit, I would remove defensive bombardment and choose price of 50 shields.

*Ok, dont FRIKKIN' decrease the cost of Conquistadors!!
Seeing as any strategic or luxury recource within 5 tiles from spanish territory can be pillaged WITHIN ONE TURN (!), They are indeed the best pillagers in the whole game.
And now that they come with astronomy instead of navigation, they are quite effective as regular attackers as well. Basically, nothing is safe, no matter how far away it is. The high cost and low attack justify this pretty nicely IMHO.

It's interesing how people on one side shout make Conquistadors better and on another don't make it better.

Still I think that 60 shields price is just abot right.
Compared to Keshik, it's more mobile, comes later in tech tree, but with worse attack and no def. bombardment.

By the way, Explorers are great pillagers too.
3 times less expensive and expendable.


*Chasqui scout.. How about a 1.1.3 ignore mountains and hills, cost 20.. No?.. No?? I think they would be quite interesting this way.

That is interesting proposal.
Only question that remains is: Overpowered or not?
I think that it could even be just plain 1/1/3, cost 20, normal movment. That would mean 3 tiles on open, 1 on mountain and 2 in all other cases.




EDIT:
So much posts in one way.

1. 15 maybe, not 14.

2.

3. Seriously? I'm quite sure they would still be powerful even at a Rate of fire of 2. Because they still have lethal bombard.
Bombers are definitely too powerful at the moment. They have to be nerfed in some way.

4. Well, the original musketeers are 3.4.1 from vanilla Civ3:).
If you make musketeers have 4.4.1 then dont remove the defensive bombard. Too weak otherwise..

5. Whatever.. I gotta try some more games with the Spanish..

6. To keep some of the fluff you know. An Off:1, Def:1 with a cost of 20 shields ain't too overwhelming.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
1. 15 maybe, not 14

I played with this for a looong time, and I really think it's not big deal.

TOW knocking 1hp from Modern Armor (14 def): 46,2%
TOW knocking 1hp from Modern Armor (16 def): 42.8%
Effective difference around 8%

Average number of shields taken by Bomber (14 def): 1.38
Average number of shields taken by Bomber (16 def): 1.29
Effective difference around 8%

Originally posted by Dogmeat
3. Seriously? I'm quite sure they would still be powerful even at a Rate of fire of 2. Because they still have lethal bombard.
Bombers are definitely too powerful at the moment. They have to be nerfed in some way.

Well, I'm still considering what to do.
But I would rather not want to lower their RoF.
Makes them then barely better then F-15.
And would make bombing cities much more difficult (max 2hp taken).

Originally posted by Dogmeat
4. Well, the original musketeers are 3.4.1 from vanilla Civ3:).
If you make musketeers have 4.4.1 then dont remove the defensive bombard. Too weak otherwise..

I don't think that 4.4.1 without DB is weak.
But, you are right, even with DB it isn't overpowering.

Hmm...
I'll think about it.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
5. Whatever.. I gotta try some more games with the Spanish..

Just look what they did in AU mod (from Apolyton forums).
They gave him both defense of 3 and cost of 60.
Too much if you ask me.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
6. To keep some of the fluff you know. An Off:1, Def:1 with a cost of 20 shields ain't too overwhelming.

Fluff is nice, but moving 3 tiles on mountains with expansionistic civ is a little bit too much.

Hmm...
When I think about it, movement of 3 tiles itself makes great pillagers (move in, pillage, move out).
Currently, I'm not sure how balanced it is.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
you are not supposed to change from Republic to Feudalism.
You go in Fedusalim when you were unable to have effective Repubic. Like when you have not enough luxuries and your cities are up to 6 pop (then unhappiness and mil. support would kill republic).

Or more often when you go for conquest/domination victory: 5 free units per town + monarchylike economy. It's very powerful.

With massive city tactic, you know, placing lots of 1-2 sized towns closed together at some remote territory (tundra is perfect) creating 'unit factories'. That way, each one providing 5 free units, you could have almost as huge army as you have the capacity and time to build.

Feudalism is very effective this way.
3gpt/unit is good to make you defend your 'unit factories' harder.
Other way your feudalism would collapse.
With 1gpt/unit even this is more little problem.
Feudalism with 1gpt/unit is unstoppable.

The AI is no match even with 3gpt/unit though. ;)

double post

triple post

grrr... :mad:

3gpt/unit is good to make you defend your 'unit factories' harder.

Well, I changed this one just to make transition more smooth and not drastical when you start getting cities.

Of course WW can always make problems if there are too many wars.

EDIT:
Something about nerfed attack of Ancient Cavalry:
-Statue of Zaus is cheap wonder
-It can be got early if you try
-AC with attack of 3 and extra HP is comparable to knight

With attack of 2:
-It's still durable because of extra defense and HP
-It's not bad attacker due to extra HP
-It's not overpowered

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well, I changed this one just to make transition more smooth and not drastical when you start getting cities.

When you start getting cities you build settler and build a new remote town for 5 more free unit. That's what feudalism is all about.

Removing the ultra high extra upkeep you remove the essence of this govt form. :)

Under feudalism you should not have any units over the free amount. Because it's so easy to make so many free units.

When you start getting cities you build settler and build a new remote town for 5 more free unit. That's what feudalism is all about.

That was my favorite tactic for long drawned Despotism wars.
But, that surealy didn't make Despotsim a good government.

But feudalism, unlike despotism, doesn't suffer from economy penalties. So you can build big productive cities as well when having good terrain. A good opportunity to crush your neighbors...

Sure, I just say that if it is easy to make new cities then it's no difference would you put 3gp cost of 1gp cost.

Anyway, when cost starts getting higher you know that you need to switch to something else.
With 3gp version it will just happen a little bit earlier.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
With 3gp version it will just happen a little bit earlier.

Losing your 'freeunit' towns will ruin your economy earlier but i like this threat. :)

Well, I think that Feudalism already pays enough with having WW and no trade bonus.

It's not like that it will become unbalanced or something.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well, I think that Feudalism already pays enough with having WW and no trade bonus.

It's not like that it will become unbalanced or something.

I think it's a bit unbalanced this way.
But it's a matter of taste.
;)

Plans for next version:

Inca Scout cost decreased from 20 to 15 shields
Inca Scout gets old movment bonuses (hills and mountains only)
Jaguar Warrior gets an extra HP

Rider cost increased from 70 to 80
Ansar Warrior cost increased from 60 to 70
Cavalry cost increased from 80 to 90
Siphai cost increased from 100 to 105

Celts can't build Medieval Infantry anymore (Galic Swordsmen is better)
Changing Musketeers to 4(2).4.1, cost 50

Dromon cost increased from 30 to 40
Dromon upgrades to Frigate
Galley upgrades to Caravel
Byzantines can build Galley (only way not to break upgrade chain)

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer upgrade to Destroyer (for real)

Cruise Missiles cost decreased from 60 to 40 shields

Removed lethal land bombardment from Bombers
Increased interception of stealth aircrafts from 5% to 15%

I see three logical breaks in upgrade chains:
Trebuchets should not upgrade to cannons
Cavalry style units should not upgrade to tanks or other motorized units.
Sail ships should not upgrade to steam or combustion powered vessels.

As an alternative, costs for those upgrades should be dramatically increased.

Actually if I remember my American history correctly were Calvary not upgraded to mechanized Calvary (tanks) in the real world? I believe they were sent to fort nox and after being trained in the use/maintenance of the tank and in tank warfare tactics, exchanged their horses for a tank. The same thing goes for all the other stuff you mentioned.

What you have to remember is that the unit is not made up entirely of the weapon, but that there are infact people wielding the weapon. And those people can be trained to use different weapons, especially when the new ones are not really all that different from the original ones. (Think about it, a steam powered ship is still a ship, a cannon is still a long range bombardment weapon, ect).

Originally posted by morikaweb
Actually if I remember my American history correctly were Calvary not upgraded to mechanized Calvary (tanks) in the real world? I believe they were sent to fort nox and after being trained in the use/maintenance of the tank and in tank warfare tactics, exchanged their horses for a tank. The same thing goes for all the other stuff you mentioned.

What you have to remember is that the unit is not made up entirely of the weapon, but that there are infact people wielding the weapon. And those people can be trained to use different weapons, especially when the new ones are not really all that different from the original ones. (Think about it, a steam powered ship is still a ship, a cannon is still a long range bombardment weapon, ect).

And exactly that is the reason why I think, some upgrades should just not happen or should be very cost intensive.
A good sailor not automatically is a good steamboat captain. A good rider is not automatically a good tank commander or very skilled with the cannon. A good trebuchet constructor might miss the special mathematics he would need for the ballistics of the artillery.
In all these cases the people would have to be completely retrained, would almost have to forget everything the knew and would have had to learn completely new characteristics of the new weapon system.
Of course, all of that could be done and has been done... but it took time and money to do so.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
I see three logical breaks in upgrade chains:
Trebuchets should not upgrade to cannons

Which makes them more useless.
Not gonna happen.
Still considering that in my MOD Cannons cost 60, upgrade is "just" 90gp.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
Cavalry style units should not upgrade to tanks or other motorized units.

Ok, espeicaly considering that prices are almost the same and increase, which tripled increase in power.


Originally posted by Commander Bello
Sail ships should not upgrade to steam or combustion powered vessels.

I was for this at first, but consdering that new planned Dromon upgrade to Frigate, some of my old solutions won't work.

So there will be upgrades to Destroyer.

But look at the cost: 180gp per unit!

Version 2.11 is out!


New in v2.11:


Cavalry gets cost increased from 80 to 90 shields, since they are much better then Knights (50% better attack and defense). Not something just worth 10 shields difference (or 30gp upgrade).

Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer now upgrade to Destroyer. While I liked the option of making them "obsolete", it didn't worked well with changes I made to Dromon upgrade path. Also, this should not be a problem from realism standpoint, considering that Galleons always upgraded to Transports and that now upgrade costs are 180gp per unit.

Lethal land bombardment is removed from Bombers, since that made them too powerful. Especially considering that AI controlled civilizations rarely built anti-air defenses.

Interception of stealth aircrafts is increased from 5% to 15% to compensate for higher defense rating of these units in Conquests. While in original Civ3, those units had defense of 0, so 5% chance of interception meant 5% of being shot down. Now with defense ratings of 5 and 6, they are much more durable. Still, even with this change chance to shot down a stealth plane is more then 3 times lower then shooting down a normal aircraft.

Cruise Missiles get their cost decreased from 60 to 40 shields, since introduction of lethal bombardment in Conquests made them less useful then before. And not to mention that for price of 2 Cruise Missiles you could buy one Radar Artillery, which can be used as many times as you like.


Chasqui Scout gets cost decreased from 20 to 15 shields. With old 20 shields cost, it was too expensive for a Scout and too expensive for a military unit. Because of this change, I returned to Chasqui Scout original movement bonuses (no penalties on hills, mountains and volcanoes).

Jaguar Warrior, in order to not get outshined by Chasqui Scout, gets an extra hit point in its heath bar. This should make them a little bit more powerful, but not as powerful as when they had 10 shields cost before Conquests.

Medieval Infantry is removed from Celtic build queue. This was done so that Celts could build Gallic Swordsmen for a longer period of time. And Gallic Swordsmen is better then Medieval Infantry.

Rider gets cost increased from 70 to 80 shields, since extra movement point is very powerful bonus for Knight type unit.

Ansar Warrior cost increased from 60 to 70 shields, for similar reasons as Rider.

Siphai cost increased from 100 to 105 shields, to compensate for higher cost of Cavalry.

Musketeers changed to have better focus on offense. They get both attack and defense of 4. Also they get cost reduced to 50 shields like Musketmen. With this, they are closer to their original version before Conquests, just a little bit more powerful (but still balanced). Also, since they got increased attack they get AI offense flag restored.

Dromon cost is increased from 30 to 40 shields, since they are very powerful naval unit for that time. With their attack and bombard rating they could even destroy Caravels and Galleons without problem. Plus you could use them for bombard of land units.

Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel.
But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon.

Player1fanatic,

those changes look good so far. Still, I think differently about the upgrade of the naval units, but well, it's your mod, isn't it? :)

Have you ever thought about making the Dromon the Barbarian sea unit? I've tested it in one or two games and must say, woooow... makes early sea exploration a real adventure! (in combination with eliminating the defense bonus for water tiles)

Maybe that's a little bit too powerful.

Like swaping Warriors with Swordsmen.

From my experiences, I don't think it would be too powerful.

It makes early seafaring very dangerous, that's right. But that way, the early exploration of the world (think about the effect of the Great Library!) is limited for all civs.
So, it forces you to raid the coastal Barbarian villages as soon as you spot them.
I like it.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Dromon now upgrades to Frigate, since it's too useful to become obsolete with Caravel.
But, since this breaks upgrade chain of transport based vessels, to compensate I allowed Byzantines to build Galley if they like. That way even Byzantine Curraghs upgrade to Galleys and then to Caravels, while Dromons upgrade to Frigate. Also, this way if you really want to get transport quickly you can build cheaper Galley instead of Dromon.

How about removing upgrade paths from Dromon?
Will this make them too powerful?
I think you should be able to build them even after Magnetism because they are quite effective as 'Frigate-hunters' with their low cost.

...Also, don't increase their cost. This will make the Byzantines less effective at colonizing other islands on, say, and archipelago map. That is wrong. And naval units are supposed to be dominating because they make less impact on the game than land units.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Musketeers changed to have better focus on offense. They get both attack and defense of 4. Also they get cost reduced to 50 shields like Musketmen. With this, they are closer to their original version before Conquests, just a little bit more powerful (but still balanced). Also, since they got increased attack they get AI offense flag restored.

Yay! I see you walk the bright path player1 fanatic!
However, if you've ditched the defensive bombard, please put it back. They are too weak otherwise.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer now upgrade to Destroyer. While I liked the option of making them "obsolete", it didn't worked well with changes I made to Dromon upgrade path. Also, this should not be a problem from realism standpoint, considering that Galleons always upgraded to Transports and that now upgrade costs are 180gp per unit.


Hmm, ok. But why the Privateer? :p
It's useful for hunting down transports.. Or Nuclear Subs, stalking your territory.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
How about removing upgrade paths from Dromon?
Will this make them too powerful?
I think you should be able to build them even after Magnetism because they are quite effective as 'Frigate-hunters' with their low cost.

I think that would be too much.
And from realism standpoint, why would anybody build Dromon with Frigates around.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
...Also, don't increase their cost. This will make the Byzantines less effective at colonizing other islands on, say, and archipelago map. That is wrong. And naval units are supposed to be dominating because they make less impact on the game than land units.

Did I mentioned that Byzantines can build Galleys if they like?
Good for quick colonization.

Originally posted by Dogmeat
Yay! I see you walk the bright path player1 fanatic!
However, if you've ditched the defensive bombard, please put it back. They are too weak otherwise.

It's still there.


Originally posted by Dogmeat
Hmm, ok. But why the Privateer? :p
It's useful for hunting down transports.. Or Nuclear Subs, stalking your territory.

True, they could have some uses.
But, to me it just didn't felt right to have those ships in build queue in modern era.

And hunting down Subs with Privateers just sound weird.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
I think that would be too much.
And from realism standpoint, why would anybody build Dromon with Frigates around.

Because they have greek fire! Seriously, will this make the player avoid magnetism for as long as possible, trying to build an armada of Dromons in the meantime so they can endure the onslaught of Frigates? If so, then this probably needs some changing.

See, I had this idea the other day about how to rework naval combat. Now Frigates, seeing as they have trouble taking down Galleons and even Caravels I would opt to make them 3.3.5 and leave the other middle ages and ancient age ships unmodified. What about Man-O-War then? well it would be 5.3.5. So with these changes, the Dromon-Frigate upgrade is completely appropriate.
However, since frigates now are more powerful, you have to improve Ironclads to say, 6.7.3

But then, you'd have to improve the other industrial and modern ships so that the Ironclads can't go about freely against steelships.. But It's too troublesome to write down recommended changes until I know you've adopted my idea or not (right about now, it feels like I have to go make a mod myself but that too is too troublesome :p).

Oh and another good thing with these changes is that ships become slightly more resistant to artillery and bombers due to increased defense.. That's a good thing right?

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Did I mentioned that Byzantines can build Galleys if they like?
Good for quick colonization.


Ohh, maybe you did.. Very well then. I still don't think they should cost 40 shields, they are naval units. They can't capture cities. +1 offense on a naval unit won't ever impact the game as much as say, Immortals.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
And hunting down Subs with Privateers just sound weird.

Peacetime subhunting of course.;)

Originally posted by Dogmeat
Because they have greek fire! Seriously, will this make the player avoid magnetism for as long as possible, trying to build an armada of Dromons in the meantime so they can endure the onslaught of Frigates? If so, then this probably needs some changing.

See, I had this idea the other day about how to rework naval combat. Now Frigates, seeing as they have trouble taking down Galleons and even Caravels I would opt to make them 3.3.5 and leave the other middle ages and ancient age ships unmodified. What about Man-O-War then? well it would be 5.3.5. So with these changes, the Dromon-Frigate upgrade is completely appropriate.
However, since frigates now are more powerful, you have to improve Ironclads to say, 6.7.3

But then, you'd have to improve the other industrial and modern ships so that the Ironclads can't go about freely against steelships.. But It's too troublesome to write down recommended changes until I know you've adopted my idea or not (right about now, it feels like I have to go make a mod myself but that too is too troublesome :p).

Oh and another good thing with these changes is that ships become slightly more resistant to artillery and bombers due to increased defense.. That's a good thing right?

You see?
Just to make one little change you need to maka a ton of other changes.

I really don't want that.


Originally posted by Dogmeat Ohh, maybe you did.. Very well then. I still don't think they should cost 40 shields, they are naval units. They can't capture cities. +1 offense on a naval unit won't ever impact the game as much as say, Immortals. [/B]

That's not really +1 to attack.
That's +100% attack and 66% of Frigate bombard in ancient age.

Compared to +33% attack for Immortals (and they had cost of 35 shields here).

Ahh, I see, so UU's aren't meant to make a big difference in your MOD.. Seriously, there are far better units to nerf than Dromons. I played as the Byzantines once on a continents map and I think I built something like 3-4 Dromons, sinking about 1 Frigate with those and maybe a Galley or two..

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
You see?
Just to make one little change you need to maka a ton of other changes.

Ok, I take that as an insult..

Actually, Dromons do make a big difference even in my mod, with price of 40 shields.

Much greater then one Man-O-War, for example.

And will make even greater difference considering that they could be built after the Astronomy.

I played as the Byzantines once on a continents map and I think I built something like 3-4 Dromons, sinking about 1 Frigate with those and maybe a Galley or two..

Try using them for bombard of land units in coastal area, and you'll know why are they so powerful.

Y'know what still frosts my delicate parts of anatomy? The fact that if you build an Army early, and populate it with the best troops that money can buy, there's no way that the army can be unloaded or the individual units within upgraded.

Player 1, Any chance of addressing this? After all, an Army Group really represents leadership and a logistics network that enables units to fight together.

Unfortunately, that's something that can't be changed by modding.

I think it is good as it is, armies would get two much power, if you can unload units and upgrade them.It would be a no-brainer to use armies everywhere and always take the most advanced units.Another problem would be the AI, which surely would have problems to use the upgrade possibilty (they even have problems to use armies correct as they are).

What about giving each race a second civ-specific unit, or adding abilities to the existing unique units? An example would be giving the Greeks Triremes, the Roman Legion the ability to construct roads and fortifications, etc...

Version 2.2 is out!

Only new thing here is that it's 1.22 patch compatible.
And that means implementing all 1.22 tweaks.

I'm going to download the 1.22 version, but make a few changes (which include turning lethal bombard back on).

Good job player1 fanatic; its obvious an incredible amount of thought went into this mod and the impacts one change would have on another. Firaxis could learn a lot from this and would do well to implement many of these changes in their own patches.

thanks

What about changing something with the radar towers? I hate these things. Their whole existence is meaningless to me. The AI uses them like crazy and I build one NEVER. I've made a mod where the radar tower takes longer to build (8 turns) and it is soo much better. But maybe an increase in their purpose might also make them better to build since an increase in turns only makes them that more stupid to build. I wouldn't mind getting rid of these meaningless contraptions all together. But what do you think?

Well I think that it has more something to lazines of human player compared to AI one.

25% bonus on attak and defense can be beneficial.
But, human are usually on offense in that era so RT are not priority to them (and they still kill worker).

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
Well I think that it has more something to lazines of human player compared to AI one.

25% bonus on attak and defense can be beneficial.
But, human are usually on offense in that era so RT are not priority to them (and they still kill worker).

But at the time when RTs are available, workers should be in surplus.

If placed correctly, a radar tower (in combination with civil defense) makes every city a fortress. Very hard to get through such a line.

Version 2.21 is posted (download from the top of the thread).


New in v2.21:

I allowed Celts to build Medieval Infantry once again. After playing some games with them I realized that in some cases they could really need attacker with offense of 4, even if it means sacrificing ability to build Gallic Swordsmen.

The Oracle wonder gets its price reduced from 300 to 200 shields. With old price it was very suboptimal wonder considering that it's inferior to Hanging Gardens and gets obsolete early.

Shields gained from forced labor are increased from 20 to 30 per population. It needed some boost considering that with old value it was very difficult to rush anything later in game when units and building get more expensive. On the other hand, it's not too drastic increase to unbalance early part of the game.

Not sure if I like everything in this patch...but I may need to test it out :)

Anyways, a few fixes I have been pondering:

In Fuedalism, workers are free (actually, I think this is what was originally designed...but they couldn't make it work right)

Trade Territory map goes to map making(another think I assume they planned but couldn't make work)

New SMALL wonder for Ironclads:
Master Shipyard - Req a harbor in town it is built. Acts like an Offshore platform (with pollution) & gives that city a free harbor.

Modern paratroopers changed to Special Forces:
12(12).12.1 Amphibious w/paratrooping
Marines may upgrade to SF

Tow moves 2

Privateers should be 3(3).1.x with NO range. I really don't want them bombarding my improvements all of the time.

Facism allows a new upgrade of the privateer to Pirate ship with better stats. Maybe a small wonder that makes suicide bombers w/hidden nationality for facists only.

Airports, jet fighters and bombers moved to Advanced Flight.

I think thats it. :)

Originally posted by Kiech
In Fuedalism, workers are free (actually, I think this is what was originally designed...but they couldn't make it work right)

Not sure is this possibile.
You could make workers cost no upkeep, but I don't think you can make it government specific.

Originally posted by Kiech
Trade Territory map goes to map making(another think I assume they planned but couldn't make work)

I don't think that separating World Map from Territory Map can be done in editor.


Originally posted by Kiech
[B]New SMALL wonder for Ironclads:
Master Shipyard - Req a harbor in town it is built. Acts like an Offshore platform (with pollution) & gives that city a free harbor.

Modern paratroopers changed to Special Forces:
12(12).12.1 Amphibious w/paratrooping
Marines may upgrade to SF

Tow moves 2

Airports, jet fighters and bombers moved to Advanced Flight.

This all could work it editor.
Although i wouldn't add anythin in my mod, since I use more conservative approach when modding.


Originally posted by Kiech
Privateers should be 3(3).1.x with NO range. I really don't want them bombarding my improvements all of the time.

You would be suprised to know that this is already how they work from C3C (no range bombard).


Originally posted by Kiech
[B]Facism allows a new upgrade of the privateer to Pirate ship with better stats. Maybe a small wonder that makes suicide bombers w/hidden nationality for facists only.

I don't think that government specific unit upgrades are possibile.
On the other hand, the other wonder idea could work.

I pointed out the privateer because you said you wanted to change the range to 1.

The Pirate ship wouldn't require you to be Facisit, but rather be a prereq, sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by player1 fanatic
I allowed Celts to build Medieval Infantry once again. After playing some games with them I realized that in some cases they could really need attacker with offense of 4, even if it means sacrificing ability to build Gallic Swordsmen.[/SIZE]

How about just make Gallics upgrade to guerillas?

In order to do that, ties to normal upgrades need to be sewered.

And that means that warriors won't be able to upgrade to Gallics, if this was done.

Hmm...is it possible to create a new unit, entitled something like 'serf', that acts like a worker but is gov. specific? This way you could make them dirt cheap under Feudalism. Alternatively, you could have a wonder specific to the Feudal advance that churned out serfs. Ah, the possibilities
:king:

We need someone to program the game for that, I would think...plus Sids permission. Too bad.

Wow, this is a great mod! I was thinking about making a tweaked version of C3C for myself, but I won't have to (much ;)) with this! Thanks! :goodjob:


Speaking of which, here are some notes from my own 'tweaksearch':

-Lower spy costs for almost all actions. Spying is just WAY too expensive to make it of any real value.

-Policeman job reduces corruption by 2 (up from 1). Just to make them a little more useful (I even considered 3, but that might be too much).

-Increase dyes bonus commerce to 2 (up from 1). Its the only luxury with a bonus of 1, all others are 2-4.

-Increase tobacco bonus commerce to 2 (up from 1). Same reason as dyes.

-Give Cruise missiles "Tactical Missile" option to load them onto nuclear subs. (Oh how I wish there were seperate "Tactical Missile" and "Tactical Nuke" flags...)

-Manufacturing plant pollution reduced to 1 (down from 2). Modern mfg. plants are much more environment friendly (and regulated) than the beasts of the industrial revolution.

-Submarine upgrades to Nuclear sub. Such an obvious change IMO :)

-Move Build barricade action to Metallurgy. I think barricades and costal fortresses are a better match. Plus it puts a nice technological gap between fortresses and barricades to give fortresses a period of supremacy.

-Barracks require Warrior Code. Gives militaristic civs an early (if short lived) bonus where they have none.

-Give towns a defence value (15 or so?). Even the smallest town is a tactically superior position than a grassy field.

-Lower citizen and building defence values (something like 0/5, 5/10, 5/15, 10/15, etc). I don't quite understand how having more people and landmarks in a city magically give its defenders a boost, but whatever.

-Slightly increased OCN for all map sizes. Corruption is perhaps the most poorly implemented Civ3 feature after pollution. I'd like to deal with it as little as possible :lol:

-Fixed civ colors (like in BBW, etc).


And thats it so far. I also had another crazy idea, and that was to give 1 tech in each age the "first to gets free tech bonus" like Philosophy has, but i'm it might prove to be too powerful. For the record though, the 4 techs were Philosohpy, Education, Atomic Theory, and Computers. :)
Anyways, take my suggestions for what they're worth (eg: not much :p), and keep up the great work! :cool:


Now i'm off to do a little modding of my own - thanks for the inspiration BTW! :D

Speaking of which, here are some notes from my own 'tweaksearch':

Lets see...


-Lower spy costs for almost all actions. Spying is just WAY too expensive to make it of any real value.

Trust me, spy costs are not too expensive. While tech steal is expensive in ancient era in industrial and moern era

(and sometime medieval) it's very cheap compared to buying (even when using safely option).

Personally, I think that cost for most options prices are OK, but maybe few of them could use some discount (steal

plans or propagana for example).


-Policeman job reduces corruption by 2 (up from 1). Just to make them a little more useful (I even considered

3, but that might be too much).

I think they are not bad normally. I could sometimes get one extra shield (in some cases very useful) and some extra

bonus to both science and gold. The trick is to use them when you really need an extra sheild or if city is maxed out

so and can give more worth when taxmen or scientist.

-Give Cruise missiles "Tactical Missile" option to load them onto nuclear subs. (Oh how I wish there were

seperate "Tactical Missile" and "Tactical Nuke" flags...)

The only problem I have with this is that AI won't be using this option. And I try not to weaken AI with my changes.

-Submarine upgrades to Nuclear sub. Such an obvious change IMO :)
I had this change in PtW version of MOD.
The only reason I didn't include it is that I reasoned that 100 shields submarine could sometimes be more useful then

more expensve Nuc. Submarine. If you want to implemenmt this in your mod I suggest lowering price of NSubs to 120.


-Barracks require Warrior Code. Gives militaristic civs an early (if short lived) bonus where they have none.

Ability to produce 20 shields Barracks by itslef is a great bonus when playing militarist.
Also since most non-Mil players won't realy build Barracks until when get ready for Archers this won't change much.

-Give towns a defence value (15 or so?). Even the smallest town is a tactically superior position than a grassy field.

Could inbalance early game conquest. Even with normal rules spearmean in town has defense of 2.7 Andything extra would make Archers and Horsemen much weaker.
Myabe if you remove minimal terrain bonus (from 10% to 0) and then add 10% bonus to towns?


-Lower citizen and building defence values (something like 0/5, 5/10, 5/15, 10/15, etc). I don't quite understand how

having more people and landmarks in a city magically give its defenders a boost, but whatever.

I think these are used when bomber are bombarding the city to see will they destroy/kill building/population.

-Increase dyes bonus commerce to 2 (up from 1). Its the only luxury with a bonus of 1, all others are 2-4.

-Increase tobacco bonus commerce to 2 (up from 1). Same reason as dyes.

-Manufacturing plant pollution reduced to 1 (down from 2). Modern mfg. plants are much more environment friendly (and

regulated) than the beasts of the industrial revolution.

-Move Build barricade action to Metallurgy. I think barricades and costal fortresses are a better match. Plus it puts

a nice technological gap between fortresses and barricades to give fortresses a period of supremacy.

-Slightly increased OCN for all map sizes. Corruption is perhaps the most poorly implemented Civ3 feature after

pollution. I'd like to deal with it as little as possible :lol:

-Fixed civ colors (like in BBW, etc).


These are mosly flavour issuses. And I tried to limit my mod more on game balance then flavor (since it's a subjective thing, someone likes it someone don't).


[QUOTE]Now i'm off to do a little modding of my own - thanks for the inspiration BTW! [QUOTE]

No problem.

Patch Suggestion lite (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=94997) has been released!

Just getting back into civ after being gone for a while, and I'm trying to catch up with your mods, which I always liked in the past.

But, now there's three versions, and though we have normal, lite, and ultra lite, lite has stuff in it that is not in the normal version. :)

So, my question for you is which is the definitive player1_fanatic patch suggestion mod? :)

I am trusting your judgement here, as I tried to unravel you a long time ago but was severly schooled.

Thanks!
dsr

Lite version is what you should look for.

It's newer and more often updated.
Still, since some things are changed in different light (less changes overall, but since it's newer has some changes that normal doesn't have), I deciced to keep old patch suggestion for download. I haven't planned to update normal mod in anytime soon.


And ultra-lite is a "joke-mod".

Lite version is what you should look for.

It's newer and more often updated.
Still, since some things are changed in different light (less changes overall, but since it's newer has some changes that normal doesn't have), I deciced to keep old patch suggestion for download. I haven't planned to update normal mod in anytime soon.


And ultra-lite is a "joke-mod".

I would like the full C3C version, but it says that it is not found. Do you not support the full version anymore? If so, I will have to find another mod similiar to this. :( :cry:

It's strange.
It should've been up.

In the meantime try browsing Apolyton.net forums (Civ3-File Forum), where you could find a download.


P.S.
Yes I'm pretty much now supporting PS-Lite only, but this version should have been donloadable.

I reuploaded the mod as attachment. Hopefully, it would prevent it from getting lost next time.


Although, I would suggest you to try ps-lite too.