The Third Session of Fanatica's Senate is hereby called to order!

Senatorial discussion regarding slider settings, cash requests, and perhaps the general goings on in the provinces is to be discussed here. Also, all cash requests should be made in this thread for prompt Senatorial action, and all Senate votes will take place here.

Current Senate:

Bootstoots - Vice President and President of the Senate

CivGeneral - Governor of Berry Province
tao - Governor of Audiac Province
TerminalMan90 - Governor At-Large

Results of Term 3 Senate votes:
Term 3 Senate Vote 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1638751#post1638751) Passed, 3-0-0
Term 3 Senate Vote 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1651572#post1651572) Invalid, 1-0-0 (not polled for long enough)

I'll start off with discussion about slider settings.

I propose that we keep the slider the same 90% science, 10% tax setting, as that will get us The Republic within 6 turns, whereas dropping the science slider will cause it to take more turns and raising it to 100% has no effect. I also propose that we allow for a temporary 10% lux setting if absolutely necessary to keep cities from rioting, and that we direct that upon reaching 3 turns remaining on Republic that the DP check to see if the slider can be lowered without increasing the number of turns necessary to research The Republic, and that the DP repeat this action for 1 and 2 turns remaining. The slider would then be reset to 90% science immediately upon the completion of research on The Republic.

How does this sound? Discuss, and I plan on starting a vote within around 48 hours. Also, if any leader has any cash requests, be sure to post here about them ASAP.

I want to propose that we run 10% lux for 1 turn. This will cost us 1 gold. But if we do this, we can work another floodplain in Vandelay without riot and get growth in 1 turn to coincide with the settler production. Thus after building the settler Vandelay will be at size 5 instead of 4. The gold spent will immediately be earned by the additional citizen. We loose nothing but gain. After the settler is built, we can run 0% lux again.

I think we have to re-assess slider settings after we revolt to republic.

I think that's a good idea, tao. We will, of course, have to re-assess slider settings after the revolt to republic.

Any further discussion or cash requests? Polling will start tomorrow.

TerminalMan Arrives back at the Senate. As he passes his old office, he notices that Boots has already taken residence.

Further down the hall, he comes to his new abode, drops some scrolls into his 'out' slot and settles in to discharge some of his At-Large duties.

Picking up one of the scrolls in the 'in' slot, he is somewhat surprised and pleased to see that VP Boot's proposal before the senate bears a striking resemblence to his own proposals from the last term.

In his day, however, the scroll paper was a bit fancier, the chosen font was somewhat more posh. This proposal, he muses, is much less formal.

Ah well. Change is a good thing.

:) Welcome to the office of VP Boots! :)

Thanks for the welcome TM90. :)

Here are the proposals for the first Senate vote of this term. Please vote Yes, No, or Abstain on each item separately. Voting closes at 20:00 EST tomorrow (01:00 GMT on 4 March), which is one hour before the turnchat, or after all votes have been cast, whichever comes first.

Item 1:
The slider will be kept at 90% science for the next few turns. When there are three turns remaining on Republic, the DP will check the slider and lower it if we can do so without increasing the number of turns that it would take to research it. This is to be repeated when there are two and one turn left to research Republic. Once Republic is researched, we will revert to 90% science funding. Additionally, the lux slider is to be set at 10% until Turn 1, so that a citizen in Vandelay can work another flood plain tile without riot, generating a settler in one turn. The slider is to revert to 0% lux after Turn 1, and may be raised or kept at 10% only if absolutely necessary to avoid riot.

Item 2:
A maximum of 200 gold may be used for unit upgrades and anything else that is absolutely necessary.


Also, all cash requests must be in by 20:00 EST (01:00 GMT) today to be voted on. If anybody has a cash request, be sure to post it ASAP. All cash requests are to be voted on separately.

Item 1: yes
Item 2: yes

Item 1: yes
Item 2: yes (I think).

As worded, item 2 could be taken to mean 'a maximum of 200 gp may be used for... anything ... that is absolutely necessary'. That is a pretty broad scope and highly subject to the DP's inderpretation.

For the next cash request, I would ask that you tighten up your wording and make your intent clearer.

Item 1: Yes
Item 2: Yes

Items 1 and 2 have passed with the result of 3-0-0. No cash requests will be approved after this point.

TM90, I will make the wording of Item 2 (or some variant) more clear next time around.

I am glad to see the Senate off to a strong start! Keep up the good work.

When is the TCIT going up, BTW? Or is it there and I didn't see it?

Originally posted by Bootstoots
When is the TCIT going up, BTW? Or is it there and I didn't see it?

It is there now.

I would like to inform the Senate and all who vist these halls that in RL I have been downsized. The small BioTech company I work for has been struggling since the summer before 9/11. I survived the first round of cuts, but was not so lucky this time. My involvement with the DG may be a bit less, but I will try to get my Senate votes in on time. If I get a province, it may prove too much for me and I will have to resign my position.

Thank you for your consideration.

Senators,

I will now be requesting funds for our war against Babylon that has started. The amount of funds is at this point unknown, but I suspect it will be much. I will try to keep it below 100 gold, but it seems inevitable that it will be above that. This money is to be spent on upgrading units and if we go republic during the war, to rush units. Specific funds will be asked for later, but this is to inform you that there will be fund requests in the near future.

- Sarevok
Minister of Defense

I see 5 warrior as upgradeable to swords. 5x40g=200g. I would be willing to approve that.

Senators,

In this time of war, demands on our coffers are many - our Citizens may want us to form alliances with other nations to aid us in our war efforts. The deals involved in forming these alliances are complex and involve discussions with Trade and Technology. With only 162 gold in our vaults we are unable to simply buy these alliances. Either T&T or myself will inform you of our requirements as soon as we know ourselves!

edit: sorry to hear that TM90

Originally posted by TerminalMan90
I would like to inform the Senate and all who vist these halls that in RL I have been downsized. The small BioTech company I work for has been struggling since the summer before 9/11. I survived the first round of cuts, but was not so lucky this time. My involvement with the DG may be a bit less, but I will try to get my Senate votes in on time. If I get a province, it may prove too much for me and I will have to resign my position.

Thank you for your consideration.

I am sorry to hear the news. I know how difficult it can be having been through the same thing 2 times in the last 3 years. I wish you the best of luck in you search for a job.

BTW, shouldn't you now have more time for the forums ;)

I'm sorry for not holding this vote sooner. Anyway, here it is:

Item 1: We keep the slider as low as possible (without increasing turns on research) until we get Republic. After that, we return to 90% science and 10% taxes for the duration of the chat.

Item 2: 200 gold can be allocated for unit upgrades.

Item 3: We approve any gold expenditure necessary for alliances with other civs aganst Babylon.

The Governor of Audiac saize:

Item 1: yes
Item 2: yes
Item 3: yes

I’m not sure whether this comes under Foreign Affairs or Ministry of Defence, but it looks like the results of this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80837) and this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=7265) indicate that we want to form alliances with Russia, then if possible Germany. In the absence of any other trades, the cost of these alliances is as follows:
Russia = 108 gold or 6 gpt
Germany = 11 gpt plus 2 gold, although this may change after we make the alliance with Russia

Here is a table of the amounts of gold and research time on Feudalism we can get with various tech rates:

Slider rate Profit per turn Research time (turns)
0% +53 -
10% +46 31
20% +40 31
30% +32 31
40% +30 31
50% +15 29
60% +11 26
70% +7 24
80% +1 21
90% -7 19
100% -12 17

So, which one would be the best? Our current treasury is 533 gold. Keep in mind that much of this may be spent on the war effort and I encourage all leaders who have cash requests to please post here ASAP so that we can consider the requests.

IMHO we made a number of not very bright decision in the last turnchat.[list=1] We did not switch to republic and thus can't cash-hurry units or improvements. Thus I would not agree with unspecific "war expenses".
Paying for the alliance was a big waste of money. I would not agree on further cash for alliances.
Doing 10% research of feudalism is something I would never have done. Since we did it, I would suggest creating a lone scientist and setting 0% research.
[/list=1] We could unhook our iron, build warriors, and upgrade them to swords. But since IMHO we should not build any more dead-end swords but horsemaen, I would also not approve this.

We should build hordemen and save the money for knight upgrades. And with all the money, we can buy feudalism and chivalry cheaper than researching it.

The vote begins now, it will close in 24 hours. When voting, please choose an option for Item 1 (or vote against both of them if neither sounds good).

Item 1:
Option 1: The slider is to be set at 90% science, 10% tax like it was before, with an allowance for 10% lux if absolutely necessary to keep a city from rioting.
Option 2: The slider is to be set at 0% science, 100% tax if a scientist is assigned, or 10% science, 90% tax if no scientist is assigned by a governor. 10% lux is allowed if absolutely necessary to keep a city from rioting.

Item 2: 150 gold may be used for unit upgrades. No alliances may be signed that require us to pay gold to another civ.

Item 1: Option2. We spent 9 turns on min research and thus the AIs are likely to beat us. Therefore let's accumulate cash to buy the tech, hopefully getting a 2 for 1 deal.
Item 2: yes with comments: I would be happy to pay some money (up to 100g) if the deal overall is favorable (e.g. gets us a tech)

IMHO we should switch to republic now. If we do it, I would also support spending money for hurrying if urgently necessary, e.g. defensive unit, settler to claim important city site, etc..

Item 1: Option 2

Item 2: Yes to the upgrades.

tao's comments, while they may have strategic merrit, would be better received in a discussion post rather than a vote post. Also, switching to republic is not a Senate matter and belongs in the citizens discussion forum.

I don't want to seem snooty, tao, but this is a Senate thread.

Sorry for the lack of prior discussion, but it is nearing 24 hours until the next turnchat begins. Here is my proposal submitted for vote, which closes in 24 hours:

Item 1:
Option 1: The science slider is to be set at 10% science if there is no scientist, or 0% if there is one set. The luxury slider may be set at 10% if absolutely necessary to keep cities from rioting, otherwise it is to be set at 0%.

Option 2: The slider is to be set at 90% science. The luxury slider may be set at 10% if absolutely necessary to avoid riots, otherwise it is to be set at 0%.

Item 2: If we enter Republic during this chat, the turnchat is to be immediately stopped so that slider settings can be reconsidered.

Item 3: 200 gold may be allocated for unit upgrades.

Item 1: Option 2

Item 2: Abstain

Item 3: Yea

I abstain for Item 2 because I don't think this can be a vote before the Senate. It does concern the slider setting, but it is not the Senate that decides when to stop the turn chat. That is up to the congress to decide.

I believe one of the JR rulings in Term 1 ruled that the turnchat may be stopped because of leaders' instructions (such as FA instructions to stop because of war declarations or new contacts). I don't imagine the Senate would be any different. Also, the vote closes in just over half an hour; CG and tao: Get out the vote! :)

The vote is closed. I will break the 0-0 tie in the Senate by voting in favor of Item 2.

When I was VP, I hated doing that. The Senate is a good place to nap; not much going on here :lol:

Senators,

We are entering a new age in Fanatican government - the age of the Republic! The demands made upon with become more and more significant, with cash-rush requests and slider settings becoming more challenging to balance.

For the next few turn chats, I am requesting that you utilize our significant cash situation to boost our cultural situation. With the exception of the city chosen for the FP, please consider rejecting more non-culture requests, and give our nation the ability to compete with our neighbors.

Thank you,
-- Ravensfire, Minister of Internal Affairs

I wish to vote Yes to the polls in the senate thread that I have missed.

I have two provisional cash requests, both dependant upon the current Forbidden Palace plan being approved.

Groton will need the following cash rushes:

Courthouse: approx. 216 gold to rush immediately (exact numbers later tonight)

Cathedral: approx. 628 gold to rush after 1 turn of production (could be +/- 4 gold, based on corruption reduction)

While this is a significant amount of our treasury, it will hasten the Forbidden Palace. It also has strong vocal support, and hopefully will have the same support in polling.

Thank you,
-- Ravensfire, Minister of Internal Affairs

I agree with hurrying the courthouse.

I do not agree hurrying a cathedral. Instead I favor (at least) 10% lux plus trading for incense, because this would benefit all of our cities, not just Groton.

PS: Groton should get&work another mined hill.

Tao - this is for the FP. By rushing the Cathedral, the FP can be started sooner. Groton will be able to resist discontentment longer without using specialists with the Cathedral. The long-term benefits of the FP are undeniable, and will affect many Fanatican cities - not just Groton. The sooner it's online, the more benefit we will reach from it.

Should this plan be polled successfully, it will clearly demonstrate the will of the people. I hope the Senate will recognize that and vote accordingly.

-- Ravensfire, Minister of Internal Affairs

Originally posted by ravensfire
Tao - this is for the FP.No need to state the obvious for me. By rushing the Cathedral, the FP can be started sooner. Groton will be able to resist discontentment longer without using specialists with the Cathedral.I disagree. See my post in the FP thread.

Should this plan be polled successfully, it will clearly demonstrate the will of the people. I hope the Senate will recognize that and vote accordingly.I would still support the better alternative, which IMHO is available.

Since there is no vote in place, I guess I will get to decide on the sliders and cash rushes. So I urge all citizens to be vocal here about what they want to see for the next turn chat.

As Governor of Audiac, I would very much like to know how happiness is handled. My favorite is "+2" in happiness which could be implemented as follows:[list=1] 20% luxury for 2 turns
in 2 turns the road to our southern dyes is built
we trade dyes for incense and set 10% lux.
[/list=1] If I learn before the turnchat, instructions will be easier. Otherwise I would neeed to give 3 alternatives (no happiness, +1 happiness, +2 happiness) which makes the instructions sort of hard to give and hard to read. :)

Ok being vocal - Use the Lux slider - we need to get those specialists working - all we need is one scientist to keep up our minimum research, the rest should be out in the fields so to speak. tao's +2 proposal would set everyone working, +1 would leave specialists in the larger cities still, but would be better than what we have now. We do need to trade those dyes for incense once we connect them up.

Apologies for forgetting the senate vote last time, by the time I looked it was a few hours too late. So, what would be the best course of action regarding the slider settings, in your opinions?

Ministry of Internal Affairs Cash Rush requests:

Mûre: Cash rush Temple for cultural pressure reasons. Cost: 228
Almaren: Cash rush Warrior in turn 3 for defense. Cost: 36

This post may be updated with further requests. However, as the President did rush several cultural improvements in MIA controlled cities last t/c, I will wait for the Governors to make their requests.

Thanks for your attention to this matter!
-- Ravensfire, Minister of Internal Affairs

Here are the items for this senate vote:

Item 1: Option 1: The slider is to be set at 90% science, 0% lux. 10% lux is allowed if absolutely necessary to avoid riots.

Option 2: The slider is to be set at 10% science, or 0% if we have at least one scientist in a city. The luxury slider is to be set at 0% unless it is absolutely necessary to raise it to 10% to avoid riots.

Option 3 (intermediary option): The slider is to be set at 50% science, 0% lux (or 10% if absolutely necessary to avoid riots).


Item 2: 228 gold is allocated for the cash rush of a temple in Mure for cultural pressure reasons


Item 3: A warrior may be rushed in Almaren during turn 3, costing 36 gold.

This poll will be open until the start of the next turnchat.

Item I: Option 2

Item II: Yes

Item III: No

Please note for Item 1, Options 1,2 and 3:

Opt 1, 90% Science = Feudalism in 5 and -87gpt (10% lux) or -69gpt (0% lux) (yes that's negative)
Opt 2, 0% Science with a scientist = Feudalism in 6 and +108gpt (10% lux) or +128 gpt (0% lux)
Opt 3, 50% Science = Feudalism in 6 and -6gpt (10% lux) or + 15gpt (0% lux)

As a citizen I would be somewhat upset to see us running at a large negative gold per turn for the sake of one turn less to research Feudalism and Option 3 costs us gold and gains us nothing. Please vote for Option 2.

Once we complete Feudalism, that may be the time to up the research, but we're unlikely to be able to support 90% even then!

I would like to request the funds necessary for implementing this settler flood. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1699625#post1699625)

Item I: Option 1; I would push luxury up to 20% if that is necessary to prevent several entertainers/specialists.

Item II: No. Mure is IMHO not that important.

Item III: No. Another warrior will not help against the soon emerging knights. We may ship some of the soon obsolete swords to the island.

Item 1: Option 2 (Thanks for the heads-up Furiey)
Item 2: yes (Mmmmm, culture)
Item 3: no

You gotta be kidding me! We're gonna kill our cash position for the sake of getting Feudalism 1 turn earlier? One turn? To get a defensive unit, when we aren't at war?

One turn? And then, WE'LL CONTINUE TO OPERATE AT A NEGATIVE INCOME BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE INSTRUCTIONS ARE WRITTEN!!!!!!!

Not the best approach in my opinion. Thanks TM, for taking what I consider to be a better way.

-- Ravensfire

Since PMs were sent on the issue, let me clarify my vote on Item 1 (research). Anybody with even half a brain should be able to trade for feudalism before the turn ends. Thus it doesn't matter, how the slider is. ;)

And since we do not know how much more techs if any the new world civs know, there is no meaningful decision on how to research afterwards.:goodjob:

I'm not convinced that any trades for Feudalism will be happening - see this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82808). Right now, trading for Feudalism is pretty low.

Should we be making decisions that assume something unlikely will happen?

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
Absolute stupidity ... except for TM - thanks for the voice of reason in the dark sea of irresponsible actions.

Ok, Now I feel offended at that comment. After Furiey posted that last night, I decided to sleep on it before I finalize my vote (Since at the time I was getting ready to head to bed at my watch).

After reading the PM Raven sent me, I have decided to make a change to my vote. But now I feel offended after reading the above post with the statements Stupidity and Irresponsible

I will hearby Change my vote as listed in my older vote.

IMHO we should be able to get everything on that list, maybe except monarchy.

@ CG,

I wouldn't let emotions or hurt feelings sway my vote. If you think Furiey and Ravensfire are correct in their assesment, your professional duty is to vote that way. If you feel slighted by Ravensfires comments, flame him, yell at him, publicly deride him if you like. But don't punish the rest of Fanatica just because you don't have thick enough skin to withstand a tounge lashing.

This IS an official thread of the fanatican government. You would do yourself credit if you were to act accordingly.

Originally posted by tao
IMHO we should be able to get everything on that list, maybe except monarchy.

I agree with you on that, but it doesn't matter if we can, it matters what we will get. Based on that poll - neither tech will be traded.

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
I agree with you on that, but it doesn't matter if we can, it matters what we will get. Based on that poll - neither tech will be traded.
Correct. Since that poll is only the first step (Persia) and 3 or 4 more steps wih the other civs will follow immediately. At least it would be the right thing to do ...............

Originally posted by CivGeneral


Ok, Now I feel offended at that comment. After Furiey posted that last night, I decided to sleep on it before I finalize my vote (Since at the time I was getting ready to head to bed at my watch).

After reading the PM Raven sent me, I have decided to make a change to my vote. But now I feel offended after reading the above post with the statements Stupidity and Irresponsible

I will hearby Change my vote as listed in my older vote.

CG, my apologies - issues at work had me in a foul mood. I'll edit the post to lower the flame from 5 to a 1 or so.

My concerns are still valid. I will say that this has provoked the type of debate that we need.

-- Ravensfire

Since IMHO the most important goal for now should be growth and production, I advocate up to 30% lux tax, if needed by more than 1 city.

I agree with tao. The old 10% template may not be enough to keep some of our larger cities happy. More buffer space may be necessary.

In my 610 turnchat instructions, I also included possibilities for hurrying culture buildings. The first 3 I recommend: 256g for 1 temple and 2 libraries.

MIA Cash requests for 610 AD.

NOTE: All requests are for rushes.

Vandopolis: 220 gold to rush temple
-- City is under cultural pressure and needs the help

Ville de Buisson: 112 gold to rush Settle after 1 turn

Finklewink: 160 gold to rush Temple
-- Borders will expand, bringing Game tile under control

New city that might be founded in west: 316 to rush Library the turn after founding. This city is between both Egyptian cities, has the highest poll results or remaining valid sites and cooresponds with desires of the people to settle aggressively. This city will be at high culture risk.

Thanks,
-- Ravensfire, Minister of Internal Affairs

No to Vandopolis. It is much closer to Deux Rivieres than Chittagong to Delhi and thus no great flip risk.

Ville de Buisson: No; too much money for a settler. If really necessaty, Bootsville could build it.

Finklewink: I don't like spend money on remote place, but don't object, IF we also bring in troops (say 2-3 swords).

New city at site A: yes, but only if founded there.

Boots has posted in the absence thread for this weekend. No Senate vote has been posted yet.

Can I, as a Governor-at-large post a vote in his stead? Alas it is too late anyway by one hour.

Originally posted by TerminalMan90
Boots has posted in the absence thread for this weekend. No Senate vote has been posted yet.

Can I, as a Governor-at-large post a vote in his stead? Alas it is too late anyway by one hour.

TM - as a Governor At-Large, you are a member of the Senate, and thus entitled to vote. The turn chat isn't until Sunday (US time), so you have time.

-- Ravensfire

Senators,

For my 610 AD instructions, I will be requiring a large amount of gold in order to upgrade our units to create a more efficient army and preperation for future operations.

- Sarevok
Minister of Defense

Originally posted by ravensfire

TM - as a Governor At-Large, you are a member of the Senate, and thus entitled to vote. The turn chat isn't until Sunday (US time), so you have time.

-- Ravensfire

No, he doesn't. A vote needs to last 24 hours and it needs to end at least an hour before the turn chat. So the vote should have started at least 4 1/2 hours before TerminalMan90 posted his question.

Originally posted by zorven


No, he doesn't. A vote needs to last 24 hours and it needs to end at least an hour before the turn chat. So the vote should have started at least 4 1/2 hours before TerminalMan90 posted his question.

Oops - you're right - my math was off!

-- Ravensfire