Welcome to your SGOTM1 game thread.


First some procedural stuff.
Although the rules for SGOTM have not been set in stone yet, we will be playing to the rules listed >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1733966#post1733966)
Please take the time to read them.

Here is a reminder of your start position
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/civ3gotm1b.jpg

Here are the two saves.

SGOTM1-CivIII1.29f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1NAME-4000BC.SAV)

SGOTM1-PTW1.27f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1PTWNAME-4000BC.SAV)

IMPORTANT REMINDER
The file naming format that you use to pass the game on must be rigidly adhered to in order to prevent games getting mixed up.

Name your save files like this

SGOTM1TEAMNAME-DATE.SAV

For example - SGOTM1STAFF-3000BC.SAV

Later on it may be possible to submit the saved games through the GOTM server for scoring purposes. Alanh will have special requirements for doing this which will be made clear at that time.

Roster

Bugs
denyd
Rowandlive
grahamiam
Leibnitz

The order shown above is not the order you must play. When you have decided on your order of play I will amend the Roster above.

The first player plays to the end of the 3000BC turn (turn 20)
Everyone else plays 10 turns from there. Please try to stick to this. People finishing on the wrong turn is my biggest headache beleive it or not.

EDIT: 3000BC is turn 20 of course.

OK, straight coast lines from N to W and from E to S, each 1 tile out, a fur and a BG. I'd recommend against going N, as it puts us on a point. If we want coastal, then IMHO moving 1 NW or 1 SE is the way to go, as we will still get both bonus tiles after growth, which comes up pretty quick. If we don't want coastal, then settle in place.

Otherwise, we need to finish our goals discussion.

haha, i get to post 1st! :D

btw, i have to go out of town to visit family Fri-Sun so please either place me 1st/2nd or last in the order (i don't mind opening but realize R&L asked for the privledge)

also, please tell me more about playing without starting wars. the only time i did that was my very 1st game and i nearly fell asleep at the end.

thanks,
grahamiam

damn, R&L beat me :)

Hi,

is it possible to play in the format civ1.29f? Im resticted to this.

Originally posted by grahamiam
(i don't mind opening but realize R&L asked for the privledge)

I didn't request to go first, but I certainly don't mind either. No greediness here.

the only time i did that was my very 1st game and i nearly fell asleep at the end.

Unless you're in conquest mode, the late game is always somewhat of a bore. That's why I either try to kill it off in the MA, or drop it for a new start if it gets too bad.


I have no problem with vanilla 1.29. Team?

It was mentioned that a never at war game can get a little blah in the end (workers clearing pollution is not very exciting), but trying to figure out how to get > 100K during the same turn with the launch and vote is a real brain churner. There isn't any bonus for a never at war game, so we might want to skip that if a high finish is a team goal.

Another possible is a variant on the 5CC, where we can only build 5 cities, but additional cities may be captured. (just stirring the pot :D) (also no scoring bonus)

Check out this thread for an example (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59366)

Is this going to be PTW or Vanilla?

I can play both.

i can play both too but it will have to be vanilla so we can all play. i think that's better since the original was played with this :)

I like the idea with the three victory conditions :)

Never thought about this before. What do you think: Will we have to slow down our spaceship progress or selling cultural improvements?

It really all depends on how many cities you have pumping our culture and how many tech partners you have contributing to the research of advanced techs.

Sometimes you're selling off culture buildings, sometimes your overbuilding the last spaceship part and sometimes you have to do both to wait for the UN election to come up.

I don't remember anything about this, but being that this is a small map on regent, we might have to really crowd in the cities to get enough culture for the 100k. I'm also pretty sure the tech pace is sped up a small map. So we'll probably be waiting for culture to arrive rather than having to sell off any buildings.

One more thing to make this tough is we'll probably have to build every culture producer in each city and that gets expensive. We may need to slow down the science because we can't afford to research at maximum.

All in all, a triple whammy (space/diplomacy/culture) is a tough path on this map. Anybody want to modify the objective to UN & Space only and let wars happen as needed?

I think we're committed to playing this in vanilla.

Let's go with this roster:

R & L - UP
grahamiam - On Deck
denyd
Leibnitz
Bugs

Leibnitz, I think this is your first SG, so welcome aboard. I'll sandwich you between denyd and myself for grins.

So it sounds like we have some question as to what our variant will be. I think trying to get a spaceship and 100K will be a challenge. But to get 100K without war on a small map (I think this is a small map) will be difficult. 20K is very do-able on Regent.

I think the other thing we will want to discuss is the start. I don't see a lot of reason to move off the start tile. It isn't like there is a shortage of forest tiles about. What does the team think?

ok, i guess we're still waiting for Bugs to check in before starting or getting the roster setup. As far as victory conditions go, I say we shoot for all 3 and see how it goes. If we find that we can't do it, then we can always change course.

question: how often do UN votes come up? is it every 10T? answers not urgent, i think we still may have some time :)

Not having done these types of games, I don't have a feel for how this really goes, but it sounds complicated. Is complicated better / more fun, or just something to cover up boredom? Spaceship can be exciting if you're in a race, or if you're threatened with nukes. Diplo you're never really sure (except maybe in Bugs1), and do mucho gifting, but it is enjoyable. Trying to do both as well as culture just sounds frustrating. I'll certainly go along as the group decides, but perhaps a 5CC spaceship is OK too.

Of course, from what Denyd just said, it sounds like a good excercise in how to slow down the tech pace, while upping the culture pace, and still being able to build the SS in time. I must admit that I was recently impressed with the 5CC dual 20K and 100K win that Bamspeedy (IIRC) pulled off.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think the other thing we will want to discuss is the start. I don't see a lot of reason to move off the start tile. It isn't like there is a shortage of forest tiles about. What does the team think?
I'd at least like to take a look around by moving the worker to the southern hill. Maybe there's some fresh water nearby and we can irrigate that game.

I played a 20K in GOTM 22 and it was very challenging. It would be even more so if you don't get any leaders, or very few. The key to that will be getting a very early second city.

The culture and space goals work against each other, which might make things very interesting.

Got it.

I'll try to start tomorrow night, and post on Thursday night. I don't remember, but was this a 30 turn start? Or was than a different thread?

You are going to play until the end of the 3000 BC turn. Everyone else will play 10 turns.

I think that is a beaver AKA furs. I don't see any food. Moving to the southern hill sounds like a good idea. The northern hill looks like it will show coast-forest-forest

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think that is a beaver AKA furs. I don't see any food. Moving to the southern hill sounds like a good idea. The northern hill looks like it will show coast-forest-forest
right! looks like i need a new prescription :)

i would like to throw out a couple of ideas to the team to see what we all think.

re: research: thinking about this last night and, imho, our best bet would be pottery, alpha, writing, CoL, Philosophy (in that order) all at max (with profit), then research Republic (min or max, depending on game situation). This will get us to our ideal AA-MA bob-the-builder/research gov't asap. All other tech's we can trade for and, hopefully, we can get CB fairly early. I'm assuming that the AI will get at least to HBR and IW by the time we have Republic. Once the shackles of despotism are off us, we can look at the tech tree and decide what we want to research next. we will also be able to get all the other AI's into republic faster, thus increasing thier research abilities.

re: wonders: we start with BW and Mas, so we can go for Colossus fairly early if we wish. This will boost our income thus increasing research. not sure about the worthiness of any others at this point. Pyramids would be ok but i don't think we'll be large enough to benefit. GLib provides lots of culture but the shield investment is large and we probably won't get many tech's from it. GLight will be useless on this map and provides less culture than a library. HGardens will probably be out of reach if we go for Republic as outlined above. Great Wall is overpriced for what it does.

anyways, these are just ideas to kick around. main goal early, of course, is to expand and find everyone which we should be able to do fairly quickly with the size of the map.

good luck R&L :)

I have a question. We have 2 future city sites at 5 out to maximize tiles. We could go denser, but all it will gain us is water. Unfortunately, the S city will be landlocked with many tiles, and the N city will be coastal / canal with only 1 BG + 4G and further from the map center. No way to get fish off of Persepolis corner. (I'd do a screenshot, but no idea how to capture the image.)

4000BC – 1
Move Ann S to hill. See 3 more furs, with the initial fur being the upper right of a square on the diagonals.
Found Persepolis on start tile, exposing that the 2 forest NE are coastal. There is a peninsula extending to the NW from immed N of the city.
Persepolis > warrior in 5.
Research to Alpha in 34.

3950 - 2
Ann NE.

3900 - 3
Ann NE.

3850 – 4
Ann mines.

3800 – 5
Zzzzzz

3750 – 6
Persepolis: warrior > warrior in 5
Al NE. See peninsula with a wide band of coast, so it could be a bridge. Otherwise sea is 1 out.

3700 – 7
Al NE. Ann roads.

3650 – 8
Al W. Oh yes, definitely a bridge!

3600 – 9
Al NW, sees GH NNW. Ann WSW. Fish on Persepolis corner. :sad:

3550 – 10
Persepolis: warrior > settler in 10, grow in 1.
Push Lux to 10%.
Al NE. Ben S. Ann road.

IBT – we expand. See another GH SSW of Ben.

3500 – 11
Ben S. Al N – Assyrians teach us pottery. Peninsula continues N.
Switch Persepolis to warrior in 3, since otherwise settler in 9, but grow in 10.

3450 – 12
Al N – land widening. Ben SW – Parthians teach us WC.

3400 – 13
furs linked to Persepolis.
Ben SW, sees another fur 4SW1S from Persepolis. Al N, sees 2 spices to W. Ann SW.

3350 – 14
Persepolis: warrior > settler in 10, @2, grow in 7.
Ann road. Ben SW. Al N, reaches point – now to follow spices.
Cam ENE.

3300 – 15
Ben S, spots another choke point SSE. Cam SW. Al SW.

3250 – 16
Al W, bridge continues. Ann S. Ben S. Cam 1W2SW.

3200 – 17
Cam SW. Ann road. Ben SE. Al W, sees end of point, but land across single tile.

3150 – 18
Al W – sees 3 mountains, 2 hills, 1 desert, 1 ?grass? across straight. Can SW. Ben S, land widens.
Our problem is definitely no water…

3100 – 19
Cam S. Ben S. Al E. Ann S.
MM Persepolis to get settler in 4, grow in 4.

3050 - 20
Cam E. Ben S. Al SE. Ann W.

3000 - 21
Ann road. Cam E, can see fringe of coast tile across sea to E. Al NE. Cam S, sees dk green expanded border & 3 tiles (2G, 1 game). Space Race would indicate Aztecs. (Others Zulu, Babs, Iroquois, America) Sees another game 2 beyond border.

SUMMARY:
Score 53
Persepolis @2, grow in 2, settler in 2. 3 warriors, 1 worker. Want +1 worker, IMHO.
Zimbabwe, Salamance @3; rest @1. We’re 3rd in population, land area & productivity, so only 2 have built. 4th in GNP, 2nd in approval, Mfg Goods & Fam Size.

Alphabet due in 7, only short CB & wheel on first tier.
Aztecs on same landmass to S – should rush settler (due in 3) down to found a blocking city, IMHO. Probably on hill 1 N of Cam.

Enjoy!

RowAnd Live - please play another turn. You take the game at the end of turn zero and play to the end of 3000BC.

Once you have done this could you post the Firaxis score too please? Thanks. :D

MB, I have to go 30 turns, right? So 11 more. I just wanted to ask about planting a city, and find out how to capture the screen.

Thanks.

Oops, sorry. 1 more turn, RIGHT!

Originally posted by RowAndLive
(I'd do a screenshot, but no idea how to capture the image.)


when in the game, hit alt + print screen. Then, got to "Paint" and hit cntrl+v (paste) and the screen should show up. you then need to save it as a JPG file and upload it to the Upload 7 folder on CFC (or another website of your choice).

You can then add it to a post per the instructions on the SG forum thread.

btw, nice turns :) and i will get it after you finish and will play tonight.

The save:

The screen:

wow! i take back all i ever said about the GLight. i didn't realize we would be so isolated.

good job getting the screen up R&L! it's a pain to learn but easy once figured out :)

Actually, it was easier than I thought, as I just did it the same way I attached the save file - in the attach block at the bottom of of the posting block - and it worked! I did get some brief message about something or other not being allowed or not working, but it didn't stay up long enough for me to read it.
=======================

You can see on the map where the road leading south ends, with a worker 2SW of that last road. My original intent was to build city 2 on the hill E of the worker, and S of the road end. The worker is roading in prep for planting that city. Problem 1 - no coastal access, but good shields. Problem 2 - Aztecs to S, and a need to block their expansion. I don't remember if the mini was included in the image, but if not, it is pretty clear that we're on a board spanning landmass with water access only at the N end, and perhaps the S end to. As such, we will likely be a target for others looking to plant canal cities.

City 3 was to be built N of the woods, NE of the BG on the minorly expanded land to the N of the capital. It will also serve as a canal. City 4 could be on the N end of the S choke point.

Your choice on where to found Pasgardae, but my vote is going S to block, on the hill farther N from Monty's capital, and closer to the choke. That will grab all of the tiles there, preventing an end run without trespassing. You could also send Cam S to block that lower choke point.

Also, Monty will have CB, so trade him pottery if poss, and avoid BW. Then we'll just need wheel, but if we block fast enough, we should be able to keep any potential horse and iron for ourselves. Of course, it must be a given that there will be no iron in our territory....

Well this is different! Some thoughts.

1. We need map making and we need it as soon as possible. Initially it was thinking that going for Alphabet first was :smoke: , but it is turning out to be a great move.

2. We need to get our next city on the chokepoint, and we need to get some cities south of the choke then back fill. We should place a warrior on the choke until we get a city.

3. Water is going to be a huge issue. If there is water south of the Aztecs we can have a large irrigation project, but that won't happen until the ADs.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
You can see on the map where the road leading south ends, with a worker 2SW of that last road. My original intent was to build city 2 on the hill E of the worker, and S of the road end. The worker is roading in prep for planting that city. Problem 1 - no coastal access, but good shields. Problem 2 - Aztecs to S, and a need to block their expansion. I don't remember if the mini was included in the image, but if not, it is pretty clear that we're on a board spanning landmass with water access only at the N end, and perhaps the S end to. As such, we will likely be a target for others looking to plant canal cities.

problem #3, no food. if you look at the suggested location, we will have 2 plains, 3 hills, 3 desert, maybe 1 forrest with furs. I don't see how this city can get beyond a size 2 since we can't irrigate anything. I suggest the location S, SE (hill) of the lost worker. At least there's grass there and access to water (food when harbor is built). It'll also act as a canal and somewhat of a southern block.

Northern location sounds fine. We may also want a city distance 3 SW on the furs so we can get to the fish and a grass. this will increase corruption on cities further out but will add the fish once it expands.

blocking further south may be fruitless. It appears to be the Aztec capitol and should be producing a settler soon. imho, I'd rather have a city closer by, adding to our research right now than a far off, flip risk city that is high in corruption. also, settlers will be few and far between with this land so we must concentrate them around our core as best as possible.

imho, map making should be researched after writing as we'll need the galleys to meet other civ's and harbors for food.

Flip risk won't be an issue. The Aztecs don't usuualy build a lot of culture right away. One temple will keep a city from flipping.

The Aztecs will be a military risk with their Jags. A chokepoint city with three military units will keep us safe.

A good rule of thumb is to expand towards the opposing civs and then back fill. We will have limited land. We need to grab as much as possible.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
A good rule of thumb is to expand towards the opposing civs and then back fill. We will have limited land. We need to grab as much as possible.
ok, but it will take us 2 + 10 turns to get down there. i see your point about grabing as much land as possible. personally, i'd rather have a 2nd city before then but will do whatever the team wishes :)

I agree on the land grab. Also, Grahamiam, thanks for the food analysis - I didn't think of that (obviously)! In that case, when backfill time comes, we can plant a city on each coast. I agree on the change in tech development - it just makes sense. Once we block the choke, speed won't be a horrendous issue, but we may still want to pursue wheel after MM to get us the 2mp units.

As far as seeing an Aztec settler soon, since the cap is @1, I'm guessing that he already spawned it, and I'm hoping that it went S. If not, we can out-race the settler to the choke - just not it's escort. :)

Originally posted by grahamiam

ok, but it will take us 2 + 10 turns to get down there. i see your point about grabing as much land as possible. personally, i'd rather have a 2nd city before then but will do whatever the team wishes :)

ANother way to think of it is that you get a few less-corrupt turns out of the city before planting in between. If you just want tiles, then at the distance given, we'll be planting #3 at about the same time as #2.

Well, so much for playing a peaceful game :o

It looks like Montezuma just got a giant target painted on his chest.

I think Writing->Iron Working->Map Making is the way to go. Keep building settlers in the capital and send that first settler S to the grassland choke point (use a warrior to block it for now) to give us a chance to expand before the wars start. We can research Map Making while the Immortals are removing the Aztecs. We'll need to start building veteran warriors in all of the new cities. Once Iron Working is in, drop research to minimum to build up the bank for Immortal upgrades. We'll can take out the Aztecs with 4-6 Immortals, if we are quick enough. The bad news is that means a really early Golden Age.
The good news is if we do that, we might have the whole island to ourselves.

I'd still like to shoot for a Space/Diplo combo victory (culture probably is out with this little dirt), but we'll need to start out with some :hammer: to grab enough land to have a shot at it.

Remember this is Vanilla civ, so slaves are cheaper, Monotheism/Nationalism/Ecology are the bonus techs (we are scientific), no MDI or Rambo units and no Internet/Commercial Dock/Stock Exchange.

Whatever we do, I'm glad we cancelled our peaceful game plans.

R & L - Just played
grahamiam - UP
denyd - On Deck
Leibnitz
Bugs

I agree with Denyd that culture is out with this shield poor land.

We can't buy any workers until 1000 BC, unless we can prove that a civ has at least two others.

delete post, stupid question. he used F11 at the end of his turns. good tactic.

If they have a settler, I bet it is waiting for an escort. Good question on how he figured that out though. F11?

As to a team motto:

"Well, that's no ordinary rabbit, That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on." (http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Monty_Python=mp11.wav)

Originally posted by denyd
As to a team motto:

"Well, that's no ordinary rabbit, That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on." (http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Monty_Python=mp11.wav)
;) ;), :nudge: :nudge:

You tit! I soiled my armour I was so scared!

Originally posted by grahamiam
delete post, stupid question. he used F11 at the end of his turns. good tactic.

Thanks! I susally do it at the end of every turn to see when and how many settlers / workers are being spawned, but for some reason I forgot to do that here.

Nice to hear that we have cancelled the peaceful plans.

I agree that blocking the choke point is first priority.
I also agree that we should research IW before MM to eliminate Montezuma asap.

luckily, this is regent. this would actually be difficult if higher.

here is the 2550BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_2550bc.sav)

Preflight check: MM Persepolis off hill and onto roaded fur. Research time drops from 7T to 6T. Increase sci slider to 100% and time drops to 5T. Damn, worker has used up his movement for this turn. I would have moved him NE so we could shave 2T off southern movement of settler to the south. oh well, guess i'll let him finish so we can have 5 roaded tiles headed south. should improve warrior/immortal migration south.

T1: 2950BC
Meet the Aztec. They have CB and 2 cities (cap + 1), we have Mas. They are willing to do a straight up trade but I hold off since they don't have any gold.

T2: 2900BC
Persepolis settler -> barracks allow research to continue at -1gpt. Warrior moves SE into Aztec territory

IBT: Aztecs ask us to leave, ok, no problemo

T3: 2850BC
settler continues south, warrior waits for him. Worker finishes road and moves NE, aztec's still polite :)

T4: 2800BC
Setter/warrior move south, worker begins roading plain

T5: 2750BC
Settler/warrior move south (I miss my group move button :( ); warrior near aztec moves onto hill and spots a cow. Adjust slider so we make +0gpt vs -1gpt.

IBT: learn alpha, research writing at min since max research will do it in 40T anyways.

T6: 2710BC
worker moves to woods S of city, warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T7: 2670BC
worker chops, warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T8: 2630BC
warrior explores, warrior/settler move S

T9: 2590BC
Pasargadae founded at choke (canal location). I like this position as it will allow a city to be built later that has access to the game to the south. Set to build worker. Income jumps to +4gpt so I adjust sci slider to get writing in 32T vs 37T.

IBT: palace gets a facelift

T10: 2550BC
warrior explores and has obviously run into a pennisula. Will need to move south thru Aztecs to see if anyones down there.

Notes: worker chop appears perfectly timed to give us the barracks as soon as the pop increases. That should allow the next player to start building the 2nd settler. We make 3spt so it should be 10T :( maybe some MM can help but I can't see it. Worker probably should road some grass so we can get some more gold while building the 2nd settler.

Monty still hasn't built up any gold so next player might want to trade for CB.

Final note: R&L, I noticed that you had renamed the units but I cannot find that option in Civ3. it's been a while since i've played vanilla civ but i can't remember this option being available. did you play with PTW?

visuals. as you can see, this is our sleepy little empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs2550.JPG

Things are looking good. I wonder what is to the south. I like where you placed Pasagardae grahamian. I wonder if there is any water on this land mass. This may turn into a battle over water rights.

R & L
grahamiam - Just played
denyd - UP
Leibnitz - On Deck
Bugs

i was thinking about this game last night and, imho, i believe that the best build for our capitol right now is a granery, rather than a barracks. i don't think we can go on with 20T between settlers. with a granery, we can cut it in half to 10T. not great (not even really good) but better. i'd hate to start a GA with only 3 cities. that will completely mess up this game. denyd, if you agree with this, then please change :)

with the chop, we should finish the granery in 9T which will be good because we'll be 3T from size 3 and the granery will fill. we can build a warrior then settler in 13T. roads and mines on the grass should help too.

also, when do the barb's show up? i expected to find some camps but didn't. maybe we ought to get that northern warrior back to the capitol to provide cover in case a camp pops up between our cities. iirc, vanilla civ barbs go directly for the cities or units, they're not as erratic as in PTW.

Originally posted by grahamiam
Preflight check: MM Persepolis off hill and onto roaded fur. Research time drops from 7T to 6T. Increase sci slider to 100% and time drops to 5T. Damn, worker has used up his movement for this turn. I would have moved him NE so we could shave 2T off southern movement of settler to the south. oh well, guess i'll let him finish so we can have 5 roaded tiles headed south. should improve warrior/immortal migration south.

I had hill being worked to get the settler in 4 instead of in 5 if I worked the fur. The city would have grown in 3 on the fur, but I wanted the settler sooner. Also, I had sent a post at 9:25am, before completing that next-to-last turn to ask about city placement, and you responded at 9:45, but didn't address the question. I edited my post at 10:01am, deleting the question and including the final play information, moving the worker and started roading the furs.

Final note: R&L, I noticed that you had renamed the units but I cannot find that option in Civ3. it's been a while since i've played vanilla civ but i can't remember this option being available. did you play with PTW?

No, I just named them in my posting so that it would be easier for people to trace back what was done. I played in vanilla.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
I had hill being worked to get the settler in 4 instead of in 5 if I worked the fur. The city would have grown in 3 on the fur, but I wanted the settler sooner. Also, I had sent a post at 9:25am, before completing that next-to-last turn to ask about city placement, and you responded at 9:45, but didn't address the question. I edited my post at 10:01am, deleting the question and including the final play information, moving the worker and started roading the furs.
yes, but i didn't see the pic till after the question ;) no worry, though. i just like to post in a "stream of conscience" way. that allows others to critique and show where i've made a mistake in my thinking.
i see your point regarding the settler & working the furs, though you can see that somewhat diligent MM'ing does have it's rewards :)

I got it

Plans for my little 10 turn rule:

1. Switch Persepolis to Granary and build ASAP (w/o rushing)
2. Switch Pasagarde to Barracks and build ASAP (w/o rushing)
3. Build as many Vet Warriors as possible in Pasagarde
4. Keep our exploring warrior moving to see what's out there
5. Research Writing at minimum then Iron Working
6. Try to add a couple more cities to our empire
7. Stay out of any wars

I took a first shot at a dot map for our little nation

Red first for barracks and more vet warriors
Blue next same plan, this is also our southern canal city
One of the Orange dots is next (also a canal city), which dot is chosen is based on if any BG are available (can't tell from picture)
Green is next on the dyes (that's 2 luxuries)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs_dot1.jpg

Given the poor food situation I was thinking a slightly denser build. For example we're not using the fish. I'll draw one up . BTW, canal cities are not going to be lacking. Pasargadae is a canal city already.

nice dotmap, however, red dot is not ideal. i believe, based on the location, it will only grow to size 2 (can't build a harbor to get 2 food from coast) so you may want to rethink. I would suggest 2 cities on the coast and R&L and I discussed yesterday. 1 tile in almost any direction will work a little better (i prefer 1 tile W :) ).

we may also want to consider the location 3 tiles SW, on the fur. this will give us the fish and can share a grass (we're not gonna be bigger than size 6 for a while).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs2550_proposal.jpg

This is just a proposal. Like Denyd, it is hard to see if any of the tiles to the north are BGs. I don't think they are. This plan will make sure we don't have any wasted tiles. Later in the game they can all become fishing villages for the commerce.

Red dot grabs the fish on expansion. The black dots are tundra cities. Obviously we'll want to grab the dyes.

Thoughts?

iirc, blue is on the BG. 1 tile NE is just grass. nice work on the dotmaps, both of you :) bugs' layout to the south is what i had in mind.

So we'll want to shift the blue dot probably 1 NE. There is just so little dirt to work with. Maybe that's why this was a regent game.

I liked the blue spot as a canal city, but I missed that Pasagarde can already do that.

Good point about the fish, we shouldn't waste any bonus that's available.

My dots were based more on the what I think is best for the Industrial Age and beyond. I'm so used to planning for large late game cities, that's how I tend to place them in the early part of the game. Unless we get some fresh water somewhere, these are all max size 6 cities anyway.

Considering we might never make it to the Modern Age unless we decide on a multi-type win, were better off with the Bugs layout.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the red or pink end up as the FP city with the Palace moving somewhere with more dirt. It's a good thing this is Regent. On emperor+ this would be a very difficult setup.

We should probably skip temples (unless 100k is a goal) and wait for libraries for our culture building.

That's something we probably should decide upon now. What is our target victory condition? If culture is included, we'll need some early temples & libraries.

AW is out and so is OCC, I don't really like the xCC games (too limiting). All other variants are ok with me and any of the victory conditions sounds fine.

We could try a get them all type finish. Have a game where the UN, Space, culture, histograph & conquest (domination doesn't count) all happen at the same time. Not sure if it's ever been done or if it's even possible. Something tells me from looking at the results of the first time this was played, that it wasn't that difficult of a game to win. We'd probably have 100+ turns to set it up after we reach the domination limit (but we'd need early culture to set it up).

conquest + space should be doable fairly easily.
getting timed with a 100K win would be pretty tricky, especially as an SG, but doable.
conquest + UN i don't think can be achieved unless we do some spectacular planning and trap settlers on mountains or have 3 small civ's left with huge army's next door that can wipe them out in 1 turn. getting the 3 to vote for us may be tricky if we've knocked them down so low. however, if we do it early enough, we may be able to get them on our side.
conquest + space + histiograph is doable but will take a long time.

btw, how do we submit a multi win game? do we submit multi saves for the same date with different victory types?

Just end the game each way and submit the different splash screens and saves and MB will credit us with a multi-type win. If I remember the rules correctly, different variants combine the bonuses, so getting 3 types at the same time might (should) be a 20% bonus and 4 types a 30%. If he's using the Jason calculator, we'll need all bonuses to equal out for not winning ASAP via domnation/conquest (which Jason seems to favor).

If we're going to do multiple, we can do:
1. Conquest & Space
2. Space & Diplo
3. Diplo & Culture
4. Space & Culture

We don't get any extra credit for more than two victory conditions, so let's not think about those. And I don't want to play 540 turns to get a histograph win.

I'm thinking that number one might be fun. Number four would be the toughest to judge.

Getting 100K culture is going to require killing most everyone off (it's a small map) so I like the Space / Conquest idea also.

Let's kick off with agressive growth (pack in as many cities as possible, I like your dot map better than mine for that purpose), research Writing to IW then head for literature (for libraries) & Republic. In this game nothing hits harder than Immortals until cavalry, so make use of them while we can. They should be quite effective alone until muskets and then they'll need cats for the larger opponent cities.

Early city builds would be barracks & warriors and then libraries for culture/research. Given the dry start it might be better to get iron attached sooner rather than later as there might not be much upgrade gold available.

my vote is for space/conquest as well.

at this level, is there any hope that they AI can help research? probably not, so the tight build makes even more sense as it will give us more cities contributing research.

next research should depend on what we find south of Monty. if its just coastline and 0 civ's, then we may want to consider MM before IW or maybe after IW but before Lit. well, let's just be flexible for now and see how it goes.

R&L and Leibniz, what are your thoughts on VC's?

btw, i'm out of town Fri and Sat night so either skip or switch me if i'm up.

good luck :)

I like Space + ?, simply because I haven't had a space win since Civ 1. Given that this a small map, in order to prevent win by domination, we're going to have to raze many cities. As such, that alone makes 100K and Diplo inconceivable and extremely unlikely. 20K would be possible, but not on the land where we start - a VERY early wipe of the Aztecs would be required to get their space and pop support capability. The end of histograph would just be too slow / boring. I think Space + Diplo might be doable with trapped settlers as mentioned, but Space + Conquest seems like the most attainable, and active enough to keep it hopping (listen to me, a builder sounding like a warmonger...). I agree to S + C.

FIRST THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_2150bc.sav)

Score: 70 at 2150 BC

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 2550 BC – Switch Persepolis to Granary – it turns out Pasagarde might as well build the worker first due to corruption – Decide to wake the Pasagarde warrior for scouting - Considering the # of units, cities and the time to research, this should be a quick 10 turns – ok here we go

IBT: zzz

Turn 1 – 2510 BC – Warrior1 (SW of home) move NE spots another dye – Warrior2 (fresh from garrison) moves S spots a game and Aztec Worker – Warrior3 (N) heading home – someday we’ll need to trade for Ceremonial Burial from the Aztecs but not this turn

IBT: Worker completes chop and granary lead-time down to 7

Turn 2 – 2470 BC – Worker starts road – MM Persepolis to build in 4 (grow in 20) – Warrior3 heading home – Warrior1 confirms no more land NE of Aztecs – Warrior2 S near coast

IBT: Persepolis grows to size 2

Turn 3 – 2430 BC – Warrior2 S spots a Jag in the desert – Warrior1 S – Warrior3 next to Persepolis

IBT: Jag moves off – Worker completes road

Turn 4 – 2390 BC – Warrior2 W into Aztec land – Warrior1 SW – Worker starts to mine furs – Warrior3 in Persepolis – Up research to reduce writing to 19

IBT: Monty wants us to leave , sure, no problem

Turn 5 – 2350 BC - Warrior3 heads to Pasagarde – Warrior1 S spots an red border (we’ve got company) – Warrior2 S next to Aztec capital guarded by a spearman

IBT: Barb Warrior runs up at and attacks Warrior3 and we win (3/3) – Persepolis Granary-> Settler – MM for growth in 8 settler in 10

Turn 6 – 2310 BC – Warrior3 moves to hill next to Barb Village - Warrior1 S to meet our new friends – Warrior2 SW finds a cow next to the size 1 Aztec capital

IBT: Warrior2 kicked out of Aztec land the right way – worker completes mine

Turn 7 – 2270 BC – Worker moves to grassland – Warrior3 (3/3) kills a BW – Warrior1 S to find out Babylon has taken an Aztec city (!!) – Trade Alphabet + Masonry +9g to Babylon for The Wheel + Iron Working + Ceremonial Burial - Horses 1 tile N of Pasagarde & Iron is on hill 3 tiles S of Persepolis :D

IBT: Hammy asks us to move our troops, sure

Turn 8 – 2230 BC – Warrior3 (1/3) kills a BW and there’s at least 1 more – worker starts road – Warrior2 heading back to Pasagarde (not much to be found on this coast

IBT: Pasagarde worker->barracks – treasury low message

Turn 9 – 2190 BC - Worker N to road/mine horses – Warrior1 SE in to Aztec land – Warrior2 NW into Aztec land – Warrior3 fortify on hill

IBT: Monty asks us to leave sure – Worker completes road - treasury low message

Turn 10 – 2150 BC – Worker starts horse road – Warrior2 NW – Worker starts mine

I leave the next person with 1g in the bank and –1gpt per turn – That warrior fortified should be healed to 3/3 and be able to kill that last BW and get the 25g from the village to continue funding our research. Not much changed on the map, so I’ll skip the screen shot. Very interesting having Hammy as a neighbor. We might want to keep him around as a research pal (probably not).

Score 70 – tied with Aztecs and trailing Babylon (82)

Good work finding Hammy! If anyone can post a screenshot that would be good. It may take me a while to post one.

Roster Check:
R & L
grahamiam
denyd - Just played
Leibnitz - UP
Bugs - On Deck

Got it. Sorry for the late response. Server was down a few hours.

I agree to Spaceship/conquest. But seems to be very easy (we are on Regent level). Spaceship/100K could also be an option and seems to be hard.

I also like the dot map :)

Sounds like we're all on the same page. Conquest and Space are our official target victories. Since this is Regent, I think we will have to do most of the research ourselves.

T0 2150BC: Things are ok :) Warrior (W1) 3 tiles SW of Tenochtitlan. Warrior (W2) 1 tile E of T. Warrior (W3) on hill between Pers. and Pas. Worker (Wo1) 1 tile N of Pas. roads (2 t left). Worker (Wo2) 1 tile NW of Pers. (3 t left on mine).

IBT: Monty demands auto move of W2, ok. Is SSSW of Pas. now.

T1 2110BC: W3 attacks BW > take 25g, no damage. W2 moves SE, W1 moves S, sees Iron 1 tile NW of Tlatelolco.

IBT: Wo1 completes road, connecting horses to Pas. BW appears N-NW-NW of Pers.

T2 2070BC: W3 1 tile N (to defend Pers.). W01 moves N (not mining due to expected corruption), W2 moves S, W1 S.

IBT: Monty asks to leave, ok. BW moves SE. Wo completes mine.

T3 2030BC: Wo2 moves 3 tiles S, W3 3 tiles NE, Wo1 roads, W2 N, W1 S.

IBT: BW now 1 tile N of Pers. Pers now at pop 2.

T4 1990BC: W3 attacks BW, ok no damage, Wo2 roads, W2 N, W1 SW

T5 1950BC: Pers Settler>Settler. Settler moves SE-S-S, W3 NW to search for Barb camp, sees another Barb, W2 N,
W1 W on mountain.

IBT: Barb moves on forest tile.

T6 1910BC: W3 attacks Barb, promoted to vet :) 3 hp left. Wo2 moves on Iron hill, Settler S, Wo1 completes roadm moves N.
W2 Pas., W1 E.

IBT: Barb1 appears 1 tile N of W3. Barb 2 appears 1 tile W of Settler. **** !

T7: 1870BC: W2 3 tiles N, Susa founded > Barracks. See barb camp near Susa now. Wo1 roads, W1 E, see yellow borders.
W3 attacks Barb, 2hp left. Wo2 roads.

IBT: Barb attacked Susa as expected > 6g stolen.

T8 1830BC: W2 NW on hill near Barb camp. W3 N (where is the Barb camp?) W1 back W to try to contact Shaka.

T9 1790BC: W2 attacks BW > 2hp left and one more barb in camp. Wo2 moves SW (to be not attacked), W3 N,
see barb camp now. W1 W.

T10 1750BC: Wo1 roads, W2 fortify, Wo2 completes road > Iron connected. Wo2 NW-NW-N, W3 fortify, W1 S.
See Zulu City of Bapedi, contact Shaka. Has cap + 2 cities, horses (0 extra), 8g and Myst. Trade Alphabet vs. Myst and 3g.

Remark: If the next city is founded 3 tiles SW of Pers (as in the dot map) then Wo2 should road the furs. W-SW of Pers to
get the extra gold.

Stats: Aztecs: 86, Bab: 83, persia: 78, Zulu 64.


The save file:
SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_1750bc.SAV)

Screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Leibniz_sgotm1_1750bc.jpg

I've got it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Monty_season.jpg

Sorry Sir Bugsy for the trade at turn 10. I just recalled that one should not make deals in turn 10. Hope it was ok for you anyways.

Nice work Leibniz

We can probably take out the Aztecs with 2-3 Immortals and Babylon is not in that much better shape. I can see how a quick domination/conquest win would be in this game. Once you reach map making, nothing else to research, just build Immortals and kill the AI.

Susa & Pasagarde for barracks then Immortals - Persepolis for settlers to fill in the rest of our island. Once the island is ours, we'll need to switch to infrastructure if we hope to research to the modern age in 4 turn jumps. If this wasn't Vanilla, I'd consider keeping Hammy around for the possible bonus tech swap, but since we all get the same tech (Monotheism-Nationalism-Fission), there's no point.

Good job, Leibniz! It's interesting to view our start versus the opportunities that the AI had.

I have created a maintenance thread for this game >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1744816#post1744816).

It will be used for scores and announcements so it might be a good idea to bookmark it.

Pre-flight – 1750 BC – Science comes down 10% to balance budget and still get writing in 5.

Since Persepolis is only at pop 2, I change the settler to a barracks due in 6. I think it will be more productive with more pop.

This is a serious farmer’s gambit we have here. Three cities, all empty.

Diplo check – nada.

1. 1725 BC – get 50G from two barb camps.

The Aztecs have recaptured their city.

2. 1700 BC – A Bab worker blocks our way south.

3. 1675 BC – Build a road.

4. 1650 BC - Persepolis grows. The best we’re ever going to get out of the city is +2 food.

There is a serious choke point between Babylon and Zululand.

IBT – Writing comes in. Map Making at min, since max only gets us 10 extra turns.

5. 1625 BC - :sleep:

IBT – Persepolis: Barracks=>Immortal

6. 1600 BC – Monty has HBR – He wants both our arms and a leg for it so we’ll pass for now.

7. 1575 BC – Aztecs have a worker for sale, but I think it is the only one they have so we’ll pass for now

8. 1550 BC – Barbs are popping up again.

IBT – Defeat two attacking barbs and the palace gets a nice lawn.

9. 1525 BC – We can finally get through the Bab choke point. Lux goes to 10% for Persepolis which grew.

10. 1500 BC – Move our warrior at the choke south.

Score: 90

After Action Report: We can grow a settler in Persepolis next. We probably don’t want our pop there to get below three.

We are almost ready to start cranking out some Immortals. We can train them on the barbs and then we can open Monty Season. Probably want to get about three more cities before we spark our GA.

While mad-bax has relaxed the naming rules and 10 turns a player rule. Let’s keep it going since it makes a lot of sense.

Roster:

R&L – Up
Grahamian – On Deck
Denyd
Leibnitz
Bugs – Just played

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_-_Bugs,_1500_BC.SAV

Got it. I'll start tonight, and likely finish tomorrow night.

note to all:

mad-bax is asking that we post saves and scores on the SGOTM1 maintenance thread. that way, he can track all the teams scores. i will add our latest in a little while. i guess, in the future, we'll have to post the saves and score in both places.

If this is a real pain then say so. You would be surprised how difficult it is to find the save link when you are scan reading 10 threads.

Originally posted by mad-bax
If this is a real pain then say so. You would be surprised how difficult it is to find the save link when you are scan reading 10 threads.
i feel that anything that makes your job of tracking 10 games easier is worthwhile ;) i have a feeling that we can take the pain. however, this probably gives you a goal for SGoTM2 (ie, an automated score/year submittal system) :)

1500BC – 0
Zzzzz

IBT: BW approaches P’gadae

1475 – 1
Worker mines horse. Worker roads. N Vet Warrior -1 dispatches barb camp. Warrior climbs Zulu mountain.

IBT: Shaka asks for our departure, and we agree. BW dies at P’gadae.
Persepolis: Immortal > settler in 5, grow in 7.

1450 – 2
Immortal toward P’gadae for training. N Warrior heals. S warrior N.

IBT: Barb camp appears near Dyes. Zulu send out 2 warriors.

1425 – 3
N Warrior S. Worker moves. Immortal passes through Susa. S warrior N.

IBT: P’gadae garrison -1, kills another BW.

1400 – 4
N Vet warrior -2 kills BW. N Worker roads toward nest city site. Immortal to P’gadae. S worker to P’gadae woods. P’gadae warrior S. S warrior N – sees Bab spear/Bowman pair headed at Monte. Bowman in Ur.

IBT: Aztec spear/settler move to NW of game, kill BW. S warrior gets free trip NNNE.

1375 - 5
P’gadae warrior S. S worker roads woods. Immortal rests. S warrior SE, at corner tween Aztec archer & Bab spear/bow. N warrior heals.

IBT: archer attacks spear (-1) and dies. Bab Bowman E, Bab spear forts on incense. No formal war on F4. Aztec spear/settler moves to game.

1350 – 6
S warrior E. P’gadae warrior E. Immortal rests. N worker NW. N warrior heals.
Other 3 up HR, Aztecs down Masonry, Writing. Monte offers HR +3g for Writing. We’d have to give masonry + #g. Make trade, as other 2 have M & W.

IBT: Aztecs found Texcoco on game, kill BW. Bab bowman W toward Aztec city.
Persepolis: settler > immortal in 8, grow in 1. Susa: Rax > immortal in 8.

1325 – 7
settler NW,N,NW. N worker roads. N warrior S. Immortal rests in P’gadae. P’ warrior W. S warrior W. Monte jumps to 25g, needs masonry, but no deal.

IBT: Bab bowman -1 razes Aztec city under fog, Tlatlelco.

1300 – 8
S warrior W to iron hill. P’ warrior rests. S worker E. immortal rests. Settler N. N warrior rests.

IBT: Hammi demands 27g. I decline, he recedes. Aztec spear/settler appear N of iron hill. Bab bowman forts.

1275 – 9
S warrior forts on iron. P’ warrior rests. S worker roads. Immortal rests. N warrior rests – sees another BW on the way.
Arbela founded > warrior in 5, grow in 10.

IBT: Aztec spear/settler E. Bab bowman W.

1250 – 10
S warrior E. N warrior rests as BW approaches. N worker NW – road to Arbela complete. Change Arbela from warrior to immortal in 14. immortal rests. P’ warrior rests. I blew the trade by waiting – Monte down to 3g, has masonry… :sad:


We're doing well in raw score anyway...

I was using the S warrior to keep the Aztecs from getting both the iron and the coast. If they move SE, they'll be on the coast, but only get the iron after expansion. If they go SW, they get the iron, but miss the coast. Yours to play with. Keep using the N warrior to kill wandering BW, and hope for upgrade to elite.

We'll have 3 immortals in 8 more turns, plus another in 14. We should try to get another settler after Persepolis gets to size 5 so as to found where we can reach the fish (by vote?).

ok, i'll play and post tonight. anybody got a pic to post so we can discuss?

imho, that northern warrior (north of our empire, right?) fishing for barbs should be pulled back and upgraded to immortal or used for MP duty. Barb hunting should be left for immortals as we'd rather have these at elite than warriors.

Originally posted by grahamiam
ok, i'll play and post tonight. anybody got a pic to post so we can discuss?

imho, that northern warrior (north of our empire, right?) fishing for barbs should be pulled back and upgraded to immortal or used for MP duty. Barb hunting should be left for immortals as we'd rather have these at elite than warriors.

Sorry about the pic. I can do that when I get home ~ 6:30.

I used the warrior for barb fishing because he was there, and because there were barbs to kill. I shouldn't have moved the immortal S, but he could be back up to Arbela in 4-5 turns.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Sorry about the pic. I can do that when I get home ~ 6:30.

I used the warrior for barb fishing because he was there, and because there were barbs to kill. I shouldn't have moved the immortal S, but he could be back up to Arbela in 4-5 turns.
ok, sounds good. that'll be about 3hrs before i play so if anyone has recommendations, please make them then.

don't worry about the warrior in the north. the extra time it takes to get an immortal up there will just let the barbs multiply :)

grahamiam's got it. Denyd's on deck.

Sounds like Monty season is in full swing. I wonder if there will be any Aztec cities left for us to pillage :hammer:

Preflight check: Capitol is working a non-mine grass. These should have been mined to speed up the immortal and settler builds. With the extra mined grass, we can get 5spt @ size 3 (immortal in 6) and 6spt @ size 4 (settler in 5). I will focus on upgrading capitol area 1st to fix this. Reduce lux slider to 0% (+6gpt to +7gpt)
IBT: Aztec spear/settler pair move to coast; Pas barracks -> worker
T1: 1225BC: nada
IBT: Aztec make new city on coast;

T2: 1200BC: Warriors coming home for upgrade.

T3: 1175BC: Upgrade Reg warrior to Immortal; Barb warrior gets too close to Arabela so it's killed by vet warrior; Adjust lux slider for pop growth in capitol; worker mines near capitol

T4: 1150BC Reg immortal moves north from Pasargadea; Switch Arbela to barracks so it will pump out vet immortals
IBT: Aztec kick out warrior which sped up his trip to Pasargadea :) ;Persepolis Immortal -> settler; Susa Immortal -> Immortal

T5: 1125BC: Move Immortal out of Persepolis to Arbela and move vet warrior out of Arbela to Pers
IBT: Pas: worker -> temple;

T6: 1100BC: Upgrade reg warrior in Pas; upgrade vet warrior in Persepolis; working finishes 1st grass near Persepolis and starts 2nd; the worker from the south joins him
IBT: vet immortal defeats barb (2/4);

T7: 1075BC: Reduce lux slider with immortal in capitol; reg immortal reaches Arbela

T8: 1050BC: Reg immortal defeats barb but does not promote; growth in Persepolis has new citizen work the grass and I move to wooded furs to get settler in 2T vs 5T. Adjust lux slider for growth.

T9: 1025BC: vet immortal heals and is moving north

T10: 1000BC: Persepolis settler ->immortal; immortals move north for barbs; MM Arbela off grass onto mined grass; lower lux slider

Notes: vet and reg immortal moving north for barbs. Place vet immortal next to camp and fortify. Hopefully, barbs will spawn 2 at a time and allow the vet to attack and defend in 1 turn. Leave the regular behind the vet. He can take over once the vet becomes elite. Do not capture the camp until we have elites. settler left in Persepolis, ready for orders.

We should be able to get 1 immortal and 1 settler every 10 or 11 turns now. Next player must make sure the MM Persepolis and Arbela after each growth for optimum food and shield buildup. Remove Arbela from mined grass when Pers gets to size 4. Use the 2 workers near Arbela to fully develope the land around that city. Please do not leave grassland unmined again. Also, after all tiles around Arbela are developed, go back and mine 1 more grass near Persepolis so Arbela can have 5 good land tiles. The govenor seems to be favoring the grass instead of forrest during growth so the mined/roaded grass will be useful.

Score: 121; Units: 1 settler, 3 workers, 6 immortals (allowed 6 more units (10 with new city) before paying. Our known neighbors are researching very slowly (no techs available).

We ought to research lit next so we can get some cheap Libraries.

1000BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_1000_bc.sav)

a very slow QSC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1-bugs1000bc.JPG

Originally posted by grahamiam
Preflight check: Capitol is working a non-mine grass. These should have been mined to speed up the immortal and settler builds. With the extra mined grass, we can get 5spt @ size 3 (immortal in 6) and 6spt @ size 4 (settler in 5). I will focus on upgrading capitol area 1st to fix this.

Please do not leave grassland unmined again.

Sorry about the map. In getting home with the kids, and dropping the taxes at the PO, I forgot. :sad:

Regarding the mines, I barely had enough time to get the road to Arbela - the turn after it was built. I had no time to do mines, and no wasted turns. Will try to do better in the future.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Sorry about the map. In getting home with the kids, and dropping the taxes at the PO, I forgot. :sad:

Regarding the mines, I barely had enough time to get the road to Arbela - the turn after it was built. I had no time to do mines, and no wasted turns. Will try to do better in the future.
R&L, don't worry about the map. taxes and kids are much more important. and don't take my log as a direct criticism, getting the road to that town was important. it's a comment in regards to how the whole team is playing (including me :) ). for instance, there are some extra roads and an extra plain mine around that I'm sure weren't done during your turns. we all need to be a little smarter with how we use the sparse land and i'd like to prevent a repeat at Arbela.

hopefully, i'm not sounding too much like a weenie. this is supposed to be fun :)

with arbela developed and another city on the way, we should be ready to take the continent very soon. just hope we get at least 1 elite from the barbs.

edit: just noticed i'm over 300 posts! time to get a new icon :)

Denyd is up!

We have a variety of experience levels on the team, and several different playing styles as well. It is good to point out areas where improvements should be make. No one should take these things personally. It is all part of the learning experience.

My learning curve just jumped a few notches over in RBC13H, as I made a huge error. Just remember we are human and we should just try and learn from our mistakes.

OK - I got it - I'll play tonight (PDT) - I'll look over the thread and map at lunch and post my plans to the turns for the team to review.

G-man@ nice work with those turns - good points on elite farming - note that we'll need to kill off the barb camp right before the age change to avoid a barb explosion

Originally posted by denyd
OK - I got it - I'll play tonight (PDT) - I'll look over the thread and map at lunch and post my plans to the turns for the team to review.

G-man@ nice work with those turns - good points on elite farming - note that we'll need to kill off the barb camp right before the age change to avoid a barb explosion
well, to me, a barb "explosion" is rather nice as long as you prepare for it. just get about 5 or 6 units up there, ready for it and we'll have a lot of nice elite farming going on :) not sure if we'll have the units to do this in this game but it's something to consider.

I accidently did this in a current game, just after I polished off an existing foe and was getting ready for the next. Hopefully, it'll help me get the leader that I desperately need.

I suggest to build the next city 3 tiles SW of Persepolis. This will grab the fish. I would start a prebuild for a habour then.

Another thing to consider is a habour in Susa, so that Susa can produce its immortals/galleys with more pop which gives us a bit more gold. It also seems that there are coastal tiles in the east of our border at Susa which would make the harbour very useful.

Two good points Leibniz. I think that tile was on somebody's dot map, but yes, we want to settle there. I think a harbor pre-build is a good idea.

Originally posted by Leibniz
I suggest to build the next city 3 tiles SW of Persepolis. This will grab the fish. I would start a prebuild for a habour then.


i like this spot too. the extra gold will help our research. prebuilding a harbor sounds good too. plenty of trees around to help out.

Originally posted by Leibniz
Another thing to consider is a habour in Susa, so that Susa can produce its immortals/galleys with more pop which gives us a bit more gold. It also seems that there are coastal tiles in the east of our border at Susa which would make the harbour very useful.
imho, Susa should start building a harbor after Arbela has finished it's barracks and is building immortals. this may time out well as the BG should be mined next turn so turns to finish barracks will drop to 6 or 5. we need to start the fight soon so we shouldn't forgo too many units but building the harbor is an excellent idea as we need the gold and pop for research. it's obvious that the AI will be absolutely no help in this matter.

Originally posted by grahamiam
we need to start the fight soon so we shouldn't forgo too many units but building the harbor is an excellent idea as we need the gold and pop for research. it's obvious that the AI will be absolutely no help in this matter.

I agree completely G-man. We need to start up research as soon as possible. A space ship might take till 3000 AD if we wait on the AI.

After a quick once over on the map (no game access) , my objectives for tonight:

1. Get 6 Immortals (vet/elite) in place for the Aztec campaign
2. Settle a city on the coast between the 2 furs
3. Have a settler in production
4. Improve the ground around Arbela & Pasagarde
5. Stay current on techs
6. Stay out of any wars

If I happen to get Map Making during my set, is Literature our next target?

Anything else?

I would prefer Literature. As mentioned The AI doesnt help us much with research, and of course the Libraries are cheap and also give us a bit culture. The AI often goes along the Monarchy pass. At least he researched Polytheism (or Phil, CoL) before Lit. in most of my games, so we can hope to trade it later.

Originally posted by denyd
2. Settle a city on the coast between the 2 furs

make sure the city gets the fish. i think your proposing 4 tile SW of the capitol. we've agreed that 3 SW is best so we get the fish.
good luck :)

I would say yes to lit. We'll need the libraries to self-research.

Yes - we want the fish.

Grahamiam@ thanks for the catch, I was going 4 SW, I will settle on the furs 3 SW.

Well, we have our work cut out for us. Akots' team has already won with a conquest victory.

We may want to rethink our Conquest/Space idea. If we wanted we could play a 5CC, since we haven't settled our fifth city yet.

At a minimum we HAVE to beat Samildanch's team. The guy is a snot. :p

well, going for space will require a lot of milking so the 7000+ score may not be out of range yet. We just need to expand to the domination limit ASAP, then build up. However, what's really killing us is the lack of a bonus for a multi-win (seems 5CC gets a better bonus).

I don't mind staying the course, at least we're doing something different than everyone else. of course, this means our game will be much longer than anyone elses...

I wasn't able to get to it last night (sick 2 year old & the wife had survivor/apprentice duty :D )

We can still get a multi-type win with space & conquest. We'll just have to found a 1 tile island city and gift it to the last survivor. Box in the survivor with ships and play the research & grow game. Those turns actually go quite fast compared to at-war turns during the same era.

I agree with Grahamiam that getting to the domination limit early will be important. As soon as we've got our 6 vet Immortals ready to go, Monty's got to go. Then keep rolling to Hammy & Shaka.

Then that's the plan. We will need to keep a close eye on Mapstat to keep from going over the limit.

Sorry, I just finished my other SG and won't be able to play this tonight (it's too late). I'll play & post Saturday late afternoon PDT.

I belive the last player played, but posted on the wrong thread. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1766957#post1766957 , second post from the top.

Thankyou Soren. :thumbsup:

RowAndLive is up I believe...

FIRST THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_750bc.sav)

Next the Turn Log

Turn Log 2

Turn 0 – 1000 BC – Reset personal preferences – Move settler to new city site – MM a little to speed productions (slowing growth) – No trade opportunities

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 1 – 975 BC – Settler founds Antioch starts Immortal – Move Workers to road North – Move Northern Immortals to threaten barbarian camp – Send Southern Regular Immortal north for training on barbarians – No trades available – BTW No one has iron hooked up but us and only the Zulu have horses connected

IBT: Babylon starts Colossus (OH, for me, you shouldn’t have)

Turn 2 – 950 BC – Workers build road segment – Regular Immortal fortifies in woods – Veteran Immortal sent south – Buy Aztec worker for 30g (it’s past 1000BC so this is ok) – New worker sent to connect furs

IBT: Susa Immortals->Worker

Turn 3 – 925 BC – New Immortal sent south – slave starts road – workers move to next segment – Immortals moving on current orders

IBT: Immortal (4/4) defends against Barb Warrior and promotes

Turn 4 – 900 BC – Workers build road segment – Immortals travel on orders – Switch Persepolis to settler (claim the dyes) – Vet Immortal from north MP in Pasagarde – Zulus have Mathematics, but I don’t want to pay monopoly prices

IBT: Forest chop complete for Pasagarde – Arbela barracks->Immortal

Turn 5 – 875 BC – Southern worker starts mine – Northern worker move and mine for Arbela – Immortals still moving on orders – no changes in the trade arena

IBT: Immortal (4/4) defends against Barb Warrior – Persepolis Settler->Immortal – Susa Worker->Immortal

Turn 6 – 850 BC – New worker moves to mine iron – Settler heading north – no trade changes

IBT: Workers complete mine

Turn 7 – 825 BC – Workers move to connect dyes – Immortal & Settler nearly to spot – no trade changes

IBT: Southern worker completes mine

Turn 8 – 800 BC – Southern worker moves to hill – 4th Vet Immortal arrives in Pasagarde – Settler arrives on spot – regular Immortal reaches woods

IBT: Slave finishes connecting fur

Turn 9 – 775 BC – Settler founds Tarsus – Vet Immortal MP in Tarsus – Workers start road to dyes – Regular Immortal fortify in woods – Slave moves to road GL – Southern worker begins hill road – Trade 95g to Zulu for Mathematics – Trade Mathematics + 88g + 4gpt + WM to Babylon for Map Making – Trade Map Making to Zulu for 123g – Trade Map Making to Aztecs for 33g + WM – Trade TM with Zulu – research Philosophy at max (due in 8)

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 10 – 750 BC – Slave starts road – Vet Immortal #5 reaches Pasagarde

The 2 workers on the dyes will have them connected next turn and that should end happiness problems for quite a while – I picked Philosophy as a cheap tech with Republic in mind – We’ve got 6 Veteran Immortals and a regular waiting for barbarians to promote him, we’ll have 3 more in less than 5 turns – Note: I gave Babylon a gold per turn deal, so no war with him for the next 20 turns. We should probably let him finish Colossus before attacking him anyway.

First place Persia score 133 at 750 BC - turn 90

A then a visual of our emire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_bugs_750bc.jpg

Originally posted by mad-bax
Thankyou Soren. :thumbsup:

RowAndLive is up I believe...



No, I am up :)

Got it.

It is ok for you to start the war with the Aztecs now?

Originally posted by Leibniz
It is ok for you to start the war with the Aztecs now?
imho, we should be ready to rock and roll with 7-9 immortals. we have 18 or 19 turns till the deal with babylon is up so you may want to start the rumble in the early-middle of your turns so we'll still be in a GA when we initially take on Bab's. the key is to roll over our whole continent ASAP. horses will help as well. also, we probably want to move the palace to the middle of the Aztec/Bab lands so we can get a productive ring going.

if we don't break the deal with Bab's, we could still possibly get the RBC bonus as well as the duel finish bonus.

also, republic is the early gov't for this game. have fun wackin' monty :)

T0 - 750BC: F7: Babs are building Colossus. Traded with Monty: WM + 21g vs. WM and 2 workers. Move workers to Pas. We need them to build roads for our reinforcements and to connect the cities we will capture. Move vet immortal in Tarsus to Pas.

T1 - 730BC: Tarsus workers move and mine.

T2 - 710BC: Susa worker moves SW. Pas. worker moves S.

T3 - 690BC: Pers. immortal > settler. Immortal to Pas. Science to 90.

T4 - 670BC: Arbela immortal > Immortal. Workers road hill 2 tiles S of Pas. (war preparations).

IBT: See Aztec archer 1 tile SW of Texococo.

T5 - 650BC: Workers complete road to Aztec territory. Move a stack of 7 immortals from Pasargadae to the tile W of Texococo.

IBT: Monty demands to leave, we declare war. Archer attacks vet immortal and dies, immortal has 3hp left. We enter GA.

T6 - 630BC: Workers complete road connecting Texococo to our road network. Vet immortal attacks reg spear in Tex and wins (2hp left). Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins (2hp left). We have captured Texcoco. Tex > barracks. Science to 20. Next target is Aztec cap. Fortify the immortals to let the injured heal.

IBT: Barb horse attacks reg immortal near Tarsus and dies. Researched Phil. Now CoL at 100 in 7t.

T7 - 610BC: Susa Immortal > Immortal.

IBT: Barb horse attacks reg immortal near Tarsus and dies (2hp left).

T8 - 590BC: Pers. settler > immortal. Stack of 6 immortals moves on hill near Tenochtitlan.

IBT: See Aztec GREAT LEADER move to Tenochtitlan. I hope he has no move points left. Do not want to fight against an army. Barb horse attacks reg immortal once more and dies.

T9 - 570BC: No army visible. Vet immortal attacks vet spear and wins with 2 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with 2 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with 2 hp left. Tenochtitlan captured, we see the Great Leader dying. Tenochtitlan has barracks, produces granary now. New Aztec cap is Teotihuacan. See Zulu vet horse with 3 hp 2 tiles S of Tenochtitlan. Move stack of 3 immortals one tile N of Tlatelolco.

IBT: Monty wants to speak with us, but we do not want.

T10 - 550BC: Antioch Immortal> Barracks. Vet immortal attacks reg spear in Tlat. and wins with 3 hp left. Vet immortal attacks reg spear and wins with no damage, Tlat, auto-razed.


Remark: Settler should found next city on the spot ( as in the dot map). There are workers on the hill NE of T, that will have connected T to the road network in 2 turns. We should wait 2 turns to let the immortals in T heal. Next target would be Teotihuacan then. Score: 149 (Leader).

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1_bugs_550bc.sav)

Screenshot
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Leibniz_sgotm_bugs1_550bc.jpg

nice :hammer: Leibniz!

imho, texcoco should be razed and a new city placed between the game (1 tile SW iirc).

Originally posted by grahamiam
we could still possibly get the RBC bonus as well as the duel finish bonus.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are these bonuses of which you speak, pray tell?

Originally posted by RowAndLive
Pardon my ignorance, but what are these bonuses of which you speak, pray tell?
Mad Bax's SGoTM scoring bonuses.

Nice start on the Aztecs Leibniz :thumbsup:

We might want wait until Babylon completes Colossus before declaring on Hammy. The production boost would be quite nice to get as a freebie.

We should hurry a couple of settlers south to claim that open space (and the iron). Also building a city S of goldhill would get us incense (that's 3 luxuries).

After code of laws, it's probably time for the 40-turn Republic gambit. That would give us plenty of time to finish off the Aztecs, Babylon & the Zulu, before revlotiing. Then Literature and libraries everywhere as we need to do a lot of self research in this game, good thing the science improvements are cheaper.

How about building a galley to make the rounds of our island to give us a better understanding of our world?

I'm next, and I got it.

I think that we need to really start self-research, if we're going to finish this game anytime before summer. The regent level AI isn't going to do a lot of research.

It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.

We can't jump the palace without a 10% point decrease - mad-bax rules. probably want a FP on the south end of our continent - Zululand?

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.

I wondered about that too, but was hoping that we'd not have a problem since we didn't actually have a ROP.

I'm on deck, but patiently, as I'm up on BUGS1.

Originally posted by denyd
We might want wait until Babylon completes Colossus before declaring on Hammy. The production boost would be quite nice to get as a freebie.
Wouldn't it be better for our score to get that land more quickly? If we want, we can build the Colossus in Arbela now that we have a GA shield bonus going for us. I have a feeling that a regent AI will take forever to build a wonder and I don't feel like waiting :) I say we press on :ar15:

edit: "press on" after that gpt deal with bab's expires :)

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
We can't jump the palace without a 10% point decrease - mad-bax rules. probably want a FP on the south end of our continent - Zululand?
ok, sorry. gotta go read those rules again. I don't think we can take a 10% decrease. I was hoping a palace jump via a GL would be ok but if it isn't, then lets not do it.

Mad-bax added the no palace jump rule during the Babylon Diety Settlers game. In this game, i don't think it will matter since the map doesn't allow you to have a "core." I think having the capitol on one end of the continent and the FP on the other will work for us.

You will not *lose* anything by jumping the palace after 10BC, you just won't qualify for the 7% RBCiv bonus. This is primarily intended to stop people jumping the palace somewhere remote for most of the game and then jumping it back into their core a few turns from the end. It's just easier to check the palace build date, and is less "woolly" than the GOTM rule.

BTW: The awards system has nearly been nailed down. It may be of interest to your team. ;)

Originally posted by denyd
After code of laws, it's probably time for the 40-turn Republic gambit. That would give us plenty of time to finish off the Aztecs, Babylon & the Zulu, before revlotiing. Then Literature and libraries everywhere as we need to do a lot of self research in this game, good thing the science improvements are cheaper.

How about building a galley to make the rounds of our island to give us a better understanding of our world?

i agree with the galleys but I don't see much point in taking 40T for republic. we're probably not going to be able to buy techs from any civ's we find since they will most likely be backwards compared to us. imho, we ought to research republic as fast as possible with an even or positive influx of gold.

the 40T gambit will give us lots of gold but we're not trying for a massive unit upgrade at this point so I'm probably missing your intention. the reason i prefer getting republic asap is because it will get us out of despot. if we have the units, then we shouldn't hold back revolting while taking out bab's and zulu. the only thing that should hold us back from revolting is if we get it while in a GA, which is pretty unlikely at this point.

My reasoning for the 40T gambit, is as of now we've only got 68g in the treasury and are running a -11gpt with 4 turns to go til Code of Laws. There is no way to get Republic before the GA is over so there's no real hurry to get there. Also Republic is a very valuable trade tech and the more techs that are available for trade the less we'll have to research. If Hammy is building Colossus in his capital, we could add an embassy there and find out how long before he finishes it. If it's too long, then he should be attacked as soon as all deals are done and the Aztecs are gone, otherwise it would be nice to have that built for us.

Maybe instead of 40T, maybe a break-even research rate, but that's likely to be the same as maximum. At this point in the game, I think that both minimum & maximum are likely to be 40 turns.

I'm thinking we'll need most of the wonders to increase our score to the maximum (increase happiness, reduce costs, increase science, increase population...). We'll need to be careful not to hit the 20K win criteria, but if we spread the wonders around that shouldn't be a problem.

ok, but if we go 40T @ min research, that means we won't get republic till 290AD. I think if we maximize research while still staying even or above gpt, then we can bring that time down, even if it starts at 40T. once a 40T min research gambit starts, it cannot be corrected as you grow since so little gold has been put against the tech in the beginning. if we research as much as possible, hopefully the time comes down as we aquire more cities and as our pop grows.

how much gold is required for republic? if that number proves too high and there's no way we can make that much in 40T, then min research is the way to go.

however, if we can get republic and then lit before 40T, it will be well worth it to maximize the research. build libraries and put the AI in the dust.

regarding wonders: if we take over the continent, eliminating 3 of 4 rivals, then all wonders will be ours :) there's just no way a regent AI will be able to keep up in regards to tech research and building. this is gonna be a real builder's gambit.

According to the F10 America & Iroquois are out there somewhere - since neither is scientific, I'm doubting they'll be much help once we do find them.

Since we will probably be researching our way through the next 3 ages without any AI help, I agree getting to Republic ASAP is a priority. We should load that galley with a pair of settlers in case they find empty space. We'll probably need to fill this world to the domination limit to get the maximum score. We will probably need to discuss moving the palace (foregoing the bonus) after we get a better picture of the world.

Since this game ended quite quickly, the other AI must be within reach of galleys. We'll probably find them with our first or second exploring galley. If we manage to destroy the Zulu, Aztecs & Babylon before meeting them, we'll have a clean slate for future dealings.

You are also quite right about this ending up as a builders game. Once this island is ours, we'll probably need to push the growth and infrastructure pedal to the metal.

EDIT: As for wonders, Smith's, Sun Tzu and TOE are must haves. We'll also need the Internet & United Nations when the time comes.

Pre-flight – 550 BC – Our people are happy. We have lots of luxs. We’re at war with Azteca. CoL due in 4 with -11 gpt. We’ll keep that because it makes a lot of sense.

We really need some more settlers and a galley or two. Change Arbela to a galley.

We’ll build a settler out of Persepolis next. We really need a lot more settlers though. I may allow the Aztec cities to grow before I attack.

Babylon has a bunch of cash and can actually pay full price for Philosophy, which is 135G & WM. We’ll execute that deal. We can continue deficit research for a while.

Tarsus is building an immortal without a barracks. With an army of 13 immortals, I think we can afford a barracks first. Change it to a Rax due in 8. I’d prefer to build a library to help research costs but we don’t have Literature yet.

IBT – Kill a barb horse.

1. 530 BC – Found Gordium. Start Barracks.
The Aztec capitol has grown, so we move out for the assault.

Science comes down 10% saving 3 gpt.

IBT – The Zulus are heading that way also.
Persepolis: Immortal=>Settler

2. 510 BC – Maneuvering. We might be attacked by an Aztec archer.

IBT – the archer goes towards a weaker Zulu warrior.

3. 490 BC – Kill the archer, promoting our dude. Start an irrigation project to get water to the north. The Zulu can attack with two units next turn. Hopefully the city will stand long enough for us to take it. :D

Science down another 10%.

IBT – The Aztec capitol stands, although they lost a spear.
CoL comes in. Republic next. I go for max science. Which is -11 gpt, due in 17 turns.

4. 470 BC – Monty must have whipped a defender, cause now the city is back to pop 1. Since the Zulu have three attackers next turn, I’m going to use this for leader fishing.

@ Teotihuacan – Our elite kills the ¾ spear and the city is autorazed. :hmm:

Since I would like to get a city out of this, I will blockade the choke point north until the city grows culturally.

Neither Hammy nor Shaka have enough money to buy anything from us, so I’ll wait.

We have a 4 gpt deal left with Hammy for 5 more turns. I will set up for an attack on Babylon on turn number 6.

IBT – Kill another barb Horse
Arbela: Galley=> Galley
Susa: Imm=> Imm

5. 450 BC – Maneuvering. Set sail in our new galley.

IBT – Zulus start heading home.
Kill a barb warrior and sink a barb galley.
Persepolis: Settler=>Immortal

6. 430 BC - :sleep:

Decide I’ve had it with barbs, and kill the barb camp.

IBT – Hammy wants to swap TMs. I don’t think so.
Then Hammy sends his troops towards ours. :hmm: Does he not want the money we owe him?
Babylon completes the Colossus. What a nice guy. :)

7. 410 BC – Continue the great irrigation project. Maneuver some more.

A barb camp has popped up SE of Tenoch.


The land off our NW coast doesn’t look promising for settling.

Hammy must have researched CoL last turn because he and Shaka have it and Shaka is broke. Hammy has 100G.

IBT – Babs are acting funny. Is he going for the barbs?
Antioch, Tarsus: Rax=> Imm
Hammy establishes an embassy with us.

8. 390 BC – There is at least one a good city site on the NW island

9. 370 BC – Disperse the barb camp. Collect 25G. Promote to elite. Let’s see if the Bowmen keep coming.

The deal with Babylon has expired. We are in a position to knock strike next turn.

IBT – Babs head south.
Arbela: Galley=> galley
Susa: Imm=> Imm
Washington builds the Pyramids.

10. 350 BC - Declare war on Babylon. Kill the two bowmen that were out and about, promoting one of our elites. Move to take Ur next turn.


After Action Report: - The workers have been irrigating and then mining behind.

Wait until the Aztec capitol expands its culture and then attack. That way we’ll get a city out of it.

There is a settler SE of Tenoch. Up to the next player to decide where to send him.

We probably have enough immortals in order to take this continent. We probably want to start building settlers and start cranking up a research machine.

Score: 174
Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_-_Bugs,_350_BC.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_Bugs_350_BC.jpg

lookin' good bugs :) very nice set. irrigation sure will be nice. our people are very thirsty. thanks for going after republic so hard :)

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy


It sounded like we were in Aztec territory when we declared war. That will probably be construed as a ROP violation by the AI and we probably won't be able to get any ROP deals in the future.



oops, i didnt know that :confused:

The situation was as follows: I moved the stack of immortals in Aztec territory. Then we had the IBT, where Monty demanded to leave or to declare war. I declared war in the IBT. Is that really a ROP violation? We had no ROP with Monty.

Edit: Seems that it is conform with the mad-bax rules of sgotm.

Nice turns Bugs. Too bad about the Aztec capital. I've had that happen a couple of times to me lately.

You're right on the money with those settlers and galleys. And right about having enough Immortals to take the rest of our island.

Rather than building a city that probably won't grow much in the desert, let's move that settler to south of the cow on the old Aztec city site. If Hammy or Shaka feel like settling in the desert, let them. We can afford to be picky where we place our cites from now on. There probably is much fight left in either of our neighbors (not that it matters), so on the with expansion. We might decide to keep Shaka around for GL farming. Leave his last city and just keep killing whatever leaves the city with elite Immortals.

Should we bother building temples in this game?

Edit: Just noticed Leibniz post. We might as well plan on a mid-game palace shift to take advantage of the FP Corruption bug now (no more RBCiv bonus). Don't sweat it Leibniz, I was going to campaign for this anyway.

We will need now decide if we want to hurry and remove Hammy & Shaka before they can spread the word of our bad deeds. I'd still like to keep a Shaka leader farm going. The more GL's we can get the more wonders we can rush.

Originally posted by Leibniz
oops, i didnt know that :confused:

The situation was as follows: I moved the stack of immortals in Aztec territory. Then we had the IBT, where Monty demanded to leave or to declare war. I declared war in the IBT. Is that really a ROP violation? We had no ROP with Monty.
i believe the AI regards it as an RoP violation if your in thier territory and you declare war. it kills your reputation. hopefully, we'll kill off Bab's and Zulu before the other's find out :)

Originally posted by denyd
Should we bother building temples in this game?
last priority but, yes, i think it's worthwhile as long as we need it for happiness. Sistine's + cathdrals will really make everyone happy, allowing us to put 100% into research and 0% into lux. maybe sell the temples after the cathedrals are built to lower the cost per turn.

yes, nice turns Bugs, and very nice to hear that we will own the Colossus soon :D

I don't know if declaring war while in Aztec territory is a violation of RBCiv rules. We need a ruling from Mad-bax on that one. We didn't have an ROP in effect at the time.

ROP rape is fine. You pay by losing your rep. :)

Originally posted by denyd
We will need now decide if we want to hurry and remove Hammy & Shaka before they can spread the word of our bad deeds. I'd still like to keep a Shaka leader farm going. The more GL's we can get the more wonders we can rush.
we could always kill off the zulu and then gift a city to our offshore "friends" for leader fishing.

A question on the Aztec problem: From my experience, capitol cities don't autoraze, and we should be able to take it without waiting for growth. Perhaps this autoraze is a vanilla feature that we don't see in PTW?

Regarding rules: I don't know about a bonus for anything, and would have to look, but I believe that the FP exploit is still prohibited for this scenario, even if we're not playing RBC. Of course, now I see MB's note that we're still OK for RBC, so I guess the point is moot, but I'm against using the FP exploit.

I'm intending to finish BUGS1 tonight, and so won't get to this one until tomorrow. Then again, maybe it would be quicker to do this one first, and start BUGS1 tonight, finishing it tomorrow.

Originally posted by RowAndLive
A question on the Aztec problem: From my experience, capitol cities don't autoraze, and we should be able to take it without waiting for growth. Perhaps this autoraze is a vanilla feature that we don't see in PTW?
Palace will autoraze if there's not enough culture (min. 10?) or population (min. 2). Having the palace there gives it 1cpt, so it should expand its borders during your turns. Patience is key now as we need the city due to our anemic settler production. imho, don't worry about the babylon cities UR and Ninev... as we need to capture colossus ASAP and those cities won't be building culture but will be pop rushing defenders.

edit: I also agree with RowAndLive that we should not take advantage of the FP palace corruption bug. Let's place the FP in the south as Bugsy suggested (maybe around the current location of UR?) so we can get a nice base of productive cities.

The first Aztec city was the capitol and it autorazed because the culture was too low.

Grahamiam - Excellent Idea! I didn't think of skipping Ur and Niv. We take Babylon - the capitol jumps to Ur. Wait for Ur to grow - take Ur - wait for Niv to grow - take Niv. If the city is pop 2 it won't autoraze.


Roster check

Row & Live - Up
Grahamiam - On deck
Denyd
Leibniz
Bugs

Originally posted by denyd
EDIT: As for wonders, Smith's, Sun Tzu and TOE are must haves. We'll also need the Internet & United Nations when the time comes.
yes, these are very nice indeed, but internet is PTW only, right?. i'll add Copernicus and Newtons (in the same city to maximize research, preferable the FP so we can do palace prebuilds) as well as Sistine's and JS Bach for happiness. well, heck, why don't we just get them all :)

is the 1st leader reserved for the FP?

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Grahamiam - Excellent Idea! I didn't think of skipping Ur and Niv. We take Babylon - the capitol jumps to Ur. Wait for Ur to grow - take Ur - wait for Niv to grow - take Niv. If the city is pop 2 it won't autoraze.
sorry, but that wasn't my idea. i see now that i didn't write it well. i meant to say don't worry about razing them, it's ok. like i wrote, they will pop rush defenders, never building culture. however, waiting is not a bad idea, as long as it doesn't take too long.

The problem with waiting for Pop 2, is the AI is pop-rushing, so as soon as they get to Pop 2 they rush a spearmen and are back a pop 1.

If we've got the RBC bonus still available, then let's keep the FP close by. If for some reason we lose that bonus, then we can consider a palace jump to a remote location. Let's keep our options open.

R&L@ I just played the SGOTM & Bugs1 combo last weekend and SGOTM is much quicker (if you post in the right thread that is :blush: )

BTW: Do we have a settler to add to that galley. It would be nice to start populating any nearby empty islands.

Two thoughts on our game in general:

1 - In case it wasn't noticed, MB has instituted a guillotine rule that goes effective June 8. Anyone not finished by then will be recorded as a conquest loss. I don't expect this to be a problem. It's on page 4 of the maintenance thread, just upstream of Bugs' posting.

2 - Looking at the map set up, and what we've done so far, we really should have gone for the AW bonus too, because even though we're playing a very competitive game, we're getting killed on the score multiplier. I wonder if MB would let us add it in, since we've mostly done it anyway...

I'm now thinking that I'll play this one first tonight, and then do BUGS1 after.

@RowAndLive -> I can't get to this till tomorrow so posting anytime tonight would be great. Also, Gozpel seems to be AWOL at the moment so not rushing thru Bugs1 tonight may work out best. There's a lot of MM'ing to do in that game :)

re: scoring bonuses: i don't mind getting the lower bonuses and such. I think madbax did his best with trying to sort thru the multipliers. Obviously, multiwin on this map isn't too hard but, as our discussions have shown, does require a lot of pre-planning. AW actually seems the easiest seeing that our opponents were weak and had lousy AA unique units. However, I think going for dual win helps all of us (well, at least me) with our game, making us think of things we normally don't. For instance, i've been on a domination rage in GoTM lately (mostly due to time constraints, but also due to my love of horseman and knights). This SG is making me think differently and I enjoy that because it gives me new problems to solve (it's in my engineer's blood to want to solve new problems :) ).

Due to time constraints, maybe, when the waring stops and we're into bob-the-builder mode, we can ask mad-bax to increase our turn count from 10 per turn to 15 or 20 if that speeds up the game.

sorry for the "windy" post.

If you want to increase the turncount per set then that is fine.

Usually the thing that slows down the late game is warring. We should have most of that taken care of early. June 8th shouldn't hard to do. We just have to keep on it.

As a general rule, why don't we do this: if anyone feels compelled to play a few extra turns, go ahead. Especially if you are on a campaign. Let's say you are all set up to sack Zimbabwe but you run out of turns. Take the extra turn or two and see the job through. This should help get the game further along.

The key to getting this done will be our science pace. We need libraries and universities and lots of cities. And we need them last turn. :D

Bugsy - I agree with your last post.

I'm thinking we've got enough Immortals to finish up this island and should be concentrating on expansion & science.

It would be nice to get the Pyramids somewhere on this island for growth purposes and the Hanging Gardens for happiness. I doubt The Great Wall/Library/Lighthouse or Oracle will provide any long term help for us in this game. If we get a Great Leader, it's between Forbidden Palace and Pyramids as my first choice, with Pyramids getting my vote (we can always build the FP brick by brick).

Once Republic is in, I propose we revolt immediatly and research Literature then set a course for Currency. Marketplaces and Libraries will drive the early research.

I'm not sure our reputation is that big a deal in this game, although being able to get GPT from the other AI in the later stages might be useful.

Is there any need to research Monarchy (the other optional AA tech)? The Hanging Gardens are nice, but is it worth spending the time researching it?

Denyd - You're right. We can skip Monarchy.

We may want to start building the Pyramids somewhere near the capitol.

I think a leader should be saved for a FP. I'd place it down in Zululand somewhere.

Your research path is exactly right.

i agree with denyd's research path :thumbsup:

imho, if the key is science, then the FP is the best bet for the leader at this stage of the game. an early 2nd core can really turn a game on it's ear. I think around or 1 S of UR's ruins looks the best. it'll drive down corruption near to the colossus as well as all the cities we're going to plop down in the middle (fat part) of the island. pyramids is nice too and will increase pop quickly to help research but, imho, an early 2nd core always wins. with the location of our palace, it's going to be hard to build the FP by hand down there.

researching monarchy will require some gold that i'd rather spend on 1st tier MA tech's.

I think we'll need to get a lot more leaders. Probably need to set up a leader fishing city on the other continents (islands?). We'll want to create a major science city and get all the science related wonders there...Cop's, Newton's.

I can agree that a Great Leader should be rushing the FP. I think it makes a big difference, since you need around (200 ?) turns to build the FP in a very corrupt city. Of course the Pyramids are nice but the FP is essential in our situation.

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think we'll need to get a lot more leaders. Probably need to set up a leader fishing city on the other continents (islands?). We'll want to create a major science city and get all the science related wonders there...Cop's, Newton's.
i like denyd's idea of having 1 city in the south that we can fish with. I don't think it should be zulu, though. kill everyone off on our continent so we don't get a rep hit, then gift a city to another AI and fish every once in a while. this may sound better than it executes but it's something to try. Research wonders should be in low corruption cities so we get the most out of them. having them overseas will hurt more than help.

Actually I think we should try and get a "Super Science City" - I think Sirian gets credit for that term.

You build a library and university and then get Cop's, Newton's and eventually SETI and a research lab. Ideally it should be in a very low corruption city like FP city. A SSC can really crank out the beakers. Something we're going