This thread is for organizing our workforce, and to determine which tiles to work on to maximize city production, and to build infrastructure to new city sites.


This first post will contain links to the latest reports, and updates on the worker project for this term.

A preliminary report:

Native Worker = 1 worker
Foreign Worker = .5 worker

Workforce:

16 Workers
1 Foriegn

16.5 workers.

Worker Assessment - 16 workers for 12 cities (and just before the middle ages). This is quite a first for the demogame. However, we're lucky that we're industrious (workers are twice as fast). Had this been a non industrious civ, I'd be wanting 24 workers. We'll also need to double the amount of workers just before hitting the industrial era (from designated worker factories). We do, however, have jungle, of which both cities won't be reaching size 12 until an aquaduct is built.

First Task - Setting Priorities (Important note - we can't build aquaducts!)

Deux Rivieres - This can grow to size 12, and has plenty of excess food thanks to flood plains. (In total, 10 excess food, or 5 free sizes in growth). This is what it needs worked to achieve maximum productivity. (This is a potential 25spt city, BTW, great for knights! Knights every 3 turns.). This is a top priority city.

In the shaded area, all floodplains shall be irragated, and all tiles mined.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_DoI_DR.jpg

Santa Lucia - This city needs an aquaduct to grow past size 6. Therefore, it only needs 6 free tiles, 4 of which are already free of jungle (3 grassland, 1 forest). It only needs 2 jungle tiles cleared. We can leave the forest in. Why? Because it halts at size 6, and will have 2 surpluss food, which are going nowhere.


Huntington - This city also needs an aquaduct to grow past size 6, and only needs 6 tiles free. There are 3 free tiles. We need to clear 3 non-luxury jungle tiles. Why non luxury tiles? Because a luxury tile will NEVER yield more than 1 spt. Ever.

(under construction)

Second Task - Pairing up the work force.

For all normal tiles (normal being, grassland, plains, desert, tundra), I want assigned, 2 workers each. For all jungle tiles, I want assigned, 3 workers each. Normally, I'd go with 4, but the jungle cities are low in population, and can only grow to size 6 until aquaducts (which we won't have for atleast 26 turns).

Just small comments:

For roading and mining (not irrigation), it is most efficient to pair a native worker with a slave.

We can't build aqueducts now, but we can 6 turns from now. Thus it would be easy to prebuild with temples, libraries, etc.

Since we are about to go republic, the jungle near Vo Mimbre should be cleared sooner rather than later.

The people of Huntington want all the Jungle tiles cleared so we can grow past size two. Plus we want a worker there all time until all the tiles are filled up with mining shafts or irragated fields. The main thing is get all the jungle out first.

This is the wishlist for worker actions in Audiac:

Vandelay:
worker NNE: irrigate; road; SE; mine and road mountain (lots of effort, but we need the shields)

New Falcon's Heaven:
irrigate; NE-E; road forrest; W-NW; irrigate; road

Raven's Flight:
clear, mine, road; N; clear, mine; SW; clear, mine, road; E; clear, mine, road any further enforcements appreciated, since we place high priority on Raven's Flight culture expansion

St. Octaviansburg:
finish mine, road; and then:
worker 1: NW; road, NW; road; NW; mine hill; road; (this should help the settlement planned at Z/blue)
worker 2: E; irrigate; road; join Raven's Flight team

Cijam:
worker NE: mine; road; SE, mine; road
worker W-N: finish road; if we war Egypt: road to wines; otherwise: S; irrigate; road; SE; irrigate; road

Once the people of Huntington want all the tiles cleared, they want them all mined. ALL mined. And like I said in my last post we want a worker there all time until all tiles are full in city radius.

Chieftess, do you have a recommendation as to how many workers to assign to each city/tasks? And which cities/tasks should take priority?

Originally posted by truckingpete
The people of Huntington want all the Jungle tiles cleared so we can grow past size two. Plus we want a worker there all time until all the tiles are filled up with mining shafts or irragated fields. The main thing is get all the jungle out first.

One might think that all 20 tiles need to be cleared, but let's look at the facts...

Current - The cities can only get up to size 6. There's no sense wasting worker time clearing uneeded jungle. (Those dyes didn't need to be cleared - only roaded).

Size 7+ - We'll need aquaducts. We don't even have them yet. We haven't even started building these yet, nor are the cities even close to size 6. Our workers need to beef up potential power cities first.

Size 13+ - We're gonna need a strange building called a "Hospital". (I had a dream once about these futuristic places... Walls and tools made of pure iron... and strange materials, that look like they came from a jellyfish - clear). Roleplay over. We're not gonna get to this point until FAR into the game. Those extra tiles that we clear now would be a waste.

Once the people of Huntington want all the tiles cleared, they want them all mined. ALL mined. And like I said in my last post we want a worker there all time until all tiles are full in city radius.

Yes, mining is a always a good thing when you have all grassland (and at least 2 hills, or 1 mountain). :)

(One extra note - it's gonna take me a little longer to re-adjust to vanilla civ3's industrious workers).

IMHO the request for Huntington is not optimal. I would irrigate at least one tile (currently occupied by the Babylonian) to grow to size 6 fast. Our industrious workers can afterwards change the irrigation to mine. Just my recommendation.

Originally posted by zorven
Chieftess, do you have a recommendation as to how many workers to assign to each city/tasks? And which cities/tasks should take priority?

Yes, the basic layout is group workers by 2, and by 4 if they're working on the jungle. Also, if you are to use the Bab worker, make him build roads/mines on grassland/plains/deserts.


Classifications are coming.

Originally posted by Chieftess
Yes, the basic layout is group workers by 2, and by 4 if they're working on the jungle. Also, if you are to use the Bab worker, make him build roads/mines on grassland/plains/deserts.Since we are industrious, grouping by 2 means wasting 1 turn if we road or mine flat land.

If we want to work flat land, especially build long roads, the optimum is to pair the slave with one native worker.

Jungle clearing needs 12 "native turns", thus, 2, 3, or 4 native workers are best. Also look at when the tile will be used: e.g. Huntington and Santa Lucia can be improved "slowly".

With industrious workers, you can't help wasting .5 workers when building roads. (You'd need more foriegn workers - it's actually a bit easier in C3C). For mines, if we have 6 native workers, building 3 roads, then they can group into 2 groups of 3 to mine. Right now, our workers are kind of scattered about. Yes, you could try to have 3 roads, and 2 mines done in 2 turns, but look at it this way - cities only grow so fast -- 2.5 tiles done in 2 turns when a city takes 7-10 to grow. Managing workers like this would be better in the industrial era (since you'll have rails). It's a trade-off, and why non-industrious workers are better to manage this way. (3 workers for a road, and 6 for a mine). Industrious workers start getting into fractions, which, if you try to do it in the ancient/middle ages, it's tedious, and isn't worth the effort IMHO. In the industrial era, yes, it can be done.

As far as priorities go, DR, Vandelay, and Vo Mimbre are on the top of the list. (I *really* wished we had taken those bonus tiles to the SE... but Babylon's starting to get to them. :().

I can tell you right now, that DR, Vandelay, and Cijam are our top priority cities, since they can get to size 12.

Cijam makes me wish Engineers were in Vanilla Civ3. ;) I'm missing them already! :lol:

Official Report

Notes:

I = Irragate (and road)
M = Irragate (and road)
FR = Forest & Road (If there is no forest, then mine - wait until Eng. to forest)

Allocated Workers: 16 workers

Tasks:

Jungle Clearing Team - 6 workers (2 groups of 3)
Improvement Team - 10 workers (5 groups of 2)

Cities of Top Priority -

First Priority - (in the following order)

1. Vo Mimbre - Assign 1 "Improvement Team" to this city.
2. Vandelay - Assign 1 "Improvement Team" to this city.
3. Cijam - Assign 1 "Improvement Team" to this city.
4. Montpellier - Assign 1 "Improvement Team" to this city.
5. St. Octaviansburg - Assign 1 "Improvement Team" to this city.

The above teams should build irragation (2 turns), and a road (1 turn) on the labeled tiles. (Exception - move the irragated tile marked by the black line to the tile where the arrow is pointing. This tile is already irragated. So, ignore that northern tile)

Huntington - Assign 1 "Jungle Clearing Team" to this city.
Santa Lucia - Assign 1 "Jungle Clearing Team" to this city.

The above jungle clearing teams should concentrate on clearing the 3 "remaining" jungle tiles only. (This should take 15 turns), then regroup to become 3 "Improvement Teams". After turn 15, 1 worker team each will be assigned to these cities. The extra worker team will head to DR.


Important - All "Improvement Teams" should irragate, then road tiles that give the most food benefit in the following order: Flood plains, Grassland, Plains, Desert. Do -not- chop down forest unless it's marked by an "M". As the desert cities grow, keep the tiles on the floodplains for the quickest growth.

2nd Priority - (in the following order)

1. Deux Rivieres - This city's top priority now is as a settler factory, and does not need much more in the way of improved tiles.
2. Groton - This is a future (possible FP if we choose). We need to beef up our interior cities first, and build more cities (especially around this city). We need to concentrate on our first core of cities.
3. Sanction - This is a "Support" city, which we'll focus on after the core is built up.

3rd Priority - (in the following order)

1. Raven's Flight - This is a "2nd ring" city that's full of jungle. Once the interior cities are complete (15-20 turns, maybe), some attention can be given to it.
2. New Falcon's Haven - This city has about 5 usable plains, and several mountains. It won't amount to much until the industrial era.
3. Mure - This city is a sitting duck, that just won't grow. Instead of building warrior after warrior, it could build workers (atleast 2), and TRY to build a temple just to save it. It's doubtful if this city is really worth the effort. Rather, it's a free Babylonian city (thus the red color).

Below are the cities and their worked regions:

Western Fanatica
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_worked_tiles_west.jpg

Eastern Fanatica
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_worked_tiles_east.jpg

I agree with some of your assessment, I disagree with others. ;)

What do you propose in terms of worker actions? This has to factor in when the tiles are needed. I made a detailed wishlist for Audiac. Does this have your approval? Do you have better recommendations? What about Berry and the new province-less cities?

1 - I wished that was a little clearer.
2 - I'm working on existing cities, not potential ones, since I have no clue where the next city will be. (we've been placing cities like the wind this game... :undecide:). That's why I'd rather focus on existing cities. I'd build roads to future city sites, but I'm not too sure about our sentry net protecting our workers.
3 - I've made models to grow the cities up to size 12 (I'm trying to make a program that helps with this), and maximized growth and production.

To add another note (I was using an old save - didn't notice 50BC...), New Falcon's Haven would be in the 3rd priority list. It's all plains and mountains, so it can't do much yet.

Suppliment for Bootsville:

Using the worker pair north by Mont., perform the following tasks for Bootsville. Because we're at war, road first, then mine.

R = Road
M = Mine

Keep the focus on bonus tiles.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_DoI_Boots.jpg

EDIT: Have the Mure worker move to the mountain next turn (turn 1), and build a road on the iron (5 turns). See if you can ask for a few sword upgrades.

Here is another request from the Huntington people..

We would like to relocate our laborer currently toiling in the dye fields east of town to the mined grasslands due north of town, as long as the extra shields produced are not wasted. This will help us to build stuff faster.

We wold like to mine the dye fields to maximize the production from that tile.

Hope this isn't too much..

Thanks!

From,
Mayor Truckingpete, Citizens, and Villiage Council of Huntington

Originally posted by truckingpete
Here is another request from the Huntington people..

We would like to relocate our laborer currently toiling in the dye fields east of town to the mined grasslands due north of town, as long as the extra shields produced are not wasted. This will help us to build stuff faster.

We wold like to mine the dye fields to maximize the production from that tile.

Hope this isn't too much..

Thanks!

From,
Mayor Truckingpete, Citizens, and Villiage Council of Huntington

I certainly approve of that. We should be focusing on production right now, especially when we're hurting badly at it.

RM ?

I saw you are naming Dutch Military Great Leaders after me, but don't start naming bonus grassland after me ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_DoI_Boots.jpg

As Governor of Audiac I had given the following input for the 50BC turnschat:

"standing wishes"
1. if it is at all possible, please mm cities to coincide building of settlers/workers with pop growth
2. once a tile is improved, if possible please mm city in order use improved tile

strong recommendation
3. if we revolt, please mm all cities for max growth (shields and commerce are lost in anarchy) while not revolting
4. once we are republic mm all cities again

The first was well done, 2 regrettably not, 3. and 4 did not yet apply.

Questions:
What is the proper way and place to formulate such wishes?
Are they "just wishes" or is there a way to have them (usually) executed?
Can we agree on such a list?
Or can the governors create individual lists for each province?
Or is this impossible and has to be specified for each turnchat for each province for each city?

Originally posted by Rik Meleet
RM ?

I saw you are naming Dutch Military Great Leaders after me, but don't start naming bonus grassland after me ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/DG4_BC150_DoI_Boots.jpg

:lol: I didn't even think of that until you told me!

Originally posted by tao
As Governor of Audiac I had given the following input for the 50BC turnschat:

"standing wishes"
1. if it is at all possible, please mm cities to coincide building of settlers/workers with pop growth
2. once a tile is improved, if possible please mm city in order use improved tile

The first was well done, 2 regrettably not


Perhaps I have mis-understood you. I thought that you wanted to make sure that each laborer is using an improved tile. You seem to be saying that you want specific tiles worked. Which is true? If the latter, you should be specific as to which tiles you want worked for each city.

And the proper place for laborer (micro-managing) requests is in the turn chat instruction thread.

Since the war is just about over, continue building a road between MRN (Mr. Roger's Neighborhood) and Acheron with the captured workers. Also, connecting these two cities should be priority. Don't worry about working the tiles, or clearing the jungle, since these cities are pretty much corrupt right now. Once the Raven's Nest worker group is finished with the jungle to the SE, build a road to Cabaret. (on the hill, plains, and desert north of where the workers are now). Irragate the plains in Carabet's borders to give it some growth.

Chieftess,

I am starting to feel the worker plan is outdated. Do you have time to work with our citizenry to develop an updated plan?

yeah, I'll set up another discussion. Also, it's kind of hard for industrious workers to find things to do when you're so small. :)

"Forbidden Palace Preperation"

2 workers by St. Octaviansburg - After they are finished irragating, move 4 tiles north, and start building roads to the potential city site west of Cijam (1 west of the mountain), then continue to work the tiles around Ooligaria and Cijam.

2 Workers north of Mure - Have them build a road 1 NE, and then 1 N (on the bonus grassland) of their current posistion. They should then head to work on Groton.


Prepare these cities so that they are at, or near max efficiency when the FP comes online, and in this order.

Groton
Bootsville
Sanction
Montpellier
Ville de Buisson

Use the guideline I posted earlier in the thread.

For Ville de Buisson, do the following:

Mine the 3 grassland tiles in the future city radius.
Mine the 2 desert tiles within the city radius.
Do not chop down the cherry trees, err, forests.
Irragate the floodplains.

Ville de Buisson should use all of these 12 tiles. Don't let Grand Broc--er, Bricolage use Ville de Buisson's tiles, since it'll be further away from the FP. GB should be more of a coastal city (it needs a harbor).

Also, clear the 2 jungle tiles by Sanction, and the 2 jungle tiles around Groton (after the mining of the hills are complete)


Unless Santa Lucia and Huntington are getting Aqueducts, don't worry about chopping down anymore jungle. Do, however, chop down *non-dye* jungles around Acheron and Mr. Roger's. Mr. Roger's will need 12 tiles (it has a lake). Acheron can only use 6 for now.

If Chittagong were to somehow flip to us, build a road, and clear 2 jungle tiles.

With any left over workers, clear the jungle by Vo Mimbre to see if it is a bonus grassland tile. Also, clear the 3 jungle tiles in DR's territory to see if there's any bonus grassland tiles.


Cijam needs micromanagement. Move the laborer from the floodplains to the mined desert.

DR may need to be micromanaged after the temple is built. Place the taxman on a floodplain tile for growth in 3.

Just to sum up our progress:


50BC

Population 820,000 4th
Land Area 18,200sq. mi. 6th
Mfg. Goods 30 megatons 5th
Productivity 95 6th

Top 10 Cities:

Vo Mimbre 4spt
Vandelay 4spt
St. Octaviansburg 3spt
Huntington 3spt
Montpellier 3spt
Groton 3spt
Deux Rivieres 3spt
Santa Lucia 2spt
New Falcon's Haven 1spt
Raven's Flight 1spt

720AD

Population 5,324,000 2nd
Land Area 42,500sq. mi. 2nd
Mfg. Goods 169 megatons 1st [dance]
Productivity 572 2nd

Top 10 Cities:

Deux Rivieres 24spt
Groton 18spt
Vandelay 15spt
Bootsville 10spt
Montpellier 10spt
Santa Lucia 9spt
Ooligaria 8spt
Cijam 8spt
Vo Mimbre 8spt
New Falcon's Haven 7spt

Here is the final worker plan.

Plan 1 - "Core Military"

City Goal Knight Build Current Size Comment
Deux Rivieres 26spt 3 turns 12
Groton 24spt 3 turns 7 Focus on max Growth

Bootsville 22spt+ 4+ turns 6 Needs a culture push for an extra 2 shields

Montpellier 20spt 4 turns 7
Ville de Buisson ~18spt 4 turns 2 May need a courthouse for max production
Sanction ~18spt 4 turns 5 May need a courthouse for max production
Santa Lucia >18spt 4+ turns 6 Needs an aquaduct!
Cijam ~19spt 4 turns 8 Needs a courthouse and temple!
St. Octaviansburg ~20spt 4 turns 5

Worker Factories

Liebling
Grand Bricolage
Anarchyisgodville
Internal
Buto
Pithom
Carabet Voltaire (possible)

Further Notes:

Forbidden Palace Cities

Deux Rivieres - Aside from the needed micromanagement, this city is set!

Vandelay - A courthouse after the cathedral, and this will be set! While we can use the mountain, the desert will give us a quicker, and more immediate benefit when the city grows. If we need the extra shield, then mine the mountain in the south.

Santa Lucia - This is the one city that needs intensive care on the Palace Ring side. Workers should first concentrate on clearing the jungle, and then roads and mines. Only forest when the city reaches, or nears size 12.

Cijam - This one still needs a temple and courthouse to be very productive.

Huntington - Our primary Galley city. Hopefully, there's bonus grassland under the jungle to bring it over 15spt (there's bound to be corruption). It doesn't matter how fast this city builds galleys. 2-3 turns per galley, I'm happy. As long as we have atleast 10 (can carry 30 units once they're upgraded to caravels).

St. Octaviansburg - This city is prety much done, except for some mining and a road.

New Falcon's Haven - This city can only max out to 10spt, with corruption. This should be a worker factory.

Ooligaira - This city needs an aqueduct to grow, but, it will stall at size 9 with a total of 12spt.

Internal - This is another "Breadbasket City" that'll be a worker factory. It's in the middle of a desert, so there's not much that can be done about it. It will be relegated to a size 3-worker factory, but a good one at that. It should use a granary.

Vo Mibre - Can only max out to size 10.

Vandopolis - This can be very productive, but we need to clear a lot of jungle.

Carabet Voltaire - This town is set! It can't grow past size 6, so it can't use an aqueduct. Can be a catapult or galley city. It doesn't need a temple, and other improvements.

Buto - A future city that we will capture. Not much to say about it yet, as it'll need a lot of development.

Pithom - Another future city. Most likely a worker factory.


Forbidden Palace Cities

Groton - Focus on food until the city is nearly size 12. This will require constant micromanagement to get max production without wasting food.

Bootsville - This needs a culture push (Recommended: switch and rush the library). This might be able to give Bootsville the extra tile that Zarquim is holding, giving it 24spt total (enough for a 3 turn knight build instead of 4). This city is a Culture Battle Zone

Montepellier - Build roads on the forest last. Also, Irragate the wines, since it's going to use a mined plains. There is also a tile to be irragated west of the city, however, no one will use this tile. This is so that Liebling can be irragated.

Ville de Buisson - This is gonna be our productive little Hamlet. The worker that is building the road should irragate the floodplain 1 tile north the next turn, then irragate/road the next floodplain. VdB will stay on the irragated floodplains and grassland tiles until size 7, in which it will start using the forests. It would be best to wait for the city to grow to size 12 before foresting. This can be achieved by building workers onto the city. There may or may not be a need for a courthouse (depending on the amount of corruption). 18 spt is the base limit for a knight every 4 turns.

Sanction - Like VdB, it's a productive little city that hinges on 1 corrupt shield. In both of these cities, we can disband some of our warriors (while filling those cities with pikes), or rush the knight to not waste shields.

Anarchy - This city is going to be a worker factory. It needs a granary, and produce only workers. to build onto surrounding cities.

Liebling - This will be rather cramped, but should build a granary, and have the forests chopped in the process. This will become a worker factory.




Worker Factories

Liebling
Grand Bricolage
Anarchyisgodville
Internal
Buto
Pithom
Carabet Voltaire (possible)

Here's the city plan (huge image):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/DG4_AD720_mainland_cityplan.jpg

May I ask you to reconsider the above list. I looked at it and I suppose that Ooligaria and New Falcon's Heaven can do better than you project. A closer looked confirmed me in my suspicion. Thus I stopped checking the other cities. ;)

I also believe that we have no urgent need for 6-7 so-called worker factories. Our industrious workers are fast, but not optimally managed. IMHO it would be enough be build some more whenever a city reaches the limit 6 or 12 and can finish an additional worker in 1-2 turns.

Low production cities should build e.g. catapults or galleys. But since we are commercial, all our current cities except Finklewink and Almaren are sort of productive if managed properly and even more once we trigger wltkd by trading for overseas luxuries. Thus growth to at least size 6 should get priority.

I will post a more detailed turnchat criticism with build recommendations once the turnchat summary is posted.

The worker factories aren't for working tiles. ;) They're for building into cities to get them up to size 12. I also know that a few cities could do better, but what I was really aiming for was the core cities for knight production.

This thread is going to be the continuation of last term. It's not an official elected thread, so I don't think it needs its' own thread. At any rate, I'd like the president to look at the above graphic. The colored boxes are the tiles that the repsected city must use. Please focus on our 9 core cities, and save Santa Lucia for last, since we'll need all available workers.

Chieftess: My use of terrain improvements and of workers seems to be fundamentally different than yours. At least it would be very different from the way we did it in the last two terms.[list=a] I irrigate more grasland to grow faster.
I especially try to reach pop 6 and then trigger wltkd in remote cities to overcome corruption. Prime examples: Mure, Acherin, Mr. Roger's.
I consider pop size and don't improve terrain (e.g. clear jungle) that will not be worked for a long long time. Prime examples: Huntington, Groton, Sanction, Mr. Roger's.
I plan ahead on culture expansion and improve terrain which will be accessible soon, e.g. Sanction.
I devise worker plans minimizing wasteful worker movements. Prime example: ignored wish for plain irrigation at New Falcon's Heaven, hill mining near St. O.
With industrial workers, I never ever build huge worker gangs, because ithis neglects many other important tasks. Prime examples: near Montpellier or Internal.
When there are improvable tiles available, I improve them before clearing jungle, e.g. Mr. Rogers.[/list=a] Not all of these points are controled by you, many depend on the DP.

Since there is still no clear rule on how the DP acts on worker terms, my opinion may get ignored. As in the past, I will point out some of the (IMO) mistakes made in my turnchat criticisms.

PS: I consider it very very bad to post graphics as wide as you did, because it significantly reduces readability of the tread.

Some more comments:[list=1] You completely ignore the option to plant forest. This gives +2 shields on grasland (e.g. Deux Riviere!) instead of +1 a mine adds.
You do not have the most meaningful terrain improvement for Mure listed: mining the iron mountain.
I completely fail to understand why you mark all plains at Anarchyisgodville as "irrigate". The sensible way is to mine some and achieve a balance with wltkd at pop 6.
As of the last turnchat (720ad) your map is outdated: by culture expansion, we have new tiles toi work.
[/list=1]

I never ignored the option to plant forest. You'll see that where-ever I put "F", that means, "Forest".

I'm very sorry that the DoI plan once again caused harm in the last turnchat.

Chieftess: you seem to prefer mining grasland. This is far from being always optimal.

Just look at our cities Huntington and St.Octaviansburg. Both are close to the capital and thus very low on corruption. They should be among the top cities of Fanatica. To achieve this, they first and foremost must grow to size 12. Both are now size 7 and will only grow in 15/17 turns. That is very bad.

Therefore in the turnchat instructions I explicitely asked to irrigate the cleared jungle of St.O. to get 3 food. In this case we even have 2 currently unworked mined hills to give us shields, once we are done with growth!

I see the fundamental disagreement between you and me as follows:

Chieftess once made a plan saying for (nearly) each tile, how it should be improved. This might be correct once we work all tiles. In the meantime, we perform "poorly".

tao looks at the current need of the cities. He is e.g. willing to irrigate now (fast growth) and use the industrious workers to change irrigation to mines once the growth is over.

Chieftess' instructions are fine -- if the governors don't care or know -- to help the DP in easy decisions.

tao's instructions are best for Fanatica.

tao's position: Use Chieftess' instructions unless a knowing governor orders otherwise.

chieftess position: <please specify>

My position: Governor's (and the DoI) post requests - the President (and by extension, the DP) determines if they should act upon those requests or not, and the order they perform the actions.

-- Ravensfire

I noticed that in the last turnchat a large group of workers was moved out of Alluares to work somewhere else in our beloved country. Although I understand completely that workers are needed throughout entire Fanatica, I would like to stress the production potential of the Alluares' Cities.
Located very close to our capital, Vandopolis, but Mr. Roger's Neiberhood as well, can become a large production core.

But we have to clear out the jungle first. I would like to see that extra workers will be send to Alluares, to improve the surrounding area of Vandopolis quickly, so that Vandopolis will have the room to grow, just like the, once isolated, city of Huntington.

Although I don't prefer that option, we could, of course, always try to build a few more workers, maybe even in Alluares. The negative side-effect however is that city growth and production are slowed significantly. Please post, or PM, a more detailed plan of worker actions in the Alluares province and if more workers are needed to deal with the jungle quickly and effectively.

I agree.

Mure has much more improved tiles, than it can work for centuries.
1 worker should stay, 3 move where they are needed.

Sanction does not need 5 workers; 3 is plenty.

Bootsville is completely improved. It does not need 3 workers. (And forest planting is folly, because it kills growth.)

Working forest in Ville de Buisson turns it into a 2 turn settler factory.

Bootsville can only use so many land tiles. Sure it can use the coast, but that only gives commerce. Yes, we can use forest once it hits size 12. Also, there's the option of adding workers to cities. It *DOES* work. It's more powerful than you think.

Before deciding to add workers to cities, please remember that there are lots of places where those workers can be even more usefull. For example to clear the jungle in Alluares :D.

I really think it is a waste of shields and time to add workers to cities, while you still desperately need them somewhere else.

So please consider sending back some workers to Alluares to clear the nasty jungle next turnchat, especially if, as tao pointed out, they are not needed at the moment. When 3 native workers are creating a forest, where there is already a mine in place, I suggest to first use them for serious business...

In general, I agree with gert-janl. But I would have joined at least 3 workers to Groton many turns ago to speed the wonder building. And I would still do it!

Instructions that I'd like Boots to follow, if possible.

1 - PLEASE wake up the workers planting a forest in Bootsville!

2 - Clear the jungle by Santa Lucia. Clear 2 of them that are next to the river, and 2 more elsewhere. (Please look at the guideline in the DoI thread).

3 - Plant 3 more forests by Ville du Buisson. 1 and 2 tiles SE, and the plains tile 2SE, 1NE. Also, have Ville du Buisson use all three floodplain tiles. Have anarchy continue to build workers into the city.

4 - In Montpellier, move the worked irragated tile to the mined grassland 2NE of the city. Build 2 more workers in it from Liebling. Ignore those irragated tiles. Thanks for wasting them. When the city grows, use the 2 empty mined tiles.

5. Mine the 2 desert tiles with roads 1E, and 1E, 1SE of Vo Mimbre.

Need i say that most of these instructions I would NEVER EVER give? Irrigation for growth is correct, not mined desert at Vo Mimbre, nor forest planting. And Liebling would be a prime city with little corruption. Building workers is here is IMHO sheer crazyness.

Vo Mimbre has 2 surpluss food. The only tiles left are 6 desert tiles. DR is using the other tiles. Yes, it could get to size 12 with irragate, but I want production out of them right now. We can irragate when rails come.

Ville du Buisson only needs 4 more tiles. It's gonna have a TON of surpluss food. That's why I'm saying forests. Again, I'm focusing on production. Size 12 with 8 surpluss food is wasteful. Foresting is a common middle ages strategy. (Read Cracker's Forest strategy guide). Building workers into cities is *NOT* sheer craziness. Look at the LKentdar AW61 succession game. We kept adding workers into cities with a worker factory. Result? We had 50% of the world population for much of the game, even with 7 other civs around. These were done with worker factories. We're making 200gpt right now! That's a LOT of income. Gold, though, isn't always going to win wars. Production wins wars.

Cracker's Forestation Strategies

http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/forestry_graphics/final_chart_white.jpg

Forestry (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/forestry.htm)


Worker Build Strategies in Action

LK61 Succession Game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78974)

The capital was on settlers only, then, after we had enough, workers only, which were built into the surround cities to quickly increase production.

You can't convince me.

Look e.g., at Vo Mimbre: It has 20 food. Thus it needs 4 more to reach size 12. The only way to do it is irrigate the desert. 4 tiles give 4 food, 4 shields, 8 commerce (even without GA). If you MINE 2 tiles, you get 0 food, 2 less pop, thus 2 tiles with 4 shields, 4 commerce, in total 4 less commerce, 2 less population. q.e.d.

And I was arguing that Liebling should GROW, NOT build workers. I was not arguing against joining workers to it.

And look e.g. at the craziness in Mr. Rogers Neigborhood. It builds granary even while it is not growing. And that, because it has no irrigation.

And NO, I would NOT join many workers to cities, because they will soon be needed to a) connect and improve conquered lands and b) to build railroads.

And of course, once we have rr, we need to mm and maybe rework city tiles, and once again after hospitals. But that is standard procedure.

And the forest operations means "planting and harvesting" to get the extra shields, NOT to plant forest to stiffle growth.

Once our core cities are at size 12, we can continue to build workers in worker factories. If everything was going according to plan, we'd BE at size 12 in our core cities already! We'd have plenty of tiles worked. They don't work because some governors have plans of their own (not directed at you, specifically). Bootstoots isn't the best at worker management. We both told him, for example, that Bootsville didn't need another forest. He's having workers build a forest now. I've told him to clear out Santa Lucia, and other cities south of it. He hasn't done that yet.

Here, we're working with people who have different skill levels and different strategies. So, if one person decides to build all commerce improvements, instead of the plan, then things go heywire.

BTW, if you're concerned about your defenses (and the defense of the nation), PLEASE include more muskets in your build queues.

I'd rather defend with Muskets and Cavalry, not Bank Tellers and Fishermen.

If I may be so bold as to enter this discussion.

It seems to me that you are forgetful of the fundament of economics: Resources are scarce, and thus have to be used in the most efficient way to ensure that one gets the most possible output from every tiny bit of input.

In other words: Why use valuable worker turns on irrigating desert tiles when they can be used elsewhere, to net a greater result in terms of increased tile efficiency. What CT is referring to here is better use of worker turns. I assume you have done your calculations as well, but to me it is quite obvious that CT's idea is more efficient than yours.

Sincerely
Paalikles

Originally posted by Paalikles
I assume you have done your calculations as well, but to me it is quite obvious that CT's idea is more efficient than yours. I gave "mathematical" proof for Vo Mimbre. Please can you give me any basis for what you call "obvious"?

Is it "obvious" to you, why Mr. Roger's builds granary but has no irrigation? I would be very interest to hear your arguments.

Is it "obvious" to you, why Liebling should build workers instead of grow asap to size 12. Please explain.

I don't understand your definition of "efficency". :confused: :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by Chieftess
I'd rather defend with Muskets and Cavalry, not Bank Tellers and Fishermen. I'd rather have cavalry because of the commerce (research) power than knights. And I'd rather have railroads faster. Etc. What we need is a good mix. And at least to me, it is "obvious" ;) that Audiac cities should go for commerce because of the terrain available. And IMHO it is a significant error that we are currently building way too many knights/cavalry. I would build some more libraries and especially universities in high commerce cities. Our army is more than able to win against both Russia and Babylon now.

My deepest concern was the irrigation of desert.
I have not ordered, nor was I able if I wanted, construction of a granary in Mr. Roger's. FYI - I lack access to specific info on any of those cities in mention - mainly because I have little sparetime to get fully involved with the game at current, but also because finding updated screenshots of an area has proven somewhat difficult.

And now for my thoughts on efficiency:
if you produce a given amount of output, say x units of a good, and you minimize costs - e.g use an optimal amount of input (lowest required amount of input for the given output), that might be considered effective production.

Second, if you produce x units, and the demand for that good is lower, say x-1, then the amount produced that exceeds the demanded amount could be considered ineffective production - in all the time resources are being spent on something that is not demanded, when those same resources could have been applied to produce other goods.

Thirdly, in civ3 context, I reckon that the Kaldor-Hicks criteria for efficiency could be applied: If terrain is improved in one sector that is relatively high in productivity, for it to become more productive, with the result that some resources (here workers) have to be taken from elsewhere to do so, resulting in a slight loss for the sector those resources where withdrawn from, then the descission was effective if the net benefit of the nation as a whole is larger than the reduction for the specific sector.

You could also apply the Pareto-criteria: Assume you have 2 cities, city A and B. They have the same amount of worked tiles, and the same growth rate. You then improve 1 tile in city A, whilst B has no changes. Net result is increased efficiency - as city A is more productive, whilst city B has not suffered a loss.

Then there is the cost-benefit analysis:
If the same cities A and B faces the descission of whether to improve a tile in A or in B - the planners have to evaluate which improvement that gives the greatest benefit (benefit-cost=net benefit). It follows that the most efficient alternative is the one that gives the largest net benefit

This was today's lesson in microeconomics for civplayers.

I don't get the impression that your argument is based on the fact that Vo Mimbre is right next to the capital Deux Riviere and thus extremely low in corruption. And that 1 worker can do the irrigation and roading of the 4 tiles under discussion in 14 turns, whereas the same worker needs 18 turns for clearing and mining 1(!) jungle tile in a city with much higher corruption.

This whole argument IMHO is proof positive that looking at the save is essential. IMHO you came to wrong evaluations because you did NOT look at the save.

quot erat demonstrandum

Originally posted by tao
This whole argument IMHO is proof positive that looking at the save is essential. IMHO you came to wrong evaluations because you did NOT look at the save.

quot erat demonstrandum

Actually, your conclusion would be based on your belief that he did not have correct information.

The source of that information is irrelevant - had the Governor in question bothered to put some information in their Government thread, that information might have been sufficient.

But I digress.

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by tao
I don't get the impression that your argument is based on the fact that Vo Mimbre is right next to the capital Deux Riviere and thus extremely low in corruption. And that 1 worker can do the irrigation and roading of the 4 tiles under discussion in 14 turns, whereas the same worker needs 18 turns for clearing and mining 1(!) jungle tile in a city with much higher corruption.

This whole argument IMHO is proof positive that looking at the save is essential. IMHO you came to wrong evaluations because you did NOT look at the save.

quot erat demonstrandum

I DO look at the save! I even make models of the city in an editor (city only) to see the best possible outcome for production!

We are well on our way to building a complete railroad network. I just want to make 2 comments:[list=1] when starting a new tile, it is enough to move only 1 (one) worker onto it. This worker can build a road next turn and only then send several workers.
I at least road each and every tile (with 1 worker only) in order to be able to clear pollution faster
[/list=1]

That's what I usually do. I was starting to get tired at 2:00am...

Since there is a new DLF, and the last instruction has been given to bootstoots, this office can now be closed.