I am now planning together "The Old Empires World War 2" to be launched from the main thread. Naturally, there are many things that will need to be discussed about the scenario and things to do with it for this new version. A BETA will not come for a long time naturally, but I will still need a basis for what will be created.

The Storyline is the most obvious thing to debate over. I will stick to the Idea that the allies win WWI, but what will be different in the end with these new kingdoms. Here are some of the things I want or was thinking about.

- Italians will revolt and take Northern Italy under Mussolini
- Mongolia will dominate Mesopotamia and have taken over Tibet
- Zululand will dominate south africa absolutely
- Revolts in Latin America, independence movements

Next would be features of the scenario. What units should be added? What special wonders or governments should be added?

After that, Ill make the BETA and it can be tested out.

If this is a "sequel" to TOE, shouldn't Italy be Byzantium?

Assuming this is true, how about a Germany, Spain, Mongolia, Byzantium Axis. All four would be dictatorships trying to add land/keep land, and would have common enemies:

Germany, Mongolia vs. Russia (USSR?)

Germany, Byzantium vs. France

Germany, Spain vs. Great Britain

Spain vs. Latin America, USA

Mongolia vs. China (split?), USA, Whatever is left of Mesopotamia (if any), and Japan (or Japan could be Axis, trying to take the Pacific islands).

Whetther you use my ideas or not, please leave the Axis/Allies in locked alliances, like in the early versions of TOE.

Units: Definiately the PTW WW2 set. I don't really know what else is out there, but an atomic bomb would be awesome!

Wonders/Improvements: Lots of unit producing ones. Tank factories, Draft Offices, Airports, etc.

Governments: Fascism, Democracy, Republic, Communism. I think that should cover it. Whatever you do, please have little to no war weariness. Although it was definately there in WW2, it did not affect the war nearly as much as, for instance, Vietnam.

Thank you so much for doing this. I've always wanted to get to WW2 and the Cold War in the original TOE, but i never did. This will be an awesome scenario.

If you post a list of the civs I can help you configure this scenario because of my experience with TOE.. I've played as every single civ except Tibet.

Governments should be Fascism, Nazism, Democracy, Constitutional Monarchy, Absolute Monarchy, Theocracy, Socialism, and Stalinism.

Countries in plan:

British Empire
German Reich
USSR
France
Japan
Nationalist China
Communist China
USA
Brazil
Mexico
Siam
Fascist Italy
Byzantine Empire
Mongolia
Zululand
Poland
Spain
Portugal
Norse Empire
Columbia
Netherlands
Belgium
Arabia

I think some cool wonders would be ones that would generally seem like they should apply to older things but have something more modern to them. Maybe like a Knight's Templar wonder that produces like a tank, air craft, or modern infantry.

You always use basic wonders too, such as the League of Nations, and United Nations.

And if this is for Conquest can't you go full out with 31 nations instead of 22? unless you would rather keep it that way

id rather keep it as fast as possible, this is a massive scenario.

what map are you planning to use?

British Infantry
British Colonial Troops
Spitfire
Churchill Tank

German Infantry
FW 190
ME 109
ME 262
Bismarck
Panzer
Tiger
King Tiger
U- Boat

American Infantry
M4 Sherman
P-51
P-38
Pershing
US Marines
Enterprise

Soviet Infantry
T-34
Yak
KV-1

Japanese Infantry
Japanese Marines
Kamikaze
Yamato

Italian Infantry

Infantry

88MM Flak Gun
Siege Gun
Field Gun
AA Gun
Artillery
Howlitzer

Motorized Infantry
Mechanized Infantry
Cavalry
Paratroopers
Marines
Colonial Troops
Guerillas

Mongol Heavy Cavalry
Byzantine Guardsmen
Norse Battlecruisers
Zulu Riflemen

If someone can find unit graphics, id like it quite a bit.

Originally posted by Al Zan
what map are you planning to use?

most likely the same map. otherwise id use rhyes map.

Okay, I'll help :).

I'd recommend Rhye's map. Europe is much bigger meaning everything won't be crammed. Also it is 180x180 so it won't have a monster load time.

Originally posted by Gogf
Okay, I'll help :).
thank you :)

I agree with you on that silver, Rhye's map it is.

Projected release of this scenario:

Early to Mid May

Sarevok,

I really wish you good luck with this project.

50% off all players choose not to play alternate
history scenarios for some reason.

Best Regards

Rocoteh

I understand that. I intend to give them a version of TOE they would want to play, despite alternate history.

in TOE WW2, this is what I have come up eith for the zulu:

The Zulu joined the allies in hopes of gaining german SW and East, promised to them by the british. After the war however, the btirish gave them neither even though they were immesurably helpful in the war. Disgusted, they seized the lands themselves along with British Nyasaland, Portugese angola and Mozambique as well. The British could do nothing about it, too exhasusted from WWI, and its population after the disastirous British-Zulu war had no intention of repeating the experience. Though at odds, the British have no desire to fight the zulu again and always are cautious not to offend them lest they sieze more european colonies, something the well trained and nearly as high-tech as europe's weapon using Zulu Army can do with ease.

I would add this.. The mongels entered the war on the axis side in order to kill thier enemy the Russian empire. They were doing very well and they were about to crush them but then Russian tanks came in (thanks to the help of the French) And crushed the Mongol army ever sience then the Mongols hated the Russians and are eager to get revenge...

The mongols are an independent power in this, they dont attack russia, instead siezing Iraq and Tibet.

Ok well at least I can say I tried.

Sarevok,

Is this your last alternate history project?

Rocoteh

almost certainly.

Sarevok, what about having Venice instead of Fascist Italy (perhaps make it Fascist Vernice) to give credit to Venice's development around 1400/1500 A.D.?
The history could be: Due to their great fleet they were able to get rid of the Byzantines' pressing occupation and freed northern Italy of B. Due to that, they were enemies of the B. and joined the Germans in WWII to fight the B. and to drive them out of Italy completely.

CellKu

actually, Italy was under byzantine control in TOE. Going around that, a revolution in italy instead sticks with the story.

Oh, I see. So TOE WWII will be based on TOE WWI also with respect to the whole history? So scenario changes will only be made as to a development from TOE WWI to TOE WWII?

that is correct. :)

I look forward to this scenario!:D

Im am too :)

Sarevok- i am willing to help on this project!

in what way?

Currently planned New units:

British Infantry
French Infantry
German Infantry (1939-42)
German Infantry (1943-45)
US Infantry (1939-42)
US Infantry (1943-45)
Soviet Infantry (1939-42)
Soviet Infantry (1943-45)
Japanese Infantry
US Marines
Commonwealth Infantry

Matilda
Churchill
Panzer IV
Tiger
Tiger II
Sherman
Pershing
T-34/76
T-34/85
KV-1

Spitfire
FW-190
ME-109
ME-262
P-38
P-51
Yak
Zero

I know its still a long time off, but i would like to make you remember something you once said

Volum: For good suggestions for small changes to be made. Also did the testing that uncovered a large amount of bugs in the scenario before final release.

I would like to volunter as a beta tester once again, when the time comes :)

Volum

Sarevok - I will help you out if you want. I can find graphics for most of the units listed on page one, can even throw in a dora rail gun if you like (though I havn't yet made any myself I will start doing so as soon as I find some software).

Will you be making it on the same size map? Because if you make a smaller map, that'll lead to fewer cities, which leads to fewer units, which leads to turns that are less than 10 minutes long!:crazyeye:

He said he was going to make it on Rhyes 180x180 map.

so yes it will be smaller as the last map was over 256X

Im glad that you will help out Phoenix and Volum, good to see old freinds back for the ride :)

Originally posted by
Sarevok
in what way?

like a beta tester and city placement.

oh yes, as always Al Zan, your help is much appreciated.

storyline finished, will be posted later.

Great :D

What will have changed border-wise? Will Byzantium be even weaker/stronger?

I guess I should wait for the plot to be posted, eh?:crazyeye:

itsd pretty intewresting.... Byzantium gains and loses a bit

Allow me to predict out-loud;).

Byzantium succeeds in wreaking sweet, holy revenge on the Ottomans for what they did hundreds of years ago by annexing them, but loses Italy to Fascist Rebels.

Did I get it right?:D

somehing like that. :)

ill go by civ and what they have done...

Byzantium:

Annexes Anatolia, but loses Nothern Italy to a Fascist Rebellion led by Mussolini. Generally, they are 2nd in technology only to Germany but are weakened militarily. They are facing internal corruption and cries for democracy which are beginning to overwhelm them. Revolts in Eithiopia, Greece, and Trukey have begun and threaten to tear the empire apart. They are currently Neutral in the alliances

In WWI, they joined the allies after Turkey entered the war, and had limited fighting against the Austrians.

Zululand:

Joins Allies in WWI to sieze German colonies, but the british stole them after promising them to the Zulu. Disgusted, the Zulu sieze southern Africa up to the Congo and Kenya. At this point they are neutral, as the british do not want a conflict with them on any terms.

Spain:

Spain stays neutral in WWI, much against the population's wishes which leads to upheavel in the colonies in latin america. Latin america evcentually revolts and gains independence when Franco leads his revolt in Spain. The Colonies are combined into the State of Columbia, but that land is now covered in revolutionaries and threatens the stability of the whole continent.

Portugal:

Portugal joined the Allies in WWI, but suffered heavily after the war at the hands of the Zulu's, losing Angola and Mozambique. This led the way for a Fascist Revolt led by communist and Nationalist revolts that tore the country apart. The Government fled to Brazil and made it the new nation. Portugal has been somewhat stabilized after the civil war from 1921 to 1935, but is still rather filled with anarchy. It has a republican government, but it is barely held together.

Mongolia:

Mongolia attacked Turkey in 1916, siezing mesopotamia after the british were driven out to Kuwait. They hold Modern-day Iraq, and they Siezed Tibet. They lost most of Kazakstan however to the USSR, and are at this time at odds over the British in India and the Middle east. Mongolia is stable, but nationalism is becoming a problem for them to contain.

there are 5 of the civs general histories.

Wow those are very good!

Did the U.S.A. enter the war if so on what side and were are they technolagically?

they did as they were in history. They entered in 1917, but after the war went back into isolation. No changes from history for the USA

Originally posted by Happyman
Wow those are very good!

That is true!! Very well done!!

thanks :)

Wonderful!:goodjob:

Whatever happened to Austria-Hungary? Personally, If they didn't survive, I'd give 'em to Byzantium, as in your readme, it says something about Byzantium overunning Austria-Hungary.

And what of Russia? Is it the USSR, or did the revolution fail?

they fought them, they didnt overrun them at all. that territory will go to Germany mostly as most of those nations allied with Germany in WW2

give us some info on England!
please!

Britain wil generally be the same, they have just lost some land to the zulu.

What about Russia?:) I'd also like to know if the Empire of Japan exanded into China.:)

the USSR entered kazakstan, and japan did ho into china

what is going on in Germany?

Germany is historical, they lose WWI, hitler comes in... all that good stuff.

Storyline is officvially done, now we move on to the features...

What features should be put in?

Originally posted by Sarevok
Storyline is officvially done, now we move on to the features...

What features should be put in?

What about USA anexing western Canada?, I know that the people in western Canada play with that idea in the 70's. They think Canada is to liberal for them:D

What about colony capitols(one for each continent)? Also, what about making improvements like 'Kurd House' and make them give -1 happiness, to represent the unhappiness of peoples being governed by others and their likeliness to revolt.

Originally posted by Sarevok
ill go by civ and what they have done...

Byzantium:

Annexes Anatolia, but loses Nothern Italy to a Fascist Rebellion led by Mussolini. Generally, they are 2nd in technology only to Germany but are weakened militarily. They are facing internal corruption and cries for democracy which are beginning to overwhelm them. Revolts in Eithiopia, Greece, and Trukey have begun and threaten to tear the empire apart. They are currently Neutral in the alliances

In WWI, they joined the allies after Turkey entered the war, and had limited fighting against the Austrians.

What do you think if they got Jerusalem, clear religious intention, and Damascus, plus Anatolia, from the Ottomans, and Belgrade and Sofia from the war with Austria. Romania and Serbia were under russian protection only because was the most powelful ortodox state.

And what about an alliance with Russia, after all the emperor of Byzantium was the chieff in the ortodox church.

Originally posted by Sarevok
Zululand:

Joins Allies in WWI to sieze German colonies, but the british stole them after promising them to the Zulu. Disgusted, the Zulu sieze southern Africa up to the Congo and Kenya. At this point they are neutral, as the british do not want a conflict with them on any terms.

I really love this one, but one of the peace conditions must be having the same tecnological level that the others countries in Europe, specially England, and be a menber of one of tha alliances in Europe.

Originally posted by Androrc
What about colony capitols(one for each continent)? Also, what about making improvements like 'Kurd House' and make them give -1 happiness, to represent the unhappiness of peoples being governed by others and their likeliness to revolt.

VERY good idea! ill do that for sure!

Originally posted by Metacomet


I really love this one, but one of the peace conditions must be having the same tecnological level that the others countries in Europe, specially England, and be a menber of one of tha alliances in Europe.

they are, the europeans saw the zulu as a potential future ally in africaso modernized them.

Originally posted by Metacomet


What do you think if they got Jerusalem, clear religious intention, and Damascus, plus Anatolia, from the Ottomans, and Belgrade and Sofia from the war with Austria. Romania and Serbia were under russian protection only because was the most powelful ortodox state.

And what about an alliance with Russia, after all the emperor of Byzantium was the chieff in the ortodox church.

They will be awarded Jerusalem, but Syria is French. Belgrade and sofia would remain as they were independent nations though Sofia will be German as they allied with Germany in WW2

Sarevok,

Can you write the storyline for all the civilizations and then I can make more comments.

And What about USA anexing western Canada?(post 64)

uhh, thats something id rather not do...

Originally posted by Metacomet
Sarevok,

Can you write the storyline for all the civilizations and then I can make more comments.

And What about USA anexing western Canada?(post 64)
but why Canada?
i would like to see the storyline of civilization too!

There arent going to be any drastic changes in the game that do not tie in with the storyline and the game. In other words, no unrealistic annexations can occur that do not tie in with the story.

The final storyline will be posted with the scenairo, but a rough storyline will be posted in time. I will now begin work on the scenairo itself.

Originally posted by Al Zan

but why Canada?


Because in the 70's it was a political and social movement in the western Canada, and their goal was the secesion from Canada and the annexion to the USA.

Today there is a lot of people in Western Canada that want this union, because they feel that Eastern Canada is too liberal (gay marriage, legal marihuana, oposition to the war in Iraq, less religious life...) and they feel better represented for the conservative america. Ussually this movement have more importance with a republican withe house.

Originally posted by Sarevok
Spain:

Spain stays neutral in WWI, much against the population's wishes which leads to upheavel in the colonies in latin america. Latin america evcentually revolts and gains independence when Franco leads his revolt in Spain. The Colonies are combined into the State of Columbia, but that land is now covered in revolutionaries and threatens the stability of the whole continent.

What do you think about Spain lossing a few colonies but not all, and then the spanish kingdom fighting against the new State of Columbia to regain the old spanish empire in America.

Spain can keep the caribean (They lost the last caribean colonies in 1898), Peru (was the most loyalist colony in South America), and Central America (Mexicans after broking the alliance with Spain are fighting to conquer the area for themselves).

the spanish will absolutely have resistance forces, but they wont have nay cities there. They will be loked wityh portugal and mexico against the 2 new states Columbia and Brazil.

Originally posted by Sarevok
the spanish will absolutely have resistance forces, but they wont have nay cities there. They will be loked wityh portugal and mexico against the 2 new states Columbia and Brazil.

I think that Spain and Portugal are too weak, maybe you can create an Iberian Confederation. As a matter fact in the 40's Salazar and Farnco were really close to do it. What do you think?, and it's not an unrealistic annexation or something like that. There is a lot of historic facts that help to make this movement.

Ill take that, Ill put Franco in charge of the "Iberian Confederation"

Why is Portugal fighting Brazil? Historically, Brazil had it's independence through Portugal's prince Dom Pedro. It was peaceful... We had to pay the Portuguese some money, though:P. Maybe Dom Pedro never did Brazil's independence and a revolt happened? Or maybe the 'Inconfidencia Mineira'(a conspiracy against the Portuguese crown in Brazil) successful, and they brought the rest of the of the country into revolt too...

Originally posted by Sarevok
Ill take that, Ill put Franco in charge of the "Iberian Confederation"

I agree, Franco must be the leader of the Iberian Confederation.

What about more storylines, do you think you can give us the storylines for all the civilizations?

the independence in this case is a violent one after a coup in Portugal forced the government to go to Brazil which made the spanish SA colonies revolt. Its now a war as the Iberians have landed troops to fight the revolutionaries.

Originally posted by Sarevok
the independence in this case is a violent one after a coup in Portugal forced the government to go to Brazil which made the spanish SA colonies revolt. Its now a war as the Iberians have landed troops to fight the revolutionaries.

Do you think it's any real chance for them to recover their american empire?

no, it is mearely a place fr some serious trouble to brew up and create some good fun for a player there :)

Sarevok,

I know that you are too bussy, but do you think that you are gonne be able to give us the storylines of other civilizations. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Sarevok,

How do you plan to represent the "Call for Democracy" in Byzantium? Up WW and Corruption in the Roman Monarchy? Or perhaps couple that with lotsa barbarians by Byzantine cities.:)

Just spoutin off some ideas.:)

thats what I had in mind.

What happen with the german colonies in Africa?

EDIT: What about egypt? are a British dominion?

Ooh! And also here's another idea on how to make WW2 in a broadened scope: Stalin was a big imperialist. The Soviet Union in general was imperialist. So how's about this: the USSR invades Kazakhstan aka Mongolis, and this sparks and Asian WW2. Hirohoto, desperately wanting land and resources existing in Mongol territory joins up with the USSR. Mongolia desperately needs aid to fight of the USSR and Japan, so turns to Byzantium. The Byzantines would agree, because a glorious victory over Russia would restore faith in the monarchy. Byzantium would then drag in the Allies.

I'm not so sure about the alliance with Byzantium, tho. Perhaps Mongolia could join the Allied forces. Because they do this, it would involve the (European) Central Powers in Asia, which would help to make it more interesting.:)

Once more, spoutin' off ideas.:)

thats too much of a change. Byznatium wont fight Russia.

Im looking for features, not storyline info. What units do youwnat in the iscenario?

Features? Hmm... Units, units, units...

I'm not really sure what exactly would change, unit-wise, from this WW2 scen to the real thing...

Perhaps we could add some sort of "Ottoman Fighter" unit for Byzantium... Former Ottoman soldiers with real skill...

We could also add some sort of Tank unique to Byzantium... I've always wondered if Byzantium would ever get a UU, like the British Fighter, etc...

Edit: D'oh! Just realized I was thinking of units out of a different scenario.:blush:

Will there be UUs in this scenario? That's the first thing I gotta know before I start brainstorming.:blush:

yes, but I need unit graphics for all of them. Post links to them here as I have no time to search for myself.

Have the Dutch kept the Indies, French kept Vietnam, and British still in control of India, and Burma? Will Mongolia have tanken any land in South Asia, or is it historical? If it is, has Japan moved into Indochina by the start?

How do the South American wars, play into the larger spectrum? do the allies support the revolutions with Franco alligned with Hitler?

Maybe the Byzantines could have a Greek fire tank, or submarine. Kind of weird, but it might be interesting.

Asia is historical concerning colonies, though mongolia has siezed Tibet.

Hitler supports franco but wont help him out.

Ok, the reason I brought this up, is I remembered you saying Mongolia seized Tibet, but I was thinking that could easily have pushed Japan to set out for it's empire earlier, in fear of Mongolia taking it all before they got their chance.

mongolia isnt a powerful nation anymore. They are highly feared, but they have serious economic trouble that prevents them form waging major wars.

Yeah, I can see that happening too. It would probaly cost them more to upkeep their empire then they would make from it.

thats what is the cirrent situation.

Im in dire need to have my custom units and graphics before I work on the map itself...

Nevermind, I got the grahics I need. Im open for suggestions.

Sarevok, if the Byzantines annexed just Anatolia, then who does the rest of Ottoman territory go to?:hmm:

Palestine, Jordan, Kuwait = UK
Syria, Lebanon = France
Iraq = Mongolia
Turkey = Byzanium

Because this thread has been ikind of "killed"due to time, its purpouses are transfered to the main TOE thread where I am posting specifics on unit strengths.