Welcome to your SGOTM1 game thread.


First some procedural stuff.
Although the rules for SGOTM have not been set in stone yet, we will be playing to the rules listed >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1733966#post1733966)
Please take the time to read them.

Here is a reminder of your start position
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/civ3gotm1b.jpg

Here are the two saves.

SGOTM1-CivIII1.29f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1NAME-4000BC.SAV)

SGOTM1-PTW1.27f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1PTWNAME-4000BC.SAV)

IMPORTANT REMINDER
The file naming format that you use to pass the game on must be rigidly adhered to in order to prevent games getting mixed up.

Name your save files like this

SGOTM1TEAMNAME-DATE.SAV

For example - SGOTM1STAFF-3000BC.SAV

Later on it may be possible to submit the saved games through the GOTM server for scoring purposes. Alanh will have special requirements for doing this which will be made clear at that time.

Roster

Bugs
denyd
Rowandlive
grahamiam
Leibnitz

The order shown above is not the order you must play. When you have decided on your order of play I will amend the Roster above.

The first player plays to the end of the 3000BC turn (turn 20)
Everyone else plays 10 turns from there. Please try to stick to this. People finishing on the wrong turn is my biggest headache beleive it or not.

EDIT: 3000BC is turn 20 of course.

OK, straight coast lines from N to W and from E to S, each 1 tile out, a fur and a BG. I'd recommend against going N, as it puts us on a point. If we want coastal, then IMHO moving 1 NW or 1 SE is the way to go, as we will still get both bonus tiles after growth, which comes up pretty quick. If we don't want coastal, then settle in place.

Otherwise, we need to finish our goals discussion.

haha, i get to post 1st! :D

btw, i have to go out of town to visit family Fri-Sun so please either place me 1st/2nd or last in the order (i don't mind opening but realize R&L asked for the privledge)

also, please tell me more about playing without starting wars. the only time i did that was my very 1st game and i nearly fell asleep at the end.

thanks,
grahamiam

damn, R&L beat me :)

Hi,

is it possible to play in the format civ1.29f? Im resticted to this.

Originally posted by grahamiam
(i don't mind opening but realize R&L asked for the privledge)

I didn't request to go first, but I certainly don't mind either. No greediness here.

the only time i did that was my very 1st game and i nearly fell asleep at the end.

Unless you're in conquest mode, the late game is always somewhat of a bore. That's why I either try to kill it off in the MA, or drop it for a new start if it gets too bad.


I have no problem with vanilla 1.29. Team?

It was mentioned that a never at war game can get a little blah in the end (workers clearing pollution is not very exciting), but trying to figure out how to get > 100K during the same turn with the launch and vote is a real brain churner. There isn't any bonus for a never at war game, so we might want to skip that if a high finish is a team goal.

Another possible is a variant on the 5CC, where we can only build 5 cities, but additional cities may be captured. (just stirring the pot :D) (also no scoring bonus)

Check out this thread for an example (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59366)

Is this going to be PTW or Vanilla?

I can play both.

i can play both too but it will have to be vanilla so we can all play. i think that's better since the original was played with this :)

I like the idea with the three victory conditions :)

Never thought about this before. What do you think: Will we have to slow down our spaceship progress or selling cultural improvements?

It really all depends on how many cities you have pumping our culture and how many tech partners you have contributing to the research of advanced techs.

Sometimes you're selling off culture buildings, sometimes your overbuilding the last spaceship part and sometimes you have to do both to wait for the UN election to come up.

I don't remember anything about this, but being that this is a small map on regent, we might have to really crowd in the cities to get enough culture for the 100k. I'm also pretty sure the tech pace is sped up a small map. So we'll probably be waiting for culture to arrive rather than having to sell off any buildings.

One more thing to make this tough is we'll probably have to build every culture producer in each city and that gets expensive. We may need to slow down the science because we can't afford to research at maximum.

All in all, a triple whammy (space/diplomacy/culture) is a tough path on this map. Anybody want to modify the objective to UN & Space only and let wars happen as needed?

I think we're committed to playing this in vanilla.

Let's go with this roster:

R & L - UP
grahamiam - On Deck
denyd
Leibnitz
Bugs

Leibnitz, I think this is your first SG, so welcome aboard. I'll sandwich you between denyd and myself for grins.

So it sounds like we have some question as to what our variant will be. I think trying to get a spaceship and 100K will be a challenge. But to get 100K without war on a small map (I think this is a small map) will be difficult. 20K is very do-able on Regent.

I think the other thing we will want to discuss is the start. I don't see a lot of reason to move off the start tile. It isn't like there is a shortage of forest tiles about. What does the team think?

ok, i guess we're still waiting for Bugs to check in before starting or getting the roster setup. As far as victory conditions go, I say we shoot for all 3 and see how it goes. If we find that we can't do it, then we can always change course.

question: how often do UN votes come up? is it every 10T? answers not urgent, i think we still may have some time :)

Not having done these types of games, I don't have a feel for how this really goes, but it sounds complicated. Is complicated better / more fun, or just something to cover up boredom? Spaceship can be exciting if you're in a race, or if you're threatened with nukes. Diplo you're never really sure (except maybe in Bugs1), and do mucho gifting, but it is enjoyable. Trying to do both as well as culture just sounds frustrating. I'll certainly go along as the group decides, but perhaps a 5CC spaceship is OK too.

Of course, from what Denyd just said, it sounds like a good excercise in how to slow down the tech pace, while upping the culture pace, and still being able to build the SS in time. I must admit that I was recently impressed with the 5CC dual 20K and 100K win that Bamspeedy (IIRC) pulled off.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think the other thing we will want to discuss is the start. I don't see a lot of reason to move off the start tile. It isn't like there is a shortage of forest tiles about. What does the team think?
I'd at least like to take a look around by moving the worker to the southern hill. Maybe there's some fresh water nearby and we can irrigate that game.

I played a 20K in GOTM 22 and it was very challenging. It would be even more so if you don't get any leaders, or very few. The key to that will be getting a very early second city.

The culture and space goals work against each other, which might make things very interesting.

Got it.

I'll try to start tomorrow night, and post on Thursday night. I don't remember, but was this a 30 turn start? Or was than a different thread?

You are going to play until the end of the 3000 BC turn. Everyone else will play 10 turns.

I think that is a beaver AKA furs. I don't see any food. Moving to the southern hill sounds like a good idea. The northern hill looks like it will show coast-forest-forest

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think that is a beaver AKA furs. I don't see any food. Moving to the southern hill sounds like a good idea. The northern hill looks like it will show coast-forest-forest
right! looks like i need a new prescription :)

i would like to throw out a couple of ideas to the team to see what we all think.

re: research: thinking about this last night and, imho, our best bet would be pottery, alpha, writing, CoL, Philosophy (in that order) all at max (with profit), then research Republic (min or max, depending on game situation). This will get us to our ideal AA-MA bob-the-builder/research gov't asap. All other tech's we can trade for and, hopefully, we can get CB fairly early. I'm assuming that the AI will get at least to HBR and IW by the time we have Republic. Once the shackles of despotism are off us, we can look at the tech tree and decide what we want to research next. we will also be able to get all the other AI's into republic faster, thus increasing thier research abilities.

re: wonders: we start with BW and Mas, so we can go for Colossus fairly early if we wish. This will boost our income thus increasing research. not sure about the worthiness of any others at this point. Pyramids would be ok but i don't think we'll be large enough to benefit. GLib provides lots of culture but the shield investment is large and we probably won't get many tech's from it. GLight will be useless on this map and provides less culture than a library. HGardens will probably be out of reach if we go for Republic as outlined above. Great Wall is overpriced for what it does.

anyways, these are just ideas to kick around. main goal early, of course, is to expand and find everyone which we should be able to do fairly quickly with the size of the map.

good luck R&L :)

I have a question. We have 2 future city sites at 5 out to maximize tiles. We could go denser, but all it will gain us is water. Unfortunately, the S city will be landlocked with many tiles, and the N city will be coastal / canal with only 1 BG + 4G and further from the map center. No way to get fish off of Persepolis corner. (I'd do a screenshot, but no idea how to capture the image.)

4000BC – 1
Move Ann S to hill. See 3 more furs, with the initial fur being the upper right of a square on the diagonals.
Found Persepolis on start tile, exposing that the 2 forest NE are coastal. There is a peninsula extending to the NW from immed N of the city.
Persepolis > warrior in 5.
Research to Alpha in 34.

3950 - 2
Ann NE.

3900 - 3
Ann NE.

3850 – 4
Ann mines.

3800 – 5
Zzzzzz

3750 – 6
Persepolis: warrior > warrior in 5
Al NE. See peninsula with a wide band of coast, so it could be a bridge. Otherwise sea is 1 out.

3700 – 7
Al NE. Ann roads.

3650 – 8
Al W. Oh yes, definitely a bridge!

3600 – 9
Al NW, sees GH NNW. Ann WSW. Fish on Persepolis corner. :sad:

3550 – 10
Persepolis: warrior > settler in 10, grow in 1.
Push Lux to 10%.
Al NE. Ben S. Ann road.

IBT – we expand. See another GH SSW of Ben.

3500 – 11
Ben S. Al N – Assyrians teach us pottery. Peninsula continues N.
Switch Persepolis to warrior in 3, since otherwise settler in 9, but grow in 10.

3450 – 12
Al N – land widening. Ben SW – Parthians teach us WC.

3400 – 13
furs linked to Persepolis.
Ben SW, sees another fur 4SW1S from Persepolis. Al N, sees 2 spices to W. Ann SW.

3350 – 14
Persepolis: warrior > settler in 10, @2, grow in 7.
Ann road. Ben SW. Al N, reaches point – now to follow spices.
Cam ENE.

3300 – 15
Ben S, spots another choke point SSE. Cam SW. Al SW.

3250 – 16
Al W, bridge continues. Ann S. Ben S. Cam 1W2SW.

3200 – 17
Cam SW. Ann road. Ben SE. Al W, sees end of point, but land across single tile.

3150 – 18
Al W – sees 3 mountains, 2 hills, 1 desert, 1 ?grass? across straight. Can SW. Ben S, land widens.
Our problem is definitely no water…

3100 – 19
Cam S. Ben S. Al E. Ann S.
MM Persepolis to get settler in 4, grow in 4.

3050 - 20
Cam E. Ben S. Al SE. Ann W.

3000 - 21
Ann road. Cam E, can see fringe of coast tile across sea to E. Al NE. Cam S, sees dk green expanded border & 3 tiles (2G, 1 game). Space Race would indicate Aztecs. (Others Zulu, Babs, Iroquois, America) Sees another game 2 beyond border.

SUMMARY:
Score 53
Persepolis @2, grow in 2, settler in 2. 3 warriors, 1 worker. Want +1 worker, IMHO.
Zimbabwe, Salamance @3; rest @1. We’re 3rd in population, land area & productivity, so only 2 have built. 4th in GNP, 2nd in approval, Mfg Goods & Fam Size.

Alphabet due in 7, only short CB & wheel on first tier.
Aztecs on same landmass to S – should rush settler (due in 3) down to found a blocking city, IMHO. Probably on hill 1 N of Cam.

Enjoy!

RowAnd Live - please play another turn. You take the game at the end of turn zero and play to the end of 3000BC.

Once you have done this could you post the Firaxis score too please? Thanks. :D

MB, I have to go 30 turns, right? So 11 more. I just wanted to ask about planting a city, and find out how to capture the screen.

Thanks.

Oops, sorry. 1 more turn, RIGHT!

Originally posted by RowAndLive
(I'd do a screenshot, but no idea how to capture the image.)


when in the game, hit alt + print screen. Then, got to "Paint" and hit cntrl+v (paste) and the screen should show up. you then need to save it as a JPG file and upload it to the Upload 7 folder on CFC (or another website of your choice).

You can then add it to a post per the instructions on the SG forum thread.

btw, nice turns :) and i will get it after you finish and will play tonight.

The save:

The screen:

wow! i take back all i ever said about the GLight. i didn't realize we would be so isolated.

good job getting the screen up R&L! it's a pain to learn but easy once figured out :)

Actually, it was easier than I thought, as I just did it the same way I attached the save file - in the attach block at the bottom of of the posting block - and it worked! I did get some brief message about something or other not being allowed or not working, but it didn't stay up long enough for me to read it.
=======================

You can see on the map where the road leading south ends, with a worker 2SW of that last road. My original intent was to build city 2 on the hill E of the worker, and S of the road end. The worker is roading in prep for planting that city. Problem 1 - no coastal access, but good shields. Problem 2 - Aztecs to S, and a need to block their expansion. I don't remember if the mini was included in the image, but if not, it is pretty clear that we're on a board spanning landmass with water access only at the N end, and perhaps the S end to. As such, we will likely be a target for others looking to plant canal cities.

City 3 was to be built N of the woods, NE of the BG on the minorly expanded land to the N of the capital. It will also serve as a canal. City 4 could be on the N end of the S choke point.

Your choice on where to found Pasgardae, but my vote is going S to block, on the hill farther N from Monty's capital, and closer to the choke. That will grab all of the tiles there, preventing an end run without trespassing. You could also send Cam S to block that lower choke point.

Also, Monty will have CB, so trade him pottery if poss, and avoid BW. Then we'll just need wheel, but if we block fast enough, we should be able to keep any potential horse and iron for ourselves. Of course, it must be a given that there will be no iron in our territory....

Well this is different! Some thoughts.

1. We need map making and we need it as soon as possible. Initially it was thinking that going for Alphabet first was :smoke: , but it is turning out to be a great move.

2. We need to get our next city on the chokepoint, and we need to get some cities south of the choke then back fill. We should place a warrior on the choke until we get a city.

3. Water is going to be a huge issue. If there is water south of the Aztecs we can have a large irrigation project, but that won't happen until the ADs.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
You can see on the map where the road leading south ends, with a worker 2SW of that last road. My original intent was to build city 2 on the hill E of the worker, and S of the road end. The worker is roading in prep for planting that city. Problem 1 - no coastal access, but good shields. Problem 2 - Aztecs to S, and a need to block their expansion. I don't remember if the mini was included in the image, but if not, it is pretty clear that we're on a board spanning landmass with water access only at the N end, and perhaps the S end to. As such, we will likely be a target for others looking to plant canal cities.

problem #3, no food. if you look at the suggested location, we will have 2 plains, 3 hills, 3 desert, maybe 1 forrest with furs. I don't see how this city can get beyond a size 2 since we can't irrigate anything. I suggest the location S, SE (hill) of the lost worker. At least there's grass there and access to water (food when harbor is built). It'll also act as a canal and somewhat of a southern block.

Northern location sounds fine. We may also want a city distance 3 SW on the furs so we can get to the fish and a grass. this will increase corruption on cities further out but will add the fish once it expands.

blocking further south may be fruitless. It appears to be the Aztec capitol and should be producing a settler soon. imho, I'd rather have a city closer by, adding to our research right now than a far off, flip risk city that is high in corruption. also, settlers will be few and far between with this land so we must concentrate them around our core as best as possible.

imho, map making should be researched after writing as we'll need the galleys to meet other civ's and harbors for food.

Flip risk won't be an issue. The Aztecs don't usuualy build a lot of culture right away. One temple will keep a city from flipping.

The Aztecs will be a military risk with their Jags. A chokepoint city with three military units will keep us safe.

A good rule of thumb is to expand towards the opposing civs and then back fill. We will have limited land. We need to grab as much as possible.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
A good rule of thumb is to expand towards the opposing civs and then back fill. We will have limited land. We need to grab as much as possible.
ok, but it will take us 2 + 10 turns to get down there. i see your point about grabing as much land as possible. personally, i'd rather have a 2nd city before then but will do whatever the team wishes :)

I agree on the land grab. Also, Grahamiam, thanks for the food analysis - I didn't think of that (obviously)! In that case, when backfill time comes, we can plant a city on each coast. I agree on the change in tech development - it just makes sense. Once we block the choke, speed won't be a horrendous issue, but we may still want to pursue wheel after MM to get us the 2mp units.

As far as seeing an Aztec settler soon, since the cap is @1, I'm guessing that he already spawned it, and I'm hoping that it went S. If not, we can out-race the settler to the choke - just not it's escort. :)

Originally posted by grahamiam

ok, but it will take us 2 + 10 turns to get down there. i see your point about grabing as much land as possible. personally, i'd rather have a 2nd city before then but will do whatever the team wishes :)

ANother way to think of it is that you get a few less-corrupt turns out of the city before planting in between. If you just want tiles, then at the distance given, we'll be planting #3 at about the same time as #2.

Well, so much for playing a peaceful game :o

It looks like Montezuma just got a giant target painted on his chest.

I think Writing->Iron Working->Map Making is the way to go. Keep building settlers in the capital and send that first settler S to the grassland choke point (use a warrior to block it for now) to give us a chance to expand before the wars start. We can research Map Making while the Immortals are removing the Aztecs. We'll need to start building veteran warriors in all of the new cities. Once Iron Working is in, drop research to minimum to build up the bank for Immortal upgrades. We'll can take out the Aztecs with 4-6 Immortals, if we are quick enough. The bad news is that means a really early Golden Age.
The good news is if we do that, we might have the whole island to ourselves.

I'd still like to shoot for a Space/Diplo combo victory (culture probably is out with this little dirt), but we'll need to start out with some :hammer: to grab enough land to have a shot at it.

Remember this is Vanilla civ, so slaves are cheaper, Monotheism/Nationalism/Ecology are the bonus techs (we are scientific), no MDI or Rambo units and no Internet/Commercial Dock/Stock Exchange.

Whatever we do, I'm glad we cancelled our peaceful game plans.

R & L - Just played
grahamiam - UP
denyd - On Deck
Leibnitz
Bugs

I agree with Denyd that culture is out with this shield poor land.

We can't buy any workers until 1000 BC, unless we can prove that a civ has at least two others.

delete post, stupid question. he used F11 at the end of his turns. good tactic.

If they have a settler, I bet it is waiting for an escort. Good question on how he figured that out though. F11?

As to a team motto:

"Well, that's no ordinary rabbit, That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on." (http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Monty_Python=mp11.wav)

Originally posted by denyd
As to a team motto:

"Well, that's no ordinary rabbit, That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on." (http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Monty_Python=mp11.wav)
;) ;), :nudge: :nudge:

You tit! I soiled my armour I was so scared!

Originally posted by grahamiam
delete post, stupid question. he used F11 at the end of his turns. good tactic.

Thanks! I susally do it at the end of every turn to see when and how many settlers / workers are being spawned, but for some reason I forgot to do that here.

Nice to hear that we have cancelled the peaceful plans.

I agree that blocking the choke point is first priority.
I also agree that we should research IW before MM to eliminate Montezuma asap.

luckily, this is regent. this would actually be difficult if higher.

here is the 2550BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_2550bc.sav)

Preflight check: MM Persepolis off hill and onto roaded fur. Research time drops from 7T to 6T. Increase sci slider to 100% and time drops to 5T. Damn, worker has used up his movement for this turn. I would have moved him NE so we could shave 2T off southern movement of settler to the south. oh well, guess i'll let him finish so we can have 5 roaded tiles headed south. should improve warrior/immortal migration south.

T1: 2950BC
Meet the Aztec. They have CB and 2 cities (cap + 1), we have Mas. They are willing to do a straight up trade but I hold off since they don't have any gold.

T2: 2900BC
Persepolis settler -> barracks allow research to continue at -1gpt. Warrior moves SE into Aztec territory

IBT: Aztecs ask us to leave, ok, no problemo

T3: 2850BC
settler continues south, warrior waits for him. Worker finishes road and moves NE, aztec's still polite :)

T4: 2800BC
Setter/warrior move south, worker begins roading plain

T5: 2750BC
Settler/warrior move south (I miss my group move button :( ); warrior near aztec moves onto hill and spots a cow. Adjust slider so we make +0gpt vs -1gpt.

IBT: learn alpha, research writing at min since max research will do it in 40T anyways.

T6: 2710BC
worker moves to woods S of city, warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T7: 2670BC
worker chops, warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T8: 2630BC
warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T9: 2590BC
Pasargadae founded at choke (canal location). I like this position as it will allow a city to be built later that has access to the game to the south. Set to build worker. Income jumps to +4gpt so I adjust sci slider to get writing in 32T vs 37T.

IBT: palace gets a facelift

T10: 2550BC
warrior explores and has obviously run into a pennisula. Will need to move south thru Aztecs to see if anyones down there.

Notes: worker chop appears perfectly timed to give us the barracks as soon as the pop increases. That should allow the next player to start building the 2nd settler. We make 3spt so it should be 10T :( maybe some MM can help but I can't see it. Worker probably should road some grass so we can get some more gold while building the 2nd settler.

Monty still hasn't built up any gold so next player might want to trade for CB.

Final note: R&L, I noticed that you had renamed the units but I cannot find that option in Civ3. it's been a while since i've played vanilla civ but i can't remember this option being available. did you play with PTW?

visuals. as you can see, this is our sleepy little empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs2550.JPG

Things are looking good. I wonder what is to the south. I like where you placed Pasagardae grahamian. I wonder if there is any water on this land mass. This may turn into a battle over water rights.

R & L
grahamiam - Just played
denyd - UP
Leibnitz - On Deck
Bugs

i was thinking about this game last night and, imho, i believe that the best build for our capitol right now is a granery, rather than a barracks. i don't think we can go on with 20T between settlers. with a granery, we can cut it in half to 10T. not great (not even really good) but better. i'd hate to start a GA with only 3 cities. that will completely mess up this game. denyd, if you agree with this, then please change :)

with the chop, we should finish the granery in 9T which will be good because we'll be 3T from size 3 and the granery will fill. we can build a warrior then settler in 13T. roads and mines on the grass should help too.

also, when do the barb's show up? i expected to find some camps but didn't. maybe we ought to get that northern warrior back to the capitol to provide cover in case a camp pops up between our cities. iirc, vanilla civ barbs go directly for the cities or units, they're not as erratic as in PTW.

Originally posted by grahamiam
Preflight check: MM Persepolis off hill and onto roaded fur. Research time drops from 7T to 6T. Increase sci slider to 100% and time drops to 5T. Damn, worker has used up his movement for this turn. I would have moved him NE so we could shave 2T off southern movement of settler to the south. oh well, guess i'll let him finish so we can have 5 roaded tiles headed south. should improve warrior/immortal migration south.

I had hill being worked to get the settler in 4 instead of in 5 if I worked the fur. The city would have grown in 3 on the fur, but I wanted the settler sooner. Also, I had sent a post at 9:25am, before completing that next-to-last turn to ask about city placement, and you responded at 9:45, but didn't address the question. I edited my post at 10:01am, deleting the question and including the final play information, moving the worker and started roading the furs.

Final note: R&L, I noticed that you had renamed the units but I cannot find that option in Civ3. it's been a while since i've played vanilla civ but i can't remember this option being available. did you play with PTW?

No, I just named them in my posting so that it would be easier for people to trace back what was done. I played in vanilla.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
I had hill being worked to get the settler in 4 instead of in 5 if I worked the fur. The city would have grown in 3 on the fur, but I wanted the settler sooner. Also, I had sent a post at 9:25am, before completing that next-to-last turn to ask about city placement, and you responded at 9:45, but didn't address the question. I edited my post at 10:01am, deleting the question and including the final play information, moving the worker and started roading the furs.
yes, but i didn't see the pic till after the question ;) no worry, though. i just like to post in a "stream of conscience" way. that allows others to critique and show where i've made a mistake in my thinking.
i see your point regarding the settler & working the furs, though you can see that somewhat diligent MM'ing does have it's rewards :)

I got it

Plans for my little 10 turn rule:

1. Switch Persepolis to Granary and build ASAP (w/o rushing)
2. Switch Pasagarde to Barracks and build ASAP (w/o rushing)
3. Build as many Vet Warriors as possible in Pasagarde
4. Keep our exploring warrior moving to see what's out there
5. Research Writing at minimum then Iron Working
6. Try to add a couple more cities to our empire
7. Stay out of any wars

I took a first shot at a dot map for our little nation

Red first for barracks and more vet warriors
Blue next same plan, this is also our southern canal city
One of the Orange dots is next (also a canal city), which dot is chosen is based on if any BG are available (can't tell from picture)
Green is next on the dyes (that's 2 luxuries)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs_dot1.jpg

Given the poor food situation I was thinking a slightly denser build. For example we're not using the fish. I'll draw one up . BTW, canal cities are not going to be lacking. Pasargadae is a canal city already.

nice dotmap, however, red dot is not ideal. i believe, based on the location, it will only grow to size 2 (can't build a harbor to get 2 food from coast) so you may want to rethink. I would suggest 2 cities on the coast and R&L and I discussed yesterday. 1 tile in almost any direction will work a little better (i prefer 1 tile W :) ).

we may also want to consider the location 3 tiles SW, on the fur. this will give us the fish and can share a grass (we're not gonna be bigger than size 6 for a while).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs2550_proposal.jpg

This is just a proposal. Like Denyd, it is hard to see if any of the tiles to the north are BGs. I don't think they are. This plan will make sure we don't have any wasted tiles. Later in the game they can all become fishing villages for the commerce.

Red dot grabs the fish on expansion. The black dots are tundra cities. Obviously we'll want to grab the dyes.

Thoughts?

iirc, blue is on the BG. 1 tile NE is just grass. nice work on the dotmaps, both of you :) bugs' layout to the south is what i had in mind.

So we'll want to shift the blue dot probably 1 NE. There is just so little dirt to work with. Maybe that's why this was a regent game.

I liked the blue spot as a canal city, but I missed that Pasagarde can already do that.

Good point about the fish, we shouldn't waste any bonus that's available.

My dots were based more on the what I think is best for the Industrial Age and beyond. I'm so used to planning for large late game cities, that's how I tend to place them in the early part of the game. Unless we get some fresh water somewhere, these are all max size 6 cities anyway.

Considering we might never make it to the Modern Age unless we decide on a multi-type win, were better off with the Bugs layout.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the red or pink end up as the FP city with the Palace moving somewhere with more dirt. It's a good thing this is Regent. On emperor+ this would be a very difficult setup.

We should probably skip temples (unless 100k is a goal) and wait for libraries for our culture building.

That's something we probably should decide upon now. What is our target victory condition? If culture is included, we'll need some early temples & libraries.

AW is out and so is OCC, I don't really like the xCC games (too limiting). All other variants are ok with me and any of the victory conditions sounds fine.

We could try a get them all type finish. Have a game where the UN, Space, culture, histograph & conquest (domination doesn't count) all happen at the same time. Not sure if it's ever been done or if it's even possible. Something tells me from looking at the results of the first time this was played, that it wasn't that difficult of a game to win. We'd probably have 100+ turns to set it up after we reach the domination limit (but we'd need early culture to set it up).

conquest + space should be doable fairly easily.
getting timed with a 100K win would be pretty tricky, especially as an SG, but doable.
conquest + UN i don't think can be achieved unless we do some spectacular planning and trap settlers on mountains or have 3 small civ's left with huge army's next door that can wipe them out in 1 turn. getting the 3 to vote for us may be tricky if we've knocked them down so low. however, if we do it early enough, we may be able to get them on our side.
conquest + space + histiograph is doable but will take a long time.

btw, how do we submit a multi win game? do we submit multi saves for the same date with different victory types?

Just end the game each way and submit the different splash screens and saves and MB will credit us with a multi-type win. If I remember the rules correctly, different variants combine the bonuses, so getting 3 types at the same time might (should) be a 20% bonus and 4 types a 30%. If he's using the Jason calculator, we'll need all bonuses to equal out for not winning ASAP via domnation/conquest (which Jason seems to favor).

If we're going to do multiple, we can do:
1. Conquest & Space
2. Space & Diplo
3. Diplo & Culture
4. Space & Culture

We don't get any extra credit for more than two victory conditions, so let's not think about those. And I don't want to play 540 turns to get a histograph win.

I'm thinking that number one might be fun. Number four would be the toughest to judge.

Getting 100K culture is going to require killing most everyone off (it's a small map) so I like the Space / Conquest idea also.

Let's kick off with agressive growth (pack in as many cities as possible, I like your dot map better than mine for that purpose), research Writing to IW then head for literature (for libraries) & Republic. In this game nothing hits harder than Immortals until cavalry, so make use of them while we can. They should be quite effective alone until muskets and then they'll need cats for the larger opponent cities.

Early city builds would be barracks & warriors and then libraries for culture/research. Given the dry start it might be better to get iron attached sooner rather than later as there might not be much upgrade gold available.

my vote is for space/conquest as well.

at this level, is there any hope that they AI can help research? probably not, so the tight build makes even more sense as it will give us more cities contributing research.

next research should depend on what we find south of Monty. if its just coastline and 0 civ's, then we may want to consider MM before IW or maybe after IW but before Lit. well, let's just be flexible for now and see how it goes.

R&L and Leibniz, what are your thoughts on VC's?

btw, i'm out of town Fri and Sat night so either skip or switch me if i'm up.

good luck :)

I like Space + ?, simply because I haven't had a space win since Civ 1. Given that this a small map, in order to prevent win by domination, we're going to have to raze many cities. As such, that alone makes 100K and Diplo inconceivable and extremely unlikely. 20K would be possible, but not on the land where we start - a VERY early wipe of the Aztecs would be required to get their space and pop support capability. The end of histograph would just be too slow / boring. I think Space + Diplo might be doable with trapped settlers as mentioned, but Space + Conquest seems like the most attainable, and active enough to keep it hopping (listen to me, a builder sounding like a warmonger...). I agree to S + C.

FIRST THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_2150bc.sav)

Score: 70 at 2150 BC

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 2550 BC – Switch Persepolis to Granary – it turns out Pasagarde might as well build the worker first due to corruption – Decide to wake the Pasagarde warrior for scouting - Considering the # of units, cities and the time to research, this should be a quick 10 turns – ok here we go

IBT: zzz

Turn 1 – 2510 BC – Warrior1 (SW of home) move NE spots another dye – Warrior2 (fresh from garrison) moves S spots a game and Aztec Worker – Warrior3 (N) heading home – someday we’ll need to trade for Ceremonial Burial from the Aztecs but not this turn

IBT: Worker completes chop and granary lead-time down to 7

Turn 2 – 2470 BC – Worker starts road – MM Persepolis to build in 4 (grow in 20) – Warrior3 heading home – Warrior1 confirms no more land NE of Aztecs – Warrior2 S near coast

IBT: Persepolis grows to size 2

Turn 3 – 2430 BC – Warrior2 S spots a Jag in the desert – Warrior1 S – Warrior3 next to Persepolis

IBT: Jag moves off – Worker completes road

Turn 4 – 2390 BC – Warrior2 W into Aztec land – Warrior1 SW – Worker starts to mine furs – Warrior3 in Persepolis – Up research to reduce writing to 19

IBT: Monty wants us to leave , sure, no problem

Turn 5 – 2350 BC - Warrior3 heads to Pasagarde – Warrior1 S spots an red border (we’ve got company) – Warrior2 S next to Aztec capital guarded by a spearman

IBT: Barb Warrior runs up at and attacks Warrior3 and we win (3/3) – Persepolis Granary-> Settler – MM for growth in 8 settler in 10

Turn 6 – 2310 BC – Warrior3 moves to hill next to Barb Village - Warrior1 S to meet our new friends – Warrior2 SW finds a cow next to the size 1 Aztec capital

IBT: Warrior2 kicked out of Aztec land the right way – worker completes mine

Turn 7 – 2270 BC – Worker moves to grassland – Warrior3 (3/3) kills a BW – Warrior1 S to find out Babylon has taken an Aztec city (!!) – Trade Alphabet + Masonry +9g to Babylon for The Wheel + Iron Working + Ceremonial Burial - Horses 1 tile N of Pasagarde & Iron is on hill 3 tiles S of Persepolis :D

IBT: Hammy asks us to move our troops, sure

Turn 8 – 2230 BC – Warrior3 (1/3) kills a BW and there’s at least 1 more – worker starts road – Warrior2 heading back to Pasagarde (not much to be found on this coast

IBT: Pasagarde worker->barracks – treasury low message

Turn 9 – 2190 BC - Worker N to road/mine horses – Warrior1 SE in to Aztec land – Warrior2 NW into Aztec land – Warrior3 fortify on hill

IBT: Monty asks us to leave sure – Worker completes road - treasury low message

Turn 10 – 2150 BC – Worker starts horse road – Warrior2 NW – Worker starts mine

I leave the next person with 1g in the bank and –1gpt per turn – That warrior fortified should be healed to 3/3 and be able to kill that last BW and get the 25g from the village to continue funding our research. Not much changed on the map, so I’ll skip the screen shot. Very interesting having Hammy as a neighbor. We might want to keep him around as a research pal (probably not).

Score 70 – tied with Aztecs and trailing Babylon (82)

Good work finding Hammy! If anyone can post a screenshot that would be good. It may take me a while to post one.

Roster Check:
R & L
grahamiam
denyd - Just played
Leibnitz - UP
Bugs - On Deck

Got it. Sorry for the late response. Server was down a few hours.

I agree to Spaceship/conquest. But seems to be very easy (we are on Regent level). Spaceship/100K could also be an option and seems to be hard.

I also like the dot map :)

Sounds like we're all on the same page. Conquest and Space are our official target victories. Since this is Regent, I think we will have to do most of the research ourselves.

T0 2150BC: Things are ok :) Warrior (W1) 3 tiles SW of Tenochtitlan. Warrior (W2) 1 tile E of T. Warrior (W3) on hill between Pers. and Pas. Worker (Wo1) 1 tile N of Pas. roads (2 t left). Worker (Wo2) 1 tile NW of Pers. (3 t left on mine).

IBT: Monty demands auto move of W2, ok. Is SSSW of Pas. now.

T1 2110BC: W3 attacks BW > take 25g, no damage. W2 moves SE, W1 moves S, sees Iron 1 tile NW of Tlatelolco.

IBT: Wo1 completes road, connecting horses to Pas. BW appears N-NW-NW of Pers.

T2 2070BC: W3 1 tile N (to defend Pers.). W01 moves N (not mining due to expected corruption), W2 moves S, W1 S.

IBT: Monty asks to leave, ok. BW moves SE. Wo completes mine.

T3 2030BC: Wo2 moves 3 tiles S, W3 3 tiles NE, Wo1 roads, W2 N, W1 S.

IBT: BW now 1 tile N of Pers. Pers now at pop 2.

T4 1990BC: W3 attacks BW, ok no damage, Wo2 roads, W2 N, W1 SW

T5 1950BC: Pers Settler>Settler. Settler moves SE-S-S, W3 NW to search for Barb camp, sees another Barb, W2 N,
W1 W on mountain.

IBT: Barb moves on forest tile.

T6 1910BC: W3 attacks Barb, promoted to vet :) 3 hp left. Wo2 moves on Iron hill, Settler S, Wo1 completes roadm moves N.
W2 Pas., W1 E.

IBT: Barb1 appears 1 tile N of W3. Barb 2 appears 1 tile W of Settler. **** !

T7: 1870BC: W2 3 tiles N, Susa founded > Barracks. See barb camp near Susa now. Wo1 roads, W1 E, see yellow borders.
W3 attacks Barb, 2hp left. Wo2 roads.

IBT: Barb attacked Susa as expected > 6g stolen.

T8 1830BC: W2 NW on hill near Barb camp. W3 N (where is the Barb camp?) W1 back W to try to contact Shaka.

T9 1790BC: W2 attacks BW > 2hp left and one more barb in camp. Wo2 moves SW (to be not attacked), W3 N,
see barb camp now. W1 W.

T10 1750BC: Wo1 roads, W2 fortify, Wo2 completes road > Iron connected. Wo2 NW-NW-N, W3 fortify, W1 S.
See Zulu City of Bapedi, contact Shaka. Has cap + 2 cities, horses (0 extra), 8g and Myst. Trade Alphabet vs. Myst and 3g.

Remark: If the next city is founded 3 tiles SW of Pers (as in the dot map) then Wo2 should road the furs. W-SW of Pers to
get the extra gold.

Stats: Aztecs: 86, Bab: 83, persia: 78, Zulu 64.


The save file:
SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_1750bc.SAV)

Screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Leibniz_sgotm1_1750bc.jpg

I've got it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Monty_season.jpg

Sorry Sir Bugsy for the trade at turn 10. I just recalled that one should not make deals in turn 10. Hope it was ok for you anyways.

Nice work Leibniz

We can probably take out the Aztecs with 2-3 Immortals and Babylon is not in that much better shape. I can see how a quick domination/conquest win would be in this game. Once you reach map making, nothing else to research, just build Immortals and kill the AI.

Susa & Pasagarde for barracks then Immortals - Persepolis for settlers to fill in the rest of our island. Once the island is ours, we'll need to switch to infrastructure if we hope to research to the modern age in 4 turn jumps. If this wasn't Vanilla, I'd consider keeping Hammy around for the possible bonus tech swap, but since we all get the same tech (Monotheism-Nationalism-Fission), there's no point.

Good job, Leibniz! It's interesting to view our start versus the opportunities that the AI had.

I have created a maintenance thread for this game >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1744816#post1744816).

It will be used for scores and announcements so it might be a good idea to bookmark it.

Pre-flight – 1750 BC – Science comes down 10% to balance budget and still get writing in 5.

Since Persepolis is only at pop 2, I change the settler to a barracks due in 6. I think it will be more productive with more pop.

This is a serious farmer’s gambit we have here. Three cities, all empty.

Diplo check – nada.

1. 1725 BC – get 50G from two barb camps.

The Aztecs have recaptured their city.

2. 1700 BC – A Bab worker blocks our way south.

3. 1675 BC – Build a road.

4. 1650 BC - Persepolis grows. The best we’re ever going to get out of the city is +2 food.

There is a serious choke point between Babylon and Zululand.

IBT – Writing comes in. Map Making at min, since max only gets us 10 extra turns.

5. 1625 BC - :sleep:

IBT – Persepolis: Barracks=>Immortal

6. 1600 BC – Monty has HBR – He wants both our arms and a leg for it so we’ll pass for now.

7. 1575 BC – Aztecs have a worker for sale, but I think it is the only one they have so we’ll pass for now

8. 1550 BC – Barbs are popping up again.

IBT – Defeat two attacking barbs and the palace gets a nice lawn.

9. 1525 BC – We can finally get through the Bab choke point. Lux goes to 10% for Persepolis which grew.

10. 1500 BC – Move our warrior at the choke south.

Score: 90

After Action Report: We can grow a settler in Persepolis next. We probably don’t want our pop there to get below three.

We are almost ready to start cranking out some Immortals. We can train them on the barbs and then we can open Monty Season. Probably want to get about three more cities before we spark our GA.

While mad-bax has relaxed the naming rules and 10 turns a player rule. Let’s keep it going since it makes a lot of sense.

Roster:

R&L – Up
Grahamian – On Deck
Denyd
Leibnitz
Bugs – Just played

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_-_Bugs,_1500_BC.SAV

Got it. I'll start tonight, and likely finish tomorrow night.

note to all:

mad-bax is asking that we post saves and scores on the SGOTM1 maintenance thread. that way, he can track all the teams scores. i will add our latest in a little while. i guess, in the future, we'll have to post the saves and score in both places.

If this is a real pain then say so. You would be surprised how difficult it is to find the save link when you are scan reading 10 threads.

Originally posted by mad-bax
If this is a real pain then say so. You would be surprised how difficult it is to find the save link when you are scan reading 10 threads.
i feel that anything that makes your job of tracking 10 games easier is worthwhile ;) i have a feeling that we can take the pain. however, this probably gives you a goal for SGoTM2 (ie, an automated score/year submittal system) :)

1500BC – 0
Zzzzz

IBT: BW approaches P’gadae

1475 – 1
Worker mines horse. Worker roads. N Vet Warrior -1 dispatches barb camp. Warrior climbs Zulu mountain.

IBT: Shaka asks for our departure, and we agree. BW dies at P’gadae.
Persepolis: Immortal > settler in 5, grow in 7.

1450 – 2
Immortal toward P’gadae for training. N Warrior heals. S warrior N.

IBT: Barb camp appears near Dyes. Zulu send out 2 warriors.

1425 – 3
N Warrior S. Worker moves. Immortal passes through Susa. S warrior N.

IBT: P’gadae garrison -1, kills another BW.

1400 – 4
N Vet warrior -2 kills BW. N Worker roads toward nest city site. Immortal to P’gadae. S worker to P’gadae woods. P’gadae warrior S. S warrior N – sees Bab spear/Bowman pair headed at Monte. Bowman in Ur.

IBT: Aztec spear/settler move to NW of game, kill BW. S warrior gets free trip NNNE.

1375 - 5
P’gadae warrior S. S worker roads woods. Immortal rests. S warrior SE, at corner tween Aztec archer & Bab spear/bow. N warrior heals.

IBT: archer attacks spear (-1) and dies. Bab Bowman E, Bab spear forts on incense. No formal war on F4. Aztec spear/settler moves to game.

1350 – 6
S warrior E. P’gadae warrior E. Immortal rests. N worker NW. N warrior heals.
Other 3 up HR, Aztecs down Masonry, Writing. Monte offers HR +3g for Writing. We’d have to give masonry + #g. Make trade, as other 2 have M & W.

IBT: Aztecs found Texcoco on game, kill BW. Bab bowman W toward Aztec city.
Persepolis: settler > immortal in 8, grow in 1. Susa: Rax > immortal in 8.

1325 – 7
settler NW,N,NW. N worker roads. N warrior S. Immortal rests in P’gadae. P’ warrior W. S warrior W. Monte jumps to 25g, needs masonry, but no deal.

IBT: Bab bowman -1 razes Aztec city under fog, Tlatlelco.

1300 – 8
S warrior W to iron hill. P’ warrior rests. S worker E. immortal rests. Settler N. N warrior rests.

IBT: Hammi demands 27g. I decline, he recedes. Aztec spear/settler appear N of iron hill. Bab bowman forts.

1275 – 9
S warrior forts on iron. P’ warrior rests. S worker roads. Immortal rests. N warrior rests – sees another BW on the way.
Arbela founded > warrior in 5, grow in 10.

IBT: Aztec spear/settler E. Bab bowman W.

1250 – 10
S warrior E. N warrior rests as BW approaches. N worker NW – road to Arbela complete. Change Arbela from warrior to immortal in 14. immortal rests. P’ warrior rests. I blew the trade by waiting – Monte down to 3g, has masonry… :sad:


We're doing well in raw score anyway...

I was using the S warrior to keep the Aztecs from getting both the iron and the coast. If they move SE, they'll be on the coast, but only get the iron after expansion. If they go SW, they get the iron, but miss the coast. Yours to play with. Keep using the N warrior to kill wandering BW, and hope for upgrade to elite.

We'll have 3 immortals in 8 more turns, plus another in 14. We should try to get another settler after Persepolis gets to size 5 so as to found where we can reach the fish (by vote?).

ok, i'll play and post tonight. anybody got a pic to post so we can discuss?

imho, that northern warrior (north of our empire, right?) fishing for barbs should be pulled back and upgraded to immortal or used for MP duty. Barb hunting should be left for immortals as we'd rather have these at elite than warriors.

Originally posted by grahamiam
ok, i'll play and post tonight. anybody got a pic to post so we can discuss?

imho, that northern warrior (north of our empire, right?) fishing for barbs should be pulled back and upgraded to immortal or used for MP duty. Barb hunting should be left for immortals as we'd rather have these at elite than warriors.

Sorry about the pic. I can do that when I get home ~ 6:30.

I used the warrior for barb fishing because he was there, and because there were barbs to kill. I shouldn't have moved the immortal S, but he could be back up to Arbela in 4-5 turns.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Sorry about the pic. I can do that when I get home ~ 6:30.

I used the warrior for barb fishing because he was there, and because there were barbs to kill. I shouldn't have moved the immortal S, but he could be back up to Arbela in 4-5 turns.
ok, sounds good. that'll be about 3hrs before i play so if anyone has recommendations, please make them then.

don't worry about the warrior in the north. the extra time it takes to get an immortal up there will just let the barbs multiply :)

grahamiam's got it. Denyd's on deck.

Sounds like Monty season is in full swing. I wonder if there will be any Aztec cities left for us to pillage :hammer:

Preflight check: Capitol is working a non-mine grass. These should have been mined to speed up the immortal and settler builds. With the extra mined grass, we can get 5spt @ size 3 (immortal in 6) and 6spt @ size 4 (settler in 5). I will focus on upgrading capitol area 1st to fix this. Reduce lux slider to 0% (+6gpt to +7gpt)
IBT: Aztec spear/settler pair move to coast; Pas barracks -> worker
T1: 1225BC: nada
IBT: Aztec make new city on coast;

T2: 1200BC: Warriors coming home for upgrade.

T3: 1175BC: Upgrade Reg warrior to Immortal; Barb warrior gets too close to Arabela so it's killed by vet warrior; Adjust lux slider for pop growth in capitol; worker mines near capitol

T4: 1150BC Reg immortal moves north from Pasargadea; Switch Arbela to barracks so it will pump out vet immortals
IBT: Aztec kick out warrior which sped up his trip to Pasargadea :) ;Persepolis Immortal -> settler; Susa Immortal -> Immortal

T5: 1125BC: Move Immortal out of Persepolis to Arbela and move vet warrior out of Arbela to Pers
IBT: Pas: worker -> temple;

T6: 1100BC: Upgrade reg warrior in Pas; upgrade vet warrior in Persepolis; working finishes 1st grass near Persepolis and starts 2nd; the worker from the south joins him
IBT: vet immortal defeats barb (2/4);

T7: 1075BC: Reduce lux slider with immortal in capitol; reg immortal reaches Arbela

T8: 1050BC: Reg immortal defeats barb but does not promote; growth in Persepolis has new citizen work the grass and I move to wooded furs to get settler in 2T vs 5T. Adjust lux slider for growth.

T9: 1025BC: vet immortal heals and is moving north

T10: 1000BC: Persepolis settler ->immortal; immortals move north for barbs; MM Arbela off grass onto mined grass; lower lux slider

Notes: vet and reg immortal moving north for barbs. Place vet immortal next to camp and fortify. Hopefully, barbs will spawn 2 at a time and allow the vet to attack and defend in 1 turn. Leave the regular behind the vet. He can take over once the vet becomes elite. Do not capture the camp until we have elites. settler left in Persepolis, ready for orders.

We should be able to get 1 immortal and 1 settler every 10 or 11 turns now. Next player must make sure the MM Persepolis and Arbela after each growth for optimum food and shield buildup. Remove Arbela from mined grass when Pers gets to size 4. Use the 2 workers near Arbela to fully develope the land around that city. Please do not leave grassland unmined again. Also, after all tiles around Arbela are developed, go back and mine 1 more grass near Persepolis so Arbela can have 5 good land tiles. The govenor seems to be favoring the grass instead of forrest during growth so the mined/roaded grass will be useful.

Score: 121; Units: 1 settler, 3 workers, 6 immortals (allowed 6 more units (10 with new city) before paying. Our known neighbors are researching very slowly (no techs available).

We ought to research lit next so we can get some cheap Libraries.

1000BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_1000_bc.sav)

a very slow QSC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs1000bc.JPG

Originally posted by grahamiam
Preflight check: Capitol is working a non-mine grass. These should have been mined to speed up the immortal and settler builds. With the extra mined grass, we can get 5spt @ size 3 (immortal in 6) and 6spt @ size 4 (settler in 5). I will focus on upgrading capitol area 1st to fix this.

Please do not leave grassland unmined again.

Sorry about the map. In getting home with the kids, and dropping the taxes at the PO, I forgot. :sad:

Regarding the mines, I barely had enough time to get the road to Arbela - the turn after it was built. I had no time to do mines, and no wasted turns. Will try to do better in the future.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Sorry about the map. In getting home with the kids, and dropping the taxes at the PO, I forgot. :sad:

Regarding the mines, I barely had enough time to get the road to Arbela - the turn after it was built. I had no time to do mines, and no wasted turns. Will try to do better in the future.
R&L, don't worry about the map. taxes and kids are much more important. and don't take my log as a direct criticism, getting the road to that town was important. it's a comment in regards to how the whole team is playing (including me :) ). for instance, there are some extra roads and an extra plain mine around that I'm sure weren't done during your turns. we all need to be a little smarter with how we use the sparse land and i'd like to prevent a repeat at Arbela.

hopefully, i'm not sounding too much like a weenie. this is supposed to be fun :)

with arbela developed and another city on the way, we should be ready to take the continent very soon. just hope we get at least 1 elite from the barbs.

edit: just noticed i'm over 300 posts! time to get a new icon :)

Denyd is up!

We have a variety of experience levels on the team, and several different playing styles as well. It is good to point out areas where improvements should be make. No one should take these things personally. It is all part of the learning experience.

My learning curve just jumped a few notches over in RBC13H, as I made a huge error. Just remember we are human and we should just try and learn from our mistakes.

OK - I got it - I'll play tonight (PDT) - I'll look over the thread and map at lunch and post my plans to the turns for the team to review.

G-man@ nice work with those turns - good points on elite farming - note that we'll need to kill off the barb camp right before the age change to avoid a barb explosion

Originally posted by denyd
OK - I got it - I'll play tonight (PDT) - I'll look over the thread and map at lunch and post my plans to the turns for the team to review.

G-man@ nice work with those turns - good points on elite farming - note that we'll need to kill off the barb camp right before the age change to avoid a barb explosion
well, to me, a barb "explosion" is rather nice as long as you prepare for it. just get about 5 or 6 units up there, ready for it and we'll have a lot of nice elite farming going on :) not sure if we'll have the units to do this in this game but it's something to consider.

I accidently did this in a current game, just after I polished off an existing foe and was getting ready for the next. Hopefully, it'll help me get the leader that I desperately need.

I suggest to build the next city 3 tiles SW of Persepolis. This will grab the fish. I would start a prebuild for a habour then.

Another thing to consider is a habour in Susa, so that Susa can produce its immortals/galleys with more pop which gives us a bit more gold. It also seems that there are coastal tiles in the east of our border at Susa which would make the harbour very useful.

Two good points Leibniz. I think that tile was on somebody's dot map, but yes, we want to settle there. I think a harbor pre-build is a good idea.

Originally posted by Leibniz
I suggest to build the next city 3 tiles SW of Persepolis. This will grab the fish. I would start a prebuild for a habour then.


i like this spot too. the extra gold will help our research. prebuilding a harbor sounds good too. plenty of trees around to help out.

Originally posted by Leibniz
Another thing to consider is a habour in Susa, so that Susa can produce its immortals/galleys with more pop which gives us a bit more gold. It also seems that there are coastal tiles in the east of our border at Susa which would make the harbour very useful.
imho, Susa should start building a harbor after Arbela has finished it's barracks and is building immortals. this may time out well as the BG should be mined next turn so turns to finish barracks will drop to 6 or 5. we need to start the fight soon so we shouldn't forgo too many units but building the harbor is an excellent idea as we need the gold and pop for research. it's obvious that the AI will be absolutely no help in this matter.

Originally posted by grahamiam
we need to start the fight soon so we shouldn't forgo too many units but building the harbor is an excellent idea as we need the gold and pop for research. it's obvious that the AI will be absolutely no help in this matter.

I agree completely G-man. We need to start up research as soon as possible. A space ship might take till 3000 AD if we wait on the AI.

After a quick once over on the map (no game access) , my objectives for tonight:

1. Get 6 Immortals (vet/elite) in place for the Aztec campaign
2. Settle a city on the coast between the 2 furs
3. Have a settler in production
4. Improve the ground around Arbela & Pasagarde
5. Stay current on techs
6. Stay out of any wars

If I happen to get Map Making during my set, is Literature our next target?

Anything else?

I would prefer Literature. As mentioned The AI doesnt help us much with research, and of course the Libraries are cheap and also give us a bit culture. The AI often goes along the Monarchy pass. At least he researched Polytheism (or Phil, CoL) before Lit. in most of my games, so we can hope to trade it later.

Originally posted by denyd
2. Settle a city on the coast between the 2 furs

make sure the city gets the fish. i think your proposing 4 tile SW of the capitol. we've agreed that 3 SW is best so we get the fish.
good luck :)

I would say yes to lit. We'll need the libraries to self-research.

Yes - we want the fish.

Grahamiam@ thanks for the catch, I was going 4 SW, I will settle on the furs 3 SW.

Well, we have our work cut out for us. Akots' team has already won with a conquest victory.

We may want to rethink our Conquest/Space idea. If we wanted we could play a 5CC, since we haven't settled our fifth city yet.

At a minimum we HAVE to beat Samildanch's team. The guy is a snot. :p

well, going for space will require a lot of milking so the 7000+ score may not be out of range yet. We just need to expand to the domination limit ASAP, then build up. However, what's really killing us is the lack of a bonus for a multi-win (seems 5CC gets a better bonus).

I don't mind staying the course, at least we're doing something different than everyone else. of course, this means our game will be much longer than anyone elses...

I wasn't able to get to it last night (sick 2 year old & the wife had survivor/apprentice duty :D )

We can still get a multi-type win with space & conquest. We'll just have to found a 1 tile island city and gift it to the last survivor. Box in the survivor with ships and play the research & grow game. Those turns actually go quite fast compared to at-war turns during the same era.

I agree with Grahamiam that getting to the domination limit early will be important. As soon as we've got our 6 vet Immortals ready to go, Monty's got to go. Then keep rolling to Hammy & Shaka.

Then that's the plan. We will need to keep a close eye on Mapstat to keep from going over the limit.

Sorry, I just finished my other SG and won't be able to play this tonight (it's too late). I'll play & post Saturday late afternoon PDT.

I belive the last player played, but posted on the wrong thread. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1766957#post1766957 , second post from the top.

Thankyou Soren. :thumbsup:

RowAndLive is up I believe...

FIRST THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_750bc.sav)

Next the Turn Log

Turn Log 2

Turn 0 – 1000 BC – Reset personal preferences – Move settler to new city site – MM a little to speed productions (slowing growth) – No trade opportunities

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 1 – 975 BC – Settler founds Antioch starts Immortal – Move Workers to road North – Move Northern Immortals to threaten barbarian camp – Send Southern Regular Immortal north for training on barbarians – No trades available – BTW No one has iron hooked up but us and only the Zulu have horses connected

IBT: Babylon starts Colossus (OH, for me, you shouldn’t have)

Turn 2 – 950 BC – Workers build road segment – Regular Immortal fortifies in woods – Veteran Immortal sent south – Buy Aztec worker for 30g (it’s past 1000BC so this is ok) – New worker sent to connect furs

IBT: Susa Immortals->Worker

Turn 3 – 925 BC – New Immortal sent south – slave starts road – workers move to next segment – Immortals moving on current orders

IBT: Immortal (4/4) defends against Barb Warrior and promotes

Turn 4 – 900 BC – Workers build road segment – Immortals travel on orders – Switch Persepolis to settler (claim the dyes) – Vet Immortal from north MP in Pasagarde – Zulus have Mathematics, but I don’t want to pay monopoly prices

IBT: Forest chop complete for Pasagarde – Arbela barracks->Immortal

Turn 5 – 875 BC – Southern worker starts mine – Northern worker move and mine for Arbela – Immortals still moving on orders – no changes in the trade arena

IBT: Immortal (4/4) defends against Barb Warrior – Persepolis Settler->Immortal – Susa Worker->Immortal

Turn 6 – 850 BC – New worker moves to mine iron – Settler heading north – no trade changes

IBT: Workers complete mine

Turn 7 – 825 BC – Workers move to connect dyes – Immortal & Settler nearly to spot – no trade changes

IBT: Southern worker completes mine

Turn 8 – 800 BC – Southern worker moves to hill – 4th Vet Immortal arrives in Pasagarde – Settler arrives on spot – regular Immortal reaches woods

IBT: Slave finishes connecting fur

Turn 9 – 775 BC – Settler founds Tarsus – Vet Immortal MP in Tarsus – Workers start road to dyes – Regular Immortal fortify in woods – Slave moves to road GL – Southern worker begins hill road – Trade 95g to Zulu for Mathematics – Trade Mathematics + 88g + 4gpt + WM to Babylon for Map Making – Trade Map Making to Zulu for 123g – Trade Map Making to Aztecs for 33g + WM – Trade TM with Zulu – research Philosophy at max (due in 8)

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 10 – 750 BC – Slave starts road – Vet Immortal #5 reaches Pasagarde

The 2 workers on the dyes will have them connected next turn and that should end happiness problems for quite a while – I picked Philosophy as a cheap tech with Republic in mind – We’ve got 6 Veteran Immortals and a regular waiting for barbarians to promote him, we’ll have 3 more in less than 5 turns – Note: I gave Babylon a gold per turn deal, so no war with him for the next 20 turns. We should probably let him finish Colossus before attacking him anyway.

First place Persia score 133 at 750 BC - turn 90

A then a visual of our emire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_bugs_750bc.jpg

Originally posted by mad-bax
Thankyou Soren. :thumbsup:

RowAndLive is up I believe...



No, I am up :)

Got it.

It is ok for you to start the war with the Aztecs now?

Originally posted by Leibniz
It is ok for you to start the war with the Aztecs now?
imho, we should be ready to rock and roll with 7-9 immortals. we have 18 or 19 turns till the deal with babylon is up so you may want to start the rumble in the early-middle of your turns so we'll still be in a GA when we initially take on Bab's. the key is to roll over our whole continent ASAP. horses will help as well. also, we probably want to move the palace to the middle of the Aztec/Bab lands so we can get a productive ring going.

if we don't break the deal with Bab's, we could still possibly get the RBC bonus as well as the duel finish bonus.

also, republic is the early gov't for this game. have fun wackin' monty :)

T0 - 750BC: F7: Babs are building Colossus. Traded with Monty: WM + 21g vs. WM and 2 workers. Move workers to Pas. We need them to build roads for our reinforcements and to connect the cities we will capture. Move vet immortal in Tarsus to Pas.

T1 - 730BC: Tarsus workers move and mine.

T2 - 710BC: Susa worker moves SW. Pas. worker moves S.

T3 - 690BC: Pers. immortal > settler. Immortal to Pas. Science to 90.

T4 - 670BC: Arbela immortal > Immortal. Workers road hill 2 tiles S of Pas. (war preparations).

IBT: See Aztec archer 1 tile SW of Texococo.

T5 - 650BC: Workers complete road to Aztec territory. Move a stack of 7 immortals from Pasargadae to the tile W of Texococo.

IBT: Monty demands to leave, we declare war. Archer attacks vet immortal and dies, immortal has 3hp left. We enter GA.

T6 - 630BC: Workers complete road connecting Texococo to our road network. Vet immortal attacks reg spear in Tex and wins (2hp left). Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins (2hp left). We have captured Texcoco. Tex > barracks. Science to 20. Next target is Aztec cap. Fortify the immortals to let the injured heal.

IBT: Barb horse attacks reg immortal near Tarsus and dies. Researched Phil. Now CoL at 100 in 7t.

T7 - 610BC: Susa Immortal > Immortal.

IBT: Barb horse attacks reg immortal near Tarsus and dies (2hp left).

T8 - 590BC: Pers. settler > immortal. Stack of 6 immortals moves on hill near Tenochtitlan.

IBT: See Aztec GREAT LEADER move to Tenochtitlan. I hope he has no move points left. Do not want to fight against an army. Barb horse attacks reg immortal once more and dies.

T9 - 570BC: No army visible. Vet immortal attacks vet spear and wins with 2 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with 2 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with 2 hp left. Tenochtitlan captured, we see the Great Leader dying. Tenochtitlan has barracks, produces granary now. New Aztec cap is Teotihuacan. See Zulu vet horse with 3 hp 2 tiles S of Tenochtitlan. Move stack of 3 immortals one tile N of Tlatelolco.

IBT: Monty wants to speak with us, but we do not want.

T10 - 550BC: Antioch Immortal> Barracks. Vet immortal attacks reg spear in Tlat. and wins with 3 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with no damage, Tlat, auto-razed.


Remark: Settler should found next city on the spot ( as in the dot map). There are workers on the hill NE of T, that will have connected T to the road network in 2 turns. We should wait 2 turns to let the immortals in T heal. Next target would be Teotihuacan then. Score: 149 (Leader).

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_550bc.sav)

Screenshot
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Leibniz_sgotm_bugs1_550bc.jpg

nice :hammer: Leibniz!

imho, texcoco should be razed and a new city placed between the game (1 tile SW iirc).

Originally posted by grahamiam
we could still possibly get the RBC bonus as well as the duel finish bonus.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are these bonuses of which you speak, pray tell?

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Pardon my ignorance, but what are these bonuses of which you speak, pray tell?
Mad Bax's SGoTM scoring bonuses.

Nice start on the Aztecs Leibniz :thumbsup:

We might want wait until Babylon completes Colossus before declaring on Hammy. The production boost would be quite nice to get as a freebie.

We should hurry a couple of settlers south to claim that open space (and the iron). Also building a city S of goldhill would get us incense (that's 3 luxuries).

After code of laws, it's probably time for the 40-turn Republic gambit. That would give us plenty of time to finish off the Aztecs, Babylon & the Zulu, before revlotiing. Then Literature and libraries everywhere as we need to do a lot of self research in this game, good thing the science improvements are cheaper.

How about building a galley to make the rounds of our island to give us a better understanding of our world?

I'm next, and I got it.

I think that we need to really start self-research, if we're going to finish this game anytime before summer. The regent level AI isn't going to do a lot of research.

It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.

We can't jump the palace without a 10% point decrease - mad-bax rules. probably want a FP on the south end of our continent - Zululand?

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.

I wondered about that too, but was hoping that we'd not have a problem since we didn't actually have a ROP.

I'm on deck, but patiently, as I'm up on BUGS1.

Originally posted by denyd
We might want wait until Babylon completes Colossus before declaring on Hammy. The production boost would be quite nice to get as a freebie.
Wouldn't it be better for our score to get that land more quickly? If we want, we can build the Colossus in Arbela now that we have a GA shield bonus going for us. I have a feeling that a regent AI will take forever to build a wonder and I don't feel like waiting :) I say we press on :ar15:

edit: "press on" after that gpt deal with bab's expires :)

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
We can't jump the palace without a 10% point decrease - mad-bax rules. probably want a FP on the south end of our continent - Zululand?
ok, sorry. gotta go read those rules again. I don't think we can take a 10% decrease. I was hoping a palace jump via a GL would be ok but if it isn't, then lets not do it.

Mad-bax added the no palace jump rule during the Babylon Diety Settlers game. In this game, i don't think it will matter since the map doesn't allow you to have a "core." I think having the capitol on one end of the continent and the FP on the other will work for us.

You will not *lose* anything by jumping the palace after 10BC, you just won't qualify for the 7% RBCiv bonus. This is primarily intended to stop people jumping the palace somewhere remote for most of the game and then jumping it back into their core a few turns from the end. It's just easier to check the palace build date, and is less "woolly" than the GOTM rule.

BTW: The awards system has nearly been nailed down. It may be of interest to your team. ;)

Originally posted by denyd
After code of laws, it's probably time for the 40-turn Republic gambit. That would give us plenty of time to finish off the Aztecs, Babylon & the Zulu, before revlotiing. Then Literature and libraries everywhere as we need to do a lot of self research in this game, good thing the science improvements are cheaper.

How about building a galley to make the rounds of our island to give us a better understanding of our world?

i agree with the galleys but I don't see much point in taking 40T for republic. we're probably not going to be able to buy techs from any civ's we find since they will most likely be backwards compared to us. imho, we ought to research republic as fast as possible with an even or positive influx of gold.

the 40T gambit will give us lots of gold but we're not trying for a massive unit upgrade at this point so I'm probably missing your intention. the reason i prefer getting republic asap is because it will get us out of despot. if we have the units, then we shouldn't hold back revolting while taking out bab's and zulu. the only thing that should hold us back from revolting is if we get it while in a GA, which is pretty unlikely at this point.

My reasoning for the 40T gambit, is as of now we've only got 68g in the treasury and are running a -11gpt with 4 turns to go til Code of Laws. There is no way to get Republic before the GA is over so there's no real hurry to get there. Also Republic is a very valuable trade tech and the more techs that are available for trade the less we'll have to research. If Hammy is building Colossus in his capital, we could add an embassy there and find out how long before he finishes it. If it's too long, then he should be attacked as soon as all deals are done and the Aztecs are gone, otherwise it would be nice to have that built for us.

Maybe instead of 40T, maybe a break-even research rate, but that's likely to be the same as maximum. At this point in the game, I think that both minimum & maximum are likely to be 40 turns.

I'm thinking we'll need most of the wonders to increase our score to the maximum (increase happiness, reduce costs, increase science, increase population...). We'll need to be careful not to hit the 20K win criteria, but if we spread the wonders around that shouldn't be a problem.

ok, but if we go 40T @ min research, that means we won't get republic till 290AD. I think if we maximize research while still staying even or above gpt, then we can bring that time down, even if it starts at 40T. once a 40T min research gambit starts, it cannot be corrected as you grow since so little gold has been put against the tech in the beginning. if we research as much as possible, hopefully the time comes down as we aquire more cities and as our pop grows.

how much gold is required for republic? if that number proves too high and there's no way we can make that much in 40T, then min research is the way to go.

however, if we can get republic and then lit before 40T, it will be well worth it to maximize the research. build libraries and put the AI in the dust.

regarding wonders: if we take over the continent, eliminating 3 of 4 rivals, then all wonders will be ours :) there's just no way a regent AI will be able to keep up in regards to tech research and building. this is gonna be a real builder's gambit.

According to the F10 America & Iroquois are out there somewhere - since neither is scientific, I'm doubting they'll be much help once we do find them.

Since we will probably be researching our way through the next 3 ages without any AI help, I agree getting to Republic ASAP is a priority. We should load that galley with a pair of settlers in case they find empty space. We'll probably need to fill this world to the domination limit to get the maximum score. We will probably need to discuss moving the palace (foregoing the bonus) after we get a better picture of the world.

Since this game ended quite quickly, the other AI must be within reach of galleys. We'll probably find them with our first or second exploring galley. If we manage to destroy the Zulu, Aztecs & Babylon before meeting them, we'll have a clean slate for future dealings.

You are also quite right about this ending up as a builders game. Once this island is ours, we'll probably need to push the growth and infrastructure pedal to the metal.

EDIT: As for wonders, Smith's, Sun Tzu and TOE are must haves. We'll also need the Internet & United Nations when the time comes.

Pre-flight – 550 BC – Our people are happy. We have lots of luxs. We’re at war with Azteca. CoL due in 4 with -11 gpt. We’ll keep that because it makes a lot of sense.

We really need some more settlers and a galley or two. Change Arbela to a galley.

We’ll build a settler out of Persepolis next. We really need a lot more settlers though. I may allow the Aztec cities to grow before I attack.

Babylon has a bunch of cash and can actually pay full price for Philosophy, which is 135G & WM. We’ll execute that deal. We can continue deficit research for a while.

Tarsus is building an immortal without a barracks. With an army of 13 immortals, I think we can afford a barracks first. Change it to a Rax due in 8. I’d prefer to build a library to help research costs but we don’t have Literature yet.

IBT – Kill a barb horse.

1. 530 BC – Found Gordium. Start Barracks.
The Aztec capitol has grown, so we move out for the assault.

Science comes down 10% saving 3 gpt.

IBT – The Zulus are heading that way also.
Persepolis: Immortal=>Settler

2. 510 BC – Maneuvering. We might be attacked by an Aztec archer.

IBT – the archer goes towards a weaker Zulu warrior.

3. 490 BC – Kill the archer, promoting our dude. Start an irrigation project to get water to the north. The Zulu can attack with two units next turn. Hopefully the city will stand long enough for us to take it. :D

Science down another 10%.

IBT – The Aztec capitol stands, although they lost a spear.
CoL comes in. Republic next. I go for max science. Which is -11 gpt, due in 17 turns.

4. 470 BC – Monty must have whipped a defender, cause now the city is back to pop 1. Since the Zulu have three attackers next turn, I’m going to use this for leader fishing.

@ Teotihuacan – Our elite kills the ¾ spear and the city is autorazed. :hmm:

Since I would like to get a city out of this, I will blockade the choke point north until the city grows culturally.

Neither Hammy nor Shaka have enough money to buy anything from us, so I’ll wait.

We have a 4 gpt deal left with Hammy for 5 more turns. I will set up for an attack on Babylon on turn number 6.

IBT – Kill another barb Horse
Arbela: Galley=> Galley
Susa: Imm=> Imm

5. 450 BC – Maneuvering. Set sail in our new galley.

IBT – Zulus start heading home.
Kill a barb warrior and sink a barb galley.
Persepolis: Settler=>Immortal

6. 430 BC - :sleep:

Decide I’ve had it with barbs, and kill the barb camp.

IBT – Hammy wants to swap TMs. I don’t think so.
Then Hammy sends his troops towards ours. :hmm: Does he not want the money we owe him?
Babylon completes the Colossus. What a nice guy. :)

7. 410 BC – Continue the great irrigation project. Maneuver some more.

A barb camp has popped up SE of Tenoch.


The land off our NW coast doesn’t look promising for settling.

Hammy must have researched CoL last turn because he and Shaka have it and Shaka is broke. Hammy has 100G.

IBT – Babs are acting funny. Is he going for the barbs?
Antioch, Tarsus: Rax=> Imm
Hammy establishes an embassy with us.

8. 390 BC – There is at least one a good city site on the NW island

9. 370 BC – Disperse the barb camp. Collect 25G. Promote to elite. Let’s see if the Bowmen keep coming.

The deal with Babylon has expired. We are in a position to knock strike next turn.

IBT – Babs head south.
Arbela: Galley=> galley
Susa: Imm=> Imm
Washington builds the Pyramids.

10. 350 BC - Declare war on Babylon. Kill the two bowmen that were out and about, promoting one of our elites. Move to take Ur next turn.


After Action Report: - The workers have been irrigating and then mining behind.

Wait until the Aztec capitol expands its culture and then attack. That way we’ll get a city out of it.

There is a settler SE of Tenoch. Up to the next player to decide where to send him.

We probably have enough immortals in order to take this continent. We probably want to start building settlers and start cranking up a research machine.

Score: 174
Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_-_Bugs,_350_BC.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_Bugs_350_BC.jpg

lookin' good bugs :) very nice set. irrigation sure will be nice. our people are very thirsty. thanks for going after republic so hard :)

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy


It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.



oops, i didnt know that :confused:

The situation was as follows: I moved the stack of immortals in Aztec territory. Then we had the IBT, where Monty demanded to leave or to declare war. I declared war in the IBT. Is that really a ROP violation? We had no ROP with Monty.

Edit: Seems that it is conform with the mad-bax rules of sgotm.

Nice turns Bugs. Too bad about the Aztec capital. I've had that happen a couple of times to me lately.

You're right on the money with those settlers and galleys. And right about having enough Immortals to take the rest of our island.

Rather than building a city that probably won't grow much in the desert, let's move that settler to south of the cow on the old Aztec city site. If Hammy or Shaka feel like settling in the desert, let them. We can afford to be picky where we place our cites from now on. There probably is much fight left in either of our neighbors (not that it matters), so on the with expansion. We might decide to keep Shaka around for GL farming. Leave his last city and just keep killing whatever leaves the city with elite Immortals.

Should we bother building temples in this game?

Edit: Just noticed Leibniz post. We might as well plan on a mid-game palace shift to take advantage of the FP Corruption bug now (no more RBCiv bonus). Don't sweat it Leibniz, I was going to campaign for this anyway.

We will need now decide if we want to hurry and remove Hammy & Shaka before they can spread the word of our bad deeds. I'd still like to keep a Shaka leader farm going. The more GL's we can get the more wonders we can rush.

Originally posted by Leibniz
oops, i didnt know that :confused:

The situation was as follows: I moved the stack of immortals in Aztec territory. Then we had the IBT, where Monty demanded to leave or to declare war. I declared war in the IBT. Is that really a ROP violation? We had no ROP with Monty.
i believe the AI regards it as an RoP violation if your in thier territory and you declare war. it kills your reputation. hopefully, we'll kill off Bab's and Zulu before the other's find out :)

Originally posted by denyd
Should we bother building temples in this game?
last priority but, yes, i think it's worthwhile as long as we need it for happiness. Sistine's + cathdrals will really make everyone happy, allowing us to put 100% into research and 0% into lux. maybe sell the temples after the cathedrals are built to lower the cost per turn.

yes, nice turns Bugs, and very nice to hear that we will own the Colossus soon :D

I don't know if declaring war while in Aztec territory is a violation of RBCiv rules. We need a ruling from Mad-bax on that one. We didn't have an ROP in effect at the time.

ROP rape is fine. You pay by losing your rep. :)

Originally posted by denyd
We will need now decide if we want to hurry and remove Hammy & Shaka before they can spread the word of our bad deeds. I'd still like to keep a Shaka leader farm going. The more GL's we can get the more wonders we can rush.
we could always kill off the zulu and then gift a city to our offshore "friends" for leader fishing.

A question on the Aztec problem: From my experience, capitol cities don't autoraze, and we should be able to take it without waiting for growth. Perhaps this autoraze is a vanilla feature that we don't see in PTW?

Regarding rules: I don't know about a bonus for anything, and would have to look, but I believe that the FP exploit is still prohibited for this scenario, even if we're not playing RBC. Of course, now I see MB's note that we're still OK for RBC, so I guess the point is moot, but I'm against using the FP exploit.

I'm intending to finish BUGS1 tonight, and so won't get to this one until tomorrow. Then again, maybe it would be quicker to do this one first, and start BUGS1 tonight, finishing it tomorrow.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
A question on the Aztec problem: From my experience, capitol cities don't autoraze, and we should be able to take it without waiting for growth. Perhaps this autoraze is a vanilla feature that we don't see in PTW?
Palace will autoraze if there's not enough culture (min. 10?) or population (min. 2). Having the palace there gives it 1cpt, so it should expand its borders during your turns. Patience is key now as we need the city due to our anemic settler production. imho, don't worry about the babylon cities UR and Ninev... as we need to capture colossus ASAP and those cities won't be building culture but will be pop rushing defenders.

edit: I also agree with RowAndLive that we should not take advantage of the FP palace corruption bug. Let's place the FP in the south as Bugsy suggested (maybe around the current location of UR?) so we can get a nice base of productive cities.

The first Aztec city was the capitol and it autorazed because the culture was too low.

Grahamiam - Excellent Idea! I didn't think of skipping Ur and Niv. We take Babylon - the capitol jumps to Ur. Wait for Ur to grow - take Ur - wait for Niv to grow - take Niv. If the city is pop 2 it won't autoraze.


Roster check

Row & Live - Up
Grahamiam - On deck
Denyd
Leibniz
Bugs

Originally posted by denyd
EDIT: As for wonders, Smith's, Sun Tzu and TOE are must haves. We'll also need the Internet & United Nations when the time comes.
yes, these are very nice indeed, but internet is PTW only, right?. i'll add Copernicus and Newtons (in the same city to maximize research, preferable the FP so we can do palace prebuilds) as well as Sistine's and JS Bach for happiness. well, heck, why don't we just get them all :)

is the 1st leader reserved for the FP?

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Grahamiam - Excellent Idea! I didn't think of skipping Ur and Niv. We take Babylon - the capitol jumps to Ur. Wait for Ur to grow - take Ur - wait for Niv to grow - take Niv. If the city is pop 2 it won't autoraze.
sorry, but that wasn't my idea. i see now that i didn't write it well. i meant to say don't worry about razing them, it's ok. like i wrote, they will pop rush defenders, never building culture. however, waiting is not a bad idea, as long as it doesn't take too long.

The problem with waiting for Pop 2, is the AI is pop-rushing, so as soon as they get to Pop 2 they rush a spearmen and are back a pop 1.

If we've got the RBC bonus still available, then let's keep the FP close by. If for some reason we lose that bonus, then we can consider a palace jump to a remote location. Let's keep our options open.

R&L@ I just played the SGOTM & Bugs1 combo last weekend and SGOTM is much quicker (if you post in the right thread that is :blush: )

BTW: Do we have a settler to add to that galley. It would be nice to start populating any nearby empty islands.

Two thoughts on our game in general:

1 - In case it wasn't noticed, MB has instituted a guillotine rule that goes effective June 8. Anyone not finished by then will be recorded as a conquest loss. I don't expect this to be a problem. It's on page 4 of the maintenance thread, just upstream of Bugs' posting.

2 - Looking at the map set up, and what we've done so far, we really should have gone for the AW bonus too, because even though we're playing a very competitive game, we're getting killed on the score multiplier. I wonder if MB would let us add it in, since we've mostly done it anyway...

I'm now thinking that I'll play this one first tonight, and then do BUGS1 after.

@RowAndLive -> I can't get to this till tomorrow so posting anytime tonight would be great. Also, Gozpel seems to be AWOL at the moment so not rushing thru Bugs1 tonight may work out best. There's a lot of MM'ing to do in that game :)

re: scoring bonuses: i don't mind getting the lower bonuses and such. I think madbax did his best with trying to sort thru the multipliers. Obviously, multiwin on this map isn't too hard but, as our discussions have shown, does require a lot of pre-planning. AW actually seems the easiest seeing that our opponents were weak and had lousy AA unique units. However, I think going for dual win helps all of us (well, at least me) with our game, making us think of things we normally don't. For instance, i've been on a domination rage in GoTM lately (mostly due to time constraints, but also due to my love of horseman and knights). This SG is making me think differently and I enjoy that because it gives me new problems to solve (it's in my engineer's blood to want to solve new problems :) ).

Due to time constraints, maybe, when the waring stops and we're into bob-the-builder mode, we can ask mad-bax to increase our turn count from 10 per turn to 15 or 20 if that speeds up the game.

sorry for the "windy" post.

If you want to increase the turncount per set then that is fine.

Usually the thing that slows down the late game is warring. We should have most of that taken care of early. June 8th shouldn't hard to do. We just have to keep on it.

As a general rule, why don't we do this: if anyone feels compelled to play a few extra turns, go ahead. Especially if you are on a campaign. Let's say you are all set up to sack Zimbabwe but you run out of turns. Take the extra turn or two and see the job through. This should help get the game further along.

The key to getting this done will be our science pace. We need libraries and universities and lots of cities. And we need them last turn. :D

Bugsy - I agree with your last post.

I'm thinking we've got enough Immortals to finish up this island and should be concentrating on expansion & science.

It would be nice to get the Pyramids somewhere on this island for growth purposes and the Hanging Gardens for happiness. I doubt The Great Wall/Library/Lighthouse or Oracle will provide any long term help for us in this game. If we get a Great Leader, it's between Forbidden Palace and Pyramids as my first choice, with Pyramids getting my vote (we can always build the FP brick by brick).

Once Republic is in, I propose we revolt immediatly and research Literature then set a course for Currency. Marketplaces and Libraries will drive the early research.

I'm not sure our reputation is that big a deal in this game, although being able to get GPT from the other AI in the later stages might be useful.

Is there any need to research Monarchy (the other optional AA tech)? The Hanging Gardens are nice, but is it worth spending the time researching it?

Denyd - You're right. We can skip Monarchy.

We may want to start building the Pyramids somewhere near the capitol.

I think a leader should be saved for a FP. I'd place it down in Zululand somewhere.

Your research path is exactly right.

i agree with denyd's research path :thumbsup:

imho, if the key is science, then the FP is the best bet for the leader at this stage of the game. an early 2nd core can really turn a game on it's ear. I think around or 1 S of UR's ruins looks the best. it'll drive down corruption near to the colossus as well as all the cities we're going to plop down in the middle (fat part) of the island. pyramids is nice too and will increase pop quickly to help research but, imho, an early 2nd core always wins. with the location of our palace, it's going to be hard to build the FP by hand down there.

researching monarchy will require some gold that i'd rather spend on 1st tier MA tech's.

I think we'll need to get a lot more leaders. Probably need to set up a leader fishing city on the other continents (islands?). We'll want to create a major science city and get all the science related wonders there...Cop's, Newton's.

I can agree that a Great Leader should be rushing the FP. I think it makes a big difference, since you need around (200 ?) turns to build the FP in a very corrupt city. Of course the Pyramids are nice but the FP is essential in our situation.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think we'll need to get a lot more leaders. Probably need to set up a leader fishing city on the other continents (islands?). We'll want to create a major science city and get all the science related wonders there...Cop's, Newton's.
i like denyd's idea of having 1 city in the south that we can fish with. I don't think it should be zulu, though. kill everyone off on our continent so we don't get a rep hit, then gift a city to another AI and fish every once in a while. this may sound better than it executes but it's something to try. Research wonders should be in low corruption cities so we get the most out of them. having them overseas will hurt more than help.

Actually I think we should try and get a "Super Science City" - I think Sirian gets credit for that term.

You build a library and university and then get Cop's, Newton's and eventually SETI and a research lab. Ideally it should be in a very low corruption city like FP city. A SSC can really crank out the beakers. Something we're going to need a lot of.

Bugsy: Good to know, I've never been sure which way was better (1 SSC or spread the wonders around).

I'm sure we'll need lots of libraries & universities to get the science to a reasonable level.

As for keeping a pet city for leader farming. How about 2 of them? One American & one Iroquois.

We could have a pair of small islands with 1 opponent & 1 of our cities on each. When war weariness gets too high, we make peace with one. Wait a couple of turns then declare on the other and fish over there for 20 turns or so until the WW gets too high, then we switch back to the first city. That would allow us to populate the rest of the world to the domination limit.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Actually I think we should try and get a "Super Science City" - I think Sirian gets credit for that term.

You build a library and university and then get Cop's, Newton's and eventually SETI and a research lab. Ideally it should be in a very low corruption city like FP city. A SSC can really crank out the beakers. Something we're going to need a lot of.

yep, that's the ticket :)

Never mind - barb galley near Aztec city...

Also, never mind on the Pyramids - Abe built them in 370BC.

Got it.

350 BC – 0
Trade TM to Shaka for WM + 1g.

IBT:
Persepolis: Immortal > court in 10. P’gadae: Immortal > granary in 30.

330 – 1
Change Persepolis to horse in 4. Change P’gadae to settler in 15.

IBT: Bab Galley leaves Ur, heading N. Zulu galley arrives near Ur.
Barb camp appears next to settler, S of Texcoco.

310 – 2
Discover continent off coast E of Persepolis.
Discover another landmass WNW of Aztec city from W galley.

IBT: Antioch: immortal > granary in 9. Bab galley heads further N. Mass of Zulu troops pull out toward Aztecs.

290 – 3
Block Aztec neck.

IBT: Arbela riots – change lux to 10 – Republic still in 6.
Zulu troops head home. Bab galley sinks barb galley. Zulu found city S of Aztecs.
Bab Bowman NE out of Nineveh. This waiting for them to grow in killing me!
Aztec border expands.

270 - 4
Bactra founded NW of iron, on grass. Bactra > temple in 60.
Immortal takes out barb comp N of Aztecs.
Immortal takes out barb camp on E side of bulge.

IBT: Zulu now head N again toward own city.
Persepolis: horse > settler in 4, grow in 4. Arbela: galley > settler in 4. Susa: immortal > temple in 9.

250 – 5
Canals reach Susa. Elite immortal -3 kills Bowman headed N. NE galley sees hinto of more land to NE after rounding N tip of new landmass.

IBT: We sink a barb galley @ island to E of Aztecs. Zulu masses continue N. Bowman EE out of Ur. Guessing that Bab galley has been sink by barbs. Can’t wait any more – will take out Aztecs now. GA ends. :sad:

230 – 6
NE Galley did’t quite make it across gap – I hope….
Vet immortal near Nineveh kills Bowman – promotes!

IBT: 2 Zulu horse & and Impi or 2 enter Isandlwana. Zulu galley departs, headed for Aztecs! More Impi & 1 settler headed to gap toward us. Immortal -0 defeats Aztec archer.

210 – 7
Immortal -1 kills Aztec spear – at least 1 more. Canal reaches Antioch. NE galley survives, bypasses landmass to yet another to the E. I open Aztec neck.

IBT: Zulu horse & Impi fill the neck. Galley returns to I’wana.

190 – 8
Vet immortal from neck -3 kills Aztec spear, captures Tlaxcala. Aztecs are gone!
Tlaxcala > temple in 60. Block path to spices with ¾ immortal. 1 more vet N of city. Notice that Nineveh had expanded – Elite immortal -1 kills 1 Bowman – more there.
Block Zulu settler. Jump on mountain, spot another Zulu settler pair coming up – need to block all of this soon. Chop forest at Texcoco.

IBT: Zulu troops all head to I’wana.
Tarsus: immortal > immortal in 10 (settler in 10 after will match growth in 20 4>5).
Zulu begin Oracle.

170 – 9
Move around so Zulu can no longer move N of Ur by land. 1 settler trapped S, until galley goes to get him.
4/5 elite immortal -3 (red) kills Bowman, captures Nineveh + 1 slave!!
Nineveh > temple in 60. Slave NE.

IBT: Persepolis: settler > settler in 6, @3, grow in 4.
Arbela: settler > settler in 8, @3, grow in 7.

150 – 10
Block tightened up. Ur has still not expanded yet. Immortal in forest SE or Ur to try to block neck closer to Zulu home & break road to Babylon.

Thoughts: 2 Settlers & 2 immortal escorts have not yet moved. Horse has 1 move left, but recommend keeping him there this turn. Please change production off of temples, etc. as appropriate. NE galley now has 3 landmasses discovered, but needing investigation. Landmass to extreme W needs investigation. Island in middle could be colonized, as should spices N of last Aztec city.

Score is 200.

The map:

nice turns R&L. i'll attach the file to the maintenance thread.

i'll play tonight. any objections to razing Ur? seems like we have 2 settlers available so I think I'll just plow thru it and go after Babylon ASAP, then turn on the Zulu.

Grahamiam,

I certainly have no objections. I had wanted to do it the whole set, but I thought that the team determined that we needed to capture it. I will caution you to wait until you get one of the settlers down there, since there is a Zulu settler immediately adjacent to the city, and they will grab it if razed too early. Maybe if you can pin the settler into the Bab territory, then he won't settle on the spot.

My overall impression is - what a waste of a GA. I felt hemmed-in by being unable to do more with it. I normally associate the GA with building infrastructure and wonders, not units, and there was little of that going on. I'm a little suprised with all of the landmasses found that I haven't at least seen a border for the other countries yet.

Thanks also for reposting to the maintenance thread. I was tired enough, but also rev'ed up enough, that I completely forgot.

Incidentally, I built the one horseman unit in order to have a higher move unit that could be used to get into place for a blockade in a pinch, when a 1mp unit would be able to get there.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Grahamiam,

I certainly have no objections. I had wanted to do it the whole set, but I thought that the team determined that we needed to capture it. I will caution you to wait until you get one of the settlers down there, since there is a Zulu settler immediately adjacent to the city, and they will grab it if razed too early. Maybe if you can pin the settler into the Bab territory, then he won't settle on the spot.

sorry if we gave you that impression. i guess i wasn't clear in my post. i think your insticts were right, though.

oh, goody! a zulu settler so close, i think i'll declare on them next turn, giving us some free workers :evil:

edit: horseman rock! you can never build too many :)

I was thinking the same thing G-man. Just declare on both - it is a one front war. Just clear up that yellow blot. I suppose waiting so long was a bad idea. Sorry, we handcuffed you R&L. :(

Originally posted by grahamiam
oh, goody! a zulu settler so close, i think i'll declare on them next turn, giving us some free workers

Just to give you a rough status idea, I'wana and the surrounding area has a minimum of: 4 Zulu horse, 4 Impi, 2 Archers, 1 Warrior, 1 galley, and IIRC 1 spear. This does not count the Impi / settler pair next to Ur.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Just to give you a rough status idea, I'wana and the surrounding area has a minimum of: 4 Zulu horse, 4 Impi, 2 Archers, 1 Warrior, 1 galley, and IIRC 1 spear. This does not count the Impi / settler pair next to Ur.
ok, thanks for the heads-up. that's a lot of units for a regent AI. looks like we have a stack of 3 immortals + 1 horse near bactra and 2 immortals north of I'wana. that should be enough to rain on thier parade.

a spear would be a special suprise :) (zulu get impi instead of spears)!

Nice work RowAndLive, I've found waiting for a city growth is not always worth it as they sometimes pop rush a unit and you waited just to get another defender.

Thanks for the screen shot - from the looks of it we might as well finish off Hammy & Shaka. They are still pretty small and shouldn't put up much of a fight.

Nice bit of exploring also. We should probably get another galley out with settlers to start colonizing these new lands.

Edit: One more little note about the current map. I really don't see a quality place for the FP unless we plan on a palace jump later. Bactra or Teno... are possible spots, but the Zulu lands are pretty useless.

I was thinking Bactra or Ur. In any case, I'm sure that you highly competent gentlemen will find our best option, even if it is elsewhere.

Have fun!

my vote is around Ur since colossus is in Babylon. i'll look at the save tonight and do some rough estimates. hopefully, we'll get a leader soon.

The more I look at the map, the less I like an FP on the home island. There really isn't that much productive land here. I hoping that somewhere out on the map is an island big enough for 10-15 large cities where an FP could produce a real second core. If we wait a little (or don't get a GL in the remaining fighting), we might be able to find that spot. If we build the FP now and find that spot in 15-20 turns, we'll either have to forego having the new land be productive or accept the palace jump penalty.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
... you highly competent gentlemen...

I will assume that your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you typed that :lol:

if we don't like the FP location, we could do a palace prebuild in the new city and then abandon the FP city after stressing out settlers. a little severe, i'll admit, but getting that gold from a size 12 colossus city will help alot thru the MA.

edit: looking at the map, Ur and Pers are about distance 28 from each other. therefore, the longest distance to a capitol can be 14 but will really be 12 due to our city placement. Due E of our capitol is some potentially nice land that will be closer but will be further from the colossus. I will check it out during my turns and see if it's free.

here's a picture zoomed out and with grid for your review


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs150bc.JPG

we got our leader on T5, sorry for the late post. I used him to rush a FP in town 1N of former Ur.

first, the 70AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_70ad.sav)
Score: 231
Year: 70AD (sorry, but I took an extra turn to get Babylon. Well, I got to play thru anarchy so I don’t feel that bad :p ).

Preflight check: irrigation has done wonders for our land! Very nice. move horse to hill next to Isandwhatever (zulu) so I can see the units do their X-com shuffle next turn. Switch Pers to horseman from settler due to size. Arbela settler will wait for a galley, Pers settler heads south. Texcoco immortal heads south to join fight. Not sure how many units are in Ur right now so I hold off attacking. Plus, we’ll have another elite available for the attack next turn. Lower sci slider (Republic still in 2T, -7gpt vs -9gpt). Since Pas is going to have a settler in 7T, I switch Arbela to galley. MM Susa for growth, temple still in 10T, want to MM Antioch for growth but this slows down research by 1T so don’t do it. Nineveh is unhappy at 1 pop so I change to clown to avoid a riot. Un-fortify elite immortal next to Ur so vet immortal underneath is 1st defender. Babylon has 103g so this conquest should be profitable.
Notes to self: Next to Isandwhatever, I see 2 horse and 2 impi.

IBT: no X-com shuffle from Isandwhatever. Zulu settler/impi pair move south


T1: 130BC Chop done at Texcoco and change to settler so we move town next turn and get both game. Move units into position around Isand… Immortals cut-off peninsula from Zulu Settler/Impi pair (they are blocking our way to Babylon also)

Attack on Ur: elite immortal kills bowman (3/5); elite immortal kills bowman (4/5) and we destroy the city + take 2 workers + 26g. Ur’s destruction reveals a BG and if the AI had placed the city 1N, it would have whales in it’s expanded radii.

IBT: Zulu galley drops of horsman/settler pair NW of former Ur. Impi/Settler pair moves south into Zululand. Republic comes in -> Lit 9T @ -7gpt. Revolt and get 4 turns. Texcaco settler -> wealth.

T2: 110BC Texcoco settler 1SE, abandon Texcoco, found Sidon between game on coast. Hold off on declaring war so I can get more units into position.

T3: 90BC move units out of Zulu land. Zulu units near Isandhlwana are fortified on a hill so I maneuver 1 more turn so we have 7 immortals and 1 horse in range to attack.

IBT: Impi and 2 horseman abandon hill and move to desert, how nice of them.

T4: 70BC Settler hops on galley in Arbela. Near Isandhlwana: Unfortunately, an elite immortal is out of range; Declare on Zulu
Battle outside of Isandhlwana: vet immortal dies to reg impi (1/3); reg immortal forces horse to retreat; vet immortal kills horse (3/4)

IBT: Zulu horse near Isandhlwana redlines our horse but dies, Zulu horse near Babylon kills vet immortal

T5: 50BC Reg immortal also hops on galley and it heads SE towards eastern island.
Battle near Intombe (former Ur): Elite immortal kills redlined impi and we get 1st leader Darius [dance] form army (just kidding)
Battle at Isandhlwana: vet immortal kills impi (3/4); vet immortal redlines impi but dies, promoting it; vet immortal kills 2/4 impi and we destroy the city.
Battle near Babylon: vet immortal redlines elite horse and it retreats. Force outside Babylon (2 immortals) waits for reinforcements.

IBT: Zulu horse kills vet Immortal; Zulu archer kills vet immortal; Zulu move 1 horse and 1 Impi +2 settlers towards us ? Iroquuois complete The Oracle

T6: 30BC We are now a Republic
Battle for Intombe: ¾ immortal kills horse and we destroy the city +1g; elite* immortal forces impi to retreat; elite (all we have) immortal kills vet horse and we get 4 slaves (thanks Shaka) ; elite immortal kills redlined horse
Near Babylon: vet immortal kills 3/5 archer (4/4)

IBT: Zulu archer kills vet immortal (2/4); Zulu and Babylon building GLight :lol:

T7: 10BC Move stack of 5 immortals onto neck of pennisula

IBT: Zulu want no mas but I send him off.

T8: 10AD Tyre founded on desert N of former Ur -> FP; GLeader runs over and rushes it;

T9: 30AD FP finished, research time for Lit drops from 9T to 5T and -2gpt to +3gpt. Sardis founded on island to East. Antioch Granery-> courthouse (library prebuild)
Near Babylon: vet immortal kills reg impi (1/4); elite immortal kills 2/4 archer (2/5);

Note: Zulu have construction and Babylon is on top of Ivory.

IBT: Zulu archer dies to immortal (3/5); Zulu archer dies to immortal (3/5)

T10: 50AD Position immortals next to Babylon; 1 3/3 immortal positioned on hill next to Bapedi to impede movement of Zulu troops

IBT: Nada

T11: 70AD: Sorry, but I want Babylon! Vet immortal redlines but kills spear; vet immortal kills spear and we take Babylon + 92g + colossus + ivory; Babylon are eliminated. Tax-starve Babylon.

Notes: Sorry for the extra turn but I really wanted Babylon. Those Zulu units pecking at our stack was really annoying.
Susa, Antioch, Tenochtitlan (someone please change that name) are doing Library pre-builds. In fact, all builds could be considered Lib prebuilds except Arbela galley and Tarsus immortal. Settler NW of Sidon awaiting orders as are most workers (i'm now starting to irrigate south for Nineveh and Tyre). Island E of our capitol is small but has some good land. Unfortunately, Sardis is not in the best location but should be ok at claiming the southern end of the island.

Zulu have construction and are almost willing to trade it straight up to us for peace. Recommend we take all cities but 1 and get all his tech’s. btw, he’s still building the GLight in Zimbabwe :lol:

We need more garrisons.

edit: Lit can be done in 2T @ -3gpt by adjusting sci slider. this will be a good idea so we can start currency 1T sooner.

our ever expanding empire
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs70ad.JPG

Nice work Grahamiam :thumbsup:

Hammy, Monty & Shaka were pretty pitiful this game. Time to Leibniz to finish off Shaka and we can switch to build and expand mode. Once Literature is discovered (3 turns), switch all those pre-builds to libraries. We'll need some more settlers and galleys. The exploring galleys are too far from home to provide settler transport at the moment.

After Literature, what's next? Min or max rate?

Should be let Zimbabwe finish the Great Lighthouse before taking it?

How far are we from researching currency?

You might consider razing Bapedi and forming a new city 2 SE of that location. Having 3 wheats would be a create settler/worker factory.

Nice job, Grahamiam! It's also nice to see the world map taking shape. IIRC, it looks like Capt. Magellan is close to circumnavigating our globe in the N. Now we'll have to move S and find the others before they consolidate. We really should see about eliminating the Zulu quickly so as to prevent their contacting the remaining civs and telling them about our poor reputation!:lol:

It wasn't clear, but if we still have a settler near Arbela, we may want to plant a city on the island to the W, just to keep it from being used as a bomber base in the late game. Normally I'd say that there isn't going to be a late game, especially in this scenario, but since we're going for a multi-win, there obviously will be. Too bad that domination isn't allowed, or we could time a conquest / domination win for much earlier. This will just force us to a late ending, but will also force us to "milk" it for points - we may win the competition after all, just based on the forced late win.

we need to declare peace with Zulu when he's down to 1 city. they have construction and we want it :evil: let'em build the GLight if it's to thier fancy :) We can be 2T till Lit if we adjust slider.

R&L: I got 1 city on the island to the east and pers is building another settler (4T) and Arbela is building another galley (1T) so we should be able to get another to put on whatever nearby island soon. Both east and west islands may be productive as niether are too far from Pers.

There's another galley in Babylon for our use. I would prefer if we got the fat part of our pennisula settled/conquered 1st, then go after the islands.

Regarding Tenocwhatever, we may want to finish the granery there as it could be a good settler factory for the south and all those little-medium islands that are around. Bapedi should be razed when Leibniz takes it next turn.

If we meet the new civ's, please don't sell contact with the Zulu as it will hurt our rep. We may want it later.

I do believe that Denyd is UP!
Leibniz is on deck.

Great set of turn G-man! I like your decision found Tyre where you did, and to rush the FP there. That was good thinking and took advantage of the situation at hand.

I agree with the decision to let the Zulus live with one city and take teir techs. Libraries!! Good move with the pre-builds. We will need to sprint to Education for the Universities. If it is an optional tech, we'll skip it from here on out.

Let's leave Shaka with his tundra city. We can take Zimbabwe. It will make a good fishing village. We'll just need some culture there to prevent a flip.

Originally posted by grahamiam
If we meet the new civ's, please don't sell contact with the Zulu as it will hurt our rep. We may want it later.

I didn't finish my thought. I recommended quick extermination because the Zulu have already been seen to have at least 2 galleys. I then make the assumption that they are exploring too, and may get contact before we do, especially since:
1 - they are based in the Southern part of the globe which we have not yet explored.
2 - we haven't found any other civs in the Northern part of the globe, and therefore they must be in the mid to South.

We don't know when the Zulu began the GLight, but I'd say not long ago. As such, with thier small economy it will take a while, thus increasing the chances of our rep getting to the others if we wait for them to finish GLight. I'd say to take them out now, and we're not losing more than a few turns worth of shields. That is more than offset by the ability to make the full range of trades later in the game, since by defualt we have to be around that long!

Very nice turns Grahamian. The GL and the FP now is the best that could happen. It allows us to build our infrastructure very quickly (at least i hope this). I hope we can catch up to the other teams now.

[I keep looking at page 1 for order of play]

I got it

Plans:

1. Raze Bapedi - Place a new city 2 SE of current spot
2. Rename Teno... :D
3. Capture Ulundi & Hlobane
4. Settle for peace with Zulu getting everything Shaka has left
5. Finish Literature, start on Currency
6. Switch Temples & Courthouses to Libraries
7. Settle as many nearby islands as possible
8. Keep the existence of the Zulu nation a secret from the world
9. Fill in those empty spots on the main island with cities
10. Building boats and settlers once libraries done
11. When Shaka completes Great Lighthouse, finish him off (ok to break treaty??)


Taking a look at the resource / luxury situation:
Luxuries: Ivory(1), Furs (5), Dyes(6) & Incense(2, w/2 in Zulu land)
Resources: Iron (2) & Horses (2 w/1 in Zulu land)

Looks like we are in pretty good shape.

Edit: After reading R&L's comments, I'm going to go for the kill on Shaka ASAP (getting construction will have to wait)

Originally posted by denyd
[I keep looking at page 1 for order of play]
Edit: After reading R&L's comments, I'm going to go for the kill on Shaka ASAP (getting construction will have to wait)

Either that or make peace, get construction, and then break the treaty & wipe him out:evil:, hoping that there's no boat people.

Let's be honorable about it. If give Shaka peace, then he'll get peace for 20 turns and 1 second. That doesn't mean we can't blockade his galleys so he can't make contact. :devil2:

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Either that or make peace, get construction, and then break the treaty & wipe him out:evil:, hoping that there's no boat people.
hehe, that's what i'd do in a GoTM but this goes against RBCiv Honorable rules. iirc, we have to keep our word under those rules (ie, wait 20T till peace deal is done). maybe i'll go to the site later today and look at those rules. I would prefer to get the tech in a peace deal to save money and time.

in regards to culture flips, with all those libraries we're gonna have, this should not be much of a problem, right? if we're concerned, then take out Zulu capitol and leave him a tundra city. i saw only 1 galley during my turns and it was destroyed when i razed Intombe.

Originally posted by Leibniz
Very nice turns Grahamian. The GL and the FP now is the best that could happen. It allows us to build our infrastructure very quickly (at least i hope this). I hope we can catch up to the other teams now.
thanks, take a look at the save if you get a chance. it's been a while since i've played regent but it looks like the corruption is now extremely low. we can easily get 2 shields with 2 cit's in distance 11 cities :)

From the RBCiv website. I believe we can be honorable or dastardly, but not exploitative. I don't really know these rules too well so this post is really for me so I don't have to google RBCiv everytime I have a question :p

Diplomacy


HONORABLE DIPLOMACY

Diplomacy involves all deals and agreements between civs, including peace terms.

Honorable Diplomacy allows for almost any deal-making, provided that you meet all of your commitments in the deal. Exception: alliances that lead to unprovoked declarations of war against a peaceable civilization, are not honorable, whether the proposal is yours or that of an AI civ. Going to the aid of a civ who has been attacked, or seeking aid against those who attack your civ, are honorable. Neutrality is also honorable.

The commitments invariably last for twenty turns, which is a game mechanic involving its own flaws and limitations. Peace treaties to end wars, for example, always include a twenty turn component, even though the description says "Will Last Until War is Redeclared." Trade deals for luxuries, rights of passage, or any deal involving resources or gold-per-turn, also last for twenty turns, or for at least twenty turns. The Honorable Diplomat and Trader meets with all his own commitments, and does not scheme behind the scenes to sabotage these deals.

Asking those without right of passage to depart your lands is also always honorable.

Using spies to investigate a city or expose an enemy spy is honorable.



DASTARDLY DIPLOMACY

Dastardly Diplomacy involves deception by way of breaking your commitments, or unprovoked aggression against peaceful civs.

Declaring war against a civ with whom you have ongoing commitments is dishonorable. The stain of dishonor falls on them if they declare unprovoked war on you.

Declaring war by any method or means against a civ with whom you have made peace in the last twenty turns is highly dishonorable. If they are the aggressors and declare unprovoked war on you, then the stain falls on them.

Setting up agreements in which you trade per-turn payments for durable goods (cash, techs, etc), then declare war to cancel the deals, getting something for almost nothing, is dastardly. The game is set up to handle this for trade deals, but not for peace treaties. For trade deals, this behavior is allowed.

Using spies to steal anything, sabotage production, or initiate propaganda is dastardly.

Demanding tribute is dastardly.

Renegotiating ongoing peace treaties to squeeze more concessions out of weak civs is dastardly.



DIPLOMACY EXPLOITS

"Phony Peace Treaty": In some areas, the game does not have reasonable, sensical, or sufficient penalties in place for dishonorable acts. The absolute worst such case involves peace treaties. Your diplomatic reputation in no way impacts peace treaty negotiations and AI concessions given in trade for twenty turns of peace. Even when you establish your civ's policies to be the most vile, cheatful, deceptive policy, the AI's still blindly trust your word when it comes to peace treaties, and this is both unfathomable and imbalancing to the game.

Making Phony Peace Treaties to wring free concessions out of the AI's, then turning around to declare war again immediately or at your next convenience, is exploitative. You could do it once, but your word would then be dirt at the peace treaty negotiation table, and realistically, no civ would offer you concessions for peace thereafter, not until there was a regime change at least -- but in Civ3 there is never a regime change, you are like an immortal with absolute control over your civ for its entire history, so there are limits in applying history to this circumstance. For the purposes of RBCiv Epics, phony treaties are never allowed. It may be possible to compensate for the AI's overly trusting nature, its inability to discern when its better off staying in a permanent state of war with your civ than making phony peace with you on your terms, but that would become convoluted and it would also be controversial. We need to keep our standards simple, so unless and until such time as a future patch addresses this loophole, no Phony Peace Treaties. If you accept cities or technologies as part of AI concessions for peace, you are required to honorably observe the full twenty turn duration of the peace treaty. Maps, chump change, and per-turn agreements (including any sum of gold per turn) do not rise to the level of exploitive, so are not concessions that would prevent you from breaking a treaty at your pleasure.

"Sabotaging Trade" is an exploit. Intentionally breaking the trade route (pillaging a road, selling off your harbor, etc) after selling per-turn goods for lump sum payments, or acquiring lump sum goods (like techs) for per-turn payments, is exploitive. The game is not programmed to deal with this kind of piracy and fraud appropriately. Even though it could nominally have a place in the game, the game isn't set up for it, so for RBCiv Epics events, this move is not allowed.

"Instant Palace": abandoning your capital earlyish in the game, for the purposes of moving the Palace without having to build a new Palace -- especially by way of disbanding your capital by building a settler, then resettling -- is exploitive.

"Grand Theft": If you steal tech and you grab the one you are currently researching, you get the select next tech popup. If you then click "The Big Picture", you don't go to the tech screen but to the steal tech screen, where you can steal another. This is strictly prohibited.

Sorry, :sad: I forgot that we were playing by RBC rules. I prefer them, myself.

In that case, forget the tech, and just take him out! Again, the payoff from full trading later greatly outweighs the desire to grab 1 tech now. We will need that trading ability, just to make sure that we can stay ahead or on par, and certainly to help deny the AI of money. We want to be able to control their upgrade ability, especially since we're trying to time conquest with the space launch.

I was thinking we probably won't be using our reputation later anyway. If I'm correct the plan is to:

1. Expand to all the uninhabited islands
2. Land troops and take out one of the 2 remaining AI
3. Gift a remote island city to the survivor and the take the rest of his cities
4. Fill the rest of the world to the domination limit
5. Blockade the exiled survivor
6. Research the remaining techs to a space ship launch and take him out on during the launch turn.

If all that comes true, the survivor won't give a red cent about our reputation. He'll be too busy trying to stay warm in the igloo we confine him to. :D

Edit: We'll probably be landing a couple Modern Armies to attack his rifleman (if he gets to Nationalism by then).

i agree with Denyd. we'll be so far ahead, our rep won't matter. general strategy seems to be what we discussed and should work :)

btw, the rep tainting only effects our ability to give gpt for techs/resourses/lux but doesn't effect them giving us gpt for those items (re: bugs1). i don't think we'll do too many gpt buy's during this game.

Let's see - this is the right place for Bugsy's Bunnies to post :D

Start with the SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_260AD.sav)

The Highlights:
Shaka is gone - we researched literature, currency & construction, got polytheism from a hut and monotheism as the age change bonus and are now in the middle ages researching engineering - Founded 2 towns and captured 2 - Met America & Iroquois and they are both 3+ techs behind and have few cities and resources

The turn log:

Turn Log 3

Turn 0 – 70 AD – Reset personal preferences – Send Immortal to Tarsus – Move horseman & settler south – Slider to 5-5-0 – Treasury 228g +5gpt – Literature in 2

IBT: Zulu archer & Barb Galley move, but no counterattacks
Arbela Galley->Settler
Palace Expansion and we get a front porch

Turn 1 – 90 AD – New Galley heads to sea to collect a settler – Immortal fortifies on Dyes to wait for barbarians – Eastern Galley heads south and spots a blue border
Assault on Bapedi:
Vet Immortal (3/4) kills Vet Impi
Vet Immortal (4/4) kills Reg Impi
Reg Immortal (3/3) kills Vet Archer and Bapedi auto razes, we get 2 slaves
Immortals & Horseman towards Ulundi
Switch Babylon to a settler

IBT: Elite Immortal dies to Reg Archer (1/3)
Discover Literature research Currency at 90% (due in 4 turns)

Turn 2 – 110 AD – Reg Immortal kills Reg Archer (Elite is revenged) - Switch all pre-builds to libraries – Eastern Galley now spots purple border – 4 Immortals & 1 horseman setting up for Ulundi – Contact made with Iroquois – Down 4 techs without horses or iron, just 2 cities

IBT: A single archer leaves Ulundi – Teno library->settler – Susa library->settler

Turn 3 – 130 AD - Veteran Horseman (4/5) kills Reg Archer and promotes – Immortal pops a hut and we get Polytheism – Contact America down 3 techs, no horses, 5 cities – Trade Philosophy to Iroquois for WM + 15g

IBT: Iroquois complain about our galley, no problem, it’s leaving – Persepolis settler->library

Turn 4 – 150 AD – Settler heading south
Battle for Ulundi:
Vet Immortal (3/4) kills Vet Impi
Elite Immortal (4/5) kills Reg Impi
Vet Immortal (1/4) kills Reg Archer and Ulundi auto razes

Immortals & Horseman move to Hlobane – Immortal jumps on galley to head for a hut
No changes on trade front

IBT: Immortal (2/5) defends against attacking Impi and promotes

Turn 5 – 170 AD – Workers connect Taxi - 5 Immortals ready for Hlobane – 6 Immortals heading for Zimbabwe – Slider to 4-6-0 Currency next turn

IBT: 1 Archer out Hlobane – Discover Currency research Construction – Antioch library->settler

Turn 6 – 190 AD – Settler founds Samaria starts library
Battle for Hlobane:
Vet Immortal loses to Vet Impi (1/4)
Vet Immortal loses to Reg Impi (2/4) who promotes
Elite Immortal (3/4) kills Reg Impi
Reg Immortal kills Vet Impi and Hlobane is ours
Elite Horseman (4/5) kills Reg Archer

IBT: Barb galley is chasing eastern galley – Babylon library->settler – Tarsus library->settler

Turn 7 – 210 AD – Troops approach Zimbabwe

IBT: Barb galley still chasing us

Turn 8 – 230 AD – Assault on Zimbabwe:
Elite Immortal (1/5) kills Reg Impi
Elite Immortal (4/5) kills Reg Impi, Zimbabwe is ours and Shaka has left the building

IBT: Persepolis library->settler – Teno settler->settler – Arbela library->settler – Bactra library->settler

Turn 9 – 250 AD – Moving units around

IBT: Discover Construction research Engineering – Monotheism is our bonus for entering the Middle Ages (surprise) – Susa settler->marketplace – Palace Expansion gets us some pointy sticks on the porch – Galley with Immortal sinks in sea squares

Turn 10 – 260 AD – Settler founds Hamadan – not much to trade with the other world

Score: Persia in 260 AD - 272 points

Notes for next:

I've got a galley coming up the coast to pick up the 2 settlers
It would be nice to get the Great Lighthouse to safely traverse the sea tiles. The Zulu never met the other lands, but Abe is pissed with us for some reason, not that it matters. We should probably concentrate on getting those other islands colonized then got clean up the other lands. I can see why some of the warmonger teams are done already. It might be time to increase the play sets to 15 turns as we are now in expansion & builder mode.

A picture of our lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_BUGS_260AD_US.JPG

A picture of the other continent:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_BUGS_260AD_THEM.jpg

nice turns! :) should we allow the americans and iroquoi to exist for a while, providing money for all our lux? maybe trade/gift them republic so they start making money?

btw, you get my vote that we should start going to 15T per person now.

Leibniz is UP, I'm on deck.

15 turns per person. Let's grab some islands.

After Engineering we need to bee line to Education for the universities. Being able to do 4 turn research in the AA is great!

I agree with allowing the Iroquois and Americans to stick around. We need to grab islands for the cities. And we need the cities for the money and we need the money for the research.

So our rep is safe, thanks to Denyd's quick destruction of the Zulu.

let's discuss MA wonder prebuilds again:

must haves: copernicus, newton (prefer in same city, if FP, then that city should have an aqueduct but we may want to use Babylon since it has Colossus).

nice for happiness: sistine's, J.S. Bach (requires optional tech), shakespear's theater (for IA wonder build city, 3 optional techs)

nice for movement: GLight, magellan's (optional tech)

nice for saving some cash: Smith's (optional tech)

totally unnecessary: Sun's, Leonardo's, GLib

Also, do we want to revolt to Democracy (2 optional techs)?

Optional techs: any that we want (for wonders or wealth/trade?)

I think Smith's is worth the research. The money saved on marketplaces, banks & harbors will pay for the research to get there.

I would normally want Bach's, but it's for the home continent only (like Sun Tzu & Pyramids), so I don't think we need it. I do think Copernicus & Newton's in the same city is a good idea. Shakespeare is a why bother in this game. I'd use Leo's & Sun Tzu as pre-builds for the other wonders since we have to research their tech anyway.

Getting the Great Lighthouse would be of great value in saving potential lost galleys until we get to Astronomy. There are a couple of islands that require a sea stop to get to and I hate watching loaded galleys sink. If Hanging Gardens is a world wide wonder, then we might consider trading for Monarchy once one of the others research it and building it. Happiness isn't going to be a problem for quite a while, but Happy People do push our score higher. If Sistine Chapel's effects are world wide, then it's another why not wonder. I reality, we can probably all of the wonders if we really wanted to (not a bad secondary goal, but MB probably won't add anything to our score if we did.)

While scouting the rest of the world, look for a home for our friends the Americans/Iroquois. I'd like to have those spices & wines to add more happy faces. I'd like to gift them their new home soon, so we can load up a couple of boats of Immortals and go claim the island. The Americans seem stronger than the Iroquois and they have the Pyramids, but neither would stand up to a stack of 10 Immortals.

i'll check on sistine's tonight (just built it last night in GoTM30 :D ) but it looks like it has a worldwide effect.

so, only 1 optional tech desired from Denyd (Economics for Smith's). I agree with this optional tech.

I am battling in my head if we should go Democratic. 4-6T of anarchy + 2 optional tech's but then our workers are faster and corruption drops. Maybe, when we get close to the IA, we can gift up to Theology to the AI, hoping they go for Printing Press while we keep going for other tech's.

imho, we could go for all wonders, but I think the ideal situation is to try for a Space Launch as early as possible. maybe we should make a guideline like wonder's are fine in a city as long as that city has at least a market, library, and university and is growing to size 12 (ie, aqueduct or fresh water)? Maybe that's too strict but I'd hate to pre-build in a size 6 city if we can avoid it.

Denyd - you have a good point with the happy wonders. They will be worthwhile for the extra points.

G-man - I agree with Smith's, that is a must have. The lighthouse and magellan's would be great for this map.

Here's an idea for the optional techs. - Maybe we get the AI up to the point where they can research those techs for us. Example - We gift them or sell for peanuts - up to banking - They always go for Democracy - By then we'll be up by IA techs and we can trade for Democracy. Let's try to steer them in the tech direction we need them to research through gifts and cheap deals.

As for our Super Science City (SSC) - I think we have a few options.

1. Tyre - FP city - low corruption due to FP - Can have a palace pre-build - Decent shields in area.

2. Babylon - Colossus city - Slightly higher corruption but close to FP city - Can have pre-builds - Decent shields

3. Bactra - About the same as Babylon

4. Persepolis - No to very low corruption - No palace pre-build - good shiled potential

Almost all cities are going to need an aquaduct.

It probably wouldn't hurt to start a couple of pre-builds now. If we happen to end up completing the Wonder before a more desirable one comes available, it's not that big a loss.

I think we could really use the Great Lighthouse at this time, so whatever coastal city has the shortest build time should be switched to on the current turn.

We could also start a Great Wall Pre-build for Sistine at this time.

I just looked at the log and we only have 1 turn of research invested in Engineering. Is it worth it to switch to Theology at this point or continue on?

If we can find a little more income (marketplaces), we should be able to hold a 4-5 turn research cycle for the rest of the age. I'm proposing the following path after we finish or switch from Engineering:

Theology->Education->Astronomy->Banking->Economics

Following that path will keep our cities building settlers, harbors, marketplaces, aqueducts, universities & banks (as well as Wonders that become available). I'm not sure we will ever need to build another military land unit until tanks.

We can probably gift both of our friends into the Middle Ages once we get near Education and hope they go for Feudalism. We'll probably need to do the rest of the required techs ourselves.

denyd -> imho, finish off engineering, then go like you suggest to economics. eng is a required tech and we could use the 6T to finish more libraries and markets. gifting the AI to MA after education is a good idea. maybe even give them eng. & mono so they both work on Fuedalism. i think we should give them republic somewhat soon so they start making gpt and can trade.

My thought was to save Republic to use as a trading tool to get Monarchy (for Hanging Gardens) or Feudalism. I like the idea of gifting both first level techs to them, it directs their research to a place where we can benefit from what little science they have.

I was thinking it might be a good idea to keep both of the AI around. We could use tech gifting to direct their research to different paths and possibly speed up our advances.

denyd -> re: republic: well, i'm sure they'll give us monarchy for a 1st tier MA tech, but either way should work. i just thought we might get them into some deals for our copious amounts of furs and dyes sooner by giving them republic earlier.

directing research by giving eng and mono will only work once since the AI will probably go for chivalry next. we probably will have to gift them the rest of the MA to get them to research democracy for us :lol:

We won't be able to get those luxuries until the Iroquois build a harbor and we get to Astronomy - no paths from one to the other using only coastal tiles.

I was thinking of using them for Feudalism, Chivalry, Music Theory and the Printing Press to Democracy string, maybe even Navigation & Military Tradition (the optional techs)

good point. you convinced me. :) hold off on republic till we get something nice for it. i just hope they don't research republic instead of monarchy.

I wouldn't even bother with Mil Tradition. We'll complete our conquest with Modern Armor.

I like the gifting Republic idea. It is probably the only way we're going to get anything out of them. I feel like a boxer who has to hold his opponent up for five rounds in order to knock him out in the sixth, just to keep the mob happy.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I wouldn't even bother with Mil Tradition. We'll complete our conquest with Modern Armor.
i don't think denyd was suggest we research it. he was suggesting the AI research it for us. i think the only optional tech we're going for right now is economics for smith's.

I deserve this.
G-Man => :splat: <= Bugs

I have got it. Nice turns Denyd. I hadnt the time to play today and to post comments. I will play tomorrow, when i have read all your comments and suggestions.

Originally posted by grahamiam
I am battling in my head if we should go Democratic. 4-6T of anarchy + 2 optional tech's but then our workers are faster and corruption drops.

Given the space race, I think that we'll have the time to build the 2 option techs to get Democracy, or even all of the techs.

imho, we could go for all wonders, but I think the ideal situation is to try for a Space Launch as early as possible.

I'm not sure if the motivation is to reach the goals and get out of the game soon, as it will be basically wrapped-up, or if we're trying for score. If you see Barbslinger's posts in the end of the maintenance thread, however, you'll see that in this case, an earlier finish may work against us. The bonus from an earlier finish (per turn) decreases, but moves into the normal points each turn. When the JASON multiplier is factored in, it makes the impact of the incremental normal points larger than it does the bonus points. That's partially how he ended up beating someone in the base points with an earlier finish, but losing out in the JASON score due to the same earlier finish. MB explains it much better over there, so it's better to read his explanation than mine.

In any case, unless we're in a rush to finish, just to get out of this one and start the next, then we can take the time to build the extra techs and wonders, or at least until boredom grows beyond tolerance. My vote is to get Democracy.

RowAndLive is correct in his analysis of the scoring. I read the same post and came to the same conclusions.

What you have to do is monitor the score growth per turn and when it falls below the Jason growth per turn, then it's time to hurry to the finish.

There are a couple of phases to the game:

Initial Settling & Peaceful Expansion - Done
Conquest of Neighbors - Done
Local Island Expansion - In process
Relocation of remaining AI
Science & population growth (score boosting)
End game timing

At this point in the game we are interested in filling up all the valuable land (no reason to settle mostly mountain tile). Then (once Astronomy is discovered), found & gift exile cities to the AI, invade and conquer the other island, expand to the domination limit. At that point it's science & happy people until the launch.

Edit: I think we should probably switch to Democracy once it's available (lower corruption & faster workers). Also we should consider disbanding our military & joining native workers to cities to reduce per turn costs (more for science & happiness)

i guess i always admired the players who are able to get a space victory before 13 or 1400AD. I also thought the Jason multiplyer for an early space win was better than an early domination or conquest win (ie, you could win by space 500 years later than by conquest and still get a good bonus). guess i'm wrong.

our status right now @ 260AD (we got some serious expanding to do!):

T0 - 260AD: :)

T1: Pas Lib > Marketplace

IBT: Galley destroys Barb galley

T2: Babylon Settler > Marketplace Tyre Lib > Marketplace Antioch Settler > Marketplace. America started Great Wall

T3: Pers Settler > Marketplace Sardis Spear > Worker

T4: Teno Settler > Settler Arbela Settler > Harbor Ergili founded > Library

IBT: Galley destroys Barb galley and promotes to vet

T5: Sidon Lib > Settler Tarsus Settler > Galley Taxi Lib > Harbor Dariush K founded > Spear Lux to 70

IBT: Researched Engineering > Theology at 50 (11t)

T6: Several worker actions

T7: Bactra Settler > Marketplace

T8: Sardis Worker > Worker Gordium Lib > Galley Ghulaman founded > Worker Zohak founded > Spear

T9: zzz

T10: Teno Settler > Settler Istakhr founded > Library

T11: Jinjang founded > Worker

T12: Samaria Lib > Settler

T13: Sidon Settler > Settler

T14: Hamadan Lib > Marketplace, Nineveh Lib > Marketplace, Borazjan founded > Spear, Science to 30.

T15 - 410AD: Researched Theology > Education (at 70 in 7t), Dariush K Spear> Library.

Score: 366

Remark: The next player may want to switch a few marketplaces to a wonder or settlers. Also we need more galleys to pick up the settlers. The galleys should go to Taxi to pick up the settlers. We probably want to settle the island in NW now.

The save:
SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_410AD.sav)

Screenshot
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Leibniz_sgotm1_410AD.jpg

nice turns leibniz :) we finally have some decent expansion going on :)

we shouldn't forget about the fat part of our island as well. we should see if we could fit 2 or 3 more around the FP (between taxi and teno on coast, north of taxi, and maybe 1 more). we need all the low corruption cities we can get.

I've got it. Sorry I'm slow. Dispatches in the AM Pacific Time

Pre-flight – 410 AD – The Iroquois look like they already have a nice isolated island. I think I will have to capture their other two cities.

Plus they have some nice spices.

Make one or two changes.

IBT – Teno: Settler=> Market

1. 420 AD – Found Denydville.
IBT – Persepolis: Market=> Sistine
2. 430 – Nada
IBT – Ghulaman: worker=> library
3. 440 Found RowandLiveburg. Found Grahamiam Town
IBT – Arbela: Harbor=> Lighthouse (pre-build)
Hlbane: Library=>Court
4. 450 AD – Found Leibnizburg. Science down 10%
IBT – Tyre, Antioch: market=>aquaduct
Samaria: settler=> settler
5. 460 AD – Science down 10%
IBT – Education discovered. Astronomy next. Due in 8 at 60%.
Jinjan: worker=> Library
6. 470 – Nada.
7. 480 – Found Bugsville. Drop off a settler in a God forsaken place.
IBT – Sidon: Settler=>University
Gordium: Galley=> University
8. 490 – Crank science up 10%
IBT – Ergili: Library=> university
9. 500 – Found American Hell. Can you guess where we’re going to send Abe?
IBT – Babylon: Market=>University
Sardis: library=> Harbor
10. 510 – Science down 10%
IBT – Bactra: Market=> University
11. 520 – Nada
IBT – Samaria: Settler=> University
12. 530 - ZZZZZ
IBT – Astronomy comes in. Banking due in 5 turns at 80% (-17 gpt)
13. 540 - ZZZZZ
IBT – Susa: Market=> University
America builds the Great Lighthouse for us. :D
14. 550 – Set up for D-Day at Niagara Falls.
Change Arbela over to Great Library (pre-build)
IBT – Antioch: Duct=>University

15. 560 – Declare war on the Iroquois and land a force of four Immortals next to Niagara Falls. I would have gone for the mountain, but they had a worker there.

Gifted Abe the city of American Hell.

Score : 479

After Action: Teno will be done with its market next turn. Then build Cop’s there. It will be one of our best cities. You should be able to MM down to the low to mid forties.

We need to fish for a great leader or two. After Niagara and Salamanca fall, just let Hiawatha rot in his jungle town of Grand River. If he sends a unit forth, fish for a leader with the elite horse.

Then reduce Abe down to his only city of American Hell.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_-_Bugs,_560_AD.SAV

Edit - The sleep smilies aren't working. :(

Roster Check;

R & L - Up
Grahamiam - on deck
Denyd
Leibniz
Bugs - Just played

Nice moves, Bugs. I never should have doubted you guys that it would go down this quick. I had a whole different progression in mind, with a later take-out date, and competing / co-researching through the IA & MA, not just doing it ourselves with 2 happy cities. I see that Hiawatha has a coastal city. SHould I set him up with a land-locked one instead? It'll be easier to keep him contained that way.

Got it - will start tonight & finish tomorrow (hopefully).

A landlocked hell city would be OK also. Maybe over on that island NE of Grand River with all the desert.

Since Abe and Hiawatha aren't even halfway through the AA, I don't think they're going to be doing a lot of contribution.

Nice work SB - Excellent placement for the American Hell, the mountains will provide a great location for a couple of forted defenders to repel any ideas Abe has of expansion. (One scary thought, what if that's the location of the only uranium on the map)

I was thinking if we find an appropriate place to relocate the Iroquois, we might save them for the UN vote (a triple victory condition).

We have only to be careful of a domination victory and the timing of the launch with conquest to win this.

After all the other war-war-war games, this is a nice change of pace.

nice turns bugs :thumbsup: lots of cities sprouting up now! wish I could see the map, i'm sure covered with beautiful green.

like denyd stated, we need to be careful regarding the domination limit. we should all have mapstat so we can check while we're playing. we'll probably want to hover around 20-50 tiles under domination just so we don't get burned by an unexpected cultural expansion. I suspect we'll have close to 95% of the population on this map :lol:

nice turns Bugs,

yes we have to be careful regarding the domination limit. But using mapstat it seems that there is also land in the darkness. Probably we can settle all the landmasses that we can see.

It is very important to get a leader, so i suggest to use only the elites if we attack enemy units. The vets should only be defenders. If we only have red- or yellowlined elites we have the time to let them heal. If one elite produces Cyrus, we can use the vets for promotion.

Originally posted by denyd
(One scary thought, what if that's the location of the only uranium on the map)

Then we burn them and finish the game with only one opponent instead of two...

@Leibniz - What particular use did you have in mind for the leader? This would be a learning point for me, as to what the 1 leader should specifically be saved for. Thanks.

I think if we do get a leader, that an army would be the best use for him. The rest of the wonders will either be hand built or captured. An Army Victory would allow Heroic Epic & Military Academy (not that we'll need either). The only other option would be a palace jump to the middle of America. I think we might be to late for that without incurring any penalties.

We will need to load up a couple of workers soon to improve the new lands.

At this time our motto is Expand, Grow and Research (and while were at it, relocate the Americans & Iroquois to the nether regions).

Edit: Thought I'd mention that of the 10 teams who started this 7 have finished (6 wins & 1 loss). The other 2 got late starts. It looks like we'll be playing when all others are done. At least we'll know what the score to be is.

I don't think we'll need an army. I think we need to use him on a wonder... Cop's preferably. Just my $0.02

leader for cop's would be ok with me. wonder prebuild could then focus on Newton's. getting these wonders early would be most helpful. HE would be nice if we were planning a lot of wars but this will probably be the last. i would rather not face the palace jump penalty in our score.

I'm sorry, guys. I was asking because I thought that Leibniz had a particular item in mind, and I wanted to know what it was. Pessimistic / conservative as I tend to plan, I'm not expecting to get a leader anyway. We'll see.

My only reason for an army was to be able to build Military Academy & more armies & then the Pentagon.

An Army of 4 Infantry fortified in a mountain fort would keep America locked in place to the rest of the game. No other reason than that (except maybe to think about building owing all of the wonders the game in one game )

I had in mind that the leader can be used for cop to work on a science city as discussed. We want to have a 4 or 5 turn research cycle since the AI contributes nothing to global research.

It takes too long to build the useful wonders by ourselfs, so a leader would be nice.

I think we dont need happiness wonders at this time. We can simply catch the luxuries and marketplaces. And also we havent built too many aquaeducts and cathedrals. So Sistine Ch is probably not an option.

Edit: Just read Denyds comments on capturing wonders. I havent played at Regent many months, but i think, we shouldnt hope that the AI builds wonders right in time for us. We are an age ahead and i dont think the AI is able to build wonders as Cops before we reach the middle of IA.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Pessimistic / conservative as I tend to plan, I'm not expecting to get a leader anyway. We'll see.

Yes, we shouldnt expect to get a leader, but we should try to increase our chances. I think Copernicus could help us with research. In a good city with Library and University and enough gold it can make a big difference. Later we can build Newton and have a city that gives us a science output as 4 or 5 normal cities do.

My comments about capturing wonders are for what America has already built.

As for building happiness wonders, the sooner the better. We'll need a very happy population to get a high score. Scoring is based on the average score per turn and the turn by turn score includes happy faces. If we happen to get a GL, I'd shoot for Bach's or Sistine (or Smith's) before building Copernicus (which is a cheaper build than either [400 to 600 shields]).

Just a question:

Im not absolutely sure if i compute the science output of a city in the right way.

An example: Assume we have a city with 10g per turn. For simplicity we also may assume that theres no corruption.
Science is at 80, so we have 8 base science per turn.

Library gives 12. Add a university and we get 18 (or 16, if the University is applied at base science?). With Cop we have 36 and Newton 72. Is that the right way of computation. Or does it all apply to the base science?

Maybe i have saved a few old games with a science wonder to check it....

560AD – 0
no changes

IBT: American galley sails out to the E past Grand River.
Teno: market > university in 13.

570 – 1
Niagar Falls: Vet immortal -3 kills spear, Vet immortal -3 kills spear, Elite immortal -4 kills archer, captures slave & city. Elite immortal forts over wounded buds.
Niagara Falls > library in 40.

IBT: Sardis burns – add clown. Ergili riots – add clown. Ghulaman riots – add clown. Borazjan goofs off – add clown.
P’gadae: market > spear in 7.
The people are motivated by Earth Day, and plant trees on the terrace.

580 – 2
MM research down to 70% > bank in 1. Raise lux to 10% > cancel clown in Sardis, Ergili, Zohak.
Sell America Polytheism for WM + 88g + 4gpt.

IBT: Americans land sword/settler on desert island NE of Grand River.
Banking > Economics in 6.
Old riots die out. Zohak riots – add clown back in.

590 – 3
move units onto mountain outside Salamanca.

IBT: Chicago founded on island coast in mid desert.
Hamadan: market > university in 15 (over ‘duct, but wanted to). Tyre: ‘duct > university in 13. Taxi: harbor > ‘duct in 25.

600 – 4
Try to set Lincoln up for rep failure by buying wines for gpt, but he won’t do it. He wants 2 techs, horses & furs. No deal.

IBT: Iro archer -2/red kills a spear near to Grand River. Iro archer from Salamanca dies attacking a resting immortal -1 near Niagara Falls, ignoring the mini-SOD outside Salamanca.
Tarsus: harbor > university in 25. Kabir: library > spear in 10.
Americans complete GWall in Washington.

610 – 5
Salamanca: Elite immortal -1 kills spear, Elite immortal kills spear cleanly, Elite horse -3 kills spear & captures Salamanca. Borders collapse due to huge American influence (for now). We get the Oracle.
Salamanca > library in 40, grow in 7.
Spear near Jinjan attacks and kills red Iro archer.

IBT: P’gadae: spear > court in 16.

620 – 6
truckin

IBT: America demands horses. We spit in his eye and refuse. We demand wines, and he refuses.

630 – 7
movin on. Land settler & immortal on desert isle.

IBT: Zimbabwe: library > ‘duct in 100. Grahamiam Town: library > market in 34.
The people add a second story to the palace.

640 – 8
movin on.

IBT: Economics > feudalism in 4 (start toward Newton’s).
Antioch: university > harbor in 7 (can switch for bank in 14)

650 – 9
Heart founded on desert isle with control of horses.
Heart > library in 40.

IBT: Istakhr: library > university in 50.
American Galley sailing N near Ghulaman to uncharted waters. Will need to tail.

660 – 10
Zzzzzzz

IBT: Denydville: library > worker in 5, grow in 5.
Bugsville: library > university in 34.
The people demand addition of a third story to the palace.
Americans drop settler on N island.

670 – 11
Zzzzzz

IBT: Teno: university > court in 8. Nineveh: market > university in 17.
Jinjan riots – add taxman.

680 – 12
ready to invade America (limited)

IBT: feudalism > invention in 5.
Babylon: university > duct in 17.
Bactra: university > bank in 27. Ghulaman: library > pike in 10. RowandLiveburg: library > university in 50.


My plan was to hit America this turn & grab the 4 slaves, cut the road we’re parked on and pillage the iron. We could also see if our immortal could take out the sword on the desert isle. There’s another unescorted settler on the way there in a galley near his galley (S of it). Your choice.

sorry, i need a swap tonight.

btw, nice turns R&L :)

Leibniz, the slider setting only influences percentage of gold towards the research. So, in your example, if the city had a base of 10gpt, then at 80% = 8gpt towards research. my understanding is that then you multiply the base by the improvement. so, in your example, library =12g to science, lib + uni = 16g to sci, lib + uni + cop = 24g to sci, etc. change the slider to 100%, and you get 15, 20, 30, etc. That is why it's so important to road and have a river near a super science city. the base gold is very high and the multipliers for improvements really pay off. also, when you can turn down research (say with 1 or 2T left), markets & banks really pay off. in fact, in a 4T tech run, it's possible to do the 1st or 2nd turns at a deficit and then gain all the money back by lowering research with 1 or 2T left.

I could finnish 13-15 if the group would like, or we can go to Leibniz (switch with Grahamiam).

In any case, I forgot to post the score, and again forgot to post to the maintenance thread.

Let me know.

We have a gpt deal with America (they are paying us), so we might want wait on the war.

R&L - go and finish your 15 turns. If the G-man isn't ready, we can swap him and Leibniz.

We can probably settle for peace with Hiawatha soon, and then gift him his very own version of hell. Then when 20 turns are up, we can take Grand River.

I believe that if i swap with the next person, then denyd is up! I think this is the correct roster, right? :)

R & L - UP
grahamiam - On Deck, needing a swap
denyd - next?
Leibniz
Bugs

@ G-man - That what we'll do. Denyd will be in the #2 slot and you'll be in the #3.

Good explanation of the science. After libraries and Universities, Markets and banks will be critical to our success.

ok, just wanted to make sure. we will now have a hanover to hannover hand-off :D

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
We have a gpt deal with America (they are paying us), so we might want wait on the war.

I set that up with the idea that I wasn't going to collect on all of it, but I do agree that the limited was I was proposing wouldn't gain as much as the gpt. The idea was more to try to hurt him, and slow down his island expansion so that we don't have to chase them all down.

Will finish tonight, and hopefully post early enough for Denyd to play tonight.

Nice turns R&L :)


@grahamian

Thanks for your explanation. It was not clear to me that one has to apply the benefits of all the improvements (especially the wonders) to the base science.

Of course this makes a huge difference. So a city with Cop, Newton, Seti has the research effect as 4 normal cities and not as 8.

Switching is fine with me - I'm done with GOTM and just finished my other SG's, so I'm ready to play.

690 – 13
Change RowandLiveburg to caravel in 20. I see that our army is average compared to the Americans. Change P’gadae to immortal, wasting 5 shields (1 turn). Change Istakhr to immortal in 12. Change Grahamiam Town to immortal in 5. Change Nineveh to immortal in 4. Change Bugsville to immortal in 4. Change Babylon to immortal in 5.
Sell Abe our TM for WM + 69g.

IBT: P’gadae: immortal > court in 16. Tyre: university > immortal in 3. Susa: university > caravel in 5.

700 – 14

IBT: Make peace wit Iroquois for WM + 47g (all).

710 – 15
Drop settler on desert island N. Lost American galley.
Our army is now strong vs the Americans. We added 1 immortal, they dropped 1 settler?

Our settler on the N of desert isle needs to move N 1 before founding.

Denyd is UP!
Score is 608.

The map of the new colonies.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_860ad.sav)

Turn Log 4

Turn 0 – 710 AD – Find the Civ III disk - Reset personal preferences –Switch Persepolis to Copernicus (due in 7) – Switch Arbela to Sistine Chapel – Switch Antioch to Smith’s Trading Post – Up Science to 70% to get invention a turn earlier – Switch Kahulman to barracks – Switch Dariush Kabur to settler – Switch Susa to harbor

IBT: Samaria university->marketplace
Denydville worker->harbor

Turn 1 – 720 AD – Upgrade a galley – send other galleys to harbors for upgrade – begin collecting troops for American assault

IBT: Discover Invention research Gunpowder (due in 7)
Bugsville Immortal->marketplace
Tyre Immortal->Leo’s Workshop (switched to Copernicus and Persepolis takes over Leo’s)
Ninevah Immortal->University

Turn 2 – 730 AD – Settler founds Horsie town starts worker – Upgrade another galley

IBT: Babylon Immortal->Aqueduct
Dariush Kabur settler->worker
Ghulaman riots
Grahamiam Town Immortal->Marketplace

Turn 3 – 740 AD – Just moving a couple of units – workers continue improving the land

IBT: America complains about caravel in his waters
Hamadan University->aqueduct
Palace Expansion nets us a right wing

Turn 4 – 750 AD – Hurry harbor in Sardis – stacking up immortals for America

IBT: See 2 American galleys leave port
Teno courthouse->bank
Sardis harbor->marketplace
Hlobane courthouse->marketplace
Zohak riots
Ishkatar worker->barracks

Turn 5 – 760 AD – Switch wonder builds around to get something soon – Boats approaching Immortal stack – MM a couple of cites to improve production – slider to 4-5-1 to get gunpowder in 3

IBT: Zohak library->harbor
Palace Expansion adds a left wing

Turn 6 – 770 AD – First boatload of Immortals headed for America (btw: why did we build regulars?) – Just noticed Abe is in the middle ages

IBT: Persepolis builds Copernicus starts university

Turn 7 – 780 AD – Switch a couple of cites to aqueducts to let them grow – another stack of immortals ready for pickup – upgrade another galley

IBT: Discover Gunpowder research Chemistry due in 6
Taxi aqueduct->marketplace

Turn 8 – 790 AD – We have 3 connected saltpeter sites and one other available

IBT: Susa harbor->aqueduct
Ergli university->marketplace

Turn 9 – 800 AD – Still roading & irrigating – getting ready for assault on America

IBT: Borazjan library->worker

Turn 10 – 810 AD – Positioning troops for American attack

IBT: Leibnizburg library->marketplace

Turn 11 – 820 AD – Just a position and worker turn

IBT: Ghulaman barracks->marketplace
Horsie Town worker->library

Turn 12 – 830 AD – Not much happens besides worker actions and moving the attack force

IBT: Discover Chemistry research Physics due in 5
Sidon aqueduct->marketplace
Tarsus university->settler

Turn 13 – 840 AD – Declare war on America

IBT: 1 American Sword appears
Susa settler->settler
Heart spearman->library
Palace Expansion gets us a pretty dome

Turn 14 – 850 AD – Troops move to attack American cities – Caravel has a settler and will be picking up another 2 soon

IBT: Reg Immortal (1/3) defeats Sword
Vet Sword (3/4) kills Reg Immortal
Nineveh university-aqueduct

Turn 15 – 860 AD – Assault on Atlanta:
Vet Immortal (1/4) kills vet spear
Reg Immortal (1/3) kills reg spear, sinks a galley and Atlanta is ours

Assault on Philadelphia:
Elite Immortal (5/5) kills Vet Spear
Elite Immortal (3/5) kills Reg Spear and Philadelphia with harbor & aqueduct is ours

Elite Horse (2/5) kills Vet Sword

There are 4 Immortals poised for New York. There is a caravel with 3 Immortals NW of Atlanta, I was sending in to reinforce our troops, but that doesn’t seem necessary. Send it to take Chicago. There is a settler chasing the caravel W of Arbela (carrying 1 settler) and a horseman in Pasagarde that is heading to join the cruise to the island W of Denydville – the horseman is for the 2 huts. There are 2 caravels W of Samaria that are just exploring the area. I just checked and we are over the population limit already and are 137 tiles from domination. That’s quite a long way to go. We should be able to take the remaining American cities (except for American Hell) and settle an Iroquois Hell and take Grand River and still have room for a couple more settlements. Science is moving along well, Physics is due in 2 turns. I've got 4 or 5 cities building wonders. We should be able to get all of the wonders in the game, taking the 3 from America and building the rest ourselves. We might as well build them all as they don't have any maintence costs and they have some benefit to us. The Iroquois still need construction to complete the AA and Abe is in the middle ages, but has none of the techs yet.

If we had more production, I'd consider researching Music Theory for Bach's, but we currently are able to start all of the available wonders.

nice turns, both of you :goodjob:

I'll play and post tonight. Is Chicago good enough for the American hell? It's got enough sand to keep them small and allow for an easy kill at the end of the game.

G-man - your call on which hell to keep the Americans in. Landlocked might be better.

How close are we to the domination limit? I'll dig out Mapstat and find out.

Research is going well. 5 and 6 turns per tech is great progress. Keep growing the economy. We want to get to 4 turn research.

4 tech in Middle ages
16 IA techs
10 Modern techs.

That is a minimum of 120 turns of research. (I'm not counting a ToE bump with two free techs.)

We're already over the pop limit and we are 175 tiles from domination, so we'll need to start watching that. I would think we can turn off the settlers and just grow the economy. Courthouses in our 1 shield corrupt cities would be a good thing.

we get 1 useful free tech with Modern Age advancement (Ecology) so this is probably 19 techs, right? -2 for ToE and we have 17. I recommend saving ToE for the expensive Modern Age tech's, especially if we hit the 4T groove in the IA.

Do we want hospitals to boost our score? may be worth the 4T's, but not sure.

175 tiles is 9 towns with expanded borders. Coastal squares count, right? What about sea tiles?

Oh you are right! We'll get nationalism also, but that isn't required.

I agree with saving ToE for the Modern Age. Shouldn't be hard to do.

You are right about hospitals. In fact I would probably research steam, medicine, then sanitaion.

I'm more inclined to research Steam Power, Electricity, Replaceable Parts to get faster workers to rail our cities. Then go industrialization for factories before medicine & scientific method. I'm doubting that either of the remaining AI get out of the middle ages (unless we help them).

I left 1 settler on a boat, 1 chasing the boat and 1 in process. America has 6 cities (plus their little gulag) and the Iroquois have 1 (plus the reservation we'll be sending them to). That should be all of the cities that we'll need to get close to the domination limit.

Be sure to use one of those cities to lock the Americans in up north [edit: That could be San Francisco, already there]. I'm wondering if the 8 turns (plus an anchary period for the revolt) to get printing press & democracy could be recovered by the reduced corruption and improved science. I don't think so, but maybe somebody has worked the numbers before.

We'll probably want marketpplaces, banks, libraries, universities in all of our cities and harbors & aqueducts where needed. I mentioned factories earlier, we should probably add them to our most productive cities for use in building the advanced improvements and space ship parts. Do we have a place on the home island that could build Hoover? The extra boost from power plants would be nice.

Question for the team: When is is time to start irrigating all available tiles to improve growth and sacrifice the shield of the existing mines?

In case people were curious as to why I started the American campaign as soon as I did, I wanted to be sure to reduce America to a single city Abe got feudalism and would be able to defend with pikes against our Immortals.

Just a quick check on the happiness meter:
We've got ivory, furs, dyes, spices, incense and will soon have wines. That's 6 happy faces, increased by marketplaces and added to the Regent level bonus should allow us to have size 12 cities without needing any luxury taxes or entertainers.

I just noticed that America founded another city next to American Hell. We'll need to send a couple of Immortals up there to acquire that.

Sorry about the regulars, Denyd. I was just trying to crank out a couple of units to deal with the expansion that Abe was doing, and used the cities that weren't tied into longer projects / waste too many shields. Nice :hammer: though. The first core cities fell fast.

I definitely agree on the hospitals, and had been tempted to do them during my turns, but wasn't sure enough of timing the need to have the larger size cities for production. I'll go along with the group.

If I remember correctly, we only had 1 city greater than size 8, so it's probably too early to start researching sanitation. We'll need it before the game is over, but we'll have time later.

Does anyone have the list of beaker costs? I'd like to plan when TOE is built to get the most expensive techs from that wonder.

Has anyone else noticed the different feel to this game than most of the other games you are playing? It seems like the tech pace is flying by, while the cities are growing very slowly and improvements seem to take along time to build. I can't remember the last time I had wonders available and no city able to start them.