The fact is that you can build in 1950 frigates, privateers, explorers, elephants, etc.
The trick consists setting an upgrade unit for that unit, but make it not upgradeable, so that it simply becomes obsolete.
I tried that on elephants and camels and it worked. I would make those units obsolete with tanks (cavalry and hussar), fighters (explorer) and destroyer (frigate and privateer)

About the balancement, Rome is a civ that is strong at the beginning but loses importance to northern civs, that's the way it should be. Anyway when it is AI v AI it's balanced: no one prevails. Have you tried to take the Germans? Isn't that Rome and France destroy you? :lol:

Have you tried to take the Germans? Isn't that Rome and France destroy you? :lol:
Yes i do but i'ts too easy with the german. With the roman its fun at the beginning but its getting annoying after 1300 ac. Look like i'm the target for every civ for the next 500 years... Sometime it's pathetic... i have like 15 ennemy and a trade embargo from everyone cause of France and Germany. BTW, France never win a war in real life, i dont think they deserve good attack unit... more defense unit. It's not funny to get destroy by france... Germany i can understand cause there were the most advance civilization when Hitler was there but being destroy by France... don't you think its weird.

Anyway, i've give up for Roman, i'm playing with Spain now and it's hard but not unbalanced. I also want to try every civilization... My best is for sure the Iroquois with the change you made for them (more plain) and also the fact that they are close to the america who is always Gracious to me when i use them. america and Iroquois seem to be realist in this game cause it's easy to be friend with america... like in real life... we have the less protected border on earth.

Rhye will your next mod have new units again? And do you base your choice on the animated units available on this forum? Like I mentioned earlier it might be a fun idea for an early modern age camel unit (i cant think of anything good later on with elephants :) ) and Ive heard you speak about new unique units for civs. No doubt everyone here would be able to come up with some good ideas.

so far i've tried the 2.1 version and have recently started a 2.4 game.
I've noticed that this newer version is much, much slower than the older one. Why??

And what are the actual changes from 2.1->2.4 ? It would be nice if Rhye's homepage had a version-history, so we'd be able to see what has happened, and if the evident improvements are worth the slower game-turns.

Lastly: why cant jungles be cut down, or marshes dried out - ever?? its happening in the real world...?? why not just make it possible in modern age??

Salute to Rhye!

SmiteMeister

coz then youd be able to build more cities which in turn causes the gameturns to load longer.
Also youd no longer have the cool natural barriers Rhye has created. Some games all the civs are remarkebly in the positions they should be.

Rhye, I think the horse units should be made obsolete by Infantry.
Mounted units were useless with the advent of the first tanks, that much is true. The thing is that these first tanks were a direct answer to the difficulty of trench warfare, which is represented by Infantry in Civ3. The "Tank" unit in the game is more like a WWII tank than an early WWI tank.
A tribe with Infantry should no longer have any cavalry units, because infantry represents the kind of infantry that fights in trenches, and horses simply don't fit into the whole trench warfare scene, on either side of the battle. Anyone with this kind of infantry would no longer use horses in battle.

I want to know if its possible to add a new Age like Futur Age. With new unit and base on the tech we have these day. I dont mean a new mod... exactly the same except you add a new age. For exemple... A new age where robot become available and high tech unit too.

I know there is some mod like that already done but it could be cool to add this kind of mod with this one.

Rhye's mod is kind of Expansion pack for me and i think it could be cool to extend it.

I want to know if its possible to add a new Age like Futur Age. With new unit and base on the tech we have these day. I dont mean a new mod... exactly the same except you add a new age. For exemple... A new age where robot become available and high tech unit too.

I know there is some mod like that already done but it could be cool to add this kind of mod with this one.

Rhye's mod is kind of Expansion pack for me and i think it could be cool to extend it.
No new ages can be added in Civ3, yet it's always possible to add a fake age that looks seperated graphically, inside the last age... But this is a mod aims at history, not fantasy. :rolleyes:

Actually, until tanks were developed in the late years of the First World War there wasnt any other way to attack then charge the trenches with infantry or cavalry. Horses were still used well into the second world war to draw carts and move artillery to the battlefield. When the Germans invaded Poland in 1939 the Polish army consisted of mostly cavalry units which had try and fend of the German Panzers (although even the German army consisted mostly of infantry). I would suggest Cavalry become obsolete when the Motorised Transport tech is discovered to reflect many of the senseless battles and slaughter that took place in WW1

I agree with Blasphemous that Infantry is a good stopping point for horse units. Having to use infantry on the offensive while guarding your irreplaceable cavalry stocks would add more flavor to the game.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the cavalry unit moved out of the game entirely and hussars getting a 3rd movement point. 5 Attack strength hussars against rifleman in mid sized cities will slow down the pace of conquest and force people to use more combined arms.

Part of the charm of this mod is that the rules changes work against the usual conquest or domination strategies that are so easy to pull off in unmodded games. Making it just a tad harder to fight large wars in the late middle/mid industrial age fits in well I think.

Actually, until tanks were developed in the late years of the First World War there wasnt any other way to attack then charge the trenches with infantry or cavalry. Horses were still used well into the second world war to draw carts and move artillery to the battlefield. When the Germans invaded Poland in 1939 the Polish army consisted of mostly cavalry units which had try and fend of the German Panzers (although even the German army consisted mostly of infantry). I would suggest Cavalry become obsolete when the Motorised Transport tech is discovered to reflect many of the senseless battles and slaughter that took place in WW1
You've only served to affirm my point - armed gun cavalry was only used by backwards countries after WWI and its trench warfare. It would be much closer to reality to make horses obsolete in combat with the advent of Infantry (which represents WWI technology) than with the advent of WWII tanks.
Oh, and the first tanks were developed in the first half of WWI - 1916, to be exact. :mischief:
Anyway, just cause they're obsolete won't make them disappear... It just means they won't be produced anymore. Leftover units will still be sent into battle blindly to die for a higher cause.

- It seems that you all agree with rendering them obsolete...that is the important thing. A bunch of turns doesn't make difference. I said tanks because if you choose Infantry then you'll have some turns in which you won't be able to build units with more than 1 movement point.

- I will not add any future techs or units for the same reason I dislike mods with dinos: the focus is on history. Ibcoltscrew, you were going to do an alternative mod, right? You already have a place in the new site :) If you like future stuff, you could add it to your version ;)

- Slower 2.4? Very strange, There were no major changes to civs expansion since patch 2.0 to 2.1. Instead it seemed to me that since 2.3 industrial age was faster because I postponed communication trading to Electricity and so postponed World Wars and massive pop-ups. Did you play 2.1 with Chieftain or Warlord level? Did you play 2.4 with Deity or Sid? That makes a lot of difference - cost changes. I'll post the history of changes until now.

I quite like 2.4. I've tried out the Japanese (Emperor) until the middle ages. I liked the new Samurai, it worked well. So well, in fact, that I decided to quit the game (conquered china to easy).

Now I'm playing Arabia on demigod - tough! :p but still possible. It's ca 1000 ad and the entire european continent has declared war on me (the crusades all over again!) and I', desperately researcing Chivalry and building hordes of horsemen for upgrading... we'll se if I survive.

I noted one thing though - the mesopotamian cities have virtually no production, just floodplains (zero shields) and desert (zero shields). I'll try them out in the future, but it looks very difficult.

Now it seems that I have to unveil my new plans....everything has changed.

1) I'll fix those upgrades and release 2.41, with no other addition

2) As usual you can count on support in fixing bugs and tuning

3) When the fixes are over (I hope with 2.41) I'll release the random map version. It's already done, it's just waiting

4) If R8FTX makes a French leaderhead I'll release a version with modified leader (Napoleon or Louis XIV), but this doesn't depend on me

5) Lots of possibilities for alternative version - Israel or Khmer instead of Sumeria for example. But I don't want to spend much time on those.

6) I'm creating a new map: 134x130. Lachlan will be happy :) This will be used to create a LITE version of the mod, this time for Vanilla and PTW. It's time to send v1.0 to its old age pension! I have considered releasing a Conquests version, but that map simply hasn't enough room to contain i.e. both Spain and Portugal

- My second UU project is abandoned. I have spent an impressive amount of time to put 2.4 together, and considered how much time fixing units and finding civilopedia text take, I won't do it for 31 units. After all, an Elephant could have been a second Carthaginian UU. Now it's no more needed!

Thank you for the info, Iztvan. I'll see if I can do something about the unbalanced civs. Please do not start a game with mesopotamians before the new patch.

If you haven't deleted your saves, can you send some of them to my mail? (gabrit@portalis.it)

- It seems that you all agree with rendering them obsolete...that is the important thing. A bunch of turns doesn't make difference. I said tanks because if you choose Infantry then you'll have some turns in which you won't be able to build units with more than 1 movement point.
This reflects history very well! In WWI alot of the fighting was on a stationary line where trench warfare commenced, exactly because tanks were not yet fully developed and cavalry was completely obsolete. In WWII tanks and artillery were developed and so the line shifted around more.

Rhye :) ?

You will create a smaller map than habitual one ?

Compatible with C3C ?

THANK YOU :goodjob:

But remember that i have Conquest 1.22 ;)

Id be happy to come up with units and civilclopia texts for new unique units if you want. Maybe you shouldnt want to have all 31 civs have a 2nd UU, but just add 5-10 to add flavor to the game (Longboat for the Vikings, Fire Tirime for the Greeks, stuff like that). I wouldnt know where to start with the gfx part, but maybe theres gfx on these forums who can help you out (Or allow you to use their units in your mod).

Will the work on this 'lite mods' mean 2.41 will be one of the last updates for this mod? :(

How about instead of giving every single civ two UUs, you give most civs a single, extra-good UU, and some civs two weaker UUs...
Just an idea. :)

Let me explain better...
I'll keep supporting the basic version, but sooner (I hope) or later the mod won't need more patches.
After that I'll work on lite version of Vanilla and PTW and/or alternate versions. I'll be more lazy when working on these, because they have a lower priority, but if a new bug comes out or a new idea is simply irresistable I'll patch the basic mod and update all the versions. Instead, if I'm not sure of an addition I may put it in an alternate version, even if I don't have enough material (civilopedia fox example).
The fact I was trying to say is that I won't release any official "Expansion pack" as I said last month, because I can't find the time to fix units and find pedia for 31 units.

About the small map, it will be for now only for Vanilla and PTW. As I've said, there isn't enough room for both Babylon and Sumeria, Spain and Portugal, etc.: it contains only 16 civs. But never say never: if I see that people like the map and there are many requests for a C3C lite version, I may take it in consideration.

An example: a mod with 31 static leaderheads (pictures, portraits, photos) instead of 3D animated leaderheads. I prefer them because I want that historical feeling and can't stand Gandhi dressed like an European capitalist. But most people doesn't agree with me, so it is a good reason to put it in an alternate version.

1. I know I'm not alone in saying I can and would like to help out with the expansion pack, if pedia is the problem. (And even if it's not the only problem.)
2. Why not release the small map for C3C with a low number of civs as max and just have people pick and choose themselves which civs to include?

I also vote for a smaller worldmap that supports C3C. currently playing as Austria, in the 1600's, I wait an average of 5-6 minutes (maybe more) between each turns. Can't play it anymore, way too slow for me :(

Oh yes Rhye ! :mischief:

Make the small map supporting C3C ;)

I don't use PTW anymore

You should create an ancient an modern version like in PTW

I'll see if I can...the map contains 16 civs, in case of PTW I can leave the choice to the user without division Ancient/Modern. But in case of Conquests the problem is that some starting locations are too close to each other. If a user selects Spain and Portugal, it could be a problem. Anyway before talking I must try. This is in the "To do" list after other things I mentioned earlier.

The differences with the new mountains and plateaus (below, with less green)

I think that looks realy good :) Can you make a screenshot of a lone mountain in the desert and in the arctic? See what that looks like

The green will always be there...it can't be avoided. But there is much less because some of the square is covered by more mountains

well it looks better, especially the large grouping of mountains and platues. I say it goes in the next update :)

The update was done, when I received Lachlan's savegame.
He said he was very slow (it was late '800) and in fact it was. So I had to change some weights (some costs), but to solve the problem once for all, I had the idea: what about shrinking the timeline? I have managed to reduce the whole game from 500 to 400. (The standard game is 450) This means that 2050AD will correspond to turn 400; 1700 AD will correspond to the turn which was corresponding to about '500. The difference between 2.4 and earlier versions will begin from 650AD: the timeline will go slightly faster.
This colud be considered "cheating" but would finally reduce loading times in late game, and when you give up a game early, then it won't be that early.
In Lachlan savegame the game would be past 2000; the late 800 will correspond to loading times you have in mid-late '600.
Of course, I'll edit EVERY technology cost again, to fit the new settings.
What do you think? I'll soon start editing the techs!

Here's an idea in order to reduce the green base of mountains:
I moved the border line of the tundra-grassland tiles (xtgc.pcx), so it's now under the mountains. This is the standard civ terrain, but I guess the same could be applied to yours. I have yet to modify the mountain and hill tiles, and that seems to be the tricky part.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tundra.jpg

This reflects history very well! In WWI alot of the fighting was on a stationary line where trench warfare commenced, exactly because tanks were not yet fully developed and cavalry was completely obsolete. In WWII tanks and artillery were developed and so the line shifted around more.

Sure, Cavalry was useless on the western front during WW1. It was still used (and units were raised = built) on the eastern front and during the Russian civil war and in the middle east. And that was not because of backwardness, the open fronts made good recon units necessary, and with luck Cavalry could ambush and pick of fatigued or surpriced infantry.

Cavalry going obsolete when Tank (i.e. ww2 tank, not ww1 tank) is more correct.

I don't think shortening the game is a good idea. When playing some of the low powered civs like Zulu or Maya it can take most of the game just to build your empire into something that has an outside shot at winning. Wiping out 140 turns would gimp these civs even further.

Even if late game turns take a bit longer there is still nowhere near the downtime between turns you get in a normal game.

Iztvan, did any nations that were already deploying WWI-style infantry actually continue to use mounted units en masse?
Perhaps what we need is to have a light cavalry unit that comes in with Infantry and serves a very short term between WWI infantry and WWII tanks. The stats could be perhaps 7.4.1, all terrain as roads, and should cost a bit more than Cavalry.
This way at least we wouldn't have century-old units running around when tanks are popping up...
(Even though I still think Infantry represents the stage at which tanks first appeared and obsoleted mounted units.)

I don't know how many games you all have finished with this mod reaching 2050AD, and what computer you have. I have received many times advices about increasing loading times from 1600 on.
Probably most of you didn't notice that the timeline of this mod was already shortened to 500 turns. Aiming to 400 turns would mean getting rid of pointless 1752, 1754, 1756, 1758 :sleep: In my opinion a standard civ game is too long in some eras.
Time will slip a little faster, and you won't notice because the research status will always be corresponding. I don't think that building empires with weaker civs will be a problem, I prefer rebalance them but give primary importance to game speed.
Of course, if all this doesn't work, I have the old version still here.
If this works....it will be the best thing I've done since double&invisible resources

Cutting down 100 turns seems a bit much... Perhaps cut it down by a bit less? Perhaps by twenty or fifty turns?

___________

Iztvan, did any nations that were already deploying WWI-style infantry actually continue to use mounted units en masse?
Perhaps what we need is to have a light cavalry unit that comes in with Infantry and serves a very short term between WWI infantry and WWII tanks. The stats could be perhaps 7.4.1, all terrain as roads, and should cost a bit more than Cavalry.
This way at least we wouldn't have century-old units running around when tanks are popping up...
(Even though I still think Infantry represents the stage at which tanks first appeared and obsoleted mounted units.)

Russia (Red & White), Austria-Hungary & Germany used them on the eastern front, where the Infantry wasn't "stacks of death". It was used a lot during the Russian civil war. But perhaps a "mounted infantry" would be more appropriate.

rendermad -> how did you do that exactly? can you post the xtgc?

-> Rhye

The save i mailed you is useless, since I modded it just slightly... :( sorry, tried to mail you, but your mailbox was full.

rendermad -> how did you do that exactly? can you post the xtgc?

Let me explain with examples:
Two original corner tiles
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tg2.jpg

Two modified tiles
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tg1.jpg

T means tundra, G grassland. The blue lines represent the actual border of the tiles.
I just moved the border from the tundra tiles to the grassland ones and filled the space with tundra.
BTW, I've only modified the grassland-tundra corners, but the g-t-coast tiles need to be changed as well.

Here's the file:
xtgc.pcx (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/xtgc.pcx)

Update status:

- New plateau and mountains graphics (green borders now can be barely seen), new pollution graphics (brighter)
- Fixed Elephant Archer and Camel Rider "Available to" list
- Elephant Archer and Camel Rider obsolete (but not upgradeable) with Cavalry (first gunpowder mounted unit, first unit with 3 movement)
- Frigate and Privateer obsolete with Combustion; Explorer obsolete with Advanced Flight; Cavalry and Hussar obsolete with Motorized Transport
- Horses no more available in deserts
- Camel appearance = 160
- Replaced a LM forest in Greece with a hill and in Mongolia with a forest
- Added a sugar in Madeira and an oil in Iraq
- Redrawn some pacific islands and added two southern islands with the help of bjorn
- Redrawn Philippines
- Added some mountains and plateaus in order to make Incan escape more difficult
- Added some rivers to separate some islands from the main land
- Tuned Babylonian, Sumerian, Japanese, Viking, Russian, Persian, American, French and German strength
- Tuned Japanese and Viking research speed
- Worker cost now 30 shields, 2 food
- Spearman, Pikeman, Medieval Infantry, Longbowman, Musketman, Flintlock Infantry, Rifleman, Hoplite, Impi, Immortal, Numidian Mercenary, Swiss Mercenary, Samurai, Musketeer, Grentzer cost increased by 5 (except Spearman, by 4) because they were over-produced units
- Moved a couple of barbarian camps
- Tuned plague grace period (500) and variance (40)
- New timeline: 20/50, 25/40, 42/25, 97/20, 58/10, 72/5, 34/2. Now the game develops in 400 turns and loading times are much reduced in Industrial and Modern Age.
- Holy War cost reduced to 30; Knigths Templar cost reduced to 36
- Almost every tech cost has changed to fit the new timeline, because of the shrinking. The changes consist in -2 to -14. The new ranges can be found in the readme

Update status:
...
Do you know when its going to be available ?

I would like to know... Why is the start location moving when i modify one of theme... :( After adding Canada and removing Iroquois, i have move the start location of canada 1 scare to the north... after this move, i notice that Mongol was at the England location and some other start location was wrong... like spain, Scandinavi, etc. :crazyeye:

What's wrong ? :cry:

I've change rome for Italian (no probleme) Change Aztec for Mexican (no probleme too) but if i touch the location of Canada (Iroquois), England disapper and Mongol take the England start location !!! Same thing for Spain.
Maybe i should just rename Iroquois and modify it instead of adding Canada and removing Iroquois ??? That's what i did for Rome and everything was fine.

I dont think i will modifiy the rule ... it's already well done. :goodjob: Canada will be most like america and i will take a look for the leader's head... if i cant find a good one for canada, i will simply use Lincoln. Some other thing will be change for personnal use like Adding even more plain in canada and make sure the worker can clean anywhere in modern time. Lock Canada and America to make sure they never declar war to each other.

Thanks if you can help !

Why the change to worker cost Rhye? That's going to really hurt some of the civs who start in bad terrain.

ibcoltscrew -> the patch will be released with the new timeline only if I am satisfied. If in a couple of days I can't find a good solution, I'll post the 2.41 without that change.
Remember that testing a whole game from 4000BC to 2050AD takes a whole day for me - my computer is quite slow.
About your problem, I probably know what it is - did you uncheck "custom player data"?

horton -> In some savegames I noticed with the help of the PowerBar that there are too many workers. Far too much. Don't worry about some civs - I have already improved Babylonian and Sumerian starting location - I'm going to do the same with Zulu and India. I'm sure of 2 population, not sure about raising from 20 to 30 shields.

ibcoltscrew -> the patch will be released with the new timeline only if I am satisfied. If in a couple of days I can't find a good solution, I'll post the 2.41 without that change.
Remember that testing a whole game from 4000BC to 2050AD takes a whole day for me - my computer is quite slow.

If i add a timeline, it's not going to be soon, I will first try to change 3 civilization and will see how i could add a timeline and unit to the mod.

About your problem, I probably know what it is - did you uncheck "custom player data"?.
No ? :confused:

"- Added a sugar in Madeira "

plz note though that sugar was cultivated in Madeira only after its discovery in the Americas (so in the 1500s). If you want to be precise it should pop up after say navigation.

Don't whether this has been mentioned before but the horses strategic resource in England doesn't work. It appears in the list as a resource but England can't build any mounted units until it trades for horses. Also seen Egyptian chariots moving through jungle, is that right?

Another thought.... have you ever considered making tanks/modern armour/mechanized infantry NOT air transportable? I always think it gives the player a hugh advantage against the AI when invading if you can build an airfield and fly dozens of units half way round the world, it just shouldn't be possible. Invasions should always be from naval transporters. (Think about US equipment sent to Iraq, waiting in ships off Turkish coast.) As a counter-balance you could keep building Infantry after researching computers and allow Infantry to be air transportable. What do you think?

bjorn -> sugar cane wasn't discovered in America.
It was imported by Arabs from India and far east and during Arabian invasion it was spread to the Mediterranean. After the discovery of America, it was brought there, together with cattle, wheat and wines. The sugar added in Madeira pops up in the early middle ages.

asclepius -> OH NO!!!! The horses in England are the American type!!!! I'm really sorry!!! I'll correct this at once!!!!
About the tanks...we already discussed this possibilites and decided to leave it as it is, because it can be done in certain numbers. If you're interested, the discussion is about 10 pages behind...

rendermad -> thank you, but I already made some changes to the mountains and the plateaus, covering a part of the green. If I reduce it again, it could be completely covered and the effect of the connection would vanish, causing an ugly effect, like the one in the first screenshot you posted

Cheers Rhye! England with no horses is quite a challenge!

Couldn't find the thread about the tanks but there are more than 40 pages now :) Anyway that was just a small gripe. I like the fact that you can't research Infantry until after Steel, but never understood why they become obsolete. Not all units are fully mechanized and helecopters are useless without non-wheeled units. I just can't get my head around tanks flying from England to Australia though!

Just want to add this mod makes Civ a far better game, and I voted for can't play without it!

Another thought.... have you ever considered making tanks/modern armour/mechanized infantry NOT air transportable? I always think it gives the player a hugh advantage against the AI when invading if you can build an airfield and fly dozens of units half way round the world, it just shouldn't be possible. Invasions should always be from naval transporters. (Think about US equipment sent to Iraq, waiting in ships off Turkish coast.) As a counter-balance you could keep building Infantry after researching computers and allow Infantry to be air transportable. What do you think?


Couldn't find the thread about the tanks but there are more than 40 pages now :) Anyway that was just a small gripe.

You can thank me for that design arguement. Given the time frame of a turn in the Modern Era (Post 1950 AD which was 2 years at the time). Why do you think it is more realistic to load up transports and spend that much time preparing a D-Day type invasion? The USA currently has the capacity to move units by air in rapid response if necessary. Whether they excercise that option or not is another topic to be debated.

Im playing America now and i noticed theres a horse in the southern plains of the US. Is this a good idea seeing horses were brought to the Americas by the Europeans?

Bug report (minor): The persian immortal has a spear, but when he fights he swings a sword.

sorry, when is the random map version going to be available?

You can thank me for that design arguement. Given the time frame of a turn in the Modern Era (Post 1950 AD which was 2 years at the time). Why do you think it is more realistic to load up transports and spend that much time preparing a D-Day type invasion? The USA currently has the capacity to move units by air in rapid response if necessary. Whether they excercise that option or not is another topic to be debated.

Good point about the number of turns needed to ship units, hadn't really thought about that as a problem. Maybe the modern era movement rates for naval units should be higher???

As for the real world, I'm sorry but not even the USA has the capacity to mount an invasion (of Civ standards) by air. Nearly all heavy equipment is ship transported, that's why I gave Iraq as an example. Even the Antonov 124 (worlds largest cargo plane) can only just carry 3 Apache helicopters, let alone MBT's. That is why it's unrealistic to air transport, what in game terms must be, an entire armoured division.

bjorn -> horses will appear there when America discovers miliraty tradition, about in 1600-1700-, coherent with what happened: after some time their spreading was unstoppable.

laxpimpj -> Some days after the release of the new patch. The new patch is ready for tonight or tomorrow.

Iztvan -> Have you some problems with the installation? I'll check, but the folders seem OK

Asclepius -> thank you

Iztvan -> You're right,- there's a missing "s" in the ini file. Thank you

rhye, the horses appeared well before I discovered militairy tradition; in fact I think it happened just after I got the wheel from the Iriqouis in 950-ish AD.

My excuses.
I don't know why, but it seems that horses has messed up. 2 of the 5 horses in the Americas were standard.

rhye, the horses appeared well before I discovered militairy tradition; in fact I think it happened just after I got the wheel from the Iriqouis in 950-ish AD.
I agree ... same for me. I can see and produce Horse before Military tradition with Usa.

I'm sorry...

Rhye, perhaps to avoid this confusion you could rename the american brand of horses a bit differently? Maybe teh simple "American Horses" would work... Just to avoid this confusion and to make it look less buggy when you can trade "Horses " for "Horses".
About modern movement rates, I've got to agree. No modern naval unit takes as long as a year to circle the world, so for game balance reasons I suggest this:
(All numbers refer to movement only!)
Ironclad: 4
Sub: 6
Nuke Sub: 9
Destroyer: 15
Cruiser: 11
AEGIS: 14
Battleship: 7
Carrier: 14
Transport: 8
And to avoid making naval bombardment over-powered now that boats get everywhere quicker, lower all naval bombard rates a bit.

You should also add a modern troop carrier with better combat capablities than the old one, including an aa rate, and with a capacity of 8 units and movement of 12. Then remove airlift capabilities for all mechanized units, as this is simply not feasible to do in large enough amounts to count. Leave airlift on infantry units so they become more handy, and add perhaps a GI or Grunt or somesuch modern infantry unit that is airliftable and has okay combat capability and a cheap price.
All in all you'll get a more realistic picture of modern warfare...
And the naval movement rates are negotiable... Perhaps they should even be quicker... Heck, I was basing them on the original stats... You probably boosted them yourself already, right Rhye? RIGHT?! :mad:

LOL movements are boosted since 2.0
But if no modern naval unit take one year to circle the world....a 140 movement would be needed, if considering the times when 1 turn = 1 year. So, I already boosted them, but it won't make any difference about unit transport. Also, don't ask me to add other unit, I won't do that and I'm enough busy with the changes i'm making in this patch.

About the Americas, that's not a bad idea calling "American horses" and "American wines". But I'd like to know the opinion of many of you before thinking of a change.

Rhye, can you state all the current naval movement stats so I can see if I like them?
I know 140 move is not feasible and bad for balance, and so I think most modern naval units should at least be able to cross most oceans in one turn.
And about adding the unit, it's not rush but I think it's important for adding in the future...

The stats are in the readme.

About the tests: the scaling of the timeline went well. I'm sure I'll have a definitive version tomorrow.
Now, I'd like to hear some more opinions (I had only one) about this:
pros: much reduced loading times in late game; everything's still the same: the timeline fits the tech progress, no civ will be advantage or disadvantaged compared to the old settings, the human player won't notice that the game is 100 turns shorter. In my opinion, speaking of modern units balancement is non-sense if some games are given up because of too much loading time and modern times aren't reached.
cons: the only I could find is that after discovery of America in late 1400, AI tends to wait some more to colonize it: probably the reason is that it wants to complete colonization of Africa before entering the new world. Some more cities in South America will develop in 1700 and 1800.

[QUOTE=Rhye]
Now, I'd like to hear some more opinions (I had only one) about this:QUOTE]

After a couple test, i found that playing at chieftain (easier) level make the mod perfect for the timeline... but if you play at Sid (hardest) level or the four last hardest difficulty, you will see some civilization (Like germany and France) with Destroyer and Tank unit around 1850-1900.

Is there a way to fix it ?

*Playing chieftain level is too easy and Sid level make it unreal and impossible.

Rhye, perhaps to avoid this confusion you could rename the american brand of horses a bit differently? Maybe teh simple "American Horses" would work... Just to avoid this confusion and to make it look less buggy when you can trade "Horses " for "Horses".
About modern movement rates, I've got to agree. No modern naval unit takes as long as a year to circle the world, so for game balance reasons I suggest this:
(All numbers refer to movement only!)
Ironclad: 4
Sub: 6
Nuke Sub: 9
Destroyer: 15
Cruiser: 11
AEGIS: 14
Battleship: 7
Carrier: 14
Transport: 8
And to avoid making naval bombardment over-powered now that boats get everywhere quicker, lower all naval bombard rates a bit.

You should also add a modern troop carrier with better combat capablities than the old one, including an aa rate, and with a capacity of 8 units and movement of 12. Then remove airlift capabilities for all mechanized units, as this is simply not feasible to do in large enough amounts to count. Leave airlift on infantry units so they become more handy, and add perhaps a GI or Grunt or somesuch modern infantry unit that is airliftable and has okay combat capability and a cheap price.
All in all you'll get a more realistic picture of modern warfare...
And the naval movement rates are negotiable... Perhaps they should even be quicker... Heck, I was basing them on the original stats... You probably boosted them yourself already, right Rhye? RIGHT?! :mad:


Amen! Guess what, I agree with all of that. But it is Rhye's mod so....

ibcoltscrew -> chieftain, warlord, deity and sid are difficulty levels not supported by this mod. I wrote it in the readme.
The timeline fits the emperor level. Tanks should appear shortly after 1900.
But I still have no reply about my question. I want to know it, I'd like to post the patch today.

I must find a solution for rubber - no one seems to build Infantry or Tanks - often cities in Africa and America have small borders and can't reach the spots where rubber is. And then they reach rubber, often a road is missing. When there's a road, there isn't an harbor.
What can I do?

oh - I'm thinking of removing again the requisite of saltpeter for riflemam. Well, the fact that Cavalry would keep needing saltpeter is a bit odd, but I don't want to see new founded cities with spearman in 1900, there's a need for some units with no resources. Otherwise I could remove the requisite to Cossacks and Cavalry too. But that would leave Sipahi alone - the only mounted unit in the game which requires saltpeter (remember - Hussars have a sword).

About rubber - my question is - were European nations able to build an army without colonizing Africa? Did America have colonies where to take rubber for building tanks?

The civilopedia speaks of natural rubber coming from Americas, useful for balls etc. Then speaks of synthetic rubber, pruduced in 19th Century and indipendent from colonies, useful for ships (?)
Are we sure that this resource is accurate? Isn't it more likely to be a luxury?
Well, completely removing it would cause guerrilla to be useless. It would need the long time ago promoted changes (not wheeled, all terrain as roads)...

In the meantime I added some forests in Africa: the spots for cities are reduced, to better reflect poor density of population and help massive colonization of Americas

As said im playing the Americans atm and Ive noticed something weird: Ive defeated the Iriquois, the Aztecs and Maya, but instead of being destroyed a city magicly pops up somewhere on the map. The first 2 suddenly had a city in South America, and the latter one in Alaska. However when I traded maps I couldnt find any eveidence of a trail of exploration there leading me to believe they just spawned there.

isn't this "respawn AI players" option?

current progress:

- New plateau and mountains graphics (green borders now can be barely seen), new pollution graphics (brighter)
- Fixed Elephant Archer and Camel Rider "Available to" list
- Elephant Archer and Camel Rider obsolete (but not upgradeable) with Cavalry (first gunpowder mounted unit, first unit with 3 movement)
- Frigate and Privateer obsolete with Combustion; Explorer obsolete with Advanced Flight; Cavalry and Hussar obsolete with Motorized Transport
- Horses no more available in deserts
- Camel appearance = 160
- Replaced some LM forests (in Greece, Mongolia and Norway)
- Added a sugar in Madeira and an oil in Iraq
- Redrawn some pacific islands and added two southern islands with the help of bjorn
- Redrawn Philippines
- Added some mountains and plateaus in Andes in order to make Incan escape more difficult
- Added some rivers to separate some islands from the main land
- Worker cost now 20 shields, 2 food
- Spearman, Pikeman, Medieval Infantry, Longbowman, Musketman, Flintlock Infantry, Rifleman, Hoplite, Impi, Immortal, Numidian Mercenary, Swiss Mercenary, Samurai, Musketeer, Grentzer cost increased by 5 (except Spearman, by 4) because they were over-produced units
- Moved a couple of barbarian camps
- Tuned plague grace period (500) and variance (40)
- Added more sea in the Atlantic
- Tuned Babylonian, Sumerian, Japanese, Russian, French, German, Viking, Persian, American strength
- Tuned Japanese, Viking, German, Indian, Portuguese, Russian and Dutch research speed
- Fixed a major mistake: English now have standard horses instead of the American type; in America there are only American horses
- New timeline: 40/50, 50/25, 87/20, 41/10, 45/8, 33/4, 54/2. Now the game develops in 400 turns and loading times are much reduced in Industrial and Modern Age.
- Holy War cost reduced to 32; Knigths Templar cost reduced to 36; Sun Tzu's Art of War cost reduced to 45; Shakespeare's Theathre cost reduced to 40; Smith's trading company reduced to 50; Theory of Evolution reduced to 56; the united Nations reduced to 80; Apollo Program; Battlefield Medicine and Strategic Missile Defense cost reduced to 30
- Almost every tech cost has changed to fit the new timeline, because of the shrinking. The changes consist in -2 to -14. The new ranges can be found in the readme
- Minimum research time decreased to 5
- Added some forests in Africa: the spots for cities are reduced, to better reflect poor density of population and help massive colonization of Americas
- Moved a goody hut, spices and sugar one square farther from Persian cities (now they're more likely to be under Indian territory
- Added two barbarian camps in Indonesia
- Major changes to the map: thinner Africa and eastern Europe; larger Greenland
- Redrawn Zimbabwe, South Africa, French Atlantic Coast, Baltic region, Scandinavia, Greece
- Moved Russian starting location a square SW




I'd like to know something about:
- rubber, industrial units and luxury
- rifleman, cavalry and gunpowder
- colonization of America
(see my posts above and in the previous page)

The civilopedia speaks of natural rubber coming from Americas, useful for balls etc. Then speaks of synthetic rubber, pruduced in 19th Century and indipendent from colonies, useful for ships (?)
Are we sure that this resource is accurate? Isn't it more likely to be a luxury?
Well, completely removing it would cause guerrilla to be useless. It would need the long time ago promoted changes (not wheeled, all terrain as roads)...

I'd like to know something about:
- rubber, industrial units and luxury
- rifleman, cavalry and gunpowder
- colonization of America


This is a complicated question. rubber was definately a strategic resource during ww1 & ww2, but not as essential as oil. An option that has been discused in these forums earlier is to allow tanks to be built without rubber, but be more expensive, ie having "Tank" and "Rubberless Tank" (but with cooler name) with the same stats but where "Rubberless Tank" costs +25% or +50% to build.
Maybe use this guy (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89041) as "Infantry" and the ordinary infantry as "Rubberless infantry"?

Rubber, like Saltpeter, is a strategical resource that doesn't feal 100% right. Perhaps the best way to use them could be for allowing a treasure-generating rubberplant similar to those in the Colonial conquest for tobacco. Saltpeter should probably be renamed just Salt and done as a luxury resource. I think some of the luxuries & bonus resources should be swapped around. Tobacco and Sugar should be luxuries, and two of the current luxuries changed to bonus or strategic instead. This would make international colonisation & trade more desirable. Currently Africa gets colonised early, because:
1) It's close to europa
2) It's vacant. The ethiopeans don't have enough time to colonize western africa
3) It has Gems, a luxury resource the europeans are missing, and later has rubber (the ai knows about this)
This could be fixed with:
1) A west-african civilization (replacing who? Mayas? Greeks? Byzantines?)
2) Tobacco & Sugar as luxury resources in America.


I'd like to see something done about this: When you reach Military tradition, you have Flintlock infantry & Hussars, which feals very 18th centruy. But you still have Medieval infantry, Longbows & Knights hanging around. How about allowing Knights to upgrade to Hussars, and putting something between Medinf/longbows and Guerilla, perhaps some kind of Guard Infantry (6/3/1) . And then move up Guerilla (with better stats) to Rocketry (or some other modern tech) and have a Partisan at Replaceable parts.

Rhye - you have done changes. Are you still interested in a savegame from 2.4? It features a Conquistador army in nortern america 1400ad. :king:

ibcoltscrew -> chieftain, warlord, deity and sid are difficulty levels not supported by this mod. I wrote it in the readme.
The timeline fits the emperor level. Tanks should appear shortly after 1900.
But I still have no reply about my question. I want to know it, I'd like to post the patch today.
I'm not going to start an other chieftain game !!! ;) thanks for telling me. I should read the readme file :p
My last chieftain game , i won by score (50300 --> High score) in 1921. :lol:

From the civilpedia it seems that synthetic rubber was the strategic resource, because it allowed indipendence from colonies. Natural rubber wasn't essential, and was used since native americans, not only from repleaceable parts.
What do you mean with trasure generating? A luxury?

Id say leave rubber the way it is and where it is now. I like the fact that when playing a European civ I have to plan ahead and found a few colonies in Africa so that Ill have rubber in the industrial age (along with some of the luxuries Africa has like gems). If I was able to build tanks another way i probably wouldnt even found colonies which is unlike what happened in Earths/Europes history.

From the civilpedia it seems that synthetic rubber was the strategic resource, because it allowed indipendence from colonies. Natural rubber wasn't essential, and was used since native americans, not only from repleaceable parts.
What do you mean with trasure generating? A luxury?

Have you played the conquests? They used the following mechanic: Make a biulding called "sugar plant" (or "tobacco plant" or whatever). Make it require the Sugar resource within city radius (similar to Iron Works). Make it produce a unit every X rounds (like Knights Templar). make this unit a treasure. It has to be carried by another unit, can be captured by the enemy. It's only use is to be disbanded in the capital for XXX gold.

So the player builds (supercorrupt, otherwise useless) cities in the colonies, rush-builds the sugarplant, and then has a transport hanging around to pick up the treasure-unit, transport it back home, and ka-ching - loads of cash!
And his enemies start to look at his colonies with greedy eyes...

I mean, what components of tanks or infantry equipment require rubber?

Edit: I see you've (Iztvan) edited your post. Yes, I'm still interested in savegames. I'll use them to make screenshots for the site

I like the idea of tobacco and/or sugar being made luxuries, again it would be another motivator for me to found colonies. Africa does get colonised a bit too early - in History it was from the 1450s onward (small trading posts) because people were afraid of what they might find down south. Obviously such a psychological barrier is hard to recreate in civ. Having said that theres only so many places in Africa a player can settle, and the AI isnt that extremely quick about it. Again Id say keep it as is :)

Tobacco and sugar won't be made luxuries because there are duplicates. Tobacco-to-tobacco and sugar-to-sugar-to-sugar trades would happen.

I mean, what components of tanks or infantry equipment require rubber?

Edit: I see you've (Iztvan) edited your post. Yes, I'm still interested in savegames. I'll use them to make screenshots for the site

I'm not sure. The way I understand it, Rubber get's to fill the role of a lot of materials, you could almost rename it "rare minerals" or something.

One way of handling the importance of rubber, would be to bring back barracks going obsolete, as it (annoyingly) did in earlier editions of Civ. What if barracks go obsolete with Replaceable parts, and the new barracks require rubber, but none of the troops? Then anyone would be able to build Infantry, but only those with barracks could upgrade their Riflemen or build veteran infantry?

When I started editing, mine was the last post. When I was finished, the discussion was on a new page! :lol:

Id say leave rubber the way it is and where it is now. I like the fact that when playing a European civ I have to plan ahead and found a few colonies in Africa so that Ill have rubber in the industrial age (along with some of the luxuries Africa has like gems). If I was able to build tanks another way i probably wouldnt even found colonies which is unlike what happened in Earths/Europes history.
Yes, I have always liked the idea that a mid-1900's Germany totally dependent on the resources of its contiguous empire could still build the best infantry and tank units. :p

Regarding previous units, I still say post-musketman units should not require saltpeter, and medieval units should not require iron. These resources represent new techniques/technologies which became readily available later on, by being able to synthesize the ingredients (saltpeter) or successfully using lower-grade ores/better refining techniques (iron).

OTOH, it's just a game. :eek:

Yes, it's just a game. But we are Civfanatics! :p

But...one more question: is it only in my games or it has happened in your games too, that AI doesn't build Infantry and Tanks, and american colonies are defended by spearmen?

Jaybe ->so, together with the rifleman, would you remove saltpeter from cavalry, too?

Jaybe ->so, together with the rifleman, would you remove saltpeter from cavalry, too?
In my mods cavalry hasn't needed saltpeter (nor pikes, iron) since shortly after C3C came out.
In Civ3, cavalry need saltpeter because cavalry are a prime offensive unit, and offensive units require resources per the Civ3 design philosophy.

BTW, in case I had not already mentioned it: I have knights appearing before pikes, as pikes were a development to counter the appearance of knights. Knights at monotheism, pikes/med.inf. at chivalry.

I had some ideas, I hope you like them.
To finally eradicate obsolete units:

1) riflemen again without saltpeter (so that it can be built in colonies far from the capital), but leave cavalry with saltpeter
2) replace upgrades:
longbowman->guerrilla with longbowman->rifleman;
med.infantry ->guerrilla with med.infantry->rifleman;
berserk->guerrilla with berserk->marine (they haven't bombard ability, and both can make anph.attakcs)
rifleman->infantry with rifleman->guerrilla
flintlock inf.->rifleman with flintlock inf->infantry
this would fill the large gap between medieval units and guerrilla with an early industrial guerilla-type (no resources): rifleman; and connect the resources line flintlock inf. and infantry

oh, by the way, the timeline problems are now gone. So if you all give me the OK to the last changes I proposed, I'll post it tonight when I'm back home. No changes to the rubber

I had some ideas, I hope you like them.
To finally eradicate obsolete units:

1) riflemen again without saltpeter (so that it can be built in colonies far from the capital), but leave cavalry with saltpeter
2) replace upgrades:
longbowman->guerrilla with longbowman->rifleman;
med.infantry ->guerrilla with med.infantry->rifleman;
berserk->guerrilla with berserk->marine (they haven't bombard ability, and both can make anph.attakcs)
rifleman->infantry with rifleman->guerrilla
flintlock inf.->rifleman with flintlock inf->infantry
this would fill the large gap between medieval units and guerrilla with an early industrial guerilla-type (no resources): rifleman; and connect the resources line flintlock inf. and infantry
Excellent idea, go ahead!

...To finally eradicate obsolete units:

flintlock inf.->rifleman with flintlock inf->infantry....

I don't think this makes any sense. Flintlock should still upgrade to Rifleman before Infantry come along. Otherwise Flintlock will still be around for too long after Nationalism period and the step flintlock > infantry is too large. I like the other ideas though.

Yes, it's just a game. But we are Civfanatics! :p

But...one more question: is it only in my games or it has happened in your games too, that AI doesn't build Infantry and Tanks, and american colonies are defended by spearmen?


In my game, most of the time the american are defended by spearman or pikeman like you says but about the tanks, everything seem to be ok, they use it like i do.

Make upgrade Rhye :)

I want test your new timeline

I had some ideas, I hope you like them.
To finally eradicate obsolete units:

1) riflemen again without saltpeter (so that it can be built in colonies far from the capital), but leave cavalry with saltpeter
100% :goodjob:


2) replace upgrades:
longbowman->guerrilla with longbowman->rifleman;
med.infantry ->guerrilla with med.infantry->rifleman;
berserk->guerrilla with berserk->marine (they haven't bombard ability, and both can make anph.attakcs)
rifleman->infantry with rifleman->guerrilla
flintlock inf.->rifleman with flintlock inf->infantry
this would fill the large gap between medieval units and guerrilla with an early industrial guerilla-type (no resources): rifleman; and connect the resources line flintlock inf. and infantry

:) & :(

Why?

:) because we won't have "Longbows & Railroads" as in normal Civ.

:( for three reasons:
1) Longbow & Medinf both have "Attack" strategy ticked, while rifleman is a defensive unit. So the ai will be using riflemen upgraded from them in a defensive role.
2) We'll still have Flintlock infantry at the same time as Riflemen. Much better than earlier, but still ahistorical.
3) Berserks will still be riding railroad to the port, embarking on oil- or steamdriven transports and attacking coastal cities defended by riflemen and infantry... :cry: Speaking as a skandinavian, I realy think berserkers should come earlier, as a uu version of the swordsman or medieval infantry.

Each solution has pros and cons.
vote please for:

1) everything as it is: already balanced by Firaxis, but with "Longbows & Railroads": a great gap between medieval foot units and guerrilla

2) the changes i said: there would be no gap and there would still be 2 lines of upgrades: one with resource units and the other with free units. The concept is OK: med.infantry, riflemen and guerrilla in common have the poor training. Problems? Flintlock and Riflemen would coexists (but, this happened for some time, with the first victories of French republic). I think there is no problem with attack and defense tags, because rifleman is both O & D

3) all the changes above except the swap flintock-to-infantry. Still no "Longbows & Railroads". Cons? The offensive-to-defensive is always there (but it's not a problem because they are O and D), and the major problem is: there would be only one unit upgrades line. So, everything would converge to riflemen, which would lead to infantry. No unit upgrades to guerrilla.


My vote is 2. Sooner you vote, sooner I post the patch (which IMO deserves the 2.5 title: it contains lots of fixes, new timeline, major changes to the map made with MapTweaker, revision of units obsolescence)

Berserks will still be riding railroad to the port, embarking on oil- or steamdriven transports and attacking coastal cities defended by riflemen and infantry... :cry: Speaking as a skandinavian, I realy think berserkers should come earlier, as a uu version of the swordsman or medieval infantry.

I think that too. Attack 6 is too much and they have nothing to do with longbowmen. They should replace Med. Inf with a 5/2/1 anphibious. But that wouldn't solve their presence in industrial times.

Each solution has pros and cons.
vote please for:
...
I would vote 3, 1, with 2 being last.
I personally have longbows upgrade to flintlocks (but flintlocks with 5 attack) with the lines converging. Riflemen might be mediocre in training (American civil war) but they could also be highly trained (Franco-Prussian war of 1870's).

:D But pay me no mind because I'm out on the fringe: my last two v2.3 games had cheaper defensive units with standard civ infantry-type attack strengths, and standard-cost (or expensive) offensive infantry-types with attack strengths equal or almost-equal to defense (e.g, spears 2.2, rifles 6.6, infantry 9.10). Fortified units get 50% defense bonus. ... And there is no artillery -- it's a player cheat.

I think that too. Attack 6 is too much and they have nothing to do with longbowmen. They should replace Med. Inf with a 5/2/1 anphibious. But that wouldn't solve their presence in industrial times.

Do that, and I might actually be able to bring myself to playing the Scandinavians. Imagine that, someone who won't play his own Civ because the uu is wrong... :p

In my opinion: go ahead with option "2". We'll try it out and see if we like it. It has the least changes to the original game, and keeps the design philosophy of two unit lines for infantry.

In the long run I'd probably prefer an expanded version of "3", keeping offensive and defencive infantry during the flintlock era with:
DEF: Line infantry, 3/5/1
OFF: Grenadiers, 5/3/1

My vote is for 2....
I think it fixes more broken logic than it creates.
Rhye, are there any plans underway for a RoC 3.0?
If there is, I would love to help any way I can. :D

Three votes for 2, one vote for 3 until now.

Please when you vote, specify if you want or not the changes to the berserk: 5/2/1, +10 cost, replaces Med. Inf., requires iron

Version 3.0? We're upgrading step-by-step....but surely there will be a 3.0 with Civ4 next year!

At this rate, you'll quickly run out of version numbers... I would advise using three digits after the decimal point from 2.500 and on. Big upgrades should get a leap on the second digit after, small ones get the third, and every time you get to 2.#99 you increase the first digit.

So, do you consider this a big or small upgrade? 2.5 or 2.45?

BTW, vote yes/no for editing the berserk

Three votes for 2, one vote for 3 until now.

Please when you vote, specify if you want or not the changes to the berserk: 5/2/1, +10 cost, replaces Med. Inf., requires iron

Version 3.0? We're upgrading step-by-step....but surely there will be a 3.0 with Civ4 next year!

Berserk change - yes please!
Or perhaps 4/2/1 amphibious is enough? attack 5 vs pikes def of 3 is powerful.

I must say tho when I had a go at the Vikings by the time I had a few berserkers (keeping in mind the Vikings start among mountains and hills) all the civs around me had musketmen, and the Dutch huge amounts of Swiss Mercenaries. I was able to take 1 Dutch town which cost me nearly all my berserkers.
Id like to see it moved earlier in the techtree, perhaps losing 1 attack point or making it more expensive. I wouldnt handicap it too much though, its not that extremely good.

that's it: 5/2/1, +10 cost, replaces Med. Inf., requires iron


vote: 1,2,3?

that's it: 5/2/1, +10 cost, replaces Med. Inf., requires iron

vote: 1,2,3?
Vote #2 :cool:

Enjoy the patch :cool:

I'll update the site now

Iztvan, your skills are impressive! I tried to raise difficulty levels in an older patch, but it seems useless. You can reach industrial age in 1500...what other I need to say? Try a crippled civ...


The site is now updated except the screenshots section. Coming soon.

So, do you consider this a big or small upgrade? 2.5 or 2.45?

BTW, vote yes/no for editing the berserk
Looks to me like this should be 2.500, and that you should move Berserk to replace Med. Inf or even Swords (4.2.1 and replaces Med Inf as well), since generally speaking the level of technology needed for a Berserker is not the same level that is needed for a foot knight. This would give Scandinavia a very powerful early advantage that would be eliminated very quickly once the other Europeans get far enough ahead.

Iztvan, your skills are impressive! I tried to raise difficulty levels in an older patch, but it seems useless. You can reach industrial age in 1500...what other I need to say? Try a crippled civ...

Try a crippled civ? But I love european history! :sad: ;)

The new berserker feels right... go ahead with that.

Greek Hoplites are once again victorious....should I boost them? :)

i didnt thouroughly read all the posts about upgrading, but is an archer supposed to upgrade to a marine?

Greek Hoplites are once again victorious....should I boost them? :)
Well, you can fix the game's inaccuracy and give them an improved offense stat so it makes a dash of historical sense... :rolleyes:

blasphemous - >I was joking, I was refering to their victory in Euro 2004 tonight :)

bjorn -> only berserks upgrade to marines. Because they are amphibious

I know Rhye... Just picking up the opportunity to mention this discrepancy.
But then again, it's all but dwarfed in comparison with the idea of offensive archers. >_>

Greek Hoplites are once again victorious....should I boost them? :)
Yeah, you should! they should have a def of min. 50! :D :mischief:

u might want to check the stats then, Im playing the Romans and according to the civilclopia my archers upgrade to marines. Also Im in the middle ages and Im able to build both archers and longbowarchers.

You are right. I'm sorry again. I'm fixing it now

Done. Please re-download the patch. You and anyone who has downloaded it today!!!!

Done. Please re-download the patch. You and anyone who has downloaded it today!!!!

To late! Already trying out the new Scandinavians!

The upgrade path got screwed up I guess, My swordsmen won't upgrade to Medieval infantry. But Berserkers kick ass, even at 50 shields + Iron for 5/2/1. :viking:

Swordsmen to Med. Infantry? They should upgrade, except if you have berserks. I could put them into the path, but they would upgrade to riflemen like med.inf, samurai and longbowman, instead of to marine

When you add the random map ?

im not too sure about this new time line and the more expensive workers (population cost wise). Im in 1700 AD now with the Romans and I havent conquered that much yet. Atm Im fighting the Russians (Germans are still there) and I havent even begun yet on nothern Africa. Tech is decently synched with the year though, researching metallurgy now (although some civs had that well before 1700)
The worker cost is a bit annoying though as it takes many turns to get going and when conquering cities in say the balkans its hard for those towns to build workers (and all the others are still at work in spain and france from the BC years).
Anyways just some thoughts

I just finish a game and a diplomacy victory (97% against France :lol: ) and that new timeline is great Rhye. I won in 1930... only me and the german had the tanks. I notice one probleme... No one declar war !!! :confused: ... A peace game from the begining to the end.

Good work on the timeline :goodjob:

I suggest make workers and slaves UNdisbandable :)

Swordsmen to Med. Infantry? They should upgrade, except if you have berserks. I could put them into the path, but they would upgrade to riflemen like med.inf, samurai and longbowman, instead of to marine
My Archers upgraded to Berserks, My Swordsmen didn't upgrade at all. Didn't you decide to make it Warrior -> Swordsman -> Berserker -> Marine for ha Scandinavians?

Do I need to put berserks back into the chain?
I'm refering to the last version I posted, and I've said: now who has vikings has the chain interrupted, and berserks upgrading to marines. Otherwise, I could put them back into the swordsmen-med.inf chain, but they will upgrade to riflemen.

No one declares war has nothing to do with the timeline: I didn't edit anything. Check your AI aggression level.

Is the game faster now?

Do I need to put berserks back into the chain?
I'm refering to the last version I posted, and I've said: now who has vikings has the chain interrupted, and berserks upgrading to marines. Otherwise, I could put them back into the swordsmen-med.inf chain, but they will upgrade to riflemen.
I realy don't mind which chain they are in, but if they are in the archer chanín (as in 2.45), the swordsmen should definately upgrade to Medinf, so that the Scandinavian isn't stuck with Swordsmen.

I'd prefer it though, to have Berserker as a replacement for the Medif, with ordinary archer -> Longbow -> etc for the Scandinavians.

... No one declar war !!! :confused: ... A peace game from the begining to the end.
Sometimes a civ game can turn out that way, and no adjustment to aggression level is required for it to happen. OTOH, I have seen peaceful games turn into total war just by lighting a spark -- starting a war myself.

I suggest make workers and slaves UNdisbandable :)
Assuming this doesn't have undesirable side-effects (such as messing up the AI usage of them), this is an OUTSTANDING idea! Forces more player responsibility for his actions, although it also prohibits the AI from slaughtering your workers.

No one declares war has nothing to do with the timeline: I didn't edit anything. Check your AI aggression level.

Is the game faster now?
Yes the game is real faster on my AthlonXP2000+ ... now i'm waiting like 1 minute instead of 5 minutes.

Another thing i notice... About the iroquois... they need more room to build city. The maximum city i saw from the Iroquois was 4. The american take all the room and they can't build cause of forest, mountain and barbarian (the AI doesnt clean forest to build city) Maybe you could do something to help them.

About the "no ones declar war", i know it has nothing to do with the timeline but it's kind of weird to play in a world of peace :lol: . The agression level is "normal". Second time it happend to me... maybe it's the way i play... i'm a builder and i don't like to declar war (except against Furious civ without a good reason to be furious... i'm playing more like a peace keeper.) Yea sometime i get pissoff :mad: and declar war for fun :lol: but it's not usual. It happend when it's late and when i'm real high.

So fun !!! Can't stop playing your mod... God help me !!! :crazyeye:

Sometimes a civ game can turn out that way, and no adjustment to aggression level is required for it to happen. OTOH, I have seen peaceful games turn into total war just by lighting a spark -- starting a war myself.
Bah. There is always a Civ in my way. My expansion is always at the cost of others, from knight times till the End! :evil: Before knight, it depends on AI, specially when I was Chinese (now I only play Port: there isn't hunger that ends in too much of it ;) )

Rhye can you take a look at this thread ...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92435
I think this unit look great and it could be an upgrade for the cavalry. It's just an idea :p ... but i think it could be interesting to keep the horse and having a modern unit at the same time. something like a Modern Horseman. Let me know your opinion. :scan:

Iztvan: YOU'RE PLAYING WITH THE NON-FIXED 2.45. You said that it was too late, remember? In the version you have I didn't update archers upgrade (switching from berserks, moved to med.inf. replacement, to longbowmen).
In the fixes 2.45 everything's allright, except from the fact that berserks are out of the chain (will upgrade to marines). The viking player, as he doesn't have med.inf will upgrade its swordsmen to riflemen.

ibcoltscrew-> It sounds like a WWI scout. It could be the upgrading of the hussar, or of the explorer. But is it really needed?

lachlan-> Please, give me some time! You had the last patch yesterday, and still ask for the random map? Remember, I changed the timeline mostly with the aim of helping your (and mine) computers.
By the way, it seems that I've won my bet :beer: The game is 5 times faster in modern age, in ibcoltscrew's opinion!

jaybe -> what's the difference? Please tell me, I don't know the benefits of being able of disbanding workers, or not being able.

bjorn -> you'll get used to expensive workers, just like settlers. It was done so that this won't happen again:

ibcoltscrew-> It sounds like a WWI scout. It could be the upgrading of the hussar, or of the explorer. But is it really needed?

No it's not really needed. That was just an idea cause i'm getting bored of Horseman, Cavalry and Hussar. :lol:


By the way, it seems that I've won my bet :beer: The game is 5 times faster in modern age, in ibcoltscrew's opinion!

There is some improvement who take much more time then the other for the loading time... like the airport, University and Civil defense. when the production is done, it take 1-2 minute more then usual (the pop-up windows freeze for 1-2 min). Thats the only thing i notice about the loading time... for the rest... no probleme, this is fast enough to be really fun. I can win a game in 8 hours instead of 12 hour now.

jaybe -> what's the difference? Please tell me, I don't know the benefits of being able of disbanding workers, or not being able.
:confused: How should I know, I haven't tried it yet! :D
I just like the concept of not being able to slaughter those that are at high risk of being captured. I wouldn't mind if you had to pay support for captured workers, though it cannot be modified as such.

Please forgive me for being naive about this. :) So am I correct in understanding that this mod only works with the Earth map?? :confused:

Yes. This mod has a purpose of recreating a game on a huge world map with 31 civs, cutting loading times and fixing the lacks of what civ3 was offering (weird world map, weird terrain, many inaccuracies). However, there's in development a "random map alternate version" for who is now used to the set of rules introduced here.

Rhye, lower the pop cost of workers back to 1!
You can get 2 workers when you capture 1 worker, then AI captures those 2 and gets 4 etc.
It just doesn't feel right

really? :eek:

Yes :eek: We were playing hotseat game with my little brother and Ottomans captured his worker and they got 2 workers. Then recaptured gaining 4 workers and then again AI capturing and gaining 8 workers :( Next capture and it's 16 workers :lol:
That's even worse than the pic you posted ;)

LOL !!! Consider that a bonus :)

Captured, the worker works 2X more ...

This can help in begining

:lol: thank you. I have no choice, I have to edit again. 2.46 coming soon.

Interesting the hotseat..never thought of playing multi with this mod. I think that the civs choice would be decisive, perhaps the random map version will be more useful.

I'd like to see the worker cost go back to 1 pop as well.

Posted 2.46

Workers now 24/1 instead of 20/2

EDIT:
Oops, my bad. I slipped up the folder I copied the scenario in... Sorry about that! Now let's see if I can get the dutch to become the worlds most powerfull civ!!!

Obsolete:
Hi, I downloaded the addon and used the installation instructions as decribed in the word document. I can start CIV3 Conquests 1.22 without problems and choose the scenario. However, when I choose the Netherlands as the nation and click continue I get the attached error message.

Does anyone know what it means and how I can get rid of it?

Thnx!

:lol: :scan: :lol:

Damn those 2^x workers are funny :D
256 workers...256 WORKERS!!! :eek:
Turns are taking longer than usual :p :mischief:

Damn those 2^x workers are funny :D
256 workers...256 WORKERS!!! :eek:
Turns are taking longer than usual :p :mischief:
:joke: Maybe you should add the CLONE technologie Rhye :lol: :lol: :twitch: groucho

I wanna know who have try the Carthage and why the city doesn't grow ?.? I start a game and none of my city could produce settler except the capital (Carthage city)... All the other was block to 1 or 2 pop. :mad:

Rhye, have you considered an alternative for 2-pop workers, such as giving them a defense strength so they are not capturable?

?? There already is 2.46 with 1-pop worker. Didn't you see it?

Im still not sure about this new timeline thing. Before when I played earlier version there was at times an uncanny paralel with history - now Im playing the Cartaginians, I didnt realy go for America (focussing on Africa), yet I was the first to discover it in 1700, and the first European colony popped up there in 1820 (which I would say is rather late).

Strange...I had seen first discover in 1400, then the first colonies after a bit more time (1600). Anybody else can report?

Re Rhye :)

I tested the randomization of 2.46

The result of my choice :

- Standard 100x100
- Pangaea
- Moderate in the three parameters ...

The result is very honest :

- Civ Start are well placed
- Only a few civ forced to nomadism in start

I love the fact that have a few civs nomadics

Rhye if you can't assure perfect random map, can you create fictive 100x100 worlds ? Warning : worlds should be as natural and varied as possible :crazyeye:

What do you think ?

tech doesnt seem to be going fast either this game. Im the most advanced civ with my Carthaginians, its 1956 and Ive discovered up to Nationalism and Steam Power :/

Hi all,

Really looking forward to playing what looks like a great mod, but I am having problems getting it working. I have copied the files to the \\conquests\scenarios folder as instructed in the readme, and started the game. When I try and start the mod from the scenarios folder it attempts to start the game but then stops with the following error:

missing entry in "text\PediaIcons.txt":ICON_BLDG_Holy_War

Am I missing something here? Is it required to copy certain files in the archive to different folders?

Any help would be muchly appreciated! :thanx:

Yrgsoth (what a difficult name to spell, what it is?)->No. All you have to do is download the main file into the scenarios folder. But you have to patch your conquests to 1.22, first of all. That could be the problem.

bjorn -> so that's your game. In my tests Steam Power is reached in mid-late 1700.

lachlan-> umm, a pangea.What land/sea ratio is that?
My random map version would be ready...it only has one problem: I must adjust the tech rate and the techs cost because they don't work. Sometimes some civs reach Industrial age in 1900, sometimes in 1500, depending on my changes and on the size of the map. It only needs this balance, and it's such a boring thing to do....

tech doesnt seem to be going fast either this game. Im the most advanced civ with my Carthaginians, its 1956 and Ive discovered up to Nationalism and Steam Power :/
I 've play with Roman, French, German, Spanish, American, Arabia and the tech line seem to be almost perfect. I am most of the time the most advance civ (if it's not france or germany :mad: )and i discover steam power around 1600-1700 :scan: ...

Maybe it's the way you play :crazyeye: or the difficulty level :king: ... Try to raise the difficulty and everything should be fine.

1600 is early. What level are you playing?

The correct should be:

around 470 -> entering middle ages
around 1500 -> discovery of America
mid 1700 -> entering industrial age
mid 1900 -> entering modern times

ibcoltscrew, any chance of writing strategy guides for the civs you've played? They'll figure in the site.

Yrgsoth (what a difficult name to spell, what it is?)->No. All you have to do is download the main file into the scenarios folder. But you have to patch your conquests to 1.22, first of all. That could be the problem.


Conquests is already at v1.22. Inside the zip archive that I downloaded was a .bic file, which I presume is what you mean by 'the main file'. In that case, shall I delete all the .flc, .pcx etc files that are also in the archive? I find that hard to believe...

ibcoltscrew, any chance of writing strategy guides for the civs you've played? They'll figure in the site.

I'm not good enough in english to write a good strategy :sad: but i can always try and post it here ;) . Maybe you could correct it and fix it to make it clear in english. ( :nuke: i hope you know what i mean :nuke: )
I'm using the same startegy for France, Spain, England, Germany and Austria... :lol: Things change with America, Iroquois, Egypte and Arabia... :crazyeye:

Conquests is already at v1.22. Inside the zip archive that I downloaded was a .bic file, which I presume is what you mean by 'the main file'. In that case, shall I delete all the .flc, .pcx etc files that are also in the archive? I find that hard to believe...

Lets try something else... EXTRACT RoC_v246.zip on the desktop... after, open C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\Conquests\Conquests (or wherever you install the game) and CUT and PAST the BIC and the Folder with the same name as the BIC in your Conquest/Conquest Folder...

1. Extract RoC_v246.zip on your desktop
2. You should see Rhye's of Civilization v2.45.biq and a folder Rhye's of Civilization.
3. Now open Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\Conquests\Conquests
4. Cut and Past the BIC and the Folder there.
5. Start the game, choose Conquest and Rhye's of civilization 2.46... Enjoy.

I hope it help.

Very well :)
I can do my best to correct it but the last word will be from a native english speaker (Roluce?). In fact, this is what I did when writing the readme

yrgsoth, the main file I mean is http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/RoC_v246.zip
Inside there are no BIC files, but there's a BIX

Lachlan ... I just try your Random Map and i don't think it's a good idea to make the map smaller. I've start with the american and i was close... not close like you think... but VERY close to 5 other civilization (France, Mongol, Iroquois, Spain and Germany) And i was only able to build 2 city.

With 2 city there is nothing to do except behind rape in the ass :sad: . So, i've play an half-hour, after about 10 turn, France declar war on me for no reason(like all the time)... they destroyed Washington and New-York in 2 turn. End of the game... Half hour of fun(or not).

I gonna wait the Rhye's version. Nice try ;)

Very well :)
I can do my best to correct it but the last word will be from a native english speaker (Roluce?). In fact, this is what I did when writing the readme
It's not hard to be better then me you know :lol: ;) :lol: . If you can ask a native english, it would be awesome :goodjob:

the main problem i have with the mod is that when i started with egypt, i could never get to size 4 because the disease from flood plains was that bad

I know. In a standard Earth map Egypt has a huge advantage - a huge growth caused by 3 food by flood plains. Now getting strong for Egypt is much more difficult - but there are some civs which are in worse situation. You have to create workers as soon as you can and begin terraforming.

it says the zip is corrupt?

I don't think. Try downloading again.

News about the random map:

after some tests I notice that the largest size (to handle 31 civs) was surprisingly slow.
I analyzed the map with map tweaker and obtained interesting results. So I decided for some changes:

You'll have some settings you MUST select (temperature, age and barbarian level).
And the maps will be very small....a 150x150 will handle 31 civs! Sounds strange, right?
But if you analyse the "good" squares (plains+grassland+flood plains+hills) you'll see that the standard version of RoC has only about 1600 of it.
With certain settings that number will be reproduced, and with 3 billion years age you'll have the same felling of "barriers".
Now, after belancing the techs cost, the tech rate is the only missing thing (it changes from size to size and I must decide it).

i downloaded this http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/RoC_v246.zip

it says... winzip cant open this file, not a valid archive

i get a message like that with winrar to, i downloaded 3 times

???

what version of winzip do you have?

try this:

http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/RoC_v246.rar

Rhye's alternative map

I had nothing to do yesterday so i decide to modify the map to make it a bit unreal. I past 5 hours straight having fun with it. I know the main map is fun but after 30+ game i know it too much and get bored of it.

Major Change :

-Replace Iroquois for Canada
-Replace Aztec for Mexican.
-Some ressources (oil, Uranium) are harder to find and some are easier to find(wines,furs).
-Arabia and Egypt have more water...
-Canada have more plain and more space to build
-Add lot of rivers and lot of trees
-Portugal's position have move to the left
-Spain/Portugal island is bigger
-Some other change that you will see very soon if you try it.

This map is made for personnal use only and for people who know Rhye's map VERY WELL... If you don't like it, don't play it.

***I strongly suggest to play Rhye's map before this one.***

Any boby can create fictive map for the mod ?

Since Rhye has said the random is problematic

I'm still waiting the random biq of rhye :mischief:

The problematic thing is that I can't release as it is: it needs some more work on it.
But the result will be a lot better than just unclicking "custom map" in the editor. I promise it ready for tonight or tomorrow.

Rhye, I understand the need for the new timeline and how it speeds up the game but in the later stages of the game technology slows down relative to what year Im in.
Im now playing the Portugese which seemed to be going alright: I was crossing the Atlantic in the 1490s, founding my first American colony in 1560 AD (I had already founded several colonies in Africa). However, Im now in 1928 and researching the last of the medieval techs, even though Im taking the minimum of 5 techs a turn to research new ones. The AI hasnt caught up at all, only France and England have 2 cities in the New World. (No one has conquered anyone, all civs should be going at their full capacity). The timeline in the later stages of the game seems way off. (Im playing on regent btw)

Perhaps you could come up with 2 seperate versions; 1 for slow pc's who need the extra boost, and 1 for faster pc's (my games were doing fine speedwise in earlier versions, but now I cant even get to the modern age before the score time ends).

winzip 9 and winrar 3.3 or something

with winrar i get "unexpected end of archive" other mods i downloaded work

bjorn->OK I'll post an alternate 500 turns version. But I think that your problem is too low difficulty level

mazzz->did you see the rar I've posted above?

Any boby can create fictive map for the mod ?

Since Rhye has said the random is problematic

I'm still waiting the random biq of rhye :mischief:
THis is not a random map !

This is the same map and mod with some minor change to make the game different. I really appreciate Rhye's mod... my best ever so i don't want to change it. I like the Earth map and i don't want to change it too... but playing the same LOOKING map all the time is boring... For exemple, i have change almost every normal forest for pine forest... thats look different. I add and remove some mountain and hill and i have change iroquois for canada/Aztek for mexican... i hope you understand that it's not a random map or a new mod.
Same mod, same map, same rule... just looking different.

yes, i still get the same message

mazz-> how can it be? I unzipped the .zip, compressed into a rar and posted! In what file type should I compress?

ibcoltscrew->I'll update the link to your mod in the site

I can't find anything I like here. *shrugs*

ibcoltscrew->I'll update the link to your mod in the site
Thanks buddy :D

I can't find anything I like here. *shrugs*
You should play something else :lol: :lol: :lol: For me, this mod is the best thing that happen to this game :goodjob:

no doubt this mod is for only some kind of users. Who wants faster loadings, who loves historical accuracy and who loves to play with world map.
If grandmasta doesn't belong to any of three groups (and I instead belong to all the three) it is clear that he won't find anything interesting here.

Rhye,

I just finished a OCC game as England on monarch. I managed to eke out a diplomatic victory just before the timer ran out and I learned quite a bit about 2.46. I'm going to do a huge write up tomorrow in the Stories section and I can email you all the screenshots I took as the game progressed. I have about 8 pages of notes and it is cool to see how the game developed. I think it'd be worthwhile to put on your site.

Thanks, horton!!!!!! 8 pages? wow I can't wait!

Posted Random map and 500 turns versions. They are avaiable in the site. Enjoy.

Please if you're playing with random map read the readme carefully!!!

Very nice !!! :D

i think there is an illogical thing: Ancient Cavalry are horses but they need elephants. :confused:

Hello marco,
ancient cavalry is produced by the Statue of Zeus.
It was made in gold and ivory. And for ivory you need elephants

I just had a quick look at your random map mod which looks good at first glance - you might want to check the camel rider though; I was able to build it without actually having camels.

Rhye ... Your random version is SOOOO FASSSSTTT :cool: i can't beleive it... :D what did you do ? :confused: ? :confused: ? I'm not kidding here... this very very fast on my computer and it's really really fun. I go back to my game... BTW thanks for this version. :goodjob:

bjorn, I wonder how many mistakes would I put in a mod without your help - thank you so much, I've updated the biq.

TO EVERYBODY - DOWNLOAD IT AGAIN.

ibcoltscrew - what map size are you talking about? Is the standard biq random game much slower? My last civ3 standard game was 2 years ago with another computer, I don't remember its speed.

ibcoltscrew - what map size are you talking about? Is the standard biq random game much slower? My last civ3 standard game was 2 years ago with another computer, I don't remember its speed.
Huge map random with 20 civ. I've remove some civ that i don't like... the game is still fun maybe more cause there is more space on the map and the big civ like Germany and France become bigger :D . For the loading time... i should say... Almost the same as the original game...1 or 2 sec... maybe 3 :lol: Amazing !!! :crazyeye:

Hey Rhye, I've found a bug with the random map version. The lux icon in the city view for incense is wrong, furs are being shown instead. It's a really minor bug, but I think I should point it out anyway. I have only dyes, wines and incense so I don't know about the rest. I've attached the .sav file.
I should also say the random version makes very interesting games, with the limited cities, and natural barriers. :)

I know, I know.

It's the luxuryiconsmall.pcx but if you replace it, then it won't work with the standard version of RoC, I should find a way to let multiple files be used. I could add another dir....I'll try and let you know.

rendermad-> OK it works. It's now fixed. You'll need to start a new game with the new uploaded version to see the changes.

EVERYBODY PLEASE DOWNLOAD IT AGAIN

http://rhyesciv.uw.hu/RoC_v246R.zip

I've uploaded some screenshots in the server.
Habee, can you organize them in a table with previews?

Rhye, may i ask you to do something about the french nation... The french are too strong... if i don't destroy them at start, they will destroy everyone and when i say everyone it's because they can't be beat... impossible to beat them... They are more advance then any other nation and agressive with everyone. In real life, french never win a