Good news! Steven Strayer, the creator of the popular Fascist Patch for Civ2, has released a Fascists patch for Civ3 a few days ago. The patch can be downloaded at the Fascist Modpack homepage:


2.2 Update now available
Okay, as of 20 April 2002, release 2.2 of the Fascist Patch is out with full support of the official 1.21f version of Civ3.


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

Sorry, but I dont feel good about this patch. I visited the website and dont like what I saw (especially the big picture of Hitler).

I know it's a patch for a game but honestly, I will never dowload it and install it. It really makes me uneasy. To me this patch seems to glorify fascism through the game "improvements" it will allows gamers.

I'm not too sure about the message of this patch nor the intentions of its author but I honestly dont think it is a good idea.

I believe this patch should be removed from this great site. It gives a horrible image and aura.

*feeling sick* :vomit:

I was interested in the patch -- I vaguely remember the fascist patch for Civ2 -- but opening the web page really disturbed me. It gives you the feeling the mod was designed by a white supremacy group, to spread their message. That may not be the case, but I for one have been put off already.

I don't mind fascism as a government for the game, nor in it bringing military benefits, but as the previous poster mentioned, this site seemed to celebrate it beyond the scope of a game mod. Also, I would imagine that fascism would come at some greater cost than are created by the mod, such as a lot of unhappy people, and probably--if it were possible--population decreases in all cities. Something to reflect the horrors of this form of government.

Armor
:sad: :sad: :sad: :rocket:

Actually, Fascist governments were typified by fierce loyalty by the people, and not unhappiness at all. This was a result of careful manipulation and persecution of minority groups. It would be more representative if this form of government eliminated foreign populations in all cities for example, and changed a portion of them into barbarians (partisans).

You can't ignore the historical significannce of Fascism, no matter how distasteful it was. Nuclear weapons are considered an abomination by many, but they are in the game.

I think it says a lot about you that you don't consider minority groups to be part of "the people." Do you think German and Italian Jews weren't generally long standing citizens of those countries? Or do you think they were "fiercely loyal" to their fascist governments?

Using words like typified does not make you an expert on this subject -- the successes and failures fascist regimes are the subject of ongoing academic debate, and are not made clear by the vulgar reductionism you employ. "The people" are not a monolithic entity that feels one way or the other, neither within nor between ethnic groups let alone the many other social cleavages that divide even the simplest human populations. Fascist regimes often employed secret police forces and systems of paid neighborhood-level informants (and rewards for citizens who turned in 'traitors') to keep their populations in line; wheras many (though certainly not all) party members may have been loyal, "the people" often kept their opinions to themselves for fear of 'disappearing' if they didn't.

Although fascism, as a form of government, is historically insignificant when compared with ancient forms such as monarchy or republic, I don't think anyone here is denying its role in history. As a choice of government for the game, I think it's a good idea if it's done correctly. But I think the difference between us is that we aren't celebrating fascism, and Hitler, as the web page for this mod appears to do.

Armor

I agree with armor.

I suspect the author of the mod to be a fascist himself. First who would quickly create a fascist mod? Ok, it could be an innocent gamer, or historic buff, but not likely. To me, it is an hitler wannabee who would want to gleefuly relive this part of history playing civ as hitler. Another purpose would be to "democratize" the fascisme "idea", in other word spread their hatred buy having people play as "hitler" and think "this rules, my population is in check, I can conquer the world"

Look at the web site! the first think you see is a big picture of hitler doing the nazi salute on a red background.

Although the author tried to remain neutral in his description of fascism he sure doesnt say it was an horrible part of history (unless I missed some pages but yuck I dont want to return to this web site to check).

Another thing suspect is that there is barely any downwards for selecting fascism in Civ3 (if you install the mod of this guy.)

To me it is suspect. Anyway the guy is entitled to his beliefs whatever they are but I still think it is digusting to promote this mod on this site the way it was done. I also condamn the way the moderator/immortal introduced this mod by saying "good news!" Now ban me if you want or whatever but I said what I thought and feel better.

It is disgusting to me. Now I hope that Armor and I are not the only one to think so. Seeing so little reaction from people is saddening and scarring me. :(

First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct.. And the govenment type facism is not a favoured government type... Its quite similar to fundamentalism (wich has been removed)..

I agree that the pic of Hitler can be disturbing, though, but I dont belive that the author of the mod is a fascist himself.. Just someone trying to provoke politically correct people;)

BTW I am talking about the mod for civ 2 since I dont own civ 3 yet....

The author is kind enough to post a warning about the content of the site on his main page:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm



WARNING

You are about to enter the Civilization Fascist-Mod Site (Civilization II & III). This website focuses on adding the government type of Fascism to a GAME that covers important milestones and events in the history of man. Due to political correctness, Microprose (the makers of the game) chose to ignore the impact the rise of Fascism had on the 20th century. How can one have good without evil? This site is geared towards those individuals who care less about political correctness, and more about the inclusion of all history, good or bad. This website not only offers the Fascist Patch, but also contains images, sights and sounds from the Third Reich and other related fascist regimes. This is NOT a pro-fascist site, anymore than watching a documentary is, nor does the site promote any such beliefs. There are no images of death, and no insults or slurs... but if the mere sight of a swastika or Hitler is illegal in YOUR country, offends you, or inspires you to write flaming e-mails that tell everyone else we must obide by your personal views of right and wrong (which is kind-of a fascist outlook itself isn't it?), please go elsewhere and flee now to someplace safe!


NOTE:
This page and it's linked sites and files relating to fascism are not intended to be taken as the views or thoughts of the author...

"I believe that our most important mission is to make past history known correctly, to reflect on what should be reflected, to forget the hatred, to cooperate for man's happiness and the maintenance of the earth, and to teach these matters to the children of the next generation"



And you are given a chance to not enter the page if you feel uneasy about it.

Originally posted by Cilpot
First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Maybe he also rushed to make the "popular" fascism civ2 patch just as he probably will for civ4


Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct..

What about spiritually correct? Even if it's just a game I couldnt play a fascist governement. Altough I admit wouldnt have much problem nuking a city playing Civ. But for hitler, BIG shivers

just someone trying to provoke politically correct people;)

Let's hope so

This mod is a reflection of real life. Fascists where a form of government in the 20th century. If we are suppose to take out any type of government that we don’t like, communism should not be in the game. They killed more people than the fascists. I do not approve what the Nazi/Fascists did during the war. Several of my family died during it, and the others where fighting them. But they are a part of history, and should be included in the game. If you don’t like it, DON’T INSTALL THE MOD, but I will.
Think about a WWII scenario without Nazi/Fascist. What sort of government should Germany have?
Democracy ??. The Nazi where elected to power, but that wood not give the German people the fanatic ability to fight even when the war was lost. If you look at some of the documentary which has been made, normal people still believed in 1945 that Germany was going to Win the war. The propaganda ministry was a great and powerful, but how should they make Germany still believe that they was going to Win the war, and people still believed in him even if they heard the artillery from the allies. If the people was not fanatics about there leaders, how else than with a mod that makes that possible.

I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

I was just sitting here reading through the threads, and actually registered specifically to reply to this post. Not to start out on a bad foot, I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this thread is ridiculous.

I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, pummelling down a civilization with many important cultural ideas to add to the world by slaughtering all their peoples, and even grinning when you fly a nuclear weapon of mass destruction into a rivals city, wreaking unheard of agony on its peoples for decades to come, yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?

The truth of the matter is, Civilization is a game that allows us to have and feel a mock power over the world, and therefore acts as a great outlet for these pent up emotions. IF this game was real life, I wouldn't be using ANY of the military actions available! And of course I wouldn't choose Fascism as my government, nor despotism or communism or even monarchy! The author of the patch clearly states he does not support fascism or totalitarianism in any aspect. The truth of the matter is when I'm bent on world domination in civ, I usually choose communism, because of its great ability to uphold a massive, widespread army. Does this mean I support communism in the real world? No! IT'S A GAME! ITS A GAME! IT'S A GAME! A HISTORICAL SIMULATION ON A COMPUTER! PLASTICS AND METALS FORGED TOGETHER IN A BOX AND SOLD BY MAJOR, CAPITALIST CORPORATIONS!

Come on people... sorry to get so firey, and I do not wish to offend (I don't flame, I think its useless) but please, lay off the author of this patch and the people who wish to use it. In the definition set out in this thread, we're all just as guilty of human atrocities in retrospect to game play. In despotism you kill citizens in order to hurry production! Whats worse than that?

To conclude, there exist several different ways to win at civ 3. And I know not all the nay sayers of the fascism patch always strive for the world peacemaker ending (though that is a great addition to the game, and I look forward to giving it a shot).

So shame on all of you. Please reconsider your thinking.

And Hi everybody... I look forward to getting to know all of you. :)

Further

Its hard to seperate the fact that people who play CIV may have no real concept of history.

To call Fascism "historicaly insignifigant" would be saying that WWII had no real affect on the 20th century. If you wanna look at it in this light, communism is almost as "historically insignifigant" because it really only lasted 1/2 a century, but we still have it.

For all of you who have had your tiny little minds crafted by "after school specials" and "Lifetime specials" I have some historical notes for you.

Attrocities you just didnt know about (or you werernt concerned about because it didnt happen to a US ally) and government types that go along with it.


Time Period Killed Government Responsible
250AD 300,000+ Roman Republic
3rd Punic War
Destruction of Carthage
1200-1400AD 2M+ English Monarchy
Crusades
African Slave Trade
1600AD 1M+ Theocracy, Inquisition
1775-1850 30M+ Democracy, USA
Western Imperialist
Expansion,
Native American Genocide
First documented use of
bio-warfare.
1935 25M+ German, Facism.
Jewish/Polish/Russian
Massacres
1950 10M+ USSR, Communism
Stalinization of Russia
1960-1990 5M+ Iraq, Despotism
Ethnic Cleansing of Kurdish

So pick your "innocent" government.

On the Fascist note, the Italians where fascist but committed no genocide. There are governments today (Isreal) that very closely resemble fascism ironicaly enough, but we dont call them fascisms, we call them Socialist-Democracies.

ironfang

Since my paint program doesn't support .pcx format, I can't customize any civ advance icons. :(

I was wondering if someone would care to make and post an icon of the fasces, both small and large, to replace the swastika, because that icon is representative of only German fascism, but I'm assuming other civs will use it from time to time, too.

For my two cents, Fascism is a must for civ. If you loathe it so much, make it your duty to rid other civs of it or something.

Go Ironfang!

Well, here's my .02 on this subject. Overall, I think the Fascist Patch website ought to tell you something about how it will play in the game, and how truly legitimate it may or may not be.

First of all, I need to say that I have no inherent opposition to the recongition of fascism/totalitarianism as a form of government in Civ III. Since these forms of government figured prominently in the 20th Century, for better or for worse, the creators of Civ III should recognize it.

My concern comes from the Fascist Patch website, which seems mildly to glorify fascism as a form of government, while giving only a perfunctory mention of its negative effects. When describing the effect of the patch itself, it seems to describe the benefits of fascism to a Civ III player, without too much downside. This leads me to conclude that the patch is probably unrealistically imbalanced. The Civ forms of government are all about balance. For each form of government, you get benefits, but give some up as well. The only downside to the fascist patch which is mentioned on the website is that conquered cities encounter more resisters. Are there any other downsides?

The website also mentions that fascism borrows from other forms of government, including governments which allow capitalism. You need to ask, playing this patch, whether the production level under fascism would be the same as a republic or democracy? To put the productivity of a fascist form of government on a par equal to a democratized industrial state, over the long run, would be historically untrue. It was not our own level of our fanaticism, or our belief in democratic ideals which ultimately defeated the Nazis. It was the fact that our nation, when mobilized for war, could outproduce all three Axis nations put together, even before daylight bombing. Really, World War II was over before it even started. Does the fascist patch recognize this?

The Fascist Patch website also casually mentions that it rules through organized violence, an implicit recognition that fascism employs terror tactics to keep its people in line and/or engages in brutal repression of dissent. Obviously, this must come at a price to such a society. Over time, the level of unhappiness must grow. Does the Fascist Patch recognize this?

Finally, let's not ingore the fact that fascism suppresses creativity, and implicitly, cultural development. Does the Fascist Patch allow for a reduced level of cultural influence? Over the long run, would Nazi Germany have stayed on par with our technological advances when they didn't concern military matters? And even when it comes to military developments, think about why Albert Einstein fled Germany and served America, and the implications of that.

To sum it up, if you are interested in playing a fascist patch, I would wait until a better source comes along. To me, the Civilization forms of government are all about balance, and you have to question the objectivity of a website that has a big obnoxious picture of Hitler at the top.

Again, my .02.

Better said Giorgicus, thanks.

If you want to see how fascism in this mod compares to the other government types, the solution is to download it and use the editor to compare them, not to conjecture on theory.

I just worked on the Fundamentalism mod, so I've been studying the balance between government types. And I'm concerned about the balance of Fascism for a few reasons, which I'll mention here.

First, the obvious benefits of fascism in this mod. Corruption is low in fascism here, on a level comparable to Republic. Only Democracy has a better corruption level. Thing is, Republic and Democracy *should* have good corruption levels, because they are peacetime governments. What they make in less corruption they spend because they don't get free supported military units. Fascism gets a good corruption level here *and* free supported military units, meaning a good influx of cash. This is a definite advantage.

Second, assimilation. For those that don't know, a higher assimilation rating means that those pesky foreigners in conquered cities will go away faster. Communism and Democracy both have high assimilation ratings, while the others have lower ones. Fascism, in this mod, is on par with Communism and Democracy. This is another advantage. And one I'm not sure I agree with, since a government based on national superiority should have a tough time integrating foreigners. We especially know that Nazi Germany didn't exactly welcome foreigners.

Fascism in this mod also receives the Standard Trade Bonus, a commerce bonus received only by Democracy and Republic. Meaning it not only gets extra cash from the low corruption levels and unit support, but also from increased trade! This seems to make it the government to choose if you want wads of money, which I don't agree with.

And unlike the other money-making government types (Republic and Democracy), Fascism suffers no war weariness. The people don't mind if you wage war endlessly.

Then there are two more things to mention. The immunity to "Steal Technology" Espionage actions and the 10 Resistance Rating to Communism. The fact that your technology can not be stolen in Fascism is a definite plus (and an unwarranted one, I think). Also, the resistance rating against Communism is twice as high as the previously highest resistance rating in the game.

For those reasons, I think the Fascism mod is a bit unbalanced. Here's how I would balance it:

1) Corruption Level goes up to "Problematic." This puts it on par with Monarchy; more corrupt than Democracy or Republic, but less corrupt than Despotism or Communism.

2) Assimilation Chance goes down to 2%. This reflects the difficult that a highly Nationalistic government has with foreigners. This is worse than Democracy or Communism, on par with Republic and Monarchy, and better than Despotism.

3) No Steal Technology Immunity. Fascist technology can be stolen just like any others.

4) Modified Resistance Ratings. Fascists are less resistant to Despotism or Monarchy governments, because they are similar in outlook to extreme nationalism. They are no more or less resistant to Democratic or Republican conquerers. They are more resistant to Anarchy and Communism, but at a rating of 5 (on par with other resistant governments), not at the previous level of 10.

How does this match up? In the rules of the game, Fascism becomes a sort of modern Monarchy (with everyone putting their belief in a nation, not a king). Corruption and Unit Support on equal to Monarchy, but Fascism can use more units as Military Police to enforce happiness. Also unlike Monarchy, Fascism allows the Standard Trade Bonus. This is balanced out by the fact that you must be much further along in scientific development to use Fascism.

If you want to use this modified form of Fascism I just described, download the mod below instead of the other mod. It is a slightly altered version of Steven Strayer's mod with the changes I mention here.

Originally posted by Further
I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, ..., yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?


I asked myself the same question and I think I nailed the answer. I like to immerse myself in games (whether you want it or not, we pretty much all do it although I know "it is just a game!"). So nuking some computers cities and inhabitants isnt a big deal because they are not flesh and bones. They are computer 0s and 1s, pixels and numbers. No big deal. NOW if the puter attack MY cities it's different because they ARE my inhabitants, little humans like me and I'm their king. I feel like they are real.

That is also why I wont play fascism because in Civ I am the leader, and I dont want to portray myself as Hitler. It's like a RPG, sorry but I dont see myself as Hitler. I want to play my game like I would if I were a real leader (mostly culture and science achievement). Again, in this game I know I'm fighting computers that is why I have no probs exterminating them (just like I loved to do in this old commodore 64 game called "the seven cities of gold". It was like civ. Man, did I loved entering villages, killing little people because they would die bursting, making a little "plop" sound, just like when you chew gum and bust bubbles) and they would get quickly excited surrounding you and attacking you while you were either trying to escape, or reach their leader :)

Originally posted by Armor
[B]I think it says a lot about you that you don't consider minority groups to be part of "the people." Do you think German and Italian Jews weren't generally long standing citizens of those countries? Or do you think they were "fiercely loyal" to their fascist governments?

Although fascism, as a form of government, is historically insignificant when compared with ancient forms such as monarchy or republic, I don't think anyone here is denying its role in history. As a choice of government for the game, I think it's a good idea if it's done correctly. But I think the difference between us is that we aren't celebrating fascism, and Hitler, as the web page for this mod appears to do.

I think it says a lot about you that you resort to personal attacks instead of discussing the subject in hand. Note I used the word "representative". I don't recall stating that Jews were not part of the people. I simply suggested it to represent the persecution of minority groups (something I find as abhorrent as anyone else)

Celebrating that kind of hatred is indeed wrong. I haven't actually visited the page, since I don't even own Civ III yet.

It is erroneous, however, to consider fascism as historically insignificant. The repercussions of fascist govenments will, I have no doubt, be felt for several generations to come, and changed the map of the entire world forever.

Just to add a voice, I find the facist patch objectionable, won't install it and think any reference to a website which arguably glorifies Hitler should be removed from this forum.

Even if we all consider ourselves enlightened intellectuals who can separate our gaming from our beliefs, not all who play the game will share our frame of mind. Many impressionable or hateful people may not have such a sophisticated interpretation of the mod.

If we accepted the arguments above for supporting the mod, we would also have to say that a game that permits you to torcher cartoonish demons, like Dungeon Keeper, is no different than a game that allows you to rape realistic looking women. Unfortunately, certain elements of reality are too important to be trivalized in a game.

I consider myself a staunch proponent of free speech, but this forum ought not to be a party to those who seek to reenact realistic, as opposed to cartoonish, acts of violence. No one would be comfortable with a wonder named Smallpox Blankets, Mai lai Massacre or Khmer Rouge for good reason. This game should never be a vehicle for people who wish to realistically reenact historical attrocities.

The facism patch is borderline, but given the tone of the website, it treads too far into dangerous ground and should not be deciminated by thoughtful, responsible people. I strongly urge this forum not to support it, at least until the website is toned down, which I take it for granted its author will categorically refuse to do.

Well, I understand where starfox and the rest are coming from. It could be very easy to misunderstand the site. I totally agree to a point... but it honestly did not bother me all that much. (and I would consider myself a big patriot) He does emphasize both the front page and within the site that this is for a GAME. He doesn't try to persuade you in any way that Fascism is "the best", nor does he make any real derogatory comments. (if you find some, please show me, and I will stand corrected) Just thought I'd ad my observation... but of course everyone IS entitled to thier own opinion. That's why we have the OPTION to download/view it or not. Thank you for your time. :)

Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

Originally posted by Kino
Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit. :p

Originally posted by bob92


I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit. :p

You are absolutly right! And that is showing to everybody the world isn't beautiful and the best way to counter this is it by showing what it can does. So if the people know what it can does we are able to conserve this in our mind for the futur.

In all, this patch is a good idea even if the things aren't good. More we see bad thing more we can have a weapon to countering this.

Truly,
Dâvid Saindon Couilleau De La Rocque De Rock Brune

Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did...

"Stalin and Pol Pot killed mainly their own people, and we're sort of fine with that. Hitler, though, he also killed the people next door... stupid man."

For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

Originally posted by Giorgicus
For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

Ah, so you're talking about gameplay! Now that's a discussion that belongs here. Here are the details from the fascist patch:


Civ3 Fascist Government:

Requires: Fascism

Corruption: Nuisance

Support Cost: 1

Free Units:
Town – 2
City – 4
Metro – 8

Rate Cap: 10
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation: 4%
Draft Limit: 2
Military Police: 4

Flag Conditions:
Requires Maintenance
Standard Trade Bonus

Ruler Title: Fuehrer

Diplomats are: Regular
Spies are: Regular
Immune to: Steal Technology

Propaganda Resistance
Modifier Modifier
vs
Anarchy 25 -5
Despot 20 -5
Monarch 5 5
Republic -10 5
Democ. -20 5
Comm. -25 10
Fascist 0 0

Tech Advance Cost: 100
X – 455
Y – 159
PreReq – Espionage


Nothing seems out of line to me compared to other government types, but I'm a relative newbie to the Civ series. Other opinions?

I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

i don't mind to download this mod. it is interesting to smash this nazi again and again. i also agree that we cannot wipe out the History

Originally posted by Kino
I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

So you did...sorry I missed it the first time through. By that point I was getting itchy to post a reply, so I was just skimming. :)

I agree with most of your modifications, and the rationale behind them, with a couple of exceptions:

1) I think Fascism SHOULD have higher resistance than other forms of government, since the people truly believe that the state is supreme and may be willing to go to greater extremes to protect it (e.g. Japanese kamikazes, which would be unthinkable in most other societies). They also seem to be more brutal and thorough in crushing internal dissent.

2) The Standard Trade bonus. You have decided to leave it in for Fascist societies, even though the other totalitarian societies don't get it. Just curious what your reasoning was on that.

Thanks!

I think the Fascist Patch is great.

It was a lot of fun in Civ2.

I will definitely be using it....when I get the game.

A few things to I feel worth mentioning about some of the mod assumptions\paramters the author employed.

Fascist governments are very worker-focused, often directing state-controlled work programs, but still allowing for private corporations which allows greater commerce than communsim

Yes in theory and in practice, Fascist govt's are esstianlly free-enterprise so there should not be any real penaltys regarding wealth generation.

Due to extensive secret police networks under a fascist regime, enemy espionage missions to steal techology never succeed.

Now this sentence has some problems. Overall axis intelligence, esp counter-intelligence was not particularly effective or efficent when compared to the allies. Allied nations(including the heathen Marxists :p , were far more effective overall at gathering information, recruiting spies etc than the converse. If anything Fascits type mods should penalize there own spies rather than rewarding them with an immunity that really never existed historically. Fascist spies may be effective at repression, terror and such, but that did not grant them anything special as far as intel\counter intell vs there major opponents.

On Industry
Contrary to some popluar assumptions, Fascist war machines are not particalular efficent. Factually, axis war production techniques were generally inferior and inefficent for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this thread. Even russia was far superior to (German) war production techiques and principles. Mods should refect this with a *modest* penalty in productin. (im not sure if wealth production and *Actual hardware production can be disconnected from one another in the editors-thats a subtle but imprtortant distinction
-HOWEVER-
I dont kknow if this is even possible but some sort of technological or *military unit production bonus* would be appriate IF it could be applied selectively. Maybe in mobiliation rates or bull war fatigue would achive what im thinking of here

On War weariness.
Here I agree that war weariness should not be an issue for fascits powers, however taken with what I said above, that should come with a cost attached to it. The fact is fascist regimes are quite effective when it comes to deploying and mainting large, motivated armies for long perids-Italians notwithstanding ;)

On resistance
Here im a little less certain. Does the willingness to use brutal, direct power to suppress dissent eliminate ressitance or increase it? IF history is correct, dissent is greater if anything-not less, despite a efficent and brutal effort to suppress it. This ones debateable how to implement but prob resistance should be made a thorn in the side for any fascist mod maker to consider

On Technology,-generally fascism should recieve perhaps some sort of bonus on the military side of things to reflect there comptence, or superiority in this area. Theres no real dichotomy between a semi-inefficent industy and yet possessing a high level of technical prowess. Post war Russia would be a good example of this duality, Despite the fact the Russia had some world class designers and engineers scientists etc, the hobbled inefficent economy of communism, prevented the large scale application of those peoples skills. Democratic type societies should be best in this regards. Fascism should be above communsim yet perhaps slighty behind Democracy to simulate the effects of a less open system, yet one thats not as stiffling as say, communism is known for.

Great Leaders
Why not give Fascists a slightly higher chance to get a great leaders? That would reflect the tendancy of a more war-oriented society to produce above average share of highly motivated, compotent field commanders. That might not be out of line or innacruate either. I dont think that parameter is tweakable or ever will be-just my 2cents tho

Now its my understanding that the current editor is not very complete or flexible and ive seen many ask for tools to make historically accurate mods doable that cannot be atm? Maybe its not yet possible to make fine tuned mods yet-im new to this too, but wanted to add some of my own thoughts to the discussion.

I wanna install both the Fascism and Fundamentalsim patch so I can have both governments in the game. Anybody know how to do this?

The essential thing here is that you can't both claim that the fascist mod is for history and play balance AND have a government that essentially portrays fascism as perfect.
So, the following suggestions for realism;

Required tech; y the new tech? Nationalism would do fine as a prerequisite.

Corruption; monarch level seems appropriate, cosidering how much embezzlement went on.

Conscription; considering how overboard the fascisms went w/conscription, I think that 4 would be right.

Because fascist govs were very into militarism, they should have something akin to all units starting veteran or elite in cities w/ barracks. Obviously thats a big deal, but it gets weighed out.

Lets face it -- the fascist govs severely weakened the cultures of their countries. No culture should be generated. And each unit surpressing discontent (max 4?) should lower culture by one, since the prefferred methods involve machine guns and grenades.

Also, I would say that research should be very, very weak. The fascist govs essentially chased all the scientists away, and then concentrated on moronic projects like sound guns and such. No research seems too harsh, but maybe research at 10% the normal rate is fair.

As for resistance percentages.... what has already been said doesn't suffice. No city will EVER totally submit to a gov that feels they are totally inferior. And what's this about fasicst cities resisting? Lets face it... they went belly up the second they were beat in the world war, both to the commies and the us/uk. I would say assimilation from fascist to any other should be VERY rapid.

Now, I doubt I could make most of this into a modpack.... but what do people think about balance? Essentially, this is true to the real fascist govs and provides a good government for a quick conquer the world rush. Too strong? Too weak?

Uteno I think you put in place some penalties that are not only inaccurate but overly harsh. I have been thinking on this and here is how I think a fascist government should probably be laid out in the game.

First of all Fascism basically tries to alter the makeup of a nations government and society to gear it completely towards war. To do that the society and organizations that govern that society MUST be mobilized completely behind the rulers and their goals. Persicution of minority groups within that society and redressing of supposed "wrongs" against the state are generally the prefered methods. Another popular method is to completely indoctrinate the populace and especially the children to the values and beliefs of the rulers. The end result is a completly loyal populace. A populace willing to accept almost anything for what the rulers deam to be the good of the state. A nation geared towards one thing above all else. War and it's execution to completion. The positive effect of this is that the people are very resistant to anemy propoganda, the military is usually VERY well motivated if not well trained, and the people are willing to suffer the full horrors of war far longer than most nations would. The downward effects are that culture suffers tremendously as all that does not conform is crushed and creativity and invetivness, except when under strict government guidance, almost ceases to exist. Also conquered peoples are almost never assimilated into the society at large and thus remain a constant source of problems for fascist states. Next though a free enterprise is allowed to continue it generally does suffer because it is now under strict government supervision. Finally Fascist foreign spy networks seem to have a tendancy to be easily discovered and turned to the other side.


So here is what I would do.

required technology would be nationalism.
POSTIVES
Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states.
All units start as Veteran without a barracks and as Elite with a barracks.
War weariness is almost nill but not completly removed as even a fascist will only tolerate so much.
Police state high but not higher than comunism, maybe 1 lower.
Military support about equal with monarchy.

NEGATIVES
Culture generation is REALLY low in fascism and decreases by 1 point for every unit serving a police function that city.
Maybe a small trade and income hit.
Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse.
Conquered people can NOT be assimilated and can not be happy, only content or unhappy.
More resisters.
Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states.

Thats it. I think it pretty well reflects the pros and cons of a Fascist state. I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. So if you like to conquer the world and have LOTS of income before switching this is the gov for you.

Hmmm... overly harsh, you say? I suppose you mean in cutting down science, stopping culture, and implementing those stringent assimilation rules.... well, actually, I think those are the most realistic of all the conditions.... but we are trying to reach a mix of historical and gameplay balance.

Remember, again that I'm not thingking of this government's use in terms of "I got nationalism and now I'm gonna be fascist and stay there until the game ends." I'm thinking specifically in terms of "I have my forces and economy poised, I have the important indy age techs, now I'll switch to fascism and conquer the world." I really never won Civ 2 by conquest, and haven't even tried for Civ 3... but if I wanted to, I'd love to switch to that gov't.

After all... culture? It affects your borders and relations. If you don't plan on there being other nations, not a problem. If you can't conquer the world w/ elite but low tech units... well, I you shouldn't have switched. And as for assimilation, the cities may be useless, but you just want to conquer the world.

If you plan on conquering the world, you shouldn't have to worry about whether your pop will assimilate or not.

"Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states. "

All this stuff about fascist invulnrability to communism annoys me. Propaganda, yes, I agree. But other spying should be simple... with so much discontent, the fascist govs always had thousands of resistance cells to deal w/

"Maybe a small trade and income hit. "

If you were using this just to balance, I could see it; but as a realism thing, it makes zero sense. I think my negatives work better.

"Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse. "

Have you played as a monarchy yet? I couldn't bear to put MORE corruption on them...

"Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states. "
Once again, this silly communist thing... they were ideologically enemies, but this isn't like you gain magical powers when confronting your nemesis...

"I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. "

Heh.. thats exactly the way I felt as I was mentally composing a solution. And then I thought, 'wait, what were the military innovations of the fascists?' What comes to mind are jets. And they weren't even half decent jets... they were jet prototypes.

Really, the fascist govs didn't make any science at all... they concentrated on military, true, but think about the stuff they were looking at. Really big mirrors, endothermic reactions, sound guns, gigantic cannons... impracticle and useless. All their scientists left, the remainders were stupid....

Well I have just done so much reading on this post, my eyes are blurry, and I can't even be bothered to say anything now.

But my two cents says, facism is a real and acceptable form of government, it has been responsible for virtually no atrocities in comparrison to say christianity, yet the game has chapels and cathedrals.

Not long ago a Dictatorship slaughtered 800,000 rowandans, yet nobody minds dictatorship rule.

I am personally not interested in a fascist patch, and I didn't even bother to check the web site, Hitler is a symbol of Facism so it is acceptable hitler was big and bold on the front page, just as maybe a communist patch may have had Lenon or Stalin, yet I am sure noone would have complained about that.

I say lighten up, there have been far worse leaders than Hitler in the ages, and far worse governments than facism. So include the patch and anyone who doesn't want it, they aren't forced to.:goodjob:

Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

Let's avoid the philosophical and moral argument. It's an unanswerable debate, and will only bog down a worthwhile discussion on game balance here. Afterall, this is a forum for the game, not politics.

I agree with some of the suggestions made about balancing the fascist government, but many of those proposals just aren't possible within the scope of the game editor (as it exists now). I can't give a government a bonus when producing war-related units or city improvements. The way to accomplish that is to choose a civilization with the "Militaristic" characteristic (i.e. Rome, Germany, Japan, Aztecs, Persia, or Zulu). However, using the editor you *can* change it so that any civilization is Militaristic, but there is no way to apply those characteristics to a government choice. The best you can do is to turn down War Weariness (Fascism in my version has none), allow a high military police number (Fascism in my version has 4, tied for highest), and allow for military unit support (Fascism uses the wartime government standard). Within the limits of the editor, I've tried to do my best to represent the style of government and balance it with the other governments in question. Essentially, Fascism is the best economic wartime government. Communism, however, has strengths over Fascism when it comes to espionage (but it leaks like a sieve economically).

Achiles had a question about installing both the Fascism and Fundamentalism patches. I'll try to package the two of them into one patch; but until I do that, here's another method:

1) Install the Fascist Patch as described in the ReadMe file.
2) Then open the Civ3Fund.doc file that I included with the Fundamentalism patch.
3) Then open up your Civilization directory and open Civ3mod.bic
4) In the toolbar at the top, go to "Rules" then "Edit Rules" then hit the "Governments" tab.
5) You'll now see the screen used to edit/create governments. Hit the Add button and manually add Fundamentalism.
6) Fill in the Fundamentalism government with the stats I provided in the Civ3Fund.doc file.
7) Save and enjoy. You'll now have both governments.

Originally posted by Comrade Juhon
Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

I wish some people would stop thinking in such simple terms.

When looking at humanity, its completely useless to label things as being purely good or evil. If it werent for that way of thinking, wars wouldnt be started purely over hatred for what a particular people see as evil.

But governments wont let people think this way, and advise them to tell their children that their attackers or oppressors are unequivocally and undeniably evil, just because its better for their peace of mind. Could you imagine how kids would feel if they knew that their attackers werent all bad, and that the conflict could be started over a simple misunderstanding? They'd be utterly confused! So just feed them this easy to understand propoganda. Then they'll know exactly what to feel, and they'll know exactly what to tell their children when they're confused when another attack takes place. It'll keep going on and on like that until it's hard copied into our subconcious that everyone that attacks us is evil and our only option is to eliminate them. After all, if they're undeniably evil, how can we reason with them?

The attacks on america and many other nations through the years, by terrorists, have been terrible. That can't be denied. However, they were not senseless. They had a very human motive, whether it was revenge, ambition, or just jealousy. When people realise that, and I hope they have the stomach to process that fact, they will realise that their enemy isnt someone they can just reach out and strike at, or bomb from miles and miles away. The enemy is within ourselves, within our own primal, human nature.

If we could leave such useless emotions behind, we would become divine and there would finally be some kind of peace. Personally, I dont think humanity has what it takes. Our race as it stands is a monkey with a revolver in his hands. We've overstepped our boundaries and our advanced tools/weapons will only be as useful to us as our primitive minds.

Well I went to the site to see what all the upset was about and I have to say that they were very good about warning people ahead of time. If you wound up feeling sick Starfox why didn't you just opt out of going in at the warning screen?
History is history and if we choose to ignore some aspects of it now even in gameplay future generations will have even less of a grasp on what went on than we do.

Oh no! Someone is trying to express themselves freely on the internet...we had better stop them...

I hate it when people complain about something and use their preferences as a means to censor other people. Fascism is a government just like Democracy and Communism and there's truly no reason for it to be absent from the game. If you disagree so strongly with this form of government, by all means DONT download the patch. But stop complaining about someone excercising their freedom of expression. Who cares if the person that created this patch is a Fascist or not? Disagree with him/her all you want. The internet is one of the last places where freedom exists (although not in a pure form), please don't try to apply your narrow minded censorship to it like has been applied to so many other forms of media.

On a side note, I'd really like to see someone add a Libertarian government to the game. I think that would rock. The most amazing part of this last statement Ive made is the fact that so many of you probably have no clue as to what Libertarianism is all about. This is why you comprise the "mindless masses".

It seems like whenever I think people are truly ready for freedom and true tolerance of others' ideas (no matter how "disagreeable"), something like this happens and I come to realize that people are more narrow than I thought. Open mindedness doesn't mean you tolerate only the most "politically correct" things, it means you tolerate everything. I urge you all to have an open mind about this and everything else. Another person's freedom of expression won't hurt you unless you let it.

I think almost all the posts about Fascism have missed an important point: it failed historically. It failed quickly (within 12 years) and in addiion to destroying millions of people, it subjected its most prominent supporters to ridicule for most, if not all, of history since its demise.

For better or for worse, fundamentalism has proven more effective.

First of all I like the modpack, particularly when modifed, but...

I think there's another way to handle Fascist governments, without creating a new Government.

Mobilizing a Republic gives you significantly higher military production, less culture, less non-military production. A mobilized economy happens when you take a capitalist economy and temporarily divert all production to the State's warmongering purposes. Furthermore, mobilizing makes you act in a warlike and aggressive way 'cos you have to declar war on someone.

ISTM that since Fascist/Nazi governments only existed for relatively brief periods of time, always went to war, and did a huge amount of militayr production at the expense of culture:

Germany: 1933-45 invaded Poland etc
Italy: 1922-43 tried to invade France, Yugoslavia, Abyssinia
some E. European countries in late 30s/early40s
Spain: Considerably longer but considerably less 'fascist'; didn't invade anyone.
Japan: Difficulties applying the Fascist concept here, but only extreme-nationalist in the period 1930-1945; invaded Korea, Manchuria pre-Pearl Harbour then most of Asia.

The short duration and huge military focus of these countries means that they can be modelled in Civ3 by Republics, mobilizing for war in peacetime...

What does anyone else think?

Hmm...Libertarianism. I might be able to work on a mod for that, I just need to think up how it would operate in-game.

Originally posted by Gareeth
If you wound up feeling sick Starfox why didn't you just opt out of going in at the warning screen?


Because I wasnt given the choice. The link has been changed so now it directs to the homepage, instead of directly to the core of the web site as it was when the admin posted the info.

Just wanted to say that I was simply expressing my mind when I posted my thoughts. I wasnt trying to tell you guys what to do as some seemed to believe.

PS: thanks to the people who advised me not to download or use the pack! I really hadn't thought of that! ;)

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Certainly, this was an ugly time in world history, but so was Roman persecution of Christians, and Stalins repressions, and the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch trials, etc. Maybe we should remove Rome, and Russia, and England, etc from the game?

I think the author does a pretty good job of validating his thougts on the opening page of his site. If you didn't want to be offended, as per his warning, why did you look at it?

Thanks Kino for the alternate patch... I havent had time to test it but it looks like it will be much better balanced. The original looked way out of whack.

as for my 2cents, facism has been a major type of goverment in the 1900's where most of the action in civ/civ2/civ3 takes place, the game almost slows to a crawl at that point, so although historicly facism may not have had such a impact as democracy/republic/monarcy type goverments it has has a signifigant impact on this century and i see no reason why it should be left out... the original patch does seem to be lopsided almost to the point of cheating (ie it would be silly not to be facist) and in the real world there are many many reasons why a modern goverment would not choose facism. i also think that facist goverments should loose respect internationaly and most govt types excludeing despotisms/monarchys should have some type of diplomatic penalty (more penalty for democracy, a little less for republic, less agian for comminism... (depending on personal freedom and civilian influence in goverment.) what does anyone think of that?

next362"

Okay... it's me... the guy behind the Fascist Patch.

I was quite surprised to see everyone get so worked up over a game and debate things that were clearly stated at the Fascist Patch website... somehow, somepeople just want to hate and censor everyone else to what THEY think is right and wrong. Wow, what an attitude. Well I guess we should all be happy that we have people who are willing to judge what other people should and shouldn't view or use.

Remember this... the Fascist Patch doesn't mean YOU have to play as a Fascist... maybe it's there to FIGHT Fascist AI of the computer.

Anyways, forget the debate which has nothing to do with the GAME... let's talk about the GAME, and why I did it!

Philosophy behind the Fascist Patch.

First off, is the obvious question... why Fascism? To answer your first thought... no, I'm not a Fascist, nor do I think it's "cool" or any such thing, I just can't stand political correctness, especially when it attempts to alter or ignore history, and especially when it comes at the cost of minimalizing the impact Fascism had on the 20th Century. Regardless of its succes or failure, or it's time on earth Fascism had a TREMENDOUS impact on the 20th Century whose ramifications simply can not be ignored for politicall correctness. Yet somehow it's okay to include Communism, which was responsible for nearly 30 million dead this century. I guess as long as it was mostly Russians who died, it's okay to include Communism in Civ2 and Civ3???

In a nutshell, the purpose of the Fascist Patch is to add a BALANCED VIABLE THIRD OPTION of government to the late-game of Civ2/Civ3. First and foremost it seeks balance, secondly, if possible, it seeks accuracy. Obviously a Fascist Regime can have many drawbacks, but for gameplay, keeping it balanced BETWEEN Communism and Democracy is the MAIN goal. Most of what I state concerns Civ3, but can often be applied to Civ2 as well (at least the goal of a third government for late games).

It's been stated before, nobody uses Republic late in the game. There is a reason for this... because anyone who uses Republic tends to switch to either Democracy or Communist late in the game.

Why do they switch? Why does nobody use Republic late in the game?

Because the corruption of Republic is simply awful and nobody chooses it over the lower corruption of Democracy or Communism.

If you stop and think for a minute, how I rated Fascism is simply a Republic with no war weariness and free units, but it still has the awful corruption of Republic.

Fascism is CLEARLY superior to Republic... it's supposed to be, because nobody uses Republic late in the game. Don't think of Fascism being superior to a Republic in regards to a modern 20th century republic, but rather think of Fascism being superior to something more akin to the Ancient Roman Republic (which was rife with corruption itself). After all, in game terms, nobody uses republic in the late game because it "seems" like an "ancient" government in it's usefullness, so I have no qualms about making Fascism better than a Republic.

What it is NOT clearly superior to is Democracy (which will kick a Fascist Government in the ass with research and commerce), or Communism, which has a lower and better balanced corruption rate than Fascism.

Fascism seeks a middle ground between the high science and monies of a Democracy, and the all-out-war status of a Communist regime. Fascism lies in the murky ground somewhere in-between, as Fascism has always had a strange place between free market and totalitarian power. Both in Civ2 and in Civ3, Fascism is a Jack-of-many-trades, but master of none. It is decent in science and taxes, better than Communism, but not as good as a Democracy? it is better at war than Democracy, but not as good as Communism.

As stated above there are disadvantages...

CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION

The biggest one is the corruption which is obviously bigger than either Communism or Democracy, plus because Fascism comes late in the game, it sucks even worse if you're a large empire (which most people are late in the game) since corruption is awful on the fringes of your empire... neither Communism or Democracy have to deal with this.

Bottom line, the only advantage Fascism has over Communism is the trade bonus, and NOTHING ELSE. Communism on the other hand, is much better at being a large empire and dealing with corruption. Communism?s level of corruption in Civ3 is BOTH lower AND spread out better than Fascism.

The Democracy is a tougher call, but is clearly a better choice than Fascism for some... people say the "war weariness" is great for Fascism vs Democracy... well, maybe to a warmonger it is, but if you're shooting for culture or other peaceful endeavors what good is war weariness to you? Furthermore with less corruption (far less), A Democracy can outresearch a fascist government, so clearly, for the peaceful player (or even a defensive wartime player), Democracy is a better choice than Fascism.

Nazi Germany was NEVER geared towards a major war effort... in fact, every plan the Germans had regarding war was the minimalist approach. Blitzkrieg warfare by it's very nature is designed to be short decisive wars with minimal economic impact at home. The Nazis lost partly-in-fact because the war with Communist Russia dragged on... the Communists successfully adjusted the economy, while the Nazis handled theirs poorly during the war.

Scientifically, though Nazi Germany suffered corruption and redundant programs, they still had great scientific success, something the Communists never (or at least rarely) had. Not to say that the Nazis had a better science drive than American Democracy, but it was CERTAINLY better than the Soviets!

Overall, if you look at what I did, is that I placed Fascism IN-BETWEEN Communism and Democracy in it's effectiveness for wartime and peace... a whole I think Fascism fills in nicely.

Communism under the Fascist Patch also gets a further boost of free units? double that of Fascism, so there is BALANCE here with the patch.

As for one other tidbit... a Fascist Government hurries production with slave labor, ergo killing off it's own population... something a Democracy (or even Republic) doesn't do!

Yes, Virginia, Fascism has plenty of downsides.

Originally posted by bob92


I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit. :p

Hurray Hurray !!!!!! You said it.

Because I find this whole discusion a load of BULL !!!!!!

Like somebody earlier told before ITS A FREAKING GAME !!!!!!

Originally posted by Uteno
Heh.. thats exactly the way I felt as I was mentally composing a solution. And then I thought, 'wait, what were the military innovations of the fascists?' What comes to mind are jets. And they weren't even half decent jets... they were jet prototypes.

Really, the fascist govs didn't make any science at all... they concentrated on military, true, but think about the stuff they were looking at. Really big mirrors, endothermic reactions, sound guns, gigantic cannons... impracticle and useless. All their scientists left, the remainders were stupid....

Jets? That's it? not "even half decent jets"? The Me262 aircraft was a superior aircraft design than America's 1st *AND* 2nd jet designs. Not until the F-86 did an American design compare to the Me262. Furthermore, German designers were researching much more interesting aircraft up until the end of the war. Ever heard of the Go-229? It was a flying wing concept that was in production, but never saw service. Next time an aircraft like it was put into production? Only the lowly, and half-decent B-2 Bomber. The research into Rocket-based aircraft helped form the basis for our X-1/X-15 aircraft designed to test speed limitations on airplanes.

And, all of the smart scientists were chased off. Which is exactly why one of the biggest reasons the West and the East raced to capture Germany's research sites was to import these stupid scientists back into the country for the upcoming Cold War. Werner Von Braun, the man without which, putting a person on the moon would not have been accomplished yet, let alone our advancement into un-manned rockets for launching of Nuclear warheads on ICBMs (but also for launch of satellites into orbit) was most definitely an idiot.

There's a reason why Germany was able to mobilise from the lack of a military in 1932, when Hitler took power, to a military that the entire world feared in 1939, and it wasn't because fascism is such an industry and research stifling form of government. The reason Germany was so successful throughout 1942? They had the most advanced, mechanized, and coordinated land force on the planet, and it showed. Part of this is because they built their military from scratch, leading to a more modernized military. But they still built it very quickly. A big reason for the slowdown in production later in the war was caused by the heavy use of slave labor, and the eventual break-down of this form of labor-force for extended periods of time. But production-wise, the German war machine was quite amazing: for instance, contrary to what might've been expected, the production of war-products actually increased throughout much of the Allied Strategic Bombing campaign.

Culturally, while uniformism is stressed in a fascist society, it is no less culturally suppressive than a communist regime. The tenents of Communism, in fact, would rather you believe in no religion at all.

I've got to think that such a hub-bub about a Fascism government addition is odd, especially seeing as how the Free Western World, just a decade ago, finally ended it's struggle with the Communist Bloc, yet Communism has always been included as a government type. I've got to wonder, since Despotism is already included, if the Fascist-style governments of the mid-20th century had been lumped under the Dictatorship/Despotic form, and all was assumed well. But obviously, a modern-Fascist form of government requires a more complicated implementation.

The difference between these two, when examining them for implementation in the game, is that Fascism, and in particular, Nazi Germany's implementation of Fascism, carries with it much more emotional baggage, because of the Holocaust, and Nazi Germany being the most visible implementation. Obviously the author was intending to model the in-game version of this government after Germany's implementation as opposed to Italy's or Japan's, for instance, because of the graphics he has used. But as with most WW2 wargames, the issue of the holocaust is completely ignored, not to degrade it's significance historically, Civ2's implementation also ignored it. With Civ3, the subject is a bit stickier, because of the addition of Cultural significance and National identity. Perhaps a Nationalism patch should be included, because, well, WW1 was wrought by the advent of Nationalism and a Nationalistic turn of governments (even though officially still Monarchys). The pre-WW2 outbreak of Fascism is really just a radically motivated/twisted continuation of this trend.

I've seen the website, and I don't really agree with the layout of the site, but regardless of the motivation of creating the patch, it really surprised me that the government type was not included in Civ3-standard. Perhaps it was because Sid wanted to return to the standard governments from Civ1 after failing to implement a new govt in Fundamentalism effectively... but whatever the reason, the addition is welcome to my game, not for the sole purpose of "hunting those evil Nazi's," but for a bit more historic accuracy, and more diversity. A game where you're supposed to create the civilization and build it as you like, the more options at your disposal, the better.

Anyway, I read through this thread, and wanted to add in my 2 cents on what I was reading.

I think Giorgicus said it best.

That site is disgusting.

That said, I don't have a problem with there being a fascist govt/patch. As mentioned above, there are many concepts in the game that mirror real life evils and horrors.

The game may as well have THE MOST evil historical governmental incarnation. Cuz that's what fascism is.

Evil. Just by what it represents, fascism is the bane of freedom and good.

Anyone that disagrees with that, or says 'but hitler did some good things. he built roads and stuff' is also probably quite evil, whether they realize it or not.

But I can't wait to play it......

One note: Fascism was a complete failure as a form of government. Why can be debated, but the fact is they got their @$$es gloriously whooped 60 years ago.

Gloriously whooped!!!!

And with or without Werner, we'd be on the moon by now. He played the biggest role at the time, but come on....

IMHO Fascism is not a government type, but a political idealogy. The actual government imployed in germany could be honestly portrayed by despotism, after all Hitler was a despot.

All the mechanics of the game accurately portray the history of the period, killing population points to rush build stuff etc., lack of war weariness, support for units . . . .

I don't think I will load this patch because I believe that it offers an imbalance, making a repulsive form of government more beneficial than it was. This is not furthering history, it is skewing it.

Despotism was introduced late in Hitler's rise to power. The more beneficial aspects of his party's rule were gleaned earlier under a government type that could be better described as democratic or republican.

Just my opinion.

If you don't like it, don't download it and don't look and covtemplate it. A big part of the Internet is being able to publish whatever you want and express your own views. What many of you are suggesting is censorship of the Internet and I don't like it. Well anyway keep on civing.

it represents history accurately and to those asking questions about Fascism being an ideology and not a government type, then what is democracy?

i will not get into these arguments on these boards other than to say this is a game that strives to represent the world, and history, as accurately as possible. If communism is a governement then fascism should be as well.

if you are offended by the accuracy of history, don't install this mod

...and why are you reading this anyway!

this thread is out of control!

so to add to the madness, here's my interpretation of what fascism should be in the game. (no consideration given to balance I'm afraid)

and I will stick with what can actually be altered in the rules.

prereq: nationalism
-this is basis of fascism, everybody interpreted the new idea of popular rule differently, this is the least liberal interpretation.

free units: 10 per metro,
-to reflect the increased conscription.

worker rate: 3
-democracy's rate because fascism worked people to death basically, and their heavy use of rail

assimilation chance: 4
-democracy's rate because cities are tightly controlled by police and propaganda

military police limit: 5
- 1+ communism's rate to reflect the military police's enormous effect on the minds of the populace.

draft limit: 3 or maybe 4
-fascist germany relied very heavily on conscription to battle numerically superior enemies, and at the end of the war, germany and the other countries it conscripted from were enormously drained of men, but so was russia which is why I tend towards 3, communism's rate.

hurrying production: forced labor
-as I said, fascists tended to basically enslave people

war weariness: none
-I really thought about changing this to low, its a myth that germany/italy never tired of the war. they tired of it pretty quickly, but since no one was allowed to dissent, I put it at none.

diplomats: elite
-this is to reflect germany's fantastic pre-war military buildup that was wildly illegal according to the no-military treaties germany signed after WWI.

spies: regular
-german spies were pretty good at concealing their war crimes, and propaganda in the US, and finding internal enemies, but they severely lost the code war, so I won't make them veteran.

immune to: investigate city, propaganda (i don't know if you can pick 2)
-they did keep their death camps secret, and they were highly effective with their own propaganda

standard trade bonus: on
-like it or not, fascism when not at war was extremely profitable. above threads act like germany wasn't fascist before WWII, but they were.

Ruler titles: duce, fuhrer, I forget the spanish one
-reply to above: Japan was not a fascist state.

I'd put corruption at nuisance, but I'm not sure what corruption really represents, other than a stupid hack fix for a flawed engine.


I think this is an imbalanced modification to the game, because this would be the best government. However this is due to game flaws, but I would put fascism on par with democracy and communism, at least for short periods of time. We've never really seen a fascist government go on for a long period of time.

my information comes mainly from an excellent couple of books called the rise and fall of the third reich, I highly recommend it.

as to whether fascism is inherently evil, I'd say yes, but only because I believe in freedom. I would say that monarchy/despotism/communism are all evil too. However that is me speaking as a citizen, if I could, I would be a fascist leader, because I think that would be the most fun.

I guess the stock responses to anyone who questions the motives and/or playability of this patch fall into two predictably reactionary categories: (1) don't play or read it if you don't like it, and (2) how dare you advocate censorship on the internet.

Well, the reason why we are reading this thread is because we are engaging in a free and open discussion of ideas. I hope nobody has a problem with that.

And I am also not going to simply look the other way while others pervert history. I will always speak up when it comes to discussing matters of historical accuracy, especially regarding fascism and totalitarianism. As Justice Brandeis once said, "a little sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Respectfully,
Georgicus

You're right, Paradox, that is an imbalanced fascism version. :)

>this thread is out of control!

>so to add to the madness, here's my interpretation of what
>fascism should be in the game. (no consideration given to
>balance I'm afraid)

And then will be my own opinion on your interpretation :)


>and I will stick with what can actually be altered in the rules.

>prereq: nationalism
>-this is basis of fascism, everybody interpreted the new idea of
>popular rule differently, this is the least liberal interpretation.

Agree. The most known fascisms relied heavily on the supposed superiority of their nation (and race) to justify a right to rule over others.

>free units: 10 per metro,
>-to reflect the increased conscription.

Acceptable.
Fascism is directed toward control, police and army. It's build for it. So ok.

>worker rate: 3
>-democracy's rate because fascism worked people to death
>basically, and their heavy use of rail

Here I don't agree. It's true that a lot of people under fascism worked harder due to propaganda, forced labor, and police, but there were also big resistances with sabotages, spying and the like due to rebellious people, hard pressed by the inhuman vision of the society. Moreover, the constant police control kill initiative, creativity and the like. So I would stick with the worker rate of 2.


>assimilation chance: 4
>-democracy's rate because cities are tightly controlled by police
>and propaganda

Well, time to end the joke. Assimilation in fascism ? What a joke ! Fascism is all about national glory and racial superiority. The very idea of assimilation would frighten even more the fascists than the people being assimilated ; whose people who would not be eager to be assimilated by such a government that consider them as inferiors.
Look at history : Germany did not assimilate anyone but the Sudetes. Even the Dutch and Alsacians, who were considered as Germans by Hitler and had a common culture with Germany resisted assimilation.
Japan invaded China and Korea, and slaughtered civilian, never even wanting to hear about considering PEOPLE as part of their empire.

Assimilation chance : 0 or 1. But I think 0 is more representative.

>military police limit: 5
>- 1+ communism's rate to reflect the military police's enormous
>effect on the minds of the populace.

The police in fascism was frightening. Everyone feared the dreaded Gestapo. So it would be acceptable to have a 5 police limit.
Though, more people resisted to the tyranny. So I would say, stay with the same police limit as communism.

>draft limit: 3 or maybe 4
>-fascist germany relied very heavily on conscription to battle
>numerically superior enemies, and at the end of the war,
>germany and the other countries it conscripted from were
>enormously drained of men, but so was russia which is why I
>tend towards 3, communism's rate.

The armies of Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 recruited almost anyone they could, especially in the battle in Berlin, where women, teenagers and 60 years men fought.
So it's very logical. Agree.

>hurrying production: forced labor
>-as I said, fascists tended to basically enslave people

Agree too. Germany killed thousands Russians with forced labor. Most of the death camp were aimed to "kill through labor".
Hurrying production by forced labor is nearly a sine qua non for fascism.

>war weariness: none
>-I really thought about changing this to low, its a myth that
>germany/italy never tired of the war. they tired of it pretty
>quickly, but since no one was allowed to dissent, I put it at
>none.

If a government is able to be constantly in war, it's the fascism. Nearly designed for. Putting war weariness is definitely a no-no.

>diplomats: elite
>-this is to reflect germany's fantastic pre-war military buildup
>that was wildly illegal according to the no-military treaties
>germany signed after WWI.

Disagree. Germany could do this because the Europe was living with the dread memory of the WW1, and public opinions wanted the peace whatever the cost. In fact, diplomats in fascism are nothing big enough to talk about. A fascism is toward either ignoring the rest of the world and concentrate onto internal stability (Argentina, Spain under Franco, Greece under "the colonels") and thus, does not have much use of diplomatic ways, either is agressive towards the foreigners and don't use a lot diplomacy (Argentina about the UK isles i.e. , Japan, Italy). So the diplomat should be weaker if any change should be made.
Diplomat : either normal or, if possible, weakened.

>spies: regular
>-german spies were pretty good at concealing their war crimes,
>and propaganda in the US, and finding internal enemies, but
>they severely lost the code war, so I won't make them veteran.

Germans did not discovered anything about the radars during the Battle of England, they did not succeed in jamming the US atomic research, while at the same time a number of covert missions of Allied were successfully driven in Germany. Italy has never anything close to a performant secret service during the WW2. Japanese handled it better, but they could not find the secret codes of USA, while USA could at least partially decode theirs.
All in all, never any fascim has impressive spies.

So Spies : normal, and if possible weakened.

>immune to: investigate city, propaganda (i don't know if you can
>pick 2)
>-they did keep their death camps secret, and they were highly
>effective with their own propaganda

Immune to propaganda is acceptable. The politic police would not allow anyone to make any propaganda except the official one. Thus, investigate city don't seem to me very realistic.
So I would say that fascism should be resistant/immune to propaganda, but that's all.

>standard trade bonus: on
>-like it or not, fascism when not at war was extremely profitable.
>above threads act like germany wasn't fascist before WWII, but >they were.

Fascism is, like it was previously said, in acquaintance with free market. Thus it should gain the trade bonus.
BUT, many of the ressources of a fascism government is headed toward police and the army to sustain the high control it requires.
So I would say that one nullify the other, and that the benefit from trade bonus is showed in the extra unit support, and the ability to do more police and more draft.

>Ruler titles: duce, fuhrer, I forget the spanish one
>-reply to above: Japan was not a fascist state.

Furher. The spanish one was "caudillo" (the capitan of the chief, if I'm correct).
The Japan WAS a fascist state. It perhaps had the Emperor, but only at a symbolic figure (except at the very end of the war when the Emperor forced its military staff to make peace), and the power was in the hands of generals. The government was praising the racial superiority of Japaneses, was aiming a huge conquest war to realize the dream of the Dai Nippon (great Japan, from Korea to Australia) and showed all the features of fascism. Japan in WW2 was, in fact, fascist.

>I'd put corruption at nuisance, but I'm not sure what corruption
>really represents, other than a stupid hack fix for a flawed
>engine.

Corruption represent the quantity of goods, money and work that is wasted/embezzled (right word ?). The reasons can be that the local men in charge keep a part for themselves, or that the city is a remote, backward one, or that there is a tradition to bribe the official (particularly for despotic government, as in ancient China), etc...
Fascism has a part of 'cult of the leader'. The power is absolute in the hand of the dirigeant, and subsequently (spelling ?) the power of someone in fascism is nearly all the time absolute toward his inferiors. Just see as how Goering, Goebbels and the like could kill thousand people just if they wanted, with a single phone call.
So what happen is that a large part of the wealth is easily theft by city governors and the like, so the corruption should be fairly high (remember how Goering could pillage all the art from occupied territory, just to be able to show them in his house).
Corruption : AT LEAST the level of republic.

>I think this is an imbalanced modification to the game, because
>this would be the best government. However this is due to
>game flaws, but I would put fascism on par with democracy and
>communism, at least for short periods of time. We've never
>really seen a fascist government go on for a long period of time.

Franco hold Spain for more than 30 years. Greece was ruled by Colonels for nearly as long. Argentina and Brazil suffered the same fate. The fact is, fascism is good for war, but the rest of the country is stagnant, because of the lack of freedom and because most of the nation's energy is directed toward repression.

>my information comes mainly from an excellent couple of books
>called the rise and fall of the third reich, I highly recommend it.

>as to whether fascism is inherently evil, I'd say yes, but only
>because I believe in freedom. I would say that
>monarchy/despotism/communism are all evil too. However that
>is me speaking as a citizen, if I could, I would be a fascist
>leader, because I think that would be the most fun.

Well, that is not part of the game, if we start about it, we will end in a philosophical reasoning about Good and Bad, and it's "only" a Civ3 forum here :)

If you dont like the patch dont download it. Plain and Simple.

i look forward to playing with this mod.

it is just a game, afterall.

I agree that fascism has as much a place in the game as communism, republic and democracy.....shoot, it's not like the usa is innocent of committing crimes against humanity. it was only 35 years ago we had politicians fighting against civil rights. some of them are even still in congress! strom thurmond switched from the democrats to republicans because he didn't want to be associated with the n****r lovers!!! not sure what's more amazing, he's still alive AND still in the senate. those carolinians...
:rolleyes:

I am very anti-censorship.....my son's school board is actually trying to ban a couple books....harry potter has even been mentioned!!!!! dumasses....anyway, i do not advocate any censorship. say what you want. which is what I'm abou to do.....

there are, apparently (but, unfortunately, not surprisingly) some loosely veiled nazi sypathizers posting here.

WTF is wrong with you people?

if you sympathize, excuse, empathize, etc.... you are a pig. a swine. an ignorant, lower form of life. i wish i could extract from my head words to describe the utter disgust i have for anyone that does.

historically, are there any redeming qualities about fascism? (rhetorical question, not to be used as an opportunity to tell me about the great roads hitler built!)

Alright, if your problem with this or ANY fascist patch is simply the use of the swastika, or you'd just rather have a change, I drew up a new .pcx graphic to use instead.

Just replace the old one with the new. ( I posted waaaayyyy back about someone doing this.)

For the record, though, I still use the original.:p

Danny,

You mind if I use your Fasces as an OPTION in the Fascist Patch?

I'll still have the Swastika included of course, but for those people with incredibly thin skins, I can include the Fasces as an option.

After all, the Fascist Patch is all about giving people choices, not denying them options.

Sure, Wolf, no prob.[pimp]

Since there is a possibility that negotiations between to civilisations that is related. As I can remember it’s easier to negotiate deals with civ that is near you. As the Americans it was easier to get a deal with Aztecs than the Egyptians. I have not seen this before, but if this was possible then the opportunity to get one civ city to assimilate. Remember that in Netherlands during WWII many of the citizens were a member of a Nazi organisation. But this should only be possible with a civ that is near culturally. The Ukraine’s where seeing the Nazi as liberators but since they were not culturally equal, they where looked upon as slaves. This was not the case with the Western European occupied people. So if this was tweaked in it wood be a good addition.

can some one post the original Espionage pic. I accidently deleated the fascist patch when I installed the fundamentalism patch but I still have that swasticka(I don't think i spelled that right) pic in the game for the Espionage tech.

Achiles,

If you have the Civ3 CD, you have all the original images!

So I didn't really like my first go at the fasces icon.

So I started from scratch and greatly improved it.

So use it instead of the old dumb one. Promise it's good.

Originally posted by VoodooAce
I think Giorgicus said it best.

That site is disgusting.

Evil. Just by what it represents, fascism is the bane of freedom and good.

Anyone that disagrees with that, or says 'but hitler did some good things. he built roads and stuff' is also probably quite evil, whether they realize it or not.

But I can't wait to play it......

One note: Fascism was a complete failure as a form of government. Why can be debated, but the fact is they got their @$$es gloriously whooped 60 years ago.

Gloriously whooped!!!!


Get a hold on yourself, man!
It's only a game, put that shotgun down!:lol:

Millions of people killed...Glorious. Yeah right....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Viridovix
I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

Oh, please.

Fascism is just so insignificant that because of it there are a couple of forward deployed Nimitz-class carriers over in the middle east oceans, enough bomb fragments scattered across the Afghani countryside to supply the residents with a new form of currency, and some several thousand American civilians dead.

Fascism is so insignificant that the whole geography of Europe has been displaced and rearranged so many times, there are still burned-out tanks ornamenting the countryside. It's so unimportant that hundreds upon thousands - perhaps millions? - of Semite people still bristle at words "Nazi," "Hitler," or even "Germany" depending upon how well-indoctrinated they are to holocaust history and history-revisionism. In fact, we could just forget about fascism, except that any time that WWII or any of its implications are discussed - and this is pretty much the entire Industrial Revolution, the science that makes it possible for you to whine about that patch, and the economic power that catapulted America to the pivotal position we've enjoyed in the world's theatre for the past 80 years or so - we are reminded of it. At least until self-indulgent revisionists start obfuscating it because it was evil, offensive, sickening and real. Just the way that the slaughter of the entire culture of the American natives is obscured by the stylized mantle of progress.

It is absurd to say that fascism is insignificant, and it is just this sort of ignorant, myopic, touchy-feely utopian fearfulness that makes a hypocrite of anyone who privately aspires for world domination in a game, only to sneer at the reality of his own history because it does not suit him to accept it.

Looking history in the eye for what it is does not equate to the endorsement of the inevitability of atrocities that have occurred in the name of progress, conquest and sheer madness. It only means that we possess the wherewithal to see ourselves for what we are.

In order to make people like this happy, we'd need a patch for a government style called the People's Republic of Berkeley where the only piece of land that can possibly mean anything to anyone is the front steps of the government building where you picket whenever anyone says anything in regards to anything. I'm sure that this would be an accurate reflection of history. Maybe we could replace the little wheat-stalk resources with granola, while we're at it. Every style of government has committed atrocities, and democracy is only better because it is so inefficient that no one can make insane unilateral decisions that result in the eradication its own citizenry. So, if you find evil governments too awful to play, why not just make a custom map that has a little island in the middle of the map like Tristan de Cuna where everyone eats nuts and berries and lives in mud huts.

Christ on a crutch, people.

Regards,

H. Chase

In general i agree with your analysis as the upgrades are just a bit too much for fascists-mod in the game, anyhow i have some comments left you may find interesting.

Originally posted by Kino

For those reasons, I think the Fascism mod is a bit unbalanced. Here's how I would balance it:

1) Corruption Level goes up to "Problematic." This puts it on par with Monarchy; more corrupt than Democracy or Republic, but less corrupt than Despotism or Communism.

2) Assimilation Chance goes down to 2%. This reflects the difficult that a highly Nationalistic government has with foreigners. This is worse than Democracy or Communism, on par with Republic and Monarchy, and better than Despotism.

3) No Steal Technology Immunity. Fascist technology can be stolen just like any others.

4) Modified Resistance Ratings. Fascists are less resistant to Despotism or Monarchy governments, because they are similar in outlook to extreme nationalism. They are no more or less resistant to Democratic or Republican conquerers. They are more resistant to Anarchy and Communism, but at a rating of 5 (on par with other resistant governments), not at the previous level of 10.

How does this match up? In the rules of the game, Fascism becomes a sort of modern Monarchy (with everyone putting their belief in a nation, not a king). Corruption and Unit Support on equal to Monarchy, but Fascism can use more units as Military Police to enforce happiness. Also unlike Monarchy, Fascism allows the Standard Trade Bonus. This is balanced out by the fact that you must be much further along in scientific development to use Fascism.

If you want to use this modified form of Fascism I just described, download the mod below instead of the other mod. It is a slightly altered version of Steven Strayer's mod with the changes I mention here. [/B]

#1
Corruption didn't plague fascist-germany as their people did support the system at a very high percentage. Only after loosing battle of 'Stalingrad' the mood partially changed. Possibly to gain a certain *golden age* or two quite after changing goverment would adopt this into the gameplay.

#2
Agreed mostly, as the fascists fought mostly for gaining 'Lebensraum'...areas to settle their very own people and not to overtake enemy cities. I don't know if it is possible to half a conquered cities population for fascists to take concern on fleeing the threat of fascism warmachine.

#3
Agreed, even if the political resistance nearly ended, there has been enough spying and other things in fascist states during ww2 that worked quite properly.

#4
However i would like to keep Fundamentalism as a natural upgrade to Fascism, whose intentions generally allow such a theory. Monarchy as an downgrade alternate, including less resistance to both Monarchy and Fundamentalism. Communism as totally comparing system with the highest resistence level, next lower levels for Democracy, Anarchy, Republican, Despotism.


-#
As for the trade bonus, well i'm not really intimate how it could be fixed, but fascists had mostly traded only with minor states or also fascist or monarchy/fundamentalist like nations. Probably there is a chance to sort trade the way as mentioned above in #4.

Well, hope my 5 cents (european of course ;) ) could be usefull for another upgrade as i really do not agree with 'political correctness' changing a game's look, whose aim is to cover and allow to re-play lifetimes in history.

R*

The Fascist Patch has been rereleased to version 1.3 with the change that Bismarck is removed, and Hitler has been added as the new head of state.

This doesn't mean YOU will be Hitler unless you want to be, now you can face against Hitler in the Fascist Patch and crush them if you so desire!

I was very disturbed by comments I read in this thread suggesting that this be removed. Now as you can probably see by my nick, I am in no way pro-fascist myself, in fact I am very anti-fascist. However, who cares if this is trying to support the concept of fascism, who cares if it is racist or whatnot? It's got some warnings, it would be undemocratic to say that alternative views aren't welcome. If this is how this guy sees fascism working, then fine, any that agree can download the MOD. If you disagree, make your own or wait for another. I personally will make my own version, as soon as I figure out how. Along with my own version of socialism and communism. Which, I should mention many of you will see as wrong.

On my own veiws on fascism, it should be seen running much like the communism that's already in Civ 3. After all, it's modeled after Red China and the USSR, who were never really socialist or communist, but if you ask me, they were a form of fascism.

But point is, don't get all uptight by this guy offering his mod as he did. He was just making an offer. You don't have to download it. And you can still get other fascist mods that aren't pro fascism.

Something that Ironfang missed in his concise round-up of the massacres in history was the modernization of Russia. He referred to Stalinization in the 1950s when I think he meant what happened beginning with the first Five Year Plan in 1928.

Stalin deliberately starved millions in the Ukraine, exercised genocide against a class of people, peasants (supposedly kulaks) and the Great Purges of 1936 saw even city populations decimated.

People are wrong to think that Fascism killed the greatest number of people. Without including the casualties of WWII (Red Alert gives some insight as to the role of communism without fascism) Stalin killed far more than Hitler.

Around 7million Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals were killed by the Nazis yet Stalin starved far more (approx. 20mill I think).

Communism is the most disgusting form of government, and including Fascism is a far lesser evil than glorifying the military capabilities of Communism.

and yes, it is a game

I just D/L'ed the mod. The website looks nice but I wish there were a few more pictures of Musolini or Hirahito (Japan could've been considered a fundy or a fascist...) Because hitler wasn't the only fascist...

All this philosophical debate and fiery tirades over a video game, I love it. And I'll tell you why I love it, because the truth is the historical truth not the politically truth which is fed to young who dont know better. I hope they havent been brainwashed and if they dont believe us (the historically correct) just look it up! That's right open a book. Dont be afraid that you might be wrong, no one goes through life without making a mistake. Heres one big lie, George Bush (by the way I like George Bush) said that the afghans hate our freedom, our way of life. Thats 100% bullshi!t. The afghans and most of the middle east hate OUR MILITARY HELP AND SUPPORT OF ISREAL!! Afhans could give less of a crap how we live our lives they just get pissed when the Isrealites are using america weapons or we bomb a country like iraq or other middle eastern countries and then demand "peace in the middle east". We can supply weapons without using them and our hands are clean?

On another note, when I went into the website I loved it, and I sang along with the music. Does that make me a facist? And if I am racist? Does that mean I should die or that my opinion doesnt matter? For all the freedom of America i think that Mel Gisbon said it best in the patriot, "why should I trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants a mile away"? When most of america hated native americans, there was the trail of tears, when slavery existed the people who fought for slave's freedom in the North hated blacks as well. Abraham Lincoln (included in the game) was extremely racist, and had a dream for a "lily white america", maybe I should play the americans eh? Old Abe was killed before he could start the "back to africa movement" he had been planning. But PCedness says he was a father figure and the best leader ever. Basically the majority no matter how wrong is always right in a democracy, ask any native american. Now the tide has turned in pc crap and white guilt trips. I am proud to be white and of german hertiage and odds are at least half of the white people in this country have some german in them. I didnt have any part in slavery or Nazis germany so dont put it on me. If you think Im a facist I dont care. There are plenty of all black groups who look out for only BLACKS and negro college funds, the back panthers (think black nazis) and the Naacp but omg if it was all white-facists facists facists(how about majority college fund). So if you all hate facism think of this...wouldnt it be great if YOU were one type of person the government loved and treasured, not betrayed by the politicians for affirmative action, not trying to make everyone equal (your SKILL not color determines your worth-not everyone is as skilled as others). In America today things have to be black and white not grey. Hitler DID do some good things, he ended unemployment in 3 years and there was even a labor shortage. Mind you, germany had the HIGHEST unemployment rate in the WORLD (during a world depression). Hitler was able to cut through the bs and get stuff done. Genoside? America only cares when its the type of people getting killed, in South africa white people are being killed but nooo their white and "former repressers" (all of them-including the kids) and its not pc to stick up for white people. ALso in South africa blacks are killing differents tribes of black people, in the hundreds of thousands. Is africa important to us as compared to say Europe? no not really. Pol pot killed millions of asians under his rule but hey we dont care. Am I glorifying Hitler? No Hitler caused millions of my fellow germans, people I consider relatives, to die, and for that I will never forget nor forgive. I want the truth, can you handle the truth? Read my post and try not to become all irrational and emotional, if you think im wrong use logic not morality or "because" answers. I also dont want your feelings. Prove me wrong with facts not "your a mean bad person". I see the truth and its about time you did too.

*whew*

Talk about thin skins...

Some of the sick Nazi sympathizers really get bitter when you tell them what an evil guy Adolf was, how poorly their government of choice worked (history don't lie, my brothers), and how sick you believe somebody has to be to be a Nazi sympathizer.

Deal with it.

I'm not arguing against the patch. It's a game and fascism belongs right there with Communism and despotism in the game.

My prob is with those in this forum that are obviously pro-Nazi. Wake up and smell the cyanide, baby! All the talk about fascism not being a failure as a government are mistaken. Otherwise, don't you think there might still be at least one fascist nation left?


BTW, I'm white, of German ancestory, and very much an avid, if amateur, history buff. I definitely know my WWII. At least I know enough to know that these guys were evil incarnate.

And who cares who killed the most, or who was more evil? Hitler killed more than Osama. They all suck, baby! Just because I compare Osama Bin Laden to, say, Fidel Castro doesn't make Fidel a good guy. He's just not as bad a guy as Osama. Right?

Compare Charles Manson to OJ Simpson, and OJ looks pretty good. But OJ isn't a good guy.

Comparing Hitler to Stalin does not make Hitler a good guy. They definitely belong in the same group! Bad human beings that deserved far worse deaths than they got.

BTW, I'm actually so white and blonde that, while living in Portland, Oregon about 6 years ago, I was recruited by a guy that I thought was my friend (we worked together in a bar) to join a neo-nazi group.

Dude and his fat girlfriend were very sick. Tapes of Randy Weaver speaking to all his sick, ignorant little soldiers. Posters. Ruby Ridge and Waco. Sick stuff, man.

He got about 30 seconds into his pitch when I let him know how wrong he had judged me!!!! :mad:

BTW, Waco? Didn't they open up on the feds first. I mean before they set their own compound on fire?!?! :crazyeyes 'Nuf said!

Chuckster:

Boy, it takes some patience and a bit of willpower to get through your mildly white supremacist blather, but having done so, I note that you say nothing about the merits of the Fascist Patch.

Most people here have not advocated suppression of speech; we are debating the pros & cons of the Fascist Patch, and questioning the motives of its creator.

I am sure there are plenty of skinhead/randy weaver/militia websites where your views are better expressed. I suggest we stick to Civ here.

I am surprised and appalled by some of the lack of information on this page about the German Nazi government. I don't pretend to know it all but some things need to be cleared up.

Hitler's so called economic progression was very real but only occured due to the fact of his military buildup. Every job he made was taken from another, mostly jewish business men. He grabed these factories through the Nuremburg Laws created for Jewish/Duestch segregation. So he was no genius and did no good, he simply created good in the wake of what he planned to commit, which was atrocious. Further more he accomplished this great production by under paying even his german workers, just creating a lot of low paying jobs.

By 1938 he had made significant progress in the rebuilding of the German homeland. Signs of the First World War, which were still present in the mid 1930's, were no where to be seen. Now to the surprise of many not all of germany was Nazi, infact the Nazi government was only actually a party. Infact it is estimated by 1939 only 70% of the population in german homeland