Welcome to your SGOTM1 game thread.


First some procedural stuff.
Although the rules for SGOTM have not been set in stone yet, we will be playing to the rules listed >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1733966#post1733966)
Please take the time to read them.

Here is a reminder of your start position
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/civ3gotm1b.jpg

Here are the two saves.

SGOTM1-CivIII1.29f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1NAME-4000BC.SAV)

SGOTM1-PTW1.27f (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1PTWNAME-4000BC.SAV)

IMPORTANT REMINDER
The file naming format that you use to pass the game on must be rigidly adhered to in order to prevent games getting mixed up.

Name your save files like this

SGOTM1TEAMNAME-DATE.SAV

For example - SGOTM1STAFF-3000BC.SAV

Later on it may be possible to submit the saved games through the GOTM server for scoring purposes. Alanh will have special requirements for doing this which will be made clear at that time.

Roster

akots
Kunningas
scoutsout
I. Larkin
Conehead

The order shown above is not the order you must play. When you have decided on your order of play I will amend the Roster above.

The first player plays to the end of the 3000BC turn (turn 20)
Everyone else plays 10 turns from there. Please try to stick to this. People finishing on the wrong turn is my biggest headache believe it or not.

EDIT: 3000BC is turn 20 of course.

Just a quick note to let the 'team leader' (Akots?) know that I'm here, subscribed to this thread, tracking, etc. I'm looking forward to the discussion and the game!

Edit: Per MB's comment below - Vanilla's fine with me!

This game needs to be vanilla for I.Larkin who does not have PTW.

Hi, everybody,
My name is Ivan. (I.Larkin is to official)
As I said before I play civ3 1.29 and it was set as I understood. I have no objections that Akots will be administrator/leader. Let's deside variant and oder to play. I know Akots vote for 5CC+AW+RCB+double(triple) win. We may deside about win condition later, but AW and 5CC should be sorted out asap. In our team we have good experts on 5CC (Kunningas
and Conehead), moreover Conehead plays Persia 5CC and
Kunningas plaed 5CC+AW on Monarch. I think with their experience we can play AW+5CC on Regent.
About strategy at AW+5CC. We should do our research ourself, so Collosus might be a good idea. However if AI appear close to us we should think about military first.
Also, I think we need a Setler before Colosus starts.
Research. I think Pottery and IW is firs priority, but wich one is question.
Start. I'd move settler to the hills (to save forest for chop) and woker to bonus grassland. That means NE hills. Alternatevly we can move setler south and chop forest at starting point and build spear. What do you think?

I am checking in. I played a different version of 5CC where I can keep the cities we capture, but that was on diety and emperor. I think we can handle a 5CC AW on regent. So I agree with Ivan on the variant.

Let's check with mad-bax that AW+5CC is accumulated, i.e. we will get Emperor bonus. Second, there is some wariant of AW
1)Declare at the end of turn,
2)Declare when close Diplo screen,
3)Declare without first trade (i.e. no map-tech eschange at all).
4)Talk at onse if contact possible (i.e. if contact is possible, can we run away from contact and NOT declare)?

Originally posted by I. Larkin
2)Declare when close Diplo screen,I think that's the variant that Mad-Bax put in the rules, but there's a link above. I've never played an xCC, or AW, but if the rest of the team wants to do either (or both) I'm game for it.

Hi all and wellcome! Nice discussion! It would be also great to hear feedback from Kunningas.

To make the things clear:

1) We can keep the cities which we capture but only to the end of current turn.

2) AW means that we have only one chance to see the Diplo screen with AI. If we meet the AI's unit, we don't have to go to diplo screen immediately. We can wait for that AI to come see us and then declare war.

3) AW has certain specific builds and city placements. However, 5CC+AW is quite different and must be approached with creativity.

What we need to decide:

1) Order of players in roster. (I have a couple of ideas in mind).
2) Initial plan for first 20 turns (where to settle, what to build, all the moves). Do we need settler factory? Apparently not, but we want granary ASAP. Do we plan building wonders and which ones, etc.
3) Initial strategy regarding research and trades.
4) Basic discussion about what to describe in turn log and how to do in case of something unexpected happens.
5) We can all load the save (without playing) to see which civilizations we have as rivals (I have no idea).

Originally posted by akots
[1) We can keep the cities which we capture but only to the end of current turn.
Can we hold if we have less than 5? Or disband our own City instead of captured?
2) AW means that we have only one chance to see the Diplo screen with AI. If we meet the AI's unit, we don't have to go to diplo screen immediately. We can wait for that AI to come see us and then declare war.
Can we open diplo screen at war just to check situation and NOT make any deal?
3) AW has certain specific builds and city placements. However, 5CC+AW is quite different and must be approached with creativity.
For 5CC, I think, we need minimum overlap but for AW good connection...
What we need to decide:

1) Order of players in roster. (I have a couple of ideas in mind).
Could you share?
2) Initial plan for first 20 turns (where to settle, what to build, all the moves).
With initial map location south looks better, but who knows...
The only question wich hill you prefer. Close look shows water near hills, but unclear, of course, fresh or salt. We may go warrior-warrior- Granary or war-spear-setler, or sper (with forest cut)-war-Granary, or sper-war-Setler(join woker to the City). Within 20 turn we have many choises.

Do we need settler factory? Apparently not, but we want granary ASAP.
Agree. But what first Granry or setller?
Do we plan building wonders and which ones, etc.
Colosus and Great Lib. will be efficient in AW 5CC, and accessible at Regent, but probably archers and immortals will be more efficient...
3) Initial strategy regarding research and trades.
What trade? We are at AW... If you mean first tech trade - it depends. Certanly no "gifts" to AI. Do we care about Reputation? Until what time?
Research 100%, pottery. then IW.
4) Basic discussion about what to describe in turn log
Let everybody write what he/she whants. We are here for fun IMHO.

and how to do in case of something unexpected happens.
What do you mean?
5) We can all load the save (without playing) to see which civilizations we have as rivals (I have no idea).
I see: they are Atstecs, Americans, Zulu, Babilonians,Iroques.
Only Babs may star Collosus

[/B]

Great! Then, we don't need to research Pottery, should be easy to trade for it.

I think IW is a good idea but going for Monarchy is also an option. We should get out of Despotism ASAP. Colossus would be god as well as Great Library.

Re starting moves: I thought Kunningas would start.

Re capture: The rule is very clear. Do we disband our own town and keep the captured? It may depend on situation. I would try to keep at least one disposable (expendable) city just in case...

Re trade: We can certainly trade on the first diplo screen. But no gpt deals or other 20-turn deals. Only tech for tech and straight cash. No worker deals as of RBC rules.

Re settler: Settler first (after 2 warrior), then two more warriors and then another settler, then granary and barracks and start producing veteran warrior for Immortal upgrade.

Re What to log: All essential details. Complete build - where and what. What to build next. Outcome of battles and location. Some screenshots would be nice also for lurkers and for us as well.

Re enexpected: When you are stuck and don't know what to do next. Post the problem and ask teammates. Also, if cannot finish the turns on time. Just play 5 and post the same. Next would play 15, for example.

We must think of SG ethics. 24+48=72. This is maximum.

I personally never played AW+5CC and this would be a good learning experience. So, we should learn. And discuss things we don't know to know them better.

Hi team mates! My name is with two N, not three. It is Kuningas (not Kunningas).

Originally posted by akots
Re starting moves: I thought Kunningas would start.

Thanks for confidence. I'm pleased to play it.

I think IW is a good idea but going for Monarchy is also an option. We should get out of Despotism ASAP. Colossus would be god as well as Great Library.

Full speed IW then towards Literature or Monarchy?

Re settler: Settler first (after 2 warrior), then two more warriors and then another settler, then granary and barracks and start producing veteran warrior for Immortal upgrade.

My thought for initial moves, settler founds capital NE and worker mines BG on E. I should get two warriors built on 8 turns. Those two warriors should only spot good city places.

We must think of SG ethics. 24+48=72. This is maximum.

Accepted.

Sorry about triple n. It's mad-bax who made a typo in the starting post. I'll always find somebody to blame.

Looks like we are settled to start. Plans are good and very clear. The only thing we would have to do is not connecting the iron immediately if we have one. We might want to upgrade veteran warriors to Immortals. However, considering industrious nature of Persian people, we can disconnect/reconnect iron few time in the game to speed up the build of our army. Another comment about our research path: We want MapMaking somewhere on the way or can get from Great Library, not sure about that.

First player Kuningas plays 30 turns which should end in 3000BC. Please also post our Firaxis score at 3000BC for mad-bax to keep the track of competition. All subsequent players play 10 turns strictly and post the score.

Order of players:

Kuningas--> UP
I. Larkin----> ready
akots
scoutsout
Conehead

As a reminder: we are playing Civ3 1.29f. Please also note the correct name of the file to be uploaded on the server.

Good luck Kuningas! Hope you don't meet too many opponents!

Edited: If you meet them, it might be worth trying to eliminate them. On Regent, AI has no bonus units at start. Their capital can be undefended (still building a spear)!

got it. I'll play it tomorrow.

Let me get something straight here... we're going to play 5 cities max, Always War, and pursue wonders?

Good Luck!
"My thought for initial moves, settler founds capital NE and worker mines BG on E. I should get two warriors built on 8 turns. Those two warriors should only spot good city places. "
I thoght about the same, but you will "build" settler after 16 turns then, but City is still size 2. Will you waste 4 turns?
Options are: 1) build spear second or 2) researach pottery instead IW and build Granary third. I did calculations this night and can show table, how it is possible to end up with 2 Warrior, granary and settler after 30 turns.

"I'll always find somebody to blame.

Looks like we are settled to start. Plans are good and very clear. The only thing we would have to do is not connecting the iron immediately if we have one. We might want to upgrade veteran warriors to Immortals. "
why we need IW then asap?
What if Americans and Iroq at another continent? Pottery cheap and we can do it faster. You said we need Granary asap...
Anyway, I don't want to press, just discuss...

shields food gold worker comment
1 0 0 0 move BG
2 0 0 0 mine Persepol found
3 2 2 3 -
4 4 4 6 -
5 7 6 9 road
6 0 8 12 - first warrior ready
7 3 10 16 move G
8 6 12 20 mine
9 9 14 24 -
10 0 16 28 - second warrior
11 4 18 32 road
12 8 0 37 - size 2, border expand
13 12 2 42 move fur
14 16 4 47 road
15 20 6 52 - Pottery discovered (?)
16 24 8 0(?) - (May be this turn?) IW starts
17 28 10 5 cut MM begins
18 33 11 11 -
19 38 12 17 - MM back to G
20 42 14 23 -
21 46 16 28 -
22 0 18 33 Move to G Granary complete
23 4 10 38 mine
24 8 12 44 -
25 12 14 51 -
26 17 16 58 road
27 22 18 65 -
28 27 20 73 move
29 0 10 81 road settler, size 2
30 4 12 86 -
Sorry for bad layout. As RNG not participate all can be compute without playing. (It remind me playing chess without chessboard....)
Table shows shields, food, gold and worker action each turn if we move Setler to NE hill and worker to BG. third tile is fur. You may use barraks to "prebuild". I strongly recomend research Pottery first...

@scoutsout: Why not? If we can build a wonder, it would be a great help.

@I.Larkin: In addition we have Zulu which also have Pottery. Re spear: No spears in this game! Only warriors ungraded to Immortals. We are not going to defend! I also hope there is a food bonus somewhere around the start. Apparently, there is no fresh water to irrigate but we have plently of shields for units and wonders. If indeed there is fresh water, granary would be nice. But without it we'll grow to size 6 too early and we don't need settler factory then. Can pop-rush some improvements certainly. On Regent unhappiness is a small problem.

Re calculations: Have to check it out but looks fine. I just have no idea of what the surrounding terrain is around our starting location...

Re Table layout. If you have Excel and Power Point, it is possible to load table from Excel in PP and then save as a gif or jpeg file, and upload it or attach to the post.

Originally posted by akots
@scoutsout: Why not? If we can build a wonder, it would be a great help.
I think we need 3-4 Cities (2 with barraks) decent army of 12-16 ground units and then think about wonder(s).

@I.Larkin:
(Ivan, BTW).

Re spear: No spears in this game! Only warriors ungraded to Immortals.
Spear might be usefull for scouting at AW before IW. AI do not atack spear, but will atack scouting/pillaging warrior.

We are not going to defend!
When we will at be war with everybody we will defend at some points. Also, Immortals slow, they need protection. Spear can be upgrated.... I am not insist, but I don't like to waste 4 turns for nothing...

I also hope there is a food bonus somewhere around the start.
May be. Kuningas will decide. He will see from hills.
Apparently, there is no fresh water to irrigate but we have plently of shields for units and wonders. If indeed there is fresh water, granary would be nice. But without it we'll grow to size 6 too early and we don't need settler factory then. Can pop-rush some improvements certainly. On Regent unhappiness is a small problem.

Yes, and Granery will help to recover soon...

Re calculations: Have to check it out but looks fine. I just have no idea of what the surrounding terrain is around our starting location...
I just based on what I see at the start... (see my table).

Originally posted by akots
@scoutsout: Why not? If we can build a wonder, it would be a great help.Just thought it a lot to devote 20% of our empire to a wonder...but hey, what do I know, this is my first 5CC! :D

Seriously, when my turn approaches I'll be asking for pointers. My goal is to learn, and play well enough to avoid hosing up the strategies of the better players...

Akots:Re spear: No spears in this game! Only warriors ungraded to Immortals.
Ivan:Spear might be usefull for scouting at AW before IW. AI do not atack spear, but will atack scouting/pillaging warrior.


After some thinking I am not sure that Granary better, then 2 setllers. The only problem is these four turns - 16 Shield wasted!
If akots so against spear my be he will agree for third warrior?

Good plans. Can't wait to get started.

Re Wonder. Unfortunately, we are not militarisitc and playing vanilla, so there might be a problem with Great Leaders.

@Ivan Re spears. IMHO, warriors are better. This is Regent level and we can rapidly kick the AIs off our immediate surroundings. There is nothing to defend then except some colonies with luxuries or resources we might want. In this case, spears can be nice but we'll decide that later on. Major concern with too many weak units is support cost which is high in Despotism. We would be better off by having few strong units versus too many weak units. Re Granary: It is a crucial improvement and if we have a chance, should go for it. Once we scout the starting area, we should build 5 cities ASAP to decrease unit support and then start improving at least best 3 of them building everything to help our military, first, and finances, second. First implies barracks and second mostly workers and temples or libraries. Then, we can go for curency and start markets. Also, it would be nice to have Monarchy but it depends on terrain. Literature indeed seems like the key tech to speed up research. Well, lets just see how it goes. May be we already lost... not seriously... but you never know.

Why don't we see how many luxuries we can grab on this landmass before building temples... At regent level we get what, 4 content citizens? Add an MP or two, 3 lux, and we should be in okay shape happiness wise... save the gold that we'd spend maintaining temples...

Note: AW and 5 cities max. "RBC" -rules.

1 - 4000BC
Worker - E. Spot coastal on east.
Settler moves SE.

2 - 3950BC
Worker - Mine.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1Akots_3950bc.jpg
Persepolis founded. ->Warrior.

According to TechCalc, Iron Working costs 120. Currently Persepolis products 3 beakers. It is worth to switch science at 100%.

3 - 3900BC

4 - 3850BC

5 - 3800BC
Worker - Road.

6 - 3750BC
Persepolis: Warrior ->Warrior
Warrior1: SE

7 - 3700BC
Warrior1: S, Goody hut seen.
Worker: W

8 - 3650BC
Worker: Chop
Warrior1: S

9 - 3600BC
Warrior1: W

10 - 3550BC
Persepolis: Warrior ->Spear
Warrior1: SW
Warrior2: N

11 - 3500BC
Warrior1: S
Warrior2: NW

IT Palace expansion
12 - 3450BC
Warrior1: S
Warrior2: NW, goody hut seen.

13 - 3400BC
10 shields returned on Persepolis: Spear ->Settler
Worker: Road
Warrior1: SE
Warrior2: NW
Spear1: SW

14 - 3350BC
Warrior1: S
Warrior2: NW
Spear1: S

15 - 3300BC
Worker: Mine

Warrior1: S
I pop two goody huts in turn for hope of settlers:
Warrior2: NE -> Barbs
Spear1: SW -> Pottery learned

IT Brave warrior defeats two of the barbs, but third barb kills it.
16 - 3250BC
Spear: Heading back to Persepolis
Warrior1: S

17 - 3200BC
Warrior1: S, Aztecs border seen.

18 - 3150BC
Worker: SW
Warrior: S

19 - 3100BC
Worker: Road
Spear fortifies.

IT Aztecs contact us. I fully take advantage, trade Masonry and Pottery for CB, WC and 10gp. After that I tell them, all their gods are false gods and truly they will be defeated.
20 - 3050BC
Spear kills barb, not even scratch.
Warrior1: W, Tenochtitlan spotted.

21 - 3000BC
Reg warrior attacks Reg Jaguar warrior on Tenochtitlan. won [party] hit points 1/3.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1Akots_3000bc.jpg

Aztecs still have one city left. (W of Tenochtitlan).
I would join worker on Tenochtitlan and then use :whip: to get spear finished.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1Akots_3000bc2.jpg

Dot map. Shape of the landmasses is cruel. My only suggest for city is the red spot on the map.

Firaxis score: 45 - 3000BC

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1Akots-3000BC.zip)

Great fight, Kuningas! Yes, Regent is a peculiar game.

May be we don't need the settler? Just go for barracks, couple more warriors, and the continent is ours? (Joke).

Indeed map is somewhat unusual. Red dot is good but may be consider something worth building in between Teno and Persepolis as well? Granary can be a big waste of shields. Or a bright road to victory. IMO, it is worth a shot with forest chop. Persepolis would be size 1 anyhow for quite a while. Joining worker and rushing a spear in Teno may be a good idea but surely we can use a worker. Also don't know. It's up to Ivan to decide these things.

Kuningas------> Hail to mighty Aztec extinguisher!
I. Larkin----> UP Finish them up!!
akots ----------> ready
scoutsout
Conehead

Looks like we can handle this without much buildup. Hope we get some iron on these hills. Couple of immortals, some galleys and we are out in the open rampaging all over.

It's possible that Aztecs city is undefended if they are building spear. Move warrior and find out. :hammer:

Maybe it's better for worker to chop tree on W. Then it can start roading towards Persepolis.

Did they have Bronze working? If no, they have JW and the city is defended IMO, because AI avoids to send settler unescorted. But if they have BW, their JW can be wondering around and city can be undefended because it is building a spear. Worth a shot at this certainly.

Yes they had BW when they contacted me.

@Kuningas. I noticed you signed in for ISDG but never showed up in discussions. Please come, we are having some hard time to persuade people there to take the right course. Your vote and opinion would be very important there.

I would ask other people to come also but there is an announcement on CFC front page (http://www.civfanatics.com/) Your name there also has 3 "n"s :)

Great job. One civ almost gone at 3000BC, never seen that before.

Got it!

Turn year moves 0 -3000 worker joint Ten
Hire Clown in Ten
IBT Palace growth.
1 -2950 Warior Ten fortify
Setler+Spear->N, whip archer in Ten,
Worker-Cut, Settler+Spear->North, Per-Barraks.
2 -2900 war+archer->W
IBT Ten riot,
3 -2850 war+archer->W, Setler+Spear->N,
hire Taxman in Ten, set warrior, Atstec capital empty –
my mistake was not to use road with them…
IBT- Atstec Spear appear…
4 -2800 war+archer->S, Setler+Spear->N,
IBT- Atstec Spear fortify…
5 -2750 Our Archer attack and kill Spear! Atstec are history now!
Spot Zulu Scout near Ten. Talk to zulu: They have the same tech as we are,
10 gold and Zimbave only. No deal possible, declare war. Warrior S Speaer->N
Found Parsagrad, set to worker.
IBT Zulu Scout move N, forest cut
6 -2710 Spear N see dyes, worker N, warrior NE see incense, archer E.
Set Ten to worker.
IBT Zulu scout runs near Ten.
7 -2670 Spear NW, Archer E, worker N. Ajust slider 50% scie.
IBT IW come, set to Alphabet. Zulu Scout run.
8 -2630 we have 2 iron one near Pers , another sout of Ten
Spear W, warrior E, archer E, worker NW.
IBT Scout run
9 -2590 Archer kill scout. Warrior S, Spear W see land end.
10 -2550 Archer S. Warrior W, Spear E see land end. Worker mine BG.
Salamanka 3 Wash, Zim, Bab 1 all the turns
Scope 67

Dot map

Sav file

dot map

This game is NUTS! :crazyeye: Going well it appears... what an opening - was all that stuff posted today?!??!

"All Hail Kuningas, nemesis of the savage Monty :worship: All hail I. Larkin, who so bravely thumbed his nose at Shaka the goofy-looking! :ninja: "

Do we want to try and put a town somewhere between Perseopolis and Tenochtitlan? Shaka's Impi are going to be a handful until we can get some Immortals... Wonder if we can spare a warrior to get in his face and trip his GA while he's still real small...is that worth a look?

Re dot map. Terrain around Ten has water. Ten - corrupted, but grow well. We can irrigate around and whip settler. Dots are chosen to minimaze worker turns to build road Ten - Parsagrad and avoid overlap if we deside milking. Theoretically we can bring water to capital - furs will be more efficient then. How many we need Cities for FP? Zulu shuld be somewhere. Do we want despotic GA with five size 6 Cities? Why not? With Libraries it will be efficient on our terrain.
Re:Immortals. Do we want all of them as Warrior Upgrade? I have no idea, where we get money for that. May be better connect Iron and build Immortals with Forest Cut? BTW, if immortal win on barbarian will it trig GA?

Some thoughts - We don't need to worry about getting water to Perseopolis for the time being. There are enough grassland squares to grow it to size 6 after we clear some forests...

We should avoid over-improving Pasargarde. We have dyes in Tenochtitlan, and units produced there will take a while to reach the Zulu. We may want to build a galley or two there, but I don't see us keeping that city until end-game...

Gold - maybe we could do a little "barbarian farming" to get some gold...

Forbidden Palace - not sure we'll need one with just 5 cities...

I'm not sure we're going to have much of a choice on the despotic Golden Age... We're either going to need Immortals or a lot of archers to take out Shaka...

OK, good progress, Ivan! We got 2 irons!! Archer was a good idea, kudos!

Did Zulu come to you? Or you just met them and went to diplo screen yourself? Are Aztec gone completely or they still have a city?

To prevent a city from riot, we do have to check EVERY CITY EVERY TURN! Its only 5 CC, so not a big deal. But we cannot afford riots in our cities as well as clowns. However, it might be OK.

Do you have any idea of Zulu location?

What do you suggest for me to pursue?

Roster:

Kuningas
I.Larkin ----->just played
akots-------->UP and got it
scoutsout---->ready to go
conehead234

//BTW, if immortal win on barbarian will it trig GA?
No it won´t trigger GA.

FP we need 8 cities to be able to build it.

//What do you suggest for me to pursue?

We are short on gold. Before warrior upgrades we may pursue archer rush. Just build 5-8 archers and 1-2 spear on next twenty turns. This stack can take out any city or two at regent. Downside is rivals are a long way of.

Great Job. Get those immortals and take out Shaka.

//BTW, if immortal win on barbarian will it trig GA?
nope.
yes or no?

Akots:
"What do you suggest for me to pursue?"
First check Parsagrad. I set worker to mine and build worker in Parsagrad. As a resul worker will be too early. You may stop worker and build road first, or build warrior first, or leave it as it is... it is small difference.
You wrote:
" Just go for barracks, couple more warriors, and the continent is ours? (Joke)."
why not? You can MM now to get warrior each 2 turns and archer each 4 turns. If you keep south army alive (avoid combat with scouting warrior) we may take Zimbabve with 4 warriors and two archers. I have no idea wher it is. I even don't know SE or SW from Ten, may be I should go SW first... I can estimate distance Zim-Ten: it is approximately Persepol-Ten distance or more. I spot zulu scout SEE of Ten. It takes 25 turns for scout. You may take a risk and send Archer to check SE of Ten for sure. We can whip Spear in Ten in case of emergency.
"Did Zulu come to you? Or you just met them and went to diplo screen yourself? Are Aztec gone completely or they still have a city?"
I open diplo screen myself. May be it was wrong idea. Atstec gone. (I wrote: "they are a history now")
So plan for 10 turns is:
Pers-> warrior, warrior, archer, warrior; please do MM! It will also good for gold.
Pars-> worker, barraks (forest cut)
Ten-> worker, worker. Irrigate Cow and start road (without irr) to Pers. Do MM to keep food at Ten at max.
I will write long term plan later.

"Some thoughts - We don't need to worry about getting water to Perseopolis for the time being. There are enough grassland squares to grow it to size 6 after we clear some forests..."
100% agree! we will build MU only now. We don't need temple with 2 Lux and do not ned Granary as it will grow size 6 well before Construction.

"We should avoid over-improving Pasargarde. We have dyes in Tenochtitlan, and units produced there will take a while to reach the Zulu. We may want to build a galley or two there, but I don't see us keeping that city until end-game..."
30% agree.
Barraks only for 60 turns or so, Units and worker. But I think it is good place in general. God knows where Babs, Iro and Amer are. May be at the land NW. It will be short way there.

"Gold - maybe we could do a little "barbarian farming" to get some gold..."
May be. Again, Parsagrad is a good place for that.
"Forbidden Palace - not sure we'll need one with just 5 cities..."
Without FP Ten is "useless". But it is onlu fresh-water City and have dyes. What do you think about my dot map and City Location? (If Parsagrad disposable and no FP in Ten?)

"I'm not sure we're going to have much of a choice on the despotic Golden Age... We're either going to need Immortals or a lot of archers to take out Shaka..."
Who knows? 3 Archers is "a lot"? I have little experience on Regent, but what if things will go as before?
However I donot whant to delay GA to AD.
Please send your suggessioun about Cyti placement. We have map of our land now.
Regards, Ivan

@I. Larkin a couple of thoughts:

On Pasargarde: Barracks is not over-improving, IMO. What I mean is, let's not build temple-library-marketplace, etc. in that city unless we are sure we want to keep it. I did not mean to say that I thought it was a bad city, I'm just not sure we won't want to disband it at some point. Barracks and units out of that city should be fine....

How we might be able to get a Forbidden Palace: Let's say we've got 5 cities, and one that we'd like to have a FP in. Make 3 settlers, have them settle something, set build queue to FP somewhere, disband the 3 cities formed by the settlers...

Here's my suggestion for the next city - one tile south of the southern site that was already suggested. Here are the strengths of that site, as I see them:
1) It can provide a canal for ships to cross
2) It can provide 2 grass, 1 hill, and 1 forest in the 9 tiles around the city... it can grow to size 4 producing 6 shields when those 4 tiles are improved.
3) It is on the way from Perseopolis to Tenochtitlan and the rest of the AIs we need to fight...

Here's my dotmap (yellow dot is proposed city site).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_scout_dotmap.jpg

Your yellow dot looks go. Go for it.

There is a little difference between my and your dots. I also think we should build it asap. Argument are the same... Your point will have more corruption, but one more grassland. May be your better, as I think we will build it from whiped Tenochlian Settler.
what do you think about another dot?
I put it there as transit point and RCP argument. (Parsagrad allready corrupted "a bit"). Alternatively, we can
have one more channel across our land and we can move it SW. Anyway, it is size 4 City before MMkg. I think we will build it from Parsagrad Setler. We even can build road before that.
When road connect Parsagrad it will only 1.6 turn longer way than Persepol. Any idea how to build road asap?

Plan to 1000 BC (60 turns from now).
I think it is a good time to trig our GA. The Cities will grow to size 6 approximately and we may discover Literacy. I hope road Tenochtitlian - Parsagrad will also complete at this time. We will not need temples then. We should also road/mine fur tiles that will generate 3 shields at GA. We can Pre-build Libraries (I estimate we may have about 30 Military Units). Therefore we should connect our Iron soon to avoid overproduction of warriors.) We may whip barracks in Tenochtitlian. BTW, is double whip allowed by RCB rules? I mean set Spear, whip, change to barracks, whip again? We can do the same for Library to pick up Game.
Alternatively we can go Math – Construction way, but it will take longer time, also benefit from Aqueducts will be not so straight as from Libs. So I think the path
Writing -> Literacy-> Math-> Construction or Writing -> Literacy-> Map Making-> Math-> Construction looks as a sensible idea.
It might happen, however, that we will crush Zulu well before that date without immortals. Now they have only size 1 City, but may be they have settler already. It is a good idea to check F11 each turn to see dynamics. If we finish them, research route will be the same IMHO, but we will decide about GA later.
I think (at least at this stage) we do NOT need Monarchy. At our “average” terrain without bonuses we’ll gain only 2 shields at Persepol and 2 Food at Tenochtitlian. Also we can whip Tenochtitlian at Despotism. I would go to Republics then, if war conduct will be as before ww will not be a problem. Also, we can build Temples at the end and Colony at Incenses.
Can anybody write something about planning?
Regards, Ivan.

Some more thoughts....

@ Ivan: On the differences between the 2 city sites, are you looking at 9 tiles or 21? (I was looking at 9...)

On the "Road Issue", I can't remember if we have a granary in Perseopolis, but 2 workers and 1 spear ought to be a good road building crew. Get 4 workers and they can leap over each other (2 build road, 2 walk over new road to next square to build road on next turn...) We could road 1 tile every turn... until the road we need is built... with 1 spear to guard against barbs...

@ everybody: Has anybody considered a "Palace Jump"? Might be a LOT more effective than a FP... the basic idea is to pick the city where we want the palace to be, grow it until it's the largest city... pop a settler out of our capitol, disband capitol (new capitol in largest city) and resettle old capitol location...

At the moment I think we ought to build as many archers as we can and send them against the Aztecs...

Research priority: Map Making. We need to get some galleys out. Immortals are good until the middle ages. The more civs we can take out before the middle ages, the better. Put Immortals into stacks of 4. Few cities can withstand 4 immortals...

To skousout: do you know what "nope" mean yes or no?
//BTW, if immortal win on barbarian will it trig GA?
nope.
If no we can use Immortals as MP/barbarin hunters (paradox)
Re: 9-21, does not matter. I think yor place bit better.
Re: MMkg-Lit we can deside later. That mean Writing after Alpabet.
Re Palace jump. it is 10% fine. also Persepol our best Cyti...
Where to Jump? To Ten?

Originally posted by I. Larkin
To skousout: do you know what "nope" mean yes or no?
//BTW, if immortal win on barbarian will it trig GA?
nope. Okay - at first I though you were picking on me - and then it occured to me that maybe your native language is not english. Your profile says you are in Atlanta, but are you originally from somewhere else?

American slang: nope=no

@Americans - maybe we should avoid slang words...

@Ivan: If you attack barbarians with Immortals, it will not trigger a Golden Age. Barbarians do not matter for Unique Unit triggering Golden Age....

Writing is next - Map Making versus Literature decision can wait - I agree...

Palace Jump - the idea is to put the palace where it will do the most good for corruption. Another decision that can wait 10 turns or more...maybe Tenochtitlan, maybe one of the cities we have not settled yet...

Hey, we cannot move the Palace! It is against RBC rules and in 5CC it would aways be. Make sure you all read them! The variant with some additions is posted by mad-bax. Also, GOTM and RBC exploits are prohibited as well. Otherwise, the discussion seems interesting. I would try to pursue a closer build around capital for lower corruption and lower settler travel time. We can later disband that particular city we don't want.

I'm playing now will post tomorrow morining or afternoon.

I have created a maintenance thread for this game >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1744816#post1744816).

It will be used for scores and announcements so it might be a good idea to bookmark it.

Inherited, looking around. Nothing much, all quiet. Zulu got a nice score increase recently, so probably built their second city. We have 3 cities already and can support 12 units. Compared to Zulu, our military is average, so probably they have 2 impi, may be one worker and archer or warrior.

IBT. Teno switched from worker to warrior. The city is badly corrupt. Pasargadae also switched to warrior. There are 3 undefended cities out of 3! Persepolis rax->warrior.

[1] 2510BC. Spear goes back, warrior goes to the mountain, archer moves to Teno and fortifies.

[2] 2470BC. Warrior goes to the mountains and spots red border. Is that Shaka? IBT. Teno: warrior->archer.

[3] 2430BC. Warrior in Teno fortifies, archer goes south to red border. Red is magically attractive to me. IBT. Persepolis warrior->worker, Pasargadae warrior->warrior.

[4] 2390BC. The red border belongs to Babylon. Where is Shaka then? Rushed archer in Teno. There were 2 content citizens there. IBT Teno archer->archer.

[4] 2350BC. New archer from Teno moves north-east. Arrows sharpened eager to draw some Zulu blood.

[5] 2310BC. Advancing to Babylon. Reinforcements on the way. IBT. Babylon comes and asks to go away. They have nothing to trade. Declared war. Persepolis worker->granary.

[6] 2270BC. Babylon has bowman defending. This is not good. We can either attack with warrior or pillage the tile and let the warrior die to bowman. Attack is suicidal. We pillage. IBT. Babylon attacks us with 2 warriors. Our brave guy survives both attacks and promotes to veteran. Babylonian bowman fortifies.

[7] 2230BC. Whipped the last possible archer in Teno. City now must wait to get a content citizen. For now it goes as a scientist. Warrior advances to another BG near Babylon aiming to pillage that as well. IBT. Two Zulu warriors appear from west in Babylonian region. Teno archer->warrior, Pasargadae warrior->hmm… granary for now. Need some growth after whipping.

[8] 2190BC. Warrior continues siege of Babylon by pillaging another tile. Babylon goes to size 1 from size 2 (rushed another bowman?). F3 jerk tells me our military is strong against Babylon and Zulu which is a good news. IBT. Zulu warriors move somewhere. Do they know where are they going?

[9] 2150BC. Archers run, breathing heavily. Babylon grows to size 2 again. They now have apparently 2 bowmen there. IBT. Zulu warriors move to our archer.

[10] 2110BC. Warrior near Babylon pillages the last BG tile. Northern archer reveals tip of peninsula, no Zulu there. Archer attacks Zulu warrior, kills him, redlines, and promotes to veteran. Score 84.

Note to scoutsout: It looks like Babylon would attack our warrior. Well, he pillaged 3 tiles and if we lose him, no big deal. They would also have Golden Age. Also, no big deal. Alphabet is due soon. Then we can go for Writing and Map Making. Don’t really know what other techs we need now. Persepolis and Pasargadae are both set to granaries. They would be supported by forest chops. Teno is unhappy, we must allow some time for people to calm down. Zulu are somewhere to south-east apparently but I’m not sure. We have 2 archers in the area which may come pay Shaka a visit. Also, there is a regular warrior moving from Pasargadae to guard Persepolis just in case. Spear and warrior moving south from Persepolis can join our assault force going for Zimbabwe. I suggest to leave Babylon alone for the moment. We cannot fight their bowmen normally before immortals. Impi are also strong, so main goal might be just to weaken and distract Shaka while we build up. Two our northern workers should chop forest, build roads and mine grassland around our core cities. Teno is a good city but if we lose it, it is not a big deal. If there is some possibility to rush a spear in it later, we might save it then but it was heavily whipped even for Regent. It would grow in 7 turns to size 2 again, thanks for that cow. Unhappiness should end soon (next turn probably), so you can set the scientist back to farming that cow. Otherwise, situation looks good. We might want to build the third Persian city south of Persepolis but for now, let our capital build granary and only then, at size 4 or 5 it can go for settler. Since we must research on our own, having good population might help. Good luck!

Roster:

Kuningas
I.Larkin
akots-------> Just played, building up some military
Scoutsout->UP Play the war game!
conehead234-->Polishing battlegear and sharpening arrows and spears

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1AKOTS_2110_bc.sav)

And some screenies for lurkers from other threads.

1) Area revealed by our archer scouting NW of Teno.
2) Babylonionan battleground.
3) Our "decent" military.

Edited: AFAIK, we are allowed to read other roster threads but are not allowed to discuss them here. Please stick to filename suggested by mad-bax at start to avoid confusion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1ak-NorthWestTeno.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1ak-BabylonBattleground.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1ak-Military2110BC.JPG

I got the save. Will re-read turlogs and play my turns later today. One quick question: Building granaries in our 2 productive cities? Need more archers...

Originally posted by scoutsout
I got the save. Will re-read turlogs and play my turns later today. One quick question: Building granaries in our 2 productive cities? Need more archers...

Persepolis - definitely yes! Pasargadae - not so sure, may be 80%. Granaries will speed growth and enable more pop-rushing and science. In the long run, it would be much better. Workers should
1) Chop forest.
2) Build road for a new citizen to give us some research.
3) Build mine.

Watch for new citizens that they are farming on grassland for faster growth and not on some forest or plains.

Archers you can get from Teno. We have spear and warrior reinforcement coming from north. Babylon is terribly retarded and makes a little threat atm. Zulu would try to attack with impi or warriors. Shaka is known for his persistence. So, putting 2 archers and spear (whipped from Teno) in SOD and moving to his territory would be a good idea. Leaving a warrior in Teno for defense then.

Personally, I feel sympathy for Shaka but we must be ruthless in this game to survive and win early. Pillage everything you see.

Good job. By the time it is my turn I will have noone left to kill.

Turnlog: Persia SGOTM 5CC AW Team Akots Cossacks

Pre-Flight Check:

Our scientist in Tenochtitlan is not producing any more beakers. Place citizen on cattle, city will grow in 7 and produce a worker in 8. Even with the corruption in Tenochtitlan, we can use this as a worker factory... A Granary in Pasargarde? Change queue to Archer... Science check: We can still get Alphabet in 2 turns @ 70% research and gain 1 gpt instead of losing 1...

=====
IBT - Babylonian Bowman attacks our warrior, redlines him, but dies!
Zulu warrior kills our archer
=====
Turn 1/2070 BC
Warrior S, Worker Road (3), Spear S, Warrior SE, Archer S, Archer W
Our 1 HP Warrior attacks Babylonian Bowman and dies, but starts Hammurabi's Golden Age with 1 unimproved city and 1 boman.
=====
IBT - We learn Alphabet, go for Writing in 23 turns @ 80%
=====
Turn 2/2030 BC
Worker road (2) Granary in 8... MM Citizen to forest, Granary in 6, Growth in 8
Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior S, Archer SE

=====
NOTE: At some point a few turns later I took the worker back off the forest and put him back on the mined grassland tile. When we got our Granary a little quicker, and it was already full of food when built. I forgot to note in the log when I did that Micro-managment...

=====
IBT - Zulu Warrior NE to Mountain
=====
Turn 3/1990 BC
Archer S, Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior S
=====
IBT- Zulu Warrior N to Hill
=====
Turn 4/1950 BC
Archer NE to get Zulu warrior on open ground, Archer SE, Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior SE
Worker finished road > mine
Worker finishes road, move SE
=====
IBT - Zulu Warrior NE
=====
Turn 5/1910 BC
Pasargarder Archer> Archer
Archer is a regular (?) change queue to Barracks, move archer S, SE
Worker Road (2)
Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior S
Archer S
Archer attacks Zulu Warrior, redlines, but kills Zulu Warrior
=====
IBT - nothing
=====
Turn 6/1870 BC
Red Archer - Skip
Archer S, Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior S, Archer S
=====
IBT - Babylonian City of UR founded
=====
Turn 7/1830 BC
Worker finishes road, S
Barb Warning in Pasargarde, move archer N
Worker SW, W, N (our workers are now together, can build a road in 1 turn on open terrain)
Warrior NW (to act as a guard for the road building crew as they build roads to the south)
Spear S, Warrior SW
Archer S, Yellow Archer skip
=====
IBT - nothing
=====
Turn 8/1790 BC
Tenochtitlan Worker> Worker
Warrior S, Spear S, Warrior N
Workers build road; Pasargarde and Perseopolis now connected
Archer NE, N, NE
Archer S,
Archer kills barb
=====
IBT - Barb shows face north of Pasargarde
=====
Turn 9/1750 BC
Perseopolis Granary > Archer
Workers S, S
Archer N, Sees 2 barbs, Wake Warrior in Pasargarde, NE, N
Warrior NE
Spear SE
Warrior S
Archer SE to incense hill in UR
=====
IBT - Barb attacks our warrior, barb move south toward Pasargarde
Babylonian Bowman E to Mountain
=====
Turn 10/1725 BC
Archer kills barb N of Pasargarde, Warrior move N to find barb camp
Workers Road (2)
Warrior skip
Spear S, Warrior S
Fortify Archer on Incense hill NE of UR, put second archer on hill
=====

Notes:

Barbs messed with me enough that I could bring much against Babylon. The 2 archers on the incense hill are a risk, but I managed to get 1 fortifed... Bowmen will be tough to kill on high ground...

Don't overdo it with the science slider - play with it and note whether going from 70% or 80% will really get us a tech any faster. At some point we will need to pull the slider WAY down so we can build up cash to upgrade a bunch of warriors to Immortals... We may also need to play with the Lux slider a little as our cities grow. With Pasargarde and Perseopolis both connected to furs, this should not be a big problem soon...

I changed to Barracks in Pasargarde because we need Veteran Units. We don't need more than one granary in this game.

We should be able to pump Tenochtitlan for another worker or two to complete our "highway" to the south...

I hope the turnlog is detailed enough, I messed it up in at least one place (the second MM in Perseopolis).

Here's The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1akots-1725_bc.sav)

And here's an annotated screenshot:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1_akots_5CCAW1725.jpg

Akots - I know you wanted a Granary in Pasargarde... I just saw a risk that our military would start to suffer waiting on the Granary... apoligies for changing your build queue...

I wonder if the area east of Ur is coast, or a land bridge. If the Zulu are located south of Babylon, then Babylon is the next logical military priority. Babylon's Golden Age is about halfway over already.

We've got 3 workers to put to work building our "highway". The 2 in the north should be able to build a section of road every other turn. When the time comes to settle the next city, the settler should be able to move quickly down the road... the other worker can work his way north...

When we have a highway that connects Tenochtitlan to Perseopolis, we'll have 2 luxuries hooked up... which should give us a little more leeway for those of us that seem to favor the whip. :whipped:

Though badly corrupt, we should be able to produce a mix of warriors and workers from Tenochtitlan. Perhaps we should consider whipping a barracks there...

I got it. If that water SE of Ur is fresh it (If it says 2 food when it is right clicked on). would mean that is a land bridge.

Good progress! Not much bloodshed but some buildup!

@Scoutsout. Ideally, we would want 5 granaries in all our cities. Building workers in Teno and archers in the north makes no sense to me. We might want to strike Zulu and Babylon ASAP and for archers to travel from north would take too long time. Whipping frequently some military on Regent level in Teno could allow us to strike quickly and with decisive force. Meanwhile, garanaries in the core cities would ensure our growth. I think I have explained that. There is a place for growth and a place for whipping. We would be willing to start whipping in the core slightly later to rush Immortals. Also, I would not worry too much about connecting luxuries in this game. As well as saving some money while our cities are small. Later on, we will have higher income and would not need much techs. Overall, however, it was a good thing to do because of barbarians. So, Persian arrows have found some targets to strike!

Please also do not forget to indicate our score at the end of your turns.

SE of Ur in not a landbridge apparently. We have to get through Babylon/Ur to reach the Zulu.

Roster

Kuningas ------> Ready
I.Larkin
akots
scoutsout-------> Bowmen skullcrusher, just player
conehead234--> UP and got it, gear shining like sun blinding Zulu and Babylonians

Good luck

I loaded the save to take a closer look. A few things should be discussed IMO and I decided to write up this post for educational purposes of teammates.

1) Score is 94 in 1725BC.
2) Pasargadae should have forest chopped and then grassland mined instead of working forest. Growth is priority here. Rax we don't need immediately. Regular troops are Ok for barbarians.
3) Two workers are working together on 1 tile. This is waste of 1 turn for each worker for movement.
4) They are building road in forest. First, forest has to be chopped and then road built and terrain mined.
5) Apparently, granary in Persepolis was whipped because it is still at size 2. This is not a good thing to do because kills the idea of granary. There was another forest to chop to help with building it.
6) Spear might want to move to archers as well as warrior to ensure their survival. We may have a couple of bowmen to fight. Guarding worker building road is something we might want to avoid.

Overall it is still Ok but we are starting to fall behind from projected science and growth rates for our two major cities.

General comment: It would be nice to discuss what you are going to do before doing it to hear some impact from the team. It is still useful to discuss later on but better for the game to do it in advance.

Originally posted by akots
I loaded the save to take a closer look. A few things should be discussed IMO and I decided to write up this post for educational purposes of teammates.

1) Score is 94 in 1725BC.
2) Pasargadae should have forest chopped and then grassland mined instead of working forest. Growth is priority here. Rax we don't need immediately. Regular troops are Ok for barbarians.
3) Two workers are working together on 1 tile. This is waste of 1 turn for each worker for movement.
4) They are building road in forest. First, forest has to be chopped and then road built and terrain mined.
5) Apparently, granary in Persepolis was whipped because it is still at size 2. This is not a good thing to do because kills the idea of granary. There was another forest to chop to help with building it.
6) Spear might want to move to archers as well as warrior to ensure their survival. We may have a couple of bowmen to fight. Guarding worker building road is something we might want to avoid.

Overall it is still Ok but we are starting to fall behind from projected science and growth rates for our two major cities.

General comment: It would be nice to discuss what you are going to do before doing it to hear some impact from the team. It is still useful to discuss later on but better for the game to do it in advance.
Let me, please, be straight, (my apology in advance). We have to share experience.
1) score is OK taking into account this whipping.
2) I wrote, that we do not need granaries, as we will saturate at size 6 well before construction. Because of that growth was not first priority.
Military units from Persepol is what we needed first of all. With MMg you could get vet warrior in 2 turns and sent to Parsagrad. We can have 5 City only and can’t afford non-vet units. Parsagrad also could produce vet unit. It was strange that you build worker in Persepol, rather than Parsagrad.
3) You right, but this road is important.
4) It will take many turns and will give the same result. Moreover, mining of fur will not add shield on despotism.
5)Was it whipped?
6) I agree with this point. Until barbarians have no horses it is OK. However, if you move worker and see barbarian very little you can do. Better to know where you move.

Comment to general comment. It is a very good idea. We had discussion with Scoutsout day before you play, I wrote detailed a perspective plans, we also discussed dot map but you did not participate in the discussion with immediate pre-player and post-player. Now I understand how maddening when post-player destroy your (my) plans. We have different styles of playing; as I see my style closer to Scoutsout.

What do you think about dot-map? We need more 2 more Cities asap as we have 11 units already… I would switch barracks to settler in Parsagrad and Settler in Teno, irrigate cow and cut Game forest then, build road as Scoutsout suggested.

Originally posted by scoutsout
Akots - I know you wanted a Granary in Pasargarde... I just saw a risk that our military would start to suffer waiting on the Granary... apoligies for changing your build queue...

I wonder if the area east of Ur is coast, or a land bridge. If the Zulu are located south of Babylon, then Babylon is the next logical military priority. Babylon's Golden Age is about halfway over already.

We've got 3 workers to put to work building our "highway". The 2 in the north should be able to build a section of road every other turn. When the time comes to settle the next city, the settler should be able to move quickly down the road... the other worker can work his way north...

When we have a highway that connects Tenochtitlan to Perseopolis, we'll have 2 luxuries hooked up... which should give us a little more leeway for those of us that seem to favor the whip. :whipped:

Though badly corrupt, we should be able to produce a mix of warriors and workers from Tenochtitlan. Perhaps we should consider whipping a barracks there...
I think you did OK, I am sceptical about fast invasion, however. Defenetly archers needs spear to cup or at least cheap warrior to take counterstrike. I hope that with vet units from the north we will not lose Teno at least... I think we do need this highway and 1-2 Cityes on it. Your yellow dot defenetely the must... I think Settler from Teno is a good idea. First worker should return and irrigate cow, than cut forest on Games. It may be road there as a part of highway. I think we can do it by 1 worker from north and anothe from south. One should inprove Persepol land.
Re:Palace jump is brriliant Idea, (I calculated) thats a pity we can't do it...
Re: Lit vs MapMg I think we need Lit first. Libs are the best impovement we can have, and the cheapest btw. It is unlikely that we finish Babs and Zulu in 30 turns without Immortals. However to go to GA without Libraries will be not so efficient.
We can research MapMg quick in GA if we save money. Thats why I think we shuld Build Immortals rather then upgrade. For this upgrade we need your highway btw.
Regards, Ivan.

Originally posted by conehead234
Your yellow dot looks go. Go for it.
It looks that you may do it (or prepare). Swap to settler in Teno,
Irigate Cow, than go to Games to cut forest - we will have setlter soon. Build road and continue Scoutscout highway.
Good luck at battle of Ur.
Ivan

Originally posted by scoutsout
Okay - at first I though you were picking on me - and then it occured to me that maybe your native language is not english. Your profile says you are in Atlanta, but are you originally from somewhere else?

American slang: nope=no

@Americans - maybe we should avoid slang words...

I am native russian speaker. I am 2 years in Atlanta...
Speak as you want - I have to learn slang a bit.


Originally posted by scoutsout
Writing is next - Map Making versus Literature decision can wait - I agree...

I wrote, why Lit is better first.

Originally posted by akots
A few things should be discussed I agree...2) Pasargadae should have forest chopped and then grassland mined instead of working forest. Growth is priority here. Rax we don't need immediately. Regular troops are Ok for barbarians.Regular troops may be okay for barbs, but we need to send veterans against the babs and zulu. 3) Two workers are working together on 1 tile. This is waste of 1 turn for each worker for movement.I disagree. These 2 workers can complete a new section of road every other turn. This will dramatically speed up the movement of our veteran troops to the south.
4) They are building road in forest. First, forest has to be chopped and then road built and terrain mined.Forests should only be chopped to complete improvements, IMO. Dumping 10 shields into a unit that only needs 5 to complete is a waste of forest...
5) Apparently, granary in Persepolis was whipped because it is still at size 2. This is not a good thing to do because kills the idea of granary. There was another forest to chop to help with building it.This is not correct As I stated in the turnlog, I micromanaged a citizen to work the forest for a couple of turns. At the time I did this, the city growth was on pace to grow the same turn the granary was completed. By MMing the citizen to work the forest, the granary was completed a turn sooner. Though growth was slowed for a couple of turns, the granary was full when it was completed, and completed early, which will help long term growth. If you had read my turn log you would know this.
6) Spear might want to move to archers as well as warrior to ensure their survival. We may have a couple of bowmen to fight. Guarding worker building road is something we might want to avoid.One barbarian camp is all it will take to kill our workers, and pillage our road.
Overall it is still Ok but we are starting to fall behind from projected science and growth rates for our two major cities.First, I have not seen any "projections" as far as science goes. Setting science to 100% to get a tech in 2 turns is not better than science at 70% to get the same tech in the same 2 turns. High growth is going to come back to bite if you whip at every possible opportunity.
General comment: It would be nice to discuss what you are going to do before doing it to hear some impact from the team. It is still useful to discuss later on but better for the game to do it in advance.

There are a couple of things in the posts that followed my turns that are not correct:
1) I did not whip the Granary in Perseopolis.
2) I did not make a worker in Pasargarde. I did move the worker that was in that area south, and connected it to Perseopolis (and furs). I then moved both workers south to work on a road that will greatly speed up our units as they move south to face the Babylonians and Zulu. We cannot conquer these 2 civs only with units whipped out of Tenochtitlan, IMO.

General comments: This game has evolved rather quickly, with very little pre-turn strategizing or discussion of priorities. When I got the game, there were several things that struck me... units scattered from scouting ...a scientist in Tenochtitlan not producing any additional beakers of science. I made what I thought were strong moves given the resources I had.

@Ivan - thanks for your comments, and "cutting me some slack" on the pre-play discussion, etc.

On Literature: I agree with you - some early Libraries can give us a big research boost. I set the research queue to Map Making through Writing - it could easily be changed to Literature. When I wrote that the decision on Map Making v. Literature "could wait" it was because I knew I would only get part of the way to Writing... which is required for Literature and Map making...

On a settler in Tenochtitlan - change build queue to warrior, and let the city get to size 2. If the city still produces only one shield, it may take the full 30 turns to build a settler in Tenochtitlan. (Corruption is bad there...)

Originally posted by akots
Hey, we cannot move the Palace! It is against RBC rules and in 5CC it would aways be. Make sure you all read them! The variant with some additions is posted by mad-bax. Also, GOTM and RBC exploits are prohibited as well. Otherwise, the discussion seems interesting. I would try to pursue a closer build around capital for lower corruption and lower settler travel time. We can later disband that particular city we don't want.

I'm playing now will post tomorrow morining or afternoon.
Here is the rules:
Rules of the Game.

This game will be played under GOTM rules. Any contravention of these rules will be considered cheating.
Note: This includes the "Remote Palace" exploit rule introduced recently.
The one exception is that war Mobilization is ALLOWED. However, the infinite shields exploit is NOT ALLOWED.

The following tactics/exploits will result in a one time 10% deduction in final Jason score for the team and are taken from the Exploitative Tactics section from RBCiv.

1. Breaking a peace treaty within its' 20 turn duration - other than a straight peace for peace deal.

2. Intentionally breaking a trade route by pillaging or selling harbours/airports.

3. Free palace jumping.

4. RoP Rape.

5. MPP RoP abuse. Using an RoP with a Civ that has an MPP with your target Civ in order to place troops.

6. Using lots of settlers to "tunnel" into an opponents territory. With enough settlers you can get anywhere within the opponents territory you want in one turn.

7. Whipping in cities that do not have at least one content citizen.

8. Building cities right on the opponents border with the sole intention of peacefully stealing land. It's OK to use a single settler to get your arty in range of a city since this is not "peaceful". It is not OK to build a city 2 tiles from another in order to steal a resource. (This is not exactly the same as RBCiv, too bad).

9. Using workers or undefended cities for manipulating the AI's army and dragging them out of position.

10. Ship Chaining.

11. Using non-combat units to prevent the AI landing on your territory.

12. Drafting units in otherwise worthless cities and disbanding them in others to hurry production.

13. Through trading - leaving an AI opponent with fewer than two workers before 1000BC. If you buy workers, you must be able to demonstrate that the AI have at least two left before 1000BC.

14. The use of the "Big Picture" screen on the discovery of a new tech in order to change build queues or alter the number of turns of anarchy you get in government switch.

15. No palace moves at all after 10BC. This is not an RBCiv rule, but I'm making it anyway. NO EXCEPTIONS. If the AI sack your capital after 10BC you'll lose 10% of your score. Serves you right.

Everything else is allowed. So suicide galleys, ICS, RCP, pre-building, remote wars with no prospect of any warfare, using RoP to irrigate the tiles around an opponents wonder building city etc. are all OK, though not necessarily nice.

Once you have violated one of the rules listed above, there will be no further penalty for further violations.
That mean, thet we could move Palce and do many things just for 10%.
You intenntionally build Granary to prevent Palce jump?
It looks, that you play for AIs...

@Ivan and scoutsout. Re: discussion. Very nice discussion indeed. However, there is little point to argue on these simple things. So, if we have done something, it is already done and it is not a big disaster in any case.

What I'm trying to explain is based on some gameplaying experience and understanding of basic principles of the game. However, we are playing against Regent AI. In this case, the most efficient early growth and the most efficient worker and military movement is not extremely important. If we had played this game against Deity AI, we would have already lost. Since we have not lost yet, it is OK.

If you really want to improve the opening of the game, I suggest some great articles written up by Cracker (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=31014). I can repeat his thoughts here applied to the current situation in our game. I need some time to go through each of your points and would try to explain what is optimal and what is non-optimal.

Edited: I would again say major kudos to Kuningas and I.Larkin for brilliant elimination of Aztec (with some pRNG help). This makes our current life substantially more easy.

Edited again: Regarding difficulty of the game. IMO, this game played with RBC rules (no Palace jump) can be rated very close to Emperor-Deity level epic game with nice start on the river with few bonuses with few differences. We really have a very slim chance to lose completely. Eventually, we would probably win. Map is extremely cruel and AI locations are excellent compared to our start. But please do not give up. We just have to play accurately. For inspiration, there is a nice description of a Sid game won by Kronic without military. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=84619) If people can win such kind of game, we would certainly prevail!!

@Ivan. The game is played by the RBC rules. The point is to play by these rules and not to try to violate them seeking some small penalty. We are not trying to avoid breaking them, we are firmly set to NOT breaking them under any circumstances.

If we get a great leader, we may consider building a new Palace if it happens before 10AD.

Please take your time to study the rules which are described in great detail here. (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html) We might also want to use honorable tactics avoiding dastardly behavior as much as possible considering we are playing AW.

Following these strict rules make the game more difficult indeed, usually at least one level higher than playing by GOTM rules. But we would get +7% to the final score as a consolation.

I would also appreciate if you make a better use of quotes. Quoting everything several times contaminates the thread with unneeded repetitions and makes it difficult to understand what you mean and what particular points you address. VB Code is described in detail here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/misc.php?action=bbcode#buttons). Please take your time to read it and you may edit the posts to avoid redundancies.

@Ivan. Re score: Would recommend some reading on how the score of the game is determined. Indeed an excellent article written by SirPleb. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_maxscore.shtml)
Another must read piece of art is article about 5CC games written by Charis. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_5cc.shtml)
Re granaries: If our cities grow faster, we can get more possibilities of whipping. In between whipping, we would build some units for military police and a temple. Also, if the cities are more populated, we can have more shields and military build would be faster as well as research. Also, we might have a better outcome after building settler. Granary is extremely useful improvement which value is very often underestimated.
Re worker in Persepolis: This city desperately needed a worker to improve tiles. I would prefer to build it in Pasargadae but it was size 1 atm. Again repeating that building a military units and transporting them south in our core is not a good idea atm.
Re highway: We would do better without it transporting accumulated troops by galleys. I do not like the idea of highway because it is too expensive for us in terms of worker turns. They are better invested into improving the core.
Re chopping forest before building road: It takes only 5 turns to chop the forest since our workers are industrious. And them build road in 2 turns for total 7 turns + 10 shields. Building a road through forest takes 3 turns. Moving 2 workers to build a road through forest would take 2 turns (rounded 1.5 turns) thus waste 1 worker turn for extra movement there and 1 worker turn for this rounding.
Re playing style: Indeed, there are only two playing styles: Optimal or not optimal and one goal which is conquest. There are few ways to achieve the goal but there is usually only one optimal way to do the job. This efficiently relates to micromanagement.
Re more cities: we need one ballast city to get the iron in its radius. We would be better of without additional cities as noted by Kuningas also. The map is indeed extremely cruel. I hope we can capture Babylon and Zimbabwe and rush Palace there with the help of a leader. Then, leave only Persepolis to guard iron colony and build our core around these other cities. Area around Teno looks nice also.
Re yellow dot: It might be a decent place but the city would be corrupt. It would be not a good idea to have it as one of our 5 cities.
Re worker in Teno: This is a big waste of military. First, we could have whipped a unit there with that population which was used for worker. Second, we need a spear to guard that worker. Thus, we are minus 2 units and trying to improve a hopelessly corrupt city. We must strike constantly as Babylon and Zulu so that they cannot expand normally. Pillage tiles, attack exposed military, capture settlers and other things.
Re Literature against Map Making: We are playing AW game. Libraries can wait. We need galleys to deliver the military to its destination. This is suggested by map shape. Also, Great Lighthouse is a good thing to have. AIs are very retarded on Regent and there would be no problem of discovering Literature and building Great Library. Also, with few Immortals we would be in great shape is we can capture Great Library from AI to get to tech parity. To get to Great Library we need Map Making. We can then turn off research completely to have some cash for upgrades.
Re finishing Babylon and Zulu: This certainly can be done with 10 Immortals and accurate play.
Re settler from Teno: This looks very unsupported to me. Settler from Teno to go all the way north or settler around the area? For some ballast city? Instead of settler, we can pop-rush 3 20-shield units and build 2 (warrior and archer) during this time.

@Scoutsout. Re rax in Pasargadae: Sending now veteran units south is not a good idea. By the time they get there, we would be able to build Immortals and transport them by galleys much faster.
Re workers: see above discussion with Ivan. Same point with forest chop. BTW, we need temple in Persepolis. This build looks insane but it would be very nice to have it there. In general, I do not like archer rush. We have iron and other options. Archer rush is used mainly to get the iron from the rivals. Also, all these shields invested in archers are better be used for improvements and warriors which then can be upgraded to Immortals.
Re granary: OK, sorry for misunderstanding. On the other hand, Persepolis would be size 3 now and we may use additional cash and shields from that. Overall, it makes a little difference indeed. Couple of gold here, couple there, less citizens for 4 turns, etc. It is just not optimal but we will survive.
Re worker at Teno: See above discussion with Ivan.
Re science and whipping: You do have to be accurate with these things. Science rate can jump as a result of tile assignment to citizens and population growth as well as discoveries of other civilizations in between turns. Therefore, it is better to set it at 100% for one turns and decrease on the next turn to minimum required. Whipping on Regent is easy and increased city size does not bite at all. In some really brutal case, we can play with luxury rate. We should discuss this or you can read the Cracker’s article to make the things clear. There are also other strategy articles on the “art of whipping”. Micromanagement and improvement of tiles by workers is the key to success.
Re units scattered: These units were scouting for Zulu and moving to Babylon.
Re scientist: The only citizen in Teno was unhappy and this scientist did accelerate our research to Alphabet by 1 turn overall. I checked my save and it was possible to put him for farming on that particular turn as I have written in discussion after my turns.
Re settler in Teno: See above discussion with Ivan.

Very nice and interesting discussion indeed.

Ok now I am confused. What excatly do you want me to do in my turns.

@Akots: I have read your posts (which are more like lectures). I have read Cracker's opening moves site numerous times, as well as Babylon's Diety Settlers (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_deity_settlers.shtml) by Bamspeedy.

There is a fundamental difference between those opening strategies and ours: Expansion. Granaries are most powerful in two types of cities: Settler Factories (which we don't need, since we are limited to 5 cities) and productive cities with fresh water that can grow to size 12 without an aqueduct. As it stands, our 2 core cities cannot grow beyond size 6 until we get Construction. Granted, the will grow faster with granaries, and create a few more opportunities for whipping, but at a cost of gpt maintenance in those core cities. The notion that regular units are sufficient in an "Always War" game is something that simply does not make sense to me.

Re: "Ballast City" We could also secure Iron with a colony...

Re: Galleys. Do you disagree with me (and Ivan) that we should pursue literature before map reading? Even if you do think we should pursue map reading before literature, please consider the following:

1) How many turns it will take us to get the tech
2) How many turns it will take us to build the galleys
2a) How many shields the galleys will cost, versus putting those shields into ground combat units.
3) How the immortals who can't find a space on the boat are going to get south
4) With a settler headed south towards the choke point costing us 2 gpt while he is moving, how much gold would you save if he can make that trip in 3 turns as opposed to 12-15....

Some would take your comment re: "Playing Style" as an affront, and the general tone of your posts is that of one lecturing to a complete neophyte to the game.

I close with 2 questions:
1) Will you accept any of my ideas or input into any discussion?
2) If your answer to #1 is no, would you prefer that I simply bow out of this game now?

(Edit: added "2a" to list above...)

Originally posted by conehead234
Ok now I am confused. What excatly do you want me to do in my turns.

Kill them all!! Zulu and Babylon!!

Seriously, IMO, we need to improve land around Persepolis and Pasargadae rather than building the highway. And try to keep alive our units on the frontline killing some enemies at the same time. Attack only units in the open and make war with small SOD protected by spear. May be strike Ur or try to get through it to Zulu territory for some pillaging. Mostly to stop expansion of AI before we finish them with Immortals. May be a settler from Persepolis to get the iron and increase unit support for the moment. And MP in all cities. Regular warriors should be OK for this.

Don't know what to do with worker near Teno. May be chop some forest for military there. Or build a road to iron in that area, then build colony and whip an Immortal in Teno. Research apparently at maximum to MapMaking.

Edited: Cross-posted with scousout. Need some time to reply. But your ideas are of interest and we might want to discuss them for mutual benefit.

For many reason we need barraks in Teno. The only way we can build it just whip. Can we do "double whiping Loophole"
There is nothing in rules about that. I mean: set spear, whip, swich to barracks, whip again. The differens with "normal" whiping is 2 Labors will lost vs 3. The rools about Whippin Lophole only says:
"Whipping Loophole": When cities become so unhappy that they cannot sustain a single content face, it should be impossible to wring any more forced labor out of them. Yet there are still ways to do so, and these are all exploits. The most well known is that of adding workers to size 1 specialist-only cities to keep on whipping them."

That would be a kind of short-rushing.
It doesn't seem against the rules to me, unless of course you whip so hard and so often that you need to violate rule 7.

Originally posted by I. Larkin
For many reason we need barraks in Teno. The only way we can build it just whip. Can we do "double whiping Loophole"
There is nothing in rules about that. I mean: set spear, whip, swich to barracks, whip again. The differens with "normal" whiping is 2 Labors will lost vs 3. The rools about Whippin Lophole only says:
"Whipping Loophole": When cities become so unhappy that they cannot sustain a single content face, it should be impossible to wring any more forced labor out of them. Yet there are still ways to do so, and these are all exploits. The most well known is that of adding workers to size 1 specialist-only cities to keep on whipping them." That last bit you spoke of is a "Pop Rushing" exploit; making workers somewhere else, and adding them to corrupt cities for the sole purpose of whipping. The "double-whipping" exploit dealt with the way whipped citizens were "rounded down". If an improvement only needed 39 shields to complete, you could "Whip 2", but it would be rounded down to 1. I believe the first type of rushing is against the rules, and the second type was fixed in one of the bug patches, but I'm not 100% sure on the patch.

"Short Rushing" is rushing an improvement, and then switching the build queue to something more expensive - and can be used with cash-rushing as well. Whipping a Spearman and then switching to Barracks would be an example. Short-rushing in Tenochtitlan might be good, if we want a barracks there.

Some thoughts:

On Tenochtitlan - we could let Tenochtitlan build a warrior (or spear) which would act as an MP to make a content citizen. This might help with pop rushing (Tenochtitlan could produce a warrior in 10 turns with an empty shield bin).

On "the highway" - having 2 luxuries hooked up to all cities will add a second happy citizen in every city, giving us greater freedom to whip...

Edit: something else we could do in Tenochtitlan - let it build 9 shields towards a warrior and one turn before it's done, switch to spear/archer and whip 1 citizen to complete...

Originally posted by conehead234
Ok now I am confused. What excatly do you want me to do in my turns.
OK. My suggesions are
First of all irrigat cow near Teno. It will grow each 5 turns. Do MMg to ensure that when it will grow. Continue then our highway. I can choose westcoast-forest, rather then hiils route, it will be faster.
Change Barraks at Parsagrad to setler. With MMg you may save 2 foods and get it at the same turn. Then Worker->Barracks with forest cut. Or barracks sraight - up to you. Also, up to you to deside about next City. It may be any of my red dots or Scoutsout yellow dot.
Worker at north: I think one have to continue highway to south, another improve grasland near Persepol. Up to you to build colony on Iron to start Immortals instead of Archers.
Send troops south. It will also protect Settler-worker on it's way to south.
War difficult to say. Things will depend on battale of Ur. Up to you to deside what to do at any case.
Good luck!

Originally posted by scoutsout


On Tenochtitlan - we could let Tenochtitlan build a warrior (or spear) which would act as an MP to make a content citizen. This might help with pop rushing (Tenochtitlan could produce a warrior in 10 turns with an empty shield bin).

On "the highway" - having 2 luxuries hooked up to all cities will add a second happy citizen in every city, giving us greater freedom to whip...

Edit: something else we could do in Tenochtitlan - let it build 9 shields towards a warrior and one turn before it's done, switch to spear/archer and whip 1 citizen to complete...
Bit confused, way we need non-vet units? Or you mean barracks first?
I am sure, we need this highway. The problem is how to get an aggreement from other team members? this highway is our "small wonder" as it need many turns.
How many workers we have to send to do that?
Re: Edit. Do not understand, what you mean...

@Ivan. Well, if you put a small wonder flag on this highway, it may be of interest just out of curiosity. It would take about 50 turns to finish it. One worker can go for it from the north and another returns to Persepolis. Persepolis can be size 6 city working 4 mined grasslands and 2 mined plains for total of 10 shields/turn or more depending of what is under the second forest. It would be better to have another city near iron. Even though it would have slow growth, still we can use some unit support and production.

@Scoutsout. IMO, if you want other players to play the game like you want, try to persuade them with reasonable points and arguments showing the advantages of suggested strategies. Some or your comments make sense but some others do not. I'm trying to explain why they do not yet your persist they do but you don't argue with mine comments against your suggestions. Also, your intention to quit the team is looking like blackmail to me. :)

Originally posted by I. Larkin
... this highway is our "small wonder" as it need many turns.
How many workers we have to send to do that? Ivan - you absolutely "hit the nail on the head" - this highway is indeed a "small wonder" at this stage of the game. Excellent analogy. I put together a little graphic to help us analyze this proposed "small wonder". (The city site noted is only for this example - the city does not have to go there...)

The blue numbers show "worker turns" while the red numbers show "actual turns". On open terrain, two workers can move to a new tile in 1 turn, and complete a new length of road the next turn (2 turns total). Since each worker working alone would take 2 turns to build the same road, this represents a total of 6 "worker" turns.

This highway will consume a total of 54 Worker turns, which is expensive. However, they will complete this road 16 turns from this turn. To put this into perspective, we are presently 16 turns from Writing.

Think about it. About the time we get Writing, we can have this highway completed, and bring the full weight of our military to bear against the Babylonians and Zulu - long before we have the tech to build galleys. It is a big investment, true. But I think it has tremendous potential.

Edit: On the city site - the city site does not have to go there - it's just there to show that roading the city site is not needed, because the roads will be "built" when the city is founded.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tm_akots_persian_highway.jpg

Originally posted by akots
@Scoutsout. IMO, if you want other players to play the game like you want, try to persuade them with reasonable points and arguments showing the advantages of suggested strategies. Apparently we cross-posted. Have a look at my analysis of the highway and let me know what you think. Some or your comments make sense but some others do not. I'm trying to explain why they do not yet your persist they do but you don't argue with mine comments against your suggestions. Okay - let's work on the communicatiing a little better then. I think both of us are making suggestions that don't make sense to the other. I didn't realize the granary in Pasargarde played to a whipping strategy you had in mind - and I went for early shields at some points where you wanted growth. For working against your strategy, I apologize. Also, your intention to quit the team is looking like blackmail to me. :) Not at all. If you don't like my ideas, that's fine - as long as you look at them. For a minute there it looked like this was taking the approach of "Play My Way", and I simply didn't think that would be much fun. Since you seem to be open to at least looking at some things, I'm more than happy to stick around. In some of your posts you said some things that I interpreted as taking a certain tone. I'm going to forget about those things and chalk it up to the "language barrier". (Your English is much better than my Russian...)

Let me ask everybody what kind of game we are playing?
I think everybody agree that we ar playing AW+5CC variant, but it may also be
(a) AW+5CC+RCB rules and (b) AW+5CC+RCB rules + Double Win Conditions.
I think, it is time to decide. Many of our decisions based on our intuitive understanding of final goal, so better to do it asap. To make our opinions more precise I can introduce 5 grades: Not, may be not, may be, may be yes, yes. My initial suggestion was (a)-may be yes, (b) may be not. I am uncertain now about (a), but think that (b) is no. With our slow research rate any other win condition than Conquest looks very remote, if accessible at all. If we will go to (b) variant it will take at least 5000 years (3 month of real time) and I am not sure that we want to stay in the game that long.

Originally posted by scoutsout
Ivan - you absolutely "hit the nail on the head" - this highway is indeed a "small wonder" at this stage of the game. Excellent analogy. I put together a little graphic to help us analyze this proposed "small wonder". (The city site noted is only for this example - the city does not have to go there...)

The blue numbers show "worker turns" while the red numbers show "actual turns". On open terrain, two workers can move to a new tile in 1 turn, and complete a new length of road the next turn (2 turns total). Since each worker working alone would take 2 turns to build the same road, this represents a total of 6 "worker" turns.

This highway will consume a total of 54 Worker turns, which is expensive. However, they will complete this road 16 turns from this turn. To put this into perspective, we are presently 16 turns from Writing.

Think about it. About the time we get Writing, we can have this highway completed, and bring the full weight of our military to bear against the Babylonians and Zulu - long before we have the tech to build galleys. It is a big investment, true. But I think it has tremendous potential.

Edit: On the city site - the city site does not have to go there - it's just there to show that roading the city site is not needed, because the roads will be "built" when the city is founded.


Exelent analysis IMO!
Few things about practical realization.
1) Worker near Teno have to irrigate Cow first, than continue higway. Teno will grow each 5 turns than and generate worker each 10 turns. 2 workers will build Highway from south and one from north. I thing we need 1 north worker to improve grasslands near Persepol-Parsagrad, chop forest ets.
2) We can build City at the North Red Dot place, as on my picture. Moreover, IMHO we should do it as soon as possible.
The best is to swap barracks at Parsagrad to Settler.
It will be decent "low" corrupt size 4 City, after Library it will hook Iron and Fur and will be exelent at our GA.
3)I'd make route straght to north near west coast. It will take the same time, but "prepare" forest if we build yellow dot City.
I will calculate turns next post.

Originally posted by I. Larkin
Exelent analysis IMO!
Few things about practical realization.
1) Worker near Teno have to irrigate Cow first, than continue higway. Teno will grow each 5 turns than and generate worker each 10 turns. 2 workers will build Highway from south and one from north. I thing we need 1 north worker to improve grasslands near Persepol-Parsagrad, chop forest ets.
2) We can build City at the North Red Dot place, as on my picture. Moreover, IMHO we should do it as soon as possible.
The best is to swap barracks at Parsagrad to Settler.
It will be decent "low" corrupt size 4 City, after Library it will hook Iron and Fur and will be exelent at our GA. Thanks for the kind words.

On #1: Irrigating the cow would give us a good worker factory, and increase population for future whipping.... consider making another worker or two (after irrigating the cow) to build the highway south-to-north, instead of north-to-south... What do you think? Akots? What do you think?

#2: Looks like a logical place on the road... but it lacks food, and would need a cultural improvement to get iron.... Might have to make a colony to get iron... but that city site looks good for building units if we can get the population to 4...

I did calculation, it appears that even "1 worker from North and 1 from south" variant it will take 22 turns. Not a big deal for "small wonder" that gives one more Citizen happy! Also it will well before MapMaking.

Originally posted by scoutsout
... Since you seem to be open to at least looking at some things, I'm more than happy to stick around. In some of your posts you said some things that I interpreted as taking a certain tone. I'm going to forget about those things and chalk it up to the "language barrier". (Your English is much better than my Russian...)

Thanks, I'm honored. :)

Ok. I will play tomorrow. I been busy with easter stuff. I will probably mainly work on improving our cities and the highway.

Originally posted by akots
Thanks, I'm honored. :) Well... I'm glad you're honored...and I hope you caught the apology for messing up the granary in Pasargarde...

As you can tell... Ivan and I have been kicking this "Route 66 Small Wonder" thing around a bit, and we've got a teammate ready to play... so what do you think, does the highway look possible to you?

First I will irrigate the cow near teno. Then I will build a settler and settle on either the red or yellow dot. Finally I will try to take out Ur. And all while doing this build Route 66.

Originally posted by conehead234
First I will irrigate the cow near teno. Then I will build a settler and settle on either the red or yellow dot. Finally I will try to take out Ur. And all while doing this build Route 66. I could be wrong, but I think Ivan was suggesting we settle the red and the yellow dot...

Seriously - I know all this reading and ... "discussion" has probably not been fun for you while waiting to play your turns. Your patience is commendable conehead.

I could be wrong, but I think Ivan was suggesting we settle the red and the yellow dot...

Ok which dot should I settle first? I think maybe the red.

Your patience is commendable conehead.

Thanks

Originally posted by conehead234
Ok which dot should I settle first? I think maybe the red. Barring any objection from Akots, I'd say the red looks good too... Good luck against the Babbling Bowmen! (Fingers crossed)

Originally posted by scoutsout


On #1: Irrigating the cow would give us a good worker factory, and increase population for future whipping.... consider making another worker or two (after irrigating the cow) to build the highway south-to-north, instead of north-to-south... What do you think? Akots? What do you think?

#2: Looks like a logical place on the road... but it lacks food, and would need a cultural improvement to get iron.... Might have to make a colony to get iron... but that city site looks good for building units if we can get the population to 4...
#1 The optimal will be 2 Workers from south and 1 worker from north. Third worker from Teno can start road to battelfield...
#2 I consider to move Red Dot to NE, to hook Iron without Colony. The problem is that it will size 4 only 4 turns after Library. (We don't need Temple in size 4 City).

Originally posted by conehead234
First I will irrigate the cow near teno. Then I will build a settler and settle on either the red or yellow dot. Finally I will try to take out Ur. And all while doing this build Route 66.
Exelent. Red dot only, where I draw we will build yellow later.
(Swap Barrcks to Settler, do MMg in all Cityes Teno - max food, other- optimal as you will see). Kill barb. camp at North. Move troops from north to south.
Good luck at Ur!

Let me ask everybody what kind of game we are playing?
I think everybody agree that we are playing AW+5CC variant, but it may also be
(a) AW+5CC+RCB rules and (b) AW+5CC+RCB rules + Double Win Conditions.
I think, it is time to decide. Many of our decisions based on our intuitive understanding of final goal, so better to do it asap. To make our opinions more precise I can introduce 5 grades: Not, may be not, may be, may be yes, yes. My initial suggestion was (a)-may be yes, (b) may be not. I am uncertain now about (a), but think that (b) is no. With our slow research rate any other win condition than Conquest looks very remote, if accessible at all. If we will go to (b) variant it will take at least 5000 years (3 month of real time) and I am not sure that we want to stay in the game that long.

Discussion.
It was difficult discussion but we settle somehow…
Here are some thoughts about future discussions. I think when player get *.sav file the most active participants should be player, pre-player and post-player. Pre-player always have an idea for 10-20 turns ahead when he plays and want their realization; he/she may be annoyed when player crush his ideas. Post-player also expect that he will get “something good” to play. It would be nice if pre-player submit his thoughts about what to do next 10 turns and post-player after looking that and *.sav file submit his suggestions about what he want to get reasonably. If all three (player, pre-player and post-player) disagree with each other they can discuss things before… I think, player reserve his rights to play the way he wants his 10 turns, but really good progress might be if chain is consistent at least at three points (thirty turns). Also we should somehow decide about how to discuss our general strategy. Most of our decisions an intuitive and discussion should reveal logistics of this decisions.
Finally we decide about Highway 66 (22 turns project) but there are many other things to decide ahead. We almost decide that Literacy first, Map-Making second but very soon we will have to decide about Immortals: when and how to get them, how many, when they start to fight and how we should spend our GA. Next strategically important question is wonders, but it can wait till we get elite unit.
I intentionally repeat first, more general part we have to decide…

I agree build the highway.

I disagree, Map Making has to research first then Literature. We may consider Great Lighthouse build at same stage.

Preturn- MM cities. Change Persepolis to a settler.
IT-Bowman on the mountian attacks our archer the bowman is red-lined but our archer loses.
1- Decide to attack Ur with our surviving archer and....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM1-akots-raze_Ur.JPG

Start to Irrigate cow near Teno. road completed
IT- archer fends off attack by the bowman on the mountian, promotes to vet3/4.
2- Send the archer south. Kill barb camp up north.
IT- a barb appears on top of the iron near teno.
3- warrior in the desert near teno NW. Irrigating finished. start Route 66. Route 66 started from the north.
IT- 2 barbs more toward teno.
4- Knock off a barb warrior south of teno. No damage. Route 66 continues to be built. Archer continues toward Bablyon.
IT-Barb is in striking distance to Teno, Pasargadae rax->Archer.
5- Kill barb with regular warrior from Teno. lose 1 HP now 2/3. kill barb. 3/4 Archer into Bablyon territory. Hire an clown so teno doesn't riot.
IT-Persepolis settler->archer.
6- Warrior back to Teno. Clown fired. Settler moves south along a stretch of Route 66. Bablyon is defended by a vet bowman. Decide to pillage the mined and roaded grassland.
IT-Regular bowman attack our 3/4 archer by Bablyon, archer wins, is now 2/4. Zulu archer appears. 2 tiles SE. A barb appears by our spear/worker pair near teno.
7-Fortify spear. workers starts roading. Settler on red dot. will settle next turn. Take out another barb camp south of teno.
IT- Barb dies attacking our spear. Spear now 2/3. Teno worker->archer.
8- Worker moves to join the spear/worker pair. Settle Route 66 Rest Stop. Set to worker. Pillage road near Bablyon.
IT-nada
9-Movement. Workers in the south are at the first mountian.
IT-Our archer near Bablyon is slayed by a bowman. Pasargadae archer->archer.
10- workers continue to work. Wip archer in Teno.

An archer is due in teno next turn. We can connect the iron now that Persepolis's borders have expanded. Route 66 will be finished soon. Where the spear and warrior are is where the workers are. Teno should be a wipping factory. Every time it grows have a archer ready to be wipped. We don't end Military police yet so send all built military units south.

Score: 103

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm1akots-1475_bc.sav)

Here is an update on Route 66

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM-akots-Route_66_1475_BC.JPG

All Hail Conehead, Conqueror of the Babbling City of UR! :hammer: Awesome! :thumbsup:

What do you guys think about this - while our archer (or archer/spear combo) takes out that barbarian camp:

1) we build one veteran warrior and keep him close to home or along the highway for barb control

2) build a veteran archer, gather together our 3 archers (the 2 we have now plus one), put them with our spear and go after the Babylonians with a small stack. (Ideally I'd like to have one more archer for this...

If we can take out the Babylonians with Archers... we could focus on building towards a stack of immortals to go after Shaka...

Edit: I just thought of a couple more things:

Hammurabi's Golden Age should be about finished now. With one poorly improved capitol, it will be nearly impossible for him to mount a good counterattack against Tenochtitlan. If we pull our archer back, he will probably let his forward Bowman heal, then go after the barbs that are located somewhere E of the former site of UR. That should give us time to pull together a small stack of archers and go after Babylon in earnest.

Stick a fork in Hammurabi and turn him over, he's almost done.

As well as this game is progressing, I'm starting to agree with Akots on pursuing Map Reading before Literature. I don't think the other civs are on this landmass, and I think we should start thinking about sending Immortals to another island/continent.

My suggestions for short term strategy: Try to take out Babylon with Archers. Build veteran warriors to be upgraded to Immortals later. Send a good number of Immortals (8-10 stack) to Zulu to wreak havoc. Once we have kicked everybody off this continent, we can think about a few spears to colonize the incense and second iron... use our archers for barb control... send Immortals overseas...

analyzing the save.

Originally posted by scoutsout
All Hail Conehead, Conqueror of the Babbling City of UR! :hammer: Awesome! :thumbsup:

What do you guys think about this - while our archer (or archer/spear combo) takes out that barbarian camp:

1) we build one veteran warrior and keep him close to home or along the highway for barb control

2) build a veteran archer, gather together our 3 archers (the 2 we have now plus one), put them with our spear and go after the Babylonians with a small stack. (Ideally I'd like to have one more archer for this...

If we can take out the Babylonians with Archers... we could focus on building towards a stack of immortals to go after Shaka...

Edit: I just thought of a couple more things:

Hammurabi's Golden Age should be about finished now. With one poorly improved capitol, it will be nearly impossible for him to mount a good counterattack against Tenochtitlan. If we pull our archer back, he will probably let his forward Bowman heal, then go after the barbs that are located somewhere E of the former site of UR. That should give us time to pull together a small stack of archers and go after Babylon in earnest.

Stick a fork in Hammurabi and turn him over, he's almost done.

As well as this game is progressing, I'm starting to agree with Akots on pursuing Map Reading before Literature. I don't think the other civs are on this landmass, and I think we should start thinking about sending Immortals to another island/continent.

My suggestions for short term strategy: Try to take out Babylon with Archers. Build veteran warriors to be upgraded to Immortals later. Send a good number of Immortals (8-10 stack) to Zulu to wreak havoc. Once we have kicked everybody off this continent, we can think about a few spears to colonize the incense and second iron... use our archers for barb control... send Immortals overseas...
OK, exelent progress!
1), 2) Our first priority is to control bottelneck near Babilon. I whould send spear+archer there to help our warrior after his combat with barbs. They shoul meet at "safe place" first. It will take 10 turns from now.... It seems to me, however, that this stack not enough to take Babilon. Spear and warrior guarding workers may move south NOW. Guarding is not the same as stay at the same point where workers are. Barbarians will not fall from the sky. When the rest of archers from norht (2-3) come to bottelneck we may think about Babilon.
No more reg units from Teno! We needs barracks there first of all! ITeno can build workers before barracks whiping that will continue our 66 Route south (with one or 2 Colony).
I allreary made a lot of arguments why we need Lit before MMg. Will not repeat it again. Certanly, if you chose MMg I will not swap it to Lit at my turns, but will take as an insult if next player will choose something else then Literacy after MMg.
I think we should workout Iron asap. We can build warrior or 2 meanwhile. We again close to our Unit Limit and need Last City soon. I run a program, where to build City to maximize our research outcome. It gives point near Persepol??? In normal game I would never build City here, but we play very special game IMHO. What do you think?
The last paragaph is not "short term strategy" ...
Real short term: When one worker complete forest send him back to mine grassland or send him improve Parsagrad. 3 worker than finsh Rote 66 at the same time. They vill move north to workout Iron and improuve Persepl - Parsagrad.
I whoud swap worker in 66 Rest to barracks. Grassland+Iron very strong combination. Better let 66 size 2.
Regards, Ivan