Rise of the Ottomans (C3C) [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 02:49 PM

As you'd agree, the most important thing we have to decide on before the map would be the time frame in which this scenario will take place. It is about the 'RISE OF THE OTTOMANS', for sure, but rise since when?

The initial rise from becoming a humble state bordering Byzantium to actually having conquered whole Anatolia was actually through several battles with the Byzantines, Serbs and other Turkish states in Anatolia, through purchase of land and diplomatic annexations. Therefore it's actually somewhat boring, if you ask me.

Whenever Tamerlane invaded Anatolia in 1402, then the Ottomans were in lots of turmoil for around 13 years.

The real unstoppable rise of the empire dates right after the end of the 13 year turmoil, also called the Fetret Era (Interregnum in English).

Therefore it is possible to split the ages of the Rise of the Ottoman Empire into 4 minor eras, which can later be renamed.

1. Reconquest of Anatolia, the Greek peninsula and the Balkans
Main players:
- Venice (all Mediterranean islands, Venice and Dalmatia)
- Serbia (almost all Balkan peninsula, although this is not exactly accurate)
- Byzantine Empire (Greece [although not all of Greece], Constantinople and also Trebizond, even though it was not part of the Byzantine)
- White Sheep Turks, aka. Akkoyunlu (Iran, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Iraq)

- Murad II is the ruler of the Ottomans. Conquered all these areas. From 1415 to 1451.

2. Conquest of the Greek Orthodox World
- Byzantine Empire (Constantionple and Greece, Crimea)
- Crimean Mongol States (Crimea, The Golden Horde; they can be put under one name)
- Georgia (Georgia)
- White Sheep Turks (same peninsula)
- Venice

- Mehmed the Conqueror (Fatih Sultan Mehmet) is the ruler of the Ottomans. Conquered all these areas, except Iran. From 1453 to 1481.

3. Conquest of the Islamic World and the Turco-Iranian conflicts
- Mamelukes (all of North Africa and all the coasts of the Mediterranean up to and including Syria)
- Iran (the Safavids)
- Venice
- The Hedjaz (Mecca and Medina) peninsula
- Oman (although not important; could be excluded)

- Bayezid II was the ruler of the Ottomans for the first half, but he was rather passive. Yavuz Sultan Selim (Selim I) was the most active one, conquering all of the Mamelukes. From 1481 to 1512 (Bayezid II) and 1512 to 1520 (Selim I).

4. Conquest of Hungary, Turco-Venetian conflict, Turco-French alliance and the Turco-Austrian conflict

- Austria (you know...)
- Hungary (It was an autonomous state before it was conquered by the Ottomans, but could be joined up with Austria)
- Poland (there was this "Polish Support" idea going on)
- Venice (as usual)
- France (could be included as an ally of the Turks against Austria, somehow. Just like the "Polish Support" idea. If not, could be excluded).

- Suleiman the Magnificent was the ruler of the Ottomans in all these years. 1520 till 1566.

- Note that Algeria and Tunisia were annexed in this time period by one of the most famous admiral, Hayrettin Pasha (aka. Barbarossa).

That marks the end of the real "RISE of the Ottomans" as we know it. Even though there have been major conflicts until WWI, they don't denote to the RISE of the empire.

Note that I JUST wanted to give a general idea on what we should actually debate on. The civs that should be represented should be narrowed.

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 03:02 PM

Keeping in mind that making a perfectly accurate scenario in C3C is almost impossible, I'd say that only major civs should be represented in the scenario (maybe in a generalised form). The different timelines should be considered.

- Veneto (They were always there anyway).

- Austria-Hungary (a war on Hungary would also provoke a war on the Habsburg, even though Hungary was not a part of the Habsburg Dynasty at the time, but it would make sense).

- Mamelukes

- Byzantium (a not-so-powerful civ at the time)

- Iran (although it wasn't present in the beginning, it emerged all of a sudden. Since we can't have triggers in the game, it's also good to include them from the very beginning).

- The White Sheep Turks (they owned all of Iraq, Azerbaijan and Armenia; but not that strong. They also owned Iran initially, but only initially. Very important.)

- The Hejdaz (could include all of the Hedjaz-Yemen peninsula, even though Yemen was autonomous. Excludes Oman, but since Oman never had a conflict with the Ottomans and the Ottomans only saved Oman once from the Portuguese later in history, they can be excluded).

- Northern Mongolian States (Crimea Khaganate, Golden Horde, Astrakhan, etc... Can all be generalized in one state).

- Eastern Turco-Mongolian States (the Chagatai, Uzbek, Khazak, Altai, etc, etc, etc. can be combined into one single state. Otherwise there will be too much to cope with).

- Serbia (representing the Balkan states).

- Moldavia? (Representing the Northern Balkan - Black Sea states)

Any additions, etc?

One more thing; the word "Istanbul" was ONLY used among the Turkish folk up until 1923, when the Republic of Turkey was founded. It was always formally named as Constantinople (or Constantiniye).

mrtn

Jan 27, 2004, 03:11 PM

aaminion, why did you put forest in the delta? shouldn't that be marsh instead?

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
Here's Africa. It will have only one civ: the Mamelukes. Maybe if they get too powerful, we'll have two, or place Bedouins all over Lybia. Either way, it won't have too many resources to compensate for it's size. Tell me if any adjustments are necessary. Lybia, Tunisia and Algeria played an important role, but I don't think they can be mimicked in C3C. So placing Bedouins beyond the borders of the Mamelukes sounds like a fine idea. However these barbarians should be somewhat relatively tougher ones so that they wouldn't be overrun by a regular swordsman sort of unit.

Mamelukes would only get their strength from the Nile peninsula and Syria; the rest would not matter as much. Some resources here and there would make it perfect.

Originally posted by Xen
I suggest makeing deserts unsettleable :) In addition to this, deserts should cost extra movement, which only the Ottoman and maybe the Iranian horsemen can ignore. The reasoning behind this is obvious I'd say. I don't actually know if this is necessary, but the Mamelukes were conquered through some sort of a blitzkrieg, some sort of a spearhead tactic by massive Turkish horsemen. The Mamelukes, when they were founded, had strong cavalry, but not when they confronted the Ottomans, AFAIK.

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by mrtn
aaminion, why did you put forest in the delta? shouldn't that be marsh instead? (Geez I feel like I'm spamming this thread. I'll give the word to others for a while, I promise).

Sounds right, mrtn, but then that area would be completely worthless.

aaminion00

Jan 27, 2004, 03:54 PM

Ok, I'm playing a succession game right now, but it's nice to know the scenario has gotten interest.

Originally posted by Xen
I suggest makeing deserts unsettleable :)

Yes, that'd be a good idea. Maybe also give it a higher than normal movement cost?

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Aaminion00, where did you get that wonderful grid? I could really use it in my mapmaking!:D

Thanks! I made it myself. I'll upload it on the bottom of this post, and you can save it. It's pretty helpful.

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
If there is something I could do to help with this scenario, let me know.

Sure, just visit when you can and join in the discussion.

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Will the Ottomans be the only playable civ in this scen, or can you play as Austria, or Byzantium?:mischief:

I think it should be like the Middle Ages Conquest, where all the most important civs will be playable. As of right now, that means you can play as Austria, Hungary, Venice, the Ottomans, Mamelukes, the Safivids, and Byzantium ;)

Originally posted by SpincruS
As you'd agree, the most important thing we have to decide on before the map would be the time frame in which this scenario will take place. It is about the 'RISE OF THE OTTOMANS', for sure, but rise since when?

The initial rise from becoming a humble state bordering Byzantium to actually having conquered whole Anatolia was actually through several battles with the Byzantines, Serbs and other Turkish states in Anatolia, through purchase of land and diplomatic annexations. Therefore it's actually somewhat boring, if you ask me.

Whenever Tamerlane invaded Anatolia in 1402, then the Ottomans were in lots of turmoil for around 13 years.

The real unstoppable rise of the empire dates right after the end of the 13 year turmoil, also called the Fetret Era (Interregnum in English).

Good points. Regarding the timeframe, there were/are 3 candidates.

1. 1300 - 1500 : a year after the start of Osman's kingdom to 20 years after the first siege of Vienna, a nice 300 1-year turns
2. 1300 - 1683 : a year after the start of Osman's kingdom, to the empires greatest extent
3. 1415 - 1500 : same as option one except starting at your recommended date
4. 1415 - 1683 : same as option two except starting at your recommended date

I wouldn't want to make the Ottoman empire too big in the beginning, I'd like for this to be a bit of a challenge. For example, Hungary and the Mamelukes should both be larger and more powerful in the very beginning. I'd also like to give Byzantium a bit of a fighting chance, so not just Constantinople.

Originally posted by SpincruS
1. Reconquest of Anatolia, the Greek peninsula and the Balkans
Main players:
- Venice (all Mediterranean islands, Venice and Dalmatia)
- Serbia (almost all Balkan peninsula, although this is not exactly accurate)
- Byzantine Empire (Greece [although not all of Greece], Constantinople and also Trebizond, even though it was not part of the Byzantine)
- White Sheep Turks, aka. Akkoyunlu (Iran, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Iraq)

- Murad II is the ruler of the Ottomans. Conquered all these areas. From 1415 to 1451.

Ok, since I'm Bosnian I am familiar with at least this part.

Originally posted by SpincruS
2. Conquest of the Greek Orthodox World
- Byzantine Empire (Constantionple and Greece, Crimea)
- Crimean Mongol States (Crimea, The Golden Horde; they can be put under one name)
- Georgia (Georgia)
- White Sheep Turks (same peninsula)
- Venice

- Mehmed the Conqueror (Fatih Sultan Mehmet) is the ruler of the Ottomans. Conquered all these areas, except Iran. From 1453 to 1481.

That seems about right, but I know next to nothing about the Crimean Mongol States, so if you could provide some basic information on that it'd be great.

Originally posted by SpincruS
3. Conquest of the Islamic World and the Turco-Iranian conflicts
- Mamelukes (all of North Africa and all the coasts of the Mediterranean up to and including Syria)
- Iran (the Safavids)
- Venice
- The Hedjaz (Mecca and Medina) peninsula
- Oman (although not important; could be excluded)

- Bayezid II was the ruler of the Ottomans for the first half, but he was rather passive. Yavuz Sultan Selim (Selim I) was the most active one, conquering all of the Mamelukes. From 1481 to 1512 (Bayezid II) and 1512 to 1520 (Selim I).

The Hejaz will be in there, probably in a locked alliance with the Mamelukes to reflect vassalship. I'm not sure Oman is very necessary for a scenario. We don't want it to get too powerful too quick.

Originally posted by SpincruS
4. Conquest of Hungary, Turco-Venetian conflict, Turco-French alliance and the Turco-Austrian conflict

- Austria (you know...)
- Hungary (It was an autonomous state before it was conquered by the Ottomans, but could be joined up with Austria)
- Poland (there was this "Polish Support" idea going on)
- Venice (as usual)
- France (could be included as an ally of the Turks against Austria, somehow. Just like the "Polish Support" idea. If not, could be excluded).

- Suleiman the Magnificent was the ruler of the Ottomans in all these years. 1520 till 1566.

- Note that Algeria and Tunisia were annexed in this time period by one of the most famous admiral, Hayrettin Pasha (aka. Barbarossa).

Venice, Austria, and Hungary will be included of course. Hungary will remain seperate from Austria, since it was such a powerful medieval state. France is too far away to be included directly, but perhaps the wonder idea could work. With Poland I already explained why I don't like it, but the Polish support wonder, imo should definetly be in.

Originally posted by SpincruS
Keeping in mind that making a perfectly accurate scenario in C3C is almost impossible, I'd say that only major civs should be represented in the scenario (maybe in a generalised form). The different timelines should be considered.

- Veneto (They were always there anyway).

- Austria-Hungary (a war on Hungary would also provoke a war on the Habsburg, even though Hungary was not a part of the Habsburg Dynasty at the time, but it would make sense).

- Mamelukes

- Byzantium (a not-so-powerful civ at the time)

- Iran (although it wasn't present in the beginning, it emerged all of a sudden. Since we can't have triggers in the game, it's also good to include them from the very beginning).

- The White Sheep Turks (they owned all of Iraq, Azerbaijan and Armenia; but not that strong. They also owned Iran initially, but only initially. Very important.)

- The Hejdaz (could include all of the Hedjaz-Yemen peninsula, even though Yemen was autonomous. Excludes Oman, but since Oman never had a conflict with the Ottomans and the Ottomans only saved Oman once from the Portuguese later in history, they can be excluded).

- Northern Mongolian States (Crimea Khaganate, Golden Horde, Astrakhan, etc... Can all be generalized in one state).

- Eastern Turco-Mongolian States (the Chagatai, Uzbek, Khazak, Altai, etc, etc, etc. can be combined into one single state. Otherwise there will be too much to cope with).

- Serbia (representing the Balkan states).

- Moldavia? (Representing the Northern Balkan - Black Sea states)

Any additions, etc?

There was a map, of what I originally had in mind for the scenario, and you can look at it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?postid=1519265). Obviously some changes will be made. The situation in the middle east and Asia is open to any ideas people have, since I'm not the familiar with the states of the Middle East between the Crusades and Ottoman rule. With Europe I like the general layout, but one or two may be taken out if people wish.

Originally posted by SpincruS
One more thing; the word "Istanbul" was ONLY used among the Turkish folk up until 1923, when the Republic of Turkey was founded. It was always formally named as Constantinople (or Constantiniye).

Ah, didn't know that. That's good... I was wondering what to do about the city's name changes.

Originally posted by mrtn
aaminion, why did you put forest in the delta? shouldn't that be marsh instead?

Well yes, but I was all but copying from the existing firaxis made maps of the regions. Either way I can understand their logic, since if that land was swamp it would be next to worthless, and that's the heart of Mameluke country.

Originally posted by SpincruS
Lybia, Tunisia and Algeria played an important role, but I don't think they can be mimicked in C3C. So placing Bedouins beyond the borders of the Mamelukes sounds like a fine idea. However these barbarians should be somewhat relatively tougher ones so that they wouldn't be overrun by a regular swordsman sort of unit.

Yes, I completely agree about the bedouins. There is a unit... an Arabic camel rider with a riffle that could fit this purpose. Perhaps making them invisible would do the trick?

Originally posted by SpincruS
In addition to this, deserts should cost extra movement, which only the Ottoman and maybe the Iranian horsemen can ignore. The reasoning behind this is obvious I'd say. I don't actually know if this is necessary, but the Mamelukes were conquered through some sort of a blitzkrieg, some sort of a spearhead tactic by massive Turkish horsemen. The Mamelukes, when they were founded, had strong cavalry, but not when they confronted the Ottomans, AFAIK.

Yes, deserts should cost 2 movement points as I said, and I agree some units should be able to disregard this. Originally I thought that the Hejaz should be able to do this with a light camel rider, but we could think of doing something similar for the Iranians (and Ottomans as well). As far as the Mameulkes go, I think the way to simulate that might be to give them very good offensive units, but relatively weak defensive ones. Their core unit would probably be the camel riding rifflemen, who would have a very high attack (lets say even higher than the Sipahi), but a very low defense (1 or 2), like all of their units. That way it would all depend on who attacked first. To simulate the blitzkrieg speed of the war more, perhaps we could have certain key unit-producing resources be available to only a few cities.

aaminion00

Jan 27, 2004, 04:03 PM

And here's the mapmaking grid for Amenhotep7

Bóreas

Jan 27, 2004, 04:07 PM

holly molly SpincruS, that's quite a history lesson there!
@aaminion00: I think you're missing the the inclination of the Gábas Gulf to the Sidra Gulf, the Sinai Peninsul should be stretched. The desert doesn't start there, you're missing the Qatarra depression. but that's not a offense of your work, you do a great job. Face it as constructive criticism.
resources:
-Honey, Spices, Cotton, Fish, camels, horses, wool, maybe goldfish for a personalized air, Wheat, Olives

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 04:15 PM

I will give some information on the Crimean Khaganate and the Golden Horde later on.

But as someone who plays Europa Universalis, you should already be familiar with most of the stuff anyway :)

Regarding unique units and all, that should be a later step we should take, I'd say. But I completely agree with you aaminion00, except the point on riflemen. Rifles were introduced pretty late to that peninsula; only the Ottomans had them among Islamic nations I believe, and they were primitive ones just like the Europeans had at the time.

Regarding the map you linked to; Ilkhans and Black Sheep Turks (Kara Koyunlu) can be excluded. Trebizond, even though it was not a part of the Byzantine Empire, could be given to the Byzantine to make them stronger. Same with Greece (even though there was a Greek kingdom aside from the Byzantines in the Athens peninsula).

It's better to concentrate on the map first, I'd say.

Concerning the time frame, I guess 1300-1600 would be the best, but then we have to add all the Anatolian Turkish states that were not Ottoman at the time and even the Timurid Empire. Then things get complicated.

My suggestion is; start the game from 1400, when the Mongolian armies of Tamerlane are running the Ottoman state over. That might be an initial challenge to the player.

Ah anyway. We should not drift away this much. I'd say; let's focus on the map now, and when that's done, this talk will resume :)

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 04:49 PM

Here is a possible, not so accurate quick doodle map that I made, using the one you provided before.

Stuff to note:

1. The Crimean Khaganate and the Golden Horde were two separate states.
2. Rhodes did not belong to Venice. Combining the Knights with Venice is absurd, inaccurate, but saves us from one extra civ.
3. The small Aegean isles belonged to Venice, but I doubt they will be included anyway.
4. Trebizond did not belong to Byzantium,
5. Balkan states were all separate, but better to have them as one single civ in the game (even though there is a huge gap between the Bulgarians, the Romanians, the Serbs and the Bosnians).
6. The Anatolian Turkish States were many, but the last one to dissapear was the Dulkadir to the very east. However, they were put as a single civ to ease our lives.
7. Iran was supposed to be a part of the White Sheep, but they are not on this map.
8. Lithuania and Poland did not merge at the beginning years, but much later.

The system on this map might ease the process, though. Here is the map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/alternate-map-roto.jpg

The red patch in the middle of Anatolia are the Ottomans (d'uh...) Forgot to name it.

aaminion00

Jan 27, 2004, 05:41 PM

Good map, we'll probably use it. Only a few remarks.

1. The Balkan kingdoms, could perhaps be named the "South Slav Kingdoms" civ... hopefully that would work with the diplomacy text.

2. The Papacy probably is accurate, but how would we be able to represent it's power in the Catholic World? Perhaps a "Vatican City" wonder that produces crusaders every once in a while?

3. I still don't think we should include Poland or Lithuania, but if everybody absolutely insists, we'll try.

p.s. As a little joke, maybe we should have a barbarian Posedion unit running around the Greek isles? I say yes. :lol:

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
Good map, we'll probably use it. Only a few remarks.

1. The Balkan kingdoms, could perhaps be named the "South Slav Kingdoms" civ... hopefully that would work with the diplomacy text.

2. The Papacy probably is accurate, but how would we be able to represent it's power in the Catholic World? Perhaps a "Vatican City" wonder that produces crusaders every once in a while?

3. I still don't think we should include Poland or Lithuania, but if everybody absolutely insists, we'll try.

p.s. As a little joke, maybe we should have a barbarian Posedion unit running around the Greek isles? I say yes. :lol: 1. Sounds accurate. Even though the Romanians were not Slavs (and are still not Slavs :P), it sounds fine. We have the Slavic horsemen and all as units, too! :)

2. I don't think we should include the Vatican, on a second thought.

3. That's why I didn't shade that area.

For the Poseidon idea, it's a great one :lol: Like a barbarian sea unit. I think they even HAVE unit graphics for that!

spincrus

Jan 27, 2004, 06:18 PM

Oh, by the way, Mongoloid Cow is good with the Mongol states, AFAIK. He might give us a hand on what to do with the Crimean Mongols.

10Seven

Jan 27, 2004, 06:50 PM

Question, re: Map making.

Wondering if there was any benefit to using the grid in Paint - which ever program you mentioned - ?

Currently, I work my maps in Photoship, manipulate the image to translate, and then go tile by tile, visually, into the editor.

The conversion utility sounds good, but when working from satellite maps, the amount of work to convert it to something the utility can understand defeats the purpose.

;) Am simply hoping you know something I don't - in using the grid :confused: otherwise it seems like double handling...

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 07:05 AM

@10Seven

You probably know what you're doing a lot better than me.. i'm a pretty inexperienced map maker so I'm using my grid.

@ Everyone

2nd straight snow-day

spincrus

Jan 28, 2004, 08:56 AM

Nah.. It didn't snow enough to get the classes canceled here today (Baltimore area). I have one class anyway :P

@aaminion00: how is the map going? any process?

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 09:37 AM

Well, I've done Italy but the file is too big to attach. The Upload function doesn't work for me either.

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 12:32 PM

UPDATE!

Most of Europe is finished. This means Italy, Austria, Hungary, the Carpathians, and the ex-Yugoslavia. What's left is Romania, Thrace, Greece, and Albania. I'll probably finish Turkey, Arabia, and the fertile crescent today too. Mesopotamia, Persia, Armenia, and Asia will be left for sometime during the next few days.

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 01:05 PM

Europe

mrtn

Jan 28, 2004, 01:46 PM

I think that Italy should get a bigger toe. Otherwise it seems to be good. :)

Amenhotep7

Jan 28, 2004, 02:25 PM

What govts will you be making? I can think of 4 right off the bat:

1) Thocracy, a la the Holy Roman Empire/ Papal States
2)Khanate (or ruler of a Khan) a la the Golden Horde
3) Monarchy
4) Sultanate

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 02:39 PM

@ mrtn: thanks for the advice. I think I'll add another set of tiles on the bottom of the toe and shorten Sicily a bit. I'm doing Turkey next, and then following the coast to Mecca.

@ Amenhotep7: Hmm, good question. We'll have to think about that later when we get to the tech tree. Taking yours and adding whatever's on top of my head, I can give you the following:

Theocracy
Khanate
Monarchy
Sultanate
Caliphate
Tzardom
Mercantile State

mrtn

Jan 28, 2004, 02:52 PM

Is the difference between Khans, kings, sultans and tsars really that big? Govts where only the name differs is kinda pointless, imo.

Amenhotep7

Jan 28, 2004, 03:03 PM

Yes, since each of these types of rulers ruled differently, IMHO, and it's for flavor.:p

aaminion00

Jan 28, 2004, 04:13 PM

Between Caliphate and Sultanate I'm not sure. Between Tzardom and Kingdom yes. It is the difference between a small slavic state and an empire.

Xen

Jan 28, 2004, 05:10 PM

there need t be a distinc differnce between feudalism, and Monarchy- for instnace, the byzantines werent a fuedal state, but were still a monarchy...

spincrus

Jan 28, 2004, 08:17 PM

I think a good solution would be to have the Ottomans start with a Sultanate.

However, Cairo should have a special wonder which is required to have Caliphate as a government. I guess this was possible in C3C, can't recall now. But this would perfectly mimic the transfer of the title "Caliph" to the Ottoman Sultan after the conquest of the Mamelukes.

And a comment on the map;

There should be the isle of Corfu represented by any means. It was the furthest the Ottomans could go near the Italians on the Mediterranean peninsula, and the failure of the siege of Corfu is very important in Ottoman history.

aaminion00

Jan 30, 2004, 03:18 PM

Good ideas. Where exactly is Corfu... could you find a map online or something, because I'd add it right away?

Speaking of the map, I'll continue it now.

spincrus

Jan 30, 2004, 06:12 PM

Corfu is the island right next to Greece. Of course you don't need to get the exact shape as it's too small to do that, but a single square island would be fine, making it even harder to conquer :)

Let me show you a map.

http://www.askelena.com/greece/corfu/maps/hellas_corfu_map.gif

Bóreas

Jan 30, 2004, 06:52 PM

I think tree squares is possible...

aaminion00

Jan 30, 2004, 11:54 PM

Ok, I added Corfu, finished Arabia, Turkey, Israel, and Syria, and started on Mesopotamia. I've gotten to the most boring part of the map, and it's starting to take it's toll :(

Oh well, I have free time this weekend and soon we start on tech tree.

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 11:15 AM

I'll continue the map today.

@SpincruS - Bajram Mubarek Olsun (I'm assuming you're Muslim?).

spincrus

Feb 01, 2004, 11:45 AM

@aaminion00: Tesekkur ederim, senin de bayramin mubarek olsun. (yes, I am :). I'm assuming you are Muslim too, since you're Bosnian, right?)

(Translation for the ones who wonder what it means: aaminion00 wished me a nice bairam, which is an annual Muslim celebration, and I thanked him by wishing him the best, too).

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 03:18 PM

Good news! I'm about to finish the map. The only thing that remains is Iraq, Armenia, and Asia, and I'm done. Eta: half an hour or so. Of course we might want to go over the details once I'm done.

Also, with the tech tree discussion, should we first figure out all the basic units, buildings, and wonders we want, or do we go for plotting out the tech tree first and adding everything in later?

@SpincruS: Yep, i'm muslim as well.

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 04:48 PM

Finished

MAP IS COMPLETED. Here you can download the rough draft. I'm accepting all constructive criticism... unless it's going to kill me fixing it. I'll release a public version with the standard resources tonight for the rest of the C3C community, and fix the map up for our scenario by wednesday or so. I'm also going to post some previews. Here you can download if you wish for a better look.

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 04:49 PM

Minimap

Amenhotep7

Feb 01, 2004, 04:50 PM

Nice map!:goodjob:

Might wanna seperate the Western Peloponnese from the mainland, tho.;)

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Nice map!:goodjob:

Might wanna seperate the Western Peloponnese from the mainland, tho.;)

Western Peloponnese? Do you mean the Spartan land mass? If so, that's only semi-connected to the mainland. Units can pass to the other side at only two locations, but ships can pass through as well (sort of like Constantinople).

mrtn

Feb 01, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00

Western Peloponnese? Do you mean the Spartan land mass? If so, that's only semi-connected to the mainland. Units can pass to the other side at only two locations, but ships can pass through as well (sort of like Constantinople). If it still look as it did in the preview you posted Jan 28, then ships can't pass it. This hasn't been possible since Civ 2. :rolleyes:

aaminion00

Feb 01, 2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by mrtn
If it still look as it did in the preview you posted Jan 28, then ships can't pass it. This hasn't been possible since Civ 2. :rolleyes:

:lol: shh... it will be passable once we place a city on that spot. ;)

Xen

Feb 01, 2004, 05:56 PM

this is a unit that I think will be much neede dby this scenario- the Venitian infantry man- he could act as a marine unit, giving Venice a good advantage in nval operation :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Venitian_infantry.jpg

Gogf

Feb 01, 2004, 05:58 PM

This is coming along well Aamion00! This is going to be fun to play :). I would have offered to help, but I am already in too many scenarios (sorry).

@Xen: Check your "Can't get on to the chat" thread.

Xen

Feb 01, 2004, 06:07 PM

@Gogf- tried it, dosent work :( seems I wont be on chat for a long while my friend :(

spincrus

Feb 01, 2004, 11:27 PM

I have downloaded the map and see that it's quite impressive!

Couple of things, though. Only small tweaks, nothing to worry about;

1. You should add the Van lake on Anatolia; it's even bigger than the Tuz (Salt) Lake. It's located to the east.
2. Upper parts of the Caspian sea should have marshes.
3. You might want to change the looks of Cyprus a little. Add two more squares to the bottom and delete one to the west, maybe?
4. The Balkans should be full of trees. It should be very, VERY lush.
5. Sinop (the northern tip of Anatolia) should be a little "more" to the north. I mean, an extra tile or two would make it perfect.
6. The black sea coasts should be very very lush. Grasslands instead of plains. Even forests all over! Trebizond (Trabzon) should be covered in marshes.
7. The eastern parts of Anatolia should have "ice capped mountains". Just to give the effects :)
8. You can delete the eastern tile of the Tuz Lake to make it more realistic.
9. The southern parts of Iraq should have more deserts with floodplains. Same applies for the south of Egypt a little bit (like 2 more squares of desert?)
10. You forgot couple of ocean tiles here and there on the mediterranean. Also, some coast tiles are visible on the top left corner of the map.

I like the way you added Corfu in :D

Since the map is done, I think we should start plotting out the tech tree first, as aaminion00 has suggested. Then we can discuss the units and add them to places necessary.

Oh, by the way, I love Xen's idea for the Venetian unit.

aaminion00

Feb 03, 2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS

10. You forgot couple of ocean tiles here and there on the mediterranean. Also, some coast tiles are visible on the top left corner of the map.

I tried to do everything on your list, and I'm about to release a general game version. But this last one I don't agree with. I didn't include ocean tiles because the Mediterranean sea is... well... a sea, not an ocean. As for the coast tiles visible in the top left corner of the map, that's the fault of the terrain that i can't change. It comes with Conquests.

spincrus

Feb 03, 2004, 08:25 PM

Hehe, what I actually ment was that there are actually some ocean tiles on the Mediterranean which have to be removed ;)

aaminion00

Feb 04, 2004, 08:14 PM

I'm not able to do anything today, and possibly tomorrow, sorry. :(

The project will get rolling again by the weekend at the latest.

aaminion00

Feb 07, 2004, 01:52 PM

1st Age Buildings:

Mosque (Islam)

A wonder only available to the Islamic civs. It acts as a temple.

Monastery (State Religion)

A wonder available to all civs, but requiring "christian villages" resource. It increases both science and happines, but doesn't raise happines as much as a mosque.

Library (Medieval Sciences)

Incrases science, simple enough.

Bath House (Construction)

Increases happines and decreases overcrowding.

Fountains (Construction)

Increases happines and decreases overcrowding, though not as much as the Bath house.

Public Gardens (City Planning)

Increase happines and culture.

Marketplace (Mercantilism)

Increases city gold-production, adds to overcrowding.

Tax Office (Bureocracy)(Need better name)

Increases city gold-production, decreases happines.

Carsija (City Planning)

Increases happines and gold-production.

Castle (Feudalism)

Adds to city defense.

City Walls (Fortifications)

Adds further on to city's defense.

Barracks (Medieval Wafare)

Produces veteran units.

Harbor (Seafaring)

Water-squares produce food.

Armory (Gunpowder)

I'm not 100% sure yet, but it seems like a good idea...

1st Age Resources:

Quary (Construction)
Christian Villages (State religion)
Fish (Seafaring)
Olives (Organized Farming)
Wheat (no Advance)
Camels (Medieval Wafare)
horses (medieval warfare)
Iron (medieval warfare)
Gunpowder (gunpowder)

Amenhotep7

Feb 07, 2004, 05:20 PM

Ooh!:D Nice tech tree.

IDEA!:D

There was a giant cannon employed by the Ottomans called "Basilica". It was huge, 27 feet long, and could fire 1200-1600 lb cannonballs over a mile. I say this should be some sort of very expensive unit for the Ottomans.

Wikipedia-
"The Ottomans employed a Hungarian engineer called Urban who was a specialist in the construction of cannon, which were still almost new weapons. He built an enormous cannon, nearly twenty-seven feet (more than 8 m) in length and 2.5 feet (about 75 cm) in diameter, which could fire a 1200-pound (544 kg) ball as far as one mile. Although the Byzantines also had cannon, they were much smaller and their recoil tended to damage their own walls. Urban's monster cannon had several drawbacks, however. It could hardly hit anything, not even as large as Constantinople; it took three hours to reload; the cannon balls were in very short supply; and the cannon collapsed under its own recoil after six weeks. "

Obviously, it didn't last long, but it woul help as some sort of siege unit for the Ottomans. Do you like?:D

spincrus

Feb 07, 2004, 09:16 PM

I like the tech tree and all! The thing is, though, I'd say that Islam should not be a tech, or could be replaced by something else. Think about it; Islam came in the 7th century, we're talking about the 14th-15th centuries here :)

aaminion00

Feb 07, 2004, 10:53 PM

"Turkish Islam" then? I understand your point, but we'd need Sultanate to be only available to the muslim civs.

Meanwhile, I think I'll add some techs to this tech tree and then split it up into two eras, with the first one being a lot more "medieval". Here's what I'm thinking:

1st era - Castles, knights, ghazis, medieval infantry, arquebusiers, early cannons
2nd era - Siege cannons, Janissaries, musketmen
3rd era - Sipahi, curiassers, protestanism

Personally I think 4th era wouldn't be a very good thing. We should just have 3, like some of the conquests.

Bóreas

Feb 08, 2004, 05:13 AM

i think islamism is more like it
or islamic influence
BTW, any help with the tech tree, U can call on me

aaminion00

Feb 08, 2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Bóreas
i think islamism is more like it
or islamic influence
BTW, any help with the tech tree, U can call on me

Do you mean actually implementing the tech tree into the game or just designing it? Because the first would be very, very, helpful.

aaminion00

Feb 10, 2004, 06:10 PM

Here's the new and improved 1st Era Tech tree. It's a lot more "medieval", and most importantly, a lot simpler. The main thing I'm looking on input on is for wonders (SpincruS this is where you come in). Also whatever resources/buildings/units you'd like to add in, mention them now. Flavor unit such as Ghazis (Ottoman horsemen), or Camel warriors (Knights with weaker defense and no movement cost in desert) are not included. They will be added on later. Either way, here it is. I'm pretty happy with it.

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 06:56 PM

Instead of discovering the "cannon" directly with gunpowder's invention, I think they should first use the "siege cannon" (I guess it was by aaglo, but can't be sure), and maybe in the following eras upgrade to the regular cannon.

aaminion00

Feb 10, 2004, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS
Instead of discovering the "cannon" directly with gunpowder's invention, I think they should first use the "siege cannon" (I guess it was by aaglo, but can't be sure), and maybe in the following eras upgrade to the regular cannon.

Ok sure :) But what I really need from you is wonder/building suggestions for Medieval Philosophy and State Architecture.

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 09:49 PM

@aaminion00: I just had to mention that really quick, but I was already brainstorming for some wonder ideas, just as we talked about earlier, during the development of the map.

Here is a list of wonders which I came up with, and then we can actually fit them into the techs. I mean, unit, improvement/wonder, government and flavour unit discussion should be done together with the tech tree, I'd say.

Allright, here's the list I've made:

- The Blue Mosque:
- Built in Edirne by the leading Ottoman architect Mimar Sinan, who was actually a devshirme janissary but became one of the greatest architects ever. The mosque is also called the "Selimiye", since it was built in the name of Yavuz Sultan Selim (Selim I). (Note, that I actually made the graphics for this and posted it in the Graphics Modpacks forum, but the shadows are awful and might consider redoing it).

A picture:
http://www.metu.edu.tr/home/wwwissch/ozgurey/edirne/selimiye2.jpg

- Suleymaniye Mosque aka. The Great Mosque
- The greatest mosque still visible in Istanbul today, basicly defining the main skyline of the old city (I'm referring to those parts as the "old", as the city grew tremendously). Again made by Mimar Sinan.

A picture (has always been too big to fit in a single picture):
http://archnet.org/library/imgdownloader/jpg/19045/big/IAA2815.JPG

- Fatih Mosque
- Also located in Istanbul, this mosque was built by Atik Sinan to honour Fatih Sultan Mehmed (Mehmed II The Conquerer, and "Fatih" meaning "The Conquerer"). I just love it.

A picture:
http://archnet.org/library/imgdownloader/jpg/18574/big/ITH0300.jpg

- Mostar Bridge
- An Ottoman bridge located in Bosnia (yay!), which was sadly destroyed in 1993 during the unfortunate war by an artillery shell. It was rebuilt together with Turkish help to fellow Bosnians, IIRC in 2003. Initially built by the student of Mimar Sinan, Hayrettin in 1566. Definitely a wonder, since it's still among Unesco's world heritages list, even after the renovation.

A picture (before the destruction):
http://lava.nationalgeographic.com/pod/pictures/normal/NGM1987_11p592-3.jpg

- Mehmed Ali Mosque
- Another very important Ottoman Turkish architecture in Cairo (among many others). Significant for it's architecture of the fountains.

A picture:
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/kultur_portal/images/en/05/1405/out_osmanli_mimari_misir-kahire_6.jpg

- White Tower
- The symbol of Salonika. A very beautiful piece of Ottoman architecture (might work to reduce corruption).

A picture:
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/kultur_portal/images/en/36/1436/out_osmanli_mimari_yunanistan-selanik_2.jpg

- Topkapi Palace
- Located in Istanbul, a building which I know as if it was my own home. Toured the place so many times with my foreign guests, I already know what's where. It's a beautiful spot in Istanbul, and a must see. Very near to Suleymanie and Hagia Sophia. Built by Mehmed II (The Conquerer) in 1465.

A picture (best aeral view I could find from the web, sorry):
http://www.about-turkey.com/tourism/grafik/istanbul3.jpg

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 09:49 PM

- Selimiye Barracks
- Although this dates to mid 19th century, basicly during the Crimean wars, and has no part in the rise of the empire, it's still unique, as it denotes to the end of the Janissaries and a new beginning of a westernization process, the Nizam-i Cedid (Can work as the Sun Tzu's Art of War).

A picture (a very bad one, I'll look for better ones later):
http://www.bcnursinghistory.ca/images/nightingale01.gif

- Yedikule Fortress aka. Yedikule Dungeons
- Very famous fort, especially famous (or infamous) for its dungeons, where even the youngest Ottoman sultan, Osman II (aka. Young Osman) was killed by the rebelling janissaries. This was a reason for the janissaries to be expelled.

A picture:
http://members.tripod.com/romeartlover/3b.jpg

- The Maiden Tower aka. Kiz Kulesi
- This one is more like a flavor wonder, let's say. There are many myths behind why it was first built, but some historians claim that it ment to serve as a lighthouse first. Myths say, though, that a princess was kept here imprisoned for a while, and was killed by a poisonous snake hidden under the food basket brought in... Of course, it's true if you buy it. My favorite spot in Istanbul, and also is renovated to become a pretty expensive restaurant nowadays.

A lovely picture:
http://www.atistanbulhotels.com/images/mtower.gif

- The Fort of Rumelia aka. Rumeli Hisari
Again in Istanbul. Built to protect the Bosphorus from European aid to Byzantium during the conquest. It also has a small counterpart right accross, called the Anadolu Hisari (Fort of Anatolia). It's used for concerts and festivals nowadays.

A picture:
http://www.shelales.com/images/Turkey%20Photos/Rumeli%20Hisari%20-%20Istanbul.jpg

- Kulliye of Bayezid
- I guess this is the one suitable for Medieval Philosophy, as it has one of the greatest medieval medreses in Anatolia. Built for and by Bayezid II, the father of Yavuz Sultan Selim, in circa 1480's at Amasya (can't remember exact date).

A picture:
http://www.amasya.gov.tr/pix/bayezidkulliyekucuk.jpg

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 09:50 PM

I might add a couple of more later on, but these are the ones which come to my mind right now :). There is this other very important complex in Bursa that'd fit State Architecture greatly, but I can't recall the name!

---

Terms for those of you who don't know what these mean:

Devshirme: A soldier/artisan recruited from a non-Turkish European village or an Anatolian Christian village at a very young age, given education in either the best army schools or universities (medrese). Some even became Sadrazams.

Sadrazam: The grand vizier. There are usually several sadrazams, but one prevails among the others and might even become more influential in government than the Padisah.

Padisah: Derived from the Persian (Farsi) word of "Shah", the Padisah is the name given to a Sultan in Turkish. Even though Sultan is also used, Padisah is the official rank of this person, and Sultan is only some sort of a "nickname".

Medrese: The "university" concept in the Islamic world. Usually education is given together with intensive studies of the Qoran, but the education is not limited to religion. Almost all arts and sciences are taught.

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 10:05 PM

There are also modern ones, such as the Dolmabahce Palace, which was used as a secondary palace in Istanbul (distance to the Topkapi Palace wasn't that great, even). Mostly family members of the Sultan used to live there. Later it was partially converted into a very luxurious hotel (Kempinski), and partially is still a museum. It was where Mustafa Kemal Ataturk lived till his death.

Another one is the Kuleli Military Academy, again on the Bosphorus.

Both of them are relatively late (18th and 19th centuries) Ottoman architectures, and very important buildings if you ask me. Might be included as flavors, if you want :)

Here are some pictures;

Dolmabahce Palace:
http://www.turkishnews.com/DiscoverTurkey/anatolia/images/images/dolmabahce.jpg

Kuleli Military School (aka. Kuleli Askeri Lisesi):
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/genelkumay/digerkonular/CISM2003/images/Kuleli-5.jpg
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/genelkumay/digerkonular/CISM2003/images/Kuleli-6.jpg

And a completely random picture I just found fascinating. From an oath ceremony at the military school:
http://image.superonline.com/haber/image/20030902/HESG_20030901154605_IST27.jpg

aaminion00

Feb 10, 2004, 10:16 PM

Ah, great list :goodjob:

In the meanwhile, I've begun work on rough draft for 2nd era. There are obviously a lot of techs missing.

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 10:26 PM

The second era looks nice!

Especially the Coordinated Agriculture is the tech that brings the first Sipahi in history.

They are called "Timarli Sipahi" and are dominantly Anatolian Turks, unlike the other army corps. The Sipahi that exists in Civ3 are a little more advanced ones, which should come with Mounted Tactics.

The first mounted units should be the Ghazis as you suggested, aaminion00..

spincrus

Feb 10, 2004, 10:30 PM

Oh also check out the Mozarab infantry by embriodead... He'd be a very suitable unit for this mod!

aaminion00

Feb 11, 2004, 08:04 PM

Ok, here are the two final tech tree sketches I have. They're for the 2nd and 3rd (Last) era respectivelly. I think they're pretty good, but any changes are welcome right now.

aaminion00

Feb 11, 2004, 08:05 PM

The Mozarab infantry could be one of the defensively weak yet offensively powerful Arabic Units. Perhaps their Spearman unit (2 defense instead of 1 like their other units). Oh, and as you see, there are two "Questionmark" techs on the 3rd era tree. Any suggestions as to what they can be?

spincrus

Feb 11, 2004, 08:11 PM

The final two techtrees are really good. As you said before, there's no need for a fourth era. Nationalism is also good to have at the end, the way you made it. It definitely denotes the end of the rising era.

aaminion00

Feb 12, 2004, 04:47 PM

Thanks. I've decided that Modren Diplomacy will be pushed back, and together with Aristocracy be a prequesite for Espionage, which shall lead to the Protestant Reformation (To represent the Ottoman's alleged attempts to finance it). As for Religious Identity, it won't have a prequesite. Work will probably stall today, but tomorrow we'll start making a list (fairly independent of the tech tree itself) of the following:

1. Buildings

2. Wonders

3. Resources

4. Basic units

5. Flavor Units (Mameluke Units, etc.)

Once that is done, over the next week or two I'll start making the tech tree. And then when I'm finished we're done with the hardest part of the planning :cool:.

Then comes another very hard part. Finding the units and buildings and all that. Since you said you can make building/wonder graphics, I'm hoping you could do some of the necessary ones. Mostly wonders since many of the buildings will just be standard civ3 with different names (to save work).

spincrus

Feb 12, 2004, 05:04 PM

I can make the buildings/wonders, actually. I'll definitely do the leaderheads first (this weekend, hopefully). I can also handle the wonders, I suppose. The ones mentioned on my signature are not that great, but I improved a lot since then.

aaminion00

Feb 12, 2004, 05:43 PM

Well personally I wish you'd wait until we were sure of the civs, but I understand. That said the following civs would be nice (all medieval if possible of course):

Austria
Naples
Venice
Hungary
Serbia
Bosnia
Wallachia
Byzantium (Think you've done this)
Ottomans (Probably done as well)
Ay Koyunlu
Mamelukes
Crimean Khaganate
Safavids
Hejaz
The "other" Turkish state/s in Eastern Anatolia

spincrus

Feb 12, 2004, 05:53 PM

I will redo the Ottoman flag, I suppose (darken it a little, clear out the blurryness, etc)

Late Byzantium, and even the Kingdom of Greece are done, yes.

I'm not sure on what to do with the "other" Turkish states in Eastern Anatolia. I'm not sure which one to take as the basis. I think I'll just make up a flag.

EDIT: By the way, yes, that's a good enough list of civs, I'd say :)

BTW, we might be the only ones working on this ( :sad: ), but the rest will FOREVER REGRET IT! :mwaha:

mrtn

Feb 13, 2004, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by SpincruS
...BTW, we might be the only ones working on this ( :sad: ), but the rest will FOREVER REGRET IT! :mwaha: I kinda follow the thread, at least. I'm unsure how big the map will be, and if my computer will be able to handle it, but I'll try. :) As I'm working on two fantasy mods already my modding curriculum is kinda full. ;)

aaminion00

Feb 13, 2004, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by mrtn
I kinda follow the thread, at least. I'm unsure how big the map will be, and if my computer will be able to handle it, but I'll try. :) As I'm working on two fantasy mods already my modding curriculum is kinda full. ;)

mrtn, I have one thing in particular I'd like your help on. Unless I'm mistaken (sorry SpincruS), SpincruS can't make the advisor.pcx's for his flag leaderheads. I'm wondering if once SpincruS is done with the flags you could make the advisor.pcx like you did for Unexisted's Nubian leaderhead?

mrtn

Feb 13, 2004, 10:44 AM

Probably, but ask me when it's time. :) You might need to send me a PM. ;)

spincrus

Feb 13, 2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by aaminion00

mrtn, I have one thing in particular I'd like your help on. Unless I'm mistaken (sorry SpincruS), SpincruS can't make the advisor.pcx's for his flag leaderheads. I'm wondering if once SpincruS is done with the flags you could make the advisor.pcx like you did for Unexisted's Nubian leaderhead? No need for apologies. In theory I *can* do them, but usually producing so many other files eats away from the time to do the rest. I can't even do them for my own, sometimes...

aaminion00

Feb 13, 2004, 09:04 PM

@mrtn - Excellent. And the map by the way, is not very large at all.

@All

Here are the icons I plan to use on the tech tree. I'll start making the skeletons over the weekend, and then as the buildings/units/resources are decided upon, we'll implement them (phase 3). Noticve that I'm missing two icons, so if anyone can make the following I'd be very happy.

Medieval Philosophy

I'd like either a monk working on translating a latin text in his monastery, or a picture representing Arabic philosophy and learning. Perhaps some Arabic calligraphy representing science?

Sultanate

Best would just be a Coat of Arms of the Ottoman Sultanate, or something representing this style of govermant overall. OR we could make the current "Islamic Influence" icon the Sultanate icon, and find a new one for Islamic influence, which would perhaps be easier.

spincrus

Feb 13, 2004, 09:23 PM

Medieval Philosophy:
http://www.lukart.co.uk/scriptorium/sai-3/fa0301x4-tugra.gif

Coat of Arms:
http://www.turkmusikisi.com/yeni_boyutlar/tugra.jpg

I guess I can find a better coat of arms though.

aaminion00

Feb 13, 2004, 09:25 PM

They're both nice, especially the Coat of Arms. Mrtn, do you think you could get them the right size and format for civilopedia icons?

aaminion00

Feb 14, 2004, 12:06 AM

First Era - Rough Draft- Preview

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/aamrototechpreview.jpg

mrtn

Feb 14, 2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by aaminion00
They're both nice, especially the Coat of Arms. Mrtn, do you think you could get them the right size and format for civilopedia icons? The coat of arms may be quite boring in civ size, just a yellow blur. :undecide: Besides, yellow and white doesn't contrast very much.
I'll give them a try. I'll probably remove the fringe in the upper one, to not loose too much details.

spincrus

Feb 14, 2004, 12:39 PM

What about these? I can find you a bunch more, I suppose.

http://65.122.110.233/webs/osm/images/osmanli-devlet-armasi2.gif
http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/tr_images/armalar/arma1.jpg
http://www.sevde.de/Osmanli.jpg
http://www.harunyahya.org/cep_kitaplari/adaletvehosgoru/res/OSMANLI.jpg

Etc...

spincrus

Feb 14, 2004, 12:44 PM

Here's another one:
http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/img/Calligraphy/Calligraphy0048.JPG

OK I'll stop :)

aaminion00

Feb 14, 2004, 12:54 PM

:lol: mrtn, the choice is yours

mrtn

Feb 14, 2004, 09:58 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/mrtnrototechicons.jpg
The Med Phil small icon sucks, but that's your fault, choosing such a weird starting pic. :p ;)

spincrus

Feb 15, 2004, 01:40 AM

mrtn (or should I call you Martin? ;) ), how do you say "Ottoman Empire" in Swedish? I see that the coat of arms image is named "Osmanseal", so I just wondered :)

I guess it's only the Anglophones (sp?) who say "Ottoman" to "Osmanli" (or Osmanisches Reich in German; I guess it's similar to this in Swedish?)

aaminion00

Feb 15, 2004, 02:48 PM

Guys, there was a bit of a mix-up. I changed my e-mail but didn't know i had to reverify my account. I just did that and can finally post again.

I think as soon as I implement these icons, we should start civilopedia entries for them. After that we'll agree upon the units/resources/buildings/wonders, and iplement them. Then we move on to the next age and so on.

spincrus

Feb 15, 2004, 03:01 PM

Great. It's surely going to take some time, which I don't have this week (but will eventually have the following week), so slow process is better for me too (Uni... sheesh...).

I guess the hardest parts are the civilopedia entries, since they are the ones which take so long.

By the way, aaminion00, do you have AIM, ICQ or MSN?

aaminion00

Feb 15, 2004, 04:09 PM

SpincruS, yes I do have an AIM screen name; it's exactly the same as my nick on these boards.

The civilopedie entries themselves should be sort of easy actually! Since that's the one thing I can do to help people making mods (I can't do any graphics), I've done a lot of them and actually like it somewhat. Tonight we'll just finalize the 1st era tech tree; once that is done, we'll do the civilopedia entries over the next week.

The hardest part will be implementing everything in on top of the existing epic-game strucutre in place without any mistakes that will ruin the game.

mrtn

Feb 15, 2004, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS
mrtn (or should I call you Martin? ;) ), how do you say "Ottoman Empire" in Swedish? I see that the coat of arms image is named "Osmanseal", so I just wondered :)

I guess it's only the Anglophones (sp?) who say "Ottoman" to "Osmanli" (or Osmanisches Reich in German; I guess it's similar to this in Swedish?) Either mrtn or Martin works, but if you want anyone else to know you mean me you can use mrtn. :)
We call it "Osmanska riket", so it's pretty similar to German, as is most names of European cities south or east of Germany. Like Venedig, Neapel and Ungern, to give a few examples.

So I guess I made a slight cock-up when naming those files, can you ever forgive me? :cry: ;)

BTW, no one has called me Great Saviour yet for making those icons... :mad: ;)

aaminion00

Feb 15, 2004, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by mrtn
BTW, no one has called me Great Saviour yet for making those icons... :mad: ;)

You're now officialy Martin-Pasha. :p

I'll post the latest planning tonight.

aaminion00

Feb 15, 2004, 06:53 PM

Improvement Chart

Improvement Effect RotO Equivalent Advancement

Aqueduct City growth past 6 Bathhouse Public Works
Barracks Veteran Units Barracks Medieval Warfare
City Walls Defensive Bonus Castle Feudalism
Collosseum Content citizens Theater Public Works
Courthouse Less corruption Courthouse Bureaucracy
Library Increased sciences Kulliye Medieval Sciences
Marketplace Increased gold Carsiya Mercantilism
Temple Content citizens Mosque State Religion
Church

Ancient Era Improvements to be Included in Later Eras

Granary
Harbor

1st Era Units

Note that later on in this phase, we will add many more units. These are simply the standards available to all civs. For exampe, the Byzantines, Ottomans, Persians, and Arab Civs, will not be able to build knights, but have Cataphracts, Ghazis, Safavid Cavalry, and Camel Riders respectivelly (Although Camel Riders will merely require a camel resource).

Unit Advancement

Settler (no Prequesite)
Worker (no Prequesite)
Militiaman (no Prequesite)
Archer (no Prequesite)
Horseman (no Prequesite)
Med. Infantry (Medieval Warfare)
Pikeman (Medieval Warfare)
Knights (Medieval Warfare)
Crossbowman (Ballistics)
Trebuchets (Ballistics)
Siege Cannon (Gunpowder)
Cog (Mercantilism)

Wonders Chart

Wonder Effect RotO Equivalent Prequesite

Great Wall Defensive bonus ??? unknown
Collosus Commerce bonus Docks of Venice Mercantilism
Great Library Every 2 AI Techs Kulliye of Bayezid Medieval Philosophy
Hanging Gardens Happiness bonus Mostar Bridge Public Works
Oracle Doubles Temples Suleymaniye Mosque State Architecture
Temple of Artemis Temple every city Blue Mosque State Architecture
Statue of Zeus Produce unit Kosovo Monument (Knights) State Religion

Wonders to be Included in Later Age

Lighthouse
Pyramid

1st Era Resources

Strategic Resouces

Christian Villages (State Religion)
Muslim Villages (Islamic Influence)
Timber (Ballistics)
Iron (Medieval Warfare)
Horses (no Prequesite)
Gunpowder (Gunpowder)

Luxury Resources

Dyes
Incense
Perfume
Spices (graphics needed)
Honey
Wool

Bonus Resources

Gold
Silver
Wheat
Fish
Cattle
Olives

aaminion00

Feb 15, 2004, 08:34 PM

Ok, that's it :cool: :D

Tomorrow I'll make an actual tech tree diagram with everything in the right place. Then we'll put it all in the right place, find the graphics, and fill in the civilopedia. One by one.

aaminion00

Feb 16, 2004, 07:44 PM

Thread named changed. Now people will finally understand what were talking about :cool: :lol:

The official "code" however will be RotO ;)

I'll write civilopedie entries for a few technologies tonight. I won't be able to implement anything for a while though... my dad is 'restarting' the whole computer or w/e (something about the drive or reformating or something like that) :(

So just civilopedia and planning work for a few days.

spincrus

Feb 16, 2004, 09:43 PM

To prevent any data loss, you can actually send a copy to me or mrtn.

aaminion00

Feb 16, 2004, 10:36 PM

I'm confident nothing will be lost.

Medieval Warfare

For Europe, the middle ages were very much a time of near continous warfare between nobles and local lords. The tactics and strategy of Ancient Rome were forgotten as it's empire was divided among the various barbarians who took it's land and religion. Warfare throughout the Middle Ages advanced by various developments, ranging from the stirrup to smelting. Most armies in the medieval world relied most heavily on their mounted soldiers. In Europe these were typically knights, but elsewhere camels and horse archers were also common. Archery was used, but achieved it's greatest significance after the development of the crossbow and mastery of the longbow by British marksmen. Medieval Warfare comes to a close with the development of gunpowder, which ushers in a new age of strategy.

Medieval Philosophy

Philosophy was in a different state in the Middle Ages than it was in the classical times of Ancient Greece and Rome. In a world where Monotheistic religion played perhaps the most important role in everything from daily life to international politics, much of the philosophy of the time was theologically oriented. Christian thinkers for years debated the nature of Jesus and Marie, with such controversies leading to the split between the Roman Church and Constantinople. Such philosophy was also present in the Muslim World, where discussion of ideas between educated minds was commonplace in Harun al Rashid's Baghdad.

Ballistics

To be completed later.

Gunpowder

Already included in Epic Game.

Medieval Sciences

Although European scientific advancement in the Middle Ages paled to it's latter golden age in the 16th century, it was certailny not nonexistent. Much of the Classical heritage and philosophy that fueled the Rennaissance was preserved in the middle ages. Since latin was the language of the church and the educated for years, the mathamatics of Euclid, the astronomy of ptolemy, and the works of Aristotle were all well known to late medieval scholars. Farther South in the Arab lands, philosophy and science had been thriving for centuries. Muslim scholars had made breakthroughs in Physics, Optics, Mathametics, and Medicines, even perfecting a system of Arabic Numerals that would go on to replace the old Roman system that was present in Europe at the time.

aaminion00

Feb 18, 2004, 02:57 PM

I'll have 2 weeks off of school on Friday, and then the fun really starts.

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 18, 2004, 03:33 PM

maybe it was spoken, if you set the era up to 1600s, add French Alliance wonder that acts like Smith's Trading Co. (the last era you add, maybe after a technology like modern diplomacy or whatever, cost moderate, available to everyone)

also, set assimilation rates that ottomans assimilate faster...

spincrus

Feb 18, 2004, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by nebuchadnezzar
maybe it was spoken, if you set the era up to 1600s, add French Alliance wonder that acts like Smith's Trading Co. (the last era you add, maybe after a technology like modern diplomacy or whatever, cost moderate, available to everyone)

also, set assimilation rates that ottomans assimilate faster... Thank you. But these are details that have to be considered later on, when the eras are completely finished.

But I like the idea of implementing the French Alliance thing. We've been talking about how to actually have the French in this scenario in the first place, and thought that a wonder might solve it.

But I'm not sure if it should work like the Smith's Trading Co... I mean, even in the short term (don't even mind the long term) the capitulations were a burden.

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 18, 2004, 03:42 PM

some suggestions on units..
with gunpowder tech, put only one unit, hand cannoneer, that could bombard and a good attack, moderate def. i think cannons should come with metallurgy (or change name) and good gunpowder units with "gunpowder tactics" or whatever..

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 18, 2004, 03:45 PM

you're right SpincruS, but the idea was that.. here, we'll play the short term (up to death of kanuni) i think

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 18, 2004, 04:12 PM

i've found info about the history of ottmans (very easy, dates of wars, importances and results) .. however, it's in turkish..
http://www.aysebulut.com/ozet/osmanli1.html
check it if you know turkish. just the age we want to implement..

spincrus

Feb 19, 2004, 12:16 AM

Actually, there are some quite good stuff on the link you've posted, that can directly find their ways into the civilopedia.

Thanks for the link, it's a very nicely put summary. The only thing, though, that left an ironic smile on my face, was the similarity of the content on this website with the ones we had in highschool textbooks :D

Example:

Balkanlar'in Turk topragi oldugu ispatlandi.

(note to nebuchadnezzar: Ne zaman "Turk topragi" oldu ki? "Osmanli topragi" demeleri daha mantikli olurmus, devletin multikulturel bir yapisi oldugunu dusunursek :) )

But since this is just a Civ scenario, the source that you provided is good. People don't expect us to cite the studies of Halil Inalcik or Ilber Ortayli, anyway :)

(secondary note to nebuchadnezzar: why not work on a "Kurtulus Savasi" [Turkish War of Independence] scenario together? PM me for contact info if you want).

Rita Poon

Feb 19, 2004, 01:49 PM

Good scenario. Have you considered re-naming "Leo DaVinci's" workshop to "Hazerfan Ahmet Celebi's" workshop?

aaminion00

Feb 19, 2004, 05:07 PM

Well I don't understand any Turkish, so that site doesn't help me much. I'll continue civilopedia entries saturday. Until then, keep discussing this thread

I'd rather keep it Leonardo da Vinci's workshop. I want this to have a little European flavor, since half the civs are European. This isn't just the Ottomans. Since this mod includes the rennaisance and Italy is included on the map, I think Leonardo's workshop should be in there.

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 20, 2004, 02:05 PM

Turkish War of Independence.. i'm in.. let's do it.. we need real leaderheads (especially Mustafa Kemal), a good map and good desicion of units..

go back to topic,
what's the last situation of tech tree? make gunpowder units dominate in later ages.. first usage of cannons was to scare enemy units, and gunpowder units were too slow to reload..

spincrus

Feb 20, 2004, 02:09 PM

aaminion00 won't be able to do anything today, maybe not even tomorrow, since he won't have access to his computer due to some technical issues.

aaminion00

Feb 21, 2004, 11:02 AM

Maybe tonight. We'll see.

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 02:28 PM

Ok, work has been started again. 1st era tech tree will be completed by the end of today.

Yoda Power

Feb 22, 2004, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
Ok, work has been started again. 1st era tech tree will be completed by the end of today. Cant you just use the currency icon?

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Cant you just use the currency icon?

Guess why I edited the post :lol:

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 03:33 PM

Medieval Warfare

For Europe, the middle ages were very much a time of near continous warfare between nobles and local lords. The tactics and strategy of Ancient Rome were forgotten as it's empire was divided among the various barbarians who took it's land and religion. Warfare throughout the Middle Ages advanced by various developments, ranging from the stirrup to smelting. Most armies in the medieval world relied most heavily on their mounted soldiers. In Europe these were typically knights, but elsewhere camels and horse archers were also common. Archery was used, but achieved it's greatest significance after the development of the crossbow and mastery of the longbow by British marksmen. Medieval Warfare comes to a close with the development of gunpowder, which ushers in a new age of strategy.

Medieval Philosophy

Philosophy was in a different state in the Middle Ages than it was in the classical times of Ancient Greece and Rome. In a world where Monotheistic religion played perhaps the most important role in everything from daily life to international politics, much of the philosophy of the time was theologically oriented. Christian thinkers for years debated the nature of Jesus and Marie, with such controversies leading to the split between the Roman Church and Constantinople. Such philosophy was also present in the Muslim World, where discussion of ideas between educated minds was commonplace in Harun al Rashid's Baghdad.

Ballistics

The study of ballistics is the study of flying projectiles; a science that has been applied to warfare since ancient times. The first widely accepted use of ballistics came in the form of war machines such as catapults or ballista. The fisrt catapults appeared in later Greek times, among people such as Dionysius of Syracuse, Onomarchus of Phocis, and even the legendary Alexander the Great, who perfected it's role in the battlefield as well as in sieges. Various modifications to standard catapult strategy and general ballistics developed throughout the ages, and this often gave way to more advanced siege machines. The latest popular non-gunpowder ballistical weapon was the trebuchet, developed in 12th century Italy, and introduced to much of Medieval Europe within another hundred years. Even with the development of gunpowder, trebuchets were still used as an occasional alternative. When gunpowder was in short supply at the siege of the Aztec capital of Tenochitlan in 1521, Hernan Cortes was said to have used trebuchets to continue it. The advent of gunpowder however, only created a new phase in the study of ballistics. The new science of ballistics was published in 1537 by Italian Nicolo Tartagila, at a time when cannons had already made catapults and trebuchets a thing of the past.

Gunpowder

Already included in Epic Game.

Medieval Sciences

Although European scientific advancement in the Middle Ages paled to it's latter golden age in the 16th century, it was certailny not nonexistent. Much of the Classical heritage and philosophy that fueled the Rennaissance was preserved in the middle ages. Since latin was the language of the church and the educated for years, the mathamatics of Euclid, the astronomy of ptolemy, and the works of Aristotle were all well known to late medieval scholars. Farther South in the Arab lands, philosophy and science had been thriving for centuries. Muslim scholars had made breakthroughs in Physics, Optics, Mathametics, and Medicines, even perfecting a system of Arabic Numerals that would go on to replace the old Roman system that was present in Europe at the time.

Medieval Economics

The Medieval period was marked by the disruption of the flourishing commerce of the ancient world, and it's economic life was dominated by feudalism. As the ancient empires of old dissapeared and became replaced by feudalism, currency began to vary greatly from area to area. The value of the coin depended on which type of metal it was made from. The most valuable coins were gold, then silver, and then copper. This was widely recognized as a "standard" of currency throughout the medieval world. Although there were many, the Byzantine Nomisma for a while stood above the rest, as the Byzantine Empire's vast holdings made it the standard of exchange in the Mediterranean world. Muslims did not begin to use coins until after the conquest of Byzantine lands. The most important Muslim coin became the gold dinar, which often had inscriptions from the Qur'an that reflected it's Islamic ideals. Basic trade of goods was also popular, and fairs became important events to the area where they took place.

Public Works

Public Works are a combination of politics and economics. They are some constructable object that improves the nation's infrastructure for the good of it's economy and populace. Medieval examples included mines, canals, roads, tunnels, harbors, and religious buildings. Public works in the middle ages were often financed by local merchants, but sometimes by higher authorities. These public works were intended to instill pride of ownership, not only in the ecclesiatic and royal authorities who held them in trust, but also in the hearts and minds of the citizens who built and used them, increasing favor for the ruler that brought it about. To this effect, such buildings were unbelievably successful, in that they actually instill pride of ownership in the public mind hundreds of years after they were built.

Bureaucracy (Bull****ted)

Bureaucracy is an organizational structure characterized by regularized procedure, division of responsibility, hierarchy, and impersonal relationships. A complex yet efficient bureaucracy existed in the realms of the Byzantine empire by the late medieval ages, wtih many different jobs and roles involved. Upon the capture of the important Byzantine city of Bursa, the Ottomans also became known for their efficient bureaucracy. Thus came the Ottomans' reputation for meticolous recording and analysis of nearly all major aspects of their empire.

Feudalism

Already included in Epic Game.

State Architecture

Whereas public works came on many levels, from local merchants to powerful lords, State Architecture was almost always grand and elaborate. Ranging from Cathedrals and academies in the Christian world, to Mosques and Kulliyes in the Islamic world, state architecture left us with some of the greatest architectural works of the time. The Ottoman state was particularly involved in great building projects. A succession of Ottoman Sultans undertook extensive building campaigns in the city which became the Ottoman capital, including mosques, universities, and marketplaces. The centralized Ottoman bureaucracy oversaw building throughout the empire, resulting in the fostering of a generally homogenous Ottoman architectural style throughout the Islamic world.

Monarchy

Already included in Epic Game.

State Religion

A state religion is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state. The degree of state endorsement of a state religion varies, from mere endorsement and financial support with freedom for other faiths to practice, to prohibiting any competing religion from operating and persecuting the followers of other religion. In the early medieval ages, travel between countries was rare, and religious identity was simple. There was only one Christian church, that of Rome, and Islam had only recently split between the Sunni and Shi'ite factions, more over a political matter than anything else. As sciences and philosophy led to theological discussion and different religious factions appeared, coinciding with increased expansion, travel, and trade between major world powers, the role of the state in religion became far more important.

Islamic Influence

For the first several centuries of it's history, Islam was a predominantly Arab affair. It rose from Mecca in the Arabian peninsula, and grew first and foremost among the arabic tribes of the area. When the Islamic Caliphate expanded to include many Christians and Jews under the rule of the Ummayads, conversion to Islam was even discouraged, as the Ummayads wanted Islam to remain a faith of the Arabs. This all changed in the closing centuries of the first millenium a.d., when various Turkic people moving Westward encountered Islam. Many converted, and after the 10th century, Turkic soldiers in the army of the Abbasid caliphate emerged as the de facto rulers of most of the Muslim Middle East. The Seljuks, were the first dominant Turkic dynasty, controlling much of these lands, but they declined with the coming of the Mongols. This gave rise to the little sultanate of Osman, which quickly became the most powerful Turkic empire in history, spreading their own brand of Islamic culture from it's heartland all the way to Hungary.

Sultanate

Sultan is an Arabic word for ruler, and was the name used by many Islamic monarchs, including ones of Arabic, Turkish, and Malaysian descent. A land ruled by a Sultan was said to be a Sultanate. In modern English, the term is most often translated to king. The Ottoman Sultanate depended on the strength of it's central goverment, spearheaded by powerful Sultans. Much of it's decline can be attributed to a period of weak Sultans who failed to keep up with the empire's western counterparts.

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 04:48 PM

Finally I'm done with the civilopedia entries. Tonight I will do the following things:

1) Change "Mercantilism" to "Medieval Economics" in the according places.

2) Implement these civilopedia texts

3) Erase unnecessary text from epic game 1st era techs

4) Add in 1st era units

5) Erase unnecessary text from epic game 1st era units

After this... well I have a confession to make. I don't know how to add in buildings or resources :(. I'll have to check out the tutorials available, and then I'll probably add the buildings and resources over the next week.

SpincruS do you think you could make some of the wonders?

spincrus

Feb 22, 2004, 04:53 PM

Adding in buildings and resources are pretty easy. But first, we have to finish ALL the buildings, so that we can actually add them all easily. Leave the buildings and wonders to me (and the other ppl who're in charge of graphics).

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 05:32 PM

So you're saying we should just do what we've done so far to the 1st era to all the eras, and then add in the buildings? O.k., that would be a smart way to do it.

But it makes me kind of depressed to see such an empty tech tree, lol...

I think we should figure out all the basic units (there aren't that many), and what resources are needed. Then we make the resources. Then we finish an era, add the units, next era, finish units again, etc. etc.

In the meantime you work on the buildings and what/not. Most of the buildings will be just standard civ3 buildings except occasionally with a different name. It's the wonders that will be tricky. They're very hard to figure out. We'll have to do some more planning to figure out exactly where they go, but you should start working on the ones sure to be in when you can (Topkapi palace, Mostar bridge etc.).

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 06:42 PM

Damnit I knew I forgot something. The biq file. Oh well, that'll only take about 40 minutes to redo. :lol:

spincrus

Feb 22, 2004, 08:49 PM

Are you serious? Oh boy :lol:

aaminion00

Feb 22, 2004, 09:03 PM

hayýr kaygý :cool:

I redid the whole biq file. Not only that but I fixed all errors with the 1st era tech tree, added the civilopedia text, and am about to finish adding in the units (without the resources we have determined).

p.s. I hope I got the thing above right. Online translators aren't always that good. "No Worry" right?

Edit: That's all I'm doing for tonight. UGH. Adding in our units while getting rid of all the firaxis standard game crap will be a ****ing nightmare.

spincrus

Feb 22, 2004, 10:17 PM

I hear you. Then we should go era by era...

p.s: It's "dert etme", meaning "don't worry". but "kaygilanma" is another one :D Nice try ;) I learned another word today: Zaga? :lol:

Sims2789

Feb 22, 2004, 10:47 PM

why don't you use your Flags as Leaderheads for the leaderheads for your civs?

Sims2789

Feb 22, 2004, 10:55 PM

wrong thread. please delete.

spincrus

Feb 23, 2004, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Sims2789
why don't you use your Flags as Leaderheads for the leaderheads for your civs? I'm making a special leaderhead pack for the civs in this scenario, so don't worry ;)

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 12:18 PM

I figure the follwoing are the "basic" units we'll include in the mod. No flavor units are included except for the janissary, but rest assured flavor units will play a big role in this mod. With this being the pretty much finalized list, you can find the list of resources below. If we want any more basic units, or as we just add in flavor units, it should be easy to add one or two resources.

Settler (none)
Worker (none)
Militia (none)
Bowman (none)
Horseman (Horses)
Med. Infantry (Iron)
Pikeman (Iron)
Knights (Iron) (Horses)
Crossbowman
Trebuchets (Timber)
Siege Cannon (Saltpeter) (Iron)
Cog (Timber)

Medieval Galley (Timber)
Galeass (Timber) (Saltpeter)
Janissary (Saltpeter) (Christian Villages)
Arquebusier (Saltpeter)
Curiasser (Horses) (Saltpeter)
Cannon (Saltpeter)

Mercenary troops (Mercenary Contract)
Privateers (Saltpeter) (Timber) (Mercenary Contract)
Frigate (Saltpeter) (Timber)
Galleon (Timber) (Saltpeter)
Cavalry (Saltpeter) (Horses)
Musketman (none)

Otherwise I feel this below is what we need. If someone could make the few resources we need, or just point out where I could find the ones that are already made, I'd be very greatful. I think we should add these into the game first. Then we'll go era by era, erasing all firaxis things, and slowly adding our own into the biq. file.

RESOURCE LIST

Strategic Resources

Christian Villages
Muslim Villages
Timber
Iron
Horses
Saltpeter
Quary
Mercenary contracts
Camels

Luxury Resources

Dyes
incense
Perfume
Spices
Honey
Wool
Rakiya

Bonus Resources

Gold
Silver
Wheat
Fish
Cattle
Olives
Oasis

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 12:21 PM

Of those, the ones we need made are

Christian Villages
Muslim Villages
Mercenary Tactics
Perfume
Honey

Ones I know exist, but am not sure where

Timber
Camels
Wool
Olives

spincrus

Feb 23, 2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
Of those, the ones we need made are

Christian Villages
Muslim Villages
Mercenary Tactics
Perfume
Honey

Ones I know exist, but am not sure where

Timber
Camels
Wool
Olives I have the Camel graphics, and am using them for my personal mod. If I can find who made it though...

Wool - We could just use the C3C one.
Olives - Also the C3C olive oil resource is a nice one.

Mercenary tactics - hmmm...

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 12:30 PM

I sent a PM to Gogf asking him if he could make those 5 resources. If not, we'll have to look elsewhere, but hopefully he'll take it up.

p.s. I'm not sure what Zaga is :confused:, sorry

Edit: I realized I forgot Oasis as a bonus resources. That and we could use the conquest Japanese Sake resource for Rakiya :lol:

Yoda Power

Feb 23, 2004, 12:38 PM

I can make the Christian and Muslim villages if all you want is some small "cities?"

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Yoda Power
I can make the Christian and Muslim villages if all you want is some small "cities?"

That would be excellent, please do!

Also, I found Wool in the Conquests art folder, so that means we only need two custom made resources: Honey and Perfume.

Edit: I've also found a bunch of buildings we could use in there. Naval academy, city park, everything. But those are conquests... so would they appear in the city view or...

Yoda Power

Feb 23, 2004, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00

That would be excellent, please do!
How does this look? (hope you can see the difference between christian and muslim;))

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 01:05 PM

That would be great. Can you make the civilopedia icons?

Yoda Power

Feb 23, 2004, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
That would be great. Can you make the civilopedia icons? Afraid not, just made these 'cause its easy and I had 15mins to kill;)

Yoda Power

Feb 23, 2004, 01:09 PM

oh forgot the download(I must be getting old)

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Afraid not, just made these 'cause its easy and I had 15mins to kill;)

lol, alright, either way that's good. Maybe someone else could make the civilopedia icons.

aaminion00

Feb 23, 2004, 02:25 PM

Well apparently the map isn't very good... at all. I'll go PM Boreas to see if he could do something better.

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 24, 2004, 03:55 AM

another unit idea: armenian heavy cavalry: good at deffence, highly expensive, needs iron, horses, "armenian villages"

these units played an important role in that period..

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by nebuchadnezzar
another unit idea: armenian heavy cavalry: good at deffence, highly expensive, needs iron, horses, "armenian villages"

these units played an important role in that period..

Forgive my ignorance, but was there an armenia at that time?

Mongoloid Cow

Feb 24, 2004, 03:12 PM

Until 1375 there was Lesser Armenia in Cilicia. Greater Armenia (in what is now the country Armenia, the part of Aremnia in Turkey and a couple of other regions) was not independent again until 1722, being passed around from one empire to the next.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 04:20 PM

Thanks for the info :). I think they're a little too early for this mod then

@nebuchadnezzar - The "Cannon" that comes with the Gunpowder tech is just a siege cannon. The more advanced cannon comes later.

@Anyone who knows!

I'm working on making a .pcx of the necessary resources right now but... what do I do about the shadows? How important are they to the game? Obviously I wont be able to make shadows for all of these resources, is there any way to disable them?

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 04:46 PM

Ok, after a brief copy and paste session, we have all the resources in place. We won't have any shadows, I hope nobody is heart broken by this. The only reseources missing are:

Honey
Perfume

Of course, absolutely no work has been done as far as civilopedia and pediaicons go, and I'm still not 100% sure I know how to add resources. However, they do show up in the editor, so I have a feeling it will work.

I still don't know what to do with the map :(. I am now convinced it's horrible, but I have no idea where to get a new one. If anyone is willing to take up a Balkans and Middle East map, or knows someone who would, be my guest. Until then we're stuck with the one we have, which has many geographical flaws. On the bright side, it'll fit right in with the other Firaxis maps.

spincrus

Feb 24, 2004, 04:49 PM

@nebuchadnezzar: don't worry about such details yet. We already talked about those mostly (especially the siege cannon part was already mentioned). Let's get the core thing going first.

@aaminion00: zaga is supposed to mean "donkey" as far as I know (it's just the name of a TV show in Turkey but I've been told that it's Bosnian).

Anyway, I'll make the shadows if you want.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 04:49 PM

And here's a rough JPEG version of the resources.

Row 1: Muslim Villages, Christian Villages, Timber, Horses, Iron, Saltpeter
Row 2: Quary, Mercenaries, Camels, Dyes, Incense, Perfume (Blank)
Row 3: Spices, Honey (Blank), Wool, Rakiya, Gold, Silver
Row 4: Wheat, Fish, Cattle, Olives, Oasis

I'm not sure how resources work, but that's 23. If I'm correct we can only add 1 more.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS
@aaminion00: zaga is supposed to mean "donkey" as far as I know (it's just the name of a TV show in Turkey but I've been told that it's Bosnian).

Anyway, I'll make the shadows if you want.

Ah donkey. I've never heard of Zaga. It's "Magarac", pronounced Magaratz :)

Here's the resources and the empty shadow pcx. Is that what you need?

Oh and also regarding the map, two people have said it's "Pretty Good" so I'm guessing most people wouldn't mind.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 04:56 PM

Ohh, maybe you mean "Mazga"? That's the cross between a female donkey and a horse. That or between a female horse and a donkey. One of those two.

mrtn

Feb 24, 2004, 05:17 PM

In "My Resources" link in my sig I have a earthen jug/pot used as a butter pot, but I assume you can use it for honey as well. :)
Maybe you could use a rose or something symbolising perfume?

spincrus

Feb 24, 2004, 05:17 PM

Most of them have already shadows that come with the game. I'll just assemble them together. The villages and all don't need shadows anyway, since they are, err, too big to drop any shadow :P

I'll do the honey and parfume if you want, tho.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS
Most of them have already shadows that come with the game. I'll just assemble them together. The villages and all don't need shadows anyway, since they are, err, too big to drop any shadow :P

I'll do the honey and parfume if you want, tho.

The problem with that is I didn't exactly place the resources in there in the same position as they were in their original pcx's, so they might appear a bit "off". Should I go ahead and redo it with the resources in the exactly right place?

As for mrtn, yes, thank you we'll use your jug. And since I have found a rose resource somewhere among the PTW fan made scenarios, I think no new resources are necessary!

Captin Zebra

Feb 24, 2004, 05:30 PM

i've been folllowing this thread and i would like to know if there is something small i might be able to do. nothing to difficult because i'm not too experienced with editing.:undecide:

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Captin Zebra
i've been folllowing this thread and i would like to know if there is something small i might be able to do. nothing to difficult because i'm not too experienced with editing.:undecide:

I'm sure there'll be something you can do soon enough. Also, it won't be for a while, but if you want you could be one of the testers when the scenario is nearing completion.

spincrus

Feb 24, 2004, 05:46 PM

Yes! Let's use the rose instead of the perfume.

Don't forget that the Anatolian roses are very famous (ever eaten Turkish Delights with rose flavor?) Rose aroma is used in a lot of middle eastern dishes.

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 05:55 PM

:lol: Alright, but you come up with the civilopedia entry.

But you didn't answer me. Should I redo the pcx.?

Captin Zebra

Feb 24, 2004, 06:07 PM

if you want you could be one of the testers when the scenario is nearing completion.

thanks, i would like to do that for you when your finished. again, if you think of something small ill be happy to do it for you or at least help.

spincrus

Feb 24, 2004, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by aaminion00
But you didn't answer me. Should I redo the pcx.?:lol: I got so carried away I completely forgot why I was posting an answer in the first place.

It's no big deal, I can handle that :)

a4phantom

Feb 24, 2004, 10:09 PM

What are you thinking for soundtrack? I think that throughout the game the song "Istanbul not Constantinople" should play over and over and over again.

Sims2789

Feb 24, 2004, 10:30 PM

^ :lol:

aaminion00

Feb 24, 2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by a4phantom
What are you thinking for soundtrack? I think that throughout the game the song "Istanbul not Constantinople" should play over and over and over again.

Well, we can't change the game's music :rolleyes:, but I'm sure that SpincruS would agree with me that if we could (ftp://ftp.e-kolay.net/galatasaray/galatasaray%20marsi.mp3)...

spincrus

Feb 24, 2004, 11:12 PM

Even though I have respect for Galatasaray;
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~btopal/images/fenerbahce.gif

;)

They're playing each other this sunday. Fenerbahce has beaten Galatasaray about a year ago or two, with a score of 6-0.

History will repeat itself! :mwaha:

mrtn

Feb 25, 2004, 03:04 AM

You can change the music. In the text folder (in the AoD conquest, for instance) there is a file called music.txt
I've never modded it, but it seems kinda obvious how it works.
Personally I always listen to winamp while playing civ, though.

aaminion00

Feb 25, 2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by mrtn
You can change the music. In the text folder (in the AoD conquest, for instance) there is a file called music.txt
I've never modded it, but it seems kinda obvious how it works.
Personally I always listen to winamp while playing civ, though.

I've heard however, that if people try to change the music that it slows down the game incredibly. The only thing we could do is replace one era's music with another.

nebuchadnezzar

Feb 25, 2004, 12:56 PM

SpincruS!! do not make me fill here with galatasaray's uefa cup victory photos!!! or should I put super cup photos?? or the tree stars over the logo?

@aaminion00
the idea of "armenian cavalry" does not need an independent armenian empire.. armenians lived about all regions of anatolia that time, and worked (also fought) for countries which they are in..

spincrus

Feb 25, 2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by nebuchadnezzar
SpincruS!! do not make me fill here with galatasaray's uefa cup victory photos!!! or should I put super cup photos?? or the tree stars over the logo?As I said before, history will repeat itself! :mwaha:

@aaminion00
the idea of "armenian cavalry" does not need an independent armenian empire.. armenians lived about all regions of anatolia that time, and worked (also fought) for countries which they are in.. That's true actually, but I can't really recall any obvious Armenian cavalry units at the time. Weren't they just regular "timarli sipahi"?

aaminion00

Feb 25, 2004, 02:12 PM

Some of the units I plan to use. I haven't asked for permission, so none are gurranteed.

Xen

Feb 25, 2004, 02:32 PM

an interesting note- cataphracts wer elong gone in the Byzantine arsenal by this time- to expensive- i suggest using the norman knight by kal-el, as it more accurtalyl reflect the type of cavalry used at the time- BUT, if you wanted to include cataphracts, I suppose that if you made some luxry resource in the heart of anatolia a key component for the Byzantines to make cataphracts (forceing them to either trade, or expand to get it) that would be cool

also, as another note, I suggest makeing whatever government you give to the Byzantines to start toff with a high unit maitenance costs...

spincrus

Feb 25, 2004, 02:47 PM

Here's one of the buildings I made in like half an hour. Tried to make it as Civ-like as possible.

I've got other non-Civ related stuff to do right now, though :(

Here's the Mostar Bridge:

mrtn

Feb 25, 2004, 03:04 PM

SpincruS, lovely Mostar Bridge! It seems a bit low, but that's maybe just the view? :hmm:

spincrus

Feb 25, 2004, 03:17 PM

Thank you! :)

Yes it's just the view. The bridge is actually pretty high on the peak (you know, it's one of those old-type bridges).

When I get the chance, I'll work on a better version of the Blue Mosque...

aaminion00

Feb 25, 2004, 09:32 PM

Ooh, nice.

spincrus

Feb 25, 2004, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Xen
an interesting note- cataphracts wer elong gone in the Byzantine arsenal by this time- to expensive- i suggest using the norman knight by kal-el, as it more accurtalyl reflect the type of cavalry used at the time- BUT, if you wanted to include cataphracts, I suppose that if you made some luxry resource in the heart of anatolia a key component for the Byzantines to make cataphracts (forceing them to either trade, or expand to get it) that would be cool

also, as another note, I suggest makeing whatever government you give to the Byzantines to start toff with a high unit maitenance costs... That is a very good point, Xen, but I'd think that the cataphract animations could be used as an early form of the sipahi (before gunpowder got commonly used in the armies).

But for the Byzantium cavalry, I guess the Norman Knight would be better.

I suppose aaminion00 only posted the units that he was thinking of using for the Ottomans.

a4phantom

Feb 25, 2004, 09:59 PM

When I buy Conquests, this is the first mod I'll play. (That won't be till Summer, so no pressure guys).

a4phantom

Feb 25, 2004, 10:47 PM

PS the units are gorgeous.

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 11:53 AM

Ok, I need help again. I figure if we get the resources, and tech tree done right now, the rest of the mod should go pretty smoothly. I haven't added the arrows into the 1st era yet, because I don't know how stretched the advance boxes will be once we add in all the units and buildings. Thus, that will come later. Either way, I'm doing the frame for the 2nd era tech tree (SpincruS, are the resources close to being ready?). I need civilopedia icons for the following two techs:

Beutification
Janissary Caste

So if someone can find the images online and someone else (mrtn :mischief:) can make them into civilopedia icons that'd be great.

Also, perhaps an "Artistry" icon would be nice. I'm currently planning to use the "Free Artistry" icon, but that looks a little too... well... "Free". I'd like something such as the Mona Lisa.

Originally posted by SpincruS
I suppose aaminion00 only posted the units that he was thinking of using for the Ottomans.

Hehe, err, yes of course :blush:

Originally posted by a4phantom
When I buy Conquests, this is the first mod I'll play. (That won't be till Summer, so no pressure guys).

PS the units are gorgeous.

Thanks, hopefully you'll stay interested by the time we're done :lol:. The unit's aren't ours of course, most of them are by Aaglo, Kinboat, and BeBro. You can find them right now in the Unit Graphics forum.

a4phantom

Feb 26, 2004, 02:58 PM

I'm sure I'll still be interested, I just started playing the Ottos and I love them. I'm reading up on the history and I can't wait to see what you guys do with them.

"Whenever you're near I hear a Sipahi . . ."

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 03:11 PM

Resources are almost ready. I just got back home, and I'll be doing them right now. I'm replacing some of the resources with graphics that are more civ-like. I'm also considering of replacing the Raki (Rakiya) graphics (which is the Sake graphics from C3C) with an Europa Universalis 2 conversion of mine, if you think is OK?

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by SpincruS
Resources are almost ready. I just got back home, and I'll be doing them right now. I'm replacing some of the resources with graphics that are more civ-like. I'm also considering of replacing the Raki (Rakiya) graphics (which is the Sake graphics from C3C) with an Europa Universalis 2 conversion of mine, if you think is OK?

Of course feel free.

Xen

Feb 26, 2004, 04:34 PM

just a question- what exactley are you planning in regards to Byzantine forces? i can help a lot in this aspect, if you gutys will tell me what you have planned :) (and what date all this is takeing place at again)

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 04:42 PM

Hmm, well I'm not sure of the exact starting and ending dates, they're buried somewhere within this thread. It's exactly 250 turns long I think. Either way, in general terms, the technology represented is supposed to be late 14th to late 17th century, with a few extras from way behind or way in front of those times (Horsemen, Nationalism, etc. etc.).

Byzantium will be a playable nation, but it's in there more as "the Ottoman's first Big Challenge" than anything. It would be possibly to win as the Byzantines though. In fact, we'd have to handicap them some other ways if we wanted to reflect their decline. That's one reason I wanted to include the cataphract... I'd like Byzantine flavor units that are considerably more expensive than those of the other civilizations.

Xen

Feb 26, 2004, 04:46 PM

I'll get back to you on exact uniuts then, but, first off, like I said, the main cavalry unit for byzantium at this point woul dbe somthing I keep forgetting the name of that bears closes resemblence to Kinboat norman cavalry at this time- I suggest a possible upgrade being the Xenophract :D, a 10-10-2 unit with the spam ability ;)

Xen

Feb 26, 2004, 04:47 PM

as far a handicap, how about the [b]initial units availible to Byzantium be rather run of the mill at best (which was true), and rather expensive (also true)

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 06:05 PM

Here are the resources, re-edited, re-worked. I'll just explain some of the graphics here:

I don't know who's timber that is, but it looks nice and I've been using it for a long time already. There's a high possibility that I got that from the "huge resources file" that's present in the graphics modpacks forum.

The parchment&feather is supposed to be the Mercenary Contract. I just changed it and decided to use my Europa Universalis conversion of it.

I don't know where I got the camel from, neither, but since I saw that aaminion00 actually used it, I decided to switch it with my own, which is somewhat smaller.

I made the rose from scratch.

The honey resource is a deviation of Arne's graphics. I just removed the honey that has spilled out and just left the cube itself. It looks much better with the shadow (I just removed the shadow of the graphic itself and "translated" into the Civ-type shadows, so that it renders it smoother)

I replaced the sake with some converted graphics from Europa Universalis 2. Now it fits raki much more (the shapes of the bottle, etc).

At last, without taking aaminion00's permission (sorry!), I though that the scenario actually needed a whale replacement, and I thought the swordfish (or tuna, whichever you choose) would be a good one to add. Again, I have NO idea where I got this from, but I re-edited it a while back, adding really cool (whale-like) underwater shadows.

The resources are as follows:

Row 1: Muslim Villages, Christian Villages, Timber, Horses, Iron, Saltpeter
Row 2: Quary, Mercenaries, Camels, Dyes, Incense, Roses
Row 3: Spices, Honey, Wool, Raki, Gold, Silver
Row 4: Wheat, Fish, Cattle, Olives, Oasis, Swordfish

By the way, we can add as many resources as we want.

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 06:11 PM

Ooh, very nice. And congratulations on the 200th post.

One thing... if it's not too hard... is there an olive resource somewhere or must we settle for using the "olive oil" resource instead?

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 06:32 PM

mrtn has done some olive resources, but I think the olive oil would add a bit more variety to the whole thing. Otherwise there are too many plants.

And oh yeah... Congrads on our 200th post ;)

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 07:00 PM

I've been looking for a cesme (Ottoman-style fountain) picture to do the "beautification" pedia icons with, but the ones I found are SO bad, that I actually had to settle to the interior of the Hagia Sophia (after the Islamic decoration). Sorry about that.

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 07:01 PM

The Janissary Barracks, on the other hand, is the entrance to the Topkapi Palace (it should remind you of the cannon towers in Age of Kings ;) ) Well the name "topkapi" means "cannon tower" anyway.

I have to add, that I'm not that satisfied with neither of them.

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 07:02 PM

WHAT?!?! :eek:

...

Cesma is a Turkish word!??

No problem, the Hagia Sophia interior is fine, although it'd be nice to have a fountain building

spincrus

Feb 26, 2004, 07:12 PM

:lol: It's Turkish yes.

If you can find a decent cesme I'll definitely use that. One of the most beautiful cesmes in Istanbul exists in Emirgan, although it's a small one. I love it though. Then comes the Hagia Sophian cesme (which I found a picture of, but it's smaller than the smileys on these forums :p )

Oh, and I'm just putting all the files to a folder on my computer, and I'll send them all to you when necessary. After the mod's posted in its final form, I'll actually post some of these buildings and graphics separately, but I'll wait till the mod's launched.

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 07:35 PM

The Cesma in Begova Dzamija, Sarajevo

Yes, you can see construction going on behind it, but on a civilopedia icon level that's hardly noticable. Plus the only other good one I could find was from Dubrovnik so... :o

Err, if picture doesn't work: http://amie.250x.com/pictures/bosnia/bosnia_fountain.jpg

http://amie.250x.com/pictures/bosnia/bosnia_fountain.jpg

aaminion00

Feb 26, 2004, 09:18 PM

Fountain:

aaminion00

Feb 27, 2004, 02:04 AM

Ok, I'm going to go to sleep soon, but before I do I want to post this. SpincruS, I was telling this to you on AIM... or I thought I was, until I realized I was typing in the wrong box, lol. Here it is anyways:

If I can get the civilopedia icons by tomorrow night, I'd be able to finish the framework/skeleton for all three eras by monday at the latest. Maybe even Saturday if I have some free time and work hard.

From there, I'd hope it would be about a week per era, meaningw we spend a week adding buildings, wonders, units, all that good stuff.

Then we spend a few days going back to do all the things we've missed.

Then we spend a week on the civilizations, and crafting the game to suit them.

Then a few days of actually putting everything on the map.

Then we release the BETA version to testers and try it out for a week or so.

Then we spend a few days fixing all mistakes, and editing all the Editing tabs of lesser importance (Name for entertainers, etc. etc.) and adding anything we've missed to make the mod better (Medieval advisor graphics throughout, etc. etc.).

All in all I think we'll hopefully be done in 2 months.

But I also had bad news. Crew season starts Monday so I won't have as much time to work on it.

mrtn

Feb 27, 2004, 02:38 AM

SpincruS, I'd like that swordfish (and shadow) please, if you can post it? :D

Yoda Power

Feb 27, 2004, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by aaminion00
One thing... if it's not too hard... is there an olive resource somewhere or must we settle for using the "olive oil" resource instead? I was using a olive resource in the MEM that was some green "Wines" resource. It looked pretty neat. Its also in DYP afaik.

spincrus

Feb 27, 2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by mrtn
SpincruS, I'd like that swordfish (and shadow) please, if you can post it? :D :lol: sure...

I won't post this as a separate thread, because the initial version was not done by me (the shadows and all were pretty bad in the initial version).

It's just a remake by me.

The resource:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/swordfish-spincrus_edition.png

The shadow:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/swordfish-spincrus_edition-shadows.png

The file:

spincrus

Feb 27, 2004, 11:05 AM

@aaminion00: OK, consider them done by tonight. I'll be working on the cesme now (I'll actually try to add some vegetation and everything, and re-work the janissary barracks, maybe...)

By the way, the olive resources I was talking about (that mrtn has done before) can be found in this thread of his:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53819

aaminion00

Feb 27, 2004, 12:00 PM

Umm, SpincruS, it turns out swordfish are only in the North Americas...

Muslim Villages

The move from the countryside to the cities was a very slow and gradual one untill the development of electricity, and in the Middle Ages the vast majority of the population were farmers living in small villages scattered across the land. Muslims in the middle ages were very religious and mosques were usually the most important buildings in their towns.

Christian Villages

The move from the countryside to the cities was a very slow and gradual one untill the development of electricity, and in the Middle Ages the vast majority of the population were farmers living in small villages scattered across the land. Christians in the middle ages were very religious and churches were usually the most important buildings in their towns.

Timber

Timber is a term used to describe clusters of trees, or wood used as a structural material. During the middle ages, Timber was used in everything from simple construction projects to the building of warships. Many countries had forests well known for strong trees, such as the famous British oaks, which were preferred for quality timber. While everyone has trees, only a few forests have trees strong enough to work well as timber for ships. Timber remained vitaly important until the Industrial Revolution, at which point Coal replaced timbers for use as fuel, while brick replaced timber for use in construction.

Horses

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Iron

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Saltpeter

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Quary

Quarrying was the most common means of extracting stone from hills during the Middle Ages. The oldest surface-mining technique in history, it consists essentially of digging a hole at the base of a hill known to have quality stone deposits and using masons and quarriers to dig out the biggest pieces (to be shaped later). Quarrying is an incredibly inefficient process, with a huge degree of waste in both material and labor (since all the useless rock around the good bits has to be carried out of the quarry). Nonetheless, until the development of underground mining techniques, most stone buildings were constructed from quarried stone, and quarries were highly coveted features of a lord's lands. A lord could often extract considerable prices for quarrying rights in his domain, when he had no need or desire to build a new castle.

Mercenaries

A mercenary is a soldier who fights for money, regardless of ideological, national, or political considerations. Mercenaries were widely used throughout history, and especially in the Middle Ages. The Byzantines, Andalusian Muslims, and Aragonese Spaniards all used mercenaries widely in their armies. The Byzantine Emperors specifically even had foreigners in their personal corps guard, including Varangians and Agnlo-Saxons. Swiss mercenaries were highly sought after during the latter half of the 15th century, but declined due to their ineffectiveness against arquebuses and arillery. After the Swiss, the Landsknechts took over their legacy and became the most formidable force of the 16th century, being hired by all the powers in Europe and often fighting at opposite sides.

Camels

Camels are an animal native to the dry and desert areas of Asia and Northern Africa. They are characterized by the hump/s on their backs, and are split into two groups based on whether they have one or two of them. Camels are reknowned for their ability to last for long periods of time without water in the desert, meaning that for cultures around them they were often ideal for trading and warfare in the desert.

Dyes

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Incense

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Roses

SpincruS, this one's for you.

Spices

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Honey

Honey is a sweet and viscous fluid produced by bees and other insects from the nectar of flowers. The flavor and color of the substance is largely determined by the type of the flowers from which the nectar is gathered. Honey i reknowned for it's sweet taste, and is often part of traditional folk medicine.

Wool

Wool, the hair shorn from sheep, was a fundamental economic good during the Middle Ages. It produced warm clothing and stayed warm even in the rain. It is also a strong, easily repaired, easily dyed, and perhaps most importantly, relatively cheap fabric.

Raki

Raki is a well known Turkish beverage as strong as Vodka, but made from fruit that is popular throughout the Balkan peninsula. It was introduced by the Ottomans, but has become wildly popular from Greece to Slovenia. Today, Raki exists in many various varieties perfected by the many cultures that adopted it since the 15th century.

Gold

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Silver

Silver was an important commodity for medieval men, used not only for coinage but also for weapons, cooking utensils and other household items. At the height of the Roman Empire, silver mines were annually producing about 80,000 tons of lead slag (a byproduct of the silver smelting process), and at least 1% of this went into the air. In fact, silver mining was done on such a large scale during Roman times that traces of the pollution caused by the extraction process is evident even today in Greenland’s ice packs. According to one source, the eventual depletion of the Mediterranean’s lead and silver mines resulted in a shortage of silver coins, helping to hasten the downfall of the Roman Empire. Later in the middle ages, silver was the second most valuable coin type, and nations and cities with significant silver mines were held with great importance.

Wheat

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Fish

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Cattle

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Olives

Olives are the fruit of the olive tree, which can be found in abundance around the Mediterranean Sea and has been used since ancient times for food and olive oil. Olive Oil represented wealth since ancient times, among cultures such as the Minoans and Romans.

Oasis

Civilopedia included in Epic Game.

Swordfish