And out of the north they came............

By now it is no secret that we have met Civ3Brazil. Until our two nations ratify some kind of treaty, free exploration is still open to both of us. Since their warrior was standing atop the hill I had wanted Edward to climb, I sent our primitive diplomat east --- where he discovered a Mountain.

Should we check out that mountain? Or mirror the dark green warrior?

And here are our two cities. I have tentatively set them both to Settlers, but this can be changed. A Warrior may be nice out of Thunder Falls just in case the western landmass widens past Wally's ambitions. ;)

Also important ---- what to do with our new Warrior? I sent him in a non-committal move directly east because I am torn between uncovering the Southeast or protecting the canal city site if C3B makes it there in optimum time. Should they realize the importance of this location and squat during our NAP, we could lose the location.

Worst-case scenario, but it could happen.......what do you think we should do?

Keep the 2 cities on settler build and send Eddie jr to the choke point. :)

FYI, I forgot to grab a full map pic this turn....

But here is a city screen of Thunder Falls. As you can see, we will probably not get much production out of this city so we may want to consider it as a possible worker farm, where it builds an improvement, then a worker, back to improvement/unit etc.

Also, I plan on irrigating the Ivory tile next turn followed by a road.

Let me know what you think.

I think that we should build the settler ASAP to make the canal city. The northern warrior should go to the mountain, as it will take C3B many turns to get to our homeland

We need to explore west and south-west of our cities ASAP to know where to settle next city. Everything else is not so urgent IMO. Building canal town now would be just a waste of precious settler. If we don't expand rapidly enough, we would not be able to protect that city. And if we out-expand C3B, we don't need it for protection.

Edited: To become a good worker farm, Thunder Falls needs a granary. Otherwise, it may be a military producer after barracks. The city has limited growth potential before Monarchy/Republic but decent shield output even in Despotism.

Thank you for that zoomed in picture Donovan Zoi. I think I might have missed their warrior otherwise. :rolleyes: ;)

I'm all for both cities building settlers right now. We need to pump them out.

akots has made an excellent statement and I second it.

As long as we do not have mathamatics we should build settlers and maybe a couple of workers. But as soon as we can we should prebuild the SoZ maybe even hiding it by putting all of the shields in the pyramids or some expencive wonder like that.

Looks like a giant fleshy green blob to me. Next time DZ, use a better lens :p.

My wishes:
è Move Edward to Mountain;
è Set TF and Fantazuma to Warrior !
è Do not build Canal City;
è Do not build Granary in TF (not enough food bonus to justify);
è OK to Irrigate/road Ivory;
è Send new warrior on the hill SW of Fantazuma;

I wonder what DZ is planning on doing since we are at least 2 sides here?

Honestly, I feel that we’re preparing for a big mistake, unless you’re going to do what I suggest and I would like to request a poll for every important move that we disagree on. One is definitely the Canal City, second is the current build in TF and Fantazuma if there are others that think like me.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I see that TF can reach size 3 in 14 turns the earliest, so we don’t need more shields out of it. We could build a warrior, a worker and then a settler all in 20 turns, so a delay of 6 turns for the settler, for a worker and a warrior as a bonus. Also the worker could build up to 5 sections of road and save the settelr two turns towards destination, for a total delay of 4 turns.

On Fantazuma is a similar situation, an extra warrior could be sent towards C3B while the delay for the settler would not be important.

If we poll and the result is against my wishes than so be it, but otherwise, well, I would be unhappy.

Yndy, I totally back that.

As Military Dude I am requesting Yndy's build order for our soldiering functions. I want to place two warriors gaurding the canal, UNFORTIFIED.

I would concour that Yndy.

Also, the good part about warriors is that they equal 2 spearmen in defensive value. :).

I dont understand these 2 points. I would be grateful for help. :)

1). Why is building more settlers now is a bad idea when we need more cities and we are not at war with anyone?

2). Why building a city at the choke point is a bad idea when 2 warriors there look like a hostile act but a city doesn't? Also we dont want another civ to settle there do we?

Thanks

I like Yndy's points of view and I concur.

I do think we need to settle West before East/landbridge. Except for a city 2 or 3 tiles north of the Landbridge. Not to be a great city, or even a defensive city; but to mark our border and support our claim to that area. Somewhere in the red area, or even just outside the red area.

worst case scenario: C3B attacks and captures that city in a sneak attack.
If the city is lost, we have about 10 turns (if unroaded) before they reach our capital, which should be enough to prepare our defences / counterattack.

We can't support a large population until we have a 2nd lux, or temples, or are willing to set a lux slider. With this in mind, we should aim for getting settlers or workers concurrent with growth.

If by canal city you mean the point 6NE of Fanatazuma, it will be limited in growth due to lack of fresh water for irrigation, and is not a true choke point, but is an important location later in the game.

We need to explore S, SW, W ASAP and determine if the better FP land is to the NE or to the W.

It is time (maybe past time) to start thinking about a MP strategy and plan our builds accordingly. This strategy list (http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=106947) on Apolyton has some interesting information.

If we plan to be militaristic then a barracks now would provide plenty of delay before the next settler.

One question is also, where should we build the SoZ?

We could:

~Build it in TF, which means that we could use the palace as prebuild, but it has low size and spt potential...

~build it in Fanatazuma, we would get quite nice spt, but we wouldn't have palace as a prebuild choice...

~build it in a new city... but where?

1). Why is building more settlers now is a bad idea when we need more cities and we are not at war with anyone?
Two reasons:
- settlers without workers means a short lived advantage. One of the best tips for early development is: build a worker in every new city before any long-term constructions.
- we do not have enough food bonus to continuously build settlers and not lose production; a couple of military units before the settlers would not cause much delay to the overall build sequence, but would help exploration, defense, settler protection, Military police.

2). Why building a city at the choke point is a bad idea when 2 warriors there look like a hostile act but a city doesn't? Also we dont want another civ to settle there do we?

Because of waste of early resources. Every city we build early on is a base for future development. A city with limited growth potential, lack of irrigation and lack of road connection in the foreseeable future (rough terrain, long distance) cannot serve for anything else then a forward base with no development potential. 2 warriors look like a STOP sign, which is exactly want we want them to look like.

I would reconsider the Canal City for landgrabbing reasons only when I see the first C3B city in the area. The area should be continually scouted by us and we should claim it as our area and eventually agree to a disputed DMZ.

Ankka, lets hold that for now, I'm also pondering between the two sites but either way the decision is to be made after the next two settlers emerge.

Originally posted by DaveShack
It is time (maybe past time) to start thinking about a MP strategy and plan our builds accordingly. This strategy list (http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=106947) on Apolyton has some interesting information.

We started thinking in due time. Check this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77878) thread and meybe we should continue there. We can't really do the dagger thingie, we don't have choking unit, we can't really sledgehammer C3B with Javelins against potential Immos.

That's why I suggested what the guy at Poly would call Double Castle: Find a good ally and squash the others.

I agree wit hYndy, let's find a good ally (C3B?) And then crush the others.

Simple and effective. :)

Great points of discussion, Yndy. Let me give you my thoughts and the need for polling of each. If these are unresolved when I return at around 2100 GMT, then I will run our first official poll(s). :)

Move Edward to Mountain

No arguments here. No poll necessary.

Set TF and Fantazuma to Warrior !

Let's compromise and build a Warrior in one and a Settler in the other. We can hold the canal site with one Warrior. If there is still major disagreement after this compromise, we can poll. However, we can't get too reactionary and delay settlement over this, especially since we should be signing a treaty.

Do not build Canal City

I agree with this thinking for now. We should secure our two remaining river sites for best early growth. We can poll this if there is still a major divide.

Do not build Granary in TF (not enough food bonus to justify)

I agree with this as well; also low early production would have us waiting forever for the Granary to be complted. Don't think a poll is necessary here either.

OK to Irrigate/road Ivory

Agreed. No poll necessary.

Send new warrior on the hill SW of Fantazuma

If you are talking about the one I just sent east, then I disagree as he needs to high-tail it to the canal site. The next Warrior we build out of (preferably) Fanatzuma could check out the area you speak of. Don't think a poll is necessary here either.


OK, everyone. Let's weigh in on these important issues and I will be back later today to poll them. :)

Let's compromise and build a Warrior in one and a Settler in the other. We can hold the canal site with one Warrior. If there is still major disagreement after this compromise, we can poll. However, we can't get too reactionary and delay settlement over this, especially since we should be signing a treaty.
We cannot hold the canal with one warrior, hence the need for a second one built in Fantazuma.

If you are talking about the one I just sent east, then I disagree as he needs to high-tail it to the canal site. The next Warrior we build out of (preferably) Fanatzuma could check out the area you speak of. Don't think a poll is necessary here either.

I just noticed you already moved it East. Returning would be useless, but we then need one warrior out of Fantazuma to head North and complete the blockade and one Warrior out of TF, to head South.

I support DZ with all the points. Build warrior in TF and move him to explore SW. Move current warrior near Capital to canal site and stay there walking around alert. Capital has to build settler IMO otherwise our retarded growth would be completely crippled. TF can build barracks and start on JT in prespective or make a worker sometimes later. For now, it can just grow a bit on its own. Granary there would be useless now, as it was discussed previously.

Re Global strategy. I do support the idea of Yndy. This makes our life easier indeed. Is there a list of players of the teams we are playing with? I read some posts on the UN site but for example, our team roster was not updated. Again I would repeat that IMO Bremp is the strongest player of all teams I've seen in UN unless they changed the rosters and added some other players. Getting well along with C3B by making a deal is a very good idea. Just because they would be not our enemy. They would not brake it legally if everything is put in writing however ruthless they might be. Please then make sure that all circumstances are noted and discussed.

I would also suggest an AW-type build plan. It includes:
1) Cities can be built maximum 3 tiles distance from each other. This also can enhance our agricultural benefit.
2) Cities build only settlers, workers and military.
3) No improvements can be built before Forbidden Palace.
Exceptions -
a) Granaries in +5 fpt cities.
b) Barracks in cities with more than 4spt.
c) Walls in some cities on the border that are high probability attack targets.
d) Wonders (SoZ) with proper prebuild, all improvements and joined workers. We don't want to waste that many shields.
4) After FP, we can build markets for happiness if we survive to this point.

I just updated the list at the UN. Sorry, I had forgotten about it...

Thanks Yndy. :)

Originally posted by akots
repeat that IMO Bremp is the strongest player of all teams I've seen in UN

CDZ - annares, very strong player, extensive experience in PBEM, probably highest from all teams, all others in CDZ have experience in PBEM;

CGN - don't know them well, seem to be pretty good judging from the other MSDG.

GCA - Lucky, very good player; Eklektikos, good player as well.

C3B - Bremp, very strong player, Pggar, good player as well.

Me or Matrix can talk to annares and the other guys at CDZ, when we meet them ingame, and hopefully we could reach to an agreement but we need to look powerful at the time.

I like your build plan, akots.

I wrote out a huge post addressing everything last night, but when I submited, it asked me to log-in, and it was lost :(
Here is a kinda different, and shortened one: --- note: It's not in chronological order.

Set TF and Fantazuma to Warrior !


I agree. After both warriors, we should build settlers.

Do not build Canal City


I completely agree. Our next 2 cities should be SE and SW of the capital.

Do not build Granary in TF (not enough food bonus to justify)


We don't need a granary anywhere.

Send new warrior on the hill SW of Fantazuma

I am in agreement with DZ on this one.
The TF warrior should go to the Canal, and the Fanatazum one should explore SW.

I agree wit hYndy, let's find a good ally (C3B?) And then crush the others.

This might just be me, but I am untrustworthy of 'allies' in Civ. I've been screwed over too many times in MP games. We should aim to attack C3B IMO - although note i'm not that experienced in multiplayer.
Edited: To become a good worker farm, Thunder Falls needs a granary. Otherwise, it may be a military producer after barracks. The city has limited growth potential before Monarchy/Republic but decent shield output even in Despotism.

I am against the concept of Thunder Falls being a worker farm.

One question is also, where should we build the SoZ?I don't think we should discuss this at the moment.

CDZ is a dream team I fear them the most. We don't need to win the entire game, do we? I'd try to get them as ally since I garantee: they won't be eliminated anyway, so the option is, eliminating the others with or without CDZ's help.

As Yndy said, the both of us are well known there and diplomacy with them should go very smoothly. :)

Originally posted by Yndy
CDZ - annares, very strong player, extensive experience in PBEM ...

Yes, he is strong. He sets the goal and then goes to it. The trick is to analyze the situation and set the correct goal. However, he is not wizard, just very strong player who knows everything. If misinformed, he can fail badly.

CGN - don't know them well, seem to be pretty good ...

Mostly DG and below SG player there with occasional Deity? Should be no problem unless there is somebody else we don't know.

GCA - Lucky, very good player

Lucky is a Strider-type universal player but probably stronger than Strider? Not so dangerous IMO. Just do not trade Invention to them. Better no trades at all.

C3B - Bremp, very strong player

Bremp is a wizard who can forsee multiple choices and leave room to pursue them all while focusing later on a major goal. Build temple, horde of Immortals and then get Space Race victory. Temple is a mystery to me though.

These comments are my personal opinion which may be wrong because I have little (if none) PBEM experience and may be misinformed. And no meaning of disrespect to any team. They are all very formidable.

Edited: Just noticed, CDZ have Skyfish. That's another exceptional player besides annares. Strong at mm and very focused.

But also one thing: We've got Yndy, DZ, CG, and many other experianced players from the other MSDG too...

Ankka, you forgot Cheetah :p
We have him, we win:)

Oh yeah. :)

And also Matrix, a good player and experienced in PBEM,

akots, dunno you much, but you seem to know what you're talking about,

Gainy Bo, a quite experienced PBEM-er


:D

Good sirs, May I suggest we build a city north and east of the future canal city as suggested my Rik Meleet with either the next or the following settler? We should be wary not to build our selves into a corner we can not move out of. If I was among the enemy I would strive to build a city in the canal area for the very purpose of blocking us in.
On another note...perhaps we could take advantage of the flood plains to increase our small population?

Gainy Bo, a quite experienced PBEM-er

:lol: no. I like to think that I know the game well though, as i've played it frequently since a month after it came out. I know how the AI works (which admittedly won't help us), and I know the mechanics of the game. I am an experienced SP'er, who can win at Deity, and in my only attempt at Sid, I almost won ;) (literally 10 turns)
I've never finished any PBEMs (not my fault), and only played a few. At most 6. I've also meagerly participated in 1 1/2 demogames.
Edit: I'm probably strongest at opening plays

Question to Akots: You seem to know players strengths throughout the community rather well, which will be useful. You mention someone being a "Strider type player", is Strider well known in the MP community or something? :confused:
If so, could you elaborate on his style?
Another thing, i've never really seen you before, could you tell us a bit about your experience? (ie GOTM, MP, PBEM etc) You seem to know what you're talking about... :) (although I don't agree with some of it)

Side note: This might be inexperience, but I don't see why everyone is preparing for the worst. No team will get any advantage over us like the AI would, all they have in favour of 'em is experience --- which doesn't always win the game.

Good sirs, May I suggest we build a city north and east of the future canal city as suggested my Rik Meleet with either the next or the following settler? We should be wary not to build our selves into a corner we can not move out of.

I would be completely and utterly against this. It would be more beneficial to create productive cities at the moment, and we would have to defend the city quite well if we didn't want to lose it. For all we know, C3B could have taken like 15 turns to get that warrior to where it is now, they could be as far away from there as we are - thus, we don't need to settle it so soon.
Besides all that, we really want our closest cities to have the lowest rank. This would be more beneficial in regards to corruption/prodctivity later on.

Originally posted by Gainy bo
... is Strider well known in the MP community or something? If so, could you elaborate on his style?
... could you tell us a bit about your experience? ...
Side note: This might be inexperience, but I don't see why everyone is preparing for the worst. ...

Strider is a well-know in MP community and is very young but strong. His style I got mainly from the posts which is mostly military rush. In large numbers, in proper time, and in proper direction. I'm currently playing a SG with him VS1, you can check the thread for details.

My experience lies mostly in brutal GOTM and SG with very limited MP and virtually none of PBEM. You can find everything in GOTM and SG forums over there. As well as in Conquest discussion about corruption and RNG, two topics I'm mostly interested. Meaning no dispespect to anyone, there are very few if none GOTM/SG players that frighten me and none MP. Don't know about PBEM. Among all teams, I would excercise extreme caution towards Bremp, Skyfish, and Anarres. Others is possible to just outplay if we do it right.

IMveryHO, we are losing the settler rush and need a food bonus for settler/worker factory for the next settler. Otherwise, the game is lost no matter what we do. It is bad to be small and poor. Hope that the bonus lies in the west.

Just beating Deity or trying to play Sid is not enough. Most players from most teams can do this, there is little trick in beating Deity. (Wonder if somebody told me this a year ago. No game should last to tanks!!! Everything can be done with knights and few thing with cavalry. If you play Deity and get to tanks, it is a weak game! Domination is always possible before 1000AD). We have very tough competition and must do everything accurately and professionally considering our crippled start. Another IMHO, but difficult single player or MP games are lost or won withint first 50 turns.

Sorry for the erratic post, got a couple of beers.