any with an interesting UU to test - Persia, Japan, France, England (man-o-war was changed), Portugal.

RUS PAG CRI

AUT NOR CRI

POR NOR CRI
Russia should have the Norse religion. The Viking trade routes that wound down Russia's rivers and led to Constantinople brought all kinds of Norse culture into early Russia.

Why would Austria be Norse? Same thing with Portugal. I don't know much about them, but I'm curious to see why you list them there. (Well, I do know that Austria really didn't have enough of a population to exist as a state before the Frankish kingdom started expanding.

Because now with NOR I intend nordic, not only Norse.
I switched the celtic religions from pagan to generic nordic/european.

Nordic as in Aryan?

Oh boy ;p

I'm going mad with the HDs. Now both are causing problems. I have to burn the data I saved on my 2nd HD on some DVDs, because it is no longer safe.
Sorry for the inconvenience...

I'm going mad with the HDs. Now both are causing problems. I have to burn the data I saved on my 2nd HD on some DVDs, because it is no longer safe.
Sorry for the inconvenience...
The inconvenience is all yours, go and save your data, we can wait.
BTW, if your hard disk dies while you're trying to save data off of it, put it in a dry, well-sealed container in the freezer for a few hours and then take it out and plug it back in to your computer... The coolness helps keep integrity for a bit longer, sometimes long enough to save that critical last library.

Rhye, at 3/4/1 the Samurai isn't a very awe inspiring UU. It isn't available until chivalry which makes it's usefullness end quickly when the 3/4/1 musketeer appears soon after with firearms. 3 attack just seems low for what should be a fearsome unit. Perhaps 5/3/1 or 4/4/1 would be better?

5/3/1 would put them on par with crusaders as the dominant foot unit until fusiliers or even 4/3/1 would be fine.

Is it just me or has anyone else testing RocX noticed that the AI seems to be far more aggressive?

I've had a go with Greece, Austria and Spain up until the end of the ancient age and each game has turned into an all-out slug-fest with everyone at war with me! I've never seen anything like it. It certainly makes the game harder. :goodjob:

One thing I've noticed is that the roaming horse archers can seriously limit (AI) Austrian development. I think the worker rarely gets a chance to build anything.

The inconvenience is all yours, go and save your data, we can wait.
BTW, if your hard disk dies while you're trying to save data off of it, put it in a dry, well-sealed container in the freezer for a few hours and then take it out and plug it back in to your computer... The coolness helps keep integrity for a bit longer, sometimes long enough to save that critical last library.

Interesting tip, never heard of that one before. I had an HD die before and simply disconnecting and reconnecting the data cable each time it refused to spin up was enough to get it back to life at boot up.

I think some of the aggression is due to some bug or setting that is allowing certain AI to amass huge quantities of gold. In my current test game, the Persians have 6,000+ gold in the early middle ages. This allows them to buy everybody into war against anyone foolish enough to take them on. I've seen similiar things happen with the Germans, Austrians, and Russians in older versions of regular RoC.

I think some of the aggression is due to some bug or setting that is allowing certain AI to amass huge quantities of gold. In my current test game, the Persians have 6,000+ gold in the early middle ages. This allows them to buy everybody into war against anyone foolish enough to take them on. I've seen similiar things happen with the Germans, Austrians, and Russians in older versions of regular RoC.

Yes, I just noticed in my last game Israel had 3500 gold in the 1300's and was doing exactly as you described. I've noticed this before but never really thought much about it... :blush:

I think some of the aggression is due to some bug or setting that is allowing certain AI to amass huge quantities of gold. In my current test game, the Persians have 6,000+ gold in the early middle ages. This allows them to buy everybody into war against anyone foolish enough to take them on. I've seen similiar things happen with the Germans, Austrians, and Russians in older versions of regular RoC.
In my current game (which I already won but am conquering in for fun... Or rather trying to capitalize on an out-of control world war caused by massive overuse of military alliances) Greece had about 10k gold by the industrial age... But they didn't seem to buy wars, rather they seemed to play tech broker, and often I had to pay for a tech from them (till I managed to start selling them techs for lucrative GPT+tech deals.)
I actually tried to see where the income was from using Investigate City (this is what i do when I'm bored and rich in Communism) and found one possible explaination: ancient wonders that gave them a heap of tourism money. More likely they made most of it by selling techs to everybody else (including me)... Tech went pretty quickly in this game once we got to the industrial age... I think we hit most industrial techs a few decades early, and modern techs even moreso.

->I haven't discovered why they earn so much money. It doesn't seem to depend on the government. Maybe it's the min. research turns that allows the huge income?

->I think the aggression level is due to the high number of civs in the game.

-> There's the new tech tree but still not the tech weights. It would be useful if you told me the year of era changes with Emperor level, in 0.22

Rhye, at 3/4/1 the Samurai isn't a very awe inspiring UU. It isn't available until chivalry which makes it's usefullness end quickly when the 3/4/1 musketeer appears soon after with firearms. 3 attack just seems low for what should be a fearsome unit. Perhaps 5/3/1 or 4/4/1 would be better?

5/3/1 would put them on par with crusaders as the dominant foot unit until fusiliers or even 4/3/1 would be fine.

Right now it is:
3/3/1 standard pikeman
4/3/1 tercio
3/4/1 samurai (+1 hp)
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

and I think it's a good solution.

Otherwise I'd have to change in this way:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
5/3/1 tercio
4/4/1 samurai (+1 hp)
5/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +20 gold)

Can't Swiss Mercenary just have 3/4/1 and no Iron at normal price? The rest of the "otherwise" setup sounds good, really.

horton said that 3/4/1 is weak. He probably didn't consider the +1 hp.

If you've got the same HP system as in standard RoC, then +1 HP isn't all that great. It's nice, yeah, but not quite equal to an extra point of attack or defense.

The list of the wonders is almost complete.

Now what's missing is:
-1 northern european wonder
-1 hindu wonder (Angkor Wat seems good but the wonder needs a PROPER name - not the name of the city!!)
-1 pagan wonder
-one jewish-only improvement for the 2nd tech (medieval).

another solution:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
4/3/1 tercio
4/4/1 samurai (+1 hp, +10 gold)
3/5/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

another solution:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
4/3/1 tercio
4/4/1 samurai (+1 hp, +10 gold)
3/5/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)
Sounds good.
About the wonders, you did relocate all current religion-related wonders to the proper religions, right?
Maybe you should also use the religion system to keep non-religious wonders in the right regions, what is now done with resource requirements?
About the jewish improvement, like I said Syanaogue would be good. Should give two content faces and reduce corruption. Should replace the Cathedral for the Hebrews (only Chrisitans should build Cathedrals, muslims should build Mosques, dunno about the rest.)
The whole Temple->Cathedral system may require a remake dependant on religion... They don't necessarily have to actually all be different, but they should at least look different and have different names. For the Jews I'd say (Sacrificial) Altar in ancient age, one content face and cheap. Synagogue should not require it, as by the time Synagogues became the place of worship sacrificial ritual was abandoned (there's still one prayer remaining in the morning prayers that is supposed to replace the sacrifice, and the afternoon prayer session is called Minha, which basically means "offering" in the religious sense as it was once the session in which sacrifice was conducted.)
Too tired at the moment to try and give ideas about other religions.

The temple will remain the same for all the civs.
The specific improvements will be a feature of the middle ages optional techs.
The cathedral will be Christian only. It is Mosquee for Islam, Synagogue for Jews and something else (Monastery?) for Buddhism.

Now, there should be something else allowed by "Jewish Theology" (BTW is there a more appropriate name?) or by "Judaism".

The sacrifical altar is an improvement available to Mesos and generic Pagan. I could give them to Judaism, too. And Synagogues should have something better than cathedrals etc. to compensate the fact that the tech doesn't allow wonders.

Otherwise, I simply have to add a Medieval wonder or improvement available with Jewish Theology.

If you've got the same HP system as in standard RoC, then +1 HP isn't all that great. It's nice, yeah, but not quite equal to an extra point of attack or defense.

I know, but I'd leave the +2hps to Elephants only

1) Now, there should be something else allowed by "Jewish Theology" (BTW is there a more appropriate name?) or by "Judaism".

2) The sacrifical altar is an improvement available to Mesos and generic Pagan. I could give them to Judaism, too. 3) And Synagogues should have something better than cathedrals etc. to compensate the fact that the tech doesn't allow wonders.

4) Otherwise, I simply have to add a Medieval wonder or improvement available with Jewish Theology.
1. Jewish Theology is ok I guess... Can't think of anything better atm.
2. Yes, do that.
3. Just give Synagogue 3 content faces plus the corruption reduction. That's better than cathedral. BTW, what will be the difference between Mosque and Cathedral?
4. There are several books you could use as wonders but I think it's really unfair giving a great wonder to a single civ with no competition.

I have noticed the same thing (RE: Gold problem) with various civs, but mostly persia and israel. Kinda weird.

I would say corruption reduction is rather silly for Israel, since they are not exactly positioned for massive imperial expansion. How about make it extremely powerful culturally (for an improvement, not a wonder!) which DOES make tons of sense, to me at least ;p

Epic of Gilgamesh for the pagan wonder, if that is the right area of the world.

Northern European... some kind of sacred grove? Remember the druids! ;p

For the Hindu wonder, something that recognizes the importance of the Ganges would be nice.

For the Jews... I cannot think of anything besides synagogue that has already been mentioned, mostly because, since they lacked a state for such a large part of history, they never really built the amazing structures that longer lived nations, and cultures who were not being constantly uprooted, did.

Perhaps you could give them a small wonder in the Modern Ages that does the same thing as the 2x growth wonder, and call it the Return or some such (I am not 100% sure this morning as to whether Diaspora means Return or Dispersal, so I will leave that up to you guys ;p).

I have not tested recently, been too busy getting my college apps together, but if things go as planned I will have the rest of the year open, and most of next year too!

Here's the complete list of religion-related wonders.
In brackets the number of civs with that trait.

Please correct me if there are mispells or mistakes.


Greek (3):
- Temple of Artemis
- Statue of Zeus

Egyptian (1):
- The Great Pyramid

Zoroastrian (1):
- Mausoleom of Mausollos

Pagan (11):
- Moai Statues(easter island)
- Baal's sacrificial altar
- Epic of Gilgamesh

Confucian (2):
- Terracotta Army

Shintoist (1):
- Izumo Shrine

Hinduist (1):
- Sacred river (Ganges)

Jewish (1):
- Temple Mount (Jerusalem)

Mesoamerican (3):
- Temple of the Sun
- Temple of Kukulkan (Chicken Itza)

Nordic (7):
- Ubsola (Asa temple at Uppsala)
- Stonehenge

---------------------now the middle ages--------------

Christian (18):
- Knights Templar
- St Peter's Basilica (Rome)
- Papal States

Muslim (8):
- Holy War
- Black Stone (Mecca)

Buddhist (4):
- Potala Palace (Tibet)

Here's the complete list.
Please correct me if there are mispells or mistakes.

Pagan:

- Moai (easter island)

The name of the island is Rapa Nui

The name of the island is Rapa Nui


Isn't the same thing?

I have one more question for you, Chukchi.

I noticed an Encyclopedia that says that Babylon was the capital city of BABYLONIA, not Babylon.
It's quite difficult for me, because in italian it's simply "Babilonia".

So, it this encyclopedia correct and Civ3 wrong?

Mind listing the effects of all the wonders?

Mind listing the effects of all the wonders?


I haven't decided all of them.

All I can say is that the terracotta army will produce Qin Spearmen
Baal's altar and one of the two Meso wonders will double the sacrifice points
Ubsola (which I don't know if it's better to be called simply "Asa great temple") will be militaristic. It could produce ulfsarks, or simply the same as sun tzu.
Sacred River will require a river and increase commerce.

I have one more question for you, Chukchi.

I noticed an Encyclopedia that says that Babylon was the capital city of BABYLONIA, not Babylon.
It's quite difficult for me, because in italian it's simply "Babilonia".

So, it this encyclopedia correct and Civ3 wrong?
Babylon is the capital of Babylonia and later the capital of the Chaldean empire. (The Babylonian for Babylon is Bab-ilu)

So if this is the fact, I'll change the nation name to Babylonia, for the basic version, too. I'll add it to the next patch list.

I would suggest that wonders that were in reality built in the capital (the one in the game, not necesarily the real one) should require Palace in their city so there's a better chance of realism.
How about the effects for Temple Mount?
What I suggested was 2 happy faces in its city (and/or possibly one content in all other cities on the continent if you want) plus very high culture rating of 6 or 8 and can become tourist attraction.
I'd suggest something similar for the black stone of Mecca.

Thanks for the great mod, I really love it! :goodjob:

I must say though that playing any European civ is far to easy if you make the right starting moves: Since Settlers are 4x more expensive, you just need to focus on getting archers, and perhaps barracks and one worker. By the time you got 4-5 archers, your neigbors normally have finished their first settler, moving away from their capital with a couple of warriors. The idiots. Because my archers are only two turns from their capital, where normally only one spearman or 2 warriors are left behind. After that you've got a big advantage over everyone else (because EVERY AI builds expensive settlers), tech trading does the rest.
I did that on C3C 1.22, RoC 2.62, Emperor difficulty, as both the Germans and Spain. As Bismarck I managed to completely take out Netherlands and France before Iron Working, gaining 4 cities for free. Austria fell soon after. As Isabella I captured Lisboa at first and then lazily walked up towards Rome with 4 archers. Funny enough, Rome moved out with their first settler and two warriors the very turn I arrived... :mischief:

So here are some suggestions to avoid the early conquests (on Emperor at least, haven't played on God or Sid yet) :
- make Archers and Swordsmen more expensive
- give everyone one "Palace Guard" (4 defense, 0 movement)
- if at all possible, prevent AI from building a settler on turn one...maybe make settlers generally available later?!

Now, what are all you people here talking about version 0.22 ?!? I couldn't find anything else but 2.62.

karmina, we're talking about the alpha of the expansion pack for the mod.
Rhye, I just realized something... Shouldn't Jerusalem be constructed on a Hills square? The whole area here is nothing but hills and hills and hills... =S And most of Israel is either hills, desert, or grassland (up north)... In your map it's all plains, which we have a very little bit of.

I just realized something... Shouldn't Jerusalem be constructed on a Hills square? The whole area here is nothing but hills and hills and hills... =S And most of Israel is either hills, desert, or grassland (up north)... In your map it's all plains, which we have a very little bit of.

There's a hill just next to it. A hill in the starting location will deform the coastline (try and see)

Thanks for the great mod, I really love it! :goodjob:

I must say though that playing any European civ is far to easy if you make the right starting moves: Since Settlers are 4x more expensive, you just need to focus on getting archers, and perhaps barracks and one worker. By the time you got 4-5 archers, your neigbors normally have finished their first settler, moving away from their capital with a couple of warriors. The idiots. Because my archers are only two turns from their capital, where normally only one spearman or 2 warriors are left behind. After that you've got a big advantage over everyone else (because EVERY AI builds expensive settlers), tech trading does the rest.
I did that on C3C 1.22, RoC 2.62, Emperor difficulty, as both the Germans and Spain. As Bismarck I managed to completely take out Netherlands and France before Iron Working, gaining 4 cities for free. Austria fell soon after. As Isabella I captured Lisboa at first and then lazily walked up towards Rome with 4 archers. Funny enough, Rome moved out with their first settler and two warriors the very turn I arrived... :mischief:

So here are some suggestions to avoid the early conquests (on Emperor at least, haven't played on God or Sid yet) :
- make Archers and Swordsmen more expensive
- give everyone one "Palace Guard" (4 defense, 0 movement)
- if at all possible, prevent AI from building a settler on turn one...maybe make settlers generally available later?!

Now, what are all you people here talking about version 0.22 ?!? I couldn't find anything else but 2.62.


Thanks for your comments.

The problem you mentioned is well-known.
AI seems quite stupid, and some adjustments were already made:
- warrior code not available at the beginning for anyone
- palace gives 30% defense.


With the expansion pack there will not be a 2/1/1 unit.
The first unit with attack 2 will be the spearman (2/2/1), which will come a bit later in the tech tree.
Instead the archer will be 1/2/1, and I could even give warrior code now as a starting tech to some civs in danger like Netherlands, Portugal, etc.

Bleh, for some reason the editor won't let me put a hill there unless there's a hill in the old place as well or grassland all around. o_O
I see what you mean about the coastline... Can't you use some LM to fix it or simply alter the way the graphics look in this kind of place?
Also, there should be a mountain tile around where Israel's northern border is in reality... There's a large mountain range there. Any chance of having the Jordan river is as well?
(All of these matters don't really bother me that much, just nitpicking a bit. =P)

Bleh, for some reason the editor won't let me put a hill there unless there's a hill in the old place as well or grassland all around. o_O
I see what you mean about the coastline... Can't you use some LM to fix it or simply alter the way the graphics look in this kind of place?
Also, there should be a mountain tile around where Israel's northern border is in reality... There's a large mountain range there. Any chance of having the Jordan river is as well?
(All of these matters don't really bother me that much, just nitpicking a bit. =P)

No, sorry.
A river there would create flood plains.
LM terrains wouldn't change the situation. The coastline would become a promontory.

The problem you mentioned is well-known.
AI seems quite stupid, and some adjustments were already made:
- warrior code not available at the beginning for anyone
- palace gives 30% defense.
But that's in 2.62 already, right? Doesn't really help much.
So there isn't a way to change AI decisions regarding settlers, I suppose.

With the expansion pack there will not be a 2/1/1 unit.
The first unit with attack 2 will be the spearman (2/2/1), which will come a bit later in the tech tree.
Instead the archer will be 1/2/1, and I could even give warrior code now as a starting tech to some civs in danger like Netherlands, Portugal, etc.
Nice to hear!
Is there an ETA for the expansion pack already...?
I'm really looking forward to it - just make sure your mod doesn't get too overcrowded like RaR. Looking at the tech tree of RaR is fun, but playing the game until the end is not. Also it can get pretty unbalanced.

Is there an ETA for the expansion pack already...?
I'm really looking forward to it - just make sure your mod doesn't get too overcrowded like RaR. Looking at the tech tree of RaR is fun, but playing the game until the end is not. Also it can get pretty unbalanced.

Our goal is the end of the month. I'll do my best to achieve this.

You can be sure that it won't be overcrowded.
You'll get the same number of added things, but nothing redundant.
You won't be able to build 500 units and research 500 techs in the intricated tree. There will be more diversification.
A 2nd UU for each civ, religious traits, new wonders, new upgrade lines (the archers thing is a part of it), new tech tree and flavour units are the main scheme.

I have one more question for you, Chukchi.

I noticed an Encyclopedia that says that Babylon was the capital city of BABYLONIA, not Babylon.
It's quite difficult for me, because in italian it's simply "Babilonia".

So, it this encyclopedia correct and Civ3 wrong?
In English, the civilization is always referred to as Babylon.

Babylonia refers more to the land than the actual nation.

So, to put it simply, Babylonia is the land where Babylonians come from. The Babylonians were the citizens of Babylon.

I think 3/5/1 is too much defensive power for swiss mercs. No offensive unit will be able to touch them for almost a full age.

Samurai would be best at 4/2/1 I think. That way it is a potent attacker and can still replace spearmen as a defender.

A while ago we were talking about hot air balloons and where they should be on the tech tree, right?

Well, I'd recently read about a book published around 1405 featuring all kinds of war machines, including hot air balloons.

I don't know if they were actually in use at that point, but they did have the technology to build them in the 15th century.

You'd leave Japan with spearmen until crossbowmen.

Now it is:
3/3/1 standard pikeman
4/3/1 tercio
3/4/1 samurai (+1 hp)
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

I propose another solution again:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
4/3/1 tercio
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)
4/4/1 samurai (+1 hp, +10 gold)

A while ago we were talking about hot air balloons and where they should be on the tech tree, right?

Well, I'd recently read about a book published around 1405 featuring all kinds of war machines, including hot air balloons.

I don't know if they were actually in use at that point, but they did have the technology to build them in the 15th century.

That's true, but what if we consider Leonardo's inventions?
I think they should be placed when they were there has been a first consistent use.

Instead, the problem is about Zeppelin.
It was supposed to replace baloon, but they come much later. IMO they're better replacing bomber, with lower stats but come much earlier.

4/4/1 +1 hp is ungodly tough for that era. What attacker unit will really have a chance against them? Remember how incredibly strong we found the 3/3/1 +1 hp legions to be? This is the same situation.

Samurai, imo, should be a strong attacker type with decent defense. Muskets come quickly enough after chivalry so having to stick with a 2 defense unit for a bit longer is a good trade off for that extra hit point and attacking power.

4/2/1 +1 hp also helps balance Japan vs China. With 4/2/1 +1 hp samurai against 4/2/2 riders, both civs will be hard pressed to dominate the other.

Waitasec... RoC, unlike plain Civ, doesn't need all UUs to be completely different from one another (because in plain Civ there are very few things differentiating nations other than the UU... In RoC you've got location which makes a huge difference)... So the Samurai can have the same stats as Tercio (only with +1 HP and +10 cost). That would make its defense good enough to last for a while but not too much for other attackers to handle. Also remember that HP bonuses multiply your stats.

I'd like to differentiate them.
And I can't see why current settings are so bad.
You say that 4/4/1 +1 hp is too strong, but you said that 3/4/1 +1 hp was too weak. IMO it was ok.

There's only one reason that I can see.
It could be argued that Japan hasn't horses near, so it needs a 4 points-attacker.
Then it could be swapped with the Tercio:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
3/4/1 tercio
4/3/1 samurai (no hp bonus, it's an excellent unit anyway)
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

Look, Samurais are some of the most awesome warriors of history. Seems to me they deserve the extra HP bonus to represent how elite they are, and the extra cost to represent the fact they were not ever present in the millions. I don't exactly know what the Tercio is so I can't say anything about its stats.

I know they were stong, etc.
But I can't make some UU much more powerful than others.

Let's see, again. What do you think of this:

3/3/1 standard pikeman
3/4/1 tercio
4/3/1 samurai (+1 hp, +10 gold)
4/4/1 swiss mercenary (no iron, +10 gold)

Fine with me, but I don't know what the Tercio really is so afaik it may be totally inappropriate for them.
Also I think accuracy is more important than diversity and if two UUs are very similar than so be it... And anyway, nobody complains about (standard game) Hoplites being 1.3.1 and Numidian Mecenaries being 2.3.1 +10 cost... What's the difference between that and the Tercio 4.3.1 - Samurai 4.3.1 +1HP +10 cost thing?

Look, Samurais are some of the most awesome warriors of history. Seems to me they deserve the extra HP bonus to represent how elite they are, and the extra cost to represent the fact they were not ever present in the millions. I don't exactly know what the Tercio is so I can't say anything about its stats.I really really really (really) don't want to get into another Samurai vs. Knight debate (Every time it pops up it gets extremely bloody), but the Samurai isn't as much as it was chalked up to be. They were great, yes. They were chivalrous and such, but they couldn't do feats like in the movies, and their swords weren't able to cut through a metal pipe or anything like that.


I've got another solution to the Samurai problem, Rhye: Why aren't they replacing knights or horse archers? In truth they were horse archers, and they had a code of chivalry much like that of European knights. And Japan still did use pikemen. The way I see it, having them replace pikemen produces alot of problems - too little room to vary your pikemen UUs. I propose the following for the samurai:

Foot unit, replaces knight, requires iron
5.3.1 70 Shields

OR

Horse unit, replaces horse archer, requires horses and iron
(Whatever horse archer stats are +1 attack)

There are nice mounted samurai animations in the PTW extra folders. But are we sure that samurais were all on horse?

I'll try to send you v0.3 today.

Here's the complete list of the wonders with benefits
In brackets the number of civs with that trait.

Greek (3):
- Temple of Artemis -> standard
- Statue of Zeus ->doubles strength vs barbarians

Egyptian (1):
- The Great Pyramid -> standard

Zoroastrian (1):
- Mausoleom of Mausollos -> standard

Pagan (11):
- Moai Statues(easter island) -> +1 ship mov, must be coastal
- Baal's sacrificial altar -> doubles sacrifice
- Epic of Gilgamesh -> doubles research output

Confucian (2):
- Terracotta Army -> produces a Qin Spearman each 5 turns

Shintoist (1):
- Izumo Shrine -> same as mausoleum

Hinduist (1):
- Sacred river (Ganges) -> same as colossus, must be near a river

Jewish (1):
- Temple Mount (Jerusalem) -> same as bach, great culture (8)

Mesoamerican (3):
- Temple of the Sun -> same as Baal's
- Temple of Kukulkan (Chicken Itza) -> same as Artemis

Nordic (7):
- Ubsola (Asa temple at Uppsala) -> same as sun Tzu
- Stonehenge -> same as Oracle

---------------------now the middle ages--------------

Christian (18):
- Knights Templar -> standard
- St Peter's Basilica (Rome) -> standard (it's the Sistine Chapel renamed)
- Papal States -> huge cultural boost (10) and nothing else, requires palace

Muslim (8):
- Holy War -> standard
- Black Stone (Mecca) -> same as Temple Mount

Buddhist (4):
- Potala Palace (Tibet) -> same as Temple Mount


-------------------now all the other wonders------------

Slave Trade -> produces an African slave each 10 turns. Requires tobacco (now an American-only luxury). Slaves have 34% efficency

Statue of Liberty -> same as Great Library. Available with democracy. Requires mustangs (american horses)

Olympic Games -> same as colossus. Available with Radio

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)

Eiffel Tower -> old Adam Smith's trading c. effect

Great Wall -> a wall in every city on continent. It no longer doubles stregth vs. barbarians.

Great lighthouse -> Now +2 ship movement (considered the movement cost)

Cure for Cancer -> city growth causes +2 citizens (old Longevity)


Coprnicus obs, Longevity, Bach's cathedral were deleted.

The rest of the wonders (Oracle, etc.) remains unchanged

There are nice mounted samurai animations in the PTW extra folders. But are we sure that samurais were all on horse?

Yes. In one time period they were mounted.

The Mausoleum of Mausollos is more commonly known as the Mausoleum of Helicarnassus.

Wonder list looks GREAT! Maybe make Shakespeare's Theatre Christian? Most of his plays have a high degree of Christian thought and tradition in them, and would not have been produced in, say, Japan, where they had the Noh Theatre, which is very different!

RE: Samurai

They were classically rather excellent warriors, but indeed at their earliest they were most certainly archers. Mounts were also something they did use, but the samurai
traditionally fought on foot.

The early Samurai engaged in ritualized archery duels, much like those of the Chinese warriors of the period. The Samurai developed a code of conduct and dependency on the sword that was very similar to those of the European Knight. As to their swords slicing through metal pipes and whatnot... folded steel is very sharp, and very strong. Maybe, maybe not.

I like the stats Rhye gave them; I think it makes them into a decent attacker, with a couple of bonuses to make up for their 1 pt move. It will give Japan the ability to invade China, but not make the invasion an easy victory.

RE: Tercio

These units were sword wielding groups of Spanish infantry, Renaissance era, whose training and equipment was purposely based on that of the Roman Legion. They were extremely effective on the attack, and managed to defeat the Swiss on several occasions. They were born of the conflict with Grenada, as were most Spanish military formations.

This is not shown in their stats; to be honest, I do not understand why they do not have the same stats as the Samurai. They are both going to be performing the same duties at opposite ends of the globe.

That is all pretty summarized, but you can get a general idea of where I am coming from on this one. ;p

YAY SAT DAY! :{

Back to multiple quotes! =P
Christian (18):
- Knights Templar -> standard
- St Peter's Basilica (Rome) -> standard (it's the Sistine Chapel renamed)
- Papal States -> huge cultural boost (10) and nothing else, requires palace
With more nations than any other (more than most others put together really) Christianity needs at least 4 or 5 wonders... If there aren't any good ones to add simply move over to there non-religious wonders that were built by Chrisitan nations, as this will fill the gap of wonders for Christianity and also improve historical accuracy.

Slave Trade -> produces an African slave each 10 turns. Requires tobacco (now an American-only luxury). Slaves have 34% efficency
Errr... American-only? Do you mean only the Americans get it or it's only in America? And why does either option make sense? o_O

Statue of Liberty -> same as Great Library. Available with democracy. Requires mustangs (american horses)
Excellent! This will finally allow America to become world leaders once discovered by enough nations!

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)
Also excellent, this will allow nice colonial empires. :D

The rest of the wonders (Oracle, etc.) remains unchanged
The Oracle should be a Greek religious wonder but there are not enough nations in that religion to have three wonders... Dunno what should be done about it.

With more nations than any other (more than most others put together really) Christianity needs at least 4 or 5 wonders... If there aren't any good ones to add simply move over to there non-religious wonders that were built by Chrisitan nations, as this will fill the gap of wonders for Christianity and also improve historical accuracy.


The problem is that I can't move Shakespeare's teathre or anything else to the Christian tech, because it is just after Theology, and it allows early medieval wonders.
If I add another one, it needs to be in that period of time. But I wouldn't know what to put in...


Errr... American-only? Do you mean only the Americans get it or it's only in America? And why does either option make sense? o_O



America as a continent.
Unitl now tobacco was only in America until navigation. Then it spreads to all the world.
To have Slave Trade built on an American continent, it needs an American strategic or luxury resource.
That can only be tobacco: slaves were sent to work in tobacco and cotton fields.
So Tobacco is now a luxury, and the 2nd kind of tobacco is deleted (otherwise it would create the tobacco-to-tobacco trade)





The Oracle should be a Greek religious wonder but there are not enough nations in that religion to have three wonders... Dunno what should be done about it.


That's the problem. They will remain in that way.

Christianity MUST have more wonders, doesn't matter what wonders they are there just have to be more of them. Aren't there some other famous cathedrals, churches, or monestaries that can be used?

But the americas were not the only places to have a slave trade... Would make more sense for it to require an Indiginous Tribe start resource available in Africa.

America was by no means the only destination of the slave trade.

I don't think that the Statue of Zeus should have that ability - it just isn't useful enough in this map, seeing as there probably won't be many barbarians left by the time it is built. I vote to remove the Statue of Zeus and put the Oracle in it's place.

Stonehenge isn't a very good wonder; it was built around 3000 BC by a small tribe of people that crossed the channel from Normandy and never had any significance outside of England during the time period it was built, and later it grew into only an intriguing ruin.

I say that the Kabbah (Black Stone of Mecca) should be like the Colossus and Sacred Ganges; the Islamic requirement that every muslim must visit the city of Mecca generated boatloads of trade.

Possible Christian wonders:
- Holy Roman Empire (Get the Pope to name your country the Holy Roman Empire, no clue for effect)
- Justinian's Code (Basis of all Western law, maybe add Courthouses to every city)
- City of God (Book written by St. Augustine, pushed that every city needs a piece of the divine (A church) to guide them, effect should be obvious)

Could you rename the Knights Templar to the Crusades? It seems that the game had a mix up of cause and effect; the Crusades led to Crusaders establishing the Crusader Kingdoms in the holy lands, and then the Knights Templar was established to protect the Crusader Kingdoms.

I also would like to push for the distinction between early monarchies, which were little more than despotisms with religious approval, and the later feudal monarchies. The difference between the monarchy of Babylon and the monarchy of England is astounding.

Additionally, if you feel that the Christian countries still need more of a boost due to their sheer number, you could add the Romanesque churches as a step between temples and cathedrals. It would help every Christian country, and would certainly be realistic. I'd have them be like the temple, just available later.

Samurai fought in two real conflicts: the first Mongol invasion (Which did hit land) and that huge civil war. Both were largely defensive battles - one was an invasion, the other was a stalemate until arquebusiers came along. Therefore, it might make sense for the Samurai to be a primarily defensive unit. Maybe. It's really a design decision, though.

Finally, when do you plan on making these wonders obsolete? Some, like the Statue of Liberty, really need to go obsolete after a while. (Which reminds me, if the Statue of Liberty requires Mustangs, then will you move the Mustang resource back from Military Tradition a little bit? Democracy comes before Mil. Trad. if my memory serves me right.)

->The 4th christian wonder could be the Saint Sophia.

->The Kabbah has the same benefits as Buddhist and Jewish correspondant wonder.

-> Main slave trade was from western Africa to North America. You'll soon find lots of African workers there :)

->Democracy comes later than Mil. Tradition in the new tree

->There will be some tweaks to the governments. Later.

Trading Company -> puts an harbor in each city (Adam's Smith's was renamed)



I thought this wasn't possible since it tries to put harbors in landlocked cities and crashes the game.

X-Pack looks to be HUGE. Looking good Rhye. :goodjob:

-> Main slave trade was from western Africa to North America. You'll soon find lots of African workers there :)False, unfortunately. The main slave trade was from Africa to South America, where about 6 million africans went. The Caribbean was next, with about 1.5 million africans sent there, and North America is hardly on the list with about .5 million.

->The Kabbah has the same benefits as Buddhist and Jewish correspondant wonder.That's all nice and stuff, but there is a difference between the Temple Mount / Potala Palace and the Kabbah - every muslim was required to visit the Kabbah at least once during their lifetime. This turned Mecca into one hell of a trade city - all those pilgrims brought their money with them as well.

I thought this wasn't possible since it tries to put harbors in landlocked cities and crashes the game.


No problem for that, the company will put a Trading post in each city instead of an harbour.
But there's one problem: the harbor symbol is shown upon the city....
...anybody can suggest a solution?

No problem for that, the company will put a Trading post in each city instead of an harbour.
But there's one problem: the harbor symbol is shown upon the city....
...anybody can suggest a solution?
What's a trading post? o_O

What's a trading post? o_O

Is it a wrong term?

In any case it doesn't matter.
Try testing with the new version I'm sending you now - the "allow water trade" ability generates the harbour symbol. I really don't know what to do about it.

False, unfortunately. The main slave trade was from Africa to South America, where about 6 million africans went. The Caribbean was next, with about 1.5 million africans sent there, and North America is hardly on the list with about .5 million.

OK. In any case the wonder will be built by the strongest American nation

That's all nice and stuff, but there is a difference between the Temple Mount / Potala Palace and the Kabbah - every muslim was required to visit the Kabbah at least once during their lifetime. This turned Mecca into one hell of a trade city - all those pilgrims brought their money with them as well.


mmmm. I'll see what I can do. I must see if it is unbalancing or not.

Sent the 0.34, with 2 new WWI units, a revised tech tree, the religions and the new wonders and many other fixes.
Wonders pictures and civilopedia entries aren't included, so you'll have to look inside the editor to see the effect.
Please test the Trading Company: the "allow water trade" ability generates the harbour symbol in each city (including the landlocked cities).

Is it a wrong term?

In any case it doesn't matter.
Try testing with the new version I'm sending you now - the "allow water trade" ability generates the harbour symbol. I really don't know what to do about it.
Not a wrong term, It's just not an improvement already in the game so I meant to ask what this imp. is.
About the harbor symbol, you could just replace the harbor symbol with something a bit more universal that will explain that it is for trade. I'll try and whip something up, I have a few hours to kill.
Speaking of universal trade, don't you think Airport should generate money or something so it's not only good for trade and airflifting and those things?

Looking through the biq... You gave Cathedral 2 maintainance and Mosque, Synagogue, and Monastery 0 maintainance. Is this on purpouse?
Also I think they should have slightly different effects from one another...
Like reducing corruption, reducing war weariness, even imiltary and financial benefits that can kinda represent the effects of the institutionalized worship in some of the religions.
Also I see there is not yet the Sacrificial Altar imp... Why?
Oh, and as I said a Myhtology is not a kind of religion, it's a set of stories. Rename the "Mythology" religions Polytheism (Greek Polytheism, etc.)

Okay, I haven't managed to redo the harbor icon more universally, because I'm not much of an artist, but I can tell you what I was trying to draw:
Simply two arrows , each making half the "circle" of the icon's area, each pointing to the "tail" of the other with its arrowhead. It kinda symbolizes trade. I dunno. Anyway, the file is Civilization III\Art\Cities\AirAndHarb.pcx. Anyone wanting to take a crack at it is welcome.
Lemme warn you, the icons' outlines are not completely symmetrical, that can make it look kinda weird when you try and make things right near the outline of the icon's diamond shape.

Maybe just make a dollar sign..?

You do not have water required checked for harbors, so maybe that would do something. Its worth a try ;p

It might be a good idea to require water for the Trading Company itself, as it would only really be useful to a seafaring civ. I mean, lets be honest. Itd be kinda pointless if Russia built the Trading Company ;p

hmm, not necesarily... I assume this will make it so that all the cities are linked via a trading network without roads, right...? Although I'm confused... The computer calculates trade networks over the ocean for harbors and checks to see if trade pathways are open (ie enemy vessels blocking trade lanes). Will this still function with this alteration? What will block the land-based trade-routes?

This is an interesting concept, just ocnfused about how it will actually work in game.

Rome cannot upgrade any unit to legions in the latest expansion patch. This is a major problem. Now the Romans will have to build a 50 shield unit from scratch in order to mount any kind of ancient era offensive. Not only is this a huge pain for human players, but how will the AI manage to build any kind of force up when it is already preoccupied with building high cost settlers?

As it stands, Rome has become hamstrung with zero possibility of building any kind of decent ancient age empire. Please consider re-adding warriors to the legionary upgrade line. Taking away the extra hit point has fixed the issue with legions being too powerful that we saw in 0.11

Rome cannot upgrade any unit to legions in the latest expansion patch. This is a major problem.

Don't worry, I know and I'll do that. I just want to put in the Roman warrior later, when I'll add the flavour units, to keep them all together.

Looking through the biq... You gave Cathedral 2 maintainance and Mosque, Synagogue, and Monastery 0 maintainance. Is this on purpouse?

No.


Also I see there is not yet the Sacrificial Altar imp... Why?

No sacrificial altar improvement.
Sacrifices are allowed by the discover of Judaism, Pagan Cults and Meso techs.
The ability of doubling sacrifice points is given to some wonders (Baal's altar and Temple of the Sun)


Oh, and as I said a Myhtology is not a kind of religion, it's a set of stories. Rename the "Mythology" religions Polytheism (Greek Polytheism, etc.)


The tech they have from the beginning is polytheism. The tech they can discover after mysticism is the mythology. Isn't it good this way?

FWIW:
The "Ark of the Covenant" is pretty important in Jewish history. A small or great wonder?

The old testament tells of the constant battle for the hearts of the Jewish people between Yahweh and the Israelites' desire to incorporate aspects of the pagan religions of their neighbours. Perhaps make them pagan/judaism with a tweak to avoid them making any pagan imp./wonders (ie. basically to help the tech tree issue and possibly for historical/religious accuracy)?

The Reformation is pretty important in Christian history (the protestant ref. encouraged a less dramatic catholic ref. iirc). Worth a wonder or something?

Just my 2 cents worth :)

Sent the 0.34, with 2 new WWI units, a revised tech tree, the religions and the new wonders and many other fixes.
Wonders pictures and civilopedia entries aren't included, so you'll have to look inside the editor to see the effect.
Please test the Trading Company: the "allow water trade" ability generates the harbour symbol in each city (including the landlocked cities).

In several mod attempts I have made, as well as in the RAR mod, various wonders etc granting a harbor to every city, had the effect of crashing the game when harbors suddenly appeared in landlocked cities. I am unsure if you meant only the symbol or the actual harbor, but if the actual harbor, I can save you some time by telling you it WILL crash the game as soon as the computer realizes it is in cities not on the water.

Sacrifices are allowed by the discover of Judaism, Pagan Cults and Meso techs.
The ability of doubling sacrifice points is given to some wonders (Baal's altar and Temple of the Sun)
Judaism? The first lesson in Judaism was the repudiation of human sacrifice.

Judaism? The first lesson in Judaism was the repudiation of human sacrifice.

Ask Blasphemous. He said that there were sacrifices in Ancient Israel.

The Reformation is pretty important in Christian history (the protestant ref. encouraged a less dramatic catholic ref. iirc). Worth a wonder or something?


Thanks. It's surely worth a wonder, but I'm forced not to include it because of the way religions work.

In several mod attempts I have made, as well as in the RAR mod, various wonders etc granting a harbor to every city, had the effect of crashing the game when harbors suddenly appeared in landlocked cities. I am unsure if you meant only the symbol or the actual harbor, but if the actual harbor, I can save you some time by telling you it WILL crash the game as soon as the computer realizes it is in cities not on the water.

I tried myself and it didn't crash. But an harbour appeared in every city.
Then I tried to make T.C. put another improvement in every city (Trading Post) which is not coastal but only allows water trade.
The result works, but the harbour symbol pops up everywhere anyway. It seems linked with that flag.

Judaism? The first lesson in Judaism was the repudiation of human sacrifice.

But maybe you're right.

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Human%20sacrifice

Here it says of Pagan, Norse, Celtic, Mesos and Chinese. No Jews.
Not sure to what religion Chinese sacrifice is linked.

1) No sacrificial altar improvement.
Sacrifices are allowed by the discover of Judaism, Pagan Cults and Meso techs.
The ability of doubling sacrifice points is given to some wonders (Baal's altar and Temple of the Sun)

2) The tech they have from the beginning is polytheism. The tech they can discover after mysticism is the mythology. Isn't it good this way?
1. Fine, just thought it would be more appropriate for some religions to have altars instead of temples. And Judaism has never had human sacrifice, the ritual sacrifice in ancient times was of animals that were ritually cooked and eventually eaten by the holymen that ran the sacrifice.
2. I think it would be better for the tech to be the different polytheisms... Think of it as branching out of Polytheism from a general vagueness to culture-specific sets of gods and beliefs.

FWIW:
3) The "Ark of the Covenant" is pretty important in Jewish history. A small or great wonder?

4) The old testament tells of the constant battle for the hearts of the Jewish people between Yahweh and the Israelites' desire to incorporate aspects of the pagan religions of their neighbours. Perhaps make them pagan/judaism with a tweak to avoid them making any pagan imp./wonders (ie. basically to help the tech tree issue and possibly for historical/religious accuracy)?
3. The Ark of the Covenant is not exactly appropriate as a wrold wonder, seeing as it was a mobile thing that was lost forever a couple thousand years ago... And there's no need for another Jewish wonder.
4) As a nation the Hebrews were never mostly pagan once Judaism came in... And anyway, the religions in the game come in at two slots, and Paganism and Judaism are in the same one so it won't help with the problem of the Hebrews only having one religion (which was already solved, by having Jewish Theology in the second slot.)

Pretty fricken complicated dudes. I say take out the harbor from trading company, and make it give a courthouse type corruption reducer in every city.

call it Customs House, and make it available ONLY with the wonder.

Although, with an advantage that immense, it might be a better idea to reduce trading company to small wonder status, and make it dependent on an invisible resource in/near the capital of civs that had colonial empires (russia, france, england, netherlands, portugal, germany to an extent, spain, china maybe, japan maybe, usa maybe).

That way they can build colonies without having them be megasucky.

I still think the best solution to the problem of hyper expensive settlers is making the palace produce them at 20 turn intervals, but that would create plenty of problems on its own.

2. I think it would be better for the tech to be the different polytheisms... Think of it as branching out of Polytheism from a general vagueness to culture-specific sets of gods and beliefs.


If you see in the civilopedia or in the editor you'll find for example "greek polytheism" hidden, that allows "greek mythology" after mysticism. However I could rename both as "greek polytheism".

Any feedback on the 0.34?

If you see in the civilopedia or in the editor you'll find for example "greek polytheism" hidden, that allows "greek mythology" after mysticism. However I could rename both as "greek polytheism".
That would be good.
Won't be able to start playtesting before thursday.

I am playing a game in between typing and being violently sick. I have to produce a five page paper for tomorrow (wrote a four pager yesterday) and am not feeling well at all.

which begs the question... why the hell am i playing civ?

because ;p

playing as britain, just started, its pretty quiet. Should I play as America instead? I was looking for a quiet peaceful game this time (I even turned on Diplomatic victory, first time in forever I have allowed a non-military victory ;p).

Might be a bit slow, but whatever

Pretty fricken complicated dudes. I say take out the harbor from trading company, and make it give a courthouse type corruption reducer in every city.
This is a good idea.

I have a fairly interesting save for you. Some unusual stuff is going on. I'm not sure whether this game is an exception, or whether the AI civs just like to conquer each other more in the XP.


France eliminated the Dutch, and Portugal took a Roman city!

Also, the Greeks are building a road on my horses, which I don't understand.

WARNING: If you aren't an XP tester, this save isn't meant for you. It will crash your computer.

(Reformation...)Thanks. It's surely worth a wonder, but I'm forced not to include it because of the way religions work.
Why?
Reformation had a much bigger impact on Germany than for example Enlightenment or any famous Cathedral (not to speak of resulting political changes). As a civ wonder, it should not only make people happy, but also provide a significant scientifc boost - Martin Luther was the first one to translate the Bible into German, while Catholics continued to say their Masses in Latin.
On the other hand, it might become a new tech allowing you to build cheap cathedrals or cheap universities or early hospitals.

Oh, and of course there aren't human sacrifices in Judaism. Actually Judaism should get a moral bonus in the ancient age for being the very first religion to ban human sacrifices.

Now to something strange I experienced in a 2.62 game (Spain, Emporer):
While France had been my main trading partner and certainly the second most powerful civ, Israel managed to keep up with technology although they only had THREE cities. In fact they obviously had a research rate of five turns in the Industrial era, being way ahead of every neighbor, and even ahead of the othe big civs France, England and Greece. What makes it even more strange, after the discovery of Electricity they still lacked communications with about half the world!

Why?


Because there's one place for the religious tech, shared by the religions. For example any Muslim civ (Arabs, Ottomans,...) will have another tech in that place: Islam.
If I add another Christian tech in late Middle Ages, then I'd be forced to add another late Middle Ages Muslim tech, Buddhist tech and Jewish tech.
And each one of that techs should allow something. I'd be forced to think of something to add.

And this would be even more unfair if you consider that ancient religions allow only 1 tech.



Now to something strange I experienced in a 2.62 game (Spain, Emporer):
While France had been my main trading partner and certainly the second most powerful civ, Israel managed to keep up with technology although they only had THREE cities. In fact they obviously had a research rate of five turns in the Industrial era, being way ahead of every neighbor, and even ahead of the othe big civs France, England and Greece. What makes it even more strange, after the discovery of Electricity they still lacked communications with about half the world!


I wouldn't know....maybe they had some wonders, or much money. However one of the goals that I was trying to reach with my basic mod was breaking the connection largest->most advanced that exists in civ3.
In real life there's lot of corruption and waste in large empires, while small countries (Holland, Switzerland for example) are good at commerce and ahead in the tech race.

1. Fine, just thought it would be more appropriate for some religions to have altars instead of temples. And Judaism has never had human sacrifice, the ritual sacrifice in ancient times was of animals that were ritually cooked and eventually eaten by the holymen that ran the sacrifice.

My Jewish grandfather always told me that human sacrifice was practiced by some of the kingdoms of Israel BC, and that human sacrifice is not forbidden by the Talmud. I tried to do some research on this but just kept stumbling across right wing propaganda

EDIT: I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to be controversial in any way here - just suggesting it may not be too strange, in the context of the game, to allow the hebrews to carryout human sacrifice.

My Jewish grandfather always told me that human sacrifice was practiced by some of the kingdoms of Israel BC, and that human sacrifice is not forbidden by the Talmud. I tried to do some research on this but just kept stumbling across right wing propaganda

EDIT: I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to be controversial in any way here - just suggesting it may not be too strange, in the context of the game, to allow the hebrews to carryout human sacrifice.
No idea where you grandfather got this idea... Human sacrifice is strictly non-Jewish. Judaism rose in its creation against the region's paganism and multiple gods and worship of statues and inanimate objects (and iirc, its ritual human sacrifice). Once the religion was fully formed I highly doubt there was any ritual human sacrifice carried out normally.

Originally Posted by Aeon221
Pretty fricken complicated dudes. I say take out the harbor from trading company, and make it give a courthouse type corruption reducer in every city. .


I'm working on different possibilities. The basic thing I want is not to see again colonies with spearmen in 1800 only because the harbor hasn't been built.
Today I tried to enable a bit more sea and air trades, but the result was a huge change in game mechanisms.
If I don't reach anything good, I'll switch back to the original wonder (pays improv. cost)
If you have other suggestions, tell me.

BTW,
now sacrifices are enabled only for Pagan, Mesos and Nordic.
Each tech allows sacrifices, and each religion of these 3 allow a wonder that puts a sacrificial altar in every city. It doubles the sacrifice points.

Sounds good.

Re: CivX .34

Republic Gov is available with Philosophy(? I think) and there is a missing splash screen entry for Moai statues in civpedia.txt which causes a CTD.

edit: also Hagia Sophia has no cost or effect.

BUG CONFIRM: Yes i noticed the same thing abt republic and philosophy. really weird.

RE: Israeli human sacrifices

no. not at all. go read the story about abraham and isaac. its pretty clear that they didnt do that at all.

IDEA: if you were to make it so that some units enslaved and it created an animal, or a triumph or something, and you could take it back to your cities and sacrifice or celebrate it for culture, that would be pretty cool. in fact, you should make it so land based UUs can enslave something called a triumph, or major victory or something, which can be "sacrificed" for culture. every time a major victory occurs, there is always partying in the real world, so why not represent it here.

of course, this could all be just a really stupid idea, but the health center has me on so much medication im surprised i can type.

BUG: also, civilopedia seems to have to entries for spearmen, one the usu 1.2.1 and one the new 2.2.1

this seems like an issue.

No idea where you grandfather got this idea... Human sacrifice is strictly non-Jewish. Judaism rose in its creation against the region's paganism and multiple gods and worship of statues and inanimate objects (and iirc, its ritual human sacrifice). Once the religion was fully formed I highly doubt there was any ritual human sacrifice carried out normally.

He's dead now so alas I can't ask him, which is a pity as he was an archaeologist in the middle-east. I think the sacrifice he referred to was not strictly sanctioned as part of judaism, but was practiced occasionally - in times of crisis, by some misguided ancient hebrews.

The encyclopeadia brittanica says

"Hebrews: This member of the Semitic family was no less prone than the rest to human sacrifices...."

and the Harper's Bible Dictionary says

"Human sacrifice was exceptional among the ancient Hebrews, although we still read, 'The firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me' (Ex. 22:29, cb. 13:2). The Israelites very early substituted, like Abraham (Gen. 22:13), an animal sacrifice to 'redeem' the first born (Exod. 13:13-15, 34:20; Numb. 18-15). Nevertheless, in a desperate crisis, the first-born was sacrificed as the supreme gift to the deity... The immolation of Jephthah's daughter (Judg 11:30-40) is the result of a vow made to the deity to obtain victory. Prisoners of war were occasionally sacrificed either for blood revenge (Judge 8:18-21) or as part of the ban (1Sam 15:33). Both these barbaric ancient rites were regarded as sacrifices to the deity ...."

But I suppose as Judaism always officially stood against such practices it makes sense to leave things as Rhye has now set them.

Human sacrifice should also be enabled for Hinduism as they practiced it right through to the days of the British Raj, whilst it was very limited in nature a group called the Thuggies (from where we derive the word thug) who were devotees of Khali were known to kidnap and sacrifice travellers.

IDEA: if you were to make it so that some units enslaved and it created an animal, or a triumph or something, and you could take it back to your cities and sacrifice or celebrate it for culture,

This seems like a good idea, and makes it available to everyone - it could be called spoils of war or some such

Thanks, I just corrected the things you mentioned. In addition to this, current version (0.37) contains some wonders refinement, some new wonder (and some wonders deleted), and Silver bonus resource.

The main problem for now remains the Trading Company.

Bug: The French start with Nordic Mythologies tech, which allows them to start on the Wonders allowed by it before everyone else. It looks unintentional, because they don't even have the prerequisite.

BTW, should England maybe have the Nordic mythology set instead of the regular Pagan? Then they could build Stonehenge, which would be accurate, and it also would reflect the Scandinavian influence on England. (The first major known piece of English Literature is Beowulf, a story about Danes and Swedes.) England was Nordic/Celtic culture until 1066, when the Normans invaded and brought a more West European culture in.

Didn't I set English as nordic? damn...
Thanks.

IDEA: if you were to make it so that some units enslaved and it created an animal, or a triumph or something, and you could take it back to your cities and sacrifice or celebrate it for culture, that would be pretty cool. in fact, you should make it so land based UUs can enslave something called a triumph, or major victory or something, which can be "sacrificed" for culture. every time a major victory occurs, there is always partying in the real world, so why not represent it here.I really like this idea. I like it enough to advocate the abandonment of the current sacrifice system.

I wonder if you can change the percent chance of an enslave. If so, then allowing these "Triumphs" to be sacrificied in a Palace city would be extremely awesome.

Well, Im glad the children of my stupor were well recieved ;p

Also, noticed that according to the civilopedia the powerful Man-o-War seems to upgrade into the fearsome...Transport...? Is this an error, or are you simply trying to confuse the crap out of me! ;p

I, for one, am unwilling to upgrade my powerful seaborne UU into something so... plebian.

I like that the Galeass is stronger in combat than the Caravel, but slightly slower. Does the Man-O-War no longer replace the Frigate for the British?

I am getting close to being able to build them, so its a critical question ;p

K i noticed it replaces the Galleon, which is AMAZING since it has high bombard, transports 4, and goes fast! Holy cow did you make it worth having ;p

Sadly, it upgrades into something weaker, lacks bombard, goes only a little faster (3 pts) and is weaker in attack and defense. MoW needs to either be moved or have its stats changed (or to simply be unable to upgrade; might be the best solution utc!)

The new Arab UU comes available before other crossbow/longbow units. Is this intentional?

I think the Transport should have better stats... It should be able to defend itself against wooden ships, even if modern transports don't actually carry heavy weaponry - they're usually escorted by combat-capable ships if I'm not mistaken... (Pretty freakin stupid of modern armies if I'm wrong...)
And I don't think every unit that's escorted in reality needs to require another unit's escort in the game... Sometimes the escort is so integral that it can be considered the same unit.

The new Arab UU comes available before other crossbow/longbow units. Is this intentional?

Yes. This time it's intentional.

Does the Man-O-War no longer replace the Frigate for the British?


Yes, if you remember there was a discussion about true nature of Man-o-war.

What you see is an experiment - I tried to make it similar to history. If it works I'll leave it that way.
The upgrade can be a problem.

EDIT: raised Transport stats to 2/4

I really like this idea. I like it enough to advocate the abandonment of the current sacrifice system.

I wonder if you can change the percent chance of an enslave. If so, then allowing these "Triumphs" to be sacrificied in a Palace city would be extremely awesome.

I haven't much freedom here. I can't change the percent chance.

Currently some UUs can enslave. Enslavement results in worker. Only pagan, nordic and mesos can sacrifice humans.

I haven't much freedom here. I can't change the percent chance.

Currently some UUs can enslave. Enslavement results in worker. Only pagan, nordic and mesos can sacrifice humans.
Errr... There's the Enslave Results In box in the editor unit editing page that lets you choose what you get when that unit enslaves an enemy unit. So some units can enslave victories instead of workers, but then you'd have to have victories as the only thing that gets sacrificed methinks. (Otherwise everybody could sacrifice Workers.)

Umm... Is Legionary supposed to have 0 worker strength even tho it has some worker abilities?

what does victories mean? During celebrations the victory usually consisted in enemy slaves

Umm... Is Legionary supposed to have 0 worker strength even tho it has some worker abilities?

This fix goes to the basic 2.63

Here is what I meant. You know how in Ancient Rome they would celebrate famous victories by having a massive procession with the spoils of war (treasure, captured enemies, slaves). What I was thinking is that UUs could enslave something, and we could call it a triumph, right? It would get taken back to the capital where it would be sacrificed (although this would have to be changed to celebrated) and would result in a jump in culture; a little bonus for the winner.

I mean, granted there were sacrifices of human beings in various religions, but this celebration goes back to something just as basic, and far more universal: the urge to celebrate a major victory over the enemy.

well, the idea is not bad. But you should apply this to every civ.
And you would cancel the strength that some UUs have (the enslavement-to-worker ability) and the strength that some civs have (some religions allow sacrifices)

Hey Rhye, do you know how I can use your world map from this mod with RAR?

There's already a user that has put RaR resources on my 180x180 map (a little bigger than the one in this mod).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100352

Ok, but will the game be the same as this mod? Exept that the map is a bit bigger? Will it load fast too?

He doesn't tell us how to use it with RAR...it only has RAR resources in it. I don't know how to use the map with RAR though....

With regard to load times on the RaR version of Rhye's 180 map:

The bad news is that the map will be slightly larger, so that means slower load times, and it will also lose many of the rule changes Rhye made to decrease load times.

The good news is that the RaR team made some similar rule changes (the computer can't build on desert, for example) which also decrease load times. So the load times will be faster than normal, but they are probably not as fast as the loading times in RoC.

Yes. My 180x180 has a good landmass ratio, it is a good all-purpose map. But even with some rule changes RaR can't match RoC speed.

It is curious the fact that 2 years ago I had a chat with Kal-el, and he was very convinced that AI should have absolutely no limitations.
He said, if you want to found a city in Tundra, do it. It will eventually not flourish.
He probably changed his mind later, or most likely the change is due to the passage in Isak's hands.

Hmmm... If we have the Triumph thingy, some units should still capture workers (which would not be sacrificable) which would still be a bonus since after all, a free worker with no upkeep is a bigger bonus than a few culture points...
Naval units should spawn Maritime Triumphs or something... Would give coastal cities a nice little bonus.

I like this triumph idea. Sounds a bit like the Conquests Age of Discovery scenario with Treasure units. It would be nice if you could capture Triumph units as well. The only trouble is would the AI know what to do with them?

Re RoCX .34: If you are lucky enough to get both the Great Lighthouse and Magellans Voyage before the first one expires then you get a double bonus. I have had caravals zooming around the world with 10 move points :D it's great, I'd recommend it to everyone ;)

Seriously though the increased movement of ocean going vesels makes much more sense. Ever thought about upping them a bit? After all, each turn is years.

Edit: Spotted another problem. The Guerilla.ini file is missing from the art folder.

I keep forgetting to post this idea, so now I remembered and you shall all listen... And tremble! (If you're like, really cold.)
Shouldn't Modern Armor (and possibly Mech Inf) ignore Desert movement cost? I mean, several modern wars (including tank wars) were fought in the desert and it never seemed to take them five years to cross a country...
It should prolly only be given to MA so that is the best unit for attacking with...

EDIT: Oh, and even if not to all MA then to the Merkava... The thing was freakin designed for desert combat.

I keep forgetting to post this idea, so now I remembered and you shall all listen... And tremble! (If you're like, really cold.)
Shouldn't Modern Armor (and possibly Mech Inf) ignore Desert movement cost? I mean, several modern wars (including tank wars) were fought in the desert and it never seemed to take them five years to cross a country...
It should prolly only be given to MA so that is the best unit for attacking with...

EDIT: Oh, and even if not to all MA then to the Merkava... The thing was freakin designed for desert combat.

Love the idea... up to your edit ;) The Merkava is probably one of the best defensive MBT's in the world. Unfortunately it is also one of the slowest and heaviest. So this is probably the only tank fast desert movement shouldn't apply to! ;)

Yeah I had an idea about ship movement, and it worked so Im gonna share it now. Apparently, you can set tiles to have zero movement, making them work like RRs. You can also set units to IGNORE MOVEMENT COST on them, making it once again cost 1 move per usage.

So Imperial era ships (like Galleons and Frigaes) onward could be able to rapidly move across the world (say five turns, b/c of the pacific islands, rather than forty plus for a circumnavigation), but if the sea tiles are kept a decent distance from land (or the moves on ships are reduced a bit) it will not cause the problem of instant sea invasions from across the world (although it will reduce move time for these invasions to a two or three turn time).

I basically see the sea lanes as being about where the Atlantic rift is, with another one going along the pacific and basically keeping like the trade winds.

The best part is that you could use LM terrain for it if you chose, so that you could still have regular sea tiles to go with the RR sea tiles.

That way England colonizing India and Australia is far more likely, colonies can be reinforced without twenty turn waits, and the sea lanes which make all this possible would become vitally important. Best of all, since the ignore movement cost flag would be on for galleys and such, they would still be stuck in the area of the world they started in!

Since the ocean tiles can now fill the role that the Bering Strait LM terrain was filling, it seems logical to use that LM Sea tile to make ships that much faster, without having them go to RIDICULOUS speed while cruising off a coast!

How about that for an idea?

Rhye, if you do not want to test it as such, I will check it out in 2.62 and see how it works; I still think that this is a good idea that is well worth checking out!

Love the idea... up to your edit ;) The Merkava is probably one of the best defensive MBT's in the world. Unfortunately it is also one of the slowest and heaviest. So this is probably the only tank fast desert movement shouldn't apply to! ;)
Bleh, you sure about that? I knew that baseless claim (or rather, guess) would come back to hit me in the face... If so, you can make the Merkava not have the desert movement ignoring thing, but because it's for Israel which will be fighting desert wars (unless it gets those out of the way earlier) they should get a bigger stats boost to compensate... Perhaps just better defense than it has now.
But are you sure it's *that* slow? We're talking two thirds of the speed of other tanks in the desert if Merkava doesn't ignore desert movement.

Aeon: That idea sounds awesome, definately should be checked out!

Bleh, you sure about that? I knew that baseless claim (or rather, guess) would come back to hit me in the face... If so, you can make the Merkava not have the desert movement ignoring thing, but because it's for Israel which will be fighting desert wars (unless it gets those out of the way earlier) they should get a bigger stats boost to compensate... Perhaps just better defense than it has now.
But are you sure it's *that* slow? We're talking two thirds of the speed of other tanks in the desert if Merkava doesn't ignore desert movement.

Aeon: That idea sounds awesome, definately should be checked out!

Hi, hi... I was just being pedantic! It is slower (up to 20 kmh on roads) compared with Leopards and Abrams but for game purposes I supose it can easily be ignored if only because the IDF armoured force is easily the best tank force in the world.

Re Aeon's idea: I'll second that motion! Great ideas. :goodjob:

Blasphemous -> OK for both Merkava and MA

Aeon -> would you make 0 movement only LM sea, or ocean and LM sea, or ocean and sea?

Edit: Spotted another problem. The Guerilla.ini file is missing from the art folder.


Guerrilla.ini?
It isn't in RoC folders. Is your PTW installed correctly?

Guerrilla.ini?
It isn't in RoC folders. Is your PTW installed correctly?

Yup, I think so. It worked last time I tried anyway. All the folders are in the right place so I don't think it's down to my install.

Bleh, you sure about that? I knew that baseless claim (or rather, guess) would come back to hit me in the face... If so, you can make the Merkava not have the desert movement ignoring thing, but because it's for Israel which will be fighting desert wars (unless it gets those out of the way earlier) they should get a bigger stats boost to compensate... Perhaps just better defense than it has now.
But are you sure it's *that* slow? We're talking two thirds of the speed of other tanks in the desert if Merkava doesn't ignore desert movement.

Aeon: That idea sounds awesome, definately should be checked out!

The deserts of the world are pretty much the perfect zones for modern armor and armored cavalry. The Merkava is much slower than many tanks however.
Tank desert warfare though is not a measure of speed as much as mobility. The reason the desert is nearly the perfect environment is not because of a straight speed issue, it is because there is no terrain enforced channels of movement, a modern force(with gps at least) can move to attack from any direction over the desert.
To be truly realistic, by the modern ages, turns should be down to a much shorter time frame(weeks even) as the time a modern army takes to move across even a whole continent unopposed is far under a month even.
The sea lane idea(Aeon's?) BTW is quite realistic, and an excellent idea. Most naval wars which were not fought with the intent of landing ground troops, are fought for protection of the sealanes..this would make many historical realities more likely...U-Boat campaigns in the Atlantic to interfere with movement of troops, etc, the possibilities are endless, and as a naval officer myself, this would make the game much more interesting from my viewpoint as well:)

Maybe teh naval movement idea can be applied to land as well for terrain types that take no time at all to traverse nowadays?
No gonna try and think this through at the moment, must... sleep!

I like the idea of sealanes, but they should be small and rather sparse; maybe only a couple tiles a stretch, not a free ride the whole way there. Beyond that, though, it would certainly add alot of realism to sea travel.

Land lanes should be avoided. S'what roads and railroads are for. A modern army could still go through continents in no time in RoC anyways, you've just gotta line up your ROPs.

Also, while we're on the idea of sea units, I propose a new wonder: the Arsenal. Historically, the Arsenal was a huge organization in Venice that employed nearly 10% of the city's population and could build a warship a day. In game, it would be available whenever Galleass's are and would build a Galleass every six-ish turns.

what if I simply boost middle ages and modern ships movement? Sealanes doesn't look too realistic...

what if I simply boost middle ages and modern ships movement? Sealanes doesn't look too realistic...
Actually, for various reasons, the routes ships take, and have taken, in their journeys, and still today, would resemble roads. Ships do not simply wander the seas, there are indeed some areas where still today few ships traverse. In days of sail, sealanes were for various reasons of currents, favorable winds, etc, today for more complex reasons, but , as long as they dont appear( I believe the original idea was to have them basically invisible) they are QUITE realistic.

I just had an idea to put an end to the rushes.

No automatic additional starting units for the AI (which are 2 of best def. unit available = 2 warriors).
Instead 2 starting defensive (1/2/1) units from the players properties tab. They could be archers, but it would be a bit odd, having archers and not warrior code. So, they could even be a kind of guardsmen, not buildable, with a different animation.

what do you think?

I like the idea of a starting guardsman unit to prevent rushes. You could have a long term upgrade tree with it (free upgrades of course) to keep it relevant throughout the game.

Now I will explain my idea. I would say that LM terrain would be the best approach, as you could still retain the normal sea squares everywhere else with their normal one movement cost (it has to be one, because the newer ships will not ignore their cost, because if they did they would not be able to use the lanes). The sea lanes would replace the Atlantic wall (if you look in the editor, it is the long line of sea squares down the Atlantic.

A new line would have to be put through the Indian Ocean, and would end in Micronesia. A line would also have to be put going toward the bottom tip of South America, leading up to the Hawaiian islands (which have been a crucial stop for ships since coal crossings of the pacific started). This line would terminate near Japan and China.

Another line would have to be extended to the... Persian Gulf (I think, not 100%)... basically the body of water which would be connected to the Suez canal. That water should also probably be Sea Lane water as well, and there should be some sea lane water near the Panama Canal as well... although these areas will not be NEARLY as crucial if this change is made *they should speed you up a bit, as it will not be possible to connect those lanes under the Horn of Africa and the Southern end of South America*. Which makes sense, considering the storms those areas suffer.

The Atlantic line would need to be totally connected, as it currently has ocean gaps, and a Transverse line may need to be added to allow easy movement from Europe to America and VV.

There are several important reasons for this change:

1) I am tired of spending a century doing as England what Russia was able to do in the real world in under a year in the Russo-Japanese war; send ships from Northern Europe to the Tsushima Straights for a war! Although, unlike Russia, I do not intend to lose.

2) In a game where it is possible to railroad from Lisbon to Peking an infinite number of times in a single turn, it should not take an entire game to do the same thing with a boat.

3) COLONIAL WARFARE
It is simply impossible for the Euros to settle the Indies before the Middle Easterners and the Easterners do it. While they would get the same advantages (although I think they should get them a bit later, simply to allow the Euros to do their colonial thing), the Europeans would be more likely to capitalize on them. Besides, it makes it possible to invade those areas with the (most likely) superior tech of the european superpower without having it take so long that the units are outdated before they arrive.

4) Naval Combat:
People would be forced to keep an eye on those lanes. Think how vicious the computer will be with them; China could declare war on you and ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING to you, even if you ARE in Europe. And, even cooler, VV. How cool would it be to see China fighting a war against Europe to preserve its independence, and seeing the troops from Europe not trekking across the vast Russian steppes, but sailing there on nice new boats!

5) Because I'm Rick James, biatch! ;p

6) Boosting the movements of ships will cause you to have severe problems with long range invasions from hell that can transport units multiple times. The beauty of this solution is that you will not have to increase movement; you may even have to reduce it for late middle and onward to compensate for their massive sea lane advantage!

7) The computer will actually use this! They cannot help it, as they compute based on minimum move cost, and sea lanes would certainly equal the absolute minimum... so you could stick ships near there with reasonable certainty that the enemy WILL actually show up around there... as opposed to simply setting up destroyers all around your coast.

If you bothered to read this, you have as little to do as I do... which is probably why you are on this site in the first place ;p

I think, repeat THINK, that this change would be a very useful one, in that it will reduce transit times for boats in an accurate fashion, without requiring inordinately large numbers of movement points for each boat, and the subsequent rebalancing that this would entail, as there would be no way to intercept them before they reached a coast.

Rhye, if you want me to clarify something in specific, just ask; I am simply making as strong (if wordy and somewhat incoherent) case for my idea.

LONG LIVE THE SEALANES! ;p

Thumbs up to Aeon.


However, I'm against adding too many irrelevant units. Just give the civs an archer to start and leave it at that.

Yo, what's up with all the Europeon counties building where Russia is suppose to be? Is there a way to stop this?

I have to try. It really depends on the areas you want to use. On the same time I don't want to ruin the map with lines everywhere. I'll try.

And, which are the ships that would be allowed to move through the lines?

However, I'm against adding too many irrelevant units. Just give the civs an archer to start and leave it at that.

That fact is that I already foresee some people complainting that "a civ hasn't got Warrior Code to trade, but they have archers".

What do you think of a guard/guardsman/any other name 1/1/2 upgrading to spearman, not buildable.
I think that it could even be a worth addition to the basic mod, because it solves the problem you just showed me in your last savegame!

3) COLONIAL WARFARE
It is simply impossible for the Euros to settle the Indies before the Middle Easterners and the Easterners do it.


What Indies are you talking about? East Indies?

Anyway the problem should be solved together with the Trading Company thing. I hate Euro civs building spearmen in colonies.

Yo, what's up with all the Europeon counties building where Russia is suppose to be? Is there a way to stop this?

No there isn't.
The only thing that can slow down is the strong barbarian presence.

Just had another idea to fix the Trading Company problem:

1) Add the "docks" improvement, little cost, no upkeep, allows water trade.
2) Remove water trade from harbor; harbor requires docks.

3) Split the wonder into West India Trading Company and East India Trading Company.
They both have the same effect as forbidden palace, but require different resources: tobacco + an European only resource (west), spices or silks + an European only resource (east). Something European is necessary to avoid it being built by natives (see Slave Trade)

Just had another idea to fix the Trading Company problem:

1) Add the "docks" improvement, little cost, no upkeep, allows water trade.
2) Remove water trade from harbor; harbor requires docks.

3) Split the wonder into West India Trading Company and East India Trading Company.
They both have the same effect as forbidden palace, but require different resources: tobacco + an European only resource (west), spices or silks + an European only resource (east). Something European is necessary to avoid it being built by natives (see Slave Trade)

Rhye, I wouldn't want you to copy another mod, but there IS a good idea I saw in the old DYP. They had a tech(non researchable,given already at beginning) called"Being ...." Such as "Being English" or "Being Egyptian" etc for each civ, which then was a prerequisite for one specific "chain"only they could make. You could probably do something like this easier than adding one special resource etc to control who can build something. In this way you could limit colonization, at least on a large scale, to those countries which really did colonize, namely European...what with their crowded continent it's a needed deal anyway.

Yes, its always important to limit those unsightly lines ;p

However, it is quite clear that there is very little you would need to add, and only a little you would need to change for a massive improvement in naval performance.

As to which ships, Galleon and Frigate level onward, POSSIBLY with the Portugese special ships getting it too (probably a good idea, since they were really booking it early on ;p)

I like the idea of the Guardsmen (how about Militia?) units being upgradeable to some other normal unit, but why not pikemen or crossbowmen, rather than something only slightly stronger.

I think Rhye already has done something like this with the resources, but on a larger scale: Americas with tobacco, Asia (China, Mongolia, Japan, India) with silks and spices, Europe with dyes or something I am sure, Middle East with incense.

The point is, this mod is not so different between civs that it really requires each of them to have a different resource. The current system is performing perfectly in that respect, at least in my opinion.

I am against a specifc civ being given a specific wonder simply because they built it in real life. Jeeping it in the right area, as Rhye did, is a splendid idea!

I know thats not exactly what you meant, but I think I am close.

Jeez, this is like framing a bloody constitution ;p

AND I ALSO THINK SEA LANES SHOULD BE ADDED! ;p

When would harbor become available? It could not be at the same time as docks!

Well, there is that one idea I had about deserts and closing the Urals which would stop the wrong people settling Russia... ;p

Yes, its always important to limit those unsightly lines ;p

However, it is quite clear that there is very little you would need to add, and only a little you would need to change for a massive improvement in naval performance.

As to which ships, Galleon and Frigate level onward, POSSIBLY with the Portugese special ships getting it too (probably a good idea, since they were really booking it early on ;p)

I like the idea of the Guardsmen (how about Militia?) units being upgradeable to some other normal unit, but why not pikemen or crossbowmen, rather than something only slightly stronger.

I think Rhye already has done something like this with the resources, but on a larger scale: Americas with tobacco, Asia (China, Mongolia, Japan, India) with silks and spices, Europe with dyes or something I am sure, Middle East with incense.

The point is, this mod is not so different between civs that it really requires each of them to have a different resource. The current system is performing perfectly in that respect, at least in my opinion.

I am against a specifc civ being given a specific wonder simply because they built it in real life. Jeeping it in the right area, as Rhye did, is a splendid idea!

I know thats not exactly what you meant, but I think I am close.

Jeez, this is like framing a bloody constitution ;p

AND I ALSO THINK SEA LANES SHOULD BE ADDED! ;p

Yes you are correct. I do not see a problem currently. Just was trying to save even more work. I had not realized there were yet civ-specific resources, and assumed he would have to add them to accomplish what he said.
I do not understand the lines. As far as appearance, it should look the same. Terrain can loook the same despite being different. Also, I am against a specific civ being GIVEN a specific wonder as well. I do think it does a good job however to help AI controlled civs , which, generally are not very bright, a chance to actually develop a "Roman Empire" or many other things that on it's own, the AI just won't do. For that matter, you could make, say" Being Roman" as an example, be a prerequisite to a tech that allows you to see a resource that the AI would be willing to fight a war for, thus turning into a trigger, etc.
Anyhow, the great thing about this game is, the possibilities really are endless.
A quick off the subject question, as I do not have civ2...there is talk of a civ4, if made, would this and other mods be transferrable? Or would it require everything new? Just wondering.

A quick off the subject question, as I do not have civ2...there is talk of a civ4, if made, would this and other mods be transferrable? Or would it require everything new? Just wondering.


No, absolutely not.

I am against a specifc civ being given a specific wonder simply because they built it in real life. Jeeping it in the right area, as Rhye did, is a splendid idea!


With religions, some civs will be the only possible owner of some wonders. For the simple reason that for example nobody but Egyptians used to develop Egyptian polytheism

I have just tested the new starting units.

I succeeded in a rush with 8 warriors versus 2 guardsmen (1/2/1) and one warrior just built.
I tried then to add 1 hp to them, and I lost.
So what's the best name? Militia?

When would harbor become available? It could not be at the same time as docks!

Dock requires pottery; harbor requires sailing and a dock.


Dyes aren't only europeans. The only Euro-only resource seems to be wines. But that would exclude England above all.

So this is my decision:

the wonder is called India Trading Company.
It requires spices (in its radius? yet to decide. I'd like to hear your opinion) and 5 docks. It will act as a forbidden palace.

BTW, the name forbidden palace seems too China-specific. Why don't we call it simply summer palace or somthing like that. Many monarchs have a summer palace.

I like the dock-harbor idea.
Just make sure to lower harbor price so it's worth building for the food bonus (especially since I'm guessing it will have maintainance.)

Dyes aren't only europeans. The only Euro-only resource seems to be wines. But that would exclude England above all.



I always add win