Updated the to do list

Sure:
1) To write an updated readme.doc, because much has changed since 2.0
2) Post an already patched version, because last patch has grown too much (5MB)
3) Someone to write a strategy guide for RoC. I really really liked Kellos comments, and I'd like him or not only him to write a little paragraph for a civ. Of course, old kellos review is obsolete right now, so the work must be restarted. When I've got 31 guides, I would stick them all together in a .doc, write an intro and make it available for download in the first page.

Possibly:
4) Release an optional Expansion Pack containing some new units (more Guerrillas, Atomic Bomb, Elephants), a new civ (Khmer instead of Sumeria), a new French leaderhead (in development) and maybe something else
5) Release the (optional) Expansion Pack #2, with one more UU per civ
6) A site to put together all these things plus alternate versions

Hey thanks for caring!

Later

troyc2004

Ok.
I have free time (i'm making my final exams but i'm lasy). Firs the homepage need a name f. e.: www.[name].uw.hu. In this server we can put 100Mb data.

:eek: 100MB? Are you paying for having such a large web space?

In the meantime, I'm looking for volounteers for the strategy guide. Just few lines for each civ you've played with v2.3
I could put them all together in a .doc, or put them all in the site if habee makes it.

Hungarian free webserver with same banner.

the name :

www.rhyesciv.uw.hu

It depends...
if you want the site to be only for RoC, I think that the best solution is www.rhyesciv.uw.hu (with the 's', I guess it's correct but not 100% sure)
If you want use site for other puropses, too (as you're registering it, you may want to use it in some other way and leave only a page for RoC) then www.habee.uw.hu\rhyesciv could be a good choice. However, in case you want to post something else, but still related to Civ, the best choice remains www.rhyesciv.uw.hu and then add a section inside with your files

In the meantime, I'm writing the new readme.
I want to include it in the whole package (already patched to 2.3 complete zip), and it would solve the problem "what to write in the site".
You can make a page for each paragraph of the readme: it would become an hypertext instead of a document.

OK. i will make the registration for www.rhyesciv.uw.hu

I don't know if this is news or not, but in my first two minutes of playing this map, I found a bug.

Started out and popped a warrior out of Yenihseir. (Or however you spell that...) Borders expanded, saw an odd encampment thing out there. Thought it would be a barbarian camp, so I set out to eliminate it before it became a threat. My warrior got there, and I was given the message, "You have disturbed an angry Mauryan warrior."

Damnit, I think to myself, as three full-health warriors pop up around me. (Although personally, the likelyhood of something like that should be reduced if the barbarians are going to have a fair amount of health, I can understand it if you don't want to.) Two of the three attack - the third one fortifies, and somehow my warrior makes it out of there with two health and a promotion. Next turn, my warrior starts retreating back towards the main city so as to escape and heal the other warrior. Didn't seem likely, but there was always a chance.

Here's where I encounter a problem. The third warrior moves directly onto a mountain when I tried to run away. Confused, I try to find a reason why he could move there, hoping maybe it wasn't a glitch. I looked around the map, and found that the square he started in was a plateau - so I guessed that perhaps you have to be on a plateau before you can get on a mountain. I took a new warrior that had just been built, and moved it around to the back of the mountain where the plateau was, hoping to either lure the barbarian down from his perch or to corner and kill him when I reach the plateau. He doesn't budge. I reach the plateau, and guess what, I can't go on there either.

The bug: When a barbarian camp is popped and you disturb an angry warrior, if one of the three randomly selected squares are normally inaccessible to warriors, that barbarian will be stuck there, but will still be able to command a zone of control and can't be removed until you get a form of lethal bombardment, or get lucky with workers.

I don't know if this is fixable or not. But if it is, please try. This dulled my first experience with this mod just a bit, to say the least.

PLs send a e-mail to habee_small@freemail.hu and i will send the password to FTP server and you can upload the patch and readme.

Khift, let me understand better...you're using the version 2.3, right? The problem here is the zone of control or the fact that they can cross the plateau and the mountains?

Yes, using 2.3. And the problem is that they can cross mountains. Your units can't touch them when they're in the mountains, making them nuisances that can descend upon your cities with reckless abandon. Really annoying, and can cost you the game.

also, while they are just sitting in the mountains, untouchable, your workers wont go outside if you automate them, and there is nothing you can do about it...

Thank you. I've uploaded the new version with back to old settings (except the +1 hp for barb warriors) and some fixes. Who has v2.3 need to download only part 1

I've finished writing the new readme.doc
It will go to the new site, too, so I need someone (native english) to check if grammar is correct.
Please if you are a volounteer, post your email (where I'll send the doc) here or tell me with a private message, thank you.

Re barbs popping up or moving into mountains etc., I thought that was the intention and think it's a great idea. Such nuisance values should be appreciated! :D

I never automate my workers. My Guerilla units are not wheeled so they route them out. (Understand, I haven't played/experienced this yet, so my own appreciation values may change).

Rhye, I'm playing the latest version of your mod.

I was curious as to what was going on around the world later in a game of mine and was about to start a brand new game anyway so I used PowerBar to reveal the whole map.

I discovered that the AI is still sending a sort of "crusades" to battle lots of barbarians stacked in the camps...particularly in central asia... is this supposed to happen? I thought that if this barbarian behavior was removed then gameplay would be so much faster...

I discovered that the AI is still sending a sort of "crusades" to battle lots of barbarians stacked in the camps...particularly in central asia... is this supposed to happen? I thought that if this barbarian behavior was removed then gameplay would be so much faster...

I know, and there's no way to stop this, unless someone finds a way to stop respawn of barbarian camps

Sent the readme to roluce. The mail is 600kb

Re barbs popping up or moving into mountains etc., I thought that was the intention and think it's a great idea. Such nuisance values should be appreciated! :D

It was my mistake, because I thought that wheeled units were stuck, instead they can move FROM a mountain/plateau TO a plain/grassland/hill/...
So, if barbarians are wheeled, the first thing they'll do is to descend. Instead if not wheeled they'll move around and remain on the mountains for a longer time

It's very bad :(

I am very good editing skills (haha) so email it to me if you want at: e_eline@hotmail.com

I will write up a few strat guides when I get home, but right now I have like ten exams.

Speaking of problems with Barbarians then you should be aware that there is a serious bug with the behaviour of barbarians in Conquests.

This thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87625) (posted by me) describes the details.

It's very bad :(

What's wrong? I've immediately posted the new patch (2.32) with the old settings


Speaking of problems with Barbarians then you should be aware that there is a serious bug with the behaviour of barbarians in Conquests.

This thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87625) (posted by me) describes the details.

I've read it. Well, that's not my fault :)

Rhye : simply dislike unkillable barbarians in mountains ...

So, if barbarians are wheeled, the first thing they'll do is to descend.
Yes, they will descend given the first opportunity. In C3C the first opportunity is for there to be a non-barbarian unit on their NW or SE axis (at any range, not just adjacent); until then they will not move.

The site is online! Under construction, but it's online!

http://rhyesciv.uw.hu

Under "description" section we'll post the readme
Under "strategy guide"....the strategy guide!

i don't know but i think Rhye's Civilization is the correct ( without "of" )

habee, do you like the new layout of the site?

I know that it shouldn't be correct, but the "of" makes the word game "Rise of Civilization"

Roluce, can you upload here at civfanatics the corrected readme? My email isn't woking....

Says on the site there's a new resource system. I'm playing the mod and I haven't noticed anything special as far as resources (except that my cities have Dyes twice, and I can trade the two seperately. o_O)

You don't see it because it's invisible to the user.
The new resource system includes some resources that appear later and invisible resources, used to balance the civs strength

... except that my cities have Dyes twice, and I can trade the two seperately.
Oh Snark, I forgot about the Dyes. This is nice since marketplaces do not multiply them anymore.

I was going to make all the tobaccos be lux items, but I aborted when I realized each type would be a different lux. Oh well! If it's going to occur with dye anyhow, I suppose I may reinstate it. :)

Rhye,

Here is the updated readme. Please verify that all the changes are acceptable. I edited it for grammar, readability, and clarity. I also worked a little on formatting and spacing. I hope it is all to your liking. --- pay close attention to the initial description --- I took a little liberty there!


New Readme (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/rhyesrdm.zip)

I saw. ok. 13 o'clock I will travel. I can't make many things now. When I wil come back I will make :
- working counter
- chatbox
- i want to creat a html readme (with images) but everybody can download the doc
file.
- and more
about you: I understand that you want a civstyle page. Ok. Witch homepagecreator software do you use? (I saw the html code in notepad and ....)

You don't see it because it's invisible to the user.
The new resource system includes some resources that appear later and invisible resources, used to balance the civs strength
Can you please elaborate?
I'm very much intreagued.

Oh Snark, I forgot about the Dyes. This is nice since marketplaces do not multiply them anymore.

I was going to make all the tobaccos be lux items, but I aborted when I realized each type would be a different lux. Oh well! If it's going to occur with dye anyhow, I suppose I may reinstate it.
What, so this is intentional? Is it suppost to represent different "brands" of the lux or something?

Thank you Roluce, you did a splendid job (but I swtched back to "colours": I speak true English ;)

Blasphemus, you'll find your answers in the updated readme (I'm posting it right now)

the site is updated

Hi, I just wanted to say I have finally managed to make this work for my c3c Spanish installation, making copies of the spanish named art/units folders and renaming the copies (and the .ini inside them) with the english names.

And... I love it! I don't think I will be able to go back to normal rules... the slower and more expensive settlers, the natural barriers for settling and moving... I only would miss being able to play in random maps, I'm not a big fan of real earth maps. I like to feel the threel of really exploring.

Another thing I miss is the celts. I know they are in a crowded zone... but I don't like using "modern" civilizations, I only like to see in the map ancient era ones. Thus, I rule out the French, Spanish, Netherlands, Austria, Ottomans, Byzantines, Americans... and still considering things like Germans not being "germany" but "the original german people". So, I would not mind seeing the celts and the hittites back... although I understand the reasons for them to get out :) I will have to remod the mod a bit, I guess :). I just like civs who I can feel well and minimally historical starting from scratch (mongols for example are middle-ages, but still they have the 'right feel' for me).

I will say it again. Awesome work...!

Rhyes (and all here)

First let me say that your mod is the only one I play now. :thanx: I absolutly love it.
It seems like your goals now are more toward tweaking the technicals & tightneing documentaion. So I understand you are not looking for map quibbles...
But in the months I have been playing, the North America thing has been driving me mad! I even read through all 27 pages to see what others had said about it and I understand why the continent was made the way it is - to slow the americans from dominating.
The problem is that the west coast is almost pointless because there are so few decent settlement points. I first had the problem playing as the chinese - I went to settle there (there is some (pseudo)historical basis for this & the japanese doing so as well) and found too few tiles that I could build on. Alaska has one site, the pacific northwest has a few and californa has a few but they are all massively limited by the mountians and desert squares. Additionaly, the maze like plateaus & mountians create a choke point of one desert square to allow passage to the interior.
I have been experimenting with tweaking the map (for personal use) and adding a square or two to represent the bounty of the area. Anyone have experience with this? Or any other changes?

I thought about these additional N America tweak suggestions - I may try these as well:
the addition of the Ozark moutians & Black hills on the map.
A majority the of the continent east of the Mississippi river should be forested. Someone else noted this earlier and this was the situation.
Canada has too much Tundra, espc. the lower part and the area surrounding Hudson's Bay.

Has anyone thought about creating the missisippi river as actual coast, sea or even ocean squares? That might slow up the American expansion and a few strategically placed ocean squares in the carribean would help as well.

As for the entire 'should there be an america at all' thread, there probably shouldn't be - it is historically incorrect in the early stages of the game (might as well start with Afrikaneers too). But if you want a european civ in North america, you might think about the Irish (c. 484) or the Norse(c.1000). Cut out the Americans. Maybe a seperate civ would start in Iceland or Ireland with one ocean going vessal and one settler and one military unit. Have to make their way there, etc...

just a couple ideas I had. Oh, and two things - first, this is bugging me. From earlier in the thread - China and India had contact (how do you think the chinese got buddhism?) early on. In 645 Hsuan-Tang returned from a pilgrimage to india, 800 years before Emperor Zhu Di sent out the treasure fleet. I'm Just a stickler for historical accuracy. :)
lastly - why do you refer to Livorno as 'the italian stalingrad'?

anyway, thanks for the mod and any opinions about the changes I may make would be appreciated.

First let me say that your mod is the only one I play now. :thanx: I absolutly love it.

Thank you. Vote please!


But in the months I have been playing, the North America thing has been driving me mad! I even read through all 27 pages to see what others had said about it and I understand why the continent was made the way it is - to slow the americans from dominating.

Yes it is very crippled in the beginning but when America hits Feudalism (should happen in the game in ca. 1500) suddelnly cattle and wheat appear (European exportation) and America starts to grow faster. More resources will appear later, and it seems that in the Industrial Age America fills the gap (well, in my test games it happened).
There is so much Tundra in Canada for one reason: if Iroquois settle near the lakes, they'll have much food (from lakes) and shields (from forests) and begin an unstoppable expansion which makes them stronger than America. So it's better reducing the tiles available for settlement.


As for the entire 'should there be an america at all' thread, there probably shouldn't be - it is historically incorrect in the early stages of the game (might as well start with Afrikaneers too). But if you want a european civ in North america, you might think about the Irish (c. 484) or the Norse(c.1000). Cut out the Americans. Maybe a seperate civ would start in Iceland or Ireland with one ocean going vessal and one settler and one military unit. Have to make their way there, etc....

If only Firaxis had implemented events like in Civ2 :mad: For now if you don't want America, just don't select it in the startup screen


just a couple ideas I had. Oh, and two things - first, this is bugging me. From earlier in the thread - China and India had contact (how do you think the chinese got buddhism?) early on. In 645 Hsuan-Tang returned from a pilgrimage to india, 800 years before Emperor Zhu Di sent out the treasure fleet. I'm Just a stickler for historical accuracy. :)

After an old patch early contact between China and India is possible


lastly - why do you refer to Livorno as 'the italian stalingrad'?


That's the way Berlusconi called it. In fact he fears Livorno because it's the most "left oriented" city in Italy, where the communist party takes the 30%, the moderate left wing takes a 40% and the rest of the parties (centre and right, including Berlusconi's Forza Italia) share the remaining votes. Though I hate Berlusconi, I don't agree with excesses of fanatism (like commemorations of Soviet Union, see photo below) and anti-Americanism that happen here, but that's my city and I must accept it.

Site updated: now contains the readme in the section "Description".

I'm looking now for volounteers for:

- sending some screenshots (of a recent version of the mod, let's say 2.2+) to be posted
- writing small paragraphs to put in the strategy guide, exactly here: http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/strategy.html

HI
I have arrived at home at this moment. I looked the site. that is great. I like them. Do you want to I make the changes (high score...others)?

I'm glad that you like it. Consider that I haven't studied html and used any program, I just saved a few pages, looked at the code and did "copy and paste"!
The bars on the left in the description and strategy sections instead required a longer work - they're a cut of the world map, photo-edited.

I think that now it's needed some input to fill the empty sections (screenshots and strategy). You could handle the screenshot thing all by yourself, or you could write some of the civs' strategies and send them to me (I would correct grammar before posting)

How to aply this mod to the C3C Spanish version:

Go to the /art/units/ folder from the root civilization folder.

Copy each folder. Paste it in /art/units/ (which will produce a lot of 'Copy of ...' folders). Rename all the folder names to their english translation. Rename each .ini file (one in each folder) to their english translation (for example 'Infanteria.ini' would be 'Infantry.ini'). Once renamed copy all those folders into the /conquests/scenarios/Rhye's/art/units/. If you get prompted by "Do you want to overwrite", always say NO.

Tadaa... very occasionally I get the "can't find file" error, but I just write down the file missing, adjust the translation (notice sometimes the spaces in the name of the folders and the name of the files) and when I reload the autosave, it all goes well.

Damn... why the hell did they have to translate the bloody file names...

Thanks, now if this happens again we'll know where to send a Spanish user with problems :)

In the meantime, the site was again updated. I've submitted it to www.civ3.com

It would be handy if there was somewhere a zipped (or compressed in any other way) content of the /art/units/ folder of the English version. That way you would just be able to copy its content to the different /art/units/ folders. Since the names are differents, both languages can co-exist, and since it has been taken directly from the English installation, there would not be any syntax trouble (for example, I typed Manowar, instead of the correct name for folder and .ini file Man-o-war).

Yes, but in order to reduce the zip to a small package. only you can do it, because I don't know all the spanish names.
What's needed is the english list of the units and the ini with the same name: but each ini must contain ..\[spanish folder name]\[filename]
You can post the spanish C3C biq and I can do it for you, but I won't be able to see if it works...

I will do so when I reach back home from the office, then. You can attach files here, or should I use my own hosting?

I have been trying to download this for three days now, after reading the readme file, while quite frankly has me salivating . . .

i think maybe god is punishing me

well, i guess i'll try again
(it's funny, cause i have no problem downloading anythin else from this site!)

I like the colors and the loading speed, but I wish I could play with my own map settings, heh.. I've always prefered a small Pangea with a few civs.

I like the colors and the loading speed, but I wish I could play with my own map settings, heh.. I've always prefered a small Pangea with a few civs.


Although i ave yet to be able to download this (i am on atempt 15 right now!) you should be able to use theese rules with any map (although i am sure balance would not be right) just load the biq file in C3C editor, un-check the custom map in rules menu, and save (AS A DIFFERENT NAME!)
this should work, but again, i don't actualy have the mod (yet. I will get it, one way or another!) :cry:

Observations about game progression.

I have finished a game with the Romans on regent level. Thanks to the expansionist trait I got an early middle ages (early for my level of game I would say), around 50 DC or something like that. But after that and despite my dominance in Europe (conquered Spanish, and German, the portuguese were destroyed by the Spanish, the French by the German) and the sheer amount of science I was generating, there was a point that I reached the minimum number of turns to research. I discovered america in 1495 DC (something that actually made me clap for this mod) and I found that the Aztecs, Mayans, Incans and Iroquoise were still in ancient age (another big clap). But, from the historical point of view everything started to go slower from that point. I did not hit industrial age till the early 1800s, and I did not hit the modern age till... 1990. All the time I was in the lead of the tech race and only colonized the Brazilian and Argentina coast (mainly for the rubber, but since I was into it...).

When I got tanks, in the 70's, I went for the Greek, my main competitor, WW II style, and threw him out of continental Europe, leaving him only with his colonies and Cyprus. All the time during the industrial age all my techs costed me exactly 7 turns, no matter my science slider would be at 30% to 70%.

I scored a cultural civilization victory just past the 2000's, although I was nearly in the verge of achieving a single city cultural victory.

I must say I'm about to switch to monarch, since of late I have been able to win all the games I have played lately on regent. I just need to get rid of my industrious trait addiction first... (already working in kicking out my wonder addiction).

Has anybody else noticed this? A late industrial and an even later modern ages?

But, from the historical point of view everything started to go slower from that point. I did not hit industrial age till the early 1800s, and I did not hit the modern age till... 1990.

That's because of your difficulty levels: you conquered most of the Europe at the beginning and you've become too powerful and so, alone in the tech race, with nobody to trade.

Baraka, what's the problem?

That's because of your difficulty levels: you conquered most of the Europe at the beginning and you've become too powerful and so, alone in the tech race, with nobody to trade.

But, in an unmodded game, I gain even further militar and territorial advantage and I still reach the industrial and modern ages far earlier.

Lucius, that's cause in the normal game the minimum time to research a tech is lower...

Posted update v2.33, thanks mainly to Blasphemous, Lucius and zagyg

What's new:

- Updated xdpc.pcx, xdgc.pcx and xcso.pcx
- Added dyes in Mexico and Peru, removed some in Europe (in Germany, Austria, Denmark and Ireland)
- Removed the 2nd type of dyes because it caused an odd dye-for-dye trade (European dyes back to standard); updated luxuryicons_small.pcx
- Unblocked a passage in Scandinavia
- Some changes to the American map: added the Salt Lake City region (the lake + two hills) and the Black hills; modified Hudson and Atlanta regions; modified the Missouri
- Moved barbarian camps in Florida, Suez and southern France
- Tuned Egyptian and Portuguese strength
- Minimum number of turns decreased to 6
- Swapped Persian and Carthaginian colours (Persia is more yellow, like Cyrus' golden eagle)

Hey Rhye,

Your mod is excellent, it's about all that I have been playing lately. Since your last 2 patches I've played and nearly finished games as the Romans, Japanese, Ottomans, Americans and Austrians. All of these games have been on Monarch and all of those civs seem to be very playable and balanced. The Austrians and Romans in particular are juggernauts. I do think the goodie huts spread around Eurpoe need to go though. The tech pace there is already fast and it is not at all uncommon to pop a settler within a few turns and a 2nd city that early makes steamrolling your neighbors too easy.

I also tried a game as the Zulu and got nowhere. I know you are striving for as much historical accuracy as possible but would you consider undoing just a bit of the crippling to some of the lower powered civs so they become more fun for a human player? Maybe even just give an extra worker or scout or something.

I also really like some of the UU changes you made, although it was a nasty surprise for me when I played as the Persians and planned to lay waste with epic style 4/2/1 immortals only to find that you changed them into spearmen hehe. The Austrian Grenzer is a great unit too since at 4 attack you can use them extensively in place of MI which seems more realistic and the Hussars really add some flavor with their blitz ability. Do you have any plans to mix in more new units? I'd love to see some more gunpowder era units that are good for something besides defense.

If you are changing the minimum tech pace to 6 turns I think that is a great idea. In a few of my games I have found myself outpacing the AI, especially around the combustion bottleneck and being forced to sit around 7 turns no matter how high my research base gets kind of tedious.

So you've played so many games?
Can you send me some interesting screenshots? I'll post them in the new site. Send to gabrit@portalis.it or if they're too big, upload them here at CFC.
Thanks and vote please!

. Do you have any plans to mix in more new units? I'd love to see some more gunpowder era units that are good for something besides defense.


Something's going to be done, sooner or later, in an Expansion Pacl

I'll send some screenshots to your email. I'm starting a new game as the Dutch tonight so I'll take some good ones.

If you still want brief write ups for your site I can do some for the civs I have played. I have really enjoyed your mod so I'd be glad to help out if I can.

I'll send some screenshots to your email. I'm starting a new game as the Dutch tonight so I'll take some good ones.

If you still want brief write ups for your site I can do some for the civs I have played. I have really enjoyed your mod so I'd be glad to help out if I can.


Thank you very much!!!
I really needed someone to complete the site: about the screenshots, you could send me some old savegames too (in various eras) and I could make some. About the writings, as I've said I don't need pages and pages :) If you looked at the site there will be a section with general suggestions and then brief civ-specific suggestions

You'll join the "special thanks to" section :beer:

Rhye,

I will write some strategy guides. Which civs do you want me to cover? I think I would be willing to take 4 of them. Perhaps if you designated them it would help. I just started a Germany game and will have a strategy guide soon. What three others would you like me to take?

Do not choose Zulu, Romans, Japanese, Ottomans, Americans, Dutch and Austrians as Horton has already played with them, and do not choose Portuguese, English, Byzantines and Incas as Kello has already written something.
My advice is to play with Demigod level if you're taking Germany, and if you take native American of Africans play with an easier level (Regent or Monarch).
Of course, use the last patch (2.33 posted this night)

I'm working on an alternate version with random maps.

It will lose much of the good things of this mod, but will offer a chance for ME to play a game without already knowing everything...
As I do it, why not sharing it?


here are the changes (for now):

- New world size settings that will fit 8, 14, 20, 26 and 31 civs in the map in the same way as standard Rhye's of Civilization (same number of land squares per civ)
- Removed all the invisible resources and the resources that were appearing later
- Removed the special Barbarian warrior and special Hussar and Cavarly for American civs
- There won't be LM terrains
- Eruption period back to 5000
- Re-enabled resources disappearance probability
- Ancient settler cost raised to 140; Medieval settler cost raised to 200
- Edited tech rate?

I will work on Mongols, Egyptians, Germany, and Greece.

Baraka, what's the problem?

well, no more problems rhye! (i dont want to get into the technicalities of the problem i was having, lets just say it was COMPLETELY my fault, and i feel like an ass :mischief: )

i have only had a chance to play for an hour or so, let me just say i am extremely impressed! (i am playing my first game as germany, if anyone cares, and on regent level. (sorry, i am a bit of a newbie!)

the work you put into this mod realy shows, and makes for such a much more enjoyable game (even the short time i have played it i can tell!)

the only thing i have noticed so far (and it might be fixed in the new patch) is that the civilopedia entries for terrain (although an extremely minor thing, do not corrospond to all the terrain changes you have made, and the original graphics are shown in the 'pedia, but this may be hard coded, i don't know.

anyway, just want to say i am a huge suporter of anything you do from now on (in fact i have been using your terrain already for a few months now!), and one day i hope to post something that is even half as ambitious as what you have done here.

bravo!

There are double or triple cities: Entremont/Marseilles and Byzantium/Costantinople/Istanbul.
Marseilles, Istanbul and Byzantium deleted.

I would like to add one to the list. The celtic city of Lugdunum is modern Lyons in France. Here's some proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugdunum).

Awesome Mod. I love it. Thank you :)

Thanks!! And vote please!

In case of another patch, I'll delete Lugdunum and update civilopedia terrain pcxs.
I'd like to add entries for new terrains, but I really don't know what to write in the description...
If you find something on the web, please post here!

Baraka -> this mod is said to be easier than standard game if you use an European civ. So my suggestion is to try an harder challenge.

I just started a game as the Germans. It is one of the better mods I've played. A strategy guide would be helpful, because as Germany you quickly become boxed in.

An idea for an addition...

what do you think of moving the War Elephant back to "Riding" (instead of Horseback Riding) and add another Elephant archer unit, available to all civs with Ivory (Carthaginians, Persians, Egyptians,...) and so making Ivory a strategic resource instead of luxury. I'm not sure about the stats (3/3/1? 2/3/1? 3/2/1? +1hp? and Indian elephant what more?)

An idea for an addition...

what do you think of moving the War Elephant back to "Riding" (instead of Horseback Riding) and add another Elephant archer unit, available to all civs with Ivory (Carthaginians, Persians, Egyptians,...) and so making Ivory a strategic resource instead of luxury. I'm not sure about the stats (3/3/1? 2/3/1? 3/2/1? +1hp? and Indian elephant what more?)

That sounds cool. You should keep the Indian elephant at Chivalry, and give the elephant archer unit at riding. Maybe 2/2/1 or 2/1/1, with an extra hitpoint. And if it's an archer unit, the 0-range bombard.

I seem to remember something about the pikeman having a bonus against mounted units. You could us that flag in the editor for the elephant units (including the war elephant) since horses were scared by the smell of elephants.

EDIT: I looked in the editor and the only flag I could find for it was "foot unit", which, according to the help, only goes with "can transport only foot units", which no ship has. Weird...

Rhye, if you're interested in messing around with the whole setup of units in the pre-gunpowder era, there are some major discrepancies in the original game...
Just to name the obvious ones, offensive archers and defensive spearmen:
Archers, in all their forms, everywhere, were always used for defensive tactics, never, not ever, were they used as offensive units.
Spearmen, in the classical age, were used both for defense and offense, and the Greek Hoplites were unique in their use of especially effective offensive units.
I know your objective is to mirror history as much as possible while still leaving the game pretty much as-is, but I put together a scheme for pre-gunpowder unit-chains that made much more sense than the original setup. I even made a tiny mod out of it, but never really went through with the entire change.
If you're interested in hearing how it should work, just say the word. ;)

As you've said I don't want to mess up the whole tree, but you could post the tiny mod you have made anyway, never say never...

The mod itself was incomplete, so I won't bother... The reason I never finished was I got all befuddled by pricing the early medieval units...
Anyway, the general idea was as such:
Swordsmen and Warriors stay the same.
Spearman costs 30, stats 2.2.1.
Hoplites get 3.2.1. (Basically an early spearman that doesn't require Iron.)
Immortals are a spearman replacement that gets +1 HP (the Immortals were a single unit of spearmen who always numbered exactly 10,000 and were hand-picked elite soldiers. This gave the impression that they were immortal, because the unit numbere ten thousand, battle after battle.)
Numidian Mercs get 2.3.1 and cost the same as regular spearmen (basically they stay unchanged. ;-)
Legions get 4.3.1 and cost 50, still replace swordsmen (the roman legions were very powerful both on offense and defense, but for game balance reasons they have to be expensive.)
Archers are now 1.2.1 (1.0.1 or 2.0.1), at a cost of 20 shields. (Reflecting their defensive role throughout history.)
Archer-based UUs remain unchanged.
Longbowmen are the English UU, 1.4.1 (3.1.2). I don't know exactly how much they should cost. (England was the only country ever to use Longbowmen. The Longbow was a highly ranged, highly effective weapon, used by very well-trained soldiers who could fire quickly and accurately to a great distance.)
All other nations get the Crossbow, 1.4.1 (3.0.1). Should cost 40s.
All that is the easy part... It sorta gets messy once you get to Pikes and Muskets.
The changes really are pretty major I guess, but they're much more accurate than the current model... Every time i see a Zulu Longbowman attacking something I wince. =\

I tried myself to tweak a bit, but I understand that the risk of unbalancing is too high. And it should be considered that if it's true that an offensive archer is unrealistic, from another point of view it is realistic because archers used to do long range attacks but needed protection of infantry because of their poor armor/ short range defense.

So I'll leave everything as it is now, except perhaps the Elephants.
The impact on strategy for Egypt/Carthage/Persia/Babylon/India is high, but the change is motivated by historical facts: as they're now (in Middle Ages) they're completely out of place, and the fact that only India can use them is a huge lack.
I have clear how to do this, but I'll do it only if:
- most of you agree (and I think that Itzvan will do, considering his signature :) )
- Aluminium (the AoK unit converter) converts the Elephant Archer (I don't like the jimmyh's conversion). Otherwise there's another good unit but I'm not 100% sure.

I think there should be no problem renaming Ivory to Elephants and making it a strategic resource required for some elephant based unit... Sounds good. :goodjob:
About Archers, whenever the were used offensively, it was as light artillery... You would never send a herd of Archers running at the enemy and trying to shoot at them... :rolleyes:

So, here are the changes if I get a decent unit. Do you all agree?

- Rename Horseback Riding to Riding
- Rename Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/3/1, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/3/1, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:40 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry

That, and rename Ivory to Elephants (you can't ride on their tusks alone, right? :P)

yes, of course :)
I'll send a PM to Aluminium and see if he can make it

I've take the American and WTF there is so much barbarian around me... cant even keep one town without beign attacked by 20 to 30 Swordman Barbarian ??? I dont know if its a Bug but its seem impossible to play with the american at Emperor level.

sry about my english, im french.

- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/3/1, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)

A Horseman is 2/1/1... do you know how unbalancing it would be to add a 3/3/1 unit then?

A Horseman is 2/1/1... do you know how unbalancing it would be to add a 3/3/1 unit then?
The proposed unit would cost way more than a horseman, and it would only be available to those with elephants. :rolleyes:

Hey what's that face? It's only a proposal! What stat would you give (considering that swordsman and Ancient Cavalry have 3/2/1)

2/2/2 or 3/2/2, +1 hp, cost 35 for first, 45 for second. 2 movement- that's what the War Elephant has.

Well, Elephants are not fast as horses...but let's see: is it better now?

- Rename Horseback Riding to Riding
- Rename Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:40 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons

That only leaves 7 unique luxuries (8 if you count the 2 wines). I think you should add a new one for gameplay purposes. How about making sugar and/or tobacco a luxury? You would have to figure out which of the multiple versions, though.

And a wine-for-wine trade is still possible. Do you want this?

Wine to wine trade isn't possible because the American wine is a bonus luxury. I had no choice here because otherwise it would have introduced a bug in the city screen.

I won't convert sugar or tobacco to luxury because of the well known trade consequence.
I think that leaving 7 luxuries is not that bad. It breaks the scheme 8-8 to 9-7. but the game can still be balanced (I can just remove some dyes in norther Europe and it's allright)

I looked, and both Wines resources are luxuries. I'm patched to 2.33. Are you sure you changed it?

What do you mean by "bonus luxury?"

Sorry, "bonus resource"

Umm you're right, I thought I changed it from 2.21 but it's still there. I'll have to check if there's the bug again....

The bug has gone...

by the way, has the wine-to-wine trade even happened in any game? (I know it may happen, but it's very unlikely as there's an ocean in the middle)

The Ottoman's Scientific trait doesn't seem to be working - playing v2.33

In fact they are industrious and militaristic since v2.0. I forgot to update the civilopedia :(

First of all I think that this is the best mod ever!
But I think that you could edit so that it will be lose ends (like Cavalry) no more.
"Running" around with Cavalry and fight TOWs is unrealistic!
And I hope you put in some more units!
(sorry if you (Rhye) allredy answred on something like this)

>Ottomans are industrious and militaristic since v2.0. I forgot to update the >civilopedia

I eventually figured it out - though the no GL's despite convenient punching bags like Babylon and Sumeria made it a little hard to tell. Great overall mod, though endless capital stacks can get a little monotonous - Persia itself is apparently Immortal even if his UU's aren't (he also built Zeus and Holy War in Persepolis - that was fun). BTW, he finished HW the turn I researched Military Tradition and he still got Fanatics - possible bug?

Finally got two GL's and saved them for Sipahis. Historical accuracy was uncanny - endless seige of Constantinople finally broke through in 1450 (a little early) and pushed on to Vienna for the Iron Works right on historical schedule. The Silk Road has also been worth it's weight in gold (literally). Great job.

BTW, he finished HW the turn I researched Military Tradition and he still got Fanatics - possible bug?

No, why should it be a bug?


endless seige of Constantinople finally broke through in 1450 (a little early).

Early? It fell in 1453!!!!

its a very fun mod but now im getting a HUGE probleme... how can i get ride off BLACK DEATH... i hate that ****ing BLACK DEATH ... i have 15 city as Rome... and 10 have BLACK DEATH probleme since too long now... im getting piss and im close too give up cause all my unit die !!! its very very very annoying cause i cant stop or i dont know how to stop it... HELP ME please !!!
Is there a way to stop black death... Happinnest is 40% and Science 60%... i try a lot of thing but nothing seem to work...i also have longbowman in each city but they are kill cause of black death...
Sry about my bad english... im french !

Move the units out of cities so you don't get so much damage. It will stop sometime. You just have to suffer :)

You can turn it off in editor in Scenario Preferences->Disasters!->Untick "Permit Plagues" box

Move the units out of cities so you don't get so much damage. It will stop sometime. You just have to suffer :)

You can turn it off in editor in Scenario Preferences->Disasters!->Untick "Permit Plagues" box
Thanks you so much... i was close to commit suicide :lol: I'm going to disable it... I dont like black death at all :sad:

Thanks again :cool:

Some comments about your great mod;

On your map the Azores (in the Atlantic) have a goody hut on them but when the Portugese (re)discovered them in 1427 AD the islands where uninhabited. I say (re)discovered because some records state the islands were discovered by others before that, maybe even by the Carthaginians in 300 BC. In any case no people were there to actually fill the goody hut :)

Another idea would be to add a tile of grassland/plains in Greenland to reflect the Norman (Viking) colony that thrived there between 1300 and 1500 AD until abandoned after climatological changes (sometimes refered to as the little Ice Age).

Although I like the idea that certain terrains cant be settled by the various types of settlers I sometimes find it a bit of a shame the computer players cant get their 'head' around the trick of first clearing a forest(hill) so they can settle the area. For instance, when playing the Chinese I can take my sweet time colonizing Siberia and Russia by clearing various patches.
Perhaps you could come up with a new terrain type reflecting this type of settlement (something between grassland and tundra - which could also be used in the formentioned Greenland case). Another idea would be to allow the upgraded versions of the settler (or perhaps settlers of certain races) to settle additional terrains (like the forresthills for instance).

Just some thoughts for this mod that would help it reflect history in the mentioned areas a bit better.

Thank you bjorn, I'll consider removing that goody hut. I'm afraid the editor doesn't allow the changes to the settlers and the addition of terrain types (apart from LM)

It says on Holy War that Mil Tradition makes it obsolete, so he shouldn't be getting fanatics if I've researched it. I was thinking that Constantinople held until 1492, oh well. BTW, there's a desert near Persepolis that produces two food - is that intentional?

If THEY research MT, they won't get fanatics

I must say I'm enjoying currently this mod in a different fashion.

I have edited the mod to not use the custom map.

Still, I have used a huge archipielago map (with the less sea possible), with ALL civs (31, 32 I think). Even being archi, many islands have united, giving something quite close to a moderate pangea in the middle with several big islands.

The initial slow expansion worked wonders to provoke a more historical and logical expansion, and not the outright cutthroat expansion. I'm playing in Monarch so I have been able to lead (barely) culture, and later power (since I did a big early middle ages attack swallowing two small civs).

Only real problem in not custom maps, is the fact that since resources are more spread out, the luxuries needed for the cultural-aligned wonders specially, the pyramids were not built til 500 AD or so. For some reason, now I have wine, but I don't seem able to build the wine related wonders (I have theology and I'm not able to build the sixtine chapel, for some reason, and nobody has built it yet).

Thanks to the great library I'm leading tech just a bit (by 1 or 2 to my next competitor... there are sooo many...).

Of course, given the way non custom maps are done, some of the 'feel' of natural barriers is lost... I think BBW or using a more rugged approach (using standard in all accounts, iirc for this game) is more appropiate for this. But I would not mind using the BBW approach that wheeled can't enter forest, deserts, etc, either without a road, too.

I have made a random map version of the mod with some changes to adapt the mod behaviour to different sizes.
If you want I can post it, but I wanted to do this only AFTER a decision about elephants addition (so that in case of affermative I would post the updated version of the random map version).
Anybody else have anything to say about the elephants? To do or not to do or to do in a different way?

Rhye, it might be nice if you'd also release a map-pack for use with the mod, containing random-like maps where you the civs are in areas similar to their real-world ones, and resources are spread fairly, equally, and realisticly... Also it would be cool to play the mod on maps of Earth's Pangea and other past/future tactonic formations...

Blasphemous, are the stats good now?

- Rename Horseback Riding to Riding
- Rename Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:40 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons

- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasonsIf you're taking this away, shouldn't they get something added? An attack or defence point?

that's because A.Cavalry and Elephants would have identical stats.

Putting in elephant units will add some flavor so I say go for it. Maybe even reduce the price for the Indian units a bit because their starting area is very poor in shields.

One other thing. Would it be possible to add a fresh water source that would accessible to the carthaginians? As it is, they can't get any decent sized cities until electricity. If they grew a little faster it would change the whole dynamic in southern europe and they could be more of a rival to the romans and spanish.

Sounds good Rhye... But how about go a bit further with the idea, and add a Camels resource and a Camel Rider unit (3.1.2, requires Camels, costs 40s or 30s, ignores movement cost for desert [there is such a cost, right? I keep forgetting.])
Horses aren't the only riding animal around, it makes no sense that you can't build Camel units while you can build Horses and Elephants...

Sounds good Rhye... But how about go a bit further with the idea, and add a Camels resource and a Camel Rider unit (3.1.2, requires Camels, costs 40s or 30s, ignores movement cost for desert [there is such a cost, right? I keep forgetting.])
Horses aren't the only riding animal around, it makes no sense that you can't build Camel units while you can build Horses and Elephants...I agree... you should add camels, maybe for Ottomons and Arabs. But has anyone made a camel unit?

One other thing. Would it be possible to add a fresh water source that would accessible to the carthaginians? As it is, they can't get any decent sized cities until electricity. If they grew a little faster it would change the whole dynamic in southern europe and they could be more of a rival to the romans and spanish. I agree with this. The Carthaginians were major rivals to Rome. I remember that the Romans salted the fields of Carthage, meaning they must have had fertile fields to salt. And that would require irrigation, which would require fresh water.

OK, I'll add a river near Carthage and consequently rebalance the civ.

The camel rider addition is intriguing...but I'd say 2.1.2, same cost as Horseman, available with Riding and ignores desert cost.

Sounds good...
Jalapeno, there's no need to limit it to certain civs... Whoever populates the area with camels will build camels....
Rhye, perhaps Horsemen should upgrade to Camel Riders and then to Knights (etc), so that civs with both Horses and Camels will build Camels rather than Horses (because camels have a small advantage with their desert movement)?
Also there should be a very very small amount of Camels on the map, so they don't get traded too much... Perhaps just one source for each of the middle eastern civs.

Yes I agree to give only the necessary camels and elephants and perhaps reducing the number of horses if there are too many in excess in some areas. (BTW there are more than one camel units)
But I think that they must be out of the upgrade path: a horseman upgrading to camel rider upgrading to knight is a bit odd - I'll leave camel riders and elephants as bonus for the civs who have the resource, without altering too much the flow of the units.

I'd like to know the speed of an army of elephants in march and in change. I'm not sure if they are closer to horsemen or infantry. I'll choose 2 or 1 movement for them from this info I haven't still found in the web.

A quote from animalplanet.com

"Asian elephants can move at surprisingly high speeds of up to 6.8 meters per second or 25 kilometers per hour (15 mph)."

Anyway without a movement of 2 Elephants will be at a heavy disadvantage as they wont be able to withdraw from combat when loosing to infantry units.

I have often heard that when Elephants retreat they cause disasters because they go crazy and crush friendly army

I have often heard that when Elephants retreat they cause disasters because they go crazy and crush friendly army
Which could be represented pretty well by not allowing them to retreat (because they die while retreating, which happens just as well if they don't retreat.)

You are missing my point - War Elephants is the UU for India replacing the Knight. If that is suddenly crippled something else needs to be done to compensate for this or India is without a Knight type unit.

You are missing my point - War Elephants is the UU for India replacing the Knight. If that is suddenly crippled something else needs to be done to compensate for this or India is without a Knight type unit.
...
India would get Knights just like veryone else, and their UU would get new stats and replace the Elephant Archer that comes in with Riding. :rolleyes:

This is simply the BEST mod I've ever played. I've already played as the French, the Persians, and the Chinese. Currently I'm playing the Iroqouis for a challenge. I think there's a definitely need to rebalance N. American and S. American civs. From what I noticed we're always behind in tech if I pick any N. American country. Currently as Iroqouis I'm an entire age behind all the people in Asia and Europe. They have SETI wonder already built and I'm still on Knights. So yeah... I think there's a definitely problem with the European and Asian teching.

Another note about Iroqouis is that the Barbarian hordes arrive A LOT at a time. Its crazy how much you have to fight against. Its so uncomparable to what I was dealing with as a European or Asian civ.

A bug I found is that when the Aztec's border influence goes beyond the Northern mountains, any barbarian horde that arises for the Aztecs appears behind the mountains (around Texas) rather than in front of the mountains (in Aztec border). So there's a massive build up of barbarians since they can't reach the Aztecs. This is problematic when Iroqouis or America trys to expand near that area.

GREAT MOD THOUGH! I hope this helps.

Thank you tshong.
American civs were crippled to make them develop only after the arrival of Europeans. Even a human player will be hampered, but there are still some tricks that can make you stronger.
About the barbarians, I agree that some camps must be removed.

In case you don't know, I'm looking for people for writing small strategy guides - for each civ. As you've played some, would you like to write something (for example the French, as the other civs balancement may change in next patch due to the elephants and camels additions)? It will be posted in the new site

Oh! I'd be honored to submit a few guides. I'll have to do it after finals next week though.

About the American thing, yes I know you crippled the Northern and Southern America's to retain historical accuracy. However, the Europeans and Asians are already using modern tanks and nuke capability at 1870's while I'm using knights. It just seems that the difference is a bit too much for accuracy...

In terms of tricks, I've been playing the Iroqouis for 3 days now. About 7 hours a day in between studies.. Here's the tricks I've tried. I tried to get to the other side of the ocean to trade techs asap, but I'm hampered so much in tech that the oversea civs are already teched too far. I've tried to give free techs to the civs around me so that they can develop techs that are parrallel to mine, so that we can benefit from trading techs, but the problem is ALL the civs around my area tech slow. So, we all can't compete with the European/Asians. If you have any other tricks I'd really appreciate the help.

Oh and about the barbarian camps. Sorry, I didn't mean the camps that are occupied when the map is generated. I mean the barbarian "hordes" that randomly pop up in North America.

Thank you tshong.
American civs were crippled to make them develop only after the arrival of Europeans. Even a human player will be hampered, but there are still some tricks that can make you stronger.
About the barbarians, I agree that some camps must be removed.

In case you don't know, I'm looking for people for writing small strategy guides - for each civ. As you've played some, would you like to write something (for example the French, as the other civs balancement may change in next patch due to the elephants and camels additions)? It will be posted in the new site

Hi Rhye
First iwould like to say... your mod i great...i really like it ...but... I'm canadian and you should replace the Iroquois by Canada and remove some barbarian camp to make it more easier for N.America player. Its hard to deal with 20 barbarian when you only have 5 spearman. They kick my ass everytime i try to move to the north. You should change the rule for the American cause the worker cant clean the bad area and the unit cant climb the mountain. Canada have a good reputation for being able to fight in any situation... mountain or plain it doesnt really matter for canadian soldier.

I'm sure you can do it better.. there is my three ideas.
1. Replace Iroquois by Canadian.
2. Replace Aztec by Mexican and add Brezilian nation.
3. Remove some barabrian camp to the north and the south america.
4. Put more plain into the north america. We have a lot of plain in canada.

I hope it will help and im sorry about my bad english, i'm french-canadian.

Very good work for the other civilization. :goodjob:

I think if any civ should be changed it should be the Americans - replaced perhaps with such civs as the Cherokee or Apache. At the moment they stick out like a sore thumb between all the pre-industrial and pre-european contact civs.

Changes in v2.4 (for now):

- Renamed Horseback Riding to Riding
- Renamed Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:35 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons
- Add Camel Rider (2/1/2, requires Riding, cost:30, ignores desert movement cost)
- Camel a new strategic resource only available in some deserts
- Redistribution of oasis (less), horses (less), elephants (less and far from the coasts to make exportation in Europe more difficult), wines (less), dyes (less), wheat and cattle (more in America)
- Reduced number of barbarian camps in America
- Removed the goody hut in the Azores
- Added a river near Carthage
- Added more plains in Canada
- Tuned Babylonian, Indian, Iroquois, English and Dutch strength
- New floodplains.pcx
- Updated ntp02.pcx (lighter Dutch cities and borders)

Still to do:

Wait if Aluminium converts a Elephant Archer unit better than the one I have
Test if the civ that was changed are balanced
And all the work about the Civilopedia




If anybody doesn't agree with the additions, please tell now.

sounds good, cant wait to dl it :)

some other ideas regarding the map though; the south pacific part of the map could be a bit more precise. one sea square off the coast of eastern Australia theres an island where there shouldnt be any. I can only asume its supposed to be New Caledonia, one of the French colonies in the area. I myself would place it at least 2 squares east of its current location, and seeing its one of the larger (if not largest) pacific islands at least make it 2 or 3 squares in size.

2nd Id remove the 2 Islands west of Chile (San Felix & Juan Fernandez) and replace them with Easter Island (located further west of Chile), seeing Easter Island had great cultural and historical importance and the 2 other islands hardly to none.
Maybe you could add some hills or forests on some of the Pacific Islands so they can actually be settled - although I must admit the jungle is a nice touch.

And 3rd; The Indonesian islands of Sumatra and Java are linked on your map when they shouldnt be. Furthermore Java is one of the most densely populated places on earth, it would be nice to add perhaps an extra land that could be settled (although techincally you already can on the sugar and hills).

And lastly I didnt see the grassland tile in Greenland I posted about earlier, perhaps I could twist your arm? :)

Please tell me if my nitpicking gets annoying :) Id be happy to edit your latest map with these changes. The Pacific (and other islands) is a bit of a hobby of mine, and to be frank the map isnt very precise in this area - but as said Ill be more than happy to send in my take.

Changes in v2.4 (for now):

- Renamed Horseback Riding to Riding
- Renamed Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:35 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons
- Add Camel Rider (2/1/2, requires Riding, cost:30, ignores desert movement cost)
- Camel a new strategic resource only available in some deserts
- Redistribution of oasis (less), horses (less), elephants (less and far from the coasts to make exportation in Europe more difficult), wines (less), dyes (less), wheat and cattle (more in America)
- Reduced number of barbarian camps in America
- Removed the goody hut in the Azores
- Added a river near Carthage
- Added more plains in Canada
- Tuned Babylonian, Indian, Iroquois, English and Dutch strength
- New floodplains.pcx
- Updated ntp02.pcx (lighter Dutch cities and borders)

Still to do:

Wait if Aluminium converts a Elephant Archer unit better than the one I have
Test if the civ that was changed are balanced
And all the work about the Civilopedia




If anybody doesn't agree with the additions, please tell now.

It could be a good idea to rename the Iroquois with Canadian cause look,its an insult for the canadian people to be see as Iroquois. Iroquois is close to indian people and we are closer to american people than indian. We are Democratic in canada and Iroquois are not Democratic.
If you want, i can change it and post the add for the canadian player. I can do a more realistic canada. But if you dont like the idea i will considere to do it only for me cause i really like your mod but i dont like the iroquois and too bad for me, the iroquois take place in Canada. I cant play my own country :cry:
Aztec take the mexican place too... im sure some people will be happy to see Mexican instead of Aztec. Brezilian are missing too... but its not a big deal. ;)

ibcoltscrew, my country doesn't even exist in the game. You should be glad to have the honor of misrepresentation, it's better than no representation at all. :rolleyes:

I think if any civ should be changed it should be the Americans - replaced perhaps with such civs as the Cherokee or Apache. At the moment they stick out like a sore thumb between all the pre-industrial and pre-european contact civs.

The probleme is... if you play as west nation like German, england or French for exemple, you will not be able to contact the american till years 1800 so whats the point if you meet Cherokee or Apache in years 1900... dont you think it will not be realist. Think about the second wolrd war... that was not the Cherokee or the Apache that save France form NAZI... that was the american and the canadian with all the other nation around the world. Its an important part of history that i know can happend in this mod. It already happend to me when ive play America. But that was not realist cause Iroquois had nothing to do with this war cause they was not Democratic like america was. Anyway i know this is just an idea but i want to give a chance to my country to be part of this mod and a lot of French are gracious to Canadian people like England are gracious to American people since the end of WW2.
:D

Is it any better that England comes over to the east coast in the fifteenth century and is greated by America? :rolleyes:

ibcoltscrew, my country doesn't even exist in the game. You should be glad to have the honor of misrepresentation, it's better than no representation at all. :rolleyes:
I dont know what is your country but you should find what is the country that replace yours and fix it. Its important i think to fix the mod to make it the more realistic as possible. I'm not happy cause i hate Bush administration and i dont really like playing with Washington and Lincoln but i dont really have the choice to play with theme cause Iroquois are so bad and Ugly. My other option is to take France and conquer the Iroquois... or play with England and do the same. Its the best way i found to play like we are now and make it realist.

I juste want to make it better you know... this mod is the best mod i have never seen and i know we can make it better for everyone. :king:

Even though I think my country, Israel, totally deserves to be in the game, I don't add it because I have no special desire to play as Israel or the Hebrews. If you really want to play as Canada, then play as Canada... That doesn't make it particularly realistic to repalce the one civ representing pretty much all native north-americans with Canada.

Is it any better that England comes over to the east coast in the fifteenth century and is greated by America? :rolleyes:
Yea but Canada should be there too. Cause canada is a mix of England and France people. We are very different then american people... :rolleyes: Our policy is very different.

Even though I think my country, Israel, totally deserves to be in the game, I don't add it because I have no special desire to play as Israel or the Hebrews. If you really want to play as Canada, then play as Canada... That doesn't make it particularly realistic to repalce the one civ representing pretty much all native north-americans with Canada.
I TOTALLY agree with you... ISRAEL should be there... Very important to Add Israel for me. More improtant to add israel then canada cause you guys are there since a long time and Canada & America are yound country.

Think about the second wolrd war... that was not the Cherokee or the Apache that save France form NAZI... that was the american and the canadian with all the other nation around the world.

It was actually the Russians that saved us from the Nazi's, but you guys saved us from communist oppression :)
Anyways not to dwell on politics, I think Rhye's idea with this mod is for it to follow our earth's history as closely as possible. Therefor I think he did a good job on the Americas; the fact of the matter is that when you play a European civ you do in fact get to America somewhere between 1000-1500 AD, and you meet a bunch of peoples who arent as technologicly advanced as you at that point - as it was in our history.
I agree with Blasphemous that when England or France or whoever cross the Atlantic they should be meeting Native American peeps. Not that Im the best example myself; my people (the Dutch) only started their fight for independance in 1568, but at least they were a people/culture well before that.
Anyways lets not get nasty about it :) I just feel when you play a game covering 6000 years of Earth's history you should'nt focus too much on the last two centuries.

Listen, ibcoltscrew.
I understand that you want your country in, as everybody else. I'm Italian and Italy is important, right? But there isn't any Italian civ as there already is Rome. Furthermore, I'm from Tuscany, so I would see myself Etruscan more than Roman. But Etruria doesn't deserve to be in the top 31 civs.
It wasn't my choice to keep Canada out of the 31 civs but Firaxis', and talking about historical importance, most of the people including me agree with this decision. If we're talking instead of importance today, well, most of non-Americans see Canada as USA's 53rd state, no offence.

I keep working on this mod because most of the people like it and agree with my decisions. Substituting a native american civ with Canada would simply get most of the people of this thread angry.

But this doesn't mean that can't be done.
Here's my solution:

1-Let me finish this patch
2-You can edit the mod how you want, and you could do a good work if you added a leaderhead and civilopedia as well to your package. I'm sure you'll find all these things in these forums.
3-Upload the mod here at CFC and post a link here
4-I'll add a link with description of your mod at the official site "alternative mods" page: http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/alternative.html

Rhye : when you post the 2.34 ? ;) I will test Carthage !

Second advice : the map is too big for my 512 Mo of RAM, i suggest a 140 x 140 World Map :blush:

Bjorn -> Thank you, I'll see what I can do. You know, Pacific ocean is very compressed; I'll check on the atlas if there's something inaccurate. About the greenland, I prefer not to add the grassland, because keeping loading times low means not adding spots for cities unless strictly neccessary.

Lachlan -> Hello, nice to see you :) Last test went pretty well, and soon I'll begin updating the civilopedia. But I'm sorry to say that re-drawing a 140x140 world map would mean restart again a work begun last December :(
As soon as 2.4 is out, I'll complete the "random map mod": the name says it all. It will lose much of historical accuracy, but allow to play in smaller maps without renouncing to the rules changes introduced in this mod

Once the new version is up Ill have a look for you and upload my take. When looking in the atlas it kinda all looks like little specs of land - but some of those specs where more important than others over time. Leave it to me :)

When will 2.4 be up? Im getting quite curious now :)

Listen, ibcoltscrew.
I understand that you want your country in, as everybody else. I'm Italian and Italy is important, right? But there isn't any Italian civ as there already is Rome. Furthermore, I'm from Tuscany, so I would see myself Etruscan more than Roman. But Etruria doesn't deserve to be in the top 31 civs.
It wasn't my choice to keep Canada out of the 31 civs but Firaxis', and talking about historical importance, most of the people including me agree with this decision. If we're talking instead of importance today, well, most of non-Americans see Canada as USA's 53rd state, no offence.

I keep working on this mod because most of the people like it and agree with my decisions. Substituting a native american civ with Canada would simply get most of the people of this thread angry.

But this doesn't mean that can't be done.
Here's my solution:

1-Let me finish this patch
2-You can edit the mod how you want, and you could do a good work if you added a leaderhead and civilopedia as well to your package. I'm sure you'll find all these things in these forums.
3-Upload the mod here at CFC and post a link here
4-I'll add a link with description of your mod at the official site "alternative mods" page: http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/alternative.html

I will change it myself, you gave me the idea to replace Rome for Italy and add Isreal to the game... this is gonna be awesome. Another weird event in the game... its funny to see Roman people that conquer Brazilian territory and make friend with Iroquois as they declare war to american. :crazyeye:

There is the change i want to do.
Change Iroquois / Canada
Change Aztec / Mexican
Change Rome / Italy
Add Israel

If anyone have an idea, please let me know.

Bjorn -> Thank you, I'll see what I can do. You know, Pacific ocean is very compressed; I'll check on the atlas if there's something inaccurate. About the greenland, I prefer not to add the grassland, because keeping loading times low means not adding spots for cities unless strictly neccessary.

Lachlan -> Hello, nice to see you :) Last test went pretty well, and soon I'll begin updating the civilopedia. But I'm sorry to say that re-drawing a 140x140 world map would mean restart again a work begun last December :(
As soon as 2.4 is out, I'll complete the "random map mod": the name says it all. It will lose much of historical accuracy, but allow to play in smaller maps without renouncing to the rules changes introduced in this mod

BUT in editor we can copy and paste the rules, no ?
Have you the button "import rules", just make the then ...

BUT in editor we can copy and paste the rules, no ?
Have you the button "import rules", just make the then ...

yea but youd have to re-draw the entire map. Theres not like a handy resize uption

Yea but Canada should be there too. Cause canada is a mix of England and France people. We are very different then american people... :rolleyes: Our policy is very different.
I never said you're the same as America... I just said it makes just as little sense that America is there since 4000BC, as it does that the Iroquois and Babylonians are around in 2050AD.

I TOTALLY agree with you... ISRAEL should be there... Very important to Add Israel for me. More improtant to add israel then canada cause you guys are there since a long time and Canada & America are yound country.
The point of this mod it to have a historically accurate, realistic world map, while still changing as little as possible (and also having all civs and reducing loading times). Nationalistic sentiments aside, it does this job superbly well, considering the limitated capacity of civ3ConquestsEdit. I find the mod is fun enough without Canada and Israel and all the other countless civilizations taht were left out. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

(I wrote this post some four hours ago but had internet problems and then had to leave... I'mm submitting it anyways as some of it's still relevant.)

I never said you're the same as America... I just said it makes just as little sense that America is there since 4000BC, as it does that the Iroquois and Babylonians are around in 2050AD.


The point of this mod it to have a historically accurate, realistic world map, while still changing as little as possible (and also having all civs and reducing loading times). Nationalistic sentiments aside, it does this job superbly well, considering the limitated capacity of civ3ConquestsEdit. I find the mod is fun enough without Canada and Israel and all the other countless civilizations taht were left out. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

(I wrote this post some four hours ago but had internet problems and then had to leave... I'mm submitting it anyways as some of it's still relevant.)
I'm not going to start a war against you on this question. I know what you mean on the loading time but i dont have fun to play with Iroquois and i have a fast computer so the loading was not a probleme for me. I was asking if its were possible to replace Iroquois with Canada and now this is getting too far for a simple question. I did it and its almost done. I actually test it and its fun. I have remove some barbarian camp and add more plains to the center of canada.
I've replace Iroquois with Canada,Aztec with mexican and Roman with Italian with the name of town and all but without leader head cause i dont consider that is important... it change nothing to the gameplay but change a lot for me when i'm playing with Iroquois(Canadian). Its easier for american people cause i have remove a lot of barbarian and remove some mountain to be able to build a BIG country.

Maybe this is not realist for you but for me its more realist then playing with Iroquois, dealing with roman and being the baddest civilisation on earth. I'm sure people from america will appreciate these modifications. It's personnal you know.
I call this mod Rhye's of America
I will post the ZIP as soon as the mod will be well balanced and fun for american and canadian people. I want to be sure that Canadian and american dont have any advantage on other civilisation.

Sry if someone dont like the idea but i just want to give something fun for the america.

End of thread for me.

sounds nice, but I think I'll stick to good ol' RoC...
As I said, having America around in 4000BC is just as bad as - if not worse than - having the Iroquoi Nation still around in the twenty-first century.

ibcoltscrew - if you want to do it now anyway, do it, but I suggested you to wait for the release of the next patch to benefit of the new additions and fixes

ibcoltscrew - if you want to do it now anyway, do it, but I suggested you to wait for the release of the next patch to benefit of the new additions and fixes
Ya thats what im doing :D Im just testing it to be ready as soon as you release your update, i know you already do a VERY good job... and im really exciting about the update... i was addict :crazyeye: three month ago you know... i lost all interest to this game and now im addict again cause of YOU :lol: ... Should i say thx... Now my girlfriend dont like you cause im losing more then 12 hours a day playing your mod :mischief: :lol: but like i told her... not my fault :lol:

Now my girlfriend dont like you cause im losing more then 12 hours a day playing your mod :mischief: :lol: but like i told her... not my fault :lol:

LOL! :lol:

BUT in editor we can copy and paste the rules, no ?
Have you the button "import rules", just make the then ...

It's not that easy.
This is where I've left the random map project, before starting working for the new patch:

- New world size settings that will fit 8, 14, 20, 26 and 31 civs in the map in the same way as standard Rhye's of Civilization (same number of land squares per civ)
- Standard player data: the human player will have a worker at the beginning
- Removed special Hussar and Cavarly for the American civs
- Ancient settler cost raised to 160; Medieval settler cost raised to 220; Worker cost raised to 30
- Removed all the invisible resources and the resources that were appearing later
- Re-enabled resources disappearance probability
- There won't be LM terrains
- Mining cost increased to 26; irrigating cost raised to 24; roads cost increased to 10
- Eruption period back to 5000

and still to work on the timeline...

Rhye, how do I 'program' certain rescources (bonus and strategic) to pop up as the game progesses (for instance like it does on your map in the Americas). Im playing around with a map of Europe in your mod/rules, but the French/English/etc go just as fast as the earlier, mediteranian civs and I want to slow them down a bit.

btw, is this what you mean when you say a civ is 'crippled' to a certain age/year, or is there more involved?

You must create other resources with the same attributes (icon, stats, etc.) but with different prerequisite. This also applies to invisible resources, very very useful, with no icon and a prerequisite.

I have gave up in updating the terrain pics in civilopedia. If I did that, then I had to update buildings, worker actions, wonders, city improvements because they have the standard terrain in the background. So I won't do anything of this.
Right now I'm waiting for Aluminium's Elephant Archer

I found on the web that the fastest human may reach 36 km/h, elephant 40 km/h and horse 70 km/h.
These are top speeds, I would like to know average speed instead. If anybody know something, let me know.

"Walking at a normal pace an elephant covers about 2 to 4 miles and hour but they can reach 24 miles an hour at full speed." -Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephants)
Horses' speeds are different between breeds I think, and generally in ancient times Horses were smaller and slower.
But basically the game sees Horses as speed 2 or 3 depending on the Horses' training and equipment and Humans as 1 or 2 depending on training and equipment. If Elephants are faster than Humans, then they should have a speed of 2.

I found on the web that the fastest human may reach 36 km/h, elephant 40 km/h and horse 70 km/h.
These are top speeds, I would like to know average speed instead. If anybody know something, let me know.

An average human can run at 16km/h and walk around 4km/h.

For the elephant Blasphemous is right but i found on the internet that it can reach 6km/h when hes walking and 40km/h when hes charging ennemy (attack) Huge difference :crazyeye:

For the horse, i wiil try to give you the best information as i can. There is three speed for a horse... Slow(mean walk) 6-7km/h Medium(Between walk and full run) 15km/h and High speed (Full run) 30km/h. This is the real fact for an average horse. The racing horse can reach 60-70km/h but i dont think the Army use this kind of horse LOL.

One more thing... the Arabian Horse run faster then the other horses... for exemple, instead of 30km/h for the English/French/whatever horse... this is 45km/h for the Arabian horse.

If anyone have more information i will be glad to hear about that. I think its interesting to know that kind of thing for this kind of game. :cool:

Thank you.
An update:

Changes in v2.4 until now:

- Renamed Horseback Riding to Riding
- Renamed Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:35 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons
- Add Camel Rider (2/1/2, requires Riding, cost:25, ignores desert movement cost)
- Camel a new strategic resource only available in some deserts
- Redistribution of oasis (less), horses (less), elephants (less and far from the coasts to make exportation in Europe more difficult), wines (less), dyes (less), wheat and cattle (more in America)
- Reduced number of barbarian camps in America
- Removed the goody hut in the Azores
- Added a river near Carthage
- Redrawn some islands in the Pacific
- Added more plains in Canada
- Tuned Babylonian, Viking, Indian, Iroquois, Incan, Chinese, Korean, English and Dutch strength
- Tuned Japanese, Viking, Carthaginian, Incan and Arabian research speed
- Removed Lugdunum, as it's Lyon (double city)
- Slightly changed Egyptian city order
- Updated floodplains.pcx and marsh.pcx
- Updated ntp02.pcx (lighter Dutch cities and borders)
- Fixed the wrong Ottoman Civilopedia entry

Still to do:

Wait for Aluminium's unit
Fix default and fidget animations
Update civilopedia with the new units and resources

Thats sound very good. Can't wait anymore for the update... :cry: :D Pretty funny cause im waiting this update like i wait for some great game like doom3 :lol:

Still to do:

Wait for Aluminium's unit
Fix default and fidget animations
Update civilopedia with the new units and resources

I just want to let you know... i'm a graphic designer (working with photoshop since 1999) and if you need any help for the mod... ask and i will be happy to do something for you.

Ive been playing around with one of Mecney's maps of Europe and Rhye's mod this week - Ive edited the map & rules to try and have this game follow the general flow of history of the region. At one point I might make a proper mod where Ill replace all the modern European civs (French, Dutch, English) with the historical barbarian tribes to make things more accurate.
I thought Id post it here in this thread (with Rhyes permission hopefully), seeing Ive basicly nicked all his stuff :) Nothing fancy realy, but it might give some of you a few good games.

Rhye; Im playing the Vikings at the moment and I think they could be a bit stronger or have a few tiles in their starting location improved. Im now at 1300 AD and halfway done researching feudalism on the regent level - whereas their golden age was around 1000 AD when they sacked many a coastal city in Europe, for which they I assume need their unique unit the berserker (with Invention). (and no, its not because Im crap :) )

Update:

- Renamed Horseback Riding to Riding
- Renamed Ivory to Elephants
- Add Elephant Archer available with Riding (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:50)
- War Elephant available with Riding only for India (3/2/2, +1hp, requires Elephants, cost:35 (as Indian elephants were smaller and easier to tame))
- Elephants a strategy resource instead of luxury, as it is required for some units
- Remove HP bonus for Ancient Cavalry for balancing reasons
- Add Camel Rider (2/1/2, requires Riding, cost:25, ignores desert movement cost)
- Camel a new strategic resource only available in some deserts
- Redistribution of oasis (less), horses (less), elephants (less and far from the coasts to make exportation in Europe more difficult), wines (less), dyes (less), wheat and cattle (more in America)
- Reduced number of barbarian camps in America, moved a camp by the Caspius Sea, added a camp in southern France
- Removed the goody hut in the Azores
- Added a couple of rivers near Carthage
- Redrawn some islands in the Pacific and in Indonesia
- Added more plains in Canada
- Tuned Babylonian, Viking, Indian, Iroquois, Incan, Chinese, Korean, English and Dutch strength
- Tuned Japanese, Viking, Carthaginian, Incan and Arabian research speed
- Removed Lugdunum, as it's Lyon (double city)
- Slightly changed Egyptian city order
- Updated floodplains.pcx and marsh.pcx
- Updated ntp02.pcx (lighter Dutch cities and borders)
- Updated rice civilopedia icons
- Updated luxuryicon.pcx and units32.pcx, due to the changes
- Fixed the wrong Ottoman Civilopedia entry
- Updated civilopedia with the new units and resources complete with icons and description



To do:

- Fix camel default animation
- Wait for sunday, when Aluminium will fix Elephant Archer animations (thank you ibco. I've already found an help :) If I need something I'll let you know)

Bjorn, why don't you use invisible resources? They can be very useful in balancing and crippling for a short time. You can delete them if you don't use them.

News Flash: new discovery (only partially tongue in cheek)
If you have scouts available to all civs, an ideal advantage for expanionist civs is to give them cheaper settlers (new units, 1/4 off shield price, no other changes). Adding reduced pop cost seems to give them terrifying early REX capability.

For Portugal (Earth map), I gave them the reduced-cost settler only for Medieval Settler period. Other civs could have similar restrictions.

A direct consequence of your idea is another idea: I think that dividing the civs in 3 groups and each civ has a discount on one settler type is a GREAT idea.
It would add further realism, colonization of Siberia would be slower, maybe there could even be quicker loading times...but there are some problems:

1) The civs with discount on modern settlers (America, Russia, Germany and perhaps Japan) could suffer and remain weak, while early advantages may be more important. This could be solved balancing the costs:
Now it is:
120/3
190/4
300/5
could become:
discount -> 110/3; no discount -> 130/3
discount -> 170/4; no discount -> 210/4
discount -> 260/5; no discount -> 340/5
But this may not be enough. Many tests are needed, and tests require time.
2) These tests mean altering the balancement that there is now, which with 2.4 is nearly perfect in my point of view
3) I'm not sure about which group some civs belong


So, I'll try. If it works and balancement is an easy task I may add this, otherwise I'll stick with standard version

Rhye

couple of things

I was playing 2.32 (thought I had upgraded but hadn't) and found that when I would take one city, the civ would collapse as if I had taken all of them. Has this been corrected in 2.33 or reported at all? didn't see it in the posts or in the 2.33 lists. something I did maybe?

Did you misspell the cavalry on purpose for an americans?

I am playing as America and while I was one of those who *****ed about the disadvantages earlier, I have had great success with them. The key is to block off the iriqous early - they only have three access points down into the continent. block them with warriors early on, stay at peace and they are severly crippled. Additionaly, staying focused on softer research helps - pottery, alaphabet, etc...

anyway, thanks again for the mod.

zagyg, if civs collapse when you capture a single city, that means you're playing with Elimination enabled.

EDIT: Rhye, the problem with making cheaper settlers in different ages for different civs is that settlers are far, far more valuable in the first half of the game than in the second half. If you want the Modern Settler to be useful, you've got to make the earlier settlers more expensive so space if left over for later settlement. I think the current balance is okay.
Also, we mustn't underestimate the power of exponential growth. If you make some civs have cheaper settlers early on, that's pretty much a guarantee for their success due to the way the game is built.

zagyg ->
The mispell wasn't my intention. it is fixed now.
I'm glad to see that someone can handle a crippled civ. You could write a strategy play wo play with Americans

I have tested the settlers thing and I see no changes at all.
I won't complicate the mod if I don't see results.

Bjorn, why don't you use invisible resources? They can be very useful in balancing and crippling for a short time. You can delete them if you don't use them.

Ive just been playing around with the map, nothing fancy realy. I added a few of those rescources that pop up later. If I do do any work on it Id like to make it more authentic by adding all the civs from the same timeframe; Romans, Greeks, Carthaginians, but also Celts, Scythians, Iberians, etc (all the tribes from the classical era to make it historically sound). Ive also got several ideas for extra Unique units (something you spoke of yourself), but I havent realy checked the forums yet for any graphix that would fit.

Rhye, I just had an idea...
Many resources that are in the game are often synthesised these days... Perhaps you can have synthesised resources appear with later techs, so that you don't need (for instance) natural rubber from a certain point and on. The synthesised resources should look like wee labs perhaps with an icon on them saying what they produce, and they should be placed so that countries that really synthesise or have synthesised the resource will recieve once copy (so they can't sell the synthesised stuff without conquering other countries' sources).
Then you make it so units that use synthesisable resources will upgrade to an identical unit with a space at the end of the name that requires the synthesised resource instead of the regular one. Perhaps it could even be a tad cheaper, if the free resource is not enough.
*Returns three hours later to see he forgot to submit the post. Bleh.*

syntethic stuff has only been around since the 50s or something which relates to just a few game turns. What I would like to see is countries going to war for rescources because their homeland doesnt produce sufficient to get by (Germany/Russia ww2, USA/Iraq present). At the moment civ3 only offers building as many units as you like with a certain rescource or none at all.

If you want to reduce the amount of certain units being produced in relation to the amount of resources you have then make those units automatically build from buildings only, and then make the resource a prerequisite for that building AND make it so that the required resource(s) must be within city radius also. That would make grabbing resources a lot more important

The real question is how the AI would handle a setup like that of course.

syntethic stuff has only been around since the 50s or something which relates to just a few game turns.
Not entirely true. Saltpeter was no longer needed for the manufacturing gunpowder after a cert