Thanks for the zipped guides, I guess others will download it, too! :)

And yes, waiting for the today's patch! Though right now I am at workplace, things to get "started" only at late afternoon...

Uploading now.

I've called it 1.1, because there are lots of changes, and it deserves that title.

- England now Exp/Sea; Rome now Mil/Ind
- Expansionist civs now can build cheaper medieval and modern settlers
- Balloons now cannot be loaded
- Fixed USMC abilities
- Galleys and Dromons now can carry 1 unit
- Fixed Axeman orders
- Axeman, Oromo Horseman, Zeppelin, Bomber, Frigate, Destroyer, Dreadnought and Carrier now can upgrade
- Fixed Urban Militia-Partisan-Shifta-Guerilla upgrade path
- Fixed double Portuguese rifleman
- Rifleman now has only the defensive role flag, and it is available to Ottomans, too.
- Urban Militia, Partisan and Guerilla don't require support, but suffer -2 hit points penalty. Shifta suffers only -1
- Urban Militia costs 50; Partisan and Shifta cost 75; Guerilla costs 100
- Frigate now has defense 4
- Gallivat now has attack 4, defense 3
- Fixed Ironclad-Dreadnought-Battleship upgrade path
- Reduced Ironclad, Carrier, Submarine, Destroyer, Battleship, AEGIS Cruiser, Nuclear Sub., Cruiser, Modern Destroyer and Modern Carrier cost
- Reduced all the nuclear weapons cost
- Crossbowmen can no longer be drafted
- Ansar Warrior now costs 80
- European Ironclad now rotates before attack
- Fixed Gallivat and War Chariot enslavement result
- Increased Cog ocean movement points
- Changed Gallivat movement points
- Changed USMC stats
- Monument now produces 3 culture per turn
- Fixed the Monastery: now produces 3 happy faces
- The Terracotta Army now have a frequency of 7 turns
- Magellan's Voyage now increases by up to 3 points naval movement
- Reduced Magellan's Voyage and The Statue of Liberty cost
- Democracy now required for era advancement
- Enlightenment no longer allows draft, MPP and embargoes
- Reduced Mesoamerican Cults cost
- Increased Chivalry, Education, Banking, Metallurgy, Firearms, Military Tradition, Flintlock and Naval Tactics cost
- Terrain domination victory condition reduced to 30%
- Tuned Chinese (+), Japanese (+), Iroquois (+), American (+), Roman (+), Greek (-), Arabian (-), Egyptian (-), Portuguese (+), Babylonian (-) and Viking (+) strength
- Flood plains tiles now crippled later (with Invention)
- Moved a goody hut in Eastern Europe location
- Removed one barbarian chariot
- Moved Mustangs' locations
- Fixed Civilopedia entries (Religious Traits, Draft, Mantenance, Fortress, Barricade, Iron Working, Construction, Trench Warfare, Scout, A-Bomb, Phoenician Bireme, Gallivat, Privateer, Shifta, The Slave Trade, The India Trading Company, The Statue of Liberty, Hanging Gardens, Art of War, The Great Wall, The Oracle, Forbidden Palace, Secret Police HQ, Mustangs)
- Bonus for seafaring civs is now mentioned
- Replaced "are building" with "are starting to work on" in the Cultural advisor report
- Fixed CW Elephant Archer, Slinger and CossackSpakh sounds
- Fixed Junk attack animation
- Fixed Tu-95 (heavy bomber) bombing animation
- New Terracotta Army wonder splash

i can hardly contain myself! :D :D :D

i'm just playing an egyptians game now, and got a scientific leader quite early (ancient age). i forget what wonder i rushed, but i got an early golden age out of it. later in the ancient age, i was at war, and had victories with both UU (axemen) but did not get a second golden age.

is there something in civ that does not allow two golden ages in the same age (eg ancient age), or is the axeman's golden age flag not properly set?

EDIT: just checked .BIQ and the golden age flag is set correctly for axeman... if civ restricts golden ages by age, this could be a serious drawback for a civ like, egypt with two ancient age UUs....

second edit: i see now you only get one golden age. why i never noticed this before i have no idea. apologies for stupid question :)

EW

The patch 1.1 is available.

Shall we start a succession game? :)

Please tell me the rules, I've never played it before!

@EW: You only get one Golden Age, no matter what. Sorry!

@Rhye: I guess I kind of was kidding... I did say "wouldn't be too horrible" ;p
...although now that I think back on it I must have been on drugs or something to say anything that dumb haha

Looks like everything! I liked the previous defense of the frigate, but I guess we do have to bow before the vagaries of AI stupidity... I swear, we should be able to b@tch slap some sense into those constructs! ;p

Umm... looks like it'll be a bit before the link does anything... stupid 3D downloads...

EW, a civ can only ever have one single GA.
Rhye, here is a good basic rundown of what an SG is.

Sorry Aeon, I just fixed the link. You only need to download the patch.

Haha ooooh well ;p I had 1.0 anyway I think ;p

If the frigates did not upgrade properly before (I have not used them that extensively to know) then maybe that is the reason for the AI still using them with transports.

just cross-posted an edit on my original question. thanks for the help on golden ages everyone - why i thought you could get two i have no idea. i've been playing for years and to think i never noticed before!

EW

The patch 1.1 is available.


got it! :dance: :dance: :D

so glad i stayed up - almost midnight here :p

so glad i stayed up - almost midnight here :p
Bloody 'ell! Where do you live?

Bloody 'ell! Where do you live?

New Zealand, I guess

:o

I forgot to update one of the two biqs with the decreased nuclear weapons cost. I just fixed it. It's a nuisance, but if you want to download the fixed version in any case, you can.

Rhye, can't you just attach the fixed biq to your post so people can get that if they want to?

I really would take part in a Succession Game of ROCX - well, who else would join?

Rhye, is this a correct statement on page 1 of the post?

You can download the whole pack (not updated: v1.01) in one zip:
http://www.3ddownloads.com/civfanat...ks/RoCX_v11.zip (82.83 MB)

And then update it with the lastest patch (v1.1, 0.5 MB)

Specifically, are "(not updated: v1.01)" and "And then update" correct? It appears that the download is already v1.1, i.e. *is* updated, and *doesn't* require the latest patch.

:o

I forgot to update one of the two biqs with the decreased nuclear weapons cost. I just fixed it. It's a nuisance, but if you want to download the fixed version in any case, you can.

Is is now fixed in all three versions (five-part, upgrade, one-part via 3ddownloads)?

A mispell. Sorry.
I can't update 3D downloads: it's 1.01. I don't know why Thunderfall wrote that's 1.1.

The update is the patch below.

Otherwise, the 5 parts are updated.


Is is now fixed in all three versions (five-part, upgrade, one-part via 3ddownloads)?

It is fixed now in five-part and upgrade. 3D downloads link is the old 1.01

Playing a game as the English (like the red color), and it feels strange to me that Frigates should be better attack than Man-o-wars. Also feels strange that M-o-Ws have transport. Shouldn't M-o-Ws replace the frigate? Perhaps with better attack and enslave?

So, who's posting a new thread for the SG?

I'd like to join in, and to be the 2nd or 3rd to play.
V.Soma is another one.
3 people are missing. Who's next?

And, the choice of the civ.

I propose one of those:

Egypt, Japan, France, Mongolia, Spain, Scandinavia, Korea.

My preference goes to Japan or Scandinavia.

Playing a game as the English (like the red color), and it feels strange to me that Frigates should be better attack than Man-o-wars. Also feels strange that M-o-Ws have transport. Shouldn't M-o-Ws replace the frigate? Perhaps with better attack and enslave?


It is in regular civ, but there is historical evidence that men-o-war were war galleons. The English built lots of frigates and lots of large (but fast) men-o-war. No galleons.

When you win a game in RoCX, the history "movie" at the end doesn't work for me. This used to work for me in vanilla CIV 3, and I specifically bought Conquests to play Rhye's, so I never used Conquests for anything but Rhye's (so I can't say if this works for me on unmodified Conquests).

Any thoughts on this?

It is in regular civ, but there is historical evidence that men-o-war were war galleons. The English built lots of frigates and lots of large (but fast) men-o-war. No galleons.

During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the British amassed a huge fleet, which was mostly French built frigates and line of battle ships taken as prizes. In all truth, the English are not known for their ship building, but instead for their sailing and fighting of them. Its just a shame that the M-o-W is mostly useless as an offensive unit (since it is NOT as good as the frigate in RoX). During the late age of sail, many transport vessels were old warships that were stripped of their cannon to house the marines and soldiers. During this period in the game (and as a student of modern European history) it feels strange to see M-o-W as a transport vessel.

Of course this is a nitpicky issue.

Playing a game now as the Americans (I notice I have started LOTS of games to see how the ancient era plays out on each continent) and the Iroqouis built 3 settlers in Salamanca, but did not move them out to settle anything. After taking out the city with an army of swordsmen (most of whom died), I got lots of slaves to work my land.

Rhye, which program do you use to press enter in debug mode?

I would pick the Scandinavians, my vote is theirs...

(supposed to be on emperor, I hope...)

In the Civilopedia it said that Galleons can bombard, but they can't.

oh, and do I have everything correctly if I upgrade the RoCX 1.01 with this 0.5MB patch 1.1? I mean starting map and all?

(I don't think I understand everything around the BIQ-stuff)

Lord Wilsonius


This is not your first post.....You make some great arguements...but please.....don't be a fraud...


I'm not a fraud! I am genuinely new here, not some old hat poster in disguise, honestly. Do you think my name or arguments resemble a previous poster? The idea that England should be renamed 'Great Britain' may have been debated here before, but I have not read those threads - this was an argument completely of my own construction!

I have a question about the expansion... am I supposed to unzip the files to "Rhye's of Civilization X" and "Rhye's of Civilization XF", or is the "XF" just a mistype?

I have a question about the expansion... am I supposed to unzip the files to "Rhye's of Civilization X" and "Rhye's of Civilization XF", or is the "XF" just a mistype?

XF is correct. It is the flavor units.

Yay! Time to play the game, then! ^^

Lord Wilsonius


This is not your first post.....You make some great arguements...but please.....don't be a fraud...

Jeff1787, I think it's pretty apparent from Lord Wilsonius's User CP that it was his first post. In fact, after his rebuttal (i.e. second post), his User CP states Posts: 2. The evidence is rather convincing. What gives Jeff1787? Do you have a personal beef with Lord Wilsonius?

WooHOO!!

Got 1.1.....many thanks Rhye & Team!!

Rhye, this mod is outstanding! :)

I shall play in the succession game, i also believe Blasphemous expressed an intrest when I posted the idea, so that makes five, only one more needed. What civ shall we be? i would like it to be one that none of us have played with the X-pack.

I cannot commit to playing a succession game but I will be very interested in lurking in one. Please make a note on this thread when you have started a thread in the SG forum! I'm looking forward to reading about it.

I want in!

Just wanted to beat the rush there ;p


Who is going to post the thread? How aggressive are we going to be? Difficulty level?

O...k... looks like it does not help that I was the first person to nab the patch... since there was a bug in it ;p

Good thing I was taking tests all day instead of playing civ haha

-> Thanks Ozzy for the notice about the Galleon.


-> So it's me, V.Soma, Vostos and Blasphemous for the SG. One more.
I propose the civ to be between Scandinavia and Japan.
Soma vosted Scandinavia

As regards the SG: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ;p

As regards the comment about Frigates being better than the MoW: MoW can hold troops, bombard, enslave, AND defend itself on equal footing against any other Age of Sail ship in this game with a defense of 4. Considering how famous the Brits were for their blockades, and considering how often one reads of the British bombarding ports or disembarking troops from warships, one begins to wonder if perhaps the MoW as a strong defender, fast mover, troop carrying bombarder makes a tad bit of sense?

Besides, it can also attack on equal footing with the enemy ship's defense... but since you can build that excellent ship, the frigate (which, you will remember was the designation for the bottom three levels of classification for warships, and had a up to 60 guns at maximum I believe, and was intended mostly for cruising duty) and use the MoW to protect it, there is no real reason to complain about the MoW.

Just play through a game as England with it, and then try and tell me that you do not absolutely adore it. It certainly ranks as my second favorite UU (#1 going to the USMC unit... the name of which is odd, but the powers of which are absolutely awesome!)!

Oh, and I would also like to be in the succession game! ;p

As regards the SG: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ;p

As regards the comment about Frigates being better than the MoW: MoW can hold troops, bombard, enslave, AND defend itself on equal footing against any other Age of Sail ship in this game with a defense of 4. Considering how famous the Brits were for their blockades, and considering how often one reads of the British bombarding ports or disembarking troops from warships, one begins to wonder if perhaps the MoW as a strong defender, fast mover, troop carrying bombarder makes a tad bit of sense?

Besides, it can also attack on equal footing with the enemy ship's defense... but since you can build that excellent ship, the frigate (which, you will remember was the designation for the bottom three levels of classification for warships, and had a up to 60 guns at maximum I believe, and was intended mostly for cruising duty) and use the MoW to protect it, there is no real reason to complain about the MoW.

Just play through a game as England with it, and then try and tell me that you do not absolutely adore it. It certainly ranks as my second favorite UU (#1 going to the USMC unit... the name of which is odd, but the powers of which are absolutely awesome!)!

Oh, and I would also like to be in the succession game! ;p

Forgot about the bombard ability. Guess they are best as support/defense vessels to escort troops and frigates.

I do LOVE the new privateer...makes it a much better unit.

Then we're five.

I'm not going to be the moderator of the SG, so please someone open a new thread.

Rhye!

I went and read up on some naval information, and found that Frigates are in fact ships that were considered too weak to stand in the line of battle!

They were intended as patrol boats really, meant to escort convoys and hunt down privateers. Apparently they were strong enough to act as the primary ship for really out of the way places, but beyond that... nothing special.

The 74 gun Ship of the Line was another story. This was the most popular ship in all navies during the time. It was a Third Rate warship (the smallest SoTL class) but was still significantly stronger than frigates of various types due to differences in construction and guns. These were the major ships, not frigates. In fact, frigates were actually rather rare compared to these bad boys. Having read Mahan, I can tell you of one major battle in which I recall a frigate entering the line, and I believe that was in the Carribbean, where the outnumbered Degrasse was desperately fleeing a British fleet and was forced to toss everything he had into the battle line. This was after the Battle of Yorktown (and FYI, he lost this one).

I would suggest that the Frigate be made slightly faster, significantly cheaper and weaker: 3(4).3.28 (ROF 1)

The Ship of the Line (the Nap War scenario has one) could be implemented as a 4(6).4.20 (ROF 2) or even just with the current Frigate stats.

It could upgrade into Cruisers, and the Frigates could become Destroyers (it seems unfair to allow anything to become a Dreadnought, considering).

Is this too extreme a change for this far into post-development? I really wish I had thought of even proposing this before, but it seems to be almost essential for historicity, considering how prevalent these ships were, and how underrepresented they are in this game. And considering how simple implementation would be! Just a quick add in and a transfer of animations from a pre-existing file!

I am sure that there is already a Civilopedia entry for them, but if not it would be the work of a moment to pen one.

Please at least consider this as a change! These boats were the primary ships for all Age of Sail fleets, and that they do not make it into the game over the Frigate is a crime!

EDIT: Here is the link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy) to the page on Wikipedia if you guys want to see for yourselves; I am not just spouting hot air on this one ;p

PS: Thanks for introducing me to that site Blas! I have been reading almost constantly since you first posted it (I think to contradict me haha) ;p

That was in my plans, but I didn't know where to put it.
I'll think about it.
A possible solution could be:
...->galleass->SoL->dreadnought->...
ironclad->dreadnought->... (no change here)
frigate->destroyer->...
caravel->galleon->transport (no change here)

or:

...->galleass->SoL->dreadnought->...
ironclad->cruiser->...
frigate->destroyer->...
caravel->galleon->transport (no change here)


This means that nothing will upgrade to frigate, and that they will be used only for scout, and will get the same movement as privateers.

Their were 6 "rates" of line of battle ships within the British Royal Navy. It is true that the 74 gun ships of the line made up a great deal of the navy, they wer slow, but could pack quite a punch!

For anyone who has read the Patrick O'Brian's Jack Aubrey books, or seen "Master and Commander:the far side of the world" the HMS Surprise is a great example of a frigate. Small, fast, and able to fight against other small ships, but it is considered rare that a frigate would be able to take down a line of battle ship in one on one combat.

Frigate captains who were albe to defeat larger 5th, 4th or 3rd rate ships of the line often found themselves promoted and given larger ships to lead. Of course, most times the goal was not to sink enemy ships, but to take her as prize and enlist her in their own navy.

I agree with Aeon that Ships of the line would make a great addition to the game for all civs.


I would love to see SoLs included in the game, and as long as frigates were inexpensive enough, they need not be seen as water superiority vessels. But instead as hunt and destroy vessels.

So here is an intersting issue. I recently captured a city, built a temple there, but no culture is being amassed. Anyone have any idea why not? 3 foreign citizens in the city. One is happy, two are content.

So here is an intersting issue. I recently captured a city, built a temple there, but no culture is being amassed. Anyone have any idea why not? 3 foreign citizens in the city. One is happy, two are content. Some governments require you to have at least 50% of the population to be your people before you can amass culture. At least that how I think it works.

In RoCX these governments are Theocratic Monarchy and Facism (flag in editer is xenophobic)

Does anybody know what the forced resettlement flag does, just out of interest?

EDIT: Just looked at the help file, now I know what forced resettlement does...

So here is an intersting issue. I recently captured a city, built a temple there, but no culture is being amassed. Anyone have any idea why not? 3 foreign citizens in the city. One is happy, two are content.
You're using a "nationalist" government type, you wont gain any culture until you have assimilated the city. i.e. you have more indigenous citizens than foreign.

@Barak: Actually, as you can see by clicking the link provided (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy), Frigates were 4th 5th and 6th rate ships.

...->galleass->SoL->dreadnought->...
ironclad->cruiser->...
frigate->destroyer->...
caravel->galleon->transport (no change here)

Sounds fine, except that I would suggest transposing SoL's and Ironclads in the upgrade tree, so that Ironclads=> Dreads and SoL's=> Cruisers

Since you have to build Ironclads from scratch, there should be a larger reward for them. Frigates actually were intended to combat the threat of the Commerce Raiders, so giving them the same speed as Privateers (or a slightly faster one to allow them to catch up) would be most excellent!

Considering that their speed will be 11 (ignore all) this seems like a fair trade for the relative cheapness of them. Frigates SHOULD have better stats than privateers to make them worth building.

SIDE NOTE:

Have you considered taking the same route with the Privateer that you did with the Militia=>Guerilla line? As they are in many ways the same (they are all 5th Column activities after all), it would make sense to make them support free, weaker hp, and slightly more (or less) expensive... although it might be necessary to lower their stats accordingly!

Forced resettlement causes you to lose 1,2,or 3 population points when you change governments. It is based on city size (town, city, metro, respectively)

Rhye, are we finished with patches then? I mean, is it installer time? Don't wanna push, but as far as I can foresee tomorrow will probably be the last day for a fortnight or so I could dedicate to that.

Aeon... I stand corrected. Its been awhile since I read the O'Brian books.

and a great sight regarding the Royal Navy

Wikipedia is a great site regarding anything! Go browse it for a few hours!

I just want to point out that either increasing the frigate to 4 defense or making a ship of the line with 4 defense would really degrade the Man o'War. And I think that the galleon should definitely defend with 3 and the MoW 4. Having the Galleon defend with 4 and frigate with 3 gives no reason to escort galleons with frigates(or ship of the line if you like).

Oh yeah, how could I forget? I would love to do the succession game! I can start it next week only, so it might be better if I was one of the last people depending on when we start.

My vote would go for Japan because I have been wanting to play them for awhile and have never played an Eastern civ before.

I agree that this would indeed hurt the MoW... so why don't we increase its bombardment a tad?

And Galleons should indeed defend at three! That sounds logical, considering how difficult it would be to fight with a heavily laden, sluggish transport. Not much room for guns and ammunition if all the space is used by soldiers.

... it looks like we are going for a radical restructure of the naval system once again ;p

I doubt that any other mod is ever going to be able to do more than copy this organization of the naval move rates/ship types. This really ought to be listed as the top mod for navies!

New Zealand, I guess

close - sydney. g'day. :)

edit: i like the discussion on naval modifications that's going on. it's a shame it's come up after the latest patch, but it definitely sounds like something that should be implemented.

EW

I agree that this would indeed hurt the MoW... so why don't we increase its bombardment a tad?


So, the MoW is going to remain the replacement of the galleon, right? We must find a solution that doesn't hurt it.



And Galleons should indeed defend at three! That sounds logical, considering how difficult it would be to fight with a heavily laden, sluggish transport. Not much room for guns and ammunition if all the space is used by soldiers.


Galleons were used as warships, too. The invincible armada was composed by galleons mostly. They were slow but powerful.


Sounds fine, except that I would suggest transposing SoL's and Ironclads in the upgrade tree, so that Ironclads=> Dreads and SoL's=> Cruisers


Why? SoL were big beasts, like Dreadnoughts were and Battleships are.




Have you considered taking the same route with the Privateer that you did with the Militia=>Guerilla line? As they are in many ways the same (they are all 5th Column activities after all), it would make sense to make them support free, weaker hp, and slightly more (or less) expensive... although it might be necessary to lower their stats accordingly!


Sounds good.

Rhye, are we finished with patches then? I mean, is it installer time? Don't wanna push, but as far as I can foresee tomorrow will probably be the last day for a fortnight or so I could dedicate to that.

I'd like to, but this discussion about Ship of the Line is going on.

It's not sure that I will implement it. If we reach a good solution, then expect another patch soon. Otherwise, you can go with the installer. I'd wait some more time in any case, because bugs or misspells can always pop up.

Oh yeah, how could I forget? I would love to do the succession game! I can start it next week only, so it might be better if I was one of the last people depending on when we start.

My vote would go for Japan because I have been wanting to play them for awhile and have never played an Eastern civ before.


I don't know how's long a SG.

If it is quick, then we (5) can begin with Scandinavia now, and start a new one next week or so, with Japan, Gunner, and hopefully, Ships of the Line!

MoW and SoL could have similar stats. Just give the MoW particular advantages (e.g., lethal sea bombard, lower cost, and/or no support cost).

In the Wikipedia discussion on destroyer escorts (DE) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_escort)
it mentioned how WWII transport convoy speeds were in the 10-15 kt range, so DE's needed to be only somewhat faster (as opposed to 30+ kts for a fleet destroyer). The frigate USS Constitution's speed is listed as 12 kt.
The point being that sail speeds are not much lower than WWII transport speeds. Some ASSAULT transports might individually be faster, but only the assault ships (if that). The bulk would not be faster. Of course, modern transports may be faster, though I would guess only up to 25 kts.

1 knot (nautical mile/hour) = 1.8 km/hr

[EDIT] Doh! Frigate speed of 12 kts if the winds cooperate.

I dont have any experience with SG's yet I would guess that they take longer than that.

For the ship of the line thing, I would support just changing the frigate's name to ship of the line. IMHO adding a redundant scout unit probably wouldn't be useful, and the AI probably won't use it.

Me too, considering how long PBEMs take!

Ok, Rhye, I think I'll begin testing, some minor changes won't be too hard to add later. Do you want me to include something like a license? I would recommend to forbid redistribution on cds with mags without written permission as a minimum. Besides that I think I'll add a programm group with a link to this thread, to the uninstaller and maybe the readmes; also I'd like to include the basic 2.66, so everything installs in one smooth process. Sounds alright with you? And is there anything else you'd like me to add?

Micromegas -> You can begin if you want. OK for what you proposed. Remember to include the 2 readmes. And please, if I release a patch, remember that I'll ask you to update it!
But wait...where do we put that file then?


Jaybe->Hello! It's been a while since you posted here last time. Welcome back!


Aeon, etc. ->I have to say that I cannot find a solution (for now) for the SoL. I tried to mess up the stats, and found that it is redundant. And what's worse: I read that galleons were the Spanish ships of the line! This confuses everything. And the Man-o-War, that's another problem, as it is a very generic name. I'm having an headache because of this. :wallbash:

Just rename Frigates to SoL and decrease galleon's defense to 3. Thats what I would do.

@Micromegas: Use a copyleft!

@Rhye: I promise to start reading up on this stat! I had a feeling that Galleons sounded Spanish... I mean, you never read about Drake sailing in a Galleon, but he is always capturing one hither and yon on his plunderous rampages across the Spanish Main ;p

However, as there were many doing duty as transports and treasure ships, it seems fine to use it as a Transport ship. I mean, if you look at Pirates! there are six types of galleons, and half of them are trade ships, so no reason to sweat too much ;p

It'll all turn out for the best after a bit haha

I'm sorry, but I have no webspace to offer right now. But I think if the installer is working as it is supposed to, it might be worth considering to replace the zips? Also, once it is distributed to some ppl we could go for bittorrent and release it into the p2p world maybe. Geez, wished I'D have more money at disposition, I'd donate some space. But as it is I'm literally living from hand to mouth errr if that saying makes any sense in translation, plain - I'm rather poor. If replacing is an option, I'd propose rar as compression format of choice, esspecially as it is easier on multivolumes if it is needed to split the installer.

Simply fabulous. :goodjob:

Aeon, you mean the GPL? Good idea... in general, but I heard rumour-wise Firaxis may release a Best of the Mods cd, there might be a conflict. Anyone info on that?

I havea problem i cant download, i think its the file type, cause it opens as a windows media player (?)
im in need of help<>?<>?<>?<>?<>?<>?

I havea problem i cant download, i think its the file type, cause it opens as a windows media player (?)
im in need of help<>?<>?<>?<>?<>?<>?

Go download winRAR at rarsoft.com

If you and I mean the same thing (not up to date on achronyms ;p) I doubt there will be much of a conflict... err... wait... never mind yes there will because a copyleft prevents sale of the copylefted material and is also transmitted into derivative works... I guess you could use some of the basic ideas from it but leave some caveats (allow sale only by expressed agreement of creator) and also leave the possibility of abrogating the transmission into derivative works.

Apparently a Man of War is an acceptable term for ANY ship (a ship being a boat with sails of course ;p) whose primary function is military.

A galleon is an incredibly versatile vessel that could be converted both to and from military usage, and seems to have been the basis for most ship types. In fact, it seems that there are no ships designated as entirely military until about the late 1600s or early 1700s.

... basically, I can find nothing either way really as to a ship design that was uniquely British... I think I am beginning to understand how frustrated the people at Firaxis get ;p

Recommended changes to ships in order to implement Age of Sail ships:

- Increase the A&D values of all ships Ironclad and beyond by two points
- As a baseline, the Ironclad becomes a 7.8

- Galleon
- Primary Transport Ship
- AD changed to 3/3
- HP -1
- Bombard changed to 4/1/1
- Movement set to 25 Ignore S/O

- Man O War
- UU
- AD changed to 3/4
- HP standard
- Bombard changed to 5/1/1
- Movement changed to 25 Igonore S/O
- Transports 2 additional units
- Remove enslave ability

- Frigate
- Primary Escort Ship
- AD changed to 3/4
- HP +1
- Bombard changed to 5/0/1
- Movement set to 25 Ignore S/O

- Ship of the Line
- Primary Combat Ship
- AD changed to 5/3
- HP +1
- Movement set to 22 Ignore S/O
- Bombard set to 5/1/2
- Enslave results in Frigate
- Lethal Sea Bombard (?)

- Privateer
- Secondary Combat Ship
- AD changed to 5/1
- HP -1
- Movement set to 11, Ignore C/S/O
- Defensive bombard removed
- Enslaves Privateers


Remember that I did some heavy reading tonight before producing this list. I have no idea about what a good pricetag would be for these ships, but I think the logic of the above system is apparent to all. Now its you people's turn! ;p

Another advantage of these increases is that there is *almost* no way the ironclad can be easily defeated by a wooden ship. Too bad there isnt some way to just mark it as unbeatable vs X where X equals wooden ships ;p

QUESTIONS:

SoL requires escort yes/no?

SoL LSB yes/no?

Change MoW to a SoL UU with various improvements in stats (please suggest the stats as well!)?

Its also interesting since I think of spanish galleons as sailing in the 16th and 17th centuries, while the big 74s and first rates to be ships of the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

Any thought to moving the galleon and MoW to astronomy instead of mercantilism? That would reflect the multi-purpose galleon preceeding the military frigate.

@Aeon--I like your list, but I liked the theory of the MoW enslave ability. Especially since the British Royal Navy was filled with French and Dutch built ships.

Right on spot there, Aeon. Ok, guess I have to do some reading on licenses. Maybe I'll ask slashdot :D that also could help to bring some more attention to RoC. Just kidding, I don't want to be responsible for bringing the forum to its kness. Anyway, Rhye needs to think about this issues in the last instance, but if I can be of help with some directions that's cool. Anyway, I think by tomorrow morning I'll have a first version of the installer itself, to add a license with some checkbox should be a breeze. The basics of making an installer are easier than I thought actually, the only prob I still can't figure out is how to check for the conquests directory and the patch status. Ah well, I never claimed to be a professional coder or anything, guess we'll have to live with that for the moment.
Oh and GPL is Gnu Public License, where Gnu means (G)nu is (n)ot (u)nix.

@ MM: OOOH I have heard of that! That was listed in the history of copyleft! ...but I will admit to knowing little more than that ;p

@Barak: You will notice that the SoL enslaves Frigates, because I also liked the idea of navies full of captured ships. However, I seem to recall that many navies practiced this same strategy of capturing and utilizing enemy ships (Suffren (French) did this in India for certain). I think we can assume that most navies would understand as simple a concept as this.

Since it gives them a defensive warship (one designed mostly for escorts and blockades, but also limited cruising) it is a very valuable trait. My biggest gripe with the changes I have listed is that the Frigate is capable of duking it out with a ship of the line in actual combat... but since I consider bombardment to be the actual line combat... and since the Frigate lacks this... I think it makes up for it.

One change I would suggest (going to edit the original post for it) is to give the SoL Lethal Sea Bombard as yet another ability in order to make it extremely important.

I really did try and post stats that force roles similar to those of the actual ships. For instance, SoLs will only be useful when protected by smaller ships, but in fleets will dominate all that opposes them. Frigates will be more useful for escort missions and patrols, but not very effective at major combat in an offensive role (despite being essential for defense). Galleons are more multipurpose, with equal A&D and ok bombardment. They basically can do anything, but nothing well.

The British MoW (retaining its Galleon position in Rhye's upgrade tree) can do everything the Galleon can, but better. It can operate independently of frigates (VERY VALUABLE!) but is best utilized in conjunction with them. It seems that I have accidentally made frigates more valuable than they should be... but really, this is the only way to make them at all useful ;p

I do not think it will really be necessary to move ships from their current positions on the tech tree.

OK... I'll admit I'm old enough to losse hair where I don't like and grow additional in exchange where I don't like it neither... err anyway, on the C64 the original Pirates! featured frigattes too, they took a spot less powerfull then a war galleon (there where the trading kind also, which a frigatte usually sunk rather easily as it outmaneuvered them) but somewhat faster. If I take SoL for war galleon (as an early version thereof) that seems to fit in just nicely into your scheme. I have some issue with privateers though, but that's more general... pirates used to utilize whatever ship they could get a hold on IIRC. But I see no way how to represent that, too bad it is not possible to add aditional flags... and link that to a building maybe, so all sailing ships could become privateers at some cost. But besides of that I must admit I like it.

Give the MoW its enslave back and I would be completely satisfied with Aeon's proposal. And the SoL should have LSB I think.

Wow, there are definitely waaaay to many confusing abbreviations floating around. :lol:

I removed the MoW's Enslave because it has become primarily a defensive ship: any engagements are most likely to be defensive, and therefore should not result in an enslave... or am I completely wrong about enslave?

Anyway, giving it enslave defeats the purpose of giving the SoL enslave. That ship is intended to fill out the ranks of the various fleets. Giving another ship that role (and especially a non-combat ship) seems somewhat goofy.

Does anyone else think that the SoL should require escorts?

Yes it should require escorts or face considerable risks from attacks of faster ships. But I think the privateer is a bit overpowered on the attack side, I'd like it better with a4 and a little faster in exchange... or maybe increased range of view or whatever that's called in English. Just too represent the fact that mobility and intimate knowledge of the seas always was a pirates best defence.

Btw, basic installer now working... well, hopefully, I just started a sissy incan game. Did anyone encounter any errors with the patch? And I could make use of the textfiles I talked about earlier now. I'd like some people who got the patched version running without errors to do the following plz:
open a prompt, browwse to your conquest/scenarios folder there (cd changes directory), then do the next step for each RoC folder - type "dir /b /s > $nameoffolder.txt" (replace $nameoffolder with surprise :D the name of the folder). This will result in a textfile sitting in that folder containing a list of all files. Then post back here and attach the files, that way I can doublecheck what needs to be copied. Two or three will do nicely. Thanks for your cooperation. ;)

Hey Ryhe!

Hmmm, playing 1.1 as the French (I love to surrender!), I notice in the very early game I can't produce Warriors anymore, only Swordsmen....as if I had Iron as a resource.

However, I haven't reached Iron yet and it doesn't show in my cities resource box. What's up with that? Maybe that's how the new patch works?

Thanks!

Is that right from the start, bshirt? In that case it must be an issue with your install, I just checked and can't confirm.

@Aeon: I like your list, but maybe privateers and frigates should be faster. That way, you will need frigates to catch the privateers. Also, you could make frigates and privateers the only military ships that does not require resources. Then they could be the poor civs navy.

@Rhye: As said earlier, I can get free space for the RoC/RoCX-installer with a good connection.

@bshirt: Swordsmen does not require iron in this mod. Oh, and warrior upgrades to spearman - they do not require iron either.

@MM: Here you are.

And just to make sure. Rhye, have you seen this?:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/announcement.php?f=51
It is about the Firaxis scenario designer job.

One other thing I noticed (dunno if this has already been adressed): In 1.01 the roman ballista upgrades to the trebuchet which is no better but more expensive. Maybe this could be fixed in a future patch or is it itentional?

A major problem is speed.

galleons and SoL should be very slow (no more than 7/20/20)

The fact that the galleass (9/9/9) upgrades to something slower (SoL) is a major problem.

Another problem: Galleons should probably be a bit earlier, but I can't put them too close to caravels.

Taijian->Thanks for the notice, I'll fix it

bshirt->In the editor everything's allright. Did you consider that warriors upgrade to spearmen?

Three clowns->thanks I didn't know. I have to send the mail again.

What is with the Clowns?!? :lol:

Hi to all!

Now how is SG standing?

I have no internet at home, or only limited (only mailing), so I would take part as player.

I think if everybody plays 20 turns or so, and file is picked up every 2 days, then it is about err, some 40-50 days?
Maybe waiting for save file can be shortened. But updating the story at the thread I can manage only from my workplace - that is, after the day playing my part...
And I don't know about Xmas time, it makes things a bit confusing
(but even then I can solve that)

All in all, I want to do it!

When to begin? :)

Rhye (& team),

Absolutely wonderful job on the expansion pack. Currently getting whipped as Carthaginians :sad:

Just found a "Gaulish" tribe in a goody hut off the east coast of Africa. Can't remember if this is programmed or not so I thought I'd mention it.

Talking to a very passionate "Age of Sail" (not a game, a period in history) friend who might be able to shed a lot of light on the current discussion re SoL, MoW, etc. He likes most of what you've suggested Aeon FWIW. Will let you know asap.

Anyway, back to the game.

Yesterday I began a game (Exp. 1.1) with the Inca.

English discovered me in the 1460s (history clicks in :)). I have a dozen cities, in todays northern Argentina and south Brasil (beside the Andes, of course).
Area covers all present and future resources and 3 luxuries.

In tech: I am learning Alchemy as at the end of the the 1500s, and have about 5-6 of the techs of the Middle Age.
America is ahead of me only with one tech (they already have Alchemy)!

* * *

I see the strategy, I will move Palace to Argentina near the future mustangs, and set up kind of a new country there.
I hope to find countries in the world for tech-swapping and catching up - so I wait for caravels.
I try to win the contest against Lincoln, and wish to keep peace...
and have that Statue with the crown and flame... :)

(Some mistakes I made, like where to cross the Andes, and maybe Palace-shifting should be done earlier, also change of government.
- anyway, there will be a second try!)

-> Yes ask the admin to change your name to Three Clowns :p

-> We're six now for the SG. I won't be a moderator, and you (Soma) won't. So that leaves Vostos, Aeon, Blasphemous and Gunner. One of this four, feel free to open an SG thread.
I'd prefer to make 1 day as the standard period, with another day conceded only if needed.

->Procrastinator, could you make your friend post here some of his knowledge?

for the SG:
here is my address, well two - I ask files to be sent to BOTH:

soma.varady@office.ksh.hu
somavarady@yahoo.com

Rhye, does it at least give you a baseline to work from? That was really my goal with the whole thing. If it succeeds in that, or at least helps you a bit, then it did its purpose.

Haha, I know I am not much of a stat modder, but I gave it a shot ;p

email: eeline AT thehill DOT org

And... if no one wants to, well, I can begin a game, first 20 turns?
Scandinavians, emperor, version 1.1?

And can mail save tomorrow morning (Central Europen Time) to where I should. I will keep diary that I can copy into the thread.

How many turns a game has, 400?

Then with 6 players it means that everybody will have ca. 3x20 to play...

Aeon, your list was pretty similar to mine (I wrote something in sheet). But we're far from a solution.

The game has 400 turns. Aeon, will you open a new thread for SG?

I am here for another one and a half hour - I just want to know if I should start a game today with those Vikings :)

A major problem is speed.

Another problem: Galleons should probably be a bit earlier, but I can't put them too close to caravels.

You're right on this issue. Is there a way for Naval Tactics to require Mercantileism? That would solve the issue as far as I am concerned.

Finishing up a game in 1.01 before I start 1.1.

Chinese Empire grew very quickly. I have noticed that the AI doesn't always move out its settlers to create new cities. Many times, when taking a capital, I notice the AI has settlers to enslave.

Also the Palace guard makes the ancient era intersting as a war monger.

Opening thread now!

EDIT: Does this mean I should start the game and post it up there too? I have a track meet today, so probably not a good idea for me to start so I will just set everything up as best I can ;p

You're right on this issue. Is there a way for Naval Tactics to require Mercantileism? That would solve the issue as far as I am concerned.


Interesting solution

Where's the thread?
I am not thread-ening you, but will have to go in a half an hour...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2414123#post2414123

here it is!

I set blas as the first player

I would do the turn, but I have to go reasons detailed in thread.

I look forward to watching the progress of the SG!

Since the .sav files will be posted, feel free to hardcore lurk and dl them ;p

I think that there are only five people in it ATM, but if I missed somebody just shout... err... or post ;p

Re: Ships

Rhye, have you got any new ideas for how to deal with the SoL?

Hi everyone, I am a Procrastinator's friend who is just a little bit passionate about sailing and especially the great era of sailing naval combat.

(note after posting: this is very long to I have highlighted relevant bits)

It is hard to start talking about such a broad topic but I will start specifically.

It seems to me that besides all the fiddling you guys are doing with sail in general, a big task you are trying to work out is the English special unit (forgive me if I use poor terminology, I understand what it is to be a fanatic about a game - just not this one :) )

The English super era of ships was in the late 1700s to early 1800s. It is during this time that although they were outnumbered by the combined fleets of the French, Spanish and Dutch (all bowing to the absolute command of Napolean in Europe) that England was able to dominate the sea by knowledge and training. The fact is that the famous English victories such as The Nile, St Vincent and Trafalgar had little to do with the quality of the ships. It was a known fact at the time that French ships were actually made better, with better timber, could sail faster (if handled properly) and very importantly, could sail closer to the wind. In a chase a French ship would catch an English ship.
The difference came in training. The English were known to be able to fire their cannons 2 - 3 times faster than any other nation. You could imagine the big three decker 100 gun Victory blasting a full broadside into your ship in just over every minute. The English dominated the seas and kept the other nation's fleets holed up in harbours where they were unable to train. The dominance became so apparent that historians recall that at the battle of Trafalgar where Lord Nelson actually published his plans in the newspaper for the enemy to read, the French and Spanish KNEW they would lose, and the English KNEW they would win.

The superiority of the English was due to morale (can that be implemented in CIVS) and rate of fire of cannons (possibly more attacks per turn?). The training lended itself to better turning and faster trimming of sails aswell, but I'm not sure that is relevant here.

As for ship classes I feel that a lot of you are on the right track. It is difficult to give certain ships certain titles. A Man-O-War was a generalised title given to fighting ships and even given to the people who fought on them. It wouldn't hurt to make this the English special unit as it was definetly only a title used in England (because the words are English). Galleons and Galleases were Spanish used to pathetic effect in the Armada of 1588. The English used a new light frigate class to outmaneuver the Spanish troop ships and hit them at range. If the English had been boarded they would have been slaughtered - but they weren't. The English lost 100 men and the Spanish lost thousands as their ships foundered. This is what comes from manning ships with troops instead of sailors. During the late 18th C frigates were used for scout duty around a fleet of SoL. Of course they also intercepted small craft, ran mail or fought their own frigate battles. But their main purpose was to create a chain of gun and flag messages that could alert the main body to another fleet or ships leaving a harbour - then bring in the big guns. Something to question is do SoL need escorts? They needed frigates for scouts and resupply, but in battle they were unequalled. Don't compare SoL with the Galleons of the late 1500s. A 3rd rate to 1st rate ship needed time to accelerate or turn, but with a full spread of sail they could fly in the water - their masts were enormous. The stern and bow chasers of a SoL could cripple a smaller craft and one turn of their broadside that could fire with huge effect up to a mile, would make small ships strike their colours instantly (surrender).

Taking prizes was very important in the naval battles of the world. Each nations fleet was made up of captured ships from the other nations over the previous decades. At the battle of Trafalgar a French ship captured by the English fought against an English ship captured by the French. In the Age of Sail I believe it is very important that all ships can capture other ships. But maybe only smaller vessels as the man power was an important factor (a 1st class ship would carry over 900 crew).

I think that is enough, ask me any questions any time and I will try and be brief :crazyeye:

Thanks for letting me post,

Samart

Great explanation regarding late Age of Sail.

Could we then give the MoW greater rate of fire for bombard?

Is it possible for naval units to blitz?

Three Crowns, thx a lot. I'd like one or two more though. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2413498&postcount=4831 People with working patched versions plz read!

Three Crowns & Rhye;

Whoops! I should have checked that. So sorry. :-)

That's what always happens when I "assume" something. :-)

Awesome mod!

Some governments require you to have at least 50% of the population to be your people before you can amass culture. At least that how I think it works.

In RoCX these governments are Theocratic Monarchy and Facism (flag in editer is xenophobic)


Aha!! The same thing happened to me last night. I was banging my head against the wall :wallbash: thinking my city culture meter was broken. Thanks.

Thought I let you know, what's the state of things. So here's what I got now:

- monolithic installer for 2.66 and xpack 1.1 with full GUI, installs both in a single run
- creates programm group containing links to uninstaller, this thread (maybe replace with mod homepage?)
- displays readme when finished with installation.

To do:
- Update readme regarding installation process, maybe merge readmes for mod and xpack.
- license.

Thoughts, plz? I'll go and take a look at licenses now. Rhye, I need your input on this.

Very interesting, Samart.

I have a question:

were SoL and Frigates ever used for troop transport?

And I'd like to know from you what exactly these ships represent (they are MoW, Frigate, SoL and Galleon in the game):

Thought I let you know, what's the state of things. So here's what I got now:

- monolithic installer for 2.66 and xpack 1.1 with full GUI, installs both in a single run
- creates programm group containing links to uninstaller, this thread (maybe replace with mod homepage?)
- displays readme when finished with installation.

To do:
- Update readme regarding installation process, maybe merge readmes for mod and xpack.
- license.

Thoughts, plz? I'll go and take a look at licenses now. Rhye, I need your input on this.


Put the links to both this thread and the site.

Remember that the uninstaller must remove everything was added in the installation. I hate when registry keys are left here and there.

Merging the readmes will be a bit hard. Do you want a doc or a txt? The doc allows to keep the pictures.

About the license, I really don't know...

Ok, I'll add a link to the site. There's nothing to worry about registry entries, there's no need to even touch it for the mod and xpack, just for the uninstaller itself, so it shows up in control panel/software. So it should be clean.
The merging is just to have the installer display all there is to read about RoC at the end of installation. It seems I can only call one file at that point and I think this 'forced reading' will save a lot of support work. But you do't have to spent your time on that, I think I can handle that - will send doc when I got to it. I just mentioned it, as it was on my to do list.
The license is the most interesting question, and the one I cannot answer. That's up to you Rhye. I Think the most crucial question is whether there will be siad 'best of the Mods' cd release. Do you have any info on that?

I have no info on any Best of the mods CD.

Can you tell me what are the pros and cons of this licence?

http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html here's the copyleft license, essentially a free license that makes sure noone else is making money of your work which you released free of charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft here's an overview, too.
The problem with it is that it requires derived works to be distributed freely too, which is in general a good thing, but will be a problem if Firaxis should really decide to do a 'best of' as the Mod can't be a part of that anymore. The pro of course is that noone can make some minor changes and try to market that, ripping you in the last instance. Another problem is that I'm not sure if it is at all applicable, as would be true if there are copyrighted files distributed with the mod, e.g. animations. But I'm by far no lawyer anyway. Hm... wonder how other mods do this stuff, I never saw licenses with civ mods, but hw about other games? I for one do think there should be some kind of license, that would open other paths of distribution than just downloads. Quality is good enough to try to get it on game mag cds, imho... and that could help your application, right? ;)

What jsut came to mind is, that IIRC the BSD license does differ on the part of commercial redistribution. Hmmmm.... Regarding mag cds, maybe there's even a way you can get some money ofr your work finally, if you want to follow that road. What could be nice about that is that there would be no real charge to the user. Ah, all just unordered more or less random thoughts anyway

MMmm. What should I do to acquire that licence?

I'm going to send a notice to some game magazines; that installer would be very useful, and the license too.

But I don't think that I should make any money with it. I don't think that's lawful.

Oh, actually there is not much to do, we just add the license file to the installer and let the user click a checkbox to accept it or something like that, some licenses of this open source style obliges to mention the creators of the license or something similar, but there is no sign up or any such. Here's an overview on open source aka 'free' licenses http://www.opensource.org/licenses/

Geez, do we have any lawyers aboard? LOL

Open source is a bit misleading for the mod as there is no compiling involved there are no sources, but somehow it does apply as anyone is free to open the relevant files with the editor. (?) One thing that also comes to mind, as far as I know you used animations by quite some ppl, just to be on the safe side, ask them for written permission, I think email should be ok though. But I guess you've done that anyway already.

That's a problem. There are 20 or more people to give credit and to ask to.

I understand why The Urban Militia==>Partisan==>Guerilla line was given -2, but why was the Urban Militia also incresed in cost?

Hm... Don't think it is absolutely necessary as the animations have been posted for use by anyone, but credits should be given I think (for politeness) and maybe an added disclaimer to be safe.

Please pardon my brevity, I just got back home from almost two days out of town, and it's now 1:45AM (was around 1:10 when I started to go through the new posts here. ><) I kinda wanna get the posting over with and get to bed.
Recommended changes to ships in order to implement Age of Sail ships:...
I generally think your suggestion is great.

A major problem is speed.

galleons and SoL should be very slow (no more than 7/20/20)

The fact that the galleass (9/9/9) upgrades to something slower (SoL) is a major problem.

Another problem: Galleons should probably be a bit earlier, but I can't put them too close to caravels.
But the SoL would indeed be far faster than the Galleass at getting from place to place... You can almost always just use some nearby sea to travel quickly along the coastline, and it's good to slow down the movement of the age of sail ships in completely coastal areas anyway.

Not sure if it matters (since the mod is nearly done), or if its even been discussed (hard to tell in 245 pages!!), but there are alot of civ traits that aren't combined.

For example these aren't combined:
Agri, Comm
Agri, Mil
Agri, Sea
Comm, Ind
Comm, Exp
Exp, Ind
Ind, Sea
Sci, Sea

Just wanted to point it out.

Not sure if it matters (since the mod is nearly done), or if its even been discussed (hard to tell in 245 pages!!), but there are alot of civ traits that aren't combined.

For example these aren't combined:
Agri, Comm
Agri, Mil
Agri, Sea
Comm, Ind
Comm, Exp
Exp, Ind
Ind, Sea
Sci, Sea

Just wanted to point it out.

I know this, but I prefered to give the priority to history instead of filling all the combinations.

I know this, but I prefered to give the priority to history instead of filling all the combinations.

No problem, just making sure :)
I agree that historical relevance is better, jsut making sure ;)

I understand why The Urban Militia==>Partisan==>Guerilla line was given -2, but why was the Urban Militia also incresed in cost?

All of them were increased because AI over-produced them, as they don't require support. Those units are now the best choice for the civs with no resources and no gold. No matter how much they cost.

And they should also be very useful for any productive empire that needs to invest its precious gold in things other than its army... With the UM line, such a nation can mass-produce the weak, no-support infantry, and wage an effective war without needing to spend alot of gold on it, and without even needing to be in a gov't with good free unit support!
This line will be the weapon of democracies and republics. :D

Blas, the last sentence breathes a historical cynism I like alot :D Guerilla as the weapon of choice for republics ... like in afghanistan during the russian occupation... thumbs up LOL

Rhye... if you had to decide which page to link to, would that be forum or the modpage? I run into some strange problems when I try to add both. Guess that's because I'm utilizing some premade modules, esspecially for the registry stuff. Seems to point all *.url to the same URL. I'll work that out, but I get the feeling I need to learn quite a lot befor I can be sure not to introduce errors for a rather neglectable feature (err imho). So, if you don't mind I'd like to stick with one link in the programm group for now. Plz decide.

I just worked on a possible solution. Tell me what you think:


Galleass movement reduced to 8/8/8 (previously 9/9/9)
Upgrades to SoL instead of Frigate

SoL: 5/5 Movement: 8/22/22
bombard 8/1/2.
(Possibly 1 transport. Only if Samart says that they were used for transport, too)
Upgrades to cruiser.

Nothing upgrades to Frigate now.
Frigate: A/D: 4/2 Mov: 11/11/11 (like the Privateer) + Radar
bombard: 6/1/2

Ironclad A/D increased to 6/8 (previously 5/6)

Privateer 3/2 instead of 4/2. No radar, but they can enslave.
bombard: 4/1/2

Galleon A/D 2/3 instead of 2/4
defensive bombard: 6/0/0

No changes to the old MoW settings xcept bombard: 6/1/2.

Blas, the last sentence breathes a historical cynism I like alot :D Guerilla as the weapon of choice for republics ... like in afghanistan during the russian occupation... thumbs up LOL

Rhye... if you had to decide which page to link to, would that be forum or the modpage? I run into some strange problems when I try to add both. Guess that's because I'm utilizing some premade modules, esspecially for the registry stuff. Seems to point all *.url to the same URL. I'll work that out, but I get the feeling I need to learn quite a lot befor I can be sure not to introduce errors for a rather neglectable feature (err imho). So, if you don't mind I'd like to stick with one link in the programm group for now. Plz decide.

That's bad. :(
Link to this thread for now, but you really need a fix

Another quick question for you guys.

Around 200 or 300 AD i am 2 or 3 techs into the Middle Ages, I thusly want to send a settler and a worker to African to get that good colony in the place with the oil and rubber and everything! Unfortunatelly, my galley keeps getting ambushed by 2-4 barbarian ships and sunk :(

My question is how do you experts at RoC go about getting colonization going, not just in African, but everywhere?

Still looking forward to the new Strategy Guides.. I saw earlier in the thread "SG" :goodjob: and I got excited, but no..:cry: .. it is something else.

KUTGW

thanks

You probably have to wait the Age of Discovery.
With superior ship you can travel anywhere.

Another quick question for you guys.

Around 200 or 300 AD i am 2 or 3 techs into the Middle Ages, I thusly want to send a settler and a worker to African to get that good colony in the place with the oil and rubber and everything! Unfortunatelly, my galley keeps getting ambushed by 2-4 barbarian ships and sunk :(

My question is how do you experts at RoC go about getting colonization going, not just in African, but everywhere?

Still looking forward to the new Strategy Guides.. I saw earlier in the thread "SG" :goodjob: and I got excited, but no..:cry: .. it is something else.

KUTGW

thanks
Like Rhye says, it will be a while before you have the right vessels for this mission... But you may be able to just manage it if you use a large stack of galleys to clear the barbarians, and another large stack coming up right behind, defending and carrying your settler/s.
Generally I would suggest just beelining for the naval techs and using the more advanced ships when they come along.

Another quick question for you guys.

Around 200 or 300 AD i am 2 or 3 techs into the Middle Ages, I thusly want to send a settler and a worker to African to get that good colony in the place with the oil and rubber and everything! Unfortunatelly, my galley keeps getting ambushed by 2-4 barbarian ships and sunk :(

My question is how do you experts at RoC go about getting colonization going, not just in African, but everywhere?

Still looking forward to the new Strategy Guides.. I saw earlier in the thread "SG" :goodjob: and I got excited, but no..:cry: .. it is something else.


What Blas said. In my games I rarely colonize, I conquer ;)

What Blas said. In my games I rarely colonize, I conquer ;)
With me it entirely depends on what nation I play... Now playing as Germany I just recently acquired my first colony in a peace deal. I don't think I've even ever built more than one or two naval units... But in my previous game of England, I colonized as much as I could. I stopped playing during the colonial era but I was doing pretty well at the time.

Yes, England or Portugal for colonisation! When playing Portugal I was quite successfull dragging the barbarian galleys close to my harbours (seafaring!) and used guerilla style attacks against them, hit and retreat. Finished them off one by one, that kept the number of needed galleys low.

Rhye, working on it. I was lazy, and now that haunts me. The Problem is that I'll need to rewrite the uninstall section from scratch to fix it probably. Anyway, as long as I don't run out of coffee... I already said byebye to this night's sleep... It's annoying me too and I'll get it fixed somehow.

Another quick question for you guys.

Around 200 or 300 AD i am 2 or 3 techs into the Middle Ages, I thusly want to send a settler and a worker to African to get that good colony in the place with the oil and rubber and everything! Unfortunatelly, my galley keeps getting ambushed by 2-4 barbarian ships and sunk :(

My question is how do you experts at RoC go about getting colonization going, not just in African, but everywhere?
If you want to get colonization going before Caravels, you'll have to deal with the barbarian galleys that roam the seas. What you want to do is carefully lure them towards your ports. If you have a ship out, and they're fairly close, they'll come after it. Get them close enough to one of your ports so that your galley can come out, safely attack one of their ships, and then get back to port, where it will be safe. Repeat this as many times as necessary.

Also, since you never know where one of those barbarians might show up, it's a good idea to send at least one escort galley with your settler-carrying ship.

As a colonizer, I found it more effective to build up small stacks of colonial infantry and various ships and just capture the colonies I needed.

Oh, and I always establish colonies in Brazil! Best place EVER! If you get some slave workers in there, you can link up like five rubber deposits, 3 gems, a tobacco, some uranium, 2-3 aluminum, some spices... etc ;p

Only thing it lacks is... well... stuff you can get back home in Bonny Ol' England ;p

AND it makes an excellent staging ground for further conquests in Africa and the Carribbean! Especially if you give it a FP. An airport or two (and later on some helicopters, but really they arent very useful for anything other than rebases to airportless cities) gives you the finishing touch on this brilliant gem of a colonial territory!

Really, the only place I can always assume I am colonizing is Brazil; the AI heads for it last, the terrain is good for cities, and the ability to simply move in on large numbers of resources make it par excellence in my experience!

ANYway, about the ships!

I am comparing Rhye's list and mine and seeing if I had any suggestions back then... cuz right now my brain is fried ;p

For the ships, I would decrease the frigates ROF to one in modification of Rhye's proposal. I also think that SoLs should enslave frigates.

I always like to colonize that area of Argentina which has all of those nice rivers and cows. I like cows alot. :goodjob: In my English game I have aquired pretty much all of eastern South America with about 8 cities. That combined with the India Company, a FP in Argentina, and alot of courthouses means lots and lots of money good old mother England. Not to metion the overabundance of luxuries and resources that get exported around the globe. [pimp]

There's a lot of wonderful places to colonize.

My favorite civ to play colonially is Japan. I'm weird that way. In one game I had 65 Pacific ports. It was crazy. I had an unbroken line of Japanese cities from the southern tip of Chile to Alaska.

SHIP SHI... STUFF ;p

(APOLOGY IN ADVANCE! I got carried away in the writing, but I really started getting passionate ;p)

If any ship deserves to go really slow, it is the SoL. For the most part, the major battles involving the SoL were not very far from its home ports. Why? Because such a massive ship was extremely expensive! The loss of something that huge would have been a major loss for any nation!

Frigates, on the other hand, were considered almost expendable in comparison. They were the ones cruising and acting as escorts... not SoL!

Analogy time! SoL's are like Abrams Tanks. They are massive, incredibly deadly, speedy on a straight line, and expensive. Frigates are more like Bradley Fighting Vehicles. They are quick in the normal sense of the world, deadly against everything smaller (and capable of evading larger foes), and (in comparison) relatively cheap.

Now ask yourself. Have you EVER heard of an Abrams being used to guard a convoy? Possibly yes, BUT only if that convoy is expected to go through some extremely hostile territory, or if the convoy is particularly valuable... which explains why Degrasse was defending a certain convoy of ships... which were holding a cargo of cannon... which just so happened to result in the doom of Cornwallis!

Ok, so now we have established that the Frigate was a ship whose speciality was escort duty and patrols. Everyone knows that the Frigate was a beautifully lined ship, designed for speed and maneuverability, while the SoL was built for sheer ability to kick A$$

I previously showed you guys a link which stated that the galleon was a versatile ship, often converted between military and civilian uses with great alacrity. It was in fact an excellent vessel! An incredible number of them were produced, simply because of how excellent and versatile they were... although clearly they were not really ships of the line. They were well designed ships, albiet technically of an era prior to the one we are really representing.

Finally, the Privateer! Fast, footloose, and fancy-free, these guys were basically Jack Sparrow with a license to kill (and no EvIL dEaD style monsters ;p). I can understand the reasoning behind forcing them to stay near a base (most French privateers operated out of France!) since we hardly need ships of roving miscreants stalking the planet (something they would hardly have done...), but they do need to be strong enough to cause some damage without being too powerful and eliminating the need for another class of ship... likeee say the frigate? ;p

Baaasically, I really am pushing for a good reason to build every ship! We require something like that with ground units (the good all around, the quality defender, the superior attacker, the mobile attacker, etc) but ships... not so much anymore, not so much ;p

TO THE POINT!

Rhye, it seems like you are really killing the reason to build frigates. You are making them frightfully slow, weak attack units with a bombard barely equivalent to that of a galleon (which is defensive!) and then granting them radar (oh, its ok that you suck and are really slow, because YOU CAN SEE FAR! ;p) and then! THEN! you create a unit basically equivalent (except with an even weaker attack) that can enslave... and it gets better! BOTH of these units suck so much compared to the SoL that if either gets built its because you are sick and tired of seeing the darn thing!

Seriously, you would have to be a bit loopy to build a ship incabable of defending itself against a galleass... and if you build the frigate, thats what you are! ;p

(please please please notice that most of this is hyperbole and laugh at it a bit ;p)

I will more than admit that my stat suggestions are not perfect! Most of them I ripped off of convenient land units (Privateer=> Crusader, SoL => lancer -1 w/ BONII) which fill the same duties! So sure, tweak em a ton. But seriously, history aside, you cannot have a unit that is so dominant that no other unit types will be produced. It destroys the point of giving the player a choice... the choice which you/we considered so incredibly important when designing the land tree.

Take everything you read with a grain of salt, and possibly re-think this plan. In the end, Rhye, it is totally up to you. Its your baby and its your decision... I'm just trying to change your mind ;p

Update... I have started from scratch all over cuz I decided to change the whole installationsystem used. Initially I used an evaluation of the wise installer, I just kicked the stupid thing out... switched to Nullsoft Installer, which is open source (woot!) albeit less powerfull, but will suit our purposes nevertheless. Found a real nifty editor for that and voila! two working links in the darn programm group and uninstaller. Now I'll have to go through the copy and paste nightmare of all that files again, but things are looking really good, that's just plain stupid routine stuff mostly. Err... sorry needed to vent.

And did anyone notice it seems to be season for passionate post ;p (<- sorry for the plagiarism ;))

Hello,
I just noticed that the Secret Police HQ doesn't create any unhappy faces. Should it?

Hi, to all!
Nice to see this activity around here! And what a history lesson we get about naval technics... :) This is what school should have been! :goodjob:

Well, I gave yesterday the Incans another start

INCA – 2

Main efforts went to cross the Andes as soon as possible. After two cities founded at the ancient land of the Andes, my nation took claim of the Pampas, Gran Chaco and the Campos (later Barzil).

I traded heavily with my fellow Southern nations, but avoided giving much to Lincoln.
My scouts collected an amazing lot from the goody huts: 9 (nine!!!) :D techs came free – giving a real boost, and thus Middle Age came around AD 800. By this time I already moved Palace to the new big city :king: – east of the Andes!

The Portugal discovered me pretty early, in 1370, and I welcomed them and the Germans (!), for suddenly I could buy techs from the money I saved up until then.

It is now in the 1440s, and the Incans are a christian nation, have 4 universities (!), and with freshly bought techs – Alchemy, Magnetism – now we are ahead of America in the tech-race, and just 5 turns away from the first caravel unit – ahh, there is New World to discover in the far East! Will we meet the English in the mid-Atlantic? :)

Ok, I think RoCXinstallerRC1 is ready for testing. Filesize is 151mb. Let me know what is to happen now. No license included, so this is not going to be the final, but I think I want someone to take a look at it and hear some comments. Rhye?

Frigate has OFFENSIVE bombard: 6/1/2.
If you think it is too similar to the Privateer, I can reduce the Privateer movements to 10/10/10, and increased Frigate defense to 3:



Galleass movement reduced to 8/8/8 (previously 9/9/9)
Upgrades to SoL instead of Frigate

SoL: 5/5 Movement: 8/22/22
bombard 8/1/2.
(Possibly 1 transport. Only if Samart says that they were used for transport, too)
Upgrades to cruiser.

Frigate: A/D: 4/3 Mov: 11/11/11 (like the old Privateer) + Radar
bombard: 6/1/2
Nothing upgrades to Frigate now.

Ironclad A/D increased to 6/8 (previously 5/6)

Privateer 3/2 instead of 4/2.
Movement: 10/10/10
No radar, but they can enslave.
bombard: 4/1/2

Galleon A/D 2/3 instead of 2/4
defensive bombard: 6/0/0

No changes to the old MoW settings xcept bombard: 6/1/2.

I also think that SoLs should enslave frigates.


That would be cool, but then I'm not sure that every player or AI will upgrade to the Cruiser.

Ok, I think RoCXinstallerRC1 is ready for testing. Filesize is 151mb. Let me know what is to happen now. No license included, so this is not going to be the final, but I think I want someone to take a look at it and hear some comments. Rhye?

Then you have to upload it.

Who was having that space, is it enough for this zip?



BTW, for those installers I once tried Setup Generator Pro. In case you need...

Rhye,

If you can hold off from making your final decisions re the ships, Samart has some interesting (no extra work) ideas that can really improve the realism of the mod. He's shown me that some of Firaxis' necessary choices (compromises) might not be needed for your accurate mod. I'll try to get him to post tonight (Aussie time). Cheers.

Hello,
I just noticed that the Secret Police HQ doesn't create any unhappy faces. Should it?
That's an interesting idea... It would produce a dilemma of corruption vs. unhappiness for communist nations.

That would be cool, but then I'm not sure that every player or AI will upgrade to the Cruiser.
Make the Cruiser sufficiently and appropriately powerful and nobody will want the damn free Frigates... Any post-ironclad ship should be able to easily tear apart the rest anyway.
And even though I know very little about naval warfare, I saw once on TV a shwo about the development of modern ships, and one important thing about the Dreadnought was that it was so powerful and had to be built from scratch, and that meant that every country suddenly could become a naval power if it could produce enough of them. And so I propose that nothing should upgrade to the DN.

Then you have to upload it.

Who was having that space, is it enough for this zip?
For this kind of huge file I think the best way to distribute it would be via p2p sharing... eMule would be the easiest to do it with, but BitTorrent may be better for the job.
It's just kinda impossible to email the file to anyone...
So MM, you should just make sure the installer is ready for use, and then set it up for sharing in eMule and send me a link. I can start downloading right away, and then when we have two sources (me and you) we can have other people download it from us, and quickly it will spread and become more readily available.

Then you have to upload it.

Who was having that space, is it enough for this zip?

I have sufficient space for it. I will pm info to Micromegas so he can upload it.

Hello,
I just noticed that the Secret Police HQ doesn't create any unhappy faces. Should it?
That's an interesting idea... It would produce a dilemma of corruption vs. unhappiness for communist nations.

That would be cool, but then I'm not sure that every player or AI will upgrade to the Cruiser.
Make the Cruiser sufficiently and appropriately powerful and nobody will want the damn free Frigates... Any post-ironclad ship should be able to easily tear apart the rest anyway.
And even though I know very little about naval warfare, I saw once on TV a shwo about the development of modern ships, and one important thing about the Dreadnought was that it was so powerful and had to be built from scratch, and that meant that every country suddenly could become a naval power if it could produce enough of them. And so I propose that nothing should upgrade to the DN.

Then you have to upload it.

Who was having that space, is it enough for this zip?
For this kind of huge file I think the best way to distribute it would be via p2p sharing... eMule would be the easiest to do it with, but BitTorrent may be better for the job.
It's just kinda impossible to email the file to anyone...
So MM, you should just make sure the installer is ready for use, and then set it up for sharing in eMule and send me a link. I can start downloading right away, and then when we have two sources (me and you) we can have other people download it from us, and quickly it will spread and become more readily available.

EDIT: Was having internet problems so I only saw that EW can let MM upload it directly now, after I posted the post. Anyway, it would still be cool to distribute the installer via p2p, in addition to using a direct download.

Make the Cruiser sufficiently and appropriately powerful and nobody will want the damn free Frigates...

They would if they upgrades to something that is still usefull.

They would if they upgrades to something that is still usefull.
Then maybe they shouldn't upgrade? I think it would be better than way than it would be if don't have SoL enslaving just because we want the Frigate to upgrade...
Or the Frigate could upgrade to the Ironclad which would make it mildly useful but not so much so once Cruisers come around. (As long as Ironclads are a dead end.)

Or the SoL could enslave to Privateers.

in Rhye's of Civilization Expansion pack v1.01.biq
the improvement Monastery produces no happy face but Civilopedia says it can produce three

in Rhye's of Civilization Expansion pack v1.01.biq
the improvement Monastery produces no happy face but Civilopedia says it can produce three

In fact, it is already fixed in 1.1

Then maybe they shouldn't upgrade? I think it would be better than way than it would be if don't have SoL enslaving just because we want the Frigate to upgrade...
Or the Frigate could upgrade to the Ironclad which would make it mildly useful but not so much so once Cruisers come around. (As long as Ironclads are a dead end.)


I think Ironclads should be the new start of the line, and upgrade to dreadnought.

I don't want enslavement for SoL for other gameplay reasons, too. I wanted to leave that ability to privateers and UUs (Man-o-war and Gallivat)

Iron clads weren't the start of a new line as you put it... they were older ships 'clad' in iron at the beginning so frigates should indeed upgrade to ironclads (I'm thinking the USS Virginnia).

However, there did quickly become a point where old upgrades didn't work anymore, the HMS Warrior (the 'black snake') was a totally different kind of ship, yes it was still wooden... but it its design couldn't be much further removed from the old style ships.

So... unless you add a short lived class of 'Ironclad Steamers' which are replaced by the very short lived (in reality) dreadnaughts... then not upgrading the frigates to ironclads does make sense.

However... you should say that an ironclad couldn't upgrade to a dreadnaught after all... the ironclad is still wooden under the metal skin... the dreadnaught isn't.

The ironclad has a movement much inferior to frigates. That upgrade would be a downgrade in some sense

I still think that Frigates should enslave, since that was one of their functions in European navies. To hunt down and sink enemy ships of take them as prize. Afterall, this was cheaper than building new ships.

Could we increase the base cost of the SoL? Kind of like the battleship in the next age, the cost of these monsters should be almost prohibitive.

Also, for Ironclads is the thought that these are the ironlcads of the American Civil War like the CSS Manassas, CSS Virginia and USS Monitor? Or iron plated sailing ships. The reason that I ask is that the Monitor and Manassas were not dsigned to be used in the open sea. If we are talking iron plated sialing ships, then the open seas should be just fine.

Rhye, lower speed doesn't necessarily mean it's a downgrade, and it may be realistic... Anyway, when the Ironclad comes in we should see a period of drastic changes in naval combat, leading up to the even more drastic changes that the Dreadnought created.
But I think it is vital for historical accuracy that nothing upgrades to Dreadnought. Ironclad can upgrade to something else, but not to Dreadnought.

Hi again. Firstly I want to say how much I respect what is happening at this forum. Trying to make things historical is really a completely unique idea in gaming and it is great that players will have the choice to play something historical for once.

I have a lot of points to make about military sailing ships.

It should be stressed that capturing ships was the driving force of the large navies at the end of the 1700s. Captains wanted to fight for their country in order to gain prize money. As England had completely depleted its source of Oak trees in England by 1800, the English were desperate to increase their shortage of ships by capturing. Crews went in by boats at night time into harbours and stole ships from underneath enemy gun emplacements. This was how the navies of the world worked. Every navy did this and it was not just the exclusive role of privateers. A privateer was a vessel (of any type) that a wealthy investor bought to use for capturing prizes. This was all about money, where as service in the navy could mean duties involving mail dispatches, troop transport or convict transport that only paid the monthly wage.

It is interesting for me to note that frigates seem to upgrade into destroyers, rather than modern frigates. The majority of any decent sized navy is still made up of frigates, whose role is still to scout and patrol. Smaller navies that can't even afford frigates mostly use patrol boats around coastal areas and this might be something worth thinking about. Maybe upgrade your ancient age coastal boat to the more modern patrol boat at the right time? I see that destroyers (which are basically just big frigates) are probably unnecessary as the role they probably fulfill is actually the role of modern frigates. Frigates are modern sub-hunters. Cruisers shouldn't replace battleships, but they did make them redundant. Guided missiles that can now fire 250nm make the 25nm range of the best battleships redundant. The modern age shouldn't have battleships (although it is fine if they are still floating around ie. USS Missouri). Modern navies are centred around aircraft carriers, with cruisers acting as anti-air and anti-shipping and frigates acting as picket defences against subs. In my opinion destroyers shouldn't exist in the modern age either.

All ships have the ability to carry troops but it was rare for a battle machine like a SoL being given the task of transporting. It was more common for a frigate sized vessel or smaller to have transported soldiers. Merchant vessels especially were converted for transport duty or in the case of the invasion that Napolean was planning he was going to use small barges. The Spanish used the Galleon to transport soldiers during the Armada which was exceptional circumstances due to the fact that the ships were meant to fight in the English Channel and then invade England. The Galleon was a Spanish fighting ship, not a transport. The images that you showed me Rhye don't appear to have a Galleon shaped vessel anyway. It would be more historically accurate to still use the same animation and call it a merchant vessel, or transport if you want. I think an issue you may be having is finding special names for every vessel that covers what every nation would have called it. Maybe an early sailing vessel could be merely be called "Sailing ship" (similar to the naming of the Scout ship) rather than Junk (which was a style of rigging used in the Orient).

I believe a Man-O-War should be a frigate sized vessel as it was more common to call frigates or smaller MOW. The largest ship image should definetly be the SoL. The third image (the second largest ship) has lines that suggest it is a Fleut (a Dutch merchant/fighting vessel). This could be used as the transport class. The other two images that are smaller could be the frigate and the MoW. The MoW should be a frigate that reflects the skills of the British (rate of fire especially and maybe faster coastal movement to reflect better training). As enslave should be done by all sailing vessels, it shouldn't be unique for the MoW. I have been told that privateers already have the ability to hide their nationality, and that is probably all the abilities the privateer should have over the frigate. They are not unique ships.

I have more to say but I understand that people have a life outside of reading my post :)

Feel free to ask anything further (if you dare :lol: ).
Samart

I agree with Blas. I suggest:
galleass->frigate->ironclad->destroyer
SoL->cruiser
dreadnought->battleship

Edit: Just read Samart's post - so maybe this post is irrelevant. :)

Perhaps the Man-O-War should be just a Frigate with Blitz and an increased cost? A blitzing naval unit would be HIGHLY valuable, since it would be able to execute as much as ten attacks per turn if not more (depending on the movement type, since an attack costs one movement point no matter what terrain you're on, iirc.)

I like the blitz idea for the MoW. I also agree with Samart about the rate of fire issue. Since modern firgates aren't in the game, what should the SoL, Frigate and MoW upgrade to Samart?

Trying to get him off his Battlefield LAN (don't think less of us!)

Destroyers should probably be renamed to Modern Frigate.
Frigate & MoW should upgrade to Modern Frigate.
SoL should continue in "battling ships line", ie. to Battleship (which should become redundant/obsolete with Cruiser).

May already know about these, but just in case for the expansion pack:

Frigates don't upgrade to destroyers although it says they do in the Civlopedia.

Partisans can't enter restricted terrain, although it says they do in the Civlopedia.

Having a blast with this. Thanks!

No more modern ships! We have enough of them! I won't add any modern frigate.

->I agree of the galley/junk thing, but all the game uses specific names (galley, caravel, galleon) and if I used generic names I should apply this to everything.


->I'd like to know some more info from Samart on the Ironclads. Is their slow movement correct? Did they ever tranport military units? Which was the ship that broke more the line of upgrades, the ironclad or the dreadnought?

Blitz for ships means X number of attacks, where X equals the number of move points. This would be EXTREMELY overpowering! I am utterly against this idea!

Rhye, I THINK he means just renaming Destroyers to Frigates... which probably wouldnt hurt ;p

It depends on the type of Ironclad; the earlier ironclads (like the CSS Virginia) were actually just wooden ships plated in metal. The USS Monitor was completely made of metal. The Brits produced ironclads mostly along the lines of the Virginia.

SO if we intend ironclad to mean fully-metal... then it is a HUGE break. BUT if it means iron CLAD then it is simply a matter of metal plating... and therefore just a change (albeit a big one).

Dreadnoughts were so huge and awesomely strong that they really did represent a massive change in how things worked.

Also, do you think there is any way to show the greater reliance of Industrial onwards ships on ports? Reducing movement is not a logical option, so how about increasing hitpoints by 2 or 3? That way HP losses will feel like a lot more to the player, and will force them to move into port sooner. Making them really expensive would also make sense (and would force most countries out of the serious naval game...).

Off to the airport, see you guys tomorrow!

USMC units can't board transports.

Just a quick point on the Monitor:

Monitor's upperworks were all iron, but the hull was wooden. This is true of all the monitor type vessels of the Civil War era. They were never meant to be ocean going, but rather coastal in nature.