This game has started, anyone interested can view a detailed list of settings at post 46, posts 47-49 contain available downloads, the scenario file and two epic games, one on emporer level, one on monarch.

Another unusual PBEM, first of all this one will take time to set up because there will be discussion as to how exactly the changes will be implemented. Also I am a bit overloaded with PBEMs, but should be ending 2 in about a week.

What makes this PBEM unusual is that it will be modded, all the changes will be done through the editor in such a way there will not be a need to download the scenario, although i will make it available for the players if they want. All changes will be discussed here and when complete I will post a summary, in addition I will send an email detailing all the changes to each player. The changes are not going to be overwhelming or complicated.

Basically, the idea for this PBEM is to make all the civs equal, take away their individuality, but in a way that makes each civ much more powerful and presents more opportunities for the players. How I am going to accomplish this is to give each civ all 8 of the traits, meaning each civ will have every available bonus in the game. In addition, we will not be playing with the normal units, instead we will play with all the UU, every civ will be able to build every UU, most of the normal units will be removed from the game.

The upgrade chain will have some discussion, basically I have a plan already, but am willing to allow the players to voice their opinion about my decisions. Because the UU are, well they are unique as the name says, I feel it will be beneficial for them to stick around longer and provide more options to the players, thus their upgrade will be delayed. Forexample, most ancient age uu will not upgrade to anything until the middle ages, at which point they will upgrade to another uu, preferably. This can of course be debated, I am not planning to start this until at least next weekend or longer depending upon if there is any interest.

Additionally, there will be no Great Wonders. The Great Wonders will be changed to Small Wonders, meaning each civ will always have the opportunity to build them. Some wonders will have their benefits modified, for example, The Great Library, we can't have everyone owning a wonder which gives them everyone else's research. This is in keeping with the idea behind this PBEM, to put the civs on equal footing, you will not be able to build a wonder which gives you a benefit not available to other players.

There will be a few other minor changes. The ivory luxury resource is going to be renamed elephants and become a strategic resource which will be required to build War Elephants. Elephants will provide an additional food and shield as well as the commerce they already do. To compensate for the removal of a luxury resource, one of the bonus resources will be changed to a luxury resource, probably tobacco which would most likely provide 2 extra commerce instead of the one it currently does.

Philosophy will have its benefit of providing a bonus tech to the first player who researches it removed, as this would give that player a benefit no longer avialable to the others. To compensate, there may be a modification made to Philosophy depending upon the outcome of discusion and any suggestions.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Concerning game settings:

There will be four human players, since the civs are basically the same, individual civs are going to be first claimed by a player of that nationality. For example, if someone from Germany wants to play, they get first choice of the Germans if they want it. Players are welcome to provide custom information for their civs. There will also be four AI. This will be a huge world, perhaps archipelego (however you spell it) or maybe continents. Either 60 or 70 % Water. Normal climate / temp /age. Normal victory conditions. Accelerated production will be off. Barbarians will be RAGING. Difficulty will ve Emporer or higher.

If nobody shows interest in this game I will cry. :cry: :cry:

I show interest.
But I won't be able to discuss much until Sunday night. Gotta work and then be out of town.

I show interest.

I will hold a spot for you, but that might not be necessary because I am worried other players won't like the uniqueness factor being removed from all the civs.

Count me in! I am always for something original and new, I hope others are also. Your idea is very interesting, giving all civ's the same opportunaties will make it a very fair game and probably a very millitaristic one.

I would like to try this. But I am wary that such extensive changes in the the editor will cause some "slips". I don't mean to slight your editing skills, of course! But I've found the slight risk of something being changed magnifies for each change until the chance of having a game running as intended clean through to the Modern Age is actually not as high as you might think. Are you going to run a solo test of the changes first? (Or is someone else going to do the changes so you don't have a map advantage.)

If the map is going to be that heavily edited, you might as well "even up" the starting positions and make sure resources and luxuries are pretty fairly distributed.
No Civ Preference (of course! Since they are all the same!) But I would prefer not to be "pink". :p

Rubberjello, i understand your concerns, i also meant to mention another possibility which might slow down the start of the game, once all the decisions have been made i will set up a scenario, available to the participants to test themselves of course, in which i will give myself 20 cities & all the techs w/ reduced builds for the wonders / units & make sure there are no problems. As far as the units are concerned and assigning all the attributes to every civ, i have already set up a similar scenario before and there were no problems. Although i was playing on regent level, far outdistanced any of the AI before i got halfway through the middle ages, and so I retired.

in general, as long as i am not careless about the editing, the types of changes will not affect anything which would cause an error because no pediaicon changes or art or other text changes will be necessary.

i will not be editing the map and planned on using a randomly generated map which would not be revealed to anyone including myself, the map itself will be generated like a normal pbem game. how this works if you are not familiar with the process is i create a scenario in th editor using just the custom rules option. then in the multiplayer screen under game type (i think) i select load scenario. a screen comes up with all the scenarios i have saved, i select this one and it loads. then i put in all the player's data and hit launch, when i hit launch is when the map is built.

i am not opposed to having a neutral party set up the map, set passwords, and start the game, but with the changes in the editor i fear another persons involvement might put the stability of the game at risk, we might suddenly get errors i had already checked. Another alternative is for me to build / modify the map, without assigning any starts and select reveal map option, but that is another issue to be discussed among the players.

If you are still okay with this it looks like we have our four players.

To all players: I will begin posting the changes for discussion later today, please either join in discussions or refrain from criticizing later on when you dont like the settings / changes. DogBoy will not be available until Sunday, but that should not hold us up.

This is the list of normal units:

settler n/c
worker n/c
scout include / exclude ? (chasqui scout)
explorer include / exclude ? (conquistadors)
marine n/c
modern paratrooper n/c
warrior exclude, but popped from huts
archer basic barbarian ? (several)
spearman exclude (several)
swordsman advanced barbarian ? (several)
chariot exclude (several)
horseman exclude (mounted warrior)
pikeman exclude (swiss mercenaries)
longbowman include / exclude ? (berserks)
musketman exclude (musketers)
knight exclude (several)
rifleman n/c
cavalry exclude (several)
infantry n/c
tank exclude (panzer)
mechanical infantry n/c
modern armor n/c
catapult n/c
cannon exclude (hwach'a)
artillery n/c
radar artillery n/c
cruise missile n/c
tactical nuke n/c
ICBM n/c
galley exclude (dromon)
caravel barbarian ship ? (carrack)
frigate exclude (man-o-war)
galleon n/c
ironclad n/c
transport n/c
carrier n/c
submarine n/c
destroyer n/c
battlehsip n/c
AEGIS cruiser n/c
nuclear submarine n/c
fighter n/c
bomber n/c
helicopter n/c
jet fighter exclude (F-15)
stealth fighter n/c
stealth bomber n/c
leader n/c
army n/c
medieval infantry include / exclude ? (immortals)
guerilla n/c
trebuchet n/c
cruiser n/c
curragh n/c
paratropper n/c
TOW infantry n/c
flak n/c
mobile SAM n/c
privateer n/c

-n/c means no change
-for excluded units, a uu of superior quality at the same tech, or an equivalent unit at earleir tech is listed, several indicates more than one
-scouts / explorer might be considered to be included despite the uu because they have no attack values and are cheaper to build, in the case of explorer they require no resources as their counterpart uu does
-warriors will still be popped from huts, no way to change this, we need to establish what early uu they will upgrade to
-i am contemplating changing the barbarians to archers / swordsman to make them stronger
-although berserks replace longbows, they are much more expensive to build
-considering making the barbarian ships caravels to make them stronger
-although immortals are a cheaper earlier equivalent of medieval infantry, perhaps medieval infantry need to ne included at feudalism to give an upgrade possibility for other uu

List of UU

UUs technology adm brf old upgrade

jaguar warrior warrior code 1/1/2 swordsman
bowman warrior code 2/2/1 1/0/1 longbowman
hoplite bronze working 1/3/1 musketman
impi bronze working 1/2/2 musketman
legionary iron working 3/3/1 medieval infantry
immortals iron working 4/2/1 guerilla
war chariot the wheel 2/1/2 knight
rider chivalry 4/3/3 cavalry
mounted warrior horseback riding 3/1/2 knight
musketeer gunpowder 2/5/1 2/0/1 rifleman
samurai chivalry 4/4/2 cavalry
war elephant chivalry 4/3/2 cavalry
cossack military tradition 6/3/3 none
panzer motorized transportatin 16/8/3 modern armor
man-o-war magnetism 4/2/5 4/1/2 none
F-15 rocketry 8/4/1 6/0/2 none
keshik chivalry 4/2/2 calvary
conquistador astronomy 3/2/2 none
berserk invention 6/2/1 guerilla
sipahi military tradition 8/3/3 none
gallic swordsman iron working 3/2/2 medieval infantry
ansar warrior chivalry 4/2/3 cavalry
numidian mercenary bronze working 2/3/1 musketman
hwach'a metallurgy 0/0/1 8/1/1 artillery
enkidu warrior none 1/2/1 pikeman
three man chariot the wheel 2/2/2 knight
carrack astronomy 2/2/4 galleon
swiss mercenary feudalism 1/4/1 rifleman
chasqui scout none 1/1/2 explorer
javelin thrower warrior code 2/2/1 longbowman
dromon map making 2/1/3 2/1/2 caravel

additional:
-samurai does not require horses
-war elephants require neither horses / iron, have +1 HP bonus
-cossack has blitz ability
-panzer has blitz ability
-man-o-war has enslave ability
-F-15 has lethal bombardment ability and stealth attack
-keshik requires no iron
-conquistadors treat all terrian as roads
-berserks have amphibious attack ability
-hwach'a has lethal bombardment ability
-carrack transports 3 units
-chasqui scout ignore movement costs of mountains / hills
-javelin thrower had enslave ability
-dromons transport 2 units, have lethal sea bombardment ability


my thoughts on upgrades:

-jaguar warrior > gallic swordsman > samurai > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-warrior > bowman > longbowman > guerilla > TOW infantry
-impi, enkidu warrior, hoplite, numidian mercanary > swiss mercenary > musketeer > rifleman > infantry > mechanical infantry
-legionary, immortals > guerilla > TOW infantry
-war chariot, three man chariot > mounted warrior > keshik > ansar warrior > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-rider, war elephant > sipahi > panzer > modern armor
-chasqui scout > conquistador
-javelin thrower > berserk > marines
-catapult > trebuchet > hwach'a > artillery > radar artillery
-curragh > dromon > carrack > galleon > transport
-fighter > F-15
-man-o-war > cruiser > AEGIS cruiser
-ironclad > destroyer


Golden Ages will need to be removed from most of the UU and we will need to decide which units are capable of generating a GA, no matter how many units have the capability, each civ will still only get one GA.

I'm sorry Predased. You've obviously given this a lot of thought and are pretty practiced at it, so I didn't mean to cast aspersions at your editing ability. :D

I vote:

Include Scouts
Exclude Explorers
Exclude Archer
Include Longbowmen
Exclude Med. Inf.

Give Barbs Carracks
Popped Warriors upgrade to Swords?

In terms of GA triggers...Small Wonders will not trigger them, right? In terms of units... very good question. How to set them so the AI will take advantage of them also? Choose 2-3 each age?

Popped Warriors upgrade to Swords?

which sword unit do you think they should upgrade to, legionary or immortals?

In terms of GA triggers...Small Wonders will not trigger them, right? In terms of units... very good question. How to set them so the AI will take advantage of them also? Choose 2-3 each age?

no the small wonders wont trigger the GA, but there will be enough barbarians around via game settings to not have to worry about that even if you dont go to war. i am against giving the GA to any of the ancient age units, to help avoid a depotism GA, and maybe just assign it to nearly all the middle ages units plus the panzer & F-15. as far as middle ages units, leave it off the swiss mercenary maybe as there is still a possibility you would be under despotism when you get feudalism.

in case anyone wants to take a look at things so far or do any premature testing, here is the scenario with the unit changes, the upgrade path follows my previous post although this is not final. in addition, the 'starts golden age' ability has been removed from all ancient age uu & swiss mercenaries. explorers were also removed as i agree w/ rubberjello on that point, who builds explorers anyway?

in addition, the ivory luxury resource had been renamed elephants, changed to a strategic resource which is required to build war elephants (note, it will still also be required for statue of zeus) and its value was chaged from 0/0/2. to compensate, tobacco was changed form a bonus resource to a luxury resource and its value was changed from 0/0/1 to 0/0/2.

no other changes have been made to this scenario

even though the file is small, i had to zip it in order to attach it, otherwise it was not an appropriate file type

I definitely want to play this if you don't already have your four players.

I definitely want to play this if you don't already have your four players.

I already have four players, but i could make this a five player game, mostly because you said you "definitely" want to play. I am resistant to going more than 5 because of potentials for drop outs / delays. I cannot comment on you or krabius, but i am very confident rubberjello / dogboy will not drop out or cause significant unnecessary delays (delay for no reason) i'll add you, but increasing to 5 players means everyone, myself included, will need to PM a password to a neutral party, who I might use to set up the game depending upon their ability to handle the scenario properly, which isn't too difficult, but does have the potential to screw something up, especially if they decided to open the scenario and play with it before starting the game even though they dont intend to save any changes.

If 2-3 more people decide to join between now and the actual start of the PBEM taking the total to 7 or 8 players then I'll just make it two different PBEMs with the same settings just different players. If only 7 players, then someone will be in both games. Being that I am the host I will reserve that option for myself, but since I have a load of PBEMs and since the Ultimate 2 Player PBEM is beginning to become even more complicated than I originally thought I am likely to pass this option on to someone else. So anyone else interested feel free to sign up.

Recently, I have also decided it will take longer than i first thought to start this game because once all the decisions have been made and I have it fully modded it needs to be thoroughly tested because i would hate to get to the industrial ages and get an error or something, like rubberjello commented about. because it will be awhile before the actual PBEM starts there is also the possibilty one of the players might drop out or not be able to play at that time.

Testing won't be mandatory of all players, but if you don't test then don't complain later. What I will do is make all the changes and save the scenario we want to play. I will then import those settings into another scenario which will be used for testing. The test scenario will have settings which ridiculously speeds up the game. In general settings, both the min & max research time will be set to 1 turn, which means you can set research to 10% & still discover a new tech every turn, after what, about 80 turns you have researched every tech. It will be a 4 player PBEM test w/ 2 AI, this will help verify interaction between players, while you are testing you can just control both of the human players and i will make any suggesitons of things to watch for. It should not take long to verify everything, maybe a couple weeks AFTER all the other decisions are made, the test has to include the exact settings for the PBEM, but some people get really impatient aout waiting for a PBEM to start, including myself.

In addition to the tech thing, i will change every terrain for the test so it generates like 5 food, 10 shields, 5 commerce. then every civ will start with 10 cities. In this way, not only will your research fly by, but cities will grow rapidly and you can build things rapidly. Basically, we'll just be double checking the upgrade chain, that units still require proper resources, and that no additional changes have slipped in, little things that are easy to notice. Also that the wonders will be able to be built and require the proper resources, tech, etc, and that all are small wonders, meaning if you build them in one civ the other can still build them.

If you're up for the wait, and especially if you agree to help test, then you are welcome to join. Please feel free to make any comments about the units i have posted above I will shortly be making my suggestions for the wonders changes. I have already discovered the potential for an error, if all great wonders are eliminated and you open the civolopedia then select great wonders, there are none there and the game is likely to crash. to eliminate even that possibility there will be one great wonder, but it will not have any effects or generate any culture, i am thinking the Great Wall, maybe one of the AI will still be stupid enough to build it, but hey, if the AI is stupid enough to dedicate that many shields to building a worthless wonder then let it.

I'm willing to wait and I'm willing to test. I probably will only be able to make one move per day, but I'm not currently playing in any PBEM games, so I'm not going to get civ-burnout. I might go on a business trip for a few days every once in a while, but I can install C3C on my laptop and try to connect. Otherwise I probably have a back-up player in my office who will play a few turns if I can't.

Great Wonders whose attribute will have to be changed in order to convert to small wonders:

(cannot have small wonders which put improvements in every city or doubles happiness of other improvements, editor will not allow)



Great Library: (grants advances discovered by 2 civs, ridiculous for every civ) suggest gives two free advances

Pyramids: (puts granary in every city) suggest one content citizen all cities, doubles growth rate (free granary for local city) allows city size 2 (free aqueduct)

Oracle: (double happiness of temples) suggest 1 extra happy citizen in all cities, but requires 5 temples to build

Great Wall: (puts walls in every city) suggest used to prevent "No Great Wonders" crash, remains a Great Wonder but has no benefit, value, culture

Sun Tzu's: (puts barrakcs in every city) suggest allows veteran ground / sea / air units, reduces war weariness, but requires 5 barracks

Sistine Chapel: (doubles happiness of cathedrals) suggest 3 content citizens in all cities, but requires 5 cathedrals

Hoover Dam: (puts hydro plant in all cities) suggest in additon to must be by a river, must be coastal, then increases food / trade / shields in water, doubles production, pollution -1 (note these are all city specific)

The Interent: (puts research lab in all cities) suggest gives 2 free advances

Temple of Artemis: (puts temple in all cities) suggest 1 content citizen in all cities, but requires 5 temples

United Nations: (allows diplomatic victory, unnecessary for every civ, does anyone go for diplomatic victory in pbem?) suggest acts as another forbidden palace

This is all i can think of that needs changed, also need a possible suggestion for a benefit from philosophy besides it gives 1st civ to research a bonus tech, or there will be no benefit at all reverting back to vanilla civ. suggestions are welcome about anything, will try to leave this open for discussion for a week before testing begins.

I suggest that the UN be kept "as is" and be the only Great Wonder. There is no way that a diplo victory should be attainable in a PBEM game. (If there are any AIs around still then, then it adds a little spice to the game!)

The Great Wall should be a small wonder and at least give the anti-barb bonus. Suggest 1 Content citizen in every city on same landmass? (Content = feeling more secure?)

I like all the other suggestions. For Hoover, is there anyway to lower pollution to absolute minimum/none?

I like all the other suggestions. For Hoover, is there anyway to lower pollution to absolute minimum/none?

In the editor you have a pollutin factor you can adjust either up or down for improvements / wonders. By setting the pollution to -1 it takes off one pollution caused by another improvement, like a factory, offshore platform, power plant, but then there are other factors such as population which cause pollution.

To make it so that the hoover dam eliminates pollution from a city i could set this to a very high negative number, i.e. -20 or whatever is the most negative number i could set it to. that's a good idea for hoover's.

i wanted a second forbidden palace w/out being under communism gov't, which is why i suggested that for UN, but we could do as you suggested w/ the Great Wall, leave the UN as is, but subtract the culture it generates because this would prevent someone from getting a special bonus from the wonder, & yes some players will build a wonder just for the culture. then maybe something else could act as a second forbidden palace or we could just stay w/ one.

i just realized there is no golden age against barbarians, the only way to get a GA in this game will be war. in addition to everything else, we need to decide what units to give GA to. thre will still be AI, so i dont think we should give it to all ancient age untis, but maybe some of you want it included in some ancient age units. need any suggestions / discussions finished by this weekend so i can complete the scenario and send out the beta pbem for a quick minimum 2 weeks (hopefully) test for errors.

right now i am still wondering about upgrade of popped warriors, rubberjello suggested swordsman, so i was thinking legionaries. but then i also thought about making them upgradable to javelin throwers, an interesting uu. also what should we use for barbarians, the standard units or something different, don't think we should necessarily give them uu, which would make the barbarian units different than any the players could have. i guess i could also change some of the adm for the barbarians if necessary.

also, the military academy small wonder allows you to build armies, but only in the city the military academy is in, maybe Sun Tzu's should also let you build armies, then we could potentially have 2 army building cities, there is still a limit placed on the number of armies based upon how many cities you have, so would want Su Tzu's to also have other benefits.

Ok, finally got around to answering. I had to print off this entire thread and take it to the "throne" just to have some peace and quiet and read it. Anyway, here are my suggestions:

As for units, everything looks good to me except:
-Get rid of archers. They are the same as javelin throwers so we don't need them.
-Get rid of longbowmen. Zerks replace them so we don't need them. Yes, zerks are more expensive so if you want them, you gotta pay for them.
-Get rid of scouts. Chasquit scout replaces that.
-Get rid of explorer. Conquistador replaces that.
-Get rid of medieval infantry. Immortals replace them.

As for upgrade, everything looks good to me except:
-Warriors upgrade to legionnaires, which upgrades to immortal, to samurai, which upgrades to guerilla, to infantry, TOW infantry. Basically I took the bowman and longbowman out. I added samurai which is better than immortal.
-Javenlin throwers upgrades to zerks, not longbowman.

As for great/small wonders:
-The only great wonder we need is the internet. Keep that but get rid of it's characteristics. The reason I say keep this one is I doubt the AI will be around this time. It would be unfair to have the AI build the UN, or even the great wall and waste shields on them.
-Make the UN a small wonder. It's use will produce an infantry unit every 5 turns. The UN right now is the "world police" so why not make it that way in the game. If you want to keep it as another forbidden palace, that's fine also.
-Make the great wall a small wonder. The real great wall was built to prevent rival nations from coming into China and stealing goods and leaving. So in the game, the great wall will produce one extra commerce in the city square of all cities. If you think that is too much, then it will only produce something like 5 extra commerce in the city that built it.

As for techs:
-Philosophy needs to go back to vanilla civ.

I hope I'm not too late to get my suggestions added.

Okay, I have a few disagreements with your unit suggestions, and would appreciate some other players to sound in with their opinions / suggestions:


-Get rid of archers. They are the same as javelin throwers so we don't need them.
-Get rid of longbowmen. Zerks replace them so we don't need them. Yes, zerks are more expensive so if you want them, you gotta pay for them.
-Get rid of scouts. Chasquit scout replaces that.

As for upgrade, everything looks good to me except:
-Warriors upgrade to legionnaires, which upgrades to immortal, to samurai, which upgrades to guerilla, to infantry, TOW infantry. Basically I took the bowman and longbowman out. I added samurai which is better than immortal.


-archers are only going to be kept if we give them to barbarians
-longbowman i am still iffy about, bowman needs to remain because it is a UU, it needs an upgrade and it seems more consistent to upgrade them to longbows, besides bowman & longbows have a unique characteristic of archer units of firing a free shot at attackers when stacked with other units, i was not wanting to remove that element from the game

-scouts cannot really be removed because as an expansionist civ everyone will start with a scout, but can make them not buildable. there is no point in having them because jag warriors have same cost but better stats, a 1/1/2 instead of 0/0/2, combine that with the optoin of chasqui scouts and they are really unnecessary

-cannot have legionaires upgrade to immortals because they both come at iron working (note in my upgrade lists units seperated by a comma indicate all those units upgrade to the same unit which is indicated by an ">") want to keep both at ironworking as that's where they are normally available and it provides two different options for a unit a 3/3/1 & a 4/2/1, not to mention the gallic swordsmen 3/2/2

-samurai is a "knight" unit and i wanted to keep them in the "knight" chain, i have jags going to gallic going to samurai because they have movement rate of 2, normally in the game the samurai upgrades to cavalry so i felt they should upgrade to a cavalry unit and i chose the cossack

-infantry already upgrades to mechanical infantry int he game, did not want to change this to TOW infantry, which is what guerilla already upgrades to

Here is my current list of units / upgrade chain:

-jaguar warrior > gallic swordsman > samurai > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-bowman > longbowman > guerilla > TOW infantry
-impi, enkidu warrior, hoplite, numidian mercanary > swiss mercenary > musketeer > rifleman > infantry > mechanical infantry
-warrior > legionary > guerilla > TOW infantry
-immortals > guerilla > TOW infantry
-war chariot, three man chariot > mounted warrior > keshik > ansar warrior > cossack > panzer > modern armor
-rider, war elephant > sipahi > panzer > modern armor
-scout, chasqui scout > conquistador
-javelin thrower > berserk > marines
-catapult > trebuchet > hwach'a > artillery > radar artillery
-curragh > dromon > carrack > galleon > transport
-fighter > F-15
-man-o-war > cruiser > AEGIS cruiser
-ironclad > destroyer

as far as wonders, i like some of your suggesitons, but there is a problem:


As for great/small wonders:
-The only great wonder we need is the internet. Keep that but get rid of it's characteristics. The reason I say keep this one is I doubt the AI will be around this time. It would be unfair to have the AI build the UN, or even the great wall and waste shields on them.
-Make the UN a small wonder. It's use will produce an infantry unit every 5 turns. The UN right now is the "world police" so why not make it that way in the game. If you want to keep it as another forbidden palace, that's fine also.
-Make the great wall a small wonder. The real great wall was built to prevent rival nations from coming into China and stealing goods and leaving. So in the game, the great wall will produce one extra commerce in the city square of all cities. If you think that is too much, then it will only produce something like 5 extra commerce in the city that built it.

the debate here is between the internet and UN, both are not available until late in the modern age, do we want a wonder that can acts as another forbidden palace AND produces an infantry (mechanical infantry / TOW infantry?) every 5 turns or do we wnat a wonder which gives us 2 free advances?

i am not sure about the commerce capability in the editor, i do not know if i can make a wonder generate commerce unless it works like the colossus. it should retain the barbarian defense, but there is also an option for doubles city defenses in the editor, perhaps that would work well, but will look at commerce option.

other suggestions anyone?

-Philosophy needs to go back to vanilla civ.

yeah, that would be best, it's not too late because other than rubberjello nobody else has any suggestions and i am leary about putting this together w/out input.

we also need to decide about the starting techs, i can add as many as we want, like every tech normally given for each trait, or we could pick out 2-3, whatever, or we could start with none, but everyone is going to start with the same techs. it is easy to do 4, more than that requires more tinkering, but assigning 4 or less is very easy.

what difficulty level are we going to play? no less than emporer.

I'm more interested in playing a truly equal game. I'm not so concerned about the details of how the game as modded as long as we get off to a fast start and are on a generally equal footing.

I think that Emporer play would be good. I don't really want to play on diety.

I think that Emporer play would be good. I don't really want to play on diety.

chicken

if we have 5 players, then i am worried about the ai being totally dominated in the game because they will be outnumbered, might go for demigod, but i thought emprorer would be good too.

i also need some civ selections, i know rubberjello, dogboy & i are all in the US, i'll let one of them have America if they want, though rubber said he did not care.

btw, in addition to the equalizing which goes on for human players i will be adjusting the defualt settings for the ai, they will all be programmed to be very aggressive.

Ok, don't have a lot of time.

But keep the archers in and keep longbowmen in. Those upgrade paths look fine to me.

The reason I said the internet instead of the UN staying in the game as the great wonder is the internet comes later than the UN. True, it's not that much later. But it would still suck if an AI built it and then died before the internet was available. Just wasting all those shields would make it unfair.

The UN can still be another forbidden palace.

As for difficulty level, I really don't care. I also have a feeling we might roll over the AI as it's not going to be as efficient with all these changes. Emperor at the least but leaning towards diety. But like I said, I'm flexible.

I was thinking about golden age. Instead of giving it to a UU, how about making it come as soon as a player builds # of small wonders. I don't know what # equals, but we could decide on something. Maybe 5 or 10 small wonders triggers a golden age. That is something that would need to be playtested.

I will be American.

I think I would not be able to play the game any time soon :( . So that solves your one problem.

Good luck on creating the game!

As for difficulty level, I really don't care. I also have a feeling we might roll over the AI as it's not going to be as efficient with all these changes. Emperor at the least but leaning towards diety. But like I said, I'm flexible.

I was thinking about golden age. Instead of giving it to a UU, how about making it come as soon as a player builds # of small wonders. I don't know what # equals, but we could decide on something. Maybe 5 or 10 small wonders triggers a golden age. That is something that would need to be playtested.

DogBoy, it's not that I don't like your suggestions, it's just that some of these things are not possible in the editor, sorry to keep shooting down some of them. There is only 2 ways to get GA, building Great Wonders which correspond to civ traits or being victorious in combat w/ UU. There is no way of altering that. The only other option would be to keep the Great Wonders as Great Wonders, use the flavor setting new to conquests and create 8 Wonders (7 new) for each existing one. That method leaves a lot of room for errors not too mention a lot of work for me and since i have been off work for 6 weeks now i have gotten a little lazy. The only feasible method is w/ the UU and we need to decide which ones to use, but make it broad so that AI will build them, but that is something else we can look for during testing, i'll throw in additional scouts to make contact easier so we can check about this.

With some of these changes it might actually help the AI, instead of spending 100+ turns building wonders only to get the Great Wall or a colloseum, they will actually get the wonder they wanted. I think they will have no problem getting to the middle ages unless two players are very warmongering oriented (predesad suddenly feels all eyes looking at him, stop that!) and strive to wipe them out early at the expense of expansion. Keep in mind 8 players on a huge world 60% water, plenty of distance / space for the AI to develop.

I don't know how the AI will repsond to the wonders changes really, but the units changes wont be a problem, i did this in vanilla civ and the ai was very good at building the diverse units, stacks of hoplites / legionaries / mounted warriors in ancient age. the only problem with that game was i played on regent level. I would also like to try this on diety, maybe demigod, but with adjusted corruption level, same as emporer.

@deshelbr, what are your objections to the diety level game? would you be okay with demigod? please be specific. my feeling is, and this is not meant as an insult, you are simply not wanting that much of a challenge form the ai, while we are actually trying to make it a challenge to keep them alive a little longer. 4 humans have the potential to thoroughly abuse 4 ai. typically in pbem, the ai is always a first target for elimination because it is easier than eliminating a human and they will often attack before a human. with that in mind, perhaps i should not make the ai most agressive, but put them all in the middle.

Predesad, I don't mind you shooting down my recommendations. Better to do that now then to find out 2 months into our PBEM that something isn't going to work.

Here are two recommendations to golden age:
1. Give them to a late middle ages UU, maybe siphali or cossack. Giving it to an early ancient age (bowman for example), will screw the AI I think. Since the humans know that the bowman will give a golden age, I'm pretty sure nobody will build it to get a 2-5 city despotism golden age, but the AI might. That equals "unfair" for the AI.
2. Just get rid of golden age. Since this is an "equality" game, by getting rid of the golden age then nobody can gain an advantage in that manner. You won't miss the golden age, because nobody will get it.

As for difficulty level, I think demi-god might be a little too high. True, the AI is usually the first target in these games, but the humans can also be a target. What would happen if one human wound up between two AI. Both AI expand towards the human. One AI goes to war with those extra units, enlists the other AI with its extra units, and that human is going to be so far behind. Yes, diety also has extra units, but not as much as demi-god.

I vote for Demigod or Emporer (but would rather have demigod). I would like to keep the Golden Age in. Maybe only UUs from the Middle Ages onwards can trigger it? (Swiss, Conquistadors, and the whole raft of Cavalry variants for Middle Ages.)

haha, me so dumb. I had my terminology backwards. What I meant to say was I vote for demi-god because diety has more units for the AI. So I vote for demi-god.

Yeah, i was about to call you on that DogBoy, so that we can actually get somewhere on these decisions, I am going to post a series of polls of all the issues as i see them, since CFC does not have the poll option, i will provide a link to these polls in this thread when i am finished. As soon as all the players have voted in the polls or by Saturday night (preferably tomorrow night) i will consider the discussions closed unless someone raises another issue / question. I will break any ties as the host.

okay, the whole poll thing is not going to work because it would take a lot of polls, instead i am sending out an email to avoid another very long post since one of my fellow players already accused me of being:The long-winded, verbose, comments-on-everything, Mr. Observation himself :D :D

the email is in the form of a questionaire and can simply be replied to and add yes / no or whatever is appropriate beside the questions.

deshelbr, i need your email and i could also use your time zone please. i know you said you were not concerned about the actual settings but i could use your input anyway if you have the time.

i have not had much time to work on testing yet, although with what little i have played i am 75% thru w/ the ancient age and have 3 units, temples, barracks in all cities, a multiple wonder campaign is underway in both civs and coloseums are also under construction. i disbanded all of my scouts once the goody huts were gone & i had made contact with myself because i felt they were useless.

nobody has had any questions so i am not making it a priority to write up a full detailed explanation of all the changes. when we actually get to the real pbem, i will have this completed and will send it to each player via an email and in an attached wordpad format to make it easy to reference even during playing time.

in my test i amjust building stuff, meanwhile the ai keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. i havent even thought about going out to claim resources yet. i hope the ai doesnt kill me off before i at least get through the tech tree, but it is obvious they are having a rapid expansion. this does worry me because at some point during the test phase if the game lasts long enough with all the extra shields / food it might slow the game down real bad to the point we dont really get to test the whole thing, i hate it when you gotta wait like 15 minutes + between turns.

also, shortly i am going to make an epic game with all the exact changes in the pbem so you guys can play it if you want to maybe help plan strategy for the pbem, see exactly how the changes affect the game, it will be set up exactly like the pbem plans to be.

I have done some testing also. I am done with the entire tech tree and am on future tech 2 right now. What I did was give each civ a different research tree and trade techs each turn. I have a gazillion units and am about to start testing the upgrade path, golden age, and leaders. Be forewarned, there is no oil and rubber on our land mass. There is some on the AIs landmass so you might want to settle that part. Also, there is only one saltpeter on our land mass so good luck on that part. I actually had to set up a bunch of colonies to grab resources. Raging barbs sucks. I put the workers on auto for this test, stupid things build airports?

I dont have any idea why i left the barbs as raging for the test, but am glad to hear you got through the tech tree without any problems at least. the upgrade path probably does not really need to be tested to closely, IIRC the civilopedia automatically updates any editor changes with respect to upgrades, so we should just be able to cross reference the civilopedia w/ the changes, but i cannot guarantee that.

NO OIl! NO RUBBER! ONE SALTPETER!

Man, this was a sloppy job by me on the test scenario, I thought surely w/ a huge map 4 civs resources would not be a problem, i can deal w/ the one saltpeter no problem, but no oil / rubber really sucks. I should have edited the map for resources and like i said should have put barbs at sednetary or whatever makes them in huts only, then we would have none because expansionist never pops barbs. but hey, that's my mistake for the month.

Originally posted by predesad
deshelbr, i need your email and i could also use your time zone please. i know you said you were not concerned about the actual settings but i could use your input anyway if you have the time.

I'm in PST (GMT -8) and my e-mail is deshelbr AT yahoo DOT com. I tried to reply to your questionaire, but after I had written an answer to every question and I tried to send it, Yahoo Mail ate it. So I lost my work responding and was so mad I haven't brought my self to do it again.

I also tested a little of the scenario, I'm getting destroyed though because I'm not realizing how everything works with all the modifications.

okay, this may be repeating some of what i already said, but dont feel like taking the time to look back at previous post. IIRC, dogboy said he expected to be through with testing this weekend, i also think i will be through this weekend and we might be able to roll, deshelbr, i need your civ preference, America is taken everything else is open because rubberjello just requested "not pink"

if anyone has any issues it is important to state them now, of course it is hard to really guess how the game is really going to react based on the test scenario, but i was not really wanting to do extensive testing for balance issues. when i make the PBEM & i know there are no problems / errors, i will post here an extensive explanation of all changes and also email a copy to each player, i was going to send a wordpad file also, but realized that was pointless, everyone can just copy and paste from email or thread to make their own wordpad file, easier than downloading one. also i will send the scenario to each player in a format in which they can either play it as an epic game or use it for future PBEM, this service is free of charge and is a bonus for participating in the PBEM :lol: :lol:

i will also start an epic game & send to everyone, if you get time to play it, then it will help to see exactly how the changes will affect the game and help in planning strategies for the game. i hope to one day actually make a mod based on this concept which will add a few units and buildings and a few other changes, if i ever clear my table enough to work on it and get the help i need, but civ4 might come out beofre that happens.

i hope the delay has not caused anyone to lose interest

Apologies to all. I haven't had time to do any testing. Just to let you know I feel guilty about it, but am not going to actually act out on that guilt! :D

I would like to be the Persians.

Predesad do you mind sending this test scenario to me at josthecybs at hotmail dot com. Though you already have enough players I might like to join a future game and besides I need to sharpen my skills a bit first :;

i will be happy to send you the test scenario, but basically since we were not looking for balance issues just errors it is not really a playable game, IMHO, all terrain gives like 5 food, 10 shields, 5 commerce, max / min research time set to 1 turn so you get a tech every turn even under 10% science, & a few other things so we could just get through the tree, i will also send you the final scenario which won't have these rapid build / growth / research changes.

Ok, I'm done with my testing. Very intensive and exhaustive but it will be worth it I think. Anyway, here are some points/questions. If I make a point that has already been stated, please don't give me the ole' "it's here stupid" because I'm not going to re-read everything that has been posted. Anyway:

-The upgrade tree looks pretty good. The units were upgradeable as they should be.
-Is the cossack and siphai supposed to upgrade to panzer? I never noticed that but they do this time.
-The wonders work as they should. This includes "must have 5 barracks or must have 5 temples".
-The UN works as it should...which is it's worthless.
-If we got rid of all units that are not a UU, then why did we leave some? That question doesn't make sense, but let me explain. We still have guerillas, infantry, mech infantry, TOW infantry, modern paratroopers, marines, modern armor, artillery, etc... We got rid of swordmen, spearmen, etc... and decided to only use UU. I think the answer is because there is no replacement for infantry, mech infantry, battleships, etc... but I just wanted to be sure.
-The earliest UU that would give me the golden age was the Ansar Warrior. This is a bit early in my opinion for a golden age. I thought we had decided that the earliest time to get a golden age would be middle to late middle ages. If everybody wants to go with the knight based UUs, that's fine with me. But everybody needs to know that so nobody gets surprised.
-Can I get a resource? No, I'm serious, I need a resource. On our HUGE land mass, and I do mean HUGE, there was 1 saltpeter, 1 horse, 2 iron, 2 aluminum, 2 coal, 0 oil, 0 rubber, 0 uranium. The chance of winning the powerball lottery is better than this happening again. I don't know if you can adjust the settings on resources, but if you did, I recommend doing away with that. I'm not saying to make sure everybody has several of each resource, but it's not going to be an "equality" PBEM if only one person wins the lottery and gets iron and horses.
-You can't upgrade all the way at one time. For instance, a hoplite had to upgrade to a musketeer on this turn. The next turn he could upgrade to a mech infantry. I wasn't able to just upgrade from a hoplite to a mech infantry in one try. I don't know if the normal games are like this (frankly I don't think I ever made that big jump of an upgrade). I would recommend changing this if you can to just be able to mass upgrade at one time.

Other than that, it looks like it's going to be fun.

DogBoy, I am also almost done with my test and also have not noticed any problems, i will try to answer your questions as best i can:

Is the cossack and siphai supposed to upgrade to panzer? I never noticed that but they do this time.

yes, nobody objected when i suggested that in the upgrade chain so i left it in

I think the answer is because there is no replacement for infantry, mech infantry, battleships, etc... but I just wanted to be sure

yeah, you figured that out, i only took out units which had uu replacing them, otherwise in industrial / modern age we would have no units to build except panzers and F - 15, how can you possibly try to defend against panzer with musketeers, which is the strongest defensive uu, other than panzers themselves

If everybody wants to go with the knight based UUs

everybody, yourself included voted for knight based uu to have GA, perhaps you meant to vote no.

Can I get a resource?

i have been worried about that, i have not changed any of the settings, but i am going to generate a few maps w/ the editor and see how resource distribution goes. you do have a point about it being an equality PBEM everyone should have roughly equal opportunity to nab resources, but unless someone finds someone who can reliably set up the game with the scenario, genarate the map exactly how we want it and check exact placement of resources this is just a gamble. any proposed solutions are welcome. in general this map just seemed totally devoid of resources, like i said i will generate a few maps in the editor with these same settings and see if there is a problem i have not noticed.

there is a method by which i can increase the number of resources, but in doing so the number of bonus resources would decrease proportionally to the number of other resources added. for example, if i altered the distribution of all strategic resources so that we had 2 more of each, then as a whole that would reduce the number of total bonus resources by that same number, which would not be that big a deal, IMHO, but let me do some looking at generated maps before i try to do that.

You can't upgrade all the way at one time

basically because this is a different concept from what i have seen before i cannot confirm this or cite a source, but it IMHO, this is because yuo are upgrading from a UU to another UU, and so the upgrade sort of stalls. IIRC, once you get a GA then you can upgrade all the way, for example, the hoplite stalled at musketeer because the musketeer was a golden age producing unit. it has been a long toime since i have played with the units this way, but basically that is a theory and there is nothing i can do about it, just dont wait until the lst minute to upgrade otherwise those panzers will roll over that musketeer you thought was going to be a mechanical infantry.

i plan on posting a detailed list of changes and explanation of those changes including the reason behind them either tonight or tomorrow night, and the game will be started at the same time, giving just a little time to see if someone comes up with a solution about resources, or if when i generate a map i get a different result, i really think this was just a fluke.

okay, regarding the map herre is what i found, and it is what i initially suspected, the amount of generated strtegic resources is porgrammed to correspond to the number of players in the game. for example, when i generate a huge map / 16 players i get between 12-18 of each resource, some resources are set so that there is not enough for eveyone, uranium for example. when i generate huge map / 8 players which is what we will have i get between 6-10 of each resource. In the test we had only 4 players, so even though it was a huge map there were fewer resources. I used civ multitool to actually give me the map stats.

I am ready to start the game tonight, will not have time today, want to get my write up done on all the changes first. In the meantime, without additionally testing, does anyone want me to modify the resource distribution so there are more resources, with a simple change the map would generate more strategic / luxury resources, this slightly reduces the total number of bonus resources but greatly helps assure each player has an opportunity to get each resource, i am neutral and dont care.

Additionally, deshelbr, do you want custom information for your tribe, rubberjello & i are going to have custom information.

mine & jello's examples

NAME: Predesad
FORMAL: Predesadians
NOUN: Predesadtopia
ADJECTIVE: Predesadian
TITLE: Chief Justice

NAME: Rubberjello
FORMAL: Jellians
NOUN: Jellotopia
ADJECTIVE: Jelloian
TITLE: Jello Master

I vote we bump up the strategic resources a little bit. If we have as many strategic resources as what I just tested, the game will be completely unfair for some people. It's just a lottery, cross your fingers, and hope you win.

Originally posted by DogBoy
I vote we bump up the strategic resources a little bit. If we have as many strategic resources as what I just tested, the game will be completely unfair for some people. It's just a lottery, cross your fingers, and hope you win.

even if i dont bump the resources up we will have more than what was tested, the test was a 4 player, the game will be 8 player.

I'd be cool with this:

NAME: Deshelbr
FORMAL: Watusi
NOUN: Watusi
ADJECTIVE: Watusi
TITLE: Big Daddy

How's that?

The game is underway, I have sent the turn to Rubberjello. Do not be afraid to ask for a restart if you get a bad start, middle of jungle or something. If you get a really good start be sure to let me know so I can claim to have a bad start and restart. Here is the turn order and settings information:

Predesad (Iroquois) (Predesadtopia) predesad AT yahoo DOT com

Japan

Rubberjello (Germany - not pink) (Jellotopia)
rubberjello AT yahoo DOT com

Russia

Deshelbr (Persia) (Watusi) deshelbr AT yahoo DOT com

Carthage

DogBoy (Americans) ("you will all know who I am when I steamroll you" quoted from his response when asked for custom information) greeneclan AT mchsi DOT com

This is a huge, normal climate, temperate, 4 billion year old continents world with 60% water and raging barbarians on demigod difficulty. Victory conditions are: domination, conquest, space race, and culture. No respawn AI, or culturally linked starts, AP is off, cultural conversions on, random seed is preserved.

Here is a very detailed list of changes with explanations and is being compiled as I look both at the list of changes I made and at the editor to help verify I do not omit any changes. I recommend you copy and paste this into a wordpad document so you can have esay access to it during the PBEM. I will follow the editor in listing the changes made, with some deviation, units will be listed last, improvement immediately before that because those screens had the most changes.

I) Citizens: no changes

II) Civilizations

A) Favorite and Shunned Government both changed to none

-certain civs will favor certain governments in diplomacy based on these settings, they will also tend to operate under a certain gov't based on these settings instead of picking what might be best for them, or so I ma told. Eliminating this setting was equalizing.

B) Aggresion levels set to average

-consensus of questionnaire

C) all Civ Traits given

-part of equalization

D) Governor Settings removed except for manage citizens and manage production

-with governor settings, each civ would still tend to act or build according to their trait instead of their situation

E) Culture Group changed to American for everyone

-this setting may only be graphic in nature and relate to starting locations if the option is turned on, however, I was uncertain if it had any affect on diplomacy so I equalized it, American was first on list, easiest to change to, hence the reason for making them all American. Originally it was none, but game would not play with this setting.

F) Free Techs: ceremonial burial and pottery

-although I initially polled the players, when setting up the test I changed my mind and went completely with my own thoughts. Basically, warrior code, the wheel and bronze working provide several additional units so I left those out. Alphabet lets you build a boat besides being the highest cost starting tech so I left it out. Masonry does not provide any units and I was going to include it, but thought instead to leave it with two starting techs and thought pottery and ceremonial burial would provide the best benefits as starting techs while giving no additional units. IIRC, the enkidu warrior, scout and chasqui scout are the only units available to start.

III) Civilization Advances

-bonus tech given to first player who discovers philosophy removed

IV) Combat Experience: no changes

V) Culture: no changes

VI) Difficulty Levels

A) overall corruption reduced to 80% from 100%

- this applies only to distance corruption, changed per poll / personal opinion

B) % of optimal cities increased from 70% to 100%

- optimal cities on huge world is 36, old settings means after 25 cites, all other cities are absolutley corrupt, at 100% we get the full 36 cities, changed per poll / personal opinion

**note, this apples to for demigod difficulty and huge world in this example, but similar changes made for all difficulty levels and will apply to different world sizes differently in playing other games with this scenario

VII) Diplomats and Spies: no changes

VIII) Eras: no changes

IX) Flavors: no changes

X) General Settings

A) Basic Barbarian Archer replaces Warrior

B) Advanced Barbarian Medieval Infantry replaces Horseman

C) Barbarian Boat Caravel replaces Galley

D) Cities needed to support an army reduced from 4 to 3

XI) Governments: no changes

XII) Natural Resources

A) Ivory renamed elephants and switched from luxury to strategic. Instead of provides 2 commerce now provides 1 food, 1 shield, and 2 commerce.

-basically i just personally feel the extra food / shield more accurately reflect what elephants can provide and can be used as a strategic resource for war elephants, and it is already required for Statue of Zeus. For game purposes, I decided to make elephants abundant nough for one resource per civ with no chance of disappearing.

B) Tobacco changed from bonus to luxury resource, commerce bonus increased from 1 to 2.

-this change was made to replace ivory as a luxury and give the same values.

C) Distribution values altered as follows to maximize chances of available resources for equalizing:

1) Horses: 160 to 240
2) Iron: 160 to 240
3) Saltpeter: 120 to 180
4) Coal: 120 to 180
5) Oil: 120 to 180
6) Rubber: 120 to 180
7) Aluminum: 120 to 180
8) Uranium: 100 to 150
9) Elephants: 160
10) Wines: 100
11) Furs: 100
12) Dyes: 100
13) Incense: 100
14) Spices: 100
15) Silks: 100
16) Gems: 100
17) Tobacco : 100

-these distribution settings typically genaerated a map with about 14 horses / iron, and 9-10 of other strategic resources as well as 6-7 of each luxury, up from 4-5. This caused about only a 10% reduction in the total number of bonus resources and I felt it was a good trade off, just don't count on your opponent not having resources. I cannot comment upon the actual number of resources in the game map because I feel it would be unethical for me to use the civmultitool program to look at that map even just to get the stats.

XIII) Terrain: no changes

XIV) Worker Jobs: no changes

XV) World Sizes: no changes

XVI) Improvements and Wonders

-all Great Wonders changed to Small Wonders, except the UN. Build costs, culture generated not changed for any wonder, also the tourist attraction feature not changed for any wonder. All expirations removed, wonders will not become obsolete.

A) Pyramids: acts as granary & hospital in this city, 1 content citizen this city

-debated between acting as an aqueduct or hospital, however I felt the benefits of having an ancient age wonder which would allow a city to grow past size 2 (12 citizens) would better justify the cost of the wonder with all the attributes being city specific. A city must be size 2 (7 or more citizens) before being able to build this wonder. It is still possible to build a hospital in a city which has the Pyramids, but it is unnecessary

B) Great Library: +2 free advances

C) Oracle: +1 content all cities, requires 5 temples

D) Great Wall: still gives barbarian combat bonus, +1 content all cities

-given better assurances against barbarians who in reality wiped out many ancient civilizations, it is not unreasonable for this wonder to give an extra content citizen. there was little else I could do with this wonder within the constraints of the editor

E) Sun Tzu's Art of War: veteran ground / sea / air units (this city); reduce war werainess all cities; requires 5 barracks

-effectively acts as a barracks, harbor, and airport in producing veteran units, the city which builds this wonder will have no need to build a barracks, units will be upgradable in this city without one and will still recover (heal) in one turn, however there are other benefits associated with harbors / airports which might lead you to build one of those in this city despite the presence of SunTzu's. Basically, there was little else to do with Sun Tzu's relating to war than reducing war weariness. Decided against being able to build armies from this city because given the cost of the wonder it would probably not be very beneficial, the military academy which does allow a city to build armies cost 2/3 as much to build by comparison. The militaristic trait should allow plenty of armies anyway.

F) Sistine Chapel: +3 content all cities, requires 5 cathedrals

G) Magellan's: +2 movement to boats

-this effect is cumulative with the Great Lighthouse, meaning each civ will have the opportunity to add a total of +3 to the movement rates of ships, a plus given the world size.

H) Hoover Dam: must be near river, coastal, increases food / trade / shields in water, production x 2, pollution decreased by 100 (all characteristics city specific)

-given the high cost to build and former benefits, wanted to make this a powerful wonder. In addition ot hte produciton bonus, you can still build a power plant which will add even more production bonus. It is very hard to imagine this city producing any pollution, but I do not know how the game will react regarding overall pollution of your entire civ relating to this wonder, it may only reduce / eliminte this cities pollution.

I) United Nations: given that there was no real characteristic relating to this wonder it was left as the only remaining Great Wonder to prevent error when accessing Great Wonders in the civilopedia. All traits have been removed, including culture, in addition the build cost was reduced to 1 so that if an AI was still alive and built it, it would not be wasting 100 turns on nothing. In addition, it is not capable of producing a GA because surely you should have already had one and all the flags have been removed which would have allowed it to give a GA for certain civ traits.

J) The Manhattan Project: although this wonder was not changed, the fact that it is now a small wonder instead of a Great Wonder means all civs will have to build this wonder individually in order to build their own nuclear weapons.

K) Temple of Artemis: +1 content all cities, requires 5 temples

L) Internet: +2 free advances, doubles research of city

-given the choice bewteen this wonder and the UN, ultimately I decided the Internet was in reality too influential to leave out of the game, I suppose others would argue the UN is as well, but IMHO the Internet has more far reaching effects. Since the Internet is very powerful in reality I made it a powerful wonder giving it two abilities instead of one.

XVII) Units (in order as listed in editor, includes list of all units and their upgrade whether the upgrade was changed or not, all units in game are available to all civs with the exception of barbarians units, all UU indicate if they give a GA or not.)

1) Settler - NC
2) Worker - NC
3) Scout - upgrade to conquistador / available to all
4) Explorer - removed
5) Marine - NC / no upgrade
6) Modern Paratrooper - NC / no upgrade
7) Warrior - removed, though might be popped from huts, not verified / upgrade to legionary
8) Archer - given to barbarians
9) Spearman - removed
10) Swordsman - removed
11) Chariot - removed
12) Horseman - removed
13) Pikeman - removed
14) Longbowman - NC / upgrade to guerilla
15) Musketman - removed
16) Knight - removed
17) Rifleman - NC / upgrade to infantry
18) Cavalry - removed
19) Infantry - NC / upgrade to mechanical infantry
20) Tank - removed
21) Mechanical Infanry - NC / no upgrade
22) Modern Armor - NC / no upgrade
23) Catapult - NC / upgrade to trebuchet
24) Cannon - removed
25) Artillery - NC / upgrade to radar artillery
26) Radar Artillery - NC / no upgrade
27) Cruise Missile - NC / no upgrade
28) Tactical Nuke - NC / no upgrade
29) ICBM - given only to predesad / no upgrade
30) Galley - removed
31) Caravel - geiven to barbarians
32) Frigate - removed
33) Galleon - NC / upgrade to transport
34) Ironclad - NC / upgrade to destroyer
35) Transport - NC / no upgrade
36) Carrier - NC / no upgrade
37) Submarine - NC / no upgrade
38) Destroyer - NC / no upgrade
39) Battleship - NC / no upgrade
40) AEGIS Cruiser - NC / no upgrade
41) Nuclear Submarine - NC / no upgrade
42) Fighter - upgrade to F-15
43) Bomber - NC / no upgrade
44) Jet Fighter - removed
45) Stealth Fighter - NC / no upgrade
46) Stealth Bomber - NC / no upgrade
47) Leader - NC / no upgrade
48) Army - NC / no upgrade
49) Jaguar Warrior - no GA / upgrade to Gallic Swordsman
50) Bowman - no GA / upgrade to Longbowman
51) Hoploite - no GA / upgrade to Swiss Mercenary
52) Impi - no GA / upgrade to Swiss Mercenary
53) Legionary - no GA / upgrade to Guerilla
54) Immortals - no GA / upgrade to Guerilla
55) War Chariot - no GA / upgrade to Mounted Warrior
56) Rider - yes GA / upgrade to Sipahi
57) Mounted Warrior - no GA / upgrade to Keshik
58) Musketeer - yes GA / upgrade to rifleman
59) Samurai - yes GA / upgrade to cossack
60) War Elephant - yes GA / upgrade to Sipahi / requires elephants resource
61) Cossack - yes GA / upgrade to Panzer
62) Panzer - yes GA / upgrade to Modern Armor
63) Man-O-War - yes GA / upgrade to cruiser
64) F-15 - yes GA / no upgrade
65) Privateer - NC / no upgrade
66) Keshik - yes GA / upgrade to Ansar Warrior (note Mounted Warrior upgrades to Keshik, but will upgrade also to Ansar Warrior if you have both iron and horses, both are knight UU but Keshik requires only horses)
67) Conquistador - yes GA / no upgrade
68) Berserk - no GA / upgrade to Marine
69) Sipahi - yes GA / upgrade to Panzer
70) Gallic Sworsman - no GA / upgrade to Samurai
71) Ansar Warrior - yes GA / upgrade to Cossack
72) Numidian Mercenary - no GA / upgrade to Swiss Mercenary
73) Hwach'a - yes GA / upgrade to artillery
74) Medieval Infantry - given to barbarians
75) Guerilla - NC / upgrade to TOW Infantry
76) Princess or King units - not going to comment since this is not a regicide / capture the princess game
77) Enkidu Warrior - no GA / upgrade to Swiss Mercenary
78) Three-Man Chariot - no GA / upgrade to Mounted Warrior
79) Carrack - yes GA / upgrade to Galleon
80) Swiss Mercenary - no GA / upgrade to Musketeeer
81) Trebuchet - NC / upgrade to Hwach'a
82) Chasqui Scout - no GA / upgrade to Conquistador
83) Javelin Thrower - no GA / upgrade to Berserk
84) Dromon - no GA / upgrade to Carrack
85) Cruiser - NC / upgrade to AEGIS Cruiser
86) Crusader - NC / no upgrade (note still a generated unit only)
87) Ancient Cavalry - NC / no upgrade (note still a generated unit only)
88) Curragh - NC / upgrade to Dromon
89) Paratrooper - NC / upgrade to Modern Paratrooper
90) TOW Infantry - NC / no upgrade
91) Flak - NC / upgrade to Mobile SAM
92) Mobile SAM - NC / no upgrade

Here is the scenario file available for download to anyone who wants it, it had to be zipped otherwise it was not a valid file type.

In addition, here are two epic games available for download to anyone who wants. I recommend it to the players who are participating in this game to give you an idea of how these changes affect the game. Both games should have the exact same world, although possibly different computer opponents, per the world seed, the starts looked identical. One game is on emporer level, the other on monarchy level.

The Emporer level game will be in this post, Monarch in next, can only attach one file per post.

Monarch level epic game

So the map that we are playing the game on, is the same as this one that we can download? Ahh, makes it smart to get this and check out the world then :)

Just got done reading about the game. Everything looks good to me except for the units # 29. I think you meant to type DogBoy instead of Predesad, but I just needed to be sure. Also units # 86 and #87. I can't remember what we decided about those. Are those small wonders still in the game? I'm guessing they are but just wanted to be sure. Also, what about those wonders which are not listed here. I can't remember what we decided about those. Are they still going to give the same benefit without being called a great wonder and without giving a golden age?

So the map that we are playing the game on, is the same as this one that we can download? Ahh, makes it smart to get this and check out the world then :)

actually, no, there are two epic games to download which have the same map because i used an identical seed value for both games. these games are the same because in addiiton to the pbem, 2 other players have expressed interest in this game, plus eventually i hope to put this scenario in the creation forum or whatever it is called, once i do more with it. i thought it would be neat to have any interested players play the exact same map so we / they can comment / discuss the epic game and gave the option of 2 different difficulties, i am going to play it on emporer.

the PBEM has an independently generated map with no seed value, well it has a seed value because all the maps do, but i dont know what it is and have no way of finding out that i know of



Just got done reading about the game. Everything looks good to me except for the units # 29. I think you meant to type DogBoy instead of Predesad, but I just needed to be sure. Also units # 86 and #87. I can't remember what we decided about those. Are those small wonders still in the game? I'm guessing they are but just wanted to be sure. Also, what about those wonders which are not listed here. I can't remember what we decided about those. Are they still going to give the same benefit without being called a great wonder and without giving a golden age?

every wonder is in the game as a small wonder, except our useless UN (useless in the game not RL) the ones we did not discuss have the exact same qualities / effects as before, but as a small wonder will not give GA & is available to all. The ones we discussed had effects which could not be assigned to a small wonder per the editor settings, except for the great library, but giving that to everyone would have ruined the game.

SoZ & Knight's Templar are in, produce the same 2 units, & dont expire. i thought i had posted a question about them, but could not find it on the thread anywhere.

And unit #29 was actually given to everyone except the Americans, i can't remember exactly who has them...

I have to be honest, I love to play, but I don't like to read this much. :) I'm ready when you are.

Well...I got an "interesting start". Not very bad. Not very good. I was wondering...since everyone has the seafaring trait, are we all going to start out coastal (which usually has a lesser chance of being a "killer" start position?

And if I start out 1 more PBEM game with no food bonus tiles in site.... GRRRRRR!!! :mad:
;)

yeah, we should all start near coast, or have a very gooc chance of startin gnear coast at least, i know how you feel about no food bonus starts, i have gotten a lot of them lately, dont rmember for sure what my start looked like in this game, guess it must not have been too good if it was ont memorable

@deshelbr - know how you feel about reading, would have preferred to edit the civilopedia, but that would have been an additional download / install for the game and more chance of errors

Alright! A much better start for me on the restart! I finally got a bonus food source in range for the first time in 6 PBEM game starts. Yeah!

Now....you other two better not fudge up this start by have a bad start yourselves! :p

RJ, I'm glad you got a better start. I have not yet seen my start, but it has to be better than what I had last time. It can't get any worse! I was the one that asked for a restart. I was on a river on the coast, but that was it. The first ring of tiles were desert. The next ring was a few hills with mostly mountains and one volcano. Had that volcano erupted, it would have wiped out my improvements. Once again, sorry for the restart but I didn't feel there was much I could have done with the game.

That's understandable. Especially the Volcano. But remember, we're agricultural also, so Desert is not *that* bad, (but not that good either!) :D

I was wondering whether people would want to talk about their opening moves here or not. The way I see it, with Raging Barbs and 4 AIs at a high difficulty level, this is less of a game *between* us, and more of a game of trying to survive and cooperating. I'm looking at this game as primarily one of exploration and seeing how all the modifications affect strategy.

Anyway, what is immediately evident is the tech cost increase of the larger map size. At max, it will be 37 turns for, say, Bronzeworking from turn 1. Even on my solo epic games I'm use to researching the first tech at max, then going to min. and using cash to buy from other civs. I don't know if that is going to work here, but I'll try the same strategy.
Also, with any Expansionist Civ, I usually build 2 other scouts straight off, then go for normal builds. With raging barbs on, I'm not to sure that will be advisable. The Chasqui is an option, but a fairly expensive one. The Inkidu is a very cheap, high-defense unit that could be used as a slow-moving explorer that the barbs will leave alone. I'll probably go 1 normal Scout, 1 Enk (defense) and then maybe a Chasqui, all the while researching at 100% on BW.

What are other's plans? (If you are willing to share)

sharing strategy is fine, as long as there are no attmepts to make any agreements before actual in game contact. noting like, "hey, you research this, i'll research that & if we meet soon we'll swap" in the early going through the middle ages i think you are right we are going to be trying to survive and if one or two men go down that will not look good for the rest of us.

Well, rubber, I must confess I think i have a slightly better commerce than you to start, because i am also researching BW at 100% & i am pretty sure its less than 37 turns. I don't typically use the "buy tech" strategy because i can usually predict where the AI (my first contacts anyway) will go, most of the time they go for the same things everyone has the same priority, i then research something else, hope i am right, and trade, after a couple contacts and good trading i get ahead, although the buy tech would work the same way and would probably work better here because at this difficulty we can't hope to keep up, at least not in the ancient age. but, when we do finally contact one another we should not have much trouble researching and trading to keep caught up, plus buying tech from AI.

my strategy is i dont have one. i am playing the epic game on emporer, and i have learned a few things. for instance, as starting units the AI has enkidu & chasqui, not sure how many they get at this difficulty level. factor in the scout they already get and if you dont put 2 scouts out quickly (i.e. build one) there are going to be no goody huts. in the epic game, i popped a settler on turn 2 or 3, had both those cities put out a scout ASAP for a total of 3. on this huge world w/ 3 scouts i have only got to pop 4 more huts after the first, good for a map, 25 gold, warrior code, and mysticism (although there are 16 opponents because i didnt think about changing it to 8 like the pbem, but lower difficulty means fewer starting units for each) so i am going for a scout ASAP.

after that i am going to gamble that the AI does not become aggressive during early expanison phase & build cheap enkidu's, then start on hoplites after BW for defense because i know the AI will not remain peaceful forever. i also plan to build a curragh when i get alphabet.

my main concern is the expansion phase, i am not sure about what path to follow. some people simply put out a settler at about the time they hit pop 3, rinse repeat, while i typically put out one settler quickly when i reach pop 3, then i build a granary before building next settler. it pays off in long run, but hurts in short term, only thing is there may not be a long run in this game. my second city i usually do same thing, settler at pop 3 then granary then more settlers. anyone got a better suggestion for this game, have never played demigod on huge world 8 civs, have not played much demigod or even emporer level period. if there's enough room to not get crunched during granary build delay it's worth it, because subsequent settlers are much quicker. i think i'll stick with that strategy.

My first unit is also the scout. I'm going to try and grab as much goody huts as possible. Even with raging barbs, I don't expect to see any for quite a while. Since everybody to include the AI is expansionist, no fear of popping barbs from huts. If I'm not mistaken (which I usually am), we really shouldn't see too many barbs until somebody hits the medieval age, then we are gonna be swarmed! As for my expansionist phase, I don't have a strat yet. Even though my start is better, it still almost sucks. No river in sight, no extra food, tundry close by (tells you where I might be), and I think one bonus grassland. It's gonna be tough but that's ok. I also have never played demi-god so I have no advice to offer on how the AI will be and how to work the techs. Since no matter which tech I would research was going to be any faster than 50 turns, I went with the most expensive tech. Bronze working and alphabet were both 50 turns and I couldn't get either one any faster. I'm hoping to meet some AIs and do some trading.

On a different note, I was thinking we should not have put any goody huts in this game at all. Since this is an "equality" game, someone might win the lottery, pop a settler, and get ahead that much faster. No, I don't want to make this game so even that it becomes boring, but settlers from goody huts falls into the same category as SGL which we were discussing getting rid of. I would have said something about this last week during the testing phase but I just thought of it last night while lying in bed (am I addicted or what?) Anyway, just my thoughts.

only problem w/ no goody huts is to my knowledge yuo cant remove them without also removing barbs completely, amd youi will see a few barbs before the middle ages according to the epic game, but not many, i have yet to locate a camp in that game, but spotted 3 barbs at different times.

Ya, if we had removed the huts we also would have removed the barbs. But that would make it more "equal" than allowing someone to pop a settler from a hut.

Uhmm...Haven't heard from this game in a while? I've only played 2 turns (I think).

Weird, I keep a log of when I play the games. My log shows we skipped a day yesterday, but I played today. My guess is you will get it sometime tonight.

I missed the e-mail in my inbox and made my move like 12 hours late. Sorry about the delay.

Originally posted by DogBoy
Ya, if we had removed the huts we also would have removed the barbs. But that would make it more "equal" than allowing someone to pop a settler from a hut.

you cant get too equal, otherwise we would have had to had a map maker coordinate the map so that it had 8 equla areas in size and terrain for all our civs, that would have been a headache. i like the goody huts since everyone is expansionist.

One of the great design decisions making a game is balancing the factor of "luck" against the concept of equality. As a long-time map designer (amatuer) for the Heroes of Might and Magic series, I can tell you the one simple fact that I arrived at. Fully equal maps are BOOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGG!
If you take out all element of chance, you are left with no surprises, no jolts of "alright!" that keeps you playing until 2:00 a.m.
I know there are people who disagree with that, and I respect their opinions. To reduce a game to being fully equal, all elements of mystery are stripped away into a rote sequence of logical steps.

RJ, while I agree with you mostly, I disagree just a little bit. The reason I disagree is because this game was supposed to be "equal". Being equal means we would all have the same opportunities, with the only difference being our playing style. This will allow us to see who is the better player based upon our abilities at managing cities, diplomacy, fighting wars, and whatever. For example, I play games over at the RBCiv (http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/) site and those games are all "fair". They are fair in the sense that we all use the exact same starting position with the only difference being what we do after the opening moves. Very similar to the GOTM on this site. Those games are a lot of fun and we enjoy comparing each other's games. True, they aren't multiplayer games which is what we are doing here, but they are still fun.

I'm also glad this game isn't exatcly equal. I agree that it would get boring if we all knew exatcly where everybody was at in a equi-distance space apart from each other, we all had iron, we all had horses, we all had saltpeter, etc...That would take away our diplomacy skills and war mongering techniques. What I do want to take away is the "lottery" from the game though. In my opinion, the "lottery" is the SGLs and the settlers from the goody huts. I realize that we can't take away SGLs without removing MGLs so that's a fact we are going to have to deal with. And we can't remove goody huts without removing barbs so that's a fact we are going to have to deal with. I think the game is set up just fine the way we are playing it. I merely stated the fact that the game wasn't exatcly "equal". And it would have been boring had we made it exatcly "equal".

In case anyone is wondering, I'm the one holding up the game again. I got shipped out to New York on sudden notice Sunday morning (PST). I have just now gotten Civ3 (w/ Conquests) installed on my laptop and need to patch it up to the current version. I'll probably be able to send my move in about 10 hours due to logistics.

I apologize again for being the bottleneck.

no problem,, but thanks for letting us know what the hold up is

whenever i get the turn again, i have patched to ver 1.20 so at least from that point on everyone else will need to patch

There may be a slight delay of turn in my case then. I have too many games going to patch, so I'm going to have to do a seperate install and patch for these games that are going to switch to 1.20 (This goes for our game with Ironduck also, Predesad)

Where is this game at, i seemed to have lost track of it in all this patch mess.

I resent it to Desh this morning in case the original send got lost. It is most likely patch problems though...

Got it and sent it. I never got the earlier one that was sent. Also, I'm marking the save game with an E at the end on my turns. Is that the wrong letter?

Have we ever figured out where the game is? With only 4 people you would think it would move much much faster than this.

i thought i had posted here already, but i guess not, it is somewhat disappointing to me that it is having problems, who has the turn?

i will check my latest save and verify with rubberjello

I am also pretty disappointed at the pace. Since the last incident (above), I sent another turn to Deshelbr. After waiting 24 hours with no acknowledgement, I sent it again. This time he acknowledged me. That was about 4 days ago. (Turn 5)

Maybe his send to Dogboy never got there?

Last turn I got was March 30. So if he sent it, I never got it. And I haven't had problems getting e-mails from anybody else that I know of.

DogBoy, you should have gotten one more turn since then, I got a turn on the 10th and sent to rubber, that was turn 5, i believe that is the turn he was talking about. Rubber, please check to verify that you got 5 on the 10th or 11th or whenever. Dehselbr, what's going on w/ you?

I sent that e-mail 5 days ago to greeneclan AT mchsi DOT com. That was turn 5. I'm here and I'm playing.

That was so long ago I've already gotten rid of the save file.

I think it is safe to say that everyone's responsibility for keeping this game moving DOES NOT END UNTIL THEY GET AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT FROM THE NEXT PERSON!

Fill up their email box full of sends every day, if that is what it takes.

(Sorry...in a bad mood due to a terrible turn in another PBEM game. ;) )

My records show the last turn I got was turn 3, so somehow you guys must have played turn 4 without me. Anyway, I resent turn 3 to Predesad to keep this thing rolling.

If you want to drop me and restart the game without me that is OK. But I really am here and playing the turns.

No. I don't think that you are the problem here. It is probably just a bunch of coincidental email snaffus. Although from my perspective I would like to know what happened to the first email sends of both turn 4 and turn 5 that I had to resend to you. Are they being dropped into your Bulk folder and you are not looking at them?

Anyway, I find it hard to believe we skipped Dogboy's turn 4. Could you have played it on a different 'puter? or put it in a different folder, Dogboy?

Nope, only have one computer. But I did make a mistake on which turn it was. It was turn 4, I played and sent to Predesad. I will send it again though just to make sure he has it.

okay, i am going to play the turn dogboy sent in a little while even though it is a resend and send it on & let's just go from here.

deshelbr, i was not accusing you of being the problem. although it might have appeared that way, i just know earlier you had a problem with being in NY or something and maybe there was a patch issue, if i wasn't so lazy i would find thepost in the thread to know for sure, and i was trying to ask if you still had any issues / problems which were unresolved.

i say this all the time in games i host and never follow up on it so it probably has no real value, but i will do a better job of making sure the turn moves okay in the future.

Turn 5 played and sent.

sent

Turn 6 sent to Desh. Woohoo! Are we rollin' on this one finally???

well if the host is responsible and jumps to action if there are delays it should stay moving, but we all know how irresponsible the host is

well if the host is responsible and jumps to action if there are delays it should stay moving, but we all know how irresponsible the host is

tru dat

Turn 6 played and sent on.

played and sent

Turn 7 Played and Sent.

played and sent 007

sent

RE- send of turn 8 again (24 hours after I sent it yesterday.)

Deshelbr - We need to figure out what the hell is wrong with our email connection. Why are my first sends always ignored/not delivered? (I never get a rejection or an acknowledgment)

rubber, unless deshelbr has acknowledged receipt of the game cold you upload the turn here on the thread so at least the game can move despite the email difficulties, deshelbr, can you confirm if you got the save or not please?

:mad: :wallbash: :aargh: :saiyan:

Turn 8 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Equality008a.SAV)

Turn 8 has been played and sent.

Turn 9 sent to Desh both in email and available here:

Turn 9 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Equality009a.SAV)

Turn 9 played and sent.

game is moving nicely now, :goodjob:

Just in case it needs it to keep moving nicely... turn 10 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Equality010a.SAV)
Sent by Email also.

that is appreciated rubberjello

Turn 10 played and sent.

Turn 11 played and sent.

did everyone secretly move to a different thread and not tell me?

nope, we are still here. Been wondering where the turn was though until I got it last night.

Turn 12 played and sent.

Yep, I got, played, sent also. This is about the only game I have played in a while that has been nice to me. My starting position kinda sucks, ok, it does suck, but I have had some nice luck lately.

hope your luck turns sour : D

Turn 13 played and sent.

appreciate the turn post deshebr, i will try to do likewise

sent

Turn 13 played and sent.

sent

sent

Turn 15 played and sent.

sent

Turn 16 played and sent.

gps

what does gps mean?

Got it, Played it, Sent it = gps

Turn 17 played and sent.

sent

Turn 18 was played and sent to Greeneclan a few days ago. Is that Predesad? I don't know if I'm the one that needs to move the turn or not.

The Greeneclan addy is Dogboy, who is the person you need to send to. (If I remember the sequence of players correctly.)

I certainly hope nothing major has happened to to Predesad health-wise. I'm betting more on the fact that his wife gave him the "It's me or the Computer" speech, and he's buried deep in the doghouse. (We've all been there, buddy!) ;)

Ahh, glad that the forums are back up. I'm the greenclan e-mail. Last I saw of the save was on May 8.

I found a replacement for Predesad. Predesad has given me his password and I have found a replacement for the game. I will send the save to him and the replacemement. The game lives!

Ok, I sent the game to the replacement but what is the e-mail address he needs to send the game to?

Great News! I hope he knows about all the changes in this particular game!
He can send it to me. rubberjello at yahoo dot com
BTW If you have found out exactly what happened to Predesad, please email me or PM me. I am interested on a personal level. When I PMd his account, all I got was "will pass on message".

We're rolling again. Sent to Desh. Dang! Why can't we attach .SAV files?

Turn 18 save to Desh (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Equality018e.SAV)

OK, turn played and sent. That was turn 19, not turn 18, I guess predesad was the one changing the number in the file. I got confused, sorry about the delay.

Turn 19 played and sent on to Desh.
(Attached here also)

Turn 20 played and sent.

Turn 21 played and sent.

Hmmm...did we screw up on the turn number somewhere? Can you check this one out Desh and make sure you playe(d) it?

Turn 22 played and sent. Yes, we did screw up the turn number. I guess predesad was the one switching the number every time before. Now, I'm the one doing it, but that means some of us will see a lower turn number than we should. I figure it doesn't really matter and we can just keep going.

Cool, glad everything is on track. This game is getting interesting. For instance, should I build endiku warriors for MP or should I build hoplites or even numidian mercanaries? They cost different shields and could speed up/slow down my expansion based upon which ones I pick. But picking a weak one could leave me open to attack. And how many scouts on this huge map? I'm having fun with this game.

just played and sent

Yes. I thought initially 4 scouts would be enough, but now I'm considering building more. I still have not met a single opponent! (And I've explored at *least* 1/10th of the entire map, by my estimation.) Barb camps are starting to spring up though, which we knew was coming.

I've had pretty bad luck at hut-popping lately. I think I'm getting behind on techs.

Turn 23 played and sent.

Got it and am playing it now.

Got it and sent onto Desh. But since my first 2 emails always seem to disappear to Desh :rolleyes: , I'll post it here also.

Turn 24 played and sent. I'm eventually getting all of the e-mails you send, sometimes there is a delay and sometimes I just can't check my e-mail often enough.

Hmmm...Looks like this game is lagging a tad...and for once it is not the handoff between Desh and myself! [dance]

I thing Desh needs to send turn 24 on to Dogboy (again?) That seems to be the holdup.

rubberjello i sent you turn 24, and i send it again. odd that you get all my other e-mails but you are not getting this one. i will post it here.

No. I've been getting them. But I've already played turn 24 3 days ago, and so has Desh.

Well, I never got turn 25 so either Desh never sent it to me or my e-mail ate it. Either way, can you send the turn again?

Turn 25??? How can you expect to get turn 25 when I haven't got it, and I go before you? :confused:
Anyway...here is the last turn I got and played (turn 24).

I guess that download wasn't meant for me. Where is desh at?

Good question. I sent a couple of emails asking him to send his latest turn to Dogboy. (again?)

*sigh* Either:
a. His ISP or computer went down.
b. He's very busy at school with finals coming up (assuming he's in school)
c. Went on summer vacation for a week.
d. He found a girl friend and he's *fill in blank here*.
e. He's dead.

I sure hope it's "d".

Whoa!! Sorry, it was work related and I didn't have a connection. I got shipped to New York on sudden notice due to a customer emergency and just got back last night. I've been completely cut off from the internet and was so busy I forgot about our game. I'm back now, things should be normal for a while.

Turn 25 played and sent.

That's cool, I guess I should have added choice (f) work related. I was hoping it was choice (d) as that would have been the best reason.

played and sent