Good news! Steven Strayer, the creator of the popular Fascist Patch for Civ2, has released a Fascists patch for Civ3 a few days ago. The patch can be downloaded at the Fascist Modpack homepage:


2.2 Update now available
Okay, as of 20 April 2002, release 2.2 of the Fascist Patch is out with full support of the official 1.21f version of Civ3.


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

Sorry, but I dont feel good about this patch. I visited the website and dont like what I saw (especially the big picture of Hitler).

I know it's a patch for a game but honestly, I will never dowload it and install it. It really makes me uneasy. To me this patch seems to glorify fascism through the game "improvements" it will allows gamers.

I'm not too sure about the message of this patch nor the intentions of its author but I honestly dont think it is a good idea.

I believe this patch should be removed from this great site. It gives a horrible image and aura.

*feeling sick* :vomit:

I was interested in the patch -- I vaguely remember the fascist patch for Civ2 -- but opening the web page really disturbed me. It gives you the feeling the mod was designed by a white supremacy group, to spread their message. That may not be the case, but I for one have been put off already.

I don't mind fascism as a government for the game, nor in it bringing military benefits, but as the previous poster mentioned, this site seemed to celebrate it beyond the scope of a game mod. Also, I would imagine that fascism would come at some greater cost than are created by the mod, such as a lot of unhappy people, and probably--if it were possible--population decreases in all cities. Something to reflect the horrors of this form of government.

Armor
:sad: :sad: :sad: :rocket:

Actually, Fascist governments were typified by fierce loyalty by the people, and not unhappiness at all. This was a result of careful manipulation and persecution of minority groups. It would be more representative if this form of government eliminated foreign populations in all cities for example, and changed a portion of them into barbarians (partisans).

You can't ignore the historical significannce of Fascism, no matter how distasteful it was. Nuclear weapons are considered an abomination by many, but they are in the game.

I think it says a lot about you that you don't consider minority groups to be part of "the people." Do you think German and Italian Jews weren't generally long standing citizens of those countries? Or do you think they were "fiercely loyal" to their fascist governments?

Using words like typified does not make you an expert on this subject -- the successes and failures fascist regimes are the subject of ongoing academic debate, and are not made clear by the vulgar reductionism you employ. "The people" are not a monolithic entity that feels one way or the other, neither within nor between ethnic groups let alone the many other social cleavages that divide even the simplest human populations. Fascist regimes often employed secret police forces and systems of paid neighborhood-level informants (and rewards for citizens who turned in 'traitors') to keep their populations in line; wheras many (though certainly not all) party members may have been loyal, "the people" often kept their opinions to themselves for fear of 'disappearing' if they didn't.

Although fascism, as a form of government, is historically insignificant when compared with ancient forms such as monarchy or republic, I don't think anyone here is denying its role in history. As a choice of government for the game, I think it's a good idea if it's done correctly. But I think the difference between us is that we aren't celebrating fascism, and Hitler, as the web page for this mod appears to do.

Armor

I agree with armor.

I suspect the author of the mod to be a fascist himself. First who would quickly create a fascist mod? Ok, it could be an innocent gamer, or historic buff, but not likely. To me, it is an hitler wannabee who would want to gleefuly relive this part of history playing civ as hitler. Another purpose would be to "democratize" the fascisme "idea", in other word spread their hatred buy having people play as "hitler" and think "this rules, my population is in check, I can conquer the world"

Look at the web site! the first think you see is a big picture of hitler doing the nazi salute on a red background.

Although the author tried to remain neutral in his description of fascism he sure doesnt say it was an horrible part of history (unless I missed some pages but yuck I dont want to return to this web site to check).

Another thing suspect is that there is barely any downwards for selecting fascism in Civ3 (if you install the mod of this guy.)

To me it is suspect. Anyway the guy is entitled to his beliefs whatever they are but I still think it is digusting to promote this mod on this site the way it was done. I also condamn the way the moderator/immortal introduced this mod by saying "good news!" Now ban me if you want or whatever but I said what I thought and feel better.

It is disgusting to me. Now I hope that Armor and I are not the only one to think so. Seeing so little reaction from people is saddening and scarring me. :(

First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct.. And the govenment type facism is not a favoured government type... Its quite similar to fundamentalism (wich has been removed)..

I agree that the pic of Hitler can be disturbing, though, but I dont belive that the author of the mod is a fascist himself.. Just someone trying to provoke politically correct people;)

BTW I am talking about the mod for civ 2 since I dont own civ 3 yet....

The author is kind enough to post a warning about the content of the site on his main page:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm



WARNING

You are about to enter the Civilization Fascist-Mod Site (Civilization II & III). This website focuses on adding the government type of Fascism to a GAME that covers important milestones and events in the history of man. Due to political correctness, Microprose (the makers of the game) chose to ignore the impact the rise of Fascism had on the 20th century. How can one have good without evil? This site is geared towards those individuals who care less about political correctness, and more about the inclusion of all history, good or bad. This website not only offers the Fascist Patch, but also contains images, sights and sounds from the Third Reich and other related fascist regimes. This is NOT a pro-fascist site, anymore than watching a documentary is, nor does the site promote any such beliefs. There are no images of death, and no insults or slurs... but if the mere sight of a swastika or Hitler is illegal in YOUR country, offends you, or inspires you to write flaming e-mails that tell everyone else we must obide by your personal views of right and wrong (which is kind-of a fascist outlook itself isn't it?), please go elsewhere and flee now to someplace safe!


NOTE:
This page and it's linked sites and files relating to fascism are not intended to be taken as the views or thoughts of the author...

"I believe that our most important mission is to make past history known correctly, to reflect on what should be reflected, to forget the hatred, to cooperate for man's happiness and the maintenance of the earth, and to teach these matters to the children of the next generation"



And you are given a chance to not enter the page if you feel uneasy about it.

Originally posted by Cilpot
First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Maybe he also rushed to make the "popular" fascism civ2 patch just as he probably will for civ4


Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct..

What about spiritually correct? Even if it's just a game I couldnt play a fascist governement. Altough I admit wouldnt have much problem nuking a city playing Civ. But for hitler, BIG shivers

just someone trying to provoke politically correct people;)

Let's hope so

This mod is a reflection of real life. Fascists where a form of government in the 20th century. If we are suppose to take out any type of government that we don’t like, communism should not be in the game. They killed more people than the fascists. I do not approve what the Nazi/Fascists did during the war. Several of my family died during it, and the others where fighting them. But they are a part of history, and should be included in the game. If you don’t like it, DON’T INSTALL THE MOD, but I will.
Think about a WWII scenario without Nazi/Fascist. What sort of government should Germany have?
Democracy ??. The Nazi where elected to power, but that wood not give the German people the fanatic ability to fight even when the war was lost. If you look at some of the documentary which has been made, normal people still believed in 1945 that Germany was going to Win the war. The propaganda ministry was a great and powerful, but how should they make Germany still believe that they was going to Win the war, and people still believed in him even if they heard the artillery from the allies. If the people was not fanatics about there leaders, how else than with a mod that makes that possible.

I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

I was just sitting here reading through the threads, and actually registered specifically to reply to this post. Not to start out on a bad foot, I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this thread is ridiculous.

I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, pummelling down a civilization with many important cultural ideas to add to the world by slaughtering all their peoples, and even grinning when you fly a nuclear weapon of mass destruction into a rivals city, wreaking unheard of agony on its peoples for decades to come, yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?

The truth of the matter is, Civilization is a game that allows us to have and feel a mock power over the world, and therefore acts as a great outlet for these pent up emotions. IF this game was real life, I wouldn't be using ANY of the military actions available! And of course I wouldn't choose Fascism as my government, nor despotism or communism or even monarchy! The author of the patch clearly states he does not support fascism or totalitarianism in any aspect. The truth of the matter is when I'm bent on world domination in civ, I usually choose communism, because of its great ability to uphold a massive, widespread army. Does this mean I support communism in the real world? No! IT'S A GAME! ITS A GAME! IT'S A GAME! A HISTORICAL SIMULATION ON A COMPUTER! PLASTICS AND METALS FORGED TOGETHER IN A BOX AND SOLD BY MAJOR, CAPITALIST CORPORATIONS!

Come on people... sorry to get so firey, and I do not wish to offend (I don't flame, I think its useless) but please, lay off the author of this patch and the people who wish to use it. In the definition set out in this thread, we're all just as guilty of human atrocities in retrospect to game play. In despotism you kill citizens in order to hurry production! Whats worse than that?

To conclude, there exist several different ways to win at civ 3. And I know not all the nay sayers of the fascism patch always strive for the world peacemaker ending (though that is a great addition to the game, and I look forward to giving it a shot).

So shame on all of you. Please reconsider your thinking.

And Hi everybody... I look forward to getting to know all of you. :)

Further

Its hard to seperate the fact that people who play CIV may have no real concept of history.

To call Fascism "historicaly insignifigant" would be saying that WWII had no real affect on the 20th century. If you wanna look at it in this light, communism is almost as "historically insignifigant" because it really only lasted 1/2 a century, but we still have it.

For all of you who have had your tiny little minds crafted by "after school specials" and "Lifetime specials" I have some historical notes for you.

Attrocities you just didnt know about (or you werernt concerned about because it didnt happen to a US ally) and government types that go along with it.


Time Period Killed Government Responsible
250AD 300,000+ Roman Republic
3rd Punic War
Destruction of Carthage
1200-1400AD 2M+ English Monarchy
Crusades
African Slave Trade
1600AD 1M+ Theocracy, Inquisition
1775-1850 30M+ Democracy, USA
Western Imperialist
Expansion,
Native American Genocide
First documented use of
bio-warfare.
1935 25M+ German, Facism.
Jewish/Polish/Russian
Massacres
1950 10M+ USSR, Communism
Stalinization of Russia
1960-1990 5M+ Iraq, Despotism
Ethnic Cleansing of Kurdish

So pick your "innocent" government.

On the Fascist note, the Italians where fascist but committed no genocide. There are governments today (Isreal) that very closely resemble fascism ironicaly enough, but we dont call them fascisms, we call them Socialist-Democracies.

ironfang

Since my paint program doesn't support .pcx format, I can't customize any civ advance icons. :(

I was wondering if someone would care to make and post an icon of the fasces, both small and large, to replace the swastika, because that icon is representative of only German fascism, but I'm assuming other civs will use it from time to time, too.

For my two cents, Fascism is a must for civ. If you loathe it so much, make it your duty to rid other civs of it or something.

Go Ironfang!

Well, here's my .02 on this subject. Overall, I think the Fascist Patch website ought to tell you something about how it will play in the game, and how truly legitimate it may or may not be.

First of all, I need to say that I have no inherent opposition to the recongition of fascism/totalitarianism as a form of government in Civ III. Since these forms of government figured prominently in the 20th Century, for better or for worse, the creators of Civ III should recognize it.

My concern comes from the Fascist Patch website, which seems mildly to glorify fascism as a form of government, while giving only a perfunctory mention of its negative effects. When describing the effect of the patch itself, it seems to describe the benefits of fascism to a Civ III player, without too much downside. This leads me to conclude that the patch is probably unrealistically imbalanced. The Civ forms of government are all about balance. For each form of government, you get benefits, but give some up as well. The only downside to the fascist patch which is mentioned on the website is that conquered cities encounter more resisters. Are there any other downsides?

The website also mentions that fascism borrows from other forms of government, including governments which allow capitalism. You need to ask, playing this patch, whether the production level under fascism would be the same as a republic or democracy? To put the productivity of a fascist form of government on a par equal to a democratized industrial state, over the long run, would be historically untrue. It was not our own level of our fanaticism, or our belief in democratic ideals which ultimately defeated the Nazis. It was the fact that our nation, when mobilized for war, could outproduce all three Axis nations put together, even before daylight bombing. Really, World War II was over before it even started. Does the fascist patch recognize this?

The Fascist Patch website also casually mentions that it rules through organized violence, an implicit recognition that fascism employs terror tactics to keep its people in line and/or engages in brutal repression of dissent. Obviously, this must come at a price to such a society. Over time, the level of unhappiness must grow. Does the Fascist Patch recognize this?

Finally, let's not ingore the fact that fascism suppresses creativity, and implicitly, cultural development. Does the Fascist Patch allow for a reduced level of cultural influence? Over the long run, would Nazi Germany have stayed on par with our technological advances when they didn't concern military matters? And even when it comes to military developments, think about why Albert Einstein fled Germany and served America, and the implications of that.

To sum it up, if you are interested in playing a fascist patch, I would wait until a better source comes along. To me, the Civilization forms of government are all about balance, and you have to question the objectivity of a website that has a big obnoxious picture of Hitler at the top.

Again, my .02.

Better said Giorgicus, thanks.

If you want to see how fascism in this mod compares to the other government types, the solution is to download it and use the editor to compare them, not to conjecture on theory.

I just worked on the Fundamentalism mod, so I've been studying the balance between government types. And I'm concerned about the balance of Fascism for a few reasons, which I'll mention here.

First, the obvious benefits of fascism in this mod. Corruption is low in fascism here, on a level comparable to Republic. Only Democracy has a better corruption level. Thing is, Republic and Democracy *should* have good corruption levels, because they are peacetime governments. What they make in less corruption they spend because they don't get free supported military units. Fascism gets a good corruption level here *and* free supported military units, meaning a good influx of cash. This is a definite advantage.

Second, assimilation. For those that don't know, a higher assimilation rating means that those pesky foreigners in conquered cities will go away faster. Communism and Democracy both have high assimilation ratings, while the others have lower ones. Fascism, in this mod, is on par with Communism and Democracy. This is another advantage. And one I'm not sure I agree with, since a government based on national superiority should have a tough time integrating foreigners. We especially know that Nazi Germany didn't exactly welcome foreigners.

Fascism in this mod also receives the Standard Trade Bonus, a commerce bonus received only by Democracy and Republic. Meaning it not only gets extra cash from the low corruption levels and unit support, but also from increased trade! This seems to make it the government to choose if you want wads of money, which I don't agree with.

And unlike the other money-making government types (Republic and Democracy), Fascism suffers no war weariness. The people don't mind if you wage war endlessly.

Then there are two more things to mention. The immunity to "Steal Technology" Espionage actions and the 10 Resistance Rating to Communism. The fact that your technology can not be stolen in Fascism is a definite plus (and an unwarranted one, I think). Also, the resistance rating against Communism is twice as high as the previously highest resistance rating in the game.

For those reasons, I think the Fascism mod is a bit unbalanced. Here's how I would balance it:

1) Corruption Level goes up to "Problematic." This puts it on par with Monarchy; more corrupt than Democracy or Republic, but less corrupt than Despotism or Communism.

2) Assimilation Chance goes down to 2%. This reflects the difficult that a highly Nationalistic government has with foreigners. This is worse than Democracy or Communism, on par with Republic and Monarchy, and better than Despotism.

3) No Steal Technology Immunity. Fascist technology can be stolen just like any others.

4) Modified Resistance Ratings. Fascists are less resistant to Despotism or Monarchy governments, because they are similar in outlook to extreme nationalism. They are no more or less resistant to Democratic or Republican conquerers. They are more resistant to Anarchy and Communism, but at a rating of 5 (on par with other resistant governments), not at the previous level of 10.

How does this match up? In the rules of the game, Fascism becomes a sort of modern Monarchy (with everyone putting their belief in a nation, not a king). Corruption and Unit Support on equal to Monarchy, but Fascism can use more units as Military Police to enforce happiness. Also unlike Monarchy, Fascism allows the Standard Trade Bonus. This is balanced out by the fact that you must be much further along in scientific development to use Fascism.

If you want to use this modified form of Fascism I just described, download the mod below instead of the other mod. It is a slightly altered version of Steven Strayer's mod with the changes I mention here.

Originally posted by Further
I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, ..., yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?


I asked myself the same question and I think I nailed the answer. I like to immerse myself in games (whether you want it or not, we pretty much all do it although I know "it is just a game!"). So nuking some computers cities and inhabitants isnt a big deal because they are not flesh and bones. They are computer 0s and 1s, pixels and numbers. No big deal. NOW if the puter attack MY cities it's different because they ARE my inhabitants, little humans like me and I'm their king. I feel like they are real.

That is also why I wont play fascism because in Civ I am the leader, and I dont want to portray myself as Hitler. It's like a RPG, sorry but I dont see myself as Hitler. I want to play my game like I would if I were a real leader (mostly culture and science achievement). Again, in this game I know I'm fighting computers that is why I have no probs exterminating them (just like I loved to do in this old commodore 64 game called "the seven cities of gold". It was like civ. Man, did I loved entering villages, killing little people because they would die bursting, making a little "plop" sound, just like when you chew gum and bust bubbles) and they would get quickly excited surrounding you and attacking you while you were either trying to escape, or reach their leader :)

Originally posted by Armor
[B]I think it says a lot about you that you don't consider minority groups to be part of "the people." Do you think German and Italian Jews weren't generally long standing citizens of those countries? Or do you think they were "fiercely loyal" to their fascist governments?

Although fascism, as a form of government, is historically insignificant when compared with ancient forms such as monarchy or republic, I don't think anyone here is denying its role in history. As a choice of government for the game, I think it's a good idea if it's done correctly. But I think the difference between us is that we aren't celebrating fascism, and Hitler, as the web page for this mod appears to do.

I think it says a lot about you that you resort to personal attacks instead of discussing the subject in hand. Note I used the word "representative". I don't recall stating that Jews were not part of the people. I simply suggested it to represent the persecution of minority groups (something I find as abhorrent as anyone else)

Celebrating that kind of hatred is indeed wrong. I haven't actually visited the page, since I don't even own Civ III yet.

It is erroneous, however, to consider fascism as historically insignificant. The repercussions of fascist govenments will, I have no doubt, be felt for several generations to come, and changed the map of the entire world forever.

Just to add a voice, I find the facist patch objectionable, won't install it and think any reference to a website which arguably glorifies Hitler should be removed from this forum.

Even if we all consider ourselves enlightened intellectuals who can separate our gaming from our beliefs, not all who play the game will share our frame of mind. Many impressionable or hateful people may not have such a sophisticated interpretation of the mod.

If we accepted the arguments above for supporting the mod, we would also have to say that a game that permits you to torcher cartoonish demons, like Dungeon Keeper, is no different than a game that allows you to rape realistic looking women. Unfortunately, certain elements of reality are too important to be trivalized in a game.

I consider myself a staunch proponent of free speech, but this forum ought not to be a party to those who seek to reenact realistic, as opposed to cartoonish, acts of violence. No one would be comfortable with a wonder named Smallpox Blankets, Mai lai Massacre or Khmer Rouge for good reason. This game should never be a vehicle for people who wish to realistically reenact historical attrocities.

The facism patch is borderline, but given the tone of the website, it treads too far into dangerous ground and should not be deciminated by thoughtful, responsible people. I strongly urge this forum not to support it, at least until the website is toned down, which I take it for granted its author will categorically refuse to do.

Well, I understand where starfox and the rest are coming from. It could be very easy to misunderstand the site. I totally agree to a point... but it honestly did not bother me all that much. (and I would consider myself a big patriot) He does emphasize both the front page and within the site that this is for a GAME. He doesn't try to persuade you in any way that Fascism is "the best", nor does he make any real derogatory comments. (if you find some, please show me, and I will stand corrected) Just thought I'd ad my observation... but of course everyone IS entitled to thier own opinion. That's why we have the OPTION to download/view it or not. Thank you for your time. :)

Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

Originally posted by Kino
Given all the arguments about not supporting fascism in the game (which are valid, per each individual), I have to wonder why no one seems to care about Communism then? The Soviet Union, under Stalin, killed anywhere from 4 million to 20 million people (the numbers are really fuzzy in this case).

I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit. :p

Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did...

"Stalin and Pol Pot killed mainly their own people, and we're sort of fine with that. Hitler, though, he also killed the people next door... stupid man."

For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

Originally posted by Giorgicus
For the record, I'm not questioning whether there should be a fascism/totalitarianism government option. I question the objectivity and motivation of the "Fascist Patch" creator, and therefore question whether the fascist patch leads to unbalanced play.

Ah, so you're talking about gameplay! Now that's a discussion that belongs here. Here are the details from the fascist patch:


Civ3 Fascist Government:

Requires: Fascism

Corruption: Nuisance

Support Cost: 1

Free Units:
Town – 2
City – 4
Metro – 8

Rate Cap: 10
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation: 4%
Draft Limit: 2
Military Police: 4

Flag Conditions:
Requires Maintenance
Standard Trade Bonus

Ruler Title: Fuehrer

Diplomats are: Regular
Spies are: Regular
Immune to: Steal Technology

Propaganda Resistance
Modifier Modifier
vs
Anarchy 25 -5
Despot 20 -5
Monarch 5 5
Republic -10 5
Democ. -20 5
Comm. -25 10
Fascist 0 0

Tech Advance Cost: 100
X – 455
Y – 159
PreReq – Espionage


Nothing seems out of line to me compared to other government types, but I'm a relative newbie to the Civ series. Other opinions?

I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

i don't mind to download this mod. it is interesting to smash this nazi again and again. i also agree that we cannot wipe out the History

Originally posted by Kino
I made a big, giant reply to the game balance question on page one of this thread.

So you did...sorry I missed it the first time through. By that point I was getting itchy to post a reply, so I was just skimming. :)

I agree with most of your modifications, and the rationale behind them, with a couple of exceptions:

1) I think Fascism SHOULD have higher resistance than other forms of government, since the people truly believe that the state is supreme and may be willing to go to greater extremes to protect it (e.g. Japanese kamikazes, which would be unthinkable in most other societies). They also seem to be more brutal and thorough in crushing internal dissent.

2) The Standard Trade bonus. You have decided to leave it in for Fascist societies, even though the other totalitarian societies don't get it. Just curious what your reasoning was on that.

Thanks!

I think the Fascist Patch is great.

It was a lot of fun in Civ2.

I will definitely be using it....when I get the game.

A few things to I feel worth mentioning about some of the mod assumptions\paramters the author employed.

Fascist governments are very worker-focused, often directing state-controlled work programs, but still allowing for private corporations which allows greater commerce than communsim

Yes in theory and in practice, Fascist govt's are esstianlly free-enterprise so there should not be any real penaltys regarding wealth generation.

Due to extensive secret police networks under a fascist regime, enemy espionage missions to steal techology never succeed.

Now this sentence has some problems. Overall axis intelligence, esp counter-intelligence was not particularly effective or efficent when compared to the allies. Allied nations(including the heathen Marxists :p , were far more effective overall at gathering information, recruiting spies etc than the converse. If anything Fascits type mods should penalize there own spies rather than rewarding them with an immunity that really never existed historically. Fascist spies may be effective at repression, terror and such, but that did not grant them anything special as far as intel\counter intell vs there major opponents.

On Industry
Contrary to some popluar assumptions, Fascist war machines are not particalular efficent. Factually, axis war production techniques were generally inferior and inefficent for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this thread. Even russia was far superior to (German) war production techiques and principles. Mods should refect this with a *modest* penalty in productin. (im not sure if wealth production and *Actual hardware production can be disconnected from one another in the editors-thats a subtle but imprtortant distinction
-HOWEVER-
I dont kknow if this is even possible but some sort of technological or *military unit production bonus* would be appriate IF it could be applied selectively. Maybe in mobiliation rates or bull war fatigue would achive what im thinking of here

On War weariness.
Here I agree that war weariness should not be an issue for fascits powers, however taken with what I said above, that should come with a cost attached to it. The fact is fascist regimes are quite effective when it comes to deploying and mainting large, motivated armies for long perids-Italians notwithstanding ;)

On resistance
Here im a little less certain. Does the willingness to use brutal, direct power to suppress dissent eliminate ressitance or increase it? IF history is correct, dissent is greater if anything-not less, despite a efficent and brutal effort to suppress it. This ones debateable how to implement but prob resistance should be made a thorn in the side for any fascist mod maker to consider

On Technology,-generally fascism should recieve perhaps some sort of bonus on the military side of things to reflect there comptence, or superiority in this area. Theres no real dichotomy between a semi-inefficent industy and yet possessing a high level of technical prowess. Post war Russia would be a good example of this duality, Despite the fact the Russia had some world class designers and engineers scientists etc, the hobbled inefficent economy of communism, prevented the large scale application of those peoples skills. Democratic type societies should be best in this regards. Fascism should be above communsim yet perhaps slighty behind Democracy to simulate the effects of a less open system, yet one thats not as stiffling as say, communism is known for.

Great Leaders
Why not give Fascists a slightly higher chance to get a great leaders? That would reflect the tendancy of a more war-oriented society to produce above average share of highly motivated, compotent field commanders. That might not be out of line or innacruate either. I dont think that parameter is tweakable or ever will be-just my 2cents tho

Now its my understanding that the current editor is not very complete or flexible and ive seen many ask for tools to make historically accurate mods doable that cannot be atm? Maybe its not yet possible to make fine tuned mods yet-im new to this too, but wanted to add some of my own thoughts to the discussion.

I wanna install both the Fascism and Fundamentalsim patch so I can have both governments in the game. Anybody know how to do this?

The essential thing here is that you can't both claim that the fascist mod is for history and play balance AND have a government that essentially portrays fascism as perfect.
So, the following suggestions for realism;

Required tech; y the new tech? Nationalism would do fine as a prerequisite.

Corruption; monarch level seems appropriate, cosidering how much embezzlement went on.

Conscription; considering how overboard the fascisms went w/conscription, I think that 4 would be right.

Because fascist govs were very into militarism, they should have something akin to all units starting veteran or elite in cities w/ barracks. Obviously thats a big deal, but it gets weighed out.

Lets face it -- the fascist govs severely weakened the cultures of their countries. No culture should be generated. And each unit surpressing discontent (max 4?) should lower culture by one, since the prefferred methods involve machine guns and grenades.

Also, I would say that research should be very, very weak. The fascist govs essentially chased all the scientists away, and then concentrated on moronic projects like sound guns and such. No research seems too harsh, but maybe research at 10% the normal rate is fair.

As for resistance percentages.... what has already been said doesn't suffice. No city will EVER totally submit to a gov that feels they are totally inferior. And what's this about fasicst cities resisting? Lets face it... they went belly up the second they were beat in the world war, both to the commies and the us/uk. I would say assimilation from fascist to any other should be VERY rapid.

Now, I doubt I could make most of this into a modpack.... but what do people think about balance? Essentially, this is true to the real fascist govs and provides a good government for a quick conquer the world rush. Too strong? Too weak?

Uteno I think you put in place some penalties that are not only inaccurate but overly harsh. I have been thinking on this and here is how I think a fascist government should probably be laid out in the game.

First of all Fascism basically tries to alter the makeup of a nations government and society to gear it completely towards war. To do that the society and organizations that govern that society MUST be mobilized completely behind the rulers and their goals. Persicution of minority groups within that society and redressing of supposed "wrongs" against the state are generally the prefered methods. Another popular method is to completely indoctrinate the populace and especially the children to the values and beliefs of the rulers. The end result is a completly loyal populace. A populace willing to accept almost anything for what the rulers deam to be the good of the state. A nation geared towards one thing above all else. War and it's execution to completion. The positive effect of this is that the people are very resistant to anemy propoganda, the military is usually VERY well motivated if not well trained, and the people are willing to suffer the full horrors of war far longer than most nations would. The downward effects are that culture suffers tremendously as all that does not conform is crushed and creativity and invetivness, except when under strict government guidance, almost ceases to exist. Also conquered peoples are almost never assimilated into the society at large and thus remain a constant source of problems for fascist states. Next though a free enterprise is allowed to continue it generally does suffer because it is now under strict government supervision. Finally Fascist foreign spy networks seem to have a tendancy to be easily discovered and turned to the other side.


So here is what I would do.

required technology would be nationalism.
POSTIVES
Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states.
All units start as Veteran without a barracks and as Elite with a barracks.
War weariness is almost nill but not completly removed as even a fascist will only tolerate so much.
Police state high but not higher than comunism, maybe 1 lower.
Military support about equal with monarchy.

NEGATIVES
Culture generation is REALLY low in fascism and decreases by 1 point for every unit serving a police function that city.
Maybe a small trade and income hit.
Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse.
Conquered people can NOT be assimilated and can not be happy, only content or unhappy.
More resisters.
Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states.

Thats it. I think it pretty well reflects the pros and cons of a Fascist state. I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. So if you like to conquer the world and have LOTS of income before switching this is the gov for you.

Hmmm... overly harsh, you say? I suppose you mean in cutting down science, stopping culture, and implementing those stringent assimilation rules.... well, actually, I think those are the most realistic of all the conditions.... but we are trying to reach a mix of historical and gameplay balance.

Remember, again that I'm not thingking of this government's use in terms of "I got nationalism and now I'm gonna be fascist and stay there until the game ends." I'm thinking specifically in terms of "I have my forces and economy poised, I have the important indy age techs, now I'll switch to fascism and conquer the world." I really never won Civ 2 by conquest, and haven't even tried for Civ 3... but if I wanted to, I'd love to switch to that gov't.

After all... culture? It affects your borders and relations. If you don't plan on there being other nations, not a problem. If you can't conquer the world w/ elite but low tech units... well, I you shouldn't have switched. And as for assimilation, the cities may be useless, but you just want to conquer the world.

If you plan on conquering the world, you shouldn't have to worry about whether your pop will assimilate or not.

"Propoganda and spying resistance would be pretty high especially to comunist states. "

All this stuff about fascist invulnrability to communism annoys me. Propaganda, yes, I agree. But other spying should be simple... with so much discontent, the fascist govs always had thousands of resistance cells to deal w/

"Maybe a small trade and income hit. "

If you were using this just to balance, I could see it; but as a realism thing, it makes zero sense. I think my negatives work better.

"Corruption is high in Fascism about as bad as monarchy maybe a little worse. "

Have you played as a monarchy yet? I couldn't bear to put MORE corruption on them...

"Much harder to pull spy jobs in other civs, little easier in comunist states. "
Once again, this silly communist thing... they were ideologically enemies, but this isn't like you gain magical powers when confronting your nemesis...

"I didn't touch science because I felt a fascist state should get bonuses for militery tech but take a big hit in non-military tech and I didn't think that could be implemented. "

Heh.. thats exactly the way I felt as I was mentally composing a solution. And then I thought, 'wait, what were the military innovations of the fascists?' What comes to mind are jets. And they weren't even half decent jets... they were jet prototypes.

Really, the fascist govs didn't make any science at all... they concentrated on military, true, but think about the stuff they were looking at. Really big mirrors, endothermic reactions, sound guns, gigantic cannons... impracticle and useless. All their scientists left, the remainders were stupid....

Well I have just done so much reading on this post, my eyes are blurry, and I can't even be bothered to say anything now.

But my two cents says, facism is a real and acceptable form of government, it has been responsible for virtually no atrocities in comparrison to say christianity, yet the game has chapels and cathedrals.

Not long ago a Dictatorship slaughtered 800,000 rowandans, yet nobody minds dictatorship rule.

I am personally not interested in a fascist patch, and I didn't even bother to check the web site, Hitler is a symbol of Facism so it is acceptable hitler was big and bold on the front page, just as maybe a communist patch may have had Lenon or Stalin, yet I am sure noone would have complained about that.

I say lighten up, there have been far worse leaders than Hitler in the ages, and far worse governments than facism. So include the patch and anyone who doesn't want it, they aren't forced to.:goodjob:

Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

Let's avoid the philosophical and moral argument. It's an unanswerable debate, and will only bog down a worthwhile discussion on game balance here. Afterall, this is a forum for the game, not politics.

I agree with some of the suggestions made about balancing the fascist government, but many of those proposals just aren't possible within the scope of the game editor (as it exists now). I can't give a government a bonus when producing war-related units or city improvements. The way to accomplish that is to choose a civilization with the "Militaristic" characteristic (i.e. Rome, Germany, Japan, Aztecs, Persia, or Zulu). However, using the editor you *can* change it so that any civilization is Militaristic, but there is no way to apply those characteristics to a government choice. The best you can do is to turn down War Weariness (Fascism in my version has none), allow a high military police number (Fascism in my version has 4, tied for highest), and allow for military unit support (Fascism uses the wartime government standard). Within the limits of the editor, I've tried to do my best to represent the style of government and balance it with the other governments in question. Essentially, Fascism is the best economic wartime government. Communism, however, has strengths over Fascism when it comes to espionage (but it leaks like a sieve economically).

Achiles had a question about installing both the Fascism and Fundamentalism patches. I'll try to package the two of them into one patch; but until I do that, here's another method:

1) Install the Fascist Patch as described in the ReadMe file.
2) Then open the Civ3Fund.doc file that I included with the Fundamentalism patch.
3) Then open up your Civilization directory and open Civ3mod.bic
4) In the toolbar at the top, go to "Rules" then "Edit Rules" then hit the "Governments" tab.
5) You'll now see the screen used to edit/create governments. Hit the Add button and manually add Fundamentalism.
6) Fill in the Fundamentalism government with the stats I provided in the Civ3Fund.doc file.
7) Save and enjoy. You'll now have both governments.

Originally posted by Comrade Juhon
Hey, anybody know what happened to Dresden in 1945?
It got demolished! Throughout WWII Nazi bombers killed 50,000 British civilians. I am not saying that was good, but compared to the U.S.A. ("International Policeman of the World") and Britains bombing campaign against Dresden, it pales into significance. The Allied bombers killed 130,000 civilians in a FEW DAYS!!! So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys? I'm just saying that under a "democratic" society, I can be arrested for treason if the queen tells me to go and fight and I say no!!!The U.S.A thinks it is the good guys but look at this list of countries in which they have killed innumerable amounts of civilians, directly and indirectly since WWII!!!

Vietnam
Iraq
Afghanistan
Korea

and economically!!!

All of Asia (exc. Japan)
All Africa
Russia


I don't think they are the good guys, do you?

I wish some people would stop thinking in such simple terms.

When looking at humanity, its completely useless to label things as being purely good or evil. If it werent for that way of thinking, wars wouldnt be started purely over hatred for what a particular people see as evil.

But governments wont let people think this way, and advise them to tell their children that their attackers or oppressors are unequivocally and undeniably evil, just because its better for their peace of mind. Could you imagine how kids would feel if they knew that their attackers werent all bad, and that the conflict could be started over a simple misunderstanding? They'd be utterly confused! So just feed them this easy to understand propoganda. Then they'll know exactly what to feel, and they'll know exactly what to tell their children when they're confused when another attack takes place. It'll keep going on and on like that until it's hard copied into our subconcious that everyone that attacks us is evil and our only option is to eliminate them. After all, if they're undeniably evil, how can we reason with them?

The attacks on america and many other nations through the years, by terrorists, have been terrible. That can't be denied. However, they were not senseless. They had a very human motive, whether it was revenge, ambition, or just jealousy. When people realise that, and I hope they have the stomach to process that fact, they will realise that their enemy isnt someone they can just reach out and strike at, or bomb from miles and miles away. The enemy is within ourselves, within our own primal, human nature.

If we could leave such useless emotions behind, we would become divine and there would finally be some kind of peace. Personally, I dont think humanity has what it takes. Our race as it stands is a monkey with a revolver in his hands. We've overstepped our boundaries and our advanced tools/weapons will only be as useful to us as our primitive minds.

Well I went to the site to see what all the upset was about and I have to say that they were very good about warning people ahead of time. If you wound up feeling sick Starfox why didn't you just opt out of going in at the warning screen?
History is history and if we choose to ignore some aspects of it now even in gameplay future generations will have even less of a grasp on what went on than we do.

Oh no! Someone is trying to express themselves freely on the internet...we had better stop them...

I hate it when people complain about something and use their preferences as a means to censor other people. Fascism is a government just like Democracy and Communism and there's truly no reason for it to be absent from the game. If you disagree so strongly with this form of government, by all means DONT download the patch. But stop complaining about someone excercising their freedom of expression. Who cares if the person that created this patch is a Fascist or not? Disagree with him/her all you want. The internet is one of the last places where freedom exists (although not in a pure form), please don't try to apply your narrow minded censorship to it like has been applied to so many other forms of media.

On a side note, I'd really like to see someone add a Libertarian government to the game. I think that would rock. The most amazing part of this last statement Ive made is the fact that so many of you probably have no clue as to what Libertarianism is all about. This is why you comprise the "mindless masses".

It seems like whenever I think people are truly ready for freedom and true tolerance of others' ideas (no matter how "disagreeable"), something like this happens and I come to realize that people are more narrow than I thought. Open mindedness doesn't mean you tolerate only the most "politically correct" things, it means you tolerate everything. I urge you all to have an open mind about this and everything else. Another person's freedom of expression won't hurt you unless you let it.

I think almost all the posts about Fascism have missed an important point: it failed historically. It failed quickly (within 12 years) and in addiion to destroying millions of people, it subjected its most prominent supporters to ridicule for most, if not all, of history since its demise.

For better or for worse, fundamentalism has proven more effective.

First of all I like the modpack, particularly when modifed, but...

I think there's another way to handle Fascist governments, without creating a new Government.

Mobilizing a Republic gives you significantly higher military production, less culture, less non-military production. A mobilized economy happens when you take a capitalist economy and temporarily divert all production to the State's warmongering purposes. Furthermore, mobilizing makes you act in a warlike and aggressive way 'cos you have to declar war on someone.

ISTM that since Fascist/Nazi governments only existed for relatively brief periods of time, always went to war, and did a huge amount of militayr production at the expense of culture:

Germany: 1933-45 invaded Poland etc
Italy: 1922-43 tried to invade France, Yugoslavia, Abyssinia
some E. European countries in late 30s/early40s
Spain: Considerably longer but considerably less 'fascist'; didn't invade anyone.
Japan: Difficulties applying the Fascist concept here, but only extreme-nationalist in the period 1930-1945; invaded Korea, Manchuria pre-Pearl Harbour then most of Asia.

The short duration and huge military focus of these countries means that they can be modelled in Civ3 by Republics, mobilizing for war in peacetime...

What does anyone else think?

Hmm...Libertarianism. I might be able to work on a mod for that, I just need to think up how it would operate in-game.

Originally posted by Gareeth
If you wound up feeling sick Starfox why didn't you just opt out of going in at the warning screen?


Because I wasnt given the choice. The link has been changed so now it directs to the homepage, instead of directly to the core of the web site as it was when the admin posted the info.

Just wanted to say that I was simply expressing my mind when I posted my thoughts. I wasnt trying to tell you guys what to do as some seemed to believe.

PS: thanks to the people who advised me not to download or use the pack! I really hadn't thought of that! ;)

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Certainly, this was an ugly time in world history, but so was Roman persecution of Christians, and Stalins repressions, and the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch trials, etc. Maybe we should remove Rome, and Russia, and England, etc from the game?

I think the author does a pretty good job of validating his thougts on the opening page of his site. If you didn't want to be offended, as per his warning, why did you look at it?

Thanks Kino for the alternate patch... I havent had time to test it but it looks like it will be much better balanced. The original looked way out of whack.

as for my 2cents, facism has been a major type of goverment in the 1900's where most of the action in civ/civ2/civ3 takes place, the game almost slows to a crawl at that point, so although historicly facism may not have had such a impact as democracy/republic/monarcy type goverments it has has a signifigant impact on this century and i see no reason why it should be left out... the original patch does seem to be lopsided almost to the point of cheating (ie it would be silly not to be facist) and in the real world there are many many reasons why a modern goverment would not choose facism. i also think that facist goverments should loose respect internationaly and most govt types excludeing despotisms/monarchys should have some type of diplomatic penalty (more penalty for democracy, a little less for republic, less agian for comminism... (depending on personal freedom and civilian influence in goverment.) what does anyone think of that?

next362"

Okay... it's me... the guy behind the Fascist Patch.

I was quite surprised to see everyone get so worked up over a game and debate things that were clearly stated at the Fascist Patch website... somehow, somepeople just want to hate and censor everyone else to what THEY think is right and wrong. Wow, what an attitude. Well I guess we should all be happy that we have people who are willing to judge what other people should and shouldn't view or use.

Remember this... the Fascist Patch doesn't mean YOU have to play as a Fascist... maybe it's there to FIGHT Fascist AI of the computer.

Anyways, forget the debate which has nothing to do with the GAME... let's talk about the GAME, and why I did it!

Philosophy behind the Fascist Patch.

First off, is the obvious question... why Fascism? To answer your first thought... no, I'm not a Fascist, nor do I think it's "cool" or any such thing, I just can't stand political correctness, especially when it attempts to alter or ignore history, and especially when it comes at the cost of minimalizing the impact Fascism had on the 20th Century. Regardless of its succes or failure, or it's time on earth Fascism had a TREMENDOUS impact on the 20th Century whose ramifications simply can not be ignored for politicall correctness. Yet somehow it's okay to include Communism, which was responsible for nearly 30 million dead this century. I guess as long as it was mostly Russians who died, it's okay to include Communism in Civ2 and Civ3???

In a nutshell, the purpose of the Fascist Patch is to add a BALANCED VIABLE THIRD OPTION of government to the late-game of Civ2/Civ3. First and foremost it seeks balance, secondly, if possible, it seeks accuracy. Obviously a Fascist Regime can have many drawbacks, but for gameplay, keeping it balanced BETWEEN Communism and Democracy is the MAIN goal. Most of what I state concerns Civ3, but can often be applied to Civ2 as well (at least the goal of a third government for late games).

It's been stated before, nobody uses Republic late in the game. There is a reason for this... because anyone who uses Republic tends to switch to either Democracy or Communist late in the game.

Why do they switch? Why does nobody use Republic late in the game?

Because the corruption of Republic is simply awful and nobody chooses it over the lower corruption of Democracy or Communism.

If you stop and think for a minute, how I rated Fascism is simply a Republic with no war weariness and free units, but it still has the awful corruption of Republic.

Fascism is CLEARLY superior to Republic... it's supposed to be, because nobody uses Republic late in the game. Don't think of Fascism being superior to a Republic in regards to a modern 20th century republic, but rather think of Fascism being superior to something more akin to the Ancient Roman Republic (which was rife with corruption itself). After all, in game terms, nobody uses republic in the late game because it "seems" like an "ancient" government in it's usefullness, so I have no qualms about making Fascism better than a Republic.

What it is NOT clearly superior to is Democracy (which will kick a Fascist Government in the ass with research and commerce), or Communism, which has a lower and better balanced corruption rate than Fascism.

Fascism seeks a middle ground between the high science and monies of a Democracy, and the all-out-war status of a Communist regime. Fascism lies in the murky ground somewhere in-between, as Fascism has always had a strange place between free market and totalitarian power. Both in Civ2 and in Civ3, Fascism is a Jack-of-many-trades, but master of none. It is decent in science and taxes, better than Communism, but not as good as a Democracy? it is better at war than Democracy, but not as good as Communism.

As stated above there are disadvantages...

CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION

The biggest one is the corruption which is obviously bigger than either Communism or Democracy, plus because Fascism comes late in the game, it sucks even worse if you're a large empire (which most people are late in the game) since corruption is awful on the fringes of your empire... neither Communism or Democracy have to deal with this.

Bottom line, the only advantage Fascism has over Communism is the trade bonus, and NOTHING ELSE. Communism on the other hand, is much better at being a large empire and dealing with corruption. Communism?s level of corruption in Civ3 is BOTH lower AND spread out better than Fascism.

The Democracy is a tougher call, but is clearly a better choice than Fascism for some... people say the "war weariness" is great for Fascism vs Democracy... well, maybe to a warmonger it is, but if you're shooting for culture or other peaceful endeavors what good is war weariness to you? Furthermore with less corruption (far less), A Democracy can outresearch a fascist government, so clearly, for the peaceful player (or even a defensive wartime player), Democracy is a better choice than Fascism.

Nazi Germany was NEVER geared towards a major war effort... in fact, every plan the Germans had regarding war was the minimalist approach. Blitzkrieg warfare by it's very nature is designed to be short decisive wars with minimal economic impact at home. The Nazis lost partly-in-fact because the war with Communist Russia dragged on... the Communists successfully adjusted the economy, while the Nazis handled theirs poorly during the war.

Scientifically, though Nazi Germany suffered corruption and redundant programs, they still had great scientific success, something the Communists never (or at least rarely) had. Not to say that the Nazis had a better science drive than American Democracy, but it was CERTAINLY better than the Soviets!

Overall, if you look at what I did, is that I placed Fascism IN-BETWEEN Communism and Democracy in it's effectiveness for wartime and peace... a whole I think Fascism fills in nicely.

Communism under the Fascist Patch also gets a further boost of free units? double that of Fascism, so there is BALANCE here with the patch.

As for one other tidbit... a Fascist Government hurries production with slave labor, ergo killing off it's own population... something a Democracy (or even Republic) doesn't do!

Yes, Virginia, Fascism has plenty of downsides.

Originally posted by bob92


I was just about to make this very point. Stalin and Pol Pot killed MANY more people than Hitler did. Where is the objection to having Communism in the game?

The Romans used to invade foreign cities and kill or enslave every man, woman, and child in the city. Whoops, so much for Democracy and Republic...

And Dictators around the world have been slaughtering and torturing people for thousands of years. Yet every player is REQUIRED to adopt Despotism for the first couple of thousand years! The horror!

Some of you people need a serious reality check. It's a game. If you think the patch will increase your enjoyment of the game, then install it. If not, don't.

As for those of you who want to censor all mention of the patch from this board so that others won't be able to find out about it--perhaps you have more in common with the fascists than you'd like to admit. :p

Hurray Hurray !!!!!! You said it.

Because I find this whole discusion a load of BULL !!!!!!

Like somebody earlier told before ITS A FREAKING GAME !!!!!!

Originally posted by Uteno
Heh.. thats exactly the way I felt as I was mentally composing a solution. And then I thought, 'wait, what were the military innovations of the fascists?' What comes to mind are jets. And they weren't even half decent jets... they were jet prototypes.

Really, the fascist govs didn't make any science at all... they concentrated on military, true, but think about the stuff they were looking at. Really big mirrors, endothermic reactions, sound guns, gigantic cannons... impracticle and useless. All their scientists left, the remainders were stupid....

Jets? That's it? not "even half decent jets"? The Me262 aircraft was a superior aircraft design than America's 1st *AND* 2nd jet designs. Not until the F-86 did an American design compare to the Me262. Furthermore, German designers were researching much more interesting aircraft up until the end of the war. Ever heard of the Go-229? It was a flying wing concept that was in production, but never saw service. Next time an aircraft like it was put into production? Only the lowly, and half-decent B-2 Bomber. The research into Rocket-based aircraft helped form the basis for our X-1/X-15 aircraft designed to test speed limitations on airplanes.

And, all of the smart scientists were chased off. Which is exactly why one of the biggest reasons the West and the East raced to capture Germany's research sites was to import these stupid scientists back into the country for the upcoming Cold War. Werner Von Braun, the man without which, putting a person on the moon would not have been accomplished yet, let alone our advancement into un-manned rockets for launching of Nuclear warheads on ICBMs (but also for launch of satellites into orbit) was most definitely an idiot.

There's a reason why Germany was able to mobilise from the lack of a military in 1932, when Hitler took power, to a military that the entire world feared in 1939, and it wasn't because fascism is such an industry and research stifling form of government. The reason Germany was so successful throughout 1942? They had the most advanced, mechanized, and coordinated land force on the planet, and it showed. Part of this is because they built their military from scratch, leading to a more modernized military. But they still built it very quickly. A big reason for the slowdown in production later in the war was caused by the heavy use of slave labor, and the eventual break-down of this form of labor-force for extended periods of time. But production-wise, the German war machine was quite amazing: for instance, contrary to what might've been expected, the production of war-products actually increased throughout much of the Allied Strategic Bombing campaign.

Culturally, while uniformism is stressed in a fascist society, it is no less culturally suppressive than a communist regime. The tenents of Communism, in fact, would rather you believe in no religion at all.

I've got to think that such a hub-bub about a Fascism government addition is odd, especially seeing as how the Free Western World, just a decade ago, finally ended it's struggle with the Communist Bloc, yet Communism has always been included as a government type. I've got to wonder, since Despotism is already included, if the Fascist-style governments of the mid-20th century had been lumped under the Dictatorship/Despotic form, and all was assumed well. But obviously, a modern-Fascist form of government requires a more complicated implementation.

The difference between these two, when examining them for implementation in the game, is that Fascism, and in particular, Nazi Germany's implementation of Fascism, carries with it much more emotional baggage, because of the Holocaust, and Nazi Germany being the most visible implementation. Obviously the author was intending to model the in-game version of this government after Germany's implementation as opposed to Italy's or Japan's, for instance, because of the graphics he has used. But as with most WW2 wargames, the issue of the holocaust is completely ignored, not to degrade it's significance historically, Civ2's implementation also ignored it. With Civ3, the subject is a bit stickier, because of the addition of Cultural significance and National identity. Perhaps a Nationalism patch should be included, because, well, WW1 was wrought by the advent of Nationalism and a Nationalistic turn of governments (even though officially still Monarchys). The pre-WW2 outbreak of Fascism is really just a radically motivated/twisted continuation of this trend.

I've seen the website, and I don't really agree with the layout of the site, but regardless of the motivation of creating the patch, it really surprised me that the government type was not included in Civ3-standard. Perhaps it was because Sid wanted to return to the standard governments from Civ1 after failing to implement a new govt in Fundamentalism effectively... but whatever the reason, the addition is welcome to my game, not for the sole purpose of "hunting those evil Nazi's," but for a bit more historic accuracy, and more diversity. A game where you're supposed to create the civilization and build it as you like, the more options at your disposal, the better.

Anyway, I read through this thread, and wanted to add in my 2 cents on what I was reading.

I think Giorgicus said it best.

That site is disgusting.

That said, I don't have a problem with there being a fascist govt/patch. As mentioned above, there are many concepts in the game that mirror real life evils and horrors.

The game may as well have THE MOST evil historical governmental incarnation. Cuz that's what fascism is.

Evil. Just by what it represents, fascism is the bane of freedom and good.

Anyone that disagrees with that, or says 'but hitler did some good things. he built roads and stuff' is also probably quite evil, whether they realize it or not.

But I can't wait to play it......

One note: Fascism was a complete failure as a form of government. Why can be debated, but the fact is they got their @$$es gloriously whooped 60 years ago.

Gloriously whooped!!!!

And with or without Werner, we'd be on the moon by now. He played the biggest role at the time, but come on....

IMHO Fascism is not a government type, but a political idealogy. The actual government imployed in germany could be honestly portrayed by despotism, after all Hitler was a despot.

All the mechanics of the game accurately portray the history of the period, killing population points to rush build stuff etc., lack of war weariness, support for units . . . .

I don't think I will load this patch because I believe that it offers an imbalance, making a repulsive form of government more beneficial than it was. This is not furthering history, it is skewing it.

Despotism was introduced late in Hitler's rise to power. The more beneficial aspects of his party's rule were gleaned earlier under a government type that could be better described as democratic or republican.

Just my opinion.

If you don't like it, don't download it and don't look and covtemplate it. A big part of the Internet is being able to publish whatever you want and express your own views. What many of you are suggesting is censorship of the Internet and I don't like it. Well anyway keep on civing.

it represents history accurately and to those asking questions about Fascism being an ideology and not a government type, then what is democracy?

i will not get into these arguments on these boards other than to say this is a game that strives to represent the world, and history, as accurately as possible. If communism is a governement then fascism should be as well.

if you are offended by the accuracy of history, don't install this mod

...and why are you reading this anyway!

this thread is out of control!

so to add to the madness, here's my interpretation of what fascism should be in the game. (no consideration given to balance I'm afraid)

and I will stick with what can actually be altered in the rules.

prereq: nationalism
-this is basis of fascism, everybody interpreted the new idea of popular rule differently, this is the least liberal interpretation.

free units: 10 per metro,
-to reflect the increased conscription.

worker rate: 3
-democracy's rate because fascism worked people to death basically, and their heavy use of rail

assimilation chance: 4
-democracy's rate because cities are tightly controlled by police and propaganda

military police limit: 5
- 1+ communism's rate to reflect the military police's enormous effect on the minds of the populace.

draft limit: 3 or maybe 4
-fascist germany relied very heavily on conscription to battle numerically superior enemies, and at the end of the war, germany and the other countries it conscripted from were enormously drained of men, but so was russia which is why I tend towards 3, communism's rate.

hurrying production: forced labor
-as I said, fascists tended to basically enslave people

war weariness: none
-I really thought about changing this to low, its a myth that germany/italy never tired of the war. they tired of it pretty quickly, but since no one was allowed to dissent, I put it at none.

diplomats: elite
-this is to reflect germany's fantastic pre-war military buildup that was wildly illegal according to the no-military treaties germany signed after WWI.

spies: regular
-german spies were pretty good at concealing their war crimes, and propaganda in the US, and finding internal enemies, but they severely lost the code war, so I won't make them veteran.

immune to: investigate city, propaganda (i don't know if you can pick 2)
-they did keep their death camps secret, and they were highly effective with their own propaganda

standard trade bonus: on
-like it or not, fascism when not at war was extremely profitable. above threads act like germany wasn't fascist before WWII, but they were.

Ruler titles: duce, fuhrer, I forget the spanish one
-reply to above: Japan was not a fascist state.

I'd put corruption at nuisance, but I'm not sure what corruption really represents, other than a stupid hack fix for a flawed engine.


I think this is an imbalanced modification to the game, because this would be the best government. However this is due to game flaws, but I would put fascism on par with democracy and communism, at least for short periods of time. We've never really seen a fascist government go on for a long period of time.

my information comes mainly from an excellent couple of books called the rise and fall of the third reich, I highly recommend it.

as to whether fascism is inherently evil, I'd say yes, but only because I believe in freedom. I would say that monarchy/despotism/communism are all evil too. However that is me speaking as a citizen, if I could, I would be a fascist leader, because I think that would be the most fun.

I guess the stock responses to anyone who questions the motives and/or playability of this patch fall into two predictably reactionary categories: (1) don't play or read it if you don't like it, and (2) how dare you advocate censorship on the internet.

Well, the reason why we are reading this thread is because we are engaging in a free and open discussion of ideas. I hope nobody has a problem with that.

And I am also not going to simply look the other way while others pervert history. I will always speak up when it comes to discussing matters of historical accuracy, especially regarding fascism and totalitarianism. As Justice Brandeis once said, "a little sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Respectfully,
Georgicus

You're right, Paradox, that is an imbalanced fascism version. :)

>this thread is out of control!

>so to add to the madness, here's my interpretation of what
>fascism should be in the game. (no consideration given to
>balance I'm afraid)

And then will be my own opinion on your interpretation :)


>and I will stick with what can actually be altered in the rules.

>prereq: nationalism
>-this is basis of fascism, everybody interpreted the new idea of
>popular rule differently, this is the least liberal interpretation.

Agree. The most known fascisms relied heavily on the supposed superiority of their nation (and race) to justify a right to rule over others.

>free units: 10 per metro,
>-to reflect the increased conscription.

Acceptable.
Fascism is directed toward control, police and army. It's build for it. So ok.

>worker rate: 3
>-democracy's rate because fascism worked people to death
>basically, and their heavy use of rail

Here I don't agree. It's true that a lot of people under fascism worked harder due to propaganda, forced labor, and police, but there were also big resistances with sabotages, spying and the like due to rebellious people, hard pressed by the inhuman vision of the society. Moreover, the constant police control kill initiative, creativity and the like. So I would stick with the worker rate of 2.


>assimilation chance: 4
>-democracy's rate because cities are tightly controlled by police
>and propaganda

Well, time to end the joke. Assimilation in fascism ? What a joke ! Fascism is all about national glory and racial superiority. The very idea of assimilation would frighten even more the fascists than the people being assimilated ; whose people who would not be eager to be assimilated by such a government that consider them as inferiors.
Look at history : Germany did not assimilate anyone but the Sudetes. Even the Dutch and Alsacians, who were considered as Germans by Hitler and had a common culture with Germany resisted assimilation.
Japan invaded China and Korea, and slaughtered civilian, never even wanting to hear about considering PEOPLE as part of their empire.

Assimilation chance : 0 or 1. But I think 0 is more representative.

>military police limit: 5
>- 1+ communism's rate to reflect the military police's enormous
>effect on the minds of the populace.

The police in fascism was frightening. Everyone feared the dreaded Gestapo. So it would be acceptable to have a 5 police limit.
Though, more people resisted to the tyranny. So I would say, stay with the same police limit as communism.

>draft limit: 3 or maybe 4
>-fascist germany relied very heavily on conscription to battle
>numerically superior enemies, and at the end of the war,
>germany and the other countries it conscripted from were
>enormously drained of men, but so was russia which is why I
>tend towards 3, communism's rate.

The armies of Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 recruited almost anyone they could, especially in the battle in Berlin, where women, teenagers and 60 years men fought.
So it's very logical. Agree.

>hurrying production: forced labor
>-as I said, fascists tended to basically enslave people

Agree too. Germany killed thousands Russians with forced labor. Most of the death camp were aimed to "kill through labor".
Hurrying production by forced labor is nearly a sine qua non for fascism.

>war weariness: none
>-I really thought about changing this to low, its a myth that
>germany/italy never tired of the war. they tired of it pretty
>quickly, but since no one was allowed to dissent, I put it at
>none.

If a government is able to be constantly in war, it's the fascism. Nearly designed for. Putting war weariness is definitely a no-no.

>diplomats: elite
>-this is to reflect germany's fantastic pre-war military buildup
>that was wildly illegal according to the no-military treaties
>germany signed after WWI.

Disagree. Germany could do this because the Europe was living with the dread memory of the WW1, and public opinions wanted the peace whatever the cost. In fact, diplomats in fascism are nothing big enough to talk about. A fascism is toward either ignoring the rest of the world and concentrate onto internal stability (Argentina, Spain under Franco, Greece under "the colonels") and thus, does not have much use of diplomatic ways, either is agressive towards the foreigners and don't use a lot diplomacy (Argentina about the UK isles i.e. , Japan, Italy). So the diplomat should be weaker if any change should be made.
Diplomat : either normal or, if possible, weakened.

>spies: regular
>-german spies were pretty good at concealing their war crimes,
>and propaganda in the US, and finding internal enemies, but
>they severely lost the code war, so I won't make them veteran.

Germans did not discovered anything about the radars during the Battle of England, they did not succeed in jamming the US atomic research, while at the same time a number of covert missions of Allied were successfully driven in Germany. Italy has never anything close to a performant secret service during the WW2. Japanese handled it better, but they could not find the secret codes of USA, while USA could at least partially decode theirs.
All in all, never any fascim has impressive spies.

So Spies : normal, and if possible weakened.

>immune to: investigate city, propaganda (i don't know if you can
>pick 2)
>-they did keep their death camps secret, and they were highly
>effective with their own propaganda

Immune to propaganda is acceptable. The politic police would not allow anyone to make any propaganda except the official one. Thus, investigate city don't seem to me very realistic.
So I would say that fascism should be resistant/immune to propaganda, but that's all.

>standard trade bonus: on
>-like it or not, fascism when not at war was extremely profitable.
>above threads act like germany wasn't fascist before WWII, but >they were.

Fascism is, like it was previously said, in acquaintance with free market. Thus it should gain the trade bonus.
BUT, many of the ressources of a fascism government is headed toward police and the army to sustain the high control it requires.
So I would say that one nullify the other, and that the benefit from trade bonus is showed in the extra unit support, and the ability to do more police and more draft.

>Ruler titles: duce, fuhrer, I forget the spanish one
>-reply to above: Japan was not a fascist state.

Furher. The spanish one was "caudillo" (the capitan of the chief, if I'm correct).
The Japan WAS a fascist state. It perhaps had the Emperor, but only at a symbolic figure (except at the very end of the war when the Emperor forced its military staff to make peace), and the power was in the hands of generals. The government was praising the racial superiority of Japaneses, was aiming a huge conquest war to realize the dream of the Dai Nippon (great Japan, from Korea to Australia) and showed all the features of fascism. Japan in WW2 was, in fact, fascist.

>I'd put corruption at nuisance, but I'm not sure what corruption
>really represents, other than a stupid hack fix for a flawed
>engine.

Corruption represent the quantity of goods, money and work that is wasted/embezzled (right word ?). The reasons can be that the local men in charge keep a part for themselves, or that the city is a remote, backward one, or that there is a tradition to bribe the official (particularly for despotic government, as in ancient China), etc...
Fascism has a part of 'cult of the leader'. The power is absolute in the hand of the dirigeant, and subsequently (spelling ?) the power of someone in fascism is nearly all the time absolute toward his inferiors. Just see as how Goering, Goebbels and the like could kill thousand people just if they wanted, with a single phone call.
So what happen is that a large part of the wealth is easily theft by city governors and the like, so the corruption should be fairly high (remember how Goering could pillage all the art from occupied territory, just to be able to show them in his house).
Corruption : AT LEAST the level of republic.

>I think this is an imbalanced modification to the game, because
>this would be the best government. However this is due to
>game flaws, but I would put fascism on par with democracy and
>communism, at least for short periods of time. We've never
>really seen a fascist government go on for a long period of time.

Franco hold Spain for more than 30 years. Greece was ruled by Colonels for nearly as long. Argentina and Brazil suffered the same fate. The fact is, fascism is good for war, but the rest of the country is stagnant, because of the lack of freedom and because most of the nation's energy is directed toward repression.

>my information comes mainly from an excellent couple of books
>called the rise and fall of the third reich, I highly recommend it.

>as to whether fascism is inherently evil, I'd say yes, but only
>because I believe in freedom. I would say that
>monarchy/despotism/communism are all evil too. However that
>is me speaking as a citizen, if I could, I would be a fascist
>leader, because I think that would be the most fun.

Well, that is not part of the game, if we start about it, we will end in a philosophical reasoning about Good and Bad, and it's "only" a Civ3 forum here :)

If you dont like the patch dont download it. Plain and Simple.

i look forward to playing with this mod.

it is just a game, afterall.

I agree that fascism has as much a place in the game as communism, republic and democracy.....shoot, it's not like the usa is innocent of committing crimes against humanity. it was only 35 years ago we had politicians fighting against civil rights. some of them are even still in congress! strom thurmond switched from the democrats to republicans because he didn't want to be associated with the n****r lovers!!! not sure what's more amazing, he's still alive AND still in the senate. those carolinians...
:rolleyes:

I am very anti-censorship.....my son's school board is actually trying to ban a couple books....harry potter has even been mentioned!!!!! dumasses....anyway, i do not advocate any censorship. say what you want. which is what I'm abou to do.....

there are, apparently (but, unfortunately, not surprisingly) some loosely veiled nazi sypathizers posting here.

WTF is wrong with you people?

if you sympathize, excuse, empathize, etc.... you are a pig. a swine. an ignorant, lower form of life. i wish i could extract from my head words to describe the utter disgust i have for anyone that does.

historically, are there any redeming qualities about fascism? (rhetorical question, not to be used as an opportunity to tell me about the great roads hitler built!)

Alright, if your problem with this or ANY fascist patch is simply the use of the swastika, or you'd just rather have a change, I drew up a new .pcx graphic to use instead.

Just replace the old one with the new. ( I posted waaaayyyy back about someone doing this.)

For the record, though, I still use the original.:p

Danny,

You mind if I use your Fasces as an OPTION in the Fascist Patch?

I'll still have the Swastika included of course, but for those people with incredibly thin skins, I can include the Fasces as an option.

After all, the Fascist Patch is all about giving people choices, not denying them options.

Sure, Wolf, no prob.[pimp]

Since there is a possibility that negotiations between to civilisations that is related. As I can remember it’s easier to negotiate deals with civ that is near you. As the Americans it was easier to get a deal with Aztecs than the Egyptians. I have not seen this before, but if this was possible then the opportunity to get one civ city to assimilate. Remember that in Netherlands during WWII many of the citizens were a member of a Nazi organisation. But this should only be possible with a civ that is near culturally. The Ukraine’s where seeing the Nazi as liberators but since they were not culturally equal, they where looked upon as slaves. This was not the case with the Western European occupied people. So if this was tweaked in it wood be a good addition.

can some one post the original Espionage pic. I accidently deleated the fascist patch when I installed the fundamentalism patch but I still have that swasticka(I don't think i spelled that right) pic in the game for the Espionage tech.

Achiles,

If you have the Civ3 CD, you have all the original images!

So I didn't really like my first go at the fasces icon.

So I started from scratch and greatly improved it.

So use it instead of the old dumb one. Promise it's good.

Originally posted by VoodooAce
I think Giorgicus said it best.

That site is disgusting.

Evil. Just by what it represents, fascism is the bane of freedom and good.

Anyone that disagrees with that, or says 'but hitler did some good things. he built roads and stuff' is also probably quite evil, whether they realize it or not.

But I can't wait to play it......

One note: Fascism was a complete failure as a form of government. Why can be debated, but the fact is they got their @$$es gloriously whooped 60 years ago.

Gloriously whooped!!!!


Get a hold on yourself, man!
It's only a game, put that shotgun down!:lol:

Millions of people killed...Glorious. Yeah right....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Viridovix
I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

Oh, please.

Fascism is just so insignificant that because of it there are a couple of forward deployed Nimitz-class carriers over in the middle east oceans, enough bomb fragments scattered across the Afghani countryside to supply the residents with a new form of currency, and some several thousand American civilians dead.

Fascism is so insignificant that the whole geography of Europe has been displaced and rearranged so many times, there are still burned-out tanks ornamenting the countryside. It's so unimportant that hundreds upon thousands - perhaps millions? - of Semite people still bristle at words "Nazi," "Hitler," or even "Germany" depending upon how well-indoctrinated they are to holocaust history and history-revisionism. In fact, we could just forget about fascism, except that any time that WWII or any of its implications are discussed - and this is pretty much the entire Industrial Revolution, the science that makes it possible for you to whine about that patch, and the economic power that catapulted America to the pivotal position we've enjoyed in the world's theatre for the past 80 years or so - we are reminded of it. At least until self-indulgent revisionists start obfuscating it because it was evil, offensive, sickening and real. Just the way that the slaughter of the entire culture of the American natives is obscured by the stylized mantle of progress.

It is absurd to say that fascism is insignificant, and it is just this sort of ignorant, myopic, touchy-feely utopian fearfulness that makes a hypocrite of anyone who privately aspires for world domination in a game, only to sneer at the reality of his own history because it does not suit him to accept it.

Looking history in the eye for what it is does not equate to the endorsement of the inevitability of atrocities that have occurred in the name of progress, conquest and sheer madness. It only means that we possess the wherewithal to see ourselves for what we are.

In order to make people like this happy, we'd need a patch for a government style called the People's Republic of Berkeley where the only piece of land that can possibly mean anything to anyone is the front steps of the government building where you picket whenever anyone says anything in regards to anything. I'm sure that this would be an accurate reflection of history. Maybe we could replace the little wheat-stalk resources with granola, while we're at it. Every style of government has committed atrocities, and democracy is only better because it is so inefficient that no one can make insane unilateral decisions that result in the eradication its own citizenry. So, if you find evil governments too awful to play, why not just make a custom map that has a little island in the middle of the map like Tristan de Cuna where everyone eats nuts and berries and lives in mud huts.

Christ on a crutch, people.

Regards,

H. Chase

In general i agree with your analysis as the upgrades are just a bit too much for fascists-mod in the game, anyhow i have some comments left you may find interesting.

Originally posted by Kino

For those reasons, I think the Fascism mod is a bit unbalanced. Here's how I would balance it:

1) Corruption Level goes up to "Problematic." This puts it on par with Monarchy; more corrupt than Democracy or Republic, but less corrupt than Despotism or Communism.

2) Assimilation Chance goes down to 2%. This reflects the difficult that a highly Nationalistic government has with foreigners. This is worse than Democracy or Communism, on par with Republic and Monarchy, and better than Despotism.

3) No Steal Technology Immunity. Fascist technology can be stolen just like any others.

4) Modified Resistance Ratings. Fascists are less resistant to Despotism or Monarchy governments, because they are similar in outlook to extreme nationalism. They are no more or less resistant to Democratic or Republican conquerers. They are more resistant to Anarchy and Communism, but at a rating of 5 (on par with other resistant governments), not at the previous level of 10.

How does this match up? In the rules of the game, Fascism becomes a sort of modern Monarchy (with everyone putting their belief in a nation, not a king). Corruption and Unit Support on equal to Monarchy, but Fascism can use more units as Military Police to enforce happiness. Also unlike Monarchy, Fascism allows the Standard Trade Bonus. This is balanced out by the fact that you must be much further along in scientific development to use Fascism.

If you want to use this modified form of Fascism I just described, download the mod below instead of the other mod. It is a slightly altered version of Steven Strayer's mod with the changes I mention here. [/B]

#1
Corruption didn't plague fascist-germany as their people did support the system at a very high percentage. Only after loosing battle of 'Stalingrad' the mood partially changed. Possibly to gain a certain *golden age* or two quite after changing goverment would adopt this into the gameplay.

#2
Agreed mostly, as the fascists fought mostly for gaining 'Lebensraum'...areas to settle their very own people and not to overtake enemy cities. I don't know if it is possible to half a conquered cities population for fascists to take concern on fleeing the threat of fascism warmachine.

#3
Agreed, even if the political resistance nearly ended, there has been enough spying and other things in fascist states during ww2 that worked quite properly.

#4
However i would like to keep Fundamentalism as a natural upgrade to Fascism, whose intentions generally allow such a theory. Monarchy as an downgrade alternate, including less resistance to both Monarchy and Fundamentalism. Communism as totally comparing system with the highest resistence level, next lower levels for Democracy, Anarchy, Republican, Despotism.


-#
As for the trade bonus, well i'm not really intimate how it could be fixed, but fascists had mostly traded only with minor states or also fascist or monarchy/fundamentalist like nations. Probably there is a chance to sort trade the way as mentioned above in #4.

Well, hope my 5 cents (european of course ;) ) could be usefull for another upgrade as i really do not agree with 'political correctness' changing a game's look, whose aim is to cover and allow to re-play lifetimes in history.

R*

The Fascist Patch has been rereleased to version 1.3 with the change that Bismarck is removed, and Hitler has been added as the new head of state.

This doesn't mean YOU will be Hitler unless you want to be, now you can face against Hitler in the Fascist Patch and crush them if you so desire!

I was very disturbed by comments I read in this thread suggesting that this be removed. Now as you can probably see by my nick, I am in no way pro-fascist myself, in fact I am very anti-fascist. However, who cares if this is trying to support the concept of fascism, who cares if it is racist or whatnot? It's got some warnings, it would be undemocratic to say that alternative views aren't welcome. If this is how this guy sees fascism working, then fine, any that agree can download the MOD. If you disagree, make your own or wait for another. I personally will make my own version, as soon as I figure out how. Along with my own version of socialism and communism. Which, I should mention many of you will see as wrong.

On my own veiws on fascism, it should be seen running much like the communism that's already in Civ 3. After all, it's modeled after Red China and the USSR, who were never really socialist or communist, but if you ask me, they were a form of fascism.

But point is, don't get all uptight by this guy offering his mod as he did. He was just making an offer. You don't have to download it. And you can still get other fascist mods that aren't pro fascism.

Something that Ironfang missed in his concise round-up of the massacres in history was the modernization of Russia. He referred to Stalinization in the 1950s when I think he meant what happened beginning with the first Five Year Plan in 1928.

Stalin deliberately starved millions in the Ukraine, exercised genocide against a class of people, peasants (supposedly kulaks) and the Great Purges of 1936 saw even city populations decimated.

People are wrong to think that Fascism killed the greatest number of people. Without including the casualties of WWII (Red Alert gives some insight as to the role of communism without fascism) Stalin killed far more than Hitler.

Around 7million Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals were killed by the Nazis yet Stalin starved far more (approx. 20mill I think).

Communism is the most disgusting form of government, and including Fascism is a far lesser evil than glorifying the military capabilities of Communism.

and yes, it is a game

I just D/L'ed the mod. The website looks nice but I wish there were a few more pictures of Musolini or Hirahito (Japan could've been considered a fundy or a fascist...) Because hitler wasn't the only fascist...

All this philosophical debate and fiery tirades over a video game, I love it. And I'll tell you why I love it, because the truth is the historical truth not the politically truth which is fed to young who dont know better. I hope they havent been brainwashed and if they dont believe us (the historically correct) just look it up! That's right open a book. Dont be afraid that you might be wrong, no one goes through life without making a mistake. Heres one big lie, George Bush (by the way I like George Bush) said that the afghans hate our freedom, our way of life. Thats 100% bullshi!t. The afghans and most of the middle east hate OUR MILITARY HELP AND SUPPORT OF ISREAL!! Afhans could give less of a crap how we live our lives they just get pissed when the Isrealites are using america weapons or we bomb a country like iraq or other middle eastern countries and then demand "peace in the middle east". We can supply weapons without using them and our hands are clean?

On another note, when I went into the website I loved it, and I sang along with the music. Does that make me a facist? And if I am racist? Does that mean I should die or that my opinion doesnt matter? For all the freedom of America i think that Mel Gisbon said it best in the patriot, "why should I trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants a mile away"? When most of america hated native americans, there was the trail of tears, when slavery existed the people who fought for slave's freedom in the North hated blacks as well. Abraham Lincoln (included in the game) was extremely racist, and had a dream for a "lily white america", maybe I should play the americans eh? Old Abe was killed before he could start the "back to africa movement" he had been planning. But PCedness says he was a father figure and the best leader ever. Basically the majority no matter how wrong is always right in a democracy, ask any native american. Now the tide has turned in pc crap and white guilt trips. I am proud to be white and of german hertiage and odds are at least half of the white people in this country have some german in them. I didnt have any part in slavery or Nazis germany so dont put it on me. If you think Im a facist I dont care. There are plenty of all black groups who look out for only BLACKS and negro college funds, the back panthers (think black nazis) and the Naacp but omg if it was all white-facists facists facists(how about majority college fund). So if you all hate facism think of this...wouldnt it be great if YOU were one type of person the government loved and treasured, not betrayed by the politicians for affirmative action, not trying to make everyone equal (your SKILL not color determines your worth-not everyone is as skilled as others). In America today things have to be black and white not grey. Hitler DID do some good things, he ended unemployment in 3 years and there was even a labor shortage. Mind you, germany had the HIGHEST unemployment rate in the WORLD (during a world depression). Hitler was able to cut through the bs and get stuff done. Genoside? America only cares when its the type of people getting killed, in South africa white people are being killed but nooo their white and "former repressers" (all of them-including the kids) and its not pc to stick up for white people. ALso in South africa blacks are killing differents tribes of black people, in the hundreds of thousands. Is africa important to us as compared to say Europe? no not really. Pol pot killed millions of asians under his rule but hey we dont care. Am I glorifying Hitler? No Hitler caused millions of my fellow germans, people I consider relatives, to die, and for that I will never forget nor forgive. I want the truth, can you handle the truth? Read my post and try not to become all irrational and emotional, if you think im wrong use logic not morality or "because" answers. I also dont want your feelings. Prove me wrong with facts not "your a mean bad person". I see the truth and its about time you did too.

*whew*

Talk about thin skins...

Some of the sick Nazi sympathizers really get bitter when you tell them what an evil guy Adolf was, how poorly their government of choice worked (history don't lie, my brothers), and how sick you believe somebody has to be to be a Nazi sympathizer.

Deal with it.

I'm not arguing against the patch. It's a game and fascism belongs right there with Communism and despotism in the game.

My prob is with those in this forum that are obviously pro-Nazi. Wake up and smell the cyanide, baby! All the talk about fascism not being a failure as a government are mistaken. Otherwise, don't you think there might still be at least one fascist nation left?


BTW, I'm white, of German ancestory, and very much an avid, if amateur, history buff. I definitely know my WWII. At least I know enough to know that these guys were evil incarnate.

And who cares who killed the most, or who was more evil? Hitler killed more than Osama. They all suck, baby! Just because I compare Osama Bin Laden to, say, Fidel Castro doesn't make Fidel a good guy. He's just not as bad a guy as Osama. Right?

Compare Charles Manson to OJ Simpson, and OJ looks pretty good. But OJ isn't a good guy.

Comparing Hitler to Stalin does not make Hitler a good guy. They definitely belong in the same group! Bad human beings that deserved far worse deaths than they got.

BTW, I'm actually so white and blonde that, while living in Portland, Oregon about 6 years ago, I was recruited by a guy that I thought was my friend (we worked together in a bar) to join a neo-nazi group.

Dude and his fat girlfriend were very sick. Tapes of Randy Weaver speaking to all his sick, ignorant little soldiers. Posters. Ruby Ridge and Waco. Sick stuff, man.

He got about 30 seconds into his pitch when I let him know how wrong he had judged me!!!! :mad:

BTW, Waco? Didn't they open up on the feds first. I mean before they set their own compound on fire?!?! :crazyeyes 'Nuf said!

Chuckster:

Boy, it takes some patience and a bit of willpower to get through your mildly white supremacist blather, but having done so, I note that you say nothing about the merits of the Fascist Patch.

Most people here have not advocated suppression of speech; we are debating the pros & cons of the Fascist Patch, and questioning the motives of its creator.

I am sure there are plenty of skinhead/randy weaver/militia websites where your views are better expressed. I suggest we stick to Civ here.

I am surprised and appalled by some of the lack of information on this page about the German Nazi government. I don't pretend to know it all but some things need to be cleared up.

Hitler's so called economic progression was very real but only occured due to the fact of his military buildup. Every job he made was taken from another, mostly jewish business men. He grabed these factories through the Nuremburg Laws created for Jewish/Duestch segregation. So he was no genius and did no good, he simply created good in the wake of what he planned to commit, which was atrocious. Further more he accomplished this great production by under paying even his german workers, just creating a lot of low paying jobs.

By 1938 he had made significant progress in the rebuilding of the German homeland. Signs of the First World War, which were still present in the mid 1930's, were no where to be seen. Now to the surprise of many not all of germany was Nazi, infact the Nazi government was only actually a party. Infact it is estimated by 1939 only 70% of the population in german homeland (area sovreign to germany before 1938) was Nazi. Others accepted the government, simply due to circumstance. So they were not all reaching and not everyone was absolute in their loyalty. Tapes of huge rally's and of grand cheering during his speeches is attributed to patriotism in germany, hitlers inate ability to minipulate crowds (its been scientifically proven), and later response to the war effort. I would never say it was attributed to their love of a fascist government.

Through minipulation, half truths, and vieled threats Germany expanded their territory from 1938 - 1941. They aquired "Rhine Land", Eastern European States, and areas of the Balken area through diplomatic pressure. When these areas were mobilized with troops ethnic or religious minorities were gathered for transport to the "proper zones". Anti Nazi activists were shot or imprisoned and a levy of people in these states was enacted for military service.

By 1943 the Jewish people had been herded into Ghetto's, atrocities had already taken place in Latvia, Poland, Austria, and many of the Balken States, and preperations were beginning for the concentration camps. Without a doubt Hitler and his fascist government were absolute in their horror and should never be, in my opinion, praised or even condoned. Their behaviour as a government was completly contrary to established International Law established properly by 1954.

I feel I can safely say that Fascist governmetns are only tolerated by a poverty stricken or highly religious people. The greater their economic stance and comfort of life increases the more then become less willing to be subdued.

Oh, come on, Scipio. We all know that the Holocaust never even happened, man! It's all just a conspiracy by the jews and communists. That genius historian in England said so! :rolleyes:


Sorry, just figured I'd beat some the nazis to the punch. :lol:

Well, Giorgicus, I knew you couldnt reply with any intellectual insight...instead we got a new "internet censor" who says I should go to some white supremist website. I think you should play the facist patch as Hitler so you can CENSOR anyone's belief that varies from yours(at least in your imaginary world). You keep proving yourself more stupid and more pro-facist with every reply. Im guessing your around 12, ever since I read you talk about having a sickness in the pit of your little baby tummy when you saw Hitler on the website-even though a second ago on the site you were warned about possibly offensive material-which at least 5 threads here have asked you why you ignored the warning. Instead of saying "hey im wrong" you start whining about how evil Hitler is and that no one should play the patch or else their "evil". As you can see from all the posts in favor of the facist patch, alot of people are "evil" arent they?

Again, white people sticking together is white supremecy? You poor politically correct sheep, it must hard going with the herd all the time. Well maybe not, maybe its easier and thats why you do it-being so AFRAID of standing out.

Voodoo-of course their are some crazy whitist speakers out there, just like their are crazy examples of other groups. Finding one or a couple examples of a splinter group of people does not make the whole group absurd or wrong. There are many splinter factions of christianity that may be considered fanatical, does that mean you should start disliking all of christianity? Also again I'm not a nazis (no matter how some of the little kids in here would like to label people who go against you as that) and I have no idea who that speaker is you mentitioned.

On a civ3 note, I cant wait until the official patch is released, hopefully they have been doing something far reaching in the past month since civ3 was released. (multipllllllllayyyyer!) I dont think they'll make a patch with multiplayer but i can still hope lol (it'll probably be in an add-on they can charge money for).


"The wolf is not afraid of the number of the sheep"

Let's see if I've got this right, Chuckster:

You won't forgive Hitler because he "caused millions of my fellow germans, people I consider relatives, to die," but you'll praise him for ending unemployment and "was able to cut through the bs and get stuff done"?

If I wasn't so stunned by your lapse of logic and decency -- killing 6 million Jews is hardly an example of "getting things done" -- I'd say something nasty.

I'm with Giorgicus on this -- I'm sure a google search of "skinhead" would turn up some other sites more receptive to your views. With any luck, the sheer number of them might crash your PC.

As for the patch ... I've used it on Civ2 and liked being able to crush Nazi barbs. The website leaves me creeped out, which might be the point.

Chuckster:

First of all, I know this is a long thread to review, but you misattribute a quote to me. I never said anything about sickness. That was someone else.

Nor have I advocated censorship or removal of any posts. To the contrary, I have only advocated free and open debate of the merits of the fascist patch. You certainly have a right to be ignorant, I only ask that you read my posts before you thoughtlessly flame away.

Debating the merits of a website and its patch does not amount to censorship. Censorship is when a government exercises prior restraint on individual speech or expression based on its content. Debating the merits of a potentially hate-oriented website, and its patch, in a free and open forum, is the antithesis of censorship. When you get a chance, look up "irony" in the dictionary.

I have not told you (or anyone else) to do anything here. In my last post, I stated that "there are plenty of skinhead/randy weaver/militia websites where your views are better expressed. I suggest we stick to Civ here." My suggestion to you (not even a demand) is a far cry from the "censorship" which you so easily misattribute to me.

While you are free to express your stream-of-consciousness (albeit off topic) views, I will never, never apologize for exposing the ignorance of you and your skinhead-sympathyzing ilk. As I quoted Justice Brandeis before, "sunlight is the best disinfectant."

I find it funny that some people say how magnificent a Facist government is when they have yet to ever be subjected to ones rule. I suggest you move to Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/or any other number of the few Fascist governments left and see how much you like. Evil does not neccesarily come from Fascism but it is undoubtably a freedom suppressing government. I find it interesting someone so caught up in "internet censorship" would be willing to be placed under a governemnt that can stone or kill a person for speaking out of "order". I garuntee you wanna speak your mind a Fascist government is the last place you want to be.

How many idiots can this world shelter? and how many psycho's can be born? anyone that refers themselves as a "wolf" should at least be beaten wiht sometype of blunt object. But until I can hunt those people down I'll be happy with simply ousting them with words. Cause hey I can't speak monosolavickly enough for you to understand me supremecist *****.

Sorry everyone else but there's nothing I hate more then a Neo Nazi. To many of our father's died destroying their legacy in Germany for them to be tolerated by me.

Scipio Africanu , none of the countries you mentioned are fasist. No such goverment exist in the world anymore.

Iraq is sort of 'fundamentalist dictatorship' where Saddam rules as total dictator seemingly under some pretence of religion (he has manipulated to people to believe that he's fighting infidel american's and that USA is behind all country's troubles).

Iran is 'fundamentalist' where religion plays huge role in goverments policies and decicion making.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship, where military has overtrown elected goverment.

If those would be fasist, then half of the world would be as well.

I dont understand why people get exited over this mod. There are plenty of strategy games that allow you to play as nazi germany and attemt to fullfill Hitler's dream of world domination and probably some who act shocked here probably have played some of em. They are just game's to be played for fun.

I dont understand this cencor bull**** either. Yes, fasists regime did many horrible things but whole history of humanity (even to present day unfortunately) is full of similiar acts that are at least as brutal as or even more brutal and horrible than nazi germany's.

Oh come on guys, are we going to discuss the political correctness of game MOD's? Why don't we all just rip on Wolfenstein 3D and Return To Castle Wolfenstein for their displaying of the swastika?

Besides, we use many things today that were developed by the Nazis (jet engines, rockets, the Volksvagen)

Besides, I like this MOD. Well on Civ 2 that is. Sort of difficult to install it on Civ 3 but yeah. Though I'm not sure fascism should have the swastika as it's picture but perhaps have something symbolizing fierce loyalty to a leader or something like that. :P

Don't take things so seriously and don't be always in Political Correctness mode! You'll be happier that way. ;)

well, those may not be fascist governments but they still do exist. Israel has recently been pretty much that since Sharon got elected. Zaire (I'm pretty sure it was Zaire, formally the Democratic Republic of Congo, formally Zaire) has been recently overthrown with US help and a fascist took over. But 10 years ago Chile's Pinochet government was still in power (originally helped to come into power with the help of the US as well). Both of these had just elected democratically leaders that were civil rights minded, and called themselves "socialist". And then if you look at China, it's not really socialist or communist, some refer to it as state capitalism or whatnot, I personally call it fascism. The US itself keeps looking like it will go to qualify for fascism, but those bills that would do so don't pass through both houses. (recently the ACLU was concerned about a bill that would allow for phone-tapping and e-mail reading without reason in which any illegal activity could be prosecuted and dissent could also be recorded; the FBI had a huge file on Einstein for his leanings; the bill passed through the senate in a day, but to my knowledge still hasn't passed through the house).

Giorgicus, okay, I'm not one to name people directly, but since you obviously are WAY off track here, please go back to my website and READ THE HOMEPAGE DISCLAIMER.

If you can't read the homepage, please stop talking your nonsense.

Frankly, your "hidden motives of the author", and "hate oriented website" crap really has to go, and I'm putting an end to your slander here and now.

Do you think I have hidden motives to turn everyone in the world to Fascists by offering a GAME PATCH that offers the Fascist Government?

If you think that, then please start flaming Sid Meier for having "hidden motives" of turning everyone Communist by putting communism in the game... oh wait, Communism is okay with you, but Fascism isn't... that's really consistent.

Furthermore, the Fascist Patch website being refered to as a "hate" page. Please, for the love of God tell me EXACTLY what is hateful on that page?!?!?! Yes there are Swastikas, yes there is Hitler's image... yes there is the Horst Wessel Leid. It pretty much ends there... no messages of hate, no slander, nothing telling anybody to do anything other than play Civ2/Civ3.

Have you campaigned to justify the "hidden intent" of the History Channel, Id software, or Tom Hanks for starring in Saving Private Ryan? All of the above have images of the Third Reich and Swastikas aplenty on them too... so I hope you're just as disdainful of them as you are of my own "hidden motives".

For the record, as of this moment. I am typing to you from Saudi Arabia, as my happy little behind is serving your country in Operation Enduring Freedom, so you have the right to go about slandering me with nonsensical garbage about "hidden motives" and "hate" oriented websites.

Please cease and desist your slander... and NEXT TIME... read the freakin' first page.

It's a game... lighten up... I'm not converting the world to Fascism despite your looney ideas.

Fascism has no connection to Nazism.
Nazism is Racist Government that uses Terror and Fasicm to continue its ways.
The best example of Fascism is Fasicst Italy, FASCISM HAS NO FRIGGIN CONNECTION TO THE HOLOCAUST OR RACISM
If you can include despotism or monarchy in the game, fasicm is not less politically correct.
just dont friggin use the nazi's symbol, use the symbol of fascist italy.

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were BOTH Fascist Regimes... just like saying modern day US and UK are both "Democracies", even though technically one is a republic and one is socialist.

You say Tomato, I say Tomato... both were Totalitarian regimes that were radically extreme nationalist nations.

To say one is Fascist and not the other is like the pot calling the kettle black... they're both one and the same.

Severity of attrocities commited are not necessarily a reflection on the form of government as much as the policies directed by specific people (ie: Hitler and co). Simply because Hitler commited more attrocities than Mussolini does not make Nazi Germany less Fascist than Italy, any more than an action in England makes the US less a democracy.

As for symbols, I used what is obviously more notoriously associated with Fascists... the Swastika... if you prefer the Fasces, it is included in the Fascist Patch as an option. Please download the latest version and read the install instructions.

People around here do read I hope... seems a lot of people would save a lot of trouble if they read what is out there!!!

(Install instructions, website warnings, etc, etc)

The Fasce is a symbol of fascism, while the swastika is not.
The italian fasicsm was born way before the german fascism by the way, and the nazi regime was not as pure fascist as the italian was, it included many other things.
And you can say that two countries are democractic but one is more than the other, USA is more democratic than Israel for example, both democratic, one is purely democractic while the other is also social.

Whinging about facism and saying that it shouldnt be in a game is basically the same as parents whinging about (and sueing in some cases) games companies creating violent games that 'cause' their children to kill people.

I think its sad

Personal freedom is a good thing to have.
You have the choice to do what you want, even if you choices have consequences.

If parents think that violent computer games influence their children, why dont they enforcer (hehe) their beliefs so that their children dont play the games. You cant whinge about something that you let your children do.

Same with a facism government in Civ. If you dont wanna use it, then dont. Dont criticise people because of what they choose to do or use.

History is something that we cant change. And you cant abolish something from history because you dont think its "politically correct". Your "virtual history" is just that, so if you dont want facism, you dont have to have it, but if you do want it, then you can.


*wipes forehead*

Ok if that made any sense to anyone, then my mission is accomplished :)



Enforcer

On Italy, it was racist too, just not as extreme as Germany. The idea behind the italian fascism was to recreate the roman empire. There was a belief that italians were superior. Yet, they didn't make the superiority law per se. They didn't kill minorities, and there were some in powerful positions still. But there still was a racism which was strongly tied with nationalism.

I never liked Hitler any more than you do and I find the holocaust to be terrible event but history is just history. You don't change it. If you want to censor history, you're doing just like what Hitler did. Remember those book burning events they use to hold? It's the same.

If you can't stand the mod, just don't play it. And if you can't stand the swastika, do what he said, replace it with the fasces when you install the mod

I didnt say fascism should not be in the game, I just said nazi germany and the swastika does NOT symbol fascism even if they were half fascist.
About "racist" italy:
Every nation thinks it is the best, Every man thinks he is better than others, consious or sub-concious you think you are better than others.
Does that make everyone racist? Maybe. Can you compare it to what hitler did? Gimm'e a break

Of course Nazi Germany was a fascist country. And of course it looked different from Italy.
Fascism is a strongly nationalist ideology, so the focus on national (also racial/ethnic/cultural) identity leads to much bigger differences between two fascist countries than between two modern capitalist countries with shared music, TV, movies, etc.
But they are still both fascist.
I think Nazi Germany should be the model forr fascism in CIV3 simply because it's the "best" known example for it.
Communism is also modeled after Stalisnism although that's wasn't really that what Marx for example thought about.
But as you have to choose one, you pick best known.

Considering political correctness: Who doesn't like it, doesn't have to play it. I also think the page is "a little" pro-fascist (precisely pro-nazi), in Germany it's even illegal to watch it (sh*t..committed a crime...). But as much as I hate fasicsm, I think it belongs into the game, simply because it exists and was/is a part of civilization (or something trying to destroy it...).

Btw, if you just play your fav form of government, only despots might start a new game...

Okay, I've been reading the arguements that have been coming from the dozens and dozens of camps in this whole discussion on Fascism and such, so here I am. I know I'm a newbie in these here forums, yada yada, etc., but whatever. My forum status has nothing to do with my intelligence. So...

I have nothing against the patch itself. I think it was made well and displays modern history, which we should all understand. If we don't, history will repeat itself. The only problem I have with the patch is the idea that "Fascism" and "Nazism" being portrayed as the same thing.

The Nazi party used a form of Fascism as a sort of piggy-back towards totalitarianism. Saying Nazi Germany IS fascism would be like saying Soviet Russia IS communism. I'm going to argue that Stalin was no more a communist than Hitler was a fascist, which I believe I am the only one that has brought this up unless I missed something through all of that reading. Now that I read more, Wolfshanze hit it right on the money saying both were totalitarians (BTW, thanks for making the patch).

Now, Socialism is state ownership and control of property, while Capitalism is private ownership and control of property. Those are givens. Democracies and Republics are more inclined towards Capitalism, while Communism would be Socialistic. Now, where does Fascism fall? Right in the middle of this. Fascism allows private property, but the state controls it. Nazism had both at one time, so in a sense, it was fascist. Keyword is "was". Later on, it restricted private ownership, so in a way, it was turning Socialist. That didn't stop Hitler from trying to exterminate the socialists and communists, though.

I wouldn't say Mussolini had racist or genocidal intent, but that's just turns into a "what if" question. Italy, or Rome, whatever you want to consider it, always had strong nationalism. Back in the ancient times, killing off Carthaginians meant destroying the civilization to ensure Roman dominance. Where was "race"? I argue that they never though much of race, seeing as how ancient Rome was always eager to accept other countries to expand their empire. I believe if Mussolini wanted to recreate the glory of Rome, genocide wouldn't be the real answer. Hitler thought otherwise.

Franco... Well, would he really be racist or genocidal? Spain has expanded so much in the course of history that "pulling a Hitler" would seem odd, as a significant portion of the world traces back to Spain anyway. All he did was crush opposition, which is what most fascist or communist rulers do anyway.

Now to Hitler. He didn't have blonde hair or blue eyes, so I don't know where THAT idea came from. He didn't create the Nazi party, but joined and became their leader. He wasn't even German. He was a guy from Austria that wanted to be an artist. Simply put, the guy is, was, and always will be crazy. A pretty idealogical guy for someone who didn't even have the credentials for his own views. It would be like, for example, an armless man wanting to mass exterminate all of the armless people of the world. Hitler was just insane, and most of you will agree.

There is a distinct difference between "nationalism" and "racism". I find it strange to pair the two, but it often is. This is mainly due to the impact of Nazism in the world. If I believed in "what ifs", I'd say that nationalism and racism would never be considered the same by many if Nazism never surfaced. And probably Fascism would never be considered the same as Nazism.

For me, the Fascist patch seemed more like a Nazism patch. Accordingly, I added the patch to my game (the form of government only) and renamed it "Nazism". The reason for this is because I believe that Nazism was nothing more than a totalitarian system. But that would mean I'll have to find a way to make Fascism fit into the equation. In my "Governments Patch" (WARNING: Don't download and install it. It sucks. Needs a lot of work.), Fascism was basically the same as the fascism in the Fascist patch, with the exception of resistance modifiers and assimilation. Since the Fascist patch's Fascism is basically the same as my version's Fascism, I'll need to work on differentiating them. It probably won't work, but a little research helps a bit...

I'm not a supporter of Fascism, Nazism, or Communism. I'm both a history buff and basically a Republican in my ideas. That doesn't mean I want the things I hate missing from a game like Civilization III that does a "rewrite history" theme. I want historically accurate references and such in my games. That doesn't mean I want things like America only beginning in the late 1700s or anything. It just means I want some kind of historical backing in my games. History makes my games more enjoyable. Making it out like the Nazism never existed in history seems out of place to me. Even if I do hate it, I want to know that it's there to at least crush. It gets tedious when I have to crush Democrats and Communists over and over again...

Oh, and my ancestory is split in two. One side comes from Austria while the other comes from the Philippines. Therefore, my view on "race" is simple. I don't believe in "race" diversity, and I believe that as time goes by, "race" won't be as "clear cut" as the politically correct people will want it to be. People are people, so why should it be that you and I should get along so awfully? Sorry, Depeche Mode stuck in me brain.

Summary:

* Nazism WAS a fascist movement, but soon became totalitarian. (arguement)

* Hitler is a psycho. (fact)

* Nationalism and racism are not the same. (arguement)

* Fascism and Nazism are different, though almost resemble each other, much like Marxism, Socialism, and Communism differ, although almost alike. (arguement)

* Lesser animals are tasty and money rules! (unimportant opinion, so ignore)

* Neo-Nazi's are just like Hitler: a lot aren't blonde, a lot aren't German, and a lot are psycho. (arguement, opinion)

* Hate groups suck! (opinion)

* Political correctness sucks! (opinion)

* Always relish in the history of the world: it's a model for the future. (statement)

And that's the end of my rant.

Why do you say Nazism WAS a fascist movement and THEN turned totalitarian???
Fascism is clearly a totalitarian ideology.

Agreed on Hate Groups and pc :goodjob:

MercuryCrusader, I pretty much agree with most of what your saying, and agree with your points (on Hitler, Political Correctness, etc, etc).

As for Fascism vs Nazism, I know that "technically" there is a differance in terms, but in "reality" there is little that seperates them, both are certainly totalitarian, and certainly in gameplay of Civ3, there is NO DIFFERANCE, hence the Fascist Patch covers both under one.

Which brings another point... all these people adding in 3, 4, 5 or more new governments must be insane... though there are lots of differant types of governments in the world, as far as Civ3 goes, it is very difficult to have more than say 3 differant types of governments at any point in the game before the gameplay differance essentially disappears. The idea to add a ton of governments is nice, but the reality of Civ3 begs to differ the need for so many. Certainly trying to "split hairs" between Fascism and Nazism is pointless in Civ3 terms... hell, it's damn near impossible to define the differance in the real world.

Which brings one back to the original topic. There really isn't a differance between the two, and trying to say there is seems to just be pointless. If Germany wasn't Fascist, who really is? What is Fascism? If it's some idea that has never really existed, does it even merit saying it exists at all? Instead of Germany at one point being Fascist and moving away from it, I say quite the opposite, Germany itself defined what it was to be Fascist... much the same way Stalin defined what it was to be Communist... which of course brings us to another point...

We all know Communism as defined by Marx is nothing like Stalinist Russia... but when has there ever been in the history of mankind a "true Communist" nation? Simply put... NEVER. There never will be either, because "true Communism" is a pipe dream and can't ever be realized by the very nature of man... so what the hell is the point in trying to make a "true Communist" government in Civ3, when no such form can exist in nature? Ergo, I propose that the very definition of Communism in this world (in any real sense) was defined by Stalin, much the same as Fascism was defined by Hitler.

So, by it's very nature of how man is, and what we HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THE COURSE OF CIVILIZATION... Communism in the game should be and is modeled on Stalinist Russia, as there cannot be any "true Communism"... Fascism should and is modeled on Nazi Germany, for it truely is Hitler who defined what is commonly refered to as Fascism.

You could continue this onwards towards other types of governments... the United States is clearly a Republic, but is often refered to as a Democracy, and is clearly modeled as one in Civ3. So why can't Nazi Germany be labeled "Fascist" if the US is labeled a "Democracy", and Stalinist Russia is labeled "Communist"?

Finally, would somebody please answer me this:
Why is the Civilization Fascist Website labeled "Pro-Fascist", "Pro-Nazi" or "Hate" oriented... I'd like one solid answer instead of all the slander and insinuations.

I assume anyone who goes there can read... if you have the intelligence enough to read, and the inclination to label other people's work, I should hope you can comprehend the CLEAR warnings of the sites content and CLEAR statements that the site is NOT pro-Fascist, pro-Hate or anything of the nature... there is NOT one single message stating hate, NOT one single message saying "go be a fascist", and the site CLEARLY does not encourage anyone to do anything other than play Civ3. Does it contain sites and sounds of the Third Reich... yes... is it "in your face"... yes... did I make it because I hate political correctness... yes... but sorry to bust all your politically correct "lets point fingers and accuse others of being this or that" mindsets... hate to let you all down, but the site supports a patch for a game... nothing else... I'm not converting the world to Fascism... sorry to burst your bubbles... but it's not me.

Wanna go bash real Fascists, go to a real Fascist website and see the differance... I garauntee you, the differance is HUGE.

Question: What did Nazis and Fascists do that Communist or americans didn't do worse?

ok it sems we have some rather less than educated types hanging around this thread, i just have one question.

If you asked everyone in the world to write down their symbol for NIKE it would be the same, if you asked everyone to write down their symbol for Coco Cola it would be the same, and if you asked everybody to write their symbol for fascism, it would be the same.

So the guy or guys saying nazi and their symbol don't represent facism, then they would be one of the few on the whole planet that think that.

Originally posted by pravda
So the guy or guys saying nazi and their symbol don't represent facism, then they would be one of the few on the whole planet that think that.

duh! the most ppl accept the american propaganda as the Truth.... and if a country tries to stand up and fight they make up some stupid reason and start to bomb it....

but please lets not start to talk about politics or they gonna censore this politacally incorrect thread

:midfinger oops did i do that?

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Frankly, your "hidden motives of the author", and "hate oriented website" crap really has to go, and I'm putting an end to your slander here and now. ...


Whoa, Wolf, calm down. I didn't use those words, and I'm not questioning your motives. I was disturbed that your site caused other posters to burst out into song because they thought you were some sort of comrade in arms.

I will repeat that the website is creepy, but I'll clarify. It's creepy in the way that color video of Hitler (as seen on the History Channel and elsewhere) is way creepy. To see him in color is to imagine him as a flesh-and-blood individual, and it's overwhelming to think that one person did so much evil ....

But I digress. I have seen the disclaimer on your site, and I didn't mean in my earlier post to imply that you endorse fascist views. (If you interpreted it that way, I apologize). The art could be your way of trying to scare us off from the idea. Or it's an attempt to show a piece of history. Whichever, I'm not keen on hanging out in a place where the swastika is so prominent. I do, however, like your Civ2 patch, especially some of the new units that aren't in the regular game.

Good luck to you in Saudi. I've had buddies serve over there, and I appreciate the work you're doing over there.

Well, to answer Alturiak's question is "nothing". Communists literally did the exact same thing the Nazis did, only on a larger scale. Does that mean one is not as bad as the other? No. Killing the masses is still killing the masses. Numbers differ, but it's all the same.

Hitro, I made that statement because I believe that there is a distinct difference between a "Fascist" government and just a "Totalitarian" rule, simply in policies. It's like calling your country "Communist", but having a Capitalist system of trade and commerce, such as "Communist" China. But yeah, I worded that statement all wrong. Sorry.

Wolfshanze, you bring up a very good point. Since "true Communism" was never achieved, I'm going to argue that "true Fascism" can be held to that same account. Basically, any government that is run by a totalitarian dictator can never achieve the "true" ideals of that form of government. So yeah, Nazism and Fascism are hard to diversify.

There is a big difference between developing a system of government through philosophy and actually carrying out that system. Communism proves that with Marx's philosophy and Stalin's Communist rule of Russia. Wolfshanze explained it quite nicely, and you also brought up the U.S. government, so I'll trail off to that.

The U.S. is a Republic, or if you want to be "politically correct", a "Democratic Republic". It was modeled from ancient Rome, which ran well, but got too big for it's own good (and those random Gothic barbarian attacks and the rise of Christianity didn't help, either). Compared to ancient Greece's Democracy, the Roman Republic ran more efficiently. The reason Greek Democracy fell would be the fact that every individual ran the country, and it's proven time and time again that a mass of people are driven by emotion and haste rather than rational thought. If the U.S. was a Democracy, or "Direct Democracy", you can be sure that right after the September 11th attack, the people would more than likely have voted to nuke every Middle Eastern country right off the map, then a few months later repent for it. In addition, people are too worried about their own needs and wants to actually vote and debate every gathering, which would be quite often. People would get bored and not show up, and those that did could manipulate the system. One word to look up: Alcabides.

I would consider the Greek Democracy to be the model for Civilization III's Democracy, but it ended up being the U.S. Democratic Republic instead. I'm not sure if it's a clever subliminal message, a mistake, or just because. On any account, the Fascist patch uses Nazism as the model for Civ III's Fascism, and I suppose it makes more sense to most people, so I can agree to those terms.

I check that site. It has a lot of Nazi and Hitler images, sounds, and so forth. No where in the entire site have I seen one pro-Nazi statement. I think a lot of you need to be a little more open minded. I know it's offensive to some, or many, but it's better to know what you hate instead of just hating it. If anything, the site is an unbiased view on Nazism and Fascism altogether. And it's a whole lot better to get an unbiased view on something than a one-sided view, because it allows the individual to form his or her own opinions, and it builds stronger ideals at that. The reason, Wolfshanze, that people think it's pro-Nazism is the fact that images and sounds of Nazi Germany are plastered everywhere, but in no way have I found anything that's actually pro-Nazism in the site.

If you're offended by Fascism to a high extent, I suggest not wearing a black shirt. It's considered a symbol of "Fascist Italy".

Summary:

* Government ideas and actual use of government are different. (arguement)

* The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany killed millions of their own people, and the ONLY logical difference is numbers. (fact, arguement)

* The Fascist Patch website is not pro-Nazi, but a reference site for a game patch. (fact)

* The U.S. is a Republic. (fact, read also "A Republic, Not An Empire" by Pat Buchanan)

* In society and Civ 3, Communism is linked to Stalin, not Marx, Fascism is linked to Hitler, not Mussolini or Franco, and Democracy is linked to the U.S., not ancient Greece. (fact)

* Black shirts and swastikas are considered symbols of Fascism by many. The fasces is more a symbol of authority in ancient Rome, but can be applied to Fascism due to the government's name coming from the fasces. (fact)

* The media tends to slander and confuse in a biased fashion, as people are easily swayed by it's almost unescapable influence. Most media outlets tend to be Liberal, and finding unbiased coverage is hard to do. (fact, arguement)

* Capitalism is more realistic than Socialism, and better suits human nature. (arguement, opinion)

And that's the memo.

well i agree with all except one thing

Originally posted by mercurycrusader

* Black shirts and swastikas are considered symbols of Fascism by many. The fasces is more a symbol of authority in ancient Rome, but can be applied to Fascism due to the government's name coming from the fasces. (fact)



Fascism has notthing to do with swastikas!

The Swastika is an ancient symbol of unknown origin that has been employed for thousands of years as a religious sign and a decorative emblem. It takes the form of an even cross with the arms bent in the middle at right angles; all bars point in the same direction, clockwise or counterclockwise. The swastika appeared in ancient China, Egypt, and India. It has been found on Greek coins, pre-Christian Celtic and Scandinavian artifacts, the catacombs of the early Christians in Rome, and Byzantine buildings. The swastika was widely used by American Indians. It represented the sun and infinity. In the 20th century, the swastika was adopted as the emblem of the Nazi party in German. Mistaking its origin, the Nazis regarded it as an "Aryan" symbol and linked it to the notion of their "racial superiority". When the war ended, the Allies banned display of the emblem, which had come to be indentified with the "evils" of Hitler's regime.

Originally posted by leonel
Oh come on guys, are we going to discuss the political correctness of game MOD's? Why don't we all just rip on Wolfenstein 3D and Return To Castle Wolfenstein for their displaying of the swastika?
Return To Castle Wolfenstein sigle player had most of the SS simbols censored and the multiplayer had all nazi related symbold removed.... so they wont show any swasticas.

Originally posted by Alturiak
well i agree with all except one thing

Fascism has notthing to do with swastikas!

Like I said:

"...considered symbols of Fascism by many."

Keywords are "considered" and "by many". That doesn't necessarily mean that it IS the symbol, but there are many who believe it's an evil symbol due to the Nazi's use of it. It's like a discussion I and some others had over the manji symbol on something...

Sorry if it was worded wrong, but I hope I cleared up my statement.

Well, seems people are finally beginning to understand me a bit more.

MercuryCrusader, I think you and I are on the same page, and your comments are well thought out... like to see someone thinking along the same lines as me!

As for the website, it's been that way for over 4 years, and it will stay that way, as I like the "down with P.C." attitude the site is... of course, to be honest, there's actually less images and sounds on the site than you would see on one hour of the History Channel.

Still, when I get back from working for Uncle Sam here in Saudi (which by the way, sucks... the things I do for my country), I'm thinking of making a "mirror image" of the Fascist Site in a slightly differant humor, which should (hopefully) be more friendly to the people who get so upety over so little.

Anyone familiar with the very rare and obscure WWII song "In der Fuehrer's Face", will have a good idea where I'm going with this idea (that song will do for the mirror image site, what the Horst Wessel Leid does on the current site). Bonus points for anyone familiar with that song! Both sites (the current one and mirror image) will host the same content, but just have a differant look (and sound). I can't wait to get back from Saudi.

actually if im not mistaken isnt the Swastika a Buddist symbol? I mean sure Nazi-Germany basically mirrored the image to flow in the opposite direct but I am quite sure it is a buddist symbol.
Anyoo I might as well give my opinion while im posting.
Sure Facist Germany and Italy were led by insane bloodthirsty dictator's but installing the patch is all a matter of personal preference, if you dont like it, dont use it, if you just like to be really flexible with governements then go ahead knock yourself out, I myself am constantly looking out in this forum for new governments to add.
Im pretty much convinced this wont be a debate ender but thats my 2 cents :D

Fascism is not about totalitarianism, thats just how it was implemented. In theory (where have we seen these words before...) its more social engineering/guidance than a form of government. Its guiding principle is that every citizen live and work towards the betterment of the STATE, not for their own individualistic goals. Ironically, it shares many of the beliefs as communism.

Fascism (remember, in theory, which is what all the govs in civ are based on...) does not espouse the persecution of minorites.

There are several ancient examples of Fascism, again some in theory, some implemented: Plato's "The Republic" and the Greek city state of Sparta come to mind.

Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's for all of the graphics in his mod, that doesn't mean he is a Nazi... just read the disclaimer before downloading.

Political Correctness is just the latest incarnation of censorship and the denial of the truth of our past.

"...Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's..."

So EXACTLY what is in poor taste when reflecting REAL HISTORY, and exactly who would YOU cast as the defining civilization of Fascism?... Spain?... Argentina?

Sorry to all the politically correct sheep out there, but anyone with half a brain and an ounce of free-will usually thinks of Hitler and Nazi Germany when Fascism comes up as a topic.

I have yet to see everyone start boycotting the History Channel for repeatedly putting up FAR WORSE images of Nazi Germany than have EVER been seen on the Fascist Patch... "Oh no... A swastika and Hitler's face... I'm so offended"... come on, please people... Hitler's evil is cast in stone... does this mean he never existed and can never be seen or portrayed ever again? How about all those movies that have Hitler in them? Are they showing "Hollywood's Poor Taste in having a film about the Third Reich"?!??!?!

Sorry that I don't bow down to all the politically correct sheep, but Hitler happened... you can all cry about it all you want, and censor history books, refuse to watch the History Channel, and never see another WWII film from Hollywood ever again (and for that matter, you better not watch Nickelodeon at night either... they have that show with extremely poor taste, Hogan's Heroes... have you seen all the Swastikas and people dressed up as Hitler on that show?).

Political Correctness is for the weak-minded sheep who like to be told what they should and shouldn't find offensive instead of forming their own opinions.

What Hitler did is offensive... the actual fact that Hitler existed and portraying him on the History Channel, or Hogan's Heroes on TV, or a game such as Civ3 is NOT offensive, but simply acknowledging he existed.

What is in "poor taste" is covering one's own eyes and ears to the world around them and pretending that things didn't happen.

Sorry, but I don't think portraying Argentina is the answer to the Fascist Patch... that would be in "poor taste" to actual history.

As the author of the Civ3 Fascist Patch, I am FULLY aware that the new "official" v1.16 patch is out for Civ3.

The Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 (original) version of Civ3.

I have EVERY intention of recreating the patch exclusively for the new v1.16 of Civ3, but due to my present predicament (I'm fighting for Uncle Sam in Saudi Arabia), I have no access to my website's server, and am not allowed to upload files anywhere, so until I return stateside (in January), there will be no new versions of the Fascist Patch until next month... (which might be good, since there may be a newer patch by then anyways).

So for now, please realize that the Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 and will stay as such until January... how it works with the new version, I cannot gaurantee!

Thanks for your understanding... believe me, I'm anxiously awaiting to return stateside!

Chuckster, I have to first state that I am not white, I'm Persian (Iranian), yet I find myself agreeing with you.

I find that our society has completely compromised truth in favor of political correctness. I see white people having no pride in their race while all the other races do. I see simple truths about differences in sex and race being ignored by the scientific community because of fear of being politically incorrect.

Anyways, about fascism:

Historically it is relevant because it had such a major impact on history.

It must be noted that the pace of change is constantly accelerating as we progress through time. For tens of thousands of years during the ice age man barely progressed, then we discovered agriculture and in about five thousands years we were in the bronze age. The bronze age lasted for 3-5 thousand years depending on where in the world you are. Next came the iron age; 2500 years.. we enter the renaissance at about 1500 AD, that lasts for a couple hundred years, then we to imperialism... and soon we are in the midst of the industrial revolution. We enter the modern age within 150 years (automobiles) after the industrial revolution, and now we are in the information age, after only 80 years. Thus, although Germany's fascist movement existed for only 15 years, this is a significant period considering the percentage of the modern age that it took up; roughly one fifth. 15 years is alot more significant now then it was 4000 years ago.

So anyways,
Fascism turned Europe's largest and most productive country into a war machine. It caused World War 2 which completely changed history from then on. The holocaust basically eliminated European Jewry which has had effects on the present day 'state' of Israel and the problems in the middle east. The effects of fascism cannot be overstated.

As a government form it is ideal for warfare. World domination by force (world domination is already complete by corporations) can only be possible with fascism. It is ideal for giving the populace the will to carry out what is necessary to take over the world. Communism could never have taken over the world IMHO. The cold war was basically escalated by the States at every step because big business did not like communism (no free-market/trade) in other countries and also communistic ideals (socialism) spreading in their own. Communism eventually fails because change happens within countries as people realize it is an overly optimistic idealogy not suited for the flaws of humanity. Fascism on the other hand seems to only gain in power and extremity as long as the nation is at war (therefore ideal for world domination). In a dominated world, fascism's brutal suppression and un-paralleled propoganda would keep the government form in tact with the absence of outside governments. Communism is more likely to fail to maintain a world government because it is unnatural, going completely against our instinct of 'survival of the fittest' while fascism elevates this creed above all else.

Hitler came extremely close to taking over the world. Yes I have read all the theories and facts regarding how badly Germany was out-produced and out-numbered, but had they taken out Russia in the beginning of the war, and had Hitler thought long term in 1940(ex:continued the radar program rather then opting for research which could only be applied within one year), Germany would have been in a good position to take over. Better strategies could have resulted in the destruction of the RAF in 1940, and better anti-espionage efforts could have resulted in Germany winning the battle of the Atlantic. With England and Russia out of the picture Germany's forces could have been diverted to quelling guerilla partisan armies. Germany would have had all of the Russian territory and all its oil and easy access to the oil-rich middle-east. U.S.'s fall would be inevitable.

I haven't even mentioned what could have happened if Japan and Germany had coordinated a two front assault on Russia.

Thank god Germany didn't win the war, but anyone who says fascism is not a relevant government form is ignoring the fact that such a government came closer to taking over the world then any other.

Changes that should be made to the fascism patch:

Fascism when in a peace-time economy should be the same as an advanced despotism. This would be like Argentina's fascist government which didn't do much of anything but kill its own citizens. A peace-time fascist government usually lasts longer then a war-time fascist government, but seems to be far inferior to Communism and Democracy in the sense of expansionism and advancement.

Fascism when switched to war-time economy should suddenly get all of its bonuses. It should get huge production bonuses (2 extra shield on every square) and produce only veteran (elite in the case of militaristic civs) units. This may seem like over-kill but the penalty of fascism should be tremendous.

Under a war-time economy fascism should receive 'peace wariness'. This means Fascist governments would have to start conquering, because being at war is not enough to avert peace-wariness, the civ has to be taking cities to keep its citizens happy. A war of attrition was not what the Nazis were good at, that is why they lost to the Russians... The fascist civ would have to make huge gains and keep making them to keep its citizens happy under fascism. If a fascist civ starts losing cities its citizens will be roused by nationalism and all un-happiness should end. This should make for interesting games as the fascist civ see-saws back and forth between taking enemy cities, reaching a wall, cities going into disorder, losing cities, cities again producing, and again retaking the cities.

Under a war-time economy, fascism should be impervious to cultural assimilation and propoganda, but it should produce no culture of its own. This would lead to other civs not liking the fascist civ and allieing againt it. Fascist governments should be well-liked by monarchies, fascisms and despotisms as they are similar in that they are dictatorial as well.

Fascism should only be able to raze foreign cities. The captured workers could then be rushed to the civ's cities and used to rush production by killing them. This sounds about like what the Germans did.

Fascism should get double the effect out of scientific buildings during a war-time economy. This would make-up for the fact that they receive no culture from the buildings and also mimic the scientific achievements of the Nazis (V-2 rocket, jet fighters)

Conclusion: the effect of this type of fascist government would be that players who want to take over the world dramatically would choose it. It would not be a good civ to play if you are not a war-monger. Most civs will ally against you as you must constantly start wars, not even stopping once you have destroyed one civ. Under peace-time economy a fascist government should be susceptible to cultural assimilation, as this is what happened to fascist countries like Argentina (Pinochet overthrown largely due to foreign influences). During war-time a fascist civ would advance rapidly in science and have the best offensive military in the game. This would lead to it conquering many cities quickly before being challenged by many civs.

Fascism was probably the most efficient government type out there, but nobody else liked how they did it (especially the victims of the efficiency). There should be a way to model this in the game.
I don't have the game editor in front of me so I'm talikng off the cuff here.

make assmiliating foreign cities as difficult as possible, with fascism, national pride and the military nature of conquest make keeping foreigns happy very difficult, it should be easier to raze the city and start over. (the liebenstraum/poland theory)

science should be on a par with republic

trade should be the same as communism, there is capitalism but with a lot of government control/intervention.

minimal corruption (the secret police is a wonderful thing)

no war weariness

a diplomatic minus dealing with every other government (either out of fear or rumors of the nastiness you are doing in your own borders)

a happiness bonus for your cities (nothing brings people better that thinking they are surrounded by the enemy)

just some thoughts

This swastika = Fascism is ridiculous anyway, since the symbol of Fascism was the 'Faces', a bundle of wood with an axe which Roman senators carried about to show they had life over others.
The line of what is Fascist has become far too blured.
Now people ask was General Franco fascist or a right wing conservetive.

The actions of most countries during the Second World War can probably be explained by their past mentality.

Germany took after Prussian example of lightning war (see Franco-Prussian war and how long that took!)

Russia would always be paranoid (destroyed numerous times) and sacraficed huge numbers of people under the Czar's rule anyway. In fact, Stalin's starvation of the country thropugh his five years plan actually controled the amount of food S.U. produced.

The horrrible deaths of Hitler's victims (a very long list), I'm very sad to say, was nothing new. In England, Edward (Longshanks) I began an extermination of the Jewish people. The Spanish Inquiaition murdered thousands of 'non-believers' and their economy, so bolstered by these people, suffered greatly.

Conclusion,
1.Fascism economy is poor, but like communism, everyone usually has a job.
2.Science is normal.
3. Military, national pride should help conscription.
4. Is Fascism EXACTLY the same as Nazism or was it pressure and influence on Petain and Mussilini that caused this (I think Petain should be counted as a Nazi, for his and his fellows actions)
5.Penalty on propaganda in foreign cities, bonus defence in own.
6.Democracies suspicious but not anti Fascist if Communist states exist. (historically true)
7. No war dicontent but Purges should be introduced for Despot, Royalists, Fascists and Communists. (In case overthrown) This would cause selected citizan or soldier to disappear and is historically true: Hitler-Rommel, Stalin-most people (exclude Molotov).

.......... Perhaps a new government should also be included, Fake Democracy (I think you can guess what this is).

Okay, for all you people that think only Italy was Fascist...

Here you are, some 60 years after WWII, typing on your computer and saying Germany wasn't Fascist, and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, drinking soda and gnawing on pretzels.

Meanwhile IN THE REAL WORLD... 60 years ago, President Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin were all talking about "defeating Fascism", and the Soviet's in particular kept refering to "the Fascist invaders" or the "Fascist Beast".

Since you people who know so darn well that Germany and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, I suppose you're all going to tell me now that you're right, and Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill weren't refering to Hitler at all, but were actually worried about Mussolini and Italy. Yes, all that talk about defeating Fascism, and getting "the Fascist Beast" out of the Soviet Union, was really all about Italy, because as you are all so much smarter in telling us who was and wasn't Fascist then the people who lived it 60 years ago, and CLEARLY refered to Germany as Fascist.

Why you're all brilliant... we should all bow down to YOUR definition of what Fascism is and isn't, and COMPLETELY IGNORE WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT, AND DEALT WITH IT, THOUGHT FASCISM WAS, WHICH WAS CLEARLY GERMANY.

You're all in the same boat as the politically correct sheep who want to completely ignore historical fact, and in WWII, EVERYBODY called Germany Fascist!

Then again, maybe you all went to the "Bill Clinton school of technicalities"... "It all depends on what your definition of the word 'IT' is". Nazis/Fascists are all extreme right-wing nationalist movements with totalitarian dictatorships.

Oh wait, Stalin was refering to the Italian invaders, not the Germans... my bad.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
"...Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's..."

So EXACTLY what is in poor taste when reflecting REAL HISTORY, and exactly who would YOU cast as the defining civilization of Fascism?... Spain?... Argentina?

Sorry to all the politically correct sheep out there, but anyone with half a brain and an ounce of free-will usually thinks of Hitler and Nazi Germany when Fascism comes up as a topic.

I have yet to see everyone start boycotting the History Channel for repeatedly putting up FAR WORSE images of Nazi Germany than have EVER been seen on the Fascist Patch... "Oh no... A swastika and Hitler's face... I'm so offended"... come on, please people... Hitler's evil is cast in stone... does this mean he never existed and can never be seen or portrayed ever again? How about all those movies that have Hitler in them? Are they showing "Hollywood's Poor Taste in having a film about the Third Reich"?!??!?!

Sorry that I don't bow down to all the politically correct sheep, but Hitler happened... you can all cry about it all you want, and censor history books, refuse to watch the History Channel, and never see another WWII film from Hollywood ever again (and for that matter, you better not watch Nickelodeon at night either... they have that show with extremely poor taste, Hogan's Heroes... have you seen all the Swastikas and people dressed up as Hitler on that show?).

Political Correctness is for the weak-minded sheep who like to be told what they should and shouldn't find offensive instead of forming their own opinions.

What Hitler did is offensive... the actual fact that Hitler existed and portraying him on the History Channel, or Hogan's Heroes on TV, or a game such as Civ3 is NOT offensive, but simply acknowledging he existed.

What is in "poor taste" is covering one's own eyes and ears to the world around them and pretending that things didn't happen.

Sorry, but I don't think portraying Argentina is the answer to the Fascist Patch... that would be in "poor taste" to actual history.

Sigh.... a classic case of commenting on PART of a quote. Try reading all of the posts in this thread and then reading my post Wolf. If you actually bothered to do that you would notice that many some have pointed to the fact that Hitler is the default leader. That is what I was referring to in terms of poor taste. To suggest that Hitler is the typical Fascist leader is completely wrong, Nazism is not Fascism. Furthermore, I said "may have exercised poor taste." This simply means that I can understand some of the objections to your mod in relation to its Nazi imagery. That doesn't mean that I agree with their opinions. I was merely trying to defend your work.

Wolf, if you bothered to read any of the other posts, some have suggested that you are promoting Nazi views. Again, reading the COMPLETE post would show that I'm trying to show that you do not promote such views, but merely try to promote the understanding and knowledge of the Nazis (from a historical standpoint.)

Personally, I think that having Hitler as the default leader, and much of the Nazi imagery does not suit a Fascism patch. I firmly believe that Nazism and Fascism are not the same government type whatsoever. A better (fictional) example would be the government in the recent Starship Troopers movie. I would have used images similar to the movie.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Okay, for all you people that think only Italy was Fascist...

Here you are, some 60 years after WWII, typing on your computer and saying Germany wasn't Fascist, and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, drinking soda and gnawing on pretzels.

Meanwhile IN THE REAL WORLD... 60 years ago, President Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin were all talking about "defeating Fascism", and the Soviet's in particular kept refering to "the Fascist invaders" or the "Fascist Beast".

Since you people who know so darn well that Germany and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, I suppose you're all going to tell me now that you're right, and Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill weren't refering to Hitler at all, but were actually worried about Mussolini and Italy. Yes, all that talk about defeating Fascism, and getting "the Fascist Beast" out of the Soviet Union, was really all about Italy, because as you are all so much smarter in telling us who was and wasn't Fascist then the people who lived it 60 years ago, and CLEARLY refered to Germany as Fascist.

Why you're all brilliant... we should all bow down to YOUR definition of what Fascism is and isn't, and COMPLETELY IGNORE WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT, AND DEALT WITH IT, THOUGHT FASCISM WAS, WHICH WAS CLEARLY GERMANY.

You're all in the same boat as the politically correct sheep who want to completely ignore historical fact, and in WWII, EVERYBODY called Germany Fascist!

Then again, maybe you all went to the "Bill Clinton school of technicalities"... "It all depends on what your definition of the word 'IT' is". Nazis/Fascists are all extreme right-wing nationalist movements with totalitarian dictatorships.

Oh wait, Stalin was refering to the Italian invaders, not the Germans... my bad.

Calling a dog a cat does not make it so. Just because people of the day called the German government Fascism doesn't mean it actually was.

Although they share several characteristics, Fascism does not equal Nazism. Just because the Allies termed it Fascism, doesn't mean it was Fascism. Furthermore, Fascism was unfortunately used as a synonym for Nazism by the governments in those days. The result was that the public began to use both words to mean the same thing, which is incorrect.

There have been many examples of governments misusing words in their propoganda and law making. Just look at the states Narcotics laws, which mysteriously include Marijuana, which is not a Narcotic by pharmacological definition. Yet, to the government and the general public Narcotic=Marijuana and everyother prohibited drug

1. Fascism does not promote or encourage persecution of minorities. As soon as a government starts doing this, its ceases to be Fascist.

2. Fascism says nothing about the economic model of a country. It simply espouses the unified effort of the people for the betterment of the state and not for their own.

3. While Fascism is indeed nationalistic, it is not inherently totalitarian. Views contrary to that of the government may be expressed (perhaps with social disapproval) but RESPONSIBILITY for such expression is strongly enforced. Once you have secret police, you begin persecuting minorities, again, ceasing to be Fascist.

4. Once a people develop an almost Godlike cult around a leader, like the cult of personality that arose around Hitler, the government and the nation cease to be Fascist.

5. I understand that what I have said here may be vague, but that is how all government theory works. I deal with themes and generalities. The specifics are not touched upon. Just look at the definitions for Communism and Democracy and how vague they are.

6. Nazism is a classification that was based not upon purely theoretical thought, but more on historical events. Thus, it is more specific in its definition: Persecution of minorities, live for the state, wipe out contradiciting opinions and related movements and last but not least, a cult of personality around a single leader.

Wolf, you of all people should realize the difference between Nazism and Fascism considering you've made the mod and its website (with some research I assume.) Or perhaps you pieced it together from info on sugar packets.

Wow, that was rather long winded, Please feel free to quote single words or if you feel up to it, half sentences and comment upon them.

Sgt Zimm: Nazism is (or was) fascism, the German Fascism to be precise. Unlike communism, fascism is no common ideology, the different movements which were later referred to as "fascist" evolved more or less at the same time. Mussolini took over power in the early 20ies, at that time the Nazi Party already existed. In 1923 Hitler's coup attempt failed. The word "fascist" originates in the Italian movement, but was soon applied to others (in particular the German movement) too. In general fascists are people who believe in strengh as the basic value. Furthermore significant for the fascist system(s) was the leadership of one (and only one) leader as head of a centralist government.
Besides these (basic) facts there is no general definition of fascism. The Nazis were called fascists, that doesn't mean they were exactly like Mussolinis blackshirts, but the word "fascism" has been used as a broader definition from the beginning, so that means it can also be modeled after Germany in the game.

And Wolfshanze's definetily right about taking Hitler as the leader. He is by far the best known fascist leader.

Originally posted by Hitro
Sgt Zimm: Nazism is (or was) fascism, the German Fascism to be precise. Unlike communism, fascism is no common ideology, the different movements which were later referred to as "fascist" evolved more or less at the same time. Mussolini took over power in the early 20ies, at that time the Nazi Party already existed. In 1923 Hitler's coup attempt failed. The word "fascist" originates in the Italian movement, but was soon applied to others (in particular the German movement) too. In general fascists are people who believe in strengh as the basic value. Furthermore significant for the fascist system(s) was the leadership of one (and only one) leader as head of a centralist government.
Besides these (basic) facts there is no general definition of fascism. The Nazis were called fascists, that doesn't mean they were exactly like Mussolinis blackshirts, but the word "fascism" has been used as a broader definition from the beginning, so that means it can also be modeled after Germany in the game.

And Wolfshanze's definetily right about taking Hitler as the leader. He is by far the best known fascist leader.

Sorry, Hitro, you are making the same mistake as all of the others who consider Nazism and Fascism to be one in the same.

The word Fascist originates (as was said earlier) from the Roman Fasces, which symbolized a Roman government official's power.

Fascism, while it does support the idea of a centralized government, does not entail leadership of that government by one man, thats Despotism friend.

Fascists are people who place loyalty and responsibility to the state above all else, including family, friends or religious creed. They do not inherently value strength above all else. To put it simply, Fascism is an attempt to instill a military like cohesive loyalty and fraternity to the entire "unit" (state), in essence to live for the state.

Again, just because the Nazis were called Fascists at the time, does not mean they were fascists in character. I would consider Nazism to be a more "refined" version of Despotism: unquestioned rule by a single individual, enforced by the army and/or paramilitary groups (i.e. brownshirts).

Look, I'll concede that Nazism definitely has fascist characteristics (nationalistic pride, military-like loyalty to the state, elevation in social class of the armed forces, etc) but Nazism has several other characteristics which divorce it from Fascism (a cult of personality around a single leader, persecution and elimination of minorities, etc).

The fact that Fascism is (mistakenly) use so broadly is both annoying and idiotic. Its just as stupid to refer to Russia's current government as being democratic (when its clearly not, considering its run largely by organized crime, the "Russian mafia".)

As for Hitler being the best known Fascist leader: He is, if you get your entire understanding of Fascism from coffee-table books and the equally slap-dash popular press. But in truth, Hitler was a despot, not a fascist. Just as Catherine the Great, Stalin, Quadafi (spelling?), Hussein and so on were/are despots.

Oh, on a more philisophical note, the idea of having a single man at the top is not espoused by democracy, fascism or communism like it is in Despotism and Monarchies. Rather, I think it arises simply out of 1) Human tendencies for grabbing power, and a need to see power concentrated in one man (its easier to follow a defined "leader' as opposed to an impersonal/ethereal ruling body like "the senate") and 2) a need to get things done; hard to do when government power is so diffuse (look at the existence of a President in the US, lots of power for one man.)

I completely support what Ironfang & Further wrote.
There are SO MANY dark moments in human history, but just cause we dont like them we can ignore it. Maybe a game where there is no war, no nucs, military units, just a bunch of civilizations coming together singing Kum ba ya would be more to some peoples liking-NOT ME :)

Civ is a GAME - it lets you live history in a sort of way, think about it, what more can you want then to crush those evil tyrants through out our history?!:)

"...Rather, I think..."

Exactly, and you stand alone on this... everyone is entitled to free thought, but simply because you think a thing, does not mean you are correct.

Despite "Sgt Zimm's" confused thoughts, if he were to bother opening up ANY DICTIONARY OR ENCYCLOPEDIA, he will find under the word/subject FASCISM... referances to Nazi Germany.

Then again, we should throw out all literature, and just go by what Zimm says.

I guess nazism is fascism as much as soviet communism is communism. If one base itself on another, it makes it similar doesn't it? Nowadays when one think of communism, they think of the soviet union. Same goes with facism. Anyway, I don't understand why some of you are criticising the swastika. It's just a symbol and it appears in our history books and our documentaries. How come nobody seems to care about that? No book burning procession like the nazis had?

In fact I don't see why we have to argue over the definition of fascism and nazism and all. Why don't you all just let it go? It's just a mod. Don't waste your time arguing please, and let's just continue discussing about the mod. If that's not what you have in mind, then find some other thread to discuss what ever you're interested in discussing rather than wasting your time arguing, ok?

Peace...

Again, there is no common definition for fascism (on the contrary there is one for communism, dating back to Marx). Fascism has no general ideology, so how can you say the Nazis weren't fascist. Who is a real fascist then? I can only assure you that among all reasonable historians in the world the German fascism is not much else than Nazism.
So it is right that the Soviet Union wasn't really communist but the Nazis were as fascist as you can get. Take a closer look at the structure of German society in the thirties and you will cleary recognize it.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
"...Rather, I think..."

Exactly, and you stand alone on this... everyone is entitled to free thought, but simply because you think a thing, does not mean you are correct.

Despite "Sgt Zimm's" confused thoughts, if he were to bother opening up ANY DICTIONARY OR ENCYCLOPEDIA, he will find under the word/subject FASCISM... referances to Nazi Germany.

Then again, we should throw out all literature, and just go by what Zimm says.

Yup, nothing like getting your entire definition of Fascism from a dictionary or encyclopedia. Adequate for a low grade high school paper perhaps, but not for a true understanding of the topic. Try looking at indepth essays, research papers and entire BOOKS on the subject.

I'd suggest "The State: Duty and Loyalty" by R.Z. Tolman or "The Modern Despot" by J. Saravan.

That being said, there is a host of literature to contradict everything I've said like "Discussions on 20th Century Government" by S. Hawk.

Originally posted by Hitro
Again, there is no common definition for fascism (on the contrary there is one for communism, dating back to Marx). Fascism has no general ideology, so how can you say the Nazis weren't fascist. Who is a real fascist then? I can only assure you that among all reasonable historians in the world the German fascism is not much else than Nazism.
So it is right that the Soviet Union wasn't really communist but the Nazis were as fascist as you can get. Take a closer look at the structure of German society in the thirties and you will cleary recognize it.

I've already acknowledged that Germany had several Fascist characteristics and already defined my interpretation of Fascism, no need to repeat myself here.

Anyways, no point in trying to get everyone to agree, that would be boring, and ultimately fruitless without some sort of hypno-ray.

Even a Hitler Jugend knows what it is to be a Fascist. You're all alone in your own personal world... I pointed out that even at a high-school level it states that Fascism relates to Nazi Germany, which you can't even comprehend that level.

For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world), I've been studying Nazi Germany for nearly 30 years, and have read everything from "Inside the Third Reich" to the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", with about every major referance there can be found on the subject and maintain my own personal library that takes up a full room on the subject...

and you know what Mr Zimm?

Every one of those publications speaks of Germany and the Fascist roots.

Funny, even the Germans called themselves Fascists... yet you are so freakin' brilliant that you're the ONLY PERSON in the whole freakin' world to know better than the people themselves.

What a genius.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Even a Hitler Jugend knows what it is to be a Fascist. You're all alone in your own personal world... I pointed out that even at a high-school level it states that Fascism relates to Nazi Germany, which you can't even comprehend that level.

For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world), I've been studying Nazi Germany for nearly 30 years, and have read everything from "Inside the Third Reich" to the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", with about every major referance there can be found on the subject and maintain my own personal library that takes up a full room on the subject...

and you know what Mr Zimm?

Every one of those publications speaks of Germany and the Fascist roots.

Funny, even the Germans called themselves Fascists... yet you are so freakin' brilliant that you're the ONLY PERSON in the whole freakin' world to know better than the people themselves.

What a genius.

Yeah! thats the way to do it! Personal attacks and macho chest beatings about "earning his stripes." Did I at any moment say I was even in the Armed forces? Perhaps I'm part of some paramilitary force, or maybe I'm a politician or maybe I just deliver newspapers! Oh, how will I recover from you horribly bashing my screen name! *swoon*

Assuming you were educated in the good'ol US of A, I imagine you are speaking of the high school level of understanding ofFascism as it relates to the education system of the United States. Well, its widely known that the US has one of the poorest education systems in the western world. If you did attend school in the States, I'm sorry, it must have been difficult learning half truths and propoganda about the evil "commies" in Cuba and other threatening nations like it. Don't take this as bashing the States, its just the truth of their education system.

And kudos on quoting two books. Oh wait, those titles have been used in a host of documentaries, books, and magazine articles. So quoting them without the authors has no meaning.

You've got your own personal library eh Wolfshanze? And all of the books agree with your view. That's convenient. At least I've bothered to read material that opposes my views. It's called being open-minded.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
...but due to my present predicament (I'm fighting for Uncle Sam in Saudi Arabia), I have no access to my website's server, and am not allowed to upload files anywhere, so until I return stateside (in January)...

I applaud you "fighting for Uncle Sam" during this time of crisis. But just who are you fighting in Saudi Arabia? Aren't they one of your allies? Its interesting that although your "fighting" you still have all of this time to post messages even though you're in the field...

But I suppose being part of the armed forces has unfortunately left your critical thought withered and useless. Oh wait, the current recruiting slogan is "An Army of One", right?

That means your actually independent and free thinking. Yeah! Yo Joe!

Just because they had Fascist roots and beginnings, does not mean that the final product was anything resembling Fascism. I cite (as many others have) Stalin's "communism," something that was completely different from what Marx originally proposed.

Oh, the horror of differing opinions....

its nice to come here and see people have an interest in history and the world around them. This debate on what Fascism is even got me looking up things trying to learn what exactly it refers to. The main debate here got started cause of the Fascist Mod for the game. Some people felt it was too pro-Nazi, some thought it was a part of history so why ignore it. Hitler, part of me likes taking him on in the Mod, and another part of me doesn't like the German People represented by him (Dont know what they think, but I doubt it would be positive). Love him or hate him, he did play a HUGE role in the previous century. The cold war, the Berlin Wall, the nation of Israel, and so many other things were impacted by Nazi Germany. In the end I believe that such Mods for games are perfectly fine, I mean we see the German Nazis always cast as the evil villians in Movies. IN my opinion that is no different with this Mod, its entertainment, doesnt mean we are rooting for the bad guy, as I stated earlier its fun kicking some Hitler butt!

Curious about something, what is different between a Military Dictatorship and a Fascist governement? In particular I am wondering what category Mustafa Kemal Ataturk would fall (he is the founder of the republic of Turkey)

anyway I got to get back to my game..... "Kum Ba Ya my lord, Kum by ya!" :)

Ok... I think we have all overlooked something...

Just because Nazi's are considered (by many) to be Fascist, does not mean that all Fascist Goverments are Nazi... wether you believe that Nazi Germany was a Fascist goverment or not is topic for debate somewhere else... really...

The topic for THIS debate is wether a Fascist goverment has a place in this game, which, I believe everyone can agree, does... as much as a Nuclear Missle or any other thing that might have been a part of the World we have lived in as a whole...

And yes, I believe that Hitler was the most powerful Fascist leader we have had on this World, like him or not, at one time he was a military genius, and, if he had not gone crazy from VD, he might not have been such a bad leader for Germany.

thats my .02

RoY

like him or not, at one time he was a military genius

Whoa there! Hitler was never a military genius. I can't imagine anyone thinking that, and not just because of his blunders. His successes and failures IMO were purely intuitive, and gutsy, never strategic or tactical. One does not in time become less of a genius in time, but is rather exposed as an incompetent or amateur.

I am truly amazed that a thread could be seven pages long and still not have resolved anything at all, not even the definition of fascism. Wolfshanze is absolutely correct, in that Nazism (even though it has it's own "-ism") is German fascism. A label is just a label, but here is why, very clearly: Fascism holds that the state is greater than the individual, and idealizes the glory of the past as a model for the future. IMO Italy AND GERMANY fit this example.

This is the spirit common in all "fascist" governments by definition. Again, a label is just a label.

My biggest pet peeve is this: When liberals and left-wing protesters use the label "fascist" as the kiss of death. Signs reading:"(SO AND SO) IS FASCIST" etc. What is so much more inherently sinister about fascism over, say, communism?
The point I'm trying to make is not the usual "Stalin killed more people, so he's more evil than Hitler", because frankly that's a ridiculous statement, but rather that on paper, why do people forgive communism as a good system gone bad due to human nature, when Fascism, IMO, falls under the same catagory?

This may make me target in this thread, but-- To say democracy is the best form of government is the declaration of a cynic. Fortunately, I am cynical, but to condemn an idea because of how it is practised? Remember the Crusades? or the Inquisition, anyone? Or Child-molesting Priests? Why, with such a brutal history is the church still legal? And why are we not having a 7 page debate over the advance of "Monotheism"?

Originally posted by teturkhan
...Curious about something, what is different between a Military Dictatorship and a Fascist governement? In particular I am wondering what category Mustafa Kemal Ataturk would fall (he is the founder of the republic of Turkey)

anyway I got to get back to my game..... "Kum Ba Ya my lord, Kum by ya!" :)

Fascism = live/work for the state. Loyalty to the state above all else. No cult of personality around one leader.
Military Dictatorship = live/work for the military General (insert typical dictator name here, Krul for example) otherwise the army will make you disappear. Loyalty to the great General otherwise he'll "bust a cap in your ass"... course that phrase doesn't really work for a Dictator.

As for Kemal Atatijrk, I confess I do not know too much about him beyond his sweeping reforms of Turkey and his role in WWI. Based on my sketchy knowledge of him I would say that he's a benevolent despot, but don't quote me on that (although with the track record of people in this post, they probably will; they like quoting sentences taken out of context.)

Another interesting historical figure to pursue, thanks teturkhan!.

Originally posted by dannyevilcat

Whoa there! Hitler was never a military genius. I can't imagine anyone thinking that, and not just because of his blunders. His successes and failures IMO were purely intuitive, and gutsy, never strategic or tactical. One does not in time become less of a genius in time, but is rather exposed as an incompetent or amateur.



[STEPS ON SOAPBOX]
According to history books, Hitler had a IQ around 163... and that puts him on genius level. He was a military leader... soo that makes him a military genius, just by strictest definetion...

He contacted a VD that ate away at his brain, and caused him to go crazy, and with that craziness, he lost his focus and ability to control his government.
[/STEPS OFF SOAPBOX]

And, actually Communism, if done CORRECTLY would have been the best form of government... IMO...

RoY

[PUSHES LORDROY OFF SOAPBOX] ;)

Hitler was successful as a war-time leader. He was a failure as a military leader.
Also, I have studied Hitler, and I have no idea of this VD of which you speak. It seems to me to be just another theory of a Hitler biographer. (Which by the way, I'm interested in reading, if you can give me the book and author. :) )

[LIGHTS HIMSELF ON FIRE AND RUNS SCREAMING OFF SOAPBOX]

And, actually Communism, if done CORRECTLY would have been the best form of government... IMO...

Sure, but why not Fascism? there is nothing wrong with putting interests of the state before your own, is there? In an ideal world, that is... IMO, at least...

True Fascism would be wonderous... now wouldnt it... SO.... shouldnt it be in Civ games... where, you could do it correctly...?


RoY:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

*PUSHES EVERYBODY OFF THE SOAPBOX*

The statement about Communism "if done properly" being the best... yes, in a dreamworld, but by the very nature of man, Communism simply can't be done "properly" (if by properly you mean as written by Marx). The entire world would have to be communist, not one nation, and everyone would essentially have to be honest and never take more than needed... these cornerstones of Marxist Communism simply put it so far off into dream-world, that it simply can't exist in reality, so simply put; "true" Communism is impossible to achieve, unless man himself is "perfect".

Now speaking of Fascism and putting the needs of the state over the individual... I quote:
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

So does that make John F. Kennedy a Fascist leader?

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world)

I'm really enjoying the irony, considering the type of society that Heinlein was so clearly parodying in "Starship Troopers". :lol:

Originally posted by Wolfshanze

Now speaking of Fascism and putting the needs of the state over the individual... I quote:
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

So does that make John F. Kennedy a Fascist leader?

Rhetorical question perhaps, but what the hell, I'll blatantly ignore its intent and comment upon it anyways...

The quote, taken out of context is Fascist. JFK isn't a Fascist. Obviously you have to look at his entire record to come up with a fair assessment.

A decidedly poor attempt at supporting your point and an excellent example of shoddy historical analysis.

More off topic

Originally posted by Witchfinder
I'm really enjoying the irony, considering the type of society that Heinlein was so clearly parodying in "Starship Troopers".

Just curious friend, how do you interpret ST as being Heinlein's parody of said society? My interpretation was that he openly advocated that societal model.

I'd be interested in seeing your reasons...

Very interesting mod, seems to get alot of comments as well :). Hmm went little off the subject of the mod and it all went political. Mind is I ask is the mod any good? I like an even mix of goverments avalible to me and the AI. Seems a little tense so i'm not sure its okay I just jumped in there heh.

Finally! A cool head like KALIROB2k2. :D
Well it is pretty good if you want to experiment with that file called civ3mod. It's also a pleasent break from the pre-packaged governments. I even work the government into my government regeme. Despotism for Ancient Era, Monarchy for Middle Ages, Fascism for Industrial Age and Democracy or Communism for Modern Age. Forget The Republic! Too corrupt for my tastes. Well ya know, I'll try to fit The Republic into Industrial Age later.

Originally posted by Viridovix
I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

You have got to be kidding me "a historically insignificant form of government." You must have lived under a rock, Fascism is about as historically insignificant as Communism, During the 1920's through the 1970's there Fascist governments, Remember A historically insignificant Government such as Fascism was responsible for a WORLD WAR and over 15 different Nations becoming a Fascist regime! Germany, Italy, Argentina, Spain, Iraq, Yugoslovia, Austria to name some not to mention the pro-Fascist governments of Britain and France. The only reason why Fascism seems horrible to all of you is because you only read one-sided Histroy, I AM Not a Fascist nor will I ever be racist but come on people "historically insignificant" that is juts plain crap! Communism is responsible for triple the Death count then Fascism, what if we listened to people like Patton maybe communism would be horrible as Fascism!

Just some thinking to do for you all!

KALIROB2k2, give it a try... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by it's balance with the rest of the game system.

Despite all the political attacks and people who can't even comment on the patch's value on the game itself, Fascism is very well balanced between late-game Communism and late-game Democracy, and it also manages to fix-up the naval balance of units better.

Give it a try... I think you'll enjoy it.

Hello. Well, I´ve readed this tread, and I must admit that is quite interesting. I think that there´s nothing inmoral about to play with the fascist patch. Why?. I love this game but you must recognice that is quite hipocrit. The democracy is far to be the best goverment, and the communism was so bloody as the fascism. I would never use this goverment because I think that these kind of games are like an RPG, you “live them”, but I think that it would be great to fight against a fascist civilization (he, he). And don´t say that the fascism didn´t had any influence. It changed completely the geopolitical world situation, and is crucial if you want to understand the XXth century. Yes, it was a horrible sadistic goverment, but also the communism (in fact, the number of executions were almost the same). You can´t ignore the masacres of the history just because they are not “politically correct”. If we make that, well, why we don´t put out the US as a civilization?. The war of Cuba, the Vietnam´s massacres, Hiroshima & Nagasaky, the support to Israel on the Palestinian genocide... the sad and bloody events of the history must be faced, not ignored. The fascism is one of them. Let´s face it, and accept it existance. If not, we will make againg the same mistakes, because the political correctness and the the “aliby silence” are the best dictator´s weapons.

Originally posted by Alturiak

Return To Castle Wolfenstein sigle player had most of the SS simbols censored and the multiplayer had all nazi related symbold removed.... so they wont show any swasticas.

Really? Well I haven't really gotten the game yet, but ya know what I mean! Speaking of which, I must get Return To Wolfenstein... and Medal Of Honor; Allied Assault... mmmm... D-Day Landings...

Wolf...

Two thumbs up here!:goodjob:

Just wanna say, after having visited the website, it's clearly a website for a gamepatch and nothing else... I don't mind seeing images of the Third Reich... frankly, that's all the History Channel ever shows anyways!

Don't know why everyone turns this into a political debate... come-on people... it's a game patch, not a movement. Lighten up folks! I'm actually going to comment on what this patch does (for a change).

As for the patch, I love the way you implemented Fascism... it's really well-balanced and thought out. It has enough "good things" to make you wanna try using it, but enough "bad things" to make you wonder if you should really be using it at all!

I think Fascism as you implemented it, is best used by players who are constantly in and out of wars... if you're always in a war, you should be Communist, and if you're always at peace, you should be Democracy... but if you're in a lot of little wars, then Fascism seems the best solution (is this intentional Wolf? You seem to hit the "Lightning War/Blitzkrieg" motif right on the head with this patch!!!). :eek:

I also love the way you balanced out the naval units with this patch. The Privateer now actually does something, and I have played the v1.16 patch by Firaxis, and frankly, the way you redid the naval units shows you put more thought into it than Firaxis did!

Bottom line, I like the Fascism implementation you did... well thought out, well balanced, great for quick little "lightning wars", but I'd rather be Communist in a long war (which is really the way it should be). Excellent fix on naval balance, and the adding of Hitler instead of Bismarck is a great idea (though I like the way the other guy is doing his Hitler images... maybe you two could team up on this one!?!?).

Keep up the good work Wolf! :D

To be honest, I didn't use the mod downloaded :blush: But instead I add the government type into my own mod (as I already added like 8 new units to my own mod ;) ) and I give Fascism a whooping 20 free units and that makes it a perfect war machine.

It seems that the AI just love it when they go to war. 80% of my games' AI government are Fascist !!:eek: Of course, there is a WW currently going on.

Hmmm...time to go back to my game and join hand with the Fascist Germany (as the Democratic American of course :p ) to crush the Imperialist Japanese (Yup, they maintained Monarchy :lol: )

by Virdovix...
Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human.

So this mean you surely not nuking cities or hurry production ( forced labor... - 1 population) and never sneak attack a civ when you play...Oh may I remind you that your country nuked 2 cities...I'm sure you're not feeling bad...now ask that to Japanese people still sick of leukemia...

You should also delete despotism (people had no right, slavery)

and monarchy (the crusades :Ethnic hatred, Inquisition : killing of innocent scientists ;)and also slavery )

and Republic (2 nuke - extermination of Native american which i found worst then the Holocaust)

and Democracy...(mega capitalist companies: children working at 5 cents per hour around the world...2/3 of the world now...and you dont even realize which is kind of propaganda or worst)

If the facism had won the War it would have been the democracies and the US that were awful...


I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, pummelling down a civilization with many important cultural ideas to add to the world by slaughtering all their peoples, and even grinning when you fly a nuclear weapon of mass destruction into a rivals city, wreaking unheard of agony on its peoples for decades to come, yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?

I think saying "Zieg Heil" is not worst than "God Bless America" even if i'm kind of an american... Ouf! au moins je suis québécois...

I don't know if this point has been posted yet or not, but here goes anyway. The fascist website says that the point of the patch is to add fascism as a form of government. Well, isn't despotism a lot like fascism?? And since despotism being the beginning govt type, what's the point of "upgrading" to the same govt type later? I realize the effects are probably different, but the two govt types seem kinda similar to me.

Also, in response to communism. The leaders mentioned that practiced cruel opression (Stalin and Pol Pot) were leading "communist" govts in name only. They truly practiced more fascist or despotic methods of rule.

Furthermore, the idea of communism is not to wield supreme power with an iron fist, but to inform and unite the working class against such exploitation. Fascism and communism are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum.

Perhaps a more appropriate govt for gameplay purposes would be socialism, to sort of bridge the gap b/t democracy and communism, levelling production and war weariness.

That said, if you're a biggot or a Hitler lover, then get the patch or the simple Hitler head change, decrease the quality of your gameplay, and ignore all reason.

I am reading this post aqnd I am amazed at the low intellegence factor of some people. Hitler took Fascism to the extreme, it isnt true fascist. If you decide to remove that from the game then u must remove all governments because ALL have commited atrocities, every one of them. And , once you decide what stays and what goes you become like the people you say you hate. One form of censorship is no different than another. One suggestion..Get A Life its just a game. Its Not Real. If this government offends u then dont use it. Stalin killed more people than Hitler ever dreamed of killing and they were his own people. So,, Why dont we all just shoot them and let God sort them out.
Get A Life,,If you want a game without atrocities then play Pac Man.:egypt:

I think the Fascist government is a great idea and I was actually missing it in the game. Fascism just has a bad name because it is very unfair to people, as it takes away their freedom and stuff. But we should realize that fascism DID work. We should always remember that without Hitler's 3rd Reich we weren't travelling to Mars. And the country I live in (Holland) wouldn't be as powerful as it is (Hitler built a lot of highways from Germany to Holland, for faster troop deploiment), which would bring further complications (it was Philips, a DUTCH (not American, DUTCH) company, who invented the CD). And the Germans loved to work for Hitler. The only problem was his bad intentions (the war) and his hatred against the Jewish people.

The reason Fascist countries are looked upon as being bad in these decades is because of the memory of Hitler, but (as I remembered from earlier in this thread) if the Germans would have won the war, we would be just as happy, if only a little less prosperous.

A government type like this should really be in the game and also someone should add Fundamentalism, Socialism and this Japanese samurai-age government type. The game simply has too few options.

I must have to agree with Uto3, goverments themselves arent inherritantly "evil", its who in charge and wielding the power that can cause the problems and mar the goverment in the eyes of outsiders.
Not to mention how its percivied when you hear its name. Just having Hitler as one of your most memorable leader sure doesnt help out with winning people over or getting morale:lol: But just because of Hitler or others doesnt mean we cant include the goverment.
I mean kind of like Stalin and Communism... only difference is Stalin was no where near as horrible as Hitler so he didnt gain as much attention.
I'm not anywere near knowing alot about history, but I do know about about the public relations department heh and that basically thats what this boils down to.
Hope I am on subject heh, I dont have my glasses and I am having trouble seeing to well.:king:

Humm... I myself changed worker efficiency to 150%. Sure it makes Fascism arguably THE best type of government, but who am I to deny that fact. ;)
BTW. Those who complain against this patch havent really opened their eyes. Democracy=compromises, fascism=efficiency.

:)

The REALITY is that the conflict between the dictatorial government, and the private corporations who helped install that government, created a tension that led to some inefficiency.

Germany pre-1943 was rife with a multitude of rival programs and was not especially efficient. Only in 1943 did Germany go on full War Mode for production, that after the Stalingrad disaster. By then it was too late, fortunately.

So fascism has inherent problems and cannot be assumed to be especially efficient.

And the same goes for Italy and Japan, but less so for the latter owing to the religious aspect.

The problem with Fascism in Civ3 would be that Fascism comes in many different ways. Like Zouave said it isn't really efficient.

I did the folowing: -Rename Communism to Fascism. Set prerequisite to Nationality or something like that (the thing before Communism)

Created Communism:
- Loads of free support stuff.
- Low efficiency (People don't do their favourite jobs, so they won't work that hard)
- No war weariness

This creates a system of 3 government types. 1 for good support, 1 for good efficiency and a 'middle of the road'-government.

I don't really think it is all historically correct, but is gives you good gameplay.

A lot of this game (and all games) has to do with killing and war.

wolfshanze, why don't you simply rename your government to "national socialism"? this way nobody can complain about your reference to hitler and the swastika. :D

but I BET all would come and complain how you DARED to leave out fascism, such a significant element in world history. *lol*

oh yes, and by the way - though i may be the only one in the whole world - when i entered your website the first time (reading through all of this thread actually got me checking back several times) i suddenly started laughing - because from the very beginning i realized that all those hitler images and swastikas (and no less the background music *lol*) were actually FUN.


and just to make this post civ3-related, i'd like to add that i really apreciate the fascist/national socialist/whatever government addition, along with fundamentalism.

oh my god, i took both fascism AND fundamentalism, i'm such a baaaad guy....

i'd just like to add that the way this thread has gone is basically ridiculous. :confused:

so now everybody come on and flame me.

I am reading this with more and more astonishment.
The ACTUAL differences between communist and facist rule are small. Ideology differs, but the rule is the same. There is talking about the efficency of Facism being greater than under Communism. I dare to say this is false. China is presently under communist rule (sic!).

The Chineese communists has murdered about 90 millions (sofar), The Russian communists about 30 millions. The German nazis are AFAIK "only" third in this absurd competition, about 15 millions murdered. They are all the same evil:satan: , Brown, Black or Red. Simply rename "Communism" (rule and discovery) with "One party system".

Napoleon XIII

Sorry about my long disappearance... I was deployed to the Persian Gulf for some time, and when I first got there, I could access the site, but I got moved to a more remote location and couldn't get on the internet at all! But have no fear, I'm back in the US now, so all is well!

As for the Fascist Patch, I won't be renaming it to "National Socialism Patch" anytime soon (it just doesn't have the same ring to it). Furthermore, no matter what I name this patch, people are going to complain... some people just aren't happy until they tell everyone else what they should and shouldn't think, and what they should and shouldn't like (kind of a Fascist outlook on the world, don't you think?).

As for all these people who keep saying there's no differance between Communism and Fascism and or Despotism, once again, I reiterate, if you see no differances, then somepeople need to take some sociology classes in school. Yes, they're all run by the "tyrant" system, but the similarities tend to end there. Ancient Despotism was tribes and chiefs with no economic policies of any kind... far removed from complicated 20th century economies of Fascists and Communists... furthermore the way the economies of 20th century communist and fascist regimes were run, were SIGNIFICANTLY differant from each other, as well as diametrically opposed social programs, so PLEASE people, stop saying because one person is in charge, or they killed "X"-number of people that they are identical systems of government... you all couldn't be more wrong (or assinine in those assumptions to use a stronger word).

The reason Fascism is "evil", and the reason people look badly upon it, is simply because of what it is. According to the dictionary, fascism is:

fas-cism (fashizm)
n.
1. Often Fascism. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
[Italian fascismo, from fascio, group, from Late Latin fascium, neuter of Latin fascis, bundle.]

Note "oppressive" and "suppression", using the means of censorship, and terror, and the the note of it typically possesing "billigerent nationalism" (*cough* patriotic *cough*) and "racism".

Not all governments are equal in their rightness or wrongness. Further, whether something "worked" or not is completely determined upon what system of grading you are using. If egalatarianism(sp) is the basis of success and failure, Fascism failed miserably. If building an empire upon lies, torture, and repression is your basis of success and failure, then it succeeded.

The same goes for capitalism, in that it has only succeeded in so much as the creation (and in some cases, the distribution) of wealth and for producing the "most fit" entitys that work towards those ends is listed as a success.

In moral, ethical, spiritual, and philosophical terms, fascism was a failure. It is almost solely because of Hitler that we even know what Fascism is, leaving fascism's success in history only measured in the mangled bodys it's left behind.

Fascist beliefs, however, weave through all of history and have been the basis of just about every "harmful" set of beliefs in all of history. That is, that those who disagree are to be supressed by any means neccessary.

Just look around, and you'll find that brand of fascism just about everywhere. But Fascism as a relatively pure government type, no, it's mostly extinct. Not that many factions in America aren't doing all that they can to re-establish Fascism again, however. May Joe Pesci save us all...


However, as for Fascism being a Civ3 government type, it's an obvious (and sensible) choice. If we get rid of harmful governments, we're not going to have any governments left. The minimalist state is the only moral form of government of any type, as well as being the most wise and resistant to corruption of all types, but Civilization isn't about what's good for the people - it's about what's good for the ruler, ie, YOU, and be damned with all the little guys.

It's an awful philosophy to live by, but it's a fine basis for a game. So can fascists on both sides give it a rest?

Somehow I think the thrashing of the equine shall continue...call me crazy.

I don't have a problem with Plutarck's post... sounds reasonable enough!

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Fascism, while it does support the idea of a centralized government, does not entail leadership of that government by one man, thats Despotism friend.



This is not true. Every fascist regime entails the leadership of one. More than that, the leader, the fuhrer, the caudillo or il duce, as you prefer to call it, is believed to be the most enlightened of all. This extreme cult of personality reveals itself on many things, including art, propaganda, etc. This is unquestionable.

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Fascists are people who place loyalty and responsibility to the state above all else, including family, friends or religious creed. They do not inherently value strength above all else. To put it simply, Fascism is an attempt to instill a military like cohesive loyalty and fraternity to the entire "unit" (state), in essence to live for the state.



I sort of agree with you here. But, you are forgetting the reason behind this loyalty to the state exists: fascist believe that the state and themselves, are inherently superior to everyone else. And they often try to base this "evidence" in some distorted "historical reason". Roman heritage for mussolini, arian race for hitler...

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

Again, just because the Nazis were called Fascists at the time, does not mean they were fascists in character. I would consider Nazism to be a more "refined" version of Despotism: unquestioned rule by a single individual, enforced by the army and/or paramilitary groups (i.e. brownshirts).
Look, I'll concede that Nazism definitely has fascist characteristics (nationalistic pride, military-like loyalty to the state, elevation in social class of the armed forces, etc) but Nazism has several other characteristics which divorce it from Fascism (a cult of personality around a single leader, persecution and elimination of minorities, etc).



Nazism is often considered fascism because in its essence NAZISM IS FASCISM ! As i explained earlier, the leadership of one enlightened leader and the personality cult is a fascist "feature". The para-military organizations, like the S.A. (brownshirts), or the black shirts in italy, is another "feature". The economic corporativism and the control of the major sectors of the economy directly by the state is present also in every fascist regim, including nazism. What distinguishes nazism from another fascist regims is in fact the persecution of jews. However, Italians, portuguese and spanish did discriminate africans...

Originally posted by Sgt Zimm

As for Hitler being the best known Fascist leader: He is, if you get your entire understanding of Fascism from coffee-table books and the equally slap-dash popular press. But in truth, Hitler was a despot, not a fascist. Just as Catherine the Great, Stalin, Quadafi (spelling?), Hussein and so on were/are despots.



Of course Hitler was a despot. But every fascist leader is by definition a despot, because despotism includes fascism. If you want, fascism is a practical application of despotism, as it is monarchy...

Since Fascism preaches loyalty to the state above all else, the rise of an individual to lead the nation is inherently impossible. To be loyal to some "enlightened" individual contradicts the idea of loyalty to the body politic as a whole. How can you do both? The instant a cult of personality develops, the government ceases to be Fascist.

The leadership of one enlightened leader is not Fascist. By your definition, absolute monarchies are Fascist. Secret police are not a distinct feature of fascism, look at the former USSR and the "communist" China.

While fascists may consider themselves superior to others, this is true of any supporter of a particular style of government. Look at how US citizens boast the superiority of their government. This belief is not exclusive to Fascism. As for basing this on ""historical evidence", again, this is part of the arguements of any advocate of a particular system.

Italy and Germany, although known to have been fascist countries in pop-history, they ddi not conform to the theoretical outlines of Fascism. No more than modern day "democracies" subscribe to the theoretical definition of Democracy.

Monarchy is not the practical implementation of despotism. As a despot, one person rules solely because he has the power of the armed forces behind him. Monarchs rule because of blood and/or divine right.

Fascism is not synonymous with despotism.

As for dictionary definitions of Fascism: considering they were all conceived of during the early thirties and (mostly) the 40s and early 50s, their interpretation is false. Try reading actual research articles and other academic texts.

Of course the ever eloquent Wolfshanze will disagree with me....

For all you nuts out there, TWO more versions of the Fascist Patch have been released.

Both are fully compatible and based on v1.16f of Civ3.

Versions 2.0 and 2.0NH of the Fascist Patch are available for download now at the official Civilization Fascist Website.

Version 2.0 features an all-new (well sorta), improved Hitler for Germany, while v2.0NH has No Hitler at all, for those who enjoy the Fascist Patch sans Hitler.

Visit the site here (not for those with weak stomachs or loud mouths):
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

Ooh, what a can of worms that one opened!

Get a grip kids; as has been said before, it's a GAME - you vs the various infidel PC players, and one that you are out to win, by whatever devious means possible. And if one of those options is a Fascist goverment, then, hey, go for it.

I have not yet tried the option myself (having just downloaded it) and I am new to Civ3, but I have played a lot of CTP (which comes with an in-built Fascist govt) and yes, sometimes you use it - especially when the evil hordes are beating up on you, and you gotta grab anything to keep yourself from going under - Fascism gives you a kick-butt unit, and massive production, but most other areas slow down.

When you've wiped the smiles off the ugly invaders and the dust settles, bet your last dime you aren't going to keep Fascism - no sir, first chance you get it's onto Democracy and all that personal freedom stuff.

So keep it in context - some bloke has come up with an enhancement (whether you object to the decor of the site or not) to a bloody good game. Use it if you wish, ignore it if you don't.

Now, I'm heading off to try it out...

maybe a facist goverment should be re-named to patriotic goverment

It doesn't bother me that someone created a fascist patch for Civ III. However, fascism is perhaps the most abhorrent of all political movements only equalled by Stalinism. As a University graduate who majored in history I can see the validity of including fascism in Civ III. One of the subjects I completed was called "Fascism and National Socialism". Being from a Romany background I needed to (try to) understand the phenomena of fascism - particularly the German variety.

Roger Griffin wrote a great book called "The Nature of Fascism" (Routledge: New York, 1991). The book mostly tries to define fascism as a generic term, whilst giving a detailed history of various fascist movements and states.

"Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic (read - reproduction of ancestral characteristics) form of popular ultra-nationalism" (Griffin, p.27)

I think there are a few posts here that deny that Nazism was fascist. I disagree, Nazism was an extreme form of fascism. Here is a sort of checklist for fascism as a political ideology - again courtesy of Griffin.

Fascist Minimum

1)"The values and worldview which fascism embodies will be expressed not only in theoretical writings, speeches, propaganda and songs, but in the semiotic rallies, symbols, uniforms: in short, the whole style of its politics."
2)"Fascism will exhibit a utopian revolutionary aspect when attempting to overthrow the existing order but proceed to assume a reactionary, oppressive one if ever installed into power, even if some idealists will constantly seek to 'reform' it by narrowing the gap between the theory and the practice."
3)"The utopia which fascism seeks to implement will never be realised in practice, only a travesty of it."
4)"No matter how 'propagandistic' fascist thought will appear to those who do not sympathise with its world view. its most committed activists and supporters will find in it an outlet for idealism and self sacrifice."
5)"Despite rationalizations of the fascist world-view by appeals to historical, cultural, religious or scientific 'facts', its effective power is rooted in irrational drives and mythical assumptions."
6)Commitment to fascism can exist on various levels of emotional intensity and active support and its ideas will express themselves in various degrees of sophistication or simplification."
7)"Genuine support for fascism stems in each individual case from a largely subliminal elective affinity to it based on material and psychological interests."
8)"Though a fascist movement may appear a cohesive ideological community and present itself as such, on closer inspection its support will prove to derive from a myriad of personal motivations for joining it and idiosyncratic conceptions of the movement's goals."
9)"Fascist ideology and the impact it achieves as the basis is not reducible to the theories and policies of any one idealogue or leader, for it acts as a transpersonal historical structure whose emergence and success are conditioned by its interaction with other structures ideological and non-ideological."
10)"Generic fascism is definable ideal-typically in terms of a cluster of values and goals common to all its permutations, in other words an ideological core."
(Griffin: pp.26-7).

I hope this helps readers understand the nature of fascism. The debate on defining a fascist minimum still rages, but for my money Griffin's analysis remains the best. Fascism is a term often used carelessly. I don't think the fascist patch site is offensive as it only shows related/relevant images from the most extreme form/period of fascism - National Socialism.


:cool: :sheep:

Many people saying Nazi-Germany wasn't a fascist regime. I find that rather strange because isnt' that where the contemporary definition of the term came from?

Many more people upset about a website. I find that rather strange because the internet is full of material that is going to be offensive to someone, so it shouldn't be a surprise or affect someone that much. What I find even stranger is that they would come back here to piss and moan about it.

America is becoming like Nazi-Germany, but this website can say it better than I can though.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

And for the love of Christ, actually read it before commenting. I know the website name looks a little skin-heady, but it isn't that kind of site.

Originally posted by The_Ironman

And for the love of Christ, actually read it before commenting. I know the website name looks a little skin-heady, but it isn't that kind of site.

Well I read it and I have to ask, why does it state Afghanistan declaring war? Bin Laden is not an Afghanistan citizen as such but an international terrorist. He is not the Afghani leader, that is Mullah Omar.

As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celibrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes. Tyrants become obvious only when looking back, after what they have done becomes known. The German people did not stand up to Hitler because their media betrayed them, just as the American media is betraying the American people by willingly, voluntarily, even proudly, abandoning its traditional role as watchdog against government abuse.

The media is not as controlled as in German despot time, since we recieve critism about our own respective leaders. Is this a clever ploy to lull us into believing it is not controlled ? I don't know.

Nazism in the game is okay, but I'm still waiting to see if an official version of Bonapartism is made. We need a strong dictorial government which doesn't lose money in that time period which isn't fascist.

Wolf,

I have absolutely no problem with you distributing my custom Hitler leaderheads bundled as part of your Fascism patch (in fact, that was partly why they were created by me to begin with). Additionally, I am truly flattered that you consider it good enough to include with your own work.

However, all I ask in return for their use is the courtesy of a simple one line credit for my work in the ReadMe.txt of your download and on your website's description of the patch that includes the Hitler graphics.

I am sure you understand where I am coming from with this.

Thanks and keep up the good work,

ccm01

Originally posted by ccm01
Wolf,

I have absolutely no problem with you distributing my custom Hitler leaderheads. . .

:lol: :lol: :lol:

If I was distributing pictures of Hitler I would NOT want credit for it. :rolleyes:

Distribute Il Duce images instead. HE started Fascism, not Adolf.

This might seem like a simplistic assessment, but I would have thought most peoples problems come from the use of nazi imagry in the fascist mod, such images are powerful for a range of complex reasons and so shouldn't be treated lightly. Use of these images in the promotion of an item is, I think, essentially in poor taste and morally dubeous regardless of freedom of speach arguments.

CCM01.... ooops, my bad... I thought I already did that... I did update my links page with your website, and I thought I put you into the readme... I'll do that and re-upload the file.

My apologies!


UPDATE:
Okay, it's done now... you're properly listed in the readme credits! Thanks again for your excellent work.

Thanks Wolf... I appreciate the quick response to my request...

ccm01

I cant believe all the hubbub about this modpack.

To begin with its terrible. The guy who made it doenst know his ass from a whole in the wall about even and fair gameplay. Look at Kino's excellent post on page number one. Who the hell would want a modpack so ridiculously unbalanced? I could create a Facist government type much more balanced putting about 30 seconds worth of thought in it.

Nothing wrong with a Fascist gov in a game, especially a game about Civilization...But to create a webpage with pictures of Nazis and Hitler all over the place and create a ****ty modpack with tremendous benefits to Fascism...well lets just say you dont have to be very perceptive to see what this guys about.

I also thought your comment about communism and the Russians that died was quite telling. Did I sense a slight bit of Anti-Seminism? lol

Look I cant stand politically corrrectness as much as the next guy but this guys a joke and his modpack sucks.

He must be pretty happy though 115,000 people went to his website. I just dont get it.

So WHY is it unbalanced in your opinion? Or do you have one of your own? You don't back up at all why you think it's unbalanced.

For the record, the Fascist government type as depicted in this mod is VERY WELL BALANCED... a lot more thought went into the mod than went into your 20 second flame (without any reason).

The Fascist Government has more corruption, less science and less money-generating capability than Democracy. The Fascist Government has fewer free units, and an unbalanced corruption scale than Communism. Communism is CLEARLY better than Fascism in War, while Democracy is CLEARLY better than Fascism in Peace.

So why is it so "ridiculously" unbalanced? Or can you form your own judgement?

As for the website, you obvioulsy can't read, because you clearly missed the statements on the opening page.

Do you also think the History Channel is racist for showing images of the Third Reich (which frankly, are far worse than those on my website)... why not write Id software and complain about the clearly racist game Return to Castle Wolfenstein... the mere presence of images from the Third Reich does not make someone racist my friend. Or are you that short-tempered and near sighted? I suppose if you had the chance, you'd start throwing rocks too?

Also I suppose what you were trying (so poorly) to say is "Anti-Semitic", which means of or pertaining to the Semites, esp Jewish or Arabic. I clearly am NOT that, but then again, I'm not surprised your flame post was so poorly written and without merit. Whatever word you used is not part of the English language.

Now if you want to talk about the game and this patch and it's effect on the game, FINE... but please, instead of random mindless babble, please try and use some cohesive phrases that have thought behind them, instead of mindless rants. The patch is balanced, if you don't think it is, then please tell me WHY you think it's not, and stop throwing racial and ethnic slurs around, that's really uncouth.

Fair enough Wolfshanze. If your truly created an even and fair facist government type, and also the webpage is more of a attack on politcal correctness than your personal admiration of Hitler and Nazism then I believe I owe you an apology.

But lets be honest here. Comparing your website to the History Channel is quite a stretch. And of course the mere presence of Nazi material does not make one racist, but I can say with confidence your website does not merely have occassional Nazi references, and is much closer to glorifying Hitler and Nazism. And all just to battle politcal correctness? Lets just say I'm skeptical. Why be around the bush? So whats your opinion on Hitler. I'll be glad to give you mine. He was perhaps the most persuasive orator in the 20th century. He united a defeated country, (mostly through fear), and was in large part responsible for the armageddon that Western Civilization went through in World War 2. Was he as evil as the political correct amongst us believe he was? In my opinion Yes. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and Hitler deserves every bit of criticism he gets in his role through history.

I think that it's absolutely amazing that this thread is not only still active after all these months, but still flaming hot, as it were. I can't recall ever seeing any modder take as much flak for his/her creation as Steven has for his. If anyone needs evidence of what a pernicious, domineering, out of control monster that "Politcal Correctness" has become, they need look no further than this thread.

Wolf, for what it's worth, I think you've done a fantastic job with this mod. In fact, it's the only user-created mod for Civ 3 that I've been able to use extensively without growing tired of it. Lamentably, I suppose, that probably makes me as bad as you in the eyes of some your more emotional detractors.

At any rate, thank you for creating this mod.

Hey Minuteman if this is your best example of political correctness run amok, you dont get out too much. Don't accuse me of being PC, I am FAR over to the right politically and absolutely hate political correctness. But I'll also call a spade a spade and not sugar coat what I think. Members of my family died stopping that madman, and I'm asking Wolf a straight question. He doesnt have to answer...trust me I wont lose any sleep over it.

There are images of the Third Reich... there are swastikas, there are pictures of Hitler, there is the Horst Wessel Leid anthem. All of the above are seen and/or heard on the History channel.

The website's actual content contains no referances to Hitler's "greatness", no praise of the Nazi's, no words, verbage or inuendo telling anyone that they should be a nazi, or do "nazi things".

The only things spoke of on the website are of the patch, and the changes made to the game.

So please tell me in your infinate wisdom, why I'm "glorifying" fascism. Does the mere presence of sites and sounds glorify? If they do, I'd say the world is full of easily duped and influenced people. I'd like to think that people have a little stronger will than to think that if they look at a picture and hear an anthem, their immediately living in glory... if that is the case, I'll take down Hitler's image, remove the Horst Wessel Leid, and paste my own image on the site with the "Steve is great" anthem... then maybe everyone will love me.

Please, let's be real here... only fools are so easily duped by the mere presence of an image. I spoke of no glory of the Third Reich, nor repeated ANY of their propoganda. The sights and images there are no more than you'd ever see on the History Channel.

The ONLY text on the website is pertaining DIRECTLY to the GAME of Civilization. Yet you are still fond of pointing fingers and labeling people you've never met or talked to.

I am not fond of "Guilty until proven Innocent", but perhaps that's your mentality. Read any of my posts, and not one time will you ever here me mention being a Fascist is wonderful or anything to that effect, yet once again, it is so easy to point fingers and label people without merit.

Please cease and desist your slander, it's really getting old.

For the record, Hitler was the true definition of "Evil Genious" and I am fascinated by his rise and fall from power. He was a warped man and a monster, yet influenced millions. Fascinated yes... Fascist... sorry, not in a longshot. Sorry to disapoint you, but you can throw rocks at someone else, I'm not the fascist you seek.

I made a game patch, not a political movement. Go harass someone else.

P.S.
Thanks minuteman for your support... glad to know some people enjoy the patch for being a game enhancement and don't turn and twist it into some sort of political statement.

On the opening page of the website:

WARNING

You are about to enter the Civilization Fascist-Mod Site (Civilization II & III). This website focuses on adding the government type of Fascism to a GAME that covers important milestones and events in the history of man. Due to political correctness, Microprose & Firaxis (the makers of the game) chose to ignore the impact the rise of Fascism had on the 20th century. How can one have good without evil? This site is geared towards those individuals who care less about political correctness, and more about the inclusion of all history, good or bad. This website not only offers the Fascist Patch, but also contains images, sights and sounds from the Third Reich and other related fascist regimes. This is NOT a pro-fascist site, anymore than watching a documentary is, nor does the site promote any such beliefs. There are no images of death, and no insults or slurs... but if the mere sight of a swastika or Hitler is illegal in YOUR country, offends you, or inspires you to write flaming e-mails that tell everyone else we must obide by your personal views of right and wrong (which is kind-of a fascist outlook itself isn't it?), please go elsewhere and flee now to someplace safe!


NOTE:
This page and it's linked sites and files relating to fascism are not intended to be taken as the views or thoughts of the author...

"I believe that our most important mission is to make past history known correctly, to reflect on what should be reflected, to forget the hatred, to cooperate for man's happiness and the maintenance of the earth, and to teach these matters to the children of the next generation"

By the way it was the not ONLY your website that inspired my "flaming" post as you call it. It was the combination of Kino's post, which thoroughly shredded your patch, and the website that got me thinking. To date I havent seen an effective response to Kinos post, but if you did I apologize, but I'm not going back and reading through 10 pages of posts to find it.

Well listen you didnt have to defend your political views on a message board, but you took 10 minutes out of your time and set the record straight. It appears I was wrong. And we both seem to have similar views on Hitler. 50 million people died in WW2 and most Americans today probably know more about "the real world" on MTV.

Don't "shred" a patch that you have not bothered to research yourself... you admited not to have even read my responses, and only read one man's opinion on my patch, which oddly enough, was more ideologically motivated from Kino than gameplay motivated.

Kino's own interpretation of the patch, due to his obvious extreme hatred of Fascism actually makes HIS VERSION UNBALANCED in gameplay, not mine. Whether or not it is "historically accurate" as far as can be made, is irrelevant when you consider gameplay. As already mentioned as recently as the last page, my patch IS BALANCED and I stated the reasons why immediately after you questioned it based on one man's opinion on version 1.0 of the patch (not v1.1, v1.2, v1.3 or v2.0).

Don't tell me the Fascist Patch is unbalanced because you read someone else's post on page 1, based on v1.0 and never bothered to read any of my responses or check subsequent versions.

Instead, you should send unresearched flames to Kino for making Fascism absolutely useless in gameplay and totally irrelevant... at least I have kept it BALANCED BETWEEN Communism and Democracy, which enhances gameplay which is what the whole point of mods are... making the game more fun, not turning the game into a political debate, which you and Kino have tried your best to do.

The weight of evidence is not on me to prove anything... quite the contrary, all you can do is say "see kino's post", and can't even bother to quote him or bring up any relevant subjects, or mention the fact that his posts date from v1.0 of the Fascist patch and his own politically motivated modifications only made the patch pointless. I have already countlessly expressed the reasons why this patch IS BALANCED for gameplay, where you have not offered one single sentance as to why it is not, and have refused to read any of my messages to the contrary. I have REPEATEDLY asked you to tell me why, and you have repeatedly ignored my requests, shrugged them off, or said "Kino said so" months ago. Please have some independant thought and come up with your own observations... I'll bet you haven't even looked at the Fascist Patch yourself to weigh its merits to gameplay, but instead read the rantings of someone else on v1.0 and never bothered to formulate your OWN opinion on the GAMEPLAY of the patch.

If you can come up with your own observations and actually VOICE them, I will be HAPPY to discuss them with you here.

Hey Wolfy,

For what its worth, I find you mod to be very balanced. I plugged your numbers into my own mod, and I find that the AI uses Fascism the way it should. The slightly more aggressive CIVs tend to use it when at peace... but it sets them up to bully you, and they are not afraid to be aggressors. Very nice. The passive Civs stick with Democracy, and, of course, those with a tendicy to Communism stick with that. Nice work!

Thanks Black Belt... that's enough to make me happy, the kind comments on message boards and e-mails that I receive.

I put a lot of thought into game balance, and did my best for the computers to view Fascism equally with Democracy and Communism.

this is an excellent patch and although it could use some slight tweaking i'm not going to complain... now one quick word before i go, atrocities play a very large role in history, the depths of depravity humans can fall to is completely invigorating, just pick a culture and look through its history (recent and ancient) and you're certain to be entertained. I mean let us think of few that were commited by the more 'self rightoues' types... first thing that comes to mind are all those lovely crusades and all the women and children impaled upon christian blades. the genocide of native americans. japan's 'rape of manchuria (probably mispelled that) during world war one. vietnam, heheh, to save a village from communism we burn it down. secret drug experiments on american civilians for who knows how many years (lets hear it for the cia) and last but not least, the american bombing of 3rd world countries we just don't like (keep in mind any of this information is free and can be found easily if you look for it), such as iran, yugoslavia, somalia, sudan, and of course my personal favorite, iraq during the persian gulf (chuckle) 'war'. united nations estimates around 100,000 iraqi civilians died during that little escipade. now don't get me wrong i'm not complaining i love the whole entropy deal and personaly i think a society greatness is measure by how low it can go. again this a great patch.

No funny smilies etc here.
I read many comments in this thread and then paid a visit to this thread's homepage. I am shocked. Remove this ******it from CIV Fanatics! The opening of the website is just a lame excuse.

Aggie, why are you shocked? Is your skin that thin? Please tell me why the page upset you so? Please tell everyone why they should all abide by YOUR standards of what everyone else should and shouldn't see, read or view.

You sound to have a rather Fascist outlook yourself in telling everyone else that they can't even have a link to a website because YOU found it offensive to YOUR tastes (without even telling us why you were so offended... the website only speaks of the patch, and shows no violent images or uses any slurs... yet somehow, you tell everyone else in the world to abide by YOUR standards... what a Fascist outlook you have).

If you don't like the patch, fine, that's YOUR choice... but don't enforce YOUR standards on everyone else out there. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't presume YOUR STANDARDS are what everyone else should abide by... damn, that's so fascist. Back off everyone else's freedom of choice.

I have to admit that I haven't read the whole thread (and if I wasn't on the road with win NT so I can't play Civ3, I wouldn't have read any of it) but since the last two pages and the first two pages are the same, simple interpolation says that I haven't missed anything on pages 3-8. I have a fascist styled government in my mod which I call Ultranationalism. It's great for war and rotten at everything else except science, at which it is mediocre - hard to ignore those nazi rocket scientists. I think I set the pacifying percent (and I know this isn't the correct term but I can't remember what that field is actually called) at 1 and maybe even 0 since there is no historic example of a conquered foreign population seeing the light under a fascist government(basically because they were being ruthlessly oppressed or exterminated because of their racial inferiority). I beleive that the mod is balanced and I will, never, ever under any circumstances use it myself. However, that type of a government is a historical fact and being abhorrent doesn't render it invalid. Besides which, any computer civ that takes it on becomes very fair game indeed.

Incidentally, I also changed Communism a bit because I feel it was unbalanced positively. Now I believe that there has never been a truely communist government and there never will be and the Civ3 version represents the never realized ideal. Fascism and Communism as ideals are not so bad (especially Communism) but have always been hijacked by opportunists or idealogues and used as a way to keep themselves in power while oppressing the people while telling them it was short term and for the greater glory of the father- or motherland. I will also never use Communism in Civ but again, that doesn't invalidate it as a historical fact. It would be interesting to know whether the fascists or communists killed more innocent Russians last Century. Back to the unbalanced; the 90's demonstrated just how good communism really was at pacifying foreign populations - Monday the Russian Army leaves, Tuesday the Eastern European Countries (name them all) throw out their communist leaders - so I greatly reduced the percent chance for pacification, but it's still better than Fascism.

Anyway, my view is that to ignore history is to risk repeating the ugly bits so my mod has Communists and Fascists, just not me playing them. For the record, I also only use Nukes for MAD and never bombard foreign cities into gravesites. I play the game the way I would like to live my life and I try to make my Civ a place that I would be proud and happy to live - but those are personal choices and certainly add to the challenge of winning.

Therefore I don't have problems with Fascist mods. I do think that it mignt have been a little less controversial if he had just had the .bic file available on this thread like everyone else and it does make one wonder why that might be.

The Fascist Patch is over 3-megs in size, ergo cannot be hosted here.

I have no problems with the patch being here, but seeing the patches size is larger than the forum limit of a mere 500k, that makes it impossible to host here.

Furtheremore, the website has been in existince in it's present state since 1997, so I hardly saw a need to change it.

Despite all the ridiculous inuendo stating otherwise, there are no conspiracies or alterior motives of either the website or the author.

All conspiracy nuts can go back to watching the X-Files and take a hike.

Hey Guys,

Great discussion on Fascism... what a long thread!!!

All I can say is, those who were ranting about it (and I had to skip 3-4 pages in the middle) are just not gamers! Its a game, and as some of you mentionned, Fascism is part of the history, just like fundamentalism or communism (by the way, socialism is the same thing as communism? and what about Marxism? I like socalist ideas.. i think.. i should read those damn books again! :D )

My opinion, i hope my country never looks at Fascism as a government, I prefer democracy and so happy to be part of one... at least we can all flourish, in a capital and scientific sense..

Hitler definitely was disturbed, he did a lot of bad, but sometimes, i think history is very hypocritical and focuses on certain things or atrocities more than others. Or should i say people who view and review history! The genocide committed by Nazis is very much sickeing to a lot of folks out there (myself included), but there have been worst atrocities and there are atrocities still going on (especially all these terrorist activities). If you wanna take a humanitarian view, then take it on EVERYTHING, not just singling out one event out of a massive and huge list of them. (Do I make sense?)

Someone should make terrorist as a unit and a part of fundamenalist regime.

In the Editor, is there anyway that one can associate cultural advantage or disadvantage to a particular goverment regime?

oh and one thing i just HATE about Nazi goverment and that damn psychopath killer Hitler is that he took the SWASTIKA as his ARYAN supremacy symbol. What a choice! Swastika is an aryan symbol used commonly by people in India (especially) as a symbol of good-luck and prosperity. It was originaly drafted by an Aryan leader (this is one version of its origin) long time ago. He was attempting to illustrate the glorious Aryan expansion. Each arm of the swastika represnting Aryan expansion toward that direction on the earth. It became part of the Hindu culture and mythology as a symbol of prosperity (expansion leading to prosperity of course) and good luck. Common folks in Indian villages often draw it on their houses, their doors. What a shame that the name of Swastika, an important aryan symbol, part of history, was runined by Hitler psycho-killing spree and his hatred toward Judaism or his obsession with Racial Supremacy.

Historically speaking, Germans have always been geared toward Racial supremacy... i read this great book once: RETURN OF THE ARYANS. Loved it... a different history of Aryans represented by the author in a fictional way. Amazing story, rich and full of life and characters. Of course, the origin of Aryans opens the doors to a great big discussion. Shouldn't Aryans be part of one of the civilizations? They were scientifically advanced people, perhaps one of the first civilizations to rule the Earth along with the Harrapan civilization. They were peacefull-religious and scientific. But i guess a lot of people would get offended if Aryans were part of the game as a Civlization.


Shastram

Shastram,

Let me clear be about this.

I'm not the 'politically correct' type that hates games like Wolfenstein, carmageddon etc... That's just harmless fun.

I also like the idea of a fascist government in Civ as it played a major role in 20th century history. That's why I visited the site in the first place (mind you, 5 stars to recommend it...)

But did you visit the fascism site? If you do, you are welcomed with a nice song from 60 years ago that makes me sick. And that's where I think it went too far (amongst other things on the site).

Originally posted by Shastram
Hey Guys,

They were scientifically advanced people, perhaps one of the first civilizations to rule the Earth along with the Harrapan civilization. They were peacefull-religious and scientific. But i guess a lot of people would get offended if Aryans were part of the game as a Civlization.


Shastram

What a bunch of B**t ! Aryans were war loving barbarian tribes, which partially destroyed (it is not completly clear though) partially incorporated ancient Mohendjadaro-Harappo Indian civilization and mediterranian Crito-Mikenian civilization (Here they were called Dorians (spelling ?)). Their only advantage was chariots.

Aggie, so why does the Horst Wessel Leid make you sick? Pablo's dog used to drool whenever a bell wrang, is this the same thing?

Do you get sick everytime you turn on the History Channel too? The images shown on the History Channel are very sickening.... oh, and they play the Horst Wessel Leid a lot on the channel... maybe you should boycott the History Channel while you're at it.

So exactly what is "too far" about the site? Yeah, there's Hitler, there's a song, and a few Swastikas... sorry your skin is so thin.

Instead of focusing what's on the site, how about focusing what's NOT on the site.

There are no images of death... there are no mentioning of "Fascism is good". There is no recruiting, or messages of hate. There is nothing but talk of a GAME.

Get a FREAKIN CLUE AGGIE.

Go take your "holier than thou" attitude somewhere else you intollerant fool.

IT'S A GAME.

GET A THICKER SKIN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Aryans were war loving barbarian tribes, which partially destroyed (it is not completly clear though) partially incorporated ancient Mohendjadaro-Harappo Indian civilization and mediterranian Crito-Mikenian civilization (Here they were called Dorians (spelling ?)).

And what exactly do you base your reply on? How historically correct are you (thats what I mean) or let me put it another way, what are your sources of putting the Aryan race as war loving barbarian tribes. I have actually read a lot of books on pre-Vedic and ancient Aryan tribes, if all, they seem to be a peaceful race, looking for a pure land. Several different Aryan invasion theories exist, some allocate their origins to Europe and most of these are Eurocentric views based on the fact that Europe is the craddle of civilization (now thats BS!) and others allocate their origins to Indian subcontinent, particulary the area near Harrappan valleys, the area surrounding the Indus River: Sindh. I invite you to read the following:

A thread on Aryan/Sanskrit Culture:
http://forumhub.com/expr/9359.10.37.10.html
or read this article on the word ARYA
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_arvind.html
You can even check this out on the MYTH OF ARYAN INVASION:
http://www.hindubooks.org/david_frawley/myth_aryan_invasion//

If you are interested in doing more web readings, here are a couple of other links:
http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/indexAryan.html
http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/aryan.html
http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gk1415/indus_history.htm

And the other story about Aryans (the invasion, mingling theory that you mentioned):
http://www.tourindia.com/history/aryans.htm

I think thats interesting readings on the Aryans... one can argue whether they were really a "BARBARIAN" or warrior tribes. Yes they had the chariot, but that does not make them barbarian, they were advanced, had a wonderful language, a religious system, they were intelligent and they did have a major effect on the civilizations that came to be in the future. Their effect is visible on Indian Culture, Iranian culture, some even say that during their migration (or the mythical invasion) they effected the areas from Europe to India, the whole thing called INDO-EUROPEAN area was affected by them, their culture, their stories and their religion. THe Gypsies will tell you, the spanish gypsies, the folk tales, folk songs all around europe, iran, india, pakistan.. about Aryans.

SO maybe you should revisit your history books, at least look at the two sides of the coin before saying that the coin is only one sided.

Shastram

Aggie,

I visited the site, i didnt stay long on the site... just downloaded the mod file which does make a good addition to this really wonderful game. Yeah the site is displaying Hitler and the swastika as modeled by his nazi regime and i can assure you, that if i opened that page up in front of some of my friends, i would get hell from them! But when it all comes down to, the nazi holocaust had such a huge focus for only one reason: It was something that happened in Europe, a civilized country (apparently! But the cruelity and atrocities committed by EUropean Civs are so many!) and of course, Judaism is Involved. I am a very neutral person when it comes to religion, i have my opinions, my own prejudices... but no ill-will toward anybody, I live in a multi-cultural secular world and i'm very happy, but I know this, Jews make a lot of noise aobut any sufferings they endure, they get the worlds attention and they give their events bigger focus, a much bigger focus then any other events. Israel Palestine conflict for example: There is always a news article adorning the main page of North American Journals, how come we dont hear much about the rest of the world with that intense focus?
The focus, attention and the mark that Nazi holocause left on European and American populace....No other event gets that kind of focus, the atrocities in middle east, in Turkey, China, Communist Russia, Kashmir, and i can go on and on about atrocities in our history far worse than the Nazi holocaust, they never get that sort of attention. Why did the nazi holocause leave such a strange and lasting mark on our european and american populace? It had to do with Europe, with Judaism, with Racial supremacy.

Coming down to the website, sure the site shows somepictures of an evil man, glorified pictures, his music, his symbol (and i hate how he turned the worlds view on Swastika, the western world)... and i dont want to visit that site again, at least i got my mod file :) i can play my game with ANOTHER GOVERMENT NOW.. i'll modify the File to my own opinion of what Fascist goverment should be like.. then if you want, i'll post it here.. :) I think Fascist goverment, Fundamentalist goverments should have bigger penalty levels then they get.

Hey, one thing though, this is all my personal opinion and i hope you guys appreciate it. My disclaimer is: That I have no ill-will toward any civlization, religion or any body (except the damn terrorists) thats it.

Shastram

Shastram, you can't say in the same sentence that are neutral but have views and prejudices - that is a contradiction. However, I am certainly not going to say that you aren't allowed to have your own views and I wish I could say that I don't have any prejudices of my own, so I'm not going to criticize that either. The problem occurs when people - and I am not saying you - believe that their opinions, views and prejudices are facts. The main problem with fanatics (be they nazis, islamic fundamentalist terrorists (not just fundamentalists), etc) is that they know and believe and that allows them to do pretty much whatever they want because god - and it usually is god unfortunately - is on their side.

As for the Jews; well, if someone came along whose stated policy was to kill off everyone of my ethnicity, and then tried to do it to the tune of 6,000,000 dead, well I personally believe that I would feel resentment towards that person. I don't believe that any intelligent human being would be unable to understand that reaction. For the record, I am as WASP as you can get going back as many generations of my family tree as we know (at least 8 generations on each side). At least there appear to be Scots, Welsh and English in roughly equal proportions so not too inbred yet. Also for the record, I believe that many of Israel's policies are badly flawed and based on a paranoia arising from nazi Germany and other pogrom's through history, which may be understandable but in the long run is dangerous and harmful.

Finally, your point about an uneven reaction to atrocities around the world is valid; but the Civ audience is a Eurocentric audience and the majority perspective is the European perspective. The vast majority of the people who are members of this site had parents or grandparents who were involved in WWII. Therefore these atrocities are a lot more personal than others. Doesn't make them better or worse but I personally would argue that we are 'undervaluing' atrocities elsewhere, not 'overvaluing' the atrocities committed against the Jews, Poles, Russians, etc during WWII. It's worth remembering that Hitler considered the US and, to a lesser extent, Canada decadent because of our mixed blood but in general considered the British Empire a good thing because it kept all those inferior races in Asia, Africa and the Indian subcontinent in check. How many of us aren't affected by that categorization or are wholly comfortable with it?

Yes, European history is full of terrible deeds but so is every other history. One hopes that we are evolving faster than our ability to kill each other in a righteous cause but the evidence is at best mixed.

Nice Anglophile, very nice post. I agree with almost everything you said in your post. Hmm, someone actually does speak sense here ;-)

Shastram, you can't say in the same sentence that are neutral but have views and prejudices - that is a contradiction

Just wanted to let you know that I never said my opinion is neutral, i said i have no ill-will toward anybody, but I do have my prejudices. What that simply means is that, just like every other human being, i have my own dislikes and my own ideas about certain things, whatever may that be, but in general, i have no ill-will toward anybody. I have friends and i mean really, from all kind of countries... But i still have certain prejudices, and i guess they are based on my own past experience and my own understanding.

As for the Jews; well, if someone came along whose stated policy was to kill off everyone of my ethnicity, and then tried to do it to the tune of 6,000,000 dead, well I personally believe that I would feel resentment towards that person. I don't believe that any intelligent human being would be unable to understand that reaction

You are absolutely right... I feel the same way. Someone has committed atrocities toard my people, my race and i have a big resentment against those people, or those countries. I guess thats part of my prejudice to not like people from that country (in general) but to my own surprise, I have friends from there also. I guess I'll never FULLY trust them, but I do consider them friends.
But you know what I dont like, is that they (Jews) want you to sympathize with their cause, but they dont sympathize with yours!! I mean what is it, do you have to be closed toward the rest of the world and show your sufferings again and again, its life!!! Evil people are born, they commit bad things and they die. Like I said, a lot of bad thigns have happened in the past, but no body really focuses on them. When did the holocaust take place? Almost 50 years ago? We still get news about this nazi officer went in the court of law today 90 years old, but the court charged him ... or that nazi officer .... Yes 6 Mil people died, other wars or genocides have also been committed in this world.... please, open your mind to the whole world, sympathize with everybody, show respect to everyone's suffering and not your own peoples.

Doesn't make them better or worse but I personally would argue that we are 'undervaluing' atrocities elsewhere, not 'overvaluing' the atrocities committed against the Jews, Poles, Russians, etc during WWII.

Correct, atrocities elsewhere are being undervalued, ignored to some extent ... and the world is being forced to look at these European atrocities and no one is looking at theirs. Like I was saying earlier to a friend of mine (or perhaps in one of these posts), why is it that we focus so much on what happens in Israel-Palestine conflict while the rest of world also has tons of similar conflicts? Is it because a lot of Jews control a lot of money.. is it because its a European thing?

Wel I can go on and on ... this topic wont stop. NOthing will change, it will remain the same. But as you said Anglophile, I hope so too that we are evolving faster, that we are accepting the diversity in this world, learning from other cultures and realizing that we all share the same genome. Hey, humans and Chimpanze share 99% of their DNA code!!! And also one thing I like a lot when i hear those astronauts say that there is no border when we look at the earth from the space... no border, just one big planet... i wish people could feel that way... sadly, where there is good, there is also bad....
I wish i was an astronaut! :)

Thanks for your nice post.

Shastram

Well said, Shastram!

Originally posted by Shastram


And what exactly do you base your reply on? How historically correct are you (thats what I mean) or let me put it another way, what are your sources of putting the Aryan race as war loving barbarian tribes. I have actually read a lot of books on pre-Vedic and ancient Aryan tribes, if all, they seem to be a peaceful race, looking for a pure land. Shastram

Barbarians:

Wandering tribes without writing commonly called barbarians.

War-loving:

Arjuna said:
Seeing these kinsmen, O Krishna, I am standing here eager for war, but my limbs droop down and my mouth is quite dried up; a tremor creeps over my body; and my hairs stand on end; the Gandiva bow slips from my hand; my skin burns intensely. I am unable, too, to stand up; my mind whirls round; O Krishna! I see bad omens, and I do not perceive any good that will come from killing my kinsmen in battle. I do not wish for victory, O Krishna, nor sovereignty, nor pleasures: what is sovereignty to us, O Govinda, what are enjoyments, and even life? Even those, for whose sake we desire sovereignty, enjoyments, and pleasures, are standing here for battle, abandoning life and wealth—teachers, fathers, sons as well as grandfathers, maternal uncles, fathers-in-law, grandsons,brothers-in-law, and other relatives. These I do not wish to kill, though they kill me, O destroyer of Madhu, even for the sake of sovereignty over the three worlds, how much less then for this earth?
<snip>

Krishna said:

How does it happen that this delusion, Arjuna, which is discarded by the good, which excludes from heaven, and occasions infamy, has overtaken you in this place of grave danger? Do not be weak, Arjuna, it is not worthy of you. Cast off this base weakness of heart, and arise, O terror of your foes!
<snip>

Having regard to your own duty also, you ought not to falter, for there is nothing better for a Kshatriya than a righteous battle. Happy those Kshatriyas, O son of Pritha, who can find such a battle to fight—an open door to heaven! But if you will not fight this righteous battle, then you will have abandoned your own duty and your fame, and you will incur sin.

All beings, too, will tell of your everlasting infamy; and to one who has been honored, infamy is a greater evil than death. Warriors who are masters of great chariots will think that you abstained from the battle through fear, and having been highly thought of by them, you will fall down to littleness. Your enemies, too, decrying your power, will speak much about you that should not be spoken. And what, indeed, is more lamentable than that?

Killed, you will obtain heaven; victorious, you will enjoy the earth.

Therefore arise, O son of Kunti, resolved to engage in battle. Looking alike on pleasure and pain, on gain and loss, on victory and defeat, then prepare for battle, and thus you will not incur sin.

This snip from Mahabharata descend direcly from Vedas.
And if it is not war-like, than I'm really at loss.

And there is no such a thing as "pre-Vedic" Aryas culture.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK DONE, Wolfshanze!
I respect all the time and effort you put into creating this mod.
I've met Fascicsm Patch from the early days of Civ2. I never even bother about all that "political stuff" about Fascism. If somebody doesn't like the patch, isn't it voluntarly downloadable? If you don't like - just don't use it. Those who try to accuse you about "propaganda of totalitarism" just completly don't understand the concept of the mod (and the site). There will be always people like them. You can try to explain things to them but can not convince them. Just let them alone.
AND FOR THE PURIST : Yes, you're right that NAZISM was something LITTLE different than FASCISM. Coca-Cola isn't exactly the same as Pepsi Cola, but both are colas, dudes!! It's completly inasane, yes insane to discuse wheter the patch should be called Nazism or Fascism. The AUTHOR have choosen the name - accept it. And there's no logical reason to have two so similar goverments in game like FASCISM and NAZISM together. One's enough. For the same reason I don't see reasonable to have MONARCHY and ABSOLUTIST MONARCHY in Civ!! But yes both Monarchies were LITTLE ;) different.
Hope, somebody understood the concept.
Bye, civers.

The entire debate over whether or not the Aryans were a warlike culture seems a bit off topic, not to mention unimportant to whether their mythology deserves to be associated with Nazi Germany. I think we can all agree (I hope we can all agree, I do not feel like arguing about this) that the Vikings and that most of the cultures from scandinavia during the middle ages were quite violent. On the other hand, their mythology has had a heavy influence on ours (to the extent that we can be said to have a mythology). Wouldn't it be a shame if some lunatic tried to conquer the world in the name of the norse, and this mythology was looked on in a negative light as a result. Just because the Aryans may have been quite warlike doesn't mean that
What a bunch of B**t ! Aryans were war loving barbarian tribes, which partially destroyed (it is not completly clear though) partially incorporated ancient Mohendjadaro-Harappo Indian civilization and mediterranian Crito-Mikenian civilization (Here they were called Dorians (spelling ?)). Their only advantage was chariots.
can be considered a valid response to someone's complaint of Hitler's use of the swastika. Certainly similar things could be said of the Rus, but there is no way that they can be compared to Stalin, even though their actions created the nation that that dictator controlled.

:o now look how far off topic I got....

S3d, well it looks like either you have READ the Bhagwat Gita, or you saw this snippet of yours on a website. If you want to start quoting, I have no problem with that, I can quote you HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of instances in Hindu mythology where Aryans are shown as NON-VIOLENT and peaceful race. By the way, let me tell you what that SNIPPET of yours was all about (just curious, do you know what that snippet from Mahabharata is all about?). Mahabharata, the ultimate battle in Hindu mythology, the battle between Good and Evil. Krishna and Arjuna on one hand representing all that is Good, divine, because Krishna the supreme Lord himself is assisting Arjuna and his 4 brothers in this ultimate battle (Maha = Ultimate). On the other hand, Arjuna's own relatives who happen to be relatives of Krishna also (Krishna is an Avatara of Supreme Lord Vishnu, an avatara is the human form of a God) are standing in a glorious battle lineup. Warriors (Kshatriyas) that are renowned in the world for their fighting abilities with several weapons, they are amazing, they are the best but they are being forced to fight for their kingdom because their LOYALTY lies for their kingdom, the same kingdom which is under the 'evil' reign of Duryodhana, the bad cousin of Arjuna and his brothers.

I'll stop here cause this can get really long. Without knowing the full story, you shouldnt assume that YOUR SNIPPET represents the Aryan Culture or the Hindu Culture for that matter as in my opinion, these terms are interchangable. Mahabharata represents the biggest battle ever fought against evil and evil can exist in any form. Krishna simply wanted to make sure that Arjuna carries out the DUTY or DHARMA of a Kshatriya, a warrior (Kshatriya by the way is a cast, one of the five casts in Hinduism). Its a duty of a warrior to fight, its not only his dharma but his karma as well to fight against evil, whether it is his own family or not, but he has to fight. Now, warriors is only one of the casts mind you, we have brahamans also, the main cast, the top level, and they are NOT warriors, they are PRIESTS, HOLY MEN, men who worship peace and God.

So if you knew what story that snippet came from, you wouldnt base your assumption on the fact that Aryan race was a barbarian race. They were very very civilized! Probably you should read the mahabharata, you will learn something about Aryan/Hindu Mythology.

[QUOTE]And there is no such a thing as "pre-Vedic" Aryas culture[/QUOTE

And yes, there are PRE-VEDIC aryans... after all, Vedas are Aryan Scriptures, to be able to write them, there must be Aryans BEFORE the Vedas existed, dont you agree? Very logical reasoning.


Any arguments on that? Be my guest, i love this discussion...

===============
Barbarians:

Wandering tribes without writing commonly called barbarians.

War-loving:
==================

oh and by the way, they had WRITING, THEY WROTE THE VEDAS, the MAHABHARATA, THE GITA, THE PURANAS, and nameless other scriptures, they invented the language SANSKRIT!!!! Where are you getting your facts from man??? Did you know that all the languages in Europe share the root with Northern Indian subcontinent languages.. and that root goes to Indo European language called: SANSKRIT.. you know which race invented that language??? Let me say it again: ARYANS!!! You know what historians study when they study the aryan culture? let me answer that for you: They study the migrations, modifications and whatever the heck happened to Sanskrit throughout the history of mankind.
Hope i'm not shocking you much here.. so please, before you argue or discuss on something, please get your facts straight, dont rely on some snippets that you may have read somewhere!

Shastram

To Omichyron: (and party to S3d again)

You are right, the debate does seem off-topic. I had just mentioned that Aryans might be a good civ to add to the game but our friend S3d doesnt seem to know who or what Aryans were and he wants to argue that on his facts that have no ground what-so-ever! Just wanted to make a point. Aryans gave a lot to our civilizations, they might just be the craddle of civlizations and to have people think like that about their tribe.. calling them war-loving-barbarian tribes just kinda seems unfair. They were much more.. much better.. civlizied and religious tribes. In those times, war was a reality, every civilization fights for their rights, their freedom and good always fights evil. The allies fought the Nazis, should we consider the allies as war-loving bunch of barbarian tribes coming together to beat the nazis??? I dont think so.

Your last comment was on the dot. :) Thanks for that.

Shastram
p.s. S3D : Just one more comment, the bold comment that you inserted in your email: Killed you will receive heaven and victorious you will rule the earth... its based on the KARMA theory. You see, a Kshatriyas Dharma and Karma is to fight without thinking about the fruit of his action. If he does that properly, he reaches heaven...whether killed or not...If he is killed while doing his duty, he reaches heaven. Read up on Karma and Dharma as two important Hindu concepts (consequently Aryan concepts).

Originally posted by Shastram
S3d, well it looks like either you have READ the Bhagwat Gita, or you saw this snippet of yours on a website. If you want to start quoting, I have no problem with that, I can quote you ....

Shastram

Well if you think that Vedas were written (well they were written later of cause) during the aryas invasion you should read some more books.

I think YOU should also read some books regarding ARYAN INVASIONS. If you still think that the eurocentric views of Aryan invasions are the right ones, then open your mind up a little bit, actually do research on it, and see if they actually did invade or were they from the area they mythically invaded.

I agree, Vedas were passed on for years and years using the verbal tradition, but you cant consider a civlization barbarian because they invented a beautiful language like Sanskrit.. and you certainly cant consider a civilization barbarian based on a snippet from a book that TALKS about the ultimate battle between Good and Evil... read more snippets.

Shastram

I should read more ??? that is not healfy :)

Ok, little chronology here :

1700 BC Aryan invasion and destruction of Mohenjo-Daro
1450 BC The first Veda written (Rigveda)
before 500 BC first Sanscrit writings.(well, may be couple of hundred years earlier)

You was telling Vedas were written in Sanscrit, arn't you ?

And if you considering Kauravs evil you have not read Mahabharata at all.

umm.. chronology seems kindaa off to me! Historical debates my friend, Vedas were not written in Sanskrit? (its spelled SANSKRIT)

once again, you are still going on and on about aryan INVASION, DUDE! how many times do i have to repeat it, look at the other face of the coin, history does argue the fact that aryan invasion might just be a MYTH! They originated from Sindh and returned to Sindh which got coined as INvasion, there was NO INVASION. Do a search on Yahoo on ARYAN INVASION MYTH, you will see some interesting articles pop up. Man chronology can also be argued and debated because its based on the language, but thats not true, read some more on that also.. why do you guys have to close your mind after reading an eurocentric view of the damn history?
If the Vedas are written in Sanskrit, how can the language be invented or be written after? Think aobut that! Aryan language WAS Sanskrit.
Point your browser to the following link:
http://www.geocities.com/vedic_temple/hinducentum/q10.html

Read it.. VEDAS WERE WRITTEN IN VEDIC SANSKRIT

http://www.connect.net/ron/sanskritliterature.html

oh and these are once again, years or dates based on the study of the language pattern... these CAN be argued.

I am a hindu, not only have I read Mahabharata, I have read a lot of other Hindu Scriptures. KAURAVAS are not considered evil, i never said i considered Kauravas evil, i never even MENTIONED the word Kauravas, i said DURYODHANA was considered evil... if not EVIL, he was certainly considered bad, he did not rightfully belong to the throne, he made the Pandavas suffer needlessly, he go the kingdom by fraud and he did a lot of othe things that were not worthy of a Kshatriya of his standard. The Battle was of course his idea... should you not consider him wrong or evil, then the whole teaching in the Gita about doing your Dharma and Karma are in vain!

I am not going to argue with you on any of these points anymore, its useless. Your mind is closed. You dont talk facts and you are trying to pick on anything i have typed in my posts. I firmly believe that Aryans were NOT A BARBARIAN WAR LOVING RACE AT ALL. They were civilized people who were powerful, intelligent, scientifically and liguistically advanced. Their origins can be argued upon, whether they actually invaded or not can also be argued upon, whether they exsited in about 2000 BC or in about 5000 BC (as some history books tell about them) can also be argued upon, but your arguments are not supported. Are mine supoorted? I have read books yes, i am only talking from what I have read. Get your hands on this book: RETURN OF THE ARYANS, a historian friend of mine doesnt like the fact that the author doesnt have any SOLID historical proof for his theories, he said it's one of those books written by Indians to glorify their pasts! He is an Indian historian himself, he told me to go and read certain authors who give convincing proofs on their theories about Aryan origins. But in my opinion, Bhagwan S. Gidwani, the author of the book who consequently resides in Montreal Canada wrote the book after 20 years of ardent research. His research material: FOlk Songs, folk stories history books, scriptures, located or found THROUHOUT the Indian subcontinent till Europe. Folk Songs and Folk stories become very important in his research because according to him, as the history was orally transmitted initially, the poems written during that time period can give u a more or less idea of what the world was like that time. He presents his story in a fictional manner starting in the year 6000 BC. Yes its fictional, it perhaps is not supported with SOLID historical proofs, a lot of historians out there do give a somewhat similar account of Aryan history. SHould we not open our minds and realize that the original Aryan history written was written by European historians who had a very strong Eurocentric cultural background and Eurocentric views about Civlizations? Who would find it insulting to know that the craddle of civlization could be outside Europe and be part of some other religion than Judaism, Catholics or Islam? After all, Hinduism is a completely different religion, Arya Samaj is a completely different way of living! It is not arrogant or expansionist at any cost.

I'm trying to talk reason and not to throw flames at you. SO think about it and get to know the other side of the coin!

Shastram

Hanti... thanks for the support! I don't even know what all this other talk is about... it has NOTHING to do with the Fascist Patch or Civ3?!?!?!

(its spelled SANSKRIT)

Hmm, arguable point of view. That word transcribed to english by at least 3 way.

aryan invasion might just be a MYTH!

_That_ is a myth. Or at least most of scholars reciognize Aryan invasion.

If the Vedas are written in Sanskrit, how can the language be invented or be written after?

They weren't.
Vedic languadge related to Sanscrit, but is not a sanscrit.

I am a hindu, not only have I read Mahabharata, I have read a lot of other Hindu Scriptures. KAURAVAS are not considered evil, i never said i considered Kauravas evil, i never even MENTIONED the word Kauravas, i said DURYODHANA was considered evil... if not EVIL, he was certainly considered bad, he did not rightfully belong to the throne, he made the Pandavas suffer needlessly, he go the kingdom by fraud and he did a lot of othe things that were not worthy of a Kshatriya of his standard. The Battle was of course his idea... should you not consider him wrong or evil, then the whole teaching in the Gita about doing your Dharma and Karma are in vain!

Well, he was not a knight in whight armor, but the rain of flowered poured on his body after he was defeated by treacherous hit of Bhimasena. So may be he had some merits.


I am not going to argue with you on any of these points anymore, its useless. Your mind is closed.

Hmm, you aryan theory is not what most of people calling science.

Hmm, you aryan theory is not what most of people calling science.
Actually, its not that dissimilar to what my world history class covered last year. Don't you think a new thread should be created on this topic? It is quite irrelevant to this patch.

Okay... this "conversation" on a thread is getting a little out of control... I don't even see the link between the Fascist Patch, Civ3 and the migrations and history of the Aryan race... this seems odd, even for me!

Could this back and forth discussion on the Aryan race be taken or started on a new thread someplace else? What does it have to do with the Fascist Patch or Civ3?

You guys are right, we will stop the discussion here. Vedic language is called VEDIC SANSKRIT (i think you didnt read the two web pages i pasted in my reply did you S3d?).

Sorry to all who got bothered by the discussion on the Mythic Aryan Invasion and whether Aryans were barbarians (what crap!) or not.

I'll just make a last point to S3D, if you know Mahabharat, you probably know the Ramayana too, did you know that Ravana, the Evil Asur who abducted Rama's wife Sita was considered the most learned man in the Universe? Did you know that if he hadnt used his abilities, his knowledge and his intelligence in the wrong way, he could have been considered a GOD.. higher than Rama Himself! Did you know that his knowledge was considered so great that he was compared to Brahma in that sense?
Just because the story says that Duryodhana had flowers showered on him upon his death doesnt make him a Good person. He WAS bad because he DID bad things, maybe he was influenced by his uncle, but he still did what was NOT right... thats an interesting discussion, i should get on some Hindu newsgroup and see how many people (there might be scholars lurking there) consider Duryodhana a good person and how many ocnsider the battle of Mahabharata to be a battle between Good and Evil.

Once again, my apologies to all, I just thought it was unfair for the Noble Aryan race to be considered barbarians. :)

Shastram
p.s. i'm closing this discussion, with regards to Fascist patch, I hear that Firaxis is coming out with a upgrade to CivIII, an addition, hopefully they will have the Fundamentalist and Fascist governments in there.... who knows :)

Sorry to all for this OT thread, I was carried away a bit. So I'll not answer what I think about good and evil in Mahabharata, relations of Rakshas and heroes and of cause peacful or barbarian arian invasions.
Sorry to all again.

Okay... this "conversation" on a thread is getting a little out of control... I don't even see the link between the Fascist Patch, Civ3 and the migrations and history of the Aryan race... this seems odd, even for me!

That's what I've been saying! I do, however, apologize for getting involved in the stupid argument even to the limited extent that I was.

Hmmm, yes, it's known that there will be an expansion pack of SOME SORT to Civ3.

Though the "official" contents have not been made public to my knowledge, I can pretty much assure everyone, Fascism will NOT be included in the expansion!!!

In fact, I DARE Firaxis to include it in the expansion (nay, TRIPLE DOG DARE).

Simply put, Firaxis has made themselves as clear as Microprose did before them.

Civ3 is a "family game" and ergo, to make it so, Fascism is not "fun" or "family friendly". Somehow, Firaxis deams that atomic weapons, Communism and 6,000 years of constant warfare is fun and family friendly, but Fascism isn't... go figure.

If Sid Meier ever intended on including Fascism, it would have been done LOOOONG ago... I made the initial Fascist Patch for Civ2 long before ANY expansion packs were ever released... it was VERY POPULAR all over the net, and one of the widest distributed patches for Civ2, and even mentioned in Computer Gaming World magazine... but after all the expansion packs that came out, Fascism was never included in Civ2... then there were the CTP games, both of which included Fascism, and finally, Civ3 came out... and did it come with Fascism as a government type? Nope.

So I seriously doubt it will be included in any expansion pack, but if anyone from Firaxis is reading this post...

I Triple Dog Dare Firaxis to make Fascism an official government option in an expansion pack!

First of all, since governments are so easy to mod, who cares if Firaxis adds extras in their next patch/add-on? Second, does anybody else think that the 'modern' governments are available too early, including Fascism in most of the mods where it is included? I added that bit just to stay within the official thread topic but it is relevant. Democracy comes way too early for historic validity. You can't really have a democracy if you have slaves (ancient Athens, USA until 1865) or a powerful monarch (GB until 18 something) or exclude more than 50% of the population (women, for those of you who don't get out much). So there was no real democracy in the real world until early in the 1900's and New Zealand would appear to have the best claim to being first. So I linked Democracy to electricity and both Fascism and communism have to come a little later than that. That leaves a huge gap - in time - between the ancient governments and the modern ones, so I added a couple of intermediate monarchy based governments to fill the gap - representing monarchy after the Magna Carta and the formation of Parliament. I realize that this is not quite on topic, although closer than Hindu/Aryan mythology, but I wonder how people feel about the 'timing' of when governments become available and what governments should be included - and fascism & theocracy seem obvious omissions?

Well thanks Anglophile, we're getting much better on-topic than Hindu/Aryan mythology.

As for "who cares" if Firaxis makes it official, I personally don't really care, because I have included Fascism pretty darn well, and everyone else can modify it to their own likings if they don't like my interpretation. It's just in an earlier post someone mentioned Firaxis and the expansion packed and commented on the possibility of Fascism becoming "official", that's the only reason why I commented.

As for the timing of late-game governments, I'm not 100% sure if the modern governments come too soon or not. The only thing I believe in is that Fascism should always FOLLOW Communism, and not come before. To me, Fascism is often a counter-government to Communism, often born out of hatred or fear of Communism, which is why I made espionage the pre-req for Fascism, which means you need BOTH Nationalism AND Communism to become Fascist.

Steven,

As you've probably heard by now, Firaxis is releasing a new patch on Friday. I'm not certain if your mod will work with the new patch installed, but in case it doesn't, I just wanted to urge/encourage you to keep updating your mod.

As I mentioned here before, I can't ever recall seeing a modder for any game be on the receiving end of so many vicious ad hominem attacks as you have. So I wouldn't blame you if you just decided to save yourself the aggravation and not continue updating your mod. But just know that there are plenty of people out there, like me, who have used and enjoyed your mod, and would certainly like to continue doing so in the future.

So, keep up the good work. :goodjob:

Dang... yet another patch? Well, I'll definately update the Fascist Patch yet again to ensure compatability.

Like I'd ever quite because of what some other people think!

I'm the last guy in the world to bow to that sort of pressure!

I'll keep an eye out for the patch... write me when it's out in case I miss it!

At last some hipocrit-less opinions. This is becaming an interesting debate.
Must the fascism be included as a goverment?. My opinion is, yes of course.
And I´m not fascist, I´m not racist, I´m not anti-semite, I´m simply pro-historical accuracy. The fascism did have a very important histrorical relevance. If the political correctness blind some persons, I feel sorry for them, get more culture and think it againg.
All the reasons about the tragic trascendent of the fascism were explained beforel by another well informated persons.
I must recognice that some persons here have defended the fascism as a viable goverment option, I´m not agree with them, but the fascism, as a goverment (not as an ideology) was very effective in some fields. For example, their tech developement sistem was even superior to the democracy one. At the end of the war, they not only developed the first V2 bombs, they also created the first reactor plane (the Mershemmit) that was NEVER shooted down, they started the first nutrition programs, they developed the clolour TV, a night visor for the tanks (at the very end of the war, they didn´t have much time to test it), and they had in project an atomic bomb that thanks God they never trew (the US did that for them).
About the stupid reason "buhu, is a so horrible goverment that musn´t be represented", I must say 2 things:
1-THe german fascism wasn´t the only one. All the persons remember this one, but there was also fascist goverments in Italy and Spain, and none of the made a "racial cleaning", even if they repressed all the internal opposition. As a significative anecdot, the Spanish ambassador in Germany saved a lot of jews by giving them "diplomatic inmunance" (and of course noone made a film about him as Spielberg did with Schindler), with the aprovation of the Spain fascist goverment and causing anger of the German fascism. Maybe fascist means "close minded", but this don´t also mean "bloody killer". The semitc hate was a characteristic of the Hitler´s Reich.
2-Too horrible?. Let´s take a critic look to the civilizations here:
Babilonians: THey were punished by God. What else can you say?
Egyptians: THey slaved the jews as Hilter did.
Zulus: THey are commiting racial cleanings in Africa everyday.
English: THey made a protestant inquisition during Cromwell reging, they broke a lot of diplomatic treatys, they colonizated the half of the world...
France: The french revolution were VERY bloody. Napolean started the first massive executions.
Germany: Well, we all know what they did.
Russia: Ask for the Stalinist goverment, or the Zar massive repression.
India: THey have created a second cold war with nuclear weapons with their neightbours (Pakistán).
China: Tianmmen, the red revolution, etc.
Japan: THey also had a fascist goverment. they used Chinese and Koreans for experiments during the WWII.
Iroquoise: Everyone has seen western films, right?. BUt they are not the worst ones...
Aztecs: They made human sacrifices in mass. A mini holocaust each day.
Americans: (...) Vietnam, Hiroshima, Nagashaki, the extermination of their natives, the Cuba war, the support to the south american dictatorships, their slave multinationals, Nixon... etc, etc.
Spain: Let´s be autocritics: THe inquisition, the European wars, the Franco dicatatorsip... etc, etc.
In resume: all goverments and countries all guilty of something. Don´t face it or don´t recognice it is to be hipocrit.

And finally, I must admit that the owner of the webpage looks a bit "fascinated" by the fascist stetic (even If I destest this goverment, I must admit that too that these b*******s had a real good taste)., but this doesn´t mean nothig.
The patch was well balanced (maybe I would have include less production and a science bonus, but anyway), and is a joy to fight against Hitler and stop him. Anyone dis/agree?.

Wolfshanse I just wanted you to know I just visited your site and I am completely disgusted. When I seen those swastika's all over my screen I vomited four times straight, then I read my bible 14 times just to get the thought out of my head, I then proceeded to the phone and promptly called the pope who blessed me of your filth. I honestly thought my monitor was going to explode when all that evil was in my holy presence.:lol: :lol:

Come on Wolfshanze dont leave your fans in the dark, tell us of your progress for the new patch. What's wrong with everyone its like people are to lazy to post or somethin.:rolleyes:

Anowl Nothrak Uss Voss Bethot Dothiowl Denvy:crazyeyes

El gran capitán, I fully agree with you about facism being included in the game, although the facist havnt accounted for much actual time in history their effect (especially the nazis) has had a massive effect on the world and as such MUST be included.

Maybe people need to stop being so damn pathetic. This purile nonsense about not including what was inarguably an evil form of government is stupid and is in itself a form of facist thinking.

'This mod should not be advertised on this page'
'The author is obviously a facist himself'
'Including this form of government encourages people to play the game in a facist mentality'

These kind of comments that ive read in this thread are for me laughable and childish, not to mention quite facist themselves. If you dont like the mod, dont download it but dont try and tell me and others what we can and cant see and play. We have the freedom to do what we want due to a war that killed millions and was fought to grant us the right to freedom. And guess who we were fighting?

Oh and Capitan, Napoleon wasnt responsible for the mass executions of the revolution, they were caused by a succession of popular leaders the bloodiest of which was probably the suave Robespierre, who himself ended up on the guillotine. :)

Kentonio

What about spiritually correct?

WE ARE ALL HEATHANS HERE!

well if we are going to be PC lets be PC nazism and Faschism are not and never were the same.Faschism was a political idea developed from Hegel through an italian philospher Emile Vico;a different version of Marx interpretation of Hegel.It had an organized philosophical base Nazism never did it was a CULT with more similarities to the religious cults of the 20 century than any political ideology...hence the fanatacism and denial of reality it was a new religion with a new jesuit order the SS...If you want to model Nazism look at fundementalism.Ok so Italy and germany were on the same side that doesnt make them the same Finland was in the axis too...also the US and the USSR were on the same side no one ever tries to argue that they are or were the same...
nazism withered without its god/leader..Faschism continued the MSI is still a political force in Modern Italy as are the Peronist parties in Argentina...the reformed Carlist anf Phalange parties exist in Spain....Faschism masy not be popular but it is aviable political idea ....Nazism isnt wasnt wont be it was a CULT with trappings of socialism nationalism and Faschism ....summed up in the catch all party name NSDAP NATIONAL SOCIALIST DEMOCRATIC WORKERS PARTY

Actually NSDAP stood for National Socialist German Workers Party. The "D" comes from Germany being spelled with a D in German- Deutschland

Hello, old Wolfshanze here... sorry for my long absence, but between overseas deployments and other military commitments, I have not had any spare time until now to work on the Fascist Patch.

Well, I finally sat down to "officially" support v1.17f with the Fascist Patch, and to ENSURE complete compatability, I put a fresh install of Civ3 on my computer and a fresh upgrade to v1.17f, so that nothing was tainted.

I then proceeded to do all the necessary changes using the built-in Civ3Edit program, added Fascism, and did all the other needed changes, then tried to run the game, and it popped up saying:

SCENARIO VERSION INVALID
Invalid scenario version
Version 3.00 is no longer compatible

"What the heck is that" I said. I've never had a problem using the editor before, especially off a clean install... I thought maybe something went wrong, so I uninstalled, reinstalled the game, and the v1.17f patch, then used the editor again and got the exact same error message.

I know I've been gone a long time, but what the heck happened? Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss something? Until I figure this thing out, I can't "officially" support the v1.17f patch!

Someone help please?!?!

Okay, never mind the above post... the bright people at Firaxis saw fit to include the wrong version of the editor in their own download of the v1.17f patch.

Anyhoo, I have successfully updated the Fascist Patch to "officially" support the v1.17f Firaxis Civ3 patch... it can be downloaded now at the Fascist Patch website (as evil as it's reputation is).

So go download v2.1 and v2.1NH now!

Is there anyway to stack your patch with IceBlaze's Israel-Decorruption and Realism- patch? I want to have a game with both Nazi Germany/Fascism and the Israelis.

Yes, there certainly is a way, but I don't forsee myself doing it, because adding any new Civs is not anything I'm doing with this patch.

I'm not sure how in-depth the Israeli patch by itself is, but what I would do if I were you, is see which one is more "complicated" a patch, and simply use it as the base, and import the easier patch's rules/changes into it yourself.

Okay, as of 20 April 2002, release 2.2 of the Fascist Patch is out with full support of the official 1.21f version of Civ3.

First of all, I haven't read all the posts, since the texts are very long and almost go about the same. So I like to give my impression on the 'longlasting' post...

(note that i'm not a facist myself, too...)

Why is Communism in Civ3 and Facism isn't? The Germans killed six million judes. So? Stalin's frenzies killed over 20 million. The normal people didn't have to be afraid for the Germans when they followed the rules and didn't hide any illigals. A very lot of people in the SU were killed, just becouse Stalin feared them. He even ordered his army to kill an entire Russian that was on their way to conquer Berlin in 1945, becouse Stalin was afraid the army commander would became to famous.
There are very other bod things about the sovjets.

I think the attitude to this mod from a few people on this topic really stinks. If they don't like it, then let them leave. They aren't forced to download it!

In theory, the facistic idea could be quite successfull. Note that, if the Germans slowed down the advance on russia a bit, entire Europa should be conquered by them. And them we should still be talking german at this very moment in my country (holland).
...........

<more to come since a lack of time>

Why is this even a such a big deal to people? Its a swell new form of goverment.....In fact you really would have to tone it down a bit just to keep the game play balanced I would think. Maybe make it so most other countries automatically dislike you a little bit more. I dunno I think its a swell idea! Some of you people are way to PC. I for one love playing the world map with all the big players of WWII. I think its kinda cool to rewrite history. I mean you don't see people flinch that much when you mention the Romans or the soviets.....But mention WWII Germany and everyone has a heated opinion. To tell the truth if Nazi Germany had not been so into the whole mass-murder thing who wouldn't support going after the evil commies......Or the stinking French for that matter ;)

BTW: A little off subject.....Does anyone have a huge earth map with all the proper starting locations....But without any kind of rules/unit changes?

That's what Facism was about murdering other races. If it was not for the depression in the early 30's facism would not have gotten off the ground. The Corporal would have remained a not so good painter.

It's a good thing that the only "bad" form of government was Fascism... after all, we all know the Communists never hurt a fly (ahem, 20-million dead Russians), or that the Democratic Americans or the Roman Republic never instituted mass slavery, or that the Spanish Monarchy never had the inquisition.

Get over it... the history of mankind does not need a form of government to commit barbarity... they find ways under any system to do it, so why the mass-murdering communists or slave-owning democracies and republics get to be represented, but the Fascists don't, that's a very odd form of selective history making.

Best running thread on this site.

Thanks for the update to v1.21.

If this guy's site upsets you, pisses you off, makes you sick, etc. . . GOOD . . . you should go back and visit it every so often . . . get a reality check on how bad things really could be in this world if:

1.) Hitler had decided not to invade the Soviet Union.
2.) Germany had been the size of the United States.
3.) The genuine German military leadership had been allowed to run the war.
4.) All the Pacific fleet's aircraft carriers had been in port on the morning of December 7th, 1941.
5.) Adolf had transferred control of those reserve panzer divisions to one of his generals prior to taking a nap on D day.
6.) Italy had been an effective military power.
7.) etc. etc. etc....

And please keep in mind that Hitler and his cronies didn't shove millions of poor souls into those gas ovens all by themselves. "Just following orders" was the pat answer at the Nuremberg trials, much as it still is today.

Democracy didn't decimate the Native American Indian population . . . an apathetic, if not altogether amiable, acceptance of greed induced attitudes based on self-interest did. The rest was simply socio-babble, designed to lubricate the wheels of self-vindicating mental masturbation for the masses. All of which only goes to show that a specific government type does not, in and of itself, denote evil. It is, rather, those who utilize it to further their own twisted ambitions that corrupt any and all forms of government. (i.e. ideological Communism is a truly great idea [work according to your ability; take according to your need] but it doesn't work in reality for all the reasons I've mentioned above.) Actually, we here in America appear to becoming more and more Fascist ourselves (especially since Sept. 11th). But then, it is my opinion that if Fascism does slither its way into this country it will undoubtedly be called 'Patriotism'.

There, that should piss off just about everybody.

Good MOD. Although, based on historical recollection, perhaps corruption should be higher.

Sobering site, which does, I feel, capture the real essence of the period; and, as scary as that may be, gives us an uncanny insight into the actual fanatical reality of such a moment in history.

Besides, when I play civIII I want to compete against (and kick the crap out of) the most evil rat bastards the world has to offer . . . and Adolf is, undoubtedly, one of the worst. ES

PS: and just for the record, I'm not prejudiced . . . I hate everybody equally.


.:alien: :alien: :alien: :alien: :borg: :alien: :alien: :alien: :alien:.
RESISTANCE IS . . . DESIRED

Well said... especially the fact that a government in and of itself is not evil, merely the people in charge... if Hitler was president of the United States, would he have been any less evil?

its just crazy what a big deal your al making of this. i myself am and find no problem in what this patch is doing. if you dont like this patch, dont downlod, if you dont like thi post, dont look at it, and then dont post replies to it, pushing it up for more people to see. this patch makes things more historically correct, but if you would prefer not to d/l it, dont. its that simple, dont waste this sites space wth your opinion, save it for a site designed for that, if yu are anti-facist, thats fine, i agree with you, but we dont need to hear it here. i dont plan on d/l'ing this patch, but thats because im not interested in another form of gvnt, if i wasi wuld d/l it. please keep your opinoins to yourself, or keep them somewhere else.:eek: :confused: :cry: :mad: :rolleyes:

Hey chester,

I see you had no qualms about leaving YOUR opinion here.

And you really need to get yourself a spell checker. ;) ES




.:alien: :alien: :alien: :alien: :borg: :alien: :alien: :alien: :alien:.
RESISTANCE IS . . . DESIRED

I am open minded and wanted to try it, but decided against it for the reason that it overwrites stuff in the Civ3 folder. I'd definitely try a version that didn't. :rolleyes:

All in all, I liked what I've read about it.
Just my opinion.

:goodjob:

I don't know of any mods that don't require at least a single file to be overwritten.

Bottom line, if you wanna make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs.

What's the big fear anyways, you have the master CD!

I guess you're right, Wolfshanze. No sense of adventure.

Here goes. I'll install the patch when it completes download.
:egypt:

Well I did manage to download and install it and I would like to say this is a great addition. Right now I am crushing the stinking French with my panzers and after I mop them up I am thinking the English will be next...Hmmmmm....If only my stupid buddies in Japan where not all the way over in South America......Anyhow it is a sweet add-on and shame on you close minded people with your petty critical #$@%. And yes I also enjoy beating people with a bat in Grand Theft Auto....I get alot of guilty pleasure out of these games. :-) Maybe I was not held enough as a child...Maybe too much. Maybe I just babble to much......
Anyway great patch!!!

I downloaded the full patch (where Hitler is included) and installed according to the readme. Everything works fine, except for one small hitch... the military advisor screen is black??? I can't make out hardly anything. Help please.

Fascism works as a gov. I am not sure if my computer opponents tried it, but I went all out playing the Germans and dominating.
Now time to try out Regent level or Monarch. <evil grin>

One note, I don't think it's feasible to do but when you hurry/rush something and the population shrinks... The foreign nationals should be wiped out first not your population. It might not be possible to do.

Further, let me add my thanks to those who made or contributed to a great mod. Another government type is just what Civ3 needed.
I am not saying I condone Fascism and want to join a neo-nazi party. Even if you don't like Fascism I would still recommend this mod. Give the computer another way to challenge you. Let the computer be the bad guy if you don't wanna try Fascism. As far as war-mongering goes, It's better than Monarchy or Republic. In peace time Democracy is still top-notch but the war weariness thing can be crippling.

Thanks again. :goodjob: :king:

The military advisor screen is not modified in any way, shape or form in the Fascist Patch (any version), so any problem you have with said screen should not have originated from the Fascist Patch (none of the changes in the Fascist Patch have anything to do with the advisor screen).

One note of importance, the current version of the Fascist Patch was made specifically for the official v1.21 release of Civ3, so you need to make sure you upgraded Civ3 to v1.21 BEFORE installing the Fascist Patch.

If you are still having problems with any aspect of the game, I highly suggest uninstalling and re-installing the game, then apply the official v1.21 patch, THEN LASTLY, apply the Fascist Patch.

As for any nutcases who thinks people to be Fascists just for using this patch, remember that these same people have no qualms about simulating their military armies slaughtering entire civilizations in the name of Democracy, or dropping Atom Bombs left and right, radiating millions of people.

It's a GAME people, not real life, so drop the righteousness.

The first game I played the military advisor screen was dark. I don't know how or why... next game everything work great.
No complaints. (weird) Must say I like it and enjoy it.

Thank you again for your hard work.:goodjob: :egypt:

I just downloaded the patch and it seems to be working great, good job Wolf,

for further decision of the Fascist/Nazi government model, you might research what is now know as "The Third Way".

Is there anyway to get this patch to work with Marla Singer's World Map? The rules on that scenario have been altered and makes this patch useless... but I love that map with accurate starting positions. I mean, who wants to see America and Nazi Germany as neighbors?

I would rather have it with the kittenofchaos mod. Is there any way to make that happen?